Question:

success varies from person to person, it is not for me but many on this group are doing better than they did on flex, best of luck, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi– my wife just joined WW (again) and will be following the CORE program. She loves the idea of not journaling everything, and accounting for every mouthful.    How successful have people been with this program, as opposed to the "old" style program? Thanks. Got wood? Check out my exotic hardwood pennywhistles at fair prices…http://www.Busmanwhistles.com

Response:

This brings me to thinking that losing on flex is better for me but maybe when I get to goal core might work better, Lee, who maintained fine while trying core

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it works better for me than Flex did. Over the summer a lot of junk food crept into my menus. Empty points because they were available. Core helped eliminate this junk plus got me losing weight again. I was recently at my mother’s for 10 days. It was hard to follow core 100%. I did the best that I could and just made sure that I only ate until satisfied (not full). I managed to come home weighing only 1 extra pound. That pound is now off after 2 days of strict core eating. My scale is back to where it was the morning I left. It works for me. I think you should re-read your above paragraph – particularly, the next time you get involved in worrying about or dealing with whether or not something is strictly core and how to count it if there is a question.  Clearly, coming CLOSE to CORE worked quite well those 10 days.  So, once again, we all learn that perfection is not always "perfectly" necessary. You did a great job.  A pound fluctuation is normal and is Maintenance.  Congrats If your wife can follow the plan then it is worth the effort. I have seen some outstanding losses on this plan. It does take a lot of extra planning and preparation (where I fall down) but those that do really lose nicely on this plan. Hi– my wife just joined WW (again) and will be following the CORE program. She loves the idea of not journaling everything, and accounting for every mouthful.    How successful have people been with this program, as opposed to the "old" style program? Thanks. Got wood? Check out my exotic hardwood pennywhistles at fair prices…http://www.Busmanwhistles.com

Response:

Hi– my wife just joined WW (again) and will be following the CORE program. She loves the idea of not journaling everything, and accounting for every mouthful.    How successful have people been with this program, as opposed to the "old" style program? Thanks. Got wood? Check out my exotic hardwood pennywhistles at fair prices…http://www.Busmanwhistles.com

Response:

I think it works better for me than Flex did. Over the summer a lot of junk food crept into my menus. Empty points because they were available. Core helped eliminate this junk plus got me losing weight again. I was recently at my mother’s for 10 days. It was hard to follow core 100%. I did the best that I could and just made sure that I only ate until satisfied (not full). I managed to come home weighing only 1 extra pound. That pound is now off after 2 days of strict core eating. My scale is back to where it was the morning I left. It works for me. If your wife can follow the plan then it is worth the effort. I have seen some outstanding losses on this plan. It does take a lot of extra planning and preparation (where I fall down) but those that do really lose nicely on this plan.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi– my wife just joined WW (again) and will be following the CORE program. She loves the idea of not journaling everything, and accounting for every mouthful.    How successful have people been with this program, as opposed to the "old" style program? Thanks. Got wood? Check out my exotic hardwood pennywhistles at fair prices…http://www.Busmanwhistles.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it works better for me than Flex did. Over the summer a lot of junk food crept into my menus. Empty points because they were available. Core helped eliminate this junk plus got me losing weight again. I was recently at my mother’s for 10 days. It was hard to follow core 100%. I did the best that I could and just made sure that I only ate until satisfied (not full). I managed to come home weighing only 1 extra pound. That pound is now off after 2 days of strict core eating. My scale is back to where it was the morning I left. It works for me. I think you should re-read your above paragraph – particularly, the next time you get involved in worrying about or dealing with whether or not something is strictly core and how to count it if there is a question.  Clearly, coming CLOSE to CORE worked quite well those 10 days.  So, once again, we all learn that perfection is not always "perfectly" necessary. You did a great job.  A pound fluctuation is normal and is Maintenance.  Congrats

Thanks Fred. I think that is the other reason that I like Core. It is easier to stay OP even when I over eat. As long as I stick with the basic core list of foods I am okay. I do fine until someone puts chips in front of me which my daughter did for NYE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If your wife can follow the plan then it is worth the effort. I have seen some outstanding losses on this plan. It does take a lot of extra planning and preparation (where I fall down) but those that do really lose nicely on this plan. Hi– my wife just joined WW (again) and will be following the CORE program. She loves the idea of not journaling everything, and accounting for every mouthful.    How successful have people been with this program, as opposed to the "old" style program? Thanks. Got wood? Check out my exotic hardwood pennywhistles at fair prices…http://www.Busmanwhistles.com

Response:

Question:

they will be going on holidays starting august 22 and won’t be back to work sun sun  and more sun here i come……. angie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Angie: Congrats on losing 5 lbs. Good for you!!! My sympathies for your b/f grandmother and your great aunt. I hope the next little while is less busy. Connie — Cheers, Connie Walsh 241.5/228/220(SWWC)/155 hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie message Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congrats on your 2 mini-goals!  GREAT going!!!  I’ve learned to never question a whoosh.  ;) — ~Kristin O 272/239/172

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Great loss, Laura, congrats. Linda 252/179/140 SWWC–182.2/179/165

Response:

Hi Angie: Congrats on losing 5 lbs. Good for you!!! My sympathies for your b/f grandmother and your great aunt. I hope the next little while is less busy. Connie — Cheers, Connie Walsh 241.5/228/220(SWWC)/155 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Good job! Melissa in NJ — and the "Boos Hounds" (Bear, Bits, and Lexus) and Maxi (aka Witch Kitty with a "B"), Kenobi (aka "Kitty Wan Kenobi"), and Salem (aka "Salem the Yak") Quilt Something for Yourself!    Adopt a Racing Greyhound! — —

Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congratulations on meeting your two mini goals.  Good luck meeting the next as well. — Brenda 209/179/150 SWWC goal 165

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Holy smokes, your life is a a busy one.  Sorry about your b/f’s grandma and your great aunt.  Glad you got out of your old place and into a new one, now perhaps you can concentrate on staying OP and getting your life back to normal.  A loss of 5 pounds during a stressful time is amazing.  While DH was in the hospital for 6 1/2 weeks I basically lost nothing, but didn’t really gain either.  Good luck losing more and welcome back to the group. — Brenda 209/179/150 SWWC goal 165

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congrats on loosing the 2 1/2 lbs, Laura. I’ve learned there’s no accounting for how our metabolisms work–just go with the flow and be grateful for losses Linda 252/179.6/136 SWWC–182.2/179.6/165

Response:

Congrats on the loss in spite of the residential hassles. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey everyone. havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.       i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.   the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.   well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.    i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.   to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.   in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.    juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.   i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Great work on making those goals overlap.  Best on meeting the next goal and goals – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congratulations on thata loss, Laura. I’ve said a few time to people who have plateaud that they might need to shake up their menu – and you sure did that ;-D It really worked for you! Elaine K 331.4/184.6/179 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Wow Laura, a whoosh indeed! I ‘m following a similar pattern : maintain for 3/4 weeks, and then, the week when I overeat or eat junk, whammo, a whoosh! I guess we keep our bodies guessing,huh. Good job on the minigoals as well! — Nathalie from Belgium 134.1/106.3/minigoal 104.1 Goal 68 Kg 295.6/234.4/minigoal 229.5/Goal 150 pounds SWWC 238/234.4/226

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Question:

"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:PXF69.3895$xL5.15913@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It depends on the woman, I guess. I wouldn’t like your arrangement but > that’s ok we’re both happy with the arrangements we do have with our > husbands. > There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What > would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you > have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to > your marital funds if you need to get to them? > Also, does you husband keep good records so you’d be able to easily find out > what bills needed to be paid, assuming you have access to the funds to pay > them? > Even if one partner consistently makes all the decisions and handles the > day-to-day financial dealings it’s important for both partners to be able to > perform these roles in the event of an emergency. Just something to think > about, Lola. > Tai > (extremely well organised in this area)

This is exactly what happened to my mother.  My father had only his name on all the bills and when he died, she was totally clueless about the finances. It took a long time to figure out the bills and then she had to call all the creditors to get things switched to her name.  You wouldn’t believe how hard that was to do.  She even had to pay a deposit for electricity since she hadn’t been on the bill and they didn’t trust her credit.

Response:

Tai wrote: > There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What > would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you > have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to > your marital funds if you need to get to them?

 This is definintely a concern in our relationship.  I do all the finances since I’m good at it.  DH wouldn’t be.  But I keep very detailed records, both of our names are on everything, and I go over things with DH weekly or every other week so that he knows what’s going on and could take care of things if necessary. Cari — .sigfree

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kali wrote: > "kuranes" <kura…@starpower.net> wrote in message > news:3D5AEE6E.63DD1327@starpower.net… > > scullytac wrote: > > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just > begun > > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > > This is the biggest load of crap I’ve ever read.  It’s basically > non-consensual > > Domination/submission in a nutshell.  (And didn’t the author’s husband > leave > > her.)  It starts with the flawed assumption that every man wants a woman > who > > submits and gets worse from there. > > Cari > It’s submission only in the sense of "topping from the bottom."  The woman > is supposed to manipulate her husband into doing things.  The example of > bills is that no matter what he says, she’s supposed to refuse to do them > and insist that he do them instead.  That doesn’t sound submissive or > surrendered to me at all.

I was considering the woman to be the Dominant in this case. Non-consensually. Cari — .sigfree

Response:

Stephen Gibson <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote: > (Our clutter problem prevents the three of us > from socializing together at home. > There is no room with the space for three to sit. > Our family meetings tend to happen in the car.)

I snipped the rest of your very interesting post, Gale, because this part grabbed me.  Do you think the clutter is caused by a subconscious wish to avoid each other? Or is the avoiding caused be the clutter?  If you decluttered would you spend more time together?  Or is it just a symptom.  I know you probably don’t know the answers to these questions!

Response:

scullytac <scully…@comcast.net> wrote: > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting.

I haven’t read it, but I find some of the concepts interesting.  I don’t subscribe to the gender role aspect, but the attitude of evincing respect, not being controlling, not nagging, etc. seems very positive to me – I just think it ought to be mutual. BTW, the thought of my H doing the finances would be funny if it weren’t so scary.  *NOT* his forte.

Response:

I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" We both feel bad after these comments. "Emma Anne" <m…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1fgyeom.g2r92e1ja3cl5N%mbjq@earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> scullytac <scully…@comcast.net> wrote: > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > I haven’t read it, but I find some of the concepts interesting.  I don’t > subscribe to the gender role aspect, but the attitude of evincing > respect, not being controlling, not nagging, etc. seems very positive to > me – I just think it ought to be mutual. > BTW, the thought of my H doing the finances would be funny if it weren’t > so scary.  *NOT* his forte.

Response:

Gale wrote: > scullytac wrote: > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… > Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, …

Oops.  I meant Laura _Doyle_.   (Nothing personal, Mr. Nicholson. — Gale

Response:

Gale <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:3D5AFE33.C1CC63B2@earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> scullytac wrote: > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… > Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, seems to be based on a > paradox, that a wife can get what she wants from her husband by > choosing to not control him.  These are fighting words to many > feminists.  But there are similar paradoxes in Harville Hendrix’s > relatively gender-neutral model of marital dynamics, where I am > told (and believe) that focusing on meeting my partner’s emotional > needs first is the path to getting a reciprocal focus from her. > I therefore do not find Boyle’s book to be fundamentally wrong. > Here is a partial summary, in the author’s words: >   The basic principles of a surrendered wife are that she: >   . Relinquishes inappropriate control of her husband >   . Respects her husband’s thinking >   . Receives his gifts graciously and expresses gratitude for him >   . Expresses what she wants without trying to control him >   . Relies on him to handle household finances >   . Focuses on her own self-care and fulfillment >   A surrendered wife is: >   . Vulnerable where she used to be a nag >   . Trusting where she used to be controlling >   . Respectful where she used to be demeaning >   . Grateful where she used to be dissatisfied >   . Has faith where she once had doubt. > (See URL "http://www.surrenderedwife.com/chapterone.html".)

That’s my understanding of the concept, too, Gale.  Also, if *both* partners behave towards each other in the ’surrendered’ way then they’ll probably do just fine.  The finances bit is weird, though!  Both should be involved in budgeting and other financial decisions and whoever has the best accounting skillsand/or greatest amount of time and interet should pay the bills. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife used to study and apply similar techniques.  (She did not > read Laura Boyle’s book, but a similar one called "Quest For > Queenship" written by an LDS woman.)  Since then we have been > through a lot of trouble, with mutual abusiveness, but IMO the > two are not directly connected. > Surrendering ones control is not IMO an acceptable substitute for > self respect, but neither is desperately grasping for control. > The concepts in Boyle’s book are somewhat similar to what I > encountered in Christian mens groups like Promise Keepers. > (I listened but was not a joiner.)  They are based on assumptions > of differences in emotional temperments between men and women > in general.  One key assumption is that a man is more likely to > respond to feeling out of control by acting out destructively > than a woman is.

Yes, I don’t see that as being a given, either. There may be significant differences in the types of destructive behaviour chosen but I don’t see men as any more or less inclined to destructive behaviour as are women. > I don’t buy into God-given gender roles, but feel that control > can become a trap for men or women.  Currently my family is > choking on angry & controlling behavior, where the three of us > take turns feeling abused and thus acting abusive.  I see a > resonance with the goal of abandoning compulsive control. > I am working toward the same goals, but using different > techniques.

You’ve been trying to get out of the cycle for a while now, Gale. Do you feel like you’ve made some progress and would you mind sharing some of the techniques you’ve tried that do seem to work? > Above all, an approach such as this can not be effective if > it is forced on a wife by her husband.

Tai

Response:

"scullytac" <scully…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:PUB69.3313$2p2.162684@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com… > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting.

I have never read the book per se, however, I have a strong understanding of what it is about thanks to discussions much like this one. Frankly, it is how I have always lived and it works wonderfully for my DH and me.  There are times when you have to consiously make the choice to be a surrendered wife, like when you strongly DISAGREE with your DH. But in the long run it has always worked out better for me than an ugly confrontation. I don’t think the tenants of the philosophy are to manipulate your husband by a certain type of behavior.  I think what they are saying is that "if" you behave in a certain way to your husband he will WANT to do the things for you when you feel that they are important enough to ask for. Let me give you an example.  My husband makes good money.   Unfortunately, he has an ex-wife who believes that you can never pay TOO MUCH child support.  There were some legal things that went on and DH was asked to pay an additional $2,000 over and above his regular child support payment.  He felt that it was the right thing to do so he paid it.  I never said a word. Just because he makes good money doesn’t mean there aren’t other things that we could have used that money for.  I could have pitched a fit, bitched and moaned, but instead I told hime "That’s ok honey, I know that you do what you think is best for the family.  You don’t have to explain your actions to me.  I trust you."  Now, about three weeks later my computer died and I asked DH if we could buy another.  He had no problem saying "of course". I’m sure that if I’d had a pissy fit about how much money he had given to his ex-wife, he would not have been so generous when it came time to buy the new computer for me. For me and DH it is the only way to live and love and to get along.  The world is a hard enough place without having stress and disagreements in the home.  As for the finances.  Its a good thing DH wants and likes to do them. I can’t imagine what a disaster they would be if I even tried.  I never carry money or a check book with me.  He takes care of everything.  On payday, I hand my check over to him and I never see it again.  The bills get paid and there is food in the refrigerator.  What else could a woman ask for? the girl of many {surrendered) names

Response:

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:35:02 GMT, "scullytac" <scully…@comcast.net> wrote: >I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a >grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high >in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" >We both feel bad after these comments.

These types of comments are just plain rude regardless of who you are saying them to. My mother says rude things like this and I don’t spend a lot of time around her where I have to listen to it. Loev, Ms pants

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:4uE69.3771$xL5.14982@news-server.bigpond.net.au>… > Gale <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:3D5AFE33.C1CC63B2@earthlink.net… > > scullytac wrote: > > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just >  begun > > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > > This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… > > Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, seems to be based on a > > paradox, that a wife can get what she wants from her husband by > > choosing to not control him.  These are fighting words to many > > feminists.  But there are similar paradoxes in Harville Hendrix’s > > relatively gender-neutral model of marital dynamics, where I am > > told (and believe) that focusing on meeting my partner’s emotional > > needs first is the path to getting a reciprocal focus from her. > > I therefore do not find Boyle’s book to be fundamentally wrong. > > Here is a partial summary, in the author’s words: > >   The basic principles of a surrendered wife are that she: > >   . Relinquishes inappropriate control of her husband > >   . Respects her husband’s thinking > >   . Receives his gifts graciously and expresses gratitude for him > >   . Expresses what she wants without trying to control him > >   . Relies on him to handle household finances > >   . Focuses on her own self-care and fulfillment > >   A surrendered wife is: > >   . Vulnerable where she used to be a nag > >   . Trusting where she used to be controlling > >   . Respectful where she used to be demeaning > >   . Grateful where she used to be dissatisfied > >   . Has faith where she once had doubt. > > (See URL "http://www.surrenderedwife.com/chapterone.html".) > That’s my understanding of the concept, too, Gale.  Also, if *both* partners > behave towards each other in the ’surrendered’ way then they’ll probably do > just fine.  The finances bit is weird, though!  Both should be involved in > budgeting and other financial decisions and whoever has the best accounting > skillsand/or greatest amount of time and interet should pay the bills. > > My wife used to study and apply similar techniques.  (She did not > > read Laura Boyle’s book, but a similar one called "Quest For > > Queenship" written by an LDS woman.)  Since then we have been > > through a lot of trouble, with mutual abusiveness, but IMO the > > two are not directly connected. > > Surrendering ones control is not IMO an acceptable substitute for > > self respect, but neither is desperately grasping for control. > > The concepts in Boyle’s book are somewhat similar to what I > > encountered in Christian mens groups like Promise Keepers. > > (I listened but was not a joiner.)  They are based on assumptions > > of differences in emotional temperments between men and women > > in general.  One key assumption is that a man is more likely to > > respond to feeling out of control by acting out destructively > > than a woman is. > Yes, I don’t see that as being a given, either. There may be significant > differences in the types of destructive behaviour chosen but I don’t see men > as any more or less inclined to destructive behaviour as are women. > > I don’t buy into God-given gender roles, but feel that control > > can become a trap for men or women.  Currently my family is > > choking on angry & controlling behavior, where the three of us > > take turns feeling abused and thus acting abusive.  I see a > > resonance with the goal of abandoning compulsive control. > > I am working toward the same goals, but using different > > techniques. > You’ve been trying to get out of the cycle for a while now, Gale. Do you > feel like you’ve made some progress and would you mind sharing some of the > techniques you’ve tried that do seem to work? > > Above all, an approach such as this can not be effective if > > it is forced on a wife by her husband. > Tai

It’s hard to tell how things are going… The main thing I am doing is to not verbalize the spells of anger that I still feel.  I am learning to control them better. This is a healthy change, but my wife still is hurt deeply from the past couple of years. (I have not been very focused on the actions Hendrix recommends in "Getting the Love You Want", but his model gives me hope and a roadmap to recovery as a couple. There are times when my wife seems to feel close again. It’s hard to tell what she is doing for herself from what she is doing for me, though. I am better able to connect with my wife’s intellect, which always has impressed me. But my wife still is stuck feeling worthless deep down. This is hard to heal, even harder without her active involvement. My wife seems to be hurting herself by reliving her past hurts. She still does not want to get help. I don’t try to make ultimatums on this, though. They only make things worse. My daughter, 15, seems to be more willing to learn anger management than my wife. Unfortunately, the anger at home hurts her still. She still is pretty self-centered (largely age appropriate), but she is learning a little to be assertive when my wife (or me) throws a tantrum. She feels too responsible for our marriage’s survival. We don’t work together very well as parents because I am too focused on deflecting anger. Letting my daughter’s coments bounce off me tends to enrage my wife.  Sometimes I see my wife lose her temper at my daughter (less often than at me), and my wife expects me to "back her up". This leads me to hard choices between condoning verbal abuse or compromising parental discipline. Over the summer I have tried to get closer to my wife, and we have spent less time with our daughter. (She often overnights with a family of close friends, playmates since infancy.) She tends to distance herself from us and then blame us for her decisions to be distant. (Our clutter problem prevents the three of us from socializing together at home. There is no room with the space for three to sit. Our family meetings tend to happen in the car.) We may go back to our daughter’s therapist soon, if my wife will attend the sessions. I am definitely getting my anger under control at work. I am healing enough to be more focused on work. This is very healthy, especially with a handful of layoffs expected in our office. In short, no miracles have happened, but I have a lot more hope and more of myself back. This is limited good news.  Thanks for asking. — Gale

Response:

kuranes <kura…@starpower.net> wrote in message

news:3D5BBAD9.8884BB08@starpower.net… >  This is definintely a concern in our relationship.  I do all the finances > since I’m good at it.  DH wouldn’t be.  But I keep very detailed records, both > of our names are on everything, and I go over things with DH weekly or every > other week so that he knows what’s going on and could take care of things if > necessary.

This is what I do as well, though my husband could probably do it as well as me…well…*nearly* as well as me.  I sometimes feel like the "Queen of Lists"! Everything is spreadsheeted to death and I’m probably the only person who actually uses MSMoney. Tai

Response:

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:29:45 -0400, kuranes <kura…@starpower.net> wrote: >> There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What >> would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you >> have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to >> your marital funds if you need to get to them?

Well, if I suddenly died DH would have no idea what to do. He hasn’t a clue about bills, finances, accounts,  etc.  Seriously, he doesn’t even know how much the mortgage is.  I’ve asked him time and again to sit with me and allow me to explain things to him, but he claims he doesn’t care, isn’t interested, etc.  He says he works for the money, that’s his job. My job is to take care of the money.  He’s perfectly happy being oblivious about bills and such. beck — wondering if DH read the surrendered husbands book  

Response:

<uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:LBJ69.3220$LO1.279003@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > I am definitely getting my anger under control at work. > I am healing enough to be more focused on work. > This is very healthy, especially with a handful of layoffs > expected in our office.

Best wishes with that. I think I know the industry you’re in and it’s not a good time for the employers or the employees. > In short, no miracles have happened, > but I have a lot more hope and more of myself back. > This is limited good news.  Thanks for asking.

You’re welcome. I’m glad you are optimistic and wish you well. You certainly seem to have the necessary patience even if you do have anger problems. (BTW, the anger isn’t immediately obvious from your posting style but your control is.)  Trust can take a very long time to rebuild and it seems that your wife is still quite a distance from being able to take the most positive impression of your words and actions wrt to her. It’s very unfortunate she isn’t ready to get help and also that your daughter has such a large role in her parents’ problems. I had the same thought as Emma Anne, regarding your ‘clutter’ if it is as overwhelming as you suggest. If you aren’t all naturally comfortable with clutter then it could be the result of not having the energy to do more than the bare minimum of  house work while you cope with the stress of your relationship. As part of your healing as a family could you turn making your home into a comfortable space for you all a symbolic (and very practical) act? Just a simple thing but something you could all do to get a little bit of control back in one corner of your lives. Tai

Response:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:35:33 -0700, "Kali" <ka…@hotpop.com_REMOVE> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:PXF69.3895$xL5.15913@news-server.bigpond.net.au… >> It depends on the woman, I guess. I wouldn’t like your arrangement but >> that’s ok we’re both happy with the arrangements we do have with our >> husbands. >> There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What >> would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you >> have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to >> your marital funds if you need to get to them? >> Also, does you husband keep good records so you’d be able to easily find >out >> what bills needed to be paid, assuming you have access to the funds to pay >> them? >> Even if one partner consistently makes all the decisions and handles the >> day-to-day financial dealings it’s important for both partners to be able >to >> perform these roles in the event of an emergency. Just something to think >> about, Lola. >> Tai >> (extremely well organised in this area) >This is exactly what happened to my mother.  My father had only his name on >all the bills and when he died, she was totally clueless about the finances. >It took a long time to figure out the bills and then she had to call all the >creditors to get things switched to her name.  You wouldn’t believe how hard >that was to do.  She even had to pay a deposit for electricity since she >hadn’t been on the bill and they didn’t trust her credit.

This is something that bothers me in my household arrangement.  My wife has very little involvement with our general finances.  To leave things to her is either to leave them undone altogether, or to spend so much time persuading and coaching the effort that I would rather have done it myself in the first place. I hope things would be reasonably smooth if I died, but I ought to write up some documents to make it more straightforward.  To try and keep all the finances to myself for some sort of power trip is ludicrous – only someone with severe insecurity would need that sort of buzz. Does anyone have suggestions for encouraging a transfer of responsibility ?  I’d rather be shot of all the bill-paying stuff.  So many things are shared that _someone_ has to do it, or our overall life will suffer. Thanks, ~Ian.

Response:

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:12:20 -0400, kuranes <kura…@starpower.net> wrote: >scullytac wrote: >> I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a >> grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high >> in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" >> We both feel bad after these comments. >Isn’t this common sense stuff though?  As an adult, do you want people >constantly correcting you?  Chances are, no.  So why would you do it to >someone else? >Cari

Well obviously because I know better than them !   ~I

Response:

Emma Anne wrote: > Gale <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote: > > (Our clutter problem prevents the three of us > > from socializing together at home. > > There is no room with the space for three to sit. > > Our family meetings tend to happen in the car.) > I snipped the rest of your very interesting post, Gale, because this > part grabbed me.  Do you think the clutter is caused by a subconscious > wish to avoid each other? Or is the avoiding caused be the clutter?  If > you decluttered would you spend more time together?  Or is it just a > symptom.  I know you probably don’t know the answers to these questions!

Our clutter overload was more or less caused by us both being depressed. I always have been a packrat, especially for books etc.  When I remember something, I want to be able to look at it.  I also bring home a lot of printed articles for my stay-at-home wife to read.  This is motivated by a desire to share interesting ideas with my wife, whose broad and unusual intellect is something I particularly admire.  (For long, she actively avoided computers and would not go online.  Recently this has changed.) We have begun to declutter the house a little, but there is a lot to get cleared — maybe 10 times what we’ve done.   As far as I am aware, there is not a desire for distance that causes our clutter.  More the opposite — I don’t start doing something practical at home because I am afraid that being busy will create emotional distance. — Gale

Response:

scullytac wrote: > I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a > grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high > in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" > We both feel bad after these comments.

Isn’t this common sense stuff though?  As an adult, do you want people constantly correcting you?  Chances are, no.  So why would you do it to someone else? Cari — .sigfree

Response:

"scullytac" <scully…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:qvS69.18699$SS.767551@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com… > I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a > grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high > in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" > We both feel bad after these comments.

That’s basically just common courtesy.

Response:

Her Name Was Lola <l…@spamdump.com> wrote in message news:ajf7c3017ci@enews1.newsguy.com… > For me and DH it is the only way to live and love and to get along.  The > world is a hard enough place without having stress and disagreements in the > home.  As for the finances.  Its a good thing DH wants and likes to do them. > I can’t imagine what a disaster they would be if I even tried.  I never > carry money or a check book with me.  He takes care of everything.  On > payday, I hand my check over to him and I never see it again.  The bills get > paid and there is food in the refrigerator.  What else could a woman ask > for?

It depends on the woman, I guess. I wouldn’t like your arrangement but that’s ok we’re both happy with the arrangements we do have with our husbands. There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to your marital funds if you need to get to them? Also, does you husband keep good records so you’d be able to easily find out what bills needed to be paid, assuming you have access to the funds to pay them? Even if one partner consistently makes all the decisions and handles the day-to-day financial dealings it’s important for both partners to be able to perform these roles in the event of an emergency. Just something to think about, Lola. Tai (extremely well organised in this area)

Response:

scullytac wrote: > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting.

This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, seems to be based on a paradox, that a wife can get what she wants from her husband by choosing to not control him.  These are fighting words to many feminists.  But there are similar paradoxes in Harville Hendrix’s relatively gender-neutral model of marital dynamics, where I am told (and believe) that focusing on meeting my partner’s emotional needs first is the path to getting a reciprocal focus from her.   I therefore do not find Boyle’s book to be fundamentally wrong. Here is a partial summary, in the author’s words:   The basic principles of a surrendered wife are that she:  

Question:

We understand the term "Piss off"  as we  should go to the U.S. to present our theory ,is that right? Thanks for the advice. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does the term ‘piss off’ mean anything to you? Peter French To realize profit in profit organizations or companies using the theory of units , the organization’s objective should be determined at first then units that the organization deals with i.e. units which the organization trade in , produce , extract or classify are determined.After determining these units accurately and listing them in the organization’s chart of accounts theory of units starts to give real movement of each account in terms of quantity and value which result in the profit of that account during its daily movement. This is obvious in all organizations which deal with quantities.Questions may arise about how this is achieved in companies which deal with intangible units or cash (exchange) and about the way profit is determined in these companies. As mentioned before the organization’s objective and units should be determined, for example , an exchange organization that deal basically with the Kuwaiti dinar, purchase ten thousand (10000) U.S dollars, price of one dollar is (290) filses and sold of them (5000) dollars, dollar price is three hundred filses.The following diagram illustrates how profit is realized from this operation :       Incoming Units (+)           |     Outgoing Units (-)        (intangible )               |       (intangible )                                    |   No.  price   value in dinar      |  No. price   value in dinar  10000 x290.  =  2900              |  5000 x 300. = 1500               The purchasing       |              The selling               operation in the     |              operation in the                previous example    |              previous example               =  50                |  5000  x 290. = 1450              Gross profit of       |             represents the              the previous         |             remaining U.S                operation           |               dollars  10000   Total   2950  Total       |    10000   Total   2950  Total          Units         Values      |            Units         Values In theory of units there are no purchases or sales but they are mentioned in this example for the purpose of simplifying.  To show results in theory of units in the previous example (10000) U.S dollars were added to the organization at a price of two hundred and ninety filses . In the second operation (5000) U.S dollars are sold at a price of three hundred filses , from the previous diagram this accounting operation made profit of (50)U.S dollars. Finally , theory of units is general and could be applied in all fields whether in companies or agencies that deal with tangible units or authorities and organization which deal with intangible units, also profit authorities and authorities that aim to serve the public. Applying it to non-profit authorities is a lot easier than the double entry system that is applied in the governmental organization and agencies currently.Applying the theory and its benefit include all activities and all organizations.  In addition to that extracting accounting data in theory of units is easy and accurate.Experiments proved that the theory  saves about 50% of annul expenses for profit or non-profit companies or organizations whether they deal with tangible, intangible units or both.

Response:

Does the term ‘piss off’ mean anything to you? Peter French

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To realize profit in profit organizations or companies using the theory of units , the organization’s objective should be determined at first then units that the organization deals with i.e. units which the organization trade in , produce , extract or classify are determined.After determining these units accurately and listing them in the organization’s chart of accounts theory of units starts to give real movement of each account in terms of quantity and value which result in the profit of that account during its daily movement. This is obvious in all organizations which deal with quantities.Questions may arise about how this is achieved in companies which deal with intangible units or cash (exchange) and about the way profit is determined in these companies. As mentioned before the organization’s objective and units should be determined, for example , an exchange organization that deal basically with the Kuwaiti dinar, purchase ten thousand (10000) U.S dollars, price of one dollar is (290) filses and sold of them (5000) dollars, dollar price is three hundred filses.The following diagram illustrates how profit is realized from this operation :       Incoming Units (+)           |     Outgoing Units (-)        (intangible )               |       (intangible )                                    |   No.  price   value in dinar      |  No. price   value in dinar  10000 x290.  =  2900              |  5000 x 300. = 1500               The purchasing       |              The selling               operation in the     |              operation in the                previous example    |              previous example               =  50                |  5000  x 290. = 1450              Gross profit of       |             represents the              the previous         |             remaining U.S                operation           |               dollars  10000   Total   2950  Total       |    10000   Total   2950  Total          Units         Values      |            Units         Values In theory of units there are no purchases or sales but they are mentioned in this example for the purpose of simplifying.  To show results in theory of units in the previous example (10000) U.S dollars were added to the organization at a price of two hundred and ninety filses . In the second operation (5000) U.S dollars are sold at a price of three hundred filses , from the previous diagram this accounting operation made profit of (50)U.S dollars. Finally , theory of units is general and could be applied in all fields whether in companies or agencies that deal with tangible units or authorities and organization which deal with intangible units, also profit authorities and authorities that aim to serve the public. Applying it to non-profit authorities is a lot easier than the double entry system that is applied in the governmental organization and agencies currently.Applying the theory and its benefit include all activities and all organizations.  In addition to that extracting accounting data in theory of units is easy and accurate.Experiments proved that the theory  saves about 50% of annul expenses for profit or non-profit companies or organizations whether they deal with tangible, intangible units or both.

Response:

To realize profit in profit organizations or companies using the theory of units , the organization’s objective should be determined at first then units that the organization deals with i.e. units which the organization trade in , produce , extract or classify are determined.After determining these units accurately and listing them in the organization’s chart of accounts theory of units starts to give real movement of each account in terms of quantity and value which result in the profit of that account during its daily movement. This is obvious in all organizations which deal with quantities.Questions may arise about how this is achieved in companies which deal with intangible units or cash (exchange) and about the way profit is determined in these companies. As mentioned before the organization’s objective and units should be determined, for example , an exchange organization that deal basically with the Kuwaiti dinar, purchase ten thousand (10000) U.S dollars, price of one dollar is (290) filses and sold of them (5000) dollars, dollar price is three hundred filses.The following diagram illustrates how profit is realized from this operation :       Incoming Units (+)           |     Outgoing Units (-)        (intangible )               |       (intangible )                                    |   No.  price   value in dinar      |  No. price   value in dinar    10000 x290.  =  2900              |  5000 x 300. = 1500               The purchasing       |              The selling               operation in the     |              operation in the                previous example    |              previous example               =  50                |  5000  x 290. = 1450              Gross profit of       |             represents the              the previous         |             remaining U.S                operation           |               dollars  10000   Total   2950  Total       |    10000   Total   2950  Total          Units         Values      |            Units         Values In theory of units there are no purchases or sales but they are mentioned in this example for the purpose of simplifying.  To show results in theory of units in the previous example (10000) U.S dollars were added to the organization at a price of two hundred and ninety filses . In the second operation (5000) U.S dollars are sold at a price of three hundred filses , from the previous diagram this accounting operation made profit of (50)U.S dollars. Finally , theory of units is general and could be applied in all fields whether in companies or agencies that deal with tangible units or authorities and organization which deal with intangible units, also profit authorities and authorities that aim to serve the public. Applying it to non-profit authorities is a lot easier than the double entry system that is applied in the governmental organization and agencies currently.Applying the theory and its benefit include all activities and all organizations.  In addition to that extracting accounting data in theory of units is easy and accurate.Experiments proved that the theory  saves about 50% of annul expenses for profit or non-profit companies or organizations whether they deal with tangible, intangible units or both.

Response:

Question:

An Innovative Lifelong Learning Methodology

Question:

Has anyone worked with a program called Construction Manager.  A client of mine uses QuickBooks and says it is not giving him detailed job costing reports which he needs. He wasn’t specific but did mention budget vs. actual in QuickBooks is awkward.  We work with QuickBooks, but am not all that familiar with the Job Costing section. My client is subdividing one lot and building 3 houses.

Response:

    You might suggest he look at Red Wing (which I resell) which has a job costing module. It’s noticeably more than QB, but you get more.     The demo version includes job costing and is construction oriented. It can be downloaded. Luck,  Dana To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the address Visit our web site at http://www.tailored-computing.com

Response:

The two leading products, as best I know, are American Contractor and Timberline.  Timberline is probably superior.   I think you can get a demo or trial version. Actually, most prospects don’t want detailed job cost, they want semi-automated job cost.  That is, they want the computer to do the maximum work so they can pull relevant reports with less effort. If this makes sense, I can offer a few alternative suggestions. Respectfully,  - Carl Dick 949-261-2694 www.cpaccess.com Has anyone worked with a program called Construction Manager.  A client of mine uses QuickBooks and says it is not giving him detailed job costing reports which he needs. He wasn’t specific but did mention budget vs. actual in QuickBooks is awkward.  We work with QuickBooks, but am not all that familiar with the Job Costing section. My client is subdividing one lot and building 3 houses.

- Carl Dick 949-261-2694 800-997-7944 www.cpaccess.com

Response:

Ron, I do a lot of contractors, but I am not familiar with "Construction Manager". If all your guy intends to do is subdivide one lot and build three houses, you might want to check out some of Mike Block’s workarounds and stay with QB.  It can take longer to set up a specilized system than it will take to do three houses. In case he has more serious things in mind, I’ve included a couple of useful sites. http://www.ctsguides.com/construction/body.html http://www.dirtpile.com/texis/index/Computer_Software/Accounting/ Jim Hudspeth, a Washington CPA Has anyone worked with a program called Construction Manager.  A client of mine uses QuickBooks and says it is not giving him detailed job costing reports which he needs. He wasn’t specific but did mention budget vs. actual in QuickBooks is awkward.  We work with QuickBooks, but am not all that familiar with the Job Costing section. My client is subdividing one lot and building 3 houses.

Response:

The two leading products, as best I know, are American Contractor and Timberline.  Timberline is probably superior.   I think you can get a demo or trial version.

Yes, Timberline is a GOIN CONCERN!  Very competent. I got a free demo CD the latest version this week simply by asking for it on the webpage. Todd

Response:

The two leading products, as best I know, are American Contractor and Timberline.  Timberline is probably superior.   I think you can get a demo or trial version. Yes, Timberline is a GOIN CONCERN!  Very competent. I got a free demo CD the latest version this week simply by asking for it on the webpage. Todd

Todd, I have at least one client running Timberline.  It is indeed a "goin concern" and very competent. It is also a bit expensive, both in terms of purchase and setup – not what I would recommend to a person who wants to subdivide one lot and build three houses. Best Regards, Jim Hudspeth, CPA

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Question:

Anyone know that interesting histories of the accounting terms ‘credit’ and ‘debit’?

Response:

Anyone know that interesting histories of the accounting terms ‘credit’ and ‘debit’?

My understanding is that the are the anglicized versions of the Italian.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – |All CPAs I know insist on getting business checks back. You save |little on not doing this. Copies can be hard to read & you can spend |fortunes on delayed supplier inquiries & tax audits that demand copies |of endorsements. Endorsements also often let us classify checks we |could not classify based on payees. |You also cannot sort images without cutting, which makes it |impractical to do this. firefly said: Times are changing– controls need to take this into account. Ultimately, technology will be the solution.  If your auditors and accountants require such documentation, ask them whether they are aware of the lastest developments; auditors/accountants need to be agents of change.   I predict that within ten years, your accountants will be pushing for "paperless" controls.  It does mean changing the way business is done.  –FF– I did not say it’s a good idea to get checks back. I said, "ALL CPAs I know INSIST on getting  business checks back." I should have said I NEVER heard of a CPA who did not STRONGLY ADVISE this. All these CPAs know you pay more to get checks back. However, businesses who do not do this eventuially waste fortunes on bank copy charges. They also face upset suppliers, tax audits, tax liens, & big bookkeeping & accounting fees, while waiting 2-3 months. By the way, I have been a hi-tech leader since programming IBM 402 accounting machines & 650 computers in 1960. However, this is not yet a  hi-tech matter. We will never know when we will need one or many front & back check copies. The total real cost of getting such copies occasionally is much bigger than the costs of getting all originals initially. We would love to be able to go online & quickly get copies of only the checks we need when we need them. However, until we can, businesses cannot afford not to get back originals. Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 I suspect the businesses you deal with have problems with customers and/or suppliers.  I think most businesses would not need the back (endorsement) side of the check each month.

Once again, I did not refer to my clients, I referred to every CPA I ever talked to or read about. In cases like this I have long applied collective wisdom of other professionals, not my personal feelings. Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 Taxation is legalized theft! Please help stop this organized crime!

Response:

|All CPAs I know insist on getting business checks back. You save |little on not doing this. Copies can be hard to read & you can spend |fortunes on delayed supplier inquiries & tax audits that demand copies |of endorsements. Endorsements also often let us classify checks we |could not classify based on payees. |You also cannot sort images without cutting, which makes it |impractical to do this.

firefly said: Times are changing– controls need to take this into account. Ultimately, technology will be the solution.  If your auditors and accountants require such documentation, ask them whether they are aware of the lastest developments; auditors/accountants need to be agents of change.   I predict that within ten years, your accountants will be pushing for "paperless" controls.  It does mean changing the way business is done.  –FF–

I did not say it’s a good idea to get checks back. I said, "ALL CPAs I know INSIST on getting  business checks back." I should have said I NEVER heard of a CPA who did not STRONGLY ADVISE this. All these CPAs know you pay more to get checks back. However, businesses who do not do this eventuially waste fortunes on bank copy charges. They also face upset suppliers, tax audits, tax liens, & big bookkeeping & accounting fees, while waiting 2-3 months. By the way, I have been a hi-tech leader since programming IBM 402 accounting machines & 650 computers in 1960. However, this is not yet a  hi-tech matter. We will never know when we will need one or many front & back check copies. The total real cost of getting such copies occasionally is much bigger than the costs of getting all originals initially. We would love to be able to go online & quickly get copies of only the checks we need when we need them. However, until we can, businesses cannot afford not to get back originals. Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 Taxation is legalized theft! Please help stop this organized crime!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – |All CPAs I know insist on getting business checks back. You save |little on not doing this. Copies can be hard to read & you can spend |fortunes on delayed supplier inquiries & tax audits that demand copies |of endorsements. Endorsements also often let us classify checks we |could not classify based on payees. |You also cannot sort images without cutting, which makes it |impractical to do this. firefly said: Times are changing– controls need to take this into account. Ultimately, technology will be the solution.  If your auditors and accountants require such documentation, ask them whether they are aware of the lastest developments; auditors/accountants need to be agents of change.   I predict that within ten years, your accountants will be pushing for "paperless" controls.  It does mean changing the way business is done.  –FF– I did not say it’s a good idea to get checks back. I said, "ALL CPAs I know INSIST on getting  business checks back." I should have said I NEVER heard of a CPA who did not STRONGLY ADVISE this. All these CPAs know you pay more to get checks back. However, businesses who do not do this eventuially waste fortunes on bank copy charges. They also face upset suppliers, tax audits, tax liens, & big bookkeeping & accounting fees, while waiting 2-3 months. By the way, I have been a hi-tech leader since programming IBM 402 accounting machines & 650 computers in 1960. However, this is not yet a  hi-tech matter. We will never know when we will need one or many front & back check copies. The total real cost of getting such copies occasionally is much bigger than the costs of getting all originals initially. We would love to be able to go online & quickly get copies of only the checks we need when we need them. However, until we can, businesses cannot afford not to get back originals. Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334

I suspect the businesses you deal with have problems with customers and/or suppliers.  I think most businesses would not need the back (endorsement) side of the check each month.

Response:

//snip// | I did not say it’s a good idea to get checks back. I said, "ALL CPAs I | know INSIST on getting  business checks back." I should have said I | NEVER heard of a CPA who did not STRONGLY ADVISE this. | | All these CPAs know you pay more to get checks back. However, | businesses who do not do this eventuially waste fortunes on bank copy | charges. They also face upset suppliers, tax audits, tax liens, & big | bookkeeping & accounting fees, while waiting 2-3 months. | | By the way, I have been a hi-tech leader since programming IBM 402 | accounting machines & 650 computers in 1960. However, this is not yet | a  hi-tech matter. We will never know when we will need one or many | front & back check copies. The total real cost of getting such copies | occasionally is much bigger than the costs of getting all originals | initially. We would love to be able to go online & quickly get copies | of only the checks we need when we need them. However, until we can, | businesses cannot afford not to get back originals. | Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 | |I suspect the businesses you deal with have problems with |customers and/or suppliers.  I think most businesses would not need the |back (endorsement) side of the check each month. | |Once again, I did not refer to my clients, I referred to every CPA I |ever talked to or read about. In cases like this I have long applied |collective wisdom of other professionals, not my personal feelings. | | |Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 |Taxation is legalized theft! Please help stop this organized crime! | Mike is likely right in what he says.  But again, auditors and accountants need to be agents of change.  Old ways don’t mean the best ways, especially in our techno society.  –FF– —- —-  Firefly  -<— My tables don’t link!

Response:

Sure it is a question of technology — are we willing to adapt now to tomorrows standard. Some high tech banks have seen the light and will transmit the check copies into your keeping on a regular basis via CD.. I am not sure of readability. It depends on the media used to orininally capture the images and the tech. who monitored it.  Could be as bad as the old microfiche copies which often proved only that a truck had run over the check before the bank saw it. Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a  hi-tech matter. We will never know when we will need one or many front & back check copies. The total real cost of getting such copies occasionally is much bigger than the costs of getting all originals initially. We would love to be able to go online & quickly get copies of only the checks we need when we need them. However, until we can, businesses cannot afford not to get back originals. Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 I suspect the businesses you deal with have problems with customers and/or suppliers.  I think most businesses would not need the back (endorsement) side of the check each month.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //snip// | I did not say it’s a good idea to get checks back. I said, "ALL CPAs I | know INSIST on getting  business checks back." I should have said I | NEVER heard of a CPA who did not STRONGLY ADVISE this. | | All these CPAs know you pay more to get checks back. However, | businesses who do not do this eventuially waste fortunes on bank copy | charges. They also face upset suppliers, tax audits, tax liens, & big | bookkeeping & accounting fees, while waiting 2-3 months. | | By the way, I have been a hi-tech leader since programming IBM 402 | accounting machines & 650 computers in 1960. However, this is not yet | a  hi-tech matter. We will never know when we will need one or many | front & back check copies. The total real cost of getting such copies | occasionally is much bigger than the costs of getting all originals | initially. We would love to be able to go online & quickly get copies | of only the checks we need when we need them. However, until we can, | businesses cannot afford not to get back originals. | Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 | |I suspect the businesses you deal with have problems with |customers and/or suppliers.  I think most businesses would not need the |back (endorsement) side of the check each month. | |Once again, I did not refer to my clients, I referred to every CPA I |ever talked to or read about. In cases like this I have long applied |collective wisdom of other professionals, not my personal feelings. | | |Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 |Taxation is legalized theft! Please help stop this organized crime! | Mike is likely right in what he says.  But again, auditors and accountants need to be agents of change.  Old ways don’t mean the best ways, especially in our techno society.  –FF– —- —-  Firefly  -<— My tables don’t link!

For most purposes, I will not accept a client that does not get all their checks back. Many basic problems are avoided or solved by having them, while many new problems are created by not having them. The banks haven’t yet provided a practical substitute. — Felix Miata, JD, CPA Team OS/2 running v4 FP3 via RSUCSF.ZIP FIx ADDRESs To REPLy.

Response:

Can anybody recommend a good bank for a small business? I’m looking for a checking account without a huge minimum balance, reasonable transaction fees, and that returns the original check.

CIB Bank has a few branches, mine is in Hillside, and they do all those things.   ^^^^    –oo  Bob Longmire        bobatlongmiredotcom      `   http://www.longmire.com

Response:

Can anybody recommend a good bank for a small business? I’m looking for a checking account without a huge minimum balance, reasonable transaction fees, and that returns the original check. First Chicago has reasonable fees, but IIRC, they give you a micro image of the front of the check, not the original. I don’t expect to be writing or depositing more than a dozen checks a month so per-check fees are less of a concern, and would prefer a bank with branch offices on northwest side or near-northwest (eg Skokie) suburbs. Thanks in advance,                                         Kevin Kadow

Response:

Kevin- From your requirements, I guess this is less for you, but for anyone

else who has the same needs I’d highly recommend Amalgamated Bank downtown. They don’t have any branches, but they do offer a low-cost business checking account that won my personal survey of about ten banks hands down. Terry Schilling — T/S Recording provides full service video, audio and music production and post-production services for both traditional media and the Web.

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| Can anybody recommend a good bank for a small business? | I’m looking for a checking account without a huge minimum balance, | reasonable transaction fees, and that returns the original check. | |Whats wrong with getting an image of a check?, you only need the |original for a few situations and then you can still get the check. | |I need to copy both the front and BACK of the check to show the |endorsements and audit trail to show | "see, the check was signed by YOU and went into YOUR account". |As to paying the fee to get a check, I’d be frustrated at the need to |file the application and wait for the check.  That’s adding more |steps to an already annoying process. | |All CPAs I know insist on getting business checks back. You save |little on not doing this. Copies can be hard to read & you can spend |fortunes on delayed supplier inquiries & tax audits that demand copies |of endorsements. Endorsements also often let us classify checks we |could not classify based on payees. | |You also cannot sort images without cutting, which makes it |impractical to do this. |Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale 33334 |Taxation is legalized theft! Please help stop this organized crime! Times are changing– controls need to take this into account. Ultimately, technology will be the solution.  If your auditors and accountants require such documentation, ask them whether they are aware of the lastest developments; auditors/accountants need to be agents of change.   I predict that within ten years, your accountants will be pushing for "paperless" controls.  It does mean changing the way business is done.  –FF– —- —-  Firefly  -<— My tables don’t link!

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Question:

According to a certain, well-known British music paper,the oh-so hot Counting Crows (currently riding high with Mr. Jones) are called Accounting Crows in their native S.F., Cal., because of their lucrative deal with Geffen Records. How about that! Alex Nieminen                   "Mr. Jones and me, we’re going to be Journalist                       big stars" Paasikiventie 8 F 45 FIN-33230 TAMPERE                Copyright: Adam Duritz, EMI Blackwood Music. FINLAND

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: I recently saw someone refer to ‘Ace of Base’ as ‘Waste of Tape’.  My : Here’s one: Taste of Mace,Pink ‘Rhoid, : Depeche Mode: Fresh Load : Urethra Franklin : Depeche Commode English translation – "Fast toilet" or "Hurry toilet". –Chris Chris Bradley         | "Chris is missing that circuit that the rest of us have

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I recently saw someone refer to ‘Ace of Base’ as ‘Waste of Tape’.  My Here’s one: Taste of Mace,Pink ‘Rhoid, Depeche Mode: Fresh Load U2: Yoo-Hoo (Bono slurps down some Yoo-Hoo!) this is getting too stupid…sorry Urethra Franklin Depeche Commode Has anyone mentioned the ever popular Stone Pimple Toilets?

I like Douche Commode and Stone Temple Pearl Jam. (Hey, I actually like Depeche Mode, too.)

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I recently saw someone refer to ‘Ace of Base’ as ‘Waste of Tape’.  My Here’s one: Taste of Mace,Pink ‘Rhoid, Depeche Mode: Fresh Load U2: Yoo-Hoo (Bono slurps down some Yoo-Hoo!) this is getting too stupid…sorry Urethra Franklin Depeche Commode

Has anyone mentioned the ever popular Stone Pimple Toilets? Thankfully, I did NOT make that one up… [grievous] — avalanche.master.song||shallow.hole||dead.sun.rising||loud.sounds.dopa glisten||stay.here||sado.feedback.loop||screaming.slave||armageddon x7 goden||les.privilege.des.mort||lick.forever.dog||blackhole.dub||pretty ||knuckles.the.dog||painted.life||who.gave.her.the.roses?||heresy.pt.5

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I recently saw someone refer to ‘Ace of Base’ as ‘Waste of Tape’.  My Here’s one: Taste of Mace,Pink ‘Rhoid, Depeche Mode: Fresh Load U2: Yoo-Hoo (Bono slurps down some Yoo-Hoo!) this is getting too stupid…sorry

Urethra Franklin Depeche Commode — "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"                                                         -HEBREWS

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Question:

Just remember when you enjoy your next half-price super-discount fare, what corners were cut so you could get that ticket.

In other words, instead of being 99.9999% safe you are now only 99.9998% safe. As somebody versed in risk analysis I have no problem saving myself hundreds of $$ for such a small added risk. BTW Mr. Jascourt, do you still fly and how do you justify it to yourself since you seem to feel you are at great risk doing so? The more interesting question is just why does Harel think that a system which reduces fares and allows more people to fly a failure?   Allen — | Allen W. Sherzer | "Giving power and money to government is like giving   |

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(Michael Polen) writes: 1.  There are less ways to get from point A to Point B, not more.

That depends on A and B.  From New York, there are fewer direct flights.  Between two relatively small cities, there are a lot more and better connections than there were.  If you think there’s a market for more direct flights, start an airline and make a lot of money. 2.  When the lower prices reflect the death throes of competitive airlines, enjoy    them (I do).

According to yesterday’s NY Times, analysts now say that the current fare ware is selling so many tickets that the airlines will break even on it.  (That is, their revenue will be the same as it would have been without the fare war.)  Lower fares, more people flying, same airline revenues–sounds good to me.  Just be sure you understand that free and open competition    encourages monopolies, high prices, and poor service.

Funny, I’ve seen lower prices, and service proportional to price. Many people who fly prefer to pay less in return for less comfort (and the same speed).  Those who want to pay more for more comfort can. Deregulation of the airlines may have been a necessary and good thing.  You are just plain mis-informed when you say that flying is cheaper and better today because of it.  It just ain’t so.

It’s definitely cheaper, especially when you factor in inflation.  As for better, I don’t care if I get a $4 meal or a $6 meal on a flight. If it matters, I’ll bring my own food. As for seat size, a 19" wide seat fits 10% more seats into a plane than a 21" wide seat.  Do you want to pay 10% more for 2" extra width? How about another 10% for 3" more legroom?  And another 5% for more luggage space in the cabin (instead of checking it)?  I don’t.

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It seems to me that a full plane at $155. beats a 1/4 full plane at $300-400.

They had a local spokesman for one of the airlines on the news here. They said that their flights had been running at much less than half full (overall, some flights are always popular).  Now they have full planes with half price tickets. — Long computations that yield zero are probably all for naught.

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I was talking to a travel agent last week about this. It appears clear to me that after a number of airlines are out of business, the prices will probably go up (old monopoly thing). However, there is an interesting side issue here: the travel agents are also losing on this business. E.g. on all the tickets that they sold (and now have to re-issue with a lower price) and on which they will sell these last few days (before June 5), the agencies will lose part of their commission as well. Maybe this means that some travel agents also will default? It is not clear that the travel agents sell *more* tickets now and get the same commission as before. There are probably too many travel agents anyway, so it might be a good thing that some disappear. Who knows! Sirpa Saarinen

There has been a lot of talk about how the price war will hurt the airlines. It seems to me that a full plane at $155. beats a 1/4 full plane at $300-400. The planes are filling up.  I have two family members who work with a travel agency.  They have been working until 2:00 in the morning getting tickets booked to insure/try to insure seats.  Open flights do not seem very common right now.  I guess this will hurt the short term business flyer, who in a few weeks needs to go somewhere and there are no seats available. One could argue that if this price thing had not happened the same seats would have been sold, but spread out.  This would mean that there was a income lose. I don’t think this is the case.  I know of a lot of people who are booking trips which would either a)not have existed before, b) a car would have been used. This may hurt the short term flyer, like a business man, who needs a ticket in 3 weeks.  There may not be any! Just my 2 cents. Todd

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Just remember when you enjoy your next half-price super-discount fare, what corners were cut so you could get that ticket. In other words, instead of being 99.9999% safe you are now only 99.9998% safe. As somebody versed in risk analysis I have no problem saving myself hundreds of $$ for such a small added risk.

Leaving aside the fact that air travel is *safer* now than it was in the 1970’s. —                       the university of chicago law school                       down from your tree-house condominum

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Boy, lower prices, more flights, what a bitch.  Now if businesses want to pay lower prices instead of getting large business expense writeoffs, that’s between them and the airlines. — A general leading the State Department resembles a dragon commanding ducks.

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| | Deregulation has helped aunt suzie and uncle bob plan their bi-annual vacation | | which is scheduled months in advance. | | | | Well this sucks.  I think uncle Bozo should have to pick up the tab, | | not the multi-million dollar tax-evading corporate world. | | Why is it that either type should have to pay more.  Just because a | business person needs to travel doesn’t mean they should pick up the | tab for everyone on the plane.  I recently tried to start a business | | Hey, here’s an idea: let’s give the best fares to those folks who give | the airline 14 days advance notice … (and not base it on ‘vacationer’ | or ‘business’ traveler) … uh, wait a minute … | Obviously I own everyone an apology for not having communicated my thought properly.  The problem, IMO (too hell with H), is when the system is built on the assumption that there will always be business travelers that don’t care what they pay.  When you finally reach the point they can no longer accept the prices or the service, they can no longer support a system which gives everyone else lower fares. I do not know if we are there yet, but the question being raised by airline analysts is if the latest round of price cuts is an indication we are there. They are saying that many airlines "May" go out of business because the current price levels do not provide profitable airline flights.  If that is the case, then all you that have enjoyed the low fare options, will loose them. I do stand by my statement that the service is much worse.         1.      Fewer Non-stops (Hubs are an expensive convenience)         2.      Worse Food         3.      Narrower Seats         4.      Less Leg Room         5.      Less luggage space You may decide that these things don’t matter if you fly once a year.  But many business travelers are required by their companies to spend a lot of their life flying.  It would be like your house shrinking, the utilities becoming undependable, the closets disappearing, and the cook burning everything.

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Sounds like the airlines see an economic advantage in having people book their flights in advance and are trading a lower price for the security of having more people booked in advance.  The advanced bookings probably let them use their aircraft more efficiently (by putting them where people are demanding them) and encourages people to fly that could not otherwise afford to.  It certainly helps aunt suzie and uncle bob.

Airlines tend to make aircraft changes based on past history of certain flights and the supply/demand at different airports.  In general, they are unable to change "spur-of-the-moment" to accommodate short-term increases in certain markets, even if one to two months in advance. The overall market is what matters, especially when dealing with a limited number of aircraft with different seating capacities. If businesses are really in a jam, some smart person will buy long (tickets in advance) at the reduced rates, sell short (tickets to businesses that cannot plan long term) at less than the airline short rate, and pocket the difference. Airlines get increased security, businesses get lower rates, and the enterprising person makes money.

In theory, this isn’t so bad. But consider the fact that the airlines consider their tickets to be non-transferrable, to be used by the person to which it is issued.  They can deny passage to people travelling under someone else’s name.  Of course, if your company were willing to accept this (and most businesses would discourage it), your idea would be great.  Don’t look for the airlines to go for it, though– they like charging a fortune for tickets with no advanced planning. -JPC — John P. Curcio                  Go Bruins!                 Philips Laboratories (914) 945-6442                                       Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510

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   1.      Fewer Non-stops (Hubs are an expensive convenience)

Expensive for whom?  Convienient for whom? Sure everyone would prefer to go non-stop, but no airline can provide near ubiquetous non-stops.  Hubs enable an airline to offer affordable service to far more places than they could otherwise.  If you reduced the hubs, either prices would skyrocket even worse on the lighter routes, or routes would be eliminated even more than has already happened. Remember, before deregulation, airlines were forced to provide service to many, many very unprofitable locations.  After deregulation, any location which could not carry its weight, or at least come close, was dropped from the majors, spurring the rise in small commuter airlines.  If the airlines were to eliminate, or even reduce, hubbing, even more areas would lose service.  And most other routes would cost more in the long run.

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[Miscellaneous anecdotal stuff about the evils of deregulation...] The overall reduction in fares we see today is a warning symptom.  Airlines have been losing dependable business travelers because of the deterioration of service and the terrible price/performance status.

Amazing.  Capitalism at work.  Airlines are losing business, so they have to reduce fares and improve service.  Maybe it took them a few years to wake up, and it may take a little longer for them to get used to the new deregulated climate, but they will come around.  Airlines that provide better service get more business.  It’s simple.  It works.  Don’t let the government get back in and screw it up. — Lee Daniel Crocker        | Zen Buddhist,

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[Miscellaneous anecdotal stuff about the evils of deregulation...] The overall reduction in fares we see today is a warning symptom.  Airlines have been losing dependable business travelers because of the deterioration of service and the terrible price/performance status. Amazing.  Capitalism at work.  Airlines are losing business, so they have to reduce fares and improve service.  Maybe it took them a few years to wake up, and it may take a little longer for them to get used to the new deregulated climate, but they will come around.  Airlines that provide better service get more business.  It’s simple.  It works.  Don’t let the government get back in and screw it up.

There is an article in today New York Times (Page C1) about the "fare war" going on, and those super low tickets you have to buy by Friday.  The article states that, much to the shock of the people offering them, they may actually BREAK EVEN on the deal.  Incredible business acumen.  They’ve been selling the tickets with the expectation of a loss. "Moreover, new bookings are so heavy that airline executives who at first expected the lower fares to plunge the industry deeper into debt, now say the carriers could at least break even on the sale becauseo fhte extraordinarily high response." While they claim that this is to prop up a sagging industry: ("When Northwest announced its two-for-one sale, it said it was doing so to stimulate domestic traffic that continued to lag, despite the industry’s introduction of a simplified four-tier structure in April.") it sounds more like a desperate bid for ready cash. So what we have is not "better service at a cheaper price", but a short term price war after which comes the shakeout and fewer carriers with less competition.  They are doing so badly they are selling tickets at a loss just to keep going and keep the planes flying.  Doesn’t sound too healthy to me. BTW – no one has yet mentioned that service is any better (it isn’t, and I’ve got the horror stories to back that up) just cheaper. Oh, well, a couple of horror stories (and these don’t include the engines that fall off, the roofs that rip off, etc. etc.) – A 3 hour delay leaving San Francisco because "the necessary   equipment" (i.e the plane) was not there. – A delay at a stopover because they’d sold all the seats that   30-40 people were sitting in. – A plane that, five minutes out of Atlanta, had to turn back   because it was hot as hell in the plane and not getting any   better.  2 hours and another plane later – we left again. marc colten

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   them (I do).  Just be sure you understand that free and open competition    encourages monopolies, high prices, and poor service.

I understand no such thing.  Tell us how, exactly, pray tell.  Poor service, yes, if people don’t value that enough to pay much more for a ticket.  On the other hand, Alaska Airlines is still going strong, and they have the best service in the business.  Monopolies and high prices you don’t get without government support. Anti-trust laws have been in place to protect us from immoral use of monopolistic positions.

Anti-trust laws have been in place to protect us from government created monopolies like Standard Oil (which was already disintegrating) and AT&T. Deregulation of the airlines may have been a necessary and good thing.  You are just plain mis-informed when you say that flying is cheaper and better today because of it.  It just ain’t so.

Certainly it’s cheaper.  Every figure I’ve seen puts the savings in the billions per year, usually above $10.  The number of flights out of all sizes of airports are up an average of 50%.  Now, it might be the case that your particular area had been subsidized under regulation, in which case it’s quite possible that you got screwed by the deregulation. — I would have made a good pope.  – Richard Nixon

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| | Harlan, airline deregulation was one of the best liberal | policies of Jimmy Carter.  It has its advantages and disadvantages, | but overall it has been a huge success.  It has been good | for consumers.  Please don’t protect me from lower prices | and better service. | ?????

This price war is just the last straw for any of the airlines that are  on the brink.  Yes it is "good business" for the ones that are financially stronger now, but it will put some more out of business and the service will get even worse. Just my opinion Greg

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That "sad legacy" has been all over the new recently.  A fare war has broke out and consumers are now saving hundreds of dollars per flight.  How terrible.  (Yes, this is sarcasm). Harlan, airline deregulation was one of the best liberal policies of Jimmy Carter.  It has its advantages and disadvantages, but overall it has been a huge success.  It has been good for consumers.  Please don’t protect me from lower prices and better service. Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect

Fares for vacationers generally have been lower, but airlines have steadily been consolidating and the holiday is going to end, probably soon. Let’s wait another ten years and then judge this. And fares for business travelers have been already addressed in other posts. So far…mixed. Now let’s look at some other issues. Take Northworst Airlines for example. A few years after deregulation, they took over Republic Airlines. Republic had been cheap (compared to other airlines for the same route), not luxirious, safe, and on time. Northwest had a reputation as a first-rate airline in terms of service, quality, safety, training, etc. But as soon as they took over Republic, they cut staff so that if *anything* happened other than things running perfectly smoothly, they were terribly understaffed behind the ticket counter. And they cut maintenance staff. And they cut flight staff. And they have ever since had frequent and severe maintenance and safety violations. They have attempted to land at the wrong airport. They have misjudged the runway by thousands of feet but recovered to land safely. They have not been adequately training their pilots on aborting takeoff. The FAA has an awesome record of violations against Northwest. I don’t know if other airlines are just as bad in terms of safety and maintenance, and the problem at Northwest stems from cutting corners, not from employees not trying hard enough (with the exception of some baggage incidents at DTW that were deliberately staged by employees angry at their employer). Would these problems have occurred without deregulation? Well, consider that the hostile business climate promoted this kind of corporate behavior, it is reasonable to think these problems would not be as bad as they have been. Of course, we’ll never know for sure. Just remember when you enjoy your next half-price super-discount fare, what corners were cut so you could get that ticket.

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| [.....] | Deregulation has helped aunt suzie and uncle bob plan their bi-annual vacation | which is scheduled months in advance. | | Well this sucks.  I think uncle Bozo should have to pick up the tab, | not the multi-million dollar tax-evading corporate world. Why is it that either type should have to pay more.  Just because a business person needs to travel doesn’t mean they should pick up the tab for everyone on the plane.  I recently tried to start a business

Hey, here’s an idea: let’s give the best fares to those folks who give the airline 14 days advance notice … (and not base it on ‘vacationer’ or ‘business’ traveler) … uh, wait a minute … Just as in any economic system, those who can take the risk of making a prediction (like, ‘i see it clearly now, i will go to tahiti in the fall …’ could also be read ‘i see clearly now, I want to attend the sales rally in San Diego in the fall’) will benefit if their ‘prediction’ is correct; this is similar to what’s known as ‘futures trading’. The person is taking the risk that they’ll travel later on.  If they don’t travel, they lose out.  If they do, they save money. Business travelers have the same option (with perhaps some Saturday night stay crap thrown in for confusion). Roger Leuthner

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I was talking to a travel agent last week about this. It appears clear to me that after a number of airlines are out of business, the prices will probably go up (old monopoly thing). However, there is an interesting side issue here: the travel agents are also losing on this business. E.g. on all the tickets that they sold (and now have to re-issue with a lower price) and on which they will sell these last few days (before June 5), the agencies will lose part of their commission as well. Maybe this means that some travel agents also will default? It is not clear that the travel agents sell *more* tickets now and get the same commission as before. There are probably too many travel agents anyway, so it might be a good thing that some disappear. Who knows! Sirpa Saarinen

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a business traveler that has logged well over a million miles and have flown for over 25 years.  Prices are higher and service is worse.  Since business travellers are unable to plan well in advance, they have been unable to take advantage of the "reductions" made available to the leisure traveler. Yet, although business travellers subsidize the industry, they have gotten worse connections, worse food, fewer flights, higher prices, an elimination of the inter-carrier cooperation on connection flights, etc. Deregulation has helped aunt suzie and uncle bob plan their bi-annual vacation which is scheduled months in advance.  When the business travelers can no longer justify supporting the system (it is happening now), the trouble begins. The overall reduction in fares we see today is a warning symptom.  Airlines have been losing dependable business travelers because of the deterioration of service and the terrible price/performance status.  This will finally bring the "sad legacy" to reality.

*—- This really has me confused.  Just how did the myriad of pre-deregulation airlines have larger planes, more frequent flights, more direct flights, and gourmet food and still maintain substantially lower prices?  Doesn’t it make you wonder if other factors (like substantially higher fuel and labor costs) might have come into play concurrently with deregulation? If we reinstate the old regulations, how many of you think prices will actually go down while we increase the frequency of flights, include better meals, make all tickets refundable, etc.? Personally, I can live without an airline meal on a 2 hour flight. —         Mike Berger         Department of Statistics, University of Illinois         AT&TNET     217-244-6067

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Ron Dippold writes: Deregulation of the airlines may have been a necessary and good thing.  You are just plain mis-informed when you say that flying is cheaper and better today because of it.  It just ain’t so.

The New York Times had extensive coverage about a month ago where it explains that deregulation brought effective higher prices. They also pointed out that the recent wave of price reductions by AA, were just to compensate for the extreme upswing of airfares. The writer side that prices are about 50% higher in real terms after deregulation+AA price wars (If you don’t factor inflation prices are about 200% higher). On the other hand, the abuses of the SABRE reservation system mentioned by the original article had nothing to do with regulation or deregulation. Alex — Deparment of Computer Science                       University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ontario                                                   Canada

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Ron Dippold writes:

| Boy, lower prices, more flights, what a bitch.  Now if businesses want | to pay lower prices instead of getting large business expense | writeoffs, that’s between them and the airlines. | 1.  There are less ways to get from point A to Point B, not more.  By taking the     old non-stops and turning them into 2 and 3 leg trips, the airlines claim     more flights.  Great.  To get from New York to LA I can take twice as     many flights as I used to — unfortunately I have to take twice as many     flights.  What the heck, I like changing planes for the airlines convenience. 2.  When the lower prices reflect the death throes of competitive airlines, enjoy     them (I do).  Just be sure you understand that free and open competition     encourages monopolies, high prices, and poor service.  Anti-trust laws have     been in place to protect us from immoral use of monopolistic positions. 3.  Take a basic business course.  A business expense writeoff is a cost of     doing business not related to the cost of the sold product.  If you buy     a computer, the metal, chips, drives, etc.  are called cost of goods.     The salary of the salesman, receptionist, etc.  are business writeoffs.     The cost of planefares is factored into every product you buy.  It is not     in your best interest to have the business community overpaying. Deregulation of the airlines may have been a necessary and good thing.  You are just plain mis-informed when you say that flying is cheaper and better today because of it.  It just ain’t so.

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That "sad legacy" has been all over the new recently.  A fare war has broke out and consumers are now saving hundreds of dollars per flight.  How terrible.  (Yes, this is sarcasm). Harlan, airline deregulation was one of the best liberal policies of Jimmy Carter.  It has its advantages and disadvantages, but overall it has been a huge success.  It has been good for consumers.  Please don’t protect me from lower prices and better service. — Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect EX-Twins’ Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)

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I am a business traveler that has logged well over a million miles and have flown for over 25 years.  Prices are higher and service is worse.  Since

Yes, and what I paid a dollar for in 1979 (sorry, but before that I was too young to think about it) costs me about four today.  OK, so this is a gross estimate, but you get the idea (which is pretty difficult to dispute, in this context).  Sure, there are exceptions to this- (take computers, for example …). Deregulation has helped aunt suzie and uncle bob plan their bi-annual vacation which is scheduled months in advance.

Well this sucks.  I think uncle Bozo should have to pick up the tab, not the multi-million dollar tax-evading corporate world. (uncle bozo doesn’t have much of a chance to tax evade – he’s a salaried worker; i.e. he takes it in the … chops). No whining here; I used to work in New York city for a ‘leveraged leasing’ concern.  The sole purpose of the existance for this entire industry (which, incidently, utilizes such sophisticated tools as linear programming to ‘optimize’ these agreements) is for the purpose of sheltering corporate profits from income tax.  This is one example. Do you pay your own travel expenses on business?  If so, I’m sure you deduct ‘expenses’ from your taxable income (if you don’t, I suggest consulting a tax specialist). If your company pays for it, then they take the deductions. longer justify supporting the system (it is happening now), the trouble begins. The overall reduction in fares we see today is a warning symptom.  Airlines

Yea, lower fares.  Bummer.  Hey, didn’t you just whine about higher fares in the first paragraph?  What is it, you want to pay more or less? have been losing dependable business travelers because of the deterioration

This is news to them, I’m sure.  Yea, that’s the ticket – beam me into the board room, Rossie baby. Roger Leuthner

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | That "sad legacy" has been all over the new recently.  A fare | war has broke out and consumers are now saving hundreds of | dollars per flight.  How terrible.  (Yes, this is sarcasm). | | Harlan, airline deregulation was one of the best liberal | policies of Jimmy Carter.  It has its advantages and disadvantages, | but overall it has been a huge success.  It has been good | for consumers.  Please don’t protect me from lower prices | and better service. | ????? I am a business traveler that has logged well over a million miles and have flown for over 25 years.  Prices are higher and service is worse.  Since business travellers are unable to plan well in advance, they have been unable to take advantage of the "reductions" made available to the leisure traveler. Yet, although business travellers subsidize the industry, they have gotten worse connections, worse food, fewer flights, higher prices, an elimination of the inter-carrier cooperation on connection flights, etc. Deregulation has helped aunt suzie and uncle bob plan their bi-annual vacation which is scheduled months in advance.  When the business travelers can no longer justify supporting the system (it is happening now), the trouble begins. The overall reduction in fares we see today is a warning symptom.  Airlines have been losing dependable business travelers because of the deterioration of service and the terrible price/performance status.  This will finally bring the "sad legacy" to reality.

I have to agree.  I recently had to make several flights, at my own expense, between New Jersey and Atlanta.  At the same time they were advertising $189 round trips to Las Vegas I paid about $500 per ticket. And that was with a special rate through my corporation.  The normal ticket price was closer to $800.  The more I hear about their "hub system" the less I like it.  I’ve also read a bit about "yield management" where each person on the same flight will be paying different rates – with the price going up the closer you get to flight time.  There also don’t seem to be that many flights going anywhere. Some years ago I had a choice of 8-10 flights a day, now I had maybe four. marc colten

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | That "sad legacy" has been all over the new recently.  A fare | war has broke out and consumers are now saving hundreds of | dollars per flight.  How terrible.  (Yes, this is sarcasm). | | Harlan, airline deregulation was one of the best liberal | policies of Jimmy Carter.  It has its advantages and disadvantages, | but overall it has been a huge success.  It has been good | for consumers.  Please don’t protect me from lower prices | and better service. | ????? I am a business traveler that has logged well over a million miles and have flown for over 25 years.  Prices are higher and service is worse.  Since business travellers are unable to plan well in advance, they have been unable to take advantage of the "reductions" made available to the leisure traveler. Yet, although business travellers subsidize the industry, they have gotten worse connections, worse food, fewer flights, higher prices, an elimination of the inter-carrier cooperation on connection flights, etc. Deregulation has helped aunt suzie and uncle bob plan their bi-annual vacation which is scheduled months in advance.

Sounds like the airlines see an economic advantage in having people book their flights in advance and are trading a lower price for the security of having more people booked in advance.  The advanced bookings probably let them use their aircraft more efficiently (by putting them where people are demanding them) and encourages people to fly that could not otherwise afford to.  It certainly helps aunt suzie and uncle bob. What the airlines are doing is setting prices to meet the different markets and maximize profits.  Aunt suzie and uncle bob have a lower price point at which they can afford to fly (but can also trade the security of advanced booking), so the airlines set a lower price for them.  Businesses have a higher price point (but cannot plan in advance), so the airlines set a higher price for them.  Why would you expect an airline to have the same price for two different products? The other way of looking at it is: why should aunt suzzie and uncle bob help subsidise business travelers?                                        When the business travelers can no longer justify supporting the system (it is happening now), the trouble begins.

What kind of troubles?  If buisness travelers cannot afford to pay higher rates for not booking in advance, they can either 1) book in advance (hope that they need to fly) or 2) fly less.  If demand for tickets drop, expect the price to drop (to encourage more people to fly). If businesses are really in a jam, some smart person will buy long (tickets in advance) at the reduced rates, sell short (tickets to businesses that cannot plan long term) at less than the airline short rate, and pocket the difference. Airlines get increased security, businesses get lower rates, and the enterprising person makes money. The overall reduction in fares we see today is a warning symptom.

An "overall reduction in fares" seems like a good thing to me.                                                                    Airlines have been losing dependable business travelers because of the deterioration of service and the terrible price/performance status.

Who are the airlines loosing their "dependable business travelers" to? Greyhound? Am Track?                                                       This will finally bring the "sad legacy" to reality.

– Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect EX-Twins’ Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)

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| | That "sad legacy" has been all over the new recently.  A fare | war has broke out and consumers are now saving hundreds of | dollars per flight.  How terrible.  (Yes, this is sarcasm). | | Harlan, airline deregulation was one of the best liberal | policies of Jimmy Carter.  It has its advantages and disadvantages, | but overall it has been a huge success.  It has been good | for consumers.  Please don’t protect me from lower prices | and better service. | ????? I am a business traveler that has logged well over a million miles and have flown for over 25 years.  Prices are higher and service is worse.  Since business travellers are unable to plan well in advance, they have been unable to take advantage of the "reductions" made available to the leisure traveler. Yet, although business travellers subsidize the industry, they have gotten worse connections, worse food, fewer flights, higher prices, an elimination of the inter-carrier cooperation on connection flights, etc. Deregulation has helped aunt suzie and uncle bob plan their bi-annual vacation which is scheduled months in advance.  When the business travelers can no longer justify supporting the system (it is happening now), the trouble begins. The overall reduction in fares we see today is a warning symptom.  Airlines have been losing dependable business travelers because of the deterioration of service and the terrible price/performance status.  This will finally bring the "sad legacy" to reality.

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[Orignally posted to misc.activism.progressive]     "In the first 10 years of deregulation, the Department of     Transportation approved nearly every airline merger that was     proposed [....] One year later, TWA’s fares on 67 different routes     into and out of St. Louis were 20 percent higher, an increase more     than six times the rate of inflation at the time."     "The majors have also controlled vital information. They developed     computerized reservation systems that naturally favored their own     flights. Whenever a travel agent called up a route on the screen,     the flights of the airline that owned the computer system appeared     first."           D e r e g u l a t i o n ‘ s   S a d   L e g a c y                      Consumer Reports, July 1991 PeopleExpress, Air Florida, New York Air. A decade ago, those upstart airlines were hailed as proof that when the Government lifted controls on prices and routes, the resulting competition would work to the consumer’s benefit. Deregulation, as the process was called, was meant to encourage the growth of new airlines, create more choices for travelers, and drive down prices. Today, most of deregulation’s offspring are dead. Of 150 airlines started after 1978 — the first year of deregulation — 118 have failed or have merged with other carriers. Some airlines established before deregulation, such at Pan Am and TWA, struggle to survive. Many analysts believe the industry will shrink to seven or eight airlines by the end of the decade. The would obviously mean fewer airlines with more control over the market. Though consumers have benefited from lower prices and expanded choices of flights in many instances, the system that has evolved is not what deregulation’s champions envisions. What happened? For one thing, advocates didn’t foresee how effectively major airlines would use the advantage of size to thwart their smaller rivals. The majors gained a competitive edge by investing heavily in what the industry called hub-and-spoke networks. The hub airport receives travelers from many places, then redistributes them, via the spokes, to others. Travelers benefited in one way, because the hub systems allow them to travel to more destinations without having to switch carriers. But for millions of Americas, the hub-and-spoke networks have meant pointless, time-consuming connections, purely for the convenience of an airline. Theodore P. Harris, a McLean, Va., airline consultant, has estimated that the average trip under 2000 miles now takes twice as long as it did before deregulation. The hub-and-spoke system has also aggravated flight delays. Most airlines schedule hub departures and arrivals during concentrated peak periods. When too many planes are scheduled to depart at once, most sit on the tarmac and wait. The Air Transport Association of America, which represents the airline industry, estimates that delays cost Americans $2 billion a year in lost time. Major carriers also hogged space at airports by holding onto long-term gate leases, even ones they didn’t need. At La Guardia and Kennedy airports in New York City, National in Washington, D.C., and O’Hare in Chicago, only a set number of planes may depart and land each hour; the major carriers locked up those "landing slots,": which had been given to them free by the Federal Government. If a new carrier wanted to fly there, it frequently had to sublease slots and gates and pay to use the other airline’s staff. Michael E. Levine, dean of Yale’s School of Organization and Management and former president of the now-defunct New York Air, says his airline had to pay American Airlines $1000 per flight to use its gate staff. New York Air employees, he says, could have done the job for $280. The majors have also controlled vital information. They developed computerized reservation systems that naturally favored their own flights. Whenever a travel agent called up a route on the screen, the flights of the airline that owned the computer system appeared first. The Government stopped that practice in 1984. But the General Accounting Office says that other unfair practices continue. Computers also made possible "yield management," a system to reap the more profit from each flight. To manage the system, airlines created several new fare categories, each with a barrage of restrictions. Fully refundable tickets, which were standard before deregulation, became a premium product. On the 20 most-traveled routes, their prices rose 45 percent between early 1988 and 1991. The Consumer Price Index, in contracts, rose 13.3 percent. Even the least expensive, nonrefundable tickets for those popular routes rose substantially during that period — 37 percent, according to Runzheimer International, a travel research company. In the first 10 years of deregulation, the Department of Transportation approved nearly every airline merger that was proposed, despite warnings that some carriers would monopolize certain airports. TWA’s 1986 acquisition of Ozark Airlines gave it 82 percent of air traffic at Lambert Field in St. Louis. One year later, TWA’s fares on 67 different routes into and out of St. Louis were 20 percent higher, an increase more than six times the rate of inflation at the time. Residents in some less-populous states also have suffered. It’s now easier than ever to fly from Bismarck, N.D., to an out-of-state destination. But in-state air service has virtually disappeared. To compensate, the University of North Dakota, in partnership with private sponsors, is developing a new air service, using student pilots from Taiwan. Airline consolidation — and deteriorating service — is likely to continue. Weighted down by the heavy debt load they took on to expand in the 1980s and by unexpectedly high fuel costs early in this decade, several airlines now fight to stay aloft. The 20 largest airlines, which represent 97 percent of domestic air traffic, lost nearly $4-billion in 1990. From "The Best (and Worst) Airlines" article, Consumer Reports, July 1991, box, p. 465. Consumers Reports accept no advertisements.  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - ( ) Send me a free copy of your 1991 Buying Guide and The new Medicine Show book along with a no-risk trial issue. If I decide to subscribe, I’ll pay just $20 for 11 more issues (12 in all) including the April 1992 Cars issue. If you decide not to subscribe, write "Cancel" across the bill, return it, and keep the two books and trial issue as our gift. [Please allos 6-8 weeks for deliveray of trial issue and books. This rate for US only., All other countries add $6. On Canadian orders, GST included. (REG.#127047702)      4GXSO  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - Consumer Reports Subscription Department Box 51166 Boulder, CO 80323-1166  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - Consumer Reports is available online on CompuServe, Dialog, Nexis, and Prodigy, and on CD-ROM. Address inquiries to Consumers Union, Electronic Publishing, 101 Truman Ave., Yonkers, N.Y. 10703-1057  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -

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