Question:

On the 150 we sold we also made a profit on the s&h of $1.30 per item. You must have really stiffed your buyers to make $1.30 profit on s/h. Very few even cover all their costs on s/h. What’s the trick?  Maybe we can all learn something.  (Or is it cause you watch Oprah while packaging and / or have your neighbor drop them off at the PO?)

The trick is never sell anything you can’t hold out at arms length. It is quite easy to charge 3x your shipping costs for items which weigh only a few ounces and you will rarely hear a buyer complain.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim Most of these are Dutch and are routinely bought in quantity. Many low buy it now listings also result in an "I’ll take them all" sale. It is exceptionally rare that our actual total price per transaction is less than twenty dollars. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com According to your post, "You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7." Quantity? "I’ll take them all"? According to your theory, it is only worth the effort if you sell more than 36,000. Are you trying to tell me that you are selling 36,000 medical books in a year? Or 100 per day? Help me understand how your theory does not apply to your sales? You regularly have books listed under $20.00. According to your theory, isn’t this a waste of your time? Tim

I suspect if you went by Don’s house you would see smoke coming out of every windows One of the best of the smoke blowers

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim Most of these are Dutch and are routinely bought in quantity. Many low buy it now listings also result in an "I’ll take them all" sale. It is exceptionally rare that our actual total price per transaction is less than twenty dollars. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

According to your post, "You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7." Quantity? "I’ll take them all"? According to your theory, it is only worth the effort if you sell more than 36,000. Are you trying to tell me that you are selling 36,000 medical books in a year? Or 100 per day? Help me understand how your theory does not apply to your sales? You regularly have books listed under $20.00. According to your theory, isn’t this a waste of your time? Tim

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

Here there be monsters. Take all theories and "advice" offered here with a grain of salt. Ed

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously? It was a flip, off-the-cuff example. The "real math" shows a different answer, true, but I don’t think that invalidates my point.

OK, Dan.

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously?

By watching  a ot of Oprah.

Response:

On the 150 we sold we also made a profit on the s&h of $1.30 per item.

You must have really stiffed your buyers to make $1.30 profit on s/h.   Very few even cover all their costs on s/h. What’s the trick?  Maybe we can all learn something.  (Or is it cause you watch Oprah while packaging and / or have your neighbor drop them off at the PO?)

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously?

It was a flip, off-the-cuff example. The "real math" shows a different answer, true, but I don’t think that invalidates my point. — Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim

Most of these are Dutch and are routinely bought in quantity. Many low buy it now listings also result in an "I’ll take them all" sale. It is exceptionally rare that our actual total price per transaction is less than twenty dollars. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim

Response:

There’s elements of truth to his ideas, but he takes them to ridiculous extremes. His 30:1 ratio is one of them — is this to say that if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise.

I agree that there are elements of truth to his ideas, but the only way one can do it is to do what he does … which is dumpster dive for garbage that someone may or may not buy.  If they don’t, it goes back in the dumpster and no one cares. It would be wonderful to buy things for $1 and sell them for $30 if one could do it a lot, but one would only make $29 per transaction.  If one buys something for $100 and sells for $200, it’s only 2:1, but $100 per transaction.  I don’t know anyone who wants to throw $71 away. Nonetheless, the reason to KF him is not because he’s off the wall —   it’s because he’s become a bot without an original idea in years. It’s just tiresome to read the same stuff and see the same links month in and month out.

Whatever the reason, KF him and be done.

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

When you do find your niche, you will realize that having a viriety of related items with different profit margins will help you out in the long run.  I can give you an example. I have a favourite seller that I purchase photo and video related equipment from regularily.  He lists UV filters specific to several popular cameras. The filters, of course, are standard sizes, but he lists them with auction titles specific to popular models they fit.  He makes about 4 bucks per UV filter. This seller also has some very nice wide angle lenses that have a feature that makes them somewhat better than the standard fare found on Ebay specific to those "popular models".  He makes about $25.00 per wide angle lense.  His competitors sell an inferior product at a slightly lower price and make about $45.00 per lense.  -  He also sells a nice chamois that he makes about $3.50 on… and he has after market zoom and focus rings that he makes about $75.00 … and a couple of tripods that he makes $60.00 or so on etc etc etc etc. He gets customers by offering something they absolutely need at a good price and by shipping very quickly.  He then gains return customers because he is an attentive seller.  He has one single product in his line that is far superior to that sold by his competitors, and he sells it for a smaller profit, but at just a slightly higher price than his competitors…, so he gains some of their customers.  - Return customers and occasionally gaining a little market share from your competitors is the secret to success, IMHO. Carving out a piece of the market for yourself is more than just trying to make $9.00 or $19.63 or whatever on every item.  In fact, you can have items that you take a loss on that will help you gain sales of your higher priced items.  I think it is smart to find a range of products that are specific to something you know a lot about and that interests you so that you can give accurate descriptions quickly, and so you can answer questions quickly etc. These folks saying that photos should take hours to set up are exaggerating, I think.  If you know a lot about an item, and if you can figure out your camera and a little bit about lighting… it shouldn’t take more than a few minutes to photograph and dump your memory stick to your computer.  Along that same thought – If you know a lot about your items and their purpose, it shouldn’t really take all that long to describe those items. – And further along that same thought:  If you find a range of products and start to carve out some market share, there are tools available to make you more productive with your listings.  Practice makes perfect.  The more you sell, the easier it gets.  the easier it gets, the less time you spend doing it.  The less time you spend doing it, the greater the dollars per hour – so you can choose to put in more hours if you want more money or you can "leave well enough alone" with the thought that you are now making a very nice hourly wage and not having to spend every waking minute trying to make a buck.

Response:

Don,    How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?    You should practice what you preach. Tim

He doesn’t.  He just conveniently ignores the question whenever it comes up. Bigolhomo

Response:

We listed 400 items at $2.99 each minimum bid 2 months ago and sold 150 of them from $2.99 to high of $18. Most sold at $2.99 – $3.99. We paid .33 cents per item. On the 150 we sold we also made a profit on the s&h of $1.30 per item. Some people paid by Paypal some paid by mail. We had 1 picture we had to to for each auction with no image fixing needed since the camera did a good job. We had 3 deadbeats and filed unpaid bidder and got the refund. We were very happy with this outcome. My friend listed 2 weeks later similiar stuff but with a minimum bid of $6.99 and sold about 50 of 200 listed. He did better than me when you looked at the profit but i would say if your P&L shows profit or you can just sell off dead items then go for it!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input. When you do find your niche, you will realize that having a viriety of related items with different profit margins will help you out in the long run.  I can give you an example. I have a favourite seller that I purchase photo and video related equipment from regularily.  He lists UV filters specific to several popular cameras. The filters, of course, are standard sizes, but he lists them with auction titles specific to popular models they fit.  He makes about 4 bucks per UV filter. This seller also has some very nice wide angle lenses that have a feature that makes them somewhat better than the standard fare found on Ebay specific to those "popular models".  He makes about $25.00 per wide angle lense.  His competitors sell an inferior product at a slightly lower price and make about $45.00 per lense.  -  He also sells a nice chamois that he makes about $3.50 on… and he has after market zoom and focus rings that he makes about $75.00 … and a couple of tripods that he makes $60.00 or so on etc etc etc etc. He gets customers by offering something they absolutely need at a good price and by shipping very quickly.  He then gains return customers because he is an attentive seller.  He has one single product in his line that is far superior to that sold by his competitors, and he sells it for a smaller profit, but at just a slightly higher price than his competitors…, so he gains some of their customers.  - Return customers and occasionally gaining a little market share from your competitors is the secret to success, IMHO. Carving out a piece of the market for yourself is more than just trying to make $9.00 or $19.63 or whatever on every item.  In fact, you can have items that you take a loss on that will help you gain sales of your higher priced items.  I think it is smart to find a range of products that are specific to something you know a lot about and that interests you so that you can give accurate descriptions quickly, and so you can answer questions quickly etc. These folks saying that photos should take hours to set up are exaggerating, I think.  If you know a lot about an item, and if you can figure out your camera and a little bit about lighting… it shouldn’t take more than a few minutes to photograph and dump your memory stick to your computer.  Along that same thought – If you know a lot about your items and their purpose, it shouldn’t really take all that long to describe those items. – And further along that same thought:  If you find a range of products and start to carve out some market share, there are tools available to make you more productive with your listings.  Practice makes perfect.  The more you sell, the easier it gets.  the easier it gets, the less time you spend doing it.  The less time you spend doing it, the greater the dollars per hour – so you can choose to put in more hours if you want more money or you can "leave well enough alone" with the thought that you are now making a very nice hourly wage and not having to spend every waking minute trying to make a buck.

Response:

I think the amount was $19.63.  Whether it’s worth it or not depends on what you are trying to do.  I personally disagree with that idea and have killfiled the guy who said it.  His ideas are far too off the wall for me to bother reading anymore.

There’s elements of truth to his ideas, but he takes them to ridiculous extremes. His 30:1 ratio is one of them — is this to say that if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. Nonetheless, the reason to KF him is not because he’s off the wall —   it’s because he’s become a bot without an original idea in years. It’s just tiresome to read the same stuff and see the same links month in and month out. — Bob

Response:

Bob Flaminio: I think the amount was $19.63.  Whether it’s worth it or not depends on what you are trying to do.  I personally disagree with that idea and have killfiled the guy who said it.  His ideas are far too off the wall for me to bother reading anymore. There’s elements of truth to his ideas, but he takes them to ridiculous extremes. His 30:1 ratio is one of them — is this to say that if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise.

Actually it would be closer to $68 in your pocket (off the top of my head) if it is a PayPal sale. (not including your prorated water bill, the 2 hours you spent getting the photo just right and the time it took you to lick the stamps, Don’s website will explain the importance of those things Don came up with a business model that works well for what he sells and assumes that it will work for anyone. There are no magic ratios or minimum sales, it is about how much money you make vs. the amount of time & money you put into it. Having said that… I personally no longer sell anything on ebay for less than $10-15 because I have to put up with too much bullshit in proportion to the amount of fees I pay at that level; in other words, it isn’t worth it. — Mac Cool

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? It’s not worth it if you have to take a picture of every item. You could spend half an hour on the picture (or more,) plus ten minutes describing and listing (more if you have to research,) time to reply to questions, pack, drive to the PO, etc. Even if you invest only an hour’s work, you will probably make less than minimum wage after fees. Try Wendy’s instead! On the other hand, if you sell the same things over and over with the same picture and description, and need only to click through "sell similar" once a week, it is more plausible. You may make $5.00 for twenty minutes of work and average $15 an hour. This beats fast food or retail for a part time job. With a low cost of living, it can even make a full time wage. mjoann

It might even approach a unity Levenworth Ratio. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously? Lumpy — Here ya’ go! http://www.digitalcartography.com/Cumulus19FULL.mp3

At best, they might be able to keep $49. You would have to reliably and consistently repeat this three times a day 24/7 for a marginal income. With no employees. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

 he’s become a bot without an original idea in years. It’s just tiresome to read the same stuff and see the same links month in and month out. — Bob

As long as the newbees keep showing up and asking the same questions month in and month out, I think it’s kinda nice to have somebody willing to be The Bot and answere all those boring questions.   I say :  Thanks Don

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise.

If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously? Lumpy — Here ya’ go! http://www.digitalcartography.com/Cumulus19FULL.mp3

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice?

It’s not worth it if you have to take a picture of every item. You could spend half an hour on the picture (or more,) plus ten minutes describing and listing (more if you have to research,) time to reply to questions, pack, drive to the PO, etc. Even if you invest only an hour’s work, you will probably make less than minimum wage after fees. Try Wendy’s instead! On the other hand, if you sell the same things over and over with the same picture and description, and need only to click through "sell similar" once a week, it is more plausible. You may make $5.00 for twenty minutes of work and average $15 an hour. This beats fast food or retail for a part time job. With a low cost of living, it can even make a full time wage. mjoann

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

I think the amount was $19.63.  Whether it’s worth it or not depends on what you are trying to do.  I personally disagree with that idea and have killfiled the guy who said it.  His ideas are far too off the wall for me to bother reading anymore. This is my thinking:  if you are making money and having a good or decent time doing it, go for it.  It doesn’t matter if you are making $1 on each item or $100.  It’s up to you to decide how much you need to make and go to it.  You may not get rich doing it, but you’ll be fine.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input. http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Another reason for the magic $19.73 threshold — There is virtuallly no bitching over shipping charges or buyer nickel and diming above this level, and great heaping bunches below. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

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Question:

Hello, I am from Poland, and have over six years professional experience in audit and accounting area in one of the Big 4 company in Poland. I completed all exams to be polish cerified auditor. I have good knowledge of UK GAAP, US GAAP  and IRFS (of course local polish accounting standards as well). I would like to cooperate with accounting and consulting companies from UK and USA. regards,

Response:

Hello, I am from Poland, and have over six years professional experience in audit and accounting area in one of the Big 4 company in Poland. I completed all exams to be polish cerified auditor. I have good knowledge of UK GAAP, US GAAP  and IRFS (of course local polish accounting standards as well). I would like to cooperate with accounting and consulting companies from UK and USA. regards,

Response:

Question:

Why concern youself? You have $100 invested in that entity. However much you get for EVERYTHING from that puter is your profit (or loss).

Not quite.  Everything you get is your revenue.  Everything you get minus the $100 is your profit or loss. The reason for concern is because the same problem arises in any situation when you buy a group of things with different values.  If you buy 50 widgets for $10 and they’re all going to sell for the same price, then they each cost you 20

Question:

:Simon, who has to get back on the motorway in a few hours. Where are you going? Have a safe trip {{{{{Simon}}}}} Jackie ~*~Acting like a witch…..Eating 14 chocolate bars…..this isn`t a holiday for

Response:

Back to my fathers house in Leicester.  It is sad but the nursing home need someone nearby to keep them on their toes.  I also have to do some stuff to ensure his business is still running as it should. Fick! I hate accountants and lawyers.  They are only one layer of pond life above doctors.  

Oh my Simon you have me laughing here )) My sister, the lawyer, is the exception to this

That si nice especcialy since she is family ! I will drive fast enough to ensure that all the bad drivers are behind me

That’s the spirit me boy Jackie Simon, clearing the junk out of his London home so he can sell it.

I didn’t know you where selling your house. Where are you moving to Simon ? Closer to your dad ? Much love from Anna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Emails to the AOL name go into the bit bucket. Use the reply-to: address for email

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Question:

Let’s not forget that both the WorldCom and Enron insolvencies, layoffs and collapse were caused NOT by their reporting frauds but by massive negative cash flow over a long time, and no prospects for recovery. They both went belly up because of *particularly bad* business decisions during the telecom bubble which was, itself a combination of a mass delusion among investors and some executives, and a mass taking from them by many individuals in finance, capital equipment, and within the companies who knew the investments wouldn’t pay off. Let’s have fun crucifying these Kenneth Lay types.   But the real issue is where the money actually was spent. Hundreds of billions of cash went into stocks and bonds, into telecom companies and out to equipment vendors, properties, construction contracts, and all kinds of financial and marketing and supply chain intermediaries and software companies that delivered *nothing*.  Who are all *those* people? Where is the beef? Hundreds of billions of dollars! And the CTOs and IT staffs who presided over these vast wastes of assets, should be held very responsible. They have a very special responsibiity because there is no way anybody else but professional IT people could understand what they were doing.  It took hundreds of years, to fix the professional responsibilities of controllers, auditors, lawyers, etc. now, let’s penalize IT technologists who make excessive promises. The fact is telephone, wireless and internet equipment and software underperformed so badly it was possibly the biggest factor in the  meltdown of technology stocks. The shit was so insecure you couldn’t even use it. Software and hardware vendors intentionally cocked up their designs just to be incompatible with other vendors, to the injury of users and carriers. etc.etc. Small wonder Andersen didn’t fight the capitalization of operating expenses.  There were so many other intangible assets that were no more concrete.  YOu fall into this mental impression that the whole gestalt is what matters, what makes the company run.  The whole thing is an asset, even maintenance labor.  All assets!  If I were a 25 year old staff auditor I would be in awe of these vast pyramid companies. I would say "Glory hallalujah, brother!  Amen!" and get in my BMW without a worry. A lot more telecom companies will fail in the coming 12-24 months. So what.  That’s how markets operate. Sometimes I wonder if fraudulent reporting isn’t itself, an intentional technique to destroy the company in a more total and cathartic way.  In one stroke, it diverts attention from the whole rotten cabal of financiers and vendors who really got the money, it creates a lot of disorganization, doubt, and disruption around fiber and equipment taking it off the market to reduce the excessive supply, hopefully forever. It scrambles up the information of how the company operates, by blowing away all the employees who knew how to operate anything. These big frauds are the least-cost way for the industry together with its financiers.  They stick the blame on a couple of bigshots and some outside auditors and let the whole system, itself continue. The only hard part is getting enough people like Bernie Ebbers, Scott Sullivan, Kenneth Lay, John Sidgmore, etc. etc. to spread the blame around in plausible ways.  Well that can be arranged when, behind the scenes, directors and conspirators might be agreeing to pay them hundreds of millions.  I myself, would be glad to sit in prison for 4 or 5 years like Michael Milken etc. for that kind of money!  With THAT much money I could pay off enough politicians like Marc Rich did, and get completely pardoned, TOdd

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FRom http://www.townhall.com/columnists/wfbuckley/printwfb20020629.shtml townhall.com William F. Buckley, Jr. (back to story) June 29, 2002 Redirecting a managerial class  I know a distinguished social pathologist who is wondering, at this juncture, whether there is a new component in the economic picture in America. Something is certainly new, given the near-daily advent of a fresh company detected in evasion and worse. The free-market models give us: entrepreneurs, stockholders, accountants, federal watchdogs, bankruptcies — and jails. The mix of those elements is supposed to encourage thrift, investment, merchandising, and profits — to the stockholders and to the buying public. What appears to the inquirer as unique in today’s situation is a body of actors who disengage from the accepted disciplines and do so with apparent impunity. The big question today is: Are these individual miscreants, or do we have an operating class beyond the reach of the law, on the order of the profession of prostitution? We have here the second wave of apparently deracinated evildoers in the course of a single year. The first was the priests, who, in outrageous defiance of primary obligations of their profession, abuse children, no less. Abusing stockholders is perhaps less iniquitous. But this set of miscreants are giving reasons why they did as they did, high exercises in self-exculpatory art. When an official of WorldCom reports that he could see nothing wrong, let alone unusual, about classifying moneys dispensed as capitalized expenditures when in fact they were moneys spent in doing business, the question arises: Can that man see anything as wrong? And if so, does he emerge as simply one criminal practitioner, or is he a member of a class newly acceptable in American business? There has been speculation over two generations about who actually controls business enterprise. James Burnham, in l940, argued the thesis of the Managerial Revolution. It isn’t the stockholders who run things; it is the people they nominate to serve in management, people they almost immediately lose control of, he argued. This is so because keeping up with what they do, let alone supervising what they do, is a practical impossibility. Stockholders are left with the power to remove, which can be likened to the power of Congress to impeach. They have the advantage of a hypothetical watchdog, requiring the execution of certain formalities, like a company’s annual reports. What was envisioned as supplementing stockholders’ rights was the concept of the public’s rights. A WorldCom CEO who dissimulates damages his stockholders, but hurts also a public that, taking heed of what happened at WorldCom Inc., hesitates to back other ventures, slowing down the dynamic of capitalism and inducing skepticism about the very idea of private enterprise. Congress is busy trying to come up with revised systems of auditing. The most prominent reform being discussed is outlawing the accounting firm that acts in a second capacity as company consultant. That idea would seem to be commendable, though the practice of it could be hard on the smaller of the 16,000 publicly traded companies that would now have to add an entire service echelon to the cost of doing business. What is needed quickly and extensively is: punishment. In the late l930s, no less a figure than a former president of the New York Stock Exchange went to jail for the misuse of funds. This is not a call to the denial of due process, but a call to the legitimate use of public punishment as a retributive act. In the public-school lore of Great Britain there is the story of the senior boy nailed for public indecorum and had up for a flogging. He pleads, in deference to his seniority, to be punished outside the view of voyeuristic fellow students. Permission denied, on the grounds that the public humiliation was an essential part of the punishment. Richard Whitney was sent to jail in l938. We need his successors to go to jail in 2002. The alternative is to sit by, supine in the gestation of a managerial class that violates the very idea of a capitalist class bound by laws and practices which make it a proud part of a free economy, whose leaders in large enterprises have done their best to discredit. This is a very real public issue and inevitably will separate many Republicans from many Democrats. The possibilities open to demagogues are great. But the Republicans would do eternal disservice to their responsibilities if they failed to take action against the great post- Marxian challenge to capitalism.

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To: David Farber <*******cis.upenn.edu Dave: Some of my readers suggested I send this to you regarding Worldcom. It’s from my issue of May 6 and appears online at http://www.a-clue.com/archive/02/cl020506.htm [.......] The expected bankruptcy of the largest Tier One Internet Service Provider follows the bankruptcy filing of Global Crossing, and the more-recent filing of Williams Communications (http://news.com.com/2100-1033-888913.html). Sitting in the bankruptcy waiting room are such companies as Qwest (http://quote.yahoo.com/q?h=1&s=q&d=v1) and AT&T (http://quote.yahoo.com/q?h=1&s=t&d=v1). Do you notice the pattern? All these filings prove the same point, Moore’s Law applies to fiber. Because fiber capacity can be expanded exponentially using Wavelength Division Multiplexing, with capacity increasing by a factor of 1,000 (http://www.firstpr.com.au/telco/articles/wdm_links.html), the billions of dollars invested in the 1990s ringing the globe and every major city with fiber can’t be recouped. Infinite supply and a finite demand creates a price of near-zero. Since Internet telephony has also been incorporated into phone switches over the last few years, turning voice into bits, long distance voice prices too are plunging toward zero. The latest estimate I read was that it costs 2/10th of a cent per minute to move a long distance voice call, and 155 Mbps fiber lines were recently leasing for as little as $15,000 per month (http://dc.internet.com/news/article/0,1934,2101_1016421,00.html). Those 10-10-220 calls (run by Worldcom) are a major rip-off. The billions of dollars invested in fiber throughout the 1990s were invested based on the assumption that the value of fiber bandwidth would rise over time, due to increased demand. But even if phone companies, cable companies, wireless providers and ISPs had managed to convince people to buy broadband, even if sites were free to deliver broadband content, and even if everyone had "last mile" services at affordable prices, Moore’s Law would not have kept bandwidth prices level. It’s not just a matter of having everyone wired to broadband, but of everyone demanding the services of broadband at once, that fills those fiber pipes. Moore’s Law is putting all of the telecommunication industry’s big balance sheets – voice and data, national and international, wired and wireless – in the dumper. Since it’s cheaper to buy an "all you can eat" long distance plan from a cellular provider than a wire line carrier, AT&T and Sprint are just as threatened as Worldcom. This competition will eventually put cellular providers under pressure. Moore’s Law operates everywhere, meaning such giants as Deutsche Telekom, British Telecom, and Cable & Wireless are all under threat. I’ve been warning about this for years. But it doesn’t really help to be right. The question is what will we do about it? In Net Paradox (http://www.netparadox.com/) David Isenberg and David Weinberger propose that governments take major networks out of bankruptcy and run them as public utilities. In his latest "Cook Report" (http://cookreport.com/11.03-4.shtml) Gordon Cook claims the ILECs, or the "Teleban," are succeeding in getting government policies that force consumers to buy their monopoly services at monopoly prices. But even a government bailout of the ILECs and re-monopolization on behalf of the "Teleban" would be a short-term fix. Moore’s Law is irresistible, and it applies to radios, not just fiber. Other nations are applying this Moore’s Law of Radios to their own wireless worlds, so American intransigence could mean Mexico or even South Africa will have better service than Americans within the next five years. In any case, America’s monopoly of telecommunications capacity is going to end, because it’s so cheap to reproduce it. Even if you’re totally "clued-in," Moore’s Law means that billions of dollars in long-term debt, originally rated AAA, won’t be repaid. It can’t be, because the customer revenue needed to repay it can’t come in. The first point to be made today is we’re just at the start of this crash. Enron, which was highly leveraged based on rising bandwidth prices (it tried to make a market in the stuff), was just the tip of the iceberg, the canary in the mine shaft. These early-year bankruptcies are like the recent calving of the Ross Ice Shelf (http://nsidc.org/iceshelves/larsenb2002/). The actual event is like global warming, only in fast-motion. The second point is that this doesn’t completely sink the telecommunications equipment sector. Moore’s Law means that wireless broadband will continue to improve, and thus such "last mile" solutions will find a market. New fiber routing systems and diodes that increase fiber capacity will continue to be sold, to someone, because they do pay for themselves. But a lot of people talked in the 1990s about the idea that "bandwidth is free" and as they get their wish some will find it a nightmare. How should we deal with this? The first and most important thing to do is go through the grieving process, starting now. We’re still in denial – we need to reach acceptance. This is a titanic financial event, and given the inter-relationships between the public sector and telecommunications (financial interdependencies in many developing countries) it’s going to pop to the top-of-the-stack for real policymakers, not just elites. Left unmanaged (and it’s unmanaged today) we’re talking about a reversal of the recent "recovery" by the third quarter, with many of our very-best jobs disappearing. We’re talking about a deflationary spiral rivaling that of the 1930s. What’s the solution? Government will have to step in and buy this unused cap acity at some point, spinning it out (hopefully at a profit) following a reorganization. That’s what the laws of capitalism demand – stock and bondholders made mistakes and must pay. It’s funny, though, how many "market conservatives" will be calling for bail-outs in the next few years. When they do, bring a laugh track. There’s another lesson. Connectivity by itself is worthless. Only services, content, and software are meaningful. There must be a market negotiation to value services, content and software, in a world where their delivery costs nothing. Trying to ban technology turns the economy’s chief profit-center into nothing but a cost-center. This (http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-891781.html)  can’t be borne. There’s a lesson for you and I in all this as well. Make something unique, then make something else. This is something folks in the computer business have accepted for decades. It’s the only way out of Moore’s Law. And it’s coming to a telephone near you.

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Question:

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away Ron Todd Washington — Four in five Americans in an Associated Press poll say they feel that tax cuts generally benefit someone else, a sentiment they hold even after 86 million tax rebate checks worth almost $40 billion were mailed last year by the Bush administration. A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY, 72 percent, also said they would vote for a congressional candidate who supports a balanced budget over one who prefers tax cuts, according to the poll conducted for the AP by ICR of Media, Pa., a few weeks before the annual mid-April deadline for filing taxes. The bottom line:  Tax cuts aren’t helping.  What’s your comments? Americans have become stupid.

When the tax cuts went through the politicians were missing the bigger picture.  Sure tax cuts are nice but first and foremost this country needs 1.  a job that will be here tomorrow and 5 years from now.  2.   an employer who will be here tomorrow and 5 years from now.   3.  Cheep and abundant energy for transportation, heating our homes, heating our place of employment.   One of the quotes from the above article says "A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY, 72 percent, also said they would vote for a congressional candidate who supports a balanced budget over one who prefers tax cuts."  Translation: The american people don’t beleive congressional candidates who say they won’t raise taxes.   To reply remove no spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Washington — Four in five Americans in an Associated Press poll say they feel that tax cuts generally benefit someone else, a sentiment they hold even after 86 million tax rebate checks worth almost $40 billion were mailed last year by the Bush administration. A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY, 72 percent, also said they would vote for a congressional candidate who supports a balanced budget over one who prefers tax cuts, according to the poll conducted for the AP by ICR of Media, Pa., a few weeks before the annual mid-April deadline for filing taxes. The bottom line:  Tax cuts aren’t helping.  What’s your comments?

Good. There’s two ways to balance the budget. Cut spending or raise taxes. Both of those are usually opposed by large majorities as well. Shawn Pickrell

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Washington — Four in five Americans in an Associated Press poll say they feel that tax cuts generally benefit someone else, a sentiment they hold even after 86 million tax rebate checks worth almost $40 billion were mailed last year by the Bush administration. A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY, 72 percent, also said they would vote for a congressional candidate who supports a balanced budget over one who prefers tax cuts, according to the poll conducted for the AP by ICR of Media, Pa., a few weeks before the annual mid-April deadline for filing taxes. The bottom line:  Tax cuts aren’t helping.  What’s your comments? Good. There’s two ways to balance the budget. Cut spending or raise taxes. Both of those are usually opposed by large majorities as well.

More than likely, there’s _no_ way to provide a feedback loop that _balances_ the budget. That would require that there be close ties between the people setting spending budgets and the people setting tax rates.   When _reality_ is that those functions are typically managed in completely different government departments, and when policies aren’t set in a way that allows changing rates at the _end_ of the year, any notion of "income" equalling "outflow" is just some sort of Alice-in-Wonderland fantasy. (Note: That’s not just my opinion; that comes from someone who was once responsible for changing the accounting of some billions of government activities back when a billion was worth something…) — http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/multiplexor.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #206. "When my Legions of Terror park their vehicle  to do  reconnaissance on  foot,  they will  be instructed  to employ The Club." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/

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Washington — Four in five Americans in an Associated Press poll say they feel that tax cuts generally benefit someone else, a sentiment they hold even after 86 million tax rebate checks worth almost $40 billion were mailed last year by the Bush administration.

I’d like to find those Americans who they think they received most of the $40 billion of tax cuts.  Does this question make any sense? There are 86 million people. OF COURSE someone else is going to get most of the money! The correct question the AP wanted to ask is "Did ‘the rich’ benefit more than you?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY, 72 percent, also said they would vote for a congressional candidate who supports a balanced budget over one who prefers tax cuts, according to the poll conducted for the AP by ICR of Media, Pa., a few weeks before the annual mid-April deadline for filing taxes. The bottom line:  Tax cuts aren’t helping.  What’s your comments?

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Debt is the road of ruin. Increasing debt is an ever higher dose of dope.  Everyone, governments in particular, should pay as they go. Face reality. Live within their means. What is the concrete meaning of "liberty" when governments tax away 50 % and more of citizens’ hard earned incomes?

The German word for borrower is "Schuldner" and has the same root as "schuldig" = guilty or owing. Selling out the future for the present. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": domestic disruption munitions von Buelow North Korea PLO Serbian CIA NSA

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Debt is the road of ruin. Increasing debt is an ever higher dose of dope.  Everyone, governments in particular, should pay as they go. Face reality. Live within their means.

Yes.  Unfortunately, with our progressive tax rates and welfare payments over half the population doesn’t have to directly repay the debt. Consequently, they see it in their own self interest to borrow now, someone else pay later.  Stupidity seems to triumph in all cultures, eventually. What is the concrete meaning of "liberty" when governments tax away 50 % and more of citizens’ hard earned incomes?

It seems the majority no longer have any concept or desire for "liberty."  What I see is a desire to be kept like a whore. It is kind of like "tribal" thinking has triumphed where power is the desired attribute.  As one can attain power by destruction more easily than by construction, the mass defaults to an orgy of self destruction. Pitiful.  Western civilization seems to be gorging itself on the seed corn of future generations. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

The bottom line:  Tax cuts aren’t helping.  What’s your comments?

Helping who?  They help politicians get reelected, in the sense that rebates help sell cars.  No one expects that car dealers or politicians consciences will be bothered when they "fool" ignorant customers into thinking they’ve gained something, under the no-harm, no-foul theory. The increasingly ignorant populace will eventually bring our little republic down, sadly.  So let’s enjoy it while it lasts! But the only true tax cut would eliminate Title 26 and free us all up to do something more productive. Mike (I never said that )

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–BUT, the number one detriment to strong economic activity is a tax –increase. WRONG again, while burdensome taxes can retard and even destroy certain economic activity.  Freedom of Markets, Freedom to pursue advancement, freedom to reap the rewards of ones efforts are far more important.  To wit, advances in the computer field and development of the internet were far more important than the clinton tax increase of 1993.  I do not favor high nor punitive taxes, but I realize that true economic freedom and reward are far more important. — — WRONG -the number one factor on budget deficits/increases is strong economic activity

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –BUT, the number one detriment to strong economic activity is a tax –increase. WRONG again, while burdensome taxes can retard and even destroy certain economic activity.  Freedom of Markets, Freedom to pursue advancement, freedom to reap the rewards of ones efforts are far more important.  To wit, advances in the computer field and development of the internet were far more important than the clinton tax increase of 1993.  I do not favor high nor punitive taxes, but I realize that true economic freedom and reward are far more important. — — WRONG -the number one factor on budget deficits/increases is strong economic activity History does not support your belief.  I think what your doing is relying on dogma. You might want to read Adam, "For Good and Evil."

If the economy is doing badly, it’s certainly not likely that government budgets will balance without them actively hiking tax rates. There are two main factors that go into determining how much is collected in taxes:   a) The tax rate, which usually doesn’t vary terribly much from year      to year, and   b) The economic base to which the tax rate is applied. It’s hardly "radical left-wing political dogma" to expect that if the economic base is "strong," there is more likely to be a tax surplus than if the economic prospects are poor. It seems rather more like simple arithmetic.  A little beyond mere "accounting," dominated by addition and subtraction, in that this requires the more sophisticated mathematical construct known as _multiplication_, but that hardly seems a leap into a "Marxist dialectic." — http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html "NT 5.0 is the last nail in the Unix coffin. Interestingly, Unix isn’t in the coffin… It’s wondering what the heck is sealing itself into a wooden box 6 feet underground…" — Jason McMullan

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History does not support your belief.  I think what your doing is relying on dogma. You might want to read Adam, "For Good and Evil." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –BUT, the number one detriment to strong economic activity is a tax –increase. WRONG again, while burdensome taxes can retard and even destroy certain economic activity.  Freedom of Markets, Freedom to pursue advancement, freedom to reap the rewards of ones efforts are far more important.  To wit, advances in the computer field and development of the internet were far more important than the clinton tax increase of 1993.  I do not favor high nor punitive taxes, but I realize that true economic freedom and reward are far more important. — — WRONG -the number one factor on budget deficits/increases is strong economic activity

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

— –Good. There’s two ways to balance the budget. Cut spending or –raise taxes. Both of those are usually opposed by large majorities –as well. WRONG -the number one factor on budget deficits/increases is strong economic activity

Response:

BUT, the number one detriment to strong economic activity is a tax increase. — –Good. There’s two ways to balance the budget. Cut spending or –raise taxes. Both of those are usually opposed by large majorities –as well. WRONG -the number one factor on budget deficits/increases is strong economic activity

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

BUT, the number one detriment to strong economic activity is a tax increase

I don’t think anybody would dispute your point, that "the economy" declines if tax rates get higher and higher.  Even the government itself, is well aware that there is a theoretical tax burden that maximizes their own revenue.  In other words, the average individual and company quits producing when their average burden much beyond 1/3. But Ron– another question is, what do you mean by "economic activity"? You culd point to Soviet era Russia, where there was high rates of "economic activity" but much of it was going right into the toilet, as waste.  Similarly, our "GNP" statistics are loaded with CRAP that is imposed by state planners and the Kleptocracy, that don’t even serve anybody’s hierarchy of needs. Prosperity in America, according to our masters in New York and Washington DC is apparently calculated by adding up the gross consumption and dividing by the average consumer.  That might be plausible, if it was distributed more evenly, but look what’s in the basket of products!   Most of the GNP is just crammed, forced consumption. Like, the whole public sector.  Or, like my car, which I loathe, and the freeway and gasoline.  Or my computer, which I loathe, Or the whole banking and telecoms sector, all crammed top-down not for MY benefit but for the benefit of the system itself. That’s not quality of living!  The numbers are baloney. The only answer to these problems, that I can imagine, is for individuals to drop out of their jobs in the command economy, i.e. their jobs in corporations, and participate instead in P2P business dealings directly with each other.  Barter of course is impossible in a complex economy, and even direct buy/sell quantified in money, has been impractical in the past.  But the internet enables particpation in partnerships and other joint collaborations.  LLCs can be constructed in seconds, of arbitrary complexity.  Computers can do this stuff. The problem is human beings don’t understand their own goals, purposes and the means to achieve them, that have become possible since the emergence of Internet and distributed financial systems (multiparty webledgers, or whatever you want to call them. ) Todd Todd Boyle CPA  9745-128th Ave NE  Kirkland WA International Accounting Services, LLC  www.gldialtone.com 425-827-3107  AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BUT, the number one detriment to strong economic activity is a tax increase. — –Good. There’s two ways to balance the budget. Cut spending or –raise taxes. Both of those are usually opposed by large majorities –as well. WRONG -the number one factor on budget deficits/increases is strong economic activity

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Washington — Four in five Americans in an Associated Press poll say they feel that tax cuts generally benefit someone else, a sentiment they hold even after 86 million tax rebate checks worth almost $40 billion were mailed last year by the Bush administration. A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY, 72 percent, also said they would vote for a congressional candidate who supports a balanced budget over one who prefers tax cuts, according to the poll conducted for the AP by ICR of Media, Pa., a few weeks before the annual mid-April deadline for filing taxes. The bottom line:  Tax cuts aren’t helping.  What’s your comments? — Adrian D’Souza / Internet Success Coach Check out the information that will unlock your doors to success and money. IT IS FREE!  http://www.secrets2success.com/special203880

Response:

Washington — Four in five Americans in an Associated Press poll say they feel that tax cuts generally benefit someone else, a sentiment they hold even after 86 million tax rebate checks worth almost $40 billion were mailed last year by the Bush administration. A SUBSTANTIAL MAJORITY, 72 percent, also said they would vote for a congressional candidate who supports a balanced budget over one who prefers tax cuts, according to the poll conducted for the AP by ICR of Media, Pa., a few weeks before the annual mid-April deadline for filing taxes. The bottom line:  Tax cuts aren’t helping.  What’s your comments?

Americans have become stupid. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

Question:

It seems QuickBooks really now has an upgrade disk that requires installation of a prior version before it can be installed. That makes no sense to me. Okay, Mr. Block. In the past you’ve stood up for Intuit and devote at least a good part fo your practice to it. It now looks like you are admitting a mistake, which has made you in my eyes gain quite a bit of legitimacy and esteem.

I think Mike always "shoots straight" when it comes to Intuit.  When the payroll tax table changes first took place in QB2K, Mike was a very outspoken critic of Intuit.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems QuickBooks really now has an upgrade disk that requires installation of a prior version before it can be installed. That makes no sense to me. Okay, Mr. Block. In the past you’ve stood up for Intuit and devote at least a good part fo your practice to it. It now looks like you are admitting a mistake, which has made you in my eyes gain quite a bit of legitimacy and esteem. I think Mike always "shoots straight" when it comes to Intuit.  When the payroll tax table changes first took place in QB2K, Mike was a very outspoken critic of Intuit. Okay, then I guess i’m wrong. I just saw from his postings here he seemd to minimize Intuit’s problerms.

Probably because most software "problems" are operator error. — Brandon Sommerville Sommerville Consulting Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com toll free voice message/fax: 1-877-271-9800  ext 9789053

Response:

Okay, Mr. Block. In the past you’ve stood up for Intuit and devote at least a good part fo your practice to it. It now looks like you are admitting a mistake, which has made you in my eyes gain quite a bit of legitimacy and esteem.

Thank you, but I make too many mistakes every day to admit them all. Does anyone have a five inch floppy drive in their new system? I do, but only because I bought one specifically to use for my old Dos programs. I know I am alone among all of my friends. I’m sure Intuit or someone else would use my example as proof that work-arounds can be done, but why? Shouldn’t Intuit bear some responsibility or at least be a little less skeptical?

Of course, we should all be skeptical. I mentioned the 5 inch disk, which very few have, as an example of many good reasons why users may not be able to reinstall an old version and why upgrade disks are a bad idea. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It is clearly completely inconsistent with the Intuit goal of revolutionizing our finances by making things simple. I apologize for doubting the initial report of this and will do what I can to stop this practice. All is forgiven. you have nothing to owe me anyway, but It’s good to see an adult male do that. I guess you see why people complain here. As you’ve mentioned before, you don’t seem to have run into as many or any problems with Intuit before. Even if those problems are small, it is still a significant problem for the people who have to deal with it. The fact that Intuit doesn’t seem to care, and will charge you for it’s "free" tech to fix it, seems to be another indicator of their service costs, as now instead of them paying for those things like service you paid for, they can break their contract with impunity and have you pay for the "guarantee" and the tech service to fix.

Of course I know why people complain. Many complaints are real, though many are operator error. With beta tests, newsgroup activities and the support of many clients in 16 states and 3 countries, I see more than my share of problems. That is why I often recommend that even end users become QB Pro Advisors. For little more than the cost of QB you also get their top tech support people with the shortest wait. Many times I only look smart because I call these experts, or some top QB managers I know, to solve problems. In fact, after waiting for the Pro Advisor program to add email support, I am about to pay extra for Premier support. An hour or so of my time is worth about what I will pay for it in a year. I know Intuit policies say it should not charge for installation or bug related problems. I also know it is likely that companies growing as fast as Intuit will have people who do not know all their policies. As long as I can get improper charges reversed when I hear of them, as I have, I do not hold such mistakes against them. If none of us a perfect individually we surely cannot expect everyone in a big company to be perfect. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The upgrade idea is something I am sure they borrowed from M$. I had this same problem with my Win 98 SE recently, and had to reformat my C drive because of it. Under the new full Win98 SE rather than the upgrade version I had installed from a friend, my CD drive would not work, and now sits on a shelf above my computer. Net cost to me: $55 for original drive, $50 to take to a techie to reinstall windows and add in drivers downloaded from the internet which I obviously couldn’t get, and another $27 plus S&H for a new drive. There is nothing I can do to change it. So I can see now where Intuit customers like the original complainant are in the same boat I’m in, and now your prospective clients are. Although I think your desire to "do something" is admirable, I’m nto sure to what end it will come. You pay for something, like insurance, that you may never get. There is nothing you can do to recoup your money invested or time lost either…all you can do is switch to another program to do the same work. Might I suggest AccPac? I here they are based in canada. I here Canada still has laws concerning quality and customer service. Perhaps they are a worthwhile alternative. More proof that accounting is now dead…..no integrity=no accounting. I’m just sorry too, that as accounting dies, it will take people like yourself, eventually Hudspeth and of course Mr. Ron todd with it. You al lseem to care about your customers and your profession, which seems to suffer from a lack of perception of need.

I think that the training and legal obligations of CPAs often make us more client oriented than most commercial software companies. We often have a clear legal obligation to do what is best for clients, even if it is not best for us. Of course, some of us do not fully comply with such obligations in all cases. Intuit has no such legal obligation. It often tries to improve customer relations at the expense of immediate profits but, like all of us, it sometime makes mistakes. You do not have to go any further than these upgrade disks to see where, in my opinion, they made a mistake. One of their top managers already told me he had not heard about this before and would investigate. On the other hand, you do not have to go any further than an email I got today from them to see them trying hard to do exactly what accountants want in a planned QuickBooks for Accountants (please see my related post under that heading). In any event, everything and everyone I have seen at Intuit suggest that they do an amazing job and will continue to do so, despite occasional bumps. That is all I could ever ask for a friend or partner.      Mike Block – Tax Cut CPA  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester     FREE  NetLedger accounting   FREE 462p QB books/error codes 100+ QB add-ons http://blocktax.com/

Response:

… I think that the training and legal obligations of CPAs often make us more client oriented than most commercial software companies. ..

Why on earth would anyone ever think that commercial software companies were client oriented! Flame on.   That’s right in there with the "union is for the working man," and "the Democrats are for the common man."  I think most people have seen enough to know that just about everyone out there is working in their own self interest.  Any benefit to you and me is purely incidental or one of those rare cases of "enlightened self interest."   Flame off. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *   Unemployed six years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia       * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

.. I will agree to this on the condition we extend it up the chain of authority to the idiots who installed, bought, chose, etc…. Huzzah to the manager who saved the company money by not hiring a qualified accounting early enough in the game to save the enterprise from its inevitable destruction.  They are the substance of B-School case studies. Probably because most software "problems" are operator error. Objection! Speculation! "Over-ruled"

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *   Unemployed six years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia       * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Warning to all QB 2001 upgrade version people, for god sakes do not lose your old QB disc you will not be able to reinstall the QB 2001 from the upgrade disk.  This version requires the old edition to be able to install QB 2001.   My had lose her disk of QB 99 and Intuit told her to What a wonderful company Intuit is,  They don’t care about their customers at all.  I think I would be embarassed to be Quick Books advisor will stuff like this going on.  All Intuit wants is the money in your wallet. Joe Ogle

Response:

Warning to all QB 2001 upgrade version people, for god sakes do not lose your old QB disc you will not be able to reinstall the QB 2001 from the upgrade disk.  This version requires the old edition to be able to install QB 2001.   My had lose her disk of QB 99 and Intuit told her to What a wonderful company Intuit is,  They don’t care about their customers at all.  I think I would be embarassed to be Quick Books advisor will stuff like this going on.  All Intuit wants is the money in your wallet.

I do not understand this. There is no upgrade version of QB. There is only a full version that is sold for a discounted price with a rebate. I got rebates for clients who registered before and by producing the old disk or bar codes on those who were not registered.      Mike Block – Tax Cut CPA  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester     FREE  NetLedger accounting   FREE 462p QB books/error codes 100+ QB add-ons http://blocktax.com/

Response:

It seems QuickBooks really now has an upgrade disk that requires installation of a prior version before it can be installed. That makes no sense to me. Viruses and system changes often make us install again. At the very least this wastes time and disk space, while adding extra registry baggage. It is normal to discard old program disks after installing new ones. The old disks or CDs also may be damaged or become incompatible with the new system. Does anyone have a five inch floppy drive in their new system? It is clearly completely inconsistent with the Intuit goal of revolutionizing our finances by making things simple. I apologize for doubting the initial report of this and will do what I can to stop this practice.      Mike Block – Tax Cut CPA  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester     FREE  NetLedger accounting   FREE 462p QB books/error codes 100+ QB add-ons http://blocktax.com/

Response:

Question:

I quit the Washington Society of CPAs this year. Nothing personal, but just couldn’t justify the $300 or whatever it is. Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back.   I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property. Huh?  What are they talking about?  I seem to recall getting some WSCPA stuff– the coffee mug and T-shirts, but I think I threw away the bumper stickers and other paper stuff.  I hope they’re not going to sue me, I thought we were just a club <g Todd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA. Hopefully you’ll find those organizations to be more helpful than the AI- and WS- CPA. <g MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA) http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back.   I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property.

Hmm–well I have my certificate from the Arizona Society (it’s framed and on my wall) and I can kind of understand *why* they don’t want people to pay dues once and then leave it on the wall <grin, but I don’t recall agreeing to send it back if I left the society. I think this is a bit of overkill.  After all, if you intentionally misled people to have them believe you were a member of the Washington Society when you are not, I would assume that would a) be very stupid if you ever got pulled into court (lying about credentials is going to make you look like you committed malpractice no matter what you do) and b) would likely be actionable as an "act discreditable to the profession" by the Washington State Board of Accountancy (similar to if I claimed to be a CFP or PFS when, in fact, I am not). The more interesting part is that most people claim their memberships not so much from clients seeing the framed membership certificate but rather from assertions made on letterhead and business cards.

Response:

Back in the remote backwater of my mind somewhere I seem to have a vague shadow of a recollection of having the same thing happen when I declined to renew with the AICPA.  It was 1979 and I was not of sound mind (I was going through a very painful divorce).  As well as I can recall, I threw the letter in the round file and forgot about it.  I don’t think they contacted me again regarding the matter. Now they just want me to join again, which I am not presently inclined to do. Jim Hudspeth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back. I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property. Hmm–well I have my certificate from the Arizona Society (it’s framed and on my wall) and I can kind of understand *why* they don’t want people to pay dues once and then leave it on the wall <grin, but I don’t recall agreeing to send it back if I left the society. I think this is a bit of overkill.  After all, if you intentionally misled people to have them believe you were a member of the Washington Society when you are not, I would assume that would a) be very stupid if you ever got pulled into court (lying about credentials is going to make you look like you committed malpractice no matter what you do) and b) would likely be actionable as an "act discreditable to the profession" by the Washington State Board of Accountancy (similar to if I claimed to be a CFP or PFS when, in fact, I am not). The more interesting part is that most people claim their memberships not so much from clients seeing the framed membership certificate but rather from assertions made on letterhead and business cards.

Response:

Comes now, in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back.

I remember returning my certificate years ago when I resigned. I ~think~ this requirement is in the bylaws… (The bylaws also require – or at least used to – that if you tried to re-join after having resigned, you had to pay the back dues for all of the intervening years! I wonder just how many times anyone has done that? <g) MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Write to the State Society that the certificate is available for them to pick up at your office during office hours next week. After that, it will go to the trash. (They may actually show up !) Y.M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I quit the Washington Society of CPAs this year. Nothing personal, but just couldn’t justify the $300 or whatever it is. Comes now,  in the mail, a letter asking for their "certificate" back. I agreed when I joined that the "certificate" was WSCPA property. Huh?  What are they talking about?  I seem to recall getting some WSCPA stuff– the coffee mug and T-shirts, but I think I threw away the bumper stickers and other paper stuff.  I hope they’re not going to sue me, I thought we were just a club <g Todd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA. Hopefully you’ll find those organizations to be more helpful than the AI- and WS- CPA. <g MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA) http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Back in the remote backwater of my mind somewhere I seem to have a vague shadow of a recollection of having the same thing happen when I declined to renew with the AICPA.  It was 1979 and I was not of sound mind (I was going through a very painful divorce).  As well as I can recall, I threw the letter in the round file and forgot about it.  I don’t think they contacted me again regarding the matter.

I was with the AICPA for a year, then decided that the dues amount was needed for another bill.  They asked for their Certificate back.  Since I never opened it I just wrote "return to sender" on the front and stuck it back in the mail about 9 months after I got it. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

Mike, Thanks for the follow up. I heard the same thing from a Washington Association of Accountants guy.  Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA. Jim Hudspeth, CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To follow up on some earlier discussions around here, I recently received a preliminary copy of the minutes from the WA State Board rules hearing in July. Said minutes indicate that the board is now considering *completely eliminating* the minimum "accounting and auditing" subject requirement from the board’s CPE rules (Yea!!!). This change should be approved at the board’s next meeting in October. MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Incidentally, I have applied for membership in the WAA and NSA.

Hopefully you’ll find those organizations to be more helpful than the AI- and WS- CPA. <g MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

To follow up on some earlier discussions around here, I recently received a preliminary copy of the minutes from the WA State Board rules hearing in July. Said minutes indicate that the board is now considering *completely eliminating* the minimum "accounting and auditing" subject requirement from the board’s CPE rules (Yea!!!). This change should be approved at the board’s next meeting in October. MTW -Michael T. Wing, CPA (WA)  http://www.versatax.com/

Response:

Question:

(snip) But then the local dealer tells Larry, "We are under no obligation to service any Sea Ray boat we don’t sell.  We would probably service it, but you would be put at the end of the list waiting for service." — Curtis "Fast Forward"

Maybe the actual context was, "yes we will service it, but you will be at the end of the line for service"  Why should any new customer expect to be moved ahead of existing customers who are waiting for service??? What service center would jeopardize the relationship they had built with long term customers? Larry has already proven he is not a long term reliable customer. Maybe the local dealer has read "Customers for Life" and that is his business model. Larry already knows he doesn’t agree with the local dealers business model, so why is he surprised? As an independent service shop I would send non-profitable, painful customers to the authorized dealer because it helped me competitively. The service manager at the dealership would thank me at trade association meetings.  Myles J. Swift – Computer Assistance Inc. – Microcomputer specialists   since 1977. Makers of GarageKeeper and Motive Power software for    automotive and other mechanical repair and service businesses.

Response:

He bought it *way* out of town at a steep discount. That’s why I’m uncomforatble with this whole dealer bashing thread. The boat was bought 480 miles away — this already makes the servicing dealer justifiably unhappy. Next, the dealership name is splattered all over (along with Sea-Ray’s) as part of the problem. At this point, the servicing dealer has made nothing on this transaction and has endured grief to boot.

Are you saying the dealer doesn’t get paid for performing warranty service? While Larry could have handled things a bit differently, I have a hard time giving the Charleston Sea-Ray dealer much sympathy.  Larry saved a significant amount of money, he claims $2000, by going to the trouble of driving nearly 1000 miles to get his boat. The local dealer wouldn’t or couldn’t match the price.  Well – thats called competition.  The local dealer losses the sale.  He’ll have to sell the boat to someone else, and probabaly will. But then the local dealer tells Larry, "We are under no obligation to service any Sea Ray boat we don’t sell.  We would probably service it, but you would be put at the end of the list waiting for service." That was a pretty stupid move on the part of the dealer.  I wonder what was going through his head?  Let me guess…  "Larry is going to drive nearly 500 miles to save a couple of grand on his boat.  Well, I guess I lost that sale, but I’ll show him!  I’ll tell him how he is going to get substandard service if he doesn’t pay my higher price.  That will set him straight.  Will that blow up what remaining, long-term business relationship I can still salvage with Larry?"  I guess the answer is "yes, it could." So not only did Sea-Ray of Charleston loss the boat sale, they won’t make a dime off Larry after this last transaction.  Larry has a keyboard and will tell everyone he knows how he was treated.  What did he say? "I won’t even buy a drop of oil from these guys…"   The dealer probably thought is little extortion threat would be harmless.  Bad guess – Larry has a huge public forum of people interested in boating…and a big mouth.  Why would any smart business person pay so much for bad advertising? — Curtis "Fast Forward"

Response:

Quality control sucks for most mass-produced American products. There’s a very good reason for this. For most Americans, PRICE is the deciding factor in the buying decision. If they have a choice of two similar goods, 99% will buy the cheaper even if it’s obviously shoddier.

I brought this up in the thread about "certified mechanics". Someone complained how products are engineered to be manufactured cheaply but are often expensive to repair as a consequense. Vote with your dollars is right. — —

Response:

[snip] | | Quality control sucks for most mass-produced American products. There’s | a very good reason for this. | | For most Americans, PRICE is the deciding factor in the buying decision. | If they have a choice of two similar goods, 99% will buy the cheaper | even if it’s obviously shoddier. Also, clever marketing adds "prestige" | irrespective of actual utility to the consumer; and that meaningful | quality control is expensive. | | However, advertising gets more expensive all the time… | | Fresh Breezes- Doug "Vote With Your Dollars" King Yup, you are exactly right.  That’s why the boats bringing in Yugos can’t unload fast enough while tumbleweeds blow through the Honda dealers’ parking lots.  And Buffalo Tools have driven Sears Craftsman to the brink, and Packard Bell has wiped out Compaq, HP and IBM.   No, wait, that’s not how it is.  Maybe the consumer isn’t as dumb as you think. And didn’t your mama tell you "Quality is Free"?  Mine didn’t but she did say something about the oats that have been through the horse already were a lot cheaper.  :-)  Guess it was Deming or someone who said "Quality is free". — Del Cecchi  

Response:

It’s a basic consumer protection to scream "Lemon!!" I appreciate the warning even I’m not personally shopping for a motorboat. Sea Ray has also treated me with respect, even though I think the company has too many accountants buying parts and too few quality control inspectors asking questions and raising hell. Larry….Still lovin my Sea Ray!

Quality control sucks for most mass-produced American products. There’s a very good reason for this. For most Americans, PRICE is the deciding factor in the buying decision. If they have a choice of two similar goods, 99% will buy the cheaper even if it’s obviously shoddier. Also, clever marketing adds "prestige" irrespective of actual utility to the consumer; and that meaningful quality control is expensive. However, advertising gets more expensive all the time… Fresh Breezes- Doug "Vote With Your Dollars" King

Response:

He bought it *way* out of town at a steep discount.

That’s why I’m uncomforatble with this whole dealer bashing thread. The boat was bought 480 miles away — this already makes the servicing dealer justifiably unhappy. Next, the dealership name is splattered all over (along with Sea-Ray’s) as part of the problem. At this point, the servicing dealer has made nothing on this transaction and has endured grief to boot. This one just doesn’t sit right with me. Regards,                 Dave Brown                 Brown’s Marina

Response:

The 3/8" hose slides right off, and that’s why they used 2 hose clamps.  Someone MUST have seen this on the assembly line floor. But, to stay out of trouble with their boss, perhaps, didn’t say anything or raise any questions.

You don’t know if they would have used 2 hose clamps even if the hose were a better fit (somebody else said something to the effect of all fittings at bilge level have 2 clamps). You don’t know who made the decision to use 2 clamps or the larger hose and whay their reasoning was. You seem to be alleging willful negligence, which would mean they knew there was a problem of forseeable consequence which they took insufficient steps to correct. I’d agree that this is a quality control problem.  I’m speculating the 3/8" hose is on most all their small craft and is used because that’s the fittings the gas tanks come with….wanna bet?

No, I don’t want to bet, and you probably shouldn’t either. — —

Response:

Step back and take a deep breath.  Its wonderful if the SeaRay Corp and all SeaRay dealers read everything on rec.boats and get annoyed when they see negative information about the product.  They CAN’T AFFORD to see that stuff because it has such a negative effect on sales.  Sure, they may try to squelch your communication on these issues, but you better believe they are going to take a hard look at the reported problems and see if they need to do something about it.  If you are going to post information about a product, good or bad, why not send a cc to the manufacturer.  Trust me, it will get their attention. I can’t believe the GM of SR of Charlston will really withold service to your boat because you reported a problem with the product.  That could put his job at risk when the facts hit the newsgroup or the press or SeaRay Corp. Butch Davis-

Response:

He bought it *way* out of town at a steep discount. "Corporate America".  My defective oil tank, a Mercury part not Sea Ray’s, and the side panel were ordered today by the dealer I bought the boat from who COULDN’T be any nicer. I’m curious Larry, why didn’t you take the boat back to the purchasing dealer originally? Regards,                 Dave Brown                 Brown’s Marina

– Harry Krause EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address – - – - – - – - – - "Polka-dot?"     "If you insist…"

Response:

[substantial snip] The first ammendement does not say "Sea Ray shall make no law…. abridging Larry’s right to rant and rave…" Just my thoughts. You KNOW that’s not what I said at all.

Well if you want to get literal about everything we write in a post, I never claimed to be quoting you on the first ammendment.  So in response I could say, "I never siad you did". Sea Ray had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with this little display from an independent dealer this morning.  Not that they would rather noone said anything was wrong with the products, like the rest of the manufacturers.  Of course, we ALL know blame for product defects rest SOLELY on the consumer, in our blameless society.  If anything happened it was Paula Jones’ fault.

Actually, here in California, we are blaming all of our problems on El Nino.  ;-) But *YOU* brought up the constution.  You posted: "…  I’d also like to WARN any of you that we are being intensely watched by these corporations and, if you are depending on them to do warranty work, like I was, you probably should not exercise your constitutional rights of free speech by posting your boat’s problems here… " I simply pointed out that the constitution doesn’t belong in a description of your current problems with your boat, a local dealer, the manufactuer, Paula Jones, or Mr. Nino… I agreed that the dealer should have handled the public relations end of this a bit differently.  Then I said that part of your soapbox speech did not support your position. Regards — Curtis "Fast Forward"

Response:

With all due respect, Larry (I have nothing at all against you), what the hell did you expect?  To tell you the truth, I have not paid much attention to anything you have said about service problems with your boat (though I thought it was supposed be superior than a PWC powered JB…sorry…just a little dig on ya. <g) But I who are you really pissed at?  Two lurkers that went "behind your back" and told someone about things you are saying in public?  This is a public forum.  Anything you say on this newsgroup might as well be on the evening news because anyone can read it.  If there is chance that saying something can get you in trouble with someone, you should think twice about saying it here.

I’m amazed at how much power they seem to feel we wield on a simple newsgroup forum of opinionated people, like me.  I do believe they are afraid of us here.  As long as you are posting THE TRUTH, you cannot be sued for libel.  Why do you think Clinton hasn’t sued Rush Limbaugh?  Your statements must be true, or at least unprovably false. Then you are in trouble. I am a little ticked at the sneaky bastards who are kissing the dealer’s ass for some reason.  I guess they think they will gain favor for themselves from their little stunt.  But, as you say, it’s a public forum…and…EVERYONE here IS entitled to their opinion on any subject.  That’s why people reading the postings on all newsgroups becomes so credible.  Real People…Real Experiences. However I think your beef with Sea Ray of Charleston is legit.  You have a right to tell people that you aren’t satisfied.  And in fact, a smart business person will assume that a dissatisfied customer wil tell ten times as many people about his experience than one who is satisfied.   The GM oboviousy made a stupid move by confronting you and threatening you with discontinued service because he just got a lot more bad press. I assume I can trust you about who the discussion really went down – and based on that assumption, I wouldn’t give that dealership the time of day.  That GM may have a different version of the story.

What he asked me to do was to not say anything about any problem with the boat BEFORE consulting with them for a repair job…FIRST.  If I was happy with their repair job, I was supposed to keep quiet about what was wrong with the boat.  He was pissed that I had posted BEFORE getting the boat fixed…not after.  If the boat was properly repaired, I was supposed to keep my trap shut, which isn’t an option. I lived in those countries where you were afraid of the secret police and didn’t say anything about anything because you never knew who had who in their pockets.  If the country degenerates into that, I’ll leave.  Unfortunately, there aren’t many places that HAVEN’T degenerated into that to go to.  At that point, boating becomes moot and survival becomes important. Anyway.  Back to my point.  Don’t assume that non-interneters will not find out what you have been saying.  If you make enough noise and talk enough trash, other people can still find out.

Oh, I wasn’t afraid of non-internetters reading my posts.  Not at all. It’s too bad he was talking without my post in his hand.  Maybe the lurkers here will figure out how to print the posts to make him a little book of this thread.  He was operating on 2nd hand hearsay information, not too credible, eh? On a secondary issue.  Please don’t recklessly about your "constitutional rights".  Sea Ray and Sea Ray of Charleston are not violating your rights.  The Constitution protects you from, in general, the government, not private persons or even entities.  The dealer had every right to say that continuing to make negative public remarks about them or their products could hurt your business relationship – they can’t necessarily void your warranty (unlees it says something like "void if vessel is modified or owner talks smack about us").  

Fine.  I’ll simply go elsewhere the next time I have a few thousand to spend.  Others seem glad to have my money….in cash.  I’m finding warranty contracts to mean less and less each year as quality of products, especially large ticket products, declines.  The federal laws are quite clear on product warranty claims.  If the company, not this dealer, refuse to fix anything, or cannot fix it in a "reasonable time", it’s the BUYER’S option to replace the entire unit or to have a full, complete refund of all money spent.  15 USC 50 section 2300 up. Very interesting reading.  That’s why WalMart is SO friendly when you return goods, it’s the law, not because they are great, wonderful people trying to please you.  They successfully figure, as a business decision, to put the best face on defective product returns, not piss everyone off by fighting it.  But, it seems around $3000, corporate atitude changes to a fight-to-the-last attitude, trying to shove defective products like cars, trucks, boats, RVs, houses, big ticket stuff, down consumers throats no matter what the law says. The first ammendement does not say "Sea Ray shall make no law…. abridging Larry’s right to rant and rave…" Just my thoughts.

You KNOW that’s not what I said at all.  Sea Ray had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with this little display from an independent dealer this morning.  Not that they would rather noone said anything was wrong with the products, like the rest of the manufacturers.  Of course, we ALL know blame for product defects rest SOLELY on the consumer, in our blameless society.  If anything happened it was Paula Jones’ fault. Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two lurkers who I’ve never seen on rec.boats but who obviously read this newsgroup reported to Sea Ray of Charleston’s general manager that I was on the newsgroup slamming Sea Ray because I post the problems I have encountered with my new Sea Rayder F16XR2 to this newsgroup and rec.sport.jetski.  I found this out this morning when I took my Rayder in for warranty service. The general manager caught me at the front door, talking to the service manager on our way out to the parking lot to look at the fuel hose and leaky oil tank.  He informed me that if I were to continue to post to this newgroup my problems with my boat, seeing as how I did not buy the boat from Sea Ray of Charleston, that I could no longer bring my boat to his dealership for warranty service.  The service manager and I went on about our business looking at the problems and I left the boat. But, over the course of the next hour, eating away at me inside about someone trying to silence my freedom of speech, I made the correct decision.  I decided my constitutional rights of free speech were worth FAR MORE than Sea Ray of Charleston’s warranty service.  As a matter of fact, I’ve decided my constitutional rights of free speech are worth more than the whole damned Brunswick Corporation…Bayliner and all! I’d like to thank the two silent SOB’s who won’t email me directly but go behind my back to SRofChas.  They are fine examples for all.  I’d also like to WARN any of you that we are being intensely watched by these corporations and, if you are depending on them to do warranty work, like I was, you probably should not exercise your constitutional rights of free speech by posting your boat’s problems here.  It’s hard on sales, me thinks.  It may be better to just shut up and keep quiet so’s not to piss off anyone at the company….whatever company you must deal with. To the two SOB’s, I don’t give a damned if you print this and hand it to the general manager of Sea Ray of Charleston.  I won’t be going back there for so much as a drop of oil….STUFF IT! Larry….still a free American…I’ll fix my own damned boat. — Curtis "Fast Forward"

Response:

"Corporate America".  My defective oil tank, a Mercury part not Sea Ray’s, and the side panel were ordered today by the dealer I bought the boat from who COULDN’T be any nicer. I’m curious Larry, why didn’t you take the boat back to the purchasing dealer originally? Regards,            Dave Brown            Brown’s Marina

I did today, Dave.  He’s in Birmingham, about 480 miles away.  No problem getting the parts and putting them on myself. Larry.

Response:

On a brand new boat, I would hold the manufacturer of the boat responsible, not the suppliers from whom he picked pieces and parts. It’s not like your compass was bad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ya gotta love CORPORATE AMERICA, eh? In all fairness to Sea Ray, the company, Harry…They had NOTHING to do with this confrontation this morning, that I know of.  The general manager was representing his own dealer’s interest, but presented himself as a representative of the company.  My dealings with Sea Ray, the company, have been very well handled. Until I find out otherwise, Sea Ray, itself and Brunswick Corp had nothing to do with what was said to me by this local dealership, today.  Please don’t include anyone who was not involved, such as "Corporate America".  My defective oil tank, a Mercury part not Sea Ray’s, and the side panel were ordered today by the dealer I bought the boat from who COULDN’T be any nicer. If any of you need to talk to a good Regal dealer, who has a few Sea Rays left over, Dead Ahead Marine Products in Birmingham, AL, owned by Roger Reed at 205-991-2614 (fax 205-991-2694) is a fine dealership to deal with…(c; Sea Ray has also treated me with respect, even though I think the company has too many accountants buying parts and too few quality control inspectors asking questions and raising hell. Larry….Still lovin my Sea Ray!

– Harry Krause EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address – - – - – - – - – - "Do fuzzy black holes have any hair?" — Larry Niven

Response:

Two lurkers who I’ve never seen on rec.boats but who obviously read this newsgroup reported to Sea Ray of Charleston’s general manager that I was on the newsgroup slamming Sea Ray because I post the problems I have encountered with my new Sea Rayder F16XR2 to this newsgroup and rec.sport.jetski.  I found this out this morning when I took my Rayder in for warranty service. The general manager caught me at the front door, talking to the service manager on our way out to the parking lot to look at the fuel hose and leaky oil tank.  He informed me that if I were to continue to post to this newgroup my problems with my boat, seeing as how I did not buy the boat from Sea Ray of Charleston, that I could no longer bring my boat to his dealership for warranty service.  The service manager and I went on about our business looking at the problems and I left the boat. But, over the course of the next hour, eating away at me inside about someone trying to silence my freedom of speech, I made the correct decision.  I decided my constitutional rights of free speech were worth FAR MORE than Sea Ray of Charleston’s warranty service.  As a matter of fact, I’ve decided my constitutional rights of free speech are worth more than the whole damned Brunswick Corporation…Bayliner and all! I’d like to thank the two silent SOB’s who won’t email me directly but go behind my back to SRofChas.  They are fine examples for all.  I’d also like to WARN any of you that we are being intensely watched by these corporations and, if you are depending on them to do warranty work, like I was, you probably should not exercise your constitutional rights of free speech by posting your boat’s problems here.  It’s hard on sales, me thinks.  It may be better to just shut up and keep quiet so’s not to piss off anyone at the company….whatever company you must deal with. To the two SOB’s, I don’t give a damned if you print this and hand it to the general manager of Sea Ray of Charleston.  I won’t be going back there for so much as a drop of oil….STUFF IT! Larry….still a free American…I’ll fix my own damned boat.

Response:

Ya gotta love CORPORATE AMERICA, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two lurkers who I’ve never seen on rec.boats but who obviously read this newsgroup reported to Sea Ray of Charleston’s general manager that I was on the newsgroup slamming Sea Ray because I post the problems I have encountered with my new Sea Rayder F16XR2 to this newsgroup and rec.sport.jetski.  I found this out this morning when I took my Rayder in for warranty service. The general manager caught me at the front door, talking to the service manager on our way out to the parking lot to look at the fuel hose and leaky oil tank.  He informed me that if I were to continue to post to this newgroup my problems with my boat, seeing as how I did not buy the boat from Sea Ray of Charleston, that I could no longer bring my boat to his dealership for warranty service.  The service manager and I went on about our business looking at the problems and I left the boat. But, over the course of the next hour, eating away at me inside about someone trying to silence my freedom of speech, I made the correct decision.  I decided my constitutional rights of free speech were worth FAR MORE than Sea Ray of Charleston’s warranty service.  As a matter of fact, I’ve decided my constitutional rights of free speech are worth more than the whole damned Brunswick Corporation…Bayliner and all! I’d like to thank the two silent SOB’s who won’t email me directly but go behind my back to SRofChas.  They are fine examples for all.  I’d also like to WARN any of you that we are being intensely watched by these corporations and, if you are depending on them to do warranty work, like I was, you probably should not exercise your constitutional rights of free speech by posting your boat’s problems here.  It’s hard on sales, me thinks.  It may be better to just shut up and keep quiet so’s not to piss off anyone at the company….whatever company you must deal with. To the two SOB’s, I don’t give a damned if you print this and hand it to the general manager of Sea Ray of Charleston.  I won’t be going back there for so much as a drop of oil….STUFF IT! Larry….still a free American…I’ll fix my own damned boat.

– Harry Krause EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address – - – - – - – - – - "I promise to take good care of your cat."  - Schr*dinger

Response:

I won’t go back.  This guy has threatened me twice…once when I bought it and this morning.  I’ll fix the little stuff and pay another boat shop for the stuff I cannot do myself. Larry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seems to me that Sea Ray of Charleston is going to end up with the big headache over this, once you document what was said and send it up to Brunswick. You’ll probably get *great* service out them from now on…. — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                              -"Call me Fishmeal"-

Response:

Something like this isn’t necessarily Sea Ray’s attitude…if the general manager isn’t the dealership owner, it may not even be the owner’s attitude…right now all you know is that it’s one single individual’s attitude.  If I were you, I’d document everything–a copy of everything you’ve posted to the NG about your Sea Rayder, the name of the dealership general manager and the date of your conversation with him…EVERYTHING relating to this–and send it certified mail to SR’s Corp. HQ in Knoxville TN, with a copy to dealership owner (whom I’m assuming is not the gen. mgr, but his boss).

Peggy is correct, as I stated to someone else.  This had nothing to do with Sea Ray.  This had to do with this manager hearing, second-hand from 2 individuals he knows in Charleston who lurk here, and threatening me with no service at the local dealership.  Sea Ray wasn’t involved…noone.  Of course, I have no idea who this guy talked to at the dealership.  The service manager looked shocked. And FWIW, dealers–boat or automobile–make very little on the units they sell…service and warranty work are where the profits are…furthermore, happy service customrs turn into buying customers–unhappy ones don’t. So I suspect that the dealership owner will be VERY interested to find out that his general manager is driving customers away instead of trying to make them happy.

I’m told by Sea Ray they are paid quite handsomely to repair warranty defects.  I even went to the trouble of making sure my Preferred Customer Card went through the machine when I purchased stuff from the parts department.  While we’re on that subject, I was given a discount on a gallon of Mercury Superoil as per my Preferred Customer package. When I bought the Quicksilver oil filter to add to the boat, she told me I couldn’t have the Preferred Customer 10% discount because I didn’t buy the boat from SR of C.  When I have to worry about $5, I’ll get out of boating.  This change in my status, last week as it were, may have been already indicative of my doom at the dealership. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987

Peggy, we put a Porta Potti in the open cockpit of my Sea Rayder….HUGE laughs at the boat landing….hee hee…(c;

Response:

Thanks, Marcus.  Just for fun, I took a piece of marine 5/16" hose and the offending fuel filter fitting today and stuck the 5/16" hose on it.  I had to push hard to get it on, and had to pull VERY hard to get it off.  One clamp would have made it virtually impossible to pull off put up past the bulb and tightened down properly.  The 3/8" hose slides right off, and that’s why they used 2 hose clamps.  Someone MUST have seen this on the assembly line floor.  But, to stay out of trouble with their boss, perhaps, didn’t say anything or raise any questions.  I’m speculating the 3/8" hose is on most all their small craft and is used because that’s the fittings the gas tanks come with….wanna bet? Larry…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  He informed me that if I were to continue to post to this newgroup my problems with my boat, seeing as how I did not buy the boat from Sea Ray of Charleston, that I could no longer bring my boat to his dealership for warranty service. … But, over the course of the next hour, eating away at me inside about someone trying to silence my freedom of speech, I made the correct decision.   You made the correct decision. I saw your announcement as a matter of public education. You wanted other to know that a potentially unsafe condition existed, and that it could be corrected. Perhaps a recall may be in order. Imagine the publicity problem that would ensue if Sea Rayders were to start blowing up in large numbers because of this problem. Dealers would be implicated because of their passing shoddy product on to customers. You should tell SRoC that your message was intended as above. You should bring a copy of the post to verify this. You should word all posts of this lature in such a way that they can be taken as such, and not actionable libel. If your nose is clean and your intentions are pure, SRoC should be able to see your side of it. If they can’t, you are better off being served elsewhere. The only problem I see in your post is the matter of the 2 clamps being used as quasi-proof that Sea Ray was aware of the problem; it sounds like you are alleging willful negligence. Also, a smooth pipe with a single bulge accepts a hose very nicely and seals better than a multi-fluted hose barb. Properly sized hoses and properly sized clamps are essential with such a design, however. — —

Response:

"Corporate America".  My defective oil tank, a Mercury part not Sea Ray’s, and the side panel were ordered today by the dealer I bought the boat from who COULDN’T be any nicer.

I’m curious Larry, why didn’t you take the boat back to the purchasing dealer originally? Regards,                 Dave Brown                 Brown’s Marina

Response:

With all due respect, Larry (I have nothing at all against you), what the hell did you expect?  To tell you the truth, I have not paid much attention to anything you have said about service problems with your boat (though I thought it was supposed be superior than a PWC powered JB…sorry…just a little dig on ya. <g) But I who are you really pissed at?  Two lurkers that went "behind your back" and told someone about things you are saying in public?  This is a public forum.  Anything you say on this newsgroup might as well be on the evening news because anyone can read it.  If there is chance that saying something can get you in trouble with someone, you should think twice about saying it here. However I think your beef with Sea Ray of Charleston is legit.  You have a right to tell people that you aren’t satisfied.  And in fact, a smart business person will assume that a dissatisfied customer wil tell ten times as many people about his experience than one who is satisfied.   The GM oboviousy made a stupid move by confronting you and threatening you with discontinued service because he just got a lot more bad press. I assume I can trust you about who the discussion really went down – and based on that assumption, I wouldn’t give that dealership the time of day.  That GM may have a different version of the story. Anyway.  Back to my point.  Don’t assume that non-interneters will not find out what you have been saying.  If you make enough noise and talk enough trash, other people can still find out. On a secondary issue.  Please don’t recklessly about your "constitutional rights".  Sea Ray and Sea Ray of Charleston are not violating your rights.  The Constitution protects you from, in general, the government, not private persons or even entities.  The dealer had every right to say that continuing to make negative public remarks about them or their products could hurt your business relationship – they can’t necessarily void your warranty (unlees it says something like "void if vessel is modified or owner talks smack about us").   The first ammendement does not say "Sea Ray shall make no law…. abridging Larry’s right to rant and rave…" Just my thoughts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two lurkers who I’ve never seen on rec.boats but who obviously read this newsgroup reported to Sea Ray of Charleston’s general manager that I was on the newsgroup slamming Sea Ray because I post the problems I have encountered with my new Sea Rayder F16XR2 to this newsgroup and rec.sport.jetski.  I found this out this morning when I took my Rayder in for warranty service. The general manager caught me at the front door, talking to the service manager on our way out to the parking lot to look at the fuel hose and leaky oil tank.  He informed me that if I were to continue to post to this newgroup my problems with my boat, seeing as how I did not buy the boat from Sea Ray of Charleston, that I could no longer bring my boat to his dealership for warranty service.  The service manager and I went on about our business looking at the problems and I left the boat. But, over the course of the next hour, eating away at me inside about someone trying to silence my freedom of speech, I made the correct decision.  I decided my constitutional rights of free speech were worth FAR MORE than Sea Ray of Charleston’s warranty service.  As a matter of fact, I’ve decided my constitutional rights of free speech are worth more than the whole damned Brunswick Corporation…Bayliner and all! I’d like to thank the two silent SOB’s who won’t email me directly but go behind my back to SRofChas.  They are fine examples for all.  I’d also like to WARN any of you that we are being intensely watched by these corporations and, if you are depending on them to do warranty work, like I was, you probably should not exercise your constitutional rights of free speech by posting your boat’s problems here.  It’s hard on sales, me thinks.  It may be better to just shut up and keep quiet so’s not to piss off anyone at the company….whatever company you must deal with. To the two SOB’s, I don’t give a damned if you print this and hand it to the general manager of Sea Ray of Charleston.  I won’t be going back there for so much as a drop of oil….STUFF IT! Larry….still a free American…I’ll fix my own damned boat.

– Curtis "Fast Forward"

Response:

Ya gotta love CORPORATE AMERICA, eh?

In all fairness to Sea Ray, the company, Harry…They had NOTHING to do with this confrontation this morning, that I know of.  The general manager was representing his own dealer’s interest, but presented himself as a representative of the company.  My dealings with Sea Ray, the company, have been very well handled. Until I find out otherwise, Sea Ray, itself and Brunswick Corp had nothing to do with what was said to me by this local dealership, today.  Please don’t include anyone who was not involved, such as "Corporate America".  My defective oil tank, a Mercury part not Sea Ray’s, and the side panel were ordered today by the dealer I bought the boat from who COULDN’T be any nicer. If any of you need to talk to a good Regal dealer, who has a few Sea Rays left over, Dead Ahead Marine Products in Birmingham, AL, owned by Roger Reed at 205-991-2614 (fax 205-991-2694) is a fine dealership to deal with…(c; Sea Ray has also treated me with respect, even though I think the company has too many accountants buying parts and too few quality control inspectors asking questions and raising hell. Larry….Still lovin my Sea Ray!

Response:

…  He informed me that if I were to continue to post to this newgroup my problems with my boat, seeing as how I did not buy the boat from Sea Ray of Charleston, that I could no longer bring my boat to his dealership for warranty service. … But, over the course of the next hour, eating away at me inside about someone trying to silence my freedom of speech, I made the correct decision.  

You made the correct decision. I saw your announcement as a matter of public education. You wanted other to know that a potentially unsafe condition existed, and that it could be corrected. Perhaps a recall may be in order. Imagine the publicity problem that would ensue if Sea Rayders were to start blowing up in large numbers because of this problem. Dealers would be implicated because of their passing shoddy product on to customers. You should tell SRoC that your message was intended as above. You should bring a copy of the post to verify this. You should word all posts of this lature in such a way that they can be taken as such, and not actionable libel. If your nose is clean and your intentions are pure, SRoC should be able to see your side of it. If they can’t, you are better off being served elsewhere. The only problem I see in your post is the matter of the 2 clamps being used as quasi-proof that Sea Ray was aware of the problem; it sounds like you are alleging willful negligence. Also, a smooth pipe with a single bulge accepts a hose very nicely and seals better than a multi-fluted hose barb. Properly sized hoses and properly sized clamps are essential with such a design, however. — —

Response:

Seems to me that Sea Ray of Charleston is going to end up with the big headache over this, once you document what was said and send it up to Brunswick. You’ll probably get *great* service out them from now on…. — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

Response:

Maybe the guy GM had following Ralph Nader around will start following Larry around. Sometimes I wonder if approach matters. In the 40+ years I’ve been boating, I’ve had problems with boats and engines, sometimes serious and sometimes not. In each instance, I was able to get the problems resolved to my satisfaction by the dealer or manufacturer or both. I’ve had entire engines replaced at no cost to me and one I had an entire boat sans engine replaced at no cost to me. One of the things I do before accepting delivery on a new boat is to physically check ALL electrical, water, fuel and through-hull fittings to ensure the work has been properly done and that it hasn’t been damaged in some way. Obviously, there are things not so easy to check. But you should spend a few hours looking over a new boat purchase before you drive away with it. Seems to me that Sea Ray of Charleston is going to end up with the big headache over this, once you document what was said and send it up to Brunswick. You’ll probably get *great* service out them from now on…. — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

– Harry Krause EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address – - – - – - – - – - "Potty Emergency!  I have a Potty Emergency!" — Wakko Warner

Response:

Something like this isn’t necessarily Sea Ray’s attitude…if the general manager isn’t the dealership owner, it may not even be the owner’s attitude…right now all you know is that it’s one single individual’s attitude.  If I were you, I’d document everything–a copy of everything you’ve posted to the NG about your Sea Rayder, the name of the dealership general manager and the date of your conversation with him…EVERYTHING relating to this–and send it certified mail to SR’s Corp. HQ in Knoxville TN, with a copy to dealership owner (whom I’m assuming is not the gen. mgr, but his boss). And FWIW, dealers–boat or automobile–make very little on the units they sell…service and warranty work are where the profits are…furthermore, happy service customrs turn into buying customers–unhappy ones don’t. So I suspect that the dealership owner will be VERY interested to find out that his general manager is driving customers away instead of trying to make them happy. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two lurkers who I’ve never seen on rec.boats but who obviously read this newsgroup reported to Sea Ray of Charleston’s general manager that I was on the newsgroup slamming Sea Ray because I post the problems I have encountered with my new Sea Rayder F16XR2 to this newsgroup and rec.sport.jetski.  I found this out this morning when I took my Rayder in for warranty service. The general manager caught me at the front door, talking to the service manager on our way out to the parking lot to look at the fuel hose and leaky oil tank.  He informed me that if I were to continue to post to this newgroup my problems with my boat, seeing as how I did not buy the boat from Sea Ray of Charleston, that I could no longer bring my boat to his dealership for warranty service.  The service manager and I went on about our business looking at the problems and I left the boat. But, over the course of the next hour, eating away at me inside about someone trying to silence my freedom of speech, I made the correct decision.  I decided my constitutional rights of free speech were worth FAR MORE than Sea Ray of Charleston’s warranty service.  As a matter of fact, I’ve decided my constitutional rights of free speech are worth more than the whole damned Brunswick Corporation…Bayliner and all! I’d like to thank the two silent SOB’s who won’t email me directly but go behind my back to SRofChas.  They are fine examples for all.  I’d also like to WARN any of you that we are being intensely watched by these corporations and, if you are depending on them to do warranty work, like I was, you probably should not exercise your constitutional rights of free speech by posting your boat’s problems here.  It’s hard on sales, me thinks.  It may be better to just shut up and keep quiet so’s not to piss off anyone at the company….whatever company you must deal with. To the two SOB’s, I don’t give a damned if you print this and hand it to the general manager of Sea Ray of Charleston.  I won’t be going back there for so much as a drop of oil….STUFF IT! Larry….still a free American…I’ll fix my own damned boat.

Response:

Question:

If you have some background in recording purchases and sales (including short sales) of commodity futures for accounting and tax purposes, I would appreciate reading how you record them. A person usually deals with a broker and puts up a margin deposit for the purchase or short sale.  The deposit for the futures contract is small when compared to the price of the actual contract. Suppose you deposit $5,000 with your broker for a $20,000 futures contract and you later sell the contract for $30,000.  Ignoring commissions, your broker would give you back $15,000 – your $5,000 deposit plus your $10,000 profit. There are two basic ways you could record this: 1.  You record your purchase as $5,000, your sales revenue as $15,000 and your gross profit as $10,000; or 2.  You record the $5,000 deposit as a receivable from your broker, and the $20,000 as contract inventory and a payable to your broker.  When you make the sale, you would crdit sales for $30,000, debit $20,000 to the payable owing your broker, and debit $10,000 to the receivable owing from your broker.  You would also make another entry transferring $20,000 from your inventory to contract purchase costs. At this point, you would have a $15,000 receivable owing from your broker, contract sales of $30,000, a purchase cost of $20,000, and a gross profit of $10,000. The first way is easier.  What are your views? — Cheers, LLOYD LINDSAY – Chartered Accountant

Response:

SFAS#80 addresses the accounting for futures contracts.  There is a good example of such in Appendix B beginning Paragraph 17 of the Statement which also includes interim reporting, recognition of gains and losses, etc.

Response: