Question:

Thanks to everyone who responded. I’ll skip the large firm idea.  The idea of a sole practitioner or small firm always seemed better to me, but I thought I’d ask just in case.  I hadn’t thought about the fact that in a large firm, a different person might be doing my taxes every year.  And I have no plan or desire to go to a H&R-Block-type tax preparation company.

Response:

Do big accounting firms typically do individual tax returns? I am an individual who up until now did his own tax returns.  I am a single filer, own my own home, work a full-time and a part-time job, and in late 2003 I bought a second home that I am fixing up and plan to rent out soon. I also plan to buy more homes to rent out as an investment and to create a future retirement income stream. I filed for an automatic extension and I am now looking for an accountant to do my 2003 taxes and future year tax returns each year. My guess is that I will probably look for a sole practitioner or small tax accounting firm.  But there is also a huge accounting firm right near where I work and I am wondering about going there.  Is that overkill for such a small task? My only reason for thinking about using a big firm would be that if the person doing my taxes has any tax-related questions he/she would have others in the same firm to check with.  As an example, because I bought my rental property in 2003, but it will not be available for rent until next month, I think there are issues about how to treat the 2003 expenses.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why pay big bucks for a big firm to do individual tax returns.  Go to a small firm they still have CPAs doing the returns or at least reviewing them.  If your deductions are somewhat wierd and complicated stay away from H&R Block.  I worked at an accounting firm and lots of people switched to us cause H&R screwed there stuff up.  If you don’t feel comfortable doing your tax return go to someone with CPA after there last name but a smaller firm. Sorry to any1 working in a big firm:)  I’ve been there I don’t see the point in the price difference for a bigger name in a not so complicated tax return..  I felt like I was ripping clients off big time for something that took me a half hour and billed the client out for 300 bucks.. Oh yeah i got paid 10 bucks for a half hour work..  Guess I was manipulated myself. Hehe don’t want to offend any1 just stating my opinion. Do big accounting firms typically do individual tax returns? I am an individual who up until now did his own tax returns.  I am a single filer, own my own home, work a full-time and a part-time job, and in late 2003 I bought a second home that I am fixing up and plan to rent out soon. I also plan to buy more homes to rent out as an investment and to create a future retirement income stream. I filed for an automatic extension and I am now looking for an accountant to do my 2003 taxes and future year tax returns each year. My guess is that I will probably look for a sole practitioner or small tax accounting firm.  But there is also a huge accounting firm right near where I work and I am wondering about going there.  Is that overkill for such a small task? My only reason for thinking about using a big firm would be that if the person doing my taxes has any tax-related questions he/she would have others in the same firm to check with.  As an example, because I bought my rental property in 2003, but it will not be available for rent until next month, I think there are issues about how to treat the 2003 expenses.

Bryan, I agree 100%.  That’s why I left CPA firms and started my own practice.  I didn’t like seeing someone with a Form 1040EZ being charged $200 and it took maybe 2 minutes to input the information into the tax program. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

In your present circumstances, what are legitimate "issues" to you are well within the experience and knowledge of any competent professional.  Most large firms have strict procedures for quality control and supervision that will add significantly to your fees and are not necessary for YOUR work, so I would recommend a small firm or sole practitioner. Also – if you are satisfied with the work done, there is a reasonable possibility in a small firm that your return next year might be completed by the same person who will then have some familiarity with your situation; that’s highly unlikely in a large firm.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do big accounting firms typically do individual tax returns? I am an individual who up until now did his own tax returns.  I am a single filer, own my own home, work a full-time and a part-time job, and in late 2003 I bought a second home that I am fixing up and plan to rent out soon. I also plan to buy more homes to rent out as an investment and to create a future retirement income stream. I filed for an automatic extension and I am now looking for an accountant to do my 2003 taxes and future year tax returns each year. My guess is that I will probably look for a sole practitioner or small tax accounting firm.  But there is also a huge accounting firm right near where I work and I am wondering about going there.  Is that overkill for such a small task? My only reason for thinking about using a big firm would be that if the person doing my taxes has any tax-related questions he/she would have others in the same firm to check with.  As an example, because I bought my rental property in 2003, but it will not be available for rent until next month, I think there are issues about how to treat the 2003 expenses.

Response:

Why pay big bucks for a big firm to do individual tax returns.  Go to a small firm they still have CPAs doing the returns or at least reviewing them.  If your deductions are somewhat wierd and complicated stay away from H&R Block.  I worked at an accounting firm and lots of people switched to us cause H&R screwed there stuff up.  If you don’t feel comfortable doing your tax return go to someone with CPA after there last name but a smaller firm. Sorry to any1 working in a big firm:)  I’ve been there I don’t see the point in the price difference for a bigger name in a not so complicated tax return..  I felt like I was ripping clients off big time for something that took me a half hour and billed the client out for 300 bucks.. Oh yeah i got paid 10 bucks for a half hour work..  Guess I was manipulated myself.  Hehe don’t want to offend any1 just stating my opinion.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do big accounting firms typically do individual tax returns? I am an individual who up until now did his own tax returns.  I am a single filer, own my own home, work a full-time and a part-time job, and in late 2003 I bought a second home that I am fixing up and plan to rent out soon. I also plan to buy more homes to rent out as an investment and to create a future retirement income stream. I filed for an automatic extension and I am now looking for an accountant to do my 2003 taxes and future year tax returns each year. My guess is that I will probably look for a sole practitioner or small tax accounting firm.  But there is also a huge accounting firm right near where I work and I am wondering about going there.  Is that overkill for such a small task? My only reason for thinking about using a big firm would be that if the person doing my taxes has any tax-related questions he/she would have others in the same firm to check with.  As an example, because I bought my rental property in 2003, but it will not be available for rent until next month, I think there are issues about how to treat the 2003 expenses.

Response:

Question:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

For tax filing only, I recommend Taxbrain.com. It’s lesser known, but in my opinion treats its customers with a higher degree of respect than most software companies. SF

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? For tax filing only, I recommend Taxbrain.com. It’s lesser known, but in my opinion treats its customers with a higher degree of respect than most software companies.

TAXBRAIN the kinder, gentler, sweeter tax software, for that warm and fuzzy feeling come next April 15th. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SF

Response:

http://www.simplyaccounting.com/simplyonline/ Angela – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t see that, unless this is the SimplyCare link that links to ACCPAC? Wish there was a way to keep track of hours/miles on a Palm or Pocket PC and sync with some sort of accounting software. What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

No, fully online accounting system. Also, something that would sync with a Palm or Pocket PC would be nice. Some way to be able to keep track of hours and miles while in the field, then sync when back home. May not work with fully online accounting system. i don’t think there is even any accounting software that does this period? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups

Response:

I don’t see that, unless this is the SimplyCare link that links to ACCPAC? Wish there was a way to keep track of hours/miles on a Palm or Pocket PC and sync with some sort of accounting software. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

I don’t see that, unless this is the SimplyCare link that links to ACCPAC? Wish there was a way to keep track of hours/miles on a Palm or Pocket PC and sync with some sort of accounting software.

Palms come with a built in application called Expense that exports directly to Excel.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups I’d caution to be thorough in investigating the charge structure of each product you evaluate as well as its functionality.  Intuit for one has gone to a fee-based approach that makes the initial purchase attractive but the continuing costs for features such as payroll and tax tables can be onerous, espcially for "mom ‘n pop" home/small businesses… In order to keep the payroll functions working a user can opt to upgrade each year. This can cost for the basic program around 100 dollars. The term onerous may be an overstatement.

That will/may depend on the size of the business, granted….reading the QB ng’s one quickly finds many sorely displeased w/Intuit’s pricing structure, however. But, as I say, they are almost all one-person <very small businesses in my readings…of course, it’s the forced nature of the upgrade that is the sticky wicket for many.  I simply wanted to make OP aware that there is a continuing cost that may be more than anticipated from the box cover and ad copy.

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups

I’d caution to be thorough in investigating the charge structure of each product you evaluate as well as its functionality.  Intuit for one has gone to a fee-based approach that makes the initial purchase attractive but the continuing costs for features such as payroll and tax tables can be onerous, espcially for "mom ‘n pop" home/small businesses…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups I’d caution to be thorough in investigating the charge structure of each product you evaluate as well as its functionality.  Intuit for one has gone to a fee-based approach that makes the initial purchase attractive but the continuing costs for features such as payroll and tax tables can be onerous, espcially for "mom ‘n pop" home/small businesses…

In order to keep the payroll functions working a user can opt to upgrade each year. This can cost for the basic program around 100 dollars. The term onerous may be an overstatement.

Response:

Question:

I use and have been using myob for 5 years and can help you out anyway possible as far as the tax table you can input them manually and i find the program very to work with rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are in Canada I offer these 2 questions: 1) Do you intend to run payroll? 2) Are you anticipating technicial problems (eg. running on XP or other equally unstable/unfriendly configuration of Windoze)? 1) If no, then I might suggest it. If yes, there currently is no support or payroll tax table updates from MYOB for the Canadian version. However, there are third party software companies providing tax tables for a reasonable rate. 2) Since Intwit bought MYOB Canada, there is no longer technical support. However, there are several forums and you CAN get a pretty fast response. That being said, I prefer QuickBooks for many reasons. Cost of their services is NOT one of them. Technical support and payroll tax table updates are expensive.

Response:

2) Since Intwit bought MYOB Canada, there is no longer technical support. However, there are several forums and you CAN get a pretty fast response.

Hi! I am an MYOB user in Canada and would like to gain access to these forums. Would you please post their URLs for us, please. BTW, I bought QuickBooks Pro 2001 when they offered free credit card merchant accounts. After evaluating the product for a month or so, I tossed it on the shelf and went back to MYOB. Even though my background is in accounting, I find it to be much more intuitive than QuickBooks. At least I got to write of the wasted $300~ that I spent on QB. Roberta

Response:

users

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2) Since Intwit bought MYOB Canada, there is no longer technical support. However, there are several forums and you CAN get a pretty fast response. Hi! I am an MYOB user in Canada and would like to gain access to these forums. Would you please post their URLs for us, please. BTW, I bought QuickBooks Pro 2001 when they offered free credit card merchant accounts. After evaluating the product for a month or so, I tossed it on the shelf and went back to MYOB. Even though my background is in accounting, I find it to be much more intuitive than QuickBooks. At least I got to write of the wasted $300~ that I spent on QB. Roberta

Response:

Try out www.smartgroups.com, there is an MYOB forum there. Sign up and you can either receive emails or login and read web-based. — Stephanie Serba, AICIA Partner, Accounting & Technology Durham Business Outsource www.dbo.ca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2) Since Intwit bought MYOB Canada, there is no longer technical support. However, there are several forums and you CAN get a pretty fast response. Hi! I am an MYOB user in Canada and would like to gain access to these forums. Would you please post their URLs for us, please. BTW, I bought QuickBooks Pro 2001 when they offered free credit card merchant accounts. After evaluating the product for a month or so, I tossed it on the shelf and went back to MYOB. Even though my background is in accounting, I find it to be much more intuitive than QuickBooks. At least I got to write of the wasted $300~ that I spent on QB. Roberta

Response:

Thanks, Steph! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try out www.smartgroups.com, there is an MYOB forum there. Sign up and you can either receive emails or login and read web-based.

Response:

Can people please provide an opinion if they have used or are currently using MYOB Business Basics software. I am looking at purchasing it shortly, Regards Brendon

Response:

Sorry if this is the wrong group, should I post elsewhere, or will this suffice? Brendon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can people please provide an opinion if they have used or are currently using MYOB Business Basics software. I am looking at purchasing it shortly, Regards Brendon

Response:

Can people please provide an opinion if they have used or are currently using MYOB Business Basics software. I am looking at purchasing it shortly,

I use it, I like it better than Quickbooks which gives me the blue screen of deatth.   Doesn’t handle discounts or credit memos well.   To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I will be running a Web Design company, so there should be no real issues with discounts, or credits….hopefully. REgards Brendon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can people please provide an opinion if they have used or are currently using MYOB Business Basics software. I am looking at purchasing it shortly, I use it, I like it better than Quickbooks which gives me the blue screen of deatth. Doesn’t handle discounts or credit memos well. To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Can people please provide an opinion if they have used or are currently using MYOB Business Basics software. I am looking at purchasing it shortly, I use it, I like it better than Quickbooks which gives me the blue screen of deatth.   Doesn’t handle discounts or credit memos well.  

But 88% of small business computer accounting program users prefer QuickBooks. I do not recall a blue screen with QB since W95. Today it almost never crashes and may not have frozen a computer in years.

Response:

I will be running a Web Design company, so there should be no real issues with discounts, or credits….hopefully.

You’ve got no vendors who offer discount terms for early payment?   You never have vendors who issue credit memos? To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

But 88% of small business computer accounting program users prefer QuickBooks. I do not recall a blue screen with QB since W95. Today it almost never crashes and may not have frozen a computer in years.

Well I get the blue screen often in Quickbooks but never get it in MYOB.   I’ve never gotten Intit to explain what causes the Blue screen of death.   To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

If you are in Canada I offer these 2 questions: 1) Do you intend to run payroll? 2) Are you anticipating technicial problems (eg. running on XP or other equally unstable/unfriendly configuration of Windoze)? 1) If no, then I might suggest it. If yes, there currently is no support or payroll tax table updates from MYOB for the Canadian version. However, there are third party software companies providing tax tables for a reasonable rate. 2) Since Intwit bought MYOB Canada, there is no longer technical support. However, there are several forums and you CAN get a pretty fast response. That being said, I prefer QuickBooks for many reasons. Cost of their services is NOT one of them. Technical support and payroll tax table updates are expensive. — Stephanie Serba, AICIA Partner, Durham Business Outsource Accounting & Technology www.dbo.ca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can people please provide an opinion if they have used or are currently using MYOB Business Basics software. I am looking at purchasing it shortly, Regards Brendon

Response:

I will be running a Web Design company, so there should be no real issues with discounts, or credits….hopefully.

No, but there may be a big issue with having clients pay on the web, with automatic entry into your accouting program. There may be 50 add-on programs for this, with many more being added rapidly. There also are integral and add-ons that track time and turn it into invoices and others that link scanned documents to QB transactions. There are about 300 such programs, with a very wide range of functions, at http://www.marketplace.intuit.com/ and 600+ at http://www.quickbooks-add-ons.com/ Programs like this increasingly let us quickly and easily never enter data twice, reduce errors, speed results and better manage our small businesses. Very few QB competitors are at all likely to ever provide this very increasingly broad range of integrated add-on capability. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -REgards Brendon Can people please provide an opinion if they have used or are currently using MYOB Business Basics software. I am looking at purchasing it shortly, I use it, I like it better than Quickbooks which gives me the blue screen of deatth. Doesn’t handle discounts or credit memos well. To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  On Sunday 29 December 2002 09:44 am, A. Lucien Meyers shouted from the  highest mountain: If you want the best stability and reliability, Slackware is IMHO unbeatable.  It is actually my preferred distrib, using a BSD-like init system and has the best documented config files I have ever seen in any system anywhere.  Slackware has a "KISS" approach but requires you to learn some unix.  Was never able to crash my Slackware system, although I did some pretty mean things to it.  Just waiting for the 9.0 release to get a set of CDs and install it.  Meanwhile I’m just too lazy.  ;-)  Thanks for the info.  I have no problem learning some UNIX, in fact I  desperately *want* to know the ins and outs of the UNIX/Linux system.

Just visit the Slackware website at http://www.slackware.com download, print and, most importantly, READ the book.  Order the CDs and jump in.  BTW Slack installs the quickest of any GNU/Linux distrib.  Online support is best at the slackware newsgroup AFAICR: alt.os.linux.slackware otherwise go to http://www.google.com click the newsgroups button and search for ’slackware’. Some of the gurus are not very patient with newbies too lazy to read the manuals but otherwise the Slack newsgroup can solve any problem and then some. Lucien — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.

Response:

I tried this Lindows, it totally sucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153 This could get VERY interesting. I looked into this Lindows.  I’m not so sure about that one.  Watered-down Linux and watered-down Windows.  Almost seems like the worst of both worlds. I’d rather go straight Linux. BTW, to A.L. Meyers or anyone else, I am currently using Windows and SuSE Linux.  I want to try a different distribution on a new (clean) PC I will be getting.  I’d like to get my hands a little dirtier this time.  Any suggestions on a distribution?  I was thinking Slackware, but this Gentoo thing looks rather interesting, using some BSD technology.  Still leaning towards Slackware though.  I don’t think I could quite handle LFS (Linux From Scratch) yet. — Todd Stephens

Response:

<big snip – FreeBSD took the approach of trying to be the "best BSD for  Intel-compatible hardware."  There are now ports to Alpha and SPARC,  but it’s most mature on Intel hardware.

<big snip Many may know this, but the alpha chip was created by DEC, which was acquired by Compaq and then HP. I believe the last alpha upgrade has already been released (there may be one more). I have not followed this recently because most HP/Compaq/DEC people supporting alpha are no longer doing so.    Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540      Charter Member:  QuickBooks Advisory Council Lowest QB Prices   http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book  http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes  http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153 This could get VERY interesting. I looked into this Lindows.  I’m not so sure about that one.  Watered-down Linux and watered-down Windows.  Almost seems like the worst of both worlds.  According to the reviews I have read, the Linux commentators share your  view. I’d rather go straight Linux.  So would I, but it is still an interesting trend. BTW, to A.L. Meyers or anyone else, I am currently using Windows and SuSE Linux.  I want to try a different distribution on a new (clean) PC I will be getting.  I’d like to get my hands a little dirtier this time.  Any suggestions on a distribution?  I was thinking Slackware, but this Gentoo thing looks rather interesting, using some BSD technology.  Still leaning towards Slackware though.  I don’t think I could quite handle LFS (Linux From Scratch) yet.  Please keep us posted.  I’m using RedHat, which is probably no "dirtier" than SuSE.    

Currently use SuSE a lot because it is the most widely used distrib in Europe, has much German literature and is relatively easy for newbies. But it keeps you in a straightjacket with its proprietary configuration tools. Tested Gentoo GNU/Linux for several months but gave up on it because the packaging tools and frequently the packages are simply too much on the "bleeding edge" and therefore frequently are wounded.  According to my value system, a gram of either stability or reliability is worth a kilogram of both newness and coolness. Debian is an excellent distrib.  Its packaging system "apt-get" with ".deb" files is generally proclaimed the best. If you want the best stability and reliability, Slackware is IMHO unbeatable.  It is actually my preferred distrib, using a BSD-like init system and has the best documented config files I have ever seen in any system anywhere.  Slackware has a "KISS" approach but requires you to learn some unix.  Was never able to crash my Slackware system, although I did some pretty mean things to it.  Just waiting for the 9.0 release to get a set of CDs and install it.  Meanwhile I’m just too lazy.  ;-) Lucien — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.

Response:

snipped I looked into this Lindows.  I’m not so sure about that one.  Watered-down Linux and watered-down Windows.  Almost seems like the worst of both worlds. I’d rather go straight Linux.

Whoa ! Guess thats because you haven’t tried it. I found it to be an utter swine to set up. If you are more IT than financial fair enough. If your computer is a convenient tool for you, then I think not.

Response:

On Sunday 29 December 2002 10:14 am, Kelly Tait shouted from the highest mountain: Whoa ! Guess thats because you haven’t tried it. I found it to be an utter swine to set up. If you are more IT than financial fair enough. If your computer is a convenient tool for you, then I think not.

Haven’t tried what?  Linux?  Yes, I have been using it for some time now.   It was a little tricky to get going at first, but mainly because a great deal of my hardware is designed for windows-plug and play stuff that Linux did not support well. — Todd Stephens

Response:

On Sunday 29 December 2002 09:44 am, A. Lucien Meyers shouted from the highest mountain: If you want the best stability and reliability, Slackware is IMHO unbeatable.  It is actually my preferred distrib, using a BSD-like init system and has the best documented config files I have ever seen in any system anywhere.  Slackware has a "KISS" approach but requires you to learn some unix.  Was never able to crash my Slackware system, although I did some pretty mean things to it.  Just waiting for the 9.0 release to get a set of CDs and install it.  Meanwhile I’m just too lazy.  ;-)

Thanks for the info.  I have no problem learning some UNIX, in fact I desperately *want* to know the ins and outs of the UNIX/Linux system. — Todd Stephens

Response:

On Sunday 29 December 2002 09:44 am, A. Lucien Meyers shouted from the highest mountain: Tested Gentoo GNU/Linux for several months but gave up on it because the packaging tools and frequently the packages are simply too much on the "bleeding edge" and therefore frequently are wounded.  According to my value system, a gram of either stability or reliability is worth a kilogram of both newness and coolness.

How was installation with Gentoo?  Was hardware detection/support comparable to SuSE or do you need to set everything manually? — Todd Stephens

Response:

As far as I’m concerned, the long term choices are between:  a) Red Hat, Is that because of the prominence of RH in the Linux community?  More support available, etc…

Prominence is the first point there.  The fact that many alternatives (Mandrake, TurboLinux) have been constructed as derivatives of Red Hat is a strong second point.  b) Debian, I looked into this but the feeling I got from their website is that it is something along the lines of OSX; an OS /based/ on Linux, but not all Linux.

I can’t imagine how you could conceivably have gotten that idea, which is certainly incorrect. There’s a "Debian/Hurd" port that isn’t based on Linux, but aside from such truly experimental stuff, the notion that it’s somehow "less Linux" than any other distribution is just plain silly. The only way to consider it to be a correct claim would involve considering Linux to just be the base OS kernel.  That would, of course, imply that /all/ the common Linux-based systems are "merely based on Linux."  If it were arguable that Debian "was not all Linux," then neither are the distributions from Red Hat, Gentoo, SuSE, MandrakeSoft, or /anyone/ else.  c) Gentoo (or something with similar handling of Ports), I am looking long and hard at this one.  Exactly what benefit does this Ports system confer?

It means that the basis for constructing packages that get added to some "base system" is source code. The "RPM" system that Caldera paid Red Hat Software to create (a less-than-well-known bit of history) has the result that software is distributed in the form of pre-compiled binary code.  That has the merit of not needing any development tools on the target system.  But the major _demerit_ that you need really tight control over the systems used to generate the binary packages lest there be the same kind of "DLL Hell" chaos seen in the Microsoft world. With Ports, you head to an appropriate directory, let’s say /usr/local/ports/Web/Browsers/Mozilla, and run the command "make install."  That leads to the packaging system going off and downloading source code for any relevant dependancies, and building them from source. The vital difference between that and the RPM approach is that the "tight control" can take place on /your/ computer, under /your/ control.  You don’t have to trust Red Hat Software or Ximian or MandrakeSoft or whomever to have bundled the binaries appropriately. You build them locally, and thus it’s /guaranteed/ that any GNOME or KDE libraries, that you compiled, will be compatible with the applications, /which were compiled using those libraries that you compiled./  d) BSD systems. I thought about this too.  I can’t quite figure out the differences between Free/Net/Open BSD versions.

Oversimplifying, somewhat:  - NetBSD and FreeBSD were projects to make use of the final    University of California at Berkeley/San Diego release of the BSD    4.4 Lite version of Unix.   – NetBSD declared its intent to be to be extremely portable.  It runs   on a huge number of hardware platforms, including some obscure   obsolete hardware that no other OS is currently supported for. – FreeBSD took the approach of trying to be the "best BSD for   Intel-compatible hardware."  There are now ports to Alpha and SPARC,   but it’s most mature on Intel hardware. – OpenBSD sprung off the side of NetBSD.  Theo de Raadt was working on   some security patches to NetBSD, but the community discovered that   it was impossible for everyone to work together.  (Theo is a rather   prickly character, which may well understate things dramatically.)   And so OpenBSD sprung off as some people interested in doing   security audit work on BSD code that /were/ capable of working   together started OpenBSD as a new project. The other options are largely derivative of these, with SuSE being the other one that is most viable and that is almost not quite like any of the four I listed… I may very well stick with SuSE in that case.  I have been very happy with it to date, I was just wondering what the others had to offer.  I have tried RH and Mandrake, but could not get either up-and-running as smoothly as SuSE.  How is SuSE different from the others?

Historically, its genesis was as a project by a German company to build an RPM-based Linux distribution that was originally based on Slackware.  (Thus tying some threads together .)  The results have diverged considerably from what Slackware has/had, and aside from using some of the same software management tools (e.g. – RPM), it never was terribly related to Red Hat’s distribution. The big difference between SuSE and most other Linux distributions, these days, is that the only realistic way to acquire it is by buying a "boxed set." You can go to other vendors (notably CheapBytes and LinuxCentral) and _legitimately_ buy CDs with the full contents of such notable distributions as Debian, Gentoo, Slackware, Mandrake, and Red Hat (albeit without the Red Hat name, as that would be a /trademark/ violation). But for SuSE, all that can be gotten without buying a "boxed set" is essentially a "demo CD" consisting of about 1/6th of what the distribution was like back in 2000. — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linuxdistributions.html "A program invented (sic) by a Finnish computer hacker and handed out free in 1991 cost investors in Microsoft $11 billion (#6.75 billion) this week." — Andrew Butcher in the UK’s Sunday Times, Feb 20th, 1999

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On Sunday 29 December 2002 01:18 am, Christopher Browne shouted from the highest mountain: <big snip of of fascinating history You can go to other vendors (notably CheapBytes and LinuxCentral) and _legitimately_ buy CDs with the full contents of such notable distributions as Debian, Gentoo, Slackware, Mandrake, and Red Hat (albeit without the Red Hat name, as that would be a /trademark/ violation). But for SuSE, all that can be gotten without buying a "boxed set" is essentially a "demo CD" consisting of about 1/6th of what the distribution was like back in 2000.

Thanks for all the information.  I see I was simply misunderstanding what Debian had put on their website.  I think I will stick with SuSE as they are pretty good about releasing RPMs optimized for the SuSE system.  The only thing is that you have to wait a while after the initial release of some software to get the "SuSE-ified" version.  Like when KDE releases a new version it usually takes a few weeks for the RPMs to show up on SuSE’s ftp site.  I made the mistake of using the RPMs directly from KDE the last time and everything went wrong.  I’ll keep Gentoo in mind though.  I like the Ports system, at least conceptually. — Todd Stephens

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<snip http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153 This could get VERY interesting. I looked into this Lindows.  I’m not so sure about that one.  Watered-down Linux and watered-down Windows.  Almost seems like the worst of both worlds.

According to the reviews I have read, the Linux commentators share your view. I’d rather go straight Linux.

So would I, but it is still an interesting trend. BTW, to A.L. Meyers or anyone else, I am currently using Windows and SuSE Linux.  I want to try a different distribution on a new (clean) PC I will be getting.  I’d like to get my hands a little dirtier this time.  Any suggestions on a distribution?  I was thinking Slackware, but this Gentoo thing looks rather interesting, using some BSD technology.  Still leaning towards Slackware though.  I don’t think I could quite handle LFS (Linux From Scratch) yet.

Please keep us posted. I’m using RedHat, which is probably no "dirtier" than SuSE.     Jim

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As far as I’m concerned, the long term choices are between:  a) Red Hat,

Is that because of the prominence of RH in the Linux community?  More support available, etc…  b) Debian,

I looked into this but the feeling I got from their website is that it is something along the lines of OSX; an OS /based/ on Linux, but not all Linux.  c) Gentoo (or something with similar handling of Ports),

I am looking long and hard at this one.  Exactly what benefit does this Ports system confer?  d) BSD systems.

I thought about this too.  I can’t quite figure out the differences between Free/Net/Open BSD versions. The other options are largely derivative of these, with SuSE being the other one that is most viable and that is almost not quite like any of the four I listed…

I may very well stick with SuSE in that case.  I have been very happy with it to date, I was just wondering what the others had to offer.  I have tried RH and Mandrake, but could not get either up-and-running as smoothly as SuSE.  How is SuSE different from the others? — Todd Stephens

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<snip http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153 This could get VERY interesting. I looked into this Lindows.  I’m not so sure about that one. Watered-down Linux and watered-down Windows.  Almost seems like the worst of both worlds.  I’d rather go straight Linux.

The original expectation was that Lindows would, by including WINE, the "Windows Emulator," run quite a bit of Windows software.  The vendor has backed off on that sort of claim, considerably. Lindows isn’t "not Linux," but it’s not a particularly mature distribution nor does it come from a particularly mature organization. Those are both issues, to be sure… BTW, to A.L. Meyers or anyone else, I am currently using Windows and SuSE Linux.  I want to try a different distribution on a new (clean) PC I will be getting.  I’d like to get my hands a little dirtier this time.  Any suggestions on a distribution?  I was thinking Slackware, but this Gentoo thing looks rather interesting, using some BSD technology.  Still leaning towards Slackware though.  I don’t think I could quite handle LFS (Linux From Scratch) yet.

My /great/ disappointment is that Patrick Volkerding didn’t adopt BSD Ports as the packaging system for Slackware /years ago/; that would almost certainly have improved the popularity of Slackware, substantially, patched over  some of the rifts between Linux and BSD communities, and led to there being a /lot/ more software readily included with the typical Slackware system. As far as I’m concerned, the long term choices are between:  a) Red Hat,  b) Debian,  c) Gentoo (or something with similar handling of Ports),  d) BSD systems. The other options are largely derivative of these, with SuSE being the other one that is most viable and that is almost not quite like any of the four I listed… LFS is only of value if you’re into doing everything by hand, which is handy if you’re building one-off firewalls, but if you’re trying to do anything /serious/, I’d start with one of (RHAT|Debian|Gentoo|BSD) and customize accordingly.  If you’re planning to sell "firewall on a floppy" products, you’d need to go with a "LFS" approach, but that’s not a particularly common scenario, certainly not for accountants on this newsgroup . — http://cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html "And the next  time you consider complaining that  running Lucid Emacs 19.05 via NFS from a remote  Linux machine in Paraguay doesn’t seem to get the background  colors right, you’ll know who  to thank."   — Matt Welsh

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  WalMart.com Does Lindows  Walmart is the first major retailer to sell personal computers  loaded with a new operating system called Lindows, as opposed to  the Microsoft Corporation’s Windows system installed on 95  percent of the world’s PCs.  Lindows is a simplified version of  Linux, a powerful but relatively complex operating system favored  by many computer programmers.  Walmart currently makes these bargain computers available only to  online shoppers at Walmart.com. Cythia Lin, a spokeswoman for the  company, says the decision to market to Linux fans occurred  earlier this year.  http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153  This could get VERY interesting. Indeed.  The M$ colossus is hollow and teetering.  Yours truly currently teaches the first introductory Linux class to end users at the Commercial Education Centre in Zug, Switzerland. Now that QuickBooks is coming out with a Mac version, and Mac OSX is a version of Unix, we may soon have QB for Linux. This also may relate to Intuit considering its internal Oracle servers part of its user’s network.

That they did a port of QB to OS-X does /not/ mean that it would be the slightest bit easier to deploy a version for Linux.  There are /no/ common GUI APIs between OS-X and any of the rest of the Unix world, as OS-X uses a uniquely-Apple-created set of graphical infrastructure that does not even vaguely resemble what runs on traditional Unixes or Linux. Furthermore, the "Oracle" bit seems somewhat disputable.  The last time I saw Intuit doing serious recruiting for the internal systems used to support things like CheckFree, they were looking for a bunch of AS/400 folk.  That looks a whole lot more like "IBM embedded" than it does like Oracle. They have adopted Informatica, which runs atop Oracle, as their ERP system, which certainly brings in a need for some Oracle stuff. But I wouldn’t attribute /any/ significance to that, in terms of what one would expect to be in their product line in the future. The /most/ interesting question is where Intuit heads to vis-a-vis Microsoft’s "Dot NET" strategy.   Intuit has long been aligning itself more and more closely with Microsoft, what with:  a) The near-take-over;  b) Their adoption of "Embedded Internet Explorer" as the way to     give a "webby" front end to Quicken. The natural next step might be to jump whole-hawg into .NET, although their adoption of some Apache Project components to implement some of the internals of TurboTax last year seemed an interesting departure from the usual "M$-Lackydom." I’m not sure it’s at all wise for Intuit to tie themselves forcibly to NET, and while some recent hiring looks for some people who know about it, it’s not evident that they are necessarily adopting it outright.  (Seems wise to me…) — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/sgml.html Rules of  the Evil  Overlord #157. "Whenever  plans are drawn  up that include a time-table, I’ll post-date  the completion 3 days after it’s actually  scheduled  to occur  and  not worry  too  much  if they  get stolen."  <http://www.eviloverlord.com/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  WalMart.com Does Lindows  Walmart is the first major retailer to sell personal computers loaded with a  new operating system called Lindows, as opposed to the Microsoft  Corporation’s Windows system installed on 95 percent of the world’s PCs.  Lindows is a simplified version of Linux, a powerful but relatively complex  operating system favored by many computer programmers.  Walmart currently makes these bargain computers available only to online  shoppers at Walmart.com. Cythia Lin, a spokeswoman for the company, says  the decision to market to Linux fans occurred earlier this year.  http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153  This could get VERY interesting. Indeed.  The M$ colossus is hollow and teetering.  Yours truly currently teaches the first introductory Linux class to end users at the Commercial Education Centre in Zug, Switzerland.

Now that QuickBooks is coming out with a Mac version, and Mac OSX is a version of Unix, we may soon have QB for Linux. This also may relate to Intuit considering its internal Oracle servers part of its user’s network.    Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540      Charter Member:  QuickBooks Advisory Council Lowest QB Prices   http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book  http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes  http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

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<snip http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153 This could get VERY interesting.

I looked into this Lindows.  I’m not so sure about that one.  Watered-down Linux and watered-down Windows.  Almost seems like the worst of both worlds. I’d rather go straight Linux. BTW, to A.L. Meyers or anyone else, I am currently using Windows and SuSE Linux.  I want to try a different distribution on a new (clean) PC I will be getting.  I’d like to get my hands a little dirtier this time.  Any suggestions on a distribution?  I was thinking Slackware, but this Gentoo thing looks rather interesting, using some BSD technology.  Still leaning towards Slackware though.  I don’t think I could quite handle LFS (Linux From Scratch) yet. — Todd Stephens

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  WalMart.com Does Lindows  By David Clements  WASHINGTON – Call it shrewd marketing, risky business, or a bargain, call it  whatever you choose, it may come as a surprise that the American retailing  giant, Walmart, is known in the computer industry for something other than  low prices on household goods.  Walmart is the first major retailer to sell personal computers loaded with a  new operating system called Lindows, as opposed to the Microsoft  Corporation’s Windows system installed on 95 percent of the world’s PCs.  Lindows is a simplified version of Linux, a powerful but relatively complex  operating system favored by many computer programmers.  <snip  Walmart currently makes these bargain computers available only to online  shoppers at Walmart.com. Cythia Lin, a spokeswoman for the company, says  the decision to market to Linux fans occurred earlier this year.  Wittingly or unwittingly, Walmart had already been marketing to them when  they offered computers with no operating system at all. Without the cost of  Windows’ licensing fees, these computers were very inexpensive. Many  computer users chose to install Linux on them instead of Windows. Ms. Lin  says the low cost and absence of Windows on the PCs made them an ideal  choice for the Linux community.  "In February we began testing this on our site and the response was really  tremendous," she said. "Some people found it on our site, they started  telling their friends, who told their friends, and word got out very  quickly. Sales of the PCs without the operating system were, and continue  to be, quite strong. We realized that we found an opportunity and it was  one that wanted to continue to explore."  Their exploration led them to an upstart operating system called Lindows.  Lindows is a new version of Linux that has the ability to run some programs  designed for the Windows operating system, without Windows installed.  <snip  http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153  This could get VERY interesting.

Indeed.  The M$ colossus is hollow and teetering.  Yours truly currently teaches the first introductory Linux class to end users at the Commercial Education Centre in Zug, Switzerland. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.

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WalMart.com Does Lindows By David Clements WASHINGTON – Call it shrewd marketing, risky business, or a bargain, call it whatever you choose, it may come as a surprise that the American retailing giant, Walmart, is known in the computer industry for something other than low prices on household goods. Walmart is the first major retailer to sell personal computers loaded with a new operating system called Lindows, as opposed to the Microsoft Corporation’s Windows system installed on 95 percent of the world’s PCs. Lindows is a simplified version of Linux, a powerful but relatively complex operating system favored by many computer programmers. <snip Walmart currently makes these bargain computers available only to online shoppers at Walmart.com. Cythia Lin, a spokeswoman for the company, says the decision to market to Linux fans occurred earlier this year. Wittingly or unwittingly, Walmart had already been marketing to them when they offered computers with no operating system at all. Without the cost of Windows’ licensing fees, these computers were very inexpensive. Many computer users chose to install Linux on them instead of Windows. Ms. Lin says the low cost and absence of Windows on the PCs made them an ideal choice for the Linux community. "In February we began testing this on our site and the response was really tremendous," she said. "Some people found it on our site, they started telling their friends, who told their friends, and word got out very quickly. Sales of the PCs without the operating system were, and continue to be, quite strong. We realized that we found an opportunity and it was one that wanted to continue to explore." Their exploration led them to an upstart operating system called Lindows. Lindows is a new version of Linux that has the ability to run some programs designed for the Windows operating system, without Windows installed. <snip http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/?articleID=3153 This could get VERY interesting. Jim Hudspeth

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Question:

Mike, in such a case speech is silver, silence is gold. Lucien

We hope to get to know you better if you would like that. Silence is not gold if it involves more profits.

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So basically what you are saying is that commercial transactions and balance sheet items do not always represent the just, fair or honest monetary amount attached to it.  Is that right?    That is right  Further the double entry system permits the manipulation in  sums. In theory of units units unified in the measurement  means could be accumulated while sums with diffident  purchasing powers could not be accumulated

The double entry system as such permits no manipulation at all. As pointed out previously, you simply have not understood the double entry system and are constantly confusing it with the choice of appropriate units in the context of the situation you are dealing with. The double entry system simple states that you must enter each transaction in two accounts with reversed signs. The double entry system does NOT require one to use monetary units, although this is common practice. Gold, silver and spices were common units of measure in Venice 500 years ago.  Accumulating values of purchased assets  in successive years  which are followed by differences in values of these assets  though their units and means of measurement are fixed during  these years lead to accumulated  inhomogeneous values. For  example if a car purchased in 1986 at a price of $(11000) and  another car in 1988 at a price of $(1100) we can not say that  the price of  both cars in 1990 is $( 21000) because the  models, the types and the purposes of both cars are different  but we can say that the price of  the cars in the  organization is $( 21000). Furthermore the price of the first  car in 1986 and the second in 1988 are different in the  historical cost from the price of both cars in 1990.The  historical measurement in this example is not identical to  reality and cash value is assumed to be fixed while currency  value differs from time to time.

Prices fluctuate if expressed in monetary or other units. Maybe I would exchage a car for 20 sheep under certain circumstances and the same car for 40 sheep under other circumstances. If you had a "sheep unit" book-keeping system (perhaps you would be in the sheep business and sheep would be acceptable tender), you would have a similar average valuation in sheep / car as in the above example with monetary units. There is nothing at all "wrong" with this.  Accumulating units which are measured by the same means is an  accumulation of the measurement itself which is possible ,  while accumulation units&#8217; specifications themselves is  not possible .  For example we cloud say that the number of  cubic meters in a building are (100) cubic meters, consist of  (50) cubic meters of bricks , (20) cubic meters of cement and  ( 30) cubic meters of sand .

There is nothing new or original. This is trite. We call it: "Don’t mix up apples and oranges." You cannot mix units of bricks, sand and cement. Would you trade the same number of sheep for sand as for cement?  In accumulating cash , it includes these specifications yet  it cancels them , for example ,  the building’s value is$  (10000) include the one hundred cubic meters with their three  units , which is not acceptable because it cancels the units’  specifications and its results are unreliable .

What difference would there be if you sold the building for sheep instead of cash? What would be unacceptable about that? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.

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(snip) Is there more important thing than the fact that companies are falling apart owing to the debit-credit concept?

Cite one company failing due to application of double entry methods. If you appreciate the US technical expertise, then by all means go there and earn at least a bachelor’s degree in accounting. Your’s truly has worked in the Middle East for a few years and visited your country (Egypt). Fortunately, the accountants I met from your country had the basic accounting knowledge and training which you lack. Therefore I conclude that you are by no means representative for your country’s accounting community. Enterprises fail for other reasons, e. g. Enron by lying, cheating and stealing. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": World Trade Center Delta Force Qaddafi Cocaine Smuggle assassination DES

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We appreciate the Americans and their scientific progress.A lot of people who got their doctorate and master degrees in all sciences got them from the U.S.A. You host people from all over the world in your beloved country. We don’t waste time; please wait till you see the whole picture is complete .our objective is to maintain investments and to present advantages to the society and accountants Is there more important thing than the fact that companies are falling apart owing to the debit-credit concept?

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In fact you don’t waste your time neither do we .We discovered the truth in the double entry system .Why don’t you want to see the truth? How come you don’t pay attention to damage especially when a friend warns you (We consider ourselves friends for all accountants) Here is a simple example The changes in the prices levels : Prices rise in the times of inflation and decrease in the times of deflation. They rise and decrease from a unit to another and units are not unified in the rising or the decreasing of prices. For example, the prices of some goods do not rise even if they are demanded a lot, also the prices of some units are not affected even if their supplying is increasing. For example the demand on salt  is not affected whether the prices are rising or decreasing. Some goods are influenced by the times of inflation and deflations and some other goods are influence by them in smaller degree while some goods are not influenced  at all. While the general trend of prices level is the average of that trend of prices in general during a certain period .There is no doubt that the rising of the prices levels makes the measure which is based on cash basis incorrect because it is a historical measure that does not fit with the changes in the prices levels during the measured period which cause the liquidation of organization. To illustrate that point more we take the organization’s assets as an example as follows: – Purchasing assets for the organization in different periods besides the rising of prices leads to non homogenized depreciation. Moreover, the accumulation of values of different measures of assets is not possible from the logical and arithmetical aspects – Measuring revenues and the costs of obtaining them in the measured accounting period causes accumulating non homogenized cash sums due to the different measurement units of both revenues and expenses. Further more the measurement units of expenses are different although the unit is the same because the time periods are different as a result of the rising of unit price from time to time so the historical accumulation is not consistent with the present value and the market prices . – Its difficult to compare among the projects which are unified in one activity such as the construction activity owing to the difference of values in the historical units although the activity and the specifications are the same yet, the historical value of periods of time which are transferred to current values are not the same which make it impossible to compare among projects and measure them . – Even in similar projects if a project starts in a date before another project it would be impossible to compare between them because the assets of the first project are less in cost than the second project which means that the first project realizes profit that is more than the second project’s profit so the comparison would not be valuable. – Applying the historical cost principle only leads to the distribution of a part of the organization’s capital within the profit. If  the current value is not used in the assets’ depreciation besides the historical value that would lead to a false increase in the distributable profit of the organization – The rising of prices level leads to the repaying of the creditors money with a value that is less than the real value of debts at the time of recovering them .For example, the external authorities which obtained goods at a certain date and repaid the value of these goods at a later date where the prices value increased by 10% ,in this case repaying would  represent a loss by 10%  to the organization . – Purchasing or selling assets does not appear in a correct form that could be compared in two similar organizations which are unified in one activity as profits made from selling one of the assets are not realized until selling is completed. While this asset belongs to previous accounting periods so these capital profits are posted to another period because they are not realized unless assets are sold in the measured period .

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now I understand. They are not simply trying to replace accounting. They also are trying to replace economics and reform human nature. Much of basic economics deals with supply and demand, where substantially identical items are offered for sale and purchase at very different prices. Of course, we all but instinctively understand that this leaves overly optimistic buyers and sellers not able to make market price exchanges (regardless of honesty). Now a simple (?) nonsensical (!) system will repeal these unexplainable (?) events? Of course, economics & real world accounting also deal with vast amounts of continuous substitution of different products to satisfy  the same and different needs. Now all we need to do is agree on the character of a new unit and all these problems and results disappear. What ivory tower bull. Only good mental health people can help them. What is more important is what is the matter with the rest of us (especially me)? Why waste time answering nonsense by those not really identifying themselves, showing credentials or showing any understanding of either what they talk about, accounting, economics or human nature? Why especially do this during the tax season peak, unless we cannot help responding to the red flag of newsgroup corruption?

It is now confirmed that your filter is not working. The importance of theory of units to you is that it saves 50% of the expenses. We have identified ourselves and our credentials twice .       Fax : (00202)-5082727 Tel 00202)-5084183 & (00202)-5050648                    Tel 00202)-5050649      P.O box 157 – P.C 11571 – Mokattam post – Cairo – Egypt

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this kind of a thread? Why do we react to these trolls?  Why do we lack the self discipline to focus on subjects that matter?

For a kind of fun entertainment and carousing. Our profession usually is a wee bit of the serious side. Some less organized souls would even claim dull. And there is nothing new to this. Don’t forget that seen from one angle we even have a kind of a resident pet troll in the the NG.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

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If anybody thinks our work has real value and relevance, to members of the real economy, then why do we waste our mental powers on this kind of a thread? Why do we react to these trolls?  Why do we lack the self discipline to focus on subjects that matter?

Why did you lack the self discipline to focus on accounting, and instead post about the temptations of "foreign women?"  :-) Part of the story certainly is that some degree of amusement and frivolity may be gained in the process of making fun of things that are silly. — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/internet.html "Never insult seven men, when all you’re packin’ is a six gun" — Zane Gray

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So basically what you are saying is that commercial transactions and balance sheet items do not always represent the just, fair or honest monetary amount attached to it.  Is that right?  

That is right Further the double entry system permits the manipulation in sums. In theory of units units unified in the measurement means could be accumulated while sums with diffident purchasing powers could not be accumulated Accumulating values of purchased assets  in successive years which are followed by differences in values of these assets though their units and means of measurement are fixed during these years lead to accumulated  inhomogeneous values. For example if a car purchased in 1986 at a price of $(11000) and another car in 1988 at a price of $(1100) we can not say that the price of  both cars in 1990 is $( 21000) because the models, the types and the purposes of both cars are different but we can say that the price of  the cars in the organization is $( 21000). Furthermore the price of the first car in 1986 and the second in 1988 are different in the historical cost from the price of both cars in 1990.The historical measurement in this example is not identical to reality and cash value is assumed to be fixed while currency value differs from time to time. Accumulating units which are measured by the same means is an accumulation of the measurement itself which is possible , while accumulation units&#8217; specifications themselves is not possible . For example we cloud say that the number of cubic meters in a building are (100) cubic meters, consist of (50) cubic meters of bricks , (20) cubic meters of cement and ( 30) cubic meters of sand . In accumulating cash , it includes these specifications yet it cancels them , for example ,  the building’s value is$ (10000) include the one hundred cubic meters with their three units , which is not acceptable because it cancels the units’ specifications and its results are unreliable .

Response:

Why waste time answering nonsense by those not really identifying themselves, showing credentials or showing any understanding of either what they talk about, accounting, economics or human nature?

No real reason. But many of the gentle readers, sometimes yours truly included, are suckers for trolls.   http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/crackpot.html#troll   http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/anonpost.html    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So basically what you are saying is that commercial transactions and balance sheet items do not always represent the just, fair or honest monetary amount attached to it.  Is that right?  You would want some sort of incorruptible "unit" value?  So if I have 4 cows and say that they are worth $1,000 each the "units" could support or dispel the value.  If these are dry heifers they are probably worth less than $1,000 if they are good milkers they could be worth $2,000 each.  Units or not how would this be resolved?  You need an honest "auditor" to verify that what I’m saying is true.  Those who want to mislead with financial statements would still have an easy time of it.  The problem with money not representing things accurately is not inherent to money, it’s due to crooks and their accountants who willfully misrepresent and falsify documents to perpetrate fraud.  How would new "units" change that?  Even if you were to use the atomic weight multiplied by atomic age, the molecular structure of the asset would still arrive at some sort of money by another name.  The dark underside of human behaviour would still be there.  No matter how you ponder the imponderable you would not resolve that fundamental flaw of human character.  It’s been unsuccessfully debated since the beginning of the reasoning logical man.  Mind is a complex matter.  The corrupt mind is even more complex.

Now I understand. They are not simply trying to replace accounting. They also are trying to replace economics and reform human nature. Much of basic economics deals with supply and demand, where substantially identical items are offered for sale and purchase at very different prices. Of course, we all but instinctively understand that this leaves overly optimistic buyers and sellers not able to make market price exchanges (regardless of honesty). Now a simple (?) nonsensical (!) system will repeal these unexplainable (?) events? Of course, economics & real world accounting also deal with vast amounts of continuous substitution of different products to satisfy  the same and different needs. Now all we need to do is agree on the character of a new unit and all these problems and results disappear. What ivory tower bull. Only good mental health people can help them. What is more important is what is the matter with the rest of us (especially me)? Why waste time answering nonsense by those not really identifying themselves, showing credentials or showing any understanding of either what they talk about, accounting, economics or human nature? Why especially do this during the tax season peak, unless we cannot help responding to the red flag of newsgroup corruption? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reasoning behind these posts is: 1-Protect investments and consequently increase the national income. 2-Use unit  in measurement and currency in exchange so that accounting reconcile with the actual commercial transactions. 3-extract the closing accounts  and the balance sheet and recognizing net profit ( in terms of quantities and sums) at any time  instead of waiting till the end of the financial year to extract this data. 4-The self-assurance of the accountants in themselves and in data to 100%. 5-Canceling the controller’s reservation on the balance sheet so that his report that the balance sheet is 100% accurate and reflects the real fact of the organization would be reliable. These are the purposes behind these posts and we are willing to answer any question and to help in achieving these purposes.

   Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices   http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book  http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes  http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Mike, in such a case speech is silver, silence is gold. Lucien

Response:

What ivory tower bull. Only good mental health people can help them. What is more important is what is the matter with the rest of us (especially me)? Why waste time answering nonsense by those not really identifying themselves, showing credentials or showing any understanding of either what they talk about, accounting, economics or human nature?

That’s right.   This episode shows that we have a certain mental disease ourselves.  Or, at least, reveals our activities within alt.accounting is for our mental amusement, and lacks purpose. If anybody thinks our work has real value and relevance, to members of the real economy, then why do we waste our mental powers on this kind of a thread? Why do we react to these trolls?  Why do we lack the self discipline to focus on subjects that matter? Todd

Response:

Because it’s amusing.  Todd said for them to "Go away.  You’re wasting everybody’s time."  The fact is they’re wasting no one’s time, we are wasting our own time, no one is forced to read or reply.  The posts are always well identified and the poster doesn’t change his sender address every other day.  It’s really up to anybody to read or not, or to reply or not, so they can’t blame others for wasted time.  Some have said that they were busy doing taxes… oh yeah???  If some are busy doing taxes what are they doing on an alt. newsgroup chitchatting and reading, not to mention replying to these postings?  They can’t be all that busy or else they wouldn’t be here period!  So I say if people don’t feel like reading it they should just skip these post… I don’t think that we will find the origins of the universe in these posts.  It’s like the Sunday Time, it weighs a ton, who reads it end to end?  But we don’t complain because it’s full of ads or essays that don’t interest us, we just flip the pages for what we find interesting or amusing. As I said I read (some) of them for entertainment.  One has to admit they are promoting all kinds of replies and points of view so they have accomplished an exchange of philosophical musings if nothing else.  I doubt that GAAP will be revamped by any of this mumbo jumbo!  I guess it’s like The National Enquirer… nobody reads it but it’s the most widely circulated and read magazine in the USA…. go figure. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What ivory tower bull. Only good mental health people can help them. What is more important is what is the matter with the rest of us (especially me)? Why waste time answering nonsense by those not really identifying themselves, showing credentials or showing any understanding of either what they talk about, accounting, economics or human nature? That’s right.   This episode shows that we have a certain mental disease ourselves.  Or, at least, reveals our activities within alt.accounting is for our mental amusement, and lacks purpose. If anybody thinks our work has real value and relevance, to members of the real economy, then why do we waste our mental powers on this kind of a thread? Why do we react to these trolls?  Why do we lack the self discipline to focus on subjects that matter? Todd

Response:

FWIW the ancient Romans originally used small livestock as money. The word "pecuniary" has the same origin as the Latin "pecunia" – "pecus" = livestock, especially small livestock. In Italian, "pecoro" = ram. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": genetic Soviet assassination nuclear Khaddafi sentiero luminoso Sharon

Response:

The reasoning behind these posts is: 1-Protect investments and consequently increase the national income. 2-Use unit  in measurement and currency in exchange so that accounting reconcile with the actual commercial transactions. 3-extract the closing accounts  and the balance sheet and recognizing net profit ( in terms of quantities and sums) at any time  instead of waiting till the end of the financial year to extract this data. 4-The self-assurance of the accountants in themselves and in data to 100%. 5-Canceling the controller’s reservation on the balance sheet so that his report that the balance sheet is 100% accurate and reflects the real fact of the organization would be reliable. These are the purposes behind these posts and we are willing to answer any question and to help in achieving these purposes.

Response:

So basically what you are saying is that commercial transactions and balance sheet items do not always represent the just, fair or honest monetary amount attached to it.  Is that right?  You would want some sort of incorruptible "unit" value?  So if I have 4 cows and say that they are worth $1,000 each the "units" could support or dispel the value.  If these are dry heifers they are probably worth less than $1,000 if they are good milkers they could be worth $2,000 each.  Units or not how would this be resolved?  You need an honest "auditor" to verify that what I’m saying is true.  Those who want to mislead with financial statements would still have an easy time of it.  The problem with money not representing things accurately is not inherent to money, it’s due to crooks and their accountants who willfully misrepresent and falsify documents to perpetrate fraud.  How would new "units" change that?  Even if you were to use the atomic weight multiplied by atomic age, the molecular structure of the asset would still arrive at some sort of money by another name.  The dark underside of human behaviour would still be there.  No matter how you ponder the imponderable you would not resolve that fundamental flaw of human character.  It’s been unsuccessfully debated since the beginning of the reasoning logical man.  Mind is a complex matter.  The corrupt mind is even more complex. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reasoning behind these posts is: 1-Protect investments and consequently increase the national income. 2-Use unit  in measurement and currency in exchange so that accounting reconcile with the actual commercial transactions. 3-extract the closing accounts  and the balance sheet and recognizing net profit ( in terms of quantities and sums) at any time  instead of waiting till the end of the financial year to extract this data. 4-The self-assurance of the accountants in themselves and in data to 100%. 5-Canceling the controller’s reservation on the balance sheet so that his report that the balance sheet is 100% accurate and reflects the real fact of the organization would be reliable. These are the purposes behind these posts and we are willing to answer any question and to help in achieving these purposes.

Response:

The nature of the unit is defined as the general overall shape of the unit which is common for all units of the same kind.For example,when we say that this is a blue pen so its nature is blue but it is not enough to recognize the unit.Although units could be unified in nature but they are different in classification,For example when we say that unit’s nature is wood but at the same time there are many types of wood such as,red wood,compressed wood and beech wood .From the unit’s nature we can determine the measurement means of this unit without referring to its specifications.

Response:

                                                     For example,when we say that this is a blue pen

When you say, "blue pen," do you mean the casing is blue or that the ink is blue or that the pen is depressed? easy2000

Response:

What the hell does it matter?  You’re arguing with yourself being that you still want to use "units".  Pretty soon you’ll be debating whether or not we should use the decimal system instead of the binary one.  Be they (your units) plug nickels, US dollars, pesos or rubbles they are all fairly well kept in check and balance by speculators and traders, supply and demand. Every now and then it can get a bit out of whack but nor for very long. The value of any currency vis a vis any other currency takes into account many factors, productivity, national debt, political stability, monetary policy and so on.  You’re trying to reinvent the wheel. You could always use chickens.  Then when your system falls apart you could read the chicken entrails and blame the collapse on the price of rotten rhubarb in Russia. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The nature of the unit is defined as the general overall shape of the unit which is common for all units of the same kind.For example,when we say that this is a blue pen so its nature is blue but it is not enough to recognize the unit.Although units could be unified in nature but they are different in classification,For example when we say that unit’s nature is wood but at the same time there are many types of wood such as,red wood,compressed wood and beech wood .From the unit’s nature we can determine the measurement means of this unit without referring to its specifications.

Response:

Question: which is most important, money or units? Answer: neither. Units of money are important. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Rumsfeld terrorist Rule Psix World Trade Center KGB SDI FSF Ft. Meade

Response:

                                                     For example,when we say that this is a blue pen When you say, "blue pen," do you mean the casing is blue or that the ink is blue or that the pen is depressed? easy2000

May be you want the pen to be depressed .May be the intellectual flaws of the double entry system cause that depression.

Response:

Question: which is most important, money or units? Answer: neither. Units of money are important.

 Money and units are integrated and inseparable ; the unit is used for measurement while money is used for exchange

Response:

What the hell does it matter?  You’re arguing with yourself being that you still want to use "units".  Pretty soon you’ll be debating whether or not we should use the decimal system instead of the binary one.  Be they (your units) plug nickels, US dollars, pesos or rubbles they are all fairly well kept in check and balance by speculators and traders, supply and demand. Every now and then it can get a bit out of whack but nor for very long. The value of any currency vis a vis any other currency takes into account many factors, productivity, national debt, political stability, monetary policy and so on.  

That is right and all these factors represent units .currency has no value without the units and it is not a measurement means by itself (you concluded that by yourself) and that what theory of units supports. You’re trying to reinvent the wheel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You could always use chickens.  Then when your system falls apart you could read the chicken entrails and blame the collapse on the price of rotten rhubarb in Russia. John The nature of the unit is defined as the general overall shape of the unit which is common for all units of the same kind.For example,when we say that this is a blue pen so its nature is blue but it is not enough to recognize the unit.Although units could be unified in nature but they are different in classification,For example when we say that unit’s nature is wood but at the same time there are many types of wood such as,red wood,compressed wood and beech wood .From the unit’s nature we can determine the measurement means of this unit without referring to its specifications.

Response:

Ultimately what do the units represent?  Doesn’t it all boil down to the same thing? Hours in the sunshine in company of loved ones would be the ultimate.  This is the part that I don’t understand, money means nothing, we all know that… we can’t eat it, it’s just paper.  Give me hot sun on my bare skin any day.  Oh jeesh I shouldn’t have read that romance post… now I’m getting hot.  I think it’s all referenced to monetary units because that is an accepted and valid (?) reference.  Oil companies use reserves.  These things are valid units, the price goes up and down and who knows the future unit value. The Dutch had Tulipomania sometime in the 1400’s or something like that.  I’m a bit confused as to the reasoning behind it all.  Please don’t ask me to read earlier posts on the subject.  The list is way too long and forked.  I only expect to live another 70 years at best. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What the hell does it matter?  You’re arguing with yourself being that you still want to use "units".  Pretty soon you’ll be debating whether or not we should use the decimal system instead of the binary one.  Be they (your units) plug nickels, US dollars, pesos or rubbles they are all fairly well kept in check and balance by speculators and traders, supply and demand. Every now and then it can get a bit out of whack but nor for very long. The value of any currency vis a vis any other currency takes into account many factors, productivity, national debt, political stability, monetary policy and so on. That is right and all these factors represent units .currency has no value without the units and it is not a measurement means by itself (you concluded that by yourself) and that what theory of units supports. You’re trying to reinvent the wheel. You could always use chickens.  Then when your system falls apart you could read the chicken entrails and blame the collapse on the price of rotten rhubarb in Russia. John The nature of the unit is defined as the general overall shape of the unit which is common for all units of the same kind.For example,when we say that this is a blue pen so its nature is blue but it is not enough to recognize the unit.Although units could be unified in nature but they are different in classification,For example when we say that unit’s nature is wood but at the same time there are many types of wood such as,red wood,compressed wood and beech wood .From the unit’s nature we can determine the measurement means of this unit without referring to its specifications.

Response:

Question:

Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s just say that I am in the business of selling a very "specific" type of accounting package on Ebay.  By specific I mean something made for a very specific industry, like carpentry.  I only have about 2-3 competitors on Ebay and I know who they are (our ads are very similar and show up in similar places).  No problem, competition is good. Anyway, the weird thing is that my competitor has just created a new username on Ebay and has bid on one of my products. How do I know it is him/her?  Let’s just say the guy is a moron and used a similar alias as well as the same town/location which just so happens to be a very small town in the midwest.  Trust me, it’s him…the account he created is less that 3 days old and he just so happens to be interested in this very rare (and expensive) program. My question, can I refuse to sell?

Response:

Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason).

And then you can block the bidder. Ben — I’m not just a number.  To many, I’m known as a string…

Response:

and then report him to Ebay along with his other id for Auction interference. HE may also be emailing (using Ebay’s email feature) your bidders as well to have them retract or bid on his own auctions. Suggest watching your auctions carefully and take note of any "bid retractions".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason). And then you can block the bidder. Ben — I’m not just a number.  To many, I’m known as a string…

Response:

Why is this auction interference?  Maybe he wants to look at the actual software.  Large corps buy each other’s products all the time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and then report him to Ebay along with his other id for Auction interference. HE may also be emailing (using Ebay’s email feature) your bidders as well to have them retract or bid on his own auctions. Suggest watching your auctions carefully and take note of any "bid retractions". Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason). And then you can block the bidder. Ben — I’m not just a number.  To many, I’m known as a string…

Response:

My question, can I refuse to sell?

Cancel the bid –  http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?CancelBidShow Block the bidder – http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?bidderblocklogin

Response:

Let’s just say that I am in the business of selling a very "specific" type of accounting package on Ebay.  By specific I mean something made for a very specific industry, like carpentry.  I only have about 2-3 competitors on Ebay and I know who they are (our ads are very similar and show up in similar places).  No problem, competition is good. Anyway, the weird thing is that my competitor has just created a new username on Ebay and has bid on one of my products. How do I know it is him/her?  Let’s just say the guy is a moron and used a similar alias as well as the same town/location which just so happens to be a very small town in the midwest.  Trust me, it’s him…the account he created is less that 3 days old and he just so happens to be interested in this very rare (and expensive) program. My question, can I refuse to sell?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Let’s just say that I am in the business of selling a very "specific" type of accounting package on Ebay.  By specific I mean something made for a very specific industry, like carpentry.  I only have about 2-3 competitors on Ebay and I know who they are (our ads are very similar and show up in similar places).  No problem, competition is good. Anyway, the weird thing is that my competitor has just created a new username on Ebay and has bid on one of my products. How do I know it is him/her?  Let’s just say the guy is a moron and used a similar alias as well as the same town/location which just so happens to be a very small town in the midwest.  Trust me, it’s him…the account he created is less that 3 days old and he just so happens to be interested in this very rare (and expensive) program. My question, can I refuse to sell?

I am afraid it is a ploy to get me negative feedback (since we are competitors).

Response:

Question:

Not you!   On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:49:28 GMT, Gidget <gidgetoli…@hotmail.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In article <aaaa2ucv95hto806v1ai2tgcdcvtmol…@4ax.com>, >dreamspinn…@yahoo.com says… >> Hmmmm…how did she get around my killfile? >> On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:41:43 GMT, Gidget <gidgetoli…@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >In article <9d2a2uoem7gqt88c30abnu1ieja8nrn…@4ax.com>, >> >dreamspinn…@yahoo.com says… >> >> Bitch.  Women like you give us all a bad name. >> >But she gets you every time, doesn’t she. >I’m in your killfile??  HOW COME??  You said everyone was >your friend ’cause of the holidays and all…

———- Dreamspinner3 Bow-Wow: http://members.tripod.com/allaboutdogs/ Christmas Dreams: http://members.tripod.com/joyfulchristmas/ Personal Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/ Surf Minnesota: http://www.surfminnesota.net/

Response:

BWWHAHAHA!  Oh…hee, hee, hee! On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:20:02 GMT, "Alexa" <alexa_hallo…@hotmail.com> wrote: >Forgive me ALL, but I can’t hold it back any longer, and God forgive me. >Angela. my dear….FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

———- Dreamspinner3 Bow-Wow: http://members.tripod.com/allaboutdogs/ Christmas Dreams: http://members.tripod.com/joyfulchristmas/ Personal Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/ Surf Minnesota: http://www.surfminnesota.net/

Response:

Angela A Williams  (angela_a_willi…@talk21.com) wrote: >all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant look after their children in the >same way we women can. its obvious to anyone with half a brain that its the >mother who should take the kids, she has the nurturing ability. all men do is >complicate the situation, it would be better all round so long as they didnt get >involved with the parenting side.

Sorry to hear your growing up experience with men was so poor. CJ

Response:

On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:21:01 GMT, Angela A Williams (angela_a_willi…@talk21.com) wrote: >all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant look after their children in the >same way we women can. its obvious to anyone with half a brain that its the >mother who should take the kids, she has the nurturing ability. all men do is >complicate the situation, it would be better all round so long as they didnt get >involved with the parenting side. then again we are dealing with men and they >just never catch on. >my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was such a looser she managed to >get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she was hit on her face by one of the >children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i was there and could be a >witness to say he had hit her. at least the jerks out of her life for now.

It’s not every day you see someone publicly admit to perjury. — "I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use." – Galileo

Response:

Hmmmm…how did she get around my killfile? On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:41:43 GMT, Gidget <gidgetoli…@hotmail.com> wrote: >In article <9d2a2uoem7gqt88c30abnu1ieja8nrn…@4ax.com>, >dreamspinn…@yahoo.com says… >> Bitch.  Women like you give us all a bad name. >But she gets you every time, doesn’t she.

———- Dreamspinner3 Bow-Wow: http://members.tripod.com/allaboutdogs/ Christmas Dreams: http://members.tripod.com/joyfulchristmas/ Personal Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/ Surf Minnesota: http://www.surfminnesota.net/

Response:

> Hmmmm…how did she get around my killfile?

I am pretty sure she is using different mail servers, and from what I understand, you can only kill file that name when it matches the mail server that she used when you killed her. (Don’t that make you have thoughts?)..:) Alexa*

Response:

Forgive me ALL, but I can’t hold it back any longer, and God forgive me. Angela. my dear….FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant look after their children in the > same way we women can. its obvious to anyone with half a brain that its the > mother who should take the kids, she has the nurturing ability. all men do is > complicate the situation, it would be better all round so long as they didnt get > involved with the parenting side. then again we are dealing with men and they > just never catch on. > my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was such a looser she managed to > get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she was hit on her face by one of the > children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i was there and could be a > witness to say he had hit her. at least the jerks out of her life for now. > Angela

Response:

Dreamspinner3 <dreamspinn…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:aaaa2ucv95hto806v1ai2tgcdcvtmolkcd@4ax.com… > Hmmmm…how did she get around my killfile?

I don’t know.  She hasn’t gotten around mine in some time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:41:43 GMT, Gidget <gidgetoli…@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >In article <9d2a2uoem7gqt88c30abnu1ieja8nrn…@4ax.com>, > >dreamspinn…@yahoo.com says… > >> Bitch.  Women like you give us all a bad name. > >But she gets you every time, doesn’t she. > ———- > Dreamspinner3 > Bow-Wow: http://members.tripod.com/allaboutdogs/ > Christmas Dreams: http://members.tripod.com/joyfulchristmas/ > Personal Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/ > Surf Minnesota: http://www.surfminnesota.net/

Response:

Sometimes I just can’t tell the difference between Angela and Amy….they both sound excatly the same to me. Doll "Angela A Williams" <angela_a_willi…@talk21.com> wrote in message news:hH7V7.8164$XC5.9962@www.newsranger.com… > all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant

look after their children in the > same way we women can. its obvious to anyone

with half a brain that its the > mother who should take the kids, she has the

nurturing ability. all men do is > complicate the situation, it would be better all

round so long as they didnt get > involved with the parenting side. then again we

are dealing with men and they > just never catch on. > my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was

such a looser she managed to > get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she

was hit on her face by one of the > children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i

was there and could be a > witness to say he had hit her. at least the

jerks out of her life for now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Angela

Response:

On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:54:20 +1030, "Doll" <ThisNYd…@excite.com> wrote: >Sometimes I just can’t tell the difference between >Angela and Amy….they both sound excatly the same >to me. >Doll

If they are not the same person, they certainly share the same mental disorders. Kendricks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Angela A Williams" <angela_a_willi…@talk21.com> >wrote in message >news:hH7V7.8164$XC5.9962@www.newsranger.com… >> all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant >look after their children in the >> same way we women can. its obvious to anyone >with half a brain that its the >> mother who should take the kids, she has the >nurturing ability. all men do is >> complicate the situation, it would be better all >round so long as they didnt get >> involved with the parenting side. then again we >are dealing with men and they >> just never catch on. >> my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was >such a looser she managed to >> get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she >was hit on her face by one of the >> children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i >was there and could be a >> witness to say he had hit her. at least the >jerks out of her life for now. >> Angela

Response:

all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant look after their children in the same way we women can. its obvious to anyone with half a brain that its the mother who should take the kids, she has the nurturing ability. all men do is complicate the situation, it would be better all round so long as they didnt get involved with the parenting side. then again we are dealing with men and they just never catch on. my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was such a looser she managed to get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she was hit on her face by one of the children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i was there and could be a witness to say he had hit her. at least the jerks out of her life for now. Angela

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Bitch.  Women like you give us all a bad name. On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:21:01 GMT, Angela A Williams (angela_a_willi…@talk21.com) wrote: >all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant look after their children in the >same way we women can. its obvious to anyone with half a brain that its the >mother who should take the kids, she has the nurturing ability. all men do is >complicate the situation, it would be better all round so long as they didnt get >involved with the parenting side. then again we are dealing with men and they >just never catch on. >my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was such a looser she managed to >get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she was hit on her face by one of the >children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i was there and could be a >witness to say he had hit her. at least the jerks out of her life for now. >Angela

———- Dreamspinner3 Bow-Wow: http://members.tripod.com/allaboutdogs/ Christmas Dreams: http://members.tripod.com/joyfulchristmas/ Personal Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/ Surf Minnesota: http://www.surfminnesota.net/

Response:

47% or 1.3 million non-custodial mothers totally default on support. 27% or 3.0 million non-custodial fathers totally default on support. –Technical Analysis Paper No. 42 – U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services – Office of Income Security Policy. ————————————————————————— – ——- In summary, children from homes where the biological father is denied visitation and access are: 5 times more likely to commit suicide 32 times more likely to run away 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders 14 times more likely to commit rape 9 times more likely to drop out of school 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances 9 times more likely to end up in a state operated institution 20 times more likely to end up in prison. 8. Fathers’ Bonding with Family and Child Support Default Rate 90% of fathers with joint custody pay the support due. 79% of fathers with visitation privileges pay the support due. 45% of fathers with no visitation pay the support due. — 1988 Census "Child Support and Alimony: 1989 Series P-60, No. 173 p.6-7. and U.S. General Accounting Office Report" GAO/HRD-92-39FS January,1992. "Angela A Williams" <angela_a_wili…@talk21.com> wrote in message news:0I7V7.8165$XC5.9966@www.newsranger.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant look after their children in the > same way we women can. its obvious to anyone with half a brain that its the > mother who should take the kids, she has the nurturing ability. all men do is > complicate the situation, it would be better all round so long as they didnt get > involved with the parenting side. then again we are dealing with men and they > just never catch on. > my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was such a looser she managed to > get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she was hit on her face by one of the > children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i was there and could be a > witness to say he had hit her. at least the jerks out of her life for now. > Angela

"Angela A Williams" <angela_a_willi…@talk21.com> wrote in message news:hH7V7.8164$XC5.9962@www.newsranger.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> all men are. thats why we get custody, men cant look after their children in the > same way we women can. its obvious to anyone with half a brain that its the > mother who should take the kids, she has the nurturing ability. all men do is > complicate the situation, it would be better all round so long as they didnt get > involved with the parenting side. then again we are dealing with men and they > just never catch on. > my friend got custody of her kids. her hubby was such a looser she managed to > get the jerk jailed for abuse one day when she was hit on her face by one of the > children throwing a toy, as luck would have it i was there and could be a > witness to say he had hit her. at least the jerks out of her life for now. > Angela

Response:

Question:

I’m sounding like a broken record, but you can estimate the total costs for a well-utilized (200-hours or greater per year) airplane as 4x the fuel cost.  So the Arrow is about a $100/hour bird not including capital costs. Anything more detailed depends on a wide variety of factors such as location, time of pilot(s), condition of airplane, how much avionics it has, how it is flown, etc. Annuals (inspection only) will run around $1200.  Throw in an oil change, spark plug cleaning, wheel bearing repack, airframe lube, and the other stuff usually done with an annual and you’ll probably be close to $2K.  Add any discrepencies to this. Landing gear is very simple and about as trouble-free as any retract.  Much simpler than the Cessna systems. The Arrow is a great basic retract.  You get more utility for less maintenance in the 235-hp fixed-gears (e.g., Dakota or 182) but if you want folding wheels in a simple and relatively easy-to-maintain plane, it is pretty hard to beat the Arrow.  Virtually every mechanic has seen hundreds of Cherokees and tens of Arrows. – Mark

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I am considering the purchase of an Arrow.  Anyone have the numbers for annual, etc?  Also how much of a problem is/are the landing gear? Also, what about operating costs?         Thanks in advance         Jerry

Response:

Have owned 1968 Arrow since 1973, with well kept records of all expenses. 2500 hours put on the Arrow over these years. Total comes to $70/hour which includes all fixed expenses, hanger, insurance, annuals, non scheduled maint., avionics maint.,and fuel. If you would like more info:

Response:

Have owned 1968 Arrow since 1973, with well kept records of all expenses.

My club has a similar vintage Arrow.  Ours flies about 300 hours a year, and the club has had it for many years. Total comes to $70/hour which includes all fixed expenses, hanger, insurance, annuals, non scheduled maint., avionics maint.,and fuel.

You’re doing better than we are.  We come up with about $85/tach-hr, which includes something like $11/hr towards engine overhaul reserves.  That not counting fixed costs like insurance, debt service, and tiedown; the way we do our accounting makes it hard to work that into the hourly figure, but another $3-4/hr wouldn’t be an unreasonable guess for that.  If the plane were flown by just one person who did some basic work themselves (oil changes, etc) and gave it a bit more TLC than even the best intentioned 30 or so club members who fly it, your $70 figure seems plausable.

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I’m not sure what my hourly costs have been, but I can tell you that last year’s annual cost $1500 with essentially nothing wrong with the plane. This year’s annual cost $20,300, which included an overhaul by G&N to new limits (my engine had 1650 smoh and had a camshaft causing metal in the oil), copper battery cable, new ELT, battery box drain tube, new oil and fuel lines firewall foreward, landing gear AD stud replacement, prop and governor inspection and reseal, one cowl latch replacement, quick oil drain replacement, vacuum air inlet filter, air induction filter, alternater belt, the cost of the inspection and a/d compliance, and engine removal and reinstallation.  The overhaul was 13,700 (I had a 100 dollar credit because I had already installed a new starter), and the labor total was about 85 hours at 50/hour.  The remainder was parts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have owned 1968 Arrow since 1973, with well kept records of all expenses. 2500 hours put on the Arrow over these years. Total comes to $70/hour which includes all fixed expenses, hanger, insurance, annuals, non scheduled maint., avionics maint.,and fuel. If you would like more info:

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This questionnaire is to be used for the purpose of comparing accounting careers with private industry businesses and public accounting firms including, but not limited to the "big five."  The information will be analyzed and summarized in a report that I have to do in a communications class.     This questionnaire is also being used for interviewing purposes, so if you don’t feel like answering all of the questions just skip to numbers 11 and 12.  Your time and information are appreciated.  Thank you. YOUR NAME: 1. What is your highest level of education?        __Associate     __Bachelor __Masters    __Other 2. What certifications do you hold?     __None __CA       __CPA __CMA             __Other 3.      Do you have work experience in  ___public accounting,   ___private industry accounting, or ___both? 4. Do you currently work in   ___public accounting,   ___private industry accounting,            or ___both? 5.  On average, approximately how many hours do the full-time accountants in your business work per week?   ____Under 40     ____46 to 50    ____40 to 45            ____over 50 6.  Does your place of business hire accountants with associate degrees? __Yes      __No 7. If applicable, what kind of advancement opportunities does your company offer to employees with an  associate degree in accounting? 8.  In your place of business, what is the average starting salary for an accountant with an associate degree? ______Below $16 thousand     ______26 to 30 thousand ______16 to 20 thousand            ______31 to 35 thousand ______21 to 25 thousand            ______over 35 thousand 9.  What kind of salary cap can an employee with an associate degree expect while working for your company? 10. What benefits does your company offer its employees? Retirement __Vacation   __Medical  __Dental                __Vision        __Other 11.  Why did you choose your particular industry?  If applicable, please list the advantages or benefits that aided     you in your decision. 12.  When comparing private industry accounting careers to public accounting careers, do you feel that there are any other advantages or disadvantages that one industry may have over the other?

Response:

This questionnaire is to be used for the purpose of comparing accounting careers with private industry businesses and public accounting firms including, but not limited to the "big five."  The information will be analyzed and summarized in a report that I have to do in a communications class.  This questionnaire is also being used for interviewing purposes, so if you don’t feel like answering all of the questions just skip to numbers 11 and 12.  Your time and information are appreciated.  Thank you. YOUR NAME:   1. What is your highest level of education?     __Associate     __Bachelor __Masters    __Other 2. What certifications do you hold?     __None         __CA    __CPA __CMA             __Other 3.      Do you have work experience in  ___public accounting,   ___private industry accounting, or ___both? 4. Do you currently work in        ___public accounting,   ___private industry accounting,         or ___both? 5.  On average, approximately how many hours do the full-time accountants in your business work per week?   ____Under 40            ____46 to 50    ____40 to 45            ____over 50 6.  Does your place of business hire accountants with associate degrees? __Yes      __No 7. If applicable, what kind of advancement opportunities does your company offer to employees with an  associate degree in accounting? 8.  In your place of business, what is the average starting salary for an accountant with an associate degree? ______Below $16 thousand     ______26 to 30 thousand ______16 to 20 thousand                 ______31 to 35 thousand ______21 to 25 thousand         ______over 35 thousand 9.  What kind of salary cap can an employee with an associate degree expect while working for your company? 10. What benefits does your company offer its employees? Retirement __Vacation     __Medical  __Dental             __Vision        __Other 11.  Why did you choose your particular industry?  If applicable, please list the advantages or benefits that aided  you in your decision. 12.  When comparing private industry accounting careers to public accounting careers, do you feel that there are any other advantages or disadvantages that one industry may have over the other?

Response:

Question:

^ ^ ^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^from leaving.   ^ ^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^ ^Yes.  Obviously.   ^ ^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^opportunities here. ^ ^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^ ^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent "free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^ ^William R. James ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^Adam Levenstein ^Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club ^ ^http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ ^ ^"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul ^can always depend upon the support of Paul." ^                - George Bernard Shaw ^

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^from leaving.   ^ ^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^ ^Yes.  Obviously.   ^ ^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^opportunities here. ^ ^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^ ^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent "free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work.

And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be treatment available. William R. James

Response:

Just a couple of questions Mr William R James (by the way does anyone know what are the origins of this pompous American practice of including your middle initial in your name?)

Perhaps sometimes pompous, but in part understandable, and not just American either. A friend of mine called Leif Nilsson (a pretty common name in Sweden) for instance used to write "Leif G. N" before changing it altogether. "William James" probably is a rather common name too, in the US. So you can’t really criticize the "R" in this case. In your other arguments – rethorical questions – you’re quite right, of course, Claude. Rolf M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Were the pilgrim fathers legal aliens? Did the native Americans invite the European settlers to invade their country and wipe them out? Were the African slaves legal immigrants? Did they want to come here? Isn’t it faintly ridiculous for a country which is composed of 95% immigrants to be getting up tight about immigration? Isn’t it a bit rich for a country that was built on the invasion, pillage and murder of the indigeneous poplutaion, on the illegal abduction and enslavement of Africans and the countless expansionary wars and invasions of other countries on the American continent to be concerned about ‘legality’!! Claude D. Paris

Response:

Just a couple of questions Mr William R James (by the way does anyone know what are the origins of this pompous American practice of including your middle initial in your name?) Were the pilgrim fathers legal aliens? Did the native Americans invite the European settlers to invade their country and wipe them out? Were the African slaves legal immigrants? Did they want to come here? Isn’t it faintly ridiculous for a country which is composed of 95% immigrants to be getting up tight about immigration? Isn’t it a bit rich for a country that was built on the invasion, pillage and murder of the indigeneous poplutaion, on the illegal abduction and enslavement of Africans and the countless expansionary wars and invasions of other countries on the American continent to be concerned about ‘legality’!! Claude D. Paris

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^^from leaving.   ^^^^ ^^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^^ ^^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^^ ^^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^^opportunities here. ^^^^ ^^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^^ ^^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^^ ^^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^^treatment available. ^^ ^^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^^Nice try, though. ^^^ ^^^William R. James ^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^^invader. ^ ^You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You ^are an idiot. ^ ^Even an idiot could easily see the point.  Guess that puts you in ^another catagory altogether. Brilliant comeback! I haven’t been so verbally defeated since kindergarten when I was told, "I know you are, but what am I!" ^ ^^ ^^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. ^ ^Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. ^Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to ^grasp. ^ ^Sure.  You actually believe they work, pay taxes, start businesses, ^vote, learn english, and otherwise participare in society??? Nahhh, they don’t work — they just come here for vacation — try doing the jobs they do, then tell me it ain’t work. Why don’t you ask the good little citizens who hire them if they’re getting their money’s worth — they keep inviting them back. All those illegal aliens skiing at Tahoe! As for paying taxes, they pay as much or as little as any American who works off the books — which is something that happens more often than someone like yourself with his head up his ass could ever know. Do you call them "parasites" as well? Most Americans don’t "start businesses" either, so what’s your point? MAny illegals do pick up English as they go along, like any other immigrant. Some more, some less. So what? What has that got to do with "parasitism?"

If you bothered to look around with your eyes opened or opened up a newspaper once in a while you would see the results of these "hard working" criminal invaders coming here just to squat and drop a new welfare recipient on American soil.  It obvious you don’t live and have never visited the south west.  Can you even identify California on a map?  I seriously doubt it. As for the work they do, it just so happens I have done it. I’ve worked farm labor in my youth, picking just about any crop you can imagine.  What have you done?  Watched a movie about it or something? ^ What a ^laugh! Keep chuckling while you eat those cheap farm products, made possible via immigrant (often "illegal") labor.

Keep digging.  It’s only yourself you are making a fool of.  It’s a pretty good bet that I haven’t eaten a thing picked by a single one of them in years.  Kimberly can verify that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -^ ^^ ^^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^^deportation every time they are caught. ^^That might make them decide ^^that US laws are to be respected. ^^ ^ ^I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively ^because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according ^to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country ^(as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our ^laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer ^the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I ^said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point. ^ ^So if a street vendor is selling stolen property, you think that’s ^working for a living too?  They are criminals who have committed a ^criminal act by invading.  It’s a really easy thing to understand if ^you just try a little. What a brilliant analogy! A street vendor selling stolen property! Just what property was stolen by crossing a line in the dirt called a border, you ignoramus? All the illegal immigrant brings over is his ability to work, which he possessed before he crossed the border. You truly are clueless.

Since you apparently never paid any taxes it must be difficult for you to imagine the problem.  Ask your mommy to explain it to you.  :) Thank you for not answering the questions I asked about the employers of such people — I said you didn’t have the brains or the balls to answer it. Thank you for proving my point — again.

It’s not even relevant.   The people that hire them are similar to the people that dump trash in the alleys.  They both attract vermin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -^ ^^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. ^ ^You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your ^post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing ^propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I ^don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a ^fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn ^how to argue before you play this game. ^ ^Look longer in th mirror and practice. OOOOHHH, brilliant riposte! Stung by your rapier wit! Why, I haven’t heard or read such a brilliant line since "i’m rubber, you’re glue.."! A hint — when you can’t think up a good insult, try, "Oh yeah, oh yeah! Is that so?"

With you it’s too easy to bother anything else.  :)  One must speak simple language to the simple minded.  Apparently I haven’t kept it simple enough.  :) ^  You might get it someday but ^your not even close yet. The only "it" I could get from discussing anything with you is a good healthy guffaw.

It’s your fantasy.  Make it up as you wish. ^  Discussions are not limited to only those ^who agree with the initial post. Please point out where I indicated that I believed that they were, and show your "logic." If you try take your head out of your ass, you might realize — in addition to the fact that that the smell of your shit is unpleasant — that it becomes easier to read that way. You might then lip-read a little, and find that I said the exacat opposite in the post you are attepting to answer.

Ahh!  Profanity!  The final course of action for the frustated and defeated.  You are really predictable! ^Unlike you, I am offering information and reason. Yes, how "informative" and "reasonable" — you have "informed" us that illegal aliens aren’t really here to work, "reasoned" that they are "parasites," etc.  You really are a trivial piece of work, as well as a despicable one.

If you paid taxes you wouldn’t have to ask. ^ All you want to do is whine about someone not ^going along with your foolishness. Demonstrate this alleged "whining." I haven’t even "complained" about your presence — I merely noted it’s utter worthlessness. BTW, if I am a "troll," hasn’t it occured to you that you’ve given me what I want? (–:

Yes, I did give you what you wanted.  And you were even silly enough to come back for more!  Has it occured to you that I actually enjoy picking on the clueless?  :) William R. James

Response:

^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^^from leaving.   ^^^^ ^^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^^ ^^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^^ ^^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^^opportunities here. ^^^^ ^^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^^ ^^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^^ ^^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^^treatment available. ^^ ^^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^^Nice try, though. ^^^ ^^^William R. James ^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^^invader. ^ ^You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You ^are an idiot. ^ ^Even an idiot could easily see the point.  Guess that puts you in ^another catagory altogether. Brilliant comeback! I haven’t been so verbally defeated since kindergarten when I was told, "I know you are, but what am I!" ^ ^^ ^^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. ^ ^Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. ^Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to ^grasp. ^ ^Sure.  You actually believe they work, pay taxes, start businesses, ^vote, learn english, and otherwise participare in society??? Nahhh, they don’t work — they just come here for vacation — try doing the jobs they do, then tell me it ain’t work. Why don’t you ask the good little citizens who hire them if they’re getting their money’s worth — they keep inviting them back. All those illegal aliens skiing at Tahoe! As for paying taxes, they pay as much or as little as any American who works off the books — which is something that happens more often than someone like yourself with his head up his ass could ever know. Do you call them "parasites" as well? Most Americans don’t "start businesses" either, so what’s your point? MAny illegals do pick up English as they go along, like any other immigrant. Some more, some less. So what? What has that got to do with "parasitism?" ^ What a ^laugh! Keep chuckling while you eat those cheap farm products, made possible via immigrant (often "illegal") labor. ^ ^^ ^^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^^deportation every time they are caught. ^^That might make them decide ^^that US laws are to be respected. ^^ ^ ^I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively ^because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according ^to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country ^(as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our ^laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer ^the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I ^said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point. ^ ^So if a street vendor is selling stolen property, you think that’s ^working for a living too?  They are criminals who have committed a ^criminal act by invading.  It’s a really easy thing to understand if ^you just try a little. What a brilliant analogy! A street vendor selling stolen property! Just what property was stolen by crossing a line in the dirt called a border, you ignoramus? All the illegal immigrant brings over is his ability to work, which he possessed before he crossed the border. You truly are clueless. Thank you for not answering the questions I asked about the employers of such people — I said you didn’t have the brains or the balls to answer it. Thank you for proving my point — again. ^ ^^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. ^ ^You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your ^post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing ^propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I ^don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a ^fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn ^how to argue before you play this game. ^ ^Look longer in th mirror and practice. OOOOHHH, brilliant riposte! Stung by your rapier wit! Why, I haven’t heard or read such a brilliant line since "i’m rubber, you’re glue.."! A hint — when you can’t think up a good insult, try, "Oh yeah, oh yeah! Is that so?" ^  You might get it someday but ^your not even close yet. The only "it" I could get from discussing anything with you is a good healthy guffaw. ^  Discussions are not limited to only those ^who agree with the initial post. Please point out where I indicated that I believed that they were, and show your "logic." If you try take your head out of your ass, you might realize — in addition to the fact that that the smell of your shit is unpleasant — that it becomes easier to read that way. You might then lip-read a little, and find that I said the exacat opposite in the post you are attepting to answer. ^Unlike you, I am offering information and reason. Yes, how "informative" and "reasonable" — you have "informed" us that illegal aliens aren’t really here to work, "reasoned" that they are "parasites," etc.  You really are a trivial piece of work, as well as a despicable one. ^ All you want to do is whine about someone not ^going along with your foolishness. Demonstrate this alleged "whining." I haven’t even "complained" about your presence — I merely noted it’s utter worthlessness. BTW, if I am a "troll," hasn’t it occured to you that you’ve given me what I want? (–: ^ ^William R. James ^

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^from leaving.   ^^^ ^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^ ^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^ ^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^opportunities here. ^^^ ^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^ ^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^ ^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^ ^^ ^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^treatment available. ^ ^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^Nice try, though. ^^ ^^William R. James ^^ ^ ^ ^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^invader. You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You are an idiot.

Even an idiot could easily see the point.  Guess that puts you in another catagory altogether. ^ ^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to grasp.

Sure.  You actually believe they work, pay taxes, start businesses, vote, learn english, and otherwise participare in society??? What a laugh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -^ ^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^deportation every time they are caught. ^That might make them decide ^that US laws are to be respected. ^ I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country (as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point.

So if a street vendor is selling stolen property, you think that’s working for a living too?  They are criminals who have committed a criminal act by invading.  It’s a really easy thing to understand if you just try a little. ^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn how to argue before you play this game.

Look longer in th mirror and practice.  You might get it someday but your not even close yet.  Discussions are not limited to only those who agree with the initial post.  Unlike you, I am offering information and reason.  All you want to do is whine about someone not going along with your foolishness. William R. James

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^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^from leaving.   ^^^ ^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^ ^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^ ^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^opportunities here. ^^^ ^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^ ^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^ ^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^ ^^ ^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^treatment available. ^ ^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^Nice try, though. ^^ ^^William R. James ^^ ^ ^ ^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^invader. You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You are an idiot. ^ ^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to grasp. ^ ^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^deportation every time they are caught. ^That might make them decide ^that US laws are to be respected. ^ I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country (as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point. ^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn how to argue before you play this game. ^ ^William R. James ^

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^from leaving.   ^^ ^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^ ^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^ ^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^opportunities here. ^^ ^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^ ^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^ ^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^ ^ ^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^treatment available. Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. Nice try, though. ^ ^William R. James ^

You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said invader. Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to deportation every time they are caught.  That might make them decide that US laws are to be respected. I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. So I have to assume you are simply trolling. William R. James

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^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^from leaving.   ^^ ^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^ ^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^ ^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^opportunities here. ^^ ^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^ ^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^ ^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^ ^ ^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^treatment available. Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. Nice try, though. ^ ^William R. James ^

Response:

Well it’s nice to see you again too. I didn’t notice the groups until you mentioned that.  You’re right. I may have started a war in several countries just by replying.  :) William R. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So there you are at last.  I had begun to wonder if something may have happened to you.  Almost kind of missed you just a bit. Looks like an interesting bunch of ng’s this message is crossed to.  Bet they all love you a bunch.  You should come back over to thebird’s and give some balance to what is said.  You and I haven’t went off on a long thread in quite some time and I am sure we both have it in us to do. There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving. People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. William R. James

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I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving.  

True, they can always to try walk to New York City. People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here.

Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                 – George Bernard Shaw

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I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving.   True, they can always to try walk to New York City.

Yes.  Obviously.   People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens."

I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. William R. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw

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So there you are at last.  I had begun to wonder if something may have happened to you.  Almost kind of missed you just a bit. Looks like an interesting bunch of ng’s this message is crossed to.  Bet they all love you a bunch.  You should come back over to thebird’s and give some balance to what is said.  You and I haven’t went off on a long thread in quite some time and I am sure we both have it in us to do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving. People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. William R. James

– Dana Phillips For the story of one family’s fight against a power mad DCS worker and other inept and corrupt people within the system. Web Page:  http://members.tripod.com/LiberalMinded/index.html News Group for Pro se and those looking to find out more about the law. "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: ‘Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it." — Voltaire "The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe and human stupidity. And I’m not completely sure about the universe." — Albert Einstein

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PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC If I went to work and found myself locked out I would go work elsewhere.  What’s the problem? William R. James

Which ivory tower do you live in?  As if it is so easy to just walk into another job – actually it may be easy for ivory tower dwellers like yourself, with your networks of fellow extra terrestrials, but for normal working class people very often losing their job means poverty, despair, breaking up of their families and worse.  There is a long and complicated word we have on our planet.  That is UNEMPLOYMENT.  That means that there are many millions of people around the world, even in the USA, who simply cannot find a job because there aren’t any to be found, because their previous bosses made them redundant and closed down the factory or office or whatever.  The reason why these "troublesome" workers form unions and go on strike is because they are fighting for their very livelihoods – if they sit back and do nothing they will end up with virtually no money and starving (if the reports I have read are true, then the level of poverty and malnutrition is disgracefully high in the USA).  You smug "academics" with your comforting but gibberish theories about the benevolence of capitalism are an insult to the millions of people who work to create the wealth of society but still have to constantly fight to get even a tiny share of that wealth.  F**k off! Ben Neal

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC If I went to work and found myself locked out I would go work elsewhere.  What’s the problem? William R. James Which ivory tower do you live in?  As if it is so easy to just walk into another job – actually it may be easy for ivory tower dwellers like yourself, with your networks of fellow extra terrestrials, but for normal working class people very often losing their job means poverty, despair, breaking up of their families and worse.  There is a long and complicated word we have on our planet.  That is UNEMPLOYMENT.  That means that there are many millions of people around the world, even in the USA, who simply cannot find a job because there aren’t any to be found, because their previous bosses made them redundant and closed down the factory or office or whatever.  The reason why these "troublesome" workers form unions and go on strike is because they are fighting for their very livelihoods – if they sit back and do nothing they will end up with virtually no money and starving (if the reports I have read are true, then the level of poverty and malnutrition is disgracefully high in the USA).  You smug "academics" with your comforting but gibberish theories about the benevolence of capitalism are an insult to the millions of people who work to create the wealth of society but still have to constantly fight to get even a tiny share of that wealth.  F**k off! Ben Neal

Well Ben, I’ve never lived in any tower, nor on another planet. However I would be willing to bet that I lost more jobs befor I hit 25 years old than you will have in your entire lifetime. Yet I’ve never been unemployed for more than a few days, even when I had no skills I had no trouble finding work.   People form unions because they think they can extort more money from a company.  If their labor had more value they could simply sell it at a higher price.  If they can’t find a buyer at the price they set then they are setting a price beyound it’s value.  That should tell you something. There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Perhaps you should consider the livelyhoods of the people that risk everything, put up with red tape and work 16 hour days and 7 day work weeks starting and building a business.  After all it’s their money. It’s their investment.  Unlike the employee, they can’t walk away. William R. James

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw

I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving.   People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. William R. James

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There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story.

Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                 – George Bernard Shaw

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Commies have one passion:  lying.

To others and to themselves. H. W. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people.

Uhm… re-education farms?  You’ve got to be kidding. Socialism’s cool and all, but we don’t need any more of that gulag bullshit.

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^                                                           ^                                                                     ^PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC ^ """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ^Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such ^experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution ^they should be given every opportunity to practice their ^talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling ^of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first ^time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest ^work for the people. ^ ^I just got this message below and folks should check it out, ^we ought to hookup with these striking workers and ^co-ordinate our efforts. ^ ^And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up ^the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why ^it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches ^wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve ^declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting ^back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s ^fate awaits all working people! ^Should you feel it necessary to protest ABC (You bet we do!-Jay) ^ABC, be aware that they are currently being picketed nationwide by the ^members of Nabet/CWA for unfairly locking out over 2,600 employees. ^Feel free to contact local 16 at the URL below for more information, ^you maybe able to coordinate protest efforts with them to make things ^workout better for everyone involved: ^ ^http://www.nabet16.org/ ^WORKERS OF ALL COUNTRIES UNITE! LIBERATE MUMIA AND OURSELVES! ^ ^FOLKS, hook up with our fellow workers at that above URL, ^all these huge rallys and demos for Mumia in other countries ^people report on, well you know what?  A lot of these so-called ^"…News Services" are leaving out some very important facts, ^that these huge rallies and demos are often taking place at ^FACTORIES, and the huge crowds are made up of WORKERS, and ^UNIONIZED ones too! Such as? Were they made up of workers at the factory in question? Were the union workers at the demo organized by their unions (or leftist caucuses within them), or are they isolated individuals? ^  The reason some of these "co-respondents" ^of these one man News Agencys neglect to tell you this is ^up to you to figure, but my guess is that someone does not ^want to see the same phenonemon occuring here in the USA, ^they want to see the same old faces, the professional ^activists at the same old places, demos at Universities, ^where workers are for the most part unfamiliar with the ^set-up of these mazes.  Universities are set up for the ^very best "maze-runners" who are after that bit of prime ^cheddar cheese at the end of the maze.  These demos are ^rarely over 100 people if even that and as mentioned, it’s ^the usual suspects over and over again.  If people are ^serious about saving the life of Mumia, you are going ^to have to stop sneering when someone mentions the word ^"worker".  Workers are the finest people on the earth. Is this a genetic or cultural quality? ^They going to save Mumia’s life and will save all life ^on this planet eventually.   ^ ^Coalitions are going to have to start having demos, ^coalition meetings, rallys, etc, in places where ^the workers can find them.  Recently I mentioned an ^RCP controlled "coalition" here (the one that said ^they refused to work with me because of political differences). ^well, their coalition is at a student center smack in the ^middle of wayne state university.  The meetings are at ^night, and you have to park blocks away, even if you are ^familiar with the parking there, like a student would be. ^Can you imagine a working woman, parking blocks away, ^going around asking strangers (in a really bad hood, too) ^where the student center bldg. is at night? Yes, I could, if she were really interested in the cause. If she was afraid of the ‘hood, she could always bring some friends. She might even live in that ‘hood. ^  Universities are infamous for rapists and once we even had to cancel ^Pam Africa’s speaking engagement there because of the threat ^of a setup and an insane rapist of men and women. A setup by whom? One bisexual rapist!? Even assuming this is true, you couldn’t provide security against one bisexual rapist? Such brave radicals you are! ^Of course there are some men or women who would be intimidated ^by going to a University which they’ve never been allowed to ^attend in their lives because of poverty, children, etc.  It ^is an easy matter to set up meeting places in places that are ^easily accessable and found. Yes — working people are such shy, retiring, shrinking violets, aren’t they? They’re truly intimidated by pencil-necked university denizens such as yourself! And we know, of course, that workers are too stupid to negotiate their way around "mazes" such as university campuses, and that brave, dedicated radicals such as yourself need to go out and lead them by their quaking hands onto those terrifying, mysterious citadels of intellectualism! ^(The University was difficult for handicapped persons too) Yes, I remember — I saw a whole caravan of "differently-abled" activists limping, lurching, and wheeling away from the rally site in disgust because there was no ramp onto the campus quad. They were shouting, "If we have to walk, you can keep your revolution!" and "Gimps of the world, unite!" I also saw a "Christian socialist" preacher attempt to heal them, but they indignantly refused to have faith in a "God" who would allow them to suffer such indignities as being unable to attend the rally. ^Why have the meetings, film showings, speakers, demos there? ^The only answer is they don’t want no-one to attend except ^the same small handfull of easily contained activists, ^anarchists, paper sellers, etc.  They want this thing under ^control, and not let the workers in their millions become ^involved. Or maybe they understand that no one else is all that interested? ^ You may have been in coalitions before where ^a certain clique of folk flip out if you even want to ^put the word "worker" in a flyer. Yes — and instead of whining, I wrote my own fucking leaflet with the name of a group that didn’t mind the word "worker" endorsing it. ^  If you are in a good ^working class organization, please write and let others ^know of your work, no matter which country you work in. ^ ^Jay Miles for Millions for Mumia March Committee/Detroit ^phone: (313) 730-5213 ^Contact info temporary for now. ^-30- ^– ^    _  __|__ __| __|  _    | ^    |  | _|    |  (    (   | |/ | ^Stop Imperialism from Murdering Mumia! ^ A word of advice to you: If you wish to help out the striking workers at ABC, you would be better off not linking their cause with that of Mumia Abu-Jamal, as there is no concrete link. You would do better to get in contact with the NABET union, and with the other unions at ABC and convince them that their interests lie in honoring the picket lines. Needless to say, honoring the picket line is in their interests, regardless of their opinion of the Mumia case, and regardless of whether or not Mumia lives or dies. Personally, I’d like to see Mumia get out alive, but I’d much rarher see a major multinational corporation like Disney/ABC defeated in a strike by its own workers. It’s a question of priorities — forgive the cold calculus involved. But if you’re really interested in helping the human species, then you would understand that the life of one intellectual is nothing compared to maintaining and expanding the power of actual working class organizations vis a vis the actual capitalists. I’m not saying you can’t do both, just that you can’t let one interfere with the other, or place the two causes on an equal footing. Forgive the harshness of my analysis, but it’s time the hide-bound, college hot house left realized that it’s time to get back to basics — trade unionism, tenant organizing,  etc. — and stop deluding themselves about why they are powerless. Until you do, why should the working class care about your pet causes? From what do you intend to draw strength — the organized workers, or the cold comfort of having "the right line" and the blood of a martyr? Your choice. Of course, if this was just a pitch for Mumia, using the coincidence of the strike and a piece of journalism you didn’t like, then stay on campus — it’s where you belong.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people. I just got this message below and folks should check it out, we ought to hookup with these striking workers and co-ordinate our efforts. And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s fate awaits all working people! Should you feel it necessary to protest ABC (You bet we do!-Jay) ABC, be aware that they are currently being picketed nationwide by the members of Nabet/CWA for unfairly locking out over 2,600 employees. Feel free to contact local 16 at the URL below for more information, you maybe able to coordinate protest efforts with them to make things workout better for everyone involved:

If I went to work and found myself locked out I would go work elsewhere.  What’s the problem? William R. James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people.

Sam Donaldson and ABC’s 20/20 had the balls to put the story straight concerning the murder of Officer Danny Faulkner by Mumia abu Jamal. Now if the commonwealth of PA would just get on with it and execute him as the jury deceed…..

Response:

PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC  """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people. I just got this message below and folks should check it out, we ought to hookup with these striking workers and co-ordinate our efforts. And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s fate awaits all working people! Should you feel it necessary to protest ABC (You bet we do!-Jay) ABC, be aware that they are currently being picketed nationwide by the members of Nabet/CWA for unfairly locking out over 2,600 employees. Feel free to contact local 16 at the URL below for more information, you maybe able to coordinate protest efforts with them to make things workout better for everyone involved: http://www.nabet16.org/ WORKERS OF ALL COUNTRIES UNITE! LIBERATE MUMIA AND OURSELVES! FOLKS, hook up with our fellow workers at that above URL, all these huge rallys and demos for Mumia in other countries people report on, well you know what?  A lot of these so-called "…News Services" are leaving out some very important facts, that these huge rallies and demos are often taking place at FACTORIES, and the huge crowds are made up of WORKERS, and UNIONIZED ones too!  The reason some of these "co-respondents" of these one man News Agencys neglect to tell you this is up to you to figure, but my guess is that someone does not want to see the same phenonemon occuring here in the USA, they want to see the same old faces, the professional activists at the same old places, demos at Universities, where workers are for the most part unfamiliar with the set-up of these mazes.  Universities are set up for the very best "maze-runners" who are after that bit of prime cheddar cheese at the end of the maze.  These demos are rarely over 100 people if even that and as mentioned, it’s the usual suspects over and over again.  If people are serious about saving the life of Mumia, you are going to have to stop sneering when someone mentions the word "worker".  Workers are the finest people on the earth. They going to save Mumia’s life and will save all life on this planet eventually.   Coalitions are going to have to start having demos, coalition meetings, rallys, etc, in places where the workers can find them.  Recently I mentioned an RCP controlled "coalition" here (the one that said they refused to work with me because of political differences). well, their coalition is at a student center smack in the middle of wayne state university.  The meetings are at night, and you have to park blocks away, even if you are familiar with the parking there, like a student would be. Can you imagine a working woman, parking blocks away, going around asking strangers (in a really bad hood, too) where the student center bldg. is at night?  Universities are infamous for rapists and once we even had to cancel Pam Africa’s speaking engagement there because of the threat of a setup and an insane rapist of men and women. Of course there are some men or women who would be intimidated by going to a University which they’ve never been allowed to attend in their lives because of poverty, children, etc.  It is an easy matter to set up meeting places in places that are easily accessable and found. (The University was difficult for handicapped persons too) Why have the meetings, film showings, speakers, demos there? The only answer is they don’t want no-one to attend except the same small handfull of easily contained activists, anarchists, paper sellers, etc.  They want this thing under control, and not let the workers in their millions become involved.  You may have been in coalitions before where a certain clique of folk flip out if you even want to put the word "worker" in a flyer.  If you are in a good working class organization, please write and let others know of your work, no matter which country you work in. Jay Miles for Millions for Mumia March Committee/Detroit phone: (313) 730-5213 Contact info temporary for now. -30- —     _  __|__ __| __|  _    |     |  | _|    |  (    (   | |/ | Stop Imperialism from Murdering Mumia!

Response:

There’s nothing like an honest accounting of the truth vis-a-vis Mumia to enrage a commie scumbag. The 20/20 on Mumia should be a cold splash of water to wake up anyone still deluded by the wacko left. Commies have one passion:  lying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC  """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people. I just got this message below and folks should check it out, we ought to hookup with these striking workers and co-ordinate our efforts. And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s fate awaits all working people!

Response: