Question:

"_calinda_" <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:c3kkha$2851ce$1@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de>… > I’d be interested in hearing about how other people who have long > term relationships/marriages handle their money, what works and what > doesn’t.  I know I don’t want to repeat past mistakes.

One reason I brought up the topic is because over time it seems to me that the majority of people in this group feel strongly that married couples *should* mingle their finances. Yesterday we had DF’s mom over and we had an interesting discussion on this very topic. His mom is 15 years younger than his dad. His dad is getting up there in age, and a bit senile. His mother was a career SAHM and has no clue about their finances. She just trusted that her husband had it all together and would take care of it. He gives her $20 per week spending money. She was saying last night that while this has worked great for them both throughout their 40+ marriage, now she is experiencing increasing anxiety over it. She says it works great as long as you trust that the person at the helm steering your financial future is of sound mind. But she frets that her husband is increasingly *not* of sound mind. She is terrified something may happen to him and she’ll not have any idea what bills are outstanding, where the money is kept, etc…. if there even is any money, and worries the money they do have might be completely wiped out by a catastrophic illness. It is likely that she’ll outlive him, and she frets how she will survive financially once he’s gone. She doesn’t know whether he’s set up anything to protect her. Her advice was that no woman, no matter how happily married and how much she trusts her husband, should get lazy and let her husband take over all the finances. Of course I don’t think anyone in this group would disagree with that – just bringing it up here since it’s on my mind today. (And yes – DF plans to intervene and have a long chat with his dad about the benefits of estate planning). jen

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jennifer wrote: > "Bill in Co." <surly..curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:iMq7c.51361$aT1.13663@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… >> This is the way it worked for us too, and that worked beautifully >> during our 27 year marriage.   I can’t imagine having separate >> finances, either, just as Tony said. > Mark me down as one more with joint finances.  Everything goes into > our mutual accounts, and I handle all the bill paying and financial > paperwork–both with our personal and our company’s finances (I’m the > bookkeeper).  DH is thrilled not to have to deal with bills and the > like, while I’m very organized and enjoy keeping track of money.  We > have equal amounts of life insurance on each other, too. > We put nearly all our expenses on our joint credit card account, > because the credit card company provides both a monthly rebate and an > excellent year-end report.  We’re both committed to no debt (I pay > the credit card in full each month) and have similar savings and > spending goals, so that works well for us.  For instance, we both put > high priority on sending our kids to what we consider to be a good > private school, and at the same time we concentrate on socking away > funds for our eventual retirement.  We have big plans for our > retirement.  :-D > One positive factor in our life is that we have adequate finances, so > there’s never a problem if he wants to buy something and does, nor is > there an issue if I want to go out and blow some money on something I > like.  When we were first together and didn’t have any money, we > lived very frugally. Now we live more extravagantly, but it’s well > within what we can afford, which IMO is what matters. > I will say that cash can be a little issue, only because we *so* > rarely handle it.  I take a little bit out of the bank now and then > just for scouting fees and other small increments for which I need > cash.  I hate to give cash to DH because then there’s no accounting > of it, and it tends to disappear…but then I’m in this position of > being pissy about cash when I would never do the same in regard to > our overall finances…!  I just can’t stand money going away without > having an understanding of where it went, which is what cash seems to > do in DH’s hands.  :-)

Your system seems to be very similar to ours. I print out Quicken expense, net worth and investment reports for my husband every so often and we go thorough them but  he leaves the day-to-day finances to me. Every so often I sit him down at the computer and run him through the internet banking procedures I have set up and our calendar of expenses. There’s also a master list of all accounts, financial institutions, insurance companies in our file cabinet. If I get run over by a bus tomorrow our affairs are ‘in order’ and he’d be able to pick up it all up with a minimum of effort. We don’t have discretionary money anymore, we just spend what we want and seem to know how much we can. I don’t bother with itemising cash expenses because they tend to be small and items we for which we wouldn’t use a credit card. My husband uses me as a his personal cash point unless I ask him to hit the ATM on the way home because I haven’t been able to get near one. I am curious how couples who don’t have joint finances handle long term savings goals such as investment and retirement funds.  If each have different amounts of money left over at the end of the month where is the incentive to make plans together on what to do with that money for the benefit of the family as a whole? Tai

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"Joy" <joydoesntlikes…@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:k5l7c.59937$xL3.35820@bignews1.bellsouth.net>… > Do the two of you actually contribute about the same amount of money toward > your actual cost of living?  

He makes 1/3-1/4 of what I make. A big chunk of his pay goes straight to child support. Then he has another percentage taken out for his retirement. Before we got engaged, I purchased a house in my own name using my own savings as the downpayment. I cover the mortgage, real estate taxes, etc. I also cover the heat & electric. He covers the cable, phone, internet access, and also contributes a little every now and then towards the condo fee which includes water, sewer, insurance, and maintenance/capital expenses. We each cover our own individual gas, tolls, car payments and auto insurance. The only real big ticket items we purchased in the last year were a mattress and a futon, and I bought those. I pay for the weekly big grocery shopping trip, which only includes food and tons of cases of diet coke for him (I won’t touch the stuff – yuck); non-food items such as paper goods, laundry detergent, etc he purchases because he gets a discount. He also pays for any last-minute items we need during the week which is always something – bagels, more milk, etc. And he keeps us stocked in good coffee, wine, beer, and Starbucks Java Chip (cuz that plays into the whole "living pleasurably" thing!).  We each buy our own drugstore things, cuz he prefers to shop and order online and I prefer going to the store. When it comes to buying things for the house, I tend to purchase most of the bigger ticket items, such as a new mattress, whereas he is always picking up supplies at Home Depot like paint, caulk, nails, gardening stuff, etc. He has put a lot of sweat equity into the place. Entertainment expenses (theater tickets, restaurant meals, video rentals, etc) are almost exclusively his domain. He hates having me offer to pay for dinner out, although I do manage to fight successfully for the check on occasions. Most of the time, however, it’s his treat and he does tend to be quite generous in this regard. I pay for all expenses relating to my children, including daycare, camp, school supplies, clothing, piano lessons, etc, etc. All in all, I think it works out pretty fairly from an ability to pay/proportion standpoint. > Everybody is different, I suppose, but I’d be a > little uncomfortable just because of my past experience.  When I was > married, I too, paid far and away the majority of the costs to live – I paid > the mortgage, utilities, etc.  My ex, on the other hand, spent all his money > on living pleasurably – which for him meant drinking in bars, buying pot to > smoke, eating out a lot, and buying himself the occasional expensive toy.

DF very rarely buys any expensive toys. He’s got a modest, used car and has no ambition to own something flashier. Other than his two robots, he’s not really a gadget guy. He is quite frugal by nature and would be even if he won the lottery; dumpster diving and coupon clipping is more like a hobby to him. His indulgences, OTOH, are entertainment-related; he loves going to restaurants and attending the theater. He doesn’t do drugs. Any drinking in bars, eating out, going out is almost always shared with me. He doesn’t like to go out without me. > You can bet that I resented that.  I wound up unable to buy things for > myself, because I was paying the bills, while he had money to blow. You’d > want to make sure you don’t wind up feeling the same way.

No, on the contrary I feel more guilty that his footing what he does foot enables me to have more money than I have ever had. I am looking into investments for the extra. I realize that if we weren’t together and I wasn’t benefiting from his additional paycheck, I wouldn’t be able to save as much as I am currently saving. Money would be a lot more tight, and I wouldn’t be able to enjoy the sort of extra things he tends to pay for. jen

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shinypenny wrote: > "_calinda_" <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > <news:c3kkha$2851ce$1@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de>… >> I’d be interested in hearing about how other people who have long >> term relationships/marriages handle their money, what works and what >> doesn’t.  I know I don’t want to repeat past mistakes. > One reason I brought up the topic is because over time it seems to me > that the majority of people in this group feel strongly that married > couples *should* mingle their finances.

IF you have a responsible partner.    (And if you don’t, well, I won’t go there.  

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"Jennifer" <JenPam2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:nqGdnXScy8xRNsPdRVn-vg@comcast.com>… > "Bill in Co." <surly..curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:iMq7c.51361$aT1.13663@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… > > This is the way it worked for us too, and that worked beautifully during >  our 27 > > year marriage.   I can’t imagine having separate finances, either, just as >  Tony > > said. > Mark me down as one more with joint finances.  Everything goes into our > mutual accounts, and I handle all the bill paying and financial > paperwork–both with our personal and our company’s finances (I’m the > bookkeeper).  DH is thrilled not to have to deal with bills and the like, > while I’m very organized and enjoy keeping track of money.  

See, I just know that if we put everything into a joint account, I’d get lazy and let DF take over the bill paying, because I hate doing it and he doesn’t mind it. I guess I don’t want to let myself get lazy like that. It’s important to me to be on top of such things. > For instance, we both put high priority on sending our kids to what we > consider to be a good private school,

Between us we have four college educations to pay for (my two kids and his two kids). But we disagree on what percentage a parent *owes* their children, and how much the child should be expected to contribute. I am aiming to be able to cover the majority, if not all, of my kids’ educations – I don’t like the thought of them starting their careers with debt hanging over their heads. If they pay for anything it will be books and misc things like entertainment expenses. DF, OTOH, feels it’s more important to put his extra savings into his retirement, as the kids can always get scholarships, loans, etc, just as he did. He feels it’s good for them to foot their own bill, as they’ll appreciate it all the more. > and at the same time we concentrate on > socking away funds for our eventual retirement.  We have big plans for our > retirement.  :-D

He and I both have our individual retirement accounts that we’ve been contributing to and continue to contribute to. He puts in a greater percentage of his pay to retirement than I do, but since I make three times as much as he does, it evens out. We are both on track to retire in good shape, whether we’re together or not. > One positive factor in our life is that we have adequate finances, so > there’s never a problem if he wants to buy something and does, nor is there > an issue if I want to go out and blow some money on something I like.

Yes, that’s the situation we’re in, too. > When > we were first together and didn’t have any money, we lived very frugally. > Now we live more extravagantly, but it’s well within what we can afford, > which IMO is what matters. > I will say that cash can be a little issue, only because we *so* rarely > handle it.  I take a little bit out of the bank now and then just for > scouting fees and other small increments for which I need cash.  I hate to > give cash to DH because then there’s no accounting of it, and it tends to > disappear…but then I’m in this position of being pissy about cash when I > would never do the same in regard to our overall finances…!  I just can’t > stand money going away without having an understanding of where it went, > which is what cash seems to do in DH’s hands.  :-)

We use our ATM cards for almost every thing – helps with tracking of where the money goes. Of course you still need a bit in the wallet at all times for incidentals and emergencies. Just this morning DF slipped a $20 in my wallet since he knew I had nothing. He says he can’t stand the thought of me driving 50 miles to work without any cash in my wallet. jen

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Doug Anderson wrote: > In our case it is pretty easy since we got married relatively young > and had very little then.

Same here- we were 21 & 22 when we married, I supported the two of us (barely but still) as he was fresh out of college. >I can imagine thinking differently if I was > in a relationship that began when I was 35 or 40, I suppose, but it > seems easier not to think about what is whose, and what is fair.

That’s what we’ll be dealing with if we do end up co-mingling finances/expenses.  I’m 44, he’s 54.  We both have older children (mine 18 & 16 – his 24 & 20).  College expenses for three of them are either in effect or looming on the horizon.  He’s also looking at retirement much sooner than I and that’s a consideration as well. Then there will be somewhat of a discrepancy of what we’ll each be bringing into the relationship as  far as finances;  I’ll have money from the sale of my home, though his earning capacity is higher.  I would hate for this to become such a problem that it drives a wedge, but I can see how these kinds of issues can become problems for some couples.  I’m probably also worrying too much, lol. Cal~

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_calinda_ wrote: > Same here- we were 21 & 22 when we married, I supported the two of > us (barely but still) as he was fresh out of college.

Umm just to clarify.. I was speaking of my former husband here… and below that I was speaking of my SO  :-)  Sorry for any confusion. Cal~

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"_calinda_" <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> writes: > Doug Anderson wrote: > > In our case it is pretty easy since we got married relatively > young > > and had very little then. > Same here- we were 21 & 22 when we married, I supported the two of > us (barely but still) as he was fresh out of college. > >I can imagine thinking differently if I was > > in a relationship that began when I was 35 or 40, I suppose, but > it > > seems easier not to think about what is whose, and what is fair. > That’s what we’ll be dealing with if we do end up co-mingling > finances/expenses.  I’m 44, he’s 54.  We both have older children > (mine 18 & 16 – his 24 & 20).  College expenses for three of them > are either in effect or looming on the horizon.  He’s also looking > at retirement much sooner than I and that’s a consideration as well. > Then there will be somewhat of a discrepancy of what we’ll each be > bringing into the relationship as  far as finances;  I’ll have money > from the sale of my home, though his earning capacity is higher.  I > would hate for this to become such a problem that it drives a wedge, > but I can see how these kinds of issues can become problems for some > couples.  I’m probably also worrying too much, lol.

I think I’d spend some time worrying about it too if I were you. If you do in fact spend the rest of your lives together it may not matter too much, but there is the possibility that you’ll divorce, and it looks like you both potentially could have things to lose in that situation.

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shinypenny0…@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: > "_calinda_" <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:c3kkha$2851ce$1@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de>… > > I’d be interested in hearing about how other people who have long > > term relationships/marriages handle their money, what works and what > > doesn’t.  I know I don’t want to repeat past mistakes. > One reason I brought up the topic is because over time it seems to me > that the majority of people in this group feel strongly that married > couples *should* mingle their finances.

I don’t know about "should," but I’m very happy not to be thinking about "mine" and "thine" in my own marriage. In our case it is pretty easy since we got married relatively young and had very little then.  I can imagine thinking differently if I was in a relationship that began when I was 35 or 40, I suppose, but it seems easier not to think about what is whose, and what is fair. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yesterday we had DF’s mom over and we had an interesting discussion on > this very topic. His mom is 15 years younger than his dad. His dad is > getting up there in age, and a bit senile. His mother was a career > SAHM and has no clue about their finances. She just trusted that her > husband had it all together and would take care of it. He gives her > $20 per week spending money. > She was saying last night that while this has worked great for them > both throughout their 40+ marriage, now she is experiencing increasing > anxiety over it. She says it works great as long as you trust that the > person at the helm steering your financial future is of sound mind. > But she frets that her husband is increasingly *not* of sound mind. > She is terrified something may happen to him and she’ll not have any > idea what bills are outstanding, where the money is kept, etc…. if > there even is any money, and worries the money they do have might be > completely wiped out by a catastrophic illness. It is likely that > she’ll outlive him, and she frets how she will survive financially > once he’s gone. She doesn’t know whether he’s set up anything to > protect her. > Her advice was that no woman, no matter how happily married and how > much she trusts her husband, should get lazy and let her husband take > over all the finances.

Well, it seems like good advice for both partners in a marriage to understand the general picture of their financial situation (though not necessarily all the fine details). My wife’s parents were in a somewhat similar situation.  My mother-in-law just found herself gradually needing to take over more and more financial details as her husband stopped doing them. Fortunately she somehow knew enough to figure out what she needed to figure out at the time!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joy wrote: > "_calinda_" <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:c3kkha$2851ce$1@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de… >> Finances were one of many problems in my former marriage.  My ex is >> a CFO, made bucket loads of money but didn’t want to deal with the >> household finances.  Said after dealing with millions of dollars >> every day, he found it depressing to handling our "piddly little >> accounts". >> I found that I resented being forced to handle the bill paying and >> accounting part of the equation > I’m curious, Cal, was it the actual bill paying activity that you > resented, or was it the fact that he had the ability to choose > whether or not to take on that job, and you didn’t?  This was a > problem in my marriage – not for bill paying (which I actually wanted > to do myself), but for other tasks.  I always seemed to be the > default person to deal with anything my ex didn’t feel like dealing > with – he could decide not to do a task if he didn’t want to, but I > didn’t get to choose, I was just stuck with it.  Does that make > sense?  I’m wondering if something like that was the actual source of > your resentment.

Good question Joy.  I’ve never really thought about why I resented it, but perhaps you’ve hit part of it.  Yes, he did get to choose which tasks he’d do, and anything else was left to me whether I wanted that task or not.  I had a great deal of resentment buried deep down during the last decade of my marriage.  It’s taken me a long time to even allow myself to see it though, say nothing to analyze it. I am not a natural ‘bookkeeper’ either, these types of tasks I find difficult to stay on top of to this day.  It did come easy to him, but he just couldn’t be bothered.  But, we would still fight over how the money was spent or should’ve been spent..(or not spent as the case may be).  And I wanted to scream at him that if he was so concerned/interested why the hell didn’t he show it more than once a year at tax time?  We were locked in a power struggle. Though my SO and I are no where near ready to even consider co-mingling our finances, I think this thread has been quite helpful in pointing out some things for me.  (Thanks for starting it Jen )  For starters I realize that my problem wasn’t a finance issue as much as learning how to make the ‘business side’ of a relationship work for both partners. Cal~

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Hiya, new guy here.  I have to say that your reasoning is exactly why my wife and I maintain separate accounts.  I make about twice what she does, and while we split the utility type bills mostly in half, I pay 2/3 of the mortgage.  Because of that, I don’t feel I need to justify or explain where I spend my cash.  If she needs something and is running short, I give her the cash.  But if I want to buy a high priced item I don’t think I need to justify it to her, or anyone else for that matter.  The bills are always paid and then some.  And she is very well taken care of.  Seems to work for us. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jennifer wrote: >"Bill in Co." <surly..curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message >news:iMq7c.51361$aT1.13663@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… >>This is the way it worked for us too, and that worked beautifully during >our 27 >>year marriage.   I can’t imagine having separate finances, either, just as >Tony >>said. >Mark me down as one more with joint finances.  Everything goes into our >mutual accounts, and I handle all the bill paying and financial >paperwork–both with our personal and our company’s finances (I’m the >bookkeeper).  DH is thrilled not to have to deal with bills and the like, >while I’m very organized and enjoy keeping track of money.  We have equal >amounts of life insurance on each other, too. >We put nearly all our expenses on our joint credit card account, because the >credit card company provides both a monthly rebate and an excellent year-end >report.  We’re both committed to no debt (I pay the credit card in full each >month) and have similar savings and spending goals, so that works well for >us.  For instance, we both put high priority on sending our kids to what we >consider to be a good private school, and at the same time we concentrate on >socking away funds for our eventual retirement.  We have big plans for our >retirement.  :-D >One positive factor in our life is that we have adequate finances, so >there’s never a problem if he wants to buy something and does, nor is there >an issue if I want to go out and blow some money on something I like.  When >we were first together and didn’t have any money, we lived very frugally. >Now we live more extravagantly, but it’s well within what we can afford, >which IMO is what matters. >I will say that cash can be a little issue, only because we *so* rarely >handle it.  I take a little bit out of the bank now and then just for >scouting fees and other small increments for which I need cash.  I hate to >give cash to DH because then there’s no accounting of it, and it tends to >disappear…but then I’m in this position of being pissy about cash when I >would never do the same in regard to our overall finances…!  I just can’t >stand money going away without having an understanding of where it went, >which is what cash seems to do in DH’s hands.  :-) >Jennifer

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whans…@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message <news:20040321120049.29635.00001689@mb-m21.aol.com>… > Early on, I discovered that DH was bad about making payments on time, and I’d > be furious when I’d find out that we’d wasted $25 bucks because he was late. > So, he was delegated the "fixed amount" bills (the mortgages, the car payments, > etc.)  that he could set up ahead of time on direct withdraw, and never have to > look at again.  I, OTOH, took over all those that had variable amounts.  

This would never be an issue with either one of us, since we both use online bill paying systems that allow you to specify the date to pay. Just set it up once a bill is rec’d and forget about it. > I think as long as you are invested in the idea that "quality of life items" > are a reasonable expenditure, you’ll be fine.  The problem will be if you find > that you are disagreeing with the types or quantity of these items; then you > may have to renegotiate.

I don’t think we disagree about what is reasonable and what is not. We’re pretty much in synch on that one. jen

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"Cari{P}" <car…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:ptidnZo-jKJo9MPdRVn-uA@comcast.com… > _calinda_ wrote: > > My SO and I do not live together and we don’t mingle our money at > > this time.   What I see as an ideal is for a couple to make the time > > to sit down and do the bill payments/accounting part as a team and > > to take that time to discuss what has worked and what hasn’t in > > regards to spending and to set goals together for where to go next > > financially.  At the same time, this seems to be an unrealistic > > situation for real life. > This is exactly how my parents have operated for the last almost 40 > years.  Every Sunday evening they "do the bills."  It’s amazing.  :) > Never worked for DH and myself

Ooooh, DH couldn’t care less about the bills; he’s just happy they’re paid, lol.  Once in a while I sit down with him and say, this is how much we have. Other than that, I’m the only one who touches the checkbook. Jennifer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jennifer wrote: > "Cari{P}" <car…@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:ptidnZo-jKJo9MPdRVn-uA@comcast.com… >>_calinda_ wrote: >>>My SO and I do not live together and we don’t mingle our money at >>>this time.   What I see as an ideal is for a couple to make the time >>>to sit down and do the bill payments/accounting part as a team and >>>to take that time to discuss what has worked and what hasn’t in >>>regards to spending and to set goals together for where to go next >>>financially.  At the same time, this seems to be an unrealistic >>>situation for real life. >>This is exactly how my parents have operated for the last almost 40 >>years.  Every Sunday evening they "do the bills."  It’s amazing.  :) >>Never worked for DH and myself > Ooooh, DH couldn’t care less about the bills; he’s just happy they’re paid, > lol.  Once in a while I sit down with him and say, this is how much we have. > Other than that, I’m the only one who touches the checkbook. > Jennifer

*laughs*  See.. that’s how it is in the relationship I have with my husband.  I handle all of our finances and any purchases are made with mutual agreement. This would probably never work for my parents.  Heh.

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"Bill in Co." <surly..curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:iMq7c.51361$aT1.13663@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… > This is the way it worked for us too, and that worked beautifully during our 27 > year marriage.   I can’t imagine having separate finances, either, just as Tony > said.

Mark me down as one more with joint finances.  Everything goes into our mutual accounts, and I handle all the bill paying and financial paperwork–both with our personal and our company’s finances (I’m the bookkeeper).  DH is thrilled not to have to deal with bills and the like, while I’m very organized and enjoy keeping track of money.  We have equal amounts of life insurance on each other, too. We put nearly all our expenses on our joint credit card account, because the credit card company provides both a monthly rebate and an excellent year-end report.  We’re both committed to no debt (I pay the credit card in full each month) and have similar savings and spending goals, so that works well for us.  For instance, we both put high priority on sending our kids to what we consider to be a good private school, and at the same time we concentrate on socking away funds for our eventual retirement.  We have big plans for our retirement.  :-D One positive factor in our life is that we have adequate finances, so there’s never a problem if he wants to buy something and does, nor is there an issue if I want to go out and blow some money on something I like.  When we were first together and didn’t have any money, we lived very frugally. Now we live more extravagantly, but it’s well within what we can afford, which IMO is what matters. I will say that cash can be a little issue, only because we *so* rarely handle it.  I take a little bit out of the bank now and then just for scouting fees and other small increments for which I need cash.  I hate to give cash to DH because then there’s no accounting of it, and it tends to disappear…but then I’m in this position of being pissy about cash when I would never do the same in regard to our overall finances…!  I just can’t stand money going away without having an understanding of where it went, which is what cash seems to do in DH’s hands.  :-) Jennifer

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_calinda_ wrote: > My SO and I do not live together and we don’t mingle our money at > this time.   What I see as an ideal is for a couple to make the time > to sit down and do the bill payments/accounting part as a team and > to take that time to discuss what has worked and what hasn’t in > regards to spending and to set goals together for where to go next > financially.  At the same time, this seems to be an unrealistic > situation for real life.

This is exactly how my parents have operated for the last almost 40 years.  Every Sunday evening they "do the bills."  It’s amazing.  :) Never worked for DH and myself -Cari

Response:

I think I can understand keeping separate *accounts* for "practical" purposes (such as, one partner is not a meticulous record keeper and keeping a single checking account is a nightmare). However, I have a gut feeling that keeping separate completely separate finances (as opposed to just separate "personal" or "spending money" accounts) due to differences in values concerning what money should be spent on, it just a coverup for dealing with those differences. Again, I say this in part because (whatever my financial records look like on paper) I am a cursedly meticulous mental accountant of who pays for what. "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0403210813.14bf6e95@posting.google.com… > And he gave two specific examples. > He would like to travel more; I agree that this is something > worthwhile that I would also like to spend money on. And yet he > pointed out that if it were left to me, we’d never go anywhere because > he senses, when push comes to shove, I feel too guilty to indulge in > travel for pleasure’s sake. I think of a different use for that money, > something more practical. So he figures if we’re both going to live > out our dream of traveling the world, it’s going to come from his > income, not mine.

And do you agree that simply keeping his income physically separate from yours is going to stop you from thinking, either before the trip or afterward, "if we hadn’t spent that money, it would have been easier to go ahead and get the roof redone" or "saved a little extra for the kids’ college funds" or whatever? See, I couldn’t "fool" myself that way. There’s A+B amount of household income, and X+Y amount of household expenses, and it doesn’t matter if the money to pay for trip Z comes from an (A+B) common pot or a B separate account, there’s still Z less money to spend on everything else. The separate finances scheme kind of shoves these financial points of difference under the rug, I think, but I would still feel the lumps and resent having t o walk around on them. > Likewise he would like to spend some money on our wedding. Nothing > overly extravagant, but for him it is important to throw a tasteful > party for his friends and family. He doesn’t think this is a waste of > money; on the contrary, he wants to create a memory. I like the idea > on principal, but when push comes to shove, I rationalize to myself > that there’s a better use for the money. So he says he’s been saving > for this, so we can do it right without overreaching what he knows is > my personal comfort zone.

And you don’t resent the fact that he’s putting money away for this expensive wedding that you have not fully agreed to spend money on, and thus having less to contribute to . . . ahem . . . paying his way? > Not to paint him as an extravagant spender who likes to rack up the > debt. He has none and is proud of it. It’s just that it is important > to him to not only live, but to live pleasurably and enjoy his money > while he’s still alive. I like that about him.

If I understand correctly, he has somewhat recently downscaled his income, by choice, due to a career change (if I’m confusing your fiance with someone else, forgive me.) I’m curious, how much your joint household arrangement now enables him to live the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed previously, while giving him the luxury of working a more rewarding, but less well compensated, job? I am not at all implying that he should go back to his old career to "pay his way," by the way. But I *personally* would not be comfortable in a position where I was, essentially, paying the bills for the cost of living, and my partner was paying the bills for "living well." If you "like that about him" (that he spends money on enjoying life) well enough, it seems like you should be able to "put your money where your mouth is" and agree to spending money on living well out of a joint account.

Response:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:48:23 -0500, _calinda_ <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> wrote:

<Snip> > I’d be interested in hearing about how other people who have long > term relationships/marriages handle their money, what works and what > doesn’t.  I know I don’t want to repeat past mistakes.

All of our money goes into a join account, and my wife handles the paying of the bills.  She and I are given a small weekly allowance to handle our personal "discretionary incidentals".   I find this works best.  If I need to repair something for the house, if it doesn’t go over $25 I don’t have to report it.  If it does, my wife and I talk it over.  On bigger purchases, we come to an agreement on how the money will be spent (if we want a new house like we just bought, or we need a new car…). This works for us.  I can’t imagine having separate finances, everything else is "together". -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:30:28 -0500, "Joy" <joydoesntlikes…@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: >Do the two of you actually contribute about the same amount of money toward >your actual cost of living?  Everybody is different, I suppose, but I’d be a >little uncomfortable just because of my past experience.  When I was >married, I too, paid far and away the majority of the costs to live – I paid >the mortgage, utilities, etc.  My ex, on the other hand, spent all his money >on living pleasurably – which for him meant drinking in bars, buying pot to >smoke, eating out a lot, and buying himself the occasional expensive toy. >You can bet that I resented that.  I wound up unable to buy things for >myself, because I was paying the bills, while he had money to blow. You’d >want to make sure you don’t wind up feeling the same way.  I’m sure your >fiancee isn’t going blow his paycheck on beer – but if you don’t agree with >how he does spend it you could wind up resentful, too.

Yes, everyone has their own style. In my case we keep separate accounts. My wife likes to think she is responsible with her money but the truth is she is very much an impulse buyer. She loves gadgets, but is unfortunately a mechanical idiot. Consequently, several times a year she comes home from the store with some new whiz-bang gadget with a big sticker price and very low usefullness. I resent having to be the responsible one, but if she were spending our mingled money I’d resent that even more (I make about 3 times as much as she does). She isn’t going to change so the best I can do is limit the damage.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller wrote: > On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:48:23 -0500, _calinda_ > <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> wrote: > <Snip> >> I’d be interested in hearing about how other people who have long >> term relationships/marriages handle their money, what works and what >> doesn’t.  I know I don’t want to repeat past mistakes. > All of our money goes into a join account, and my wife handles the paying > of the bills.  She and I are given a small weekly allowance to handle our > personal "discretionary incidentals". > I find this works best.  If I need to repair something for the house, if > it doesn’t go over $25 I don’t have to report it.  If it does, my wife and > I talk it over.  On bigger purchases, we come to an agreement on how the > money will be spent (if we want a new house like we just bought, or we > need a new car…). > This works for us.  I can’t imagine having separate finances, everything > else is "together". > -Tony

This is the way it worked for us too, and that worked beautifully during our 27 year marriage.   I can’t imagine having separate finances, either, just as Tony said.

Response:

"_calinda_" <calindasincl…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:c3kkha$2851ce$1@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de… > Finances were one of many problems in my former marriage.  My ex is > a CFO, made bucket loads of money but didn’t want to deal with the > household finances.  Said after dealing with millions of dollars > every day, he found it depressing to handling our "piddly little > accounts". > I found that I resented being forced to handle the bill paying and > accounting part of the equation

I’m curious, Cal, was it the actual bill paying activity that you resented, or was it the fact that he had the ability to choose whether or not to take on that job, and you didn’t?  This was a problem in my marriage – not for bill paying (which I actually wanted to do myself), but for other tasks.  I always seemed to be the default person to deal with anything my ex didn’t feel like dealing with – he could decide not to do a task if he didn’t want to, but I didn’t get to choose, I was just stuck with it.  Does that make sense?  I’m wondering if something like that was the actual source of your resentment.

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0403210813.14bf6e95@posting.google.com… > He said that we have two different financial styles. We are both good > with meeting expenses, saving money for retirement, living frugally > where it counts, and steering clear of debt, and yet we are different > in our disposable spending priorities. He said he has come to the > conclusion that security is much more important to me than to him, and > that if we mingled all our money he suspects I’d find it harder to > part with some of it for the fun things in life like entertainment and > travel. > He said he likes the way we’ve divided the expenses now – I cover all > the costs to live, he covers the costs to live "pleasurably." That was > how he put it.

Do the two of you actually contribute about the same amount of money toward your actual cost of living?  Everybody is different, I suppose, but I’d be a little uncomfortable just because of my past experience.  When I was married, I too, paid far and away the majority of the costs to live – I paid the mortgage, utilities, etc.  My ex, on the other hand, spent all his money on living pleasurably – which for him meant drinking in bars, buying pot to smoke, eating out a lot, and buying himself the occasional expensive toy. You can bet that I resented that.  I wound up unable to buy things for myself, because I was paying the bills, while he had money to blow. You’d want to make sure you don’t wind up feeling the same way.  I’m sure your fiancee isn’t going blow his paycheck on beer – but if you don’t agree with how he does spend it you could wind up resentful, too.

Response:

WhansaMi wrote:

<snipped everything so far,  as I wasn’t sure what to keep but find this topic interesting nonetheless… this type of discussion is why I enjoy reading here!> Finances were one of many problems in my former marriage.  My ex is a CFO, made bucket loads of money but didn’t want to deal with the household finances.  Said after dealing with millions of dollars every day, he found it depressing to handling our "piddly little accounts". I found that I resented being forced to handle the bill paying and accounting part of the equation as well as the fact that his was the final say in anything we bought or did with our money.  I became passive aggressive as a means of dealing with my resentment.  I wasn’t aware of this at that time, this is only something that I’ve realized I was doing only in hindsight.  I let bills slide and accrue late fees, etc.  Some of this was not intentional, as I have ADD, but some of it WAS and I have only lately been able to admit that even to myself. My SO and I do not live together and we don’t mingle our money at this time.   What I see as an ideal is for a couple to make the time to sit down and do the bill payments/accounting part as a team and to take that time to discuss what has worked and what hasn’t in regards to spending and to set goals together for where to go next financially.  At the same time, this seems to be an unrealistic situation for real life. I’d be interested in hearing about how other people who have long term relationships/marriages handle their money, what works and what doesn’t.  I know I don’t want to repeat past mistakes. Cal~

Response:

> He said he has come to the >conclusion that security is much more important to me than to him, and >that if we mingled all our money he suspects I’d find it harder to >part with some of it for the fun things in life like entertainment and >travel.

I’m still half asleep, so maybe I’ll have more to post later, but I have *time* now.  :-) My DH and I do something like this, although it evolved for different reasons — the primary one being that we were both too lazy to close out our individual accounts, open a new one, and reroute all of our direct deposits and such into a joint one!  So what has happened is that we have separate checking accounts, and a mutual savings account.   Early on, I discovered that DH was bad about making payments on time, and I’d be furious when I’d find out that we’d wasted $25 bucks because he was late. So, he was delegated the "fixed amount" bills (the mortgages, the car payments, etc.)  that he could set up ahead of time on direct withdraw, and never have to look at again.  I, OTOH, took over all those that had variable amounts.   Because he makes three times as much as I do, it made sense for him to take over a higher total amount but we still found that I typically was more "flush" at the end of the month, as my bill paying load is significantly lighter.  At first I was giving him a check to balance things out, but later we decided that I was better off keeping the discretionary funds in my account, in no small part because I tend to be less impulsive about spending.  Now, I’m not saying I am a tightwad — I’m not!   But, I tend to spend in $50 increments, whereas he spends in $300 increments.  So, we let the discretionary funds accrue in my account, and spend them together.  If we are buying a big-ticket luxury item, I’ll write the check.  If he runs short because he bought something, I’ll write him a check.  I basically have the job of monitoring the quality of life items. This works for us because he trusts me.  The fact is, if I left today I could take a couple thou in joint assets out of the account, and there wouldn’t be much he could do about it — his name is not on that account.  I know I won’t, and he trusts that I won’t, so there is no anxiety around it.  But, for others, this might not be a viable option. I think as long as you are invested in the idea that "quality of life items" are a reasonable expenditure, you’ll be fine.  The problem will be if you find that you are disagreeing with the types or quantity of these items; then you may have to renegotiate. Sheila

Response:

Bringing this topic up again. DF and I were talking about this again yesterday. I brought it up with him because I was thinking maybe I was only assuming, like me, he wants to keep our finances separate after marriage. Wanted to feel him out some more on it. Here is what he said and I’m curious what the group thinks. He said that we have two different financial styles. We are both good with meeting expenses, saving money for retirement, living frugally where it counts, and steering clear of debt, and yet we are different in our disposable spending priorities. He said he has come to the conclusion that security is much more important to me than to him, and that if we mingled all our money he suspects I’d find it harder to part with some of it for the fun things in life like entertainment and travel. He said he likes the way we’ve divided the expenses now – I cover all the costs to live, he covers the costs to live "pleasurably." That was how he put it. And he gave two specific examples. He would like to travel more; I agree that this is something worthwhile that I would also like to spend money on. And yet he pointed out that if it were left to me, we’d never go anywhere because he senses, when push comes to shove, I feel too guilty to indulge in travel for pleasure’s sake. I think of a different use for that money, something more practical. So he figures if we’re both going to live out our dream of traveling the world, it’s going to come from his income, not mine. Likewise he would like to spend some money on our wedding. Nothing overly extravagant, but for him it is important to throw a tasteful party for his friends and family. He doesn’t think this is a waste of money; on the contrary, he wants to create a memory. I like the idea on principal, but when push comes to shove, I rationalize to myself that there’s a better use for the money. So he says he’s been saving for this, so we can do it right without overreaching what he knows is my personal comfort zone. Not to paint him as an extravagant spender who likes to rack up the debt. He has none and is proud of it. It’s just that it is important to him to not only live, but to live pleasurably and enjoy his money while he’s still alive. I like that about him. jen

Response:

Question:

I wish I could help with these, but we have not gone over this part in class. Also, I  have read my text on this and concur with what you have stated. I will bring this up in class. Great for discussion. Janice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to add to E. E. In January 2007 the engine was overhauled at a cost of $3,500, which extended the life of the van an additional two years beyond teh expected 4-year life, but at the time the van woudl not have any value. SOLUTION: I still don’t see how I can 1) remove the accumulated depreciation and 2) recognize the loss if I don’t know the cost of the individual component, such as the engine. Therefore, Van Dr   3500        Cash Cr   3500 Please set me straight if I’m in error. Thanks for everything.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A. On January 1, 2004, a van was purchased for $24,000. To acquire the van sales tax of 6% and dealer documentation fees of $160 were paid. The van was assigned a life of 4 years and a salvage value of $6,000. SOLUTION: Van  Dr.                          24,000 Dealer Fees/Expense Dr.      160 Sales Tax Expense  Dr.      1,440                         Cash Cr.             25,600 B. During the year, expenses of $250 were incurred for oil changes and other routine maintenance. SOLUTION: Since it’s an oil change, it’s expected and is expensed immediately, not capitalized. Maintenance Expense Dr.  250                              Cash Cr.         250 C. In July 2005, new tires were put on the van at a cost of $450. SOLUTION: The book says to 1) remove the cost and associated acc. depreciation of the component if known. However we don’t know how much of the cost is the old tire compared to the van, right? The book then says to recognize the loss (which we can’t because we couldn’t do step 1), and then finally to debit the asset account for the cost of the replacement or betterment, which I’ve done below: Van Dr.  450    Cash Cr.    450 D. On February 2, 2006, the transmission was replaced at a cost of $2,000. This was an unexpected repair, but did not extend the life of the asset. SOLUTION: Again, we don’t know the old cost of the transmission so I only debited the asset account. Van   Dr.  2000    Cash Dr.        2000 E. In January 2007, the engine was overhauled at a cost of $3,500, which extended the life of the van an additional two years beyond the expected 4 year life, but at that time the van woudl not have any value. SOLUTION: I have not attempted this part yet.

Response:

A. On January 1, 2004, a van was purchased for $24,000. To acquire the van sales tax of 6% and dealer documentation fees of $160 were paid. The van was assigned a life of 4 years and a salvage value of $6,000. SOLUTION: Van  Dr.                          24,000 Dealer Fees/Expense Dr.      160 Sales Tax Expense  Dr.      1,440                         Cash Cr.             25,600

I would add the dealer fees and sales tax to the asset (not expenses) B. During the year, expenses of $250 were incurred for oil changes and other routine maintenance. SOLUTION: Since it’s an oil change, it’s expected and is expensed immediately, not capitalized. Maintenance Expense Dr.  250                              Cash Cr.         250

yes C. In July 2005, new tires were put on the van at a cost of $450. SOLUTION: The book says to 1) remove the cost and associated acc. depreciation of the component if known. However we don’t know how much of the cost is the old tire compared to the van, right? The book then says to recognize the loss (which we can’t because we couldn’t do step 1), and then finally to debit the asset account for the cost of the replacement or betterment, which I’ve done below: Van Dr.  450    Cash Cr.    450

I would debit "repairs expense" D. On February 2, 2006, the transmission was replaced at a cost of $2,000. This was an unexpected repair, but did not extend the life of the asset. SOLUTION: Again, we don’t know the old cost of the transmission so I only debited the asset account. Van   Dr.  2000    Cash Dr.        2000

I would debit repairs expense E. In January 2007, the engine was overhauled at a cost of $3,500, which extended the life of the van an additional two years beyond the expected 4 year life, but at that time the van woudl not have any value. SOLUTION: I have not attempted this part yet.

I think this one is added to the asset

Response:

I’d like to add to E. E. In January 2007 the engine was overhauled at a cost of $3,500, which extended the life of the van an additional two years beyond teh expected 4-year life, but at the time the van woudl not have any value. SOLUTION: I still don’t see how I can 1) remove the accumulated depreciation and 2) recognize the loss if I don’t know the cost of the individual component, such as the engine. Therefore, Van Dr   3500        Cash Cr   3500 Please set me straight if I’m in error. Thanks for everything. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A. On January 1, 2004, a van was purchased for $24,000. To acquire the van sales tax of 6% and dealer documentation fees of $160 were paid. The van was assigned a life of 4 years and a salvage value of $6,000. SOLUTION: Van  Dr.                          24,000 Dealer Fees/Expense Dr.      160 Sales Tax Expense  Dr.      1,440                         Cash Cr.             25,600 B. During the year, expenses of $250 were incurred for oil changes and other routine maintenance. SOLUTION: Since it’s an oil change, it’s expected and is expensed immediately, not capitalized. Maintenance Expense Dr.  250                              Cash Cr.         250 C. In July 2005, new tires were put on the van at a cost of $450. SOLUTION: The book says to 1) remove the cost and associated acc. depreciation of the component if known. However we don’t know how much of the cost is the old tire compared to the van, right? The book then says to recognize the loss (which we can’t because we couldn’t do step 1), and then finally to debit the asset account for the cost of the replacement or betterment, which I’ve done below: Van Dr.  450    Cash Cr.    450 D. On February 2, 2006, the transmission was replaced at a cost of $2,000. This was an unexpected repair, but did not extend the life of the asset. SOLUTION: Again, we don’t know the old cost of the transmission so I only debited the asset account. Van   Dr.  2000    Cash Dr.        2000 E. In January 2007, the engine was overhauled at a cost of $3,500, which extended the life of the van an additional two years beyond the expected 4 year life, but at that time the van woudl not have any value. SOLUTION: I have not attempted this part yet.

Response:

Thank you, Paul. I know that those costs should be capitalized. I just don’t think things through properly yet. As far as the other entries, I’m following GAAP. This is for Intermediate Accounting II.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A. On January 1, 2004, a van was purchased for $24,000. To acquire the van sales tax of 6% and dealer documentation fees of $160 were paid. The van was assigned a life of 4 years and a salvage value of $6,000. SOLUTION: Van  Dr.                          24,000 Dealer Fees/Expense Dr.      160 Sales Tax Expense  Dr.      1,440                         Cash Cr.             25,600 ALL of the costs to acquire an asset are capitalized and if applicable, depreciated. This is true for tax and/or GAAP. The remainder of your problems would depend on whether or not you are doing GAAP, tax based (OCBOA), financials (or something else). — Paul A. Thomas, CPA taxman at negia.net

Response:

A. On January 1, 2004, a van was purchased for $24,000. To acquire the van sales tax of 6% and dealer documentation fees of $160 were paid. The van was assigned a life of 4 years and a salvage value of $6,000. SOLUTION: Van  Dr.                          24,000 Dealer Fees/Expense Dr.      160 Sales Tax Expense  Dr.      1,440                         Cash Cr.             25,600

ALL of the costs to acquire an asset are capitalized and if applicable, depreciated. This is true for tax and/or GAAP. The remainder of your problems would depend on whether or not you are doing GAAP, tax based (OCBOA), financials (or something else). — Paul A. Thomas, CPA taxman at negia.net

Response:

A. On January 1, 2004, a van was purchased for $24,000. To acquire the van sales tax of 6% and dealer documentation fees of $160 were paid. The van was assigned a life of 4 years and a salvage value of $6,000. SOLUTION: Van  Dr.                          24,000 Dealer Fees/Expense Dr.      160 Sales Tax Expense  Dr.      1,440                         Cash Cr.             25,600 B. During the year, expenses of $250 were incurred for oil changes and other routine maintenance. SOLUTION: Since it’s an oil change, it’s expected and is expensed immediately, not capitalized. Maintenance Expense Dr.  250                              Cash Cr.         250 C. In July 2005, new tires were put on the van at a cost of $450. SOLUTION: The book says to 1) remove the cost and associated acc. depreciation of the component if known. However we don’t know how much of the cost is the old tire compared to the van, right? The book then says to recognize the loss (which we can’t because we couldn’t do step 1), and then finally to debit the asset account for the cost of the replacement or betterment, which I’ve done below: Van Dr.  450    Cash Cr.    450 D. On February 2, 2006, the transmission was replaced at a cost of $2,000. This was an unexpected repair, but did not extend the life of the asset. SOLUTION: Again, we don’t know the old cost of the transmission so I only debited the asset account. Van   Dr.  2000    Cash Dr.        2000 E. In January 2007, the engine was overhauled at a cost of $3,500, which extended the life of the van an additional two years beyond the expected 4 year life, but at that time the van woudl not have any value. SOLUTION: I have not attempted this part yet.

Response:

Question:

Response:

Just what kind of accounting class are you taking? There are many levels of accounting classes. Are you even taking a class or wanting information on how to keep books for your business? Please be more specific in your question. Janice

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

they will be going on holidays starting august 22 and won’t be back to work sun sun  and more sun here i come……. angie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Angie: Congrats on losing 5 lbs. Good for you!!! My sympathies for your b/f grandmother and your great aunt. I hope the next little while is less busy. Connie — Cheers, Connie Walsh 241.5/228/220(SWWC)/155 hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie message Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congrats on your 2 mini-goals!  GREAT going!!!  I’ve learned to never question a whoosh.  ;) — ~Kristin O 272/239/172

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Great loss, Laura, congrats. Linda 252/179/140 SWWC–182.2/179/165

Response:

Hi Angie: Congrats on losing 5 lbs. Good for you!!! My sympathies for your b/f grandmother and your great aunt. I hope the next little while is less busy. Connie — Cheers, Connie Walsh 241.5/228/220(SWWC)/155 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Good job! Melissa in NJ — and the "Boos Hounds" (Bear, Bits, and Lexus) and Maxi (aka Witch Kitty with a "B"), Kenobi (aka "Kitty Wan Kenobi"), and Salem (aka "Salem the Yak") Quilt Something for Yourself!    Adopt a Racing Greyhound! — —

Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congratulations on meeting your two mini goals.  Good luck meeting the next as well. — Brenda 209/179/150 SWWC goal 165

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Holy smokes, your life is a a busy one.  Sorry about your b/f’s grandma and your great aunt.  Glad you got out of your old place and into a new one, now perhaps you can concentrate on staying OP and getting your life back to normal.  A loss of 5 pounds during a stressful time is amazing.  While DH was in the hospital for 6 1/2 weeks I basically lost nothing, but didn’t really gain either.  Good luck losing more and welcome back to the group. — Brenda 209/179/150 SWWC goal 165

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congrats on loosing the 2 1/2 lbs, Laura. I’ve learned there’s no accounting for how our metabolisms work–just go with the flow and be grateful for losses Linda 252/179.6/136 SWWC–182.2/179.6/165

Response:

Congrats on the loss in spite of the residential hassles. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey everyone. havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.       i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.   the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.   well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.    i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.   to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.   in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.    juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.   i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Great work on making those goals overlap.  Best on meeting the next goal and goals – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Congratulations on thata loss, Laura. I’ve said a few time to people who have plateaud that they might need to shake up their menu – and you sure did that ;-D It really worked for you! Elaine K 331.4/184.6/179 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Wow Laura, a whoosh indeed! I ‘m following a similar pattern : maintain for 3/4 weeks, and then, the week when I overeat or eat junk, whammo, a whoosh! I guess we keep our bodies guessing,huh. Good job on the minigoals as well! — Nathalie from Belgium 134.1/106.3/minigoal 104.1 Goal 68 Kg 295.6/234.4/minigoal 229.5/Goal 150 pounds SWWC 238/234.4/226

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

hey everyone.  havent been around for awhile, but have some good news to report i have lost 5lbs. i lost them within the last three weeks. i went from 140 to 135 lbs which brings me to an all time low of 135 lbs. yah me.        i have been working really hard the last three weeks. and it is paying off. my size 13 pants are all too big or are getting to big for me. time to move to the next size soon i think. even my size medium p.j pants are huge on me. i have to tie the strings as tight as i can just so they will stay on.    the reason i haven’t been around the last little while is because up until the first of this month i have not had a fixed address of my own. i told the person that i was renting from that i was giving her my 30 days notice and she completley freeked on me and told me that if i didn’t have a letter waiting for her saying that i would pay her for the last months rent that my things would have to be out by the next day by noon.    well i told her that wasn’t going to happen because i had to work and had no one to move me and that i wasn’t going to miss any work because of her stupidity. and she told me that if i didn’t have them out she would put my things out herself and that she wouldn’t be responsible for any damage to them. well fortunatly for me she didn’t do any of that. but i did have to call the police on her because she then proceeded to lock me out of the house even though i had paid to be there til the end of july, that was 2 weeks ago.     i called the police and they talked her into letting me get some clothes at least so i could go to by b/fs house, which is an hours and a half away by bus from where i work. also to get my shoes because she had locked me out of the house with no shoes. in the end everything worked out for me because we live in the same residence and share a kitchen i don’t have to pay her any money or for that matter give her any  notice.    to top all that off i lost my bus pass for a day and a half so i was stranded at my b/f’s not able to go anywhere because anywhere her requires u to go by bus. found it with in a day and a half, thank god. was able to go back to work on the saturday, and was there for only a couple of hrs when i got a phone call from my b/f stating that his grand mother had passed away and that we had to go to the funeral which is 45 mins away by bus from where we live. we travelled from there to here off and on for three days. most of which was by bus.    in the mix of all that i had to move my stuff that same weekend into my new apartment where i  couldn’t be until august 1/03. then this week that just past i  found also that my great aunt mary passed away who was 102 yrs old. she was the oldest family member on my mothers side of the family.     juring all this excitment. i managed to lose 5lbs. thats how i come to be at 135lbs. just thought i would fill u in on why i haven’t been around have been cathing up on posts the last couple of days. congrads to all those who have lost and to those who haven’t keeping working at it because anything is possible if u set ur mind to it.    i am now 10 lbs away from my final goal and i am hoping to be there by august 29 which is my b day if not then , then i have set it for sept 20/03. so i am going to work as hard as i can from now until then. have a great rest of the week everyone take care and talk to you soon angie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after about 3 or 4 weeks of practically maintaining, last week (as of Friday I think) I lost half a pound and this morning (Wednesday) I’d lost another 2! Isn’t it weird when you get a loss after a ‘bad’ week – one day of out-and-out binging, and another with just eating rubbish food ‘on the go’ because I was busy.  Still, I’ll take it if that’s ok please ;o) It means I’ve gone past two mini goals – to have lost 20 pounds and to have lost a stone and a half (21).  Next goal is to get under 150, so only half a pound away, then to have a stone (14 lbs) to go, which is a pound away. Might take a few more weeks, but I’m ok with waiting now ;o) Hope you’re all doing well and working towards your own goals! Laura 171/150/135 SWWC goal of 144 23, 5′6"

Response:

Question:

certainly some races have perpetrated travesties upon other races, and if we trace our histories there is an UNALIENABLE accounting of who did what and when, and who owes who reparations, and let me preface what I am going to say by the fact that I believe in full reparations IN ALL CASES I believe Israel must return to 1967 borders IMMEDIATELY.

Why stop at the 1967 borders, why shouldn’t Israel should pull back to the 1940 borders? Sorry Joe, there’s no such thing as an accounting of who did what and when, especially in the Middle East. There is no way "reparations" can be made to any "race". By the way, for someone who claims not to be a racist, you sure did post a rather long racist diatribe! Apparently to you, race *does* matter. — "It [The Internet] should be boycotted until the custodians of the Internet clean it up." — Pam Anderson

Response:

Dispense with racism, dispense with nationalism, CONSTRUE YOUR BATTLE ON HUMANISTIC GROUNDS, and you will bridge the gap to humanistic thinkers of ANY race or nationality, such as the blacks did in the Civil War era, such as the blacks did in the 1960’s.

I think that’s good advice.  

Response:

We owe them this, and we owe the "great spirit" this also. But somehow i have doubts about your feelings on this issue.

we are in agreement my friend, you are just cynical about when resentment will pass, whereas I am confident it will pass soon after sincerity is established since true sincerity would entail labor and you cannot criticize someone when they are sincerely working Solidarity — My solution to the world’s problems? www.mysolution.ws Average Joe – chat with me live on my site

Response:

But i will grab a part of this and comment on it. "I believe Native Americans should be repaired for being slaughtered and having their lands taken from them." I also believe it would be a welcome gesture, for starters. But also, what about the millions of settlers who now live here. what do we do with them? Next – With the "gift" of More of their own lands to them, and respect given unto their people, should we not also spend much time on Rebuilding the very foundations of those good people? A people Whom until the explorers came, had a self functioning, reliable society of thousands of years, a society whos beginnings are lost in time? While the gestures are indeed good, I doubt these people would believe it until something is done. Money where the mouth is, so to speak. its been done many times in the past – Offers of help that turn into nothing but lies. Thus, any suspision of outsiders that remains is warranted. If we claim to raise our treatment of them, and give them some distinction, we must finish the job Fully, and completely, working to educate outsiders, and Restore dignity to what is also  rightfully theirs. We need to stand hand in hand with them, offering any assistance in raising Holy remeberances of their Landvaettir (land spirits) and ancestors, once again, from the annals of Ignorance and contempt, and working dilligently to preserve the old ones that still exist. In other words, working to restore honor to the essence of the beliefs that their spirit flourished on, and wich they have been coldly ridiculed for, and also being denied at every opportunity these last 300 years or so. We owe them this, and we owe the "great spirit" this also. But somehow i have doubts about your feelings on this issue. -Grimner-

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as someone of multi-cultural heritage (Italian, Irish, German, Scottish), I can honestly say I have a little less tolerance for racism as people of single heritage, I have gone through my life and watched one side of the family criticize the other on racial issues and proclaim themelves racially superior in arrogance, and the other sides of the family do the same, it gets tiring within my family let alone listening to it outside of my family certainly some races have perpetrated travesties upon other races, and if we trace our histories there is an UNALIENABLE accounting of who did what and when, and who owes who reparations, and let me preface what I am going to say by the fact that I believe in full reparations IN ALL CASES I believe Israel must return to 1967 borders IMMEDIATELY. I believe African Americans should be repaired by countries that exploited them. I believe Native Americans should be repaired for being slaughtered and having their lands taken from them. I believe the Third World should be repaired for having its natural resources exploited while they are reimbursed not even enough to eat. Perhaps all three of these classes perpetrated transgressions in previous times and they are due reparations to others, and when we learn of such we should address such. YES, WE MUST BRING ABOUT JUSTICE, YES, WE MUST BRING ABOUT RESTITUTION THERE IS NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS FOR A TRANSGRESSION, ESPECIALLY BY A GOVERNMENT ENTITY, AS LONG AS THE GOVERNMENT EXSTS IT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR REPARATIONS, INTEREST ON THOSE REPARATIONS, AND THE CONTINUANCE OF TRAVESTY INCURRED IN THE INTERIM BY NOT REPAIRING The cycle has to end. Some race must take the onus to put aside the past once it has been repaired. Sufficient reparation should leave no pride unfullfilled, leaving no justifiable reason for the continuation of racism. Some race must take the onus of the future, exemplify it, and demand it from others. And undeniably the first step towards breeding such a race is either 1)  reparation by a transgressor 2) quarter from the transgressed I can only speak from my races alone and say I am willing to extend quarter to any races that have walked upon me 1) the Italians have been walked on in the USA 2) Irish and Scots have been walked on by Brits 3) Germans were walked on in WWI resulting in WWII Under the auspices of BOTH sincerity and prosperity. Sincerity must be proven. Prosperity must be quantifiable. And I encourage other people who are currently minorities to see the PRIDE of prosperity over the PRIDE of resentment. And realistically a MINORITY is going nowhere politically without bridging the gap, and forming a  MAJORITY. Playing the race card, makes HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES issues of race and nationalism, instead of HUMANISM. It detracts from the horror of human rights abuses to introduce ad hominem contructions. Dispense with racism, dispense with nationalism, CONSTRUE YOUR BATTLE ON HUMANISTIC GROUNDS, and you will bridge the gap to humanistic thinkers of ANY race or nationality, such as the blacks did in the Civil War era, such as the blacks did in the 1960’s. NOT like the blacks are doing with rap music and urban terrorism. There is no pride greater than wisdom. Should you continue to resent those humanist who may take your side, you will NEVER be a majority, always be a minority, and continue to fester and depreciate. This said I know the hearts of men have grown cold, and there are few humanists. Not only must you bridge the gap of racism, but you must bridge the ultimate battle of fiscal caste. The proletariat is an ally in your struggle. Previous minorities in the USA succeeded by proletarian (labor) solidarity. The equation for success is PROLETARIAN REVOLUTION + THIRD WORLD REVOLUTION + HUMANIST REVOLUTION against the continuation of capitalism and the supposition that individualism can have precedence over communism in a community. And such supposition is the root of ALL issues. The Book of Revelation spells out the fate of those who suppose such, and those who detest such ALONG THE VERY BATTLE LINES I SPOKE OF KINGS OF THE EAST (wise compassionate Oriental and mid-east philosphies + Communism) QUEEN OF THE SOUTH (the third world) BABYLON THE WHORE (America) America was born of conquistador SLAUGHTER. In the free thinking our riches allowed, we found chivalry and the grace of God by CHAMPIONING democracy. Today we SPIT IN THE FACE OF THE UNITED NATIONS and international democracy. And we can expect the international community to spit back. Revelation 18 5   For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6   Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7   How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8   Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9   And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10   Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11   And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: the Arab/oil issue is going to come to a head. These people have something to bargain with and make allies with, oil is the very means for production and conventional war in today’s world, and Iraq controls 20% of the world’s oil reserves. how long will OPEC sell oil to countries that refine it into bomber plane fuel then drop bombs on their children from planes fueled from their VERY oil, Iraq is selling the USA oil to this VERY day, Iraq controls 20% of the world’s oil reserves, if they just had some dignity and discipline and shut off the oil spigot to the USA then they would make a SIGNIFICANT statement, what kind of ji-had is it if you’re selling your enemy fuel for his weapons, I say the Arab League should take a look at this, and if it means splintering OPEC, SO BE IT, THE aRABS AREN’T THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE ISSUES WITH THE usa Are we gathered at Armageddon? We are certainly gathered in the middle east, and we certainly have the means to devastate much of the earth. Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. The armies of the earth are gathering in the middle east over the oil issue. And the issue of capitalism versus communism is not irrelevant. Indeed the issue of whether individualism ever has precedence over communism, in a community, is at the root of this problem, and EVERY problem. Indeed those who think individualism can have precedence over communism, are by the very definition, DEVILS, DEMONS, and inSATiable=SATans, that need weeded out. Is there a Reverend Al Sharpton in the house? Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of thekings of the east might be prepared. The Kings of the East (oRIENTALS, communism) are pitted against the kings of the west, in terms of oil AND the individualism versus community issue. And what God would let individualism have precedence over community? What would Buddha, Confucious or Lao Tzu say about individuals who think they have precedence over community? THe way has been paved by recent oil treaties with the Arabs and the East, and such Eastern countries have made it VERY clear they are not in favor of the west interfering in Middle East sovereignty, it results in interference of the distribution of oil and means of production and conventional war. When we make enemies out of alll the Arabs, who do you think is left to buy oil and make friends? Is there a Reverend Al Sharpton in the house? Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The third world (Africa, South America, etc. SOUTH) is aligning themselves against the capitalist west, we capitalize on them and exploit their natural resources and give them not even enough to eat in return. They are heeding cries of ji-had from the Arabs and aligning themselves with the Arabs daily. Is there a Reverend Al Sharpton in the house? AND THERE HAS BEEN A RAPTURE OF INNOCENT JEWS Revelation 7 3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Revelation 14 1   And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. 2   And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. Is there a Reverend Al Sharpton in the … read more »

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Question:

remember accounting 101

Actually, debits are on the window side.

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My window is a sliding door.  Does that mean I have to use Quicken? Bill Couture

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My window is a sliding door.  Does that mean I have to use Quicken?

No – but a round desk might help )) Jim

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No credits on Windows. — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Perfesser’s nauseating puns:  ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/ts/tspun23.zip

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You have me spinning. Bill Couture

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remember accounting 101

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remember accounting 101

My office has two doors, no windows. I need a better office! ! — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

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remember accounting 101 My office has two doors, no windows. I need a better office! ! — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

=== If I worked in your office I would have to use single entry accounting.

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hey paul referring to the old schools days!

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Question:

Thanks, Mike I will be sure to check it out. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Mike- Paul A. Thomas referred me to you. I just had a simple question about QuickBooks, Is it compatible with any time card systems? Sarah S. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Mike- Paul A. Thomas referred me to you. I just had a simple question about QuickBooks, Is it compatible with any time card systems? Sarah S.

Hi Sarah: Among the many QuickBooks Add-ons on my http://www.blocktax.com/ web site are several time keeping programs. As far as I know neither QB nor any of these use time clocks (I presume that is what you mean by tune card). A program not on my site, which integrates with QB, is industry leader http://timeslips.com/ If you look through their add-ons, and go through the sites of the other time programs on my site, you should find something. Please let us know.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester   FREE 462p QB book/error codes/ 80 QB add-ons http://blocktax.com/ Spam bait (credit E. Needham):

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Question:

I see your points, here, but unfortunately, the original discussion was too many posts ago, and I can’t remember how they were discussing historical costs, when I agreed.  :o) Sorry.  Good post, though. Gina M. Dent BookSmart St. Louis, MO

| I’m not a CPA, but I couldn’t agree more,  Messing with day-to-day market |values is a waste of valuable time for the most part, in my opinion.  - |Gina M. Dent | | I’m a 30 year CPA who happens to believe that historical cost is the best |approach for the intended goals of accounting.  - Mike Lewis, CPA | |Perhaps we could discuss on the intended goals of accounting before |deciding on the valustion methods that best serve our purposes. | |In the 1st Era (12th to 17th Century) of accounting, the job of an |accountant was primarily cost determination with the owner-manager of small |firms interested in determining the profit and loss of various ventures. |Costs here refer to original or historic costs. | |In the 2nd Era (18th to 19th Century), debt capital became common and |creditors lend/grant credit based on financial soundness of the firm and |basis was often the financial statements.  Accountants tend to be |conservative and adopted historical costs given that creditors were more |concern about the overstatements of the financial reports. | |In the 3rd and Present Era, the concept of stewardship was recognised as |utmost important given the separation of ownership and management control |of today’s corporation.  However, since early 1960s, emphasis has been |placed on decision-making aspects of accounting information. | |Information on stewardship, though important, is not the sole and main |purpose of accounting information.  Decisions on what amount of assets and |forms of assets to be held and how those assets are to be financed require |more than Historical Cost Accounting (HCA). | | | 1The cost of an item is fact, not an ever-changing opinion of what |others think is should have been; | |The cost of an item is fact, this is indisputable.  However, a piece of |information is useful not because it is a fact but because it is relevant |to the decision which we need to make. | |For example, if you have bought a piece of property at $100,000 (HC) years |ago and was valued by independent surveyor to be worth $1,000,000 (CC).  If |costs is all-important, you would have gladly sell it to someone who offer |you $200m000 ie. 100% profit.  I won’t though. | | | 2 Don’t forget the idea that you view the business as a going concern. |The balance sheet is not an estimate of what the components might be sold |for on a given day.  What buyer in his right mind offers book value to buy |a company? | |Whether the firm intends to use or sell an asset is not pertinent; what is |relevant is that the price of the asset has changed.  Using current cost as |opposed to historical cost would reflect the holding gain component in teh |income statement.  Thiss holding gain is based on what actually happens in |the current period and not what might occur ie. on the intention of the |company. | |To continue from previous example, had you followed the HCA, you would have |recorded a profit of $100m000 which is 100% of cost.  You would perhaps |based on this figure and commended the manager for a job well done. |However, if CCA had been used instead, a holding gain of $900,000 and loss |on realisation of $800,000 would have resulted and gives a better picture |of performance. | |One point to note is, going concern assumption does not underlie the use of |HCA. | | | 3 Market value is only as good as yesterday’s news anyway; and finally | |Well, market value is as good as yesterday’s news.  What about historical |costs?  Could be yesterday’s, last month’s, last year’s or even news ten |years ago.  Given yesterday’s news, one would at least be able to use it as |a point of reference, make mental adjustments to derive at today’s value |and based upon it to project future performance. | |One major problem with HCA is the additivity problem which result in the |inability to arrive at a point of reference given that it adds yesterday’s, |last month’s, last year’s news and news ten years ago together. | |In view of the future being uncertain, present is nearer to the future than |the past is and present is definitely a better proxy to project future and |the past. | | | 4 The P&L is measured in yearly slices of time.  In such small |increments the average affect of market value change is of little |consequence, not to mention the extra cost of trying to keep track of it. | |The average effect may be small within yearly slice of time but the |aggregate effect over teh years is not.  Remember, the nature of HCA |necessitates the valuation of items at cost even if they were purchased 10 |years ago. | | |Mark

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I’m not a CPA, but I couldn’t agree more,  Messing with day-to-day market

values is a waste of valuable time for the most part, in my opinion.  - Gina M. Dent I’m a 30 year CPA who happens to believe that historical cost is the best

approach for the intended goals of accounting.  - Mike Lewis, CPA Perhaps we could discuss on the intended goals of accounting before deciding on the valustion methods that best serve our purposes. In the 1st Era (12th to 17th Century) of accounting, the job of an accountant was primarily cost determination with the owner-manager of small firms interested in determining the profit and loss of various ventures. Costs here refer to original or historic costs. In the 2nd Era (18th to 19th Century), debt capital became common and creditors lend/grant credit based on financial soundness of the firm and basis was often the financial statements.  Accountants tend to be conservative and adopted historical costs given that creditors were more concern about the overstatements of the financial reports. In the 3rd and Present Era, the concept of stewardship was recognised as utmost important given the separation of ownership and management control of today’s corporation.  However, since early 1960s, emphasis has been placed on decision-making aspects of accounting information. Information on stewardship, though important, is not the sole and main purpose of accounting information.  Decisions on what amount of assets and forms of assets to be held and how those assets are to be financed require more than Historical Cost Accounting (HCA). 1The cost of an item is fact, not an ever-changing opinion of what

others think is should have been; The cost of an item is fact, this is indisputable.  However, a piece of information is useful not because it is a fact but because it is relevant to the decision which we need to make. For example, if you have bought a piece of property at $100,000 (HC) years ago and was valued by independent surveyor to be worth $1,000,000 (CC).  If costs is all-important, you would have gladly sell it to someone who offer you $200m000 ie. 100% profit.  I won’t though. 2 Don’t forget the idea that you view the business as a going concern.

The balance sheet is not an estimate of what the components might be sold for on a given day.  What buyer in his right mind offers book value to buy a company? Whether the firm intends to use or sell an asset is not pertinent; what is relevant is that the price of the asset has changed.  Using current cost as opposed to historical cost would reflect the holding gain component in teh income statement.  Thiss holding gain is based on what actually happens in the current period and not what might occur ie. on the intention of the company. To continue from previous example, had you followed the HCA, you would have recorded a profit of $100m000 which is 100% of cost.  You would perhaps based on this figure and commended the manager for a job well done. However, if CCA had been used instead, a holding gain of $900,000 and loss on realisation of $800,000 would have resulted and gives a better picture of performance. One point to note is, going concern assumption does not underlie the use of HCA. 3 Market value is only as good as yesterday’s news anyway; and finally

Well, market value is as good as yesterday’s news.  What about historical costs?  Could be yesterday’s, last month’s, last year’s or even news ten years ago.  Given yesterday’s news, one would at least be able to use it as a point of reference, make mental adjustments to derive at today’s value and based upon it to project future performance. One major problem with HCA is the additivity problem which result in the inability to arrive at a point of reference given that it adds yesterday’s, last month’s, last year’s news and news ten years ago together. In view of the future being uncertain, present is nearer to the future than the past is and present is definitely a better proxy to project future and the past. 4 The P&L is measured in yearly slices of time.  In such small

increments the average affect of market value change is of little consequence, not to mention the extra cost of trying to keep track of it. The average effect may be small within yearly slice of time but the aggregate effect over teh years is not.  Remember, the nature of HCA necessitates the valuation of items at cost even if they were purchased 10 years ago. Mark

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Can someone please tell me more in detail what Historical Cost Accounting means.. and why do we use it… how does it benefit..or anything more about it. Thank  you. Ernest

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Hi, historical cost is the old tradittional way of accounting if an asset was purchased 5 years ago and had a 10 yr life (no relevance), it will always be shown in the accounts at its original cost, from that accumulated depreciation will be subtracted. The original cost is used for capital gains calcs, lets say it was sold for higher than the historical cost, a cap gain will apply lets say it is sold higher than the depreciated value, but lower than historical cost, that higher amount is taxable as it is an amount of depreciation allowed but not needed. The other methods are – market value (hard to apply), current cost, replacement cost This brings in all sorts of theories as to how and what to do in accounting The benefit of historical cost is that it is fact not opinion Peter   Can someone please tell me more in detail what Historical Cost Accounting means.. and why do we use it… how does it benefit..or anything more about it.   Thank  you.   Ernest

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Question:

: You need to get out more….there are LOTS of bmoms who WILL NOT even log on : here anymore because of the bmother-bashing. : Kate, I didn’t argue that there weren’t birthmothers who’ve done : exactly what you say. There are adoptees who’ve done the same exact : thing. What I take issue with is your attitude that somehow it is : Kim’s fault (among others)that these women won’t post here. I argue : that everyone is responsible for their choices in this regard. Shea’s right, it’s not only birthmothers… I stopped reading for several months because the newsgroup had gotten, on the whole, entirely too hateful and petty-politicking.  As usual, my horrible-going-to-get-me- in-trouble curiosity brought be back.  And it’s not half as bad now, as long as I know what to skip. [the rest deleted because, well, I have no idea what's been going on with the newsgroup interpersonal dynamics, I haven't been back, and besides, it's not my argument anyway.  And if I was the Susan you were referring to (it's so hard having such a common name) then I am, in fact, under 30.  Under 20, even.]                 — Susan                 Susan Marie Groppi | "I want to be addictive, I want to be http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~groppi | before…" –Everything But the Girl "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*).  We could all just add these to our .sigs."                                         – Marco Simons on net censorship

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Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument. You need to get out more….there are LOTS of bmoms who WILL NOT even log on here anymore because of the bmother-bashing.

Kate, I didn’t argue that there weren’t birthmothers who’ve done exactly what you say. There are adoptees who’ve done the same exact thing. What I take issue with is your attitude that somehow it is Kim’s fault (among others)that these women won’t post here. I argue that everyone is responsible for their choices in this regard.  I have said that too many of the adoptees here on this ng who are under ~30 years old are guilty of judging their bparents by today’s standards.  And I stick by my claims.

It seems to me that you are incorrect. In thinking of the ‘regulars’ here, I believe (I could be missing someone) only Kim is under 30. Rosemarie and Susan I think are also under 30, yet both of those tend to agree more with you than with Kim. I don’t see any age grouping where this issue is concerned. I hope its ok with you if I state my opinion, by the way.

What’s this all about, Kate?  Have I ever suggested that you weren’t entitled to state your opinion? In fact, haven’t I gone out of my way to say repeatedly that I will defend your right to post whenever and whatever you want. Yes, I have. I think this is a technique that you are utilizing to imply that I am trying to ’shut you up’, a popular theme with Morra, LD Best, and others who also spout this line about how all these birthmothers are frightened of posting here. You know perfectly well that I am disagreeing with your opinion in the same way that I have disagreed with Kim, Steve, Andy, and pretty much everyone on the ng except Kathleen, at one time or another. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At least you’re consistent. Oh, for heaven’s sake, I said no such thing.  

You didn’t? You argument is (if I understand you correctly) that several birthmothers, unlike other triadians, don’t post here because of all the birthmother bashing. They’re in a delicate state of mind, they’re frightened, they can’t take the abuse. To me what you’re saying is ‘it’s you birthmother-bashing folks who are responsible for these women fleeing the ng’. Isn’t that what you’re saying? You have roundly criticized my overlong (to paraphrase) postings in response to Kim’s, and accuse me of focusing on her exclusively ….in essence, of baiting her and egging her on, therefore boring you witless with drivel (do I have this right so far?).  

No. I’ve never said your posts were ‘overlong’ (geez, now that *would* be hypocritical of me), of baiting, or of boring me with drivel. What I have said, and what I do believe, is that you are obsessed with Kim, and that you are saying things over and over again, of which several of these things have been effectively refuted, or could be applied to several other posters on the ng, whom you ignore. I don’t believe you’re ‘baiting’ Kim in any way. She’s a big girl. Well, OK, she’s not a *big* girl, but you know what I mean. If she wants to post, she will, and if she doesn’t she won’t. Imagine that. I think she’s responsible for whether or not she posts. However, you have never – to my knowledge – mentioned the length of Kim’s postings at all.  

No, not in the last year anyway. Nor have I yours. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever commented on the length of anyone’s posts, except maybe Celeste. Nor have you accused her of proseltizing, as you have me.

No, because I don’t think she’s trolling for converts as I believe you are.  Nor have you called her to task on a regular basis (as you have me for saying she’s full of shit) for her foul descriptions of bmoms.

If you have indeed been reading regularly here since 1993, you would know that what you are saying is false. I have argued vociferously with Kim over this very issue. I just don’t feel a need to continue to do so. I have stated recently that I agree with Kim about 1/2 of the time. I call this double standards, yes.

Oh what bullshit, Kate. There is probably no one on this newsgroup that I disagree with more than Stephanie Soderblom. I killfiled her months ago, after we both said all we had to say. Do you see me chasing her around the ng, posting responses to all her posts? No. Does this mean I’ve stopped disagreeing with her? No. There’s NO POINT. IT’S OVER. And I never asked you to mediate in the first place.

Who’s mediating? Hmmm…..there’s a difference between Kim accusing me of doing so, and YOU accusing me on her behalf — especially when my posts are direct responses to her own.

No there’s not. If you don’t want the public to read and respond to your posts, utilize e-mail, Kate.  Would you agree that if she doesn’t want to receive "rants and raves", that she shouldn’t post any to begin with?

I would agree that people who post publically should expect public comments of what they post, just as you should. And following that thought to its logical conclusion, this means that nobody should be posting long "rants and raves" unless they clear it with someone first…..YOU, perhaps?

See above about your lame, diversionary tactics. That line was in direct response to a statement of agreement that yes, you (or whoever I was responding to in the original post) considered it to be hate mail.

No, I never said your posts were hate mail. But there’s a lot of mail here, and missed attributions happen all the time. I never think it’s that big of a deal. Interesting, the conclusions you’ve reached that are entirely without merit or justification.  You’re confusing me with someone else again. I never claimed to be distressed by or sick of Kim, or her posts.

No, I’m not confusing you with someone else. You have posted for over two weeks, reams of posts about Kim and Kim’s posts, all of which appear to me to be angry towards Kim. The mere mention of Kim appears to make you ‘distressed’.  If you’re arguing that I have reached the conclusion that you are sick of Kim and her posts distress you, WITHOUT MERIT OR JUSTIFICATION then let’s start another thread where we can repost your posts here over the past two weeks and I can point out where and how I came to the conclusion I did. What I AM sick of is certain people rushing to defend Kim against my responses to her

Then take it to e-mail. If you don’t want comment on your posts from anyone but Kim (or is what you’re saying that you only want posts from people that agree with you?) then why are you posting on the newsgroup? posts, when she hardly needs any help from anyone else in the first place.  She is quite capable of defending herself.

No kidding. Also, I will respond to whatever posts I like, just as you do.  

Good for you! Is it ‘OK’ with you if I do the same? By the way, are you the "Post Gestapo"?

No, feel free to take that title for yourself if you wish. I don’t think it’s taken. OK, now I understand.  You’ve worked out your disagreements with Kim’s opinions and viewpoints, and have come to the conclusion that there’s not much more to say on the subject….therefore you wonder what it is I’m bothering to argue about?  Is that right?

No, but you’re close. When you, Kate, begin to repeat the same thing over and over in response to Kim then yes, I do wonder what you’re bothering to argue about. And when about half of your gripes with Kim are unfounded, then, yes, I do wonder what it is you’re bothering to argue about and when, you, Kate, not only gripe to Kim over and over again, but also everyone who gripes about your gripes, then yes, I wonder why you don’t killfile her. But, again, let me repeat as you don’t seem to be getting this, I am not attempting to infringe on your right to post whatever and wherever you choose. I am merely voicing a different opinion than you about your position. In other words, you’ve all settled down into a mutually agreeable compromise, you’re all nice and comfy, and you don’t understand why everyone logging on here isn’t cooperating.   What a farce.

<sarcasmyeah, right Kate that’s exactly what I’m saying. </sarcasm How long have you been here again? You know perfectly well that ‘nice and comfy’ hardly describes alt.adoption, and in fact I rather like it that way. What I clearly stated is that disagreements, flame wars even, can be undertaken without resorting to telling another poster that they need therapy, without repeating one thing over and over, and without getting hysterical. The only ‘farce’ here is that you’re attempting to paint a picture of Kim, of me, of everyone who disagrees with you, when the facts clearly are in conflict with your picture. I am not attempting to censor you or tell you what to post anymore than your disagreements with me are. So, Kate,  it should be obvious to you that just as with Kim, and Steve, and Andy, and even Morra, after a certain point, I’ll have my say, and see that it’s useless (or else reach some sort of consensus), and leave you alone about this particular issue. In the meantime, I’m still confident that there’s points of agreement here, and maybe even some mutual learning opportunities, and I’m going to keep looking for them. Shea Shea’s place http://www.alt.net/~waltj/shea/intro.html

Response:

  I wasn’t here in 1994 to verify that her irrationality is increasing, but I can say that I cannot imagine anyone spewing as much hatred as she does now…geez…talk of bodily violence to all birth mothers…this girl is venting to avoid exploding…I am still not quite sure why she vents on birth mothers in general, rather than her adoptive family…It seems so clear to me that she had an unhappy upbringing, but why is she unable to properly target her anger…I am not deliberately talking as though she isn’t listening..it’s just that she isn’t and won’t, so there’s no point addressing her…Is there?

Ever hear of adoptee guilt?  It’s safer to attack the biomom than the parents who raised you. Another Adoptee

Response:

Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument. You argue that most birthmothers were coerced and were victims of the patriarchy and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At

least you’re consistent.

No, Shea what has been said repeatedly by several people now in several different ways is the this ‘taking responsiblity’ standard should be applied equally in cyberspace.  For some unknown reason, you find the idea of holding Kim responsible for her actions objectionable, whether it is violation of her anon server’s acceptable use policy, violation of Pitt’s acceptable use policy, violation of the former adoptees mailing list policy, etc. Considering how often you accuse others of not taking responsibilty for something you think they ought, the word ‘hypocrisy’ comes to mind. — Rosemarie Ventura

Response:

MY "mantra" is old, huh?  And thus, invalid. No. I didn’t agree with you the first time you posted the ‘Kim is full of shit’ (paraphrasing your entire line here the last few weeks) mantra. Your repeating of it doesn’t change the validity (or lack thereof).

The fact that your summation of all of my postings in the past few weeks is that "Kim is full of shit" says more than you realize.   That was NOT my "mantra"….. refuting Kim’s nasty assertions that bmoms are sluts who don’t care about their kids and trash them without a backward glance, and that adoption is child abuse WAS my "mantra".  And yes, I DO think that Kim is full of shit…..~60 – 80% of the time (it fluctuates).  You don’t.  We obviously disagree — so be it.   Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument.

You need to get out more….there are LOTS of bmoms who WILL NOT even log on here anymore because of the bmother-bashing.  Check out the Birthparents mailing list, for one, if you find this difficult to believe.  Then try the Cserve Adoption Forum, and any other spots you can think of where bmoms hang out. And I never said that bmoms couldn’t handle themselves.  Some of them, however, are undeniably fragile and cannot (and will not) deliberately expose themselves to the treatment that they receive here.  There’s nothing patronizing about it, as it is an understandable reaction.  Others have told me that they simply don’t WANT to bother dealing with the abuse. I know of course that there are bmoms who post here regularly (I happen to be one), but try counting how many do so, how long they stay around in comparison to the adoptees, and then find out how many bmoms are on the various mailing lists and Cserve/AOL adoption forums.  You’ll see that opinions about the treatment received here on alt.a are quite negative, and that the number of bmoms who post on a regular basis here is quite low compared to the number posting elsewhere.  This is not a coincidence. You argue that most birthmothers were coerced and were victims of the patriarchy and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions.

I have said repeatedly that most bmoms – pre mid-1970’s – were coerced in some way, that the decision was not made by them in the way that adoptees seem to think, and that generalizations are out of order.  I have said that too many of the adoptees here on this ng who are under ~30 years old are guilty of judging their bparents by today’s standards.  And I stick by my claims.  As for the issue of being held responsible, that depends ENTIRELY on individual stories – there can be no blanket "rule" about it in my opinion.  I hope its ok with you if I state my opinion, by the way. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At least you’re consistent.

Oh, for heaven’s sake, I said no such thing.   I guess that you have entirely different rules for Kim.  Why am I not surprised?  Maybe this ng should be renamed alt.adoptee?  I’m totally serious, by the way. What different rules? When Morra posts her crap, and Andy and Steve and Kim and sometimes me and Marley, tell her she’s full of shit, there’s always some birthmothers, (l.d best, laura lewis)and some version of Sybil here to defend her. Kim doesn’t have any different ‘rules’. There are definitely ‘camps’ here on alt.adoption, just as IRL. We’re separated by triad, sometimes, and also by certain pet peeve arguments. I have never tried to tell you that you weren’t entitled to argue or disagree.

You have roundly criticized my overlong (to paraphrase) postings in response to Kim’s, and accuse me of focusing on her exclusively ….in essence, of baiting her and egging her on, therefore boring you witless with drivel (do I have this right so far?).  However, you have never – to my knowledge – mentioned the length of Kim’s postings at all.  Nor have you accused her of proseltizing, as you have me.  Nor have you called her to task on a regular basis (as you have me for saying she’s full of shit) for her foul descriptions of bmoms.  I call this double standards, yes.  And I never asked you to mediate in the first place. If we’re going to accuse people of posting rants and raves, let’s do it across the board….equitably. Believe me, it’s been done. Where have you been? At one time or another, I think every single regular here has been accused of posting rants and raves, even our most equitable and agreeable of posters, Kathleen and Lainie. Sometimes these accusations are accurate. You have been accusing Kim of ranting and raving and I’m accusing you of ranting and raving. We’re probably both right.

Hmmm…..there’s a difference between Kim accusing me of doing so, and YOU accusing me on her behalf — especially when my posts are direct responses to her own.  Would you agree that if she doesn’t want to receive "rants and raves", that she shouldn’t post any to begin with?  And following that thought to its logical conclusion, this means that nobody should be posting long "rants and raves" unless they clear it with someone first…..YOU, perhaps? And my responses are no more hate mail than anyone else’s are. Who said anything about hate mail?

That line was in direct response to a statement of agreement that yes, you (or whoever I was responding to in the original post) considered it to be hate mail. Well, I’ve been around here since ‘93. I don’t know when Night appeared, but I think it was after I did. I think she’s much more rational now than she was then. Well, I do not. How long have you been here?

Seems like forever…..I think it was the fall of 1993. If you, and others who are so distressed by her, were to killfile her, then there would not be threads and threads about Kim and her posts. And since you are sick of Kim and don’t think there’s anything else worthwhile on the ng, why are you here?

Interesting, the conclusions you’ve reached that are entirely without merit or justification.  You’re confusing me with someone else again. I never claimed to be distressed by or sick of Kim, or her posts.  I object to her accusations against bmoms, certainly.  But that’s not quite the same thing, because ostensibly this ng is here for precisely this reason:  discussion.   What I AM sick of is certain people rushing to defend Kim against my responses to her posts, when she hardly needs any help from anyone else in the first place.  She is quite capable of defending herself. There are quite a few interesting topics that have nothing to do with Kim that I have just written in response to today. Maybe you should check your newsreader,or maybe you’re so obsessed right now with Kim that you can’t see beyond her posts.

As a matter of fact, I have recently changed my newsreader and know now that I was missing more than half of the postings, judging by the number of postings I now get on a daily basis.   Obsessed with Kim?  No more than you or anyone else appears to be.  Also, I will respond to whatever posts I like, just as you do.   Makes no difference. I didn’t say you were irrational and single-focused on being a birthmother. I said you were irrational and single-foucsed when it came to Kim.

How exactly did you reach that misguided conclusion anyway?  Do you realize that few, if any, of my posts concerning Kim were ever STARTED by me, that they were responses to her own or someone else’s posts?  I guess that probably escaped your attention.  By the way, are you the "Post Gestapo"?  And I should simply shut up and learn the TRUTH, right? *yawn*. If it makes you feel better to consider yourself an oppressed victim, Kate, who am I to tell you otherwise.

I would hardly call myself an oppressed victim, thanks. Never said I was.  Would you be more comfortable if I donned this particular mantle before logging on?   I don’t think Kim speaks ‘the TRUTH’ any more than any single person on this ng. What I have repeatedly stated is that I agree with Kim about half the time. I toss out what I don’t agree with, as we’ve already argued and there’s not much more to say.

OK, now I understand.  You’ve worked out your disagreements with Kim’s opinions and viewpoints, and have come to the conclusion that there’s not much more to say on the subject….therefore you wonder what it is I’m bothering to argue about?  Is that right? It’s the same for me with Steve and Andy. All of us have had our flame wars over what we disagree about. For the most part, they were constructive and I can’t recall one instance when any of us told each other they needed therapy or should go away, or should shut up, or were responsible for every other ng member’s actions. We all still have some of those difference, in some cases, all of those differences. But we don’t feel a need to follow each other around the ng harping on the same point over and over and over. That’s not in the least bit constructive.

In other words, you’ve all settled down into a mutually agreeable compromise, you’re all nice and comfy, and you don’t understand why everyone logging on here isn’t cooperating.   What a farce. Kate

Response:

:    I wasn’t here in 1994 to verify that her irrationality is increasing, but I : can say that I cannot imagine anyone spewing as much hatred as she does : now…geez…talk of bodily violence to all birth mothers…this girl is : venting to avoid exploding…I am still not quite sure why she vents on birth : mothers in general, rather than her adoptive family…It seems so clear to me : that she had an unhappy upbringing, but why is she unable to properly target : her anger…I am not deliberately talking as though she isn’t listening..it’s : just that she isn’t and won’t, so there’s no point addressing her…Is there?    Anger, I suppose, is just like money, in that anyone who evidences a surplus will never lack for advice on how and where it should be properly directed. Andy Katz

Response:

MY "mantra" is old, huh?  And thus, invalid.

No. I didn’t agree with you the first time you posted the ‘Kim is full of shit’ (paraphrasing your entire line here the last few weeks) mantra. Your repeating of it doesn’t change the validity (or lack thereof). It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that I’m a bmom, and Kim HATES bmoms, would it?

??? This goes a long way toward explaining why so many bmoms refuse to post here anymore.  They’ve moved over to the mailing lists, where it’s ok to speak their piece, tell their stories without worrying that they’ll be called sluts, and defend themselves when necessary:  without being told, basically, to shut up and take it.

Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument. You argue that most birthmothers were coerced and were victims of the patriarchy and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At least you’re consistent. I guess that you have entirely different rules for Kim.  Why am I not surprised?  Maybe this ng should be renamed alt.adoptee?  I’m totally serious, by the way.

What different rules? When Morra posts her crap, and Andy and Steve and Kim and sometimes me and Marley, tell her she’s full of shit, there’s always some birthmothers, (l.d best, laura lewis)and some version of Sybil here to defend her. Kim doesn’t have any different ‘rules’. There are definitely ‘camps’ here on alt.adoption, just as IRL. We’re separated by triad, sometimes, and also by certain pet peeve arguments. I have never tried to tell you that you weren’t entitled to argue or disagree. If we’re going to accuse people of posting rants and raves, let’s do it across the board….equitably.

Believe me, it’s been done. Where have you been? At one time or another, I think every single regular here has been accused of posting rants and raves, even our most equitable and agreeable of posters, Kathleen and Lainie. Sometimes these accusations are accurate. You have been accusing Kim of ranting and raving and I’m accusing you of ranting and raving. We’re probably both right. And my responses are no more hate mail than anyone else’s are.

Who said anything about hate mail? Well, I’ve been around here since ‘93. I don’t know when Night appeared, but I think it was after I did. I think she’s much more rational now than she was then. Well, I do not.

How long have you been here? Whether you and Jean like what I post is irrelevant.  As for killfiling Kim – now what good would that do, when the majority of the posts here are either from Kim, or are responses to / conversations about what she has said?

If you, and others who are so distressed by her, were to killfile her, then there would not be threads and threads about Kim and her posts. And since you are sick of Kim and don’t think there’s anything else worthwhile on the ng, why are you here? There are quite a few interesting topics that have nothing to do with Kim that I have just written in response to today. Maybe you should check your newsreader, or maybe you’re so obsessed right now with Kim that you can’t see beyond her posts. As for being irrational and single-focused:  I cannot be, for the simple reason that I am surrounded by all 3 sides of the triad every day in my own family.

Makes no difference. I didn’t say you were irrational and single-focused on being a birthmother. I said you were irrational and single-foucsed when it came to Kim.  And I should simply shut up and learn the TRUTH, right?

*yawn*. If it makes you feel better to consider yourself an oppressed victim, Kate, who am I to tell you otherwise. I don’t think Kim speaks ‘the TRUTH’ any more than any single person on this ng. What I have repeatedly stated is that I agree with Kim about half the time. I toss out what I don’t agree with, as we’ve already argued and there’s not much more to say. It’s the same for me with Steve and Andy. All of us have had our flame wars over what we disagree about. For the most part, they were constructive and I can’t recall one instance when any of us told each other they needed therapy or should go away, or should shut up, or were responsible for every other ng member’s actions. We all still have some of those difference, in some cases, all of those differences. But we don’t feel a need to follow each other around the ng harping on the same point over and over and over. That’s not in the least bit constructive. Shea Shea’s place http://www.alt.net/~waltj/shea/intro.html

Response:

Well, I can’t speak for Jean, but why I think you should pipe down is that the only contributive thing you’ve posted in goddess knows how long is rants and raves about Kim.

Then I think you need to pay closer attention, because you’re wrong about this. This has lead to rants and raves to anyone who defends Kim including calling them ‘full of shit’ and in general going on and on shrilly for paragraphs repeating the same mantra over and over. It’s old. But hey, I’ll support your right to post it as often as you like.

MY "mantra" is old, huh?  And thus, invalid.  It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that I’m a bmom, and Kim HATES bmoms, would it?  This goes a long way toward explaining why so many bmoms refuse to post here anymore.  They’ve moved over to the mailing lists, where it’s ok to speak their piece, tell their stories without worrying that they’ll be called sluts, and defend themselves when necessary:  without being told, basically, to shut up and take it. I guess that you have entirely different rules for Kim.  Why am I not surprised?  Maybe this ng should be renamed alt.adoptee?  I’m totally serious, by the way. If we’re going to accuse people of posting rants and raves, let’s do it across the board….equitably. I don’t think it’s ‘OK’, just like I don’t think it’s ‘OK’ that you presume to know everything about Kim.

Again, my references to Kim’s life are based solely on what is common knowledge on this ng, for anyone who has been here long enough.  I have not "presumed" to know this info, nor have I fabricated it.  And I never claimed or intimated that I know everything about Kim.  What I DO know is more than enough for me. She, on the other hand, is guilty of presumptions about and accusations against bmoms that go far beyond ranting and raving.  But again, I guess that’s okay because it’s Kim. And my responses are no more hate mail than anyone else’s are. Well, I’ve been around here since ‘93. I don’t know when Night appeared, but I think it was after I did. I think she’s much more rational now than she was then.

Well, I do not. As I said, I think you have every right to post whatever you want. Just as Jean or I have every right to tell you we don’t like what you post. My problem is I think you’ve become as single-focused and irrational as you accuse Kim of being. Maybe you shoudl just killfile her or don’t read any of her posts her something.

Whether you and Jean like what I post is irrelevant.  As for killfiling Kim – now what good would that do, when the majority of the posts here are either from Kim, or are responses to / conversations about what she has said?  I have no interest in reading posts about people looking to buy babies, which seems to be what so many of the other postings are these days. As for being irrational and single-focused:  I cannot be, for the simple reason that I am surrounded by all 3 sides of the triad every day in my own family.  I have no vested interest in convincing anyone to despise another triad group.  I have made no attempts to generically badmouth adoptees, bmoms OR aparents.  She has and does repeatedly bash both bmoms and adoptees who disagree with her…..using the same old "mantra", by the way.  But I guess that’s okay.  And I should simply shut up and learn the TRUTH, right?

Response:

  What could be the reason?  Bad genes? I see.  So you consider my responses to her to be "hate mail", is that right?  I do not hate her, nor do I hate her postings.  I am capable of separating the postings from the person.  In fact, I find them interesting.  But she’s becoming increasing irrational, and if you’ve been monitoring since 1994, you will know that this is so.  I don’t say irrational because of her hatred of bmothers — I say it because she used to be able to at least consider what others had to say about the subject.  Now, she just posts her accusations and distorted fantasies with abandon….and you, along with a couple of others here, feel that I have no right to tell her what I think.  

   I wasn’t here in 1994 to verify that her irrationality is increasing, but I can say that I cannot imagine anyone spewing as much hatred as she does now…geez…talk of bodily violence to all birth mothers…this girl is venting to avoid exploding…I am still not quite sure why she vents on birth mothers in general, rather than her adoptive family…It seems so clear to me that she had an unhappy upbringing, but why is she unable to properly target her anger…I am not deliberately talking as though she isn’t listening..it’s just that she isn’t and won’t, so there’s no point addressing her…Is there? "A rumor without a leg to stand on will get around some other way"                                            (John Tudor)

Response:

Hello… Well, I certainly am happy that Kate Workman is around.  After all, without her to tell me how I feel and what I think, I would be utterly lost.

As if you haven’t been posting your story and feelings (as well as Tina’s) in great detail for over a year, huh?  Did you think nobody was paying attention?  I was. I am also happy she is in posession of telepathic abilities which enable her to read both my mind and my birthmother’s so that she can tell me and everyone else is REALLY going on in our heads.  I wonder where she got that monitoring equipment that allows her to see how my birthmother and I REALLY interact, rather than merely how I THINK we interact.  The U.S. Government would probably pay a lot of money for equipment with such incredible potential.

Psychic abilities were not necessary.  Again, YOU are the one who felt it was appropriate and/or important to post this info in the first place.  If you didn’t welcome any input, what EXACTLY was the point of posting it?  Just to vent?  That’s what they make diaries for….they even come with little keys!  THIS is a public forum, and you shouldn’t post anything that you don’t want others to know about.  Any info I have on how you and Tina interact was supplied by YOU, and not – as you would like people to believe –  by my overactive imagination.  I have better things to do than make up stories about people. What would we silly little misled adoptees do without birthmothers like Kate to tell us what’s REALLY going on inside our heads and in our lives, as well as what our birthmothers REALLY think and do and say as opposed to what we THINK they think, and what we THINK they did and what we THINK they really said?

What a load of crap….you’re really getting desperate here.  You say this as though you’ve never gone into great detail about what’s REALLY going on inside your head and life, as well as Tina’s.  In future, if you don’t expect people to comment on your lengthly, detailed postings — then don’t post them.  You know, as do many people on this ng, that your feelings and Tina’s have been well-documented … from your perspective mostly, but also from your OWN accounting of Tina’s comment, actions and perspective (which of course was at odds with your own). PS Anyone else notice that Chicken Girl STILL refuses to post HER story?

Chicken Girl, huh?  Tee Hee!!!  Guess again.  You see, I DO understand that this is a public forum.

Response:

I’m not sure it’s worth replying to this drivel, as Jean has apparently logged off, but JUST IN CASE she’s as full of shit as I suspect and is in fact still "lurking": You might remember that months *before* her reunion, Kim/Nightshade/Belladonna was spewing angry venom with a vengeance.  Do you ever wonder why? Do you wonder why, when she first appeared here, she came accross like a cruise missle?

Obviously she is a very angry individual.  I’ve come across people like her before, in my own family.  She will likely get a grip eventually….one can hope. Before she decided to search.  Before she decided that the adoptees’ mailing list was full of shit.  

Oh, I see.  KIM HAS SPOKEN.  Dare I point out that there are many who would disagree? Before she started her public campaign against birthmothers.  

Again, is there a point here somewhere? Before she publicly admitted that the reason she used the anonymous server penet.fi was because she was ashamed to be adopted.

That’s a claim that I have NEVER believed.  She posted anonymously because in those days she wasn’t sufficiently brave enough to risk having alt.adoption know who she really is.  She wouldn’t have stopped posting anonymously at all had someone not "outed" her — not that I think it was an ethical thing to do. The fact that she continues to post using her real name is progress of sorts. And let’s get something straight here, once and for all.  You don’t have to be a brain surgeon to understand that Kim’s hatred of birthmothers in general is based almost exclusively on her OWN feelings about the subject.  She has judged them and found them wanting, and apparently nothing anyone says will make any difference. Unlike most rational people, who can see the triad from different perspectives and at least attempt to understand where everyone is coming from, she has no interest in doing so at this point in time.  I don’t post my responses to her thinking that it will make any difference to HER:  I simply prefer to see a more balanced view here. As I’ve said before, there are a helluva lot of people who lurk here but never, or rarely, post at all.  Should they see her assertions go completely unchallenged?  I don’ t think so. Look, neither you nor I is in any position to evaluate her upbringing with any sort of accuracy or objectivity.  At least be honest about this and quit the pseudo-analytical jive.

Let’s REALLY be honest here and admit that we are ALL evaluating the information that she posts.  She knows this, you know this, I know this, and so does everyone else.  Pseudo-analytical jive?  Bullshit. You can take all her statements at face value.  I wouldn’t.

And I don’t.   Try to see through an adoptee’s eyes for a moment.  Ask yourself, "Is she real?"

She seems real enough to me. What do *you* know.  As though you needed to know *that*!  You and I know jack shit about her or anyone else here.  So pipe down.

Why in God’s name should I "pipe down"?  What is the POINT of a ng where one person posts such venemous crap and nobody is supposed to argue with her?  What is your problem? And why exactly do you feel that it’s okay for Kim to presume to know everything about bmothers, and to comment on their lives, when she knows even less about us than we do about her?  We all know a lot more than "jack shit" about her, by the way.  You have some very strange ideas about who’s overstepping their bounds here. I remember her generating handfuls of hate mail and hate response backwards to, I dunno, mid ‘94?  Before she had considered searching. What could be the reason?  Bad genes?

I see.  So you consider my responses to her to be "hate mail", is that right?  I do not hate her, nor do I hate her postings.  I am capable of separating the postings from the person.  In fact, I find them interesting.  But she’s becoming increasing irrational, and if you’ve been monitoring since 1994, you will know that this is so.  I don’t say irrational because of her hatred of bmothers — I say it because she used to be able to at least consider what others had to say about the subject.  Now, she just posts her accusations and distorted fantasies with abandon….and you, along with a couple of others here, feel that I have no right to tell her what I think.  Very interesting. Is this the alt.adoption.Kim’s-always-right-so-don’t-dare argue.ng, or what? As for the bad genes bit, I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Do you?

Response:

Kate, You might remember that months *before* her reunion, Kim/Nightshade/Belladonna was spewing angry venom with a vengeance.  Do you ever wonder why? Do you wonder why, when she first appeared here, she came accross like a cruise missle? Before she decided to search.  Before she decided that the adoptees’ mailing list was full of shit.  Before she started her public campaign against birthmothers.  Before she publicly admitted that the reason she used the anonymous server penet.fi was because she was ashamed to be adopted. * Look, neither you nor I is in any position to evaluate her upbringing with any sort of accuracy or objectivity.  At least be honest about this and quit the pseudo-analytical jive. You can take all her statements at face value. I wouldn’t. Try to see through an adoptee’s eyes for a moment.  Ask yourself, "Is she real?" What do *you* know.  As though you needed to know *that*!  You and I know jack shit about her or anyone else here.  So pipe down. I remember her generating handfuls of hate mail and hate response backwards to, I dunno, mid ‘94?  Before she had considered searching. What could be the reason?  Bad genes? -J

Response:

Hello…   Well, I certainly am happy that Kate Workman is around.  After all, without her to tell me how I feel and what I think, I would be utterly lost.   I am also happy she is in posession of telepathic abilities which enable her to read both my mind and my birthmother’s so that she can tell me and everyone else is REALLY going on in our heads.  I wonder where she got that monitoring equipment that allows her to see how my birthmother and I REALLY interact, rather than merely how I THINK we interact.  The U.S. Government would probably pay a lot of money for equipment with such incredible potential.   What would we silly little misled adoptees do without birthmothers like Kate to tell us what’s REALLY going on inside our heads and in our lives, as well as what our birthmothers REALLY think and do and say as opposed to what we THINK they think, and what we THINK they did and what we THINK they really said?   It’s a wonder we adoptees can be trusted to get our shoes on our feet correctly without help…                                                 – Kim at Pitt. PS Anyone else notice that Chicken Girl STILL refuses to post HER story?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -        [snip] Even if you have an A/P you still must monitor the plane.           very true [snip] Yes single pilot IFR is feasible, it just takes good training and frequent practice.  I also agree that a headset and boom mike are essential,  You will have enough things in your hands without fumbling for a mike. — David Cristol

        been followin this single pilot ifr, autopilot/no-autopilot         thread with some interest.  the amusing thing is that one         man’s ‘nice to have’ is another man’s necessity.  i’ve flown         sp ifr without dme, without a/p, without headset, etc. but         now that i’ve been exposed to some of those things, i find         i _really_ want most of them.  so, depends on the mission         and the equipment.  during the year that i commuted between         austin and fort worth (on a weekly basis), i logged over         35 hours imc and 30 approaches (a dozen or so down to mins)         in a c-150.  it had dme and headset, but no a/p.  when the         210 got out of the shop i used it for the commute, and was         very grateful to have the a/p.  the last time i flew the 210         in imc (2 or 3 weeks ago), i realized that i hadn’t practiced         much hand-flying in awhile, so i kicked the a/p off for the         rest of the flight (about 45 mins).         so, i guess my point is, you use what you got.  people tend         to make priorities on what to buy.  i rate dme (or maybe         gps, i dunno, don’t have one yet) above a/p, but a/p is         still pretty high on the list.         also, how many of you guys would consider driving a ~600 mile         trip w/o cruise control?  sort of the same principle, in a way.         john prickett —  |  _______                                                   |  |  ____  | Advanced      John Prickett — MTS Systems Arch. |

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Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, <snip I am looking for comments (hopefully some from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how difficult it is.

  IMHO, the autopilot is not required. But I fly a lot of single pilot IFR in single engine complex airplanes and the autopilot will reduce the workload a lot. I would not go on an IFR flight without one if ALL the following apply:   0) Single pilot   1) Solid IMC is expected   2) Turbulence is expected (I mean real turbulence not just a little)   3) Expected flight time (accounting for wind) is over 2 hours. If things changed after takeoff, it can be handled. But I try to avoid all together without the autopilot.   The statement about turning off the autopilot in moderate to severe turbulence has some merit, in light to moderate the heading hold is nice if your POH allows it. I never had a good enough autopilot to trust in approach mode so I always turn it off for that. I admit that I too use it more in smooth enroute than anywhere else!     Jim Hanrahan, PE, CP-IA          Naval Surface Warfare Center

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : :   [snip] : : Even if you have an A/P you still must monitor the plane.   : :   very true [snip] : Good advice.  But it is interesting to find out what really makes a difference.  I got to hear a presentation last month by some flight control/human factors researchers at NASA Ames.  Seems the biggest single task in flying is keeping the wings level due to nearly neutral roll

I strongly agree.  In my personal IFR flying, that seems to be the greatest time consumer, and makes dealing with other tasks (such as looking at the map, copying numbers) infinitely more difficult.  I have yet to experience an A/P, but imagine it would greatly ease the simple (but crucial) tasks unrelated to the scan.   Out of New York last month, solid IMC, I was told "advice ready to copy new clearance"… It was bumpy, and copying the clearance, keeping the wings level, and talking took a lot of energy and concentration.   Especially, not being familiar with all the local VORs.  I resolved to fly first (i.e. keep up the scan) and I manged, but another pilot or an A/P probably would have made the whole ordeal merely a nuisance. Stuart Tomares, M.D. PP-ASEL-IA (KMTN, Baltimore, Maryland)

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Out of New York last month, solid IMC, I was told "advice ready to copy new clearance"… It was bumpy, and copying the clearance, keeping the wings level, and talking took a lot of energy and concentration.   Especially, not being familiar with all the local VORs.  I resolved to fly first (i.e. keep up the scan) and I manged, but another pilot or an A/P probably would have made the whole ordeal merely a nuisance. Stuart Tomares, M.D. PP-ASEL-IA (KMTN, Baltimore, Maryland)

So perhaps you became a bit better as an IMC/IFR pilot in the NY area (my home town!).  Perhaps you weren’t as current as you’d like.  Please don’t talk about unfamililarity with VOR’s, as you already studied them on your JEPPS before comming here.  Not a tough place to visit, just a professional one! NY has the best controllers and pilots.  Welcome! Come back again. Stan  Arrow 2719C Islip NY (ISP)

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asp

<SNIP so, i guess my point is, you use what you got.  people tend    to make priorities on what to buy.  i rate dme (or maybe    gps, i dunno, don’t have one yet) above a/p, but a/p is    still pretty high on the list.

Go for the GPS.    also, how many of you guys would consider driving a ~600 mile    trip w/o cruise control?  sort of the same principle, in a way.

Guess I just like self punishment.  I don’t use cruise control either. Of course I don’t drive 600 mile trips anymore since I started flying. <G Take care, Stan  Arrow 2719C Islip NY (ISP)

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I fly our Archer, which has similar equipment (but also an autopilot and standby vac),  single pilot IFR frequently.  I believe that you must temper your expectations with commonsense while at the same time maintain some level of confidence in your -proven- abilities.  I don’t think that it’s smart to take off in a single when the departure airport is below the landing minima.  I don’t think it’s too bright to keep flying into frontal weather without wx radar knowing that everyone else out there will be getting diversions around it, based on their equipment.  As an IFR pilot, noone will tell you this before a particular trip, like the "VFR not recommended" warning you receive in marginal VMC in the U.S.   As an IFR pilot, there are more decisions for you to make on probably less refined data. You have to think the situation through yourself and decide if your experience level matches the profile. If it doesn’t, scrub the trip and wait for a better day. In the earlier stages at least, the IFR rating doesn’t mean you can do anything.  I suspect that those who do are responsible for many of the statistics that your partner quotes.  On the other hand, once you’ve had the training and passed the rating, it’s great to be able to make a well-planned trip (as David suggests) without worrying about developing cloud or the odd rainshower.  There are also the advantages of being able to get above the cloud much of the time and cruise in comfort.  Your passengers (esp. the squeemish ones !) will certainly appreciate this. The autopilot is a tough question.  We have a basic one (Autocontrol IIIB with coupler) and it certainly helps.  Particularly for extended en-route straight and level in the murk, it takes the hard work out of the trip and reduces the kind of fatigue that leads to dopey mistakes on approach at the end.  However, I hand-fly the aeroplane in turbulence, on climb, in most of the descent, and no similar-type autopilot will be any help on approach.  Nevetheless, I’d spend the extra and get one in your situation if I possibly could, if only for the greater enjoyment of your investment in the aircraft. David’s advice about preparation and practice is absolutely correct. The more you can anticipate the route ahead, radio frequencies, expected descent points, runway-in-use, etc, the better the whole trip will go.  If you are well-prepared, even a bit more weather than you expected is no big deal. Why not take some IFR dual in your aeroplane and see how you go ?  If you really dislike it and decide it’s not for you, so be it.  On the other hand, you might really take to it and find that your flying improves in all conditions as a result.  You will also get an idea of how much benefit you’d get from an autopilot. You really must establish your own limits on this one.   Just take care, and engage brain before departure. Andrew/. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have a prospective partner for my Cessna Cardinal and both he and I : are interested in getting our IFR ratings (as a matter of fact I start : in a couple of weeks).  The plane is equipped with the basic IFR : instruments (2 VOR/ILS, ADF, mode C). : Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot : IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, : wing leveler.  He is in  a position to comment as he is an aviation : medical examiner and is privy to accident stats on a regular basis.  He also : owns an Aztec and is familiar to IFR procedures (though doesn’t have a : rating yet).  An example he gave, " you are IFR at night, turbulence, and : asked by ATC to goto a different and unexpected point, you look at the map, : trying to find where to go, and you start to get out of limits (altitude, : plane starts to roll, whatever…). I am looking for comments (hopefully some : from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how difficult : it is. Single pilot IFR has a very undeserved reputation as hard and dangerous. I fly IFR, in real IMC weather, by myself, frequently. I find the bad flights are the ones that lacked preflight preparation. The good flights are the ones for which I did more than an adequate amount of prep. Additionally, the more familiar you are with the airplane and with IMC operation, the better off you are. When you plan, don’t just copy the route to a flight-plan and fly it. Spend the time to copy headings, distances, frequencies, and anything else you find helpful onto some sort of a route card. Pick out emergency diverts along the route. Look at the route and have a good idea what other navaids are nearby. Spend at least as much time planning the route as you are going to spend flying and I think you will be well prepared. In flight, be organized. There have been lots of posts about how people arrange the cockpit. Have everything conveniently located, use a headset, and practice flying. Regards, — Dave Kuechenmeister                  |                              ++ o (_/) o ++                                     o

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: :       [snip] : : Even if you have an A/P you still must monitor the plane.   : :       very true [snip] : : Yes single pilot IFR is feasible, it just takes good training and : frequent practice.  I also agree that a headset and boom mike are : essential,  You will have enough things in your hands : without fumbling for a mike. : : — : David Cristol : :       been followin this single pilot ifr, autopilot/no-autopilot :       thread with some interest.  the amusing thing is that one :       man’s ‘nice to have’ is another man’s necessity.  i’ve flown :       sp ifr without dme, without a/p, without headset, etc. but :       now that i’ve been exposed to some of those things, i find :       i _really_ want most of them.  so, depends on the mission :       and the equipment.  during the year that i commuted between :       austin and fort worth (on a weekly basis), i logged over :       35 hours imc and 30 approaches (a dozen or so down to mins) :       in a c-150.  it had dme and headset, but no a/p.  when the :       210 got out of the shop i used it for the commute, and was :       very grateful to have the a/p.  the last time i flew the 210 :       in imc (2 or 3 weeks ago), i realized that i hadn’t practiced :       much hand-flying in awhile, so i kicked the a/p off for the :       rest of the flight (about 45 mins). :       :       so, i guess my point is, you use what you got.  people tend :       to make priorities on what to buy.  i rate dme (or maybe :       gps, i dunno, don’t have one yet) above a/p, but a/p is :       still pretty high on the list. :       :       also, how many of you guys would consider driving a ~600 mile :       trip w/o cruise control?  sort of the same principle, in a way. :       :       john prickett :       Good advice.  But it is interesting to find out what really makes a difference.  I got to hear a presentation last month by some flight control/human factors researchers at NASA Ames.  Seems the biggest single task in flying is keeping the wings level due to nearly neutral roll stability.  Turns out this consumes 20 to 40% of a pilot’s time, on average requiring the pilot’s attention once every 3 to 5 seconds. The next highest task on the list (I think it was pitch control) was an order of magnitude below this, requiring attention every 30 to 60 seconds. The end result of all this was that a _simple_ wing leveler was the single most effective method for reducing pilot workload, and that the benefit was inversely proportional to pilot proficiency (lower proficiency levels benefitted the most). So, get that rating (without the use of an A/P). And if you are still nervous about single pilot IFR, get a wing leveler and use it when you need it. Turn it off when you don’t, and maintain proficiency. Gerry —   _   =  Gerry Caron   =  Product Development Engineer   |  "Unless stated, opinions   =                                 |   my employer."      3520 Pan American Fwy NE             (505) 884-2321   v  Albuquerque NM  87107-4796      FAX: (505) 884-2384

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I have a prospective partner for my Cessna Cardinal and both he and I are interested in getting our IFR ratings (as a matter of fact I start in a couple of weeks).  The plane is equipped with the basic IFR instruments (2 VOR/ILS, ADF, mode C). Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, wing leveler.  …

Single-pilot IFR, hand flying on basic instruments is exactly what you will be tested on during your instrument checkride.  Get good training and stay proficient and you’ll have no problem. BTW, I love the Cardinal.  I currently rent a 1976 177RG but I’m looking to buy one of 1976-78 vintage. –Dan Arias Cupertino, California, USA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a prospective partner for my Cessna Cardinal and both he and I are interested in getting our IFR ratings (as a matter of fact I start in a couple of weeks).  The plane is equipped with the basic IFR instruments (2 VOR/ILS, ADF, mode C). Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, wing leveler.  He is in  a position to comment as he is an aviation medical examiner and is privy to accident stats on a regular basis.  He also owns an Aztec and is familiar to IFR procedures (though doesn’t have a rating yet).  An example he gave, " you are IFR at night, turbulence, and asked by ATC to goto a different and unexpected point, you look at the map, trying to find where to go, and you start to get out of limits (altitude, plane starts to roll, whatever…). I am looking for comments (hopefully some from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how difficult it is.

0)  Sure, an autopilot would be nice…but 1)  There is always the ever-popular "Standby" or "Unable" 2)  I thought that most autopilots had to be decoupled (i.e., not used) in moderate to severe turbulence.  If the turbulence is light, then it shouldn’t be too difficult to fly the plane by hand.  If the turbulence isn’t light then the autopilot doesn’t help anyway…. 3)  If your prospective partner is dependent on the autopilot, what is he going to do when the autopilot fails in flight? — Bob Noel aka Kobyashi Maru my views are my own not MITRE’s (why use a disclaimer when people are

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I fly a mooney exec single pilot IFR and have never used our 1 axis wing leveler.  One rule to follow is fly the plane.  If a controller say goto xyz intersection and you need a minute to look it up, so be it.  If I am unable immediatly, I inform the controller, it will be a minute and he can provide a vector if he wants an immediatte turn. Even if you have an A/P you still must monitor the plane.  I am not going to burry my head in the maps and ignore the plane because otto is flying, What if he quits? Yes single pilot IFR is feasible, it just takes good training and frequent practice.  I also agree that a headset and boom mike are essential,  You will have enough things in your hands without fumbling for a mike. — David Cristol

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto   pilot, wing leveler.  He is in  a position to comment as he is an aviation medical examiner and is privy to accident stats on a regular basis.  He   also owns an Aztec and is familiar to IFR procedures (though doesn’t have a rating yet).  An example he gave, " you are IFR at night, turbulence, and asked by ATC to goto a different and unexpected point, you look at the   map, trying to find where to go, and you start to get out of limits (altitude, plane starts to roll, whatever…). I am looking for comments (hopefully   some from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how   difficult it is. Thanks in advance,

James, To put in my one opinion in 10: I fly single pilot IFR often in a Turbo Arrow that has a finicky Piper   AutoControl IIIB autopilot.  Since it’s finicky, on days it’s not happy   (usually cross-wind and gusty days) I fly it by hand.  I’ve discovered   that it’s actually the easy IFR I want the autopilot for, not the hard   stuff.  When things are busy, I want my hands on the controls.  However,   when I’m in the soup, but it’s nice and smooth, and my next waypoint isn’t   for 100 miles, I REALLY like the autopilot.  I guess it’s because keeping   the wings level in smooth IMC is a little monotonous. Also, you must really consider the plane you’ll be flying.  My airplane   isn’t as stable as a Bonanza (especially an A36), so it’s more important   for me to have the autopilot in the Piper.  I’ve never flown a 177, so I   really can’t comment, but my guess is it’s pretty light and less stable   (like my airplane). Lastly, almost all the people I fly with have learned how to read charts.   I always ask to see the chart myself to verify their findings, but it’s   always nice to have someone point out the desired intersection,VOR, etc.   This way, single pilot isn’t TOTALLY single. Good luck! Ken Anderson Piper Turbo Arrow III N40441

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<SNIP Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, wing leveler.

Single pilot IFR is difficult. That’s why we train and fly it as much as we can. Risky because there’s no autopilot? Not if your capable and (of course) the plane does not require an A/P in the MEL.  Much more risky is an instrument rated pilot who relies on the A/P to fly the plane in IMC, (and then it craps out in the worst of times!).    He is in  a position to comment as he is an aviation medical examiner and is privy to accident stats on a regular basis.

So are we all.  Read Aviation Safety, IFR, IFR refresher, or subscribe to the NTSB reports.  BTW, does he fly a Bonanza? <BG He also owns an Aztec and is familiar to IFR procedures (though doesn’t have a rating yet).

OK, we’re taking advice from a non instrument rated pilot about flying single pilot IFR?  Please to give me a break.   An example he gave, " you are IFR at night, turbulence, and asked by ATC to goto a different and unexpected point, you look at the map, trying to find where to go, and you start to get out of limits (altitude, plane starts to roll, whatever…). I am looking for comments (hopefully some from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how difficult it is.

Fly the plane first.  Isn’t this what you’ve been taught?  Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.  If unfamiliar with the area you’re in, a simple ". . Center, I’m new to this area, could you please give me help in identifying the clearance you just gave me".   I’ve been flying single pilot IFR in my Turbo Arrow since 1977 (which was my first plane). I’ve used an autopilot for a total of three months (I know this because it’s the only time the thing worked and I refuse to fix it).  As far as flying into unfamiliar space, I can tell you that I’ve flown from Maine to Florida and the Bahamas, and west as far as Las Vegas.  My longest trip was a flight I’ll never forget… 9.1 hours IMC hand flying from ISP to FLL with two approaches to near minimums for fuel.   And yes, the autopilot didn’t work. I hope you don’t let external influence change your mind.  Buy the plane and get the rating and enjoy! Thanks in advance,

Fly safe, and stay current, Stan  Arrow 2719C Islip NY (ISP)

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: I have a prospective partner for my Cessna Cardinal and both he and I : are interested in getting our IFR ratings (as a matter of fact I start : in a couple of weeks).  The plane is equipped with the basic IFR : instruments (2 VOR/ILS, ADF, mode C). : Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot : IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, : wing leveler.  He is in  a position to comment as he is an aviation : medical examiner and is privy to accident stats on a regular basis.  He also : owns an Aztec and is familiar to IFR procedures (though doesn’t have a : rating yet).  An example he gave, " you are IFR at night, turbulence, and : asked by ATC to goto a different and unexpected point, you look at the map, : trying to find where to go, and you start to get out of limits (altitude, : plane starts to roll, whatever…). I am looking for comments (hopefully some : from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how difficult : it is. Single pilot IFR has a very undeserved reputation as hard and dangerous. I fly IFR, in real IMC weather, by myself, frequently. I find the bad flights are the ones that lacked preflight preparation. The good flights are the ones for which I did more than an adequate amount of prep. Additionally, the more familiar you are with the airplane and with IMC operation, the better off you are. When you plan, don’t just copy the route to a flight-plan and fly it. Spend the time to copy headings, distances, frequencies, and anything else you find helpful onto some sort of a route card. Pick out emergency diverts along the route. Look at the route and have a good idea what other navaids are nearby. Spend at least as much time planning the route as you are going to spend flying and I think you will be well prepared. In flight, be organized. There have been lots of posts about how people arrange the cockpit. Have everything conveniently located, use a headset, and practice flying. Regards, — Dave Kuechenmeister                  |                               ++ o (_/) o ++                                      o

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Riskier, not risky.   I think there are two considerations pilot proficiency and the simpleness of the airplane. When I am proficient as an IFR pilot (far in excess of current) I can do lots of things in the cockpit, keep a scan up, and fly the plane.  Try having atc giving you a cleared to an intersection rnav, not having it in the database, not remembering how to enter latitude/longitude into the Loran. I ended up flying the plane and reading the manual at the same time (I did ask for a vector so I was going in the right direction to buy me some time). When I am just barely current, I am lucky if I can hold course and altitude while I change frequencies. The other thing is that most of these accidents really occur through pilot overload.  Its a lot harder for a simple plane to overload than a complex one. Try flying the plane and pumping down landing gear. Also, fixed pitch props give you some indication of attitude.  You can be looking down and hear the prop get faster and know you are decending.  A constant pitch prop will let you decend without a clue.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a prospective partner for my Cessna Cardinal and both he and I are interested in getting our IFR ratings (as a matter of fact I start in a couple of weeks).  The plane is equipped with the basic IFR instruments (2 VOR/ILS, ADF, mode C). Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, wing leveler.  He is in  a position to comment as he is an aviation medical examiner and is privy to accident stats on a regular basis.  He also owns an Aztec and is familiar to IFR procedures (though doesn’t have a rating yet).  An example he gave, " you are IFR at night, turbulence, and asked by ATC to goto a different and unexpected point, you look at the map, trying to find where to go, and you start to get out of limits (altitude, plane starts to roll, whatever…). I am looking for comments (hopefully some from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how difficult it is. Thanks in advance,

This is one of those issues that if you get 10 people in a room and ask them the question, you’ll get 10 answers. I own a 1953 Bonanza and fly it IFR.  It does not have an autopilot.  I have not flown it extensively in solid IFR, but have a few flights with extended IFR under my belt.  There was a thread a while back about this very topic.  Many Bonanza owners chimed in that they do just fine without autopilots, thank you very much. In all my training and flying, I’ve never flown a plane with an autopilot. Yes, it is nice to have a wing leveler, but do not take your prospective partner’s desires as gospel.  Autopilots have their advantages and disadvantages.  They can relieve the workload, but they must be monitored. They do fail.  They add weight to the airplane. As to his example, I have several comments.  First, he brings up an extreme case.  Yes, that is a bad situation.  There is an easy solution.  DONT FLY NIGHT IFR IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE DOING SO! It’s a case of not exceeding your’s or you plane’s capabilities. If you are worried about night IFR flying in turbulent weather, and you don’t have an autopilot, then DON’T GO! As to the airplane "going out of limits", an integral part of your IFR training is something called "unusual attitude recovery", where you learn to very quickly diagnose and recover from climbing turns and descending turns.  You will learn how to multi-task during the course of your training.  You can compensate for some of this by flying part of your training at night, and after you get your rating, flying some flights at night as well. My advice would be this:  Before you spend the $$$’s on an autopilot, both of you get your ratings, then examine what type of IFR flying you do, and compare that with what you feel your skill level is.  If you still feel like you need an autopilot, then get one.

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I have a prospective partner for my Cessna Cardinal and both he and I are interested in getting our IFR ratings (as a matter of fact I start in a couple of weeks).  The plane is equipped with the basic IFR instruments (2 VOR/ILS, ADF, mode C). Now the question: My prospective partner commented that single pilot IFR is difficult (also implied as being risky) since there is no auto pilot, wing leveler.  He is in  a position to comment as he is an aviation medical examiner and is privy to accident stats on a regular basis.  He also owns an Aztec and is familiar to IFR procedures (though doesn’t have a rating yet).  An example he gave, " you are IFR at night, turbulence, and asked by ATC to goto a different and unexpected point, you look at the map, trying to find where to go, and you start to get out of limits (altitude, plane starts to roll, whatever…). I am looking for comments (hopefully some from people who fly single pilot IFR without the autopilot) on how difficult it is. Thanks in advance,

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