Question:

I asked the same thing.  "What is the outstanding bill so far"?  I was put on hold forever, and then the billing dept. said there was no bill compiled as of yet.  When I gave my donation, I asked if she wanted my "internet name" for Dan’s records and she said that everyone else was donating anonymously.  So, I followed suit.

I don’t like this way of doing it and it makes no sense that they are not making an audit trail.  I would like to see people let Dan know how much they’ve donated so that he can make sure that it was all properly credited to his account. Susan M Otis and Chester

Response:

accounted for on Dan’s bill as it stands.  It strikes me that Dan should receive and accounting from everyone who sent to the specialist so that he can make sure that it was appropriately applied to his account.

Absolutely! Dan, would you mind getting an itemized list of the donations received and posting it? Even if it’s just the ammounts, we can make sure everybody’s donation was included. — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

Absolutely! Dan, would you mind getting an itemized list of the donations received and posting it? Even if it’s just the ammounts, we can make sure everybody’s donation was included.

Victor – I think its better if everyone writes to Dan with their amounts. Otherwise, there may be lots of $20 donations for instance, and no one will know which one is theirs and how many there should be. The only reason I’m jazzed about it this time is that I didn’t like their accounting procedures with not using names for the donations.  They didn’t even take the name for the Visa card for goodness sake! Susan M Otis and Chester

Response:

Harriet Mahoney is currently at: VCA All Care Animal Referral Centre 18440 Amistad St Fountain Valley California 92708 Their phone number is 714 963 0909 Yowie

On the phone w/them right now…  I went ahead and doubled my donation. Harri needs all the help she can get!! —

Question:

"…there has been a tendency of late years to enlarge the responsibilities of auditors to an extent which, if persisted in, might render it dangerous for men of reputation and means to accept the duties." What have we learned since then? For the full article see: http://99.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AC/ACCOUNTANTS.htm

Response:

"…there has been a tendency of late years to enlarge the responsibilities of auditors to an extent which, if persisted in, might render it dangerous for men of reputation and means to accept the duties." What have we learned since then? For the full article see: http://99.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AC/ACCOUNTANTS.htm

Greg, Thank you very much. I will more than likely make very good use of this reference in defending a fellow CPA in current malpractice case. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Question:

Physically, since the thicker strings have more mass, the tension needs to be higher to tune them up to pitch. The relative bending also needs then to "more" in order to bend up more. One can see it on double-wound strings, too.

Yes, but until we determine whether bending the string the same distance on a thicker string tuned to higher tension will or will not change the tension more than doing the same to a thinner, looser string, I won’t be convinced in a mathy, formulaic sense. I expect its one of those nasty non-linear relationships intro texts tend to ignore. Perhaps a look at mechanical enginneering resources would be fruitful since they’d have to deal with tension in non-ideal strings whenever cables are used in strutcures, or strings/springs are used to provde tension in a device, and they wouldn’t always assume you can somply determine the tension by measuring freq. Random web searches have turned up nothing but frustration for me, since everyone in acoustics who’d put anything on the web seems to think the F = 1/2L sqrt(T/u) formula solves everything. Of course, measuring the characteristics of a few strings under force might help as well, but I don’t have the tools for that. In practice though, judging from my intution and experience, I’m in agreement with you and the others who’ve said you’ll have to bend farther. Although the same  bend on the a thicker string tuned lower seems to produce *more* pitch change, as bending the low E the same amount as bending a high E or B will create much more pitch change for the thicker string. Also, in reality, I would imagine the question varies from guitar to guitar and bridge to bridge, since I need to re-adjust my bridge whenever I switch gauges, *especially* if I keep the same tuning. That would have an effect on bending properties as well. I would like to check out Dave’s guitar album.

Yeah, that’s what I like to see! I’m a guitar player, too, from age 5 and have been in the music industry for a while. However, I’m more on the digital processing side of things.

I’m jealous, I wish I had started when I was 5. Oh well…     Dave —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)

Response:

Physically, since the thicker strings have more mass, the tension needs to be higher to tune them up to pitch. The relative bending also needs then to "more" in order to bend up more. One can see it on double-wound strings, too. Additionally, since if you look at the original strings position versus the beny position, you are actually making the string slightly longer (a hypotenuse on a triangle, albeit a small deflection), and thus the string is actually slightly longer from nut to fret than it was before, requiring (a very small) tension adjustment to compensate for the slight lengthening of the nut-to-fret length. I really like this mathematical response below by Dave. Nice job, Dave. My explanation is somewhat "down to earth", but it’s always refreshing to see someone who really digs in to the mathematical desription of the physics, too. I would like to check out Dave’s guitar album. I’m a guitar player, too, from age 5 and have been in the music industry for a while. However, I’m more on the digital processing side of things. Regards, Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric guitar, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination? Hmm. Need to keep in mind the basic formula F = 1/(2L) * Sqrt(T/u), where F is fundamental freq, L is length, T is tension and u is mass per unit length (ie gauge). I believe u can also be expressed as (M/L) where M is the total mass of the vibrating string. So when we bend the string, what we are changing is L and T. The new length of the string could be expressed: sqrt( (original L)^2 + (distance moved across neck)^2)) but I think it’s better to just see it as (L + dL). The tension also changes, and we can look at it as (T +dT). (dL = change in length, dT change in tension) So before we bend any strings, lets look at the two cases of having different gauge strings tuned to the same pitch on the same guitar: F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T1*L/M1) = F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T2*L/M2) = which implies T1/M1 = T2 / M2 now when we bend we have F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T1+dT1)*(L+dL)/M1)  ?=? F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T2+dT2)*(L+dL)/M2)  ?=? If there is a way to relate the dT’s (probably different in each) to our dL (which is the same in both cases) given the two different masses of the string, I think we could come up with the theoretical answer. Of course, the observation that the bridge (espically a floyd rose) or guitar itself could be bending in response to the greater tension of a heavier set of strings, and also the fact that guitar strings don’t act as ideal strings could change things more. Hmm, that’s about as close as I can get to a convincing scientific answer for now, but I’ve crossposted to couple groups which might also have the full answer. This all also assumes that both strings are either wound or both are not, since I don’t think wound and not-wound strings can be compared so easily. And perhaps it’d be better to look at the changes in length and tension as multiplications of scalars than adding a change quantity? Any takers?     Dave PS – And I recently recommened Rossing’s Science of Sound book on a different thread here and now just a few days later I find it doesn’t go as deeply as I need about string vibration. Grr. —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)

Response:

I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric guitar, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination?

Hmm. Need to keep in mind the basic formula F = 1/(2L) * Sqrt(T/u), where F is fundamental freq, L is length, T is tension and u is mass per unit length (ie gauge). I believe u can also be expressed as (M/L) where M is the total mass of the vibrating string. So when we bend the string, what we are changing is L and T. The new length of the string could be expressed: sqrt( (original L)^2 + (distance moved across neck)^2)) but I think it’s better to just see it as (L + dL). The tension also changes, and we can look at it as (T +dT). (dL = change in length, dT change in tension) So before we bend any strings, lets look at the two cases of having different gauge strings tuned to the same pitch on the same guitar: F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T1*L/M1) = F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T2*L/M2) = which implies T1/M1 = T2 / M2 now when we bend we have F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T1+dT1)*(L+dL)/M1)  ?=? F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T2+dT2)*(L+dL)/M2)  ?=? If there is a way to relate the dT’s (probably different in each) to our dL (which is the same in both cases) given the two different masses of the string, I think we could come up with the theoretical answer. Of course, the observation that the bridge (espically a floyd rose) or guitar itself could be bending in response to the greater tension of a heavier set of strings, and also the fact that guitar strings don’t act as ideal strings could change things more. Hmm, that’s about as close as I can get to a convincing scientific answer for now, but I’ve crossposted to couple groups which might also have the full answer. This all also assumes that both strings are either wound or both are not, since I don’t think wound and not-wound strings can be compared so easily. And perhaps it’d be better to look at the changes in length and tension as multiplications of scalars than adding a change quantity? Any takers?     Dave PS – And I recently recommened Rossing’s Science of Sound book on a different thread here and now just a few days later I find it doesn’t go as deeply as I need about string vibration. Grr. —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)

Response:

I was hoping you would ask that! When you bend, normally, you increase the tension of the string, so the pitch goes up, but at the same time, you are making the distance from the bridge to the fret longer, increasing the vibrating length of the string.  If the tension were created in such a way that it was constant, however, the tension would remain the same while the vibrating length got longer, lowering the pitch.

Ahh now I see. Clever. I bet that would be really hard to implement in reality though – you’d have to hang a weight or something on a pulley pulling on the string at the bridge, rather than fixing it in place so it could lengthen or not (more likely use a spring). However, I doubt you could both use enough force there to get proper pitchs, yet also make it easy to bend with a finger. Maybe you can though. Seems like it would require very stiff strings. Probbaly easier to build an electronic guitar-ish controller and hook it up to some neat synth though. And of course, in real life we just use the whammy bar. Maybe now you can answer the questions I raised in my other reply to this thread…     Dave —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)

Response:

I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination?

Response:

Yes, that would be true. CW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination?

Response:

Why is this?  I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard!  I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too.  As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far.  Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination?

Response:

Go back to a lighter gauge.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this?  I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard!  I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too.  As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far.  Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination?

Response:

Why is this?  I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard!  I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too.  As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far.  Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam

Two possible factors: 1.  I’ve heard it explained by a hack-physicist on this NG before that there’s something about a larger string which requires further bending.  I made it through high school physics, but didn’t do well enough to make sense of the explanation, so I don’t remember exactly what it was. 2.  If your guitar has a tremolo, then that’s most of your problem. On a guitar with a trem, bending one string pulls the trem down, loosening everything and requiring more string travel on a bend.  The thicker the string, the more tension, the more you pull the trem down, the farther you have to bend.  It’s a pain. Sparky

Response:

I have no tremelo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this?  I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard!  I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too.  As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far.  Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Two possible factors: 1.  I’ve heard it explained by a hack-physicist on this NG before that there’s something about a larger string which requires further bending.  I made it through high school physics, but didn’t do well enough to make sense of the explanation, so I don’t remember exactly what it was. 2.  If your guitar has a tremolo, then that’s most of your problem. On a guitar with a trem, bending one string pulls the trem down, loosening everything and requiring more string travel on a bend.  The thicker the string, the more tension, the more you pull the trem down, the farther you have to bend.  It’s a pain. Sparky

Response:

Then, your guitar, is like a bow and arrow, the guitar is bending.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no tremelo Why is this?  I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard!  I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too.  As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far.  Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Two possible factors: 1.  I’ve heard it explained by a hack-physicist on this NG before that there’s something about a larger string which requires further bending.  I made it through high school physics, but didn’t do well enough to make sense of the explanation, so I don’t remember exactly what it was. 2.  If your guitar has a tremolo, then that’s most of your problem. On a guitar with a trem, bending one string pulls the trem down, loosening everything and requiring more string travel on a bend.  The thicker the string, the more tension, the more you pull the trem down, the farther you have to bend.  It’s a pain. Sparky

Response:

Lots of good info from the other posters. My suggestion would be not jump 2 gauges, but instead go to 11’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this?  I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard!  I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too.  As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far.  Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination?

Response:

Then, your guitar, is like a bow and arrow, the guitar is bending.

What would be really weird would be playing a guitar where weights were used for tension; bending a string would make the pitch go down! —  << << << << << << << <<  << << << << << << << <<

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this?  I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard!  I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too.  As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far.  Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination?

i’m surprised by this. i was always told that heavier strings didn;t need to be bent as far to achieve the same pitch change. anyone else heard that?

Response:

i’m surprised by this. i was always told that heavier strings didn;t need to be bent as far to achieve the same pitch change. anyone else heard that?

It all depends on how much the string gives, and how much the guitar gives. If you’re talking about going from a solid G to a wound G, that’s another issue.  A wound G has much more elasticity than a solid G from a slightly lighter set, and has to be bent more to increase the pitch the same amount. —  << << << << << << << <<  << << << << << << << <<

Response:

I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change.  Is this true, or is it just my imagination

Seems true to me.  I have one guitar strung with 9s and another with 11s, and it seems like, even accounting for the tension difference, you have to bend the heavier strings farther to get the same pitch change. Ed.

Response:

What would be really weird would be playing a guitar where weights were used for tension; bending a string would make the pitch go down!

What do you mean – I fail to see a situation where bending would do anything but increase the tension in a string, thereby increasing the pitch?     Dave —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)

Response:

What would be really weird would be playing a guitar where weights were used for tension; bending a string would make the pitch go down! What do you mean – I fail to see a situation where bending would do anything but increase the tension in a string, thereby increasing the pitch?

I was hoping you would ask that! When you bend, normally, you increase the tension of the string, so the pitch goes up, but at the same time, you are making the distance from the bridge to the fret longer, increasing the vibrating length of the string.  If the tension were created in such a way that it was constant, however, the tension would remain the same while the vibrating length got longer, lowering the pitch. —  << << << << << << << <<  << << << << << << << <<

Response:

Question:

Not even I can turn down this price. Quicken has been available free for years (with systems or other promotions), but Simply is much more potent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ACCPAC Makes Small Business Accounting Simple and FREE PRESS CONTACTS 1 million U.S. businesses offered full-strength and industry proven accounting solution free of charge PLEASANTON, Calif., October 16, 2001

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I said in my previous post, this is BEGINNING to make sense (my viewpoint).  You are way ahead of me on this. However, I have been around long enough to remember when a person who is now a respected local stockbrokers went bankrupt as a "service bureau" provider. He had teamed up with a guy who later became an office supply vendor (and one of my clients for a time), bought what was then a large computer, and sold processing to the locals.  As far as I know, they did an OK job, both in terms of marketing and service, however the market changed and they couldn’t. I also had my own "experience" in the early 80s.  I got involved with a former radio shack guy in a deal involving a "Zenix" system (Radio Shack’s version of unix).  I needed a general ledger system for client accounting, and he wanted to resell excess capacity at retail.  He was to provide computer expertice and marketing.  I was to provide office space and money. At the "end of the day", he blew his terminal away with a 12 guage, and I found myself the sole owner of a system I did not know how to run. Let’s talk some more. Jim

## … and I also remember when it was shoved down our throats that if we didn’t accept the paperless office concept in the form of microfiche for all record retention, that we would be left behind in the race … and I also remember winding up and administering the Bankruptcy of some who did and others who were the first with the latest …  so always remember the tortoise and the hare … From one who knows Peter French Australia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

At the "end of the day", he blew his terminal away with a 12 guage, and I found myself the sole owner of a system I did not know how to run. Let’s talk some more. Jim

Great post!   And I know exactly what you mean.   How foolish it would be to conceptualize webserver-based accounting dialtone as a "capital investment" to sell excess capacity in a server-to-customer connection… The history of the last two decades proves it doesn’t matter how much money is spent on a central installation.  It isn’t the raw horsepower or even the quality of the application (Which have been crappy anyway, on big iron) There are many reasons users will come to webserver based accounting systems… the biggest reason is that nobody is designing LAN-based client-server systems anymore.  Webserver-Browser just works better and is better techonology. More webserver GLs will be installed on LANs than on public ASPs or ISPs..  come on guys get the picture!  It’s not even that clear to the market yet, that there will be ANY role for public GL dialtone. (It is clear to me, for one, but most will not agree …) The venture I propose, open to anybody who wishes to participate, was to pool our money, research time and other resources to get this technology under control and stop drifting helplessly in the currents. The basic picture I see is that powerful and energetic software companies like Great Plains, SAP, Oracle, and Microsoft are working overtime (both on technology and ideology) producing crossbreeds of their existing products and elements of XML, browser front ends, or whatever suits their fancy and protects their existing base. CPAs and accountants perform a serious role in the economy and we know our users needs and the needs of society.  It is pathetic to see them naively waiting for "the invisible hand" of the market to provide tomorrows’ software environment for CPAs.  We’ve come so far down this road that we are on the eve of losing our franchise entirely, as the orderly, manual assembly of financial statements is set to be replaced by a drill-down XML financial reporting envirnoment hosted by online brokers and computer companies. Look at the large number of mediocre FS writeup products, and the last 15 years evolution in the income tax prep. software market. We haven’t got time to repeat that mistake in internetworked accounting and e-commerce environment. I again call for members to buck up $50 or $100 and start funding some research, to identify the XML DTDs, electronic banking protocols, online commerce standards we want to use.  This is primarily an act of perception not an act of creation or of politically influencing other actors in the software market.   We should articulate the goals and objectives we wish to achieve, identify the questions that need answers, and each member should perform research under rigorous standards and deadlines or contribute in cash to pay for somebody to perform those tests. We need to quickly and effectively identify the software products and repositories of open source software code that can be picked up and used by our clients and staff to get the following, long denied functions that NONE of todays accounting software vendors is providing to us or our clients at prices below $50,000 * send invoices electronically to our customers * send electronic po’s to our suppliers * purchase items electronically and have them automatically    integrated into inventory * make an electronic payment without paying 5 bucks in fees, * import and export transactions in standard format usable    by other accounting software (don’t tell me about comma    delimited and other unreliable "placebo" technologies) * accessible remotely by off-site employees and service     providers like CPA firms * open software interface.  Now that there are 10 million people     who know VBA or other programming languages this is long     overdue.   All of these things should be available in shrinkwrap products below $500, and certainly will be available in the next two years.  But don’t expect them to come from MS, Intuit or other currently dominant software companies with a pattern of selling millions of copies with annual upgrades, closed and proprietary databases, standalone one-copy-per-customer business models. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to   be a new era, for sure.) Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA Since there’s only 5 or 10 CPAs in the country who understand or care about webserver based accounting services, why don’t we form a company, a business plan and establish a franchise?

Todd, As I said in my previous post, this is BEGINNING to make sense (my viewpoint).  You are way ahead of me on this. However, I have been around long enough to remember when a person who is now a respected local stockbrokers went bankrupt as a "service bureau" provider. He had teamed up with a guy who later became an office supply vendor (and one of my clients for a time), bought what was then a large computer, and sold processing to the locals.  As far as I know, they did an OK job, both in terms of marketing and service, however the market changed and they couldn’t. I also had my own "experience" in the early 80s.  I got involved with a former radio shack guy in a deal involving a "Zenix" system (Radio Shack’s version of unix).  I needed a general ledger system for client accounting, and he wanted to resell excess capacity at retail.  He was to provide computer expertice and marketing.  I was to provide office space and money. At the "end of the day", he blew his terminal away with a 12 guage, and I found myself the sole owner of a system I did not know how to run. Let’s talk some more. Jim

Response:

 (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to   be a new era, for sure.) Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA

Since there’s only 5 or 10 CPAs in the country who understand or care about webserver based accounting services, why don’t we form a company, a business plan and establish a franchise?   I am totally serious about this and ready to work full time, 80 hours a week on it if you and any other CPAs are interested in this.  There are numerous other highly visible and competent individuals on usenet and webforums. Why do I need or care about you other CPAs?  Because  * your opinion on this is a reality check for me,  * your talents and resources would increase the odds of success, and  * because working with others in standard ways is essential to succeed in internetworked accounting The business plan I have in mind, would be to leverage our visibility and names to start a company.  First we would discuss and agree on a single, clear message and strategy, then we would execute it.  Perhaps something along these lines: 1. design a business model which provides technology and knowledge to CPAs and other service providers in exchange for money (such as down payment plus recurring franchise fees).  It is going to take a lot of work to identify emerging standards for e-payments, XML DTDs for accounting, EDI interfaces, and other hard problems of interoperating with existing systems. 2. whatever our business model is, we should continually research and adjust our model to ensure the model is workable.  for example I described a company in #1 above which is basically a knowledge and standards clearing- house.  To be successful it would have to have hardheaded management, and the employees or partners would have to be highly productive. The business model would have to identify problems, people to solve them, deadlines, and success criteria, and pay the workers real money. 3. obviously the venture would have to design a website to present its idea, inform potential franchisees and win their enrollment, and yes, collect payments from them. The venture would also need a website as infrastructure for communication and collaboration among its members, for both the management and software technoloogy discussions. 4. I presume the venture would build, buy, or lease the powerful webserver-based accounting software that we all know is possible and just over the horizon.  I honestly believe that we might be able to build it ourselves, given the programming talent available in this country and our above-average ability to define the specs and priorities. If so, the venture might establish a network presence for development of GL Dialtone software, or deployment of the webserver-based GL itself, if it is licensed from an existing vendor. But even if we don’t write software we and our members might do very well as front ends, for one or more service providers like BizTone, Great Plains, IBM, or Oracle. The thing to do might be wait for somebody (Biztone, NetLedger, GPS, etc) to light up a competently run GL Dialtone server in town, and go sell it as an Agent, employee, franchisee or whatever.  THAT will be a real good niche for us, as relatively unskilled programmers without big capital needed for such a startup. Personally, I have been wishing that Great Plains or Solomon would wake up and roll out a strategy for this, just as SAP, Oracle etc. have done. All they need to do is change their thinking on licensing.  GP’s product is a GL Dialtone server right out of the box, almost.  I went out 4Q98 for bids and couldn’t get a website up with 10 users for less than $45,000 here, between the NT and Citrix and GP licenses.   80% of the capital costs was the licensing costs. Basically, that stopped it. Perhaps the venture would not lock ourselves into a single network or software infrastructure.   Why not organize as purely an industry standards body, or a trade union, to prevent monopolists in the banking, software and telecomms industries from stealing money from us? The question is, who shall make billions of dollars from the next generation of network-centric accounting software and services?  Software companies and telcos?  Or accountants?  Why shouldn’t we succeed in this?  One principle of business is that the party who owns the customer, usually comes out on top.  And no matter what the Telcos or ERP vendors’ wishes may be, CPAs and accounting software VARs own the clients right now. In my view the SME (Small/medium enterprise) is a reasonably attractive market: According to Computer Reseller News, Dec 7, 1998 * Account for 98 percent of businesses in the United States * Represent about 50 percent of the gross national product * Spend approximately $445 billion annually on IT products and services Big Opportunity * There are four resellers selling to every large business * There is one reseller selling to every three midsize businesses * There is one reseller selling to every 145 small businesses Big Employers * 7,500 businesses with 1,000+ employees * 163,100 businesses with 100-999 employees * 800,000 businesses with 20-99 employees * 9.2 million businesses with less than 20 employees Let’s move these longsuffering users out of their unconnected, single-user and LAN-based platforms. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

Sounds like a good idea to me. Myron Joy CPA       Joy & Associates P.C.       Phoenix Az Accountants and Information Technology Consultants. Developers of ClientLink E-Accounting Software. Visual AccountMate Business Partner. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to   be a new era, for sure.) Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA Since there’s only 5 or 10 CPAs in the country who understand or care about webserver based accounting services, why don’t we form a company, a business plan and establish a franchise?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes but that also leads you with the possibility that it can be accessed by anyone also. Todd Boyle wrote The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner. Shall we just wait for security to improve?  Keep writing paper checks, keypunching inventory into the computer? Shall we keep driving to the computer every day, in order to use it?  A large percentage of the cars on the road are people driving to offices and other information pursuits. There is been no compromise ever detected, in SSL-encoded data in transit across the web.  Servers themselves have not been so lucky, but I seem to note almost every bank in the country now operates a web site offering transaction execution as well as access to data. There are many indicators that the "security thing" is solved, for those companies able to put up something like $10,000 plus $5,000/ year for a proper firewall. Webserver based accounting is going to happen.  It will be running on reasonably secure web hosts.  Breakins will be no more of a problem for GL Dialtone providers than they are for other e-commerce websites, and probably much less of a problem due to the fact they will not be highly visible or advertised. My bet is that GL Dialtone will usually be deployed on private networks, that perform better than the internet as well as being more secure.  It isn’t the kind of thing that needs to be on the global internet….. It just needs to provide a capability for service providers to service the accounting system.  That is the real essence of it.  Settlements vendors will come and harvest the payment and collection data and follow instructions.  Suppliers will harvest the inventory data and replenish stock.  Customers will push their orders into the system, given half a chance. Accountants and bookkeepers will come in and service the general ledger. And owners will come in and harvest data for reports. All of these things could be designed as a class hierarchy. There is a great deal of similarity in the functions needed to control, direct, and utilize the service providers. (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to be a new era, for sure.) * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA

Response:

Yes but that also leads you with the possibility that it can be accessed by anyone also. Todd Boyle wrote The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner.

Shall we just wait for security to improve?  Keep writing paper checks, keypunching inventory into the computer? Shall we keep driving to the computer every day, in order to use it?  A large percentage of the cars on the road are people driving to offices and other information pursuits. There is been no compromise ever detected, in SSL-encoded data in transit across the web.  Servers themselves have not been so lucky, but I seem to note almost every bank in the country now operates a web site offering transaction execution as well as access to data.   There are many indicators that the "security thing" is solved, for those companies able to put up something like $10,000 plus $5,000/ year for a proper firewall.   Webserver based accounting is going to happen.  It will be running on reasonably secure web hosts.  Breakins will be no more of a problem for GL Dialtone providers than they are for other e-commerce websites, and probably much less of a problem due to the fact they will not be highly visible or advertised. My bet is that GL Dialtone will usually be deployed on private networks, that perform better than the internet as well as being more secure.  It isn’t the kind of thing that needs to be on the global internet….. It just needs to provide a capability for service providers to service the accounting system.  That is the real essence of it.  Settlements vendors will come and harvest the payment and collection data and follow instructions.  Suppliers will harvest the inventory data and replenish stock.  Customers will push their orders into the system, given half a chance. Accountants and bookkeepers will come in and service the general ledger. And owners will come in and harvest data for reports. All of these things could be designed as a class hierarchy. There is a great deal of similarity in the functions needed to control, direct, and utilize the service providers. (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to be a new era, for sure.) * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

Yes but that also leads you with the possibility that it can be accessed by anyone also. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

Question:

My cats hate the bathroom. However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard. My dogs love it when I shower, however. When I get out of the shower my 2 shelties love to rush in and lick my wet legs! — Debbie Cusick I plan to be a procrastinator some day if I ever get around to it. Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc

I have never gone to the bathroom alone for as long as I have had my cat….Toilet trips only, not showers…for some reason she has no inclination to see me naked. She is quite afraid of the flushy noise…but she is very well self- trained…as soon as she hears the toilet paper roll…she scampers

out!

Response:

You pet-o-phile! ;P Debby 310/209/150 My dogs love it when I shower, however. When I get out of the shower my 2 shelties love to rush in and lick my wet legs! — Debbie Cusick

– * * * * *  WEB PAGE NOW BACK ON-LINE * * * * * WEBSITE: http://debby.simplenet.com  ____          __    __                                               |      _____ |  |  |  | __    __                                     |  )  )/  __ |   |   \  / /    ”’                             |     )  ___/|  ) ||  ) | / /    (o o)                                                        /_/

Response:

However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in

my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard.

LOLOL.. my youngest cat likes to sleep up under my chin when i’m on the computer. Good thing I got the boob-shelf to hold her up…… Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard. LOLOL.. my youngest cat likes to sleep up under my chin when i’m on the computer. Good thing I got the boob-shelf to hold her up……

<ASSUME THERAPIST MODE And how do you think your dear cat will feel when she realizes her cherished napspot will be gradually but distinctly decreased over the next months? HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF HER? Humans.  They only think of themselves. ;^) — St Theresa of the Net/only one you at uwm/Goal: HS wardrobe/&Don in ‘99/all bases covered

Response:

My three felines HAVE to have that bathroom door open.  If I’m in there, they want to be with me, if DH is in there they just pound the door open and walk away.  When I’m on the computer they usually arrange themselves around me and nap.  Once in awhile Dorrie will bite my legs to get attention. Hazel Az

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My cats are weird, they want more attention when I’m in the bathroom than anywhere else in the house. ROFLMAO…OMG I thought my cats were the only weird ones!!! LOLOLOLOL  I have 4 cats.. I always have an audience when I’m showering or using the bathroom!!! My oldest cat thinks cuz I’m sitting on the Toilet it’s perfectly acceptable for her to nap in my lap…LOLOLOLOL Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

My Princess Yasmine (she’s a little tiny 4 lb Himalayan) jumps on my computer chair as soon as I get up in the am, because she knows that I log on first thing.  Then she sits in my lap while I read, and if I don’t pet her, she gets mad and BITES my hands really hard!  She’s a nasty little thing! Jae – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However they can’t get enough of me when I am on the computer. As soon as I log on my two younger cats want to jump in my lap, butt their heads against my arms and walk all over the keyboard.

Response:

Normally yes, but hers is changed everyday… Of course, this is a cat, who comes out to my computer and jumps on my lap… Then runs into the bedroom, and then comes back out and jumps in my lap… Then runs again for the bedroom… She’s telling me it’s "bedtime"…. And when I go in there, she’s taken over half my pillow… — Marie 220/192/140 For those who say it can’t be done… Are being passed by those doing it. NEWBIES… Check out low carb info at http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everyone’s post is just all too funny.  My cat is the same way.  Once you go in there, here she comes, having to go too…. I guess she wants everyone to be proud of what she has accomplished…  And if by chance you’re not in there when she has to go, she’ll scratch and scratch until you tell her you hear her, then she’ll come on out… In my experience, when they keep scratching until they get your attention ("What are you doin’ in there, digging to China?"), it really means, "Momma, please scoop, we don’t wanna step in the poop." or  "our litter is non-clumping, this ammonia needs dumping." —  "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

My kitty, BabyKat, (some petite Siamese mix) will only drink from the bathroom faucet. Whenever she sees me going into the restroom she chirrups and jumps into the sink and stares at me..if I don’t comply immediately by turning the faucet on to a thin stream, (can’t be a drip or too fast, must remember this always! lol) she will pull the drain stopper out of the sink and go hide it.   If I go into the shower first thing in the morning, without giving her the usual good morning petting and sweettalk, she will stand outside the curtain and talk to me.  As soon as the water is off she jumps in the shower to drink whatever water is left going down the drain.   She is a hoot! ^..^ <     meaouw

Pammers

Response:

LOL. — Debbie Cusick I plan to be a procrastinator some day if I ever get around to it. Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You pet-o-phile! ;P My dogs love it when I shower, however. When I get out of the shower my 2 shelties love to rush in and lick my wet legs! — Debbie Cusick

Response:

<ASSUME THERAPIST MODE And how do you think your dear cat will feel when she realizes her cherished napspot will be gradually but distinctly decreased over the next months? HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF HER? Humans.  They only think of themselves.

ROFLMAO… actually, they will still be "bountiful". I was a 38D at 125 lbs (my teenage nick-name was"Dolly") Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

My Princess Yasmine (she’s a little tiny 4 lb Himalayan) jumps on my computer

chair as soon as I get up in the am, because she knows that I log on first thing.  Then she sits in my lap while I read, and if I don’t pet her, she gets mad and BITES my hands really hard!  She’s a nasty little thing! Jae

My kitten, misyt, has an appointmnt to be "fixed"  this thursday. Guess what.. she went into her first heat this weekend.  LOLOLOL… she wants a boyfriend really bad.!!!! She’s either grooming her lovliness in anticipation of snagging a boyfirend.. or doing a feline" bar-top" shimmy dance and yowling her unhappiness.  The puppy loves it because she’s so desperate she lets daisey jump on her and chew her…LOLOL…she’s on my boobshelf as we speak…. Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

I was a 38D at 125 lbs (my teenage nick-name was"Dolly") Tamera

Funny, mine was too..but that was because my last name was Parton…kids all thought it ironic that I wore a trainerbra til I was 19 with a name like that LOL Pammers = ) — "You keep on getting what you’ve been getting when you keep on doing what you’ve been doing." http://www.azstarnet.com/~midian/pam/pam.html  Pam Patterson

Response:

my cat, Jane, (sorry, I just had tojump in here)  Loves ORIGINS GINGER SOUFFLE body creme…..she likes to lick the jar, and my legs or arms when I used it…I couldn’t get rid of her!!! I don’t use it anymore because the  S/O (b) said it smells like BBQ sauce…(Go figure)  …but Janey-girl jumps up on my vanity and still licks the side of the jar…     yeccch…no accounting for taste….. Deb "Every day is a good day."  Yun-Men

Response:

My dog likes to eat lipstick.  I have to keep my lipstick tubes above waist level otherwise she eats them! Debby 310/209/150 my cat, Jane, (sorry, I just had tojump in here)  Loves ORIGINS GINGER SOUFFLE body creme…..she likes to lick the jar, and my legs or arms when I used it…I couldn’t get rid of her!!! I don’t use it anymore because the  S/O (b) said it smells like BBQ sauce…(Go figure)  …but Janey-girl jumps up on my vanity and still licks the side of the jar… yeccch…no accounting for taste….. Deb "Every day is a good day."  Yun-Men

– * * * * *  WEB PAGE NOW BACK ON-LINE * * * * * WEBSITE: http://debby.simplenet.com  ____          __    __                                               |      _____ |  |  |  | __    __                                     |  )  )/  __ |   |   \  / /    ”’                             |     )  ___/|  ) ||  ) | / /    (o o)                                                        /_/

Response:

my cat , cookie , loves to drink out of th tub, too.especially now that the baby puts her dry food in her water dish about 50 times a day! karyn

Response:

Everyone’s post is just all too funny.  My cat is the same way.  Once you go in there, here she comes, having to go too…. I guess she wants everyone to be proud of what she has accomplished…  And if by chance you’re not in there when she has to go, she’ll scratch and scratch until you tell her you hear her, then she’ll come on out…

In my experience, when they keep scratching until they get your attention ("What are you doin’ in there, digging to China?"), it really means, "Momma, please scoop, we don’t wanna step in the poop." or  "our litter is non-clumping, this ammonia needs dumping." —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

Congratulations on your decision Gayle.  You and I are about the same with the same goal. And remember to drink your water…then you’ll find out that the cat will be your best bathroom buddy!  Well, make that in all probability your only bathroom buddy.  My cats are weird, they want more attention when I’m in the bathroom than anywhere else in the house.  So that’s why they like it better when I go more often.  And they are the only ones to see me weigh and measure and they haven’t blabbed my weight to anyone….yet. Good luck, Paula …only my cat was around and she didn’t get it…just looked at me  curiously

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -cats don’t give much feedback and the family is not any support…

Response:

My cats are weird, they want more attention when I’m in the bathroom than anywhere else in the house.

ROFLMAO…OMG I thought my cats were the only weird ones!!! LOLOLOLOL  I have 4 cats.. I always have an audience when I’m showering or using the bathroom!!! My oldest cat thinks cuz I’m sitting on the Toilet it’s perfectly acceptable for her to nap in my lap…LOLOLOLOL Tamera 237/182/140 "Do you have a point other than the one on top of your head?"

Response:

I have never gone to the bathroom alone for as long as I have had my cat….Toilet trips only, not showers…for some reason she has no inclination to see me naked. She is quite afraid of the flushy noise…but she is very well self- trained…as soon as she hears the toilet paper roll…she scampers out! 5′6" 312(52)-242(44)-160(38?)-work pants size ( Longing to be the woman I was, not the woman I could be! ) *1999* My Millenium Makeover In Progress Losing the weight is only step one. Just Me,  Lisa. "I’m not fat..I’m big boned!" -Eric Cartman- *SouthPark* PCOS the Silent Disease << http://www.pcosupport.org

Response:

Everyone’s post is just all too funny.  My cat is the same way.  Once you go in there, here she comes, having to go too…. I guess she wants everyone to be proud of what she has accomplished…  And if by chance you’re not in there when she has to go, she’ll scratch and scratch until you tell her you hear her, then she’ll come on out… — Marie 220/192/140 For those who say it can’t be done… Are being passed by those doing it. NEWBIES… Check out low carb info at http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never gone to the bathroom alone for as long as I have had my cat….Toilet trips only, not showers…for some reason she has no inclination to see me naked. She is quite afraid of the flushy noise…but she is very well self- trained…as soon as she hears the toilet paper roll…she scampers out! 5′6" 312(52)-242(44)-160(38?)-work pants size ( Longing to be the woman I was, not the woman I could be! ) *1999* My Millenium Makeover In Progress Losing the weight is only step one. Just Me,  Lisa. "I’m not fat..I’m big boned!" -Eric Cartman- *SouthPark* PCOS the Silent Disease << http://www.pcosupport.org

Response:

Gayle, I think success can be measured in steps.  You’ve already taken the first big one, you already are a success.  Since you don’t have a lot of outside support, stick with this group, they have helped me immensely! Good luck on day 4… Jayde

Response:

Welcome to our life.  I suspect that you will lose the Prednisone weight quite rapidly.  And I will tell you something else…  Your cat will LOVE your new WOE.  My cat never used to be beneath the dinner table like she has since we have been doing meat and veggies.  You will feel better after a while, after your body adjusts, and it will.  My liver loves my new WOL.  My arthritis is completely gone and I haven’t used my inhaler in two or three months (knock wood). — Val in Boise 168/135/Forever

Response:

Gayle,     Congratulations!  It sounds like you made a great start.  You will love this diet.  I think it is fairly easy to stay on.  I have been on it since Jan. and have lost 20 as of this morning,  I went shopping last Sat.  and the pants I was trying on were 2 sizes smaller!  I was very surprised and thrilled.  So of course I had to buy them.       I know it is very hard to stay on a diet when no one in your family is on it.  I’ve been there.  But with this diet, I think the food allowed is soooo good that most of the time my family eats it with me.  Explain to them too that you are doing this, not just to lose weight but for the health factor.  That helped with my husband.  He is now on this diet with me, which is WONDERFUL.        Good luck and let us know how it goes.  Oh by the way, there is also a Dr. Atkins message board.  I don’t have the address off hand, but I think I found it when looked up the diet on the internet on net find.              Jane

Response:

Go for it Gayle!  You poor thing, with that massive weight gain on the Prednisone.  Well your induction loss should be equally huge since it must be mainly water retention …. no one can put on 20 pounds of actual FAT in one week! Keep your carbs low, don’t worry about calories in fact if you even THINK you are hungry, eat some meat You will succeed at this!! Hi everyone, I am new to this group. I just started reading a couple days ago. I started the Atkins Diet on Tuesday…..

– Brenda Gray – Low Carb since 24 Jan 98 ~^

Question:

I couldn’t disagree more that one of these two systems will "wither and disappear."  Sage does not have a low end accounting system and is obviously gaining a tremendous market share with this move.  As you said, Peachtree is one of (if not the) top selling accounting softwares.  Sage would be foolish to do away with or BizWorks. JoFo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no obvious "symbiosis" between Peachtree and Business Works. I predict one or the other (probably Peachtree) will wither and disappear.  And the loyal customers, who specifically decided against Quickbooks and Business Works, will have no alternative.

Response:

Just received an announcement. — Paul MacFarlane American Riviera Software http://www.business-plaza.com remove *SPAMLESS* from reply address

Response:

There is no obvious "symbiosis" between Peachtree and Business Works. I predict one or the other (probably Peachtree) will wither and disappear.  And the loyal customers, who specifically decided against Quickbooks and Business Works, will have no alternative. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just received an announcement. — Paul MacFarlane American Riviera Software http://www.business-plaza.com remove *SPAMLESS* from reply address

Response:

Question:

People who passed for white were usually white. And they passed because white was where the great wealth and opportunity was and still is.         Yeah, back when being black was a bad thing, and not a protected classisfication with government mandates to be chosen for State employment, contracts or admission to College. I don’t think being black was ever a bad thing, but even today there’s an advantage to having white skin.  

        "A was never bad, but B was always better." ?           If being black wasn’t so bad, why did people try and pass as white?         If being black isn’t a bad thing, then why mandate racial preferences based on skin color?         Being black _was_ a bad thing.  It narrowed your prospects for employment, advancement and social contacts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Especially when one recalls the case of the Boston Firefighters who self identified themselves to be "black" (As in "Black Irish") so as to take advantage of the racial preferences for "blacks".  I know a young man who classifies himself as "Native American" – after all, he was born here.      If I thought there was money to be made, what color do I need to be? You are not talking about money so much as an education, which would require at least four years of posing as a member of a class of society that has become stigmatized as inferior.  I can see people passing for a day or a week for financial gain. A young student in Washington D.C. did a black like me in the South only five years ago and didn’t even last a week.         So?  You seem to be mistaking "culture" for "ethnicitiy." What’s the difference in your mind?

        Culture isn’t tied into the shape or color of your skin.  Ivana Schmidt is "Anglo-Cherokee Bund"  (Names have been changed for privacy, but she has a Slavic first name, a German Surname, and a "Native American" Grandfather.)  But trying to sort out her "culture" is fun – somedays "the thin veneer of urbane sophistication is insufficient to bely her bucollic origins."         And a lot of people mistake her for Chicana.  Kind of funny in it’s own right.  She’d go into a restraunt when working in So Cal and half the staff would split out the back "La Migra!" I do think of African-Americans as a culture, yes, and not an ethnicity.

        Are you trying to say then, that all African-Americans are the same?  Don’t you have any hope of them ever leaving the ghetto? What do I have to do to get the cash?  All I have to do, really, is put down on a form that I’m a "polliticaly correct minority" and then what? Try it. Chances are, though, you still won’t have trouble getting a cab. The police won’t stop your car in a white neighborhood for an official "black stop." And you could still probably browse a department store without store security checking out your every move.

        You seem willing to not get it.         I’m not worried about getting the cab, I’m worried about getting into college.  I’m worried about my nephew getting into college, denied a place because he’s white, while Colin Powell or Jesse Jackson’s kids get a pass because their from a deprived ethnic background.         And if we, as a nation, are going to be passing out governmetn largesse, such as jobs, contracts, and college admissions, based on the skin color of the applicant, then either we have some strong legal "guidelines" to determine who is a true minority, or we admit it’s a sham and are not suprised when people scam the system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves…         And when there is more than one possibility?  As Archie points out below – Tiger Woods is "multiple ethniced".  Does he have to pick one, or can he pick them all, or should he be able to weigh his answers so that he’s 25% African-American, 50% Thai, and 25% Caucasian? He can call himself "mixed race."         Sorry, but there is no classification recognized as "mixed race." he is going to have to be assigned to the proper pigeon hole for processing. This is just pure nonsense. On a college application you can put a check in a box, not identify yourself at all or fill in a blank.  It’s all based on the voluntary participation of the applicant.  The admissions directors don’t call the applicants in and rate them.

        Which is a loop hole that must be closed if we are going to be establishing racial preferences.  How can we establish patterns of discrimination if the discriminated against aren’t identified?         The real problem is that there are offices at all levels of Government tasked with finding racial discrimination.  And find it they do.  Regardless of the reality of the situation, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Program will find a company discriminatory in it’s hiring and promotion practices if the numbers don’t line up.         And one of the reasons that Hillsdale College disassociated itself from the "Free Federal Money for Students" was the inane demand from the feds that the College start keeping track of the racial makeup of it’s students.  All in the name of "diversity." You’re making a straw man argument.

        Only if you want to have race-neutral policies in regards to state employment, contracting or admission to state schools.  Up until the election, it was the policy of the State of Washington to give preferencial preference by race or gender.  Now that such discrimination has been banned, the race hustlers are looking for ways to ignore this law, and continue their racial discrimination.         So my calls for racial classification laws are moot, at least as far as the State of Washington goes. — pyotr filipivich, AKA Nickolai Petrovich.   "Do not argue with the forces of nature, for you are small, insignificant, and biodegradable."   And remember kids – homicide is the severest form of censure.  :-)

Response:

What advantage is that?  I am not aware that being white has provided any advantages to me or my relatives or friends.  Would you explain this? Not that many white folks get stopped for driving while black. True, but whites are raped, beaten, and burned to death by blacks just for being in the wrong neighborhoods,

The percentage of blacks who suffer such fates is probably higher. So your comment actually cuts my way, that it is advantageous to be white, than yours. WHy do you post comments supporting my view rather than your own? I guess it’s an IQ thing. Maybe your focus on that is fair, after all. and blacks are ten times more likely to commit crimes, so maybe the police are just doing their jobs and being proactive!

And, again, the victims are probably disproportionately black. I guess it’s hard for you to keep the topic in mind while you type at the same time? Probably about 99% of the Big Corp CEOs are white men. You think white men have 99% of the talent? And Jews dominate the media, academics, law, medicine, social science, Wall Street, and have all the wealth while only accounting for about 3% of the population.  

So again you post evidence supporting MY position, that it is advantageous to be white, and not black. Maybe I should just sit back and let you destroy your own position – you are doing just fine without me. Odd you stressed IQ as an important factor in justifying unequal distributions, given your apparent inability to follow simple logic. I’d call that proof that it is because they are smart.  So why do you deny that maybe CEOs  are both white and intelligent?

Certainly they are white and intelligent. And certainly they do not possess 99% of the talent in society. The disproportionate benefits suggest an advantage in being white – since obviously IQ scores do not explain why they have 99% of the top jobs. I guess I must spell out every simple logical step for you. Seems a bit unlikely. Only to you.

Funny. You actually stand by the view that white males have not only 99% of the talent, but now, apparently, 99% of high IQ. Post proof please. You explain the results as due to IQ scores, but, of course, this generation of blacks score higher on IQ tests than the whites did when Bob Dole was a child. They are about a standard deviation smarter, as a matter of fact. On average. So I wonder about whether the tests measure something inside – or something the society does to us. But they are still stupid in comparison to whites, and whites are still stupid in comparison to Jews. So what is your point?

That the disparity is likely the result of something the world does to us. Such that again the argument that there is disadvantage doled out to those born black, compared to those born white, is supported. By the way, I am a bit out of date, but 25 years ago or so Jews were only half a standard deviation ahead. You tell us that now they are a full standard deviation up. I guess your logic is that there is an immutable trait, IQ, which causes the discrepancies in life outcomes, as opposed to differential "treatment" of some sort. But with IQ scores wildly changing over time, as they do, how valid can your presumed "immutable" theory be? ANd why is it that a group with IQs a full standard deviation lower than that of blacks, white people who are old, old enough to have taken the Standford-Binet in 1921 say, are so rich? I thought you said such results accrued to those with HIGH IQs, not LOW IQs. YEt the blacks, with far higher IQs, do worse. The actual facts dispute your theory. You just can’t quite get ANYTHING right. I guess you would conclude you have an IQ, and that this immutable trait explains your error after error after error in this post. Personally, I think it has more to do with something mutable – blind bias. WHich do you think it is – immutable stupidity or blind bias?  If you can explain the Flynn effect you will be the first to do so.

No doubt another error. And again, a rather obvious one. Compare equals, that is people taking exams in the same decade. What do you think? You think the Whites taking the IQ tests in 1921 really were a standard deviation dumber than blacks today – or what? Again, if you have an answer for the Flynn effect you will go down in history.  So far, it has been an interesting phenomenon but does not provide any answers why blacks are and remain far behind everyone else.

But it does prove that IQ scores are not primarily the result of some inherent, immutable genetic quality. Because we all agree that evolution does not produce dramatic changes in a generation or two. So your logic – that results are due primarily to scores on IQ tests which are due primarily to immutable genetic traits – is false.’ Yet despite knowing the FACTS, apparently, you persisted in obvious logical error. I guess some of us do better on those tests than others, whatever the root cause. Boy that eugenics stuff you talked about sure acts fast, you know? George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.

Mark – I guess, by your measure, you should avoid children – for our common good. George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.

Response:

What advantage is that?  I am not aware that being white has provided any advantages to me or my relatives or friends.  Would you explain this? Not that many white folks get stopped for driving while black.

True, but whites are raped, beaten, and burned to death by blacks just for being in the wrong neighborhoods, and blacks are ten times more likely to commit crimes, so maybe the police are just doing their jobs and being proactive! Probably about 99% of the Big Corp CEOs are white men. You think white men have 99% of the talent?

And Jews dominate the media, academics, law, medicine, social science, Wall Street, and have all the wealth while only accounting for about 3% of the population.  I’d call that proof that it is because they are smart.  So why do you deny that maybe CEOs  are both white and intelligent? Seems a bit unlikely. Only to you. You explain the results as due to IQ scores, but, of course, this generation of blacks score higher on IQ tests than the whites did when Bob Dole was a child. They are about a standard deviation smarter, as a matter of fact. On average. So I wonder about whether the tests measure something inside – or something the society does to us.

But they are still stupid in comparison to whites, and whites are still stupid in comparison to Jews. So what is your point?  If you can explain the Flynn effect you will be the first to do so. Compare equals, that is people taking exams in the same decade. What do you think? You think the Whites taking the IQ tests in 1921 really were a standard deviation dumber than blacks today – or what?

Again, if you have an answer for the Flynn effect you will go down in history.  So far, it has been an interesting phenomenon but does not provide any answers why blacks are and remain far behind everyone else. Boy that eugenics stuff you talked about sure acts fast, you know? George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.

– The Eugenics Home Page: How to Breed a Better Human Being http://pw2.netcom.com/~nuenke/evolve.htm

Response:

I don’t think being black was ever a bad thing, but even today there’s an advantage to having white skin.   What advantage is that?  I am not aware that being white has provided any advantages to me or my relatives or friends.  Would you explain this?

Not that many white folks get stopped for driving while black. Probably about 99% of the Big Corp CEOs are white men. You think white men have 99% of the talent? Seems a bit unlikely. You explain the results as due to IQ scores, but, of course, this generation of blacks score higher on IQ tests than the whites did when Bob Dole was a child. They are about a standard deviation smarter, as a matter of fact. On average. So I wonder about whether the tests measure something inside – or something the society does to us. What do you think? You think the Whites taking the IQ tests in 1921 really were a standard deviation dumber than blacks today – or what? Boy that eugenics stuff you talked about sure acts fast, you know? George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.

Response:

I don’t think being black was ever a bad thing, but even today there’s an advantage to having white skin.  

What advantage is that?  I am not aware that being white has provided any advantages to me or my relatives or friends.  Would you explain this?  And if being white bestows on me certain financial rewards, then why are the Jews so much better off than the whites?  Jews are about nine times wealthier on average than whites, because they have an average IQ that is a standard deviation above whites, thanks to several thousand years of eugenics.  And whites are financially better off than blacks because they are a standard deviation above blacks in intelligence, on average.  This society values intelligence, and it rewards it.  If you left me with my intellect, but made me able to pass as black, and also threw in a much larger ‘Johnson’, I would jump at the chance.  My value would be enormous and jobs would come a begging, merely because I would now be in demand for BOTH my intelligence and for my minority status. — The Eugenics Home Page: How to Breed a Better Human Being http://pw2.netcom.com/~nuenke/evolve.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – People who passed for white were usually white. And they passed because white was where the great wealth and opportunity was and still is.         Yeah, back when being black was a bad thing, and not a protected classisfication with government mandates to be chosen for State employment, contracts or admission to College. I don’t think being black was ever a bad thing, but even today there’s an advantage to having white skin.         "A was never bad, but B was always better." ?         If being black wasn’t so bad, why did people try and pass as white?         If being black isn’t a bad thing, then why mandate racial preferences based on skin color?         Being black _was_ a bad thing.  It narrowed your prospects for employment, advancement and social contacts.

I don’t associate black with bad. I realize that others have and still do, but I think these people are logically wrong. But this is just semantics. I do think of African-Americans as a culture, yes, and not an ethnicity.         Are you trying to say then, that all African-Americans are the same?  

No, not all Germans are the same. Don’t you have any hope of them ever leaving the ghetto? Most African-Americans have already left the ghetto. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do I have to do to get the cash?  All I have to do, really, is put down on a form that I’m a "polliticaly correct minority" and then what? Try it. Chances are, though, you still won’t have trouble getting a cab. The police won’t stop your car in a white neighborhood for an official "black stop." And you could still probably browse a department store without store security checking out your every move.         You seem willing to not get it.         I’m not worried about getting the cab, I’m worried about getting into college.  I’m worried about my nephew getting into college, denied a place because he’s white, while Colin Powell or Jesse Jackson’s kids get a pass because their from a deprived ethnic background.

Colin Powell’s kids or Jesse Jackson’s kids won’t get accepted into college because they come from a deprived ethnic background. They get into college because they come from the middle-class, and nearly all middle-class kids can get into college. And if you have a problem with the fact that the wealthy and powerful get more opportuniy in America, than you must be a liberal like myself. I say everyone who wants to should be able to go to college.         And if we, as a nation, are going to be passing out governmetn largesse, such as jobs, contracts, and college admissions, based on the skin color of the applicant, then either we have some strong legal "guidelines" to determine who is a true minority, or we admit it’s a sham and are not suprised when people scam the system.

And if we hadn’t done anything to provide economic opporunity to our largest minority, we’d have even more problems. But I see you are taking my advice about arguing against AA on principle rather than on the far-fetched grounds that we will have to have racial testing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves…         And when there is more than one possibility?  As Archie points out below – Tiger Woods is "multiple ethniced".  Does he have to pick one, or can he pick them all, or should he be able to weigh his answers so that he’s 25% African-American, 50% Thai, and 25% Caucasian? He can call himself "mixed race."         Sorry, but there is no classification recognized as "mixed race." he is going to have to be assigned to the proper pigeon hole for processing. This is just pure nonsense. On a college application you can put a check in a box, not identify yourself at all or fill in a blank.  It’s all based on the voluntary participation of the applicant.  The admissions directors don’t call the applicants in and rate them.         Which is a loop hole that must be closed if we are going to be establishing racial preferences.  How can we establish patterns of discrimination if the discriminated against aren’t identified?

There’s no need. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         The real problem is that there are offices at all levels of Government tasked with finding racial discrimination.  And find it they do.  Regardless of the reality of the situation, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Program will find a company discriminatory in it’s hiring and promotion practices if the numbers don’t line up.         And one of the reasons that Hillsdale College disassociated itself from the "Free Federal Money for Students" was the inane demand from the feds that the College start keeping track of the racial makeup of it’s students.  All in the name of "diversity." You’re making a straw man argument.         Only if you want to have race-neutral policies in regards to state employment, contracting or admission to state schools.  Up until the election, it was the policy of the State of Washington to give preferencial preference by race or gender.  Now that such discrimination has been banned, the race hustlers are looking for ways to ignore this law, and continue their racial discrimination.

Good for them. Any university needs diversity. Colleges go out of their way to look for geographic diversity, why not racial diversity. Colleges probably look for Presidents of the Christian Coalition to shake things up as well.         So my calls for racial classification laws are moot, at least as far as the State of Washington goes.

Yes, they are moot. And rather silly, too. By the way, check out today’s Washington Post for a photo of an interracial couple. Gail pyotr filipivich, AKA Nickolai Petrovich. "Do not argue with the forces of nature, for you are small, insignificant, and biodegradable."   And remember kids – homicide is the severest form of censure.  :-)

– http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3053/index.html

Response:

People who passed for white were usually white. And they passed because white was where the great wealth and opportunity was and still is.         Yeah, back when being black was a bad thing, and not a protected classisfication with government mandates to be chosen for State employment, contracts or admission to College.

I don’t think being black was ever a bad thing, but even today there’s an advantage to having white skin.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         Especially when one recalls the case of the Boston Firefighters who self identified themselves to be "black" (As in "Black Irish") so as to take advantage of the racial preferences for "blacks".  I know a young man who classifies himself as "Native American" – after all, he was born here.         If I thought there was money to be made, what color do I need to be? You are not talking about money so much as an education, which would require at least four years of posing as a member of a class of society that has become stigmatized as inferior.  I can see people passing for a day or a week for financial gain. A young student in Washington D.C. did a black like me in the South only five years ago and didn’t even last a week.         So?  You seem to be mistaking "culture" for "ethnicitiy."

What’s the difference in your mind? I do think of African-Americans as a culture, yes, and not an ethnicity. What do I have to do to get the cash?  All I have to do, really, is put down on a form that I’m a "polliticaly correct minority" and then what?

Try it. Chances are, though, you still won’t have trouble getting a cab. The police won’t stop your car in a white neighborhood for an official "black stop." And you could still probably browse a department store without store security checking out your every move. Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves…         And when there is more than one possibility?  As Archie points out below – Tiger Woods is "multiple ethniced".  Does he have to pick one, or can he pick them all, or should he be able to weigh his answers so that he’s 25% African-American, 50% Thai, and 25% Caucasian? He can call himself "mixed race."         Sorry, but there is no classification recognized as "mixed race." he is going to have to be assigned to the proper pigeon hole for processing.

This is just pure nonsense. On a college application you can put a check in a box, not identify yourself at all or fill in a blank.  It’s all based on the voluntary participation of the applicant.  The admissions directors don’t call the applicants in and rate them. You’re making a straw man argument. Gail — http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3053/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I’m going to have to pig a back on Archie’s response, as Gail’s words of ‘wisdom’ didn’t make the first cut…. Author:    Gail Weasel    To which I respond that apparently, Ward doesn’t object to racial quotas and preferences, as long as the Correct Race is benefiting from the preferential treatment.    With this in mind, it might be useful to establish some legal definition of racial classification, purely for purposes of racially based admission policies at state funded institutions mind you, that would make it possible to know when a person is protected racial minority, and when they are attempting to scam the system. How many white people would pretend to be black, or how many men would dress up as women for four years to get a college degree? More than you might think. So, I think two and there’s maybe 4 or 5? For this we throw out a program that is supported by most corporations, public institutions and women and minorities? I think you should stick to either arguing against AA out of principle or because it stigmatizes people.         Considering the number of people who attempted to pass for white back when being black was a detriment to social and career advancement, quite a few. People who passed for white were usually white. And they passed because white was where the great wealth and opportunity was and still is.

        Yeah, back when being black was a bad thing, and not a protected classisfication with government mandates to be chosen for State employment, contracts or admission to College.         Especially when one recalls the case of the Boston Firefighters who self identified themselves to be "black" (As in "Black Irish") so as to take advantage of the racial preferences for "blacks".  I know a young man who classifies himself as "Native American" – after all, he was born here.         If I thought there was money to be made, what color do I need to be? You are not talking about money so much as an education, which would require at least four years of posing as a member of a class of society that has become stigmatized as inferior.  I can see people passing for a day or a week for financial gain. A young student in Washington D.C. did a black like me in the South only five years ago and didn’t even last a week.

        So?  You seem to be mistaking "culture" for "ethnicitiy." What do I have to do to get the cash?  All I have to do, really, is put down on a form that I’m a "polliticaly correct minority" and then what? Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves…         And when there is more than one possibility?  As Archie points out below – Tiger Woods is "multiple ethniced".  Does he have to pick one, or can he pick them all, or should he be able to weigh his answers so that he’s 25% African-American, 50% Thai, and 25% Caucasian? He can call himself "mixed race."

        Sorry, but there is no classification recognized as "mixed race." he is going to have to be assigned to the proper pigeon hole for processing. Here’s my point–and I do have one. A famous professor at Harvard asks his overwhelmingly majority white students whether there is racial equality in America. They overwhelmingly say yes. He then asks them if God came to them one night and told them he would make everything in their life the same, the same schools, the same books, the same class, the same home, except they would have black skin, what would the fair annual compensation be for the switch? The lowest compensation is a million a year. I would imagine if they were to become women, it would be a lot more!

        So?  This demonstrates what I’ve beleived for near on twenty plus years – the numnuls who go to Harvard place more weight on race than ordnianry folk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         If racial classification is going to be so crucial for government largese, standard definitons will be needed, as well as a classification of which racial mixtures are more oppressed than others. We’ve been doing AA for thirty years now without resortying to such nonsense. I’m beginning to think children born today won’t even need AA, and if we ever get to the point where massive numbers of white claim to be black, why, I think that would be just great and AA can be gone forever. OK, what about the "Tiger Woods" question?   Mr Woods is only 25% black, the rest is composed of various other ethnicities. He’s a one-man melting pot. I think he considers himself mixed race. I have a number of friends who consider themselves mixed. They are very happy to be from both American worlds, except they don’t like being asked all the time: "What are you?"

        But that is the _essence_ of how AA is _Practiced_.  Not "what are your qualifications" but "what race are you?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forgetting for a moment that he’s a millionairre, supposing he wanted to apply for admission to a top-level university, under a program which had set-aside a certain number of new admissions for "disadvantaged" minorities.  Could he apply for one of those seats by "identifying himself" as black?  Should he? It’s up to him.         IF I change my name to Gomez, am I "Hispanic"? Spanish surnamed. Why not try it for a few weeks and see what kind of reaction you get?         Does a person by the name of Juan Carlos count as Hispanic?  If his last name is "Bourbon" and he’s the King of Spain?  Would Andres count as Hispanic or White? (He was an acquantance when I was in High School in Spain.) There are some Hispanics who are white, and there are some who self-identify as black. I think for AA purposes for college, if your friend wanted to be counted as a minority, he could call himself Hispanic or Spanish-surnamed. Race has nothing to do with it.

        Sorry, Andres was Spanish.  Born and raise in Franco’s Spain. Which makes him "white" for AA purposes – he’s one of those Europeans you know.         Of course, the LA School district was onto something (or on something) when they declared a Jewish family Hispanic because they’d come from Mexico, after denying them the option to call themselves Sephardim (Jews from Southern Europe, as opposed to the Askanazim, which are what most people in this country think of as Jews.)         And so it goes.         The reason for this falderol is that if we are going to be having racial quotas and set asides, we are going to need legal defintions and standards to determine who is qualified. Why worry about marginal issues?

        If not now, when? — pyotr filipivich, AKA Nickolai Petrovich.   "Do not argue with the forces of nature, for you are small, insignificant, and biodegradable."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Author:    Gail Weasel      To which I respond that apparently, Ward doesn’t object to racial quotas and preferences, as long as the Correct Race is benefiting from the preferential treatment.      With this in mind, it might be useful to establish some legal definition of racial classification, purely for purposes of racially based admission policies at state funded institutions mind you, that would make it possible to know when a person is protected racial minority, and when they are attempting to scam the system. How many white people would pretend to be black, or how many men would dress up as women for four years to get a college degree?

More than you might think. Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves…

OK, what about the "Tiger Woods" question?   Mr Woods is only 25% black, the rest is composed of various other ethnicities. He’s a one-man melting pot.   Forgetting for a moment that he’s a millionairre, supposing he wanted to apply for admission to a top-level university, under a program which had set-aside a certain number of new admissions for "disadvantaged" minorities.  Could he apply for one of those seats by "identifying himself" as black?  Should he?  I am sure that there will be some resistance to the ideal of racial classification laws, but that can only be from people who lack the sort of progressive thinking that is required to bring about a race-free society.  But it will be obvious that there will be need to be some legal means of determining when a person descended from a protected minority ancestors is no long a member of the protected minority.      One difficulty that I see will be the need to determine whether a person descended from a protected minority on their mother’s side is more or less oppressed than one who traces their lineage from their father’s side. Needless to say, there will be some determination of possible synergistic effects, such as the person who’s mother’s people were Native American and whose father is of African-American origins.      And last but not least, there will be the need to determine if a person of color, but a recent immigrant, is more or less oppressed than a native born person of color, and thus deserving of inclusion as an oppressed minority.

An interesting question which was recently addressed by actor Yaphet Kotto, a *first-generation* American, who happens to be black.  His views on this matter may surprise some folks.   Thank you , and good night.

And to you, too. pyotr . — pyotr filipivich, AKA Nickolai Petrovich. "Do not argue with the forces of nature, for you are small, insignificant, and biodegradable."

"The road to tyranny, we must never forget, begins with the destruction of the truth." — Bill Clinton, Oct. 15, 1995 at the University of Connecticut "Any effort, policy or program that has as a prerequisite the acceptance of the notion that blacks are inferior is a non-starter with me.  I do not believe that kneeling is a position of strength. Nor do I believe that begging is an effective tactic.  I am confident that the individual approach, not the group approach, is the better, more acceptable, more supportable and less dangerous one" –Justice Clarence Thomas,  7/29/98 "Despite all the opposition and the apparent dirty tricks, however, the people of California approved Proposition 209 by a margin of 54 percent.  I don’t live in California.  But I was glad.  I have supported the intent of initiatives like 209 for some time because I happen to believe that shedding special preferences on account of my blackness is the next logical step in the evolution of improved American race relations. I believe it’s a step that must be taken in order to make black people – and brown people and women – fully vested citizens destined to stand or fall solely on their own merit. " –Ken Hamblin, November 1996

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Author:    Gail Weasel     Author:    Gail Weasel      To which I respond that apparently, Ward doesn’t object to racial quotas and preferences, as long as the Correct Race is benefiting from the preferential treatment.      With this in mind, it might be useful to establish some legal definition of racial classification, purely for purposes of racially based admission policies at state funded institutions mind you, that would make it possible to know when a person is protected racial minority, and when they are attempting to scam the system. How many white people would pretend to be black, or how many men would dress up as women for four years to get a college degree? More than you might think. I say two. Do you think three or four?

Oh, I’d say more like five or six–thousand.   Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves… OK, what about the "Tiger Woods" question?   Mr Woods is only 25% black, the rest is composed of various other ethnicities. He’s a one-man melting pot. Forgetting for a moment that he’s a millionairre, supposing he wanted to apply for admission to a top-level university, under a program which had set-aside a certain number of new admissions for "disadvantaged" minorities.  Could he apply for one of those seats by "identifying himself" as black?  Should he? Who cares?

Anyone who wishes to have a *serious* discussion about AA, in which you accept that today, this is no longer just in black and white (no pun intended), but several shades of grey exist in-between. So, did you wish to have a serious discussion, or merely trot out some tired, dated, facile talking points? "Any effort, policy or program that has as a prerequisite the acceptance of the notion that blacks are inferior is a non-starter with me.  I do not believe that kneeling is a position of strength. Nor do I believe that begging is an effective tactic.  I am confident that the individual approach, not the group approach, is the better, more acceptable, more supportable and less dangerous one" –Justice Clarence Thomas,  7/29/98 "What’s popular isn’t always right.  You say polls are against this.   Polls measure changing feelings, not steadfast principle.  Polls would have rejected the Ten Commandments.  Polls would have embraced slavery and ridiculed women’s rights…. The point is not whether the President can prevail, but whether truth can prevail." –Rep. J.C. Watts [R-OK], House Impeachment Debate, 12/19/98

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Author:    Gail Weasel      To which I respond that apparently, Ward doesn’t object to racial quotas and preferences, as long as the Correct Race is benefiting from the preferential treatment.      With this in mind, it might be useful to establish some legal definition of racial classification, purely for purposes of racially based admission policies at state funded institutions mind you, that would make it possible to know when a person is protected racial minority, and when they are attempting to scam the system. How many white people would pretend to be black, or how many men would dress up as women for four years to get a college degree? More than you might think.

I say two. Do you think three or four? Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves… OK, what about the "Tiger Woods" question?   Mr Woods is only 25% black, the rest is composed of various other ethnicities. He’s a one-man melting pot. Forgetting for a moment that he’s a millionairre, supposing he wanted to apply for admission to a top-level university, under a program which had set-aside a certain number of new admissions for "disadvantaged" minorities.  Could he apply for one of those seats by "identifying himself" as black?  Should he?

Who cares? — http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3053/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I’m going to have to pig a back on Archie’s response, as Gail’s words of ‘wisdom’ didn’t make the first cut…. Author:    Gail Weasel    To which I respond that apparently, Ward doesn’t object to racial quotas and preferences, as long as the Correct Race is benefiting from the preferential treatment.    With this in mind, it might be useful to establish some legal definition of racial classification, purely for purposes of racially based admission policies at state funded institutions mind you, that would make it possible to know when a person is protected racial minority, and when they are attempting to scam the system. How many white people would pretend to be black, or how many men would dress up as women for four years to get a college degree? More than you might think.

So, I think two and there’s maybe 4 or 5? For this we throw out a program that is supported by most corporations, public institutions and women and minorities? I think you should stick to either arguing against AA out of principle or because it stigmatizes people.         Considering the number of people who attempted to pass for white back when being black was a detriment to social and career advancement, quite a few.

People who passed for white were usually white. And they passed because white was where the great wealth and opportunity was and still is.         Especially when one recalls the case of the Boston Firefighters who self identified themselves to be "black" (As in "Black Irish") so as to take advantage of the racial preferences for "blacks".  I know a young man who classifies himself as "Native American" – after all, he was born here.         If I thought there was money to be made, what color do I need to be?

You are not talking about money so much as an education, which would require at least four years of posing as a member of a class of society that has become stigmatized as inferior.  I can see people passing for a day or a week for financial gain. A young student in Washington D.C. did a black like me in the South only five years ago and didn’t even last a week. Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves…         And when there is more than one possibility?  As Archie points out below – Tiger Woods is "multiple ethniced".  Does he have to pick one, or can he pick them all, or should he be able to weigh his answers so that he’s 25% African-American, 50% Thai, and 25% Caucasian?

He can call himself "mixed race." Here’s my point–and I do have one. A famous professor at Harvard asks his overwhelmingly majority white students whether there is racial equality in America. They overwhelmingly say yes. He then asks them if God came to them one night and told them he would make everything in their life the same, the same schools, the same books, the same class, the same home, except they would have black skin, what would the fair annual compensation be for the switch? The lowest compensation is a million a year. I would imagine if they were to become women, it would be a lot more!         If racial classification is going to be so crucial for governmetn largese, standard definitons will be needed, as well as a classification of which racial mixtures are more oppressed than others.

We’ve been doing AA for thirty years now without resortying to such nonsense. I’m beginning to think children born today won’t even need AA, and if we ever get to the point where massive numbers of white claim to be black, why, I think that would be just great and AA can be gone forever. OK, what about the "Tiger Woods" question?   Mr Woods is only 25% black, the rest is composed of various other ethnicities. He’s a one-man melting pot.

I think he considers himself mixed race. I have a number of friends who consider themselves mixed. They are very happy to be from both American worlds, except they don’t like being asked all the time: "What are you?" Forgetting for a moment that he’s a millionairre, supposing he wanted to apply for admission to a top-level university, under a program which had set-aside a certain number of new admissions for "disadvantaged" minorities.  Could he apply for one of those seats by "identifying himself" as black?  Should he?

It’s up to him.         IF I change my name to Gomez, am I "Hispanic"?

Spanish surnamed. Why not try it for a few weeks and see what kind of reaction you get?         Does a person by the name of Juan Carlos count as Hispanic?  If his last name is "Bourbon" and he’s the King of Spain?  Would Andres count as Hispanic or White? (He was an acquantance when I was in High School in Spain.)

There are some Hispanics who are white, and there are some who self-identify as black. I think for AA purposes for college, if your friend wanted to be counted as a minority, he could call himself Hispanic or Spanish-surnamed. Race has nothing to do with it.         Of course, the LA School district was onto something (or on something) when they declared a Jewish family Hispanic because they’d come from Mexico, after denying them the option to call themselves Sephardim (Jews from Southern Europe, as opposed to the Askanazim, which are what most people in this country think of as Jews.)         And so it goes.         The reason for this falderol is that if we are going to be having racial quotas and set asides, we are going to need legal defintions and standards to determine who is qualified.

Why worry about marginal issues? — pyotr filipivich, AKA Nickolai Petrovich. "Do not argue with the forces of nature, for you are small, insignificant, and biodegradable."

– http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3053/index.html

Response:

        I’m going to have to pig a back on Archie’s response, as Gail’s words of ‘wisdom’ didn’t make the first cut…. Author:    Gail Weasel    To which I respond that apparently, Ward doesn’t object to racial quotas and preferences, as long as the Correct Race is benefiting from the preferential treatment.    With this in mind, it might be useful to establish some legal definition of racial classification, purely for purposes of racially based admission policies at state funded institutions mind you, that would make it possible to know when a person is protected racial minority, and when they are attempting to scam the system. How many white people would pretend to be black, or how many men would dress up as women for four years to get a college degree? More than you might think.

        Considering the number of people who attempted to pass for white back when being black was a detriment to social and career advancement, quite a few.         Especially when one recalls the case of the Boston Firefighters who self identified themselves to be "black" (As in "Black Irish") so as to take advantage of the racial preferences for "blacks".  I know a young man who classifies himself as "Native American" – after all, he was born here.         If I thought there was money to be made, what color do I need to be? Why make it so complicated? Just ask people how they identify themselves…

        And when there is more than one possibility?  As Archie points out below – Tiger Woods is "multiple ethniced".  Does he have to pick one, or can he pick them all, or should he be able to weigh his answers so that he’s 25% African-American, 50% Thai, and 25% Caucasian?         If racial classification is going to be so crucial for governmetn largese, standard definitons will be needed, as well as a classification of which racial mixtures are more oppressed than others. OK, what about the "Tiger Woods" question?   Mr Woods is only 25% black, the rest is composed of various other ethnicities. He’s a one-man melting pot.   Forgetting for a moment that he’s a millionairre, supposing he wanted to apply for admission to a top-level university, under a program which had set-aside a certain number of new admissions for "disadvantaged" minorities.  Could he apply for one of those seats by "identifying himself" as black?  Should he?

        IF I change my name to Gomez, am I "Hispanic"?         Does a person by the name of Juan Carlos count as Hispanic?  If his last name is "Bourbon" and he’s the King of Spain?  Would Andres count as Hispanic or White? (He was an acquantance when I was in High School in Spain.)         Of course, the LA School district was onto something (or on something) when they declared a Jewish family Hispanic because they’d come from Mexico, after denying them the option to call themselves Sephardim (Jews from Southern Europe, as opposed to the Askanazim, which are what most people in this country think of as Jews.)         And so it goes.         The reason for this falderol is that if we are going to be having racial quotas and set asides, we are going to need legal defintions and standards to determine who is qualified. — pyotr filipivich, AKA Nickolai Petrovich.   "Do not argue with the forces of nature, for you are small, insignificant, and biodegradable."

Response:

Question:

Thinking about purchasing QBP for an online consulting business. Not an accountant, but have some experience with bookkeeping etc. Questions about QBP? 1.  Can new account data be entered/started from a delimited file? 2.  Maximum number of accounts that can be stored? 3.  Where, online (Intuit is impossible to reach), to get more info about the software? 4.  Possible to email account billings and/or messages directly out of QBP? Any other suggestions for easy to use accounting software? Thank you for your help. Alan

Response:

Vern Thanks again for your reply. I am assuming that QBP has a db file, that it works with, that could have 14500 max accounts (records) in it. So, when an account record becomes inactive, can a the db record be moved from the QBP db file and put in another file, with up to 14500 account records, from which the record could be moved back to the active QBP records file at a later date? I hope this makes sense, I dont know how else to describe it. Also, I think what Im trying to do is to set up a "poor mans" personalized (high volume, I hope) e-commerce consulting business that operates from a web page on a dial-up ISP server. Any recommendations? Alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–Original Message—– To: Vernon Paige I cant imagine more than 14,500 active files, but it could happen. Would it be possible to archive files to remote files that could be merged back into the active QBP database at a later time? What other similar accounting program, like QBP but more "robust", is available? Although, it sounds like QBP is at least a good starter program, and, possibly files can be exported to a delimited file for use in a some higher capacity program (if it will accept DFs), at a later time, if necessary? I think I may be confused.  If you mean "open" files, QB can only open one file at a time.  There’s no limit on the number of files on your system. Not sure what you mean by "archive files to remote files", or the "active QBP database". Similar to QBP in what way(s), and more robust in what way(s)? QB works very well for me and many of my clients, but of course it doesn’t meet everyone’s needs.  I don’t expect $200 software to have the same features as $20,000 or $200,000 software, but I think QB is excellent value. Must know your needs before I could suggest alternatives. You may want to look at the new networkable version of QB. I believe it’s called QBP 6.0, but it’s really a new and separate program.  I understand that Intuit is now promoting QB6 and taking orders for delivery in July. Regards,    Vern Paige

Response:

Thank you for your reply. I cant imagine more than 14,500 active files, but it could happen. Would it be possible to archive files to remote files that could be merged back into the active QBP database at a later time? What other similar accounting program, like QBP but more "robust", is available? Although, it sounds like QBP is at least a good starter program, and, possibly files can be exported to a delimited file for use in a some higher capacity program (if it will accept DFs), at a later time, if necessary? Thanks again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1.  Can new account data be entered/started from a delimited file? 2.  Maximum number of accounts that can be stored? 3.  Where, online (Intuit is impossible to reach), to get more info about the software? 4.  Possible to email account billings and/or messages directly out of QBP? 1. QuickBooks can import data in a very specific delimited format.  Some people have trouble with this, others have no problems.  Simplest way to get the format right is to export sample data from a sample file and examine the export file. 2. Some limits in version 4.0 were as follows:    Chart of accounts – 10,000    Inventory and other items – 14,500    Customers, vendors, employees, "other names" –            10,000 each, maximum 14,500 all combined    Memorized (recurring, or templates) transactions –            14,500    Memorized (customized) reports – 14,500    Other lists (tax codes, customer types, etc.) – 10,000 each    Transactions – 2 billion    Some of these limits remain unchanged in version 5.0, a few have been increased.  Sorry, I don’t have the data handy for version 5.0. 3. http://www.intuit.com    Or post queries at alt.accounting or biz.comp.accounting.    What else did you want to know?    Get a free (except maybe the shipping cost) fully-functional demo version on CD from Intuit and try it. Except for some reported problems faxing from the demo, it is fully functional for 25 uses (i.e. open the program 25 times). 4. Can’t email directly, but you can print to a file on disk and email the file.  Output will be pure ASCII and not very pretty, but will contain all the data.

Response:

Question:

This might be a long-shot, but… Several weeks ago I was strolling through a Barnes & Noble bookshop in  the Dallas area and happened onto a book which focused on establishing Fee-Based compensation for advertising agencies. I do not recall the exact title of the book (a problem), nor the author (another big problem), and did not purchase the book at that moment (the real problem). In going back to buy it, naturally it was sold… I have no way to track it down, other than to ask if you might be familiar with it. I thought it was written by either LeAnn Morgan or Arthur Andersen (not the consulting/accounting firm, but a person), and called their  consulting company (Morgan Andersen) in New York. No luck. To anyone who might be familiar with this book: I would be most appreciative if you could leave the title, author and publisher. Thank you! Thanks again…

Response:

This might be a long-shot, but… Several weeks ago I was strolling through a Barnes & Noble bookshop in  the Dallas area

Notice that you’re an AOL member – you might want to try keyword <Barnes & Noble and try to do your search / shopping online. Hope you can find the book. Regards, –Leslie– There’s not much to be said about the period except that most writers don’t reach it soon enough. –Zinsser

Response:

book which focused on establishing Fee-Based compensation for advertising agencies.

Check out Amazon Books online at http://www.amazon.com — Mike Carlson, PhD dba Strategic Perspectives 2159 S Scranton Way / Aurora, CO 80014 (303) 750-5248 / (fax) 338-1132 website: http://www.strategic-p.com

Response: