Question:

NEBRASKA http://www.unogateway.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/03/29/4248e409e1ef6 No safe haven for Nebraska children Scott Stewart March 29, 2005 The state of Nebraska is one of four states that have no kind of "Safe Haven" law. Such a law would allow unwilling parents to give away their newborn child without fear of charges for child abandonment or neglect. Safe Haven laws have been passed in forty-six states in response to a growing concern about child abandonment, perhaps prompted by stories about children being left in dumpsters or other locations. For instance, last Thursday, the Omaha World-Herald reported that Maria Vargas, 18, gave birth in her family’s bathtub on Saturday, March 20. Police found the baby under clothes in a laundry basket, hidden in a closet. There was some injury to a child. Cases like these have renewed questions about why Nebraska joins Alaska, Hawaii and Vermont as the only states without some sort of Safe Haven laws. Senator Elaine Stuhr of Bradshaw (district 24) proposed Legislative Bill 307 calling for the state to create a task force on safe havens for abandoned infants, provide duties and declare an emergency. The task force, if approved, would research issues involving child abandonment in Nebraska and make recommendations to the Unicameral by the start of 2006. A proposal made by Stuhr last year, LB 933, would have given Nebraska a Safe Haven law similar to Colorado’s, where unharmed infants younger than 72 hours could be turned over to hospitals, fire stations, substance abuse centers and some churches and licensed child placement agencies. The submission would be made anonymously, with some basic health questions (such as propensity for diabetes) being asked. Stuhr’s 2004 proposal would have also allowed for a one-month waiting period where parents could change their minds before placing the child up for adoption. Residences of Iowa can turn over newborns two weeks old or younger to hospital emergency rooms or other medical facilities. Residences of South Dakota have 60 days, Kansas 45 days and Missouri and Wyoming have 30 days. UNO senior Henry Karpf said, "I think Nebraska should have a Safe Haven law." He also said he didn’t know why Nebraska wouldn’t have one while nearly every other state does.

Response:

In the legislative jungle, there is a cardinal rule, Monkey see, monkey do. Not a word on effectiveness, not a word on adoption, it’s all about, "Hey, every other state has one, why don’t we?" It’s like a hula-hoop, or Nike’s.

Response:

<<<It’s like a hula-hoop, or Nike’s. Let’s talk about the efficacy of Nikes and hula-hoops. Nikes still sell more then almost any athletic shoe in the world, that’s effectiveness. They also continue to improve their model of athletic performance. Hula-hoops are still as much fun as they were over three decades ago, solid efficacy. They still provide that same fun for many generations, and are known as a household name. If either product was a so-called fad they would have disappeared from existence long ago. Of course the effectiveness of Baby Safe Haven laws is now very clear. Just look at the model here in Massachusetts. Prior to our law passing, going back four years, 13 newborns were abandoned, six died, four came within minutes of death, three were safely surrendered under what some parents thought were laws from adjoining states.  Well over half were stripped of their identities in both life and death. That’s the efficacy of the opponents of Baby Safe Haven laws. Since passage one newborn was safely surrendered under the law, a second was three months older then the law allowed, but the Mom was properly counseled, kept in full confidentiality, and both Mom and baby are doing well.   Both Moms have the full immunity from prosecution that allows all medical/familial historical information to go along with the baby. Your prior model of non-passage, you advocated for, was a horrific disaster. Now 99% of the US population knows better Ms

Response:

Let’s talk about the efficacy of Nikes and hula-hoops. Nikes still sell more then almost any athletic shoe in the world, that’s effectiveness. They also continue to improve their model of athletic performance. Hula-hoops are still as much fun as they were over three decades ago, solid efficacy. They still provide that same fun for many generations, and are known as a household name. Thanks for proving my point, that baby dumps are about branding and nmae identification; in the first case the genius of Phil Knight in getting kids to shell out $120 for sneakers he pays 5 bucks for, the second for Whammo for patenting a plastic hoop. Of course the effectiveness of Baby Safe Haven laws is now very clear. Clear as mud. In California, the state has absolutely no mechanism for accounting for lethally abandoned infants, and was embarassed to discover that it had failed the minimum standards of doing so set forth in the 2001 Safe Haven law. As far as can be determined, as many babies have been lethally abandoned after 2001 per annum as before. Some effectiveness. We’ll see how it goes over the years in Mass, but I don’t see any data to indicate that Safe Havens will fare any better in decreasing lethal abandonment there than here. No matter, PT Barnum had it right, a sucker is born every minute. just because you can convince a ghetto kid he "needs" $120 sneakers, or a little girl that she "needs" to buy a $10 plastic hoop, or a legislature that they "need" baby dumps doesn’t make you anything other than a huckster. Ron

Response:

<<<It’s like a hula-hoop, or Nike’s. Let’s talk about the efficacy of Nikes and hula-hoops. Nikes still sell more then almost any athletic shoe in the world, that’s effectiveness. They also continue to improve their model of athletic performance.

That’s effectiveness of the marketing spin, not of the actual product. Big difference. Hula-hoops are still as much fun as they were over three decades ago, solid efficacy. They still provide that same fun for many generations, and are known as a household name. If either product was a so-called fad they would have disappeared from existence long ago.

Hula hoops did dissapear from popularity for decades, only to resurface when the marketing campaign is renewed. Body piercing has been around for generations, but only became popular in the 90’s.  Same with red meat, thanks to Atkins.  Neither is particularly good for you, so what’s your point?? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course the effectiveness of Baby Safe Haven laws is now very clear. Just look at the model here in Massachusetts. Prior to our law passing, going back four years, 13 newborns were abandoned, six died, four came within minutes of death, three were safely surrendered under what some parents thought were laws from adjoining states.  Well over half were stripped of their identities in both life and death. That’s the efficacy of the opponents of Baby Safe Haven laws. Since passage one newborn was safely surrendered under the law, a second was three months older then the law allowed, but the Mom was properly counseled, kept in full confidentiality, and both Mom and baby are doing well.   Both Moms have the full immunity from prosecution that allows all medical/familial historical information to go along with the baby. Your prior model of non-passage, you advocated for, was a horrific disaster. Now 99% of the US population knows better Ms

Yeah, sure they do.  Good luck with that newly minted law in MA…here’s what California has experienced: "In California, the number of infants that are illegally abandoned still exceed the number of those safely given up anonymously. Since the Safely Surrendered Baby Law was passed in 2001, 56 babies were legally abandoned, while another 98 have been illegally abandoned, according to the Associated Press." http://66.195.16.55/nat648.html Chickeyd

Response:

Question:

I lived most of my life in Toronto. I was gigging 6 days a week (wed off) including a Saturday night gig, Saturday after hour gig, Sunday Matinee, and Sunday evening. Good gigging, but cost of living caught up to me. I couldn’t afford car insurance let alone rent. So…I headed west young man….. I now have a great gig, all the fill in work I want, a house, too many cars AND a bonus I never counted on, winters here are way milder and I usually only see snow if I drive up to the mountains and go looking for it. Spent the day yesterday at a winery and then off to the beach….. Margaritas on the deck tonight…life is good… Jay S

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, what are things like in TO these days? My wife and I have been talking semi-seriously about moving there should it get too strange here. Don’t know if we’d be able to find jobs as Americans though. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell Man….I should stop by for a few gigs next time I’m on my way down to Myrtle Beach…. Steve, eh? We have a nice little secret going in Charlotte NC (although the scene kind of sucks right now). There’s a TON of money in this little city, and jazz gigs pay a lot better here than in other cities I’ve experienced. There’s lots of restaurant/bar work to be had for jazz, and even some steady gigs. Casuals pay a very decent buck.There is also some pit work for touring shows, as well as the local theatre troupes. The best part is, the jazz scene is relatively small, so the depth chart is pretty thin. There are 16 year olds making "A list" gigs here simply because no on else is available. . If you have a good feel, can read chord charts, and can play decent solos, you’re in. If you can read notes, the place is wide open. It’s entirely possible to make a living as a player here if you can hustle. The downside is that the same bankers, accountants and software guys who pump money into the city are also completely stiff and boring. The polities apathy you get at every gig takes some getting used to. Basically, if you play quiet enough for them to discuss stock portflios while sipping an amusing little Chardonnay, you’re a "good player".  If you’re into partying hard late into the night though, this ain’t the place to do it; there are a few places, but you really have to look. Also, the city has that eerie Ned Flanders beige-y sameness to it that all New South cities seem to have. If you’re coming from the North, this will take some getting used to. Overall, I like it though. Been here 7 years; my last non-teaching day job was over 5 years ago. No complaints.

Response:

Actually, what are things like in TO these days? My wife and I have been talking semi-seriously about moving there should it get too strange here. Don’t know if we’d be able to find jobs as Americans though. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man….I should stop by for a few gigs next time I’m on my way down to Myrtle Beach…. Steve, eh? We have a nice little secret going in Charlotte NC (although the scene kind of sucks right now). There’s a TON of money in this little city, and jazz gigs pay a lot better here than in other cities I’ve experienced. There’s lots of restaurant/bar work to be had for jazz, and even some steady gigs. Casuals pay a very decent buck.There is also some pit work for touring shows, as well as the local theatre troupes. The best part is, the jazz scene is relatively small, so the depth chart is pretty thin. There are 16 year olds making "A list" gigs here simply because no on else is available. . If you have a good feel, can read chord charts, and can play decent solos, you’re in. If you can read notes, the place is wide open. It’s entirely possible to make a living as a player here if you can hustle. The downside is that the same bankers, accountants and software guys who pump money into the city are also completely stiff and boring. The polities apathy you get at every gig takes some getting used to. Basically, if you play quiet enough for them to discuss stock portflios while sipping an amusing little Chardonnay, you’re a "good player".  If you’re into partying hard late into the night though, this ain’t the place to do it; there are a few places, but you really have to look. Also, the city has that eerie Ned Flanders beige-y sameness to it that all New South cities seem to have. If you’re coming from the North, this will take some getting used to. Overall, I like it though. Been here 7 years; my last non-teaching day job was over 5 years ago. No complaints.

Response:

You don’t mess with Texas. I loved Houston. Really. It’s a lot better than Miami, IMO (sorry Miamians !) — Henry! Q. Why do some bands even have bass players? A. To translate for the drummer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, I was thinking about Texas for awhile, but both my current girlfriend and I both have too many bad experiences with people who came from there/moved back there, so the Lonestar state is right out.  8*/ Anyone know what the more temperate areas of AZ are like? I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well. Austin is warm, happenin, and it seems damn near everyone in the town plays guitar. Boulder’s a great hippie town too.  And it’s never as cold as you might think there.

Response:

Bring a chick singer with you, and you may never leave. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man….I should stop by for a few gigs next time I’m on my way down to Myrtle Beach…. Steve, eh? We have a nice little secret going in Charlotte NC (although the scene kind of sucks right now). There’s a TON of money in this little city, and jazz gigs pay a lot better here than in other cities I’ve experienced. There’s lots of restaurant/bar work to be had for jazz, and even some steady gigs. Casuals pay a very decent buck.There is also some pit work for touring shows, as well as the local theatre troupes. The best part is, the jazz scene is relatively small, so the depth chart is pretty thin. There are 16 year olds making "A list" gigs here simply because no on else is available. . If you have a good feel, can read chord charts, and can play decent solos, you’re in. If you can read notes, the place is wide open. It’s entirely possible to make a living as a player here if you can hustle. The downside is that the same bankers, accountants and software guys who pump money into the city are also completely stiff and boring. The polities apathy you get at every gig takes some getting used to. Basically, if you play quiet enough for them to discuss stock portflios while sipping an amusing little Chardonnay, you’re a "good player".  If you’re into partying hard late into the night though, this ain’t the place to do it; there are a few places, but you really have to look. Also, the city has that eerie Ned Flanders beige-y sameness to it that all New South cities seem to have. If you’re coming from the North, this will take some getting used to. Overall, I like it though. Been here 7 years; my last non-teaching day job was over 5 years ago. No complaints.

Response:

I would move to Miami in a heartbeat. I was actually on my way there when I stopped here "temporarily". — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You don’t mess with Texas. I loved Houston. Really. It’s a lot better than Miami, IMO (sorry Miamians !) — Henry! Q. Why do some bands even have bass players? A. To translate for the drummer. Yeah, I was thinking about Texas for awhile, but both my current girlfriend and I both have too many bad experiences with people who came from there/moved back there, so the Lonestar state is right out.  8*/ Anyone know what the more temperate areas of AZ are like? I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well. Austin is warm, happenin, and it seems damn near everyone in the town plays guitar. Boulder’s a great hippie town too.  And it’s never as cold as you might think there.

Response:

Never been to Hawaii or Florida, but I can say from personal experiance that Vegas is *way* too hot for me (at least in the summer).  I was there for about three days last August, and walking around outside at 11:00 at night, it was still 110 degrees!  Don’t know much about the music scene there, though.

Yeah,  but it’s a dry heat!   Seriously, when I lived in San Diego we always got a week or two of 110+ temps, so when I moved to Georgia I thought it couldn’t be any worse.  I soon found that 95 degrees & 100% humidity with no wind was much more uncomfortable than 110 & 20% humidity and the wind blowing at 30 mph.

Response:

TO is a big city – there should be lots of gigs to be had…. but as in any town, there are a few guys that get all the calls.  I know of one bass player that came to town from the US and about 3 years later was playing with some of the top guys…. You would love living in Canada though.  Not to hijack the thread but….. Come up for a holiday some time! Steve, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, what are things like in TO these days? My wife and I have been talking semi-seriously about moving there should it get too strange here. Don’t know if we’d be able to find jobs as Americans though.

Response:

I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well.   Thanks in advance! –Lee

Response:

I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well.  

Austin is warm, happenin, and it seems damn near everyone in the town plays guitar. Boulder’s a great hippie town too.  And it’s never as cold as you might think there.   —   /"  ASCII Ribbon Campaign                | Todd H   /                                       | http://www.toddh.net/    X   Promoting good netiquette            | http://triplethreatband.com/   /  http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/     | "4 lines suffice."

Response:

Resort areas like Las Vegas/ Hawaii/ Florida etc. usually have work and are warm.  These areas also attract some really good players.                               Aloha, Jerry

Response:

Resort areas like Las Vegas/ Hawaii/ Florida etc. usually have work and are warm.  These areas also attract some really good players. Aloha, Jerry

Never been to Hawaii or Florida, but I can say from personal experiance that Vegas is *way* too hot for me (at least in the summer).  I was there for about three days last August, and walking around outside at 11:00 at night, it was still 110 degrees!  Don’t know much about the music scene there, though.     -Zev http://www.wayeri.com

Response:

Never been to Hawaii or Florida, but I can say from personal experiance that Vegas is *way* too hot for me (at least in the summer).  I was there for about three days last August, and walking around outside at 11:00 at night, it was still 110 degrees!  Don’t know much about the music scene there, though.   -Zev

I’ve done some gigs in Vegas….I agree! But I have some musician friends who have moved there and love it…..especially the lower cost of living compared to here.                              Aloha, Jerry

Response:

I hear Tampa/Clearwater, FL has a happenin’ jazz scene. Bud

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well. Thanks in advance! –Lee

Response:

Man….I should stop by for a few gigs next time I’m on my way down to Myrtle Beach…. Steve, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have a nice little secret going in Charlotte NC (although the scene kind of sucks right now). There’s a TON of money in this little city, and jazz gigs pay a lot better here than in other cities I’ve experienced. There’s lots of restaurant/bar work to be had for jazz, and even some steady gigs. Casuals pay a very decent buck.There is also some pit work for touring shows, as well as the local theatre troupes. The best part is, the jazz scene is relatively small, so the depth chart is pretty thin. There are 16 year olds making "A list" gigs here simply because no on else is available. . If you have a good feel, can read chord charts, and can play decent solos, you’re in. If you can read notes, the place is wide open. It’s entirely possible to make a living as a player here if you can hustle. The downside is that the same bankers, accountants and software guys who pump money into the city are also completely stiff and boring. The polities apathy you get at every gig takes some getting used to. Basically, if you play quiet enough for them to discuss stock portflios while sipping an amusing little Chardonnay, you’re a "good player".  If you’re into partying hard late into the night though, this ain’t the place to do it; there are a few places, but you really have to look. Also, the city has that eerie Ned Flanders beige-y sameness to it that all New South cities seem to have. If you’re coming from the North, this will take some getting used to. Overall, I like it though. Been here 7 years; my last non-teaching day job was over 5 years ago. No complaints.

Response:

I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well.   Thanks in advance! –Lee

There’s a HUGE music scene in New Orleans.  It’s plenty warm.  Plenty crooked.  Anything goes.  Tons of jazz.  Semi-low cost of living, but it’s made up in fees, taxes, car insurance and bribes (yes, this place is fuled, even at my job, by how much back scratchin’ you’re willin’ ta’ do).  Take some top shelf food to an audition and you’re in.  Get pulled over, keep a hundy in your visor.  Ain’t nothing that can’t be cured with a few King Cakes. —    O< "Hey, who’s da’ U-boat Captain?" /()    ^^                                                      Slidell, LA

Response:

We have a nice little secret going in Charlotte NC (although the scene kind of sucks right now). There’s a TON of money in this little city, and jazz gigs pay a lot better here than in other cities I’ve experienced. There’s lots of restaurant/bar work to be had for jazz, and even some steady gigs. Casuals pay a very decent buck.There is also some pit work for touring shows, as well as the local theatre troupes. The best part is, the jazz scene is relatively small, so the depth chart is pretty thin. There are 16 year olds making "A list" gigs here simply because no on else is available. . If you have a good feel, can read chord charts, and can play decent solos, you’re in. If you can read notes, the place is wide open. It’s entirely possible to make a living as a player here if you can hustle. The downside is that the same bankers, accountants and software guys who pump money into the city are also completely stiff and boring. The polities apathy you get at every gig takes some getting used to. Basically, if you play quiet enough for them to discuss stock portflios while sipping an amusing little Chardonnay, you’re a "good player".  If you’re into partying hard late into the night though, this ain’t the place to do it; there are a few places, but you really have to look. Also, the city has that eerie Ned Flanders beige-y sameness to it that all New South cities seem to have. If you’re coming from the North, this will take some getting used to. Overall, I like it though. Been here 7 years; my last non-teaching day job was over 5 years ago. No complaints. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well. Thanks in advance! –Lee

Response:

Yeah, I was thinking about Texas for awhile, but both my current girlfriend and I both have too many bad experiences with people who came from there/moved back there, so the Lonestar state is right out.  8*/   Anyone know what the more temperate areas of AZ are like?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of leaving the Land Of The 8′ Overnight Snowdrifts (aka the East Coast) for warmer climes.  I’d like to move someplace like Arizona, or the warmer parts of Colorado, but I don’t know where the big music hotspots are.  Any AGB members live around those parts feel like chiming in?  I’d prefer to live in/close by a place that’s jazz-friendly, but I can stand a rock n’ roll/blues town as well. Austin is warm, happenin, and it seems damn near everyone in the town plays guitar. Boulder’s a great hippie town too.  And it’s never as cold as you might think there.

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Question:

Continued purrs that it works out for DH to get the job. Cheers, helen s

With additional purrs and meatloaf meditations coming also from the Highland 3+2. We’ll definitely keep fingers (and claws and tails) crossed that DH is able to snag a job that he enjoys and that will pay the bills. At the same time, would appreciate purrs and meatloafs for both DW and I to find jobs *we* like. She’s still working her 3 month contract assignment (8 months later), and I’m still working the programming job that I hate with a fine passion. But there is light breaking on the horizon! Nancy’s employers have started to hint at the possibility of permanent employment, and I’ve been looking into some independant contract work (driving a semi again, but on regional routers that’d get me home most evenings) that might pay the bills nicely. We’ll see what develops! Dan M

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For sure!  These purrs seem to be working for others so you can have some too  Hope it all works out for you guys. — Britta Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on Vino and "friends" album

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the same time, would appreciate purrs and meatloafs for both DW and I to find jobs *we* like. She’s still working her 3 month contract assignment (8 months later), and I’m still working the programming job that I hate with a fine passion. But there is light breaking on the horizon! Nancy’s employers have started to hint at the possibility of permanent employment, and I’ve been looking into some independant contract work (driving a semi again, but on regional routers that’d get me home most evenings) that might pay the bills nicely. We’ll see what develops! Dan M

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. — Seanette Blaylock I don’t know you, but it sounds like "steadily employed" isn’t something he has been prone to do? Jill

Bob was laid off work last year, with the economy and the job situation that is the way it is, it’s taken this long to find another employment that actually pays a few bills . I don’t think I’d classify him as a slacker. Several of us on the group have been bitten by recession etc. The job market truly sucks right now. Grace

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. — Seanette Blaylock I don’t know you, but it sounds like "steadily employed" isn’t something he has been prone to do? Jill Bob was laid off work last year, with the economy and the job situation that is the way it is, it’s taken this long to find another employment that actually pays a few bills . I don’t think I’d classify him as a slacker. Several of us on the group have been bitten by recession etc. The job market truly sucks right now. Grace

And it depends on what you do and what folks are looking for and where you are.  We have run an add 4 weeks straight for licensed real estate appraisers and have received a total of 6 resumes.  Of those only one person was licensed and was relocating (we hired her), two were taking classes and interested in apprenticing, we took a chance on one of those guys even though we knew he would require supervision on every inspection, but he is a real gem and a huge help in the office too. All the rest had no experience at all and their resumes had numerous typos!  My mom ran an ad for 2 weeks for an accounting assistant after hers left.  Decent pay, good benefits, full time.  She got 1 response.  I am baffled.  She is now working until midnight almost every night doing the work because she can’t find anyone. We have more business than our skimpy staff of 4 can handle, so we have to turn it away, which we do not want to do at all. We also have three contract appraisers and we have to bury them with work.   They don’t seem to mind because I am sure they love the return but even they are getting burnt out. I often go back to the office at night after dinner. Last week I was at the office until 3am two nights just typing reports and general office stuff. Not  having the option of qualified folks to chose from is just amazing to me.  I had decided not to get licensed and just do administrative and management stuff, but I guess I better for the sake of our business. Last August we ran an ad for an appraisers assistant and we received over 200 resumes.  Out of those after numerous initial contact phone calls,  we only interviewed 4 people (due to the others not even being close to qualified) .  Now when I say qualified I don’t mean they have to know it all, a good attitude and willingness to learn, the ability to work autonomously (I always hated being "managed" so I don’t want to do it to others), having used a computer before and having worked in an office environment are all I am looking for!  Some of the folks had never done any of that, didn’t know what autonomous meant and they didn’t really like the 9 to 5 hours either.  LOL. We got really lucky because the only diamond in the bunch turned out to be perfect, and she had actually done the actual job before!  She knew how to research properties better then I did and taught me a few things. Perfect! So the staff we have assembled is great but I wish we could find more!! So good luck to Bob! TJ

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about Re: OT: DH: He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. Go for it, Seanette. After years of managing the art department (if you can imagine the stress involved in "managing" a bunch of highly-creative women) after I quit, I discovered I was a stepford wife at heart. I like it. I garden, can vegetables, learned to sew. And the real kicker is, I don’t miss the salary . It’s just plain unbelievable. It’s not for everybody, but you sound like you’d like it. Good luck!

I was a full-time homemaker for seven years, so I’m familiar with the territory . It doesn’t help that DH [who's apparently still locked into housework being my department] hasn’t been what you’d call helpful on the domestic front while I’m dealing with the job. — Seanette Blaylock "You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." – Alan Krueger in NANAE [make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]

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things to say about OT: Re: DH: He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. I don’t know you, but it sounds like "steadily employed" isn’t something he has been prone to do?

Actually, he spent 16 years with his former employer before a layoff caused solely by lack of work [and he's been intermittently going back there as a temp ]. He’s the kind of person who wants to entrench in a little rut [same job, same home address, same car, etc.]. My SO (Ray) keeps telling me I don’t have to work.  But I’ve been independent for so long, I think of things he probably doesn’t.  I like the fact that I earn a very decent wage.  If I want to buy something, I assess my budget and if it won’t disrupt my paying bills, I buy it.  Even if it’s frivolous.  I collect vintage clothing and reproduction costumes.  To some men, this would fall under the category of "don’t need it, don’t buy it". But hey, I can afford it, so I do.  I do NOT want to be accounting to him because I’m spending *his* money.  Know what I mean?  That would throw us (women) right back to 1900.

I get $8/hour, no benefits, and it’s about 3/4 time [another grumble: I get a choice between getting griped at for leaving necessary stuff undone or getting griped at for working long enough to get stuff done]. I do the money management in our family anyway, so don’t usually have problems with him griping about me indulging in something I enjoy. If you are so inclined, and your DH doesn’t mind whatever you enjoy that he might deem frivilous, then go for staying at home.  I could certainly find things to do if I didn’t work full time.  But I do love my job.

You’re fortunate. Best wishes that he gets the job!  However, I’d wait a bit before I quit mine.  Just my 2 cents.

True. — Seanette Blaylock "You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." – Alan Krueger in NANAE [make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]

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I’m in a very small town called Banchang, about 2.5 hours south east of Bangkok.  It’s not on the map but would be about halfway between Pattaya and Rayong.  The next closest town you might see on maps is Sattahip. We have been here for 1 year 4 months but lived in Songkhla (Southern Thailand) for 6 months before that.  We’ve been to Chiang Mai many times and absolutely love it — Britta Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on Vino and "friends" album

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What part of Thailand?  I lived in Bangkok as a kid (age 9-10), but that was 34 years ago.  I have a friend who currenly lives in Chiang Mai. It’s a lovely country. Jill

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I feel totally differently about that.  I may not be earning any money right now, but I feel very entitled to spend the money Dennis makes, even on frivolous things.  I brought way more money into the marriage to begin with, allowing us to put a large downpayment on our condo.  And my inheritance will provide for our retirement, whereas Dennis’ mother will have to be provided for out of our money when she can’t work anymore. My parents are set up and won’t be a financial burden on us when they get old.  So it all averages out in the end.  That’s why I don’t feel like a "kept woman".  And Dennis would never hold any of my spending over my head, thank goodness — Britta Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on Vino and "friends" album

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My SO (Ray) keeps telling me I don’t have to work.  But I’ve been independent for so long, I think of things he probably doesn’t.  I like the fact that I earn a very decent wage.  If I want to buy something, I assess my budget and if it won’t disrupt my paying bills, I buy it.  Even if it’s frivolous.  I collect vintage clothing and reproduction costumes.  To some men, this would fall under the category of "don’t need it, don’t buy it". But hey, I can afford it, so I do.  I do NOT want to be accounting to him because I’m spending *his* money.  Know what I mean?  That would throw us (women) right back to 1900. If you are so inclined, and your DH doesn’t mind whatever you enjoy that he might deem frivilous, then go for staying at home.  I could certainly find things to do if I didn’t work full time.  But I do love my job. Best wishes that he gets the job!  However, I’d wait a bit before I quit mine.  Just my 2 cents. Jill

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I’m in a very small town called Banchang, about 2.5 hours south east of Bangkok.  It’s not on the map but would be about halfway between Pattaya and Rayong.  The next closest town you might see on maps is Sattahip. We have been here for 1 year 4 months but lived in Songkhla (Southern Thailand) for 6 months before that.  We’ve been to Chiang Mai many times and absolutely love it — Britta Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on Vino and "friends" album

Wonderful!  I remember Pattaya and Sattahip well.  I enjoyed Thailand even though I was very young at the time. Jill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What part of Thailand?  I lived in Bangkok as a kid (age 9-10), but that was 34 years ago.  I have a friend who currenly lives in Chiang Mai. It’s a lovely country. Jill

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Continued purrs that it works out for DH to get the job. Cheers, helen s Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply! Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd

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Yeah, I agree.  I’ve been staying home since we moved to Thailand and I love it!  Mind you, I couldn’t work here if I wanted to because only Dennis has a working visa, but even after we leave Thailand, I don’t see myself working more than very part time.  Sometimes I get a bit bored and lonely, but then I remind myself of the old Minolta photocopier fixing days and I’m in love with staying home again — Britta

What part of Thailand?  I lived in Bangkok as a kid (age 9-10), but that was 34 years ago.  I have a friend who currenly lives in Chiang Mai. It’s a lovely country. Jill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on Vino and "friends" album He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. Go for it, Seanette. After years of managing the art department (if you can imagine the stress involved in "managing" a bunch of highly-creative women) after I quit, I discovered I was a stepford wife at heart. I like it. I garden, can vegetables, learned to sew. And the real kicker is, I don’t miss the salary . It’s just plain unbelievable. It’s not for everybody, but you sound like you’d like it. Good luck! Sherry

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He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. — Seanette Blaylock

I don’t know you, but it sounds like "steadily employed" isn’t something he has been prone to do? My SO (Ray) keeps telling me I don’t have to work.  But I’ve been independent for so long, I think of things he probably doesn’t.  I like the fact that I earn a very decent wage.  If I want to buy something, I assess my budget and if it won’t disrupt my paying bills, I buy it.  Even if it’s frivolous.  I collect vintage clothing and reproduction costumes.  To some men, this would fall under the category of "don’t need it, don’t buy it". But hey, I can afford it, so I do.  I do NOT want to be accounting to him because I’m spending *his* money.  Know what I mean?  That would throw us (women) right back to 1900. If you are so inclined, and your DH doesn’t mind whatever you enjoy that he might deem frivilous, then go for staying at home.  I could certainly find things to do if I didn’t work full time.  But I do love my job. Best wishes that he gets the job!  However, I’d wait a bit before I quit mine.  Just my 2 cents. Jill

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Yeah, I agree.  I’ve been staying home since we moved to Thailand and I love it!  Mind you, I couldn’t work here if I wanted to because only Dennis has a working visa, but even after we leave Thailand, I don’t see myself working more than very part time.  Sometimes I get a bit bored and lonely, but then I remind myself of the old Minolta photocopier fixing days and I’m in love with staying home again — Britta Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on Vino and "friends" album

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. Go for it, Seanette. After years of managing the art department (if you can imagine the stress involved in "managing" a bunch of highly-creative women) after I quit, I discovered I was a stepford wife at heart. I like it. I garden, can vegetables, learned to sew. And the real kicker is, I don’t miss the salary . It’s just plain unbelievable. It’s not for everybody, but you sound like you’d like it. Good luck! Sherry

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He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. — Seanette Blaylock "You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." – Alan Krueger in NANAE [make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]

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thanks for the update — paws and tails crossed for things to go well Monday! Christine, Omar, Midnight, Shetra & Oreo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ]. — Seanette Blaylock "You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." – Alan Krueger in NANAE [make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]

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He was at the interview for over an hour, and has a second interview Monday morning. I’m cautiously optimistic [and seriously considering giving notice at my job once DH is steadily employed, if he's making enough that my income is not *necessary*. I was happier as a homemaker, the office atmosphere is a cross between a soap opera and a dysfunctional family, and I'm now waking up most mornings with hand/wrist pain ].

Go for it, Seanette. After years of managing the art department (if you can imagine the stress involved in "managing" a bunch of highly-creative women) after I quit, I discovered I was a stepford wife at heart. I like it. I garden, can vegetables, learned to sew. And the real kicker is, I don’t miss the salary . It’s just plain unbelievable. It’s not for everybody, but you sound like you’d like it. Good luck! Sherry

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Question:

My spread sheet showed that the difference between flying a new C182 or SR20 and flying my clubs 1975 Arrow for 100 hours was almost $10,000/year.   I used the OurPlane Gold level for comparison.  This comparison did NOT attempt to factor in the cost of depreciation.

I suspect depreciation alone on a $200,000+ new plane could be $20,000 or more over 3 years. It might turn out more like leasing a brand new Chevy every 3 years (OurPlane) vs. buying a used Lexus (buying a used C182 and equipping it to the hilt). — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

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In 1967 I bought a brand new, Plymouth Barracuda that came with a 50,000-mile warranty. This might not have been the only reason the U. S. had to bailout Chrysler, but it certainly contributed.

Yet today 50,000 miles is pretty normal for a high quality (read Japanese) car.  The reason is continuous improvement.  Continuous improvement is, for all practical purposes, made impossible by the FAA. Michael

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You’re right.  I was thinking of turbocharged engines.  If you run them at high power and high altitude they usually overheat.   A Turbo Lance without an aftermarket intercooler will generally have CHTs well over 410 above 75% power above 16K feet.  The POH shows performance at something like 84% power at FL200 as being 190kts but the engine probably won’t live very long if operated there (these numbers are from memory YMMV).  Add mixture control and the potential for problems is increased significantly. Most Garrett (now Honeywell) TPE331-14 engines, usually found on Cheyenne 400LS airplanes, are on MSP.  As a result, they are generally operated flat-out all the time, significantly increasing operating costs. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These programs are available for turbine engines.  The problem with doing this for  piston engines is that everyone would run them at full power all the time and the engines often can’t take it. Actually, most piston engines will very happily run at full throttle all the time, as long as you keep pouring in the fuel and keep the cowl flaps open enough that they don’t overtemp. The real problem with doing this for piston engines is that you have all the reliability of 40 year old technology. These days you can get most new cars with warranties that go on for 5+ years or more (some offer an extended factory warranty for 10 years) and most late-model used cars can be bought with a warranty as well. 40 years ago, an auto dealer would have laughed at the concept. The reliability of automotive piston engines (and aircraft turbine engines, for that matter) has improved greatly in the past 40 years. The aircraft piston engines are basically the same as they were then. Michael

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Plan            Silver         Gold          Platinum Buy-in          32,900        37,900          41,900 Monthly fee        399           499             599

Ooops.  Hours under Gold should be 100.   — Marty Shapiro Silicon Rallye Inc.

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These days you can get most new cars with warranties that go on for 5+ years or more (some offer an extended factory warranty for 10 years) and most late-model used cars can be bought with a warranty as well. 40 years ago, an auto dealer would have laughed at the concept.

In 1967 I bought a brand new, Plymouth Barracuda that came with a 50,000-mile warranty. This might not have been the only reason the U. S. had to bailout Chrysler, but it certainly contributed. — Dan N9387D at BFM

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It’s not a cost savings, I hope I didn’t imply that it would be. The original poster was looking essentially for some kind of insurance that would mean his costs would be predictable. If you want predictability, you’re going to have to pay more unless you happen to be the unlucky one that would’ve had a major issue. Insurance is not free, but some people value the predictability. -Jon C.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I think – you pay them some capital amount plus a (fixed?) maintenance fee plus a variable rate for hours flown. Example: http://www.ourplane.com It is such a cost savings that they do not even put their prices on the website. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

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I looked into our plane about a year ago.  

How do they calculate your equity when you eventually sell? Do you have to put in more equity every few years when they buy new planes? These factors could (and probably do) substantially increase the cost.   Depending on how the accounting is done, you could well lose money vs. buying your own plane — *especially* vs. buying your own used plane in top condition. Depreciation on a brand-new plane is very high, just like a new car. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

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I looked into our plane about a year ago.   How do they calculate your equity when you eventually sell? Do you have to put in more equity every few years when they buy new planes?

I don’t remember for sure, but believe so.  The plan was to replace the aircraft every three years or so. These factors could (and probably do) substantially increase the cost.   Depending on how the accounting is done, you could well lose money vs. buying your own plane — *especially* vs. buying your own used plane in top condition. Depreciation on a brand-new plane is very high, just like a new car.

Yes.  I agree completely.  But, then that is exactly what one expects when buying a new car.  IMHO, OurPlane is to private aviation what a high end luxury car is to driving.  And, just like the better luxury car dealers, they do provide a luxury level of service to the owners. I see a very good market for OurPlane, but it just wasn’t for me. My spread sheet showed that the difference between flying a new C182 or SR20 and flying my clubs 1975 Arrow for 100 hours was almost $10,000/year.   I used the OurPlane Gold level for comparison.  This comparison did NOT attempt to factor in the cost of depreciation. — Marty Shapiro Silicon Rallye Inc.

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These programs are available for turbine engines.  The problem with doing this for  piston engines is that everyone would run them at full power all the time and the engines often can’t take it.

Actually, most piston engines will very happily run at full throttle all the time, as long as you keep pouring in the fuel and keep the cowl flaps open enough that they don’t overtemp. The real problem with doing this for piston engines is that you have all the reliability of 40 year old technology. These days you can get most new cars with warranties that go on for 5+ years or more (some offer an extended factory warranty for 10 years) and most late-model used cars can be bought with a warranty as well. 40 years ago, an auto dealer would have laughed at the concept. The reliability of automotive piston engines (and aircraft turbine engines, for that matter) has improved greatly in the past 40 years. The aircraft piston engines are basically the same as they were then. Michael

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Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I think – you pay them some capital amount plus a (fixed?) maintenance fee plus a variable rate for hours flown. Example: http://www.ourplane.com

It is such a cost savings that they do not even put their prices on the website. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

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http://www.ourplane.com

I looked into our plane about a year ago.   Plus:  New aircraft (C182, SR20, SR2).        ALL maintenance, tie down, and insurance included.          Aircraft fully equipped, including DC headsets.        Someone to look after the aircraft between flights. Prices:  Each plan included a fixed number of hours at $109/hr wet.  Above          that rate was $139/hour wet. Plan            Silver         Gold          Platinum Buy-in          32,900        37,900          41,900 Monthly fee        399           499             599 Total costs    50 hrs/year  10,238         11,438         12,638    75 hrs/year  13,713         14,163         15,363   100 hrs/year  17,188         16,888         18,088   150 hrs/year  24,138         23,838         23,538 Note that the total costs above assume 0% opportunity cost of the buy-in principle.  At 6% opportunity cost, the 100 hrs/year entry would be:   100 hrs/year  19,162         19,162         20,602 While the new  plane was attractive, I decided I could live with an older plane at significantly lower cost and bought a 1/4 share in a Rallye 235. — Marty Shapiro Silicon Rallye Inc.

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Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I

I think these are a very poor deal.  When you look at the monthly and hourly rates, they are usually quite high.  And the biggest question mark is how they calculate depreciation/appreciation on your capital investment. Can anyone point to an example of general aviation fractional ownership which truly is less expensive than owning? For that matter, can anyone point to an example of business jet fractional ownership which truly is less expensive than chartering a jet with no obligation? — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

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Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased?

Turbine/jet airplanes sometimes are maintained on a fixed per-hour basis.  I think that is the closest to a used "guarantee" one can find. I do not think this is offered for piston airplanes. I doubt a short-term warranty would work; the costs are so variable in airplane maintenance that they really need to be averaged over time.   And there are so many judgment issues as well as to when an item needs to be replaced so that a long-term contract is needed to make things workable. If this were offered for single-engine planes, I suspect most owners would not be willling to pay what it costs — such a program would no doubt include all suggested 50-hr. maintenance, all service bulletins, all overhauls at TBO, all time-limited parts, regular replacement of hoses, miscellaneous items like turbocharger check valve replacement, honoring TBOs by calendar as well as hours, etc., etc. (basically Part 135 level maintenance).  Those owners willing and able to pay for such maintenance probably could/would just pay for it directly (and average out the spikes in costs) rather than pay an insurance company a premium simply to administrate this process. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

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Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I think – you pay them some capital amount plus a (fixed?) maintenance fee plus a variable rate for hours flown. Example: http://www.ourplane.com -Jon C.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased? What would it be worth to those who are purchasing a plane to warrant the engine in the plane they are buying against a loss of compression, cracked cylinder / head, or other major malfunction – cracked crankcase, rod, piston, crankshaft problem etc. – the really expensive things that would require removal of cylinders or the entire engine to repair (not a simple rocker cover gasket leak, fouled plug , vacuum pump failure etc.) for a period of 120 days or 100 hours whichever comes first? Assume that the warranty company would inspect the engine at pre-purchase inspection time.  The warranty rate would be scaled to the cost of a zero-time engine from the manufacturer and somewhat proportional to the % of TBO hours on the engine.  Would it be 2%, 3%, 4%, or what % of the cost of a zero-time engine to warranty a mid-life engine (600-800 hours) with a $250 deductible?  One could probably reduce their pre-purchase inspection cost by doing this. Payouts for several types of repairs (cylinder / piston replacement, etc.) would be fixed and documented clearly in the policy and even more technically for the repair facility (like they do for dentists and HMOs). Engines requiring complete rebuilds would be shipped to a well-known engine rebuilder or to the factory. As an aircraft seller would you be interested in purchasing this type of insurance to make a plane more marketable? Do you think a successful warranty program would have to cover the entire airplane and not just the engine?  How do you exclude the normal pre-existing conditions that normally exist in most used planes?  Do you think only a fully comprehensive policy would fly (full pre-purchase inspection included, full aircraft coverage, all maintenance, annuals, all repairs, no deductible, for 2 years)?  How much is that worth in % of planes book value scaled up by age and hours (roughly 20% – 50% of planes value spread evenly across coverage period)? Not trying to sell anything here, I don’t know if such a company even exists (excluding those for jets), just collecting opinions for a possible business idea.  Any input or desires around this would be appreciated. Thanks, George Sconyers PP-ASEL-IA Piper Saratoga II TC N6124M

Response:

These programs are available for turbine engines.  The problem with doing this for  piston engines is that everyone would run them at full power all the time and the engines often can’t take it. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased? What would it be worth to those who are purchasing a plane to warrant the engine in the plane they are buying against a loss of compression, cracked cylinder / head, or other major malfunction – cracked crankcase, rod, piston, crankshaft problem etc. – the really expensive things that would require removal of cylinders or the entire engine to repair (not a simple rocker cover gasket leak, fouled plug , vacuum pump failure etc.) for a period of 120 days or 100 hours whichever comes first? Assume that the warranty company would inspect the engine at pre-purchase inspection time.  The warranty rate would be scaled to the cost of a zero-time engine from the manufacturer and somewhat proportional to the % of TBO hours on the engine.  Would it be 2%, 3%, 4%, or what % of the cost of a zero-time engine to warranty a mid-life engine (600-800 hours) with a $250 deductible?  One could probably reduce their pre-purchase inspection cost by doing this. Payouts for several types of repairs (cylinder / piston replacement, etc.) would be fixed and documented clearly in the policy and even more technically for the repair facility (like they do for dentists and HMOs). Engines requiring complete rebuilds would be shipped to a well-known engine rebuilder or to the factory. As an aircraft seller would you be interested in purchasing this type of insurance to make a plane more marketable? Do you think a successful warranty program would have to cover the entire airplane and not just the engine?  How do you exclude the normal pre-existing conditions that normally exist in most used planes?  Do you think only a fully comprehensive policy would fly (full pre-purchase inspection included, full aircraft coverage, all maintenance, annuals, all repairs, no deductible, for 2 years)?  How much is that worth in % of planes book value scaled up by age and hours (roughly 20% – 50% of planes value spread evenly across coverage period)? Not trying to sell anything here, I don’t know if such a company even exists (excluding those for jets), just collecting opinions for a possible business idea.  Any input or desires around this would be appreciated. Thanks, George Sconyers PP-ASEL-IA Piper Saratoga II TC N6124M

Response:

Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased? What would it be worth to those who are purchasing a plane to warrant the engine in the plane they are buying against a loss of compression,  cracked cylinder / head, or other major malfunction – cracked crankcase, rod, piston, crankshaft problem etc. – the really expensive things that would require removal of cylinders or the entire engine to repair (not a simple rocker cover gasket leak, fouled plug , vacuum pump failure etc.) for a period of 120 days or 100 hours whichever comes first? Assume that the warranty company would inspect the engine at pre-purchase inspection time.  The warranty rate would be scaled to the cost of a zero-time engine from the manufacturer and somewhat proportional to the % of TBO hours on the engine.  Would it be 2%, 3%, 4%, or what % of the cost of a zero-time engine to warranty a mid-life engine (600-800 hours) with a $250 deductible?  One could probably reduce their pre-purchase inspection cost by doing this. Payouts for several types of repairs (cylinder / piston replacement, etc.) would be fixed and documented clearly in the policy and even more technically for the repair facility (like they do for dentists and HMOs). Engines requiring complete rebuilds would be shipped to a well-known engine rebuilder or to the factory. As an aircraft seller would you be interested in purchasing this type of insurance to make a plane more marketable? Do you think a successful warranty program would have to cover the entire airplane and not just the engine?  How do you exclude the normal pre-existing conditions that normally exist in most used planes?  Do you think only a fully comprehensive policy would fly (full pre-purchase inspection included, full aircraft coverage, all maintenance, annuals, all repairs, no deductible, for 2 years)?  How much is that worth in % of planes book value scaled up by age and hours (roughly 20% – 50% of planes value spread evenly across coverage period)? Not trying to sell anything here, I don’t know if such a company even exists (excluding those for jets), just collecting opinions for a possible business idea.  Any input or desires around this would be appreciated. Thanks, George Sconyers PP-ASEL-IA Piper Saratoga II TC N6124M

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -dsull…@optonline.net (Dan Sullivan) wrote in message <news:f9e1b700.0201141540.7c45219e@posting.google.com>… > "Ron" <APositivePl…@netscape.net> wrote in message <news:AkD08.224289$kf1.65192883@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>… > > Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people > > "donated" their time, energy, and resources? > > As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you > > will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out > > of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less > > $7,000,000,000. > > A dose of reality for you Fern. > > Ron > Hey Ron, > I’ve got an $800 hammer if you need one. > I think toilet seats are about half of that, or are they TWICE that? > Just because the Gov knows where the money goes and who gets it > DOESN’T mean it’s well spent. > You don’t disagree with that do you? > Dan

Fern threw in a Red Herring to divert…that should be Fern’s middle name. As for the subject, the family unit attempts, that and things like it are what got Jen back on track to her kids coming home. I’d say that’s money well spent. Fight the bad CPS does, not the good. Bingo, bango, bongo. Stoneman

Response:

"Dan Sullivan" <dsull…@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:f9e1b700.0201141540.7c45219e@posting.google.com… > "Ron" <APositivePl…@netscape.net> wrote in message

<news:AkD08.224289$kf1.65192883@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people > > "donated" their time, energy, and resources? > > As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you > > will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out > > of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less > > $7,000,000,000. > > A dose of reality for you Fern. > > Ron > Hey Ron, > I’ve got an $800 hammer if you need one. > I think toilet seats are about half of that, or are they TWICE that? > Just because the Gov knows where the money goes and who gets it > DOESN’T mean it’s well spent. > You don’t disagree with that do you? > Dan

Having used some of those $800 hammers, no I would not disagree.  Much of what our government spends its (our) money on I find questionable, but there is no question that they know where they have spent it.  And that is all a audit is designed to do, keep track of where it goes and that it goes to the places that they say they are spending it. So, why is Fern’s so concerned or happy about an audit?  The government has always know where its HHS money is going.  One thing an audit will do though, it will once again prove kneal wrong about HHS workers all pocketing significant portions of it. Ron

Response:

Well, Ron, if you dispute my figures on the 7 BILLION. you dispute NPR’s audio files. Http://www.npr.org Guess you believe Andersen Accounting statements looked over by the SEC. Lots of potential for fraud in Foster Care. Http://www.donttakeourkids.com (Midwest site for restructuring CPS.DSS, DHS.DSHS.DHHS.FCB, TDPRS,CPSS,DCFS,DFCS,DCAFS,CPA,CFS,FCB,CAS,ACS,DSHS,DSS,DHHS,HHS,HHS,DFS,D CF,DCS,DYFS,DFYS,FIA,ABUSE, NEGLECT,CAPTA, WHITE COLLAR CRIME, CSB,FCB,CPPS,CPS, CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES, SRS,SCF,DCYF,DCYS,CYS,CYF

Response:

"Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20020115165025.13589.00002692@mb-fo.aol.com… > Well, Ron, if you dispute my figures on the 7 BILLION. you dispute NPR’s audio > files. > Http://www.npr.org > Guess you believe Andersen Accounting statements looked over by the SEC. > Lots of potential for fraud in Foster Care.

I don’t dispute your 7 billion madam, I dispute your idea that it is misused or stolen.  Something for which there you have presented no evidence, no precedent, and indeed given it very little thought.  But that is no more or less than I have come to expect.  I posted the budget figures remember?  I would think that I had read them. There is potential for fraud in everything madam, I know, I am a manager in a fraud prevention unit.  With that being a given, one must also know that far less than 1% of the losses experienced are due to fraud.  In the world I work in, about 1% of the transaction we see are suspected of fraud, and of that less than 5% is actual fraud.  And it still amounts to several billion annually.  That is in every general class of business endeavor madam.  It is the price of doing business in this world, and one of the reasons we have laws forbidding it.  The laws don’t stop it, but do give us a means of addressing the issue. Is there fraud in HS?  Yes.  A given.  Is it an issue?  Yes, also a given. Is it anywhere near significant, absolutely not.  Your supposition is false on its face, and born of ignorance of more facts than can be committed to a post in Usenet. Do you believe that everyone that reads these posts is going to accept your innuendo’s and unsupported claims?  A moments thought is all that it takes to get past your lack of logic and see the truth.  And for that 1% out there that cannot get there on their own, there are many individuals like myself who can show them the path.  Just like I have shown you, but you have refused over and over again.  Your loss madam, and no skin of my nose.  I will continue to present the facts here for those that are unable to find them, and allow them to draw their own conclusions, instead of following you and the other guides into ignorance. Ron

Response:

"Ron" <APositivePl…@netscape.net> wrote in message <news:AkD08.224289$kf1.65192883@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>… > Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people > "donated" their time, energy, and resources? > As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you > will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out > of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less > $7,000,000,000. > A dose of reality for you Fern. > Ron

Hey Ron, I’ve got an $800 hammer if you need one. I think toilet seats are about half of that, or are they TWICE that? Just because the Gov knows where the money goes and who gets it DOESN’T mean it’s well spent. You don’t disagree with that do you? Dan

Response:

Family Preservation and Family Support Family Preservation and Family Support Services grants focus on strengthening families, preventing abuse, and protecting children. These grants help state child welfare agencies and Indian tribes operate preventive family preservation services and community-based family support services for families at risk or in crisis. Family Support Services, often provided at the local level by community-based organizations, are voluntary, preventive activities to help families nurture their children. They include respite care for parents and caregivers, early developmental screening of children to identify their needs, tutoring, health education for youth, and a range of center-based activities. Family Preservation Services typically are activities that help families alleviate crises that might lead to out-of-home placements of children because of abuse, neglect, or parental inability to care for their children. Funding for Family Preservation and Family Support Services is $295 million in FY 2000. For FY 2001, the Administration requests $305 million for these services. http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/facts/major.html Ron

Response:

"Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20020114100325.08620.00002326@mb-ch.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Foster care in 2001 has 7 BILLION dollars. > All UNAUDITED. till 2001. > Ron sent in: > >Date: 1/12/2002 2:10 PM Eastern Standard Time > >Message-id: <dcee120b.0201121110.7ce6f…@posting.google.com> > >Family Preservation and Family Support > >Family Preservation and Family Support Services grants focus on > >strengthening families, preventing abuse, and protecting children. > >These grants help state child welfare agencies and Indian tribes > >operate preventive family preservation services and community-based > >family support services for families at risk or in crisis. > >Family Support Services, often provided at the local level by > >community-based organizations, are voluntary, preventive activities to > >help families nurture their children. They include respite care for > >parents and caregivers, early developmental screening of children to > >identify their needs, tutoring, health education for youth, and a > >range of center-based activities. Family Preservation Services > >typically are activities that help families alleviate crises that > >might lead to out-of-home placements of children because of abuse, > >neglect, or parental inability to care for their children. Funding for > >Family Preservation and Family Support Services is $295 million in FY > >2000. For FY 2001, the Administration requests $305 million for these > >services. > >http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/facts/major.html > >Ron

Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people "donated" their time, energy, and resources? As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less $7,000,000,000. A dose of reality for you Fern. Ron

Response:

Foster care in 2001 has 7 BILLION dollars. All UNAUDITED. till 2001. Ron sent in: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Date: 1/12/2002 2:10 PM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <dcee120b.0201121110.7ce6f…@posting.google.com> >Family Preservation and Family Support >Family Preservation and Family Support Services grants focus on >strengthening families, preventing abuse, and protecting children. >These grants help state child welfare agencies and Indian tribes >operate preventive family preservation services and community-based >family support services for families at risk or in crisis. >Family Support Services, often provided at the local level by >community-based organizations, are voluntary, preventive activities to >help families nurture their children. They include respite care for >parents and caregivers, early developmental screening of children to >identify their needs, tutoring, health education for youth, and a >range of center-based activities. Family Preservation Services >typically are activities that help families alleviate crises that >might lead to out-of-home placements of children because of abuse, >neglect, or parental inability to care for their children. Funding for >Family Preservation and Family Support Services is $295 million in FY >2000. For FY 2001, the Administration requests $305 million for these >services. >http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/facts/major.html >Ron

Http://www.hope4kidz.org (TX site seeking to reform TDPRS) DESCRIPTORS; DHS,DHR,FCS,DFS,DPSS,CFS,DCAFS,DXB,CPA,DFACS,DCS,DCF,DSS,DHHS,HHS,FIA,ACS, CAS,SRS,SCF,DYFS,DFYS,DCS,DCS,CFS,DCFS,DFCS,DCYF,DCYS,ABUSE, NEGLECT, ABUSE, CAPTA,TROXEL,DSHS,FCB.

Response:

Question:

I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? What if you bought the plane under a LLC corporation and set up the corporation in Oregan???? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)… Before you buy.

Response:

I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? What if you bought the plane under a LLC corporation and set up the corporation in Oregan???? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)…

Funny you should ask.  I just happened to receive a friendly letter on Friday from the California State Board of Equalization, a.k.a. the Sales Tax Collector. 1.  The exact tax rate depends on the county where you live (or maybe it’s where you base the plane, if not in your home county).  Where you are it may be 7.75%.  In Santa Clara County it’s 8.25%. 2.  If you bought the airplane in Oregon and hangared it there a month, you would lose a month of use of your airplane and then you would be due for Use Tax instead of Sales Tax, but it would still be the same tax rate. 3.  OK, I am originally from Oregon, and proud of it.  You’re going to have to start spelling it with two "O’s" if I’m going to help you here.  If I meet you in person, I will also test you for proper pronunciation, but I digress….  Buying the plane as an Oregon corporation won’t save you from the California tax man because it’s all about where the plane is "used or stored," not who owns it or where it’s registered.  They can find you through ramp checks, tie-down leases, and a bunch of other ways, and when they do you’ll get hit for penalties on top of the unpaid taxes. 4.  Paying sales or use tax on an airplane really sucks because you can never recover that expense when you sell the airplane.  Divide that by the number of hours you fly the plane and you’re really increasing the cost of flying it.  If I fly my airplane until TBO, the sales/use tax would be worth $10/hr, and there weren’t a lot of hours on the engine when I bought it. What you need is an exemption.  California offers five major exemptions from use tax: A.  Common Carrier.  Incorporate as a Part 135 Operator and buy the plane for your use in carriage of paying customers.  Preferably interstate flights. B.  Interstate and Foreign Commerce.  Declare nothing and smuggle drugs for a living.  Just kidding. C.  Family Transaction.  Have relatives in Oregon buy the plane and then they can sell it to you. E.  Gift.  Have relatives in Oregon buy the plane and then just give it to you. D.  What happened to D?  Oh yeah.  "Not Purchased for Use in California." This is a good one.  You should look at this one really closely.  According to the State of California:     If an aircraft is purchased outside of California, is first     functionally used outside of California, and is used outside     of California for over 90 days from the date of purchase to     the date of first entry into California, it is regarded as not     having been purchased for use in California.  Shipping time or     time of storage for shipment to California is excluded from the     90 days.  When the property is purchased outside of California     and is first functionally used outside of California then enters     California within the first 90 days after purchase, it can still     be regarded as not having been purchased for use in California     if it is used or stored one-half or more of the time outside of     California during the six-month period immediately following its     entry into this state. So back to your original idea.  What if you bought an airplane in Oregon and based it there for three or four months?  What if you actually went to visit it frequently to keep the oil moving, and thereby rebutted any presumption that it was merely in "storage for shipment to California"?  How much would that be worth to you?

Response:

If an airplane is based out of state for 90 days after its first operational use after purchase, then there’s no sales tax due. There’s another clause which allows the same if (I think) 60 of the first 180 days of operational use are out of state.

Just to be pedantic, it is 90 days from the date of purchase, or alternatively more than one-half of the the first six months from the date of first entry into California (180 days is not quite six months, and 60 days is not quite one-half of six months). The distinction is obviously small, but it could be a very expensive small mistake if you don’t count the days correctly.

Response:

I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane.

The California Revenue and Taxation Code (as well as the other California codes) is available on-line here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

Response:

I thought this airspace issue was settled several (25+??) years ago when KS (and other states) that did not allow liquor by the drink was attempting to force the airlines to NOT serve liquor that way when aircraft were in "KS" airspace.  IIRC, it went to the Supreme Court and it was found the states did NOT own the airspace. But then again, my memory gets worse as I gets older. — John Stricker "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to be a vegetarian"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You gotta love that kind of interpretation.  As we know, California doesn’t HAVE any airspace.  The airspace belongs to the Feds.  The reach of California "should not" extend beyond the surface of a California runway. Nevertheless, I would also recommend not overflying California in a new, Oregon-based airplane. If you buy it in Oregon you need to keep it there for 90days and not fly into California airspace during that time.  You will also need to show that you purchased the plane for use outside California.  The Franchise Tax Board will try to collect the tax anyway and you will have to prove that you were in compliance with the exemption.  There is a guy with a new Gulfstream who did this, and the Franchise Tax Board says that he overflew the northwest corner of California, during the 90 day period, on a trip from Oregon to Hawaii.  There are attorneys who specialize in this kind of thing, and if you are buying an expensive plane you might want to contact one.  I have a friend who just bought a Citation X and he is keeping it in Oregon for 90 days and will then move it to Idaho, which has no personal property tax. It is a pain in the ass but he is saving over a million dollars in taxes. Mike MU-2 I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? What if you bought the plane under a LLC corporation and set up the corporation in Oregan???? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)… Before you buy.

Response:

[Standard disclaimer : I don't really know anything about anything]. In addition to the below, you would: A. Need to FLY it outside CA airspace (it says "stored or used") for over half the hobbs time in those six months.

Good thing about the disclaimer, because this is not true at all. The tax regulations don’t say anything at all about hobbs time.  They say what I said they said:    When the property is purchased outside of California    and is first functionally used outside of California then enters    California within the first 90 days after purchase, it can still    be regarded as not having been purchased for use in California    if it is used or stored one-half or more of the time outside of    California during the six-month period immediately following its    entry into this state. What I would add, that isn’t stated here but is clarified in the BOE Regulation 1620, is that the one-half of six months period is measured in days (not in hobbs hours). Finally, my previous post did point out the importance of flying the airplane (using it) outside of California in order to rebut the presumption that it is simply in storage for shipment. B. You would need to have very detailed and precise logs and ways of backing them up. One such way is to keep ALL receipts, and generate a receipt to match every single takeoff and landing during the six months period (for example, buy some gas both after you land and before you take off).

I don’t think it’s necessary to bury the tax collector in paper; just build a good strong case where all the numbers add up.  Keeping a detailed flight log would be a good first step, accounting for all tach/hobbs time, points of departure and arrival, fuel burn, etc.  This flight log can be correlated to maintenance records, pilot logs, and fuel receipts to confirm its accuracy and truthfulness.  If you take some flight instruction in your presumably new airplane, that is good common sense as well as an alibi. It’s probably easier to prove that you never brought the plane into California within 90 days of purchase than it is to prove where the plane was located every single day during a six-month period following its first entry into California. You very well may need to defend your logs. Some may be "challanged" and you may loose some of those days and/or hours, so keeping an extra margin is probably a good idea. Think about it this way: if you don’t have a way to prove where the plane was on a certain date, assume that CA will consider it to have been in CA. If the plane just sits somewhere for two weeks, you would need some way of proving that it was really there (and that you didn’t fly it to CA and use it there between two receipts with the same dates). Some certificate or legal declaration from an FBO that is hangering the plane may be a way of proving that.

Right, that’s why I suggested maybe operating the plane in Oregon for "three or four months" instead of the prescribed 90 days. Or alternatively if you cannot prove where the plane WAS on a given day, you may still be able to prove with certainty where it was WAS NOT, namely California.  You can do this with tach readings at confirmed points on confirmed dates, and prove that flying time simply would not allow the airplane to reach California in the intervening period. There is a company called "Associated Sales Tax Consultants" that helps with this paperwork. Pretty expensive, but much cheaper than 8.25% on many newer airplanes.

Flat rate of $5000, IIRC.

Response:

I agree, but it is an interesting example of how aggressive the FTB is… Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You gotta love that kind of interpretation.  As we know, California doesn’t HAVE any airspace.  The airspace belongs to the Feds.  The reach of California "should not" extend beyond the surface of a California runway. Nevertheless, I would also recommend not overflying California in a new, Oregon-based airplane. If you buy it in Oregon you need to keep it there for 90days and not fly into California airspace during that time.  You will also need to show that you purchased the plane for use outside California.  The Franchise Tax Board will try to collect the tax anyway and you will have to prove that you were in compliance with the exemption.  There is a guy with a new Gulfstream who did this, and the Franchise Tax Board says that he overflew the northwest corner of California, during the 90 day period, on a trip from Oregon to Hawaii.  There are attorneys who specialize in this kind of thing, and if you are buying an expensive plane you might want to contact one.  I have a friend who just bought a Citation X and he is keeping it in Oregon for 90 days and will then move it to Idaho, which has no personal property tax. It is a pain in the ass but he is saving over a million dollars in taxes. Mike MU-2 I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? What if you bought the plane under a LLC corporation and set up the corporation in Oregan???? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)… Before you buy.

Response:

You gotta love that kind of interpretation.  As we know, California doesn’t HAVE any airspace.  The airspace belongs to the Feds.  The reach of California "should not" extend beyond the surface of a California runway. Nevertheless, I would also recommend not overflying California in a new, Oregon-based airplane. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you buy it in Oregon you need to keep it there for 90days and not fly into California airspace during that time.  You will also need to show that you purchased the plane for use outside California.  The Franchise Tax Board will try to collect the tax anyway and you will have to prove that you were in compliance with the exemption.  There is a guy with a new Gulfstream who did this, and the Franchise Tax Board says that he overflew the northwest corner of California, during the 90 day period, on a trip from Oregon to Hawaii.  There are attorneys who specialize in this kind of thing, and if you are buying an expensive plane you might want to contact one.  I have a friend who just bought a Citation X and he is keeping it in Oregon for 90 days and will then move it to Idaho, which has no personal property tax.  It is a pain in the ass but he is saving over a million dollars in taxes. Mike MU-2 I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? What if you bought the plane under a LLC corporation and set up the corporation in Oregan???? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)… Before you buy.

Response:

I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)…

There are legal ways of avoiding the sales tax but they are not that simple. Taking into account that I’m not a tax lawyer and this advice is probably worth exactly what you paid for it: If an airplane is based out of state for 90 days after its first operational use after purchase, then there’s no sales tax due. There’s another clause which allows the same if (I think) 60 of the first 180 days of operational use are out of state. If you buy a plane cheaply and then modify it, if the plane is brought into state within 50 days then the modifications are assumed to be for use in state and tax is due. If you bring it in and then modify it then I assume the tax is only due on the initial price. There are businesses that charge lots of money for setting up deals whereby you can avoid the sales tax so there’s more to the nuances than this but this is the general idea. The tax folk up in Sacramento are very good about answering questions and they know what they are talking about unlike me . Guess who’s currently negotiating to buy an airplane … *                 The Ki Aikido Center                      * *                    (510) 796-6754                         * *              http://www.ki-aikido.com                     * *                     DHC-1 N68031                          *

Response:

If you buy it in Oregon you need to keep it there for 90days and not fly into California airspace during that time.  You will also need to show that you purchased the plane for use outside California.  The Franchise Tax Board will try to collect the tax anyway and you will have to prove that you were in compliance with the exemption.  There is a guy with a new Gulfstream who did this, and the Franchise Tax Board says that he overflew the northwest corner of California, during the 90 day period, on a trip from Oregon to Hawaii.  There are attorneys who specialize in this kind of thing, and if you are buying an expensive plane you might want to contact one.  I have a friend who just bought a Citation X and he is keeping it in Oregon for 90 days and will then move it to Idaho, which has no personal property tax.  It is a pain in the ass but he is saving over a million dollars in taxes. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? What if you bought the plane under a LLC corporation and set up the corporation in Oregan???? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)… Before you buy.

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[Standard disclaimer : I don't really know anything about anything]. In addition to the below, you would: A. Need to FLY it outside CA airspace (it says      "stored or used") for over half the hobbs time      in those six months. B. You would need to have very detailed and precise      logs and ways of backing them up. One such way is      to keep ALL receipts, and generate a receipt      to match every single takeoff and landing during the      six months period (for example, buy some gas      both after you land and before you take off).      You very well may need to defend your logs. Some      may be "challanged" and you may loose some of those      days and/or hours, so keeping an extra margin is      probably a good idea.      Think about it this way: if you don’t have a way to      prove where the plane was on a certain date, assume      that CA will consider it to have been in CA. If the plane      just sits somewhere for two weeks, you would need some      way of proving that it was really there (and that you didn’t fly      it to CA and use it there between two receipts with the      same dates). Some certificate or legal declaration from an FBO      that is hangering the plane may be a way of proving that. There is a company called "Associated Sales Tax Consultants" that helps with this paperwork. Pretty expensive, but much cheaper than 8.25% on many newer airplanes. — Gil.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t suppose there is any legal way around the 7.75% sales tax in Northern California when buying  a plane. What if you bought a plane in Oregan and hangered it there for a month? What if you bought the plane under a LLC corporation and set up the corporation in Oregan???? Perhaps the best way around it is to buy an old run out plane pay less for the purchase (and taxes) and then spend a bunch on maintenance bring it up (since labor isn’t taxes in California)… Funny you should ask.  I just happened to receive a friendly letter on Friday from the California State Board of Equalization, a.k.a. the Sales Tax Collector. 1.  The exact tax rate depends on the county where you live (or maybe it’s where you base the plane, if not in your home county).  Where you are it may be 7.75%.  In Santa Clara County it’s 8.25%. 2.  If you bought the airplane in Oregon and hangared it there a month, you would lose a month of use of your airplane and then you would be due for Use Tax instead of Sales Tax, but it would still be the same tax rate. 3.  OK, I am originally from Oregon, and proud of it.  You’re going to have to start spelling it with two "O’s" if I’m going to help you here.  If I meet you in person, I will also test you for proper pronunciation, but I digress….  Buying the plane as an Oregon corporation won’t save you from the California tax man because it’s all about where the plane is "used or stored," not who owns it or where it’s registered.  They can find you through ramp checks, tie-down leases, and a bunch of other ways, and when they do you’ll get hit for penalties on top of the unpaid taxes. 4.  Paying sales or use tax on an airplane really sucks because you can never recover that expense when you sell the airplane.  Divide that by the number of hours you fly the plane and you’re really increasing the cost of flying it.  If I fly my airplane until TBO, the sales/use tax would be worth $10/hr, and there weren’t a lot of hours on the engine when I bought it. What you need is an exemption.  California offers five major exemptions from use tax: A.  Common Carrier.  Incorporate as a Part 135 Operator and buy the plane for your use in carriage of paying customers.  Preferably interstate flights. B.  Interstate and Foreign Commerce.  Declare nothing and smuggle drugs for a living.  Just kidding. C.  Family Transaction.  Have relatives in Oregon buy the plane and then they can sell it to you. E.  Gift.  Have relatives in Oregon buy the plane and then just give it to you. D.  What happened to D?  Oh yeah.  "Not Purchased for Use in California." This is a good one.  You should look at this one really closely. According to the State of California:     If an aircraft is purchased outside of California, is first     functionally used outside of California, and is used outside     of California for over 90 days from the date of purchase to     the date of first entry into California, it is regarded as not     having been purchased for use in California.  Shipping time or     time of storage for shipment to California is excluded from the     90 days.  When the property is purchased outside of California     and is first functionally used outside of California then enters     California within the first 90 days after purchase, it can still     be regarded as not having been purchased for use in California     if it is used or stored one-half or more of the time outside of     California during the six-month period immediately following its     entry into this state. So back to your original idea.  What if you bought an airplane in Oregon and based it there for three or four months?  What if you actually went to visit it frequently to keep the oil moving, and thereby rebutted any presumption that it was merely in "storage for shipment to California"?  How much would that be worth to you?

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Question:

The XFRML website has to be required reading, for any CPA or managerial accountant, at the middle level or above.  The website speaks for itself. It is very, very informative and you could easily spend a solid week, before you really understand what a far-reaching technology this is, and the changes that will result. http://www.xfrml.org/ http://www.xfrml.org/defaultFRAME.htm http://www.xfrml.org/Library/CreateOnceRenderMany.pdf AICPA’s XFRML working group is meeting this week in Redmond/Seattle area.  This is a project worth watching, and learning from. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML accounting, web ledger, ASP, GL Dialtone, whatever.

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I am trying to grasp some of the basic concepts. Do you see XFRML as a logical part of XML-tensive systems, or something that can work with most systems from Quickbooks to Great Plains to Peoplesoft? Thanks,  - Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The XFRML website has to be required reading, for any CPA or managerial accountant, at the middle level or above.  The website speaks for itself. It is very, very informative and you could easily spend a solid week, before you really understand what a far-reaching technology this is, and the changes that will result. http://www.xfrml.org/ http://www.xfrml.org/defaultFRAME.htm http://www.xfrml.org/Library/CreateOnceRenderMany.pdf AICPA’s XFRML working group is meeting this week in Redmond/Seattle area.  This is a project worth watching, and learning from. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML accounting, web ledger, ASP, GL Dialtone, whatever.

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Question:

12-22-98 Mississippi Child Support Payments Simplified – (STATEWIDE) — Thousands of Mississippi employers will soon face less paperwork involving workers who owe child support payments. The Department of Human Services says it hopes to have a centralized location operational by the first of the year to receive withholding payments from employers and to make sure the money is properly forwarded. The service will mean companies will only have to submit one monthly check instead of sending payments to various county welfare offices.

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Wisconsin is doing this as well.  They spent millions of dollars on a system which has repeatedly failed just on the accounting end of things, and now they want to run the cash through it as well.  We’ll see how smoothly this works. A listing of some of the issues faced in the past 3 months in testing are here: http://www.dwd.state.wi.us/notespub/DWDWebMa/329a_536.htm Ultimately what it looks like is there are 1,400 NCPs still being charged incorrectly, and over 5,000 who have been in the past month.  Now that is only 1% of cases loaded into the database, according to their records.  But I still would not want to be one of the 5,000+ individuals who have to fight the system to get these errors corrected, with jailtime hanging over their heads for noncompliance. — —– spamblock?  not-so-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -12-22-98 Mississippi Child Support Payments Simplified – (STATEWIDE) — Thousands of Mississippi employers will soon face less paperwork involving workers who owe child support payments. The Department of Human Services says it hopes to have a centralized location operational by the first of the year to receive withholding payments from employers and to make sure the money is properly forwarded. The service will mean companies will only have to submit one monthly check instead of sending payments to various county welfare offices.

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Question:

I agree with Rae.  No matter how rotten or discouraged  you feel, NEVER back down or get intimidated.  It wasn’t until my lawyer filed suit that my employer sat up and took real notice.  But it’s been over a year now and they still delay – picking apart anything that they can find that might disqualify my claim.  The latest pick was that in 1991, on this date,in fact that I saw a psychiatrist.  I had just happened to mention to him that I had tried to fill in as a special needs aid at the local school one day.  It didn’t work out because of pain and fatigue – I just couldn’t make it.  Well this showed up in my report to the insurance company and now the lawyers for the employer want me to explain myself and give details about returning to "work".   Well, I guess if they are going to be that way, I will have a little bit longer to wait to negotiate settlement.  In one more month, my specialist will have the results of my LP and bloodwork.  They are now lying in wait for this.  It does get us down sometimes but if you know you are right, hang in there.  Lorelle

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At the begining of May I’m suppose to start partial long term disability through the insurance company at my job. I have been on short term partial disability (3 months) in which my employer has payed my full salary, since I’m a salaried employee. Now I’m waiting/worrying am I going to be accepted? The insurance company has paided claims for employees for a few months, but I am the first to apply for long term disability (15 hours per week). Hope I don’t have to get a lawyer! Cathy, Arizona Lorelle Gilbert <Richard_Gilb…@gsacrd.ab.ca> wrote in article <334DB6A0.1…@gsacrd.ab.ca>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I agree with Rae.  No matter how rotten or discouraged  you feel, > NEVER back down or get intimidated.  It wasn’t until my lawyer filed > suit that my employer sat up and took real notice.  But it’s been over > a year now and they still delay – picking apart anything that they can > find that might disqualify my claim.  

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Hi         I’ve been on short term. I recieve 50% pay on this and after 6 months I get long term at 60% pay. I guess I’m rather lucky I work for a hospital in the states. And my employeer said I would have a job waiting even if it takes months for me to recover. I’ve been out of work for 2months. I am checked out with my primary care doctor every month to see if I go back to work. I hope soon! Keep up with the paperwork. Learn all you can about the insurance. make phone calls. You need info to get the benifits. Ask questions.  GOOD LUCK!!! On 9 Apr 1997 22:20:01 GMT, "Sean Edgeworth" <Seane…@indigo.ie> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi all, >    I am interested in corresponding with anyone who is in the above situation >and their experiences with the insurance companys.I have availed of this >because of my MS and have no conection with any insurance company.There >were upcoming redundancys in my job but I was given no indication as to >whether I would be included or not and the company would only state that >there was a job for me there at present and no indications or guarantees >for the future.I am worried about depending >on this as a source of income long term and would be interested in learning >about >any experiences,good or bad.I was lurking for about a year while I >frantically alternated between whether to claim or not.I was hoping to see >some posts on it,unfortunately there were none.It`s too late now as I have >gone through the process and it was a scarey business.I was in a bad way >with the stress of it all and there was no advice available,just shoulder >shrugging and blank stares.I felt like I was going mad again at times,or >even rude for asking such questions.The MS society was of no help and they >ran away from the topic.I wanted to continue working but was not able to in >the end as a result of the uncertainty.I had a really good job by Irish >standards and hated loosing it.There were other people in the company (1800 >employees) who had MS but personnell refused to make repersentation to them >on my behalf to ask them their advice.I did not know who they were as they >were in a different section of the plant.If this is an unsuitable topic for >the public domain just let me know and I will give up. >                    Regds Sean

Response:

Hi Carol,         thanks for the reply,I was working fulltime when I applied.I was all messed up at the time and could not seem to think straight.I went to a solicitor in the end,gave him the details and asked him to provide me with a comprehensive assesment of the facts. I used him purely for analysing my predicament and had no thoughts of legal action.I felt that he would be used to assesing such dilemmas and did not trust my own judgement based on the fact that I was too close to the situation to make an objective assesment. He provided me with a clear, consice report with a list of options,possible risks and a final reccomendation.he was a real help in my situation. I went back to the neuro twice to be sure that there was no prior evidence of pre-existing illness,he assured me that there was not.I then got him to write to my GP and detail his assesment of my illness.I said I felt he was too expensive for the less significant treatments.I then went to my GP and demanded that he read the letter out loud.He agreed to do so reluctantly.While the neuro insisted that there was no way of saying what my future was,in the letter to my GP he was a little more frank."I am concerned that Seans illness is of a more progressive nature" were the words used I think.I felt a little devious for doing that but I needed some indication of my prognosis.The neuro was following what he felt was the best course of approach and I respect him for that,but I had more to deal with than the immediate consequences of the disease.I was more concerned with the effect it would have on my wife and family and felt it very hard to deal with not being able to provide for them. I really found this the most stressfull aspect of diagnosis and spent many nights/mornings going over and over the details in my mind;usually sitting in the kitchen in my dressingown. When I said in work that i was no longer capable of continuing they were not terribly pleased and gave me 3 months off to be sure I wanted to do that.In the meantime I had started to deteriorate and most days was very ragged in my walking and general health.At the end of the 3 months I was no better and I opted to go.I had to stay out for a further 3 months for the insurance to kick in.After 6 months I was sent two forms to be filled out,one for my neuro and one for myself.I got the neuro to fill out his first and I then completed mine.Some of the questions were a little scarey at the time,e.g When do you expect the claimant to return to work…….3months……..6months…….1year……..other stating when.The neuro wrote "Never". I really felt the pressure when I handed over the forms,and felt I was shutting the doors on employment  and doing it myself.Its a hard thing to do when you have busted a gut for 32 years to reach a level of skill and competancy,to then have to bin it all.Yet I had to be gratefull because many do not have the cover I had, so it was a strange emotion.I guess its a case of always striving for further advancment,and finding it hard to accept less than you expected.I hope I do not upset anyone who is less fortunate,I just want to help anyone in a similar predicament.The application seems to have gone through o.k. I have not been contacted by the insurance company yet.They are paying me 67% of my final years salary indexed by 5% each year.I believe that this is similar to most of these disability schemes and once the diagnosis is made then they do not tend to investigate them unless they are alerted to some evidence of a previous illness.There is no evidence in my case thank God. I was told that "no one could have realistically known prior to now that you had MS so therefor you are covered by the policy.MS is a very difficult disease to diagnose and a whole list of other possibile diseases and conditions must be eliminated first.MRI changes that somewhat and if there are obvious lesions and scar tissue then it can be made with less testing.That is what these policys are for,that is your reason for buying them in the first place,they are not for charity". It does worry me now when I see people begging for a diagnosis without considering the implications,though I never thought there was anything that seriously wrong with me when I first went to the doctor.Things always seem clearer in hindsight . I just wanted to know what was wrong, get it fixed, and get back to where I was before the symptoms started.Depressed,run down, anemia, unfit, all in your head,hypocondriac, middle age,mid life crices ,anything, but nothing serious. It was only when he said to me "your results are consistent with Multiple Sclerosis" that I thought,"what the  hell am I going to do now for a liveing".If you are not diagnosed then you are not ill,that is the bottom line.If you are diagnosed,then when that diagnosis is made the train pulls out of that station.That is not to say that there are not plenty of other options,but that one is not a hot prospect. I hope this is of use to someone out there,it is only ment to be of help and written with that in mind.                         Retired and tired,                                 Sean

Response:

Hi Sean, I’ve been on a combination of Social Security and long term disability through my employer for 7 years now.   I went back to work for a year after being diagnosed but the stress and fatigue got to be too much.  On the advice of family and doctors, I went on disability.  Now I worked in a small company, an orthopaedic practice with about 30 employees. Of course my decision wasn’t too hard to make, especially after the office manager informed me that if I missed too much more time, then I might not have a job to come back to(I’d missed a week in a years time due directly to my MS). I don’t know if you’ve thought about SS or not, but it has worked well for me.  I was only 32 at the time all this happened. If I can be of further assistance, please e-mail me. Marcy

Response:

Sean, My experience with LTD through my employer is very similar to Carol’s, except that I applied for benefits (and was accepted on the first try) before I went to part time status. I was, however (as Carol probably was too) turned down for SSDI because I make more than $500 per month.  I knew that they would turn me down when I applied, but my LTD requires me to apply or they reduce my benefits. Z – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Carol Roberts <Qrobe…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >This topic is very suitable for this newsgroup.  I think I was lucky.  I >worked as a certified public accountant (CPA) with a small regional >firm. They had some ability to be flexible.  I never paid any attention >to the disability plan that was part of the employee package until I >realized that I would no longer qualify to participate in the plan the >next year due to the decreased hours I was working.  I had gone down to >10-15 per week.  So the idea came to me, maybe I qualify for benefits. >Everyone cautioned me that I would have to appeal at least once. But I >went ahead anyway. I filled out forms, doctors filled out forms, my >employer filled out forms.  We put them all in one envelope and 10 days >later I received a letter stating what my benefits were, and how much >they were reduced for wages earned. ( each dollar earned reduced >benefits by fifty cents) And that even if I earned too much to receive >benefits, as long as the illness persisted I would not have to reapply >at a later time when I could not work full-time again.  I worked for >another year before I was let go because the cognitive problems made my >work very unreliable – sometimes it was trully garbage.  When I went on >full disability the private insurance required that I apply for public >disability (SSDI), and the social security benefits offset the private >benefit almost totally.  But if I should ever be able to work enough to >lose the SSDI, the private benefit will increase accordingly. >Again, I feel very lucky because both times I got approved for benefits >on the first try.  I think I was very clear about how my life was so >different than it was before I got sick.  And I don’t even have a >definite diagnosis of MS.  My benefits are received for possible MS and >major depression.  Hope this info is what you were looking for. >Carol Roberts

http://www.mindspring.com/~cczimmer/ +————————————————————————+ + Carolyn C. Zimmer       | "I’ve been warped by the rain,               | + Duluth, GA              |  driven by the snow, I’m drunk and dirty,    | + cczim…@mindspring.com |  don’t you know, But I’m still…willin’"    | + STANDARD DISCLAIMER     |                               Lowell George  | +————————————————————————+

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sean Edgeworth wrote: > Hi all, >         I am interested in corresponding with anyone who is in the above situation > and their experiences with the insurance companys.I have availed of this > because of my MS and have no conection with any insurance company.There > were upcoming redundancys in my job but I was given no indication as to > whether I would be included or not and the company would only state that > there was a job for me there at present and no indications or guarantees > for the future.I am worried about depending > on this as a source of income long term and would be interested in learning > about > any experiences,good or bad.I was lurking for about a year while I > frantically alternated between whether to claim or not.I was hoping to see > some posts on it,unfortunately there were none.It`s too late now as I have > gone through the process and it was a scarey business.I was in a bad way > with the stress of it all and there was no advice available,just shoulder > shrugging and blank stares.I felt like I was going mad again at times,or > even rude for asking such questions.The MS society was of no help and they > ran away from the topic.I wanted to continue working but was not able to in > the end as a result of the uncertainty.I had a really good job by Irish > standards and hated loosing it.There were other people in the company (1800 > employees) who had MS but personnell refused to make repersentation to them > on my behalf to ask them their advice.I did not know who they were as they > were in a different section of the plant.If this is an unsuitable topic for > the public domain just let me know and I will give up. >                         Regds Sean

Sean, This topic is very suitable for this newsgroup.  I think I was lucky.  I worked as a certified public accountant (CPA) with a small regional firm. They had some ability to be flexible.  I never paid any attention to the disability plan that was part of the employee package until I realized that I would no longer qualify to participate in the plan the next year due to the decreased hours I was working.  I had gone down to 10-15 per week.  So the idea came to me, maybe I qualify for benefits. Everyone cautioned me that I would have to appeal at least once. But I went ahead anyway. I filled out forms, doctors filled out forms, my employer filled out forms.  We put them all in one envelope and 10 days later I received a letter stating what my benefits were, and how much they were reduced for wages earned. ( each dollar earned reduced benefits by fifty cents) And that even if I earned too much to receive benefits, as long as the illness persisted I would not have to reapply at a later time when I could not work full-time again.  I worked for another year before I was let go because the cognitive problems made my work very unreliable – sometimes it was trully garbage.  When I went on full disability the private insurance required that I apply for public disability (SSDI), and the social security benefits offset the private benefit almost totally.  But if I should ever be able to work enough to lose the SSDI, the private benefit will increase accordingly. Again, I feel very lucky because both times I got approved for benefits on the first try.  I think I was very clear about how my life was so different than it was before I got sick.  And I don’t even have a definite diagnosis of MS.  My benefits are received for possible MS and major depression.  Hope this info is what you were looking for. Carol Roberts

Response:

Question:

At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are they worth it?

They give almost the same aero advantage of a disk ( some say better because of the convex shape, rather than flat as most disks), but still retain the soft ride of a spoked wheel. As for advantage per dollar, the only thing better is a clip on aero bar. Bruce Platt

Response:

               I have been using one of these for years and I can’t imagine why anyone would pay the high price of a "real" disc when the aero effect is the same or better. If i’m missing something someone please let me know.                                                                               Steve F.

Response:

              I have been using one of these for years and I can’t imagine why anyone would pay the high price of a "real" disc when the aero effect is the same or better. If i’m missing something someone please let me know.                                                                  

[Cwhere near a ture disk in performance. I personally use a cover of sorts. I use a J-Disc. Which I think is the ultimate comprimise, without comprimising anything. You see the major faults of a cover is the exposed lip (not all covers but the most popular [A) around the rim that can catch air, and the added weight. The J-Disc fixes both of these problems at a price about only $40 more than a wheel and cove. A J-Disc is a spoked wheel with a milar srink wraped cover., THe cover fits directly over the wheel, a light weight, very well built, easilt trueable, and extreamly high quality wheel with a ultra light cover on top. A 700c tubular wheel weighs about 700 grams (sans tire and freewheel) I ahve had one for 5 years, when I changed over to 8spd I just sent th e wheel back to the company to have it comnverted to 8spd for on;y $40... better than any bike shop(inc parts.). I also decided to have the wheel recoverd, because I have a new bike, and I also had ridden almost 1000 miles on the wheel in the last 5 years so it was getting kinda ragged (as would any cover) and I just had them recoverit, for $90 or so I can't really rember because I had a few other little goodies added to it. But all in ll I got a new wheel after 5 years for anly 150! can't beat that. or the  weight. As for other wheels if you have a couple hundred to spend on wheels go for the ft. wheel first... it hits the wind first, and offers the most time reduction. Zipp makes some really hot wheels the new midv is hot! ---arr---

Response:

: At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it? : They give almost the same aero advantage of a disk ( some say better : because of the convex shape, rather than flat as most disks), but still Is there data for this? I haven’t seen any data on covers.  However, people that I trust have told me that they have pluses and minuses.  Many of them fail to seal adequately near the rim.  Air can get inside these covers, making a lovely noise and defeating much of the aero advantage.  I’ve also heard that covers which stretch fabric over the spokes lose much of the potential advantage because the surface is not smooth and because the individual panels, being flexible, can act like little sails in a crosswind. I don’t know how important these considerations are, but they seem reasonable to me. Dave LaPorte U. of Minn.

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: I have seen in various mail-order catalogs (Nashbar, : Performance, Colorado, Excel) disc wheel covers.  They all : seem to be the same, but with different house brands on : them: they are all around sixty bucks, weight a bit less : than 250 grams, and clip onto wheels over the spokes (even : the blurb in the different catalogs is pretty much the : same; presumably one OEM makes them).  The idea is that : they turn your spoked wheel into (sort of) a disk wheel. : Has anyone tried these?  At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it?  Are they more than cosmetic?  Thanks for : any advice. : Steve I purchased the UNI cover from Colorado Cyclist last summer, and it made a very noticable difference. The complaint of how well the cover seals against the rim can be avoided by using a regular box shaped rim, not an aero, and taking your time in fitting the hoop. I used it in only one race, a biathlon, and I passed 27 people in a 20 mile bike segment, plus was able to hammer in my top gear for a real long streach of road, something I never was able to do before the wheel cover. If your are on a budget (Who isn’t?) and already have a rim, get the cover. Tom Roehr

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….Is there data for this?….

I believe bicycling ran a test on them and other aero devices a couple of years ago, check your back issues, my wife threw mine away, anyway  my cover seals pretty well and there is a noticable improvement over not using them, but  I guess thats why Baskin- Robbins makes 31 flavors. Bruce Platt

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: At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it? : They give almost the same aero advantage of a disk ( some say better : because of the convex shape, rather than flat as most disks), but still Is there data for this? I haven’t seen any data on covers.  However, people that I trust have told me that they have pluses and minuses….

At least in the early days of covers, I saw more than one or two that came unclipped during a race.  There sure isn’t much of an advantage when the now loose disc cover is rubbing against your brakes and stays Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have seen in various mail-order catalogs (Nashbar, : Performance, Colorado, Excel) disc wheel covers.  They all : seem to be the same, but with different house brands on : them: they are all around sixty bucks, weight a bit less : than 250 grams, and clip onto wheels over the spokes (even : the blurb in the different catalogs is pretty much the : same; presumably one OEM makes them).  The idea is that : they turn your spoked wheel into (sort of) a disk wheel. : Has anyone tried these?  At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it?  Are they more than cosmetic?  Thanks for : any advice. : Steve

I purchased a CH-AERO cover last Summer from Excel sports.  I believe Performance also now carries them.  The difference between this product and the Uni-Disc is the CH-AERO is a one piece thin plastic lens shaped cover.  To install you just remove your casette or freewheel and pop it on with 8 plastic screws.  The disc fits very snugly to the rim and air is further kept out by a small layer of foam.  It is quiet, looks like a "real" disc wheel, and fast.  The only drawback is weight.  It weighs approx 450gms so you dont want to race it on a hilly course.  The first time I used it on a mostly flat course I took off 2 minutes  on a 20K time trial. In short I highly recomend it.  If your thinking about adding a cover give it a look. Happy training, Mike

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                         I’ve had my wheel cover,(Nashbar), installed constantly, for both training & racing for over 5 years with never a problem.                                                                                                Steve Fredericks

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Before I would do that, I would get a JDF for my front wheel! Unfortunatly, my birthday isn’t until August…

I didn’t mention this before since we were talking about rear wheels, but the front wheel is moer imprtant than the rear to be aero. —arr—

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        I would just like to thank everyone who has sent me or posted a reply to ‘Uh, Vegetarian?’ in the last week.  I have recieved a lot of useful information, and I have been putting it to good use.  I have subscribed to rst for about 2 months now, and all the sage advice that a beginning triathlete like me can use is ever so helpful!         Basically I just want to thank all the people who have helped me grow mentally by hooking me up with Tri-info.  Special thanks goes to Mr. Marty Miller, for initially helping me out with my many, many questions and teaching me how to enjoy running.  Thanks, Marty!  There are several others users who have helped me (too numerouse to name) and I really appreciate it.   Scott Wilson

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I purchased a CH-AERO cover last Summer from Excel sports.  I believe Performance also now carries them.  The difference between this product and the Uni-Disc is the CH-AERO is a one piece thin plastic lens shaped cover.  To install you just remove your casette or freewheel and pop it on with 8 plastic screws.  The disc fits very snugly to the rim and air is further kept out by a small layer of foam.  It is quiet, looks like a "real" disc wheel, and fast.  The only drawback is weight.  It weighs approx 450gms so you dont want to race it on a hilly course.  The first time I used it on a mostly flat course I took off 2 minutes  on a 20K time trial. In short I highly recomend it.  If your thinking about adding a cover give it a look. Happy training, Mike

Re Soft Disc Wheel Covers…. I was very skeptical about disc wheel covers, and began my own testing on a flat, out-and-back 10 mile time trial course that is used between May and September.  I rode with and without the cover, switching every other week for at least 5 times each.  After accounting for wind conditions, biking when it was 103 degrees one day, etc, I found out that the disc wheel did reduce my time by about 30 seconds (my ave. 24.5 – 25.5 mph). A friend who had used one for a few years (who is a faster rider) thought he also rode 30 seconds faster with the disc wheel on the 10 mile course. If I were able to ride at 30 mph, I imagine the wheel would benefit me even more (since air resistance increases exponentially with increase in speed).  However, I think changing my posture to ride in a more aerodynamic position probably helps more than using the disc wheel.   Also, aero bars easily give a 1.5 mph increase in speed.   Any other experiences out there?  I’m interested in knowing.  Supposedly some of the initial "testing" of disc wheels was done at our university (WSU) and WSUs name was used in many "old" ads out there.

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If I were able to ride at 30 mph, I imagine the wheel would benefit me even more (since air resistance increases exponentially with increase in speed).  However, I think changing my posture to ride in a more aerodynamic position probably helps more than using the disc wheel.   Also, aero bars easily give a 1.5 mph increase in speed.  

[Aship between speed and drag of an object is directly propotional to the square of an objects speed. So at 30mph the benifates of an aerobar is roughly 1.5 times thatt of a rider doing 25mph. However, at very high speeds (such as decents) I have found the  covers tend to flap quite a bit and offered more drag than that of a more converntional wheel. I still contend that there are very few covers out there that can offer good, sound, sfe aerodyanics. Of the removable ones I would only considre using a lighte [CI ahve explaned what there are in previos messages) ---arr---

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I were able to ride at 30 mph, I imagine the wheel would benefit me even more (since air resistance increases exponentially with increase in speed).  However, I think changing my posture to ride in a more aerodynamic position probably helps more than using the disc wheel.   Also, aero bars easily give a 1.5 mph increase in speed.   [Aship between speed and drag of an object is directly propotional to the square of an objects speed. So at 30mph the benifates of an aerobar is roughly 1.5 times thatt of a rider doing 25mph. However, at very high speeds (such as decents) I have found the covers tend to flap quite a bit and offered more drag than that of a more converntional wheel. I still contend that there are very few covers out there that can offer good, sound, sfe aerodyanics. Of the removable ones I would only considre using a lighte [CI ahve explaned what there are in previos messages)

The drag is proportional to the square of the speed, the power is the speed times the drag.  So the power is proportional to the cube of the speed (assuming aero drag is the only significant force: reasonable at 30 mph, less reasonable at 25mph, fairly far off at 20mph).  In a flat TT, it is reasonable to assume constant rider power. However, let’s look at what that means to your speed (what else matters after all?). cd * speed^3 = power cd = coefficient of drag, ^ means raised to the power of Or speed = (power/cd) ^0.333333 Now suppose we change cd by some small factor delta, so that the new cd is cdp = cd *(1-delta) ie, if you reduce the overall cd (including the riders body and everything) by 5%, delta = 0.05. you will find that the following approximation is pretty accurate: speedp ~= speed * (1+delta/3) That is, our 5% reduction of cd gives a 1.67% increase in speed, regardless of the actual value of that speed. Now what affect does our approximation that all of the drag comes from aerodynamics have on the speed improvement? In this case, there are additional drag terms, using lower powers of speed (usually linear) that do not change when you change your aerodynamics.  The affect of this is that you will get a smaller speed improvement than the hoped for delta/3. — — S’later, Mike Locke

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