Question:

In your final year, apply for a position during the "milk rounds" when the large firms visit campus. A better option would be to apply directly to the "local" firms eg. if you’re in York Uni, apply to a York practice, if you’re at Cambridge, you’ll be welcome anywhere . Then you’ll have to face more exams..good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am considering doing accounting next year at college, if i was to do this i would then go on and do the degree, but after i finsh the degree i was wondering what the next steps would be to go on a become a chartered accountant?

Response:

Does your college have career counselling services? Contact the Institute of Chartered Accountants.  They have a web site, telephone, and offices.  Information you get here may be out of date or incomplete; presumably you can get complete, accurate and current information from the Institute.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am considering doing accounting next year at college, if i was to do this i would then go on and do the degree, but after i finsh the degree i was wondering what the next steps would be to go on a become a chartered accountant?

Response:

i am considering doing accounting next year at college, if i was to do this i would then go on and do the degree, but after i finsh the degree i was wondering what the next steps would be to go on a become a chartered accountant?

Response:

Question:

June 23, 2003 A Challenge in India Snarls Foreign Adoptions By RAYMOND BONNER HYDERABAD, India, June 16

Question:

Thanks, Harry, for some excellent comments.  I think we do, indeed, need to focus on enforcement and aligning the carrot with the desired outcome, but we also need to do some rethinking of the basic goals of accounting.  So far, those goals have been purely corporation/shareholder centered.  Perhaps we need to do more. I recall that some years back, before they took the wrong turn with Statement of Concepts 7 (you know, the one that departed from cost basis toward value based reporting) the FASB (and the IMA) had some debates on accounting to meet the needs of other stakeholders (like the general public).  Certainly disclosures aimed at showing what a company is really doing for society could be a welcome relief.  They also might tend to point to problems (example:  Enron had no community programs to speak of). Any thoughts from my fellow pontificators? (sorry to stray off thread, but this seemed a good place to start a new one) S.F. Cardwell Author, "Dot Com"

Response:

Harry asserts that the Enron accounting was "correct" on a separate entity basis.  I would disagree, at least with respect to two classes of transactions:  the booking of gross receipts rather than gains, and the transaction which gave rise to the $1.2 billion fraudulent paid in capital.  The transactions: Revenues:  Enron recorded as "sales" (top line) the gross sales price of energy "contracts" in which they dealt on their trading floor. These contracts were comparable to commodity spot contracts, and Enron’s activities comparable to commodity futures dealers. The Enron accounting practice is comparable to Merrill Lynch recording as sales the gross sales price of securities they were involved in trading. For Enron, this gave a not wholly unbelievable number.  For Merrill, no one would believe sales in the tens of trillions of dollars.  Enron & Anderson justified the process by citing "customary practice" in the oil and gas business.  But few ever did what Enron was doing in the oil and gas business.  What Enron & Anderson were comparing to was hard commodity transactions between dealers in the commodities.  What Enron was doing was much more like a securities trader.  Had Enron booked revenues in the same manner others who trade securities, their revenues would not have been in the top 10, and not even in the top 100 companies. Andersen justified the practice in a vacuum.  Recording the revenues the way Enron did seriously distorted the Enron financials.  While they MIGHT have been GAAP, they were in no way "fairly presented". Equity:  The real smoking gun, though, was one of the partnership transactions.  It had the effect of artificially inflating equity, with no economic substance.  It went like this:  a partnership with little capital borrowed $350 million from a bank, on a non-recourse basis, with the loan guaranteed by Enron.  The partnership subscribed to $1.2 billion worth (number of shares to be determined at closing) of Enron shares, paying a down payment of the $350.  Enron booked this as follows (millions):      Cash                    $350      Subscription Receivable  850           Equity                    1,200 On a stand alone basis, disregarding economic realities and ignorant of the full facts, one might say this was "correct."  Andersen tried to claim that Enron concealed records on some (unspecified) things. However, Andersen cannot make those claim on this transaction:  they audited both sides. Andersen’s claims that they had inadequate access to certain records also don’t ring true.  An auditor opines on the fairness of presentation, but not the details.  This means that they must look at all MATERIAL items.  Total sales is always material, as is the method used to arrive at the number.  The above equity transaction constituted more than 10% of book equity, and thus was also material. Andersen just didn’t look at these material items, or if they looked, they ignored. How could this have been prevented?  How does one "prevent" a criminal from stealing?  Some claim the deterrent effect of jail time works. That’s a debate for a different forum.  The bottom line is that, while it might be hard to prevent, we certainly should punish those who deviate so far from the acceptable.  Andersen let statements out with their opinion that were intended to and did deceive, that were not "fairly stated", and on which the deviations were very material.  This was not a failure of GAAP, but collusive fraud. Rember Equity Funding?  Same thing here.  Jail time is in order for the principals.  And shareholder lawsuits hopefully will strip them of most assets. Now back to the topic, which Lucien and Harry discuss so well below. S.F. Cardwell

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My opposition to non-historic-cost based financial accounting (should not hinder any kinds of valuations which interested parties might otherwise deem appropriate) is due its endemic abuse from the start for creative accounting (AKA "soft fraud") purposes. The same applies generally to non-cash based accounting, as manipulation of the direct cash flow statement and of cash balance reporting almost always involves "hard" (not soft) fraud. So, Lucien, how do you reconcile your belief with the new revelations of the Enron "Debt-to-Revenue" scheme? This was obviously a manipulation. But equally obvious each step of the scheme was correctly booked applying your principles (historic costs and cash based). The same applies to the AOL accounting issues which surfaced last week. Your "solution" is just too simplistic. The only possibility to get these sort of transactions under control is that accountants and auditor look "through" the transaction, determine what its real economic content and value is and book the transaction as such and not as the series of consecutive transactions it appears to be on the surface.

Harry, you often misstate or grossly misinterpret my views, which are NOT either/or but rather "do one thing without neglecting the other". You are attacking a windmill I am not inside of. You have also omitted the first part of the post and the context, making it easier for your imaginary windmill. Here are the parts you left out: Shouldn’t the title have been "Dot Con"? So called "social value added" accounting is an old concept here in Europe. Some corporations, e. g. big food and consumer cooperatives, publish a "social balance sheet" which involves calculation of gross generated value, usually some kind of gross profit, and its distribution to the various stakeholders, e. g. employees, shareholders, government, cultural institutions, benevolent institutions, etc. There is also the "ecological balance sheet" should energy consumption per unit of output, net waste production balance, etc.

Once again: re-focus on the direct cash flow statement because it is more difficult to manipulate without committing outright fraud. The income statement should IMHO receive secondary focus compared to the direct cash flow statement (which less than 10 % of entities publish, in spite of it being the FAS preferred method – why is this, Harry?). You have simply asserted that Enron accounting was correct. The items Jim Hudspeth has reported here seem to indicate that, on the contrary, there was massive collusion of investments banks, Enron and accountants to produce fraudulent financial statements, e. g. by ignoring "substance over form". And how did Andersen apply SAS 82, if at all? And what about Citigroup’s etc. auditors application of SAS 82? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Sharon KGB Iraq BND FBI smuggle Shin Beth heroine Peshawar security DES

Response:

(big snip) Once again: re-focus on the direct cash flow statement because it is more difficult to manipulate without committing outright fraud. The income statement should IMHO receive secondary focus compared to the direct cash flow statement (which less than 10 % of entities publish, in spite of it being the FAS preferred method – why is this, Harry?). I don’t know why this is. But I have already asked you before, what would that change? Unfortunately you are quite selective in your responses so I didn’t get an answer. Does it really matter if you derive one from the other or the other way around?

Well Harry, once you have understood this question and the answers we will really be communicating. IMHO it indeed does matter. The direct cash flow statement offers a degree of transparency unequaled in practice (important qualification) by any other financial statement. Based on my prior posts, the answer to the above question should be easy. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Peking genetic Khaddafi SDI Iran Noriega Albanian Cocaine explosion DES

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Harry, for some excellent comments. I think we do, indeed, need to focus on enforcement and aligning the carrot with the desired outcome, but we also need to do some rethinking of the basic goals of accounting. So far, those goals have been purely corporation/shareholder centered. Perhaps we need to do more. I recall that some years back, before they took the wrong turn with Statement of Concepts 7 (you know, the one that departed from cost basis toward value based reporting) the FASB (and the IMA) had some debates on accounting to meet the needs of other stakeholders (like the general public). Certainly disclosures aimed at showing what a company is really doing for society could be a welcome relief. They also might tend to point to problems (example: Enron had no community programs to speak of). Any thoughts from my fellow pontificators? (sorry to stray off thread, but this seemed a good place to start a new one) S.F. Cardwell Author, "Dot Com"

Shouldn’t the title have been "Dot Con"? So called "social value added" accounting is an old concept here in Europe. Some corporations, e. g. big food and consumer cooperatives, publish a "social balance sheet" which involves calculation of gross generated value, usually some kind of gross profit, and its distribution to the various stakeholders, e. g. employees, shareholders, government, cultural institutions, benevolent institutions, etc. There is also the "ecological balance sheet" should energy consumption per unit of output, net waste production balance, etc. My opposition to non-historic-cost based financial accounting (should not hinder any kinds of valuations which interested parties might otherwise deem appropriate) is due its endemic abuse from the start for creative accounting (AKA "soft fraud") purposes. The same applies generally to non-cash based accounting, as manipulation of the direct cash flow statement and of cash balance reporting almost always involves "hard" (not soft) fraud. The real issues INHO are compliance and enforcement, not so much the content of the accounting standards. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": radar CIA NORAD spy $400 million in gold bullion cryptographic Ft. Bragg

Response:

Question:

I am a contract bookkeeper looking to build a close-knit client base.  This is a small business aspiring to provide highly accurate financial records for other small businesses. How would you like to dramatically improve your recordkeeping?  To know how much money have available on a weekly basis.  To have the accounts payable paid each week.  To have the accounts receivable kept up-to-date each week. I am thoroughly trained in accounting/bookkeeping.  You don

Question:

It appears accountants spend more time on software particulars then they do on GAAP. At least in this newsgroup.  Does the craftsman control the tool or the tool control the craftsman?  It looks like accountants are getting tied-up to often and have become too reliant on the SAPs – Do accountants need to begin to set the software standards or just react to the popular SAPs?

Response:

It appears accountants spend more time on software particulars then they do on GAAP. At least in this newsgroup.  Does the craftsman control the tool or the tool control the craftsman?  It looks like accountants are getting tied-up to often and have become too reliant on the SAPs – Do accountants need to begin to set the software standards or just react to the popular SAPs?

The best apps are driven by what accountants need and request.  If the tool doesn’t do what you need it to do then you either need a different tool or you need to communicate your specific needs to the tool maker. Keep in mind that the right tool can make the craftsman both more efficient and effective but the wrong tool can be worse than no tools. The key is in determining what the right tool is.  ;) — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It appears accountants spend more time on software particulars then they do on GAAP. At least in this newsgroup.  Does the craftsman control the tool or the tool control the craftsman?  It looks like accountants are getting tied-up to often and have become too reliant on the SAPs – Do accountants need to begin to set the software standards or just react to the popular SAPs? The best apps are driven by what accountants need and request.  If the tool doesn’t do what you need it to do then you either need a different tool or you need to communicate your specific needs to the tool maker. Keep in mind that the right tool can make the craftsman both more efficient and effective but the wrong tool can be worse than no tools. The key is in determining what the right tool is.  ;) — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Yes I agree. But at times the user must be the tool maker, or at least have control over the tool including the proprietary rights of the tool.  An industry standard that would be useful across platforms, and applications would be most beneficial to accountants, but not necessarily in the best interest of the SAPs.

Response:

In the case of accounting & software, the tool eliminates the need for the craftsman. As to accountants setting software standards, Give Me A Break.  Maybe we ought to let a ditch digger command the next shuttle mission. David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It appears accountants spend more time on software particulars then they do on GAAP. At least in this newsgroup.  Does the craftsman control the tool or the tool control the craftsman?  It looks like accountants are getting tied-up to often and have become too reliant on the SAPs – Do accountants need to begin to set the software standards or just react to the popular SAPs?

Response:

A good software engineer will find the accounting concepts trivial to implement.  At most, 12 college hours, for most applications 6.  Principles, Auditing, maybe Cost and maybe Managerial.  That’s it. OTOH, most accountants are not even close to comprehending the concepts involved in a significant software development project. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I agree. But at times the user must be the tool maker, or at least have control over the tool including the proprietary rights of the tool.  An industry standard that would be useful across platforms, and applications would be most beneficial to accountants, but not necessarily in the best interest of the SAPs.

Response:

Yes I agree. But at times the user must be the tool maker, or at least have control over the tool including the proprietary rights of the tool.  An industry standard that would be useful across platforms, and applications would be most beneficial to accountants, but not necessarily in the best interest of the SAPs.

To let you know where I’m coming from, I’m a financial statement template designer.  The biggest argument that I get is "I want to be able to do it in house" or "we want to be completely self reliant". That’s fine, you have several approaches.  You can either choose to develop an effective tool or an ineffective tool.  By an ineffective tool, I’m talking about a rough framework where people have to go in and do actual formulas to make it work properly.  By an effective tool I mean one that you import the data into it and the presentation is there, saving everyone hours of work. Most people choose the ineffective tool because it gives them the illusion of control.  For the people that choose to develop an effective tool, it usually means hiring someone to do it.  Say you pay them $15/hr for six months and end up with a solid piece of work (that’s how long it took me to do my first one).  Now one of your preparers is friends with a preparer at another firm who is looking for a guy to develop their template.  So the other firm calls him and offers him $17/hr.  Now you have an adequate (don’t kid yourself here) template with no one who really knows what’s going on. The final and most effective option is to buy a solid working template that has a solid user base.  Why?  Well, what’s going to develop faster?  A template used by 15 people or one used by several hundred people?  Which one will have the bugs found more quickly?  Which one will have more features?  Keep in mind now that the developer of the large scale template can work with the package full time, meaning that if a problem occurs he can nail it right away instead of taking time away from what he’s doing at that moment. Did you design your computer?  Or just spec it out?  Did you help develop your word processor or spreadsheet?  A good chunk of accountants are computer literate enough to be able to turn the machine on.  Using a good tool means they become much more efficient at what they do.  Does a carpenter know how to make nails?  Or forge a hammer? My last and final point is that if you can develop something remotely close to what I have for sale for the cost, then you should be doing what I’m doing.  In the last year I’ve sunk over 500 hours of pure development time into it.  That also doesn’t take into account two years of template development and the lessons learned therein. But if you think you can do something remotely comparable in your spare time, take your best shot. — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

Dave, The I.T. Skills Forum in the UK conducted a survey, which concluded that 70 percent of users thought they got an inadequate return on IT investment.  A US survey of information systems auditors concluded that 30 to 40 percent of completed projects exceeded their budget and overran their timelines by between two to three times.

This is a result of our system of patents and copyrights, that gives 3rd parties a big incentive to create traps and tricks, to insert themselves in every process of modern life to extract rents. If they couldn’t get a 17-year lockin from this game of building software, then, we would get better, simpler more straightforward software. In other words, 95% of the complexity in the software originates from the need to build a business model for the vendor– NOT the needs of the application or its user.  For example anything that cannot be patented or copyrighted, doesn’t get built.  Just as drug companies bury herbal remedies that cannot be patented, even if they are superior. Just as commercial television is totally debauched by the stupid funding model of commercial advertising. What we need is more educated users.  Children should be taught in grade school, all of the tricks and traps used by the softawre companies (and all consultants, really) to suck money out of you, and build a permanent entrenched position while not meeting the needs. This indictment applies to lawyers, auto mechanics, accountants as well as software companies and programmers,  its the human condition!  So enjoy, In good humor, Todd

Response:

The following newsgroup is self-explanatory: alt.comp.software.financial

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then let us or me see what you have created. If it is of general use to accountants then something big could be done with it. Do you have Caseware?  If so, I’ll e-mail you a demo of it. Caseview or Caseware are not in my library of programs. — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

Then let us or me see what you have created. If it is of general use to accountants then something big could be done with it. Do you have Caseware?  If so, I’ll e-mail you a demo of it. Caseview or Caseware are not in my library of programs.

Caseware is one of the better write up programs.  It can import from the vast majority of accounting packages out there and with a properly set up Caseview (part of the package) template produced finished financial statements with very little fuss. http://www.caseware.com/home.asp — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

The following newsgroup is self-explanatory: alt.comp.software.financial

It is difficult these days to be both effective and profitable as an accountant without the use of good software. — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

In the case of accounting & software, the tool eliminates the need for the craftsman. As to accountants setting software standards, Give Me A Break.  Maybe we ought to let a ditch digger command the next shuttle mission.

A pungent comment.  Perhaps the accounting profession/industry  would be well served if some of its members pursued software development.  Then again maybe those that have are not in this newsgroup. What became of the xml group meeting in D.C. made up of SAPs, consultants, and accountants? Were they not setting standards? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -David It appears accountants spend more time on software particulars then they do on GAAP. At least in this newsgroup.  Does the craftsman control the tool or the tool control the craftsman?  It looks like accountants are getting tied-up to often and have become too reliant on the SAPs – Do accountants need to begin to set the software standards or just react to the popular SAPs?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I agree. But at times the user must be the tool maker, or at least have control over the tool including the proprietary rights of the tool.  An industry standard that would be useful across platforms, and applications would be most beneficial to accountants, but not necessarily in the best interest of the SAPs. To let you know where I’m coming from, I’m a financial statement template designer.  The biggest argument that I get is "I want to be able to do it in house" or "we want to be completely self reliant". That’s fine, you have several approaches.  You can either choose to develop an effective tool or an ineffective tool.  By an ineffective tool, I’m talking about a rough framework where people have to go in and do actual formulas to make it work properly.  By an effective tool I mean one that you import the data into it and the presentation is there, saving everyone hours of work. Most people choose the ineffective tool because it gives them the illusion of control.  For the people that choose to develop an effective tool, it usually means hiring someone to do it.  Say you pay them $15/hr for six months and end up with a solid piece of work (that’s how long it took me to do my first one).  Now one of your preparers is friends with a preparer at another firm who is looking for a guy to develop their template.  So the other firm calls him and offers him $17/hr.  Now you have an adequate (don’t kid yourself here) template with no one who really knows what’s going on. The final and most effective option is to buy a solid working template that has a solid user base.  Why?  Well, what’s going to develop faster?  A template used by 15 people or one used by several hundred people?  Which one will have the bugs found more quickly?  Which one will have more features?  Keep in mind now that the developer of the large scale template can work with the package full time, meaning that if a problem occurs he can nail it right away instead of taking time away from what he’s doing at that moment. Did you design your computer?  Or just spec it out?  Did you help develop your word processor or spreadsheet?  A good chunk of accountants are computer literate enough to be able to turn the machine on.  Using a good tool means they become much more efficient at what they do.  Does a carpenter know how to make nails?  Or forge a hammer? My last and final point is that if you can develop something remotely close to what I have for sale for the cost, then you should be doing what I’m doing.  In the last year I’ve sunk over 500 hours of pure development time into it.  That also doesn’t take into account two years of template development and the lessons learned therein.

Then let us or me see what you have created. If it is of general use to accountants then something big could be done with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -But if you think you can do something remotely comparable in your spare time, take your best shot. — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

Then let us or me see what you have created. If it is of general use to accountants then something big could be done with it.

Do you have Caseware?  If so, I’ll e-mail you a demo of it. — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

Then let us or me see what you have created. If it is of general use to accountants then something big could be done with it. Do you have Caseware?  If so, I’ll e-mail you a demo of it.

Caseview or Caseware are not in my library of programs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

Sure Dave, Considering 80% of IS/IT projects wind up as half-assed wastes of money that need immediate "upgrade" or "maintenance", I don’t think most software engineers have a good grip about systems analysis/design/implementation, they sure can’t control costs! The software guys need the bean counters to guide them by the hand about costs, budgeting, PM etc. At least you can rely on me to do your accounts properly (even if SAP/PeopleSoft is "integrating" it’s own colon). If you think you can become an accountant in 6 hours & fully understand the regulations, exceptions & permutations etc you are tripping. BTW look at CIMA’s paper on systems & project management – it’s pretty good, & I should know.

To design the systems you don’t need to understand all the regs.  You simply put choices in so the accountant can turn them on or off as he needs them.  If the accountant is able to communicate his needs, the programmer can produce the required results. Every financial statement is unique from two or three feet away.  Put them 10 or 15 feet away and most of them (non-public companies anyway) have very similar structures to them. I’ve created a financial statement template that is simple enough to use that you could start using it today and be fully comfortable with it in an hour yet complicated enough to be able to handle the vast majority of financial statements that a firm deals with.  As long as the accountant isn’t paying for the development time and bug fixes by the hour, who cares as long as problems are solved in a timely fashion? — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

I’m not saying you can become an accountant in 6 hours — it took me 150 or so.  But you need not have more than 6-12 hours to fully understand everything you need to know to develop accounting software.  Much more important is systems expertise — you certainly can’t get the systems expertise in 6-12 hours…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sure Dave, Considering 80% of IS/IT projects wind up as half-assed wastes of money that need immediate "upgrade" or "maintenance", I don’t think most software engineers have a good grip about systems analysis/design/implementation, they sure can’t control costs! The software guys need the bean counters to guide them by the hand about costs, budgeting, PM etc. At least you can rely on me to do your accounts properly (even if SAP/PeopleSoft is "integrating" it’s own colon). If you think you can become an accountant in 6 hours & fully understand the regulations, exceptions & permutations etc you are tripping. BTW look at CIMA’s paper on systems & project management – it’s pretty good, & I should know. Joe A good software engineer will find the accounting concepts trivial to implement.  At most, 12 college hours, for most applications 6. Principles, Auditing, maybe Cost and maybe Managerial.  That’s it. OTOH, most accountants are not even close to comprehending the concepts involved in a significant software development project. Yes I agree. But at times the user must be the tool maker, or at least have control over the tool including the proprietary rights of the tool. An industry standard that would be useful across platforms, and applications would be most beneficial to accountants, but not necessarily in the best interest of the SAPs.

Response:

Sure Dave, Considering 80% of IS/IT projects wind up as half-assed wastes of money that need immediate "upgrade" or "maintenance", I don’t think most software engineers have a good grip about systems analysis/design/implementation, they sure can’t control costs! The software guys need the bean counters to guide them by the hand about costs, budgeting, PM etc. At least you can rely on me to do your accounts properly (even if SAP/PeopleSoft is "integrating" it’s own colon). If you think you can become an accountant in 6 hours & fully understand the regulations, exceptions & permutations etc you are tripping. BTW look at CIMA’s paper on systems & project management – it’s pretty good, & I should know. Joe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A good software engineer will find the accounting concepts trivial to implement.  At most, 12 college hours, for most applications 6. Principles, Auditing, maybe Cost and maybe Managerial.  That’s it. OTOH, most accountants are not even close to comprehending the concepts involved in a significant software development project. Yes I agree. But at times the user must be the tool maker, or at least have control over the tool including the proprietary rights of the tool.  An industry standard that would be useful across platforms, and applications would be most beneficial to accountants, but not necessarily in the best interest of the SAPs.

Response:

Dave, The I.T. Skills Forum in the UK conducted a survey, which concluded that 70 percent of users thought they got an inadequate return on IT investment.  A US survey of information systems auditors concluded that 30 to 40 percent of completed projects exceeded their budget and overran their timelines by between two to three times. == Go get a spreadsheet – that’ll work! Oh I forgot, Excel has so many bugs, it can’t add up. Oh shit that’s the IT boys for ya! "Be an MSCE in 4 weeks!" – that says it all… Joe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the case of accounting & software, the tool eliminates the need for the craftsman. As to accountants setting software standards, Give Me A Break.  Maybe we ought to let a ditch digger command the next shuttle mission. David It appears accountants spend more time on software particulars then they do on GAAP. At least in this newsgroup.  Does the craftsman control the tool or the tool control the craftsman?  It looks like accountants are getting tied-up to often and have become too reliant on the SAPs – Do accountants need to begin to set the software standards or just react to the popular SAPs?

Response:

Question:

Steve Burison <SNIPPlease skip the air temperature and weather forecasts replies from the southern division of the NG, it’s just too cruel this time of year. Waiting for the water to soften

Amen to that brother…… —

Response:

You went fishing at the Washington Navy Yard?  ("WNY") – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I wish someone can help me. I was called bastard because I went fishing in February in WNY. Why? Can someone give me an answer to this? Thanks in advance.

Response:

more likely, Western New York thru the ice ??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You went fishing at the Washington Navy Yard?  ("WNY") Hi. I wish someone can help me. I was called bastard because I went fishing in February in WNY. Why? Can someone give me an answer to this? Thanks in advance.

Response:

It’s a clear case of "I wish I could fish itis" caused by too many dark, cold days inside reading fishing gear catalogs, watching Bill Dance on the tube and general out and out winter grouchiness.  Probably needs a medical sounding name for the condition. My alternate diagnosis is that it was a PETA inspired attack on your right to practice cast way before fishing season. No accounting for the actions of some people. Can’t wait til the water warms up here in the North.  Please skip the air temperature and weather forecasts replies from the southern division of the NG, it’s just too cruel this time of year. Waiting for the water to soften Steve — StevenospamBurison

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I wish someone can help me. I was called bastard because I went fishing in February in WNY. Why? Can someone give me an answer to this? Thanks in advance.

Response:

Just being there with a fishing rod while all seasons are closed could be why the taunting occurred.  If there is no species "open" you are doing something you are not supposed to be doing.  You might be better off test casting in the backyard or the park and not into the water.  Even if you are not targeting any one species, if you don’t know what you are fishing for it could get you into some hot water with the Feds! Check out your regulations for that body of water. —                                         Steve from Stony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fish. Actually, I just wanted to test out the new reel and new rod. So, I was just there casting for 50 min or so. Bass and Pike are closed. Yes. And no. I’ve never brought any fish back home. Thanks. What type of fish were you fishing for?  Perhaps the season was closed for that fish??? Check it out!  What is open at this time of year in that body of water? —                         Steve from Stony Hi. I wish someone can help me. I was called bastard because I went fishing in February in WNY. Why? Can someone give me an answer to this? Thanks in advance.

Response:

Hi. I wish someone can help me. I was called bastard because I went fishing in February in WNY. Why? Can someone give me an answer to this? Thanks in advance.

Response:

What type of fish were you fishing for?  Perhaps the season was closed for that fish??? Check it out!  What is open at this time of year in that body of water? —                         Steve from Stony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I wish someone can help me. I was called bastard because I went fishing in February in WNY. Why? Can someone give me an answer to this? Thanks in advance.

Response:

Any fish. Actually, I just wanted to test out the new reel and new rod. So, I was just there casting for 50 min or so. Bass and Pike are closed. Yes. And no. I’ve never brought any fish back home. Thanks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What type of fish were you fishing for?  Perhaps the season was closed for that fish??? Check it out!  What is open at this time of year in that body of water? —                         Steve from Stony Hi. I wish someone can help me. I was called bastard because I went fishing in February in WNY. Why? Can someone give me an answer to this? Thanks in advance.

Response:

Question:

    Hi!  To whomever reads this. I’m doing my accounting review homework and I forgot what to put in the general ledger T accounts when there is a "withdrawl $3,000 cash from the (retained earnings?) Please reply ASAP! Thank You.

Response:

Bomber – There are several answers to this question – 1) The owner could be repaying a loan he previously gave the company and therefore you would debit a liability account (Notes Payable – Owner) – 2) He could be borrowing the funds and then the debit would be a current asset -AR (A/R – Loans to Owner) 3) He could be reducing his current capital investment – debit the Equity account (Capital Investment) or 4) He could be taking a personal DRAW in which I would create a new Equity account (Draws to Owners).  Hope this helps. DeeDee Heyne D.B.H. ENTERPRISES – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Hi!  To whomever reads this. I’m doing my accounting review homework and I forgot what to put in the general ledger T accounts when there is a "withdrawl $3,000 cash from the (retained earnings?) Please reply ASAP! Thank You.

Response:

   Hi!  To whomever reads this. I’m doing my accounting review homework and I forgot what to put in the general ledger T accounts when there is a "withdrawl $3,000 cash from the (retained earnings?) Please reply ASAP! Thank You.

Debit "Owners’ Draw" Nancy Owen If you see someone without a smile – give them one of your.

Response:

Try debiting Shareholder’s Loan or Owner’s Equity – whichever you prefer.

Response:

The answer is that the withdrawal is a receivable from the owner of the business, so the debit would be in a balance sheet account called "Owner’s loan" or similar.

Response:

No Matthew, If the Owner is operating the business as a sole proprietor, Debit it to ‘Drawings’… If the business is operating via a Company or Trust, Debit it to a Loan Account named….  Loan -"Person’s Name"   (If this person has loaned money to the entity…  it may even be a liability account if it finally has a credit Balance) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The answer is that the withdrawal is a receivable from the owner of the business, so the debit would be in a balance sheet account called "Owner’s loan" or similar.

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know of an off-the-shelf POS program that interfaces with QB6 Pro? Need to set up a cash drawer to sell inventory and non-inventory parts and also record rental payments. If not, have any of you had any reliable success importing transactions and exporting the parts list to a database program such as MS Access? TIA< Ed Schaperjahn HELP! Small Business Solutions

Response:

Quit QB…..try Pastel (already has EPOS built into accounitng system) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of an off-the-shelf POS program that interfaces with QB6 Pro? Need to set up a cash drawer to sell inventory and non-inventory parts and also record rental payments. If not, have any of you had any reliable success importing transactions and exporting the parts list to a database program such as MS Access? TIA< Ed Schaperjahn HELP! Small Business Solutions

Response:

I am also of the opinion that, if the goal is to work in Access, then run the entire process in Access. There are a number of ways to import and export data in QB, but it’s clumsy compared with implementing an Access system with open source code. Also, POS has any number of variations, starting with a PC and a cash drawer to bar code, credit card authorization, and so on.   If you like, I will be happy to point you to some of the non-QB all-Access alternatives. Respectfully,  - Carl Dick 949-261-2694 Does anyone know of an off-the-shelf POS program that interfaces with QB6 Pro? Need to set up a cash drawer to sell inventory and non-inventory parts and also record rental payments. If not, have any of you had any reliable success importing transactions and exporting the parts list to a database program such as MS Access? TIA< Ed Schaperjahn HELP! Small Business Solutions

- Carl Dick 949-261-2694 800-997-7944 www.cpaccess.com

Response:

I am also of the opinion that, if the goal is to work in Access, then run the entire process in Access. There are a number of ways to import and export data in QB, but it’s clumsy compared with implementing an Access system with open source code. Also, POS has any number of variations, starting with a PC and a cash drawer to bar code, credit card authorization, and so on.   If you like, I will be happy to point you to some of the non-QB all-Access alternatives. Respectfully, – Carl Dick

Carl, I would be happy if you gave me some pointers to Access-based and other POS software. However, these would only be for future reference. This client is penny-wise and pound-foolish and does not want to convert their accounting system from something else besides QB. Hell, I can’t even get them to install a peer-to-peer network. Instead they pass floppies back and forth to print. Go figure?! I thought a quick and dirty something would get them to spring for more. Thanks for your input, though. Ed Schaperjahn HELP! Small Business Solutions

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am also of the opinion that, if the goal is to work in Access, then run the entire process in Access. There are a number of ways to import and export data in QB, but it’s clumsy compared with implementing an Access system with open source code. Also, POS has any number of variations, starting with a PC and a cash drawer to bar code, credit card authorization, and so on. If you like, I will be happy to point you to some of the non-QB all-Access alternatives. Respectfully,  - Carl Dick 949-261-2694 Does anyone know of an off-the-shelf POS program that interfaces with QB6 Pro? Need to set up a cash drawer to sell inventory and non-inventory parts and also record rental payments. If not, have any of you had any reliable success importing transactions and exporting the parts list to a database program such as MS Access? TIA< Ed Schaperjahn HELP! Small Business Solutions – Carl Dick 949-261-2694 800-997-7944 www.cpaccess.com

Go to http://www.winsellpos.com/ Winsell Express is a nice little POS program that I am setting up for a friend right now. You can export a *.iif file that can be imported directly into QB. The only problem I have is getting it to open a Fujitsu cash drawer from the Epson TM-300PD receipt printer. Any suggestions? Best regards, Craig Moore Moore Computer Services

Response:

Quicksell 2000 is access based and imports to Quickbooks. http://www.smspos.com Phyllis Phyllis Davis-Minik Owner   Advanced EDI & Barcoding Corp Pensacola, Florida                        |  (850) 492-9333 Ext. 12 $$$Find out how to improve your inventory accuracy$$$ FREE email newsletter: http://www.edi-barcoding.com/news.htm

Response:

Question:

Go to an airport where Signature doesn’t have any competition, like Miami or Newark. Even when you show up in a 10 million dollar jet, they can’t be bothered to get you turned around in good time. They will screw up the fuel order if you don’t watch them, if they remember to come and do your fueling. You have to get your own ice because it will be melted by the time they get it to the plane. At most major FBO’s, you shut down in front of the FBO’s entrance, disembark your pax, and the linemen tow the plane to parking afterwards.

I certainly agree that Signature operations vary greatly in the level of services that one receives.  It can range anywhere from totally satisfying to "I’m gonna go sleep in the plane…..".  For the fees that they charge, their level of service could be much, much better and much more consistent.   I have been to many FBO’s that had magnificent facilities, services, personnel, crew cars, maintenance, customer service, etc. that do not charge nearly what Signature charges at most places. My most recent raving has been with the service that I received at Signal Aviation in Lebanon, NH the other day.  We had arrived in a business jet with one passenger who was going to attend a short meeting, and we were to return him back to Chicago.  Of course, we were immediately flagged in by a crew of two and were chocked and red carpeted before we could get the door open.  If we would have been any closer to the front door, we’d have tore the side of the building off.  Our total ground time was no more than 1 hour, and in that time, we got refueled, a mechanic was summoned to service our oxygen (this was after normal business hours on a Friday night — mechanic interrupted his dinner at home to come to the airport), we were coffeed and iced promptly, we were given a brand new MERCEDES BENZ courtesy car, complete with cell phone to go have dinner (and this was the normal courtesy car — they have two Benz’s in fact), and we were treated to a spotless FBO building.  Upon departure, each of us crewmembers were given a small token gift of local products including a nice jug of maple syrup and fresh coffee beans.  The maple syrup is the best I’ve ever had, and I have yet to get the coffee beans ground. The small fee that was paid for their services was miniscule compared to the level of services rendered.  Operations like this are an absolute pleasure to visit.  Now granted, we dropped several grand at this establishment (gas, O2, and landing fees) during our one hour stopover, but we’d have dropped at least that much at a comparable Signature FSO and would not have received nearly that level of personal service. If any of the readers of this newsgroup happen to be in the New Hampshire area, Signal Aviation at LEB comes with my highest recommendation. I don’t really need a large, well-equipped operation. I need speed of service.

I agree to an extent, but, and I’m sure you’ll agree as well….level of service and value of said services is equally as important as speed of service. — Blue Skies, Ryan R. Healy, ATP/MEII http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/rhealy707

Response:

The two Signature’s you visited have good competition on the field. This helps keep them in line. And you gave them 2 days to complete the service. I will point out that Signature Savanah lists their hours in AOPA’s directory as being open 24 hours monday through friday. They sure as hell were NOT open the night I needed fuel to deliver some time critical components. There wasn’t even a number for call-out. I won’t use them in the future. Go to an airport where Signature doesn’t have any competition, like Miami or Newark. Even when you show up in a 10 million dollar jet, they can’t be bothered to get you turned around in good time. They will screw up the fuel order if you don’t watch them, if they remember to come and do your fueling. You have to get your own ice because it will be melted by the time they get it to the plane. At most major FBO’s, you shut down in front of the FBO’s entrance, disembark your pax, and the linemen tow the plane to parking afterwards. At these Signature’s, you shutdown in a distant corner of the ramp and your passengers fend off the rain and snow as they hike to the FBO. More than once, I have waited an hour and sometimes longer for a GPU. One time, I gave up and got it myself. If I counted on Signature’s service to impress my pax (who pay the bills), I would end up in the unemployment line. And then there are the fees they charge for this ‘great’ service. As I wrote in an earlier post, they are exorbitant. I don’t really need a large, well-equipped operation. I need speed of service. I have been turned in 15 minutes at FBO’s that were slightly more than shacks. I tipped the linemen $100 and still paid less than Signature would have charged. The pax that bought the multi-million dollar plane paid to go fast, not wait in a fancy building. D.

Response:

Fortunately, there are numerous satellite airports in the Miami area that don’t have landing fees and they don’t have Signature. D.

Response:

I’ve often wondered what legal precedence there was to charge a landing fee.

What legal precidence is there to a parking lot charging to park your car, or a highway charging a toll to drive the road?  It’s pretty much the same thing. If you left without paying, could you be charged with theft of service?

Possibly. Could you be billed?

It’s fairly common practice to record your tail number and send you a bill at some airports.  Why they bother for $5 is beyond me, but they do. Where in the FAR’s does it actually call for enforcement action based on not paying a landing fee?

Nowhere that I know of.  It doesn’t have to.  This is outside of the scope of the FARs.  Where does it say that if you tell the FBO to fill your gas tanks, you are obligated to pay for it?

Response:

CGX (Chicago Meigs) – Class Delta, $12.00 Landing Fee + $9.00 Service Fee

Don’t forget the $9 parking fee that is assessed if you stay longer than 4 ours. —                                 William LeFebvre                                 Group sys Consulting                                 +1 770 813 3224

Response:

: I’ve often wondered what legal precedence there was to charge a landing : fee. : What legal precidence is there to a parking lot charging to park your car, : or a highway charging a toll to drive the road?  It’s pretty much the same : thing. "yes, but" it is clear from reading this thread that the posting, knowledge of, and enforcement of landing fees is quite haphazard.  when i get on the turnpike, it is spelled out right there what i will pay and by golly unless i take a shortcut through a swamp somewhere i will pay it.  i am no lawyer (amen, amen, alleleujia), but a lawyer friend of mine (may i burn in hell forever) says that if you landed and were suddenly slapped with a hefty landing fee, if the fee were not sufficiently obviously posted, you probably have a good case for not paying it.   now what ’sufficiently obviously’ means is open for interpretation–but based on what we have seen so far, id say it would at least be worth looking into.  i am also not advocating anybody conscientiously break the law/FAR, of course. – adrian

Response:

a lawyer friend of mine (may i burn in hell forever) says that if you landed and were suddenly slapped with a hefty landing fee, if the fee were not sufficiently obviously posted, you probably have a good case for not paying it.

It is obviously posted.  Every airport with a landing fee (that I know of) has such documented in the A/FD.  There really is no excuse for not knowing about it.  It’s up to you to call ahead and find out the details. Some are unexpectedly high.  Most people would expect to pay an arm and a leg for landing at LaGuardia or Logan, and they wouldn’t be disappointed. But Montaulk NY, for example is a small uncontrolled stip out near the tip of Long Island.  Most people would probably expect it to be free, but they charge something like $15 for a single, more if you stay overnight. They accept no federal money.  The landing fees are their entire means of support.  The A/FD listing plainly says there is a landing fee, and gives the phone number of the airport manager.  When I called to enquire, they were friendly, but up-front about what it cost.  Had I failed to enquired beforehand, it would have been nobody’s fault but my own that I didn’t know the fee. What would your lawyer friend say about walking into a restaurant and ordering the lobster, which is marked on the menu as "market price" and then refusing to pay for it because when you got the bill it was higher than you expected but you never bothered to ask what it was when you ordered it?

Response:

CGX (Chicago Meigs) – Class Delta, $12.00 Landing Fee + $9.00 Service Fee Don’t forget the $9 parking fee that is assessed if you stay longer than 4 ours.

Yup!  And $25.00 for overnight parking.  No monthly tie-down available at all, which is kind of a bummer for those of us who live in the neighborhood and would like to be able to walk to our planes. jean. Jean Liddle                   | DISCLAIMER:  "It is unlikely that email:  jean kcco dot com     | anyone shares the opinions expressed http://jean.nu/               | here, much less my employer." Dual:  33.7 hours  PIC:   8.6 hours

Response:

That depends on the airport. Some of the airports in the NY area are known for their landing fee Nazis (Teterboro, Farmingdale, and Islip). They have people writing down N numbers or chasing you in a truck when you land.

They run you down with a truck at Trenton, even!  (Or did when I was a student, anyway.)  What a waste of time and resources for a measly $3… I was amused to call Teterboro, though, to ask about landing fees, only to have them ask for my registration number.  Turns out it’s weight-based, and when I said "N44438" he said "oh, ok, a Cherokee, 2300 pounds, $5.50."  (Or whatever it actually was…)  Teterboro’s probably the best of the lot, fee-wise, unless you’re flying something really heavy.  Park at Atlantic if you’re headed into NYC, they’re right by the bus. good luck, andrew

Response:

Anyplace one can get a list of all airports that have Signature *service* so us GA low-lifes can avoid them like the plague? Ron : Premium at MIA for piston twin is $28. Add an outrageous $140 service fee : for the sole FBO, Signature. Signature then charges you $3.08/gal for avgas : from monday to friday. : : D. :

Response:

Anyplace one can get a list of all airports that have Signature *service* so us GA low-lifes can avoid them like the plague?

AOPA’s Aviation Directory lists FBOs for each field.  If Signature is the only one listed, then you probably want to avoid it.  :- —                                 William LeFebvre                                 Group sys Consulting                                 +1 770 813 3224

Response:

Someone at work asked me how much landing fees were at the large airports. After naming two nearby, JFK and HFD, I explained one was class B and the other class C. But having never landed at either I had no idea what the landing fees would be. Anyone care to quote fees paid at various fields??? MDW (Chicago Midway) – Class Charlie, $7.00 Landing Fee CGX (Chicago Meigs) – Class Delta, $12.00 Landing Fee + $9.00 Service Fee The only two in this area that have charged me have been MDW and CGX. I assume ORD (Chicago O’Hare) charges something but I have no idea what.

JFK is $25 after 10:00 PM about $109 befor 10:00 PM plus you need a reservation befor 8:00 PM. You also get 1 hour at the terminal free. These prices are based on weight and are what I paid about 2 months ago for a Piper Archer. I never went to LGA, but I did find out that the landing fee is never cheap, I cant remember the numbers off hand but I’m sure it was over $100.00 all day. JFK is actually a good deal. For some good info on airports visit. http://www.airnav.com/ Sometimes they have the langing fees. They do for JFK. — /            John Roncallo              /

Response:

Anyplace one can get a list of all airports that have Signature *service* so us GA low-lifes can avoid them like the plague? AOPA’s Aviation Directory lists FBOs for each field.  If Signature is the only one listed, then you probably want to avoid it.  :-

I have read coments like this before about Signature, and when travelling south of the border earlier in the year, I was concerned when at Savannah we ended up at Signature. What I found there was a large, well equipped operation with comfortable  lounges, weather computer terminal, courtesy cars and helpful staff. We subsequently (after two days in Savannah) stopped at Signature in Charlotte and experienced basically the same thing (we didn’t get the red carpets that the jets got but..). So my question is what’s wrong with Signature? Terry

Response:

Someone at work asked me how much landing fees were at the large airports. After naming two nearby, JFK and HFD, I explained one was class B and the other class C. But having never landed at either I had no idea what the landing fees would be. Anyone care to quote fees paid at various fields???

On a related topic, what are the logistics of collecting/paying the fee? Do you actually go somewhere on the field, get billed by N-number, something else? —Jim

Response:

Premium at MIA for piston twin is $28. Add an outrageous $140 service fee for the sole FBO, Signature. Signature then charges you $3.08/gal for avgas from monday to friday.

WOW!!! or should I say OUCH!!! By "Premium" I’d guess you’re talking landing fee? And what if you don’t want to be "Serviced"??? Even just to park long enough to drop off or pick someone up? And I thought things were expensive up here in the Northeast… Charles N137AT

Response:

writes: Providence (PVD) supposedly charges a landing fee, but I don’t know if they enforce it for small planes.

They do, unless you buy fuel. At least they did the last time I was there. Which was over two years ago. Charles N137AT

Response:

That depends on the airport. Some of the airports in the NY area are known for their landing fee Nazis (Teterboro, Farmingdale, and Islip).

I didn’t realize Islip had a landing fee, but TEB and FRG certainly do. And sure enough, if I land there, a few months later my flying club will get a bill for it and pass it along to me.  I figure for the $5 landing fee, they probably spend a good $25 in accounting paperwork to collect it.

Response:

Someone at work asked me how much landing fees were at the large airports. After naming two nearby, JFK and HFD, I explained one was class B and the other class C. But having never landed at either I had no idea what the landing fees would be. Anyone care to quote fees paid at various fields???

I believe DFW charges something on the order of $25-$35 for Part 91 aircraft. I’ve often wondered what legal precedence there was to charge a landing fee.  If you left without paying, could you be charged with theft of service?  Could you be billed?  Where in the FAR’s does it actually call for enforcement action based on not paying a landing fee?   –Brian

Response:

Someone at work asked me how much landing fees were at the large airports. After naming two nearby, JFK and HFD, I explained one was class B and the other class C. But having never landed at either I had no idea what the landing fees would be. Anyone care to quote fees paid at various fields??? On a related topic, what are the logistics of collecting/paying the fee? Do you actually go somewhere on the field, get billed by N-number, something else?

That depends on the airport. Some of the airports in the NY area are known for their landing fee Nazis (Teterboro, Farmingdale, and Islip). They have people writing down N numbers or chasing you in a truck when you land. At Northeast Philadelphia you only paid the landing fee if you went into the FBO or got gas. If you needed a bathroom break then you get hit. If you don’t walk into an FBO the you are not their problem. Some airports take down the N number of the landing aircraft then send a bill to the registered owner of the aircraft. John – N8086N YOUR JOB IS AT STAKE! Write your congressman and senators to oppose the "American Competitiveness Act". EMail Address: |c.o.l.o.s.s.e.u.m.b.u.i.l.d.e.r.s.| |c.o.m.|

Response:

Neither HFD (Hartford-Brainard, which is Class D), nor Bradley Field (BDL, Class C) charges a landing fee for light aircraft operating under FAR Part 91 (non-commercial).  Providence (PVD) supposedly charges a landing fee, but I don’t know if they enforce it for small planes.

All airports in Rhode Island charge a $5 landing fee, which is waived if you buy fuel. That’s according to a sign in the Block Island FBO. There, the State maintains a desk at which you pay the fee, and you have to go through there to get off the field. George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

Neither HFD (Hartford-Brainard, which is Class D), nor Bradley Field (BDL, Class C) charges a landing fee for light aircraft operating under FAR Part 91 (non-commercial).  Providence (PVD) supposedly charges a landing fee, but I don’t know if they enforce it for small planes. Jeff Oslick

Response:

Someone at work asked me how much landing fees were at the large airports. After naming two nearby, JFK and HFD, I explained one was class B and the other class C. But having never landed at either I had no idea what the landing fees would be. Anyone care to quote fees paid at various fields???

MDW (Chicago Midway) – Class Charlie, $7.00 Landing Fee CGX (Chicago Meigs) – Class Delta, $12.00 Landing Fee + $9.00 Service Fee The only two in this area that have charged me have been MDW and CGX. I assume ORD (Chicago O’Hare) charges something but I have no idea what. jean. Jean Liddle                   | DISCLAIMER:  "It is unlikely that email:  jean kcco dot com     | anyone shares the opinions expressed http://jean.nu/               | here, much less my employer." Dual:  33.7 hours  PIC:   8.6 hours

Response:

Premium at MIA for piston twin is $28. Add an outrageous $140 service fee for the sole FBO, Signature. Signature then charges you $3.08/gal for avgas from monday to friday. D.

Response:

Someone at work asked me how much landing fees were at the large airports. After naming two nearby, JFK and HFD, I explained one was class B and the other class C. But having never landed at either I had no idea what the landing fees would be. Anyone care to quote fees paid at various fields??? MDW (Chicago Midway) – Class Charlie, $7.00 Landing Fee CGX (Chicago Meigs) – Class Delta, $12.00 Landing Fee + $9.00 Service Fee The only two in this area that have charged me have been MDW and CGX. I assume ORD (Chicago O’Hare) charges something but I have no idea what.

I flew into O’Hare my first (and only) time in 1993 (or was it 1994).  Right smack in the middle of a weekday. I was flying a 182.  As I recall, it cost somewhere around $70 all told. greg — greg travis                     "The coffee shop piano plays toe-tapping jazz, http://www.prime-mover.org/             — Microsoft, in "The Future is Today"

Response:

Someone at work asked me how much landing fees were at the large airports. After naming two nearby, JFK and HFD, I explained one was class B and the other class C. But having never landed at either I had no idea what the landing fees would be. Anyone care to quote fees paid at various fields??? Thanks Charlie N137AT

Response:

Question:

Jerry falwell and Phyilis Schlafly standing naked.

In the interest of efficiency, you wouldn’t really need two people.  Betty Freidan naked could cover both genders. Tim Horton — "The smoothly efficient First Lady we have seen before us, with her chameleonlike blond hairdos and charismatic smile, is actually a drag queen,the magnificent final product of a long process of self-transformation from butch to femme." — Camille Paglia

Response:

: : Jerry falwell and Phyilis Schlafly standing naked. : : :In the interest of efficiency, you wouldn’t really need two people.  Betty :Freidan naked could cover both genders. : :Tim Horton : As could Tim Horton!?

Sorry to disappoint but I couldn’t begin to compete with Betty in this arena…she’s in a class of her own.   :– :"The smoothly efficient First Lady we have seen before us, with her :chameleonlike blond hairdos and charismatic smile, is actually a drag :queen,the magnificent final product of a long process of :self-transformation from butch to femme." — Camille Paglia : So, after a bitterly sexist remark, he then goes on to quote one of the great nutjobs of our time. Great job, Tim!

Thanks, Milt, though I’m sorry that responding to Xona’s posting in like kind apparently offended your sensibilities.  I should probably have proposed a disrobed J. K. Galbraith in compromising pose with Ms. Freidan in order to maintain equality of the sexes. As for Ms. Paglia:  A professor studying the decline of slavery in this country once pointed out to me that desperate defenders of a fading status quo often reserve their foulest bile not for their idealogical antitheses, but for those of their fellow travellers unwilling to sacrifice intellectual and moral self-consistency at the altar of short-sighted and short-term political goals. Tim Horton

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: : Jerry falwell and Phyilis Schlafly standing naked. : : :In the interest of efficiency, you wouldn’t really need two people.  Betty :Freidan naked could cover both genders. : :Tim Horton : As could Tim Horton!? :– :"The smoothly efficient First Lady we have seen before us, with her :chameleonlike blond hairdos and charismatic smile, is actually a drag :queen,the magnificent final product of a long process of :self-transformation from butch to femme." — Camille Paglia : So, after a bitterly sexist remark, he then goes on to quote one of the great nutjobs of our time. Great job, Tim! –Milt http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mshook "If a person is under investigation by the Ethics Committee, and he is in a position to influence the outcome of the investigation, then he should resign immediately…"                         –Newt Gingrich, 1988

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Despite decades of efforts to improve the lot of American farm workers, wages for the nation’s more than two million farm laborers have trailed stubbornly behind inflation for the past 20 years, making it hard for many of them to afford adequate housing and other necessities. Agricultural economists and some industry surveys found that farm workers’ wages have fallen 20 percent or more over the past two decades after accounting for inflation, while a U.S. Department of Agriculture study found a 7 percent drop, to $6.17 an hour, over that period.

The real causes of this should be objectively determined, and well-thought-out steps should be taken to reverse the trend.  You go on, however, and jump to the following item. And: Green Tree Financial Corp chief executive officer Lawrence Coss received a $102 million bonus in 1996, the Wall Street Journal said Thursday. That amounted to Coss receiving $279,452 every single day last year, the Journal said.

I’m failing to see what relationship exists between Green Tree Financial Corporation, a mortgage lender for mobile homes, and the agriculture industry or farm workers.  Your point would make more sense if Green Tree was a farm corporation or even a company somehow related to agriculture, but it is not. In addition, while Coss’s bonus may or may not be obscene compared to the benefit he has brought to it’s stockholders, employees, and customers, you have provided no information with which to judge one way or the other.  As founder of the company in 1975, he is apparently not a corporate gunslinger brought in simply to cut jobs.     Nonetheless, let’s play out a scenario that redistributes income (equally, of course) to the 2 million+ farm laborers mentioned above.  $6.17/hour times 2000 hours (40 hour work weeks for 50 weeks) yields $12340/year.  In order to make up the 20 percent drop mentioned above (which, being the larger estimate, is the one labor leaders are likely to quote) one would have to increase yearly wages to $12340/.80 or $15425, an increase of $3085 per year per worker.  Multiplied by 2,000,000+ workers this means a redistribution of over $6 billion dollars which Coss’s bonus wouldn’t even begin to fund. It is certainly legitimate to question, on a case by case basis, the bonuses that corporate CEO’s get, though the final judgement should be up to the stockholders, employees, and customers of those companies.  It accomplishes nothing other than emotional pandering, however, to compare apples and oranges in a way which implies that one man’s compensation, appropriate or not, is somehow morally and numerically correlated to the misfortune of 2,000,000 workers in an unrelated field (no pun intended). Tim Horton — "The smoothly efficient First Lady we have seen before us, with her chameleonlike blond hairdos and charismatic smile, is actually a drag queen,the magnificent final product of a long process of self-transformation from butch to femme." — Camille Paglia

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Despite decades of efforts to improve the lot of American farm workers, wages for the nation’s more than two million farm laborers have trailed stubbornly behind inflation for the past 20 years, making it hard for many of them to afford adequate housing and other necessities. Agricultural economists and some industry surveys found that farm workers’ wages have fallen 20 percent or more over the past two decades after accounting for inflation, while a U.S. Department of Agriculture study found a 7 percent drop, to $6.17 an hour, over that period.

The real causes of this should be objectively determined, and well-thought-out steps should be taken to reverse the trend.  You go on, however, and jump to the following item. And: Green Tree Financial Corp chief executive officer Lawrence Coss received a $102 million bonus in 1996, the Wall Street Journal said Thursday. That amounted to Coss receiving $279,452 every single day last year, the Journal said.

I’m failing to see what relationship exists between Green Tree Financial Corporation, a mortgage lender for mobile homes, and the agriculture industry or farm workers.  Your point would make more sense if Green Tree was a farm corporation or even a company somehow related to agriculture, but it is not. In addition, while Coss’s bonus may or may not be obscene compared to the benefit he has brought to it’s stockholders, employees, and customers, you have provided no information with which to judge one way or the other.  As founder of the company in 1975, he is apparently not a corporate gunslinger brought in simply to cut jobs.     Nonetheless, let’s play out a scenario that redistributes income (equally, of course) to the 2 million+ farm laborers mentioned above.  $6.17/hour times 2000 hours (40 hour work weeks for 50 weeks) yields $12340/year.  In order to make up the 20 percent drop mentioned above (which, being the larger estimate, is the one labor leaders are likely to quote) one would have to increase yearly wages to $12340/.80 or $15425, an increase of $3085 per year per worker.  Multiplied by 2,000,000+ workers this means a redistribution of over $6 billion dollars which Coss’s bonus wouldn’t even begin to fund. It is certainly legitimate to question, on a case by case basis, the bonuses that corporate CEO’s get, though the final judgement should be up to the stockholders, employees, and customers of those companies.  It accomplishes nothing other than emotional pandering, however, to compare apples and oranges in a way which implies that one man’s compensation, appropriate or not, is somehow morally and numerically correlated to the misfortune of 2,000,000 workers in an unrelated field (no pun intended). Tim Horton — "The smoothly efficient First Lady we have seen before us, with her chameleonlike blond hairdos and charismatic smile, is actually a drag queen,the magnificent final product of a long process of self-transformation from butch to femme." — Camille Paglia

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Despite decades of efforts to improve the lot of American farm workers, wages for the nation’s more than two million farm laborers have trailed stubbornly behind inflation for the past 20 years, making it hard for many of them to afford adequate housing and other necessities. Agricultural economists and some industry surveys found that farm workers’ wages have fallen 20 percent or more over the past two decades after accounting for inflation, while a U.S. Department of Agriculture study found a 7 percent drop, to $6.17 an hour, over that period. And: Green Tree Financial Corp chief executive officer Lawrence Coss received a $102 million bonus in 1996, the Wall Street Journal said Thursday. That amounted to Coss receiving $279,452 every single day last year, the Journal said. A study in contrasts. Harry

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