Question:

Most Church’s have no need for GAAP financials. Most members of the congregation would find them unintelligible.

Oh, I completely agree.  That’s why if it doesn’t point to a deposit, or to a check, they don’t want to hear about it. I can picture the old folks thinking I’m nuts for taking the congregants pledge cards and booking 1/12th of their pledge as "income" when the check hasn’t been received for that month.  Then what?  Oh yes, an "accounts receivable" where I send them "invoices" with "past due" charges for being late.  I’ll be fired before Easter. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

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not you Paul

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amen

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Sounds like a wise approach Bill. Ken Russell

| I’m the CFO of a church with a building, debt, and a handful of | employees.  We don’t have anything in our Accounts Payable.  We’re | careful to record expenses in the month occured.  I issue cash basis | financials to our elders each month to avoid confusion. The emphasis | is comparing income to expense and to our budget.  At year end I take | depreciation, accrue any outstanding bills, and true up payroll tax | withholding. | | | Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in | some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. | | Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately | reflects the financial state of the church. | | Ken Russell | | | | | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit |  orgs | | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | | | | | — | | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | | taxman at negia.net | | | | | | | — | Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. | Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

You can still maintain a Balance Sheet that shows the true Assets by making the appropriate entries to the applicable Asset, Liability and Equity accounts, including Depreciation to reflect the net book value of the Assets. You can have the best of both worlds.

I have discussed this with my father, who was involved with development of public reporting policy in the Canadian government, lo many years ago.   What they determined for government purposes was that not only would they use a straight ‘cash basis,’ but they wouldn’t even try to evaluate "assets," as such.  If money was spent building a building, then that’s an "expenditure." For their purposes, it would be downright counterproductive to try to set up an accounting system to try to track the values of assets, because that would lead to the futile pursuit of attaching values to sorts of assets that didn’t involve financial transactions.   For instance, if you’re tracking the ‘value’ of a government building in Montreal, it will become tempting to also try to track the value of the land (if it’s prime land, that could grow precipitously), and if you do that, it’s natural to start trying to track the value of Crown lands out in the wilderness.   Down that road lies madness, so the conclusion was that the way to go was to track the assets, but at some ‘nominal value’ (like the not-uncommon $1) so that there’s at least enough tracking going on that they’re watching for titles to property and such. I would be happy to argue that this is also a good policy for a church or other charitable organization. A church shouldn’t be buying a building in order to get "an asset;" they should buy it in order to _use_ it.  The value being in the use of it, it’s only relevant to do a valuation if the members are thinking of selling the building to fund the purchase of another building. That’s a very "unbusiness-like" way to look at things, but since governments and churches _aren’t_ businesses, I don’t see that as wrong. The "finance guys" on the church board interpreted CICA standards as indicating that they had to use "business-like" accounting standards for this, which obviously varies from my position.  I see that as an area where we’re permitted to disagree without anyone being accused of heresy .  They aren’t interested in being pushed, and I don’t see it being a "fight" I particularly want to pursue. — http://cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."  – Philip Greenspun

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – her beard: You can still maintain a Balance Sheet that shows the true Assets by making the appropriate entries to the applicable Asset, Liability and Equity accounts, including Depreciation to reflect the net book value of the Assets. You can have the best of both worlds. I have discussed this with my father, who was involved with development of public reporting policy in the Canadian government, lo many years ago. What they determined for government purposes was that not only would they use a straight ‘cash basis,’ but they wouldn’t even try to evaluate "assets," as such.  If money was spent building a building, then that’s an "expenditure."

That is what I proposed in my posting was precisely that. "Establish a Disbursement Section for "Capital Expenditures" with accounts for "Automotive Equipment", "Building", etc." The Disbusement section can also be described as the "Expenditure" section. For their purposes, it would be downright counterproductive to try to set up an accounting system to try to track the values of assets, because that would lead to the futile pursuit of attaching values to sorts of assets that didn’t involve financial transactions.

At no point did I suggest tracking the (fluctuating) values of Assets. Rather, I stated that one can record the true Assets (i.e. cost based, less Depreciation where applicable) "to reflect the net book value of the Assets". For instance, if you’re tracking the ‘value’ of a government building in Montreal, it will become tempting to also try to track the value of the land (if it’s prime land, that could grow precipitously), and if you do that, it’s natural to start trying to track the value of Crown lands out in the wilderness. Down that road lies madness, so the conclusion was that the way to go was to track the assets, but at some ‘nominal value’ (like the not-uncommon $1) so that there’s at least enough tracking going on that they’re watching for titles to property and such.

Madness can occur when one misreads a post and then argues against a point that was not made. I would be happy to argue that this is also a good policy for a church or other charitable organization. A church shouldn’t be buying a building in order to get "an asset;" they should buy it in order to _use_ it.  The value being in the use of it, it’s only relevant to do a valuation if the members are thinking of selling the building to fund the purchase of another building.

Before you know it you’ll suggest that obtaining donations is not "to get ‘an asset’" but "to_use_it; therefore, we should not show the Bank balance in the Balance Sheet either. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s a very "unbusiness-like" way to look at things, but since governments and churches _aren’t_ businesses, I don’t see that as wrong. The "finance guys" on the church board interpreted CICA standards as indicating that they had to use "business-like" accounting standards for this, which obviously varies from my position.  I see that as an area where we’re permitted to disagree without anyone being accused of heresy .  They aren’t interested in being pushed, and I don’t see it being a "fight" I particularly want to pursue. — http://cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."  – Philip Greenspun

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We are a medium sized Southern Baptist church hoping (aren’t we all) to grow in the not too distant future.  We average about 150 on Sunday morning, with an actual membership file of about 600.  We currently are using a freebie we got a long time ago from ACS for our membership data, Quicken for our check book, Lotus Advantage for our contributions, and Lotus 1-2-3 for our balance sheets and budget reports.  I find it a very inefficient use of my time and our computer’s memory to be using 4 programs to do what one program can do. I began looking for a church management program about a month after I started.  I have been searching for a program that will integrate all four things.  For example, the ACS company has 3 other modules we can purchase that will tie all three functions (accounting, membership, and contributions) together.  But, I have done some research and have discovered that it costs about $800 per year to keep-up after the first year.  Not exactly my idea of good stewardship. There are several other programs I have looked into and am seriously considering.  Since all of these programs are quite expensive ($1000 or more) I don’t want to head into this half blind.  I have been trying to track down some kind of consumer report or another, but haven’t had any luck yet.  ACS is not the way I want to go.  I’ve also looked at CDM (CMD??), ShepherdStaff, and Logos.  There are others, but these three are the ones I’ve narrowed it down to. All this to say that I would appreciate any advice to help me out here. Also, any ideas on how to get a committee of people who think I should just go back to paper and pencil to agree to go with me on this?? Heather — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: alt.accounting financials and a program called "Membership Plus" (http://www.memplushome.com/v8/index.cfm) for our membership database & contribution records. This is working very well for us. Currently we have an active membership of around 250, actually on the rolls about 400.  Some of your accounting questions may also involve knowing a little more about your church. For instance, I am Methodist and our "assets" (buildings, vans, etc.) do not appear on our local church financials. Even though the local congregation pays for them and has some control over them, they are actually "owned" by our conference. Do you have any experience with these church management programs?  Are they worth their salt?  If so, do you have one you prefer or advice on which to avoid?? Heather Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.accounting I’m the CFO of a church with a building, debt, and a handful of employees.  We don’t have anything in our Accounts Payable.  We’re careful to record expenses in the month occured.  I issue cash basis financials to our elders each month to avoid confusion. The emphasis is comparing income to expense and to our budget.  At year end I take depreciation, accrue any outstanding bills, and true up payroll tax withholding. Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Ken Russell | | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | — | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | taxman at negia.net | | — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). N Owen To reply, please change "ONE" to numeral

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – into her beard: Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Building depreciation is a particularly odd-ball "expense" to present; my church’s accounting advisors advised them they needed to present depreciation.  It makes the budget look peculiarly bad, because people expect the expenses of the church to actually involve spending money on things. It took more time to explain what was going on with it than it took to explain everything else put together. — http://cbbrowne.com/info/sgml.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #173. "Although it would provide amusement, I  will not  confess  to  the hero’s  rival  that I  was  the one  who committed the heinous act for which he blames the hero." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/

Having been the treasurer of  a 500 member (800 attendance) church for a number of years and developed custom software for a number of charitable (not-for- profit organizations), I have seen many methodologies being employed. If you want to operate on a true cash basis, then long-term assets become a cash expenditure in the period that they were paid for. For example: Establish a Disbursement Section for "Capital Expenditures" with accounts for "Automotive Equipment", "Building", etc. Then, when you purchase a Van for $30,000 you debit Automotive Equipment and credit Bank (your Budget will have provided for this purchase and your members will understand what happened. Similarly with the "Building" account; however, here you probably deal with annual mortgage payments (principal plus interest). Assuming that your first payment is the down payment, you debit Building and credit Bank with the payment amount. Then, when you make your mortgage payments you debit Building for the principal portion, debit Interest for the interest portion and credit Bank for the payment amount. You can still maintain a Balance Sheet that shows the true Assets by making the appropriate entries to the applicable Asset, Liability and Equity accounts, including Depreciation to reflect the net book value of the Assets. You can have the best of both worlds. In addition, don’t think accounting, think information management. A proper system should track all data on the members and adherents, and as their giving is recorded for tax receipt purposes, the system should generate the appplicable entries to accounting (receipts and cash/bank). And since you have member data for "accounting purposes" you might as well expand it into a human/spiritual resource and individual ministry system. On the expenditure side, a good "ministry system" tracks and records expenditures by specific ministries. Some ministries may even have receipts associated with them e.g. summer camps where a fee may be charged. In other words, good church accounting provides for simplicity without neglecting accountability. Members of most congregation want their leadership to practice good stewardship, just as the leadership preaches to the congregation when it come to giving and how we handle our money. For further information, you are welcome to call me at 403-252-3282 Wolfgang

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Heather and Reggie, It looks like those in the know are suggesting two pieces of software for your needs.  The first is the membership program and the second is the accounting.  I don’t know what a membership program might include, but it is probably beyond the capacity of an accounting program. The only accounting program mentioned so far has been QuickBooks.  It you are considering that, may I offer an alternative.  My company will provide a fully functional, complete accounting program to your church for $25.  Unlike QuickBooks, you do not need to pay $169 each year to keep the payroll functional.  Our tax tables are user definable.  The software comes with a complete set of multimedia training right on the CD.  You may install training on your hard drive if you wish.  One of the training sessions is an introductory course in accounting, covering the processes and terminology of accounting. We are just completing the "beta testing" period of the next update now.  It will have a complete contact manager built into it also.  If you are interested in checking out the software, call Mike Schmidt toll free at (800) 365-6790 and ask for the Small Business Advantage version of A-Systems Visual Bookkeeper. By the way, A-Systems has been providing accounting software since 1978.  We are not new to the accounting or programming world. Our very mature, stable software is quick to learn and easy to run, specifically designed for small businesses.  We have a church in Oklahoma that uses our software.  They originally purchased the version with job costing to assist them in a building project they had.  Since then, they have relied on the accounting side for their other needs.  If you decide to use the Small Business Advantage, I will arrange for you to receive the next update when it is released, at no charge.  This $25 price is the price is our OEM price, the price we charge our resellers or associations, but you can have it by asking. Thanks, Arnold S. Grundvig, Jr. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Do you have any experience with these church management programs?  Are they worth their salt?  If so, do you have one you prefer or advice on which to avoid?? Heather Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.accounting I’m the CFO of a church with a building, debt, and a handful of employees.  We don’t have anything in our Accounts Payable.  We’re careful to record expenses in the month occured.  I issue cash basis financials to our elders each month to avoid confusion. The emphasis is comparing income to expense and to our budget.  At year end I take depreciation, accrue any outstanding bills, and true up payroll tax withholding. Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Ken Russell | | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | — | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | taxman at negia.net | | — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. A cash basis financial statement can’t report depreciation?  How very interesting.

Depreciation _isn’t_ a cash outlay. Furthermore, the things that get spent to ‘overcome’ depreciation are twofold:  1.  Ongoing maintenance, involving spending cash;  2.  Renovations, again involving spending cash. You might then save up some budgeted amounts into a "fund" towards use for renovations. The big thing is that depreciation causes great confusion to people that don’t understand accounting… — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html Know how to blow any problem up into insolubility.  Know how to use the phrase "The new ~A system" to insult its argument, e.g., "I guess this destructuring LET thing is fixed in the new Lisp system", or better yet, PROLOG. — from the Symbolics Guidelines for Sending Mail

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financials and a program called "Membership Plus" (http://www.memplushome.com/v8/index.cfm) for our membership database & contribution records. This is working very well for us. Currently we have an active membership of around 250, actually on the rolls about 400.  Some of your accounting questions may also involve knowing a little more about your church. For instance, I am Methodist and our "assets" (buildings, vans, etc.) do not appear on our local church financials. Even though the local congregation pays for them and has some control over them, they are actually "owned" by our conference. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have any experience with these church management programs?  Are they worth their salt?  If so, do you have one you prefer or advice on which to avoid?? Heather Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.accounting I’m the CFO of a church with a building, debt, and a handful of employees.  We don’t have anything in our Accounts Payable.  We’re careful to record expenses in the month occured.  I issue cash basis financials to our elders each month to avoid confusion. The emphasis is comparing income to expense and to our budget.  At year end I take depreciation, accrue any outstanding bills, and true up payroll tax withholding. Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Ken Russell | | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | — | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | taxman at negia.net | | — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

N Owen To reply, please change "ONE" to numeral

Response:

Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church.

Building depreciation is a particularly odd-ball "expense" to present; my church’s accounting advisors advised them they needed to present depreciation.  It makes the budget look peculiarly bad, because people expect the expenses of the church to actually involve spending money on things. It took more time to explain what was going on with it than it took to explain everything else put together. — http://cbbrowne.com/info/sgml.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #173. "Although it would provide amusement, I  will not  confess  to  the hero’s  rival  that I  was  the one  who committed the heinous act for which he blames the hero." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/

Response:

Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. A cash basis financial statement can’t report depreciation?  How very interesting.

Depreciation is an accrual concept.

Response:

We have no debt so I don’t have to deal with that, but I don’t think they do anything with depreciation.  We have a van and, of course, the church, and the parsonage.  What do I need to do in regards to depreciation??  The building was built in, I think, the 50s or 60s.  I’m not sure about when the van was purchased or the parsonage. Heather – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.accounting I’m the CFO of a church with a building, debt, and a handful of employees.  We don’t have anything in our Accounts Payable.  We’re careful to record expenses in the month occured.  I issue cash basis financials to our elders each month to avoid confusion. The emphasis is comparing income to expense and to our budget.  At year end I take depreciation, accrue any outstanding bills, and true up payroll tax withholding. Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Ken Russell | | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | — | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | taxman at negia.net | | — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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As far as reports the membership sees, I only do a monthly budget report. For my own records, etc.  I do a monthly balance sheet and a net worth sheet.   Heather – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.accounting Most Church’s have no need for GAAP financials. Most members of the congregation would find them unintelligible.

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Do you have any experience with these church management programs?  Are they worth their salt?  If so, do you have one you prefer or advice on which to avoid?? Heather – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.accounting I’m the CFO of a church with a building, debt, and a handful of employees.  We don’t have anything in our Accounts Payable.  We’re careful to record expenses in the month occured.  I issue cash basis financials to our elders each month to avoid confusion. The emphasis is comparing income to expense and to our budget.  At year end I take depreciation, accrue any outstanding bills, and true up payroll tax withholding. Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Ken Russell | | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | — | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | taxman at negia.net | | — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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In my experience as a Church Treasurer and as a member of Finance Committees at several churches, most Church’s are on the cash basis of accounting. I have found that a booklet "The Church Guide to Financial Reporting" is helpful. http://cmr.gospelcom.net/cgi-cmr/webstore/web_store.cgi?  Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service I would stay on the cash basis. W. W. MacDonald

Response:

Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church.

A cash basis financial statement can’t report depreciation?  How very interesting. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

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Most Church’s have no need for GAAP financials. Most members of the congregation would find them unintelligible.

Response:

I’m the CFO of a church with a building, debt, and a handful of employees.  We don’t have anything in our Accounts Payable.  We’re careful to record expenses in the month occured.  I issue cash basis financials to our elders each month to avoid confusion. The emphasis is comparing income to expense and to our budget.  At year end I take depreciation, accrue any outstanding bills, and true up payroll tax withholding. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Ken Russell | | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit  orgs | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | — | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | taxman at negia.net | | — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis.  Can you point in the direction of regulations and procedures for accounting in a non-profit organization?  i.e. books, websites, etc. TIA Heather —

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Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis.

I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA taxman at negia.net

Response:

Churches have non cash expenses such as Depreciation, Long Service Leave, in some cases even Debtors, etc etc…. Where these items are significant, accrual based accounting more accurately reflects the financial state of the church. Ken Russell

| | Hello.  I am a new church secretary and am now responsible for all | accounting/bookkeeping procedures.  I understand that most non-profit orgs | use accrual basis accounting, but this church uses cash basis. | | I can’t imagine why a church would use accrual accounting. | | All of the not-for-profits I work with are case basis. | | | | — | Paul A. Thomas, CPA | taxman at negia.net | | — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Question:

Thanks, Mike I will be sure to check it out. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Mike- Paul A. Thomas referred me to you. I just had a simple question about QuickBooks, Is it compatible with any time card systems? Sarah S. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Mike- Paul A. Thomas referred me to you. I just had a simple question about QuickBooks, Is it compatible with any time card systems? Sarah S.

Hi Sarah: Among the many QuickBooks Add-ons on my http://www.blocktax.com/ web site are several time keeping programs. As far as I know neither QB nor any of these use time clocks (I presume that is what you mean by tune card). A program not on my site, which integrates with QB, is industry leader http://timeslips.com/ If you look through their add-ons, and go through the sites of the other time programs on my site, you should find something. Please let us know.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester   FREE 462p QB book/error codes/ 80 QB add-ons http://blocktax.com/ Spam bait (credit E. Needham):

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Question:

Lets say you list an item for 99 cents, and it sells for 9.00, with postage another 1.25.   You saved 25 cents on the listing, but you might have to pay 79 cents in BillPoint fees. If my math is wrong I’d like to have someone point it out.

 Try this math… Billpoint is very rarely used and even if it is used 85 % of all credit card purchases are made by Visa cards which have their fees waived by Billpoint for  these free listing auctions. I admit,if you have a high value item you may want to skip the freebie but for items under $20 it is well worth the very slight chance that some buyer will use MasterCard or Discovery on a Billpoint purchase….

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Lets say you list an item for 99 cents, and it sells for 9.00, with postage another 1.25.   You saved 25 cents on the listing, but you might have to pay 79 cents in BillPoint fees. If my math is wrong I’d like to have someone point it out. Try this math… Billpoint is very rarely used and even if it is used 85 % of all credit card purchases are made by Visa cards which have their fees waived by Billpoint for  these free listing auctions. I admit,if you have a high value item you may want to skip the freebie but for items under $20 it is well worth the very slight chance that some buyer will use MasterCard or Discovery on a Billpoint purchase….

Is it worth the 25 cents for me to be pushing a service that will come back to bite me in the ass later on?  Later on when the math will be a 9.00 dollar item with 1.25 postage costing me 25 cents to list, plus 79 cents in BillPoint fees plus 45 cents final value fee. Why would I want to try and get a system going where eBay takes $1.49 out of a lousy $9.00 sale!

Response:

Is it worth the 25 cents for me to be pushing a service that will come back to bite me in the ass later on?  Later on when the math will be a 9.00 dollar item with 1.25 postage costing me 25 cents to list, plus 79 cents in BillPoint fees plus 45 cents final value fee. Why would I want to try and get a system going where eBay takes $1.49 out of a lousy $9.00 sale!

 Billpoint is doomed to fail,it is floundering in the water trying to stay afloat. Why not take advantage of it’s attempts to buy sellers. Nobody is agreeing to use Billpoint on any auction other than these freebies. You can actually hurt Billpoint by using it on the freebie auctions and not on the regular paying auctions. Those statistics must drive eBay’s accountants nuts…    In the early 1970’s I worked for a little sweatshop sheet metal company. The workers got together and got a union organizer to get a ‘union vote’ to make the shop a union shop. The owner had 2 weeks to try to convince the workers he was really a nice guy and not a tyrant. We had no intention of ever not voting for the unionization of the shop but we gladly accepted his "goodwill gestures" of new lockers,water fountains,etc.,etc.

Response:

This kind of free day is highly discriminatory against those who are in "furrin" countries (not to mention those who don’t want to use Ebay’s CC service)! The last free day was in late December last year (for us "regular folks"). Personally, I think the only reason they’re doing this latest one is to hype up business around the Memorial Day weekend.

Response:

"Include Billpoint as a payment method when you list your item on Thursday, May 18th, and Billpoint will pay your eBay insertion fee! You must register with Billpoint and include this payment method to receive your free listings."  So you guys don’t think it worth be worth my while to take advantage of this just for the free listings?  I have some new stuff to put on, but if I’m going to get less for it, it wouldn’t be worth the free listings.  I value your opinions in here.

A big problem for me is the timing – a seven day auction starting today would end the Thursday before Memorial Day weekend – and since a lot of people make it a four-day weekend, I’m betting the amount of bidders will be down that evening, getting ready for their cookout, trip to the beach, visiting relatives, etc. The 10-day auctions would be even worse, ending on the Sunday before Memorial Day. If you like doing three and five day auctions, I suppose it might be ok for you. Before you buy.

Response:

I think I will take everyone’s advice and wait.  Like somebody said (sorry, forgot who), if the buyer did use Billpoint, it would cost me more than a listing fee, and besides that, it seems to me like auctions are slow now anyway, even without the upcoming holiday to slow them down even more.  Oh well, I have quite a few on now, just hope the bidding picks up before they close! Thanks, everybody, for your advice! Rhonda

Response:

on how I can spend more money in fees if I take billpoint. Mark my words, paypal will not remain on ebay as a free service. ebay has too much to lose with a "free" service doing the job of a "paid" service like billpoint. Who in theor right mind will use billpoint when paypal is free. Won’t last long I guarantee it.

Dumb comment, there’s nothing e-bay can do about it.  By what magical means do you think e-bay can keep anyone from accepting or making a PayPal payment? — —T Lin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No you aren’t getting it, it is not free untill you close with the sale and your buyer uses billpoint. I just got the powersellers mail out with all the neat info Dennis worse yet is the item has to close and the payment must be made through billpoint for the listing to be free. Whipee!!!! Dennis  Payment options must include Billpoint for the listing to be free. Nobody would use the free listings with the strict rules you indicated. Why not take advantage of the free day? Nobody uses Billpoint anyway and after the free listing day ignore the Billpoint payment option…

Response:

"Include Billpoint as a payment method when you list your item on Thursday, May 18th, and Billpoint will pay your eBay insertion fee! You must register with Billpoint and include this payment method to receive your free listings."  So you guys don’t think it worth be worth my while to take advantage of this just for the free listings?  I have some new stuff to put on, but if I’m going to get less for it, it wouldn’t be worth the free listings.  I value your opinions in here. Rhonda

Lets say you list an item for 99 cents, and it sells for 9.00, with postage another 1.25.   You saved 25 cents on the listing, but you might have to pay 79 cents in BillPoint fees. If my math is wrong I’d like to have someone point it out.

Response:

Every time they have a free listing day, my prices drop, and my percentage of completed auctions drop.  It probably depends on what your selling. Richard Ward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Include Billpoint as a payment method when you list your item on Thursday, May 18th, and Billpoint will pay your eBay insertion fee! You must register with Billpoint and include this payment method to receive your free listings."  So you guys don’t think it worth be worth my while to take advantage of this just for the free listings?  I have some new stuff to put on, but if I’m going to get less for it, it wouldn’t be worth the free listings.  I value your opinions in here. Rhonda

Response:

2-4-6-8, JNouri is spiffy, JNouri is great!: another free listing day may 18th as long as you choose  billpoint asa  payment method.

Two words: Fuck Sh^H^HBillPoint  Alright! I *AM* the Messiah! — He *IS* the Messiah! — Now… Fuck Off!

Response:

"Include Billpoint as a payment method when you list your item on Thursday, May 18th, and Billpoint will pay your eBay insertion fee! You must register with Billpoint and include this payment method to receive your free listings."  So you guys don’t think it worth be worth my while to take advantage of this just for the free listings?  I have some new stuff to put on, but if I’m going to get less for it, it wouldn’t be worth the free listings.  I value your opinions in here. Rhonda

Response:

you aren’t getting it. the anouncement about the free listing day (5-18-00) at http://pages.ebay.com/help/sellerguide/bp-fld.html says you must accept billpoint for the free listing, but it does not say- the auction end must be paid via billpoint, just that it must be an option to they buyer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No you aren’t getting it, it is not free untill you close with the sale and your buyer uses billpoint. I just got the powersellers mail out with all the neat info on how I can spend more money in fees if I take billpoint. Mark my words, paypal will not remain on ebay as a free service. ebay has too much to lose with a "free" service doing the job of a "paid" service like billpoint. Who in theor right mind will use billpoint when paypal is free. Won’t last long I guarantee it. Dennis worse yet is the item has to close and the payment must be made through billpoint for the listing to be free. Whipee!!!! Dennis  Payment options must include Billpoint for the listing to be free. Nobody would use the free listings with the strict rules you indicated. Why not take advantage of the free day? Nobody uses Billpoint anyway and after the free listing day ignore the Billpoint payment option…

Response:

I can think of one good reason, every time they have a free day it increases the number of listings, drops the sales prices to sellers due to the increased competition for bidders, and decreases the percentage of auctions actually completed.  Why would I want to save the $0.25 or $0.50 per item, and risk having each item close $2.00 or $3.00 lower, if at all? I wish eBay would just drop these free listing days entirely.  From the sellers standpoint they are terrible for business.  What they need is something to encourage more bidders to come on board.  If they can keep the supply of bidders high, the sellers will come AND pay for the privelege willingly. Just an opinion. Richard Ward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  Payment options must include Billpoint for the listing to be free. Nobody would use the free listings with the strict rules you indicated. Why not take advantage of the free day? Nobody uses Billpoint anyway and after the free listing day ignore the Billpoint payment option…

Response:

another free listing day may 18th as long as you choose  billpoint asa  payment method. Obviously Ebay is trying to capitalize on the recent problems at PayPal, no doubt hoping to convert some disgruntled sellers.

  I think the recent problems at PayPal are just coincidental to this free listing day. The opposite is probably more true… the incredible success of PayPal with the online auction scene ( 25 % of all eBay auctions for instance ) has made it an out and out necessity for eBay to try to promote it’s BillPoint at all costs before it’s beyond help. I can envision a scenario where eBay has free listing for a week or even longer for sellers willing to use BillPoint as a payment option. These single listing days don’t really help BillPoint’s cause enough to be effective and a longer free listing period may be what is     Just an opinion mind you

Response:

another free listing day may 18th as long as you choose  billpoint asa  payment method.

Obviously Ebay is trying to capitalize on the recent problems at PayPal, no doubt hoping to convert some disgruntled sellers.

Response:

worse yet is the item has to close and the payment must be made through billpoint for the listing to be free. Whipee!!!! Dennis

 Payment options must include Billpoint for the listing to be free. Nobody would use the free listings with the strict rules you indicated. Why not take advantage of the free day? Nobody uses Billpoint anyway and after the free listing day ignore the Billpoint payment option…

Response:

another free listing day may 18th as long as you choose  billpoint asa  payment method.

Response:

Thanks for telling us agent 007.  (sooo sneaky!) I hope eBay is paying you well. Dexter

Response:

I’m getting pretty tired of these stupid free listing days.  Sales have been bad enough recently without making things worse. Richard Ward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for telling us agent 007.  (sooo sneaky!) I hope eBay is paying you well. Dexter

Response:

another free listing day may 18th as long as you choose  billpoint asa  payment method.

hehe… well I don’t think I’ll list tomorrow. #1    I’m not paying the BillPoint fees #2    7 and 10 day auctions will hit a holiday #3    I’m not paying BillPoint fees

Response:

worse yet is the item has to close and the payment must be made through billpoint for the listing to be free. Whipee!!!! Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for telling us agent 007.  (sooo sneaky!) I hope eBay is paying you well. Dexter

Response:

No you aren’t getting it, it is not free untill you close with the sale and your buyer uses billpoint. I just got the powersellers mail out with all the neat info on how I can spend more money in fees if I take billpoint. Mark my words, paypal will not remain on ebay as a free service. ebay has too much to lose with a "free" service doing the job of a "paid" service like billpoint. Who in theor right mind will use billpoint when paypal is free. Won’t last long I guarantee it. Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – worse yet is the item has to close and the payment must be made through billpoint for the listing to be free. Whipee!!!! Dennis  Payment options must include Billpoint for the listing to be free. Nobody would use the free listings with the strict rules you indicated. Why not take advantage of the free day? Nobody uses Billpoint anyway and after the free listing day ignore the Billpoint payment option…

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know if it’s OK to take TWO of the main medications at one go? For instance, could one take both Risperdal AND Zyprexa? I would ask the mental health professionals, but having just got them off my back I don’t really want to contact them. Incidentally, they have approved me as being one hundred percent OK and fit to hand back to the doctor and no need of further help from them! HUH!  Shows how clever I am for sure! I convinced them that it was the rest of the world that was insane and not me and they believed me! Michelle

Response:

Hi I was prescribed two meds at once by my pdoc. I was on a low dose of haldol and seroquel at the same time.  I took the haldol during the day and the seroquel at night.   I liked that combo because I had energy during the day and slept well at night. I wouldn’t just take two different meds on my own though, you might end up with more side effects that way. penguin

Response:

I "ve been thinking. I need a roady/manager/agent/ to help me make money. I don’t drive. I play guitar. If I had somebody to help me get to gigs I could make some money. I’ve even come up with a few percentages  for how to cut the money up between us. Yeah so it seems I should put an add in the personals for help but all the personals are for hooking up with dates. Does anybody know of some service that help me find someone in the nearby area, Trenton and vicinity, who would want to go have some fun and share the excitement and make a little money Its possible that if I tin cupped it at Atlantic city I could make a couple hundred. If what I hear is true. They supposedly encourage street musicians there. I understand New York is a good place too.. But all the details I don’t know. I’d like the Roady/Manager/spiritual advisor/agent type person to stay by me. Look important. Snap a few pictures. Test the sound if I’m amplified, watch my gear while I run to the bathroom. etc. Where can I find such a person? So if anybody has any ideas for locating such a person online, lemme know. The thing is I have no idea what kind of money I can make but am told such tincup arrangements pay well. Any ideas? http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

I suppose that location means a lot. Like if I was in a touristy place and had a place to play I could probably make out real good. But even if so I’d need to have a residence, someplace to keep my equiptment safe. See I don’t have eighty zillion friends around here. Just a few. And everybody has their own lives to live. My one friend, volunteered to me the other day as we drove back from a little "escape" up river and walking around, she would take me to Atlantic City. This was after we had dropped in on a shop owner I know up in one of the "touristy places" along the Delaware. He explained that the town discourages music. Need all kinds of permits and stuff. Blocking up the sidewalk and all is a no-no. He then continued speaking of Atlantic City where "street musicians" are encouraged to play along the boardwalk. So……….she then pulled out a "someday" on me. "Someday. I told her that sounded very bad. Someyime after the first she said in response. The effect this leaves me with is that my self image is taking a beating. Seems to me, we should set plans. Instead I am left hanging. I don’t like this. I feel I’m being treated in a condescending manner. This one friend , another one,  who had been going along with the program and seemingly enjoying the attention and the fanfare that goes along with it. It was working rather well. But then she "figured out my problems" and knew just how I should change, take meds, stop drinking, don’t play bars, Then she even went into how I am a burden on my friends, and turned aginst me concerning my discussions with Social Security. So………I don’t want someone around me who undermines me like that. For a special event or gig I might ask her for a ride. But oh no, when someone turns on me like that I have never seen them change back. Never in all my days. To me, being a guitar player is a way of life, a lifestyle and, to me, I see it as a place where I don’t have to compromise a twit. I know this sounds self defeating but I won’t hand over "the good" of being independent and autonomous  for a compromised social situation where I am "the child" and my helper the "the adult". Whats agrevating is my current feelings towards my friend who recently volunteered to do Atlantic City with me. We were talking a very big percentage incidently. Do I want to incorporate with someone who be serious in her dealings? Who leaves me hanging? Who isn’t enthused about it? She would go lay on the beach with some as yet unnamed person while I play. Other people I know are simply involved in their own lives. So my not compromising the sincereity of my feelings and preserving this "guitar player path" , I am winding up with being a guitar player who rarely performs. I’m not a guitar player unless I play guitar for people. So for now, I sit here and pinch pennies, and stay alone, and make no money. I stopped playing the old mill because of the stresses it was placing on pour relationship. I needed a ride. And she started whining and moaning about it. So I let it go. I felt it was poisoning the good I see as a guitar player. I intend to preserve my autonomy concerning my music. I don’t have to let in the exact feelings and attitudes that I see Guitar enables me to transcend. I don’t have to let in any "headshit". Its the one place where I can preserve my autonomy and not become involved in emotional compromises and sell outs. I go out, I play, I have good times and fun. Thats it. I share my music joyfully and upbeat, happy. Thats my plan. There’s a gloom over the Atlantic City thing now. She said, "You’re just like a little boy now this is all that you’re going to talk about until we go" This was in response to my saying, "We’ll discus this on Sunday or monday, dates, and times and percentage cuts." See that air she blew on me? I don’t want that on my music. http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

damod…@webtv.net wrote:  meaningfull things

Hi Damo. You play very well guitar. People in America have a liberal way of life.  The only meaning they find to life is to make money, for them, their wife, their kids… You think you want to make money, but actually you want to jump on board  of that huge ship where they feast.  I mean, i think you want to play guitar and only play guitar. They don’t see it that way however.  It’s not possible to play on the guitar for a living. I think you get the point. You’re a good guitar-player, Mr Damo. They are poor dreamers.  That’s all. M is the name of a male artist in France who sings with a high octave voice. He is allways talking about the schizophrenia in art.  I’m not setting this up. He’s being quite a succes by now. Nevertheless don’t let them get you down on that stuff. Nicely. DrenKa.

Response:

In LA, you need an artists’ permit to set up shop on the sidewalk. The wait list for a permit runs into the multiples of years, just like HUD housing Voucher waiting lists. But it never (hardly ever) rains in So Cal between April and October, and you’ll be choking on dust and smog. They (the TV/radio) tell people to stay indoors when the air is bad. If you smoke or have lots of pets in your apartment, the air could be MUCH worse indoors than outside though. If you had a real band out there, and you wanted to play in a club that is packed every night; well the club is packed every night because every band breaks the "No Flyers" Law and leaves thousands of flyers for their upcoming gig around the ground by passing them out to strangers (who immediately dump the flyers within a block or two) within the week or two before the gig. How did they get the club space you ask? They have a thing called "Pay To Play", where the band pays $500 to $1000 (or more) to the club owner as a booking deposit; and the band wins it back at the door (a percentage of the entry fee) on gig night. So, entry might be $5 to $15 per person, and the band might get a third to half of that. The club has a limit to the number of persons allowed into the club per order of the Fire Marshall, and that doesn’t include strange clothing! It’s a total freak show when the customers arrive, if they care to arrive. I was too broke to take a night out like that, but I did pass by the lines of people waiting to go into the club…and I was terrified about not fitting in, why bother anyway?

Response:

The band doesn’t actually get their $500 to $1000 (or more) booking deposit back; the club owner keeps it.

Response:

Hi Cymbalman There is a local hot spot that does something similar to what you describe happens in L.A. . Its a big place. They took over one of the pld redbrick steel factories on the rivers edge here in Trenton, they have patio space and outdoor areas corralled in by factory walls they left standing. No roof though. It directly over looks the river. Beautiful. Of course you don’t want to sit out on the patio during low tide because the exposed river mud has an odor that makes people want to move inland as fast as possible. Quickly as possible too. I don’t know the details but its something like, the band rents one of the showcase rooms on an off night and there is a door fee. If the band draws then they make money. If they don’t draw, then they lose money. The club has to hire help to man the bars and hire bouncers and hire waitreeses. So they will go along with the band if the band can assure them they won’t lose money on it. Yes I believe the band has to give upfront money. Its on an "off night". Wednesday night or tuesday night. On their big nights of course they want no competition to the bands they pay to come in. Usually the patio area is where they put the big names.. With the low tide river stench wafting over the enthused college kids. Big river. To me, it dominates the whole area. Its quite significant, the Delaware. Of course I suspect most folks hardly notice it. The river does it right back. The river hardly notices the people. L.A. is too far to go, thanks for idea however. Damo http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

Is there no way you can buy a car for yourself?  I once sold a car that still ran good for only $500.  That car would go anywhere but I didn’t like the stick shift and there was no A/C. <damod…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:24418-4108F49B-229@storefull-3236.bay.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I "ve been thinking. > I need a roady/manager/agent/ to help me make money. > I don’t drive. I play guitar. If I had somebody to help me get to gigs I > could make some money. > I’ve even come up with a few percentages  for how to cut the money up > between us. > Yeah so it seems I should put an add in the personals for help but all > the personals are for hooking up with dates. > Does anybody know of some service that help me find someone in the > nearby area, Trenton and vicinity, who would want to go have some fun > and share the excitement and make a little money > Its possible that if I tin cupped it at Atlantic city I could make a > couple hundred. If what I hear is true. They supposedly encourage street > musicians there. > I understand New York is a good place too.. But all the details I don’t > know. > I’d like the Roady/Manager/spiritual advisor/agent type person to stay > by me. > Look important. Snap a few pictures. > Test the sound if I’m amplified, watch my gear while I run to the > bathroom. etc. > Where can I find such a person? > So if anybody has any ideas for locating such a person online, lemme > know. > The thing is I have no idea what kind of money I can make but am told > such tincup arrangements pay well. > Any ideas? > http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

"Just Me" <thecli…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:BlgOc.2438$cK.2130@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… | Is there no way you can buy a car for yourself?  I once sold a car that still ran good for only $500.  That car would go anywhere but I didn’t like the stick shift and there was no A/C. You can’t buy a car if you can’t buy your meat How can you buy your meat if you can’t buy a car? PS: milk spoils in 10 minutes at 90 degrees.

Response:

My budget after rent, phone, ISP and laundry quarters is about 250 a month. I haven’t had milk for weeks, I am out of bread for about two weeks, I am trying to make the toilet paper last until tuesday. Today I ran out of coffee. I am using drips of dish detergent to wash dishes as that is down to last drips. I am out of mouth wash. The good news is I’ll be getting foodstamps, so they say, thats they said on July three but they have been mute. I’m getting county to pick up medicare payments that means another 66 a month. And I believe they said I qualified for about 50 bucks of SSI a month. So…….in September or October I’ll get arrearage checks for the money still being taken for medicare and arrearage checks for SSI.  I can’t wait. Its hard being hungry. I go to a food pantriry. I AIN’T working, I’m going to put my self or others through that anymore. See I was making a dollar now and then with my guitar but…….. There was an issue so I stopped. I won’t go into right here. Buy a cheap car? Yeah sure. I can’t even buy pants currently. This check buys a pair of dungarees. I’ve got stuff I should sell. I have a muzzel loader shotgun up in the attic. Newspapers from the 1700s wiren in funny fonts, stuff like that. Antique cathederal radio up there. Everyone is dead so there’s no reason to hoard it any longer. I could play, maybe, if I tried to sell myself to few places. I only need about twenty extra a week and I’d be able to catch buses and perform. See but its hot. I’d sweat too much. I only play day gigs as a single performer. And if I spend the money for the bus I will get into trouble financially. So….I don’t choose to risk it. I’ll wait for October. That’ll mean foodstamps and I think an extra hundred a month. Add to that the arearage monies and I’ll be back in business., able to ride on buses and afford to have clean clothes. I’ll call the election and campaign headquarters for the democrats soon. And there is a chance for a tin cup gig down town next friday. On "payday", thats tuesday, I could grab a bus and my guitar and get an okay from someone for Friday. I was going out with a friend and we would always stop for a bite. I felt it was important to ensure my social security so I allowed the expense. But her attitude has gone too far. No more rides in the car and stop for restaurant food. That will mean a lot. I know far better days are coming as I have never been better on the instrument. I played several hours yesterday for example. I will update "Disinherited" and sell it for johnnie cheapo prrices to those who had bought the original. And I need a new one, mid priced range . I’m thinking of making it of my "favorites". I put a lot of time in at the old mill and I have matured significantly with the songs and the instrument. And I’ll be playing for the Democrats. Hopefully. I’ll be fine. If I didn’t catch a bad case of zombies I would have been able to much better turning a some money tricks with my guitar. http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

Hi Again, (Just

Question:

LOL….I must be an artist at heart.  The first thing I noticed about my lap photos is that everything seemed to be color coded!!!! sabby

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Five surgeons are discussing who makes the best patients to operate on. The first surgeon says, "I like to see accountants on my operating table,because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered." The second responds, "Yeah, but you should try electricians! Everything inside them is color coded." The third surgeon says, "No, I really think librarians are the best; everything inside them is in alphabetical order." The fourth surgeon chimes in: "You know, I like construction workers…those guys always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end and when the job takes longer than you said it would." But the fifth surgeon shut them all up when he observed: "You’re all wrong. Politicians are the easiest to operate on. There’s no guts, no heart, no spine and their head and butt are interchangeable."

Response:

Question:

Have your kings, that’s your business; just don’t try to make them _everyone’s_ kings. I will announce Him as everyone’s King whether they want to accept that or not (for the time being). Some day they — and you — will. Alternatively you will realise (or rather you won’t because you will have no awareness) someday that it was all a big con! ) And if that were the case, then you won’t even be aware enough to gloat.

Why would I want to gloat? I’m just sad to see people waste the only life they have chasing an impossible dream… immortality. But if I’m right . . . Have you ordered your harp yet? All I’ve got is the pass key. The harp or anything else will be up to Him.

So you aren’t "saved"? — Pat Winstanley

Response:

Have your kings, that’s your business; just don’t try to make them _everyone’s_ kings.

Or, have it your way at Burger King! Why would I want to gloat? I’m just sad to see people waste the only life they have chasing an impossible dream… immortality.

You mean like in Highlander, where you get to chop off people’s heads? All I’ve got is the pass key. The harp or anything else will be up to Him. So you aren’t "saved"?

Not only that, he is pretending to know the mind of God . .. to say he has the "passkey" is nonsense. As Jesus said, it is up to God to tell the wheat from the weeds. Such arraogance is kinda against what Jesus actually said …but many xians are wonderful at rewrting the bible. They seem to think God couldn’t say things straight out. so when the bible doesn’t agree with them they just say, what God REALLY meant was . ….

Response:

  I’ll accept ANYONE as god who can pull a winning season out of the 49er’s troubled bag….

Ha. but any god that could give the RAIDERS a winning season .. . now THAT would be something! Besides, I’m already sacrificing to Odin and Thor so that the Vikings will win this year.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reference is not that Jesus Christ( the anointed one ) is still burning in the Lake of Fire.  Jesus died for our sins, went to hell to pay for our sins, was resurrected ( came back in the flesh ) and now sits at the right hand of God the father acting as the advocate for those who believe in Him against the cries of the accuser. I don’t see how that’s supposed to clear anything up, as Paul (sabutigo) referred to "substitutionary sacrifice," and it was his words I questioned. One and a half days "payment," followed by elevation to such a lofty position, to substitute for eternity? Even purgatory, as suggested by the RCC, is far worse than that. …. Jim, considering that Jesus was DESERVING of the exalted position BEFORE he suffered death for us, on and a half days is plenty. Jeus was GOD and completely sinless. In fact, knowing that, one nanosecond would have been plenty if it could have been proved that He was actually dead that long. Sure, whatever. You will probably never realize how ridiculous that sounds, Yes, I understand. I was there once. 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (KJV)

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed,   whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and   shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him,   whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and   signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of   unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not   the love of the truth, that they might be saved.   And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that   they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who   believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." We already know your "loving God" sends everyone who sins to hell for sinning. God pardons no one, only sends them a delusion that they believe in the truth so that they can go straight to hell. Paul really screwed up the message Jesus is purported to have said in the Gospels. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but at least you seem able to recognize that Jesus’ "sacrifice" amounted to hardly any sacrifice at all, for a being such as he was supposed to be. Have your kings, that’s your business; just don’t try to make them _everyone’s_ kings. I will announce Him as everyone’s King whether they want to accept that or not (for the time being). Some day they — and you — will. Philipians 2:9-11 "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (KJV)

Matthew 23:11-12 "But he that is greatest among you shall be your   servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and   he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:11 "For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he   that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Jesus said, "Follow my example." Paul said, "Jesus is quite through with all this servant stuff, now he gets to RULE!" Paul REALLY screwed up the message of the carpenter’s son! Now people, if they want to follow Jesus "example", as presented to us by Paul, have to try to exalt themselves above others using the smokescreen that by being above everyone else, one can help more people. Methinks a Christianity without Paul would have resulted in missionaries "shaking the dust from their feet" instead of brutally murdering people because they "believed the lie that God had sent them". I’ve always found it ironic that a religion started on the basis that rules were made to be broken in order to do good, resulted in the most authoritarian religion on the planet.

Response:

Have your kings, that’s your business; just don’t try to make them _everyone’s_ kings. I will announce Him as everyone’s King whether they want to accept that or not (for the time being). Some day they — and you — will.

Alternatively you will realise (or rather you won’t because you will have no awareness) someday that it was all a big con! ) Have you ordered your harp yet? — Pat Winstanley

Response:

<snipp :     Dear Heavenly Father. I thank you for sending Jesus to the cross, and : shedding his blood to forgive my sins so that I may live and have life eternal. : Father, I ask you to come into my heart, forgive me of my sins, for I am a : sinner. Give me the strength to do your will through Christ Jesus. Thank you : Father, for saving me, In Jesus name I ask. Amen. : For those who have prayed this prayer, I urge you to get committed. For we are BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Think globally, act locally.      Susan —  "Gadfly is what they call you when you are no longer  |  Seditious libel  dangerous.  I much prefer troublemaker, malcontent,   |   for fun and  desperado."  – Harlan Ellison                        |     profit

Response:

I will announce Him as everyone’s King whether they want to accept that or not (for the time being). Some day they — and you — will.

  I’ll accept ANYONE as god who can pull a winning season out of the 49er’s troubled bag…. — "This is not a man who is leaving with his head between his legs." -Dan Quayle on Sununu’s ouster

Response:

Have your kings, that’s your business; just don’t try to make them _everyone’s_ kings. I will announce Him as everyone’s King whether they want to accept that or not (for the time being). Some day they — and you — will. Alternatively you will realise (or rather you won’t because you will have no awareness) someday that it was all a big con! )

And if that were the case, then you won’t even be aware enough to gloat. But if I’m right . . . Have you ordered your harp yet?

All I’ve got is the pass key. The harp or anything else will be up to Him.

Response:

… I will announce Him as everyone’s King whether they want to accept that or not (for the time being). Some day they — and you — will. Alternatively you will realise (or rather you won’t because you will have no awareness) someday that it was all a big con! ) And if that were the case, then you won’t even be aware enough to gloat. But if I’m right . . .

Pascal’s Wager warmed over yet again. If the intensity of the hell vs. the glory of the Heaven is what you’re gambling on, why aren’t you a Muslim? You really ought to look into their afterlife risk:reward package, it has yours beat hands-down. So if you’re wrong and _they_ are right, what then? Have you ordered your harp yet? All I’ve got is the pass key. The harp or anything else will be up to Him.

Ah yes, your first-class reserved ticket has been punched, so now you can advocate bloody terrorism with impunity. All you need do is swear fealty to your "substitutionary sacrificial lamb" and who cares what mayhem you wreak on earth? Jim

Response:

The reference is not that Jesus Christ( the anointed one ) is still burning in the Lake of Fire.  Jesus died for our sins, went to hell to pay for our sins, was resurrected ( came back in the flesh ) and now sits at the right hand of God the father acting as the advocate for those who believe in Him against the cries of the accuser. I don’t see how that’s supposed to clear anything up, as Paul (sabutigo) referred to "substitutionary sacrifice," and it was his words I questioned. One and a half days "payment," followed by elevation to such a lofty position, to substitute for eternity? Even purgatory, as suggested by the RCC, is far worse than that.

… Jim, considering that Jesus was DESERVING of the exalted position BEFORE he suffered death for us, on and a half days is plenty. Jeus was GOD and completely sinless. In fact, knowing that, one nanosecond would have been plenty if it could have been proved that He was actually dead that long.

Sure, whatever. You will probably never realize how ridiculous that sounds, but at least you seem able to recognize that Jesus’ "sacrifice" amounted to hardly any sacrifice at all, for a being such as he was supposed to be. Have your kings, that’s your business; just don’t try to make them _everyone’s_ kings. Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reference is not that Jesus Christ( the anointed one ) is still burning in the Lake of Fire.  Jesus died for our sins, went to hell to pay for our sins, was resurrected ( came back in the flesh ) and now sits at the right hand of God the father acting as the advocate for those who believe in Him against the cries of the accuser. I don’t see how that’s supposed to clear anything up, as Paul (sabutigo) referred to "substitutionary sacrifice," and it was his words I questioned. One and a half days "payment," followed by elevation to such a lofty position, to substitute for eternity? Even purgatory, as suggested by the RCC, is far worse than that. …. Jim, considering that Jesus was DESERVING of the exalted position BEFORE he suffered death for us, on and a half days is plenty. Jeus was GOD and completely sinless. In fact, knowing that, one nanosecond would have been plenty if it could have been proved that He was actually dead that long. Sure, whatever. You will probably never realize how ridiculous that sounds,

Yes, I understand. I was there once. 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (KJV) but at least you seem able to recognize that Jesus’ "sacrifice" amounted to hardly any sacrifice at all, for a being such as he was supposed to be. Have your kings, that’s your business; just don’t try to make them _everyone’s_ kings.

I will announce Him as everyone’s King whether they want to accept that or not (for the time being). Some day they — and you — will. Philipians 2:9-11 "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (KJV)

Response:

I’m sorry, but no one deserves to die and to burn forever in the fires of hell and the lake of fire.  Yes it is true that killing innocent babies is wrong, and should be stopped.  But we are to love our enemies and to pray for them (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:27).  Remember that God loves you, but He hates your sins just like every other christian does. Rev. Spitz is right though, if you do not confess your sins and accept Jesus as your Lord and personal savior, you will burn for eternity. Maybe those of you out there don’t know how, If you will follow me through this prayer:     Dear Heavenly Father. I thank you for sending Jesus to the cross, and shedding his blood to forgive my sins so that I may live and have life eternal. Father, I ask you to come into my heart, forgive me of my sins, for I am a sinner. Give me the strength to do your will through Christ Jesus. Thank you Father, for saving me, In Jesus name I ask. Amen. For those who have prayed this prayer, I urge you to get committed. For we are to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and to be like Him. I urge you to read the bible and to find a church family who can tell you more about Jesus and his will for you.  I pray that God will truly bless you. By His grace, Billy

Response:

Excuse me, the twisted pscho’s are those that murder innocent babies within the wombs and those that support those murders. That rent a cop abortion mill guard got what he deserved. Now he is in eternal hell-fire for helping murder innocent babies, exactly where you will be one day unless you repent and receive the Lord Jesus as your Saviour. —  http://www.christiangallery.com/prolifeva Eternal Life or Eternal Flames, the choice is yours. Turn from your wicked sins and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, otherwise you will  spend eternity  in eternal conscious torment in eternal hell-fire. This is where all Christ rejectors will spend eternity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well 200 trained and well fed FBIagents, helicopters, dogs, bounty hunters and the like are no match for the will of God.  Yes, that god is one swell character, ain’t he? Sending his goons to implode buildings and kill nurses and cops … then sending them to hide like little weenies in the hills. It boggles my mind that anybody would want to support this twisted psycho. Have people forgotten he set off a nail-ridden bomb in the middle of the Olympics? Over 100 people were injured. Has this been proven or is this pro-abortionist/liberal wishful thinking? Perhaps it is wishful thinking that a terrorist be held accountable for the death and destruction he has caused. This guy doesn’t have favor in any kind of gh0d’s eye. How do you know? Cuz there is no gh0d. Duh.

Response:

Excuse me, the twisted pscho’s are those that murder innocent babies within the wombs and those that support those murders. That rent a cop abortion mill guard got what he deserved. Now he is in eternal hell-fire for helping murder innocent babies, exactly where you will be one day unless you repent and receive the Lord Jesus as your Saviour.

        Or of course, Eric Rudolph was just eaten by a bear in the backwoods, and now lives on Heaven’s Poverty Row, where no woman is pathetic or desperate enough to make babies with him–if he hasn’t sold his ass to Jesus in exchange for a square meal. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -

Response:

I’m sorry, but no one deserves to die and to burn forever in the fires of hell and the lake of fire.  

Actually, EVERYONE deserves to die and burn in the Lake of Fire forever. Those who flee to the mercy of God forgiveness escape their just punishment because of the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Response:

I’m sorry, but no one deserves to die and to burn forever in the fires of hell and the lake of fire. Actually, EVERYONE deserves to die and burn in the Lake of Fire forever. Those who flee to the mercy of God forgiveness escape their just punishment because of the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

What are you suggesting, about this "sacrifice"? Are we to infer that Jesus Christ is burning in the Lake of Fire forever in our place? If not, ain’t much of a "substitution," is it? Jim

Response:

The reference is not that Jesus Christ( the anointed one ) is still burning in the Lake of Fire.  Jesus died for our sins, went to hell to pay for our sins, was resurrected ( came back in the flesh ) and now sits at the right hand of God the father acting as the advocate for those who believe in Him against the cries of the accuser. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry, but no one deserves to die and to burn forever in the fires of hell and the lake of fire. Actually, EVERYONE deserves to die and burn in the Lake of Fire forever. Those who flee to the mercy of God forgiveness escape their just punishment because of the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ. What are you suggesting, about this "sacrifice"? Are we to infer that Jesus Christ is burning in the Lake of Fire forever in our place? If not, ain’t much of a "substitution," is it? Jim

Response:

The reference is not that Jesus Christ( the anointed one ) is still burning in the Lake of Fire.  Jesus died for our sins, went to hell to pay for our sins, was resurrected ( came back in the flesh ) and now sits at the right hand of God the father acting as the advocate for those who believe in Him against the cries of the accuser.

I don’t see how that’s supposed to clear anything up, as Paul (sabutigo) referred to "substitutionary sacrifice," and it was his words I questioned. One and a half days "payment," followed by elevation to such a lofty position, to substitute for eternity? Even purgatory, as suggested by the RCC, is far worse than that. But if you guys want to mix it up over the minutiae of competing mythologies, don’t let me stand in your way (I’d advise you to search a few of his earlier posts, first). I don’t see why your version is supposed to be more believable than his, but there’s no accounting for religious tastes, really. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry, but no one deserves to die and to burn forever in the fires of hell and the lake of fire. Actually, EVERYONE deserves to die and burn in the Lake of Fire forever. Those who flee to the mercy of God forgiveness escape their just punishment because of the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ. What are you suggesting, about this "sacrifice"? Are we to infer that Jesus Christ is burning in the Lake of Fire forever in our place? If not, ain’t much of a "substitution," is it?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reference is not that Jesus Christ( the anointed one ) is still burning in the Lake of Fire.  Jesus died for our sins, went to hell to pay for our sins, was resurrected ( came back in the flesh ) and now sits at the right hand of God the father acting as the advocate for those who believe in Him against the cries of the accuser. I don’t see how that’s supposed to clear anything up, as Paul (sabutigo) referred to "substitutionary sacrifice," and it was his words I questioned. One and a half days "payment," followed by elevation to such a lofty position, to substitute for eternity? Even purgatory, as suggested by the RCC, is far worse than that. But if you guys want to mix it up over the minutiae of competing mythologies, don’t let me stand in your way (I’d advise you to search a few of his earlier posts, first). I don’t see why your version is supposed to be more believable than his, but there’s no accounting for religious tastes, really.

<snip Jim, considering that Jesus was DESERVING of the exalted position BEFORE he suffered death for us, on and a half days is plenty. Jeus was GOD and completely sinless. In fact, knowing that, one nanosecond would have been plenty if it could have been proved that He was actually dead that long.

Response:

Question:

You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the only one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and see how HE really feels about the practice. Just the facts, ma’am.

Response:

You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the only one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and see how HE really feels about the practice. Just the facts, ma’am.

What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to. Arnold

Response:

You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the only one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and see how HE really feels about the practice. Just the facts, ma’am. What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to. Arnold

Well then Let’s all get drunk and go naked let’s all get drunk and go naked let’s all get drunk and go naked and lie in a great big pile! hammer after shelton

Response:

What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to.

           Where there is no belief, there is no blasphemy.                      –Salman Rushdie in The Satanic Verses

Response:

What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to.            Where there is no belief, there is no blasphemy.                      –Salman Rushdie in The Satanic Verses

The nature of God is not a knowable thing although looking for God in nature has its merits.  As for human behavior, what we are to answer to may be nothing more than the good in one another collectively–the person answers to the community, and the community to the person.  It is in the nature of democratic governments articulate in law the voice of the many who contribute to the system.  Here in the land of godless capitalism, and Bill Gates, democracy has been skewed by the enormous amounts of money involved in the rendering of those laws as well as their debate in the courts after their institution. I’m happy to answer to God and my fellow man–I think the leaders are more worried about their accountants.  Of course, ignoring the accountants, and, these days, attempting to temper capitalism–the intemperate forces of which hold global sway–makes it all the more difficult to address either God or man.  Just ask any Korean businessman or politician you happen to know. //Jim

Response:

What happens if there is no He? Or She? Who answers to whom at that point? If there is no faith in a higher diety, then there is nothing nor anyone to answer to.

What happens is that we then have much more reason to be nice to each other: If you kill a man and he goes to "a better place", then so what?  You’ve simply hurried him through this miserable existence.  But if he simply ends when he dies, then by killing him you have taken from him everything he has or ever could have. If your society persecutes members of one group, and makes their lives miserable for a few short years, what is that compared to "an eternity of bliss".  But if there is no eternal afterlife, you take their entire *existence* and make it miserable; now that’s *cruel*. — Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always. OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265 Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers’ Ass’n, Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe & Kayak Ass’n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass’n, ACA, and AWA Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type in that smiley-face emoticon. Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock’n'Roll.

Response:

:You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions :to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the nly one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and :see how HE really feels about the practice. I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed! :Just the facts, ma’am. I’ve never encountered a Bible thumper really interested in facts.  

Response:

I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!

        Charlie, you can’t hardly find a deeper non-believer than me. But there’s a line, and its called blasphemy, and crossing it flippantly is philistinish enough in its own right much less doing so in a vulgar and unnecessary way. tgb

Response:

I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!    Charlie, you can’t hardly find a deeper non-believer than me. But there’s a line, and its called blasphemy, and crossing it flippantly is philistinish enough in its own right much less doing so in a vulgar and unnecessary way. tgb

I have to agree with TGB here that is way over ANY civil line of behavior. I may not be a christain but I don’t find it in the least proper to say something so vile about something held so holy by so many others. IT ranks up there with saying they want to use your Mother for target practice and your Sister to relieve their needs… Try to exercise a little bit of common decency will ya? DAF

Response:

I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!    Charlie, you can’t hardly find a deeper non-believer than me. But there’s a line, and its called blasphemy, and crossing it flippantly is philistinish enough in its own right much less doing so in a vulgar and unnecessary way.

Well apparently you CAN find deeper non-believers than you!  If you’re such a non-believer, why this worrying about blasphemy?  Unless, of course, you are objecting to the literary value of the book in which case the same would be true of using Wuthering Heights or War and Peace as TP. I personally side with Charles. another Charles

Response:

Hey, Chuck.  When you get to hell, do me a favor and say hello to my ex-wife. :-^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :You all do not have to explain it here.  You only have to explain your actions :to the BIG MAN at your day of judgement.  If you are right or wrong, HE is the nly one you will have to justify it to.  In the meantime, read the Bible and :see how HE really feels about the practice. I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed! :Just the facts, ma’am. I’ve never encountered a Bible thumper really interested in facts.  

Response:

I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!

I really doubt that there’s enough paper, or soap and water, to ‘clean you up’ good. — CANOE NORTH! Rick Etter http://www.bright.net/~retter Step outside.  The graphics are AMAZING!!

Response:

In response to my chiding one Charlie for blasphemy for talking about Well apparently you CAN find deeper non-believers than you!  If you’re such a non-believer, why this worrying about blasphemy?  Unless, of course, you are objecting to the literary value of the book in which case the same would be true of using Wuthering Heights or War and Peace as TP. I personally side with Charles.

        Well, it’s not a matter of literature, it’s a matter of taste, class, a decent respect for the opinions and beliefs of (millions, if not billions) of others, intellectual maturity, a rudimentary understanding of the tenuous nature of our ability to arrive at even simple truths much less ultimate ones, etc., etc., etc. Actually, put this way, maybe it is literary.         Cheers, tgb

Response:

I take a Bible with me all the time on backpacking trips.  It makes very good toilet paper.  I have a trowel, I dig a hole in the earth, and then I tear out as many pages as I need and clean myself up good.  I feel that the Bible is a very useful book indeed!

WATCH OUT FOR LIGHTENING!!!!!!

Response:

and who the fuck are YOU to say people are "trapped"  Where do you fucking bigots get off pissing on people whose lives you don’t agree with.  You’re the one who needs a prayer and all the inbreed, backwood degenerates who think like you.    The Speedbyrd :

We can all see that you put alot of thought into your choice of words. Why must you resort to such senseless flaming? Why can’t we all just get along? I like a good CIVIL discourse of ideas. You should try it. People tend to take civil discussion a tad bit more seriously. You could use such passion for good instead of such ridiculous rantings.                                                                                           Just some observations.                                                   Regards,                                                    Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and who the fuck are YOU to say people are "trapped"  Where do you fucking bigots get off pissing on people whose lives you don’t agree with.  You’re the one who needs a prayer and all the inbreed, backwood degenerates who think like you.       The Speedbyrd : We can all see that you put alot of thought into your choice of words. Why must you resort to such senseless flaming? Why can’t we all just get along? I like a good CIVIL discourse of ideas. You should try it. People tend to take civil discussion a tad bit more seriously. You could use such passion for good instead of such ridiculous rantings.                                                 Just some observations.                                                   Regards,                                                    Jim

Hey Speedey, I wrote earlier that I would continue this ‘discussion’ on alt.discrimination and talk.politics only, but I think now I will not pursue it at all with you.  The reason (and I’ll dumb this down to your level): You’re a silly twit!  Welcome to the filter. hammer

Response:

Question:

Can someone recommend a good book on how to build the best energy efficient homes?  Especially interested in Canadian info. and info on air to air heat exchangers.  Thanks.  Gene Bortmes

There is a book called "Green Home: Planning and building the environmentally advanced house" written by Wayne Grady published by Camden House.  It describes one house in Waterloo that was part of a Canadian sponsored program from a few years ago.  The idea was to build an environmentally friendly house when cradle to grave accounting of resources was taken into account including operating costs for energy etc.  The book is a good read and has lots of good ideas for energy efficiency.  There is also a good list of references in the back. Kevin

Response:

Can someone recommend a good book on how to build the best energy efficient homes?  Especially interested in Canadian info. and info on air to air heat exchangers.  Thanks.  Gene Bortmes

Response:

btw:  Efficient Air to Air Heat exchange systems for Canada are not going to be easy to locate.  Some conservationists would realisticly say that such a form of heating has not advanced technologically enough to be either energy efficient or cost effective above the 40th parallel (just for a quick reference).

  The air-to-air heat exchange systems that are becoming "code" required   in Canada are not for heating purposes (ala heatpumps). They are for   transferring (with minimal loss) heat from heated internal air to   fresh air drawn in for ventilation required by extremely tight construction.                                                                 – Mac

Response:

Do you refer here to a counterflow heat exchanger or an air source heat pump? btw:  Efficient Air to Air Heat exchange systems for Canada are not going to be easy to locate.  Some conservationists would realisticly say that such a form of heating has not advanced technologically enough to be either energy efficient or cost effective above the 40th parallel (just for a quick reference). Let me comment since I live above the 40th parallel:  there are many such units installed and working perfectly fine.  They do, however, need to work in tandem with conventional heating methods for the coldest parts of the year.

I believed that the original poster I responded to was talking about an air source heat pump, and that is what I was referring to.  My appologies for not making this clear. The term ‘air to air heat exchange systems’ is often used in these parts to refer to heat recovery ventilation systems.  These are boxes in the range of $1500 to $2000 that transfer heat from exhaust ducts to intake air (or the other way around during A/C season). Though they are not 100% efficient in recovering the heat (or cooled air), they are necessary when building an airtight home and the inefficiencies are more than made up in the draft-free design of the home.  These, by the way, are now manditory under our building code here in Ontario. —   Calvin Henry-Cotnam, CATE    | "If the women don’t find you handsome, Ryerson Polytechnic University |  they should at least find you handy."   Toronto, Ontario, Canada     |                  - Red Green

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Do you refer here to a counterflow heat exchanger or an air source heat pump? rhg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -btw:  Efficient Air to Air Heat exchange systems for Canada are not going to be easy to locate.  Some conservationists would realisticly say that such a form of heating has not advanced technologically enough to be either energy efficient or cost effective above the 40th parallel (just for a quick reference). Let me comment since I live above the 40th parallel:  there are many such units installed and working perfectly fine.  They do, however, need to work in tandem with conventional heating methods for the coldest parts of the year. —  Calvin Henry-Cotnam, CATE    | "If the women don’t find you handsome, Ryerson Polytechnic University |  they should at least find you handy."  Toronto, Ontario, Canada     |                  - Red Green

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[lotsa good stuff...] btw:  Efficient Air to Air Heat exchange systems for Canada are not going to be easy to locate.  Some conservationists would realisticly say that such a form of heating has not advanced technologically enough to be either energy efficient or cost effective above the 40th parallel (just for a quick reference). Let me comment since I live above the 40th parallel:  there are many such units installed and working perfectly fine.  They do, however, need to work in tandem with conventional heating methods for the coldest parts of the year.

AFAIK Air-to-Air heat exchangers are now code in Ontario.  For that matter, I have also heard that the building code in much of the country is getting pretty close to R2000. A number of links are available here:        http://www.ualberta.ca/~amulder/house/                 — Energy Efficient Housing in Canada WWW site. Sorry to all for continuing this off topic thread. —               ( Sys Admin / Support Analyst, Network Resources )               ( Computing and Network Services, U of Alberta, Edmonton )

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Can someone recommend a good book on how to build the best energy efficient homes?  Especially interested in Canadian info. and info on air to air heat exchangers.  Thanks.  Gene Bortmes

Your best bet is to look into the R2000 home design.  I think the department of the federal government that is responsible for this is the ministry of Energy, Mines, and Resources, but I could be wrong. Anyhow, it was a system of building more energy efficient homes that was developed back in the 70’s.  Features included higher insulation standards, substantial vapour barrier, and air-tight design (and the need for heat-recovery ventilation systems). Officially certified R2000 built homes must be built by R2000-licensed builders, but anyone can build to the standards without official certification.  When R2000 was first developed, the cost of going R2000 over building code standards was over $20,000.  However, since that times, our building codes (especially here in Ontario, soon the rest of the country will follow) have come up to the point where the cost of going R2000 is only about $3000. btw:  Efficient Air to Air Heat exchange systems for Canada are not going to be easy to locate.  Some conservationists would realisticly say that such a form of heating has not advanced technologically enough to be either energy efficient or cost effective above the 40th parallel (just for a quick reference).

Let me comment since I live above the 40th parallel:  there are many such units installed and working perfectly fine.  They do, however, need to work in tandem with conventional heating methods for the coldest parts of the year. —   Calvin Henry-Cotnam, CATE    | "If the women don’t find you handsome, Ryerson Polytechnic University |  they should at least find you handy."   Toronto, Ontario, Canada     |                  - Red Green

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Try CMHC (Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation). Surprisingly good info available. Lots free. One free publication I liked was "Keeping the Heat In, A guide to home insulation". It made a lot of sense. The best feature of CMHC is that they don’t represent any financial interest but your own. They are on the net. Search "CMHC". BTW. Consider active/passive solar. You have windows anyways, why not make them work for you? A book I saw in a library once was "Movable Insulation". Probably out of print. It covered solar heating in very practical terms. Dave Can someone recommend a good book on how to build the best energy efficient homes?  Especially interested in Canadian info. and info on air to air heat exchangers.  Thanks.  Gene Bortmes

– Dave Baggaley Thunder Bay, Ontario

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Can someone recommend a good book on how to build the best energy efficient homes?  Especially interested in Canadian info. and info on air to air heat exchangers.  Thanks.  Gene Bortmes

Energy efficient home design information is readily available on the net from the normal search engines like Yahoo.  You may want to try contacting Real Goods in Ukiah,CA.  They have many items to sell which are highly energy conscious.  They also sell most of the top notch books on energy conservancy as applied to all facets of the building process.  They are at: http://www.well.com/www/rrealgood/  or btw:  Efficient Air to Air Heat exchange systems for Canada are not going to be easy to locate.  Some conservationists would realisticly say that such a form of heating has not advanced technologically enough to be either energy efficient or cost effective above the 40th parallel (just for a quick reference).  You weill want to give serious consideration to Geothermal applications.  These are devoted energy efficient air exchange systems that show great promise now and in the future.  A friend of mine had one installed in his country home near Pittsburgh, PA.  It was extremely efficient and cost effective even though it had a longer pay back period.  Consider also using a maximum passive solar design with superinsulated exterior walls.  These are essential in your northern climate. Best of Luck Ed

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Question:

We are relatively new users of Applied. Had previously been on an AMS system. As you we have six users, pentium file server, fax from each work station, and download from our companies.  Applied 5.0C has some bugs, but the update which is due soon(we’ve been hearing that for some time) is due out soon.  Bugs include: inability to do a BOP app. under prospects, lack of some ACORD forms, errors in some applications. However the faxing from each terminal is great and it does have accounting, billing, all policy detail, marketing and a lot of reports. No payroll program however, even though they tell you they do.  Watch the Applied hardware. After purchasing some of it and using some of our own previously purchased I’m convinced theirs is all reconditioned and we’ve had a lot of problems with it.  Overall for the money, Applied is great when everything is working right.

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You said: I am new to this newsgroup, and I am in the process of selecting an Agency Management system.  I have narrowed my selection down to Agena for Windows, AMS PathFinder, And Applied System’s TAM (their Windows product). I would appreciate any insights on these systems from current/past users. Rick DiGiacomo What do you want it to do?  Define that first and then it is easy to measure what is on the market to what you need. Frank E. Novak

As a frustrated AMS Pathfinder plus user,  and a non impressed Agena for Windows user,  all I can say is GOOD LUCK!  Dont let AMS feed you the 15 months till our full blown windows wysiwyg mamma jamma bannanna version will be released.  We’ve been hearing that bandini for 4 years! Steve

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I am new to this newsgroup, and I am in the process of selecting an Agency Management system.  I have narrowed my selection down to Agena for Windows, AMS PathFinder, And Applied System’s TAM (their Windows product).  I would appreciate any insights on these systems from current/past users. Rick DiGiacomo

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I just started an agency…presently it is me and me alone–hiring 2-3 producers in coming months…looking into a bottom end system…we are an Allstate independent so we put most of our personal lines through their computers, but commercial is another deal completely…so any info would be of help… william I have been evaluating a variety of agency management systems over the past couple of months.  I found what appeared to be a fuctional low-end system in Agency1.  Its by AMS, its DOS Based, and I’m pretty sure it can handle commercial lines.  They will send you a Test Drive Diskette if you ask for it, you get to test drive the system in your office for 30 days. They will require that you let them do a 1 hour tlelphone walk through. The price of the system runs abut $125/month.  Call them at 208-772-8900. If you are in the New England area, your rep will be Tim Davis.  I suggest asking for him anyway, he was very knowledgeable and helpful. We are looking for a top end Windows based product, but for the money, Agency1 looked like the best of the low end systems. Best of luck. Rick DiGiacomo

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I just started an agency…presently it is me and me alone–hiring 2-3 producers in coming months…looking into a bottom end system…we are an Allstate independent so we put most of our personal lines through their computers, but commercial is another deal completely…so any info would be of help… william love is a dog from hell….WOOF ! william redfern or possibly michail ruane

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You said: What do you want it to do?  Define that first and then it is easy to measure what is on the market to what you need. Frank E. Novak Thank you for your response. We are looking for a comprehensive, Windows based agency management system which will work on a 6 workstation network.  The system will be used to manage a customer database including policy information, inquiries, customer history, Acord forms, integrated rating as well as general ledger functions (billing, management reporting ect.).  The system will need to be compatible i.e. be able to import/export information into software packages such as MicroSoft Office 4.3 and have desktop fax capabilities. We will be using Pentium workstations and a Pentium server.  In addition, we plan to download and upload information to our insurance companies.  A plus would be integrated marketing capabilities. Rick DiGiacomo My original message: I am new to this newsgroup, and I am in the process of selecting an Agency Management system.  I have narrowed my selection down to Agena for Windows, AMS PathFinder, And Applied System’s TAM (their Windows product).  I would appreciate any insights on these systems from current/past users. Rick DiGiacomo

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Question:

   Guess what Bolivia, Poland, and Russia have in common?    Economic chaos and Dr. Jeffrey Sachs (not necessarily in that order).    Just goes to prove that economic theories are just that. And economists have    no idea of reality in Minsk, Kiev or Detroit!  Roll the dice…..

  "If you laid all the economists in the world end to end, they’ld STILL point in different directions!"                         Harry S Truman <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< |  email me for GIFS of the Altgens photo of the JFK assasination.       | <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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   I donot hold any personal grudge against economists, but the arrogance of some    of these people as they mould policy and use humans as mere pawns seems to me    a bit too hard to take.

        Let’s not leap out the window with the problems that modern economics hass caused……. It is true that many economic theories have been dynamite on paper and disastrous in practice (Lenin & Stalinist Marxism, for example)           But to make a statement like this seems to be a bit much. I think you are trying to blame very complex econimic/social/political problems upon an overgeneralized group of people.  The actual causes of The former eastern Bloc’s economic woes are not all the fault of the High-Flying Economists.         I would agree that there are many flaws with accounting practices and traditional macroeconmics (you know, the closed-loop system), but those trends are changing    N. Venkateswaran

-Brian Miami U.

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        Guess what Bolivia, Poland, and Russia have in common?         Economic chaos and Dr. Jeffrey Sachs (not necessarily in that order).         Just goes to prove that economic theories are just that. And economists have         no idea of reality in Minsk, Kiev or Detroit!  Roll the dice…..         One wonders what Yeltsin was thinking, when he decided to go in for the         Sachs’s plan. Hadn’t he heard from Bolivia and/or Poland? Or did he actually         believe in the idea that prosperity was round the corner and that prices just         had to be allowed to float up!         Epilogue:                 GM has laid off 70,000 (?) workers. As I said before, Astrologers (IMO) can do a         much better job of predicting the future than the economists. Merlin! Where are         you?         I donot hold any personal grudge against economists, but the arrogance of some         of these people as they mould policy and use humans as mere pawns seems to me         a bit too hard to take.         N. Venkateswaran

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