Question:

Kevin, It is very common in the trucking industry to pay your truckers as independent contractors. That said,  the types of payments and advances and charges that you will incur are far too complex for you to treat theses contractors as vendors in Quickbooks or in most other accounting software packages. What many companies in the industry do is to treat (For software purposes only) these contractors as employees and pay them through their payroll modules. The only difference being that these individuals should be set up as not being subject to any taxes. Payroll usually has functions that can handle the advances, etc. and still maintain the gross amount paid so you can issue them a 1099 at the end of the year. Thats how some of my clients handle these payments and so does ADP and most other payroll services.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am using the Quickbooks online edition to manage our business.  We utilize independent contractors.  I have some questions regarding advances and certain expenses we incur which are then passed on to the contractor. Do you use a cash-basis (not accrual) accounting? Currently using accrual basis.  Not sure which is best at this point. Some expenses are incurred in one period then paid in the next period. 1.  The contractors are setup as Vendors and the payment account is setup to track as 1099. Am I correct that Quickbooks does not use double-entry accounting? I believe it does. 2.  We give the contractor an advance, then deduct the advance from the next payment. Are you entitled to get a refund of the advance if you don’t actually buy the goods or services from the vendor? It has not come up, but yes.    a.    Is this a 1099 item?    b.    How are the accounts setup? 3.  We incur expenses (shipping charges, supplies, etc.) which are then passed on to the contractors and deducted from their next payments.    a.   Are these 1099 items?    b.   How should these accounts be setup? The contractors are truck drivers.  In order to get paid, they must send the bill of lading to us (they pay this charge).  We then must send the bill of lading to a factoring company (we pay this charge, but charge it back to the driver).  Once we receive payment from the factoring company, we then wire transfer the money (minus fees) to the driver.  We also pass on the wire transfer fee to the driver. We also purchase insurance on their behalf, then deduct the insurance payments. I would like to be able to track how much charges we have incurred, and how much is remaining in each account (advances, insurance, etc.) Thanks, Kevin Hmmm, this sounds a little too cozy a relationship between you and the 1099 ‘vendor.’  Explain in more detail how and why you incur the expenses for the vendor. I understand the IRS is pretty picky about making sure that 1099 contractors are actually contractors and not employees.  If you get audited, they would want to look very carefully at this arrangement you have with your 1099 contractors, with an eye toward reclassifying them as employees. I hope this is enough information.  TIA Kevin p.s.  I am NOT an accountant.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kevin, It is very common in the trucking industry to pay your truckers as independent contractors. That said,  the types of payments and advances and charges that you will incur are far too complex for you to treat theses contractors as vendors in Quickbooks or in most other accounting software packages. What many companies in the industry do is to treat (For software purposes only) these contractors as employees and pay them through their payroll modules. The only difference being that these individuals should be set up as not being subject to any taxes. Payroll usually has functions that can handle the advances, etc. and still maintain the gross amount paid so you can issue them a 1099 at the end of the year. Thats how some of my clients handle these payments and so does ADP and most other payroll services.

Thanks, I’ll look into it. Kevin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kevin, It is very common in the trucking industry to pay your truckers as independent contractors. That said,  the types of payments and advances and charges that you will incur are far too complex for you to treat theses contractors as vendors in Quickbooks or in most other accounting software packages. What many companies in the industry do is to treat (For software purposes only) these contractors as employees and pay them through their payroll modules. The only difference being that these individuals should be set up as not being subject to any taxes. Payroll usually has functions that can handle the advances, etc. and still maintain the gross amount paid so you can issue them a 1099 at the end of the year.

I shudder when I read "for software purposes only". What a business environment when we have to modify how we run our businesses in order to fit into the constraints of the software. If anyone wants to provide me with what they consider to be the ideal specs for this type of contract situations, I’ll be glad to configure a Gratis Application and post it on our web site www.gestalt.com for free download. Wolfgang Rochow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thats how some of my clients handle these payments and so does ADP and most other payroll services. I am using the Quickbooks online edition to manage our business.  We utilize independent contractors.  I have some questions regarding advances and certain expenses we incur which are then passed on to the contractor. Do you use a cash-basis (not accrual) accounting? Currently using accrual basis.  Not sure which is best at this point. Some expenses are incurred in one period then paid in the next period. 1.  The contractors are setup as Vendors and the payment account is setup to track as 1099. Am I correct that Quickbooks does not use double-entry accounting? I believe it does. 2.  We give the contractor an advance, then deduct the advance from the next payment. Are you entitled to get a refund of the advance if you don’t actually buy the goods or services from the vendor? It has not come up, but yes.    a.    Is this a 1099 item?    b.    How are the accounts setup? 3.  We incur expenses (shipping charges, supplies, etc.) which are then passed on to the contractors and deducted from their next payments.    a.   Are these 1099 items?    b.   How should these accounts be setup? The contractors are truck drivers.  In order to get paid, they must send the bill of lading to us (they pay this charge).  We then must send the bill of lading to a factoring company (we pay this charge, but charge it back to the driver).  Once we receive payment from the factoring company, we then wire transfer the money (minus fees) to the driver.  We also pass on the wire transfer fee to the driver. We also purchase insurance on their behalf, then deduct the insurance payments. I would like to be able to track how much charges we have incurred, and how much is remaining in each account (advances, insurance, etc.) Thanks, Kevin Hmmm, this sounds a little too cozy a relationship between you and the 1099 ‘vendor.’  Explain in more detail how and why you incur the expenses for the vendor. I understand the IRS is pretty picky about making sure that 1099 contractors are actually contractors and not employees.  If you get audited, they would want to look very carefully at this arrangement you have with your 1099 contractors, with an eye toward reclassifying them as employees. I hope this is enough information.  TIA Kevin p.s.  I am NOT an accountant.

Response:

I am using the Quickbooks online edition to manage our business.  We utilize independent contractors.  I have some questions regarding advances and certain expenses we incur which are then passed on to the contractor. 1.  The contractors are setup as Vendors and the payment account is setup to track as 1099. 2.  We give the contractor an advance, then deduct the advance from the next payment.     a.    Is this a 1099 item?     b.    How are the accounts setup? 3.  We incur expenses (shipping charges, supplies, etc.) which are then passed on to the contractors and deducted from their next payments.     a.   Are these 1099 items?     b.   How should these accounts be setup? I hope this is enough information.  TIA Kevin p.s.  I am NOT an accountant.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am using the Quickbooks online edition to manage our business.  We utilize independent contractors.  I have some questions regarding advances and certain expenses we incur which are then passed on to the contractor. Do you use a cash-basis (not accrual) accounting? Currently using accrual basis.  Not sure which is best at this point. Some expenses are incurred in one period then paid in the next period. 1.  The contractors are setup as Vendors and the payment account is setup to track as 1099. Am I correct that Quickbooks does not use double-entry accounting? I believe it does. Yes it definitely does.  When you make an entry the program automatically

debits or credits a contra account. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2.  We give the contractor an advance, then deduct the advance from the next payment. Are you entitled to get a refund of the advance if you don’t actually buy the goods or services from the vendor? It has not come up, but yes.    a.    Is this a 1099 item?    b.    How are the accounts setup?

It looks like a 1099 item if they are independent contractors.  You would charge as expense any advances or you could charge them to prepaid expenses and reverse the prepayment to actual expense later.    3.  We incur expenses (shipping charges, supplies, etc.) which are then passed on to the contractors and deducted from their next payments.    a.   Are these 1099 items?    b.   How should these accounts be setup?

==The account used to charged contractor expense would reduce the amount recorded for the next payment.  However it would be best to record the full expense, then make a credit to the contractor’s expense for the amount deducted so there would be a clear audit trail. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The contractors are truck drivers.  In order to get paid, they must send the bill of lading to us (they pay this charge).  We then must send the bill of lading to a factoring company (we pay this charge, but charge it back to the driver).  Once we receive payment from the factoring company, we then wire transfer the money (minus fees) to the driver.  We also pass on the wire transfer fee to the driver. We also purchase insurance on their behalf, then deduct the insurance payments. I would like to be able to track how much charges we have incurred, and how much is remaining in each account (advances, insurance, etc.) Thanks, Kevin Hmmm, this sounds a little too cozy a relationship between you and the 1099 ‘vendor.’  Explain in more detail how and why you incur the expenses for the vendor. I understand the IRS is pretty picky about making sure that 1099 contractors are actually contractors and not employees.  If you get audited, they would want to look very carefully at this arrangement you have with your 1099 contractors, with an eye toward reclassifying them as employees.

If they own their own trucks and are independent of any supervision, then they are contractors.  Otherwise they are employees.  It sounds more like an independent contractor, but there may be some other aspects that would override. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope this is enough information.  TIA Kevin p.s.  I am NOT an accountant.

Response:

I am using the Quickbooks online edition to manage our business.  We utilize independent contractors.  I have some questions regarding advances and certain expenses we incur which are then passed on to the contractor. Do you use a cash-basis (not accrual) accounting?

Currently using accrual basis.  Not sure which is best at this point.  Some expenses are incurred in one period then paid in the next period. 1.  The contractors are setup as Vendors and the payment account is setup to track as 1099. Am I correct that Quickbooks does not use double-entry accounting?

I believe it does. 2.  We give the contractor an advance, then deduct the advance from the next payment. Are you entitled to get a refund of the advance if you don’t actually buy the goods or services from the vendor?

It has not come up, but yes.    a.    Is this a 1099 item?    b.    How are the accounts setup? 3.  We incur expenses (shipping charges, supplies, etc.) which are then passed on to the contractors and deducted from their next payments.    a.   Are these 1099 items?    b.   How should these accounts be setup?

The contractors are truck drivers.  In order to get paid, they must send the bill of lading to us (they pay this charge).  We then must send the bill of lading to a factoring company (we pay this charge, but charge it back to the driver).  Once we receive payment from the factoring company, we then wire transfer the money (minus fees) to the driver.  We also pass on the wire transfer fee to the driver. We also purchase insurance on their behalf, then deduct the insurance payments. I would like to be able to track how much charges we have incurred, and how much is remaining in each account (advances, insurance, etc.) Thanks, Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmm, this sounds a little too cozy a relationship between you and the 1099 ‘vendor.’  Explain in more detail how and why you incur the expenses for the vendor. I understand the IRS is pretty picky about making sure that 1099 contractors are actually contractors and not employees.  If you get audited, they would want to look very carefully at this arrangement you have with your 1099 contractors, with an eye toward reclassifying them as employees. I hope this is enough information.  TIA Kevin p.s.  I am NOT an accountant.

Response:

I am using the Quickbooks online edition to manage our business.  We utilize independent contractors.  I have some questions regarding advances and certain expenses we incur which are then passed on to the contractor.

Do you use a cash-basis (not accrual) accounting? 1.  The contractors are setup as Vendors and the payment account is setup to track as 1099.

Am I correct that Quickbooks does not use double-entry accounting? 2.  We give the contractor an advance, then deduct the advance from the next payment.

Are you entitled to get a refund of the advance if you don’t actually buy the goods or services from the vendor?    a.    Is this a 1099 item?    b.    How are the accounts setup? 3.  We incur expenses (shipping charges, supplies, etc.) which are then passed on to the contractors and deducted from their next payments.    a.   Are these 1099 items?    b.   How should these accounts be setup?

Hmmm, this sounds a little too cozy a relationship between you and the 1099 ‘vendor.’  Explain in more detail how and why you incur the expenses for the vendor. I understand the IRS is pretty picky about making sure that 1099 contractors are actually contractors and not employees.  If you get audited, they would want to look very carefully at this arrangement you have with your 1099 contractors, with an eye toward reclassifying them as employees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope this is enough information.  TIA Kevin p.s.  I am NOT an accountant.

Response:

Question:

*drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes

You bloody ocker! You did it! Too wucking cool! Paula

Response:

Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes

This is sweet music to my ears. You’re doing it Frampy! Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  One week, five days, 18 hours, 35 minutes and 41 seconds. 255 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $44.71. Life saved: 21 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

Way to go Frampy..this is one good job u have done…im right behind u and watching u has helped me too i just wanted u to know that by u staying smoke free it helped me to also…so big hug to u..(thinking both my boys are older than you)….hehehe…….Five days, 10 hours, 10 minutes and 17 seconds. 216 cigarettes not smoked, saving $33.19. Life saved: 18 hours, 0 minutes. Good luck on ur weekend…..hugs Patsy

Response:

Frampy: … Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds.

… Pretty spiffy, Frampy! Congratulations —– Maddie, 4 months

Response:

Thanks Paul. Wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be.  Having a real life quit buddy near by helps heaps – especially when it’s your normal drinking/smoking buddy – we’re pressuring each other not to smoke, so it’s working like a dream so far.  Friday & Saturday night will be a bit of a tester, going out for drinks both nights as a mini celebration of the end of my life (turning 30 next monday! Waaaaaaaa), not gonna smoke but – wanna be my first B’day in about 12 years that I haven’t smoked on. Frampy (hiding from all the old people – i.e. over 30’s, who will no doubt smash him about for these comments)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Way to go Frampy, FWD is one of the hardest milestones as you know, so be proud that you made it. Paul D Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Thanks Paul. Wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be.  Having a real life quit buddy near by helps heaps – especially when it’s your normal drinking/smoking buddy – we’re pressuring each other not to smoke, so it’s working like a dream so far.  Friday & Saturday night will be a bit of a tester, going out for drinks both nights as a mini celebration of the end of my life (turning 30 next monday! Waaaaaaaa), not gonna smoke but – wanna be my first B’day in about 12 years that I haven’t smoked on. Frampy (hiding from all the old people – i.e. over 30’s, who will no doubt smash him about for these comments)

You poor poor baby!!   You’re *really* over the hill now, Framps…..thank god I’ll always be 27…in my own mind at least…. Happy birthday in advance, btw!!!!!!! Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Way to go Frampy, FWD is one of the hardest milestones as you know, so be proud that you made it. Paul D Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Way to go Frampy, FWD is one of the hardest milestones as you know, so be proud that you made it. Paul D

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Thanks Elle.  It’s feeling more and more doable by the hour now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool meter, Frampy!  Congratulations on your FWD!  You CAN DO THIS! hugs, elle Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Thanks muchly.  Who said I couldn’t last 10 hours without spilling my load (flashing my meter) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well done, Frampers.  FWD is a beauty.  And I find 10 hours to be a fashionable time to be late, anyway.  Well done, mate. Cheers Sue Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Yes I guess so and now I am already through the first half of day 8.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Better late then never!  :-D ~August <snip to Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. <snip

Response:

I sure hope so  Frampalama?  Where do you come up with all these weird variations on my name LMAO

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congratulations, Frampalama Ding Dong!!  That’s awesome news!   Hell week down, it will be smoother sailing from here. DG Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

TYVM.  Had to download Quit Keeper again just to make this post Blooody hell.  Bout time I cleaned up the system though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Computers suck  But your meter is looking mighty fine!  Congrats dude, well on your way!!!! — mc I haven’t lost my mind, It is backed up on disk somewhere. 9M

Response:

Don’t worry – if your tax people are the same as ours, you may find they’ll accept porn in lieu of tax; as long as it’s good stuff.

I reckon it might take Mick Dundee to seperate the frampster from his alt.binaries stuff – the Taxman wouldn’t stand a chance….. Oh…unless Crocodile Dundee went to work for the revenue… steveb – off to check!

Response:

Better late then never!  :-D ~August

<snip to Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19

seconds. <snip

Response:

Well done, Frampers.  FWD is a beauty.  And I find 10 hours to be a fashionable time to be late, anyway.  Well done, mate. Cheers Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Cool meter, Frampy!  Congratulations on your FWD!  You CAN DO THIS! hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Porn safely backed up, thanks for asking.  As for all my tax & accounting figures, well, they’re long gone…. oh well. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! You lose all your porn mate? Tough break!! btw….great meter steveb

Don’t worry – if your tax people are the same as ours, you may find they’ll accept porn in lieu of tax; as long as it’s good stuff. — Succorso OF

Response:

Congratulations, Frampalama Ding Dong!!  That’s awesome news!   Hell week down, it will be smoother sailing from here. DG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Hello all

Computers suck  But your meter is looking mighty fine!  Congrats dude, well on your way!!!! — mc I haven’t lost my mind, It is backed up on disk somewhere. 9M

Response:

Porn safely backed up, thanks for asking.  As for all my tax & accounting figures, well, they’re long gone…. oh well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! You lose all your porn mate? Tough break!! btw….great meter steveb

Response:

Congrats on the FWD for you also

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Job Frampy…I know what you mean about the computer thing it sucks sometimes. Mike One week, 8 hours, 25 minutes and 18 seconds. 220 cigarettes not smoked, saving $44.10. Life saved: 18 hours, 20 minutes. Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

: Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me : to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call : to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to : their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. : what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard : to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded : from scratch Oh I hate it when that happens.  Only times I have had to do that is when I’ve been trying to be a good housekeeper and "maximize efficiency and drive space".  Bastards! : Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at : 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, : and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. : : *drum roll* : : Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. : 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me : A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes : : YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. : : Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along : with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking : Schnit! : : Frampy Whoooohooooooo Frampy!!!!! You got through it without smoking! Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! With hope and heart, Kathleen

Response:

Good Job Frampy…I know what you mean about the computer thing it sucks sometimes. Mike One week, 8 hours, 25 minutes and 18 seconds. 220 cigarettes not smoked, saving $44.10. Life saved: 18 hours, 20 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit!

You lose all your porn mate? Tough break!! btw….great meter steveb

Response:

Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit!

You lose all your porn mate? Tough break!! btw….great meter steveb

Response:

Good Job Frampy…I know what you mean about the computer thing it sucks sometimes. Mike One week, 8 hours, 25 minutes and 18 seconds. 220 cigarettes not smoked, saving $44.10. Life saved: 18 hours, 20 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

: Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me : to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call : to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to : their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. : what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard : to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded : from scratch Oh I hate it when that happens.  Only times I have had to do that is when I’ve been trying to be a good housekeeper and "maximize efficiency and drive space".  Bastards! : Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at : 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, : and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. : : *drum roll* : : Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. : 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me : A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes : : YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. : : Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along : with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking : Schnit! : : Frampy Whoooohooooooo Frampy!!!!! You got through it without smoking! Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! With hope and heart, Kathleen

Response:

Hello all

Computers suck  But your meter is looking mighty fine!  Congrats dude, well on your way!!!! — mc I haven’t lost my mind, It is backed up on disk somewhere. 9M

Response:

Porn safely backed up, thanks for asking.  As for all my tax & accounting figures, well, they’re long gone…. oh well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! You lose all your porn mate? Tough break!! btw….great meter steveb

Response:

Congrats on the FWD for you also

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Job Frampy…I know what you mean about the computer thing it sucks sometimes. Mike One week, 8 hours, 25 minutes and 18 seconds. 220 cigarettes not smoked, saving $44.10. Life saved: 18 hours, 20 minutes. Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Congratulations, Frampalama Ding Dong!!  That’s awesome news!   Hell week down, it will be smoother sailing from here. DG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Porn safely backed up, thanks for asking.  As for all my tax & accounting figures, well, they’re long gone…. oh well. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! You lose all your porn mate? Tough break!! btw….great meter steveb

Don’t worry – if your tax people are the same as ours, you may find they’ll accept porn in lieu of tax; as long as it’s good stuff. — Succorso OF

Response:

Cool meter, Frampy!  Congratulations on your FWD!  You CAN DO THIS! hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Better late then never!  :-D ~August

<snip to Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19

seconds. <snip

Response:

Well done, Frampers.  FWD is a beauty.  And I find 10 hours to be a fashionable time to be late, anyway.  Well done, mate. Cheers Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Don’t worry – if your tax people are the same as ours, you may find they’ll accept porn in lieu of tax; as long as it’s good stuff.

I reckon it might take Mick Dundee to seperate the frampster from his alt.binaries stuff – the Taxman wouldn’t stand a chance….. Oh…unless Crocodile Dundee went to work for the revenue… steveb – off to check!

Response:

TYVM.  Had to download Quit Keeper again just to make this post Blooody hell.  Bout time I cleaned up the system though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Computers suck  But your meter is looking mighty fine!  Congrats dude, well on your way!!!! — mc I haven’t lost my mind, It is backed up on disk somewhere. 9M

Response:

I sure hope so  Frampalama?  Where do you come up with all these weird variations on my name LMAO

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congratulations, Frampalama Ding Dong!!  That’s awesome news!   Hell week down, it will be smoother sailing from here. DG Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Yes I guess so and now I am already through the first half of day 8.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Better late then never!  :-D ~August <snip to Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. <snip

Response:

Thanks muchly.  Who said I couldn’t last 10 hours without spilling my load (flashing my meter) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well done, Frampers.  FWD is a beauty.  And I find 10 hours to be a fashionable time to be late, anyway.  Well done, mate. Cheers Sue Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Thanks Elle.  It’s feeling more and more doable by the hour now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool meter, Frampy!  Congratulations on your FWD!  You CAN DO THIS! hugs, elle Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Way to go Frampy, FWD is one of the hardest milestones as you know, so be proud that you made it. Paul D

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Thanks Paul. Wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be.  Having a real life quit buddy near by helps heaps – especially when it’s your normal drinking/smoking buddy – we’re pressuring each other not to smoke, so it’s working like a dream so far.  Friday & Saturday night will be a bit of a tester, going out for drinks both nights as a mini celebration of the end of my life (turning 30 next monday! Waaaaaaaa), not gonna smoke but – wanna be my first B’day in about 12 years that I haven’t smoked on. Frampy (hiding from all the old people – i.e. over 30’s, who will no doubt smash him about for these comments)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Way to go Frampy, FWD is one of the hardest milestones as you know, so be proud that you made it. Paul D Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Thanks Paul. Wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be.  Having a real life quit buddy near by helps heaps – especially when it’s your normal drinking/smoking buddy – we’re pressuring each other not to smoke, so it’s working like a dream so far.  Friday & Saturday night will be a bit of a tester, going out for drinks both nights as a mini celebration of the end of my life (turning 30 next monday! Waaaaaaaa), not gonna smoke but – wanna be my first B’day in about 12 years that I haven’t smoked on. Frampy (hiding from all the old people – i.e. over 30’s, who will no doubt smash him about for these comments)

You poor poor baby!!   You’re *really* over the hill now, Framps…..thank god I’ll always be 27…in my own mind at least…. Happy birthday in advance, btw!!!!!!! Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Way to go Frampy, FWD is one of the hardest milestones as you know, so be proud that you made it. Paul D Hello all Stupid goddam internet has been screwed all day – let that be a lesson to me to try and clean up unwanted files off my hard drive.  45 Minute phone call to tech support confirmed that my modem was working, I could connect to their server via an IP address, but that the DNS was not being resolved…. what does this mean I hear you ask????? Easy answer is pay some tech bastard to fix it, or reload PC from scratch – being a cheap bastard I have reloaded from scratch Anyhoo… that’s not the main topic of this post.  I was all ready at 11:30pm my time to post my meter, been waiting all f*$king week for this, and of course internet isn’t working… so, albeit it late…. *drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes YAY FWD YAY YAY YAY….. Now, about 5 billion AS3 messages to catch up on, and responde to, along with downloading 5 billion pieces of software again that I need…. Wucking Schnit! Frampy

Response:

Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes

This is sweet music to my ears. You’re doing it Frampy! Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  One week, five days, 18 hours, 35 minutes and 41 seconds. 255 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $44.71. Life saved: 21 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

Way to go Frampy..this is one good job u have done…im right behind u and watching u has helped me too i just wanted u to know that by u staying smoke free it helped me to also…so big hug to u..(thinking both my boys are older than you)….hehehe…….Five days, 10 hours, 10 minutes and 17 seconds. 216 cigarettes not smoked, saving $33.19. Life saved: 18 hours, 0 minutes. Good luck on ur weekend…..hugs Patsy

Response:

Frampy: … Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds.

… Pretty spiffy, Frampy! Congratulations —– Maddie, 4 months

Response:

*drum roll* Frampy has been smoke free for 1 Week, 10 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds. 334 Filthy stinkarettes not smoked during this time (45 per day) , saving me A$118.24. Approximate life saved 1 Day, 3 hours and 50 minutes

You bloody ocker! You did it! Too wucking cool! Paula

Response:

Question:

dave– I knew lots of people travelling in Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos, who got by as cheaply as I was doing ($15/day), and some who got by on less. In my experience, I spend less money when I’m travelling alone. If I’m travelling with a woman, I always spend considerably more money, because we’d stay in nicer guesthouses or bungalows, go out to restaurants alot more, and do more sightseeing. When I’m by myself, I’m content with "basic" accomodation, guesthouse food, and reading, guitar, and chatting up my fellow travellers for entertainment–all cheap activities. You do save money by sharing the room, but usually it’s a more expensive room. During the month that I travelled with my girlfriend, my costs went up at least 50 percent. I don’t regret the fun we had, though. If you were to go to Indonesia, or India, travel would be even cheaper. I only spent $1.50 a night for a very nice room in Ubud in Bali. Food and transport were also cheap. Sumatra and the beautiful Lake Toba area are even cheaper. That area might be deserted now, though. -d – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s interesting reading this, because I just got back from 8 months in Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos, and just finished my trip cost calculations (from bank statements). I ended up spending about 15 USD a day, which I was a bit shocked at. I was aiming for no more than $10. But when you travel around alot (vs. staying in one place for a long time), it costs more. In a new place, it takes a few days to find out how to live there cheaply, and by then you’re thinking about moving on. I would usually eat at the guesthouse or sometimes the market, and stay in cheap but tolerable rooms. Food is alot more expensive on the islands in Thailand, I found, than in the cities, especially beer food. If you get sick, that can be very expensive, so it’s worth spending a little more to eat at a place that’s sanitary. For the places I’ve been recently, Guatemala’s quite cheap (about like Thailand). Mexico’s getting pricey, as is Costa Rica. Laos was very cheap. Cambodia a bit more than Thailand. I last travelled round Asia 15 years ago and I seem to remember

Question:

GET A LIFE

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CHAPTER 1 –             WHAT IS KNOWLEDGE? Just scanned this labyrinth.  Maybe you are confusing knowledge with wisdom? — ~Stu Wiseguy that doesn’t know so much Working definition of knowledge Knowledge is neither data nor information, though it is related to both, but not interchangeable.

Sounds like a computer science text book.

Response:

What is qualification? As in until an arbitrary set of information is qualified to me I won’t bother reading it. Ever read a 100 lines and have the last line say ‘Good thing it was only a joke.’ Me neither. Never will either. Mike Dubbeld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CHAPTER 1 –             WHAT IS KNOWLEDGE? Working definition of knowledge Knowledge is neither data nor information, though it is related to both, but not interchangeable. Can lump together higher-order concepts such as wisdom and insight into knowledge. Data Data is a set of discrete, objective facts about events. In an organizational context, data is most usefully described as structured records of transactions.  Data tells nothing about why and can’t predict. Data by itself has little relevance or purpose. Modem organizations usually store data in some sort of technology system. It is entered into the system by departments such as finance, accounting, and marketing.  Current trend is for data to be somewhat less centralized and available on demand from desktop PCs. Quantitatively, companies evaluate data management in terms of cost (to capture), speed (to retrieve) and capacity (to hold in a system). Qualitative measurements are timeliness (access when needed), relevance (what is needed) and clarity (making sense out of it). Record keeping is at the heart of "data cultures" and effective data management is essential to success as is keeping track of transactions. More data is not always better than less. Too much data can make it harder to identify and make sense of the data that matters. Fundamentally, there is no inherent meaning in data. Data describes only a part of what happened; it provides no judgment or interpretation and no sustainable basis of action. While the raw material of decision making may include data, it cannot tell you what to do. Data says nothing about its own importance or irrelevance. It is essential raw material for the creation of information. Information Information is "data endowed with relevance and purpose" (Drucker). It is a message, usually in the form of a document or an audible or visible communication. It has a sender and receiver. Information is meant to change the way the receiver perceives something, to have an impact on his judgment and behavior.  The receiver, not the sender, decides whether the message he gets is really information – that is, if it truly informs him. Information moves around organizations through hard and soft networks. A hard network has a visible and definite infrastructure, eg post box or email.  A soft network is less formal and visible (ad hoc), eg article marked "FYI". Quantitative measures of information management tend to include connectivity and transactions (numbers of). Qualitative measures measure informativeness and usefulness (new insights, solutions). Information potentially shape the receiver and is organized to some purpose. Data becomes information when its creator adds meaning. We transform data into information by adding value in various ways. Methods:

Question:

    1.  I can’t answer your question but I can tell you what I did. I am brewing with two five gallon Rubbermaid coolers. I have pro-mash but you could do this with a spread sheet if you had a formula. I made no attempt to figure out thermal mass since I knew that those coolers are pretty efficient.  Yesterday I mashed in at 154f which was the temp. I was looking for. I had heated the strike water to 170f and I had measured the water into the tun to be a grain to water ratio of 1.1 qts to 1 lb of grain. I put all the information into the formula and looked to see what promash wanted me to do to get the result I got.  I then fiddled with the value on the thermal mass window to replicate the result that I got.  I came up with .050 – .070.  Pro mash says a good default value is .300.  I have heard those coolers are pretty tight.  2.   Now that said, I am now connected to some other brewers and I am watching them mash.  What I am seeing is dead reckoning.  Big Boss heats up some water usually to 168 or 170 172f and starts mixing grain with water until it "looks right" He doesn’t measure much.   Big Boss takes temp of mash and almost always adds further quantity of hot water.  This hot water has been sitting under the heat while the other mashing has been going on and is now hotter than the original strike temp.  Big Boss may add two or three cups at a time.     Also, it has been my experience that in my system the mash is actually a bit warmer five or six minutes later than it seems at the time you mix it, so I close it up for a few and look again at the temp.     Anyway, that’s what I have seen.  Anyway, I am learning that hitting your temp. is perhaps not as difficult or precise as it might seem when first I tried it.  I have always come out low except once.  I keep a frozen plastic pop bottle handy for cooling the mash without adding water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

Heat about the same volume of water that the mash tun is expected to hold and record its temperature.  Move it to the mash tun in a manner that is similar to how you intend to strike and record its temperature.  The difference between the two temperatures and times the weight of water is its thermal mass IIRC. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

Dan, What units are you using?  Gallons, Quarts, pints, metric I am working hypotheticals with english units and I am getting huge numbers. Could you give an example?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heat about the same volume of water that the mash tun is expected to hold and record its temperature.  Move it to the mash tun in a manner that is similar to how you intend to strike and record its temperature.  The difference between the two temperatures and times the weight of water is its thermal mass IIRC. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

It has been a while since I screwed with this stuff.  Usually thermal mass is expressed in pounds IIRC.  However in brewing, gallons of water is very handy.  I recall calculating that my five gallon cooler had a thermal mass of about 0.15 gallons or 1.25 pounds.  Malt has a specific heat of 0.4 and hence a thermal mass of the same if I understand things. A pound of malt has the thermal mass of 1/21 gallons of water. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan, What units are you using?  Gallons, Quarts, pints, metric I am working hypotheticals with english units and I am getting huge numbers. Could you give an example? Heat about the same volume of water that the mash tun is expected to hold and record its temperature.  Move it to the mash tun in a manner that is similar to how you intend to strike and record its temperature.  The difference between the two temperatures and times the weight of water is its thermal mass IIRC. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

I just happened to be trying to calculate that by experimentation tonight. Heated water to 160F, Dumped in my room temp (80F) 48qt rubbermaid rectangular cooler. at 5min, cracked the lid and stuck in a thermometer. 140F at 20 min, 145F (WTF? temp is RISING?) at 40 min, 152F (no, I don’t have a fire under my cooler) at 60min, 150F. How am I supposed to come up with a strike temp with numbers like this? I think I’ll stick to kettle mashing!

Response:

and stuck in a thermometer. 140F at 20 min, 145F (WTF? temp is RISING?) at 40 min, 152F (no, I don’t have a fire under my cooler) at 60min, 150F. How am I supposed to come up with a strike temp with numbers like this? I think I’ll stick to kettle mashing!

Try 170 degrees and lay off the worrying.  You will be pleasantly surprised at the results and no stirring! — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks! I just happened to be trying to calculate that by experimentation tonight. Heated water to 160F, Dumped in my room temp (80F) 48qt rubbermaid rectangular cooler.

Response:

What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

Question:

Will Sill, You forgot some rights you are very fond of: Since I am over 65 years old I have the following rights: 1.  I have the right to a monthly socialist security check. 2.  I have the right to be provided socialized medicine. 3.  I have the right to pretend that this free ride comes out of the     social security trust fund even though no such fund or money exists except in the minds of my politician friends and liberals like me. 4.  I have the right to pretend that I paid for this even though I have received much much more than I paid. 5.  I have the right to pretend that the gummit owes me and pays these costs even though taxpayers know that they are forced to pay. 6.  I have the right to pretend that young workers owe me this free ride. 7.  I have the right to have my liberal gummit friends steal the money from young workers to provide me my free ride because young people owe me. 8.  I have the right to prevent the young taxpayers from investing their social security taxes for their future because their tax money needs to be used to pay for my free ride. 8 – And last but not least, I have the right to pretend that I am a responsible conservative even though I am a bleeding heart liberal who actually believes that I deserve my free ride. Now tell the truth.  You DO believe that "they" owe you don’t you?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I went back to check my memory and the point I am referring to is shown here http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/indexedEarn.html You will notice that the indexing factor increment varies considerably depending on the condition of the economy. The indexing factor is actually the present worth of $1 earned that year when you have it at year1.  i.e. A dollar paid in 1961 is worth about 7 times a dollar earned today. If this wasn’t done it would be unfair on those who earned a lot when younger and tapered off as they got older. Frederick

I don’t have any problem with that, I agree.  I went back and looked at what I wrote, and I see how the sequence could be misleading.  The steps are: 1.  Present worth each contribution (I believe in most programs they actually present worth the annual earnings. 2.  Calculate the average monthly earnings over 35 years (high 35 years) for most of us 3.  Apply a percentage based on number 3 to determine the monthly payment. Another point of possible confusion is that SS talks about monthly earnings but it really doesn’t make any difference whether you use earnings or contributions as they are tied together by a fixed formula for each year (i.e. maximum contribution and the contribution rate). The only difference is an adjustment to reflect that relationship.  The viability of the system is of course based on the contributions, not people’s earnings, and what most people want to know is how much they contributed in relationship to how much they get.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you have misunderstood my statement. It is a present worth calculation but one which uses a different interest rate for each year depending on the relationship between the cost of living on year 1 and that on the following year. It’s not a present worth calculation using a fixed interest rate. It’s an iterative calculation. In calculus terms it’s calculated incrementally and summated, not by a normal integration. The error in your statement is that there is no averaging involved. Each preceding year is calculated separately and the years are then summated. A different multiplier is applied to the amount paid each year depending on which year it was paid. If you paid in the same amount each year you could use the multiplier for each year and arrive at a final multiplier, but you don’t pay in the same amount each year, so it has to be done iteratively. The same present worth calculation is done on multi year projects where the expenditures vary from one year to the next, but for comparison purposes it must be present worthed to compare them. Clients wouldn’t stand for your averaging technique at all. Averages are to be approached carefully. A man with one foot in a bucket of boiling water and the other in a bucket of ice is on the average quite comfortable. Sometimes you not only have to know what is done, you have to know why it is done. By the way there’s nothing goofy about it, just the response. You asked for it George. Frederick

Well, I did misunderstand because you said "compounded each year."  That sounds like an interest rate was applied.  I have no problem about your idea on present worthing the value of each contribution.  I have no idea how they do, it only that they do it base on the present worth of the value, which is based on the devaluation of the money.  If you made a contribution of $500 in 1955 and the equivalent value today is $2020, that is what they would use.  How they get from $500 to $2020 is not my concern. As for your harangue about no average, that is not what Social Security says.  I have no idea what you are talking about, perhaps you inferred that I meant the earnings were averaged before they were present worthed.  But, it is the present worthed values that are averaged.   Let me state what Social Security says, " A Social security benefit is a percentage of your monthly earnings averaged over X number of years.  If you were born after 1929 the X is 35 years. Sounds to me like my monthly earnings will be averaged over 35 years. I don’t believe any of that is contradictory with my first statement.

Response:

Phillip Morris and Czechoslovakia just showed us the way.  Did you see that news report?  Smoking is BENEFICIAL because it causes people to die off at an earlier age thus saving billions in long term health care costs.  

This has been around since the 80s, he brainchild of Kip Viscusi, a harvard economist. The Tobacco industry actually used it court. Trial attorneys call it "the euthanasia defense. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage’profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

Response:

Hey – I don’t know for sure WHAT the "right number" is – choose your source based on who you want to believe.  

Well this is the closest Mr. Sill, resident expert on everythig, will ever come admitting an error. So I’ll drink to that. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage’profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

Response:

If you paid the maximum Social Security tax from 1937 to 1992 and were 65 in

1992, You would have started working at age 10. Other than that minor problem, you may be right. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage’profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

Response:

SSI stands for Supplemental Security Income and not for Social Security Benefits.  SSI is a welfare program for those whose income is too low and are either aged or disabled.  Another program is SSDI: Social Security Disability Income for those who are disabled but have earned income in the past.  They might get a combination of SSDI and SSI.  Elders may get a combination of SSI and SSB or just one or the other. — DeLores Wilson Hillsboro, OR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The numbers I used are for SSI only and don’t include medicare.  And the ‘92 maximum payment was $1692 (husband and wife using the husband’s contribution).  Medicare is separate from the SSI so combining it doesn’t give a true picture.  What you are really saying  is that the Medicare part is returned very quickly.

Response:

I went back to check my memory and the point I am referring to is shown here http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/indexedEarn.html

Frederic – I am not trying to start an argument but am adding a comment about the specific words used even although the reasoning is similar.   The page you refer to shows how your EARNINGS are indexed for inflation to calculate your benefit.  It has nothing to do about the "amount in the fund" that you talked about in your earlier post: In case it’s been overlooked, it must be remembered that the amount in the fund, on which your SS benefit is based, is an amount which is the sum of each years accrued contribution, compounded annually up to the date when you retire. So the amount on which your pension is based is much greater than the sum of all your payments.

Many financial calculations have been performed to determine a theoretical "present value" or "present worth" of SS contributions based upon yearly CD interest rates or stock marked index gains.  Then, that return has been compared to the SS benefits. However, it is all academic since there in fact, is no fund!  Much of the contributions were spent providing SS to those who first received benefits but contributed little or nothing.  The rest was spent running the government. Since SS is a Pyramid Ponzi scheme based upon the young providing for the old, the financial calculation of present value/worth has no meaning or relevance.  If your grand parents and parents have received SS and medicare, then you are way ahead of the game.  They contributed very little and probably received more than your and their contributions combined.  If not, then you probably could have done better in a private program. All in all, we live in a country that takes care of the old.  Both with a (small?) monthly check and medical care.  To me, it beats the talk I heard from my grand parents about their fear of "poor houses" which really used to exist.  Of course, there are many opinions of right/wrong and fair/unfair.  Sometimes, common ground is hard to find. John

Response:

George, I went back to check my memory and the point I am referring to is shown here http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/indexedEarn.html You will notice that the indexing factor increment varies considerably depending on the condition of the economy. The indexing factor is actually the present worth of $1 earned that year when you have it at year1.  i.e. A dollar paid in 1961 is worth about 7 times a dollar earned today. If this wasn’t done it would be unfair on those who earned a lot when younger and tapered off as they got older. Frederick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you have misunderstood my statement. It is a present worth calculation but one which uses a different interest rate for each year depending on the relationship between the cost of living on year 1 and that on the following year. It’s not a present worth calculation using a fixed interest rate. It’s an iterative calculation. In calculus terms it’s calculated incrementally and summated, not by a normal integration. The error in your statement is that there is no averaging involved. Each preceding year is calculated separately and the years are then summated. A different multiplier is applied to the amount paid each year depending on which year it was paid. If you paid in the same amount each year you could use the multiplier for each year and arrive at a final multiplier, but you don’t pay in the same amount each year, so it has to be done iteratively. The same present worth calculation is done on multi year projects where the expenditures vary from one year to the next, but for comparison purposes it must be present worthed to compare them. Clients wouldn’t stand for your averaging technique at all. Averages are to be approached carefully. A man with one foot in a bucket of boiling water and the other in a bucket of ice is on the average quite comfortable. Sometimes you not only have to know what is done, you have to know why it is done. By the way there’s nothing goofy about it, just the response. You asked for it George. Frederick message Huh? where did you get that goofy idea.  It is based on your total payments averaged over over a specific number of years (34?). Then they multiply that average by a factor to get your annual payment (a high percentage for a low amount and a low percentage for a high amount) The calculations, although they should be simple, are rather complex (much like income taxes where there can be a mass of calculations that could have been arrived at by two simple calculations).  However, my understanding there is indexing for present worth, but no interest is calculated. In case it’s been overlooked, it must be remembered that the amount in the fund, on which your SS benefit is based, is an amount which is the sum of each years accrued contribution, compounded annually up to the date when you retire. So the amount on which your pension is based is much greater than the sum of all your payments. Frederick No way am I turning down whatever they’ll give back to me now. Will KD3XR Curmudgeon in training Now tell the truth.  You DO believe that "they" owe you don’t you? So, you agree with Mr. Conservative. — TravlinTim (who has no problem reading between the lines) Hansen

Response:

Sad thing is many militant pro smokers believe this! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sarcasm alert! Phillip Morris and Czechoslovakia just showed us the way.  Did you see that news report?  Smoking is BENEFICIAL because it causes people to die off at an earlier age thus saving billions in long term health care costs.  That’s the key to saving Social Security, mandatory smoking. Wonder who will propose it first?  Democrats or Republicans? LZ

Response:

I think you have misunderstood my statement. It is a present worth calculation but one which uses a different interest rate for each year depending on the relationship between the cost of living on year 1 and that on the following year. It’s not a present worth calculation using a fixed interest rate. It’s an iterative calculation. In calculus terms it’s calculated incrementally and summated, not by a normal integration. The error in your statement is that there is no averaging involved. Each preceding year is calculated separately and the years are then summated. A different multiplier is applied to the amount paid each year depending on which year it was paid. If you paid in the same amount each year you could use the multiplier for each year and arrive at a final multiplier, but you don’t pay in the same amount each year, so it has to be done iteratively. The same present worth calculation is done on multi year projects where the expenditures vary from one year to the next, but for comparison purposes it must be present worthed to compare them. Clients wouldn’t stand for your averaging technique at all. Averages are to be approached carefully. A man with one foot in a bucket of boiling water and the other in a bucket of ice is on the average quite comfortable. Sometimes you not only have to know what is done, you have to know why it is done. By the way there’s nothing goofy about it, just the response. You asked for it George. Frederick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Huh? where did you get that goofy idea.  It is based on your total payments averaged over over a specific number of years (34?).  Then they multiply that average by a factor to get your annual payment (a high percentage for a low amount and a low percentage for a high amount) The calculations, although they should be simple, are rather complex (much like income taxes where there can be a mass of calculations that could have been arrived at by two simple calculations).  However, my understanding there is indexing for present worth, but no interest is calculated. In case it’s been overlooked, it must be remembered that the amount in the fund, on which your SS benefit is based, is an amount which is the sum of each years accrued contribution, compounded annually up to the date when you retire. So the amount on which your pension is based is much greater than the sum of all your payments. Frederick No way am I turning down whatever they’ll give back to me now. Will KD3XR Curmudgeon in training Now tell the truth.  You DO believe that "they" owe you don’t you? So, you agree with Mr. Conservative. — TravlinTim (who has no problem reading between the lines) Hansen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  as time goes by, the payers pay much more and the the payout period lengthens.  That’s what happens in all pyramid schemes.   The estimate is that in the future every person on SSI will be supported by only two workers, that ought to be interesting.  Most people that started receiving social security payments before the early 90’s, paid very little in and there are still people receiving SSI that paid in a maximum of $500 and get many times that amount each year.  And since lots of older widows receiving ssi payments, never worked, they never paid in anything. You accept reality well but many people won’t.  It is easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that "they" are paying me back. Eventually, these Pyramid Ponzi schemes generally come to an end but right now that is what every body is asking for.  I do NOT even pretend to have an answer that will make every body happy. One method guaranteed to work is to invest enough to retire without need for help from the taxpayers.  However, a few $100,000 hits to pay for serious medical problems like a heart bypass is going to be hard to take. But, after that, maybe I won’t need much income. John

Sarcasm alert! Phillip Morris and Czechoslovakia just showed us the way.  Did you see that news report?  Smoking is BENEFICIAL because it causes people to die off at an earlier age thus saving billions in long term health care costs.  That’s the key to saving Social Security, mandatory smoking. Wonder who will propose it first?  Democrats or Republicans? LZ

Response:

 as time goes by, the payers pay much more and the the payout period lengthens.  That’s what happens in all pyramid schemes.   The estimate is that in the future every person on SSI will be supported by only two workers, that ought to be interesting.  Most people that started receiving social security payments before the early 90’s, paid very little in and there are still people receiving SSI that paid in a maximum of $500 and get many times that amount each year.  And since lots of older widows receiving ssi payments, never worked, they never paid in anything.

You accept reality well but many people won’t.  It is easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that "they" are paying me back.   Eventually, these Pyramid Ponzi schemes generally come to an end but right now that is what every body is asking for.  I do NOT even pretend to have an answer that will make every body happy. One method guaranteed to work is to invest enough to retire without need for help from the taxpayers.  However, a few $100,000 hits to pay for serious medical problems like a heart bypass is going to be hard to take.   But, after that, maybe I won’t need much income. John      

Response:

Huh? where did you get that goofy idea.  It is based on your total payments averaged over over a specific number of years (34?).  Then they multiply that average by a factor to get your annual payment (a high percentage for a low amount and a low percentage for a high amount)  The calculations, although they should be simple, are rather complex (much like income taxes where there can be a mass of calculations that could have been arrived at by two simple calculations).  However, my understanding there is indexing for present worth, but no interest is calculated.       – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In case it’s been overlooked, it must be remembered that the amount in the fund, on which your SS benefit is based, is an amount which is the sum of each years accrued contribution, compounded annually up to the date when you retire. So the amount on which your pension is based is much greater than the sum of all your payments. Frederick No way am I turning down whatever they’ll give back to me now. Will KD3XR Curmudgeon in training Now tell the truth.  You DO believe that "they" owe you don’t you? So, you agree with Mr. Conservative. — TravlinTim (who has no problem reading between the lines) Hansen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A 7-8 year payback fits with most of the people that I know that had a fairly good income but not enough to pay the maximum social security amount each year. As you pointed out, there are a lot of variables. Have you considered these facts in your analysis? 1) – About 1/3 of the SS contributions pay for immediate benefits such as disability so about only 2/3 of contributions go for retirement. 2) – Don’t forget the cost of socialized medicine.  My search for a private medical plan before I qualify for medicare best case was about $7,000 per year and this is for a younger person well under medicare age. The cost as we get older will be much higher. So, if you take the your case where the spouse is also age 65 and receives an entitlement based on your record: Maybe $2,250 per month combined SS payments = $27,000 per year. Add two medicare plans for total of at least $14,000 per year. TOTAL COST is at least $41,000 per year. In this case, your 7-8 years number is way too long, even when you account for inflation and investment returns in the contributions. No equivalent private investment plan would provide these returns. Another fact to consider: If you had older parents that were on SS and medicare then those parents had paid virtually no contributions so your SS contributions went to pay their bills.  Leaves nothing for your retirement.  So in that case, calculating return on your contributions is a pipe dream. This points out that SS and Medicare is supported by a generation transfer tax as most of know.  The young pay for the old, but of course, the young are not multiplying as fast as predicted.  This may lead to a real problem in the future.  But, I can’t think of any solution that will satisfy everybody. A lot of people besides Will are playing the "Let’s Pretend" game! John

The numbers I used are for SSI only and don’t include medicare.  And the ‘92 maximum payment was $1692 (husband and wife using the husband’s contribution).  Medicare is separate from the SSI so combining it doesn’t give a true picture.  What you are really saying  is that the Medicare part is returned very quickly. And yes, you are right, as time goes by, the payers pay much more and the the payout period lengthens.  That’s what happens in all pyramid schemes.   The estimate is that in the future every person on SSI will be supported by only two workers, that ought to be interesting.  Most people that started receiving social security payments before the early 90’s, paid very little in and there are still people receiving SSI that paid in a maximum of $500 and get many times that amount each year.  And since lots of older widows receiving ssi payments, never worked, they never paid in anything.

Response:

In case it’s been overlooked, it must be remembered that the amount in the fund, on which your SS benefit is based, is an amount which is the sum of each years accrued contribution, compounded annually up to the date when you retire. So the amount on which your pension is based is much greater than the sum of all your payments. Frederick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No way am I turning down whatever they’ll give back to me now. Will KD3XR Curmudgeon in training Now tell the truth.  You DO believe that "they" owe you don’t you? So, you agree with Mr. Conservative. — TravlinTim (who has no problem reading between the lines) Hansen

Response:

A 7-8 year payback fits with most of the people that I know that had a fairly good income but not enough to pay the maximum social security amount each year.

As you pointed out, there are a lot of variables. Have you considered these facts in your analysis? 1) – About 1/3 of the SS contributions pay for immediate benefits such as disability so about only 2/3 of contributions go for retirement. 2) – Don’t forget the cost of socialized medicine.  My search for a private medical plan before I qualify for medicare best case was about $7,000 per year and this is for a younger person well under medicare age.   The cost as we get older will be much higher. So, if you take the your case where the spouse is also age 65 and receives an entitlement based on your record: Maybe $2,250 per month combined SS payments = $27,000 per year. Add two medicare plans for total of at least $14,000 per year. TOTAL COST is at least $41,000 per year. In this case, your 7-8 years number is way too long, even when you account for inflation and investment returns in the contributions. No equivalent private investment plan would provide these returns.   Another fact to consider: If you had older parents that were on SS and medicare then those parents had paid virtually no contributions so your SS contributions went to pay their bills.  Leaves nothing for your retirement.  So in that case, calculating return on your contributions is a pipe dream.   This points out that SS and Medicare is supported by a generation transfer tax as most of know.  The young pay for the old, but of course, the young are not multiplying as fast as predicted.  This may lead to a real problem in the future.  But, I can’t think of any solution that will satisfy everybody. A lot of people besides Will are playing the "Let’s Pretend" game! John

Response:

No way am I turning down whatever they’ll give back to me now. Will KD3XR Curmudgeon in training Now tell the truth.  You DO believe that "they" owe you don’t you?

So, you agree with Mr. Conservative. — TravlinTim (who has no problem reading between the lines) Hansen

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was told that in 24 years you receive all that you and your employer put in. Will, Mistake in above statement. Should be 14 years   Depends on your age and total contributions made in your account. It can be a short a 6 years, or as much as 18 (per an indepth report I read). But considering that your average 62 year-old lives into their 80’s…. — RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv   If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is

As an added bit of information, I believe the 18 year figure applies to very few people. Here is something to hang your hat on from a retirement seminar in 1994 (I didn’t retire that year). If you paid the maximum Social Security tax from 1937 to 1992 and were 65 in 1992, you would receive your total contribution back in 3.6 years.  That means employer and employee contribution would be received back in 7.2 years.  If your spouse is also age 65 and receives an entitlement based on your record, then total contribution of you and your employer would be receive in 4.8 years. Since persons with greater contribution are paid back at a lower rate than those with low earnings, the above represents the longest period of payback. That is, low earnings receive about 60 percent of earnings, average earnings receive about 40 percent of earnings and high earnings receive about 25 percent of earnings. The amount paid in, the monthly payback, and the time for complete return of funds is a moving target so if all the rest is true but your retirement date is 2001, the payback period will be longer.  However payback estimates in the teens probably represent indexing of value (accounting for the depreciating value of the dollar) and in some cases an interest rate applied to contributions. BTW, the maximum employee contribution for the period 1937 through 1992 was $50,027.   A 7-8 year payback fits with most of the people that I know that had a fairly good income but not enough to pay the maximum social security amount each year.

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BTW, it looks like I will have to live to 138 years old before I will get back what I (and my employers) put in.

Will, could you show us the math on that statement. I was told that in 24 years you receive all that you and your employer put in. Where is that wrong? Vince

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I was told that in 24 years you receive all that you and your employer put in.

Will, Mistake in above statement. Should be 14 years Vince

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BTW, it looks like I will have to live to 138 years old before I will get back what I (and my employers) put in.

Will, could you show us the math on that statement. I was told that in 24 years you receive all that you and your employer put in. Where is that wrong?

"I was told" it was well past my expected death date, and since it is well known that the good die young, I expect to die by 138.  8-) Hey – I don’t know for sure WHAT the "right number" is – choose your source based on who you want to believe.  All I’m sure of is that the average person will get back a LOT less than they’d have realized from a systematic investment in any reasonably safe interest-bearing instrument.  I will not try to argue whose numbers are best – nor will I even argue that we oughta abolish the whole thing. I’m just saying it’s no free lunch.  I paid in the max (and so did my employers) for 40+ years.  No way am I turning down whatever they’ll give back to me now. Will KD3XR Curmudgeon in training

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I was told that in 24 years you receive all that you and your employer put in. Will, Mistake in above statement. Should be 14 years

  Depends on your age and total contributions made in your account. It can be a short a 6 years, or as much as 18 (per an indepth report I read). But considering that your average 62 year-old lives into their 80’s…. — RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv   If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is

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Some nitwit (BKT?) masquerading as Mister Conservative post, failed to see it was a "Bill of No Rights", and squealed: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Will Sill, You forgot some rights you are very fond of: Since I am over 65 years old I have the following rights: 1.  I have the right to a monthly socialist security check. 2.  I have the right to be provided socialized medicine. 3.  I have the right to pretend that this free ride comes out of the     social security trust fund even though no such fund or money exists except in the minds of my politician friends and liberals like me. 4.  I have the right to pretend that I paid for this even though I have received much much more than I paid. 5.  I have the right to pretend that the gummit owes me and pays these costs even though taxpayers know that they are forced to pay. 6.  I have the right to pretend that young workers owe me this free ride. 7.  I have the right to have my liberal gummit friends steal the money from young workers to provide me my free ride because young people owe me. 8.  I have the right to prevent the young taxpayers from investing their social security taxes for their future because their tax money needs to be used to pay for my free ride. 8 – And last but not least, I have the right to pretend that I am a responsible conservative even though I am a bleeding heart liberal who actually believes that I deserve my free ride. Now tell the truth.  You DO believe that "they" owe you don’t you?

I guess you are still PO’d that Al Gore lost the election, eh?   When you grow up (looks like that will be a long way off!) are you going to refuse to participate in the gummit-mandated SS system – either as a contributor or a benefactor?   Just curious. BTW, it looks like I will have to live to 138 years old before I will get back what I (and my employers) put in. Will Sill KD3XR "I don’t want everyone to like me. I should think less of myself if some people did". – Henry James

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   The following has nothing in particular to do with rv’s, and is not new. It is attributed to State Representative Mitchell Kaye from GA. I do NOT know if he actually wrote it, but I thought it might bring a smile or two.  Hand-wringing liberals should feel perfectly free to howl in protest. Will  "We, the sensible  people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great- grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally  whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bed-wetters.  We hold these truths to be self-evident: that  a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and  are so dim that they require a `                         _Bill of No Rights"._  ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a  new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth.  More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.  ARTICLE II:  You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is  based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone – not just you! You may leave the room, turn channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.  ARTICLE III:   You  do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick  a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not  expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.  ARTICLE    IV: You do not have the right to free food and  housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly  growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of  professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.  ARTICLE V:     You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we’re just not interested in public health care.  ARTICLE VI:    You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don’t be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.  ARTICLE VII:   You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don’t be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won’t have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.  ARTICLE VIII:  You don’t have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience.  We hate oppressive governments and won’t lift a finger to stop you from going to  fight if you’d like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.  ARTICLE IX:  You don’t have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.  ARTICLE X: You do not have the right to happiness.  Being an American means that you  have the right to PURSUE happiness – which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights." Will KD3XR Curmudgeon in training

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Question:

So you pay 140*100 = $14,000 each year to own your plane?! Wow, I’m sure glad I went with fixed gear/fixed prop! (… but let’s never race.)

Did you have to go and multiply that out!!  That’s not fair.  I like my rule better.  Money spent on the airplane just doesn’t count.  There is no way to financially justify owning a classic aircraft, so don’t try. BTW how much does it cost to support a fixed gear/fixed prop? Margy

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Did you have to go and multiply that out!!  That’s not fair.  I like my rule better.  Money spent on the airplane just doesn’t count.  

I agree.  There are definitely things better not known BTW how much does it cost to support a fixed gear/fixed prop?

My own costs: about zero dollars for cost of money (if I can’t spend it, it ain’t no good anyway) about $1000/year for insurance about $800/year for tie-down about $1000 – $2000 per year for the annual (and mid-year oil changes and other "normal" maintenance) about $20/hour for fuel about $10/hour for maintenance reserve and hopefully no nasty surprises like ADs or new cylinders… — Bob (I think people can figure out how to email me…) (replace ihatessppaamm with my name (rnoel) and hw1 with mediaone)

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I just bought a 1979 Cessna 172.  My break even is 10 hours per month / 120 hours per year based upon the local rental rates here in Houston:  $89/hour for IFR certified C-172. In the last 4 days, I’ve logged 7 hours.  I plan to average 20 hours or more per month.  We’ll see how it goes. Payments are $489/month. Good luck. John Green

EVERYTHING I read says that renting is cheaper than buying, but I have yet to hear anyone deal with the matter in terms of the equity that is established by ownership. Most people would rather own their homes than rent because renting is like throwing money away while buying a home is a way to develop equity. This is in spite of the fact that home ownership is a headache, involves extra money for insurance, upkeep, etc. (sound familiar?) If pilot #1 rents a Cessna 150 100 hours a year (just half of what I heard is amounts to a cost of $5000 each year (probably more since rental fees will likely go up in that period). If you include rental insurance in that equation, that could amount to as much as another $400+. In ten years, that means that at least $54000 will be basically "thrown to the wind" and our hypothetical pilot has no more to show for the expense than a full log book. How does that compare to pilot #2, who purchased a 150 at the beginning of this same ten year period? Certainly, it would amount to a sizable outlay of funds, but at least at the end of the decade, he would have the equity of the airplane to show for it. Could it be that renting is cheaper in the short run, but in the long run, ownership becomes more feasible when the equity of the plane is figured in? I would really welcome anyone who is able to enlighten me on the wisdom or foolishness of this comparison?

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If there are any accountants here, perhaps they can tell us if that would not make a leaseback arrangement more favorable as a way to finance an airplane? A leaseback might make the interest, maintenance, insurance and depreciation tax deductible, and perhaps the resulting tax shelter would offset the disadvantages of leaseback arrangements.

The problem with attempting to operate it as a business is that it is a business. Unless you take an active role in the leaseback, you can’t deduct the losses from the business against anything other than passive activities.  In order to make a profit, you really have to have decent management, control over the maintenance, and high availability and rental rates.  You can do this if you’re careful with a trainer, although it’s also quite easy to get screwed. Note that your maintenance will be HIGHER, your insurance will be HIGHER (by 3 times or more),  and you lose most of the benefits of having it as your own plane (continuous availability, ability to leave your own stuff in the plane, etc…).  Depreciation, while deductible is a double edged sword because aircraft really don’t depreciate (even as primary trainers) as fast as the depreciation schedule, so you’ll recapture all that when you dispose of it. I don’t want to discourage anybody who wants to start an aviation business (we need more people in the industry), but leaseback is not just a convenient way to park your plane for a few tax deductions.

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I saw a funny quote by a guy in this month’s AOPA pilot.  I don’t remember the name, but he started flying in 1923 and recently retired due to medical reasons. He flew for United Air lines and has many thousands of hours.  He said: "I’ve lost money in every aviation business I’ve ever started." Of course, he had lots of fun too.

If there are any accountants here, perhaps they can tell us if that would not make a leaseback arrangement more favorable as a way to finance an airplane? A leaseback might make the interest, maintenance, insurance and depreciation tax deductible, and perhaps the resulting tax shelter would offset the disadvantages of leaseback arrangements.

The problem with attempting to operate it as a business is that it is a business. Unless you take an active role in the leaseback, you can’t deduct the losses from the business against anything other than passive activities.  In order to make a profit, you really have to have decent management, control over the maintenance, and high availability and rental rates.  You can do this if you’re careful with a trainer, although it’s also quite easy to get screwed. Note that your maintenance will be HIGHER, your insurance will be HIGHER (by 3 times or more),  and you lose most of the benefits of having it as your own plane (continuous availability, ability to leave your own stuff in the plane, etc…).  Depreciation, while deductible is a double edged sword because aircraft really don’t depreciate (even as primary trainers) as fast as the depreciation schedule, so you’ll recapture all that when you dispose of it. I don’t want to discourage anybody who wants to start an aviation business (we need more people in the industry), but leaseback is not just a convenient way to park your plane for a few tax deductions.

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I just bought a 1979 Cessna 172.  My break even is 10 hours per month / 120 hours per year based upon the local rental rates here in Houston:  $89/hour for IFR certified C-172. In the last 4 days, I’ve logged 7 hours.  I plan to average 20 hours or more per month.  We’ll see how it goes.

On the Navion (260HP retract, with class), at 100 hours a year, it works out to $140/hour, at 150 hours a year it works out to $100/hour. Of course, you can’t rent Navions around here.  Arrows go for around $100/hr.

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EVERYTHING I read says that renting is cheaper than buying, but I have yet to hear anyone deal with the matter in terms of the equity that is established by ownership. Most people would rather own their homes than rent because renting is like throwing money away while buying a home is a way to develop equity.

People who say things like that generally don’t understand concepts like "opportunity cost." This is in spite of the fact that home ownership is a headache, involves extra money for insurance, upkeep, etc. (sound familiar?)

Way too familiar. If pilot #1 rents a Cessna 150 100 hours a year (just half of what I heard is amounts to a cost of $5000 each year (probably more since rental fees will likely go up in that period). If you include rental insurance in that equation, that could amount to as much as another $400+. In ten years, that means that at least $54000 will be basically "thrown to the wind" and our hypothetical pilot has no more to show for the expense than a full log book.

I don’t even start to understand the part about throwing money to the wind.  You really don’t feel that the renter got anything in return for his money (besides "a full log book")? How does that compare to pilot #2, who purchased a 150 at the beginning of this same ten year period? Certainly, it would amount to a sizable outlay of funds, but at least at the end of the decade, he would have the equity of the airplane to show for it.

He’d also have the interest (and risks and sale costs…) to show for it. I suspect that for *most* people, it’d be far better (economically) to invest in something more conventional and let someone else provide airplanes. Could it be that renting is cheaper in the short run, but in the long run, ownership becomes more feasible when the equity of the plane is figured in? I would really welcome anyone who is able to enlighten me on the wisdom or foolishness of this comparison?

I don’t think it’s anywhere near that simple – even from a strictly econmical perspective. (Airplane purchases are often made for non- economic reasons.  I’m an example.) –kyler

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An important difference to remember is that home ownership is heavily subsidized by the deductibility of the interest payments. There is no such deduction for the interest on an airplane loan unless it is a business expense.

That’s not necessarily true.  I purchased our Aztec with a home equity loan.  I think I’ve even seen home equity loans to 110%(?) of appraised value. That still doesn’t magically make it economically sensible (over renting).  In our case, there was no other way (of which I knew) to get a roomy soft- field-capable twin for taking my family on trips at a moment’s notice. –kyler

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That’s not necessarily true.  I purchased our Aztec with a home equity loan.  I think I’ve even seen home equity loans to 110%(?) of appraised value.

The interest on the amount over the value of the home is not deductible.   BDWood

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unless you join a club.  i went from renting a 172 at $73/hr wet *hobbs* with a daily minimum for overnights to a warrior ii at $45/hr wet *tach* with no daily minimum, also paying $45/mo dues.  and the club warrior has a garmin gns 430 in it–show me a rental with one of those!  i break even at a little over 2 hours a month, but i’m flying more like 6-10 hr/month, so i’m saving big time.  and once i get my ticket (still a student), i qualify to move up to the club’s archer ($55/hr) or dakota ($67.50/hr), similarly equipped.  with those kinds of numbers, you’d have to fly a lot more than 200 hr/yr to justify buying a plane. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I feel to compare cost, you must first compare "use". If your flying is a series of 1 hour local flights; renting would be the answer. But if you use your aircraft for weekend getaways, vacations, and visiting out-of-town family; owing quickly becomes the only option due to minimum daily use requirements and aircraft availability for renters. Regards, Bill EVERYTHING I read says that renting is cheaper than buying, but I have yet to hear anyone deal with the matter in terms of the equity that is established by ownership. Most people would rather own their homes than rent because renting is like throwing money away while buying a home is a way to develop equity. This is in spite of the fact that home ownership is a headache, involves extra money for insurance, upkeep, etc. (sound familiar?) If pilot #1 rents a Cessna 150 100 hours a year (just half of what I heard is amounts to a cost of $5000 each year (probably more since rental fees will likely go up in that period). If you include rental insurance in that equation, that could amount to as much as another $400+. In ten years, that means that at least $54000 will be basically "thrown to the wind" and our hypothetical pilot has no more to show for the expense than a full log book. How does that compare to pilot #2, who purchased a 150 at the beginning of this same ten year period? Certainly, it would amount to a sizable outlay of funds, but at least at the end of the decade, he would have the equity of the airplane to show for it. Could it be that renting is cheaper in the short run, but in the long run, ownership becomes more feasible when the equity of the plane is figured in? I would really welcome anyone who is able to enlighten me on the wisdom or foolishness of this comparison?

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One of the key reasons that I am planning on buying an airplane is safety. You get very good at knowing a plane when you have flown it for a while. You get to know the sounds, the feel, and all of it’s quirks and idiosyncrasies. You know the performance better than the POH. (Remember, those numbers are a new airplane, professional pilot, ideal conditions, etc.) Not to mention that renters won’t let you fly their airplanes for the type of you may want to do(mountain, bush, off airport, etc). I would rather have my own airplane than a house, so it’s easy for me to justify the dollar difference. Bob Sublett

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Most people would rather own their homes than rent because renting is like throwing money away while buying a home is a way to develop equity.

Most people in Europe prefer to rent rather than own because it’s less expensive. That’s because European governments don’t allow citizens to deduct home loan interest on their taxes. If you weren’t given that deduction in the US, your house would be worth about what you paid for it (including interest, not counting maintenance) at the end of thirty years. Given the unstable real estate markets I have seen, it could easily be worth twice that or half that (or nothing at all). In contrast, you can’t deduct the interest on the aircraft loan. New planes take a hit from depreciation for a few years, and then start to climb. At the end of thirty years, it’ll be worth about the same amount in dollars as you paid, which means you’re out the interest. Judging by the prices in TAP, it could easily be worth half again as much, but generally that’s because someone has spent twice as much on new avionics or other renovations. Since inflation applies equally to houses and planes, we can ignore it. For most people, however, aircraft ownership means buying a used plane with a short term loan and keeping it for less than 30 years. In many of these cases, they are able to sell the plane for about the amount of the principle and interest. Many people simply ignore equity and interest in calculating the cost of aircraft ownership. If you do that, it usually works out that renting is cheaper if you fly less than around 150 hours per year (quoted figures range from 100 hours to 250 hours, depending on who’s talking). When I owned my Cessna 150, the break-even point worked out to about 105 hours. With my Maule, I don’t want to know. George Patterson,  N3162Q.

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One of the key reasons that I am planning on buying an airplane is safety. You get very good at knowing a plane when you have flown it for a while. You get to know the sounds, the feel, and all of it’s quirks and idiosyncrasies. You know the performance better than the POH. (Remember, those numbers are a new airplane, professional pilot, ideal conditions, etc.) Not to mention that renters won’t let you fly their airplanes for the type of you may want to do(mountain, bush, off airport, etc). I would rather have my own airplane than a house, so it’s easy for me to justify the dollar difference. Bob Sublett

Safety is a good point—if you are the only person that flys the plane you know what to look at. There is no greater satisfaction than owning your own plane—-and ownership is rare outside of the USA. I think i’ve seen statistics that indicate that only 25% of pilots own aircraft—it is a fairly elite club—and I think ownership is worth the price in spades. Just about any dilbert with a job can buy a new Mercedes—for the same $ a pilot can buy a used Cessna that will appreciate every year while the MB’s value will slowly decline. Years ago when I started flying and had to get in line at the rental desk to rent a 172 I felt pretty lame—I didn’t even feel like a pilot. The whole thing about piloting an aircraft is that you are in control of something—and ownership gives you the ultimate control. I’ve owned 10 different SE planes in the last dozen years and made $ selling them every single time, so I think if I put a slide-rule to it I would say that my flying has been basically free. The planes I look at to buy double in value every 5-7 years. I say if you can afford to buy, do it.

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Annual Hanger –                          $2,400 Annual Fuel Bill –                          $3,500 Annual Inspection –                      $0 – It’s a homebuilt Annual lost opportunity on $50K- $5,000 Etc. The ability to pull the airplane out any day, any time and fly it to any spot within the U.S. without worrying about schedules, daily usage minimums, etc, etc.                      - PRICELESS For all other purchases there’s Gold Mastercard Scott Gesele N506RV – Flying and NOT counting the dollars.   Let’s see, should I just take the wife for a couple of $100 hamburger day trips this weekend, or should we spend the entire weekend in Niagara Falls.  That descision can wait until Saturday morning – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -#2 buys 150 for 15,000 — assume average return of 10% he could have made on that money, and it costs him 1500/yr forgetting about compounding. Then insurance – say 700/yr. Tie down – 100/mo  = 1200/yr Fuel and oil for 100 hrs = 1400 Annual – 400 (if he’s lucky) Maintenance – 500 Engine reserve – 600/yr. That equals $6300/yr. Then assume his "investment in the 150 appreciates 3%/yr = $450.00 (forgetting compounding again) and his overall cost is 5850. But remember ownership isn’t only about the bottom line cost — pride of ownership, availability, and knowing what kind of plane and what quality of maintenance is involved in the care of the plane has value, too.

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I own because "I LOVE TO FLY". Cost isn’t the major issue, but is a big issue. People who love to fish buy boats, cars, you name it. A man and his toys… No rental bird is as spiffy as my bird nor as well maintained (IMHO which is highly biased!) and my bird isn’t abused. Its new wheel pants added 5 knots and it cruises just fine. I take it out WHENEVER "I" want to!  That is a big deal too! Any time day OR night… Armand – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, it costs.

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But remember ownership isn’t only about the bottom line cost — pride of ownership, availability, and knowing what kind of plane and what quality of maintenance is involved in the care of the plane has value, too.

which is why, against many people’s advice and knowing it would end up more expensive, I went for my own plane: I know that it is well equipped to full IF standards, I know who is flying it (a few people besides myself, all of whom I know well) and I know that when I need it, it is there. Yes, it costs.

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So you pay 140*100 = $14,000 each year to own your plane?! Wow, I’m sure glad I went with fixed gear/fixed prop! (… but let’s never race.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On the Navion (260HP retract, with class), at 100 hours a year, it works out to $140/hour, at 150 hours a year it works out to $100/hour. Of course, you can’t rent Navions around here.  Arrows go for around $100/hr.

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So you pay 140*100 = $14,000 each year to own your plane?! Wow, I’m sure glad I went with fixed gear/fixed prop! (… but let’s never race.)

That includes everything including payments on the loan. I figure the fixed costs at about 12,000/yr and 22.50/hour for fuel.

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I have owned, rented, borrowed, begged, bummed, and bartered for flight time… Owning is the head and shoulders best, and of course being the best it is also the most expensive… I am currently back to renting and the signficant other is on the warpath demanding that I get another airplane, pointing out local planes for sale, etc., due to the fact that rented airplanes have had mechanical problems 4 times out of the last 6 times we flew (or tried to)… She flat refuses to fly in a rented plane any more… So, I’m back to bumming, begging, etc… The instant availability of a squawk free airplane has a price tag that is difficult to quantify, but definitely is on the positive side of the cost per hour ledger, when you are totalling up… Denny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bought a 1979 Cessna 172.  My break even is 10 hours per month / 120 hours per year based upon the local rental rates here in Houston:  $89/hour for IFR certified C-172. In the last 4 days, I’ve logged 7 hours.  I plan to average 20 hours or more per month.  We’ll see how it goes. On the Navion (260HP retract, with class), at 100 hours a year, it works out to $140/hour, at 150 hours a year it works out to $100/hour. Of course, you can’t rent Navions around here.  Arrows go for around $100/hr.

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Nice shot…. Denny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Annual Hanger –                          $2,400 Annual Fuel Bill –                          $3,500 Annual Inspection –                      $0 – It’s a homebuilt Annual lost opportunity on $50K- $5,000 Etc. The ability to pull the airplane out any day, any time and fly it to any spot within the U.S. without worrying about schedules, daily usage minimums, etc, etc.                      - PRICELESS For all other purchases there’s Gold Mastercard Scott Gesele N506RV – Flying and NOT counting the dollars. Let’s see, should I just take the wife for a couple of $100 hamburger day trips this weekend, or should we spend the entire weekend in Niagara Falls.  That descision can wait until Saturday morning #2 buys 150 for 15,000 — assume average return of 10% he could have made on that money, and it costs him 1500/yr forgetting about compounding. Then insurance – say 700/yr. Tie down – 100/mo  = 1200/yr Fuel and oil for 100 hrs = 1400 Annual – 400 (if he’s lucky) Maintenance – 500 Engine reserve – 600/yr. That equals $6300/yr. Then assume his "investment in the 150 appreciates 3%/yr = $450.00 (forgetting compounding again) and his overall cost is 5850. But remember ownership isn’t only about the bottom line cost — pride of ownership, availability, and knowing what kind of plane and what quality of maintenance is involved in the care of the plane has value, too.

Response:

So you pay 140*100 = $14,000 each year to own your plane?!

Let’s say the Navion costs around $70K. (That’s a WAG.)  If you borrow from the aircraft loan places I called, you’ll pay around 10% interest.  That’s $7K/year – half of the total cost. For yet more WAGs, let’s say the fuel burn is 13 gph at $2/gallon for $2.6K/ year.  Throw in a hangar at $150/month ($1800/year) and you’re left with only $2600/year for maintenance and insurance. Sounds like a bargain to me.  Heck, our maintenance costs about $14K/year… –kyler

Response:

#2 buys 150 for 15,000 — assume average return of 10% he could have made on that money, and it costs him 1500/yr forgetting about compounding. Then insurance – say 700/yr. Tie down – 100/mo  = 1200/yr Fuel and oil for 100 hrs = 1400 Annual – 400 (if he’s lucky) Maintenance – 500 Engine reserve – 600/yr. That equals $6300/yr. Then assume his "investment in the 150 appreciates 3%/yr = $450.00 (forgetting compounding again)  and his overall cost is 5850. But remember ownership isn’t only about the bottom line cost — pride of ownership, availability, and knowing what kind of plane and what quality of maintenance is involved in the care of the plane has value, too.

Response:

    I feel to compare cost, you must first compare "use". If your flying is a series of 1 hour local flights; renting would be the answer. But if you use your aircraft for weekend getaways, vacations, and visiting out-of-town family; owing quickly becomes the only option due to minimum daily use requirements and aircraft availability for renters. Regards, Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – EVERYTHING I read says that renting is cheaper than buying, but I have yet to hear anyone deal with the matter in terms of the equity that is established by ownership. Most people would rather own their homes than rent because renting is like throwing money away while buying a home is a way to develop equity. This is in spite of the fact that home ownership is a headache, involves extra money for insurance, upkeep, etc. (sound familiar?) If pilot #1 rents a Cessna 150 100 hours a year (just half of what I heard is amounts to a cost of $5000 each year (probably more since rental fees will likely go up in that period). If you include rental insurance in that equation, that could amount to as much as another $400+. In ten years, that means that at least $54000 will be basically "thrown to the wind" and our hypothetical pilot has no more to show for the expense than a full log book. How does that compare to pilot #2, who purchased a 150 at the beginning of this same ten year period? Certainly, it would amount to a sizable outlay of funds, but at least at the end of the decade, he would have the equity of the airplane to show for it. Could it be that renting is cheaper in the short run, but in the long run, ownership becomes more feasible when the equity of the plane is figured in? I would really welcome anyone who is able to enlighten me on the wisdom or foolishness of this comparison?

Response:

(Essha) writes: Most people would rather own their homes than rent because renting is like throwing money away while buying a home is a way to develop equity.

An important difference to remember is that home ownership is heavily subsidized by the deductibility of the interest payments. There is no such deduction for the interest on an airplane loan unless it is a business expense. If there are any accountants here, perhaps they can tell us if that would not make a leaseback arrangement more favorable as a way to finance an airplane? A leaseback might make the interest, maintenance, insurance and depreciation tax deductible, and perhaps the resulting tax shelter would offset the disadvantages of leaseback arrangements. Don Don Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS PP-ASEL Chesapeake, VA – CPK

Response:

EVERYTHING I read says that renting is cheaper than buying, but I have yet to hear anyone deal with the matter in terms of the equity that is established by ownership. Most people would rather own their homes than rent because renting is like throwing money away while buying a home is a way to develop equity. This is in spite of the fact that home ownership is a headache, involves extra money for insurance, upkeep, etc. (sound familiar?) If pilot #1 rents a Cessna 150 100 hours a year (just half of what I heard is amounts to a cost of $5000 each year (probably more since rental fees will likely go up in that period). If you include rental insurance in that equation, that could amount to as much as another $400+. In ten years, that means that at least $54000 will be basically "thrown to the wind" and our hypothetical pilot has no more to show for the expense than a full log book. How does that compare to pilot #2, who purchased a 150 at the beginning of this same ten year period? Certainly, it would amount to a sizable outlay of funds, but at least at the end of the decade, he would have the equity of the airplane to show for it. Could it be that renting is cheaper in the short run, but in the long run, ownership becomes more feasible when the equity of the plane is figured in? I would really welcome anyone who is able to enlighten me on the wisdom or foolishness of this comparison?

Response:

Question:

My cats hate the bathroom. However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard. My dogs love it when I shower, however. When I get out of the shower my 2 shelties love to rush in and lick my wet legs! — Debbie Cusick I plan to be a procrastinator some day if I ever get around to it. Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc

I have never gone to the bathroom alone for as long as I have had my cat….Toilet trips only, not showers…for some reason she has no inclination to see me naked. She is quite afraid of the flushy noise…but she is very well self- trained…as soon as she hears the toilet paper roll…she scampers

out!

Response:

You pet-o-phile! ;P Debby 310/209/150 My dogs love it when I shower, however. When I get out of the shower my 2 shelties love to rush in and lick my wet legs! — Debbie Cusick

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Response:

However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in

my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard.

LOLOL.. my youngest cat likes to sleep up under my chin when i’m on the computer. Good thing I got the boob-shelf to hold her up…… Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard. LOLOL.. my youngest cat likes to sleep up under my chin when i’m on the computer. Good thing I got the boob-shelf to hold her up……

<ASSUME THERAPIST MODE And how do you think your dear cat will feel when she realizes her cherished napspot will be gradually but distinctly decreased over the next months? HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF HER? Humans.  They only think of themselves. ;^) — St Theresa of the Net/only one you at uwm/Goal: HS wardrobe/&Don in ‘99/all bases covered

Response:

My three felines HAVE to have that bathroom door open.  If I’m in there, they want to be with me, if DH is in there they just pound the door open and walk away.  When I’m on the computer they usually arrange themselves around me and nap.  Once in awhile Dorrie will bite my legs to get attention. Hazel Az

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My cats are weird, they want more attention when I’m in the bathroom than anywhere else in the house. ROFLMAO…OMG I thought my cats were the only weird ones!!! LOLOLOLOL  I have 4 cats.. I always have an audience when I’m showering or using the bathroom!!! My oldest cat thinks cuz I’m sitting on the Toilet it’s perfectly acceptable for her to nap in my lap…LOLOLOLOL Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

My Princess Yasmine (she’s a little tiny 4 lb Himalayan) jumps on my computer chair as soon as I get up in the am, because she knows that I log on first thing.  Then she sits in my lap while I read, and if I don’t pet her, she gets mad and BITES my hands really hard!  She’s a nasty little thing! Jae – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard.

Response:

Normally yes, but hers is changed everyday… Of course, this is a cat, who comes out to my computer and jumps on my lap… Then runs into the bedroom, and then comes back out and jumps in my lap… Then runs again for the bedroom… She’s telling me it’s "bedtime"…. And when I go in there, she’s taken over half my pillow… — Marie 220/192/140 For those who say it can’t be done… Are being passed by those doing it. NEWBIES… Check out low carb info at http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everyone’s post is just all too funny.  My cat is the same way.  Once you go in there, here she comes, having to go too…. I guess she wants everyone to be proud of what she has accomplished…  And if by chance you’re not in there when she has to go, she’ll scratch and scratch until you tell her you hear her, then she’ll come on out… In my experience, when they keep scratching until they get your attention ("What are you doin’ in there, digging to China?"), it really means, "Momma, please scoop, we don’t wanna step in the poop." or  "our litter is non-clumping, this ammonia needs dumping." —  "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

My kitty, BabyKat, (some petite Siamese mix) will only drink from the bathroom faucet. Whenever she sees me going into the restroom she chirrups and jumps into the sink and stares at me..if I don’t comply immediately by turning the faucet on to a thin stream, (can’t be a drip or too fast, must remember this always! lol) she will pull the drain stopper out of the sink and go hide it.   If I go into the shower first thing in the morning, without giving her the usual good morning petting and sweettalk, she will stand outside the curtain and talk to me.  As soon as the water is off she jumps in the shower to drink whatever water is left going down the drain.   She is a hoot! ^..^ <     meaouw

Pammers

Response:

LOL. — Debbie Cusick I plan to be a procrastinator some day if I ever get around to it. Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You pet-o-phile! ;P My dogs love it when I shower, however. When I get out of the shower my 2 shelties love to rush in and lick my wet legs! — Debbie Cusick

Response:

<ASSUME THERAPIST MODE And how do you think your dear cat will feel when she realizes her cherished napspot will be gradually but distinctly decreased over the next months? HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF HER? Humans.  They only think of themselves.

ROFLMAO… actually, they will still be "bountiful". I was a 38D at 125 lbs (my teenage nick-name was"Dolly") Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

My Princess Yasmine (she’s a little tiny 4 lb Himalayan) jumps on my computer

chair as soon as I get up in the am, because she knows that I log on first thing.  Then she sits in my lap while I read, and if I don’t pet her, she gets mad and BITES my hands really hard!  She’s a nasty little thing! Jae

My kitten, misyt, has an appointmnt to be "fixed"  this thursday. Guess what.. she went into her first heat this weekend.  LOLOLOL… she wants a boyfriend really bad.!!!! She’s either grooming her lovliness in anticipation of snagging a boyfirend.. or doing a feline" bar-top" shimmy dance and yowling her unhappiness.  The puppy loves it because she’s so desperate she lets daisey jump on her and chew her…LOLOL…she’s on my boobshelf as we speak…. Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

I was a 38D at 125 lbs (my teenage nick-name was"Dolly") Tamera

Funny, mine was too..but that was because my last name was Parton…kids all thought it ironic that I wore a trainerbra til I was 19 with a name like that LOL Pammers = ) — "You keep on getting what you’ve been getting when you keep on doing what you’ve been doing." http://www.azstarnet.com/~midian/pam/pam.html  Pam Patterson

Response:

my cat, Jane, (sorry, I just had tojump in here)  Loves ORIGINS GINGER SOUFFLE body creme…..she likes to lick the jar, and my legs or arms when I used it…I couldn’t get rid of her!!! I don’t use it anymore because the  S/O (b) said it smells like BBQ sauce…(Go figure)  …but Janey-girl jumps up on my vanity and still licks the side of the jar…     yeccch…no accounting for taste….. Deb "Every day is a good day."  Yun-Men

Response:

My dog likes to eat lipstick.  I have to keep my lipstick tubes above waist level otherwise she eats them! Debby 310/209/150 my cat, Jane, (sorry, I just had tojump in here)  Loves ORIGINS GINGER SOUFFLE body creme…..she likes to lick the jar, and my legs or arms when I used it…I couldn’t get rid of her!!! I don’t use it anymore because the  S/O (b) said it smells like BBQ sauce…(Go figure)  …but Janey-girl jumps up on my vanity and still licks the side of the jar… yeccch…no accounting for taste….. Deb "Every day is a good day."  Yun-Men

– * * * * *  WEB PAGE NOW BACK ON-LINE * * * * * WEBSITE: http://debby.simplenet.com  ____          __    __                                               |      _____ |  |  |  | __    __                                     |  )  )/  __ |   |   \  / /    ”’                             |     )  ___/|  ) ||  ) | / /    (o o)                                                        /_/

Response:

my cat , cookie , loves to drink out of th tub, too.especially now that the baby puts her dry food in her water dish about 50 times a day! karyn

Response:

Everyone’s post is just all too funny.  My cat is the same way.  Once you go in there, here she comes, having to go too…. I guess she wants everyone to be proud of what she has accomplished…  And if by chance you’re not in there when she has to go, she’ll scratch and scratch until you tell her you hear her, then she’ll come on out…

In my experience, when they keep scratching until they get your attention ("What are you doin’ in there, digging to China?"), it really means, "Momma, please scoop, we don’t wanna step in the poop." or  "our litter is non-clumping, this ammonia needs dumping." —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

Congratulations on your decision Gayle.  You and I are about the same with the same goal. And remember to drink your water…then you’ll find out that the cat will be your best bathroom buddy!  Well, make that in all probability your only bathroom buddy.  My cats are weird, they want more attention when I’m in the bathroom than anywhere else in the house.  So that’s why they like it better when I go more often.  And they are the only ones to see me weigh and measure and they haven’t blabbed my weight to anyone….yet. Good luck, Paula …only my cat was around and she didn’t get it…just looked at me  curiously

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -cats don’t give much feedback and the family is not any support…

Response:

My cats are weird, they want more attention when I’m in the bathroom than anywhere else in the house.

ROFLMAO…OMG I thought my cats were the only weird ones!!! LOLOLOLOL  I have 4 cats.. I always have an audience when I’m showering or using the bathroom!!! My oldest cat thinks cuz I’m sitting on the Toilet it’s perfectly acceptable for her to nap in my lap…LOLOLOLOL Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

I have never gone to the bathroom alone for as long as I have had my cat….Toilet trips only, not showers…for some reason she has no inclination to see me naked. She is quite afraid of the flushy noise…but she is very well self- trained…as soon as she hears the toilet paper roll…she scampers out! 5′6" 312(52)-242(44)-160(38?)-work pants size ( Longing to be the woman I was, not the woman I could be! ) *1999* My Millenium Makeover In Progress Losing the weight is only step one. Just Me,  Lisa. "I’m not fat..I’m big boned!" -Eric Cartman- *SouthPark* PCOS the Silent Disease << http://www.pcosupport.org

Response:

Everyone’s post is just all too funny.  My cat is the same way.  Once you go in there, here she comes, having to go too…. I guess she wants everyone to be proud of what she has accomplished…  And if by chance you’re not in there when she has to go, she’ll scratch and scratch until you tell her you hear her, then she’ll come on out… — Marie 220/192/140 For those who say it can’t be done… Are being passed by those doing it. NEWBIES… Check out low carb info at http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never gone to the bathroom alone for as long as I have had my cat….Toilet trips only, not showers…for some reason she has no inclination to see me naked. She is quite afraid of the flushy noise…but she is very well self- trained…as soon as she hears the toilet paper roll…she scampers out! 5′6" 312(52)-242(44)-160(38?)-work pants size ( Longing to be the woman I was, not the woman I could be! ) *1999* My Millenium Makeover In Progress Losing the weight is only step one. Just Me,  Lisa. "I’m not fat..I’m big boned!" -Eric Cartman- *SouthPark* PCOS the Silent Disease << http://www.pcosupport.org

Response:

Gayle, I think success can be measured in steps.  You’ve already taken the first big one, you already are a success.  Since you don’t have a lot of outside support, stick with this group, they have helped me immensely! Good luck on day 4… Jayde

Response:

Welcome to our life.  I suspect that you will lose the Prednisone weight quite rapidly.  And I will tell you something else…  Your cat will LOVE your new WOE.  My cat never used to be beneath the dinner table like she has since we have been doing meat and veggies.  You will feel better after a while, after your body adjusts, and it will.  My liver loves my new WOL.  My arthritis is completely gone and I haven’t used my inhaler in two or three months (knock wood). — Val in Boise 168/135/Forever

Response:

Gayle,     Congratulations!  It sounds like you made a great start.  You will love this diet.  I think it is fairly easy to stay on.  I have been on it since Jan. and have lost 20 as of this morning,  I went shopping last Sat.  and the pants I was trying on were 2 sizes smaller!  I was very surprised and thrilled.  So of course I had to buy them.       I know it is very hard to stay on a diet when no one in your family is on it.  I’ve been there.  But with this diet, I think the food allowed is soooo good that most of the time my family eats it with me.  Explain to them too that you are doing this, not just to lose weight but for the health factor.  That helped with my husband.  He is now on this diet with me, which is WONDERFUL.        Good luck and let us know how it goes.  Oh by the way, there is also a Dr. Atkins message board.  I don’t have the address off hand, but I think I found it when looked up the diet on the internet on net find.              Jane

Response:

Go for it Gayle!  You poor thing, with that massive weight gain on the Prednisone.  Well your induction loss should be equally huge since it must be mainly water retention …. no one can put on 20 pounds of actual FAT in one week! Keep your carbs low, don’t worry about calories in fact if you even THINK you are hungry, eat some meat You will succeed at this!! Hi everyone, I am new to this group. I just started reading a couple days ago. I started the Atkins Diet on Tuesday…..

– Brenda Gray – Low Carb since 24 Jan 98 ~^

Question:

I am an 80% holder in an 80/20 partnership and have made loans to the partnership via credit cards held in my name.  Could someone explain to me how this should be accounted for from an income pespective?   Specifically, the interest though it is charged to me, should be a business expense should it not?   The way it is set up now, I am writing checks to myself and then paying the credit card bills from my personal account.  This means I’m liable for personal income taxes on all amounts. Also, the debt is not charged to the partnership, so the minority partner doesn’t share his part of the liability.  I know this isn’t right. My accountant (which was just retained last year) reclassed one card that I had specifically registered to the business, as a personal obligation (because my name was guaranteeing it) and reclassed all payments to that card as guaranteed payments to me, yet all expenses on the card were business related. If I were to reclass all of these credit card accounts to the business, it would result in a net loss for this year, and my partner would end up claiming 20% of that loss.  This isn’t right either. Does anyone have a solution that will give me the proper credit for financing this cash business without falsly taxing me? Also, how does one "shop" for an accountant.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am an 80% holder in an 80/20 partnership and have made loans to the partnership via credit cards held in my name.  Could someone explain to me how this should be accounted for from an income pespective?   Specifically, the interest though it is charged to me, should be a business expense should it not?   The way it is set up now, I am writing checks to myself and then paying the credit card bills from my personal account.  This means I’m liable for personal income taxes on all amounts. Also, the debt is not charged to the partnership, so the minority partner doesn’t share his part of the liability.  I know this isn’t right. My accountant (which was just retained last year) reclassed one card that I had specifically registered to the business, as a personal obligation (because my name was guaranteeing it) and reclassed all payments to that card as guaranteed payments to me, yet all expenses on the card were business related. If I were to reclass all of these credit card accounts to the business, it would result in a net loss for this year, and my partner would end up claiming 20% of that loss.  This isn’t right either. Does anyone have a solution that will give me the proper credit for financing this cash business without falsly taxing me?

Without more facts I am hesitant to make any recomendation, however I will say that it *appears* that something is not being accounted for correctly.  You need local professional help. Also, how does one "shop" for an accountant.

I would suggest you ask your attorney, banker, insurance agent, business friends, etc for referrals.  Then meet with a few and chose the one you feel most comfortable with.  Do NOT price shop or you will almost always get what you pay for.  However just because the person is the most expensive does NOT mean they are the best. Drew Edmundson, CPA (NC) to reply remove NOSPAM

Response:

It is a hassle.  What I have done is set up term loans from the LLC to me personally at a fixed interest rate.  The LLC gets a fixed payment schedule, the interest is deductible to the business and there is less accounting involved. However, I have been careful not to set up the loans with anywhere near a credit card interest rate.  Chances are I will pay down my personal credit cards faster than the LLC will pay off the term note.  Declare the interest income as interest income on your personal return and take the 80% interest expense through the business. The best way is to have a credit card issued under the name of the business and use that for all business related charges.  However, my personal credit cards have a much higher credit limit than my business credit card, so for those large purchases it ends up on the personal card. Word of mouth is the best way to shop for an accountant.  Ask other business people in the community who they use and if they are happy with the service. — Eric Schueler South Beach Business Services, LLC P.O. Box 425 Grayland, WA 98547 Remove the dash (-) when replying to this E-mail address – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am an 80% holder in an 80/20 partnership and have made loans to the partnership via credit cards held in my name.  Could someone explain to me how this should be accounted for from an income pespective? Specifically, the interest though it is charged to me, should be a business expense should it not? The way it is set up now, I am writing checks to myself and then paying the credit card bills from my personal account.  This means I’m liable for personal income taxes on all amounts. Also, the debt is not charged to the partnership, so the minority partner doesn’t share his part of the liability.  I know this isn’t right. My accountant (which was just retained last year) reclassed one card that I had specifically registered to the business, as a personal obligation (because my name was guaranteeing it) and reclassed all payments to that card as guaranteed payments to me, yet all expenses on the card were business related. If I were to reclass all of these credit card accounts to the business, it would result in a net loss for this year, and my partner would end up claiming 20% of that loss.  This isn’t right either. Does anyone have a solution that will give me the proper credit for financing this cash business without falsly taxing me? Also, how does one "shop" for an accountant.

Response:

The easiest solution to me would be for you to present your credit card bill to the partnership on a monthly basis for reimbursement.  The partnership would issue a check to you (no 1099 though) and you would pay the bill.  As long as you can justify the business nature of the reimbursed expenses you should have no problem with the IRS should your partnership ever come under audit.  You mention interest expense, this would be treated as above but make sure you’re only reimbursed for the portion of interest related to the business expenses. As far as sharing a loss with your partner, that’s decided in the partnership agreement.  You can have different sharing of losses and gains as long as it is set up in the partnership agreement. How to shop for an accountant?  Recommendations from friends, other business people.  Look for someone with an understanding of your business (I.e. retail, manufacturing, real estate…etc.) and someone who you feel comfortable with and can talk to.  An accountant (CPA) can be more than a bookkeeper or tax preparer.  A good CPA can help you set-up your business, introduce you to more customers, help your business productivity and cash flow.  As well as personal financial planning.  Good luck in your search. Greg Chilcote, CPA

Response:

Question:

Hi, Does anyone know of an accounting package that will accept 9 digits before the decimal; handle and track investments; and is Y2k compliant? I would like a personal acctg. package, but none that I know of can handle the above.  A relative needs this for her boss’s personal finances. Thanks for any help.

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Nine digits before the decimal?!?!?!  I can’t even comprehend that one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Does anyone know of an accounting package that will accept 9 digits before the decimal; handle and track investments; and is Y2k compliant? I would like a personal acctg. package, but none that I know of can handle the above.  A relative needs this for her boss’s personal finances. Thanks for any help.

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Not in yen, you wouldn’t! Tim Scheidler – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s the matter Alan, never do accounting in Lire?  <grin Nine digits for personal finances…I would love to be in that position regardless of the currency. |Nine digits before the decimal?!?!?!  I can’t even comprehend that one. | | |Hi, | |Does anyone know of an accounting package that will accept 9 digits |before the decimal; handle and track investments; and is Y2k compliant? |I would like a personal acctg. package, but none that I know of can |handle the above.  A relative needs this for her boss’s personal |finances. | |Thanks for any help. | J. Ime  (Reverse domain *&* suffix letters to respond by e-mail)

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MAS 90 from State Of The Art can do 9 digits before the decimal, but requires you to break the entries down to 8 digits before the decimal.  I have several clients that do this.  You would need to record 5 entries for 80,000,000.00 to input 400,000,000.00, but the system would maintain the correct number and print on the trial balance and financial statements. If you need to regularly post these numbers, Acuity Financials can record numbers even larger but comes at a premium cost. Hope this helps, John Kehrel Kreischer, Miller & Co. Philadelphia Area – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Does anyone know of an accounting package that will accept 9 digits before the decimal; handle and track investments; and is Y2k compliant? I would like a personal acctg. package, but none that I know of can handle the above.  A relative needs this for her boss’s personal finances. Thanks for any help.

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Ms. Haldeman, I was just looking in my Money Help file.  MS Money will support 12 digits before the decimal. I would think Quicken would match that too. So tell your friend to go ahead and use one of these packages!  No, it cannot handle complex financial transactions such as the ones you hear of on Wall St and a feature that such a person may want.  But itis getting up there – it can now handle short sales. HS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Does anyone know of an accounting package that will accept 9 digits before the decimal; handle and track investments; and is Y2k compliant? I would like a personal acctg. package, but none that I know of can handle the above.  A relative needs this for her boss’s personal finances. Thanks for any help.

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