Question:

Anyone with accounting experience or accounting knowledge can introduce the following duties in details: -Data Entry, -Bank Reconciliation, -Filing, -Payroll, -Sales Tax Reports, I just want to know if accountants use accounting softwares to deal with them. Hope you can explain those detailedly.Thank you very much!

Response:

Anyone with accounting experience or accounting knowledge can introduce the following duties in details: -Data Entry, -Bank Reconciliation, -Filing, -Payroll, -Sales Tax Reports,

Maybe what you need is to get yourself down to your local book store and get a book on basic accouting.   Also you may want to look into having an outside service do your payroll.   —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone with accounting experience or accounting knowledge can introduce the following duties in details: -Data Entry, -Bank Reconciliation, -Filing, -Payroll, -Sales Tax Reports, I just want to know if accountants use accounting softwares to deal with them.

Some do, but software costs money. Not for filing, however. Whether to use software for an operation depends on how many transactions you have to deal with. If you only have a 5 employee payroll, it isn’t worth the extra expense. If you have to pay 200 people, then it would be. I used to do a five person payroll by hand using a one-write system(pegboard) and it took me about 15 minutes. The same reasoning applies to bank recs and tax returns. Software and hardware cost money. Joe Bruno Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war) Ancient Roman Motto Visit my web page for pictures, music, and accounting services http://www.msnusers.com/Joepictures2008/shoebox.msnw

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone with accounting experience or accounting knowledge can introduce the following duties in details: -Data Entry, -Bank Reconciliation, -Filing, -Payroll, -Sales Tax Reports, I just want to know if accountants use accounting softwares to deal with them. Hope you can explain those detailedly.Thank you very much!

Some accountants do. However, software costs money. If you are working on a 5 or 6 person payroll, it would be cheaper to do it manually. If you have a 100 employee payroll, you’d want the extra speed of the software. I used to prepare a 6 person payroll using a one-write system in about 15 minutes. Joe Bruno Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war) Ancient Roman Motto Visit my web page for pictures, music, and accounting services http://www.msnusers.com/Joepictures2008/shoebox.msnw

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Question:

Good points HD, Before "retiring" into education, I spent 25 years in the mechanical trades (hvac&r). If nothing else, I’ve learned that engineers and technicians work best when they work together.  A team approach is the only one that works. I’ve earned an Associate’s, a Bachelor’s and a Masters degree, and all while working days as a technician.  It took me 25 years to do it.  None of my degrees are in engineering, but I’m glad that my colleagues’ were. They taught me plenty, and I like to flatter myself by thinking I’ve taught them a thing or two. Now I teach science and literature to high schoolers. God bless America. Bern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If both groups would realize they are needed for the successful completion of ALL projects, we’d have better, less costly, more efficient, completed ahead of time jobs. HD in NY

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For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

Not at all – its an anti-no experience rant. Unless you have a different understanding of "wet behind the ears" than I do. I agree completely with Mickey. Education is good, education plus experience is terrific, but if there’s a choice between a non-degree’d person who knows what he’s doing and a degree’d person who doesn’t, the choice is clear to me.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Disband the colleges.  Nobody needs calculus or real analysis or physics or chemistry courses.  It’s just a waste of time.  Just let the clever high school dropouts develop the new stuff. — Bob Johnson You’re missing the point Bob. No one wishes to demean the value of engineers, at least not me, and no one should be demeaning the value of technicians. Both are needed to get the job done and neither need get "huffy" with the other. The problem comes in trying to get both groups to work together. Too often the engineer lets his ego get in the way of his hearing ability and the technician lets his sarcasm towards the engineer get in the way of effective communication. If both groups would realize they are needed for the successful completion of ALL projects, we’d have better, less costly, more efficient, completed ahead of time jobs.

Good observation.  You’re maybe the first one to post with some understanding that it’s a two way street. — Bob Johnson

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Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college.

Disband the colleges.  Nobody needs calculus or real analysis or physics or chemistry courses.  It’s just a waste of time.  Just let the clever high school dropouts develop the new stuff. — Bob Johnson

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NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.

Then you shouldn’t phrase things as though education had zero value. — Bob Johnson

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NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on. Then you shouldn’t phrase things as though education had zero value. — Bob Johnson

Often, the interpretation is in the eye of the reader. Some readers see every insult they seek. Lon

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Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Disband the colleges.  Nobody needs calculus or real analysis or physics or chemistry courses.  It’s just a waste of time.  Just let the clever high school dropouts develop the new stuff. — Bob Johnson

You’re missing the point Bob. No one wishes to demean the value of engineers, at least not me, and no one should be demeaning the value of technicians. Both are needed to get the job done and neither need get "huffy" with the other. The problem comes in trying to get both groups to work together. Too often the engineer lets his ego get in the way of his hearing ability and the technician lets his sarcasm towards the engineer get in the way of effective communication. If both groups would realize they are needed for the successful completion of ALL projects, we’d have better, less costly, more efficient, completed ahead of time jobs. HD in NY

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For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything.

That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

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By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they? Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

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By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test?

An engineer. Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they?

A law school graduate. Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

A medical doctor. — D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 djosborn at aol dot com

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For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

I didn’t think so. I thought it was slightly anti educated idiot, but mostly pro successful experience. Lon

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By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test?

When I did it, you could take the EIT (Engineer in Training) exam any time.  It was recommended to us to take it just before graduation when the diverse items on the test were more fresh in our minds — the exam covered things in most of the basic courses you took over the 4 years of college.  To qualify to take the PE exam you not only have to wait, you have to get appropriate work experience, typically under a PE’s supervision. Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they?

Not a licensed lawyer. Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

Not a licensed doctor. — Bob Johnson

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For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

No it isn’t. It’s a pretty standard response of an individual who has corrected screw ups by "engineers". There are boneheads in all fields of endeavor and engineering is just one of them. A good engineer is one who listens to the technicians who have worked with the project and uses their responses in his own evaluation. Egotism results in mistakes. HD in NY

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By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they? Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

Once a Doctor has completed internship, he is a full MD. The residency requirement is for a specialty.  I know several that have never completed a residency, for various reasons, yet they are fully licensed and practice medicine. George

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One of my professors stated "that ‘an advance degree’ (one beyond high school) indicates two things, the ability to research and the abiilty to stick to a project. It doesn’t mean that the person is intelligient." This I truely must agree with. I have seen sheepskins on some of the dumbest individuals walls. And the only reason that they were in higher management positions were the ability to schmooze, lie and redirect responsibility to the benefit of his friends who promoted him. The poor hardworking honest and smart folk (who call a spade a spade, not a soil removal tool) tend to take responsibility for their mistakes and are limited otherwise in their sphere of influence. the old anarchist ps, it means that you can screw up royally and still be in charge

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they? Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

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Same argument with teachers. I have been a licensed and certifed teacher for 33 years. I taught in the public school system. I also have BS and MS degrees. To teach in the public school system – you are required to have the above. Many people teach in private schools and colleges and they are not required to have either a teaching license or an advanced degree. Some people say that good teachers are born – not trained. I would never say that people without degrees or licenses are not good teachers. Some of the best teachers in the world are unlicensed parents. Ironically, to be a parent one no longer needs a license Other people feel perfectly qualified to judge teachers and schools simply because they attended a school for 12 years.

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By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they?

Juris Doctors. Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

–

Response:

For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

Funny you didn’t include the statement I made just prior to the one you’ve included saying the degreed ME’s I worked with themselves said that most of the knowledge they needed on a daily basis didn’t come from their formal education. NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.  From your responses it appears you believe man was still living in caves until for first Engineering degreeand PE certificate was handed out. Mickey — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Same argument with teachers. I have been a licensed and certifed teacher for 33 years. I taught in the public school system. I also have BS and MS degrees. To teach in the public school system – you are required to have the above. Many people teach in private schools and colleges and they are not required to have either a teaching license or an advanced degree. Some people say that good teachers are born – not trained. I would never say that people without degrees or licenses are not good teachers. Some of the best teachers in the world are unlicensed parents. Ironically, to be a parent one no longer needs a license Other people feel perfectly qualified to judge teachers and schools simply because they attended a school for 12 years.

Teaching is, by and large, a thankless job.  That being said, I hope you are not of the stripe that stood up in a school board meeting and declared that elected school board members should only be teachers since they are the only ones who can judge teachers and schools. I don’t paint but I can judge art. I don’t write but I can judge writers. I don’t make movies but I can decide what is good or bad. — Dave

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NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.  From your responses it appears you believe man was still living in caves until for first Engineering degreeand PE certificate was handed out.

Mickey, except for a tiny minority of anklebiters, nitwits and self-absorbed fools, you’re preaching to the choir.   Anyone who knows ANYTHING about what is involved in "engineering" knows for a FACT that the vast majority of the work is done by people who do not have a PE and do not need it – even to satisfy some well-intentioned but foolhardy laws.   This thread and related ones have been kept alive by people with an obvious agenda of putting down anyone whose style or opinions they don’t like.  There is simply no substance otherwise. My advice – ignore them.   Their ilk has been around forever, standing on the sidelines and second-guessing those doing the work, intent on imposing THEIR juvenile ideas on a world they don’t begin to understand.  Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Yes – some were merely detailers (much as I was when I started out) but some were called Design Engineers and well deserved the title. Will Sill

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A technician knows all about how things dont work.  The engineer knows all about how things do work.  That is the critical difference and is responsible for all that bitching and moaning between engineers and techs…they work in different areas of behavior of the product. TS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson No it isn’t. It’s a pretty standard response of an individual who has corrected screw ups by "engineers". There are boneheads in all fields of endeavor and engineering is just one of them. A good engineer is one who listens to the technicians who have worked with the project and uses their responses in his own evaluation. Egotism results in mistakes. HD in NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.  From your responses it appears you believe man was still living in caves until for first Engineering degreeand PE certificate was handed out. Mickey, except for a tiny minority of anklebiters, nitwits and self-absorbed fools, you’re preaching to the choir.   Anyone who knows ANYTHING about what is involved in "engineering" knows for a FACT that the vast majority of the work is done by people who do not have a PE and do not need it – even to satisfy some well-intentioned but foolhardy laws.   This thread and related ones have been kept alive by people with an obvious agenda of putting down anyone whose style or opinions they don’t like.  There is simply no substance otherwise. My advice – ignore them.   Their ilk has been around forever, standing on the sidelines and second-guessing those doing the work, intent on imposing THEIR juvenile ideas on a world they don’t begin to understand.  Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Yes – some were merely detailers (much as I was when I started out) but some were called Design Engineers and well deserved the title. Will Sill

Will, You remind me of two situations in the distant past.  First is a EE that was sent up to Thule to run the power generation system.  It didn’t take long to determine that he had NO practical knowledge at all and not much on the engineering side.  Why, he didn’t know how to wire in a light switch without shorting out the whole system.   Second situation was about a year later when I was a liaison on the BMEWS system. This required many meetings with the contractors, RCA and Western Electric.  One of them always brought a room full of degreed engineers AND one "technician" who was an old ham radio operator.  More than once I watched the "engineers" tearing their hair out trying to determine how to rectify a problem in the system. Meanwhile the "technician", who was sitting quietly in the corner, did some scribbling on a scrap of paper and then presented his solution, which was usually simple, to the point, and what was most important, it worked!!! On the other side, there are engineers that have made great gains for the society. I recently found that my brother, who had a PHD in Physics but was not a registered engineer, was the one who invented the thyristor as well as some 15 other patented items. For those that don’t know, the thyristor was the bridge between the transistors and the integrated circuit we know today. Conversely, I have had dealings with many "civil engineers" primarily those that are involved in highways and bridges that have no common sense at all.  They are the reason so many of the highways are in the shape they are in today.  I know that there must be some engineers somewhere that know how to design and build a bridge transition because I have run across some that are smooth. The majority are not… I could go on but, I digress… George

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Mid, You assume way, way too much.  I have a college education so, this is not my personal beef. My position is that anyone who thinks that a piece of paper magically empowers them to do ANYTHING, is a fool! Achievers of all stripes, have, throughout history, done great and wonderful things and have never had a degree as many times, there were not colleges or universities from which to obtain a degree. I would surely advocate getting a degree rather than not but, to think that enables one to do engineering or design work is foolish. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As simple question to hobdbcgv, cass, will sill and the other bashers against the value of having a technical degree from an accredited university; do you have kids? If they are young, are you encouraging them to get a formal education? If they are post-high school age, are they in an engineering program or have they completed engineering school? All I ask is that you show some leadership and try to pass along the value of learning. I could care less if you have a chip on your shoulder about not having a formal education. A non-degreed person smart enough to perform some engineering tasks will almost always tell you that they would be better off with an engineering degree. You can find some recent examples, but most of them are programmers that have done well. As I tell my kids, a degree doesn’t guarantee you anything, it just improves your odds.

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That is correct.  Long ago, the ham license was a credential of meaning. Today, sadly, it is not. You see, a lot of sheeple and other neer-do-wells, found the requirements of the license too hard so, they whined and stomped their hooves and the F.C.C. mistakenly listened to them and now ‘ham radio’ is more of a wasteland, comparatively. Still, it gives achievers a license to experiment and invent new methods. Cass – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Dave, In addition Will lies about his "engineering" background. His only exposure to engineering was way back when he was an entry level microwave technician who worked for engineers. He cites his "ham" license as evidence of his technical ability in electronics. He actually believes that this is a REAL credential. John In his day an amateur ticket was a real credential of electronic expertise. By the by, dear old Uncle Sam is stupid about engineering.  To design or repair radio transmitting circuits, he cares crap about a PE certificate, but he does require an FCC license. To look down your nose at hams is to discount many design concepts and break-through ideas developed by those ‘hams’. This has gone WAY beyond calling Will out for his shortcomings and turned into a vendetta. — Dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mid, You assume way, way too much.  I have a college education so, this is not my personal beef. My position is that anyone who thinks that a piece of paper magically empowers them to do ANYTHING, is a fool! Achievers of all stripes, have, throughout history, done great and wonderful things and have never had a degree as many times, there were not colleges or universities from which to obtain a degree. I would surely advocate getting a degree rather than not but, to think that enables one to do engineering or design work is foolish. Cass

Have to 2nd this. Spent a considerable about of time the last several yrs of work fixing design mistakes by Degreed Engineers that didn’t fully understand the materials and manufacturing processes they were using. Can’t speak for all areas of engineering but the one I working in, I asked my peers to estimate what percent of the knowledge they needed to do their daily design tasks came from formal education.  Common response was a lot under 50%.  For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. Mickey — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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says… Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers. I guess 40+ years of experience would get me a a PE in GA?

Yep – Just like 40+ years of being a Sanitary Engineer would get you a PE in GA.    You gotta be kidding, because if that’s true there must be a lot of PE’s in GA that are just experienced but not necessarily tested for knowledge. In most states, the PE exam is quite rigorous.  I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.

Will – Who do you think you are fooling? A few times here in the past you have had a lapse of judgement and tried to get involved in an engineering discussion.   It was obvious to all that you were totally clueless and you were laughed out of Dodge!   You were so transparent regarding your lack of any in depth engineering knowledge that you were pitiful. Lately you have been smart enough to avoid the technical engineering discussions and not demonstrate your total ignorance.   Good decision! It would be kinda hard for you to do "a lot of refresher" on subjects that you have never studied and have never known or understood! Now the answer to my first question: The only people here that you are fooling here are those as clueless and ignorant as you. Don’t even waste your time trying to run your BS on the knowledgeable and rational folks here.   It will NOT work! Your delusions and hallucinations have gotten the best of you! John S who knows recognizes phonies like "Toilet Paper Engineers" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications?

Where do you get those ludicrous questions? No one has even suggested that you do not need to know anything about engineering to be an expert on winterizing, blackwater, towing, or most other RV subjects. But, in many discussions here Will has lied and cited his 40+ years of engineering experience as credentials to add validity to some of his ridiculous opinions. And, in the past he has slipped up and tried to get into technical engineering discussions here.   He then exposed himself to be a totally clueless clown who lacked any real knowledge in the engineering field.  He was laughed out of those discussions by all involved.  He only fools those who are as clueless as he! Thus, notice that he generally (wisely) avoids technical discussions that require engineering knowledge.   He obviously knows that he is a liar who knows virtually nothing about engineering and would again demonstrate and prove his ignorance if he opens his mouth. John S who is tired of this ridiculous discussion.

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But, in many discussions here Will has lied and cited his 40+ years of engineering experience as credentials to add validity to some of his ridiculous opinions.

His ‘ridiculous opinions’ are just as valuable as other ‘ridiculous opinions’ that show up here.  Most of the time it is hard to tell ‘ridiculus opinions’ from opinions from statements that may actually be of use.   The thought that only those with engineering credentials always have valid opinions, is a bunch of bull!  I know many engineers with degrees and years of experience that are only knowledgable in area in which they worked.  The trick is to be smart enough to know what you don’t know. John S who is tired of this ridiculous discussion.

Obviously you are not tired of this discussion or you wouldn’t have posted you opinion or ‘ridiculous opinion’ whichever it may be. Ron Who has lot of opinions and probably some ‘ridiculous opinions’

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But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan…..

Fact is, every state I know of licenses engineers. No license = no engineer, degree or not. … and no, I don’t have one.

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The Masters in Accounting is not a requirement, XX number of hours in specific areas is–accounting, auditing, business law, etc.   The hours sometimes equal the degree. RVC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe the reason that certified accountants, certified physicians, certifed pharmacists, certified engineers, etc., are required to have experience, whereas attorneys are not, is that attorneys are not as likely to be called as expert witnesses to much of anything, therefore practical experience is not necessary.  Besides, even a jury of peers would be unlikely to accept the testimony of an attorney as truth <grinz. BTW, in many states, FL is one, a person with a Master’s degree in Accountancy may sit for the CPA exam, and presuming a passing grade, become a CPA without working even a day in govt or industry — that’s how they get professors! Pete

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Chas, Where did you get your degree, if you have one? Where did you take your bar?  I have asked this over and over and while not obligated to answer, you seem to be running and hiding from that last question.  It figures. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill Will, I’ve never denied that. My point regarding competence (as opposed to legally required credentials for certain activities) is simply that if you both (a) disclaim credentials and (b) don’t explain the basis of your position, then I have no way of knowing whether or not you know what you’re talking about. CharlieG

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This forum is not the place for this crap.  Go showoff your Manhood somewhere else.  Besides Cass, from what I have seen, most people here think you’re worthless.  I think you’re a jerk that is pushing the limits of your electronic thesaurus. See you around big guy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chas, Where did you get your degree, if you have one? Where did you take your bar?  I have asked this over and over and while not obligated to answer, you seem to be running and hiding from that last question.  It figures. Cass But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill Will, I’ve never denied that. My point regarding competence (as opposed to legally required credentials for certain activities) is simply that if you both (a) disclaim credentials and (b) don’t explain the basis of your position, then I have no way of knowing whether or not you know what  you’re talking about. CharlieG

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications? Sheesh. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress

No, Bob, you don’t need to discount everything Will says just because he doesn’t have a degree. But when people who seem to know what they are talking about argue vociferously about something and I’m trying to decide whose advice to follow, it’s helpful to know the basis for what they are saying. Maybe this example from a previous post of mine would help you understand where I’m coming from. I said: Take Chris Bryant as a different example. AFAIK, Chris has never claimed any particular credentials, but he consistently gives thoughtful advice that is responsive to the specific issue raised and is obviously based on his personal, professional experience. He never hesitates to say he doesn’t know something or hasn’t enough experience with an issue to be sure of his conclusions, but overall his posts practically drip with expertise. I would never hesitate to follow Chris’s technical advice unless someone else provided a pretty good explanation of why he was wrong in a particular

case. Then, addressing Will, I said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You, OTOH, are well-known for dismissing the thoroughly discussed opinions and conclusions of credentialed engineers as hooey based on your asserted vast experience, while explicitly disclaiming relevant credentials ("I have no degrees"), not claiming other relevant credentials, and not explaining the basis for your opinion, and for dismissing as "bafflegab" any statement of fact or opinion with which you disagree, whether or not you have or claim any expertise on the subject. In contrast to Chris’s directly responsive and individually crafted advice, you post canned spiels on a few subjects (e.g., winterization, tire inflation, and towing ratings) that SEEM to be generally sound, if sometimes somewhat imprecise or not directly responsive to the question, but how are those (such as me) who lack the relevant expertise to judge whether these are the collected wisdom of someone with substantial expertise or simply rote recitations of something you picked up somewhere else if you disclaim credentials and provide no other basis for judging your expertise. Even a throwaway line like "based on my ___ years experience doing [insert brief description of experience relevant to the subject at hand]" would improve your credibility immensely.

I also noted in another post: 2 examples may help make my point. You clearly take a conservative approach to tow ratings. Without knowing whether you are competent, I can feel fairly confident that if I follow your advice I will be safer than if I follow the advice of those who are less conservative on this point. OTOH, my own research suggests that your position on inflation pressure for LT and RV (not P) tires MAY be less safe than David Osborne’s. When you call him a bozo or idiot but do not either provide credentials (as he also has not) or explain how he is misreading the materials he quotes, how am I (or anyone else) to assess which is the safer approach?

When Will is the only one who addresses a particular RV-related topic, or when most or all of those who do agree with him, I am inclined to think he probably knows what he is talking about, and I’m inclined to follow his advice unless it is inconsistent with my own experience. But when Will disagrees with others who also seem to know what they are talking about (and Will seems to get into more arguments than most of the posters in this NG), then credentials or the lack thereof provide a valuable tool for determining who to believe. The same principle applies to anyone, but Will is much more prone than other posters to simply call those with whom he disagrees idiots, rather than explaining why he thinks they are wrong and he is right. He’s also the only one in this NG (except Cass, whose advice I wouldn’t take on any subject) to accuse me of being ignorant of legal issues with which I have over 20 years of experience, which leads me to hold him to a higher standard than others. CharlieG

Response:

Charlie, To me, you are the epitome of a scumbag, ambulance-chasing scoundrel of a lawyer who gives the profession their well-earned name. You discount anything that is not proven to you with pen to paper and therefore, everything else is just cannon-fodder. You were wrong about the patent and didn’t have enough guts to admit it. Folks such as yourself, sicken me and, in my opinion, are very, very, very much what is wrong with and ails this country. Also, only the most vile of an egoist tries to brag about his being an attorney by putting it in your sig. line ad nauseum. Keep this up and I won’t mince words. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications? Sheesh. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress No, Bob, you don’t need to discount everything Will says just because he doesn’t have a degree. But when people who seem to know what they are talking about argue vociferously about something and I’m trying to decide whose advice to follow, it’s helpful to know the basis for what they are saying. Maybe this example from a previous post of mine would help you understand where I’m coming from. I said: Take Chris Bryant as a different example. AFAIK, Chris has never claimed any particular credentials, but he consistently gives thoughtful advice that is responsive to the specific issue raised and is obviously based on his personal, professional experience. He never hesitates to say he doesn’t know something or hasn’t enough experience with an issue to be sure of his conclusions, but overall his posts practically drip with expertise. I would never hesitate to follow Chris’s technical advice unless someone else provided a pretty good explanation of why he was wrong in a particular case. Then, addressing Will, I said: You, OTOH, are well-known for dismissing the thoroughly discussed opinions and conclusions of credentialed engineers as hooey based on your asserted vast experience, while explicitly disclaiming relevant credentials ("I have no degrees"), not claiming other relevant credentials, and not explaining the basis for your opinion, and for dismissing as "bafflegab" any statement of fact or opinion with which you disagree, whether or not you have or claim any expertise on the subject. In contrast to Chris’s directly responsive and individually crafted advice, you post canned spiels on a few subjects (e.g., winterization, tire inflation, and towing ratings) that SEEM to be generally sound, if sometimes somewhat imprecise or not directly responsive to the question, but how are those (such as me) who lack the relevant expertise to judge whether these are the collected wisdom of someone with substantial expertise or simply rote recitations of something you picked up somewhere else if you disclaim credentials and provide no other basis for judging your expertise. Even a throwaway line like "based on my ___ years experience doing [insert brief description of experience relevant to the subject at hand]" would improve your credibility immensely. I also noted in another post: 2 examples may help make my point. You clearly take a conservative approach to tow ratings. Without knowing whether you are competent, I can feel fairly confident that if I follow your advice I will be safer than if I follow the advice of those who are less conservative on this point. OTOH, my own research suggests that your position on inflation pressure for LT and RV (not P) tires MAY be less safe than David Osborne’s. When you call him a bozo or idiot but do not either provide credentials (as he also has not) or explain how he is misreading the materials he quotes, how am I (or anyone else) to assess which is the safer approach? When Will is the only one who addresses a particular RV-related topic, or when most or all of those who do agree with him, I am inclined to think he probably knows what he is talking about, and I’m inclined to follow his advice unless it is inconsistent with my own experience. But when Will disagrees with others who also seem to know what they are talking about (and Will seems to get into more arguments than most of the posters in this NG), then credentials or the lack thereof provide a valuable tool for determining who to believe. The same principle applies to anyone, but Will is much more prone than other posters to simply call those with whom he disagrees idiots, rather than explaining why he thinks they are wrong and he is right. He’s also the only one in this NG (except Cass, whose advice I wouldn’t take on any subject) to accuse me of being ignorant of legal issues with which I have over 20 years of experience, which leads me to hold him to a higher standard than others. CharlieG

Response:

But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill

Will, I’ve never denied that. My point regarding competence (as opposed to legally required credentials for certain activities) is simply that if you both (a) disclaim credentials and (b) don’t explain the basis of your position, then I have no way of knowing whether or not you know what you’re talking about. CharlieG

Response:

So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications?

No, Bob, I don’t think that’s necessary at all.  But, with the exception of Charlie and Wilf, I don’t remember anyone mentioning thay they posess any special qualifications in any particular field relating to any of the subjects discussed here.  Most people in this group write about their own experiences, and the conclusions they’ve drawn from them. It appears that Wilf, on the other hand,  chose to back up his assertions (and I don’t know, nor do I care, what the particular subject was) by claiming that he is "an engineer", i.e., implying that his assertions or opinions  are superior to those without such qualifications. While there is a  lot of agreement among the contributors on a lot of the subjects dicussed here, that’s not always the case.  One subject that comes to mind is synthetic oil, where Will’s opinion differed from most of the others. Instead of citing personal experiences or data from tests as others did, Will expected this opinion to be accepted as more qualified because he is, according to his claim, "an engineer" when in fact he is not.  It was merely a job title, non-transferable from one employer to another. A lot of us have done some "engineering", even if it only consists of revamping storage space inside an RV, but I don’t remember anyone claiming to be "engineer" because of it. KGP

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I believe the reason that certified accountants, certified physicians, certifed pharmacists, certified engineers, etc., are required to have experience, whereas attorneys are not, is that attorneys are not as likely to be called as expert witnesses to much of anything, therefore practical experience is not necessary.  Besides, even a jury of peers would be unlikely to accept the testimony of an attorney as truth <grinz. BTW, in many states, FL is one, a person with a Master’s degree in Accountancy may sit for the CPA exam, and presuming a passing grade, become a CPA without working even a day in govt or industry — that’s how they get professors! Pete

Response:

So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications?

OK, I’m a PE so I got to chime in…. In most states, the law prohibits you from offering engineering services to the public unless you are a licensed engineer. Now, no one is prohibited from spouting off on any topic they choose, including engineering. You are prohibited from saying "hire me and I’ll engineer your new LP Gas system."  You can tell everyone how you think it should be done, but you can’t call yourself an engineer and offer to design it for a fee. I think few states would go after anyone for calling themselves an engineer unless they advertised their services for sale. You can call yourself an engineer in a company, and you don’t need a license, since you are not offering those services to the public. Licensing requirements vary; in most states you need a 4 year engineering degree, 4 years "acceptable" experience, recommendations from other PEs, and you need to pass both the FE and PE exams. -Dondo

Response:

But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong.

Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill

Response:

Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer.

So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications? Sheesh. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

My Sanitary Engineer seems to have it regardless of what you say. MV — This mail checked and found to be free of any virus.

Response:

Please don’t feed the trolls. bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it. Give it a rest.  There are multiple professions and occupations that use the title ‘engineer’ which do not require a PE license.  As was discussed, PE’s have attempted to co-opt the word just as physicians have attempted to co-opt the word doctor. — Dave

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it. My Sanitary Engineer seems to have it regardless of what you say. MV — This mail checked and found to be free of any virus.

I tried to explain all this to a highway saftey engineer who was directing traffic around a pothole, but he spoke only spanish.

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

Idiot, baby troll. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers. — CharlieG NOT the standard "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer: I AM a lawyer, but the contents of this post are intended for informational purposes only and not as legal advice. If you have a legal dispute or want legal advice related to anything mentioned in this post, you should consult an attorney who is licensed to practice in your state.

Response:

Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers.

I guess 40+ years of experience would get me a a PE in GA?    You gotta be kidding, because if that’s true there must be a lot of PE’s in GA that are just experienced but not necessarily tested for knowledge. In most states, the PE exam is quite rigorous.  I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

Response:

I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

You mean the Bar Exams where 90% of those who take the test pass?  I thought the PE test was supposed to be hard! <gr Ron Who passed the CPA test where the pass rate only runs 15% or so.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers. I guess 40+ years of experience would get me a a PE in GA?    You gotta be kidding, because if that’s true there must be a lot of PE’s in GA that are just experienced but not necessarily tested for knowledge. In most states, the PE exam is quite rigorous.  I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

In GA, 8 years of satisfactory experience qualifies one to take the EiT exam, and 7 more years qualifies one to take the PE exam. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I would bet that most states’ laws are similar. I have no idea what the licensing board considers to be satisfactory experience. Given what PEs do vs. what lawyers do, I would hope that the PE exam is tougher than the bar exam. In most cases, lawyers’ errors are not life-threatening. I would expect that almost anyone, no matter how competent, would need refresher study to pass most professional exams. Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. CharlieG

Response:

I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill You mean the Bar Exams where 90% of those who take the test pass?  I thought the PE test was supposed to be hard! <gr Ron Who passed the CPA test where the pass rate only runs 15% or so.

I have to agree that the bar exam typically is less rigorous than most other professional exams. And the lawyers’ guild, unlike the engineers’ guild, the physicians’ guild, and (I believe) the accountants’ guild (and probably others), lets anyone with a law degree take the exam and become a full-fledged lawyer with NO requirement of supervised experience first. Part of the reason we have too many lawyers with more imagination than good sense. CharlieG

Response:

Question:

Monday’s Wall Street Journal had a very large story about potential situations re: Anderson (front page column 6)

– — MSNBC online has a story at — http://www.msnbc.com/news/722276.asp?cp1=1#BODY which still talks in — terms of possibilities regarding a Deloitte merger and a settlement with — DOJ. — — –Bloomburg Online has a story (date &time stamp: 3/11 18:00) at –http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1… — –The headline reads, "Andersen in Sale Talks With Ernst & Young, –Deloitte." — –Regards, –Bill

Response:

CNBC is reporting that Arthur Anderson will merge with Deloit & Touche. Also Fedex will take their business elsewhere.

MSNBC online has a story at http://www.msnbc.com/news/722276.asp?cp1=1#BODY which still talks in terms of possibilities regarding a Deloitte merger and a settlement with DOJ. By the way, it’s AndersEn. Regards, Bill

Response:

MSNBC online has a story at http://www.msnbc.com/news/722276.asp?cp1=1#BODY which still talks in terms of possibilities regarding a Deloitte merger and a settlement with DOJ.

Bloomburg Online has a story (date &time stamp: 3/11 18:00) at http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20Financial%20News&s1… The headline reads, "Andersen in Sale Talks With Ernst & Young, Deloitte." Regards, Bill

Response:

My first thought, since Andersen was so quick to present a settlement offer to Justice and they are doing this offer to Touche is (pause) there is another boot ready to drop. I also note, that as far as the audit community goes, Andersen isn’t (relatively speaking) damaged goods.  Just another incident to remind me how far out of step I am with accountants in public practice. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CNBC is reporting that Arthur Anderson will merge with Deloit & Touche. Also Fedex will take their business elsewhere. "It’s God’s job to sort out what to do with terrorists.    It’s our job to deliver them to God. " I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

CNBC is reporting that Arthur Anderson will merge with Deloit & Touche. Also Fedex will take their business elsewhere. "It’s God’s job to sort out what to do with terrorists.    It’s our job to deliver them to God. " I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

True, My newsletter from Woodcraft indicates they will try to convert most company stores to franchises, gets that personal commitment from the Owner/Manager….. Bob S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have any scoop on something I heard yesterday.  It appears that Woodcraft is offering franchise opportunities.  Does anyone know if this is a trend?  Are they going to conver their company owned stores?  Where are the new stores?  I’ve heard that one of them will be in Tulsa…. — Chuck Rush Pond Rushes, http://members.home.net/crush11 Anti-spam note – to reply, remove the _nospam from the address. Nonne scis sibilare?  Labris compositis, perfla. You know how to whistle, don’t you?  Just put your lips together and blow.

Response:

How about Schlotzsky’s Deli ("Funny Name, Serious Sandwich")? They even advertise it on their napkins! Chuck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I think the franchise thing started only about 5-6 years ago.  I checked into it.  $200,000 fluid, minimum investment required.  I couldn’t raise that much (comfortably) so passed.  I still think with the right location and crew, a lot of money is to be made. Anyone have any scoop on something I heard yesterday.  It appears that Woodcraft is offering franchise opportunities.  Does anyone know if this is a trend?  Are they going to conver their company owned stores?  Where are the new stores?  I’ve heard that one of them will be in Tulsa….

Response:

Well, I think the franchise thing started only about 5-6 years ago.  I checked into it.  $200,000 fluid, minimum investment required.  I couldn’t raise that much (comfortably) so passed.  I still think with the right location and crew, a lot of money is to be made.

Unfortunately, often that money is made by the franchisor, not the individual franchisees. For someone who has the know how to run a successful business, there are excellent franchise operations but it is a very risky endeavour and anyone thinking about it needs lots of excellent legal, accounting and business management advice BEFORE making any commitments. If someone is going to invest several hundred thousand dollars and risk losing their life’s savings, it’s worth a few thousand dollars to get the best possible advice. — Regards, Benoit Evans

Response:

As far as I know, all Woodcraft stores are franchises. Their web site, and the cover of their catalogs always say as much. Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have any scoop on something I heard yesterday.  It appears that Woodcraft is offering franchise opportunities.  Does anyone know if this is a trend?  Are they going to conver their company owned stores?  Where are the new stores?  I’ve heard that one of them will be in Tulsa…. — Chuck Rush Pond Rushes, http://members.home.net/crush11 Anti-spam note – to reply, remove the _nospam from the address. Nonne scis sibilare?  Labris compositis, perfla. You know how to whistle, don’t you?  Just put your lips together and blow.

Response:

Well, I think the franchise thing started only about 5-6 years ago.  I checked into it.  $200,000 fluid, minimum investment required.  I couldn’t raise that much (comfortably) so passed.  I still think with the right location and crew, a lot of money is to be made. Phil — Living In The Woods of Beautiful Bonney Lake Washington Visit My Web Site www.madrona.bizhosting.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have any scoop on something I heard yesterday.  It appears that Woodcraft is offering franchise opportunities.  Does anyone know if this is a trend?  Are they going to conver their company owned stores?  Where are the new stores?  I’ve heard that one of them will be in Tulsa…. — Chuck Rush Pond Rushes, http://members.home.net/crush11 Anti-spam note – to reply, remove the _nospam from the address. Nonne scis sibilare?  Labris compositis, perfla. You know how to whistle, don’t you?  Just put your lips together and blow.

Response:

I know the owner of our local Woodcraft store.  He didn’t elaborate on the investment, but said it’s a 5 year commitment before you’re "comfortable". Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I think the franchise thing started only about 5-6 years ago.  I checked into it.  $200,000 fluid, minimum investment required.  I couldn’t raise that much (comfortably) so passed.  I still think with the right location and crew, a lot of money is to be made. Phil — Living In The Woods of Beautiful Bonney Lake Washington Visit My Web Site www.madrona.bizhosting.com Anyone have any scoop on something I heard yesterday.  It appears that Woodcraft is offering franchise opportunities.  Does anyone know if this is a trend?  Are they going to conver their company owned stores?  Where are the new stores?  I’ve heard that one of them will be in Tulsa…. — Chuck Rush Pond Rushes, http://members.home.net/crush11 Anti-spam note – to reply, remove the _nospam from the address. Nonne scis sibilare?  Labris compositis, perfla. You know how to whistle, don’t you?  Just put your lips together and blow.

Response:

Anyone have any scoop on something I heard yesterday.  It appears that Woodcraft is offering franchise opportunities.  Does anyone know if this is a trend?  Are they going to conver their company owned stores?  Where are the new stores?  I’ve heard that one of them will be in Tulsa…. — Chuck Rush Pond Rushes, http://members.home.net/crush11 Anti-spam note – to reply, remove the _nospam from the address. Nonne scis sibilare?  Labris compositis, perfla. You know how to whistle, don’t you?  Just put your lips together and blow.

Response:

Anyone have any scoop on something I heard yesterday.  It appears that Woodcraft is offering franchise opportunities.  Does anyone know if this is a trend?  Are they going to conver their company owned stores?  Where are the new stores?  I’ve heard that one of them will be in Tulsa….

They have always done franchising, or at least have been at it for quite a while.  Check their home page and click on "Franchise Information".  They give a name to call or e-mail for information.  http://www.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/assets/html/homepage.asp

Response:

Question:

any help on sage accounting package  sites/newsgroups ?

Response:

Try http://www.sota.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any help on sage accounting package  sites/newsgroups ?

Response:

Question:

Hi,   I’m recently separated and getting a divorce. I’m in my late thirties and I need some career counseling. I want to go back to school, but I’m unsure what to major in (preferably something that has a high income!). Is there some kind of career counseling for adults that is objective? I’m wanting to find out what my strengths are–maybe some type of test like they give in high school. Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Deb D

I knew someone who got a divorce and went to court reporting school. Last I heard she was making about $100,000 a year.   Victoria Lee

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Hi,    I’m recently separated and getting a divorce. I’m in my late thirties and I need some career counseling. I want to go back to school, but I’m unsure what to major in (preferably something that has a high income!). Is there some kind of career counseling for adults that is objective? I’m wanting to find out what my strengths are–maybe some type of test like they give in high school. Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Deb D

Dear Deb, Most colleges will happily sit down with you and go over different methods they use to help people come up with what field of study they should go into, and ways of finding out what you enjoy doing, and what your strengths and weaknesses are. Last summer I went to a career counseling center, not at a college. They are just listed in the Yellow Pages. I did get a reference for this one, though. I took the Myers-Briggs test. I also took another test which I can’t remember. Some of the information was useful(costly too). It matched my skills, likes and dislikes with professions that matched. It also showed me the type of people that go into these professions. Most of the results I wasn’t surprised at. You can also answer some of the questions so that the results can come out a certain way. Mine did to a certain degree, but it also pointed out different careers that I had never thought of. best of luck to you, Deborah

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Hi,    I’m recently separated and getting a divorce. I’m in my late thirties and I need some career counseling. I want to go back to school, but I’m unsure what to major in (preferably something that has a high income!). Is there some kind of career counseling for adults that is objective? I’m wanting to find out what my strengths are–maybe some type of test like they give in high school. Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

Hi, Deb: I know this is going to sound like a bad deja vu from "the Graduate", but "computers!".  I’m a computer professor and have been counseling students for about 8 years.  The cool thing about computers is that you no longer have to be a geek to have a career in them.  If you like math and logical thinking, that’s traditional and you’d do great.  But if you don’t, and you like art/music/design you can design web sites.  Virtually any hobby or skill you like (accounting, weaving, community support, scuba diving, etc.) you can turn into a computer career as a liaison between the techies and the "business" folks.  The key skills are learning, listening, interpreting, and communicating.  My undergrads are getting $40,000 with no experience and up to $55,000 with experience.  The skills are portable, you rarely ever work with hazardous material (some think the energy coming from computer screens may be hazardous), you usually get to have a choice of jobs (huge labor shortage), Dilbert becomes hilarious, etc. Advertisement over.  Basically, the point is that if you’re willing to do the training, you can have a well paid, portable, consistently highly ranked job using computers that won’t require you to be a techie.  I’d be happy to chat with you about this, either here or email me directly at Good luck! DaveM P.S. After rereading your note, I see you’re in your late 30s.  I’m seeing more and more undergrads in their 30s and 40s.  If you already have an undergrad, you may also be able to get a Masters in Information Systems. They make even more money ($60,000+)!

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Contact the counseling or admissions department of a college.  They usually do have an interest test of some type.  Most colleges charge a fee for the processing of the test.  It used to be about $200 a few years ago.  Kate

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Deb, Contact your local college and see what they have to offer.  Good Luck! Daisy Visit the ASD "Who’s Who" Web page at: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Cape/6475/ To include yourself send picture and brief biography to: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,   I’m recently separated and getting a divorce. I’m in my late thirties and I need some career counseling. I want to go back to school, but I’m unsure what to major in (preferably something that has a high income!). Is there some kind of career counseling for adults that is objective? I’m wanting to find out what my strengths are–maybe some type of test like they give in high school. Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Deb D

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Hi,    I’m recently separated and getting a divorce. I’m in my late thirties and I need some career counseling. I want to go back to school, but I’m unsure what to major in (preferably something that has a high income!). Is there some kind of career counseling for adults that is objective? I’m wanting to find out what my strengths are–maybe some type of test like they give in high school. Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Deb D

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Look into pharmacy school. In retail you could make 75,000 a year…to start! (fresh outta school) just a thought Heather – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi,   I’m recently separated and getting a divorce. I’m in my late thirties and I need some career counseling. I want to go back to school, but I’m unsure what to major in (preferably something that has a high income!). Is there some kind of career counseling for adults that is objective? I’m wanting to find out what my strengths are–maybe some type of test like they give in high school. Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Deb D

ICQ# 24665637

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Question:

Are you familiar with BusinessVisions?  http://www.businessvision.com/ If the main program is insufficient for your organization, you could customize the system by using  BusinessVision Connect! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Can anyone tell me of the specific criteria that should be looked at for a multinational accounting package?What are the best systems you have implemented/audited etc and that provide drill down in G/L detail etc? Has anyone worked with Geac Financials? Thanks

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Take a look at Navision Financials.  It is a system with full multinational capability.  Thier international web site is at www.navision.com. The U.S. Site is at www.navision-us.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Founded in 1984, Navision Software a/s is a leading developer of    innovative accounting and business management solutions. Navision    Software has more than 28,500 installations worldwide in 75 countries,    and in 17 different languages. Navision Software sells its solutions    through a worldwide network of Navision Solution Centers, staffed with    certified professionals dedicated to providing customized solutions,    training, support and service. Among Navision Software’s clients are    Bang & Olufsen A/S, adidas AG, Diners Club Nordic, Time Manager,    Nestl

Question:

You should look at Garpac( www.garpac.com) – I have heard that it is wonderful but have never seen it. Their web site has very limited info. There are a many others, from packages which are add ons to MAS 90 to those who offer complete systems from production to sales. Most of them unix based.  IBM also has a presence in this market. You should look at Bobbin Magazine (Bobbin.com) which has reviewed some apparel packages in the past. Good Luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a client who is beginning to look at accounting and order entry packages to run his business. It must support the apparel industry (skus have colors, sizes, for men, women, children).  Any ideas?

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I have a client who is beginning to look at accounting and order entry packages to run his business. It must support the apparel industry (skus have colors, sizes, for men, women, children).  Any ideas?

David, In response to your posting below, we have a piece of software that we have designed for the apparel industry that seems to be what you are looking for.  I would welcome the opportunity to speak with you further and I can be reached at 212-686-3845. Thank you, David Goldin David Goldin Media Connection of New York, Inc. 443 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 212-686-3845 http://www.mcny.com

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I have a client who is beginning to look at accounting and order entry packages to run his business. It must support the apparel industry (skus have colors, sizes, for men, women, children).  Any ideas?

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You’ll want a package that supports the use of "size/color grids".  Only thing is, most of these are retail packages, where the retail side of the transaction is per each, but the purchasing side is by "size/color run". I’m inferring, perhaps incorrectly, that your client is a wholesaler, and not retailer, of apparel?  If this is the case, you’ll need a package that can manipulate stock in size/color runs on both sides of the transaction, I’d guess. If you’re looking for retail/POS, email me back & I’ll make some suggestions…. David Ray CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a client who is beginning to look at accounting and order entry packages to run his business. It must support the apparel industry (skus have colors, sizes, for men, women, children).  Any ideas?

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Question:

You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the only one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and see how HE really feels about the practice. Just the facts, ma’am.

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You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the only one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and see how HE really feels about the practice. Just the facts, ma’am.

What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to. Arnold

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You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the only one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and see how HE really feels about the practice. Just the facts, ma’am. What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to. Arnold

Well then Let’s all get drunk and go naked let’s all get drunk and go naked let’s all get drunk and go naked and lie in a great big pile! hammer after shelton

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What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to.

           Where there is no belief, there is no blasphemy.                      –Salman Rushdie in The Satanic Verses

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What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to.            Where there is no belief, there is no blasphemy.                      –Salman Rushdie in The Satanic Verses

The nature of God is not a knowable thing although looking for God in nature has its merits.  As for human behavior, what we are to answer to may be nothing more than the good in one another collectively–the person answers to the community, and the community to the person.  It is in the nature of democratic governments articulate in law the voice of the many who contribute to the system.  Here in the land of godless capitalism, and Bill Gates, democracy has been skewed by the enormous amounts of money involved in the rendering of those laws as well as their debate in the courts after their institution. I’m happy to answer to God and my fellow man–I think the leaders are more worried about their accountants.  Of course, ignoring the accountants, and, these days, attempting to temper capitalism–the intemperate forces of which hold global sway–makes it all the more difficult to address either God or man.  Just ask any Korean businessman or politician you happen to know. //Jim

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What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to.

What happens is that we then have much more reason to be nice to each other: If you kill a man and he goes to "a better place", then so what?  You’ve simply hurried him through this miserable existence.  But if he simply ends when he dies, then by killing him you have taken from him everything he has or ever could have. If your society persecutes members of one group, and makes their lives miserable for a few short years, what is that compared to "an eternity of bliss".  But if there is no eternal afterlife, you take their entire *existence* and make it miserable; now that’s *cruel*. — Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always. OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265 Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers’ Ass’n, Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe & Kayak Ass’n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass’n, ACA, and AWA Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type in that smiley-face emoticon. Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock’n'Roll.

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:You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions :to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the nly one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and :see how HE really feels about the practice. I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed! :Just the facts, ma’am. I’ve never encountered a Bible thumper really interested in facts.  

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I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!

        Charlie, you can’t hardly find a deeper non-believer than me. But there’s a line, and its called blasphemy, and crossing it flippantly is philistinish enough in its own right much less doing so in a vulgar and unnecessary way. tgb

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I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!    Charlie, you can’t hardly find a deeper non-believer than me. But there’s a line, and its called blasphemy, and crossing it flippantly is philistinish enough in its own right much less doing so in a vulgar and unnecessary way. tgb

I have to agree with TGB here that is way over ANY civil line of behavior. I may not be a christain but I don’t find it in the least proper to say something so vile about something held so holy by so many others. IT ranks up there with saying they want to use your Mother for target practice and your Sister to relieve their needs… Try to exercise a little bit of common decency will ya? DAF

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I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!    Charlie, you can’t hardly find a deeper non-believer than me. But there’s a line, and its called blasphemy, and crossing it flippantly is philistinish enough in its own right much less doing so in a vulgar and unnecessary way.

Well apparently you CAN find deeper non-believers than you!  If you’re such a non-believer, why this worrying about blasphemy?  Unless, of course, you are objecting to the literary value of the book in which case the same would be true of using Wuthering Heights or War and Peace as TP. I personally side with Charles. another Charles

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Hey, Chuck.  When you get to hell, do me a favor and say hello to my ex-wife. :-^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions :to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the nly one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and :see how HE really feels about the practice. I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed! :Just the facts, ma’am. I’ve never encountered a Bible thumper really interested in facts.  

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I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!

I really doubt that there’s enough paper, or soap and water, to ‘clean you up’ good. — CANOE NORTH! Rick Etter http://www.bright.net/~retter Step outside.  The graphics are AMAZING!!

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In response to my chiding one Charlie for blasphemy for talking about Well apparently you CAN find deeper non-believers than you!  If you’re such a non-believer, why this worrying about blasphemy?  Unless, of course, you are objecting to the literary value of the book in which case the same would be true of using Wuthering Heights or War and Peace as TP. I personally side with Charles.

        Well, it’s not a matter of literature, it’s a matter of taste, class, a decent respect for the opinions and beliefs of (millions, if not billions) of others, intellectual maturity, a rudimentary understanding of the tenuous nature of our ability to arrive at even simple truths much less ultimate ones, etc., etc., etc. Actually, put this way, maybe it is literary.         Cheers, tgb

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I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!

WATCH OUT FOR LIGHTENING!!!!!!

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and who the fuck are YOU to say people are "trapped"  Where do you fucking bigots get off pissing on people whose lives you don’t agree with.  You’re the one who needs a prayer and all the inbreed, backwood degenerates who think like you.    The Speedbyrd :

We can all see that you put alot of thought into your choice of words. Why must you resort to such senseless flaming? Why can’t we all just get along? I like a good CIVIL discourse of ideas. You should try it. People tend to take civil discussion a tad bit more seriously. You could use such passion for good instead of such ridiculous rantings.                                                                                           Just some observations.                                                   Regards,                                                    Jim

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and who the fuck are YOU to say people are "trapped"  Where do you fucking bigots get off pissing on people whose lives you don’t agree with.  You’re the one who needs a prayer and all the inbreed, backwood degenerates who think like you.       The Speedbyrd : We can all see that you put alot of thought into your choice of words. Why must you resort to such senseless flaming? Why can’t we all just get along? I like a good CIVIL discourse of ideas. You should try it. People tend to take civil discussion a tad bit more seriously. You could use such passion for good instead of such ridiculous rantings.                                                 Just some observations.                                                   Regards,                                                    Jim

Hey Speedey, I wrote earlier that I would continue this ‘discussion’ on alt.discrimination and talk.politics only, but I think now I will not pursue it at all with you.  The reason (and I’ll dumb this down to your level): You’re a silly twit!  Welcome to the filter. hammer

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Question:

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Not really. How about his Dave, a business should be able to hire and fire who they want, but once hired, an employee should have some ‘right’ to job security. An employee should not be fired for arbitrary reasons.  Can we agree that employees can be dismissed for poor performance, chronic absenteeism, putting other workers in danger, even a failure of the business to generate enough profits to justify keeping the employee?

I’m not aware of people being fired for arbitrary reasons.  If a person does good work and produces value for his/her employer, that person will keep his/her job, assuming all of the other conditions you mentioned above.  Unless you’re working for a psychopath, of course. If the company is losing money or needs to reorganize to compete, it will have to do so. Businesses do not opperate in a vacuum.  Many communities, counties, cities, etc, offer businesses tax breaks, cut rate power, cut rate water, etc. as an incentive to move in to their area.  IOW citizens of the communities subsidize some start up expenses and production expenses to entice a company to move.  Why would they do this?  I’ll tell you.  It is because a community will prosper when most in the community have a paycheck.  The barber prospers, the butcher prospers, the baker prospers, the car lot prospers, the insurance agent prospers, the McDonalds prospers, the K-mart prospers.  Why is this, you ask?  It is because people have a tendency to spend their money instead of saving it.  Therefore, more paychecks in the community reads more money being spent in the community.

Exactly.  I have no arguments here. When a business (that makes a profit) decides to downsize in order to benefit from the anarchy of Wall Street, and BTW increase the CEO’s take, then that business has not only done a disservice to the men and women who worked there, but to the car lot owner, the mortgage banker, the insurance company, and the grocer and the barber, and the K-mart, and the McDonalds and everybody else who indirectly benefited from having those jobs in the community.  If it was the case that the business recieved special treatment to locate into the area, then that business screwed over everyone who paid taxes that subsidized, the road, the power, the water, the tax brakes given to that business.

Whoa.  A business has to reorganize in response to Wall Street if Wall Street dictates the value of the stock because management must answer (at least theoretically) to the owners of the company.  If someone has a gripe with that phenomenon, take it up with the owners, who demand a certain return on their investment. Folks aren’t getting screwed – all of this is in response to normal business cycles.  Talking about business screwing folks is like hollering at God because drought ruined a farmer’s crop that year – you can do it but it won’t do you much good. Dave, ol boy, I bet you have a really high market value.  Too bad you don’t have a human value.  I bet you’d love to go back to the 19th Century, with child labor, 80 hour work weeks, the company town, the company script, the company store, no unions, etc…..   I bet you are drooling just reading about it.

How much are you betting?  Because you’re wrong.  80 hour work weeks and so forth isn’t smart business – I’d much rather have a satisfied, well-rested, fairly compensated workforce.  But business is not in the "loving humanity the way Ed wants humanity loved" business.   Neither am I. These days one sorry ass job is as good as the next.

I suppose so.  Whatever. Or go into business for yourself.  Compete against the big boys, one man alone, undercapitalized.  Why the hell not, I did it for nine years.  It wasn’t easy at first, but it got easier.  I have to admit that what I was doing was pretty much a cottage industry; tutoring some public, but mostly priviate school kids in mathematics, and Spanish.  It makes me think when I hear that private schools out perform public schools, sure they do when you have a private tutor for half of your academic subjects.  Aside from that, I’m very grateful that there are parents who will go to any lengths to insure that their children have a good education.

Good for you.  Going into business for yourself does do away with a lot of iniquities, unless you’re an unreasonable boss to yourself.  <g Good for you Dave, we know you would never dump your old wife (who lost market value) for a newer model.

Whatever.  Some things appreciate in value when they age. They probably know who is taking advantage of them, but are too far gone to give a damn anymore.  You are right in that they ain’t never gonna make it. However, by voting republican, they can feel better about themselves.

Well, it is the feel-good era, isn’t it?  The important thing is to get out there and vote. Yeah Mark, take charge of your life, work for the day when your children and grandchildren won’t have to kowtow to the erratic whims of ‘the market’, work for the day when citizens of this country can have a human value as well as a market value.

Sheesh.  No human value?  Lighten up, will you?  Of course there’s human value.  But businesses aren’t charities, nor should they be expected to be, despite your thoughts to the contrary.  I hope his kids can enter into a world where they can exchange their labor and talents and intelligence for currency at a fair exchange rate.  A honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay. — "Where are the telephones?  Where is a fax machine?  We will kill the ones who eat us and eat the ones we kill!" – Dr. Hunter S. Thompson "We are the President" – Hillary Rodham Clinton

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[ MAXWG.TXT 8K ]

Organization: It wasn’t me. It must have been some other fat guy that looks like me. Newsgroups: alt.politics.reform,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics .democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.presid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, let see if I understand this. <snip Second, these evil CEO’s and businesses are who employees these people, and guess what, business is in the business of making money. If they don’t make a profit, they go out of business and I think a bad job is better than NO job. Is that why they "downsize", then hire y’all back at lower wages as a "consultant", with no benifits, and no unemployment, and…? Yes, that’s right.  I suppose you would appreciate some form of micromanagement legislation from Congress telling businesspeople who they can and cannot hire and fire?  In other words, you have some sort of "right" to your job?

How about his Dave, a business should be able to hire and fire who they want, but once hired, an employee should have some ‘right’ to job security. An employee should not be fired for arbitrary reasons.  Can we agree that employees can be dismissed for poor performance, chronic absenteeism, putting other workers in danger, even a failure of the business to generate enough profits to justify keeping the employee? Businesses do not opperate in a vacuum.  Many communities, counties, cities, etc, offer businesses tax breaks, cut rate power, cut rate water, etc. as an incentive to move in to their area.  IOW citizens of the communities subsidize some start up expenses and production expenses to entice a company to move.  Why would they do this?  I’ll tell you.  It is because a community will prosper when most in the community have a paycheck.  The barber prospers, the butcher prospers, the baker prospers, the car lot prospers, the insurance agent prospers, the McDonalds prospers, the K-mart prospers.  Why is this, you ask?  It is because people have a tendency to spend their money instead of saving it.  Therefore, more paychecks in the community reads more money being spent in the community. When a business (that makes a profit) decides to downsize in order to benefit from the anarchy of Wall Street, and BTW increase the CEO’s take, then that business has not only done a disservice to the men and women who worked there, but to the car lot owner, the mortgage banker, the insurance company, and the grocer and the barber, and the K-mart, and the McDonalds and everybody else who indirectly benefited from having those jobs in the community.  If it was the case that the business recieved special treatment to locate into the area, then that business screwed over everyone who paid taxes that subsidized, the road, the power, the water, the tax brakes given to that business. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Start your own business, get a second, or third job, get an education. Yeah, that’s right. Never mind you won’t see your family, *ever*. Never mind you’re working 60 or 80 hours a week, just because you can’t get a job that pays you a living wage. You’re only here to work, you’re not here to have a life. See answer number 1.  We’ll just hang around and wait for the Congress to mandate your "life" and to set things up so that your employer HAS to pay you a "living wage" (whatever THAT is) no matter what the true market value of your work or production is.  Yes, you might have to make sacrifices here and there in order to succeed.  Yes, you might have to work nights and weekends in order to make it.  Are you afraid of that? Or perhaps you would rather live and work in a system where your friend, the employer, under orders from Big Brother, cuts you checks in amounts sizable enough so you can work a few hours, hang with with your friends, do whatever it is you do with a family, and otherwise have a "meaningful" life?

Dave, ol boy, I bet you have a really high market value.  Too bad you don’t have a human value.  I bet you’d love to go back to the 19th Century, with child labor, 80 hour work weeks, the company town, the company script, the company store, no unions, etc…..   I bet you are drooling just reading about it. <snip So now I’m in Chicago, and working regular 50 and 60+ hour weeks. 8 hour day? Bloody hell. Comp time? You gotta be kidding. Overtime? Come *on*, we’re all "administration", or "managers" (so who do we manage?) so that we can’t join a union, and get some protection against crap like this. Congratulations on finding a new job.  And if the job parameters don’t suit you, find another one.  It’s easier finding a job if you already have one.  And it’s a darn shame that your employer is taking away so much from you – perhaps you should find another job. Oh, I don’t have to work for them, I can leave. Right. And get a job with an identical company, with the same policies.

These days one sorry ass job is as good as the next. Identical job with an identical company with identical policies?  So – get a different job with a different company with different policies.

Or go into business for yourself.  Compete against the big boys, one man alone, undercapitalized.  Why the hell not, I did it for nine years.  It wasn’t easy at first, but it got easier.  I have to admit that what I was doing was pretty much a cottage industry; tutoring some public, but mostly priviate school kids in mathematics, and Spanish.  It makes me think when I hear that private schools out perform public schools, sure they do when you have a private tutor for half of your academic subjects.  Aside from that, I’m very grateful that there are parents who will go to any lengths to insure that their children have a good education. <snip So who’s rich? You assholes from the right-wing newsgroups sure ain’t. If you were, you wouldn’t be spending as much time as you do here, you’d be out spending big bucks in fancy restaurants, and probably paying for your own expensive prostitutes.

Un-unh, no, rich men dump their old wives and marry young, beautiful, expensive prostitues.  At least some of them do.  Hell, if all you care about is market value, why not? I reject the ad hominem attack.  And there’s more than a hint of class jealousy here.  If you’re rich, you must be an asshole and you must be hiring whores?  What – there aren’t any poor assholes or middle-class ho bangers?

Good for you Dave, we know you would never dump your old wife (who lost market value) for a newer model. But you ain’t, you’re here. Nothing more than a bunch of wannabee rich folks, who ain’t *never* gonna make it, and are gonna blame the Evil Gov’t and Taxes, while your bosses (when you have jobs) treat you like Dilbert, but y’all are too *stupid* to see who’s taking advantage of you every day.

They probably know who is taking advantage of them, but are too far gone to give a damn anymore.  You are right in that they ain’t never gonna make it. However, by voting republican, they can feel better about themselves. I don’t know about "evil" government.  But many of the actions of government are the source of many of the evils that you are discussing and that face us all today.  We all understand the need to pay taxes to support the necessary functions of a federal government.  We do not support ruinous tax rates to support the unnecessary functions of government or the waste that goes on in Washington and elsewhere today. So – sit around and plot against the evil warlord industrialists that are deliberately plotting against you personally and making you work so hard that you can’t go out and play at night, if you want.  Perhaps a smarter strategy would be to take charge of your own life and go out and get what you want out of your life.

Yeah Mark, take charge of your life, work for the day when your children and grandchildren won’t have to kowtow to the erratic whims of ‘the market’, work for the day when citizens of this country can have a human value as well as a market value. Ed Owen — ***Who are you going to belive– me or your own two eyes?*** — Chico Marx —

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Repost from  way back when….

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Organization: It wasn’t me. It must have been some other fat guy that looks like me. Newsgroups: alt.politics.reform,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics .democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.presid

I should pay someone (that includes minimum wage laws). EO Oh, so you are the one that has been hiring all those illegal aliens! DH Illegal aliens has nothing to do with the argument.  The point he is making is that in a perfect world, the market would drive the market value of one’s wages – not a bunch of politicians who are driven by their own schemes/hauntings/commitments. Wrong, illegal aliens have everything to do with it as well as minimum wage laws.  If Terry Spicer wants to pay slave wages let him open shop in Honduras.  Why is it you people only want to obey law that benefit you? TS Second, these evil CEO’s and businesses are who employees these people, and guess what, business is in the business of making money. If they don’t make a profit, they go out of business and I think a bad job is better than NO job. EO If the CEO doesn’t make 4 – 10 million a year they might be able to stay in busniness. DH Okay, class – let’s go down the list of every company in the world that  pays its CEO more than $4 million and manages to stay in business. What’s that, you say?  That would take up too much bandwith?  You’re correct, of course.  Let it suffice to say that there are beaucoup (an economic term) companies that pay their CEOs in excess of $4 million and are very much in business, thank you very much. I don’t care how much CEO’s make as long as they are not laying people off in order to fatten their own wallets.  Let’s see.  Suppose I am a CEO and make say, 15 million a year.  If my business starts failing I could: 1.  Decrease my own salary and keep the employees, who are already trained at their jobs, working a while longer. 2.  Lay them off and keep my salary, perhaps even increase it. EOBad job, as in risking life and limb at $4.25 an hour so the CEO can make  4-10 million a year?  No thanks. DH It’s your right, just as it is everyone’s right, to reject any job wherein your life is in danger for such a small amount of remuneration. I daresay that the jobs where one’s life is truly in danger on an ongoing basis pay just a smidge more than $4.25 an hour. Too bad anyone in that situation probably won’t own a computer and be able to tell you about it. TS Third, an alternative, let’s just send ALL money to Washington and let them decide who gets what, oh we have that already it’s call welfare. EO Have you forgotten what the Queen of Mean said?  "Only little people pay  taxes." DH Sigh.  Why bring up Ms. Helmsley again?  What does she have to do with anything?  Mr. Spicer is expressing his frustration at a government who  apparently views our gross pay as the starting point by which the government is funded. Why not bring her up again?  I’m sure others of her ilk share her sentiments on the subject.  If Mr Spicer is frustrated by a government that taxes him, why would he oppose taxing the higher brackets more? It is they who can afford armies of accountants to lighten their load. TS In America, you can make as much money as you want. You can be satsified with minimum wage or do something to get above minimum wage. EO I understand selling Cocaine is very profitable, sure it has it’s risks, but then what doesn’t?  The profits although subject to tax, are rarely reported.  IOW you get to keep what you earn.  It has the extra added  benefit of making one self-employed, which you and your ilk seem to find so attractive. DH Ooh..a touch of jealousy, perhaps?  Do you have some sort of latent, not-so-buried hatred against folks who have taken on the American dream and actually had the audacity to succeed without your permission or the government’s assistance?  I make considerably more than the minimum wage and I assure you I don’t sell cocaine.  I confess I don’t understand the response. I’m sure you don’t understand the point.  I suspect others will. TS Start your own business, get a second, or third job, get an education. Now I by no means make $1 million a year, but I don’t make minimum  wage either. I used to make minimum, but I did something about it. I  one time I was working two jobs. I got an education. I improved myself. Instead of trashing businesses for doing what they do. EO Sounds like the Stockholm Syndrome to me. DH I’m sure that makes sense to you.  It makes no sense to me.  Mr. Spicer’s response makes a whole lot more sense to me.  When I was fired from my job as the CFO of a small bank, I took phone orders for Pizza Hut delivery at $5 hour.  This was eight years ago.  I did what I had to do to pay the bills.  There’s pride in that and that is what makes sense to us – and those of our "ilk" – which I take to mean those who do not mooch off the government. That is a clever way of saying "I don’t know what the Stockholm syndrome is."  BTW I’ll take a large sausage and mushroom, hold the anchovies. TS Encourage people to better themselves. We have thousands of people wanting to come to this country because they know that here, there are no limits. If you work hard you can become a millionnaire. EO You can also become a millionaire by:  1.  inheritance  2.  winning the lotto  3.  selling drugs  4.  thief  5.  embezzelment  6.  own a sweat shop  7.  sue businesses with deep pockets DH There’s a thought.  Lay around all day and dream about winning the Lotto. EO If money is all you care about, why work hard for it? DH Well, if love is all you cared about, wouldn’t you work hard for that? Or respect?  Sheesh – of COURSE you’re going to work hard for something you care about. Who said ‘love’ is all I care about. DH But that’s the mantra of the liberal – "All they care about is money".  And then look at each other like the 11th Commandment was just discovered.  It’s a respect for money, my friend, and what it can provide for you.  What is it with the socialists and the liberals?  Why does a group of people who express such empathy with the poor at the same time want to take up arms against those struggling to escape poverty?  It makes no sense.  It makes poverty into some sort of virtue. That is romantic nonsense. I don’t think you understand liberalism very well.

EO The people I see working hard for what little they get:  1.  the men who collect my garbage every monday morning DH Actually garbage men are quite well paid. I don’t know what people make, but you do? EO 2.  the teachers of my children DH I won’t argue that one – one of the most important jobs in the world deserves higher pay.  But you expressed such disdain for people who made a good wage  - wouldn’t this lower teachers in your eyes?  Like they would care? I did not express disdain for people who make a good wage.  I make a good wage.  It is you who express disdain for people who don’t make a good wage. EO 3.  the cashier at any store, anywhere DH Gosh darn it, it’s that free marketplace again.  Cashiering isn’t worth the same as other jobs.  Duh. Duh, not as much as being a rocket scientist for sure.  What is the point, do these kind of people seem beneath you?  Why do they deserve your contempt?  Exactly what is it about working people that you find so repulsive.  Is it because they sweat to earn a living? EO 4.  the mail man  DH Bwahahahahahahahah.  That’s a laugh.  Postal employees are paid quite well as a matter of fact. Considering the responsibility of the job, I disagree. EO 5.  the mechanic who fixes my piece of junk car DH See #4 above.  With labor at $30-35 an hour?  I’m looking at ads now for skilled mechanics – anywhere from $30,000 to $50,000 a year.  Come on –  get with it. What do you have against working people?  $30,000-50,000 doesn’t go far these days with mortgage payments, college for kids.  Sure, some people get by on a lot less (the opperative words are ‘get by’).  Oh, I see, working people should live in cardboard boxes and scavenge for food. Under no circumstance should they ever aspire to send their children to college or own a home. EO 6.  the bartender at the local tavern DH Well, hoss, the ol’ marketplace rears its ugly head again.  It just doesn’t cost a lot to pay somebody to open your beer for you.  Perhaps if you tipped better or something…. EO 7.  the owner and employees at the print shop that I patronize DH Man..you sure are privy to a lot of folks’ private financial information.  Do you, like, stalk them or something?  Or do you work for IRS? None of your damn business, but you seem to know a lot about what frustrates Mr Spicer, as well as the incomes of  mechanics, postal employees and garbage collectors.  Who are you the CIA? EO 8.  many other nameless faces I encounter in my day DH Well, those are better than faceless names, I guess.  The truth of the matter is that you don’t have a clue as to what all of those "nameless faces" make. I have a clue, but it is not down to the penny yet?  If the repbulicans win, I’ll have a better clue.  It will be a matter of pennies.  Lucky for us republicans are stupid.  Mr. Bill will beat Mr. Dull like a stepchild! EO None of these people will earn a million dollars by working hard. They  already work hard and earning a million dollars just isn’t in the cards  for them.  They may however, live better lives, spend more time with  their children, volunteer for community projects, etc., if they were paid above a subsistance wage. DH Well, sure, they might.  If

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