"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> writes: > Doug Anderson wrote: > > OK, this post made me smile! But as much as I don’t think especially > > highly of Dickens, I doubt that "Groundhog Day" will have the staying > > power of "A Christmas Carol!" > > Nevertheless, your theory is worth considering. 100+ years on, > > perhaps Dickens is more popular than Trollope because Dickens was > > better at marketing. Yet it still doesn’t explain the enduring > > popularity of Austen compared to her contemporaries (or even compared > > to Trollope). > Austen is a "chick" thing, Doug!
Another post that made me smile! Hey, I’m not trying to diss Jane Austen. I like her, and find her clever and amusing. I just think (Anthony) Trollope is on the neglected side and find him superior to most other 19th century British novelists (I’m counting Jane as 19th century, which is maybe stretching it). (I have a special place in my heart for George Eliot since although I’m not that crazy about the rest of her books, Middlemarch was my favorite book for a while. Otherwise I’d say Trollope is, to my taste, the best 19th century British novelist.)
Doug Anderson wrote: > Another post that made me smile! > Hey, I’m not trying to diss Jane Austen. I like her, and find her > clever and amusing. I just think (Anthony) Trollope is on the > neglected side and find him superior to most other 19th century > British novelists (I’m counting Jane as 19th century, which is maybe > stretching it).
You are missing the mastery of Austen, I’m afraid. Austen is all about empowerment. Her works are a clever antidote to the conduct books foisted on young women during her time. They read like a manual on how to be true to yourself, find happiness, retain your identity, *despite* the culture’s attempt to subsume you into a voiceless embodiment of purity and virtue whose fate is at the whims of society. Trollope is masterful in his own way, but he is more a cynical commentator recording the fate of young women in society. He empowers no one, and is actually quite depressing in his message, that no matter what you do or who you are or how you conduct yourself, there’s often a really bad ending if you’re a woman. Why does Austen endure with young women today? Well, go read my recent post about the art exhibit on Girl Culture we attended last night. Our popular culture still has an insidious conduct book, one that tells us that we must be pretty and thin and sexual in order to succeed. Austen is required reading for my girls, as I would like them to learn to empower themselves against this powerful cultural message. jen
"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> writes: > Doug Anderson wrote: > > Another post that made me smile! > > Hey, I’m not trying to diss Jane Austen. I like her, and find her > > clever and amusing. I just think (Anthony) Trollope is on the > > neglected side and find him superior to most other 19th century > > British novelists (I’m counting Jane as 19th century, which is maybe > > stretching it). > You are missing the mastery of Austen, I’m afraid.
I have to agree with that. > Austen is all about empowerment. Her works are a clever antidote to the > conduct books foisted on young women during her time. They read like a > manual on how to be true to yourself, find happiness, retain your > identity, *despite* the culture’s attempt to subsume you into a > voiceless embodiment of purity and virtue whose fate is at the whims of > society.
Well, if I believed the paragraph above, then I’d probably actively _dis_like Austen! I think she is about more than empowerment, though power clearly plays a large role in her dramas. > Trollope is masterful in his own way, but he is more a cynical > commentator recording the fate of young women in society. He empowers > no one, and is actually quite depressing in his message, that no matter > what you do or who you are or how you conduct yourself, there’s often a > really bad ending if you’re a woman.
Trollope is cynical, yes. But he is interested in more than the fate of young women, and in broader social issues. > Why does Austen endure with young women today? Well, go read my recent > post about the art exhibit on Girl Culture we attended last night. Our > popular culture still has an insidious conduct book, one that tells us > that we must be pretty and thin and sexual in order to succeed. Austen > is required reading for my girls, as I would like them to learn to > empower themselves against this powerful cultural message.
Well, I think Austen is good reading. But you have to be pretty and thin in her world too (although not explicitly sexual). The difference between her message and the one you are objecting to is that Austen’s world includes the possibility of young women exercising power. To follow up on Darren’s comparison of Dickens and "Desparate Housewives," maybe Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the Jane Austen of our day. Doug
Dr Nancy’s Sweetie <kil…@elvis.rowan.edu> writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Discussing the popularity of Charles Dickens, "Jen Shinypenny > <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com>" wrote: > > I think Dickens is more popular simply because it’s taught very early > > in the school systems. Tale of Two Cities and Great Expectations are > > on all the reading lists. > Whatever the merits of one’s writing, this is certainly a way for a > writer to endure. Many times there are things that affect success but > have little to do with the actual content of your work. > One is maintaining a tease. Dickens did well in his life in part > because he wrote soap operas. _The Old Curiosity Shop_, for example, > was originally published in monthy installments, and after people got > hooked on it they were clamoring to find out what was going to happen > next. It was just "Desperate Housewives" without the TV set. > Another thing is connecting to the cycle of the year. It worked out > well for Dickens that he wrote a Christmas story, with the result that > every year people think of it. > Imagine, if you will, that "Groundhog Day" had been called "Again and > Again", and Bill Murray had repeatedly relived March 20th, or something. > How often since then would anybody have thought of that movie? It > wasn’t a bad movie, but linking it to a holiday (a minor holiday, to be > sure, but one that is regularly mentioned) makes it stick in your head. > Every year, on Groundhog Day, you’re reminded of it. And even better, > Groundhog Day didn’t already have a movie, so they have the entire day > to themselves.
OK, this post made me smile! But as much as I don’t think especially highly of Dickens, I doubt that "Groundhog Day" will have the staying power of "A Christmas Carol!" Nevertheless, your theory is worth considering. 100+ years on, perhaps Dickens is more popular than Trollope because Dickens was better at marketing. Yet it still doesn’t explain the enduring popularity of Austen compared to her contemporaries (or even compared to Trollope).
It’s been said that Joseph Heller was going to name his book "Catch-16" but couldn’t think of any Catch-16 situations. (smirks) — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses. This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me
Doug Anderson wrote: > OK, this post made me smile! But as much as I don’t think especially > highly of Dickens, I doubt that "Groundhog Day" will have the staying > power of "A Christmas Carol!" > Nevertheless, your theory is worth considering. 100+ years on, > perhaps Dickens is more popular than Trollope because Dickens was > better at marketing. Yet it still doesn’t explain the enduring > popularity of Austen compared to her contemporaries (or even compared > to Trollope).
Austen is a "chick" thing, Doug! jen
Discussing the popularity of Charles Dickens, "Jen Shinypenny <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com>" wrote: > I think Dickens is more popular simply because it’s taught very early > in the school systems. Tale of Two Cities and Great Expectations are > on all the reading lists.
Whatever the merits of one’s writing, this is certainly a way for a writer to endure. Many times there are things that affect success but have little to do with the actual content of your work. One is maintaining a tease. Dickens did well in his life in part because he wrote soap operas. _The Old Curiosity Shop_, for example, was originally published in monthy installments, and after people got hooked on it they were clamoring to find out what was going to happen next. It was just "Desperate Housewives" without the TV set. Another thing is connecting to the cycle of the year. It worked out well for Dickens that he wrote a Christmas story, with the result that every year people think of it. Imagine, if you will, that "Groundhog Day" had been called "Again and Again", and Bill Murray had repeatedly relived March 20th, or something. How often since then would anybody have thought of that movie? It wasn’t a bad movie, but linking it to a holiday (a minor holiday, to be sure, but one that is regularly mentioned) makes it stick in your head. Every year, on Groundhog Day, you’re reminded of it. And even better, Groundhog Day didn’t already have a movie, so they have the entire day to themselves. Darren Provine ! kil…@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy "Does this sentence remind you of elephants?" — Douglas R Hofstadter
And I’ll join here. You cannot simply dismiss any supporter of Ozzie by prejudicial labels. You seem to be trying to earn some respect by challenging Ozzie. For most off us in the group, this just looks childish. Basically you sound like you are throwing a tantrum: "They won’t listen to my advice! they only listen to Ozzie."
Look here, Prozac (sorry but to me that was one of Wobbot’s funniest comment in a long and honourable career as a troll) I can dismiss you in any way I so choose. I neither seek or crave the ‘respect’ of the group. To me, you’re just a bunch of letters dancing on my lcd screen. If I started craving the respect of photons, I’d be in real trouble. Who said Ozz was the leader. He is the FAQ maintainer and as such is a trusted source. That’s part of his role, to present the collected wisdom of the group. That information is in full form in the FAQ. Most of the Quotes come directly from there and are often not from Ozzie, but from others in the group, past and present. Perhaps if you mellow out a little and hang around long enough, you might sometime provide a new insight that can be added to the FAQ.
Now you’re getting boring. Matter of fact, if you recall I supported the idea you suggested of adding some case studies type entries. How about taking a little of the time you spend attacking folks and put it into making a contribution? I’m not being sarcastic here. a section of case studies might be useful. Youy could start with Jake’s story and add some others. Like how did you prepare for you first marathon?
Didn’t you read my reply to your original suggestion? Why do you assume my response will be any different today? If you don’t want to be quoted, don’t post. It’s your decision, Roger.
Got me there. So what problem do you have when Oz often mentions the same thing in a more general: we are all an experiment of one? Oz doesn’t claim a greater voice than anoy one else here.
Oz posts a lot of good stuff. He also posts crap. It’s his inability to differentiate between the two – even after the error of his ways have been pointed out to him – that I find disconcerting. If your advice and Bill’s is ignored, it is most likely due to the troll posts you guys have done. If you want to be a trol, fine. If you want to be a regular, that’s fine too. But you’ll find little respect for regular posts when you also make troll posts.
Like we care. You miss the point. Both Wobbot and I troll. Occasionally, at moments of our choosing, we’ll offer sound advice. It doesn’t bother either of us whether you accept this advice or not. We do it ’cause we want to, not for your pleasure. ‘Respect’, ‘acceptance’, or ‘membership’ of this brotherhood is a matter of complete indifference to me. I’m here to practice writing, to play around with ideas and your heads, to praise the brave and adventurous, to pass on my experience, to ridicule the dumb, and to be challenged by superior minds. If you want to put it in one word, I’m here to LEARN. But not about running. Trolling is a very, very good way of learning. Goodnight, Edward. Sweet dreams. Roger.
In my limited experience of personality disorder – and I’m going back 15 years – bipolar personalities are usually incredibly engaging and highly intelligent, so I can fully understand why you’ve made this deduction, flawed though it may be.
I’m not sure where or from what book this info came from but surely it is wrong. Speaking from personal experinace none of the diagnosed bi-polars I met were "highly" intelligent nor engaging in a pleasant manor. Engaging yes, but after a few days, sometimes minutes I nearly always wanted to be disengaged from their presence. Meds however did make some dramatic differences. ~Matt OTOH it could just be me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Roger.
Of course, this inconsistency could also be described as "bipolar"…not that I am calling Roger "bipolar", but that his persona here certainly fits the dictionary definition of "having or marked by two mutually repellent forces or diametrically opposed natures or views…" (Merriam-Webster)
I always generalized his "tude" as mood swings but I think your bipolar, to borrow a British term, is spot on. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese
but I think your bipolar,
Doogie, As much as you’d like me to be bisexual, it ain’t happening dude. Let it go.. Bill R. @ @
Of course, this inconsistency could also be described as "bipolar"…not that I am calling Roger "bipolar", but that his persona here certainly fits the dictionary definition of "having or marked by two mutually repellent forces or diametrically opposed natures or views…" (Merriam-Webster) Is that a fair accounting, Roger?
I fly to the Shetland Isles for the day and when I arrive home I find that you unfaithful curs are half-way to having me certified. Wasn’t it one of your countrymen who said: "The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." Prizes will be awarded to the first person to correctly attribute this quote. In my limited experience of personality disorder – and I’m going back 15 years – bipolar personalities are usually incredibly engaging and highly intelligent, so I can fully understand why you’ve made this deduction, flawed though it may be. The tests required to confirm such a diagnosis are lengthy, intense and somewhat expensive. Were it possible to make a diagnosis on the basis of Usenet posts, you would have made a significant step forward in the world of Psychiatry. Perhaps you have? Try to accept inconsistencies in the world, Mike. Turn these variables to your advantage, use them to stimulate your own thought processes. Ideas and beliefs aren’t possessions – they’re interchangeable, upgradeable and disposable. Grab one you fancy, play with it for a few weeks, then choose another. There’s a new one passing by every few minutes. I had a nice run around Lerwick today, thank you. Roger.
I always generalized his "tude" as mood swings but I think your bipolar, to borrow a British term, is spot on.
Another unfaithful cur. Roger
F. Scott Fitzgarald. Mary
"The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to suction." Prizes will be awarded to the first person to correctly attribute this quote.
Bill Clinton
Doogie, As much as you’d like me to be bisexual, it ain’t happening dude. Let it go..
Like this Doogie!
F. Scott Fitzgarald.
1. Correct. 2. I KNEW it would be you. 3. You took 8 minutes. Slow. Roger.
My point was: you cannot straddle the fence. Be a troll or be a regular.
Roger would say, of course, that his inconsistency is his virtue. In other words, he could write something here but that doesn’t mean he believes it or you should believe it is what he means or is who he is. He can write something, but don’t quote him on it later, because he was just "being polite", and as such we should not take his words at face value. Roger believes it his right, nay, his duty to both be considered a troll and a regularly respected contributor. Of course, this inconsistency could also be described as "bipolar"…not that I am calling Roger "bipolar", but that his persona here certainly fits the dictionary definition of "having or marked by two mutually repellent forces or diametrically opposed natures or views…" (Merriam-Webster) Is that a fair accounting, Roger? Mike C P.S. And yes, I too have benefited from Ozzie’s advice in my nearly three years here on r.r.
My point was: you cannot straddle the fence. Be a troll or be a regular.
I can remember believing that. I also used to believe in Santa Claus. Life is no longer so simple…. Tim — It’s only Usenet. Nobody dies.
Roger, Don’t fall for Prozacs feeble attempt to reel you into "their world". He just wants your soul… Bill R. @ @
Roger, Don’t fall for Prozacs feeble attempt to reel you into "their world". He just wants your soul…
Yes, I’d be quite happy if Roger dropped his troll habbits. Seems his troll style posts have gotten fewer in number anyway. It will still take some time to gain the trust of the group, but it’s up to him. My point was: you cannot straddle the fence. Be a troll or be a regular. have a good day all. — Ed Prochak running: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ family: http://web.magicinterface.com/~collins — "Two roads diverged in a wood and I I took the one less travelled by and that has made all the difference." robert frost
[] There is no need to hammer away. There is no "range of sycophantic individuals who uncritically acclaim your(Ozzie’s) every word as ‘insightful’." There is no pedestal. Running, Roger, keeps me grounded. You are one of many who remind me that my feet are of clay. One involved himself in our conversation today. Didn’t you notice?
And I’ll join here. You cannot simply dismiss any supporter of Ozzie by prejudicial labels. You seem to be trying to earn some respect by challenging Ozzie. For most off us in the group, this just looks childish. Basically you sound like you are throwing a tantrum: "They won’t listen to my advice! they only listen to Ozzie." I can’t hold you personally responsible for the fawning crowd at your feet.
Oz, look there are fawning crowds here! I can hold you responsible for playing them so openly. If the role of a leader is to lead – not simply to ‘manage’ – then why aren’t you leading?
Who said Ozz was the leader. He is the FAQ maintainer and as such is a trusted source. That’s part of his role, to present the collected wisdom of the group. That information is in full form in the FAQ. Most of the Quotes come directly from there and are often not from Ozzie, but from others in the group, past and present. Perhaps if you mellow out a little and hang around long enough, you might sometime provide a new insight that can be added to the FAQ. Matter of fact, if you recall I supported the idea you suggested of adding some case studies type entries. How about taking a little of the time you spend attacking folks and put it into making a contribution? I’m not being sarcastic here. a section of case studies might be useful. Youy could start with Jake’s story and add some others. Like how did you prepare for you first marathon? Roger, my presence could be damaging to the culture of learning at rec.running. Yet in your own words s about me you say: "he’s attempting to get you to think, act and discover for yourself." Quoting my words when I’m being polite is pointless. You should quote them when I’m being honest. You can tell the difference, surely?
If you don’t want to be quoted, don’t post. It’s your decision, Roger. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You have chosen your way to educate others. I have chosen to share my folklore for nearly 8 years at rec.running. If others want to experiment or play with the ideas, they do or don’t. Hopefully they share back what they’ve learned and also what didn’t work Folklore says that if it doesn’t work for you, you give it no energy. Rather go on and find someone or something that makes sense and works for you. If you cannot find anyone, create your own and then please share it with us at rec.running so that we can learn and educate ourselves. If you stumble into a new group and you didn’t know anyone, it’s human nature to go with the crowd. And you, my dear Oz, have the crowd’s attention. From what I’ve observed, when he’s being sensible Wobbot’s ideas have a similar validity to your own. As, probably, do mine. In running, no-one has a monopoly on ‘the truth’. There are too many variables – of physiology, personality, technique – for there to be any ‘one true answer’ to a particular problem.
So what problem do you have when Oz often mentions the same thing in a more general: we are all an experiment of one? Oz doesn’t claim a greater voice than anoy one else here. If your advice and Bill’s is ignored, it is most likely due to the troll posts you guys have done. If you want to be a trol, fine. If you want to be a regular, that’s fine too. But you’ll find little respect for regular posts when you also make troll posts. I’ve run through ITBS. And I’ve seen ITBS, despite careful management, finish the running career of others. Does that mean that running is the cure for ITBS? Of course not, but it did work for me. Perhaps the sole responsibility we have, when asked for advice, it to offer the complete range of possible answers together with an estimation of their probabilities for success. In stating your ‘folklore’ – and nothing else – you offer it as the ‘best solution’. You say ‘it’s my folklore or find something else’. You don’t offer the ’something else’, despite being aware of other options. *You’ve* made *your* choice, and you only offer *your* choice.
If you had said "most common solution" then you might have a point. Ozzie notes that it is collected folklore, from many sources that often are quoted. It’s the concensus for the most part of the group. And it’s not like the rest of us are silent. I offer my advice on occasion. I have no trouble disagreeing with someone in the group either. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Finally Roger, I apologize to you for any word or action that I have done to offend you. Don’t apologise for the one positive impact you’ve made on me. I too succumbed to the ‘Oz may be odd, but he has our best interests at heart’ philosophy of this ng. I took a clear display of your intolerance, your condescension, and your narrow-mindedness to provoke this response. I have no intention of becoming a dead albatross hanging around your neck. I intend to be a live albatross, giving you a damn hard peck every time you write opinion as fact, present random thoughts as considered logic, or claim to have the inside track on a complex and varied world. Should be fun. Roger.
That’s why I say: Enjoy! — Ed Prochak running: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ family: http://web.magicinterface.com/~collins — "Two roads diverged in a wood and I I took the one less travelled by and that has made all the difference." robert frost
As you’re a relative newcomer to rec.running – but not to running – I’d be genuinely interested in your take on the Roger vs. Oz debate, either in personal email or on the ng. You choose.
What debate Roger? Ozzie just offers ideas for people to evaluate and use if they like. That fact that many people have found comfort and results with his suggestions is testimonial that his years of running lore has significant merit. You, even when not playing the troll seem to just criticize without offering your "lore." In effect I see mostly crapulous BS. You have an excellent writing style, albeit Kafkaesque at times – now if you can only use this ability to produce more than empty flatulence. I think you are jealous! — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese
Came across this older post and thought some might find it of interest in
speaking about running form and style. Why this interest – an interest that I contend has crossed over the boundaries into obsesion – on running form? We have numerous posts from you on ‘GAPO’ (and I defy *anyone* to explain to me exactly what any of these GAPO post mean), on breathing, etc, etc. What evidence do you have that *anything* you’ve proposed or recommended on rec.running actually works? Perhaps your opinions have some merit in a bar-room discussion between close friends, but posted to a ng? I think not. Why? Well, primarily because they’re conjecture, speculation or – as you seem to prefer – folklore. Do they create debate? Yes, they do. Does this debate cause you to re-asses your position? Well, we’ve had an example this week of your apparent inability to re-assess your position or to address the comments of respected contributors to rec.running. I am, of course, referring to Denny’s comments on cadence. I have a deep suspicion of anyone who demonstrates a propensity to bury his head in the sand when presented with evidence that contradicts his beliefs. How can I believe what you would seek to teach when you have a demonstrable inability to learn? If you wish to post matters of controversy or opinion, I would suggest that you have a moral obligation to take on board relevant comments made by members of rec.running, lest you be labelled a troll. If an ng has any point – and frankly, I doubt it has – it’s as a medium for communication between runners throughout the world. If you aren’t prepared to discuss and defend your opinions, and to learn from others, then why bother coming to rec.running? I troll, but I discuss. I provoke, but I listen to the responses. I annoy, but I don’t walk away from the argument. When presented with evidence that I find compelling, I amend my viewpoint. It may not be dialogue in the sense that you consider appropriate, but it *is* communication. Why does the Danny Kay song about ‘the Emperor having no clothes’ flit through my head every time I read one of your posts? In my considered opinion, most of your posts are beyond stupidly introverted, they’re simply ridiculous. Yet you’ve gathered unto your side a range of sycophantic individuals who uncritically acclaim your every word as ‘insightful’. I believe you have expressed a few interesting ideas since I’ve been on rec.running, but they have been well-hidden amidst the new-age, pseudo-scientific, dross. Let me state – clearly – that I feel your continued presence on rec.running to be damaging to the culture of learning that should exist on an international newsgroup. Your desire to ’stand above’ the gritty debate that occurs amongst the majority of this community indicates an individual that does not wish to expose his opinions to robust examination, nor one who genuinely considers that he may have to amend his opinions in the light of informed criticism. In short, you’ve built yourself a pedestal, climbed up onto it, and are refusing to come down. I think you should reconsider, ’cause I’ve bought a big hammer. Roger.
: Larry, I’d be lying if I said I’d ever noticed you on the ng before today, : but I googled your email address to get a bit of background before : responding to your comments. : You’re a direct chap with a sound sense of humour. You’re in a similar age : group to Oz and myself, have a similar professional background, appear to : have an eclectic range of interests, and gave surprisingly good advice on : the MMR issue. As you’re a relative newcomer to rec.running – but not to : running – I’d be genuinely interested in your take on the Roger vs. Oz : debate, either in personal email or on the ng. You choose. : Regards, : Roger. I read the message you wrote to Ozzie in response to the sames message I responded too. I see what you mean about debate. I don’t give a rat’s ass about style, views, or personality issues. I just care about results. So I won’t offer any opinions on the debate. If I have any issues with Ozzie’s posting style, I will deal directly with Ozzie. (You were kind enough to call me "direct," I would have probably said "blunt." Must be one of those polite UKisms. :-) I am a relative "newcomer" to r.r this time around, although I was a long time lurker several years ago. If you go far enough back you can probably find a few post. I’m just "more serious" now. Larry
I think you are jealous!
Huh? The ONLY time the green-eyed monster had me by the goolies was when I realised that Cathy Freeman loved another. I still can’t quite get my head around it. She was so NICE to me. I expected a call to be by her side. In view of her recent separation, I’m STILL expecting that call… Roger.
Larry, I’d be lying if I said I’d ever noticed you on the ng before today, but I googled your email address to get a bit of background before responding to your comments. You’re a direct chap with a sound sense of humour. You’re in a similar age group to Oz and myself, have a similar professional background, appear to have an eclectic range of interests, and gave surprisingly good advice on the MMR issue. As you’re a relative newcomer to rec.running – but not to running – I’d be genuinely interested in your take on the Roger vs. Oz debate, either in personal email or on the ng. You choose. Regards, Roger.
I start below with a post of yours to Mark Collis. Following your post
are a number of people who have played with my folklore and opinions. They educated themselves. They have made the folklore on running form and style their own and have shared it with other runners. From your cut n’ paste posts, there appears to be a considerable number of individuals who feel they’ve benefited from your advice. Whilst I would contend that many of these folk would have seen their conditions/complaints/difficulties resolve/improve/disappear through the body’s natural ability to heal itself, it would be churlish not to permit you to claim some credit for their improvement. I would note, however, that plenty of folk believe in witch doctors. There is no need to hammer away. There is no "range of sycophantic
individuals who uncritically acclaim your(Ozzie’s) every word as ‘insightful’." There is no pedestal. Running, Roger, keeps me grounded. You are one of many who remind me that my feet are of clay. One involved himself in our conversation today. Didn’t you notice? I can’t hold you personally responsible for the fawning crowd at your feet. I can hold you responsible for playing them so openly. If the role of a leader is to lead – not simply to ‘manage’ – then why aren’t you leading? Why did you confront and ridicule Michael Roose? Sure, he was a troll, but he was also the ONLY poster who regularly offered links to research that may be useful to runners/endurance athletes. His appearance on rec running may have been self-serving (isn’t everyone’s?), but his information was valid and offered another yet perspective to add to the mix. You appeared threatened and upset. Why? Roger, my presence could be damaging to the culture of learning at
rec.running. Yet in your own words s about me you say: "he’s attempting to get you to think, act and discover for yourself." Quoting my words when I’m being polite is pointless. You should quote them when I’m being honest. You can tell the difference, surely? You have chosen your way to educate others. I have chosen to share my
folklore for nearly 8 years at rec.running. If others want to experiment or play with the ideas, they do or don’t. Hopefully they share back what they’ve learned and also what didn’t work Folklore says that if it doesn’t work for you, you give it no energy.
Rather go on and find someone or something that makes sense and works for you. If you cannot find anyone, create your own and then please share it with us at rec.running so that we can learn and educate ourselves. If you stumble into a new group and you didn’t know anyone, it’s human nature to go with the crowd. And you, my dear Oz, have the crowd’s attention. From what I’ve observed, when he’s being sensible Wobbot’s ideas have a similar validity to your own. As, probably, do mine. In running, no-one has a monopoly on ‘the truth’. There are too many variables – of physiology, personality, technique – for there to be any ‘one true answer’ to a particular problem. I’ve run through ITBS. And I’ve seen ITBS, despite careful management, finish the running career of others. Does that mean that running is the cure for ITBS? Of course not, but it did work for me. Perhaps the sole responsibility we have, when asked for advice, it to offer the complete range of possible answers together with an estimation of their probabilities for success. In stating your ‘folklore’ – and nothing else – you offer it as the ‘best solution’. You say ‘it’s my folklore or find something else’. You don’t offer the ’something else’, despite being aware of other options. *You’ve* made *your* choice, and you only offer *your* choice. Before responding to Denny’s post on rec.running, I first emailed him and
prefer not to reply without having spoken to him first. As you wish, though again I must note your distinct reluctance to answer a specific complaint with a specific reply, your response on this issue notwithstanding. Finally Roger, I apologize to you for any word or action that I have
done to offend you. Don’t apologise for the one positive impact you’ve made on me. I too succumbed to the ‘Oz may be odd, but he has our best interests at heart’ philosophy of this ng. I took a clear display of your intolerance, your condescension, and your narrow-mindedness to provoke this response. I have no intention of becoming a dead albatross hanging around your neck. I intend to be a live albatross, giving you a damn hard peck every time you write opinion as fact, present random thoughts as considered logic, or claim to have the inside track on a complex and varied world. Should be fun. Roger.
Ozzie, you’re a nice guy. : Larry, : I take responsibility for whatever my part is in creating Roger’s : position. But by apologizing to an obviously contiv^H^H^H^H^H^H, ah, ’somewhat ironic’ post, you allow him to NOT take responsibility for creating Roger’s position. :-) : I choose to continue to share what I’ve learned, experienced, shared : and demonstrated about running, running form and style, injury : prevention and all the other folklore I’ve picked up along the way. : I continue to share it freely and openly. Yeah, yeah, we all know that. But if you are too free and easy no one will want to date you in the long run. :-) : I have been attacked numberous times over 8 years. From my point of : view, some rightly and some wrongly. From many of these I’ve learned : that the attack is not about me. Well, this non-attack isn’t about you either. Uh, well, maybe it is. (insert another smiley, my face is straining from the permanent grin) : I’m still here at rec.running to keep on learning. Well, in 8 years, you obviously haven’t leaned to use facetiousness, sarcasm, or irony to make a valid point. I recommeend it. :-) again. : I’m off for a run around Morley Field. Just to be clear, I don’t know shit. I’m just her to learn how little! 
Larry
: Finally Roger, I apologize to you for any word or action that I have done to offend you. Hey Ozzie, I was with you until I got to here. "Your enemies don’t need it, and your friends won’t believe it." …or is it … Larry
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] : Finally Roger, I apologize to you for any word or action that I have done to offend you. Hey Ozzie, I was with you until I got to here. "Your enemies don’t need it, and your friends won’t believe it." …or is it … Larry
Larry, I take responsibility for whatever my part is in creating Roger’s position. I’ve been too involved in conflict resolution over the years to know that I am not innocent. My shadow most often sneaks up on me when I get tangled up in my own righteousness. I choose to continue to share what I’ve learned, experienced, shared and demonstrated about running, running form and style, injury prevention and all the other folklore I’ve picked up along the way. I continue to share it freely and openly. Since it’s beginning on the Ides of March in 1975, the San Diego Marathon Clinic has been a way that many of us gave back to the San Diego Running community. It has always been free. In ‘95 or early ‘96 I came to rec.running to have my answers questioned. It was a way to continue sharing what I’ve learned about running and marathoning. I also wanted to see if I could do it in words alone. I have been attacked numberous times over 8 years. From my point of view, some rightly and some wrongly. From many of these I’ve learned that the attack is not about me. Since being moved by the comment: "All conversations are with myself, they just happen to involve other people most of the tim" I have found myself checking myself when I project my feelings and emotions onto others. I cannot let others be an excuse for me going unconscious. What I have asked is that when someone criticizes me, if they would only share a few better ways of presenting what I may say in such a convoluted or confusing way so that others and myself can understand the thoughts or ideas better. Over the years, people like Patrick, Sam, Denny Anderson, and so many others have added to helping me and others clarify in our own minds a better way to create word pictures about all the multitudinous aspects of running. I’m still here at rec.running to keep on learning. I’m off for a run around Morley Field. In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
I was looking for a post that spoke about road race courses being measured on the tangents. Couldn’t fit it. Came across this older post and thought some might find it of interest in speaking about running form and style. Ozzie Newsgroups: rec.running NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.60.27.151 … "Straight line running" Pretty straight forward like doing strides. Run down a straight line, such as on a track, planting the feet close to the centre of the line. Work on form, as well — knee lift, arm drive… This helps to utilize the "drive" efficiently, to apply the running forces in a straight path and to avoid lateral (side to side), wasteful movements. (sorry no vid… watch replays of olympic coverage!) …
This is the second thread mentioning straight line running in about a week. In both instances it was advanced as a good idea. I don’t know whether it is or not, but here is what I’ve observed. When I run down the yellow line in the road (yes, thankfully, I live where I can do that) and I use my version of the current r.r canonical form, my feet strike on opposite sides of the line with a centerline separation distance of maybe 6 to 8 inches. When I modify my form so that I bring my arms across my chest so that the arm motion is predominantly side-to-side rather than the canonical fore-and-aft, then my foot strikes approach the centerline. None of this happens without Sir Isaac, so it’s clear to me what’s happening. The lateral motion of the arm mass causes (permits?) a counter lateral motion to the hips. I’ll use the following snapshot to describe what’s happening. When I’m pushing off on my right foot, the arm mass is displaced to the left, the hips to the right, more closely aligning the left hip joint to the centerline of the road and, therefore causing the left foot to strike near the centerline. I haven’t discovered a posture/technique to get my feet to land on the centerline without involving some lateral motion of my upper body. It’s not at all clear to me that running in line does these things: to utilize the "drive" efficiently, to apply the running forces in a
straight path Consider the driving leg – the right one in my snapshot. The hips carry the right hip joint to the right – away from the road centerline, so that forces applied at the shoe patch have to be transmitted up the leg, which is substantially off plumb viewed from the rear elevation and substantially angled to the right in the plan view. I don’t get how this keeps the forces in a straight path or serves efficiency. To be sure, the leg is capable of transmitting a purely forward force, but not without substantial support from its abductor. Is this a good thing? I dunno, but I’d start with ‘no,’ and look for reasons for ‘yes.’ to avoid lateral (side to side), wasteful movements
When you do this, you have a tendency to watch your feet and the line, and the narrow focus might lead you to believe that there’s little lateral motion. Zoom out a bit and look what else is going on. To get my feet in line takes considerable lateral movement by other things. Is it wasteful? Depends. Energy isn’t a vector, so it’s not valid to assert that energy associated with lateral or rotary motion is wasted. Similarly, there’s no basis in mechanics to assert that fore-and-aft motions are inherently more effective. Whether or not either technique is useful for propulsion depends on the details of gait. <rant I hate it when people use ‘efficiency’ for discussions like this. ‘Efficiency’ is the ratio of output power to input power. The useful output power of a runner on a level road at constant speed is exactly zero. The efficiency is zero too. Lets pick another word. I claim that I’m not a crank about this. In casual or informal discourse, casual or informal usage is fine, but in these discussions on r.r, people freely use ‘force,’ energy,’ ‘momentum’ at least with rigorous intent, so in that context, ‘efficiency’ should be zero. </rant Ahh. I feel better now. I use the technique frequently on deeply and narrowly rutted trails where there isn’t room for two feet side by side, but the rest of the time, I believe that effectiveness comes from strictly for-and-aft motions and I let the feet fall where they want to. (sorry no vid… watch replays of olympic coverage!)
Primed and informed by my readings on r.r, I paid what I thought was close attention to the Olympics coverage. I certainly didn’t detect any true in-line running. Nor did I see any LD runner with an arm motion that was strictly fore-and-aft. Indeed, to my eye, there was NO uniformity in arm/shoulder/hip motion in the packs. Could be they’re just diverse as readers of rec.running. Replays? are you nuts? I don’t take the whole thing THAT seriously. Trying to keep Sir Isaac’s flame alive on alien ground, Fred Klingener Ozzie’s Revised Reply: Fred, First, I go with the r.r. thoughts on form of foot plant as being such that there is between a 0 and 1or 2 inch separation on either side of midline of the yellow line. The feet land parallel on or on either side of a midline. I picture the hip joints moving around a vertical axis so that they are always in an equal and opposite position to each other. As the left hip joint and pelvis on the left side go forward, the right hip joint and pelvis on the right side would go back to the same degree. If the thigh or glut or hip connecting muscles and tendons on one side are tight that would constrict the movement of the pelvis on that side while running. You can see how it would throw the gait off especially if the thigh muscles weren’t as constricted on the other side. The movement around the vertical axis would not be opposite and equal…which in my mind would lead to some problems somewhere down the line. Position of pelvis as the left foot would be touching the ground during a run. ( 0 = left hip joint ^ direction of run x = vertical axis | 0 ) =right hit joint The left "(" and the right ")" represent the greater trochanter where people usually touch below the outside of the illiac crest when you ask people to touch their hip joints "0" and "0" represent the actual hip joint in relation to the pelvis "x" is the vertical axis around which the hip joints move. If you look at the body from the front and create an inverted triangle that goes from the illiac crest on either side of the pelvis to the pubic bone, and you go down half way on either side, you’ll find that is the approximate location of the hip joints, approximately a hand span apart. / / / 0 0 where hip joint is located, less than a hand span apart / / / pubic bone ( 0 x 0 ) In my mind’s eye, the legs move parallel to the hip joints. The feet land in parallel tracks approximately 0 to 3 inches apart. Am interested in how other view the foot landing in relation to a midline. Regarding the arms, for me I view the shoulders as equal and opposite in movement to that of the hip joints. In poling with cross country skiing you see similar kind of movement. Right hip joint forward, left shoulder joint forward. Or it can be viewed that the left elbow is driven forward by the right knee. Or symmetrically, the left arm is driven forward by the left leg so they are in opposite and equal relationship to left hip joint. What might be some better ways of describing the body’s movement during running? In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Hi, I am just start learning accounting by myself…and I am confussed the term "brought forward" and "carried forward", also the "carried down" and "brought down" … Thanks Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
The carried part is the starting point of the story, the brought the second part and conclusion. Roger — ‘Ladies Day at Royal Ascot’ on http://www.findit.co.uk/pictures.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am just start learning accounting by myself…and I am confussed the term "brought forward" and "carried forward", also the "carried down" and "brought down" … Thanks Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
The carried part is the starting point of the story, the brought the second part and conclusion. Roger
thanks you Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
As it relates to accounting, when a schedule spans more than one page the amounts on the first page are totaled and labeled something like "Administrative Expenses Carried Forward", on the next page the amount is repeated and labeled something like " Administrative Expenses Brought Forward"
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The carried part is the starting point of the story, the brought the second part and conclusion. Roger thanks you Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
Mind you, it also has the disquieting implication that the accountants weren’t found wrong. That should not sit comfortably…
Let’s remember the issue in question–did the government show that someone in Andersen attempted to corruptly persuade others to destroy evidence, which was essentially the criminal charge. On the one hand, they did not agree that any accountant filled that role–and, clearly, they considered at least Duncan and Odom as candidates and did not unanimously agree that either of them filled that role. On the other hand, though, once they found a single corrupt persuader they could all agree on, they didn’t need to search for another one. So I don’t think you can conclude that, had Nancy Temple not done what she did, they would not have eventually found an accountant who fit the role.
It seems to me that this verdict has actually caused more commotion in *legal* circles than it has in accounting circles, because the "bad act" the jury found related not to the conduct of accountants, but rather to the actions of an attorney. That’s a pretty stunning result, for the problematic conduct to have been at the attorney level. Mind you, it also has the disquieting implication that the accountants weren’t found wrong. That should not sit comfortably… —
The accountants did plenty wrong. That is what sits uncomfortably. Don’t blame the media. Don’t blame the attorneys. The _ACCOUNTANTS_ did plenty wrong. Without reducing the blame placed on individual accountants and accounting firms, additional blame should be assigned to the U.S. Congress, the SEC, the AICPA, and various individuals and firms who make their money selling tainted investment advice. There are probably others. Regards, Bill
It seems to me that this verdict has actually caused more commotion in *legal* circles than it has in accounting circles, because the "bad act" the jury found related not to the conduct of accountants, but rather to the actions of an attorney.
That’s a pretty stunning result, for the problematic conduct to have been at the attorney level. Mind you, it also has the disquieting implication that the accountants weren’t found wrong. That should not sit comfortably… — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/finances.html The cigars in Los Angeles that were Duchamp-signed and then smoked.
That’s the one part of the case I didn’t get. It appeared to me that she wanted her name taken off a memo for her own personal reasons — meaning she did not want to be called as a witness.
No, actually that would be for the protection of the employer/client. A disclosure related to a meeting in which legal counsel was involved that was included in the "quasi-public" workpaper file would result in a waiver of privilege, and potentially require the attorney to testify. In general, it’s not considered a good idea to put your attorney in that position <grin, so that move would have been one that "made sense" and was to protect the employer so that privilege could still be asserted. Now, whether the *jury* understood those niceties is one very real question about the verdict. However, remember that the jury also was concerned that Nancy had asked that they also remove references that could be construed as indicating Andersen thought the Enron release was misleading (which Duncan appparently *did* believe). It seems to me that this verdict has actually caused more commotion in *legal* circles than it has in accounting circles, because the "bad act" the jury found related not to the conduct of accountants, but rather to the actions of an attorney.
I figured this ALL ALONG. The press completely ignored her involvement and her criminal behavior. This earlier post clarifies things. ( As far as Andersens criminal actions )
Do I understand correctly that her error was in trying to withdraw her condemnation of the ENRON bookkeeping methods. I would expect this was to minimize Anderson’s apparent culpability by allowing herself to look equally culpable. That says something about the culture at AA but does not make her a villain. Do I read it right?
<<SNIP Do I read it right?
No. Her request demonstrated to the jury’s satisfaction that she was willing to alter records to influence the outcome of the future SEC investigation that she had already deduced would occur. Being willing to alter records in such a manner for the benefit of the employer for which she acted as an agent made her, to the jury, the one villain they could all agree upon. Regards, Bill
No. Her request demonstrated to the jury’s satisfaction that she was willing to alter records to influence the outcome of the future SEC investigation that she had already deduced would occur. Being willing to alter records in such a manner for the benefit of the employer for which she acted as an agent made her, to the jury, the one villain they could all agree upon.
Don’t you think she was naive (or ?) to put her request in writing?
That’s the one part of the case I didn’t get. It appeared to me that she wanted her name taken off a memo for her own personal reasons — meaning she did not want to be called as a witness. She might have wanted to protect herself as opposed to protecting her employer. To me, that would mean that SHE could be found guilty if she had been charged with a crime, but that didn’t translate to the COMPANY being found guilty. Of course, she is an agent of the company, and maybe her position was high enough that her actions could be translated to being the actions of the company as a whole, and not just an individual employee. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. Being willing to alter records in such a manner for the benefit of the employer for which she acted as an agent made her, to the jury, the one villain they could all agree upon.
That’s the one part of the case I didn’t get. It appeared to me that she wanted her name taken off a memo for her own personal reasons — meaning she did not want to be called as a witness
I believe she specifically stated that she did not want her name used, nor specific reference to consultation with legal, becasue she wanted the preserve the companies attorney client priviledge. This a a perfectly legit rationale, assuming the memo does not deny such a consultation – and I beleive it does not. It is also pretty ironic that this e-mail was in evidence because Andersen waived its attorney client priviledge anyway in an early effort to co-operate with Justice. When I first heard the jury found AA guilty becasue a staff attorney changed on euphemism in a Duncan memo (misleading) to pair of euphemisms (aggressive and unique) I thought the jury had gone off the deep end. But at least their theory of the crime has more basis in evidence than more sense than the governments theory of a widespread. conspiracy to shread. Temple’s intent was clear: To avoid giving the SEC the idea that Duncan concluded that Enron, by calling its losses from the SPE’s non-recurring against his advise, committed a crime in doing so. Without having read Duncan’;s origninal memo its hard for me to make that judgement. I don’t quarrel with the jury’s judgement that Duncan had concluded Enron commited a crime – although nobody as I recall was the least bit mislead by Enrons feeble attempt to characterize those losses as non-recurring – nobody took it seriously, not even apparently the SEC. Even if you agree with the jury that Temple’s editing of one word was criminal, its pretty absurd to find AA guilty on the basis of the faulty advise of one staff attorney with a short time on the job. I don’t fault the jury – they did as instructed.
I figured this ALL ALONG. The press completely ignored her involvement and her criminal behavior. This earlier post clarifies things. ( As far as Andersens criminal actions ) "Jurors also indicated they all agreed on one Andersen employee who was the corrupt persuader, Temple, thus nullifying the impact of the judge’s ruling yesterday that they did not all have to agree it was the same individual." — Houston Chronicle [http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/topstory2/1455557]
But right from her first congressional hearing, she came across as evasive, abusive, singing the same ’song and dance’, and stuck vigilianly to her lines. Impressive performance, but typical for criminal behavior. And OF COURSE there were many others involved, namely her bosses. But something to note is her total and complete complicity and involvement in the ‘inner circle’ of conspirators.
Nancy Temple, a creepy slimy hoodlum
That was entirely uncalled-for. "Nancy Temple, the Lawyer" would have *exactly* the same meaning in most people’s minds Irv
Personally, I feel pity for Ms. Temple. She didn’t profit from Enron other than getting a salary she could have gotten from a variety of other employers. She made a mistake in judgement that on face seems much less clear than a typical "criminal activity" in an effort to do her job, which is to limit company exposure. It will definately cost her a career, and it might cost her her freedom. I hope none of you ever find yourself in this situation, but if you do, you certainly don’t deserve anyone’s compassion. Chris
"Nancy Temple, the Lawyer" would have *exactly* the same meaning in most people’s minds
Now, now. This is a family NG. No profanity please. — Todd Stephens
On Fri, 08 Mar 2002 16:45:39 GMT, info…@mindspring.com (Richard Evans) wrote: >I’ve contributed to a number of threads about various meds I’ve taken, >all of which eventually lost effectiveness. In fact, that seems to be >the rule: everything works, but only for so long. I have a number of >chronic disorders, and sleep disorders seem the only case where this >is true. >I wonder why that is? If I’m building up a tolerance, why am I not >building up tolerances to other meds taken for other purposes?
Tolerance seems to be a behavior that’s shared by benzodiazapines and their near-cousins. >I have even speculated that *none* of the drugs really work.
Hawthorne Effect (placebo effect) is real. However, they’ve learned that there are some differences that can be seen on functional imaging.
Charles L. Perrin <c.l.per…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >>I have even speculated that *none* of the drugs really work. >Hawthorne Effect (placebo effect) is real.
I don’t believe Hawthorne Effect has ever claimed to affect physiology, only behavior. And placebo effect is not as strong as conventional wisdom would believe. See the article at http://www.sciam.com/2001/1001issue/1001scicit2.html Even though the article acknowledges that placebo effect varies from ailment to ailment, there is no accounting for repeated effects for the same ailment, spanning a period of over ten years, and reoccuring for the same treatment administered at intervals. Furthermore, it excludes entirely the scenario where the patient has a strong expectation that the treatment will work, wants desperately for it to work, then simply sees no effect. > However, they’ve learned >that there are some differences that can be seen on functional >imaging.
Repeated sleep studies show abnormal EEGs, though my sleep doctor has run out of ideas for treatments. I can’t even count the number of drugs I’ve been on. Some have been benzodiazapines (Prosom, for instance), but others have not (e.g. Ambien, Sonata, Remeron, Zoloft, Prozac, etc). Dick Evans
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Richard Evans wrote: > I’ve contributed to a number of threads about various meds I’ve taken, > all of which eventually lost effectiveness. In fact, that seems to be > the rule: everything works, but only for so long. I have a number of > chronic disorders, and sleep disorders seem the only case where this > is true. > I wonder why that is? If I’m building up a tolerance, why am I not > building up tolerances to other meds taken for other purposes? I have > even speculated that *none* of the drugs really work. When my sleep > deteriorates, I just start throwing drugs at it until I start to sleep > again. Whatever I’m taking at the time gets the credit. It may well be > that there is a cycle of disruption that is independent of meds. > I have been keeping records for about 15 months, and there is indeed a > cycle, though not a predictable, repeating one: I go for weeks or > months sleeping OK, then deteriorate for 1-3 weeks. In those 15 > months, I rarely have a single, isolated night of bad sleep. I’ve had > one period of two months where I slept OK without any meds, then > spontaneously reverted to a period fo disturbance. > That was last October-November and I’ve been up/down and on/off meds > since. > Anyone else with similar experience? Anyone who has found one med to > be a long term solution? > Dick Evans
FWIW, a Ph.D.neuropsychologist I know was treating an M.D. He wrote his own prescriptions, but was continually changing, by rotation, He rotated back-and-forth through the meds that were best for him. I think he also rotated between families of drugs, to benefit from the family differences.
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >FWIW, a Ph.D.neuropsychologist I know was treating an M.D. He wrote his own >prescriptions, but was continually changing, by rotation, He rotated back-and-forth >through the meds that were best for him. I think he also rotated between families of >drugs, to benefit from the family differences.
That’s pretty much what I do, but the results are almost random: what worked last time doesn’t work this time and vice versa. It’s that unpredictability that leads me to speculate that something other than the drugs is controlling the cycle. Dick Evans
I’ve contributed to a number of threads about various meds I’ve taken, all of which eventually lost effectiveness. In fact, that seems to be the rule: everything works, but only for so long. I have a number of chronic disorders, and sleep disorders seem the only case where this is true. I wonder why that is? If I’m building up a tolerance, why am I not building up tolerances to other meds taken for other purposes? I have even speculated that *none* of the drugs really work. When my sleep deteriorates, I just start throwing drugs at it until I start to sleep again. Whatever I’m taking at the time gets the credit. It may well be that there is a cycle of disruption that is independent of meds. I have been keeping records for about 15 months, and there is indeed a cycle, though not a predictable, repeating one: I go for weeks or months sleeping OK, then deteriorate for 1-3 weeks. In those 15 months, I rarely have a single, isolated night of bad sleep. I’ve had one period of two months where I slept OK without any meds, then spontaneously reverted to a period fo disturbance. That was last October-November and I’ve been up/down and on/off meds since. Anyone else with similar experience? Anyone who has found one med to be a long term solution? Dick Evans
Rod Speed said.. Dunno about "Bartels and his ilk", but back then, he was with Qantas, before it merged with AA. Qantas wasn’t involved in that dispute, only the domestics. RS Pity about Bartel’s union involvement. The union JB would’ve been in at the time, the International Airline Pilots Association, was not involved. Only the local AFAP, headed by Capt. Brian McCarthy, was. I think that the MOA, later to become the ASU, may have had something to do with it too. Not sure. However, I’m sure that JB can enlighten us. Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply
Most professions tho are in some union or another Wrong. Most doctors for example dont bother with the AMA. with name changes like "associations" Society etc; With Doctors Lawyers Engineers all having to be in one to either have there qualifications recognized or to get work. You’ve made a complete fool of yourself there too. Well in the case of Doctors Accountants or what ever, plenty have qualifications that give them recognition by the Government ("DEET") but NOT by the relevant "society" (union) which means they are not going to get work
Complete and utter drivel. As usual, you aint actually gotta clue to your pathetic excuse for a name. Doctors dont have to have anything to do with the AMA to be able to practice or ‘get work’. Accountants in spades. There is no requirement what so ever for any engineer to be part of the appropriate association. ALL that matters is basic stuff like getting qualifications in the appropriate field etc. And even that isnt required with a hell of a lot of engineering. The other factor in favor of unions is that it does help a companies progress as Alarm bells are presented to a company in a more organized manner of a work forces collective view How odd that so many of them would love to have no union arseholes in their operation at all. In some companies with self managing work forces they are found to be very productive with safety standards and progress second to none (The Unions have representives on the Board) Usual utterly dishonest flagrant misrepresentation of what actually happens. Germany for instance I believe this happens (eg Mercedes Benz)
Pigs arse it does on ’self managing work forces’ In Australia the are very few that do but there are some
There are a few coops etc. Wota pity that very few of those bother to have anything to do with unions.
You’ve made a complete fool of yourself there too.
Well in the case of Doctors Accountants or what ever, plenty have qualifications that give them recognition by the Government ("DEET") but NOT by the relevant "society" (union) which means they are not going to get work – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -There is no requirement what so ever for any engineer to be part of the appropriate association. ALL that matters is basic stuff like getting qualifications in the appropriate field etc. And even that is required with a hell of a lot of engineering. The other factor in favor of unions is that it does help a companies progress as Alarm bells are presented to a company in a more organized manner of a work forces collective view How odd that so many of them would love to have no union arseholes in their operation at all. In some companies with self managing work forces they are found to be very productive with safety standards and progress second to none (The Unions have representives on the Board) Usual utterly dishonest flagrant misrepresentation of what actually happens.
Germany for instance I believe this happens (eg Mercedes Benz) In Australia the are very few that do but there are some Petzl
Rod Speed said.. And the pilots in spades before even Hawke decided that enough was enough and Bartels and his ilk were give the bums rush very comprehensively indeed. Dunno about "Bartels and his ilk", but back then, he was with Qantas, before it merged with AA. Qantas wasn’t involved in that dispute, only the domestics.
Pity about Bartel’s union involvement.
Rod Speed said.. RS And the pilots in spades before even Hawke decided RS that enough was enough and Bartels and his ilk were RS give the bums rush very comprehensively indeed. Dunno about "Bartels and his ilk", but back then, he was with Qantas, before it merged with AA. Qantas wasn’t involved in that dispute, only the domestics. Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just the usual union bludger bullshit thats seen hardly anyone stupid enough to want to have anything do do with any union now. The only factor to *EVER* raise the standard of living in a country would be a free thinking independent union Wota pathetic wanker you are Pretzel. No union can ever ‘raise the standard of living in a country’, and I bet you cant even manage to produce a SINGLE example of ‘a free thinking independent union’ in the entire world, let alone one thats ever managed to ‘raise the standard of living in a country’ No such animal. Its just a pathetic little fantasy. NOT the Government of the day Sure, ‘raise the standard of living in a country’ happens because of MUCH more fundamental things than either of those packa wankers. Union’s are definitely partners in progress in which all benefit Pathetic really. Like I said, almost everyone has noticed now that unions are completely and utterly irrelevant. And that there isnt much in it with govts either, they’ve shown one hell of a capacity to give those bums the bums rush whenever they feel like a change. Originally they were the only factor to raise a countries standard of living and still are to a degree.
Complete and utter drivel. What actually did that was MUCH more fundamental stuff like the industrial revolution, the industrialisation of economys largely based on agriculture, tremendous advances in industry and the sort of radical change that happened in countrys like the US over a couple of centurys and delivered living standards that are the envy of the rest of the world, particularly the dregs of the world like India, Russia and China etc. That didnt have a damned thing to do with any union, and neither did what the Japs did as they recovered from one of the most spectacular footshots any country has ever managed. Now unfortunately they are simply a front for political parties
They always were you silly little pig ignorant fool. The labor party was SET UP by the unions. And has now been almost entirely hijacked by posturing fools in suits who have almost never actually done a days work in their entire ‘life’ In Australia the Labour one and used as a stepping stone not to protect ones rights or income, just to get another snout in the trough of that party
Got SFA to do with that terminally stupid claim you made that ‘The only factor to *EVER* raise the standard of living in a country would be a free thinking independent union’ You’re complete off with the fucking fairys, as always. Trouble is the Union positions are taken up by wrong persons (unopposed through lack of interest)
The reason that happens is that no one with any sense sees any role for unions anymore. They’ve noticed that union ‘positions’ are just parasites with their snouts in the trough, only interested in stabbing each other in the back in a desperate rush for the gravy train. Perhaps ones work mates should select a representative by ballot whether they wish to stand for it or not?
The absolutely vast bulk of them have the sense to realise that unions are way past their useby date and that they dont need any ‘representative’ at all. The tiny handful of fools like you who cant manage to work those basics out for yourself dont actually amount to a hill of beans. This I would think
Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of thought. stop the last choice getting the job of ones representative as it is now
Mindlessly silly. No one with any sense would do other than just make an obscene gesture at those who ‘elected’ them when they had said already that they werent interested. And we’re never gunna have compulsory ‘representatives’ Even the worst of the commos were ever stupid enough for that. Most professions tho are in some union or another
Wrong. Most doctors for example dont bother with the AMA. with name changes like "associations" Society etc; With Doctors Lawyers Engineers all having to be in one to either have there qualifications recognized or to get work.
You’ve made a complete fool of yourself there too. There is no requirement what so ever for any engineer to be part of the appropriate association. ALL that matters is basic stuff like getting qualifications in the appropriate field etc. And even that is required with a hell of a lot of engineering. The other factor in favor of unions is that it does help a companies progress as Alarm bells are presented to a company in a more organized manner of a work forces collective view
How odd that so many of them would love to have no union arseholes in their operation at all. In some companies with self managing work forces they are found to be very productive with safety standards and progress second to none (The Unions have representives on the Board)
Usual utterly dishonest flagrant misrepresentation of what actually happens.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just the usual union bludger bullshit thats seen hardly anyone stupid enough to want to have anything do do with any union now. The only factor to *EVER* raise the standard of living in a country would be a free thinking independent union Wota pathetic wanker you are Pretzel. No union can ever ‘raise the standard of living in a country’, and I bet you cant even manage to produce a SINGLE example of ‘a free thinking independent union’ in the entire world, let alone one thats ever managed to ‘raise the standard of living in a country’ No such animal. Its just a pathetic little fantasy. NOT the Government of the day Sure, ‘raise the standard of living in a country’ happens because of MUCH more fundamental things than either of those packa wankers. Union’s are definitely partners in progress in which all benefit Pathetic really. Like I said, almost everyone has noticed now that unions are completely and utterly irrelevant. And that there isnt much in it with govts either, they’ve shown one hell of a capacity to give those bums the bums rush whenever they feel like a change.
Originally they were the only factor to raise a countries standard of living and still are to a degree. Now unfortunately they are simply a front for political parties In Australia the Labour one and used as a stepping stone not to protect ones rights or income, just to get another snout in the trough of that party Trouble is the Union positions are taken up by wrong persons (unopposed through lack of interest) Perhaps ones work mates should select a representative by ballot whether they wish to stand for it or not? This I would think stop the last choice getting the job of ones representative as it is now Most professions tho are in some union or another with name changes like "associations" Society etc; With Doctors Lawyers Engineers all having to be in one to either have there qualifications recognized or to get work. The other factor in favor of unions is that it does help a companies progress as Alarm bells are presented to a company in a more organized manner of a work forces collective view In some companies with self managing work forces they are found to be very productive with safety standards and progress second to none (The Unions have representives on the Board) Petzl
Rod Speed wrote Some stupid union bludger claiming to be just the usual union bludger bullshit thats seen hardly anyone stupid enough to want to have anything do do with any union now. The only factor to *EVER* raise the standard of living in a country would be a free thinking independent union
Wota pathetic wanker you are Pretzel. No union can ever ‘raise the standard of living in a country’, and I bet you cant even manage to produce a SINGLE example of ‘a free thinking independent union’ in the entire world, let alone one thats ever managed to ‘raise the standard of living in a country’ No such animal. Its just a pathetic little fantasy. NOT the Government of the day
Sure, ‘raise the standard of living in a country’ happens because of MUCH more fundamental things than either of those packa wankers. Union’s are definitely partners in progress in which all benefit
Pathetic really. Like I said, almost everyone has noticed now that unions are completely and utterly irrelevant. And that there isnt much in it with govts either, they’ve shown one hell of a capacity to give those bums the bums rush whenever they feel like a change.
Some stupid union bludger claiming to be
just the usual union bludger bullshit thats all it ever spews.
Some stupid union bludger claiming to be
just the usual union bludger bullshit thats seen hardly anyone stupid enough to want to have anything do do with any union now.
Some stupid union bludger claiming to be just the usual union bludger bullshit thats seen hardly anyone stupid enough to want to have anything do do with any union now.
The only factor to *EVER* raise the standard of living in a country would be a free thinking independent union NOT the Government of the day Union’s are definitely partners in progress in which all benefit (I admit I can’t resist this particularly as it annoy’s Rod) Petzl
And they cant even manage the basics either like the very low product cost from places like McDs sees heaps of people use them because its excellent value and that provides heaps of jobs.
You think McD’s is excellent value ?. Now I know who the wanker is. I know why you eat there, you saw an add that said " Eat at McDonalds, 3 trillion maggots can’t be wrong"
Unions are way past their useby date, as the absolute vast bulk of the workforce has noticed. Parasite like Combet, Burrows and their ilk should be flushed down the sewers of history.
If it wasn’t for unions, there would be people like Rod Speed in management abusing workers. There is nothing more infuriating seeing some lefty, socialist with a pommie speech impediment going on tv about "workers rights" as they bring all trains/petrol/airlines to a holt.
Of course management are completely innocent. And even when its not some damned pom, arseholes like Ludwig should be put to the sword or jailed.
? There is more to a community than some selfish workers who simply want more money than the other guy.
Like their bosses giving themselves 400% pay rises. And dont give a damn about the only thing that matters, the customers of their industry.
I’m a unionist and I care. Most "workers" are wankers and would not last one day in management.
Interesting comment, are you a wanker boss, or just a c**t boss. Yep, and when arseholes like Bartels get too big for their boots, they should get the bums rush and be replaced by those who are prepared to work for what is after all very decent money.
Publish your address, I want to pay you a visit. Whoever it was had a point, cabin staff get adequately paid for what is after all the sort of work anyone with a clue can do.
Unions have got their wages, or would you rather see them on $100 per week. Silly little bludgers like Lister in spades. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing to them to do that work. They’re free to leave any time they dont like the job and there are plenty happy to have that job to replace them.
Where do they go to ?. If the likes of Combet and Burrows dont approve ? Who gives a damn ? No one, thats who.
I give a damn. TWU paid up and proud.
My post was a tounge-in-cheek troll to stir you up Rod. I completely disassociate myself from any of Roddles comments or criticsm of Mr Bartels or any other posters in this group….
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Yes RT, have heard that the people in GA often have the raw end of the stick when it comes to conditions. Personally, I work for one of the major airlines and haven’t experienced that first hand. Interesting that the ALAEA wanted more money to fight for higher pay. Don’t know what you used to pay in union fees but mine are pretty high…in my opinion they already get enough.
Agree. At the time it was the last straw. Very low wage, non-earning wife, 2 kids, mortgage etc – then a surcharge to get more money for someone already much better off. Since then I’ve done very nicely by myself Have occasionally given unions a bit of a hand if I thought it was justified, but’ll never join one again.
Unions only think of themselves and have no regard for anyone else or our country.
They do indeed. And the current airline activity is an absolutely classic example of that. Fools like Lister are so stupid that they cant even manage to grasp that low cost operations like Impulse may very well deliver lots more jobs as low fares get plenty who would far prefer to fly away from the alternatives. Let alone the massive benefit to the only people who actually matter, those who pay to fly commercially. They do not seem to realise it takes productivity to make money. Companies do not have an endless supply of money.
And they cant even manage the basics either like the very low product cost from places like McDs sees heaps of people use them because its excellent value and that provides heaps of jobs. There will always be plenty who dont have enough viable between their ears to do do anything that requires anything more sophisticated than cabin crew, monkeys on keyboards, McDs etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find who needs a union. I have found that over the years with different companies, they pay you more if your good at what you do anyway. Yes and I have come accross the odd company that rips off it’s workers, but there is nothing stopping a person in getting another job. I would tolerate unions IF: a) there were secret ballotts on all decisions b) strikes were outlawed c) membership was not a requirment to employment. No point in bothering with those parasites even with that detail. Unions are way past their useby date, as the absolute vast bulk of the workforce has noticed. Parasite like Combet, Burrows and their ilk should be flushed down the sewers of history. There is nothing more infuriating seeing some lefty, socialist with a pommie speech impediment going on tv about "workers rights" as they bring all trains/petrol/airlines to a holt. And even when its not some damned pom, arseholes like Ludwig should be put to the sword or jailed. There is more to a community than some selfish workers who simply want more money than the other guy. And dont give a damn about the only thing that matters, the customers of their industry. Most "workers" are wankers and would not last one day in management. Yep, and when arseholes like Bartels get too big for their boots, they should get the bums rush and be replaced by those who are prepared to work for what is after all very decent money. Whoever it was had a point, cabin staff get adequately paid for what is after all the sort of work anyone with a clue can do. Silly little bludgers like Lister in spades. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing to them to do that work. They’re free to leave any time they dont like the job and there are plenty happy to have that job to replace them. If the likes of Combet and Burrows dont approve ? Who gives a damn ? No one, thats who. just want a bit of feed back to see how every one feels about the unions in the aviation industry. I am a member and feel they are useful and protect employees from corporate bullies, such as that of impulse airlines. Unions are great, here to stay and i feel all should be members. Wota wanka.
I am a member of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) and although they are a right wing union they have certainly helped me out on occasions. The ALAEA carries out enterprise bargaining with my employer on my behalf and this suits me just fine. To change the topic just slightly, it is worth noting that previously union free professions (such as, for instance, surgeons) are looking at forming unions.
In fact those are nothing like the unions being discussed. The vast bulk of surgeons get to charge whatever fee the market will bear etc. And there are bugger all union members in many of the real growth areas like computing etc. There’s a reason for that. I believe unions are necessary (in my profession anyway) but I really think there should be a balance (who remembers the days of the BLF holding employers to ransom).
And the pilots in spades before even Hawke decided that enough was enough and Bartels and his ilk were give the bums rush very comprehensively indeed. To say that ALL union members are bludgers is really a simplistic arguement
Wota pity no one did. Having fun thrashing that straw man are you ? Even you must have noticed that the absolute vast bulk of the workforce cant see any point in belonging to a union now. And quite a few who are still union members are essentially coerced into that even now.
Paul Lister…meet Rod Speed, resident flamer.
I am a member of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) and although they are a right wing union they have certainly helped me out on occasions. The ALAEA carries out enterprise bargaining with my employer on my behalf and this suits me just fine.
Like they say, YMMV. Been in a union twice (1st and last) – and it was the ALAEA At the time those in the airlines were doing quite well, while those on lighties (including me) were being paid less than motor mechanics. We were all hit with an additional levy to fight a case for more money – for the airline group. Paid up and got out.
Yes RT, have heard that the people in GA often have the raw end of the stick when it comes to conditions. Personally, I work for one of the major airlines and haven’t experienced that first hand. Interesting that the ALAEA wanted more money to fight for higher pay. Don’t know what you used to pay in union fees but mine are pretty high…in my opinion they already get enough. Regards, BB.
Unions only think of themselves and have no regard for anyone else or our country. They do not seem to realise it takes productivity to make money. Companies do not have an endless supply of money. I find who needs a union. I have found that over the years with different companies, they pay you more if your good at what you do anyway. Yes and I have come accross the odd company that rips off it’s workers, but there is nothing stopping a person in getting another job. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would tolerate unions IF: a) there were secret ballotts on all decisions b) strikes were outlawed c) membership was not a requirment to employment. No point in bothering with those parasites even with that detail. Unions are way past their useby date, as the absolute vast bulk of the workforce has noticed. Parasite like Combet, Burrows and their ilk should be flushed down the sewers of history. There is nothing more infuriating seeing some lefty, socialist with a pommie speech impediment going on tv about "workers rights" as they bring all trains/petrol/airlines to a holt. And even when its not some damned pom, arseholes like Ludwig should be put to the sword or jailed. There is more to a community than some selfish workers who simply want more money than the other guy. And dont give a damn about the only thing that matters, the customers of their industry. Most "workers" are wankers and would not last one day in management. Yep, and when arseholes like Bartels get too big for their boots, they should get the bums rush and be replaced by those who are prepared to work for what is after all very decent money. Whoever it was had a point, cabin staff get adequately paid for what is after all the sort of work anyone with a clue can do. Silly little bludgers like Lister in spades. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing to them to do that work. They’re free to leave any time they dont like the job and there are plenty happy to have that job to replace them. If the likes of Combet and Burrows dont approve ? Who gives a damn ? No one, thats who. just want a bit of feed back to see how every one feels about the unions in the aviation industry. I am a member and feel they are useful and protect employees from corporate bullies, such as that of impulse airlines. Unions are great, here to stay and i feel all should be members. Wota wanka.
Regards, Andrew Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser.
I would tolerate unions IF: a) there were secret ballotts on all decisions b) strikes were outlawed c) membership was not a requirment to employment.
No point in bothering with those parasites even with that detail. Unions are way past their useby date, as the absolute vast bulk of the workforce has noticed. Parasite like Combet, Burrows and their ilk should be flushed down the sewers of history. There is nothing more infuriating seeing some lefty, socialist with a pommie speech impediment going on tv about "workers rights" as they bring all trains/petrol/airlines to a holt.
And even when its not some damned pom, arseholes like Ludwig should be put to the sword or jailed. There is more to a community than some selfish workers who simply want more money than the other guy.
And dont give a damn about the only thing that matters, the customers of their industry. Most "workers" are wankers and would not last one day in management.
Yep, and when arseholes like Bartels get too big for their boots, they should get the bums rush and be replaced by those who are prepared to work for what is after all very decent money. Whoever it was had a point, cabin staff get adequately paid for what is after all the sort of work anyone with a clue can do. Silly little bludgers like Lister in spades. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing to them to do that work. They’re free to leave any time they dont like the job and there are plenty happy to have that job to replace them. If the likes of Combet and Burrows dont approve ? Who gives a damn ? No one, thats who. just want a bit of feed back to see how every one feels about the unions in the aviation industry. I am a member and feel they are useful and protect employees from corporate bullies, such as that of impulse airlines. Unions are great, here to stay and i feel all should be members.
Wota wanka.
Paul Lister…meet Rod Speed, resident flamer. I am a member of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) and although they are a right wing union they have certainly helped me out on occasions. The ALAEA carries out enterprise bargaining with my employer on my behalf and this suits me just fine. To change the topic just slightly, it is worth noting that previously union free professions (such as, for instance, surgeons) are looking at forming unions. I believe unions are necessary (in my profession anyway) but I really think there should be a balance (who remembers the days of the BLF holding employers to ransom). To say that ALL union members are bludgers is really a simplistic arguement and really is just flaming in the extreme… Regards, BB.
just want a bit of feed back to see how every one feels about the unions
Union bludgers should be to the sword. in the aviation industry.
In any industry. I am a member
Just a bludger. and feel they are useful and protect employees from corporate bullies, such as that of impulse airlines.
Wota pathetic little wanker. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to ‘work’ there, bludger. Unions are great, here to stay and i feel all should be members.
More fool you. Clearly the vast bulk of the workforce has much more sense, even if you’re that stupid. All the rest of your puerile silly shit flushed where it belongs, as always.
just want a bit of feed back to see how every one feels about the unions in the aviation industry. I am a member and feel they are useful and protect employees from corporate bullies, such as that of impulse airlines. Unions are great, here to stay and i feel all should be members. P.S. The whole purpose of this post is to gee Rod Speed up. – have fun replying rod i won’t be reviewing this post again as i know your comments are all ways bias and nasty, a reflection of the person that types them i think! Regards, Paul
Paul you have not got a response from Rod so I thought I whould up the ante I would tolerate unions IF: a) there were secret ballotts on all decisions b) strikes were outlawed c) membership was not a requirment to employment. There is nothing more infuriating seeing some lefty, socialist with a pommie speech impediment going on tv about "workers rights" as they bring all trains/petrol/airlines to a holt. There is more to a community than some selfish workers who simply want more money than the other guy. Most "workers" are wankers and would not last one day in management.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just want a bit of feed back to see how every one feels about the unions in the aviation industry. I am a member and feel they are useful and protect employees from corporate bullies, such as that of impulse airlines. Unions are great, here to stay and i feel all should be members. P.S. The whole purpose of this post is to gee Rod Speed up. – have fun replying rod i won’t be reviewing this post again as i know your comments are all ways bias and nasty, a reflection of the person that types them i think! Regards, Paul
To the best of my knowledge, in the US, an owner of a "regular" corporation cannot use the corporation to shield himself from the consequences of his own acts either. As an example, if an owner is driving a truck that runs over a car load of people, the heirs can sue the driver (owner) along with the corporation. My understanding, though, is that in the PC context I’ll have a broader liability for the actions of myself *or* those I supervise if I have any contact with the job. I cannot defend myself by pointing out that I wasn’t directly responsible for the negligent action.
In tort there is no limitation on the _standard_ of care, or culpability, nor is there any shield for acts of individuals (if proven), nor for the vicarious liability of employers, incorporated or unincorporated for their acts of their employees. What the corporate structure (liability limited company) can do is cap the amount that can practically be recovered before the corporation goes bankrupt and the liability is extinguished. A claimant can’t get through the corporate structure at the assets of the proprietor(s)/shareholders (director’s liability is a somewhat special case, and is still much more limited in standard and scope, than the liability of the body corporate). Where the limited company shines is in contract liability, such as audit engagements, where you mightn’t have to prove negligence at all, merely defective performance, but if you do, you can’t get through the corporation to the proprietorship at all. Note that arguments for incorporated professional practices are mostly based in the health and allied areas, where liability will be predominantly tortious neglect, or possibly statutory professional standards rather than contract: as you move more towards the business/commercial end of the spectrum you probably move more towards contractual rather than tortious liability. Seems to me that accountancy practice is at the further extremity of this business/commercial direction, compared with doctors, or even lawyers. As you may be aware, Australia has never cottoned on to the idea of government regulated CPAs: requirements to use CPAs/Chartered Accountants are imposed through the corporations law requirements for external audit to be performed by properly qualified persons, who just happen to be identified there as CPA/CA, who are accredited by the Society/Institute. John
Isn’t the main purpose of incorporating to protect oneself from having personal assets liable in the event of a corporate mess? If not, what qualifications are there in the process of creating a corporation that makes one’s personal assets vulnerable?
In a professional corporation, you do get some liability protection. That is, I’m protected if someone is injured due to nonprofessional issues–so if someone slips in our waiting room and is injured, there’s (theoretically) liability protection. But I’m not protected from *professional* liability for my own work. Professional corporations became popular primarily because of US tax rules that created certain advantages to being incorporated. Also, in theory, incorporating provides protection against the professional malpractice of other owners in my practice. I say in theory because, in general, if I had anything to do with the engagement there’s a problem. — Ed Zollars, CPA (AZ) http://www.getnet.com/~hmtzcpas
Whether they are organized as sole practitioners, partnerships or corporations is by and large not a factor.
Biggest issue, though, is that in most states you must use a professional corporation and the liability protection isn’t quite the same as it would be in a "regular" corporation. The theory was that a professional practicing the publicly licensed professional service shouldn’t be able to "shield" him/herself from malpractice liability using a form of business.
Whether they are organized as sole practitioners, partnerships or corporations is by and large not a factor. Biggest issue, though, is that in most states you must use a professional corporation and the liability protection isn’t quite the same as it would be in a "regular" corporation. The theory was that a professional practicing the publicly licensed professional service shouldn’t be able to "shield" him/herself from malpractice liability using a form of business.
We’re getting off topic – but we seem to do that from time to time. I’m not real clear on the practical differences between "professional" corporations and "regular" corporations. Since professionals can no longer practice in my state through "regular" corporations, I haven’t given a lot of thought to the subject. To the best of my knowledge, in the US, an owner of a "regular" corporation cannot use the corporation to shield himself from the consequences of his own acts either. As an example, if an owner is driving a truck that runs over a car load of people, the heirs can sue the driver (owner) along with the corporation. Jim Hudspeth
To the best of my knowledge, in the US, an owner of a "regular" corporation cannot use the corporation to shield himself from the consequences of his own acts either. As an example, if an owner is driving a truck that runs over a car load of people, the heirs can sue the driver (owner) along with the corporation.
My understanding, though, is that in the PC context I’ll have a broader liability for the actions of myself *or* those I supervise if I have any contact with the job. I cannot defend myself by pointing out that I wasn’t directly responsible for the negligent action.
I’m hoping I missed something here, with having accounting and insurance regulations liability background… Isn’t the main purpose of incorporating to protect oneself from having personal assets liable in the event of a corporate mess? If not, what qualifications are there in the process of creating a corporation that makes one’s personal assets vulnerable? Lorrele – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To the best of my knowledge, in the US, an owner of a "regular" corporation cannot use the corporation to shield himself from the consequences of his own acts either. As an example, if an owner is driving a truck that runs over a car load of people, the heirs can sue the driver (owner) along with the corporation. My understanding, though, is that in the PC context I’ll have a broader liability for the actions of myself *or* those I supervise if I have any contact with the job. I cannot defend myself by pointing out that I wasn’t directly responsible for the negligent action. In tort there is no limitation on the _standard_ of care, or culpability, nor is there any shield for acts of individuals (if proven), nor for the vicarious liability of employers, incorporated or unincorporated for their acts of their employees. What the corporate structure (liability limited company) can do is cap the amount that can practically be recovered before the corporation goes bankrupt and the liability is extinguished. A claimant can’t get through the corporate structure at the assets of the proprietor(s)/shareholders (director’s liability is a somewhat special case, and is still much more limited in standard and scope, than the liability of the body corporate). Where the limited company shines is in contract liability, such as audit engagements, where you mightn’t have to prove negligence at all, merely defective performance, but if you do, you can’t get through the corporation to the proprietorship at all. Note that arguments for incorporated professional practices are mostly based in the health and allied areas, where liability will be predominantly tortious neglect, or possibly statutory professional standards rather than contract: as you move more towards the business/commercial end of the spectrum you probably move more towards contractual rather than tortious liability. Seems to me that accountancy practice is at the further extremity of this business/commercial direction, compared with doctors, or even lawyers. As you may be aware, Australia has never cottoned on to the idea of government regulated CPAs: requirements to use CPAs/Chartered Accountants are imposed through the corporations law requirements for external audit to be performed by properly qualified persons, who just happen to be identified there as CPA/CA, who are accredited by the Society/Institute. John
According to a very recent article in ACCOUNTING TODAY, Cisco Systems is buying a 20% stake in KPMG for $1B. Actually, that news has been out for a couple of weeks. My understanding is that KPMG is going to sell a stake in its consulting division (which I’ve decided means all nonattest services) to Cisco *AND* eventually take that division public (the IPO has been rumored to be in the works for quite a while).
Amazing what one sees in the morning when things are fresh as opposed to the late evening when the light (and one’s energy) is waning. Your understanding appears to be correct, at least according to the details of the aforementioned ACCOUNTING TODAY article. The Wall Street Journal reported that the SEC is concerned about the proposed transaction although KPMG contends that the separation of the entities would remove such issues. Suffice it to say that I don’t know that we’ve heard the end of this.
ACCOUNTING TODAY pretty much says the same thing. From a practical standpoint, for my practice, I don’t see any real impact of this transaction.
The impact could be huge. If the SEC sticks to its guns and forces a separation of entities (audit / consulting), and other large firms follow KPMG’s lead, we might in fact move back toward a more traditional structure regarding auditor independence. After all, KPMG seems to have long ago given up calling themselves a CPA firm <grin.
True enough, along with all the other Big X and at least some of the so called 2nd tier. An honest separation just might change that, however. Jim Hudspeth
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t the main purpose of incorporating to protect oneself from having personal assets liable in the event of a corporate mess? If not, what qualifications are there in the process of creating a corporation that makes one’s personal assets vulnerable? In a professional corporation, you do get some liability protection. That is, I’m protected if someone is injured due to nonprofessional issues–so if someone slips in our waiting room and is injured, there’s (theoretically) liability protection. snip I don’t even get that. While I practice through a corporation, my wife and I also own the building I use for an office. An injured client could sue both my corporation and my corporation’s landlord (me).
snip But, in a lot of jurisdictions outside US, could only recover, in total from all the suits, the amount of damage she or he suffered. The point of the corporate veil, is that your operating corporation is a $2 company, so when it gets a judgement against it, it promptly goes insolvent, and because you and your wife have made sure that you don’t own any assets, with your house, car etc etc being owned by a further corporation/trust/family members/good friends etc, you also can go insolvent, and retire to the Cayman Islands. All you might stand to lose would be the building: say a $400,000 asset against a suit of say $1.5m. BTW, in my state of New South Wales in Australia, the government has introduced a statutory professional liability limitation scheme, which has been taken up by Accountants. This allows professionals who belong to a professional body which enacts a code of conduct, and provides a public complaints and dispute resolution mechanism, subject to holding a specified amount of professional indemnity insurance, to cap their liability at the insured amount. Each professional body has to register their scheme with government. Regards John
Isn’t the main purpose of incorporating to protect oneself from having personal assets liable in the event of a corporate mess? If not, what qualifications are there in the process of creating a corporation that makes one’s personal assets vulnerable? In a professional corporation, you do get some liability protection. That is, I’m protected if someone is injured due to nonprofessional issues–so if someone slips in our waiting room and is injured, there’s (theoretically) liability protection.
I don’t even get that. While I practice through a corporation, my wife and I also own the building I use for an office. An injured client could sue both my corporation and my corporation’s landlord (me). But I’m not protected from *professional* liability for my own work. Professional corporations became popular primarily because of US tax rules that created certain advantages to being incorporated. Also, in theory, incorporating provides protection against the professional malpractice of other owners in my practice. I say in theory because, in general, if I had anything to do with the engagement there’s a problem.
That is the theory, but I sure wouldn’t want to rely on it. I can easily see some judge ruling that a professional is liable if he / she was involved OR SHOULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED. There is simply no substitute for diligence (and some insurance). Jim Hudspeth
If the SEC sticks to its guns and forces a separation of entities (audit / consulting), and other large firms follow KPMG’s lead, we might in fact move back toward a more traditional structure regarding auditor independence. I think the SEC’s concern is that KPMG *won’t* really separate the two entities, but rather will want to keep an interest in the spun-out entity.
Exactly! And with good reason. The short term benefits of controlling an audit appendage are such that KPMG Consulting will most likely do everything in its power to hang on to the audit arm. The risks to the public interest are equally obvious. It will be an interesting show.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip I know traditionally accounting firms have clung to some sort of mystical status as partnerships and not registered companies, and the various accounting institutions may have some arcane rules about independent professionals, but at the base of it what’s wrong with accounting services being provided by a public company. Maybe nothing, however I have this quaint notion that we should ALL live by the rules. If we don’t like our rules, we should change them BEFORE we change our arrangements. I realize that in this regard I may be a bit of a dinosaur. OK, I get the drift from other posts in this thread that the concern is about having attest audit and consulting under the one roof. Over several years in a government audit institution and internal audit in a government corporation, I saw quite a bit of Bix X consulting and auditing work, and can’t say I saw any real or emergent problems of conflict of interest beetween consultant advice and audit, but we were always pretty careful to keep consulting advice engagements independent from audit engagements, (for example by engaging different firms for different tasks) and had good accountants and on-payroll auditors who were capable of making independent judgements. I guess its a bit different for a commercial firm which has been foolish enough to loose the independence and skills required of a sound internal audit presence. On another note, unkind persons might suggest that CPA rules which bear on the nature of entities which may engage in or offer services are an anti-competitive and unwarranted restraint of trade. Certainly the Australian Trade Practices Commission, in reports published in 1990 and 1992 indicated that it was difficult to justify restrictions on the existence of ‘incorporated practices’, that is professionals offering their services through registered companies, rather than as sole traders or partnerships. John
John, Thanks for participating. Your Australian perspective clearly adds to this discussion. In the US, CPAs are licensed by and supposedly regulated by the various states. It has been several years since I looked, so this may be outdated, however to the best of my knowledge most of our states have laws requiring CPA firms to be owned by CPAs. Whether they are organized as sole practitioners, partnerships or corporations is by and large not a factor. Jim Hudspeth
snip I know traditionally accounting firms have clung to some sort of mystical status as partnerships and not registered companies, and the various accounting institutions may have some arcane rules about independent professionals, but at the base of it what’s wrong with accounting services being provided by a public company. Maybe nothing, however I have this quaint notion that we should ALL live by the rules. If we don’t like our rules, we should change them BEFORE we change our arrangements. I realize that in this regard I may be a bit of a dinosaur.
OK, I get the drift from other posts in this thread that the concern is about having attest audit and consulting under the one roof. Over several years in a government audit institution and internal audit in a government corporation, I saw quite a bit of Bix X consulting and auditing work, and can’t say I saw any real or emergent problems of conflict of interest beetween consultant advice and audit, but we were always pretty careful to keep consulting advice engagements independent from audit engagements, (for example by engaging different firms for different tasks) and had good accountants and on-payroll auditors who were capable of making independent judgements. I guess its a bit different for a commercial firm which has been foolish enough to loose the independence and skills required of a sound internal audit presence. On another note, unkind persons might suggest that CPA rules which bear on the nature of entities which may engage in or offer services are an anti-competitive and unwarranted restraint of trade. Certainly the Australian Trade Practices Commission, in reports published in 1990 and 1992 indicated that it was difficult to justify restrictions on the existence of ‘incorporated practices’, that is professionals offering their services through registered companies, rather than as sole traders or partnerships. John
If the SEC sticks to its guns and forces a separation of entities (audit / consulting), and other large firms follow KPMG’s lead, we might in fact move back toward a more traditional structure regarding auditor independence.
I think the SEC’s concern is that KPMG *won’t* really separate the two entities, but rather will want to keep an interest in the spun-out entity.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – According to a very recent article in ACCOUNTING TODAY, Cisco Systems is buying a 20% stake in KPMG for $1B. snip Specifically, will the SEC permit KPMG to continue as the auditor of public firms with a public firm owning 20% of its ?? (shares – equity??)? As another Australian might say "please explain?" I know traditionally accounting firms have clung to some sort of mystical status as partnerships and not registered companies, and the various accounting institutions may have some arcane rules about independent professionals, but at the base of it what’s wrong with accounting services being provided by a public company.
Maybe nothing, however I have this quaint notion that we should ALL live by the rules. If we don’t like our rules, we should change them BEFORE we change our arrangements. I realize that in this regard I may be a bit of a dinosaur. It seems to me a very long bow to suggest that by being a public company an accouning firm could somehow develop some sort of interest in the welfare of public companies at large which would be in conflict with the ethical and effective audit of some particular public company.
I don’t think I suggested that – I certainly did not intend to suggest that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would you care to help me along here? John
According to a very recent article in ACCOUNTING TODAY, Cisco Systems is buying a 20% stake in KPMG for $1B.
Actually, that news has been out for a couple of weeks. My understanding is that KPMG is going to sell a stake in its consulting division (which I’ve decided means all nonattest services) to Cisco *AND* eventually take that division public (the IPO has been rumored to be in the works for quite a while). The Wall Street Journal reported that the SEC is concerned about the proposed transaction although KPMG contends that the separation of the entities would remove such issues. Suffice it to say that I don’t know that we’ve heard the end of this. From a practical standpoint, for my practice, I don’t see any real impact of this transaction. After all, KPMG seems to have long ago given up calling themselves a CPA firm <grin.
According to a very recent article in ACCOUNTING TODAY, Cisco Systems is buying a 20% stake in KPMG for $1B. This appears a bit audacious – even by KPMG standards. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Specifically, will the SEC permit KPMG to continue as the auditor of public firms with a public firm owning 20% of its ?? (shares – equity??)? Jim Hudspeth, CPA Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
According to a very recent article in ACCOUNTING TODAY, Cisco Systems is buying a 20% stake in KPMG for $1B. snip Specifically, will the SEC permit KPMG to continue as the auditor of public firms with a public firm owning 20% of its ?? (shares – equity??)?
As another Australian might say "please explain?" I know traditionally accounting firms have clung to some sort of mystical status as partnerships and not registered companies, and the various accounting institutions may have some arcane rules about independent professionals, but at the base of it what’s wrong with accounting services being provided by a public company. It seems to me a very long bow to suggest that by being a public company an accouning firm could somehow develop some sort of interest in the welfare of public companies at large which would be in conflict with the ethical and effective audit of some particular public company. Would you care to help me along here? John
Our base Accounting system is available FREE until April 15th. 32 bit software. Single user or Network Ready! No user license fee. Y2K compliant! General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Order Entry, Inventory/Purchasing Other Modules available. Multiple entities and cost centers. Setup as many companies as you like (datasets). Demo installs with two datasets, one with demo info to play with and another for your company (real data). Batch Processing Custom Modifications available. See our website for details. http://www.pbyc.com Thanks!
Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our base Accounting system is available FREE until April 15th. 32 bit software. Single user or Network Ready! No user license fee. Y2K compliant! General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Order Entry, Inventory/Purchasing Other Modules available. Multiple entities and cost centers. Setup as many companies as you like (datasets). Demo installs with two datasets, one with demo info to play with and another for your company (real data). Batch Processing Custom Modifications available. See our website for details. http://www.pbyc.com Thanks!
Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10
Must be you, I got my copy. Carl Navarro – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our base Accounting system is available FREE until April 15th. 32 bit software. Single user or Network Ready! No user license fee. Y2K compliant! General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Order Entry, Inventory/Purchasing Other Modules available. Multiple entities and cost centers. Setup as many companies as you like (datasets). Demo installs with two datasets, one with demo info to play with and another for your company (real data). Batch Processing Custom Modifications available. See our website for details. http://www.pbyc.com Thanks!
I couldn’t get it either. What I got was the following: Not Found The requested URL /Visual Page/Style Sheets/executive.css was not found on this server. In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10 Must be you, I got my copy. Carl Navarro Our base Accounting system is available FREE until April 15th. 32 bit software. Single user or Network Ready! No user license fee. Y2K compliant! General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Order Entry, Inventory/Purchasing Other Modules available. Multiple entities and cost centers. Setup as many companies as you like (datasets). Demo installs with two datasets, one with demo info to play with and another for your company (real data). Batch Processing Custom Modifications available. See our website for details. http://www.pbyc.com Thanks!
Must be your connection or somewhere in between. The server has been up 24X7. Craig – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10
I couldn’t get it either. What I got was the following:
What a mystery. I clicked on the link below, got the homepage, clicked on download demos, and the like to the accounting software (about 8 megs) and it came in just fine. Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not Found The requested URL /Visual Page/Style Sheets/executive.css was not found on this server. In article Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10 Must be you, I got my copy. Carl Navarro Our base Accounting system is available FREE until April 15th. 32 bit software. Single user or Network Ready! No user license fee. Y2K compliant! General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Order Entry, Inventory/Purchasing Other Modules available. Multiple entities and cost centers. Setup as many companies as you like (datasets). Demo installs with two datasets, one with demo info to play with and another for your company (real data). Batch Processing Custom Modifications available. See our website for details. http://www.pbyc.com Thanks!
I got it, but loading it down was an impossibility – it must be the slowest load down in history Peter French – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I couldn’t get it either. What I got was the following: Not Found The requested URL /Visual Page/Style Sheets/executive.css was not found on this server. In article et Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10 Must be you, I got my copy. Carl Navarro Our base Accounting system is available FREE until April 15th. 32 bit software. Single user or Network Ready! No user license fee. Y2K compliant! General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Order Entry, Inventory/Purchasing Other Modules available. Multiple entities and cost centers. Setup as many companies as you like (datasets). Demo installs with two datasets, one with demo info to play with and another for your company (real data). Batch Processing Custom Modifications available. See our website for details. http://www.pbyc.com Thanks!
In article I couldn’t get it either. What I got was the following: What a mystery. I clicked on the link below, got the homepage, clicked on download demos, and the like to the accounting software (about 8 megs) and it came in just fine. Carl
This gets real interesting. I sent the URL to my wife’s computer – where it worked just fine. My machine is NT, Netscape, Netcom. My wife’s is WIN98, AOL, ATT. Go figure. Jim Hudspeth, CPA
I haven’t had problems loading anything else…connection seems to be just fine…..oh well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Must be your connection or somewhere in between. The server has been up 24X7. Craig Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10
I have had the same problem essentially – in my case the download time would take me past Year 2000, but that is the only download I have a problem with. Peter French – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t had problems loading anything else…connection seems to be just fine…..oh well. Must be your connection or somewhere in between. The server has been up 24X7. Craig Might be nice if this link actually worked, which it hasn’t the last 10
Well, things have been INSANE around my work and home lately, so I’ve not been posting much or in the chat — plus, up until like Monday, I was eating probably 40 carbs a day, so at least I maintained, I guess. Since Monday, 2 more pounds down. I seem to lose pretty good if I stick to it — usually 3 to 4 pounds every 2 weeks. We are moving in early December (to where? WE DON’T KNOW — icck! Either Austin, Houston, Dallas or Memphis). God, I hate Texas — I’m hoping for Memphis — no offense to Texans, I just don’t like any of those cities much). In fact, I WANT to stay in Honolulu — fat chance. Besides, I’m tired and in a very bad mood, so I HATE everything right now! The person we got to replace me at work didn’t work out, so we let her go as of this morning, so now I gotta start over with someone else and only THREE weeks before I leave the company. I do EVERYTHING in the office — accounting, computer tech, taxes, secretarial, receptionist, you name it, so it’s NOT an easy training thing. What do I want? I want a BIG bowl of sphgetti and a big old hunk of sourdough bread and to wallow in a really good movie. But NO, I gotta clean up so we can show the apartment to people. Why me? It it weren’t for protein bars, I think I’d own stock in Hershey’s these days. I know I know, the bars aren’t supposed to be used before maintenance, but when I watch it, it doesn’t affect me. Beside, it’s either that or that bag of kisses that is calling my name……. Pure Protein, here I come — gotta love that 20% off on the first Tuesday of the month that GNC does! I guess I’m lucky like that. Nutrasweet has no affect on me either. I LOVE that new Pepsi One stuff. Talk about a life saver this week! I’m sticking in there and haven’t eaten that spegehetti (oh hell, I can’t spell it — whatever, noodles covered in tomatoey sauce), in fact, I threw out whatever tomatoes and pasta I had in the house so I could completely avoid it. Hahaha…. there’s an Italian restaurant by the mall, I even drove around the long way to the mall so I didn’t even have to drive by it. I’m either really determined or completely nuts. (Both?) Lately I’ve been living off of chicken salad and tuna salad on lettuece and Wasa crackers. And LOTS of turkey bacon. I can’t seem to get enough of that stuff. Oh well, I feel better after banging on the keys for a while — when you are really sad/mad/pissy do you "type hard" too? LOL. I swear, I do that. Oh well, at least I didn’t break a nail, then I’d be pissed for real! Thanks for listening! Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!
Hi Candie, Did someone say you aren’t supposed to use the bars before maintenance? I guess I hadn’t heard that rule! Oops:) I just discovered the Atkins chocolate coconut bars and I am a convert! (from the Pure Protein PB bars- they’re great but with 9 grams of carbs and 280 calories, I always feel guilty eating them) The new Atkins bars have only 2-just 2- grams per bar. Anyway, I would like to know about this maintenance question when you have a moment- or anyone else too! Victoria 192-154-150 lc this time since 7-8-98 76 pounds gone since 2-96!
Did someone say you aren’t supposed to use the bars before maintenance? I guess I hadn’t heard that rule! Oops:) Anyway, I would like to know about this maintenance question when you have a moment- or anyone else too!
I’m not really sure, but from what I can gather, it has do with the nuts in some of them as well as the artifical sweetners. Maybe someone else can enlighten us I just discovered the Atkins chocolate coconut bars and I am a convert! (from the Pure Protein PB bars- they’re great but with 9 grams of carbs and 280 calories, I always feel guilty eating them) The new Atkins bars have only 2-just 2- grams per bar.
The only Atkins bar I can even stand are the Brownie ones, but they aren’t that great. I get a major headache from something that Atkins uses — nutrasweet doesn’t bother me and I have no trouble with the Chocolate Deluxe Pure Protein bars. I like the PB ones, but just not as good to me. Plus I don’t care for Soy Protein, but I actually really like whey protein. I guess with everything, your mileage may (and does!) vary! At least I feel better than I did when I first wrote this. I was VERY bitchy. I just sat down and felt utterly sorry for myself for 15 minutes and then got up and got on with it. Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!
I don’t think there is any "rule" about protein bars. They are like everything else, that is YMMV. If they fit in your carb allowance and don’t impede your progess then go for them. If not then perhaps you are better off without them. — Debbie Cusick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Candie, Did someone say you aren’t supposed to use the bars before maintenance? I guess I hadn’t heard that rule! Oops:)
hang on candie! THANKS FOR VOTING! NOW CENSURE, AND MOVE ON! http://www.moveon.org Low carb? Low calorie? Low fat? Low glycemic? 50yr/female/5′10"/wearing size 14 jeans! I am learning HOW to eat, WHAT to eat, and WHY I eat! http://www.winternet.com/~terrym/sobriety.html Read and Post, everyday! Rosie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, things have been INSANE around my work and home lately, so I’ve not been posting much or in the chat — plus, up until like Monday, I was eating probably 40 carbs a day, so at least I maintained, I guess. Since Monday, 2 more pounds down. I seem to lose pretty good if I stick to it — usually 3 to 4 pounds every 2 weeks. We are moving in early December (to where? WE DON’T KNOW — icck! Either Austin, Houston, Dallas or Memphis). God, I hate Texas — I’m hoping for Memphis — no offense to Texans, I just don’t like any of those cities much). In fact, I WANT to stay in Honolulu — fat chance. Besides, I’m tired and in a very bad mood, so I HATE everything right now! The person we got to replace me at work didn’t work out, so we let her go as of this morning, so now I gotta start over with someone else and only THREE weeks before I leave the company. I do EVERYTHING in the office — accounting, computer tech, taxes, secretarial, receptionist, you name it, so it’s NOT an easy training thing. What do I want? I want a BIG bowl of sphgetti and a big old hunk of sourdough bread and to wallow in a really good movie. But NO, I gotta clean up so we can show the apartment to people. Why me? It it weren’t for protein bars, I think I’d own stock in Hershey’s these days. I know I know, the bars aren’t supposed to be used before maintenance, but when I watch it, it doesn’t affect me. Beside, it’s either that or that bag of kisses that is calling my name……. Pure Protein, here I come — gotta love that 20% off on the first Tuesday of the month that GNC does! I guess I’m lucky like that. Nutrasweet has no affect on me either. I LOVE that new Pepsi One stuff. Talk about a life saver this week! I’m sticking in there and haven’t eaten that spegehetti (oh hell, I can’t spell it — whatever, noodles covered in tomatoey sauce), in fact, I threw out whatever tomatoes and pasta I had in the house so I could completely avoid it. Hahaha…. there’s an Italian restaurant by the mall, I even drove around the long way to the mall so I didn’t even have to drive by it. I’m either really determined or completely nuts. (Both?) Lately I’ve been living off of chicken salad and tuna salad on lettuece and Wasa crackers. And LOTS of turkey bacon. I can’t seem to get enough of that stuff. Oh well, I feel better after banging on the keys for a while — when you are really sad/mad/pissy do you "type hard" too? LOL. I swear, I do that. Oh well, at least I didn’t break a nail, then I’d be pissed for real! Thanks for listening! Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!
Well, things have been INSANE around my work and home lately, so I’ve not been posting much or in the chat — plus, up until like Monday, I was eating probably 40 carbs a day, so at least I maintained, I guess. Since Monday, 2 more pounds down. I seem to lose pretty good if I stick to it — usually 3 to 4 pounds every 2 weeks.
You have lost 20 pounds though! That’s nothing to sneeze at! I will be really happy to see the 20 pound mark come and go! We are moving in early December (to where? WE DON’T KNOW — icck! Either Austin, Houston, Dallas or Memphis). God, I hate Texas — I’m hoping for Memphis — no offense to Texans, I just don’t like any of those cities much). In fact, I WANT to stay in Honolulu — fat chance. Besides, I’m tired and in a very bad mood, so I HATE everything right now!
I know how that goes… I just got done moving too. (However, just from Upper to Lower Michigan.) But that is a big deal to move to (or from) Hawaii.. I have two friends who just moved to Maui in the summer. They love it there, but it was a big pain in the ass to get there. And I know how it feels to hate everything too. I went through a lot of that this year, and still am going through that. It seems like life is still pretty unsettled, but it at least is more settled than it was when I was at the stage of moving that you are at. The person we got to replace me at work didn’t work out, so we let her go as of this morning, so now I gotta start over with someone else and only THREE weeks before I leave the company. I do EVERYTHING in the office — accounting, computer tech, taxes, secretarial, receptionist, you name it, so it’s NOT an easy training thing.
Now THAT is a pain… What do I want? I want a BIG bowl of sphgetti and a big old hunk of sourdough bread and to wallow in a really good movie. But NO, I gotta clean up so we can show the apartment to people. Why me?
Me too, and a lot of the rest of us… we have all been there! Sometimes it seems like it’s never gonna end, but eventually it gets straightened out. I wound up stopping low-carbing when I was moving and the damage was minimal, but I really think that is a huge ymmv thing. There are many days when I could eat Little Debbie Swiss cake rolls all day, breakfast, lunch and dinner. It it weren’t for protein bars, I think I’d own stock in Hershey’s these days. I know I know, the bars aren’t supposed to be used before maintenance, but when I watch it, it doesn’t affect me. Beside, it’s either that or that bag of kisses that is calling my name……. Pure Protein, here I come — gotta love that 20% off on the first Tuesday of the month that GNC does! I guess I’m lucky like that. Nutrasweet has no affect on me either. I LOVE that new Pepsi One stuff. Talk about a life saver this week!
I haven’t tried Pepsi-One yet. I liked Diet Pepsi, so I hope I like Pepsi-One. However, the grocery store I go to has been having a lot of Coke sales, so it’s been Diet Coke for me. Caffiene and artificial sweetners don’t seem to affect me either. I’m sticking in there and haven’t eaten that spegehetti (oh hell, I can’t spell it — whatever, noodles covered in tomatoey sauce), in fact, I threw out whatever tomatoes and pasta I had in the house so I could completely avoid it. Hahaha…. there’s an Italian restaurant by the mall, I even drove around the long way to the mall so I didn’t even have to drive by it. I’m either really determined or completely nuts. (Both?)
You gotta do what you gotta do! I’m proud of you for doing what you needed to stick with it! Definitely determined, not nuts! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately I’ve been living off of chicken salad and tuna salad on lettuece and Wasa crackers. And LOTS of turkey bacon. I can’t seem to get enough of that stuff. Oh well, I feel better after banging on the keys for a while — when you are really sad/mad/pissy do you "type hard" too? LOL. I swear, I do that. Oh well, at least I didn’t break a nail, then I’d be pissed for real! Thanks for listening! Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!
Isn’t this a good place to just come and vent? I don’t type hard, but I do type faster and tend to make a lot more typos when I’m mad! Hang in there, most likely you will find that a lot of people here understand! Take care, Liz 202-188-140 — Nothing warms the lap (or heart) like a good cat. In memory of Kitten (June 1981-April 1998) ^..^ The above address has been altered to avoid junk mail. To email, please use: Thank you!
Hi Liz, Thank you so much for the encouragement, like I said before, I just let myself feel utterly sorry for myself then got my ass up and did what I needed to do. Sounds silly I guess, but it’s always worked for me. Of course, later you feel like a child, lol, but what the heck You have lost 20 pounds though! That’s nothing to sneeze at! I will be really happy to see the 20 pound mark come and go!
I know. I got on and off that scale like 20 times to make sure. LOL. At least it’s moving. Said one more down this morning, but I don’t trust it until it says it two days in a row (yeah, I’m one of those that obsess if I don’t get on the scale every morning, but at least I don’t let the little fluctuations bother me too much). I know how that goes… I just got done moving too. (However, just from Upper to Lower Michigan.) But that is a big deal to move to (or from) Hawaii.. I have two friends who just moved to Maui in the summer. They love it there, but it was a big pain in the ass to get there. And I know how it feels to hate everything too. I went through a lot of that this year, and still am going through that. It seems like life is still pretty unsettled, but it at least is more settled than it was when I was at the stage of moving that you are at.
Hehehe…. I guess if I knew WHERE we are moving to, it would help somewhat. :) Michigan, eh? I bet it’s starting to get cold up there Me too, and a lot of the rest of us… we have all been there! Sometimes it seems like it’s never gonna end, but eventually it gets straightened out. I wound up stopping low-carbing when I was moving and the damage was minimal, but I really think that is a huge ymmv thing. There are many days when I could eat Little Debbie Swiss cake rolls all day, breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Oh gawd, I LOVE those things. I don’t even LOOK at them in the store anymore because they are one of my vices and I KNOW that. Of course, I love chocolate, and the Swiss Rolls…. yuuummmm….. as for the move, I hope to stay mainly low carb the whole time. It’ll be hard though because I’ve been married for 6 years and only met his family once — and that was while we were engaged — and his mom I saw a year ago too. I’m already nervous enough and YOU had to mention the swiss rolls…. geez, thanks…. (Just kidding!!!) I haven’t tried Pepsi-One yet. I liked Diet Pepsi, so I hope I like Pepsi-One. However, the grocery store I go to has been having a lot of Coke sales, so it’s been Diet Coke for me. Caffiene and artificial sweetners don’t seem to affect me either.
You can still taste the AS in Pepsi One, but it’s not as strong — Nutrasweet doesn’t bother me, but I don’t really care for the taste all that much. Isn’t this a good place to just come and vent? I don’t type hard, but I do type faster and tend to make a lot more typos when I’m mad!
LOL….. weird how that works. I do that at work too. The guys can tell when I’m getting mad (I work for a construction company and I’m the only female in the company) because I start typing like crazy and really hard too Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!
I’m the treasurer of the San Diego RS. I’ve been using Quicken to account for financial activity. I am an accountant by profession and have discovered that I can’t trust the results coming out on Quicken reports. Suffice it to say that the numbers generated on one report do not tie to numbers generated on another report for the same period. As a numbers person, I have a real problem with this. I’ve surfed the web a little looking for software for non-profits but we can’t spend $1000+ for new software. Any ideas/advice anyone? Thanks. Julia
I’m the treasurer of the San Diego RS. I’ve been using Quicken to account for financial activity. I am an accountant by profession and have discovered that I can’t trust the results coming out on Quicken reports.
Hi Julia, Have you called Intuit? I would imagine them to be very interested in fixing report errors. Suffice it to say that the numbers generated on one report do not tie to numbers generated on another report for the same period. As a numbers person, I have a real problem with this.
No doubt! :) I’ve surfed the web a little looking for software for non-profits but we can’t spend $1000+ for new software. Any ideas/advice anyone? Thanks.
I run Quicken for home, QuickBooks for business. About the only reports I run are P&L, and balance sheets, though. Julia
– Joel Mattox Saratoga, CA USDA Zone 9 http://www.randomaccesssolutions.com/rosehelper.htm
I’m the treasurer of the San Diego RS. I’ve been using Quicken to account for financial activity. I am an accountant by profession and have discovered that I can’t trust the results coming out on Quicken reports. Suffice it to say that the numbers generated on one report do not tie to numbers generated on another report for the same period. As a numbers person, I have a real problem with this. I’ve surfed the web a little looking for software for non-profits but we can’t spend $1000+ for new software. Any ideas/advice anyone? Thanks.
Do they still make Peachtree Accounting software? Used it a few years back, and seemed very standard/straightforward, if you’re an accountant you should feel right at home. Cost around $80 on sale. I’ve never had any trouble with Quicken. You’re getting math errors? You don’t have a 5 year old pentium, do you? Patrick Burke Project Manager Biological Sciences Division Information Services The University of Chicago
I’m the treasurer of the San Diego RS. I’ve been using Quicken to account for financial activity. I am an accountant by profession and have discovered that I can’t trust the results coming out on Quicken reports. Suffice it to say that the numbers generated on one report do not tie to numbers generated on another report for the same period. As a numbers person, I have a real problem with this. I’ve surfed the web a little looking for software for non-profits but we can’t spend $1000+ for new software. Any ideas/advice anyone? Thanks. Julia
I, too, loathe Quicken and Quickbooks. I *don’t* find them accountant friendly! I’d suggest Peachtree as a pretty comprehensive software group of packages. The last time I reasearched inexpensive accounting software, it was right at the top. — Lynn Thomson, CPA San Antonio, TX – Zone 8b http://www.txdirect.net/users/lthomson/default.html
a little looking for software for non-profits but we can’t spend $1000+ for new software. Any ideas/advice anyone? Thanks. I, too, loathe Quicken and Quickbooks. I *don’t* find them accountant friendly! I’d suggest Peachtree as a pretty comprehensive software group of packages. The last time I reasearched inexpensive accounting software, it was right at the top.
Lynn Thomson, CPA San Antonio, TX – Zone 8b Coming from a CPA, I take that as high praise. I’ve never used it but have downloaded eval copy from Peachtree site. I better hurry up and spend what’s left in my budget before year-end. Thanks, Julia
writes I’m the treasurer of the San Diego RS. I’ve been using Quicken to account for financial activity. I am an accountant by profession and have discovered that I can’t trust the results coming out on Quicken reports. Suffice it to say that the numbers generated on one report do not tie to numbers generated on another report for the same period. As a numbers person, I have a real problem with this. I’ve surfed the web a little looking for software for non-profits but we can’t spend $1000+ for new software. Any ideas/advice anyone? Thanks. Julia
I used to use Quicken version 3.0 for our business and after about three years of use I started getting strange results in the reports, too. I then upgraded to QuickBooks and this seems to be working ok. Importing my old Quicken data was fairly painless. I put my problem with Quicken down to the fact that it wasn’t up to handling a large amount of historical data. Don’t know if this is the problem you are experiencing… Nick Watts Dynamic Data Design Limited Bespoke Windows Software Development The Business & Innovation Centre and Angel Way Creators of StopWatch Bradford, West Yorkshire The Windows Timesheet System BD7 1BX United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0)1274 841314 http://www.dddesign.demon.co.uk/ Fax: +44 (0)1274 841315