Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In 1998, Al Gore unveiled the policiy that was to eventualy become the cornerstone of his legacy: Cook meat to 165F degrees internal temperature. It is unfortunate that Al’s enthusiasm for killing ecolli dId not carry over to something important, such as protecting America’s food supple from BSE. Yes, the bacteria E. coli can be killed, but the prions that cause mad cow disease cannot be killed – as prions are not alive. You can’t kill things that are not alive. One source that I read said that the prions that cause CJD appear to require a temperature of about 132 degrees C for an hour to make them non-infective.

To be more precise, quoting from the May 03 "The Return of Mad Cow: American Beef Supply at Risk" by M. Greger: "Mad cow disease is thought to caused not by a virus, fungus or bacteria, but by a prion, or infectious protein. One reason prions are so concerning is that, unlike conventional pathogens, prions are not adequately destroyed by cooking, canning, or freezing.[31,32] "Usable doses of UV or ionizing radiation, stomach acid, and digestive enzymes are all ineffective in destroying their infectivity.[33, 34] Even heat sterilization, domestic bleach[35], and formaldehyde sterilization have little or no effect.[36] One study even raised the disturbing question of whether even incineration could guarantee inactivation of prions.[37] "National Institutes of Health expert Joseph Gibbs once remarked tongue-in-cheek to Cornell’s Food Science Department that one of the only ways to ensure one’s burger is safe is to marinate it in a concentrated alkali such as Drain-O.[38] Prions have been called the smallest,[39] most lethal self-perpetuating biological entities in the world.[40] " Europe has forbidden the feeding of all slaughterhouse waste to livestock. The United States and Canada should do the same, according to William Leiss, President of the prestigious Royal Society of Canada.[41] [see posted article for full footnotes...ok, here are 31-41: [31] Taylor, D. M. "Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy." Medical Laboratory Sciences 49 (1992): 334-9. [32] Lacey, Richard W. and Stephen F. Dealler. "The BSE Time Bomb?" The Ecologist 21 (1991): 117- 122. [33] Marsh, R. F., and R. A. Bessen. "Epidemiologic and Experimental Studies on Transmissible Mink Encephalopathy." Developments in Biological Standardization 80 (1993): 111-118. [34] Dealler, S. F. and R. Lacey. "Beef and Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy." Nutrition and Health 7 (1991): 117-129. [35] Dealler, S. F. and R. Lacey. "Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies." Food Microbiology 7 (1990): 253-279. [36] Holt, T. A. and J. Phillips "Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy." British Medical Journal 296 (1988): 1581-2. [37] Brown, Paul, et al. "Resistance of Scrapie Infectivity to Steam Autoclaving after Formaldehyde Fixation and Limited Survival after Ashing at 360oC." Journal of Infectious Diseases 161 (1990): 467-472. [38] Gibbs, C.J. "BSE and Other Spongiform Encephalopathies in Humans and Animals: Causative Agent, Pathogenesis and Transmission." Fall 1994 Food Science Seminar Series. Department of Food Science. Cornell University, 1 December 1994. [39] Keeton, William T., et al. Biological Science New York: Norton, 1993. [40] Hunter, G. D. Scrapie and Mad Cow Disease New York: Vantage Press, 1993. [41] Ottawa Citizen 6 June 2001 and from the "USDA Misleading American Public about Safety of Beef: "The discovery of a case of mad cow disease in the U.S. highlights how ineffective current safeguards are in North America. The explosive spread of mad cow disease in Europe has been blamed on the cannibalistic practice of feeding slaughterhouse waste to livestock.[48] Both Canada[49] and the United States[50] banned the feeding of the muscles and bones of most animals to cows and sheep back in 1997, but unlike Europe left gaping loopholes in the law. For example, blood is currently exempted from the Canadian[51] and the U.S.[52] feed bans. "You can still feed calves cow’s blood collected at the slaughterhouse. In modern factory farming practice calves may be removed from their mothers immediately after birth, so the calves are fed milk replacer, which is often supplemented with protein rich cow serum. Weaned calves and young pigs also may have cattle blood sprayed directly on their feed to save money on feed costs.[53] For more information on this and other risky agriculture practices please see http://organicconsumers.org/madcow/GregerBSE.cfm " That last article has over 250 footnotes, and more importantly, goes point by point in greater detail about the loopholes allowign for forced cannibalism to continue to be done to U.S. cattle, about inadequate testing, and more.. Its title is, " U.S. Violates World Health Organization Guidelines for Mad Cow Disease: A Comparison of North American and European Safeguards" http://organicconsumers.org/madcow/GregerBSE.cfm We need to continue educating…ourselvs and our friends, families, coworkers, etc… * * * PROTECT YOUR HEALTH AND THE HEALTH OF YOUR FAMILY: MORE INFO, UPDATED CONSTANTLY, IS AT: http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow.htm ALSO WWW.VEGANMD.ORG AND CLICK ON "TALKS" TO LISTEN TO PHYSICIAN MICHAEL GREGER WHO HAS SPOKEN OUT ABOUT THIS SINCE THE EARLY 1990S = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org

Response:

In 1998, Al Gore unveiled the policiy that was to eventualy become the cornerstone of his legacy: Cook meat to 165F degrees internal temperature. It is unfortunate that Al’s enthusiasm for killing ecolli dId not carry over to something important, such as protecting America’s food supple from BSE. http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9807/02/barbeque "Don’t let avoidable foodborne illness endanger life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," Menwith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ** "It is unconscionable that the USDA and the beef industry continue to insist that the deadly prions aren’t found in muscle meat.[43] In 2002, Stanley Prusiner, the scientist who won the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his discovery of prions, proved in mice, at least, that muscle cells themselves were capable of forming prions.[44] He describes the levels of prions in muscle as "quite high," and describes the studies relied upon by the Cattlemen’s Association as "extraordinarily inadequate."[45] Follow-up studies in Germany published May, 2003 confirm Prusiner’s findings" ** " The explosive spread of mad cow disease in Europe has been blamed on the cannibalistic practice of feeding slaughterhouse waste to livestock.[48] Both Canada[49] and the United States[50] banned the feeding of the muscles and bones of most animals to cows and sheep back in 1997, but unlike Europe left gaping loopholes in the law. For example, blood is currently exempted…" ** D. Carleton Gajdusek was also awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work on mad cow-like diseases.[59] He was quoted on Dateline NBC as saying, "it’s got to be in the pigs as well as the cattle. It’s got to be passing through the chickens."[60] Dr. Paul Brown, medical director for the US Public Health Service, believes that pigs and poultry could indeed be harboring mad cow disease and passing it on to humans, adding that pigs are especially sensitive to the disease. "It’s speculation," he says, "but I am perfectly serious."[61] * * * * FULL ARTICLE: USDA Misleading American Public about Beef Safety December 24, 2003 by Michael Greger, M.D. It is not surprising that the U.S. has mad cow disease given our flaunting of World Health Organization recommendations.[1] What is surprising, however, is that we actually found a case given the inadequacy of our surveillance program, a level of testing that Nobel laureate Stanley Prusiner, probably the world’s leading expert on these diseases, calls simply "appalling."[2] Europe and Japan follow World Health Organization guidelines[3] and test every downer cow for mad cow disease[4]; the U.S. has tested less than 2% of downers over the last decade.[5] Most of the U.S. downer cows, too sick or injured to even walk, end up on our dinner plates.[6] In Canada, authorities were able to reassure the public that at least the downer cow they discovered infected with BSE–Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, or mad cow disease–was excluded from the human food chain and only rendered into animal feed.[7] U.S. officials don’t seem to be able to offer the same reassurance, as the mad cow we discovered may very well have been ground into hamburger.[8] How then, can the USDA and the beef industry insist that the American beef supply is still safe? They argue that the infectious prions that cause the disease are only found in the brain and nervous tissue, not the muscles, not the meat. For example, on NBC’s Today, USDA Secretary Veneman insisted "the fact of the matter is that all scientific evidence would show, based upon what we know about this disease, that muscle cuts — that is, the meat of the animal itself — should not cause any risk to human health. "[9] The National Cattlemen’s Beef Association echoed "Consumers should continue to eat beef with confidence. All scientific studies show that the BSE infectious agent has never been found in beef muscle meat or milk and U.S. beef remains safe to eat. "[10] This can be viewed as misleading and irresponsible on two counts. First, American do eat bovine central nervous system tissue. The United States General Accounting Office (GAO) is the investigative watchdog arm of Congress. In 2002, the GAO released their report on the weaknesses present in the U.S. defense against mad cow disease. Quoting from that congressional report, "In terms of the public health risk, consumers do not always know when foods and other products they use may contain central nervous system tissue… Many edible products, such as beef stock, beef extract, and beef flavoring, are frequently made by boiling the skeletal remains (including the vertebral column) of the carcass…"[12] According to the consumer advocacy organization Center for Science in the Public Interest, spinal cord contamination may also be found in U.S. hot dogs, hamburgers, pizza toppings, and taco fillings.[13] In fact, a 2002 USDA survey showed that approximately 35 percent of high risk meat products tested positive for central nervous system tissues.[14]  The GAO report continues: "In light of the experiences in Japan and other countries that were thought to be BSE free, we believe that it would be prudent for USDA to consider taking some action to inform consumers when products may contain central nervous system or other tissue that could pose a risk if taken from a BSE-infected animal. This effort would allow American consumers to make more informed choices about the products they consume."[15] The USDA, however, did not follow those recommendations, deciding such foods need not be labeled.[16] Even if Americans just stick to steak, they may not be shielded from risk. The "T" in a T-bone steak is a vertebra from the animal’s spinal column, and as such may contain a section of the actual spinal cord. Other potentially contaminated cuts include porterhouse, standing rib roast, prime rib with bone, bone-in rib steak, and (if they contain bone) chuck blade roast and loin. These cuts may include spinal cord tissue and/or so-called dorsal root ganglia, swellings of nerve roots coming into the meat from the spinal cord which have been proven to be infectious as well.[17] This concern has led the FDA to consider banning the incorporation of "plate waste" from restaurants into cattle feed.[18] The American Feed Industry Association defends the current exemption of plate scrapings from the 1997 feed regulations: "How can you tell the consumer ‘Hey, you’ve just eaten a T-bone steak and it’s fine for you, but you can’t feed it to animals’? "[19] Even boneless cuts may not be risk-free, though. In the slaughterhouse, the bovine carcass is typically split in half down the middle with a band saw, sawing right through the spinal column. This has been shown to aerosolize the spinal cord and contaminate the surrounding meat.[20] A study in Europe found contamination with spinal cord material on 100% of the split carcasses examined.[21] Similar contamination of meat derived from cattle cheeks can occur from brain tissue, if the cheek meat is not removed before the skull is fragmented or split.[22] The World Health Organization has pointed out that American beef can be contaminated with brain and spinal cord tissue in another way as well.[23]  Except for Islamic halal and Jewish kosher slaughter (which involve slitting the cow’s throat while the animal is still conscious), cattle slaughtered in the United States are first stunned unconscious with an impact to the head before being bled to death. Medical science has known for over 60 years that people suffering head trauma can end up with bits of brain embolized into their bloodstream; so Texas A&M researchers wondered if fragments of brain could be found within the bodies of cattle stunned for slaughter. They checked and reportedly exclaimed, "Oh, boy did we find it."[24] They even found a 14 cm piece of brain in one cow’s lung. They concluded, "It is likely that prion proteins are found throughout the bodies of animals stunned for slaughter."[25] There are different types of stunning devices, however, which likely have different levels of risk associated with them. The Texas A&M study was published in 1996 using the prevailing method at the time, pneumatic-powered air injection stunning.[26] The device is placed in the middle of the animal’s forehead and fired, shooting a 4 inch bolt through the skull and injecting compressed air into the cranial vault which scrambles the brain tissue. The high pressure air not only "produces a smearing of the head of the animal with liquefied brain,"[27] but has been shown over and over to blow brain back into the circulatory system, scattering whole plugs of brain into a number of organs[28] and smaller brain bits likely into the muscle meat as well.[29]  Although this method of stunning has been used in the United States for over 20 years,[30] the meat industry, to their credit, has been phasing out these particularly risky air injection-type stunners. The Deputy Director of Public Citizen argues that this industry initiative should be given the force of federal regulation and banned,[31] as they have been throughout Europe.[32] The stunning devices that remain in widespread use drive similar bolts through the skull of the animal, but without air injection.[33] Operators then may or may not pith the animals by sticking a rod into the stun hole to further agitate the deeper brain structures to reduce or eliminate reflex kicking during shackling of the hind limbs.[34] Even without pithing, which has been shown to be risky, these stunners currently in use in the U.S. today may still force brain into the bloodstream of some of these animals.[35-38] In one experiment, for example, researchers

… read more »

Response:

Al Gore says eat beans, they’re good for your jeans. Al Gore now thinks he owns the Internet. Senator Kennedy endorses John Kerry. Republicans are trying to keep the obvious very quiet, by pretending that Howard Dean could possibly be such a huge, Internet darling, without the publicity that he is receiving from Republicans who fear the candidacy of a war hero like John Kerry. http://jfkawards.freehomepage.com/grassroots.htm The grassroots is always ignored by the mainstream media.

Response:

In 1998, Al Gore unveiled the policiy that was to eventualy become the cornerstone of his legacy: Cook meat to 165F degrees internal temperature. It is unfortunate that Al’s enthusiasm for killing ecolli dId not carry over to something important, such as protecting America’s food supple from BSE.

Yes, the bacteria E. coli can be killed, but the prions that cause mad cow disease cannot be killed – as prions are not alive. You can’t kill things that are not alive. One source that I read said that the prions that cause CJD appear to require a temperature of about 132 degrees C for an hour to make them non-infective.

Response:

** "It is unconscionable that the USDA and the beef industry continue to insist that the deadly prions aren’t found in muscle meat.[43] In 2002, Stanley Prusiner, the scientist who won the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his discovery of prions, proved in mice, at least, that muscle cells themselves were capable of forming prions.[44] He describes the levels of prions in muscle as "quite high," and describes the studies relied upon by the Cattlemen’s Association as "extraordinarily inadequate."[45] Follow-up studies in Germany published May, 2003 confirm Prusiner’s findings" ** " The explosive spread of mad cow disease in Europe has been blamed on the cannibalistic practice of feeding slaughterhouse waste to livestock.[48] Both Canada[49] and the United States[50] banned the feeding of the muscles and bones of most animals to cows and sheep back in 1997, but unlike Europe left gaping loopholes in the law. For example, blood is currently exempted…" ** D. Carleton Gajdusek was also awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work on mad cow-like diseases.[59] He was quoted on Dateline NBC as saying, "it’s got to be in the pigs as well as the cattle. It’s got to be passing through the chickens."[60] Dr. Paul Brown, medical director for the US Public Health Service, believes that pigs and poultry could indeed be harboring mad cow disease and passing it on to humans, adding that pigs are especially sensitive to the disease. "It’s speculation," he says, "but I am perfectly serious."[61] * * * * FULL ARTICLE: USDA Misleading American Public about Beef Safety December 24, 2003 by Michael Greger, M.D. It is not surprising that the U.S. has mad cow disease given our flaunting of World Health Organization recommendations.[1] What is surprising, however, is that we actually found a case given the inadequacy of our surveillance program, a level of testing that Nobel laureate Stanley Prusiner, probably the world’s leading expert on these diseases, calls simply "appalling."[2] Europe and Japan follow World Health Organization guidelines[3] and test every downer cow for mad cow disease[4]; the U.S. has tested less than 2% of downers over the last decade.[5] Most of the U.S. downer cows, too sick or injured to even walk, end up on our dinner plates.[6] In Canada, authorities were able to reassure the public that at least the downer cow they discovered infected with BSE–Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, or mad cow disease–was excluded from the human food chain and only rendered into animal feed.[7] U.S. officials don’t seem to be able to offer the same reassurance, as the mad cow we discovered may very well have been ground into hamburger.[8] How then, can the USDA and the beef industry insist that the American beef supply is still safe? They argue that the infectious prions that cause the disease are only found in the brain and nervous tissue, not the muscles, not the meat. For example, on NBC’s Today, USDA Secretary Veneman insisted "the fact of the matter is that all scientific evidence would show, based upon what we know about this disease, that muscle cuts — that is, the meat of the animal itself — should not cause any risk to human health. "[9] The National Cattlemen’s Beef Association echoed "Consumers should continue to eat beef with confidence. All scientific studies show that the BSE infectious agent has never been found in beef muscle meat or milk and U.S. beef remains safe to eat. "[10] This can be viewed as misleading and irresponsible on two counts. First, American do eat bovine central nervous system tissue. The United States General Accounting Office (GAO) is the investigative watchdog arm of Congress. In 2002, the GAO released their report on the weaknesses present in the U.S. defense against mad cow disease. Quoting from that congressional report, "In terms of the public health risk, consumers do not always know when foods and other products they use may contain central nervous system tissue… Many edible products, such as beef stock, beef extract, and beef flavoring, are frequently made by boiling the skeletal remains (including the vertebral column) of the carcass…"[12] According to the consumer advocacy organization Center for Science in the Public Interest, spinal cord contamination may also be found in U.S. hot dogs, hamburgers, pizza toppings, and taco fillings.[13] In fact, a 2002 USDA survey showed that approximately 35 percent of high risk meat products tested positive for central nervous system tissues.[14]  The GAO report continues: "In light of the experiences in Japan and other countries that were thought to be BSE free, we believe that it would be prudent for USDA to consider taking some action to inform consumers when products may contain central nervous system or other tissue that could pose a risk if taken from a BSE-infected animal. This effort would allow American consumers to make more informed choices about the products they consume."[15] The USDA, however, did not follow those recommendations, deciding such foods need not be labeled.[16] Even if Americans just stick to steak, they may not be shielded from risk. The "T" in a T-bone steak is a vertebra from the animal’s spinal column, and as such may contain a section of the actual spinal cord. Other potentially contaminated cuts include porterhouse, standing rib roast, prime rib with bone, bone-in rib steak, and (if they contain bone) chuck blade roast and loin. These cuts may include spinal cord tissue and/or so-called dorsal root ganglia, swellings of nerve roots coming into the meat from the spinal cord which have been proven to be infectious as well.[17] This concern has led the FDA to consider banning the incorporation of "plate waste" from restaurants into cattle feed.[18] The American Feed Industry Association defends the current exemption of plate scrapings from the 1997 feed regulations: "How can you tell the consumer ‘Hey, you’ve just eaten a T-bone steak and it’s fine for you, but you can’t feed it to animals’? "[19] Even boneless cuts may not be risk-free, though. In the slaughterhouse, the bovine carcass is typically split in half down the middle with a band saw, sawing right through the spinal column. This has been shown to aerosolize the spinal cord and contaminate the surrounding meat.[20] A study in Europe found contamination with spinal cord material on 100% of the split carcasses examined.[21] Similar contamination of meat derived from cattle cheeks can occur from brain tissue, if the cheek meat is not removed before the skull is fragmented or split.[22] The World Health Organization has pointed out that American beef can be contaminated with brain and spinal cord tissue in another way as well.[23]  Except for Islamic halal and Jewish kosher slaughter (which involve slitting the cow’s throat while the animal is still conscious), cattle slaughtered in the United States are first stunned unconscious with an impact to the head before being bled to death. Medical science has known for over 60 years that people suffering head trauma can end up with bits of brain embolized into their bloodstream; so Texas A&M researchers wondered if fragments of brain could be found within the bodies of cattle stunned for slaughter. They checked and reportedly exclaimed, "Oh, boy did we find it."[24] They even found a 14 cm piece of brain in one cow’s lung. They concluded, "It is likely that prion proteins are found throughout the bodies of animals stunned for slaughter."[25] There are different types of stunning devices, however, which likely have different levels of risk associated with them. The Texas A&M study was published in 1996 using the prevailing method at the time, pneumatic-powered air injection stunning.[26] The device is placed in the middle of the animal’s forehead and fired, shooting a 4 inch bolt through the skull and injecting compressed air into the cranial vault which scrambles the brain tissue. The high pressure air not only "produces a smearing of the head of the animal with liquefied brain,"[27] but has been shown over and over to blow brain back into the circulatory system, scattering whole plugs of brain into a number of organs[28] and smaller brain bits likely into the muscle meat as well.[29]  Although this method of stunning has been used in the United States for over 20 years,[30] the meat industry, to their credit, has been phasing out these particularly risky air injection-type stunners. The Deputy Director of Public Citizen argues that this industry initiative should be given the force of federal regulation and banned,[31] as they have been throughout Europe.[32] The stunning devices that remain in widespread use drive similar bolts through the skull of the animal, but without air injection.[33] Operators then may or may not pith the animals by sticking a rod into the stun hole to further agitate the deeper brain structures to reduce or eliminate reflex kicking during shackling of the hind limbs.[34] Even without pithing, which has been shown to be risky, these stunners currently in use in the U.S. today may still force brain into the bloodstream of some of these animals.[35-38] In one experiment, for example, researchers applied a marker onto the stunner bolt. The marker was later detected within the muscle meat of the stunned animal. They conclude: "This study demonstrates that material present in… the CNS of cattle during commercial captive bolt stunning may become widely dispersed across the many animate and inanimate elements of the slaughter-dressing environment and within derived carcasses including meat entering the human food chain."[39] Even non-penetrative "mushroom-headed" stunners which just rely on concussive force to the skull to render the animal unconscious may not be risk free. People in automobile accidents with non-invasive head trauma can still end up with brain embolization,[40] and these bolts move at over 200 miles per hour.[41] The researchers at Texas A&M … read more »

Response:

Question:

Under Corporation Tax rules certain adjustments are made to ‘accounting profits’ depending on whether cetain expenses are allowable or not.  In addition, the results of the application of some accounting principles require adjustment.  I am aware that one such adjustment is that losses on LT WIP can only be deducted upon ‘realisation’:  however, is the same true of ’stock losses’ where stocks are valued at lower of NRV and cost ?  Secondly, does this principle extend to the treatment of ‘provision for doubtful debts’ : i.e can only ‘realised’ (i.e ‘ bad’) debts be claimed as deductible expenses ? Thanks in advance g thomas

Response:

I have never come across such a requirement that losses on WIP should be adjusted. Perhaps there is some obscure reason of which I am unaware. If an invoice is raised for less than the WIP, then that loss is automatically reflected in lower profits. Why would an adjustment be required? For example:  WIP is valued at

Question:

A 1:1 transformer is basically a method of isolating a circuit. However, your GFCI will give you all the protection you need.  You just need to make sure you don’t plug too many lights in to each other.  Some lights have plugs at the end of the strand, and typically you can only have 3 strands connected to each other. The way a GFCI works is that it compares the electrical current leaving the outlet with that returning to the outlet.  If there is a difference of more than about 5 milliamps, it trips and cuts the power.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, here’s a stupid question (and I hope it’s alright to piggyback onto this thread):  What is a 1:1 transformer?  I live in East Texas, and we get a lot of rain in winter — so I have been concerned about outdoor Christmas lights in wet weather.  Mine are plugged into outlets with GFCI protection, but there are quite a number of strands of lights plugged into 16 gauge outdoor extension cords and then into the outlets.  I have not had any trouble with circuits tripping, but I still have safety concerns. MaryL If you put your snowblower on a 1:1 transformer, you will never trip GFCI. (and you won’t be killed by a current to the ground either) igor * My snow blower draws 13a, and the circuit in the garage wasn’t up to it, * since it also has a bunch of lights on it. * * I extended a 20a circuit from the basement, but the snow blower trips the * GFCI when it starts up.  I know I could move the extension to the line side * of the GFCI, but I hate to give up the GFCI protection in the summer. * * I thought of changing the cable to 3 wire and doing one recepticle to the * load and one to the line; but I can see that tripping the GFCI because no * current would be going out through the GFCI, but it would be returning * through it.  Is that corrects? * * My second idea is to put a double pole switch at the GFCI outlet. When * open, the only path would be through the GFCI.  When closed, the load and * line terminals for both the hot and neutral would be connected through the * switch, effectively eliminating the GFCI. * * It sounds a little strange, and strange ideas are generally wrong, but I * can’t see that it would do any harm.  Would it? * * I am open to other solutions.  (Possibly running a second line from the line * side to the top recepticle and leaving the bottom on the load side?) * * Thanks. * *

Response:

If you wanted to be hokey about it, you could get a 3 way switch, and wire it up so you could switch between the line and load sides of the GFCI, but a building inspector would smite you for that.

I thought of that, but wouldn’t the GFCI trip because the neutral was showing current when the hot wasn’t? Or does it just trip if the neutral shows less current than the hot? GFCIs open both hot and neutral don’t they?

Response:

My snow blower draws 13a, and the circuit in the garage wasn’t up to it, since it also has a bunch of lights on it.

Is there some reason the lights need to be on when the snowblower is running?   I suspect you have a worn or bad GFI receptacle in the basement. Replace it with a 20A model and you’ll likely be OK

Response:

Sounds like you are trying to defeat the purpose of the GFCI. This can be dangerous, find out why the blower is tripping the GFCI before you get electrocuted.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My snow blower draws 13a, and the circuit in the garage wasn’t up to it, since it also has a bunch of lights on it. I extended a 20a circuit from the basement, but the snow blower trips the GFCI when it starts up.  I know I could move the extension to the line side of the GFCI, but I hate to give up the GFCI protection in the summer. I thought of changing the cable to 3 wire and doing one recepticle to the load and one to the line; but I can see that tripping the GFCI because no current would be going out through the GFCI, but it would be returning through it.  Is that corrects? My second idea is to put a double pole switch at the GFCI outlet.  When open, the only path would be through the GFCI.  When closed, the load and line terminals for both the hot and neutral would be connected through the switch, effectively eliminating the GFCI. It sounds a little strange, and strange ideas are generally wrong, but I can’t see that it would do any harm.  Would it? I am open to other solutions.  (Possibly running a second line from the line side to the top recepticle and leaving the bottom on the load side?) Thanks.

Response:

Kitchens can have a lot of high current devices plugged into the outlets there. When we remodeled our kitchen I brought 2 240 20 amp lines into the kitchen. Each line goes to a double box with 2 duplex outlets. This gives me 4 outlets on the kitchen counter wit henough capacity for just about anything.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My snow blower draws 13a, and the circuit in the garage wasn’t up to it, since it also has a bunch of lights on it. I extended a 20a circuit from the basement, but the snow blower trips the GFCI when it starts up.  I know I could move the extension to the line side of the GFCI, but I hate to give up the GFCI protection in the summer. I thought of changing the cable to 3 wire and doing one recepticle to the load and one to the line; but I can see that tripping the GFCI because no current would be going out through the GFCI, but it would be returning through it.  Is that corrects? My second idea is to put a double pole switch at the GFCI outlet.  When open, the only path would be through the GFCI.  When closed, the load and line terminals for both the hot and neutral would be connected through the switch, effectively eliminating the GFCI. It sounds a little strange, and strange ideas are generally wrong, but I can’t see that it would do any harm.  Would it? I am open to other solutions.  (Possibly running a second line from the line side to the top recepticle and leaving the bottom on the load side?) Thanks.

Response:

Okay, here’s a stupid question (and I hope it’s alright to piggyback onto this thread):  What is a 1:1 transformer?  I live in East Texas, and we get a lot of rain in winter — so I have been concerned about outdoor Christmas lights in wet weather.  Mine are plugged into outlets with GFCI protection, but there are quite a number of strands of lights plugged into 16 gauge outdoor extension cords and then into the outlets.  I have not had any trouble with circuits tripping, but I still have safety concerns. MaryL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you put your snowblower on a 1:1 transformer, you will never trip GFCI. (and you won’t be killed by a current to the ground either) igor * My snow blower draws 13a, and the circuit in the garage wasn’t up to it, * since it also has a bunch of lights on it. * * I extended a 20a circuit from the basement, but the snow blower trips the * GFCI when it starts up.  I know I could move the extension to the line side * of the GFCI, but I hate to give up the GFCI protection in the summer. * * I thought of changing the cable to 3 wire and doing one recepticle to the * load and one to the line; but I can see that tripping the GFCI because no * current would be going out through the GFCI, but it would be returning * through it.  Is that corrects? * * My second idea is to put a double pole switch at the GFCI outlet.  When * open, the only path would be through the GFCI.  When closed, the load and * line terminals for both the hot and neutral would be connected through the * switch, effectively eliminating the GFCI. * * It sounds a little strange, and strange ideas are generally wrong, but I * can’t see that it would do any harm.  Would it? * * I am open to other solutions.  (Possibly running a second line from the line * side to the top recepticle and leaving the bottom on the load side?) * * Thanks. * *

Response:

hmm, Sometimes a large motor will trip a gfci because when it is starting up it get out of phase, and the GFCI thinks it is losing the nominal 5 milliamps.  However, you might get your snowblower checked out to make sure it is working correctly.  If it was me, I’d want to use the snowblower with GFCI protection, so you don’t step into a pile of snow next to it and get a li’l surprise. I’m not 100% sure of the electrical code, but I know that a gfci outlet is supposed to have a label on it to designate it as a GFCI outlet.  I would suspect that code might require that you would have a second outlet wired, one wired to line, one wired to load, with the load one labeled as GFCI. You also want to make sure that the GFCI outlet is a 20 amp one.  This is determined by the one side being a sideways T, versus just them both being just straight up and down.   You also want to double check that the wiring is 12 gauge.  The GFCI may have a circuit breaker in it.  When a motor kicks in, there is a large current surge that might fool a 15 amp breaker. So, what I would do is: A) Get a safety inspection on the snowblower to make sure it isn’t leaking current. B) If it is safe, run a 2nd outlet up from the basement on the ‘line’ side of the GFCI. If you wanted to be hokey about it, you could get a 3 way switch, and wire it up so you could switch between the line and load sides of the GFCI, but a building inspector would smite you for that. Whatever you do, don’t connect the line and load sides of the GFCI, because they takes out ALL of your gfci protection.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My snow blower draws 13a, and the circuit in the garage wasn’t up to it, since it also has a bunch of lights on it. I extended a 20a circuit from the basement, but the snow blower trips the GFCI when it starts up.  I know I could move the extension to the line side of the GFCI, but I hate to give up the GFCI protection in the summer. I thought of changing the cable to 3 wire and doing one recepticle to the load and one to the line; but I can see that tripping the GFCI because no current would be going out through the GFCI, but it would be returning through it.  Is that corrects? My second idea is to put a double pole switch at the GFCI outlet.  When open, the only path would be through the GFCI.  When closed, the load and line terminals for both the hot and neutral would be connected through the switch, effectively eliminating the GFCI. It sounds a little strange, and strange ideas are generally wrong, but I can’t see that it would do any harm.  Would it? I am open to other solutions.  (Possibly running a second line from the line side to the top recepticle and leaving the bottom on the load side?) Thanks.

Response:

My snow blower draws 13a, and the circuit in the garage wasn’t up to it, since it also has a bunch of lights on it. I extended a 20a circuit from the basement, but the snow blower trips the GFCI when it starts up.  I know I could move the extension to the line side of the GFCI, but I hate to give up the GFCI protection in the summer. I thought of changing the cable to 3 wire and doing one recepticle to the load and one to the line; but I can see that tripping the GFCI because no current would be going out through the GFCI, but it would be returning through it.  Is that corrects? My second idea is to put a double pole switch at the GFCI outlet.  When open, the only path would be through the GFCI.  When closed, the load and line terminals for both the hot and neutral would be connected through the switch, effectively eliminating the GFCI. It sounds a little strange, and strange ideas are generally wrong, but I can’t see that it would do any harm.  Would it? I am open to other solutions.  (Possibly running a second line from the line side to the top recepticle and leaving the bottom on the load side?) Thanks.

Response:

My house in Southern Calif is 46 years old. The kitchen recepts are shot, so out they go. Do I need to have GFCI units at only the two boxes on either side of the sink or do I have to continue on down both long counters? I remember hearing a vague reference to the code requiring ALL outlets in a kitchen and lav now must be of that type. Would this also include the disposer service under the sink? Thank you. Jack Green For email response please remove the capitalised modifier in my email address.

Response:

  My house in Southern Calif is 46 years old. The kitchen recepts are   shot, so out they go. Do I need to have GFCI units at only the two   boxes on either side of the sink or do I have to continue on down both   long counters? I remember hearing a vague reference to the code   requiring ALL outlets in a kitchen and lav now must be of that type.   Would this also include the disposer service under the sink?     Thank you.     Jack Green           The answer to your counter top GFCI question depends on which addition of the code is enforced there.  The 2002 NEC requires all kitchen counter top receptacles to be GFCI protected.         The disposal receptacle is not required to be GFI protected. — Tom

Response:

    Chances are you only need one since the others are likely to be part of the same circuit and you only need one GFCI on the first one (closest to the breaker box) and it will protect the remaining receptacles.  Make sure the others are on the same line and you use a pass though to power the remaining boxes. — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My house in Southern Calif is 46 years old. The kitchen recepts are shot, so out they go. Do I need to have GFCI units at only the two boxes on either side of the sink or do I have to continue on down both long counters? I remember hearing a vague reference to the code requiring ALL outlets in a kitchen and lav now must be of that type. Would this also include the disposer service under the sink? Thank you. Jack Green For email response please remove the capitalised modifier in my email address.

Response:

 The fridge probably has excessive leakage current, often involving a  strip heater or, possibly, compressor.   While the grounded cord/plug  will protect against shock, it would be wise to find out why there is  leakage.

        Tell me more about this!  What else could cause such leakage? I think I have a similar problem with a different appliance.         I’m helping a friend remodel his kitchen.  We are installing some new electrial circuits and putting GFCIs on them where there haven’t been any before.  We’ve been having problems with one of them. About a minute after we plug the range in, the GFCI trips.           This is a gas range but it needs electricity for the electronic ignition, the oven light, and the clock.  Could something be wrong with the clock that would trip the GFCI?  Interestingly, I have noticed that the clock loses time.           Thank you for your help.                         Peter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  The fridge probably has excessive leakage current, often involving a  strip heater or, possibly, compressor.   While the grounded cord/plug  will protect against shock, it would be wise to find out why there is  leakage.         Tell me more about this!  What else could cause such leakage? I think I have a similar problem with a different appliance.         I’m helping a friend remodel his kitchen.  We are installing some new electrial circuits and putting GFCIs on them where there haven’t been any before.  We’ve been having problems with one of them. About a minute after we plug the range in, the GFCI trips.         This is a gas range but it needs electricity for the electronic ignition, the oven light, and the clock.  Could something be wrong with the clock that would trip the GFCI?  Interestingly, I have noticed that the clock loses time.         Thank you for your help.                         Peter

Maybe start with an ohmmeter from the ground pin to the other 2 prongs on the plug to measure any leakage resistance.   If that shows anything, disconnect parts of the range: clock, igniter, lamp, etc. until the leakage goes to zero. Jim

Response:

I should still have a copy in my locker at work.  If it’s still there (and not pirated by one of my "buddies") I’ll let you know Friday.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nehmo I didn’t know that. (I’m not disputing you.) That’s interesting. I can only find pieces of the NEC on the net. Do you, or does anybody, have a full copy – perhaps in digital form? No.   NEC is a copyrighted work, belonging to NFPA. You have to buy it.

Response:

Speedy Jim   Any fridge/freezer should *not* be GFCI protected; there is too much   likelihood that the circuit will get tripped off, spoiling the food.   NEC has specific provision for a non-GFCI recept in garages just for   this purpose. Nehmo I didn’t know that. (I’m not disputing you.) That’s interesting. I can only find pieces of the NEC on the net. Do you, or does anybody, have a full copy – perhaps in digital form?

It’s in Art. 210-8 (a) (2) Exception No. 2: Receptacles for appliances occupying dedicated space (like your freezer) This exepmts freezers and things like garage door openers from needing GFCI protection.  The receptacle installed for these appliances must not be readily accessible for general use. Jim

Response:

Nehmo I didn’t know that. (I’m not disputing you.) That’s interesting. I can only find pieces of the NEC on the net. Do you, or does anybody, have a full copy – perhaps in digital form?

No.   NEC is a copyrighted work, belonging to NFPA. You have to buy it.

Response:

You don’t say if the garage is a GFCI breaker or outlet. If breaker, you can replace it with a regular breaker and use a GFCI outlet to protect the outlets. After that, depending on the layout in your garage, you can either: 1) put the GFCI outlet on the SECOND outlet and put a single receptacle in the first position.    You can then plug the refrigerator into the single receptacle and all is well. 2) If the first outlet is not near where you want the fridge, run a new single receptacle off the feed side of the first outlet.  (The GFCI outlet would then be the first outlet, not the second) Whatever you do, an old fridge can draw a lot of current; be sure you are not overloading anything by having it on a circuit that probably did not figure a fridge.  I had to put a new circuit to my garage because my snow blower dimmed the lights; that sort of thing.

Response:

Speedy Jim   Any fridge/freezer should *not* be GFCI protected; there is too much   likelihood that the circuit will get tripped off, spoiling the food.   NEC has specific provision for a non-GFCI recept in garages just for   this purpose.

Nehmo I didn’t know that. (I’m not disputing you.) That’s interesting. I can only find pieces of the NEC on the net. Do you, or does anybody, have a full copy – perhaps in digital form? —     *   Nehmo Sergheyev   * http://home.kc.rr.com/missouri/Susan_Talks.htm

Response:

my capability.  Was hoping to just replace GFCI outlet with normal 3 prong outlet, which is what we had in previous house but, I’m assuming, the other GFCIs on same circuit would take it out anyway. isn’t it current code that all circuits in garages have to be gfci?

To summarize what I’ve gathered from earlier conversations on this topic, there are two ways to attach a GFCI receptacle to a circut.   One way is to feed all the downstream receptacles from the "load" side of the receptacle.  If you do this, then anything that creates an imbalance downstream of that receptacle will shut off all of them.  In this case, you only actually need one GFCI outlet.   But there’s apparently a limit (four?) to how many receptacles you can stack on the load side of a GFCI receptacle like that.     The other way is to pigtail the rest of the circut in the box so that the GFCI is effectively it’s own branch circut, in which case, it won’t protect anything but itself.    It’s not entirely clear to me why a fault elsewhere on the circut doesn’t blow the GFCI breaker when you do this, but even if it did, it would only shut of the receptacle(s) protected by the GFCI breaker. Last time I checked, having a GFCI breaker meant you didn’t have to have GFCI receptacles, but you were supposed to label the affected receptacles as being GFCI protected using little sticky-labels that ought to have come with the breaker. Outlets in a garage are supposed to be GFCI protected, EXCEPT when they are dedicated outlets for equipment not easily moved, or when they are "not readily accessible", whatever that means.  . . . . Ah. here it is:  "Accessible, Readily … Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections, without requiring those for whom ready access is required to climb over or remove obstacles, or resort to portable ladders, etc." In any case, if ALL the outlets in your garage are GFCI protected, the chances are that they’re all wired up in parallel, with each one protecting only itself.   That’s fairly easy to test, just trip one with the test button, and see if the rest of the also shut off.    If that’s the case, then simply replacing the desired receptacle with a non-GFCI one should work. –Goedjn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In new house, all of the outlets in bathroom, kitchen, and garage are GFCI. I thought one GFCI outlet, if properly wired, could protect all of the other outlets on that circuit.  Wrong? No, you are correct in your assumption. Have an extra refrigerator in the garage that keeps tripping the GFCI. Works fine off outlet without GFCI.  Is that suggesting a problem with the fridge, the GFCI, or is a GFCI outlet just not appropriate for an appliance for some reason? In most cases fridges should not be on GFCI circuits.  They are prone to problems that cause tripping.

So, since all of the outlets in the garage have GFCIs and, I believe, their all on one circuit, I’d have to run a separate circuit for the fridge?  Know it wouldn’t be a bad idea anyway, but layout of the house may put it beyond my capability.  Was hoping to just replace GFCI outlet with normal 3 prong outlet, which is what we had in previous house but, I’m assuming, the other GFCIs on same circuit would take it out anyway.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In new house, all of the outlets in bathroom, kitchen, and garage are GFCI. I thought one GFCI outlet, if properly wired, could protect all of the other outlets on that circuit.  Wrong? No, you are correct in your assumption. Have an extra refrigerator in the garage that keeps tripping the GFCI. Works fine off outlet without GFCI.  Is that suggesting a problem with the fridge, the GFCI, or is a GFCI outlet just not appropriate for an appliance for some reason? In most cases fridges should not be on GFCI circuits.  They are prone to problems that cause tripping. So, since all of the outlets in the garage have GFCIs and, I believe, their all on one circuit, I’d have to run a separate circuit for the fridge? Know it wouldn’t be a bad idea anyway, but layout of the house may put it beyond my capability.  Was hoping to just replace GFCI outlet with normal 3 prong outlet, which is what we had in previous house but, I’m assuming, the other GFCIs on same circuit would take it out anyway.

isn’t it current code that all circuits in garages have to be gfci?

Response:

Some GFCI questions.  Before selling house, I’m told I have to replace all of the kitchen and bathroom outlets with GFCI outlets even though all of those outlets are on a single circuit fed by a GFCI breaker.  What does that gain?

Many city codes require that any outlet within 6 feet (or more in some cities) of a water source be GFCI outlets.  Having a GFCI breaker takes care of this requirement.  Apparently, you just got an inspector that has his head up his butt. In new house, all of the outlets in bathroom, kitchen, and garage are GFCI. I thought one GFCI outlet, if properly wired, could protect all of the other outlets on that circuit.  Wrong?

No, you are correct in your assumption. Have an extra refrigerator in the garage that keeps tripping the GFCI. Works fine off outlet without GFCI.  Is that suggesting a problem with the fridge, the GFCI, or is a GFCI outlet just not appropriate for an appliance for some reason?

In most cases fridges should not be on GFCI circuits.  They are prone to problems that cause tripping.

Response:

Some GFCI questions.  Before selling house, I’m told I have to replace all of the kitchen and bathroom outlets with GFCI outlets even though all of those outlets are on a single circuit fed by a GFCI breaker.  What does that gain? In new house, all of the outlets in bathroom, kitchen, and garage are GFCI. I thought one GFCI outlet, if properly wired, could protect all of the other outlets on that circuit.  Wrong? Have an extra refrigerator in the garage that keeps tripping the GFCI. Works fine off outlet without GFCI.  Is that suggesting a problem with the fridge, the GFCI, or is a GFCI outlet just not appropriate for an appliance for some reason?

Response:

Some GFCI questions.  Before selling house, I’m told I have to replace all of the kitchen and bathroom outlets with GFCI outlets even though all of those outlets are on a single circuit fed by a GFCI breaker.  What does that gain?

  Pre-sale inspection by the city?  Many places are requiring such things   retroactively (bad law).  If this *was* called for by the city inspector,   it just means he’s ignorant of the use of a GFCI breaker to protect the   entire circuit.  Argue with him?? In new house, all of the outlets in bathroom, kitchen, and garage are GFCI. I thought one GFCI outlet, if properly wired, could protect all of the other outlets on that circuit.  Wrong?

  You’re right; the first recept on any single circuit could protect all those   downstream.  In this house, there would have to be at least 4 separate   circuits.  In any event, maybe it was just easier to do it the way they did… Have an extra refrigerator in the garage that keeps tripping the GFCI. Works fine off outlet without GFCI.  Is that suggesting a problem with the fridge, the GFCI, or is a GFCI outlet just not appropriate for an appliance for some reason?

  The fridge probably has excessive leakage current, often involving a   strip heater or, possibly, compressor.   While the grounded cord/plug   will protect against shock, it would be wise to find out why there is   leakage.   Any fridge/freezer should *not* be GFCI protected; there is too much   likelihood that the circuit will get tripped off, spoiling the food.   NEC has specific provision for a non-GFCI recept in garages just for   this purpose. Jim

Response:

Definitely interesting.  Try taking it to an electrical supply house and see if you can get an answer.  Let us know if you do. Of course, it could just be a different brand.  Sometimes they do go bad.

Response:

Hey Mark! Thanks for the interesting post. The hole was probably there to vent heat away. I beleive a gfci of proper amp rating is pretty much a generic quanity. Gfci does some accounting for the electrons — it one goes out the black it should come back in the white.  If it gets lost gfci gets concerned. Enough lost he shuts the gate, knowing the electrons are going someplace they should not. Sheesh! the whole world is run by bean counters!  (grin). Thanks for the interesting post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help,    I have a junction box for my hot tub and the GFCI kept tripping off. I took it out and was going to replace it but it does not look like a standard GFCI switch. The back has a round hole in it and the hot wires were routed through it. I thougth it was just support for the wires but being the curious knucklehead, I took it apart and found wires coiled around the inside of the circle. I tried all the basic home centers and they did not have one like it, nor did they know what it was for. Can someone please help me? Why is this type of GFCI used and can a standard GFCI be used(without the coil)? Thanks in advance, Mark Niezgoda P.S. I am using a GFCI without the coilss and the hot tub works perfect now. I am just wondering if the other type served a specific purpose.

Johnnie

Response:

Please help,     I have a junction box for my hot tub and the GFCI kept tripping off. I took it out and was going to replace it but it does not look like a standard GFCI switch. The back has a round hole in it and the hot wires were routed through it. I thougth it was just support for the wires but being the curious knucklehead, I took it apart and found wires coiled around the inside of the circle. I tried all the basic home centers and they did not have one like it, nor did they know what it was for. Can someone please help me? Why is this type of GFCI used and can a standard GFCI be used(without the coil)? Thanks in advance, Mark Niezgoda P.S. I am using a GFCI without the coilss and the hot tub works perfect now. I am just wondering if the other type served a specific purpose.

Response:

Question:

I quit the Washington Society of CPAs this year. Nothing personal, but just couldn’t justify the $300 or whatever it is. Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back.   I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property. Huh?  What are they talking about?  I seem to recall getting some WSCPA stuff– the coffee mug and T-shirts, but I think I threw away the bumper stickers and other paper stuff.  I hope they’re not going to sue me, I thought we were just a club <g Todd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA. Hopefully you’ll find those organizations to be more helpful than the AI- and WS- CPA. <g MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA) http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back.   I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property.

Hmm–well I have my certificate from the Arizona Society (it’s framed and on my wall) and I can kind of understand *why* they don’t want people to pay dues once and then leave it on the wall <grin, but I don’t recall agreeing to send it back if I left the society. I think this is a bit of overkill.  After all, if you intentionally misled people to have them believe you were a member of the Washington Society when you are not, I would assume that would a) be very stupid if you ever got pulled into court (lying about credentials is going to make you look like you committed malpractice no matter what you do) and b) would likely be actionable as an "act discreditable to the profession" by the Washington State Board of Accountancy (similar to if I claimed to be a CFP or PFS when, in fact, I am not). The more interesting part is that most people claim their memberships not so much from clients seeing the framed membership certificate but rather from assertions made on letterhead and business cards.

Response:

Back in the remote backwater of my mind somewhere I seem to have a vague shadow of a recollection of having the same thing happen when I declined to renew with the AICPA.  It was 1979 and I was not of sound mind (I was going through a very painful divorce).  As well as I can recall, I threw the letter in the round file and forgot about it.  I don’t think they contacted me again regarding the matter. Now they just want me to join again, which I am not presently inclined to do. Jim Hudspeth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back. I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property. Hmm–well I have my certificate from the Arizona Society (it’s framed and on my wall) and I can kind of understand *why* they don’t want people to pay dues once and then leave it on the wall <grin, but I don’t recall agreeing to send it back if I left the society. I think this is a bit of overkill.  After all, if you intentionally misled people to have them believe you were a member of the Washington Society when you are not, I would assume that would a) be very stupid if you ever got pulled into court (lying about credentials is going to make you look like you committed malpractice no matter what you do) and b) would likely be actionable as an "act discreditable to the profession" by the Washington State Board of Accountancy (similar to if I claimed to be a CFP or PFS when, in fact, I am not). The more interesting part is that most people claim their memberships not so much from clients seeing the framed membership certificate but rather from assertions made on letterhead and business cards.

Response:

Comes now, in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back.

I remember returning my certificate years ago when I resigned. I ~think~ this requirement is in the bylaws… (The bylaws also require – or at least used to – that if you tried to re-join after having resigned, you had to pay the back dues for all of the intervening years! I wonder just how many times anyone has done that? <g) MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Write to the State Society that the certificate is available for them to pick up at your office during office hours next week. After that, it will go to the trash. (They may actually show up !) Y.M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I quit the Washington Society of CPAs this year. Nothing personal, but just couldn’t justify the $300 or whatever it is. Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back. I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property. Huh?  What are they talking about?  I seem to recall getting some WSCPA stuff– the coffee mug and T-shirts, but I think I threw away the bumper stickers and other paper stuff.  I hope they’re not going to sue me, I thought we were just a club <g Todd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA. Hopefully you’ll find those organizations to be more helpful than the AI- and WS- CPA. <g MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA) http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Back in the remote backwater of my mind somewhere I seem to have a vague shadow of a recollection of having the same thing happen when I declined to renew with the AICPA.  It was 1979 and I was not of sound mind (I was going through a very painful divorce).  As well as I can recall, I threw the letter in the round file and forgot about it.  I don’t think they contacted me again regarding the matter.

I was with the AICPA for a year, then decided that the dues amount was needed for another bill.  They asked for their Certificate back.  Since I never opened it I just wrote "return to sender" on the front and stuck it back in the mail about 9 months after I got it. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

Mike, Thanks for the follow up. I heard the same thing from a Washington Association of Accountants guy.  Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA. Jim Hudspeth, CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To follow up on some earlier discussions around here, I recently received a preliminary copy of the minutes from the WA State Board rules hearing in July. Said minutes indicate that the board is now considering *completely eliminating* the minimum "accounting and auditing" subject requirement from the board’s CPE rules (Yea!!!). This change should be approved at the board’s next meeting in October. MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA.

Hopefully you’ll find those organizations to be more helpful than the AI- and WS- CPA. <g MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

To follow up on some earlier discussions around here, I recently received a preliminary copy of the minutes from the WA State Board rules hearing in July. Said minutes indicate that the board is now considering *completely eliminating* the minimum "accounting and auditing" subject requirement from the board’s CPE rules (Yea!!!). This change should be approved at the board’s next meeting in October. MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Question:

The child performed an act of theft. Should he be allowed to get away with it, that will set the rule for the future. Whatever the extenuating circumstances, one does NOT take from others. However poorly the parenting job of the other parent, you need to set the example here, for the child’s benefit. — melinda 4make…@onlink.net msmith wrote in message <3693E0B0.2…@sonic.net>… >JimD7002 wrote:

 . When we were packing them up this last week, we noticed several ornaments missing from the tree. >> After questioning, the younger broke down and told us that he had hidden them >> away in his suitcase and that he was taking them back to his father!!

Basically, NCP dad had TOLD the >> son to steal the stuff from CP mom. >> How do you handle something like this??? >> Jim D.

 The boy has done nothing wrong and I would treat the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->situation that way. >Michael Smith

Response:

>From: jane…@mailexcite.com >Whether or not BF put him up to it, SS voluntary >stole something from you and BM to bring to BF’s home.  No >matter whose idea it was, SS bought into the idea of >redistribution of assets.  That sounds to me as though he feels >that the current situation is unfair in some way. From what >you’ve said, I gather your household has more income than BF’s >and has the kids most of the time.  I’d start looking there. >If I were DW, I’d discuss this with the kid. In a way what BF >said is true; the kid’s loyalties are being torn.  IMO, that’s >what you have to deal with. >jane

Jane, your point is well taken, and may hit very close to the truth. Throughout the whole period that the boys have lived with BM and me, the BF has always told the boys that "he sends BM all his money and he never has any", and the general "poor, poor me" syndrome. He also has told the older boy that he can’t get a job because BM will just go to court and take all his money away!! Rather than a torn sense of loyalty, it almost seems like the boys feel an extreme sense of sorrow and pity for BF and want to do something, anything to help change it. Younger SS is very prone to this, expecially where BF is considered. Older SS is in the throes of hormones and can barely think straight enough to get through the day!! LOL BF has been remarried for almost the same 7 years. His new wife is quite well off, owns a business in her name, and generally lets BF do what he wants. He works within the confines of her business but doesn’t make any $$ on paper. BM feels that if BF sees no need to send any additional $$ for CS, that’s his decision and he has to live with it. BM can provide for both sons just fine on her own if necessary. Thanks for the thoughtful insight. I would love to keep this discussion going if possible since I feel that this situation is somewhat unique. Ciao… Jim

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test only

Response:

Dear Jim We had a problem similar.   My suggestion to u is:  Tell the boys that anything in ur house stays in ur house no matter what.   Explain to them that when the divorce happened that both mom and dad split everything up.  So  even if there is something in the house that was bought while their parents were still married, it now belongs to the mom.  And explain to them that if they dont want their personal possessions being gave away such as, baseball mitts, favorite jeans, cd’s ect… with out their permission, that they had better think twice before they start to give things away from your house hold regardless of who paid for them.   And dont worry , the 10 year old will come around just as the 14 year old did.  It may take a little while but the cream always comes to the top, no matter what.   Another way of putting it to the NCP is that, if he is using his boys to steal things, that is child abuse and you can have him subpeonaed to court to be evaluated along with the boys and his visitation may be revoked for endangering a minor.   Just explain to him that this kind of behavior is illegal, immoral and not tolerated by the local authorities or the local friend of the courts.    Hope this helps

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JimD7002 wrote: > Hi Jane. Basically, the NCP dad has taken us to court for custody five times in > the last seven years. He’s lost his suit every time, due to not being able to > show enough income to support the children if he had custody, except through CP > mom paying LARGE CS. Given the fact that he has no other recourse through the > legal system, my wife and I believe that he will try these types of methods to > just plain be a pain in the ass to us. > The 10 year old has always had a romanticized view of NCP dad. Dad and Mom > divorced when he was barely two, so his memories are somewhat idealized. NCP > dad has the same style xmas tree when he has the boys for the holidays, so that > theory is laid to rest. Also, when NCP dad was confronted, he never said he did > not tell 10 year old to steal the ornaments, just that this showed the boys > were more loyal to him than to mom!! > His whole pattern over the seven years has been to get custody so CP mom has to > pay him CS, rather than he pay CS to mom. Right now, due to some rather > interesting laws in OK, he only pays $181.00 month total for the two boys. This > was due to some creative accounting when the divorce was taking place. He has > related to several people that he wants to "get back" at CP mom, one way or > another.

Jim, It’s still not adding up for me.  BF’s failure to deny your accusation isn’t the same as admitting its truth.  He could be motivated by anything from orneriness to covering for his son. I also have trouble believing that he would jeopardize his next custody attempt for something as petty as xmas ornaments.  Why would he even want them?  The only possible benefit I can see for him would be causing turmoil within your family.  That would only work if SS got caught, tho, and that would bring the risk of SS turning against him.   But that isn’t really the point.  Even within the framework of continued hostilities between the parents, this is a new development.  Whether or not BF put him up to it, SS voluntary stole something from you and BM to bring to BF’s home.  No matter whose idea it was, SS bought into the idea of redistribution of assets.  That sounds to me as though he feels that the current situation is unfair in some way. From what you’ve said, I gather your household has more income than BF’s and has the kids most of the time.  I’d start looking there. If I were DW, I’d discuss this with the kid. In a way what BF said is true; the kid’s loyalties are being torn.  IMO, that’s what you have to deal with. jane

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JimD7002 wrote: > >Maybe the conversation between BF and SS didn’t happen exactly > >the way SS recounted it to you.  I find it a little hard to > >believe that after 7 years BF suddenly asked SS to steal him > >some xmas ornaments.  My daughter is 11.  I’ve noticed that kids > >this age have trouble holding onto the hard facts when they > >relate a conversation.  What you say is not necessarily what > >they hear.  What they do hear changes around as they think about > >it.  Once you allow for a little poetic license in the > >recounting, an entirely different conversation comes out. > >There’s more to this story.  I get the feeling that something > >has changed with BF recently.  It sounds as though SS is upset > >that BF does not have the same "big deal" xmas tree that you > >do.  Or he’s upset that BF is not living with him.  I don’t > >understand where the "increased loyalty" conversation is coming > >from, either.  Are DW and her ex having a tug of war over the > >children?  What’s changed lately that has SS upset? > >jane > >From: jane…@mailexcite.com > Hi Jane. Basically, the NCP dad has taken us to court for custody five times in > the last seven years. He’s lost his suit every time, due to not being able to > show enough income to support the children if he had custody, except through CP > mom paying LARGE CS. Given the fact that he has no other recourse through the > legal system, my wife and I believe that he will try these types of methods to > just plain be a pain in the ass to us. > The 10 year old has always had a romanticized view of NCP dad. Dad and Mom > divorced when he was barely two, so his memories are somewhat idealized. NCP > dad has the same style xmas tree when he has the boys for the holidays, so that > theory is laid to rest. Also, when NCP dad was confronted, he never said he did > not tell 10 year old to steal the ornaments, just that this showed the boys > were more loyal to him than to mom!! > His whole pattern over the seven years has been to get custody so CP mom has to > pay him CS, rather than he pay CS to mom. Right now, due to some rather > interesting laws in OK, he only pays $181.00 month total for the two boys. This > was due to some creative accounting when the divorce was taking place. He has > related to several people that he wants to "get back" at CP mom, one way or > another. > Ciao > Jim

I know you didn’t ask for advice on this front, but I wonder if you could stop the constant court wrangling and general hard feelings by simply foregoing CS.  Even if the courts have otrdered it, you could just pay the Dad back each month.  Compared to the legal fees and other wear and tear of a custody battle, it may be worth it. Also, I get the sense that the Mom and you have fairly substantially more resources than the Dad does, and since he does see the kids, perhaps you could allow him to save his money to spend on the kids directly. This is the approach we took with my husband’s ex-wife when we got custody of his kids.  She would have been ordered to pay something on the order of $200-300, based on her income of ~$15,000/yr at the time, which is a pretty hefty chunk of disposable income at that level.   By refusing CS, my husband eliminated a major incentive she might have to take us back to court (we know she wants custody, but if she sues us, my husband has made it clear that she *will* pay CS if she loses), and removed a source of inequity in the eyes of the boys. Since your story seems similar to ours in that it describes a kid whose loyalty is a little torn, perhaps a generous move like that could ease the situation for everyone. Just an idea. SSM

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Maybe the conversation between BF and SS didn’t happen exactly >the way SS recounted it to you.  I find it a little hard to >believe that after 7 years BF suddenly asked SS to steal him >some xmas ornaments.  My daughter is 11.  I’ve noticed that kids >this age have trouble holding onto the hard facts when they >relate a conversation.  What you say is not necessarily what >they hear.  What they do hear changes around as they think about >it.  Once you allow for a little poetic license in the >recounting, an entirely different conversation comes out.   >There’s more to this story.  I get the feeling that something >has changed with BF recently.  It sounds as though SS is upset >that BF does not have the same "big deal" xmas tree that you >do.  Or he’s upset that BF is not living with him.  I don’t >understand where the "increased loyalty" conversation is coming >from, either.  Are DW and her ex having a tug of war over the >children?  What’s changed lately that has SS upset? >jane >From: jane…@mailexcite.com

Hi Jane. Basically, the NCP dad has taken us to court for custody five times in the last seven years. He’s lost his suit every time, due to not being able to show enough income to support the children if he had custody, except through CP mom paying LARGE CS. Given the fact that he has no other recourse through the legal system, my wife and I believe that he will try these types of methods to just plain be a pain in the ass to us. The 10 year old has always had a romanticized view of NCP dad. Dad and Mom divorced when he was barely two, so his memories are somewhat idealized. NCP dad has the same style xmas tree when he has the boys for the holidays, so that theory is laid to rest. Also, when NCP dad was confronted, he never said he did not tell 10 year old to steal the ornaments, just that this showed the boys were more loyal to him than to mom!! His whole pattern over the seven years has been to get custody so CP mom has to pay him CS, rather than he pay CS to mom. Right now, due to some rather interesting laws in OK, he only pays $181.00 month total for the two boys. This was due to some creative accounting when the divorce was taking place. He has related to several people that he wants to "get back" at CP mom, one way or another. Ciao Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JimD7002 wrote: > Hello All. Just as a point of ref, I’m the SF of two boys, 14 and 10 who reside > with us, mom is the CP. Mom and I have been married 7 years, and we have a 5 > year old son who loves his two older brothers…. > When we were setting out the tree for Christmas, we do the big deal with tree > decorations and ornaments. My wife collects them and the quantity is quite > vast. When we were packing them up this last week, we noticed several of the > more expensive ornaments missing from the tree. This is just prior to an > extended visit of the two boys to the NCP father. > After questioning, the younger broke down and told us that he had hidden them > away in his suitcase and that he was taking them back to his father!! He then > told us that he and his father had talked this over and that the ornaments were > really his(father’s) and not his mothers. (These are items that mom purchased > AFTER the divorce and during our marriage!!) Basically, NCP dad had TOLD the > son to steal the stuff from CP mom. > I must also admit to a less then amiable relationship between NCP and CP, with > mom just wishing that NCP would just leave us alone. None-the-less, mom called > NCP father up and asked if the story as told by the 10 year old was true. While > not denying the story, NCP dad proceded to tell CP mom that the reason the son > wanted to take the ornaments was due to an increased feeling of "loyalty" to > dad and not to mom!! > My question to you all is this. Have you ever had this happen and what did you > do about it? My worry is what may happen next. Will NCP dad tell the son that > if he burns the house down, he can come and live with him forever? NCP dad has > painted a strong picture of paradise if the boys lived with him. Fortunately, > the 14 year old has begun to see through the fog and realizes that things > really wouldn’t be any different, no matter what house he lives in. The 10 year > old, however, has dad set up on a much higher pedestal with a much different > memory of life with NCP dad. > How do you handle something like this??? > Ciao > Jim D.

Maybe the conversation between BF and SS didn’t happen exactly the way SS recounted it to you.  I find it a little hard to believe that after 7 years BF suddenly asked SS to steal him some xmas ornaments.  My daughter is 11.  I’ve noticed that kids this age have trouble holding onto the hard facts when they relate a conversation.  What you say is not necessarily what they hear.  What they do hear changes around as they think about it.  Once you allow for a little poetic license in the recounting, an entirely different conversation comes out.   There’s more to this story.  I get the feeling that something has changed with BF recently.  It sounds as though SS is upset that BF does not have the same "big deal" xmas tree that you do.  Or he’s upset that BF is not living with him.  I don’t understand where the "increased loyalty" conversation is coming from, either.  Are DW and her ex having a tug of war over the children?  What’s changed lately that has SS upset? jane

Response:

Hello All. Just as a point of ref, I’m the SF of two boys, 14 and 10 who reside with us, mom is the CP. Mom and I have been married 7 years, and we have a 5 year old son who loves his two older brothers…. When we were setting out the tree for Christmas, we do the big deal with tree decorations and ornaments. My wife collects them and the quantity is quite vast. When we were packing them up this last week, we noticed several of the more expensive ornaments missing from the tree. This is just prior to an extended visit of the two boys to the NCP father. After questioning, the younger broke down and told us that he had hidden them away in his suitcase and that he was taking them back to his father!! He then told us that he and his father had talked this over and that the ornaments were really his(father’s) and not his mothers. (These are items that mom purchased AFTER the divorce and during our marriage!!) Basically, NCP dad had TOLD the son to steal the stuff from CP mom. I must also admit to a less then amiable relationship between NCP and CP, with mom just wishing that NCP would just leave us alone. None-the-less, mom called NCP father up and asked if the story as told by the 10 year old was true. While not denying the story, NCP dad proceded to tell CP mom that the reason the son wanted to take the ornaments was due to an increased feeling of "loyalty" to dad and not to mom!! My question to you all is this. Have you ever had this happen and what did you do about it? My worry is what may happen next. Will NCP dad tell the son that if he burns the house down, he can come and live with him forever? NCP dad has painted a strong picture of paradise if the boys lived with him. Fortunately, the 14 year old has begun to see through the fog and realizes that things really wouldn’t be any different, no matter what house he lives in. The 10 year old, however, has dad set up on a much higher pedestal with a much different memory of life with NCP dad. How do you handle something like this??? Ciao Jim D.

Response:

Jim,     I have definitely been there.  Our NCP has done a good job at painting a rosy picture also, at the expense of the oldest living with him.  I feel you guys did the right thing by talking about this and then confronting the NCP, but as in our situation it looks like  it made you more frustrated.  From one step-parent to another,  I pray for all of the step-families each and every night and will continue to do so.  I can’t thing of a more challenging situation.  Not the kids, but the ex.  Best luck in the future! Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JimD7002 wrote in message <19990106204734.05626.00003…@ng-ch1.aol.com>… >Hello All. Just as a point of ref, I’m the SF of two boys, 14 and 10 who reside >with us, mom is the CP. Mom and I have been married 7 years, and we have a 5 >year old son who loves his two older brothers…. >When we were setting out the tree for Christmas, we do the big deal with tree >decorations and ornaments. My wife collects them and the quantity is quite >vast. When we were packing them up this last week, we noticed several of the >more expensive ornaments missing from the tree. This is just prior to an >extended visit of the two boys to the NCP father. >After questioning, the younger broke down and told us that he had hidden them >away in his suitcase and that he was taking them back to his father!! He then >told us that he and his father had talked this over and that the ornaments were >really his(father’s) and not his mothers. (These are items that mom purchased >AFTER the divorce and during our marriage!!) Basically, NCP dad had TOLD the >son to steal the stuff from CP mom. >I must also admit to a less then amiable relationship between NCP and CP, with >mom just wishing that NCP would just leave us alone. None-the-less, mom called >NCP father up and asked if the story as told by the 10 year old was true. While >not denying the story, NCP dad proceded to tell CP mom that the reason the son >wanted to take the ornaments was due to an increased feeling of "loyalty" to >dad and not to mom!! >My question to you all is this. Have you ever had this happen and what did you >do about it? My worry is what may happen next. Will NCP dad tell the son that >if he burns the house down, he can come and live with him forever? NCP dad has >painted a strong picture of paradise if the boys lived with him. Fortunately, >the 14 year old has begun to see through the fog and realizes that things >really wouldn’t be any different, no matter what house he lives in. The 10 year >old, however, has dad set up on a much higher pedestal with a much different >memory of life with NCP dad. >How do you handle something like this??? >Ciao >Jim D.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JimD7002 wrote: > Hello All. Just as a point of ref, I’m the SF of two boys, 14 and 10 who reside > with us, mom is the CP. Mom and I have been married 7 years, and we have a 5 > year old son who loves his two older brothers…. > When we were setting out the tree for Christmas, we do the big deal with tree > decorations and ornaments. My wife collects them and the quantity is quite > vast. When we were packing them up this last week, we noticed several of the > more expensive ornaments missing from the tree. This is just prior to an > extended visit of the two boys to the NCP father. > After questioning, the younger broke down and told us that he had hidden them > away in his suitcase and that he was taking them back to his father!! He then > told us that he and his father had talked this over and that the ornaments were > really his(father’s) and not his mothers. (These are items that mom purchased > AFTER the divorce and during our marriage!!) Basically, NCP dad had TOLD the > son to steal the stuff from CP mom. > I must also admit to a less then amiable relationship between NCP and CP, with > mom just wishing that NCP would just leave us alone. None-the-less, mom called > NCP father up and asked if the story as told by the 10 year old was true. While > not denying the story, NCP dad proceded to tell CP mom that the reason the son > wanted to take the ornaments was due to an increased feeling of "loyalty" to > dad and not to mom!! > My question to you all is this. Have you ever had this happen and what did you > do about it? My worry is what may happen next. Will NCP dad tell the son that > if he burns the house down, he can come and live with him forever? NCP dad has > painted a strong picture of paradise if the boys lived with him. Fortunately, > the 14 year old has begun to see through the fog and realizes that things > really wouldn’t be any different, no matter what house he lives in. The 10 year > old, however, has dad set up on a much higher pedestal with a much different > memory of life with NCP dad. > How do you handle something like this??? > Ciao > Jim D.

You say the son basicly stole the ornements from you. I think that is wrong. He was told by an adult that society would have him trust that it was his and the son would be returning the property to the proper owner. Further the boy may be a bit uneasy so he wants to go to his father bearing gifts. The boy has done nothing wrong and I would treat the situation that way. You say the father says the son is showing his loyality to him. That is a little sick if you think about adults who have broken up a family asking the kids for loyality. I wouldn’t play anywhere near that game if I was you.   I can understand you being anxious about what further the father may put him up to. Only you know if this is a realistic fear. Some people worry about earthquakes. Michael Smith

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Question:

Hi,my friends What’s requirement for CPA exam. any accounting working experience needed? who is qualified to take CPA exam? Is there any program for preparation of CPA exam in US? I study MBA in Israel. I’d appreciate you for your help. Thanks Gao

Response:

Gao, Each state has its own Board of Accountacy which is responsible for setting the requirements necessary to sit for the CPA exam, and to be fully licensed. In addition to the accounting course requirements, there are requirements for so many credits in economics, humanities, etc.  Generally, the following courses in accounting are required to even sit for the exam. Intermediate Accounting I & II Cost Accounting Business Law I & II Auditing Advanced Accounting Inividual Taxation Corporate Taxation Now, getting licensed is a whole other matter.  In addition to passing all four parts of the CPA examination, you must have two years of  audit experience in a public accounting firm. Have fun.

Response:

Actually, most states are dropping the auditing requirement-all you have to do in a lot of states is work under/for a cpa-doesn’t have to be in public accounting.

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Governed by individual State Boards of Accountancy.  Requirements vary all over the place.  Most jurisdictions require a four year degree, with at least 30 hours of accounting, and some experience.  Some States will permit you to sit anytime, but not grant certificate until requirements are fulfilled, some states let you sit as soon as education requirements fulfilled, some states do not permit an individual to sit until all requirements for certificate except examination are complete.  Partial credit rules vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction also.   Mike A Salty Bear Mike A Salty Bear

Response:

I’m thinking of burning my CPA certificate.  The ongoing fees really add up, running at least $2000/year and for what?  Nothing of value to my clients. These payments are like paying homage to the elites who have managed to insert themselves into our business: 1. liability insurance.  As a CPA you have 100 times the legal exposure of a non CPA.   In effect, you can be sued for the losses or liabilities of your clients, if you somehow fail to identify them and report them in their financial statements. 2.  AICPA and state society dues 3.  Accredited CPE courses 4.  Continual extra time and busywork, preparing footnotes and compilation letters for any "Financial Statements" I’m "associated with".   Yes, I have committed that profane and forbidden act of clicking on "Financial Statements" without preparing a compilation letter!  And I’m not ashamed of it either.   My clients print their P&L many times a month and when I’m working on their site, I’m not going to ask them to walk over and "push the button", to avoid printing their financial statements.  I don’t even know what the bloomin’ things contain until I have printed them out and reviewed them! Ooops, there I go again, saying the forbidden word, "reviewed".   Now they can SUE me for that.   Sheesh.  How did independent CPAs ever let ourselves get so restricted, by the lawyers and these self-serving CPA societies?  I wish the states would regulate the profession and stop delegating it to these self-appointed, non-democratic professional organizations. Obviously, few CPAs will agree with me in public. Todd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Governed by individual State Boards of Accountancy.  Requirements vary all over the place.  Most jurisdictions require a four year degree, with at least 30 hours of accounting, and some experience.  Some States will permit you to sit anytime, but not grant certificate until requirements are fulfilled, some states let you sit as soon as education requirements fulfilled, some states do not permit an individual to sit until all requirements for certificate except examination are complete.  Partial credit rules vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction also.   Mike A Salty Bear Mike A Salty Bear

Response:

I’m thinking of burning my CPA certificate.  The ongoing fees really add up, running at least $2000/year and for what?  Nothing of value to my clients. These payments are like paying homage to the elites who have managed to insert themselves into our business:

Todd, I agree with you 100% on this.  Actually, back in ‘92, I sold my practice in Texas, and moved to Arkansas.  I actually let my certificate lapse in Texas, as they were holding it hostage for big $.  But I had to reinstate it later when I bought into a firm in Arkansas.  But I do believe we, as CPAs, have made a terrible mistake with this association running the show. I have, for years, felt the worst vote I ever cast was voting FOR peer review. Stupid idea, stupid, stupid…. The AICPA and state societies have no idea how to deal with the changes the profession is undergoing at this time.  And those who stick literally to the rules are going to be left behind… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. liability insurance.  As a CPA you have 100 times the legal exposure of a non CPA.   In effect, you can be sued for the losses or liabilities of your clients, if you somehow fail to identify them and report them in their financial statements. 2.  AICPA and state society dues 3.  Accredited CPE courses 4.  Continual extra time and busywork, preparing footnotes and compilation letters for any "Financial Statements" I’m "associated with". Yes, I have committed that profane and forbidden act of clicking on "Financial Statements" without preparing a compilation letter!  And I’m not ashamed of it either.   My clients print their P&L many times a month and when I’m working on their site, I’m not going to ask them to walk over and "push the button", to avoid printing their financial statements.  I don’t even know what the bloomin’ things contain until I have printed them out and reviewed them! Ooops, there I go again, saying the forbidden word, "reviewed".   Now they can SUE me for that. Sheesh.  How did independent CPAs ever let ourselves get so restricted, by the lawyers and these self-serving CPA societies?  I wish the states would regulate the profession and stop delegating it to these self-appointed, non-democratic professional organizations. Obviously, few CPAs will agree with me in public. Todd Governed by individual State Boards of Accountancy.  Requirements vary all over the place.  Most jurisdictions require a four year degree, with at least 30 hours of accounting, and some experience.  Some States will permit you to sit anytime, but not grant certificate until requirements are fulfilled, some states let you sit as soon as education requirements fulfilled, some states do not permit an individual to sit until all requirements for certificate except examination are complete.  Partial credit rules vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction also. Mike A Salty Bear Mike A Salty Bear

Response:

That’s today’s business atmosphere no matter what the business. I do agree that the state societies and the state boards are tools of the big 4, 2, 9, whatever with a poor attitude towards the small practioner. But that’s where we are and not much is going to change it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of burning my CPA certificate.  The ongoing fees really add up, running at least $2000/year and for what?  Nothing of value to my clients. These payments are like paying homage to the elites who have managed to insert themselves into our business: 1. liability insurance.  As a CPA you have 100 times the legal exposure of a non CPA.   In effect, you can be sued for the losses or liabilities of your clients, if you somehow fail to identify them and report them in their financial statements. 2.  AICPA and state society dues 3.  Accredited CPE courses 4.  Continual extra time and busywork, preparing footnotes and compilation letters for any "Financial Statements" I’m "associated with". Yes, I have committed that profane and forbidden act of clicking on "Financial Statements" without preparing a compilation letter!  And I’m not ashamed of it either.   My clients print their P&L many times a month and when I’m working on their site, I’m not going to ask them to walk over and "push the button", to avoid printing their financial statements.  I don’t even know what the bloomin’ things contain until I have printed them out and reviewed them! Ooops, there I go again, saying the forbidden word, "reviewed".   Now they can SUE me for that. Sheesh.  How did independent CPAs ever let ourselves get so restricted, by the lawyers and these self-serving CPA societies?  I wish the states would regulate the profession and stop delegating it to these self-appointed, non-democratic professional organizations. Obviously, few CPAs will agree with me in public. Todd Governed by individual State Boards of Accountancy.  Requirements vary all over the place.  Most jurisdictions require a four year degree, with at least 30 hours of accounting, and some experience.  Some States will permit you to sit anytime, but not grant certificate until requirements are fulfilled, some states let you sit as soon as education requirements fulfilled, some states do not permit an individual to sit until all requirements for certificate except examination are complete.  Partial credit rules vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction also. Mike A Salty Bear Mike A Salty Bear

Response:

You know what? I have the four year degree, but in Nevada, you have to work for one for two years, 1500 audit hours, and some other goofy stuff. I was in the feds for a while, so never even met a "real" CPA until we hired one. I gave the feds up, work on my own, and don’t have the liability and fees associated. Much better, and don’t regret it one bit. I never made my boss any money, because I’ve been my own boss from day one. I wouldn’t change it for anything. Confidential, professional, affordable bookkeeping for Boulder City, Henderson, & Las Vegas

Response:

Question:

My company is starting up a non-profit thriftstore, similar to Goodwill Industries. Since all of the items we sell will be donated, we have a question on whether we should recognize revenue when a donation is received. I know that according to GAAP, donations are usually recognized as revenue as long as the amount is significant and the value can be determined fairly. But how can we determine a fair value of the donated item, as most will be used and some won’t be worth selling? Are there any exceptions, which allow non-profits to wait until such items are sold to recognize revenue? Also, if we do recognize revenue what are the proper accounting entries to be made for the donation and then for the sale of the same donated item? This is my best attempt at such an entry:  DR  CR Inventory  5  Donated Revenue  5 to record the donation of an item valued at $5 Cash  10 Donated Expense  5  Inventory  5  Sales  10 to record the sale of the same item for $10 Any help or advise in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Response:

fasb 116 says contributions should be recognized when they are received. They should be recognized at their "fair market" value…  That is where your problem comes about, what to consider fair value.  The debit would be to inventory and the credit to contributions….  the fair value would be an estimate of value.  the value would be tested in an audit by noting history and subsequent sales of merchandise.  the je at sale would be a dr to cash then a credit to inventory (at the value determined at donation) and the je would be balanced by some account that quantifies the over or undervaluation of the contribution (IE gain/loss on valuation of inventory)….. have fun – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company is starting up a non-profit thriftstore, similar to Goodwill Industries. Since all of the items we sell will be donated, we have a question on whether we should recognize revenue when a donation is received. I know that according to GAAP, donations are usually recognized as revenue as long as the amount is significant and the value can be determined fairly. But how can we determine a fair value of the donated item, as most will be used and some won’t be worth selling? Are there any exceptions, which allow non-profits to wait until such items are sold to recognize revenue? Also, if we do recognize revenue what are the proper accounting entries to be made for the donation and then for the sale of the same donated item? This is my best attempt at such an entry:  DR  CR Inventory  5  Donated Revenue  5 to record the donation of an item valued at $5 Cash  10 Donated Expense  5  Inventory     5  Sales  10 to record the sale of the same item for $10 Any help or advise in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Response:

Question:

>Plus my diet has worsened as well.  I even eat pizza occasionally! My >weight has dropped from 145 to 125 since last school year.  Since I’m 5 >’7 this has been a rather dangerous weight loss.  Plus I’m very >depressed as everyone here already knows.

Billy, this can be partially explained by the fact that muscle is a lot *heavier* than fat.  If some of that well tuned muscular physique (I’m just guessing here!) has turned to fat, then you will become a bit lighter.  I had this bad fitness habit of exercising like mad during the summer months, and then slacking off through the winter.  I can still remember the frustration of the first few weeks in May when the bike always used to come out the garage. I’d go from having no exercise to cycling maybe 200 miles or more a week … and actually put on several pounds in weight! This summer was a little different.  I moved in to a new house, and had loads of decorating and boring chores to do (cooking, washing, tidying, house-keeping, accounting etc… all the things you don’t have to worry about so often when you’re living with your parents), so my level of exercise taled right off to nil.  Do you know what?  I actually lost weight for a while!  I’m back on a diet now, and a moderate amount of exercise per week, and my weight has kind of stabilised. Steve.

Response:

Billy Shears wrote: > snip snip

 What > gives?  I thought depression, laziness, an unheathy diet and not eating > enough was supposed to make one’s vital statistics worsen, not IMPROVE! > Can someone explain why I’m getting so much healthier all of a sudden? > AT this rate I’ll probably end up living another 100 years.

You might want to give  http://www.drweil.com  a try.

Response:

I’ve noticed a strange trend developing recently. Back in my teenage years I used to run about 25 miles a week, lift weights and bicycle around 120 miles a week.  Plus I always ate healthy foods and I wasn’t nearly as depressed as I am now.  Guess what?  My resting heart rate hovered around 80 and my blood pressure averaged about 135/80.   Before my running class started I barely got any physical exercise at all.  Over the summer I worked too much to exercise and since the school year started I’ve only felt like running and cycling maybe twice a week. Plus my diet has worsened as well.  I even eat pizza occasionally! My weight has dropped from 145 to 125 since last school year.  Since I’m 5 ‘7 this has been a rather dangerous weight loss.  Plus I’m very depressed as everyone here already knows. Well guess what!  I checked my pulse and blood pressure a couple weeks ago and my pulse had dropped to 54 and my blood pressure is 98/60.  What gives?  I thought depression, laziness, an unheathy diet and not eating enough was supposed to make one’s vital statistics worsen, not IMPROVE! Can someone explain why I’m getting so much healthier all of a sudden? AT this rate I’ll probably end up living another 100 years.    -Billy Shears

Response:

Billy Shears wrote: > Well guess what!  I checked my pulse and blood pressure a couple weeks > ago and my pulse had dropped to 54 and my blood pressure is 98/60.  What > gives?  I thought depression, laziness, an unheathy diet and not eating > enough was supposed to make one’s vital statistics worsen, not IMPROVE! > Can someone explain why I’m getting so much healthier all of a sudden? > AT this rate I’ll probably end up living another 100 years.

I would guess the statistics (I presume your cholesterol is below 160) are a result of very low fat intake. Unfortunately, very low fat intake also accelerates depression, often into full blown suicidal ideation. (The fat content is essential for neural structure, or so I ma told by my friend from NIH). I would strongly suggest that you up the fat intake – keeping the same exercise regimen of course. When I was your age I had the same sort of stats, and was 5′6", 125 lbs. I also worked at a redneck Oil company in the heart of New Orleans, where hostility against ‘little guys’ (often derisively called ‘little fruits’, was renowned. I realized I would be ‘toast’ if I didn’t bulk up and I did so. Weightlifted 4 hours every day, had my share of raw eggs and milk and Joe Wieder’s special protein ‘blends’. I soon (3 most.) got to 165 pounds, all solid muscle. (Some Mississipi redneck of 240 lbs, made a wise ass comment to me and I called his bluff right there, but he chickened out). Point is, after bulking up the depression I’d been saddled with so many years abated. Not only that, the hormones kicked in like crazy and I found I actually had chicks pursuing me. They would come to my apt., peer into my bedroom, then ask me how the bed felt. They wanted to try it out. This euphoric state did not last long, however. I soon found I had to maintain a ‘tough guy’ stance all the time, just to stave off rednecks all around the place. I had to adopt a hostile demeanor – no smiles, no how. Eventually, I also found myself getting into awful habits like shewing tobacco, smoking two packs of Marlboro 100’s each day, eating like no tomorrow, and wrecking my stats (bp 160/100, chol. 220, resting heartrate 95 etc.) None of that changed until I left that hostile environment (went into Peace Corps in Barbados). There, I basically kept a steady weight of 155, and ate lots of fatty stuff (pudding and souse, flying fish & cuccoo, Bajan fried chicken – but continually burned it off by exercising nearly every waking minute of the day (well, they didn’t allow cars so you had to walk or take a bus – not very reliable – wherever you went). Bottom line – there needs to be a balance between caloric-fat intake, good exercise, and an environment conducive to mental peace and harmony. If all there are not there (plus look at your vitamin intake – I make sure to take at least 1200 mg of lecithin and 2500 mg of C daily) you will be more inclined to depressive episodes. And needless to say, before undergoing any change in regimen, including diet – a person should have a physical exam, to make sure there are no hidden causes of depression. (Or deleterious causes of the ‘great’ stats!) — "We can have democracy or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. We cannot have both."  - Justice Louis Brandeis.

Response:

Question:

Cameron, pay no attention to this seemingly intelligent response,

Hey, I thought they all laffed at my posts, Mickey! Oh…and thanks for using newsranger again! LOL! Keep returning to the scene of the crime…too easy… — Carl We’re bigger than Jesus! – JWLennon

Response:

There is no law against calling an agency (late in the day when they are not busy) and asking questions like can they recommend a good headshot photographer or a class. I used to work at a talent agency. Best to call early in the morning. Agent won’t be there but most likely wouldn’t talk to you anyway. But an assistant will give you some pointers.

Things must be different inthe States than in canada, …but up here, early in the morning is choas at an agency. That’s their busiest time. Things are usually less frenetic later in the day, …and I used to be an agent.

Response:

That teacher gave invaluable advice about the business realities of this job.  There are few professions in life where mastering your craft brings so little guarantee of success as this one.  How much better off a person would be if they had the same passion for accounting or doctoring or programming.  Yes, or garbage collecting.

Cameron, passion can be internally generated or externally generated. A good paycheck can motivate people almost (stress, "almost") as much as the creative urge of the arts. The problem with acting is, it is one of the only performing arts (dance being another, and that’s about all I can think of) where an audience is critical to the full experience the artist can attain while performing his art. (I was tempted to add music, but since that’s a static activity, the artist can divorce himself from the craft and listen with a "third ear" so to speak.) So in order to appreciate the craft, you have to perform. I occasionally sit down with one of my old teachers, and her first comment to me is, "Are you working? Because if you aren’t working, you aren’t an actor, you’re an acting student." Good point, I think, but… Acting also, because of it’s interactive nature (and here, it diverges from dance) AND because a good actor makes it seem so easy, doesn’t garner the respect as a craft that it should. The audience sees it, says, "Hell, I can do that!" and walks out unimpressed. There’s no magic (OK, there’s another craft that requires an audience) for the audience, which is exactly as it should be from the artistic point of view. Acting is a subtle form of persuasion, something most actors never understand. They’d rather hear the applause. So the actor has to ask himself, "what is this passion that is driving me? Is it the need for acceptance by the audience? Or is it that I’m communicating who I am?" There are plenty of narcissists in acting who would tell you there is no greater thrill than to walk off stage to a standing ovation. But the actors who ultimately count, who end up influencing and altering the direction the form takes, can’t wait to get off stage and recover themselves. So where does this fit in with your teacher’s advice? Simple. There are a LOT more of the first, and a lot fewer of the second, and that makes all the difference to why the craft stinks and pays so badly and jobs are so hard to get. — Carl We’re bigger than Jesus! – JWLennon

Response:

Dear David, Good points which should spark a few threads…. here is my two cents worth…. So here’s the advice part (based on my experience if I could do it again):

David, when you have the chance, share more details about the training and experience you’ve had. 1.    Don’t lock yourself into a full time degree program. NONE of them teach you about the real world. You will only become lazy (with regard to your career) and will waste months or years learning things like how to breathe from your diaphragm or how to enunciate.

BFA and MFA (or even the BA or MA) acting programs are not for all people…. clearly, many actors have achieved artistic and (in some cases) immense financial success and fame by just "doing it."  Learning on the job, apprenticing.  Leonardo DeCaprio brags about the fact that he never studied at university, never took an acting class.  Sigourney Weaver did her Yale MFA, and Marlon Brando studied (briefly) with Strasberg and then switched to Stella Adler, and credits her for his acting brilliance. David, there are over 400 accredited college/university/conservatory actor training programs in the country, according to to the most recent "Directory of Theatre Training Programs."  (Pause…. the gifted editor of the annual of this directory just passed away last week…. she was a friend and colleague.)  Back to reality…. there are programs which virtually guarantee artistic success…. if you qualify.  Complete and get a degree from Goodman Institute (Chicago), Julliard (NYC), ACT (San Francisco) or a dozen other schools, and you ‘vet got a shot.  These are schools that teach not just the fundamentals of acting, but also the "biz" — the resumes, headsets, audition techniques and all that "stuff" about agencies, unions, the interview techniques and the marketing. Truth be told, that vast majority of these 400 schools are NOT qualified to prepare actors for "show biz"  — the art/craft or the biz.  But some are, and their qualification standards are exacting.  At the best conservatories, thousands of people submit their applications, resumes, tapes and audition…. and maybe 8-10 actors are selected each year. David, with respect,  you may feel that the classes you took in voice/speech/movement and diaphragmatic breathing were irrelevant…. but they make a difference for many actors. 2.    Continue asking questions of other ‘working’ actors as well as industry professionals such as agencies, yes I said agencies. There is no law against calling an agency (late in the day when they are not busy) and asking questions like can they recommend a good headshot photographer or a class.

Good advice, David.  Chances are that in NIGH or LA, even Chicago, you’ll never talk to the major decision maker.  But in medium and smaller markets, if you understand the "rhythm" of the market, you might be able to "chat up" with an associate and get some decent advice, and some clues. 3.    Speaking of classes. If you get yourself a flexible full time or part time job and save money

Well, fer sure, most actors, when starting out, need flex time from the "supporting job"  to support the real career (acting). (the same $40,000 from loans, family, my savings and part time jobs I spent to ‘train’ to be an actor could still be supporting me today)

But remember, David that this $40,000 was your investment.  Frankly, I’m shocked and sympathetic. to start taking classes NOW like how to present yourself on camera, or how to audition, or how to study a script…Pick very specific classes and work your ass off in them. And if you really want to go college take business and marketing classes and minor in acting, or even better, take off campus acting classes.

A mix of good advice, David.  I truly appreciate your suggestion that the actor do some research.  Shop around.  Caveat Emptore. 4.    Get a headshot and start looking for an agent right off the bat (don’t expect anything to come of it if you’re just starting out, but at lease (sic) you’ll get your face out there and you might even get your first agent from a class that will showcase you in front of agents). Speaking of which, one of the classes you take should focus on putting together a headshot and resume, but be careful you don’t get soaked for $4000 for one shot and a bunch of promises. One class which might help you get your first picture should cost a total, no more than, $500. Now you can see where the job comes in handy. A lot of $100 or so charges adds up quickly.

Jill Charles, a colleague  and friend, just passed way last week….. a single mom, from cancer, at 53, so, so young….. and she wrote the best book on resumes  and headshots It’s called The Actor’s Picture Resume Book (second edition), available at: http:www:/theatredirectories.com 5.    Do not move to L.A. or N.Y.C. yet! DO NOT. Unless you know someone very important (not just the valet at the Mann’s Chinese Theatre) who can open a door for you, you would be much better in a smaller city like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City where you have a chance to learn, book local commercials and industrials and get your SAG card.

Damn good advice.  Other markets where you can learn your trade and get your union cards include Seattle, Boston, San Diego and other cities, north of the Mason Dixon line.  There are many good markets in the so-called right-to-work marketplaces in which it’s possible to do both,  but it ain’t easy. Unless your dream involves community theatre you’ll have to move from nowhere USA to a larger market. If you don’t have any training, credits or a union card don’t go to the big one’s. I have friends who live in L.A. with SAG cards, series leads, national commercials and such who still have trouble getting work.

Yep, it’s a competitive market.  There are…. what 55,000 members of SAG and AFTRA in L.A. county and vicinity. from Southern California.    And that means that any time a non-union moves from Podunk, Iowa, despite good credits and training,  to L.A., he/she starts from scratch, especially if you have not earned a SAG/AFTRA or Equity card. And please don’t be one of those wannabe’s who thinks Scorcese will come to a screeching halt in traffic because he saw you walking down the street…Give it a good 5 years in a smaller market taking classes, auditioning, booking jobs, building your resume and getting your union card before you go to that market. 6    Don’t scoff at those who have been there. Listen to what people who have been there and are still there have to say.

And once you’ve internalized their arguments, do what’s special…. take a risk…. Michael Shurtleff talks about this in his book, "Audition." 7    It might sound like a cliche but it’s true, it’s not show ART, it’s show BUSINESS.

Actually, it’s the combination. When you become an actor you start your own business (hence the business and marketing classes). And like any business, if you don’t market the product (in this case yourself) it won’t sell. Do you think Colonel Sanders (God rest his secret recipe of herbs and spices soul) started out a success? It’s chicken for Pete’s sake! Marketing, my dear, marketing…you and I are no different that a million others standing around waving our spicy drumsticks in the air saying ‘look at me, look at me!’ Don’t waste your time doing things and spending money and time on things that don’t matter! (oh and by the way, the competition in the entertainment industry is nothing like the real world which pales in comparison)

Marketing matters, friend, on at least several levels:  But you are mixing two different industries…. advertising and what the the acting/directing business does and does well..  Chicken sells because it’s edible and tastes like…. well… chicken, and sells better when it’s well marketed, and gosh only knows even Colonel Sanders needs good actors to get that message across.   And yet it’s possible to build entire local and national industries on non actors who have zip talent… usually folks who own the business, like Cal Worthington who sells cars in Southern California, or Dave the burger guy who went F.C.  during last year’s strike. I could g/ on and on, but I hope I have given you a shot of reality. I’ll say the same thing my acting teacher said to me in 1984 when I said I wanted to be a professional actor. "If there is absolutely anything else in the world you can see yourself doing to make money, do that instead. If not, have fun because you’re in for more highs and lows, unemployment, rejection, humiliation, backstabbing, false friends, and uncertainty than any human being should be subjected to."

Then maybe Starmaker is correct.   Maybe if you study with  a coach who is no longer acting or directing professionally, then maybe you are studying with an academic who has great theory and not a lot of ongoing practical experience, so therefore teaches, ’cause he/she can no longer do. Break a leg, Bill– THE ACTING STUDIO http://gvtg.com/theactingstudio

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could go on and on, but I hope I have given you a shot of reality. I’ll say the same thing my acting teacher said to me in 1984 when I said I wanted to be a professional actor. "If there is absolutely anything else in the world you can see yourself doing to make money, do that instead. I find "acting teachers" to be the most encouraging professionals in the world. But I think that acting teacher was thinking about themself when he/she made the statement, "If there is absolutely anything else in the world you can see yourself doing to make money, do that instead." At least he/she took their own advise and made money doing teacher acting instead. Anybody that teaches a certain subject and then turns around and makes statements like that is not someone you would want to have for a teacher. They should be shot! The Starmaker "Hi, I would like to learn how to play the piano!" "Wouldn’t you rather be a garbage collector?, I hate teaching piano." "Go away kid you bother me" "I WANT TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE PIANO YOU STUPID TEACHER!!!" "FUCK OFF KID, BEFORE I SLAM THE PIANO ON YOUR FINGERS!!"

I couldn’t disagree with you more.   That teacher gave invaluable advice about the business realities of this job.  There are few professions in life where mastering your craft brings so little guarantee of success as this one.  How much better off a person would be if they had the same passion for accounting or doctoring or programming.  Yes, or garbage collecting. I’ve met some quacks masquerading as acting teachers, but I’ve also met some inspired, talented, brilliant people whose flawless insight taught me things I’d never have learned on my own.  To dismiss an acting teacher as you do here, for pointing out the difficulties of pursuing this life, is something I couldn’t disagree with more.  To dismiss and invalidate anyone on such slight evidence is a strange kind of hubris.  Are you sure you "find acting teachers to be the most encouraging professionals in the world?"  The rest of your post seems to negate this.  Or was there some implied sarcasm in your opening phrase that got stripped away in the posting? I agree completely with David; the instructor gave meaningful advice. I only wish my day job brought me the kind of satisfaction I get from acting, but it doesn’t even come close.  That’s why I pursue this whenever I can.  No, it ain’t easy, but at least I can’t say I was uninformed.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – m, First off I would like to congratulate you for considering such a drastic departure from a non-performance background such as biology and following your passion. With that said, here is my advice to you…If you are going to pursue acting, you cannot *CANNOT* do it half-hearted. There is no room for excuses or ‘I’d like to do that but..’ If you are complacent about becoming a ‘professional actor’ (and not just a wannabe) you will find yourself working a minimum wage shift job, 15 years later, sitting around your one room apartment waiting for the phone to ring and complaining about how you haven’t had an audition in months and griping about how everyone else gets the breaks but you. Trust me on this one, I speak from experience. I left school after completing 8 YEARS of post secondary education, all of it specializing in acting, theatre and film and have taken more classes than I can count only to be instilled with this false sense of entitlement that many actors have (‘I’m good so I’ll get hired for sure’). As a result it took me another 8 years to wake up and realize I needed to work if I wanted to work. When 1-2% of all SAG actors are making more than $100,000/per annum and approximately 70-80% are making around $10,000 you need to realize (if you want to do this full time) that it’s going to take a lot of work to be one of the 30% who make between $30-70,000 (in other words, enough to support yourself and a family). So here’s the advice part (based on my experience if I could do it again): 1.    Don’t lock yourself into a full time degree program. NONE of them teach you about the real world. You will only become lazy (with regard to your career) and will waste months or years learning things like how to breathe from your diaphragm or how to enunciate. 2.    Continue asking questions of other ‘working’ actors as well as industry professionals such as agencies, yes I said agencies. There is no law against calling an agency (late in the day when they are not busy) and asking questions like can they recommend a good headshot photographer or a class. 3.    Speaking of classes. If you get yourself a flexible full time or part time job and save money (the same $40,000 from loans, family, my savings and part time jobs I spent to ‘train’ to be an actor could still be supporting me today) to start taking classes NOW like how to present yourself on camera, or how to audition, or how to study a script…Pick very specific classes and work your ass off in them. And if you really want to go college take business and marketing classes and minor in acting, or even better, take off campus acting classes. 4.    Get a headshot and start looking for an agent right off the bat (don’t expect anything to come of it if you’re just starting out, but at lease you’ll get your face out there and you might even get your first agent from a class that will showcase you in front of agents). Speaking of which, one of the classes you take should focus on putting together a headshot and resume, but be careful you don’t get soaked for $4000 for one shot and a bunch of promises. One class which might help you get your first picture should cost a total, no more than, $500. Now you can see where the job comes in handy. A lot of $100 or so charges adds up quickly. 5.    Do not move to L.A. or N.Y.C. yet! DO NOT. Unless you know someone very important (not just the valet at the Mann’s Chinese Theatre) who can open a door for you, you would be much better in a smaller city like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City where you have a chance to learn, book local commercials and industrials and get your SAG card. Unless your dream involves community theatre you’ll have to move from nowhere USA to a larger market. If you don’t have any training, credits or a union card don’t go to the big one’s. I have friends who live in L.A. with SAG cards, series leads, national commercials and such who still have trouble getting work. And please don’t be one of those wannabe’s who thinks Scorcese will come to a screeching halt in traffic because he saw you walking down the street…Give it a good 5 years in a smaller market taking classes, auditioning, booking jobs, building your resume and getting your union card before you go to that market. 6    Don’t scoff at those who have been there. Listen to what people who have been there and are still there have to say. 7    It might sound like a cliche but it’s true, it’s not show ART, it’s show BUSINESS. When you become an actor you start your own business (hence the business and marketing classes). And like any business, if you don’t market the product (in this case yourself) it won’t sell. Do you think Colonel Sanders (God rest his secret recipe of herbs and spices soul) started out a success? It’s chicken for Pete’s sake! Marketing, my dear, marketing…you and I are no different that a million others standing around waving our spicy drumsticks in the air saying ‘look at me, look at me!’ Don’t waste your time doing things and spending money and time on things that don’t matter! (oh and by the way, the competition in the entertainment industry is nothing like the real world which pales in comparison) I could go on and on, but I hope I have given you a shot of reality. I’ll say the same thing my acting teacher said to me in 1984 when I said I wanted to be a professional actor. "If there is absolutely anything else in the world you can see yourself doing to make money, do that instead. If not, have fun because you’re in for more highs and lows, unemployment, rejection, humiliation, backstabbing, false friends, and uncertainty than any human being should be subjected to." Best of luck and if you’re still in the game and have questions send me a note.

I could practically have written most of this myself. Good post, David. — Carl We’re bigger than Jesus! – JWLennon

Response:

There is no law against calling an agency (late in the day when they are not busy) and asking questions like can they recommend a good headshot photographer or a class.

I used to work at a talent agency. Best to call early in the morning. Agent won’t be there but most likely wouldn’t talk to you anyway. But an assistant will give you some pointers.

Response:

Thanks for the complement DQ although I’m sure anyone could have said it better. I’m just trying to help out with wisdom I wish I had listened to when I was starting out. Thanks again… David www.geocities.com/dramadaveca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BRAVO DAVID!!! That’s telling it right between the eyes! Excellent post! I couldn’t have said it better myself! Drama Queen m, First off I would like to congratulate you for considering such a drastic departure from a non-performance background such as biology and following your passion. With that said, here is my advice to you…If you are going to pursue acting, you cannot *CANNOT* do it half-hearted. There is no room for excuses or ‘I’d like to do that but..’ If you are complacent about becoming a ‘professional actor’ (and not just a wannabe) you will find yourself working a minimum wage shift job, 15 years later, sitting around your one room apartment waiting for the phone to ring and complaining about how you haven’t had an audition in months and griping about how everyone else gets the breaks but you. Trust me on this one, I speak from experience. I left school after completing 8 YEARS of post secondary education, all of it specializing in acting, theatre and film and have taken more classes than I can count only to be instilled with this false sense of entitlement that many actors have (‘I’m good so I’ll get hired for sure’). As a result it took me another 8 years to wake up and realize I needed to work if I wanted to work. When 1-2% of all SAG actors are making more than $100,000/per annum and approximately 70-80% are making around $10,000 you need to realize (if you want to do this full time) that it’s going to take a lot of work to be one of the 30% who make between $30-70,000 (in other words, enough to support yourself and a family). So here’s the advice part (based on my experience if I could do it again): 1.    Don’t lock yourself into a full time degree program. NONE of them teach you about the real world. You will only become lazy (with regard to your career) and will waste months or years learning things like how to breathe from your diaphragm or how to enunciate. 2.    Continue asking questions of other ‘working’ actors as well as industry professionals such as agencies, yes I said agencies. There is no law against calling an agency (late in the day when they are not busy) and asking questions like can they recommend a good headshot photographer or a class. 3.    Speaking of classes. If you get yourself a flexible full time or part time job and save money (the same $40,000 from loans, family, my savings and part time jobs I spent to ‘train’ to be an actor could still be supporting me today) to start taking classes NOW like how to present yourself on camera, or how to audition, or how to study a script…Pick very specific classes and work your ass off in them. And if you really want to go college take business and marketing classes and minor in acting, or even better, take off campus acting classes. 4.    Get a headshot and start looking for an agent right off the bat (don’t expect anything to come of it if you’re just starting out, but at lease you’ll get your face out there and you might even get your first agent from a class that will showcase you in front of agents). Speaking of which, one of the classes you take should focus on putting together a headshot and resume, but be careful you don’t get soaked for $4000 for one shot and a bunch of promises. One class which might help you get your first picture should cost a total, no more than, $500. Now you can see where the job comes in handy. A lot of $100 or so charges adds up quickly. 5.    Do not move to L.A. or N.Y.C. yet! DO NOT. Unless you know someone very important (not just the valet at the Mann’s Chinese Theatre) who can open a door for you, you would be much better in a smaller city like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City where you have a chance to learn, book local commercials and industrials and get your SAG card. Unless your dream involves community theatre you’ll have to move from nowhere USA to a larger market. If you don’t have any training, credits or a union card don’t go to the big one’s. I have friends who live in L.A. with SAG cards, series leads, national commercials and such who still have trouble getting work. And please don’t be one of those wannabe’s who thinks Scorcese will come to a screeching halt in traffic because he saw you walking down the street…Give it a good 5 years in a smaller market taking classes, auditioning, booking jobs, building your resume and getting your union card before you go to that market. 6    Don’t scoff at those who have been there. Listen to what people who have been there and are still there have to say. 7    It might sound like a cliche but it’s true, it’s not show ART, it’s show BUSINESS. When you become an actor you start your own business (hence the business and marketing classes). And like any business, if you don’t market the product (in this case yourself) it won’t sell. Do you think Colonel Sanders (God rest his secret recipe of herbs and spices soul) started out a success? It’s chicken for Pete’s sake! Marketing, my dear, marketing…you and I are no different that a million others standing around waving our spicy drumsticks in the air saying ‘look at me, look at me!’ Don’t waste your time doing things and spending money and time on things that don’t matter! (oh and by the way, the competition in the entertainment industry is nothing like the real world which pales in comparison) I could go on and on, but I hope I have given you a shot of reality. I’ll say the same thing my acting teacher said to me in 1984 when I said I wanted to be a professional actor. "If there is absolutely anything else in the world you can see yourself doing to make money, do that instead. If not, have fun because you’re in for more highs and lows, unemployment, rejection, humiliation, backstabbing, false friends, and uncertainty than any human being should be subjected to." Best of luck and if you’re still in the game and have questions send me a note. David www.geocities.com/dramadaveca I am a 21 yr. old freshly out of college.  Unfortunately, the undergraduate program that I graduated from was Biology. I have almost no experience in acting, and don’t even know if I have the talent to make it in this business.  It has always been a dream of mine (I know everyone probably says this) to become an actor, and I fully realize that it is a very very very tough profession to make it in.  Then again, so are many other ones. But I guess the way that I am looking at it is that life is too short not to follow your dreams and so I am seriously considering doing just that. I know that there is no possible way that I could get my career started without attending acting school, and that there is almost no possible way to get into acting school without experience. With all of this said, I need some advice on how to get started.  Is there a way to get experience without moving to NYC or LA?  Is it wise to start with some local clubs?  What schools will help me get the training I need? Am I wise in following this dream or should I not even attempt it? Thank you in advance for your help

Response:

BRAVO DAVID!!! That’s telling it right between the eyes! Excellent post! I couldn’t have said it better myself! Drama Queen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – m, First off I would like to congratulate you for considering such a drastic departure from a non-performance background such as biology and following your passion. With that said, here is my advice to you…If you are going to pursue acting, you cannot *CANNOT* do it half-hearted. There is no room for excuses or ‘I’d like to do that but..’ If you are complacent about becoming a ‘professional actor’ (and not just a wannabe) you will find yourself working a minimum wage shift job, 15 years later, sitting around your one room apartment waiting for the phone to ring and complaining about how you haven’t had an audition in months and griping about how everyone else gets the breaks but you. Trust me on this one, I speak from experience. I left school after completing 8 YEARS of post secondary education, all of it specializing in acting, theatre and film and have taken more classes than I can count only to be instilled with this false sense of entitlement that many actors have (‘I’m good so I’ll get hired for sure’). As a result it took me another 8 years to wake up and realize I needed to work if I wanted to work. When 1-2% of all SAG actors are making more than $100,000/per annum and approximately 70-80% are making around $10,000 you need to realize (if you want to do this full time) that it’s going to take a lot of work to be one of the 30% who make between $30-70,000 (in other words, enough to support yourself and a family). So here’s the advice part (based on my experience if I could do it again): 1.    Don’t lock yourself into a full time degree program. NONE of them teach you about the real world. You will only become lazy (with regard to your career) and will waste months or years learning things like how to breathe from your diaphragm or how to enunciate. 2.    Continue asking questions of other ‘working’ actors as well as industry professionals such as agencies, yes I said agencies. There is no law against calling an agency (late in the day when they are not busy) and asking questions like can they recommend a good headshot photographer or a class. 3.    Speaking of classes. If you get yourself a flexible full time or part time job and save money (the same $40,000 from loans, family, my savings and part time jobs I spent to ‘train’ to be an actor could still be supporting me today) to start taking classes NOW like how to present yourself on camera, or how to audition, or how to study a script…Pick very specific classes and work your ass off in them. And if you really want to go college take business and marketing classes and minor in acting, or even better, take off campus acting classes. 4.    Get a headshot and start looking for an agent right off the bat (don’t expect anything to come of it if you’re just starting out, but at lease you’ll get your face out there and you might even get your first agent from a class that will showcase you in front of agents). Speaking of which, one of the classes you take should focus on putting together a headshot and resume, but be careful you don’t get soaked for $4000 for one shot and a bunch of promises. One class which might help you get your first picture should cost a total, no more than, $500. Now you can see where the job comes in handy. A lot of $100 or so charges adds up quickly. 5.    Do not move to L.A. or N.Y.C. yet! DO NOT. Unless you know someone very important (not just the valet at the Mann’s Chinese Theatre) who can open a door for you, you would be much better in a smaller city like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City where you have a chance to learn, book local commercials and industrials and get your SAG card. Unless your dream involves community theatre you’ll have to move from nowhere USA to a larger market. If you don’t have any training, credits or a union card don’t go to the big one’s. I have friends who live in L.A. with SAG cards, series leads, national commercials and such who still have trouble getting work. And please don’t be one of those wannabe’s who thinks Scorcese will come to a screeching halt in traffic because he saw you walking down the street…Give it a good 5 years in a smaller market taking classes, auditioning, booking jobs, building your resume and getting your union card before you go to that market. 6    Don’t scoff at those who have been there. Listen to what people who have been there and are still there have to say. 7    It might sound like a cliche but it’s true, it’s not show ART, it’s show BUSINESS. When you become an actor you start your own business (hence the business and marketing classes). And like any business, if you don’t market the product (in this case yourself) it won’t sell. Do you think Colonel Sanders (God rest his secret recipe of herbs and spices soul) started out a success? It’s chicken for Pete’s sake! Marketing, my dear, marketing…you and I are no different that a million others standing around waving our spicy drumsticks in the air saying ‘look at me, look at me!’ Don’t waste your time doing things and spending money and time on things that don’t matter! (oh and by the way, the competition in the entertainment industry is nothing like the real world which pales in comparison) I could go on and on, but I hope I have given you a shot of reality. I’ll say the same thing my acting teacher said to me in 1984 when I said I wanted to be a professional actor. "If there is absolutely anything else in the world you can see yourself doing to make money, do that instead. If not, have fun because you’re in for more highs and lows, unemployment, rejection, humiliation, backstabbing, false friends, and uncertainty than any human being should be subjected to." Best of luck and if you’re still in the game and have questions send me a note. David www.geocities.com/dramadaveca I am a 21 yr. old freshly out of college.  Unfortunately, the undergraduate program that I graduated from was Biology. I have almost no experience in acting, and don’t even know if I have the talent to make it in this business.  It has always been a dream of mine (I know everyone probably says this) to become an actor, and I fully realize that it is a very very very tough profession to make it in.  Then again, so are many other ones. But I guess the way that I am looking at it is that life is too short not to follow your dreams and so I am seriously considering doing just that. I know that there is no possible way that I could get my career started without attending acting school, and that there is almost no possible way to get into acting school without experience. With all of this said, I need some advice on how to get started.  Is there a way to get experience without moving to NYC or LA?  Is it wise to start with some local clubs?  What schools will help me get the training I need?  Am I wise in following this dream or should I not even attempt it? Thank you in advance for your help

Response:

m, First off I would like to congratulate you for considering such a drastic departure from a non-performance background such as biology and following your passion. With that said, here is my advice to you…If you are going to pursue acting, you cannot *CANNOT* do it half-hearted. There is no room for excuses or ‘I’d like to do that but..’ If you are complacent about becoming a ‘professional actor’ (and not just a wannabe) you will find yourself working a minimum wage shift job, 15 years later, sitting around your one room apartment waiting for the phone to ring and complaining about how you haven’t had an audition in months and griping about how everyone else gets the breaks but you. Trust me on this one, I speak from experience. I left school after completing 8 YEARS of post secondary education, all of it specializing in acting, theatre and film and have taken more classes than I can count only to be instilled with this false sense of entitlement that many actors have (‘I’m good so I’ll get hired for sure’). As a result it took me another 8 years to wake up and realize I needed to work if I wanted to work. When 1-2% of all SAG actors are making more than $100,000/per annum and approximately 70-80% are making around $10,000 you need to realize (if you want to do this full time) that it’s going to take a lot of work to be one of the 30% who make between $30-70,000 (in other words, enough to support yourself and a family). So here’s the advice part (based on my experience if I could do it again): 1.    Don’t lock yourself into a full time degree program. NONE of them teach you about the real world. You will only become lazy (with regard to your career) and will waste months or years learning things like how to breathe from your diaphragm or how to enunciate. 2.    Continue asking questions of other ‘working’ actors as well as industry professionals such as agencies, yes I said agencies. There is no law against calling an agency (late in the day when they are not busy) and asking questions like can they recommend a good headshot photographer or a class. 3.    Speaking of classes. If you get yourself a flexible full time or part time job and save money (the same $40,000 from loans, family, my savings and part time jobs I spent to ‘train’ to be an actor could still be supporting me today) to start taking classes NOW like how to present yourself on camera, or how to audition, or how to study a script…Pick very specific classes and work your ass off in them. And if you really want to go college take business and marketing classes and minor in acting, or even better, take off campus acting classes. 4.    Get a headshot and start looking for an agent right off the bat (don’t expect anything to come of it if you’re just starting out, but at lease you’ll get your face out there and you might even get your first agent from a class that will showcase you in front of agents). Speaking of which, one of the classes you take should focus on putting together a headshot and resume, but be careful you don’t get soaked for $4000 for one shot and a bunch of promises. One class which might help you get your first picture should cost a total, no more than, $500. Now you can see where the job comes in handy. A lot of $100 or so charges adds up quickly. 5.    Do not move to L.A. or N.Y.C. yet! DO NOT. Unless you know someone very important (not just the valet at the Mann’s Chinese Theatre) who can open a door for you, you would be much better in a smaller city like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City where you have a chance to learn, book local commercials and industrials and get your SAG card. Unless your dream involves community theatre you’ll have to move from nowhere USA to a larger market. If you don’t have any training, credits or a union card don’t go to the big one’s. I have friends who live in L.A. with SAG cards, series leads, national commercials and such who still have trouble getting work. And please don’t be one of those wannabe’s who thinks Scorcese will come to a screeching halt in traffic because he saw you walking down the street…Give it a good 5 years in a smaller market taking classes, auditioning, booking jobs, building your resume and getting your union card before you go to that market. 6    Don’t scoff at those who have been there. Listen to what people who have been there and are still there have to say. 7    It might sound like a cliche but it’s true, it’s not show ART, it’s show BUSINESS. When you become an actor you start your own business (hence the business and marketing classes). And like any business, if you don’t market the product (in this case yourself) it won’t sell. Do you think Colonel Sanders (God rest his secret recipe of herbs and spices soul) started out a success? It’s chicken for Pete’s sake! Marketing, my dear, marketing…you and I are no different that a million others standing around waving our spicy drumsticks in the air saying ‘look at me, look at me!’ Don’t waste your time doing things and spending money and time on things that don’t matter! (oh and by the way, the competition in the entertainment industry is nothing like the real world which pales in comparison) I could go on and on, but I hope I have given you a shot of reality. I’ll say the same thing my acting teacher said to me in 1984 when I said I wanted to be a professional actor. "If there is absolutely anything else in the world you can see yourself doing to make money, do that instead. If not, have fun because you’re in for more highs and lows, unemployment, rejection, humiliation, backstabbing, false friends, and uncertainty than any human being should be subjected to." Best of luck and if you’re still in the game and have questions send me a note. David www.geocities.com/dramadaveca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a 21 yr. old freshly out of college.  Unfortunately, the undergraduate program that I graduated from was Biology. I have almost no experience in acting, and don’t even know if I have the talent to make it in this business.  It has always been a dream of mine (I know everyone probably says this) to become an actor, and I fully realize that it is a very very very tough profession to make it in.  Then again, so are many other ones. But I guess the way that I am looking at it is that life is too short not to follow your dreams and so I am seriously considering doing just that. I know that there is no possible way that I could get my career started without attending acting school, and that there is almost no possible way to get into acting school without experience. With all of this said, I need some advice on how to get started.  Is there a way to get experience without moving to NYC or LA?  Is it wise to start with some local clubs?  What schools will help me get the training I need?  Am I wise in following this dream or should I not even attempt it? Thank you in advance for your help

Response:

I am a 21 yr. old freshly out of college.  Unfortunately, the undergraduate program that I graduated from was Biology. I have almost no experience in acting, and don’t even know if I have the talent to make it in this business.  It has always been a dream of mine (I know everyone probably says this) to become an actor, and I fully realize that it is a very very very tough profession to make it in.  Then again, so are many other ones. But I guess the way that I am looking at it is that life is too short not to follow your dreams and so I am seriously considering doing just that. I know that there is no possible way that I could get my career started without attending acting school, and that there is almost no possible way to get into acting school without experience. With all of this said, I need some advice on how to get started.  Is there a way to get experience without moving to NYC or LA?  Is it wise to start with some local clubs?  What schools will help me get the training I need?  Am I wise in following this dream or should I not even attempt it? Thank you in advance for your help

Response:

I am a 21 yr. old freshly out of college.  Unfortunately, the undergraduate program that I graduated from was Biology.

How unfortunate you have an education. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have almost no experience in acting, and don’t even know if I have the talent to make it in this business.  It has always been a dream of mine (I know everyone probably says this) to become an actor, and I fully realize that it is a very very very tough profession to make it in.  Then again, so are many other ones. But I guess the way that I am looking at it is that life is too short not to follow your dreams and so I am seriously considering doing just that. I know that there is no possible way that I could get my career started without attending acting school, and that there is almost no possible way to get into acting school without experience. With all of this said, I need some advice on how to get started.  Is there a way to get experience without moving to NYC or LA?  Is it wise to start with some local clubs?  What schools will help me get the training I need?  Am I wise in following this dream or should I not even attempt it?

No you’re not wise. Wisdom comes from years of experience. Should you not attempt to follow your dream? Your going to have hundreds of people telling you NO. This is not an answer you can get from a newsgroup. You need to know yourself. I came down here (LA) because I wanted to direct. I’ve done a few little things written a few things. Been pretty busy until June. Work became slow. I started to think about getting a "real" job. But there’s nothing else I could do. I have thrown myself 100% into pursuing my directing career. I have no back up plan. If you have any doubts about an acting career then don’t bother. If you know nothing else they go for it. Try local theater first. If the craft of acting consumes you to no end. You’ll have your answer. Break Legs.

Response:

What about the film and industrial film work in Chicago?  (Union, that is)? There is something to be said about a smaller market where at least one can make a living! Jessie

It’s a smaller, but still commercially viable market. I am here, and have been working in the industry for three years. There’s a lot of commercials (national and local) cast here. And tons of print ads. As

well

Response:

What about the film and industrial film work in Chicago?  (Union, that is)? There is something to be said about a smaller market where at least one can make a living!

there is a lot of industrial work. I think we’re number one in that regard. There are also a lot of commercials cast here. (national) Union film shoots here, but the larger roles are typically cast in LA. angie "into the garbage chute flyboy" if you don’t know who said that, you’re living in a van down by the river.

Response:

Wilmington, NC is pretty good in starting out.  TV shows are here (new shows like, This Way Comes, and the ever popular Dawson’s Creek)  Movies out the wazoo, and lots of commercials and industrials.  The biggie? Right to work state. And if you want your SAG card, only 500 bucks to join. It’s up to 1200 bucks in LA and NY, isn’t it? Mike

Response:

if this is your first foray into acting, maybe you should move to Chicago first. It’s a smaller, but still commercially viable market. I am here, and have been working in the industry for three years. There’s a lot of commercials (national and local) cast here. And tons of print ads. As well as the occasionally soap that comes through town. It’s also much cheaper to live here. And anyone in the acting field should eventually move to LA. If you get with Second City or Steppenwolf, or Goodman, they are just as well respected as any production on Broadway. (not to mention the Chicago Theater, and The Auditorium) Since you’re thinking of making a big move anyway, consider it here. I was able to get my SAG card while working here. And the public transportation system is excellent, so you wouldn’t need a car. I don’t know about renting to people without a job.. but perhaps you could live near one of the many universities in the city, and they might be more willing to take you on. Good luck, and keep me posted. angie into the garbage chute flyboy

Response:

Hi there!  I am a newbie too, however, i must suggest moving to Orlando.  It has a very strong commercial market and growing in tv and film production.  There are alot of stage productions here and good acting classes.  And as always the theme parks can give some performing experience.  Cruise lines as well.  Orlando is a easier move than to NY.  Don’t get me started about the weather. Transportation stinks here though…public trans is awful and the roads are congested a bit.  But this doesn’t have to be a permanent move (I intend to stay only a few years)  but a good start off to building an acting career.  Good Luck with the great Move! Lee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -if this is your first foray into acting, maybe you should move to Chicago first. It’s a smaller, but still commercially viable market. I am here, and have been working in the industry for three years. There’s a lot of commercials (national and local) cast here. And tons of print ads. As well as the occasionally soap that comes through town. It’s also much cheaper to live here. And anyone in the acting field should eventually move to LA. If you get with Second City or Steppenwolf, or Goodman, they are just as well respected as any production on Broadway. (not to mention the Chicago Theater, and The Auditorium) Since you’re thinking of making a big move anyway, consider it here. I was able to get my SAG card while working here. And the public transportation system is excellent, so you wouldn’t need a car. I don’t know about renting to people without a job.. but perhaps you could live near one of the many universities in the city, and they might be more willing to take you on. Good luck, and keep me posted. angie into the garbage chute flyboy

Response:

All in all, be confident, and don’t worry about crime. New York is safer than its been in 30 years.

Crime by criminals is down, but violence by police is way way up.   Stay clear of the cops, and you’ll be safe Christopher James Quinn Brooklyn, Earth. 1985 Honda VF1000R= Fat, Faired and Fast. "Not a drug dealer, but I play one on TV" – The Sopranos 2/14/99

Response:

Thanks Orb71, your cheque’s in the mail.                                                        the Roodster – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thats a tough one "Rachel". Moving to a new city is never easy. Try and make some friends in that area beforehand. The internet is good for that (but make sure you know the person a long time first! There’s some reeeal wacky characters floating around in cyber space!). Its always easier relocating to a place where you have connections, even people who are just acquaintances might be of help. My advice on an apartment would be to rent one outside of Manhattan, in one of the outer boroughs. Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island are MUCH cheaper than Manhattan. And transportation is easy and pretty quick, even if you don’t have a car. New Jersey is always an option too. Once you get here, get a subscription to "Backstage" magazine. Its expensive, but worth it. And maybe inject yourself into the local acting community (you’ll find em eventually). All in all, be confident, and don’t worry about crime. New York is safer than its been in 30 years. Good luck!

Response:

Thats a tough one "Rachel". Moving to a new city is never easy. Try and make some friends in that area beforehand. The internet is good for that (but make sure you know the person a long time first! There’s some reeeal wacky characters floating around in cyber space!). Its always easier relocating to a place where you have connections, even people who are just acquaintances might be of help. My advice on an apartment would be to rent one outside of Manhattan, in one of the outer boroughs. Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island are MUCH cheaper than Manhattan. And transportation is easy and pretty quick, even if you don’t have a car. New Jersey is always an option too. Once you get here, get a subscription to "Backstage" magazine. Its expensive, but worth it. And maybe inject yourself into the local acting community (you’ll find em eventually). All in all, be confident, and don’t worry about crime. New York is safer than its been in 30 years. Good luck!

Response:

        I would like to know how I should get started with my acting career by moving to New York City. I don’t have any friends/family in that area so I don’t know how to get started there. I know that rent is wicked expensive in NYC and that you must prove that you have employment before you’re allowed to rent. So, if I don’t have a job lined up how am I suppose to find a place to live/practice my craft/go to auditions/find a job that will pay the bills?         I would really appreciate any information from people who’ve Been There much appreciate it. Thanks! By the Way: If you’re reading this Ed Hooks — I’ve just finished reading The Audition Book and I loved it. It was so insightful and helpful at explaining the buisness aspect of acting. I was wondering: could you post some recommendations on other books that show us the in’s and out’s of the buisness side of acting? Thanks!

Response:

Hi, I’m interested in taking some acting classes in Chicago. I’m not sure if the University approach is feasible at this time, so I was wondering if anyone knew of some good acting schools in Chicago. Any, and all help would be appreciated! -john

Response:

Second City Jeremy  http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                              Home page of New School Acting

Response:

 Second City  When the man is right,  the man is right.

      Also,  check out ImprovOlympics and the Annoyance…both have very good improv and acting classes,  but don’t have the ‘Rep’ 2C has….so the classes tend to be smaller and cheaper.   The alumni base isn’t as good,  but I highly recommend both. -Trip

Response:

Question:

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Response:

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Response: