Question:

    Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children."  It is not, as those who make the statement know very well.  It’s owed to the mothers of the children.  However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.   —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —

Response:

    Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children."  It is not, as those who make the statement know very well.  It’s owed to the mothers of the children.  However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.

The other usual lie is in this article too – Claiming how the CS program "collected" millions of dollars.  Most of that money is paid voluntarily by fathers and the CS program does have to lift a finger to "collect" any of it.  It’s total garbage for any state CS program, supported by federal laws mandating employer garnishment orders, to take credit for actions they never do.

Response:

This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.

I’ve heard of cases where the moment a guy gets out of jail the DA slaps him with a felony non-payment of child support charge. Of course, the idea that non-payment of a debt should be a felony is ridiculous and overreaching. Criminalizing historically non-criminal conduct is a recent fetish of legislatures across the country. Check out www.overcriminalized.com.

Response:

    Nebraska is 10 years statute of limitations, Iowa has no statute of limitations….and Iowa is one of the BIG offenders of abusing men.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. T

Response:

  I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude   just has a criminal record. Gotcha.     It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction   for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender"     It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other   states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go   directly to jail.     Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free"   card does work.  Wish I had one of those…     California has a ‘three strikes’ law.  The first two have to be violent   felonies, but the third does not have to be violent.     Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent,   also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form.  I mean, c’mon,   if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I   questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult.   If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions,  it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’     —   Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?

Response:

  If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions,  it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’

It could just as easily be felony conviction of "failure to pay" one’s CS…

Response:

LMAO! It is NEVER about the kids! It is about politics. There has been some form of support enforcement program available for YEARS. So how is it that the government officials who ARE RESPONSIBLE for enforcing the support orders in the first place ever let the arrearage in this case reach more than $43,000??? Incompetance, that’s how! So now to cover their incompetence, they point the finger at "dead-beat dad’s:"! Quite correct, if the man is in Jail, then he wont be able to pay ANYTHING. and, as usual, the children will suffer – right along with the dad – while some politician cites "vicotry" ‘in the best interests of the child". Given the other stories about ‘lost" child support funds, I suspect that all the government is doing is using this as a cash grab. the money will eventually be collected, but the system will "mysteriously" lose the money somehow! So, again, the father suffers, and the children suffer. What a load of crap. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back.  ~Author Unknown

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy.  I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments.  This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.

Oh yeah, that is probaly a right assumption. I thought the habitual thing was CS related, not just over all criminal record. My bad. lol

Response:

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????

I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy.  I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments.  This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies. How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?

State laws vary in making that determination.  Most have laws keeping the CS judgement active for a 7-10 year period.  After that the CS judgment can be re-upped for an additional  7-10 year period.  So, in theory, the state can continue to go after the obligor forever.

Response:

I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free" card does work.  Wish I had one of those…

California has a ‘three strikes’ law.  The first two have to be violent felonies, but the third does not have to be violent. Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent, also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form.  I mean, c’mon, if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult. — Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?   "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????   How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?   T   Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" . The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined. I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha.

It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free" card does work.  Wish I had one of those…

Response:

Depends on what state you’re in. Some don’t allow for collection of arrearages afert three years…some 20, some, as Dusty said, no limit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T As I understand it..  there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS.  So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?   "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????   How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?   T   Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" .  The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.

I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him? "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?

It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T

Response:

    There is probably a lot in play that isn’t being said here.     He may have had an order he was paying on ( same here 1987 order…lot of confusion involved with changes in custody back and forth ), she contacts CSE or CSRU and they get involved ( automatically, the amounts seem to take on astronomical proportions) with the state suddenly impuning wages that may or may not exist and may or may not ( but most likely ) inflate those wages, add on what the state says has been rendered to CP for support services, WIC, HHS services for food, health, dental, legal ( and it keeps adding ), plus interest ( Iowa tags on an additional 10% annually to arrearages ).     It is very possible this poor schmuck has nothing, never had anything, and now he never will. CSRU can hound you to the grave unless you can derail them. In my case, I have been denied services by Legal Aid ( although Iowa did give me an attorney that quit one day before the initial court hearing, leaving me to represent myself ), Volunteer Lawyers have refused assistance ( lawyers are required to do so much Pro Bono work annually, I have been told ) because it is an interstate case, Iowa refuses to relinquish any claims to jurisdiction, even though I have never been a resident of Iowa, the divorce was not in Iowa, and no one ( not the ex or the children ) reside in Iowa any longer….and they are in violation of 28 USC 1738A ( also known as the "Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act" ).     So, in short, they get to change the rules, reinterpret law to suit their purpose, and they will do everything ( including breaking laws and rules ) to keep the man paying. I have YET to see a single mother be pursued in this fashion, making this a very gender based ( biased, prejudiced ) system. If you can find ANY enforcements of this sort and extreme on record being done against a woman, I’d like to see it.     Anyone?     It ain’t just Michigan, and it ain’t just the guys making in the new reports. This stuff is happening every day, and from my observation ( jaded as it is ), it is usually the guys that have paid or have made the effort that are being reamed the worst. The true "deadbeats" are seldom ever heard from.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Response:

    Iowa has no statute of limitations, and so may Michigan. They can harass a man to his grave and take anything of value left in his estate at his death to satisfy their liens, levies, and arrearages.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

Response:

    <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?           "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????       How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?     T     Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" .  The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.  

Response:

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

As I understand it..  there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS.  So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures.

Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website?

"McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point.

I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same

If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?

Response:

Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.   —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —

Response:

Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart

Todd Dick Mac? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler.

So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said.

"It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court.

Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back.   ~Author Unknown

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids. Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed.

I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right?

LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. T

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Question:

I’m so sorry that things are going so badly for you right now.  :-( *hugs* Used2Be

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m back after a short break from posting here. I’ve tried to get my life on track (i’m lonely, have a low income job, was out of shape, in bad debt, no real family) and over the past few months lost about 10-15 lbs, dress better, got back to college after a four year absence (for accounting). I’ve been trying to get my finances in order but now it’s just getting the best of me. I make so little income that I don’t have much left over at the end of the month. I still owe $500 to credit cards, $200 in due bills, and a terrible $2200 to MBNA Bank at 26.99% interest. I was such a fool a few years ago and I let that company get the best of me over a stupid computer. It’s tough paying off things myself because I make only $7.50 an hour, plus I go to school full time now and I’ve been winging this alone (with some help from my mom who recently made strides to putting our family back together). But it’s so hard. I’ve cut so many bills/luxuries/etc and once I get my back debts paid my monthly bills will be $825 a month (rent, all bills, luxuries). I bring home around $1050 a month so things are still a little too tight. Unfortunately I work at a terrible job and they just took away our .50 more per hour incentive and now i’m stuck back at 7.50 an hour. I’m getting straight A’s in college but two weeks ago, on the way home from college I got into my first car accident and totalled my car (raining, tight turn, not used to driving back from college yet, skid into the other lane and got hit by a truck). My car was totaled and I had to pay $115 to the towing company and turn over my title (this was a 1987 piece of crap car) but I had to borrow money to pay the towing company. Every day you leave it there after a week they charge you $25 a day. Thankfully my mom is letting me use her car until I figure out what to do. I must say driving again was very scary for the first few days. That was my first accident in seven years of driving. My college changed me from in sponsor tuition to out of sponsor tuiton and I went from getting a $170 refund to owing $540. This was because when I moved 2 1/2 years ago (my first ever apartment) I never got a "moving permit" and my local taxes were messed up. So, for the past few weeks i’ve been trying to prove that I live in District but the Administration Office talks to me with such disrespect and talks down to me like i’m some child. All I wanted was information on how to fix the problem and they talk to me terribly. Fixing the problem involved paying MONEY, for the permit, paying the local taxes I owed plus late fees ($60 total), and now I have to wait for a copy of the tax bill and per capita receipt, whatever the heck that is. Today, things got better… I got a letter from the District Justice, the cop is giving me a ticket for the accident… "driving faster than I should have in dangerous weather." Fine was $25.00. After all other costs… $99.50. So there goes some more money I was going to use to try and get out of debt. So it’s not only good enough that I lost my car, lost $115 for the towing, but now pay another $100. Sure it was my fault but come on. Right after the accident happened, witnesses that live around the area said there is always an accident there when the weather is bad. They have no signs, it’s a terrible turn and to tell you the truth I was only going 35. My car just sucked and I still can’t believe it happened, as I said i’d never had an accident before, ever (i’m 25). So now i’m hating life completely again — things just keep putting me down, my life keeps getting (at least feeling) worse. I owe money for local taxes. I owe money for a moving permit. I owe money for per capita. My college refund (that I was counting on) will never come. I don’t have my own car. I live by myself. I make $7.50 an hour and hate my job. Everything is always my fault. No matter what i’m doing, trying my best to *do the right thing*, *meet new people*, *get back to college*, things always try and stop me. People always want more production from you… and want to pay you less money. You always owe someone money and they want it *now*. When they owe you money, you get it when they want to give it to you. Life is just not fair. And i’m not talking a little unfair, I’m saying that this just is not right. And to top it off I haven’t had a relationship in two years, have few friends, and people (women) just aren’t interested in me. Not good looking enough, smart enough, don’t have connections of friends, I have no money. Man. Sitting home on a Friday night alone is one thing, doing it when you have no money (but work all the time) is worse. Being in debt forever makes it *even worse*. I just hate everything right now. I’m going to sleep. Thanks for listening.

Response:

Hi, I’m back after a short break from posting here. I’ve tried to get my life on track (i’m lonely, have a low income job, was out of shape, in bad debt, no real family) and over the past few months lost about 10-15 lbs, dress better, got back to college after a four year absence (for accounting). I’ve been trying to get my finances in order but now it’s just getting the best of me. I make so little income that I don’t have much left over at the end of the month. I still owe $500 to credit cards, $200 in due bills, and a terrible $2200 to MBNA Bank at 26.99% interest. I was such a fool a few years ago and I let that company get the best of me over a stupid computer. It’s tough paying off things myself because I make only $7.50 an hour, plus I go to school full time now and I’ve been winging this alone (with some help from my mom who recently made strides to putting our family back together). But it’s so hard. I’ve cut so many bills/luxuries/etc and once I get my back debts paid my monthly bills will be $825 a month (rent, all bills, luxuries). I bring home around $1050 a month so things are still a little too tight. Unfortunately I work at a terrible job and they just took away our .50 more per hour incentive and now i’m stuck back at 7.50 an hour. I’m getting straight A’s in college but two weeks ago, on the way home from college I got into my first car accident and totalled my car (raining, tight turn, not used to driving back from college yet, skid into the other lane and got hit by a truck). My car was totaled and I had to pay $115 to the towing company and turn over my title (this was a 1987 piece of crap car) but I had to borrow money to pay the towing company. Every day you leave it there after a week they charge you $25 a day. Thankfully my mom is letting me use her car until I figure out what to do. I must say driving again was very scary for the first few days. That was my first accident in seven years of driving. My college changed me from in sponsor tuition to out of sponsor tuiton and I went from getting a $170 refund to owing $540. This was because when I moved 2 1/2 years ago (my first ever apartment) I never got a "moving permit" and my local taxes were messed up. So, for the past few weeks i’ve been trying to prove that I live in District but the Administration Office talks to me with such disrespect and talks down to me like i’m some child. All I wanted was information on how to fix the problem and they talk to me terribly. Fixing the problem involved paying MONEY, for the permit, paying the local taxes I owed plus late fees ($60 total), and now I have to wait for a copy of the tax bill and per capita receipt, whatever the heck that is. Today, things got better… I got a letter from the District Justice, the cop is giving me a ticket for the accident… "driving faster than I should have in dangerous weather." Fine was $25.00. After all other costs… $99.50. So there goes some more money I was going to use to try and get out of debt. So it’s not only good enough that I lost my car, lost $115 for the towing, but now pay another $100. Sure it was my fault but come on. Right after the accident happened, witnesses that live around the area said there is always an accident there when the weather is bad. They have no signs, it’s a terrible turn and to tell you the truth I was only going 35. My car just sucked and I still can’t believe it happened, as I said i’d never had an accident before, ever (i’m 25). So now i’m hating life completely again — things just keep putting me down, my life keeps getting (at least feeling) worse. I owe money for local taxes. I owe money for a moving permit. I owe money for per capita. My college refund (that I was counting on) will never come. I don’t have my own car. I live by myself. I make $7.50 an hour and hate my job. Everything is always my fault. No matter what i’m doing, trying my best to *do the right thing*, *meet new people*, *get back to college*, things always try and stop me. People always want more production from you… and want to pay you less money. You always owe someone money and they want it *now*. When they owe you money, you get it when they want to give it to you. Life is just not fair. And i’m not talking a little unfair, I’m saying that this just is not right. And to top it off I haven’t had a relationship in two years, have few friends, and people (women) just aren’t interested in me. Not good looking enough, smart enough, don’t have connections of friends, I have no money. Man. Sitting home on a Friday night alone is one thing, doing it when you have no money (but work all the time) is worse. Being in debt forever makes it *even worse*. I just hate everything right now. I’m going to sleep. Thanks for listening.

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Question:

Gender Gap in Earnings Persists Despite Wage Increases with Education 7/19/2002 – While education leads to significant increases in wages for all workers, increases in men’s salaries still outpace increases for women’s salaries at every level, according to a census report released yesterday as reported in the Washington Post. The report, which was the first to measure the benefits of additional schooling on wages, concludes that this gap in earnings has increased dramatically in recent years with women’s wages still lagging behind men’s wages at every level of education. "It’s been a decade of remarkable progress in reducing poverty rates and increasing income

Question:

Bill Stewart said, on the dbs mailing list, The price of goods for which credit card payments are common adjusts to a level that reflects the cost of the payment system. For the most part, the credit card companies require the merchant to hide the credit card charges in the purchase price, so buyers pay part of it whether they’re using the card or not, though sometimes merchants make the fee explicit and charge less for paying in cash.

There should be a big RICO prosecution, or class action lawsuit, to recapture all that money that has been ripped off from non- credit-card users, and return it to them.   Or at least, stop the current system from continuing. Todd

Response:

Bill Stewart said, on the dbs mailing list, The price of goods for which credit card payments are common adjusts to a level that reflects the cost of the payment system. For the most part, the credit card companies require the merchant to hide the credit card charges in the purchase price, so buyers pay part of it whether they’re using the card or not, though sometimes merchants make the fee explicit and charge less for paying in cash. There should be a big RICO prosecution, or class action lawsuit, to recapture all that money that has been ripped off from non- credit-card users, and return it to them. Or at least, stop the current system from continuing.

And those costs include billion$ due to theft. Credit card companies do everything possible to cover up those losses. I guess it is easier to just add the costs onto next month’s bills and forget about them, than it would be to admit there is a problem, that it’s their fault, and to build some real security or means of enforcement into the system. Regards, Irv

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Bill Stewart said, on the dbs mailing list, The price of goods for which credit card payments are common adjusts to a level that reflects the cost of the payment system. For the most part, the credit card companies require the merchant to hide the credit card charges in the purchase price, so buyers pay part of it whether they’re using the card or not, though sometimes merchants make the fee explicit and charge less for paying in cash. There should be a big RICO prosecution, or class action lawsuit, to recapture all that money that has been ripped off from non- credit-card users, and return it to them. Or at least, stop the current system from continuing.

I have built into my pricing schedule, the cost of the water bill, which for all purposes is one toilet and one sink.  This fee structure extends to all who enter my premises (and some that never do) and use my services even if they don’t use the bathroom.  I also provide coffee, cokes and bottled water to my clients if they so desire, which said costs to provide are built into the fee structure of every client, even those that do not drink coffee, cokes or water.  I even have to build in to my fee structure the cost of liability insurance, even though no one (knocking on wood) has filed a claim against me.  I too accept payment by charge card, and those fees are, once again, built into the fee structure, even for those paying by check. Gosh, I hope the RICO folks don’t come after me. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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Or at least, stop the current system from continuing. And those costs include billion$ due to theft. Credit card companies do everything possible to cover up those losses. I guess it is easier to just add the costs onto next month’s bills and forget about them, than it would be to admit there is a problem, that it’s their fault, and to build some real security or means of enforcement into the system. Regards, Irv

Many of us who don’t borrow, and never intend to borrow in the future, applaud this phenomenon, mislabeled "Identity Theft" by the banks.  I think it is GREAT if lots of fraudsters load down the banks with lots of false credit applications.   Serves them right. http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/132/business/Large_scale_identity_t… "Large-scale identity theft is painful reminder of risk" Heh heh!  Whose risk?  The bank’s risk!   To quote Bill Stewart’s post earlier today on this list, The price of goods for which credit card payments are common adjusts to a level that reflects the cost of the payment system. For the most part, the credit card companies require the merchant to hide the credit card charges in the purchase price, so buyers pay part of it whether they’re using the card or not, though sometimes merchants make the fee explicit and charge less for paying in cash.

There should be a big RICO prosecution, or class action lawsuit, to recapture all that money that has been ripped off from non- credit-card users, and return it to them.   Nothin’ personal.  Just business. Todd

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Non credit card users get the shaft

How?  Vendors pay about 2% for Telecheck, 2% for credit cards.  How are non credit card users getting the shaft?  For cash is this figuring in the cost of added security, conterfeit currency, etc.?   —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Remember even if you borrow nothing you could still be a vicitim of identity theft.     Fraud is not limited to those who borrow.   Anyone and everyone could be a victim of identity theft.   A long time ago in a galaxy far far way Many of us who don’t borrow, and never intend to borrow in the future, applaud this phenomenon, mislabeled "Identity Theft" by the banks.  I think it is GREAT if lots of fraudsters load down the banks with lots of false credit applications.   Serves them right.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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A long time ago in a galaxy far far way  "Paul A. Thomas" I have built into my pricing schedule, the cost of the water bill, which for all purposes is one toilet and one sink.  

When you look at the water are you including the water for your sprinkler system?    Our city charges for that too. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Remember even if you borrow nothing you could still be a vicitim of identity theft.     Fraud is not limited to those who borrow.   Anyone and everyone could be a victim of identity theft.  

Bwa ha ha!  Tell me why I should care, if somebody fills out bank loan applications with my name and address and rips off the bank? You have fallen victim to fear-and-FUD from the banking industry, which is seeking nothing but its own benefit.  The squeals of pain by the individuals whose names and credit were used, only exist because they borrow and rely on credit cards. BTW: when my debit card stops getting accepted at motels, I will just stop traveling. And when I can’t buy stuff on websites with my debit card I will just stop buying on websites.  No skin off my nose, whatsoever. Todd

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Non credit card users get the shaft How?  Vendors pay about 2% for Telecheck, 2% for credit cards.  How are non credit card users getting the shaft?  For cash is this figuring in the cost of added security, conterfeit currency, etc.?  

Nobody I know incurs anything like 2% of the gross for their handling of cash.  Sheesh.  That’s a ridiculous figure for small business.  Maybe it applies for giant corps. who pay $60,000 a year salaries to people who fondle their piles of cash. And the costs of banking are FAR more than 2% http://www.gldialtone.com/transaction04.htm http://globalresearch.ca/articles/PET108A.html etc Anyway, when I pay cash at the grocers, I have a much greater hassle of cash than the cashier. Probably 20 seconds, on my side vs. 5 seconds for them, because they’re already setup with a cash drawer and coin dispenser.  When the STORE pays me a 2% discount for MY LABOR then I will listen to their complaint about THEIR labor.   So, what are you saying?  That non-credit card users should rightfully, continue to share in the costs of credit card discounts imposed on retailers? Ridiculous. Todd Boyle CPA  9745-128th Ave NE  Kirkland WA International Accounting Services, LLC  www.gldialtone.com 425-827-3107  AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net

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Because if your identity is stolen it will take you many years to straighten it out. If someone fills out an application with your name you will still be fighting this many years from now.   Ultimately it is your name they have stolen, the entity in question will go after you not the perp. A long time ago in a galaxy far far way Bwa ha ha!  Tell me why I should care, if somebody fills out bank loan applications with my name and address and rips off the bank?

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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A long time ago in a galaxy far far way You have fallen victim to fear-and-FUD from the banking industry, which is seeking nothing but its own benefit.  The squeals of pain by the individuals whose names and credit were used, only exist because they borrow and rely on credit cards.

The point you are missing is even if you never borrow anything someone else can do this in your name.   The one that will be chased is you not them.   BTW: when my debit card stops getting accepted at motels, I will just stop traveling. And when I can’t buy stuff on websites with my debit card I will just stop buying on websites.  No skin off my nose, whatsoever.

And when you get summonses for stuff that is not yours….. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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A long time ago in a galaxy far far way Nobody I know incurs anything like 2% of the gross for their handling of cash.

You don’t live in a city where you need security do you? You don’t work at a place that has been a victim of roberry?   —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have built into my pricing schedule, the cost of the water bill, which for all purposes is one toilet and one sink.  This fee structure extends to all who enter my premises (and some that never do) and use my services even if they don’t use the bathroom.  I also provide coffee, cokes and bottled water to my clients if they so desire, which said costs to provide are built into the fee structure of every client, even those that do not drink coffee, cokes or water.  I even have to build in to my fee structure the cost of liability insurance, even though no one (knocking on wood) has filed a claim against me.  I too accept payment by charge card, and those fees are, once again, built into the fee structure, even for those paying by check. Gosh, I hope the RICO folks don’t come after me.

Paul, agreed not everybody wants to use your bathroom, but it is there in case of emergency need. However, every client has to pay somehow, so why not charge those who choose the more expensive – for you – route? Often the card % can absorb a major part of the profit on a  sale. In Europe a supplier often makes a surcharge on credit card payment, doesn’t that happen in the US? In the distant past restaurant diners who paid by card were in the minority, and any restaurant owner with a bit of would have realized that card users were much less profitable than non-users. These days, with the majority of diners using cards, the result is that prices have been upped to cover card usage costs. Roger

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A long time ago in a galaxy far far way  "Paul A. Thomas" I have built into my pricing schedule, the cost of the water bill, which for all purposes is one toilet and one sink. When you look at the water are you including the water for your sprinkler system?    Our city charges for that too.

No sprinklers in my building.  The water bill is based on volume used, and unless/until there is a fire, no water flows through a sprinkler. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have built into my pricing schedule, the cost of the water bill, which for all purposes is one toilet and one sink.  This fee structure extends to all who enter my premises (and some that never do) and use my services even if they don’t use the bathroom.  I also provide coffee, cokes and bottled water to my clients if they so desire, which said costs to provide are built into the fee structure of every client, even those that do not drink coffee, cokes or water.  I even have to build in to my fee structure the cost of liability insurance, even though no one (knocking on wood) has filed a claim against me.  I too accept payment by charge card, and those fees are, once again, built into the fee structure, even for those paying by check. Gosh, I hope the RICO folks don’t come after me. Paul, agreed not everybody wants to use your bathroom, but it is there in case of emergency need.

And, if I were to put a coin opperated stall in there I’d lose more business than I’d make from the additional revenues. However, every client has to pay somehow, so why not charge those who choose the more expensive – for you – route? Often the card % can absorb a major part of the profit on a  sale. In Europe a supplier often makes a surcharge on credit card payment, doesn’t that happen in the US?

No, it doesn’t, and I believe in most states it’s prohibited now.  A merchant can offer a cash discount, but not add to the cost for charge card use.  Merchants can, however, limit charge card purchases to amounts above certain limits, like no charge card sales less than $10. In the distant past restaurant diners who paid by card were in the minority, and any restaurant owner with a bit of would have realized that card users were much less profitable than non-users. These days, with the majority of diners using cards, the result is that prices have been upped to cover card usage costs.

And that’s fine as far as I see it. There is a fundamental difference between Europe and the US in restaurants (and maybe lots of other establishments), one that I noticed when stationed over there awhile back.  McDonalds charged me for a catsup packet in Amsterdam, in the US that would be treasonous, and would cost the company billions in sales as consumers flock to Burger King, who, no doubt, has the catsup price built in to their cost of a Whopper. Perception is everything.  The perception of a bargain needs to be there, the reality of an "ala cart" pricing structure isn’t well accepted here. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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However, every client has to pay somehow, so why not charge those who choose the more expensive – for you – route? Often the card % can absorb a major part of the profit on a  sale. In Europe a supplier often makes a surcharge on credit card payment, doesn’t that happen in the US? No, it doesn’t, and I believe in most states it’s prohibited now.  A merchant can offer a cash discount, but not add to the cost for charge card use.  Merchants can, however, limit charge card purchases to amounts above certain limits, like no charge card sales less than $10.

So a person who does not pay by credit card can avoid the credit card charge built into prices by getting a discount. Fine. In the distant past restaurant diners who paid by card were in the minority, and any restaurant owner with a bit of would have realized that card users were much less profitable than non-users. These days, with the majority of diners using cards, the result is that prices have been upped to cover card usage costs. And that’s fine as far as I see it.

And which why I prefer restaurants which do not accept credit cards. They can give better value. There is a fundamental difference between Europe and the US in restaurants (and maybe lots of other establishments), one that I noticed when stationed over there awhile back.  McDonalds charged me for a catsup packet in Amsterdam, in the US that would be treasonous, and would cost the company billions in sales as consumers flock to Burger King, who, no doubt, has the catsup price built in to their cost of a Whopper.

Are US customers that dumb, or just the burger eaters? Perception is everything.  The perception of a bargain needs to be there, the reality of an "ala cart" pricing structure isn’t well accepted here.

That’s odd. I always thought that in your barber shops or whatever you call them, there was a separate charge for everything, left side, right side, top, back, fringe, eyebrows, hairspray etc. Roger

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Hi Paul Interesting that you bring up the ketchup packets. When I explicitly ask for TWO packets of ketchup, at most places they give me in excess of 6 packets, except McDonalds, where even if you ask twice, you still don’t get it, and no napkins either. I knew the manager of one store and mentioned to him the number of packs of ketchup I normally get when I ask for only TWO packets. Interestingly enough, less than one week later, and every visit since, I get the exact amount I ask for, PLUS a napkin, even if I don’t ask for one. TTUL Gary

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Hi Paul Interesting that you bring up the ketchup packets.

Can’t keep them down?

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Because if your identity is stolen it will take you many years to straighten it out. If someone fills out an application with your name you will still be fighting this many years from now. Ultimately it is your name they have stolen, the entity in question will go after you not the perp.

Absolutely. And guess who gets to pay the lawyers’ fees to get you out of trouble? You do. The banks pay *their* lawyers by reducing the amount of interest they pay on your savings. So you wind up paying that as well. Regards, Irv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A long time ago in a galaxy far far way Bwa ha ha!  Tell me why I should care, if somebody fills out bank loan applications with my name and address and rips off the bank?

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A long time ago in a galaxy far far way You have fallen victim to fear-and-FUD from the banking industry, which is seeking nothing but its own benefit.  The squeals of pain by the individuals whose names and credit were used, only exist because they borrow and rely on credit cards. The point you are missing is even if you never borrow anything someone else can do this in your name.   The one that will be chased is you not them.  

Yes — I would not be surprised. Whenever the banks’ easy mailbox money stops coming in the mail (interest and fees levies on everybody elses’ transactions), the ruling Kleptocracy first instinct is coercion — send out the police with truncheons. Good thing I’m not black.  The police kill blacks about every other month here in the Seattle area.  Whew. Since I’m not black, they probably would not mistake my wallet for a gun, when I try to show my drivers license… BTW: when my debit card stops getting accepted at motels, I will just stop traveling. And when I can’t buy stuff on websites with my debit card I will just stop buying on websites.  No skin off my nose, whatsoever. And when you get summonses for stuff that is not yours…..

Now to answer your question directly, the Bank will have a hell of a time proving that I ever applied for or received some loan that I did not actually receive.  What you are saying is just nonsense.  It won’t happen. The bank would burn up a lot of my time but it will burn up a lot MORE of their own time.  They would find their pursuit of foreclosure or repossessions perfectly futile since I would never have possessed the goods in the first place. I have plenty of time on my hands and will love making a huge, public spectacle of this kind of unjust filing. Writing satire, lampooning public companies and officials, is a hobby of mine. After winning whatever lawsuit the bank brought against me for their losses in this "Identity Theft" case, I might obtain damages, in a countersuit. Once you have tasted freedom, Janette, you would never accept those chains you’re bound up in, those chains of fear, TOdd Todd Boyle CPA  9745-128th Ave NE  Kirkland WA International Accounting Services, LLC  www.gldialtone.com 425-827-3107  AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net

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I have built into my pricing schedule, the cost of the water bill, which for all purposes is one toilet and one sink.  This fee structure extends to all who enter my premises (and some that never do) and use my services even if they don’t use the bathroom.  I also provide coffee, cokes and bottled water… Gosh, I hope the RICO folks don’t come after me.

The difference is that since the earliest days of the credit card scam, the contract between merchant and card issuers prohibits the merchant (you) from charging the costs of the credit card back to the user of the credit card. http://www.tradeshop.com/master/surcharges.shtml Does your coffee vendor, or any other vendor have the chutzpah to impose such a provision??   The BANKS have actually got the chutzpah to make it ILLEGAL to charge back the fee to the credit card user!  Hummmphh!   how ridiculous.  No wonder so many kids have no respect for the law. Paul you are a CPA, you should understand the basic economics of this monstrosity which steals money from everybody, and gives it to the card industry and banks without choice. This industry primarily exists on its winnings from ignorant debtors, but like the gambling industry it has roared along at such stupendous amounts of money, it’s more or less accepted as part of the GNP.  But IMO, the fundamental ethics of the credit card mechanism are just this side of drug dealers, the gambling industry, alcohol, or other addictive entrapments, (taxes on stupidity) TOdd

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Paul you are a CPA, you should understand the basic economics of this monstrosity which steals money from everybody, and gives it to the card industry and banks without choice.

The choice is with the merchants, that can either offer to accept payment for goods and services via charge cards, or run the risk of losing some business by mot offering to accept plastic.  The merchants are driven by their own "cost/benefit" analysis on the cost to accept charge cards over the addditional sales or the potential lost sales.  Arguably in many businesses they aren’t needed, in others it is essential. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have built into my pricing schedule, the cost of the water bill, which for all purposes is one toilet and one sink.  This fee structure extends to all who enter my premises (and some that never do) and use my services even if they don’t use the bathroom.  I also provide coffee, cokes and bottled water… Gosh, I hope the RICO folks don’t come after me. The difference is that since the earliest days of the credit card scam, the contract between merchant and card issuers prohibits the merchant (you) from charging the costs of the credit card back to the user of the credit card. http://www.tradeshop.com/master/surcharges.shtml Does your coffee vendor, or any other vendor have the chutzpah to impose such a provision??

Sure, they do.  Coffee machine vendors doubtless have provisions that forbid you to buy supplies from other vendors.  Probably only observed in extreme breaches, but that sort of thing exists. The BANKS have actually got the chutzpah to make it ILLEGAL to charge back the fee to the credit card user!  Hummmphh!  how ridiculous.  No wonder so many kids have no respect for the law.

You get to charge back the fee in the cost structure of your goods; that’s always obviously the case.  If there’s no way to charge the fees on to customers, then it’s a dead loss, and the retailer would be stupid to get into the game in the first place. Maybe the latter is the case; it may be stupid to get into the game. — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/multiplexor.html The shortest distance between two puns is a straight line.

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The difference is that since the earliest days of the credit card scam, the contract between merchant and card issuers prohibits the merchant (you) from charging the costs of the credit card back to the user of the credit card. http://www.tradeshop.com/master/surcharges.shtml Does your coffee vendor, or any other vendor have the chutzpah to impose such a provision?? Sure, they do.  Coffee machine vendors doubtless have provisions that forbid you to buy supplies from other vendors.  Probably only observed in extreme breaches, but that sort of thing exists.

No, you’re addressing a different question. You still have not shown me a vendor who FORCES you to absorb the cost of a particular product rather than charging the customer for it. Now can you see how vulnerable our society is, to these kinds of pernicious scams?   The best and brightest on the accounting lists can’t even follow the pea, under the shell, Todd

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The choice is with the merchants, that can either offer to accept payment for goods and services via charge cards, or run the risk of losing some business by mot offering to accept plastic.  The merchants are driven by their own "cost/benefit" analysis on the cost to accept charge cards over the addditional sales or the potential lost sales.

Right.  Now our observactions of the facts are perfectly synchronized. Do you still think this is freedom?  Do you think the free market system is supposed to work this way?  I think the credit card system is a rotten phenomenon that has gotten itself insinuated into the economy to the point no retailer can fight back. Let’s discuss the actual issue. Please justify for me, why a retailer should be prohibited by the police powers of the state, from charging users of American Express or VISA or other plastic, with a surcharge to recover the 3% to 5% cost born by the retailer? Please advise me why *non-credit card users* are not entitled to recover the costs of credit cards that have been unjustly charged to us in the form of higher prices. Todd

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know! How about "Soggy Guy {tm}"? You go to the Everglades in the Florida Keys and set up a giant figure made of straw, and then charge people to watch it absorb swamp water until it can no longer support its own weight and slumps over. Here in Lemuria we have an annual Moss Person festival. It pretty much goes all year. I found a book at the goodwill store the other day that was printed here in Portland Oregon in 1919, and he shows that all the old-testament events actually occurred on the west coast of north america, the northwest in particular.  Joshua died in the Siskiyous.

That’s right, the Cascadia/Lemuria debate has been going on for centuries. Bet you didn’t know that Portland and Seattle were once named Gog and Magog, now did you? Onan and I know–we just argue about which was which. I still think Seattle was Magog, but Onan respectfully–OK, NOT that respectfully–disagrees. HELP SETTLE THE ARGUMENT! Vote here on alt.slack–which gog is which? The Prophet Lilith — =====Her Ladyship Rev Dkr St Popess Lilith von Fraumench, Esquire===== ===Prophet===Corrective Phrenologist===Supreme Commandrix===Devivor=== ==SSUCC 4739 University Way NE #1302 Seattle WA 98105 (877)=381-9354== ====Web: ssucc.ragnarokr.com = foolspress.com = mp3.com/foolspress====

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 This year, more than 30,000 participants X $200 a pop makes a $6,000,000 burning man. how the FUCK did they lose money on this? Stang didn’t mention this, but Puzzling Evidence suffered a high-velocity crash so intense that they had to rebuild him.

I sure hope they made him better than he was.

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You are so wrong.  Don’t you know that burning Man made no money this year and actually lost money?  it really shows your immaturity that you think that it’s clever to criticize anything that grows beyond its humble beginnings as a sellout. Why don’t you try reading last falls’ issue of the Burning Man newsletter: an article by Larry addresses the knee-jerk questions about money that people who don’t understand the event are always raising. no money?  he should jack it up to $300 so he can break even, poor guy.

Duh. Any decent accountant/lawyer can make a non-profit look like its losing money. That’s how they get people to donate. The real financial status of a non-profit is almost always a mystery, and good accountants are paid lots of money to keep it that way. T.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  This year, more than 30,000 participants X $200 a pop makes a $6,000,000 burning man. how the FUCK did they lose money on this? Stang didn’t mention this, but Puzzling Evidence suffered a high-velocity crash so intense that they had to rebuild him. I sure hope they made him better than he was.

How does he deal with the running-in-slow-motion thing? — da Rev. Lance Boyle When correctly viewed, Everything is lewd. I could tell you things about Peter Pan And the Wizard of Oz – THERE’S A DIRTY OLD MAN!!! Before you buy.

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 This year, more than 30,000 participants X $200 a pop makes a $6,000,000 burning man. how the FUCK did they lose money on this?

 It’s a venerable show business tradition to claim that one lost money on a show or event. It convinces really stupid people that crews put together shows for the fun of it, with only altruistic motives. Hard to imagine, but it’s true, people are really that stupid. so, save the elephants, or I’ll give them guns… http://www.save-the-elephants.org/

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 This year, more than 30,000 participants X $200 a pop makes a $6,000,000 burning man. how the FUCK did they lose money on this?  It’s a venerable show business tradition to claim that one lost money on a show or event. It convinces really stupid people that crews put together shows for the fun of it, with only altruistic motives. Hard to imagine, but it’s true, people are really that stupid.

SHHHHHH. Damn it, pipe down…. The Prophet Lilith — =====Her Ladyship Rev Dkr St Popess Lilith von Fraumench, Esquire===== ===Prophet===Corrective Phrenologist===Supreme Commandrix===Devivor=== ==SSUCC 4739 University Way NE #1302 Seattle WA 98105 (877)=381-9354== ====Web: ssucc.ragnarokr.com = foolspress.com = mp3.com/foolspress====

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  This year, more than 30,000 participants X $200 a pop makes a $6,000,000 burning man. how the FUCK did they lose money on this? Stang didn’t mention this, but Puzzling Evidence suffered a high-velocity crash so intense that they had to rebuild him. I sure hope they made him better than he was. How does he deal with the running-in-slow-motion thing?

By making "ching-ching-ching" sounds from the side of his mouth, far as I’ve noticed. The Prophet Lilith — =====Her Ladyship Rev Dkr St Popess Lilith von Fraumench, Esquire===== ===Prophet===Corrective Phrenologist===Supreme Commandrix===Devivor=== ==SSUCC 4739 University Way NE #1302 Seattle WA 98105 (877)=381-9354== ====Web: ssucc.ragnarokr.com = foolspress.com = mp3.com/foolspress====

Response:

 This year, more than 30,000 participants X $200 a pop makes a $6,000,000 burning man. how the FUCK did they lose money on this?

Stang didn’t mention this, but Puzzling Evidence suffered a high-velocity crash so intense that they had to rebuild him. The Prophet Lilith — =====Her Ladyship Rev Dkr St Popess Lilith von Fraumench, Esquire===== ===Prophet===Corrective Phrenologist===Supreme Commandrix===Devivor=== ==SSUCC 4739 University Way NE #1302 Seattle WA 98105 (877)=381-9354== ====Web: ssucc.ragnarokr.com = foolspress.com = mp3.com/foolspress====

Response:

 graced us all with this gem of wisdom: Silicon Satan, a columnist for a San Francisco newspaper, the New Mission News, just wrote a vicious

Question:

We are starting to implement a new accounting program for our manufacturing company that has only used the G/L of an old dos based accounting program for the last 10 years. People are coming to me (IS Dept) to ask how they should go about implementing it. My idea was to just enter in all beginning balances and then start from there. But now the Purchasing Department wants to enter all open P.O.’s, which will mess up the beginning balances for A/P. Sales want to enter in all open invoices which would mess opening balances for A/R. And since we tracked our inventory manually and always added the beginning and ending balance at year end getting inventory up and running is a chore in itself with what sometimes seems no end in sight. Anyone have any ideas on how we should go about getting this program up and running seamlessly for a February 1 year end. TIA, Pete

Response:

Pete,     To start with, you probably will not be ready on Feb 1!!!! Sorry     Implementing is a major task (as you are finding and there should be or have been a LOT of discussion from your reseller on how to best move you from one spot to the other. It’s also probably beyond the scope of a NG answer/post.     This is a project management issue that requires knowledge about your company, the software being implemented, and what data issues are most important to your company for its operations. Each software brand has a different way to approach the answer. Luck,     Dana To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the address. http://www.tailored-computing.com

Response:

new accounting program for our manufacturing company that has only used the G/L of an old dos based accounting program

May we assume that there is no meaningful job cost or other management information presently being produced by that GL module? People are coming to me (IS Dept) to ask how they should go about implementing it. My idea was to just enter in all beginning balances and then start from there.

Sounds fine to me. But now the Purchasing Department wants to enter all open P.O.’s, which will mess up the beginning balances for A/P.

Well, if you have such eager beavers, count yourself lucky.  Run a 10-key and add up the impact, and post a summary entry.  It will save you a lot of work on the Accounts Payables, and furthermore, the monkey will have jumped miraculously, off YOUR back on errors. Sales want to enter in all open invoices which would mess opening balances for A/R.

Hmmmmm… well, still, seems like a pretty good deal for YOU.  Why don’t you let them do it? And since we tracked our inventory manually and always added the beginning and ending balance at year end getting inventory up and running is a chore in itself with what sometimes seems no end in sight.

That is a very tough area and I suspect, you may have NO ALTERNATIVE but to put a beginning physical inventory into the Items counts and valuse, and expect to post corrections as things become clearer.  There is no easy way to "Ease into" a complex inventory which is constantly changing. Anyone have any ideas on how we should go about getting this program up and running seamlessly for a February 1 year end. TIA, Pete

Plunge right in there and start rippin’ into it, you’re doing the right thing.   good luck.

Response:

But now the Purchasing Department wants to enter all open P.O.’s, which will mess up the beginning balances for A/P.

Quite reasonable.   Why should it mess up the beginning balances? Surely the software system must have some method of starting the system properly. Sales want to enter in all open invoices which would mess opening balances for A/R.

Same comments as above. And since we tracked our inventory manually and always added the beginning and ending balance at year end getting inventory up and running is a chore in itself with what sometimes seems no end in sight.

Yuppers.  Means you’re going to have to do a physical count somewhere either the day you go live with the inventory processing or shortly thereafter.  And expect to do lots of adjustments on your next physical count. Anyone have any ideas on how we should go about getting this program up and running seamlessly for a February 1 year end.

Feb 1?  You’re asking on Jan 21th.  Not a chance. Where’s the VP Finance or Chief Accountant or whatever.  They should be heavily involved in implementing and understanding this system. They’re the bean counters after all.  That person should be leading this implementation.  Not you.  No disrespect intended.  <smile Tony —- Message posted to newsgroup and emailed. Tony Toews, Independent Computer Consultant The Year 2000 crisis: Will my parents or your grand parents still be receiving their pension in January, 2000?  See http://www.granite.ab.ca/year2000 Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

Response:

I can’t begin to tell you the number of programs I have implemented.  The following are ALWAYS a part of the implementation: 1. ALL open orders are entered. 2. ALL open invoices are entered. 3. ALL open PO’s are entered. 4. A physical inventory is taken and the count entered. 5. ALL open vendor invoices are entered. These entries are what create your opening balances, you DON’T enter the balances manually.  You check the balances to make sure they are correct, then find the entry errors and correct them.  Hopefully, your IS provider can import your customer list, vendor list, and inventory items, as well as BOM’s, if that is a part of your business.  That saves you time.  Without this detail entered, you are going to have a devil of a time entering payments against AR and checks against AP.  If that is not your cup of tea, you had better keep doing everything by hand, because you don’t understand what a computer needs to do things right. GIGO! Cary Hedrick, Accountant "You may soar with eagles, but weasles don’t get caught in jet engines."  ;)

Response:

Without this detail entered, you are going to have a devil of a time

entering payments against AR and checks against AP.  << Cary, I agree with you in principle – but due to a bankruptcy in the company that’s taking over a YEAR to get settled – and in the meantime we send the checks to the trustee and he sits on them until it’s all finished – there’s no way to keep track of the accrued interest for each account and do things the way I’d like to.  I have found, however, that simply entering the payments to the trustee without having the bankruptcy listed as an AP works just fine.  The payments show up where they’re supposed to and the books all balance.  MY headache will come in when the trustee finally starts to disburse the $$ and I have to get everything straightened out then!!  In the meantme, though, the AR and AP come out just fine. Jean

Response:

Wow –good post CARY! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t begin to tell you the number of programs I have implemented.  The following are ALWAYS a part of the implementation: 1. ALL open orders are entered. 2. ALL open invoices are entered. 3. ALL open PO’s are entered. 4. A physical inventory is taken and the count entered. 5. ALL open vendor invoices are entered. These entries are what create your opening balances, you DON’T enter the balances manually.  You check the balances to make sure they are correct, then find the entry errors and correct them.  Hopefully, your IS provider can import your customer list, vendor list, and inventory items, as well as BOM’s, if that is a part of your business.  That saves you time.  Without this detail entered, you are going to have a devil of a time entering payments against AR and checks against AP.  If that is not your cup of tea, you had better keep doing everything by hand, because you don’t understand what a computer needs to do things right. GIGO! Cary Hedrick, Accountant "You may soar with eagles, but weasles don’t get caught in jet engines."  ;)

Response:

Question:

Help! Does anyone know whether Microsoft Peachtree Accounting for Windows ver 3.5 is Y2K compliance.

Response:

Help! Does anyone know whether Microsoft Peachtree Accounting for Windows ver 3.5 is Y2K compliance.

Mocrosoft doesn’t make Peachtree.  Peachtree’s website address is www.peachtree.com.  3.5 is not Y2K, but you can visit the site and it will give you the upgrade path for PT software. Carl Navarro

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the rapid responses!  Here’s some additional contact info: Contact name: k. emory  voice: 512-306-9486                                             fax: 512-306-9488

Response:

Status: URGENT Detail: Rpt to – Dir. Fin & Adm.  Performance: overall resp. for daily acctg process improvements, notes and loans acctg. process mgmt., non-resident state taxes process mgmt., acctg. policies implementation and ctrl., supv. train and cross train acctg staff, systems implementation (ATSW, SAP, shared services center), etc. Skills – MSOffice, MSExcel, MSAccess, 4-6 yrs. accounting exp. with supervisory and/or mgmt exp., Degree in Acctg. Contact: K. Emory 512-306-9486

Response:

Question:

We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

Response:

We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

You may make a TERRIBLE mistake. I have known many good programmers in 35 years of heavy computer and construction experience. For 10 years I helped a programming genius spend thousands of hours on a construction program. He accurately allocated costs to company projects, phases, buildings and units in uniquely fast ways. However, his program never had commercial features and reliability. When the boss saw how much the custom program increased accounting fees, and used QuickBooks to "drill down" reports to correct errors, the old program was history. To put things in perspective, QuickBooks is probably now spending more on final tests of its multi-user program than the gross sales of your company. Many programs, including construction programs, are far more powerful than QuickBooks. You can get modifiable source code for complete Access and Fox programs (SBT). This will provide more safety, reliability and far faster and more accurate returns than any custom program. Why risk your business, by effectively going into the programming business, when you know nothing about it? Mike Block, C.P.A. Tax Fighter, QuickBooks Professional Advisor 275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33334;  954-566-7540       biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news!            Demanding voter approval of tax increases!

Response:

I have to agree with Mike (with qualification). There are too many good, customizable accounting applications out there today. You could never justify the cost/benefit of a totally custom solution. Unless you are fairly small and uncomplicated, you probably won’t be happy with Quickbooks – it has some super features and great usability, but it gets terribly slow with a large load of data and it does have some undesirable quirks (for example, in the payroll employee management area). Plus you will have to wait a while to get the networked version – which will be a Version 1 (but based on a good beta test). And if you were thinking that it interfaces with the TurboTax for business as a selling point – NOT on NT. In fact nobody should recommend any product to you without first conducting a requirements analysis to determine your critical needs – both from an accounting perspective and your other overlapping interactions (e.g., HR, sales, payroll and remote site operations… how does it fit in the larger picture). There is a company out of Ft Wayne, IN (SolutionPoint) that has experience in this type of research-recommendation process (NT networks and accounting systems in particular) and has a national presence. Small company, but good rates and an abundance of talent. Web site: www.solutionpoint.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

Response:

You’ve "gotta lot of moxy, son". Having done lots of such software development over the last 20+ years, I’m definitely qualified.  But I wouldn’t touch it.  And you shouldn’t either. Are you SURE you want to do this?  After all, there are tens of excellent packages out there to do what you want to do.  It is a serious mistake to take off developing a system unless you have determined that there (1) is not an existing system that will do what you want to do, and (2) you cannot possibly change your way of doing things to accommodate an existing system somewhere. Not to get on my soapbox, but this kind of development project makes very little sense.  It will be long, drawn-out, bug-ridden, and expensive. After that, you’ve got ongoing maintenance from now until perpetuity.   Do yourself a favor.  Go find a package that does 80% of what you want to do, and buy it (perhaps with the help of a good systems consultant). Change your internal ways of doing things to accommodate it.   David Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

Response:

    I have to agree with Mike on this point:  "You are making a terrible mistake!"  I am not familiar, Peachtree is dominant in my area.  What I have done for a few of my clients is integrate MS-Access or Paradox with Peachtree.  Peachtree and QB or both btrieve databases which means they are OBDC databases.  Which means you can Link data from other OBDC databases to these accounting packages.     To give you an example of what I have done, my client wanted a contract system where they would write the contracts to purchase and sell material.  The quantity would be the same for the sales invoice and the purchase order.  So, in Access, they would enter the contract agreements.  As the shipments took place, the vendor would deliver the material to the customer.  This would be tracked in the system as a broker.  They would enter the data one time in Access.  Access would feed the information in Peachtree to the sales, purchase, and freight based on the terms of the contract.  This allowed Access to perform custom reports, such as position reports (the position of the contracts) and custom invoicing.  It also allowed Peachtree to do what it does well, receive cash, pay bills, financial reporting ,payroll, etc.  By having the two linked, there is no reason to double enter the data. — Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://user.centralnet.net/dcovey      Accounting and database specialist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system. We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system. We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at You may make a TERRIBLE mistake. I have known many good programmers in 35 years of heavy computer and construction experience. For 10 years I helped a programming genius spend thousands of hours on a construction program. He accurately allocated costs to company projects, phases, buildings and units in uniquely fast ways. However, his program never had commercial features and reliability. When the boss saw how much the custom program increased accounting fees, and used QuickBooks to "drill down" reports to correct errors, the old program was history. To put things in perspective, QuickBooks is probably now spending more on final tests of its multi-user program than the gross sales of your company. Many programs, including construction programs, are far more powerful than QuickBooks. You can get modifiable source code for complete Access and Fox programs (SBT). This will provide more safety, reliability and far faster and more accurate returns than any custom program. Why risk your business, by effectively going into the programming business, when you know nothing about it? Mike Block, C.P.A. Tax Fighter, QuickBooks Professional Advisor 275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33334;  954-566-7540       biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news!            Demanding voter approval of tax increases!

– Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://user.centralnet.net/dcovey      Accounting and database specialist.

Response:

    I have to agree with Mike on this point:  "You are making a terrible mistake!"  I am not familiar, Peachtree is dominant in my area.  What I have done for a few of my clients is integrate MS-Access or Paradox with Peachtree.  Peachtree and QB or both btrieve databases which means they are OBDC databases.  Which means you can Link data from other OBDC databases to these accounting packages.     To give you an example of what I have done, my client wanted a contract system where they would write the contracts to purchase and sell material.  The quantity would be the same for the sales invoice and the purchase order.  So, in Access, they would enter the contract agreements.  As the shipments took place, the vendor would deliver the material to the customer.  This would be tracked in the system as a broker.  They would enter the data one time in Access.  Access would feed the information in Peachtree to the sales, purchase, and freight based on the terms of the contract.  This allowed Access to perform custom reports, such as position reports (the position of the contracts) and custom invoicing.  It also allowed Peachtree to do what it does well, receive cash, pay bills, financial reporting ,payroll, etc.  By having the two linked, there is no reason to double enter the data. — Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://user.centralnet.net/dcovey      Accounting and database specialist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system. We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system. We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at You may make a TERRIBLE mistake. I have known many good programmers in 35 years of heavy computer and construction experience. For 10 years I helped a programming genius spend thousands of hours on a construction program. He accurately allocated costs to company projects, phases, buildings and units in uniquely fast ways. However, his program never had commercial features and reliability. When the boss saw how much the custom program increased accounting fees, and used QuickBooks to "drill down" reports to correct errors, the old program was history. To put things in perspective, QuickBooks is probably now spending more on final tests of its multi-user program than the gross sales of your company. Many programs, including construction programs, are far more powerful than QuickBooks. You can get modifiable source code for complete Access and Fox programs (SBT). This will provide more safety, reliabilit

     Accounting and database specialist.

Response:

Question:

Hi. I am currently attending an accredited business college in my home town.  Once I graduate, I plan on continuing my schooling to receive my bachelors in accounting.  My question is… Does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to get my chosen career started? Any tricks of the trade for a beginner?

Julie

Amor Vincit Omnia

~ Love Conquers All

Response:

|Hi Julie Butler (Imzadi): |ps #1:  Your HTML used on your e-mail is very beautiful.  Keep up the |good work. |Best regards, | |Al Gershen, Grants Pass, OR, USA Perhaps, the HTML is why I didn’t see the post.  My ISP and many others are filtering out html from USENET, an ascii medium.  The fact that Microsoft and Netscape built it into their browsers does not make it an acceptable medium in USENET.  The web IS a HTML medium but not USENET. FWIW, J. Ime  (Reverse domain *&* suffix letters to respond by e-mail)

I got the HTML, it was a provocative art photo of "Julie", not something you would expect from an accountant!

Response:

Hi Julie Butler (Imzadi): I believe that the basic decision you should try to make as early as possible is whether you want your career in public accounting or private accounting. My suggestion is to start in public accounting and later on, you can switch to private accounting if you desire. While you are going to school, you should be working part-time for a CPA firm so that you can gain hands-on experience in public accounting. After graduating from school, you can take the CPA exam (some people take the exam while in school).  Some of the experience that you have while working part-time might qualify toward the experience requirement for the CPA certificate. After becoming a CPA, the real test begins.  I would suspect that the majority of CPA’s end up out of public accounting. The important thing is that with your public accounting experience and your CPA licence, a lot of doors will open to you should you decide to enter private accounting or even leave the accounting profession. I hope that I have been able to help you with your planning. ps #1:  Your HTML used on your e-mail is very beautiful.  Keep up the good work. ps#2:  Don’t you just love WEBTV? Best regards, Al Gershen, Grants Pass, OR, USA Have a good day (or night) on the web. Also, WEBTV "really" works great!

Response: