Question:

Just out of curiosity, what 12 string models are you looking at?  I picked up a Guild JF55-12 a couple years ago and love it.  It seems to hold its tuning very well. Not only are the necks on Guild 12’s beefier, but they have double truss rods that really withstand a lot of pressure and hold up to concert pitch quite well. I second the tuning method of lowers first then octaves second.  It’s worked for me for years. Good luck, Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich Patrick, Nick & Rich, Thanks for the replies.  I can live with your answers… Still trying to choose between a couple nice sounding 12-stringers on the rack. Best, Andy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich Patrick, Nick & Rich, Thanks for the replies.  I can live with your answers… Still trying to choose between a couple nice sounding 12-stringers on the rack. Best, Andy

Be sure to budget for having them set up really well, and learn the trick for tuning it – tune as a pair of six strings.   Tune the "lower" course first, and then tune the octave courses.   You’ll wind up taking three passes or so, but it will actually be faster. Enjoy. -pk

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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others.  Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Contemplating a 12-string… Thanks, Andy

I think no, because I have a picky ear and I only find strings that are not quite right as I play. Then again, if your style has less bending then maybe it will stay in tune because of that diffence. There are more variables than you are accounting for.

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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes?

Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with.

Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich See my gear at the link! http://community.webtv.net/one4rich/RichsGuitarPage

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich

Patrick, Nick & Rich, Thanks for the replies.  I can live with your answers…   Still trying to choose between a couple nice sounding 12-stringers on the rack. Best, Andy

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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others.  Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Contemplating a 12-string… Thanks, Andy

In general?  No.   It depends on the guitar, how well it’s been set up and the condition of the nut relative to the strings, the degree of weather change, etc. The guitar is built stronger but there is the same balance of tension v. strength.   In short, all other things being equal, the change should be the same or worse, as there is more potential for dissonance within the courses. -pk

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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others.  Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Contemplating a 12-string… Thanks, Andy

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Question:

Here are question related to Corporate expenses etc. 1) Is it smart to purchase a very large amount of inventory of product a corporation would sell anyway within 1 year ?  to make this purchase 1 month in advance of corp. year end? Can you write off the entire amount as an expense in this case and thus reap the benefits for the current fiscal? 2) What about consumables (things that are used up quickly such as coffee, paper, products used in manufacturing your finished products, etc… ) to elevate the expenses in the current fiscal year?

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message Here are question related to Corporate expenses etc. 1) Is it smart to purchase a very large amount of inventory of product a corporation would sell anyway within 1 year ?  to make this purchase 1 month in advance of corp. year end? Can you write off the entire amount as an expense in this case and thus reap the benefits for the current fiscal? 2) What about consumables (things that are used up quickly such as coffee, paper, products used in manufacturing your finished products, etc… ) to elevate the expenses in the current fiscal year?

it depends on things such as accrual vs cash accounting, the nature of the item in question,  type of business,  etc.   If you have a real business you should consult with a real accountant to save you real money !

Response:

Here are question related to Corporate expenses etc. 1) Is it smart to purchase a very large amount of inventory of product a corporation would sell anyway within 1 year ?  to make this purchase 1 month in advance of corp. year end?

Not really, unless you are the one selling the inventory to the business, and you’re on commission. Can you write off the entire amount as an expense in this case and thus reap the benefits for the current fiscal?

nope, and here’s the bite:  The invemtory on hand is an asset, and one that’s not all that liquid.  So, all you’ve done is, reduce Cash (or increase the Accounts Payable) and increase Inventory (a shifting from one asset to another). Inventory purchased is expensed ONLY what it gets sold, which wouldn’t happen for another few months or so. 2) What about consumables (things that are used up quickly such as coffee, paper, products used in manufacturing your finished products, etc… ) to elevate the expenses in the current fiscal year?

Office supplies are generally expensed when purchased in a smaller business (don’t rightly know what the mega-corporations do), so you can play a bit with your bottom line by buying paper and supplies right before year-end. But in the end, all you’ve done is shift the expense from the later year to the earlier year. "Products used in manufacturing your finished products" is an inventory item in most cases, and per tax law you may be required to carry this as such. Again, no real benefit. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

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Question:

I would like (need) to change my accounting method from a modified cash basis to accrual.  Has anyone here done that before?  Can I do it myself or should I get help with it from a CPA?  Can the instructions be any more confusing? Thanks for any help. Paul remove second pvm for reply

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I would like (need) to change my accounting method from a modified cash basis to accrual.  Has anyone here done that before?  Can I do it myself or should I get help with it from a CPA?  Can the instructions be any more confusing? Thanks for any help.

If you find the instructions confusing, I would strongly suggest you retain a tax pro like a CPA or EA to assist you. Tom –Solving your tax and business problems with Professional Service…Personal Attention Web: http://www.tomhealycpa.com

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Question:

Hello! I am looking to help people in the US and Canada who may be or have ever been buried under the tremendous cost of attorney fees.  I just recently signed up as a member (and actually just became an associate once I saw the power behind this service) for a company called Prepaid Legal Services. This program is legitimate and has helped me tremendously with my post-Divorce legal matters.  Had I known about this service before my divorce, I would have save THOUSANDS of dollars in attorney fees. Two plans are offered by the company:     * Individual – $17 per month     * Family     – $25 per month The benefits breakdown is too complex to describe here since coverage varies slightly from State to State.  If you go to my website, you will find all the information there broken down by individual State or Province. If you still have questions, either about the company or how the company has helped me personally, please feel free to call anytime.  I’m fairly busy, so please leave a voicemail if I don’t answer and I WILL return your call.  I am genuinely convinced that this company will help change the lives of many people and I want to be a part of bringing that to fruition. Thank you and I look forward to working with you! Steve Hampton www.prepaidlegal.com/go/stevenhampton 505-350-3826

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In South Africa there are also companies that offer this, but a common characteristic is that domestic issues are excluded e.g. divorce, custody, maintenance and domestic violence, as well as pre-existing situations. Read the fine print before you sign up… — –Tariffs– -Answers: $1-00 -Answers requiring thought: $10-00 -Correct answers: $50-00 -Special for this month only: dumb looks are still free.

Hello! I am looking to help people in the US and Canada

who may be or have ever been buried under the tremendous cost of attorney

fees.  I just recently signed up as a member (and actually just became

an associate once I saw the power behind this service) for a company called

Prepaid Legal Services. This program is legitimate and has helped me

tremendously with my post-Divorce legal matters.  Had I known about

this service before my divorce, I would have save THOUSANDS of dollars in attorney fees. Two plans are offered by the company:    * Individual – $17 per month    * Family     – $25 per month The benefits breakdown is too complex to describe

here since coverage varies slightly from State to State.  If you go to my

website, you will find all the information there broken down by individual State or Province. If you still have questions, either about the

company or how the company has helped me personally, please feel free to call

anytime.  I’m fairly busy, so please leave a voicemail if I don’t answer and I

WILL return your call.  I am genuinely convinced that this company will

help change the lives of many – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -people and I want to be a part of bringing that to fruition. Thank you and I look forward to working with you! Steve Hampton www.prepaidlegal.com/go/stevenhampton 505-350-3826

Response:

Hello! I am looking to help people in the US and Canada who may be or have ever been buried under the tremendous cost of attorney fees.  I just recently signed up as a member (and actually just became an associate once I saw the power behind this service) for a company called Prepaid Legal Services.

Just a quick note to the unwary – Prepaid Legal is a rip-off, these schemes are run by the stupidest bunch that I can remember coming across. I’ve got over 20 years in the business and financial field, and I can assure you that Prepaid Legal is a scam. Best – Fido

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Just a quick note to the unwary – Prepaid Legal is a A what? Your words are pretty strong……

I’ve been doing this for too long. I’ve listened to too many prepaid legal schpiels, and I’ve known of too many "salesmen" that got suckered into shilling for this racket to have the smallest amount of respect for this crap. Crap. Is that a better word? Their service is very useful for someone with realistic expectations of what they get.

Yeah, yeah, it’s a big bargain. You will certainly get you money’s worth. Not. Expensive, ripoff lawyers may not like them, but the public should.

There are a lot of things the Bar Association doesn’t like but I doubt if they care too much about Pre-paid Legal. I’d be surprised if they lose a single billable hour because of the thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ray Gordon, the jerk women love

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A what? Your words are pretty strong…… I’ve been doing this for too long. I’ve listened to too many prepaid legal schpiels, and I’ve known of too many "salesmen" that got suckered into shilling for this racket to have the smallest amount of respect for this crap. Crap. Is that a better word? Definitely NOT.  Someone with REASONABLE expectations from this type of service can get WONDERS done with it. For example, I can break up an internet case among four states with attorneys who will work TOGETHER and not all bill me redundantly, with a lot of the preliminary work INCLUDED in the premiums. Their service is very useful for someone with realistic expectations of what they get. Yeah, yeah, it’s a big bargain. You will certainly get you money’s worth. Not. Do you realize you’re defaming this company? Expensive, ripoff lawyers may not like them, but the public should. There are a lot of things the Bar Association doesn’t like but I doubt if they care too much about Pre-paid Legal. I’d be surprised if they lose a single billable hour because of the thing. Since PPL’s lawyers are bar members in good standing, probably not.

Drip, drip. drip…

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<snip Do you realize you’re defaming this company?

<snip How do you defame a spammer?   Can you really defame scum? Thana …

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Drip, drip. drip…

Oh, man, hope you don’t have the clap! Best – Fido

Response:

Do you realize you’re defaming this company?

I am doing nothing of the sort. Their actions and sales tactics speak for themselves. No matter how thin you slice it, it’s still crap. Best – Fido ( "Pre-paid Legal is Crap!" TM )

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Oh, man, hope you don’t have the clap!

No, just watching ice melt. It’s more exciting and productive than responding or reading posts by BFAL. GGG

Response:

<snip Do you realize you’re defaming this company? <snip How do you defame a spammer?   Can you really defame scum?

Actually, pre-paid Legal, despite the fact that over-eager salesmen feel compelled to post *here*, is listed on the NYSE, I think. Some fun facts: The company collected about 30 million dollars in "associate service" fees from their salespeople, which is what the salesmen *pay* the company for the privilege of touting their product. The sales structure is classic multi-level marketing. In the cost department, about a third of the company’s collected legal premiums go to the 1,000 or so lawyers, who work for PPD on a fixed monthly fee basis. About the same amount goes commissions and marketing. Actually, the company spends a little more on commissions and marketing then it does on legal services. After administrative costs and taxes payments, the company showed a cash profit of about 15 million, which it used to buy back its own stock. Profit accounting by the company has been mildly aggressive, they show a pre-tax accounting profit of about 70 million, but the SEC has gently challenged some of their accounting policies – for example, when an "associate" (salesperson) sells a prepaid legal contract, that salesman receives a commission up front. Rather then call these commission payments expenses, the company calls them "assets". It occurred to the SEC that the company was never going to collect those "assets" and required that the company write *some of them* off. Even after that gentle SEC rebuke, the company is still showing $155 million dollars of prior payments to salesmen on its balance sheet as "assets". Oh, well, the historical accounting model is outdated, anyway, I don’t even know why those old-fashioned quill and parchment auditors, who don’t understand the new economy anyway, even bother with stuff like "balance sheets" anymore. What a useless concept in our virtual economy. Are PPD legal customers satisfied? Well, consider that about half of the PPD customers leave the program after a little more then a year, on average. Actually, my analysis on this company shows it to be a more substantial thing then I imagined. The hyped-up salesmen, though, who resort to spam to peddle this thing, and the promise of financial independence that the MLM marketing pyramid entails, frankly, though, leave me with the strong impression of "sleeze" when I think Prepaid Legal. And, really, they could clean up their balance sheet a bit. Hey, Harland, take a hundred million dollar hit, (and then some,) and get this thing on track. They can *not* continue to puff assets, while squeezing liabilities forever in order to show the percentage growth that keeps them in Inc. Magazine, or whoever they are trying to impress. Best – Fido – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thana …

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Question:

Yes, I do.  As throughout there history, the states will go to great lengths to get revenue.  My current favorite is the tobacco settlement. The settlement was going to use all that money to protect people from tobacco. (If so why didn’t they just outlaw it, because they wanted the money.)  Now you have the states dumping it into the general fund for all kinds of get reelected stunts.   I seem to recall that Illinois, a dual track (certificate separate from right to practice) used to award certificates to non residents. Probably changed that by now, although I find it hard to believe they would forgo the additional revenue.  I seem to recall a women who was a librarian, went to Illinois, took an accounting degree, passed the test, was awarded the certificate, and got a job as an assistant professor. No practice involved.  I also think Wyoming and Idaho used to be dual track licensing states, but I think they required residency. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The state getting the license fees. … Also, I am not aware of any public purpose that would be advanced by doing so. Ron, If you actually believe this you and I are further apart than I thought.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * * Unemployed for five years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I do.  As throughout there history, the states will go to great lengths to get revenue.  My current favorite is the tobacco settlement. The settlement was going to use all that money to protect people from tobacco. (If so why didn’t they just outlaw it, because they wanted the money.)  Now you have the states dumping it into the general fund for all kinds of get reelected stunts. I seem to recall that Illinois, a dual track (certificate separate from right to practice) used to award certificates to non residents. Probably changed that by now, although I find it hard to believe they would forgo the additional revenue.  I seem to recall a women who was a librarian, went to Illinois, took an accounting degree, passed the test, was awarded the certificate, and got a job as an assistant professor. No practice involved.  I also think Wyoming and Idaho used to be dual track licensing states, but I think they required residency. The state getting the license fees. … Also, I am not aware of any public purpose that would be advanced by doing so. Ron, If you actually believe this you and I are further apart than I thought.

OK Ron, I will concede that the collection of fees could be construed as a public purpose. I was in a hurry and I screwed up.  I omitted a modifier.  What I intended to say was "any ACCEPTABLE public purpose". — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Announcement to all members: Due to the latest developments in the Middle East, I would like to inform you that Israeli Internal Auditors are conducting Internal Auditing in Israeli companies, on behalf of American / European Internal Auditors who prefer not to come personally to Israel. This service might be suitable for American / European companies who have branches in Israel or investments in Israeli companies. For further details contact Mr. Sharon Goteiner, CPA (Isr.) at Sincerely yours, Sharon Goteiner, CPA (Isr.)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Announcement to all members:  Due to the latest developments in the Middle East, I would like to inform  you that Israeli Internal Auditors are conducting Internal Auditing in  Israeli companies, on behalf of American / European Internal Auditors who  prefer not to come personally to Israel. This service might be suitable for  American / European companies who have branches in Israel or investments in  Israeli companies.  For further details contact Mr. Sharon Goteiner, CPA (Isr.) at  Sincerely yours,  Sharon Goteiner, CPA (Isr.)

Please let me know (see link below) if you need any additional qualified manpower. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete and inform sender. www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

Response:

The state getting the license fees.

… Also, I am not aware of any public purpose that would be advanced by doing so.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * * Unemployed for five years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

The state getting the license fees. … Also, I am not aware of any public purpose that would be advanced by doing so.

Ron, If you actually believe this you and I are further apart than I thought. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Can anyone suggest states that will issue CPA certificates (as opposed to licenses) under the following conditions: 1) passed multi-state exam 2) have 24 semester hrs in accounting 3) have 0 hours in auditing 4) not a resident of that state 5) have 150hrs of college credits Any ideas? thanks, kaiwen kai3wen2  (at)  hotmail.com

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Check out  http://www.aicpa.org/nolimits/become/index.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone suggest states that will issue CPA certificates (as opposed to licenses) under the following conditions: 1) passed multi-state exam 2) have 24 semester hrs in accounting 3) have 0 hours in auditing 4) not a resident of that state 5) have 150hrs of college credits

  LorinPA.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

Check out  http://www.aicpa.org/nolimits/become/index.htm Can anyone suggest states that will issue CPA certificates (as opposed to licenses) under the following conditions: 1) passed multi-state exam 2) have 24 semester hrs in accounting 3) have 0 hours in auditing 4) not a resident of that state 5) have 150hrs of college credits

There may be one or more jurisdictions that do this, however I am not aware of any. Also, I am not aware of any public purpose that would be advanced by doing so. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Question:

he US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission.

Tell me about it. Freakin’ Sudan of all places! Where slavery still goes on to this day. The UN is a joke.

Response:

he US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission. Tell me about it. Freakin’ Sudan of all places! Where slavery still goes on to this day. The UN is a joke.

You got that right, DA. I was in Israel last year when the hummus hit the fan, and some of the UN "peacekeepers" (what a joke) were stayng at the same place I was (those assholes double-parked their Vanagons and 4WDs all the time). As soon as the shooting started, we had IDF aircraft doing low-levels on their way to make their milk runs to Netzarim Junction, and the UN boys were gone. :O|

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http://stormfront.org www.spearhead-uk.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good for us, and good for Isreal. Why should they attend a conference where the vast majority of the participants are only interested in blaming them for the world’s ills, when most of them have done far worse. The US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission.    Also, the conference was going to tunr into the sequel of the infamous Wansee Conference.    Those balck South Africans who demonstrated against the conference knew what was REALLY going on.

   The US is a colony of the Jews and exists only to serve the Jews. US aid to Israel – Tax Dollars Soaked in Blood by Susan Abulhawa With 400 Palestinians killed and over 10,000 wounded (most of them severely), the Israeli lobby is requesting a new pile of American tax dollars ($450 million) for ‘emergency aid.’ Part of this money is being requested to compensate Israel for withdrawing from a 20 year occupation of Southern Lebanon. Excuse me! Israel invaded Lebanon, used the world banned cluster bombs to kill 20,000 civilians (stories that would make your skin crawl), destroyed the countries infrastructure and occupied its people for two decades. Now they want to be compensated for finally obeying international law and getting out of land where they have no business being? If anyone ought to be compensated, it’s the Lebanese people. At any rate, its not the responsibility of the American tax payer to pay up. Israel is an outlaw state in violation of numerous UN Resolution and various tenets of international laws. Congress should stop behaving as though we’re some kind of Israeli colony bowing to her every whim. Israel, whose population is 0.1% of the total world population gets roughly one-third of all US foreign aid. In addition to the $5,000,000,000 in aid, Israel enjoys the benefits of a whole lot more US tax payer money. For example, there are special "gifts" like the Arrow Missile and Levi Fighter, totaling $1.3 billion. Tax payers must also pay interest on money borrowed for Israel’s grants– about $500 million per year. Private donations to Israel are tax-deductible and total about $1 billion annually. This does not include the Israeli bonds sold in the US for $500 million each year. Despite US restrictions on using money to build illegal settlements on Palestinian land, Israel has spent hundreds of millions of our dollars importing Jews from across the world, confiscating Palestinian land and demolishing their homes to make way for brand new settlements for the new arrivals. That’s not all. The US also pays Egypt $2.1 billion/year for signing a peace treaty with Israel and is asked to pay umpteen billions of tax payer dollars every time Israel notions that is will consider a pull-back from occupied territories. For example, during peace talks with Syria, Israel demanded that the US foot a bill of $17 billion for its withdrawal from the Golan Heights, where it has illegally been occupying Syrian land and stealing Syrian resources for over 33 years. Basically, the US taxpayers have to pay Israel in order for Israel to obey international law and respect the sovereignty of other nations. At the same time Congress cut the welfare budget by $5.3 billions, aid to Israel that year was $5.2 billion. Indeed, as filmmaker Tom Hayes said: "from the mouths of America’s poor onto the necks of Palestinians." The so called "peace process" is sure to cost us yet more tens of billions of dollars in payment for Israel’s insatiable appetite for Arab soil and its unrelenting thievery of other’s resources. Try getting an iota of that money for your state. You’re lucky if you can hold onto school lunch programs. Of course, some of that money trickles back to the US in the form of campaign funding. These campaign "donations" account for Israel’s power over US foreign policies. So, what has Israel done for us? Israel has spied on the US. By the way, a contribution to the ‘free Jonathan Pollard’ fund is tax deductible. According to the CIA, Israel commits industrial espionage against American businesses. They have exported sensitive US technology to other countries, some of which are potentially hostile to the U.S., in direct contravention of U.S. law. In 1967 Israel attacked the USS Liberty killing 34 American crewmen and wounding 171. Despite thirty three years of unrelenting pleas from the survivors of that ship, Congress will not afford our servicemen the decency of an investigation and has refused to hold a Congressional hearing for an act of aggression against Americans in a time of peace despite astounding evidence. Maybe they will when there are no more survivors to speak and the only testimonies will come from Israeli-chosen "witnesses." http://www.halcyon.com/jim/ussliberty/ Israel has a healthy economy and gets piles of money and other aid from Germany every year. If this US-Israel marriage is indeed in our best interest then why do they need such a strong well-funded lobby in our Congress? Continuing to be the lone veto that keeps the international community from investigating Israel’s breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention cannot possibly be in our best interest. Patting Israel on the back while the rest of the world condemns it’s flagrant violations of human rights does not mesh with the principles on which this country was founded. Retired Navy Admiral, Thomas Moorer, was quoted in a book by Paul Findley, former congressman from Illinois, as saying "I’ve never seen an president- I don’t care who he is- stand up to [the Israelis]. It just boggles your mind*.If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://stormfront.org www.spearhead-uk.com Good for us, and good for Isreal. Why should they attend a conference where the vast majority of the participants are only interested in blaming them for the world’s ills, when most of them have done far worse. The US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission.    Also, the conference was going to tunr into the sequel of the infamous Wansee Conference.    Those balck South Africans who demonstrated against the conference knew what was REALLY going on.   The US is a colony of the Jews and exists only to serve the Jews.

   Well, we know what happened to a certain central European nation which existed to serve only Nazis.    Aren’t you supposed to be bashing Jews at the UN Conference?  Michael

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://stormfront.org www.spearhead-uk.com Good for us, and good for Isreal. Why should they attend a conference where the vast majority of the participants are only interested in blaming them for the world’s ills, when most of them have done far worse. The US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission.    Also, the conference was going to tunr into the sequel of the infamous Wansee Conference.    Those balck South Africans who demonstrated against the conference knew what was REALLY going on.   The US is a colony of the Jews and exists only to serve the Jews.    Well, we know what happened to a certain central European nation which existed to serve only Nazis.    Aren’t you supposed to be bashing Jews at the UN Conference?  Michael

While some of his stuff is the typical anti Jewish rant, much of what he wrote has absolute validity.  Sadly, I agree that U.S. support of Israel is not in our national interest at all. True, the U.N. Durbnin Conference is a joke, stacked against the U.S. and against Israel, and I support the U.S. not lending credibility by attending. At the same time I would support a real re-examination of our Middle East policy, especially as regards Isreal.  They have routinely broken agreements with the United States with regards to the offensive use of weapons specifically sold for, and promised by Israel to be used for, defensive purposes.  And the Jonathan Pollard case, their ongoing espionage activities, and the Liberty ship attack warrant serious examination and repercussion which will never happen. Without the financial support of the United States, Israel would last about ten minutes.  With it, much of the world hates us, and Arab/Islamic terrorism is an accepted fact of life.

Response:

Key address by Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz, President of the Republic of Cuba, at the World Conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance. Durban, South Africa. September 1, 2001.

   The reason they did this is because some anti-Jewish Arabs were going to turn this into the sequel of the Wansee Conference.    Note that most of the protestors against this conference wwere black South Africans.  Michael

Response:

Lip service. In what way Castro is insincere?

   He is pretending to care about human rights.  Michael

Response:

Good for us, and good for Isreal. Why should they attend a conference where the vast majority of the participants are only interested in blaming them for the world’s ills, when most of them have done far worse. The US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission.

   Also, the conference was going to tunr into the sequel of the infamous Wansee Conference.    Those balck South Africans who demonstrated against the conference knew what was REALLY going on.  Michael

Response:

Key address by Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz, President of the Republic of Cuba, at the World Conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance. Durban, South Africa. September 1, 2001.

Well, we know whose Gran Cigarro you have been smoking, Rottenart.

Response:

Lip service. In what way Castro is insincere?

In what way does anything you say bear any resemblance to reality?

Response:

Lip service.

Response:

Good for us, and good for Isreal. Why should they attend a conference where the vast majority of the participants are only interested in blaming them for the world’s ills, when most of them have done far worse. The US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission.

Key address by Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz, President of the Republic of Cuba, at the World Conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance. Durban, South Africa. September 1, 2001. Excellencies: Delegates and guests: Racism, racial discrimination and xenophobia are not naturally instinctive reactions of the human beings but rather a social, cultural and political phenomenon born directly of wars, military conquests, slavery and the individual or collective exploitation of the weakest by the most powerful all along the history of human societies.

Does anyone from Cuba – one of the last remaining Communist dictatorships and one of the worst human rights offenders in the western hemisphere – have any right lecturing the US?

Response:

Why?? Because the US is ashamed to admit it’s treated/ing it’s own indigenous peoples pretty much the same way as Israel is treating theirs. Too bad Israel is so quick to forget the past, the first thing the Nazi’s did in their occupied countries was to put the Jews behind a wall creating a ghetto.  Remember Warsaw? "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it." I decry what was done during Nazi Germany as much as the next person, but I also can see the parallels, too bad the Israeli’s cannot. wapini hota

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good for us, and good for Isreal. Why should they attend a conference where the vast majority of the participants are only interested in blaming them for the world’s ills, when most of them have done far worse. The US should have defunded the UN and withdrawn the minute that China and Sudan were named to the Human Rights commission. Key address by Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz, President of the Republic of Cuba, at the World Conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance. Durban, South Africa. September 1, 2001. Excellencies: Delegates and guests: Racism, racial discrimination and xenophobia are not naturally instinctive reactions of the human beings but rather a social, cultural and political phenomenon born directly of wars, military conquests, slavery and the individual or collective exploitation of the weakest by the most powerful all along the history of human societies. Does anyone from Cuba – one of the last remaining Communist dictatorships and one of the worst human rights offenders in the western hemisphere – have any right lecturing the US?

Response:

Why?? Because the US is ashamed to admit it’s treated/ing it’s own indigenous peoples pretty much the same way as Israel is treating theirs.

The US has made more than amends, with trillions of dollars worth of welfare and social spending, as well as codifying in it’s laws that racial discrimination is wrong. Now kindly tell us what type of stellar record the 2 newest members of the UN human rights council – The PRC and Sudan – have to hold up as an example while they are lecturing the US and Israel. In case you weren’t aware of it, both China and Sudan currently practice slavery, and conduct state-sponsored persecution of minority ethnic and religious groups.  Why should we listen to them lecture us about things that we have torn apart our countries to amend and correct? Too bad Israel is so quick to forget the past, the first thing the Nazi’s did in their occupied countries was to put the Jews behind a wall creating a ghetto.  Remember Warsaw?

Ever spent any time in the Middle East? I have, and if anybody there is racist, it’s the Palestinian Arabs. Not that the Israelis are perfect, but they aren’t advocating murdering people based on their religion or ethnicity. I decry what was done during Nazi Germany as much as the next person, but I also can see the parallels, too bad the Israeli’s cannot.

You need to do some research beyond digesting media sound bites.

Response:

Why?? Because the US is ashamed to admit it’s treated/ing it’s own indigenous peoples pretty much the same way as Israel is treating theirs. Too bad Israel is so quick to forget the past, the first thing the Nazi’s did in their occupied countries was to put the Jews behind a wall creating a ghetto.  Remember Warsaw?

us, and good ZIP ZAP** Jeannine, It is called: "Identification with the abuser"

Response:

Lip service.

In what way Castro is insincere? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Lip service. In what way Castro is insincere?

He’s pretending to be concerned about human rights, despite his own record. Do you know ANYTHING about Cuba? Doesn’t sound like it.

Response:

Key address by Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz, President of the Republic of Cuba, at the World Conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance. Durban, South Africa. September 1, 2001. Excellencies: Delegates and guests: Racism, racial discrimination and xenophobia are not naturally instinctive reactions of the human beings but rather a social, cultural and political phenomenon born directly of wars, military conquests, slavery and the individual or collective exploitation of the weakest by the most powerful all along the history of human societies. No one has the right to boycott this Conference which tries to bring some sort of relief to the overwhelming majority of mankind afflicted by unbearable suffering and enormous injustice. Neither has anyone the right to set preconditions to this conference or urge it to avoid the discussion of historical responsibility, fair compensation or the way we decide to rate the dreadful genocide perpetrated, at this very moment, against our Palestinian brothers by extreme right leaders who, in alliance with the hegemonic superpower, pretend to be acting on behalf of another people which throughout almost two thousand years was the victim of the most fierce persecution, discrimination and injustice that history has known. Cuba speaks of reparations, and supports this idea as an unavoidable moral duty to the victims of racism, based on a major precedent, that is, the indemnification being paid to the descendants of the Hebrew people which in the very heart of Europe suffered the brutal and loathsome racist holocaust. However, it is not with the intent to undertake an impossible search for the direct descendants or the specific countries of the victims of actions occurred throughout centuries. The irrefutable truth is that tens of millions of Africans were captured, sold like a commodity and sent beyond the Atlantic to work in slavery while 70 million indigenous people in that hemisphere perished as a result of the European conquest and colonization. The inhuman exploitation imposed on the peoples of three continents, including Asia, marked forever the destiny and lives of over 4.5 billion people living in the Third World today whose poverty, unemployment, illiteracy and health rates as well as their infant mortality, life expectancy and other calamities –too many, in fact, to enumerate here– are certainly awesome and harrowing. They are the current victims of that atrocity which lasted centuries and the ones who clearly deserve compensation for the horrendous crimes perpetrated against their ancestors and peoples. Actually, such a brutal exploitation did not end when many countries became independent, not even after the formal abolition of slavery. Right after independence, the main ideologists of the American Union that emerged when the 13 colonies got rid of the British domination at the end of the 18th century, advanced ideas and strategies unquestionably expansionist in nature. It was based on such ideas that the ancient white settlers of European descent, in their march to the West, forcibly occupied the lands in which Native-Americans had lived for thousands of years thus exterminating millions of them in the process. But, they did not stop at the boundaries of the former Spanish possessions; consequently Mexico, a Latin American country that had attained its independence in 1821, was stripped off millions of square kilometers of territory and invaluable natural resources. Meanwhile, in the increasingly powerful and expansionist nation born in North America, the obnoxious and inhumane slavery system stayed in place for almost a century after the famous Declaration of Independence of 1776 was issued, the same that proclaimed that all men were born free and equal. After the purely formal slave emancipation, African-Americans were subjected during one hundred more years to the harshest racial discrimination, and many of its features and consequences still persist after almost four more decades of heroic struggles and the achievements of the 1960

Question:

That was the whole point of my post – the actual Ogam symbols themselves were of Irish origin, but the grouping of the consonants and vowels – even the names assigned to the letters – were the result of Latin (and also Greek) influence. The Celts did not live in a cultural vacuum – there was never a period of "pure" Celtic culture – they were constantly receiving outside influence, just as they exerted influence on others. They did not develop their own alphabet out of thin air – they adapted foreign alphabets to suit their needs. You just don’t see any writing in Ireland prior to the arrival of Romans in Britain – just as you don’t see writing in Gaul until contact with the Etruscans, Greeks, Iberians and Romans. Ogam is just an adapted Roman alphabet – perhaps applied to pre-existing tally-mark system – but nonetheless, of mixed origins.

(snippers) Interesting post. I am going under the assumption you’ve material to reference this to? Daibh — "D’aithle na bhfileadh n-uasal, truaghsan timheal an tsaoghail." [Now with all the High Bards gone, sad is the waning of the world.] (We are now set up for on-line herb orders at www.facetsconsulting.com/wrensnest, thanks for visiting.)

Response:

Of course, what I was saying in my previous message was that the concept of the Ogham greatly predates its use in writing (in much the same way that the sounds, mantras and words of the Vedas greatly predate the development of the Sanskrit written alphabet).  It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that spoken language and sounds predate the invention of written language.

Indeed it does not – and this non-rocket scientist never suggested that language predated writing – so I don’t know why you bothered posting this irrelevancy. I love it! The Greeks used the Beta tree for making Beta paper and funny party hats I suppose and they used the Alpha tree for structures. Let’s see…. yes please send me a cart load of Alpha trees for my next housing project. After all, it *is* the Acropolis don’t you know?

Quite amazing – someone claiming such erudition seems to be having a problem understanding basic English and its syntax. If you re-read my post you will notice that I did not once say that the Greek – or any other alphabet other than one specific variation of the Ogam – was based on names for trees. Don’t give up that day job for a carerr in comedy, BTW The Tau and the Tine connection is equally laughable since the "t" sound in Irish is actually a "tch" in the case of the Ogham.

You are a bright one, aren’t you? Did’t you know that archaic Irish (the language that was in existence during the time that Ogam was being used in Britain and Ireland) pronunciation was quite removed from modern pronunciation? You just blew any chance with me of seeming to know what you are talkling about. Do we see a pattern from all of these non-relationships yet? Almost every scholar I’ve read and studied admits that the names of the Ogham letters (not to mention their kennings) are Irish names for sounds native to the Irish language and that Ogham is *the* source for understanding the earliest forms of Irish.  It’s simple Ogham = Earliest Irish = Irish sounds.

Oh lord. Once again, read my posts again – I already said that the names for the Ogams were Irish – but that they were a play on words (actually a substitution of a native word for a foreign word). BTW – Ogam does not "equal" Archaic Irish (no more than the Roman alphabet "equals" Latin – otherwise, we would all be writing Latin). Archaic Irish was sometimes written using Ogam and even occasionally written using the Latin alphabet. Look in any book on Indo-European language and origins Such as _Celts and Aryans_ by Myles Dillon, In Search of thee Indo-Europeans_ by J.P. Mallory or _Archaeology & Language, The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins_ by Colin Renfrew to better understand that the languages of the Celts had much in common with those of the Greeks, Romans and other Europeans when one travels back into time.  Each of these books has tables showing the commonality of language, words and sounds among the Indo-Europeans.  After all, it *is* a language group.:-)

No sh#t, Sherlock. I happen to have been studying and writing about Celtic and Indo European History, Language, and Mythology for 15 years now. I suggest you do a little more reading yourself – and with a more open mind about cultural transactions in antiquity. Before you buy.

Response:

I apologize to those of you who may have already read this information before but feel that its presentation here and now will bring some clarity to those who are not familiar with the Ogham. Perhaps this post may also be informative to those who have already studied some of the literature about them. At any rate, I thought so additional information regarding Ogham would go a long way toward heading off some outdated thoughts about it. The Ogham came into being during the time of the Druids and they continued to be used by the Filidh up until almost the present day. The Ogham inscriptions that have survived in Ireland are dated to as early as the 4th century CE.  The mentions of Ogham usage in the insular literature date its use back to the beginnings of the Common Era (CE). As has been already been noted, the concepts associated with the Ogham and the reported use of the Ogham by the Draoith and Filidh far predate its use as a script on stones in Irish tradition and literature. There are many *theories* held by scholars about the beginnings of Ogham. Some scholars believed it to be related to the Runes (Graves and Arntz). Colin Renfrew places its creation to 4th century Ireland (_Archaeology & Language_). R.A.S. Macalister said that it was based on a Chalcidic variety of the Greek alphabet and a form of hand signaling dating to circa 500 BCE (_The Archaeology of Ireland_). Zimmer and O’Reilly tended to agree with his origins of Ogham in Gaul theory. Scholars such as Thurneyson, Vendryes, Menninger, Gerschel, and McManus suggest that the Ogham is a fusion of the tally stick concept and an ancient identifying-mnemonic system (McManus in _A Guide to Ogham_). This places the origins of Ogham and its concepts back possibly to 25,000 BCE (tally sticks) and/or to the time of its reported use by *Druids* in the tales (1000 BCE to about 600 CE). Druids were still being referenced in the Brehon laws until about the end of that period and Patrick and Columcille were said to have engaged in competitions with them IIRC. The Ogham was taught at the beginning of the education of Druids and Filidh as a way of memorizing lists of information and as keys to information contained in the tales and the epic poetry of the traditions (see Caulder in _Auraceipt na n-E/ces_ and Mac Cana in _The Learned Tales of Medieval Ireland_). The following points serve to indicate that Ogham is a native Irish tradition and that its written grammar is only influenced by the knowledge of its teachers regarding Latin: 1. The Ogham model the groupings of the vowels in Irish as "a ou ei" rather than the Latin "aeiou." 2. The letters p and f are left out of the original Ogham alphabet (the f in Ogham is actually a w or v sound and p suffers fron the P-Celtic – Q-Celtic split. 3. The entire sequence of the letters is different from that of Latin. 4. They grouped the consonants and the vowels separately in a manner that seems closer to the way that Sanskrit is represented than that of either Greek or Latin. 5. They retained original sounds and name/phrases for the letters rather than giving them short, simple phonetic names. The tree names are only one example of this. The Bri/artharogam are possibly the older more meaningful instances. 6. They associated the letter names and phonetic initial sounds in groups that bore relationship to one another. This is to be seen in the coupling of d and t, c and q, g and ng. 7. They also included letters that were compound letters (ng and sr). 8. The letter shapes and inscriptions look nothing like Latin or almost any other language (with the exception of tally marks). 9. The Ogham (excluding the diphthongs have possibly three different ways to express "u" sounds (f, h and u proper). It is because of these nine major points that scholars like McManus assign an Irish origin to both the Ogham and its form of inscription. Ogham is also documented in its use among the pre-Christian Filidh. O’Curry translated several passages about the use of "tabhall-lorg" or "taibhli filedh." These were considered by O’Curry to be collections of Ogham inscribed wooden staves that were bound together with leather thongs or satchels. There are instances where a Poet was asked to "sing a stave of poetry." Why should this be except that the composition was inscribed both literally and musically on a stave of wood? The later scholars of Ireland seemed to have continued this practice by carrying their books around as leaves of paper in leather satchels. These books were hung on pegs in their libraries when not in use (presumably to keep them dry and away from pests as much as possible). In his book, Ogam, the Poets’ Secret, Sean O’Boyle showed how the various Ogham from "The Scholar’s Primer" could have been used as tabulature for harp music among the Filidh. If this was so (and I definitely think it suits itself to the task of being a musical notation), then each poetical composition could have been remembered as a tune of sorts. Using music to aid memory is something that we do even today. When this potential for musical memory is coupled with the 150 different Ogham that the Filidh was required to learn in conjunction with the tales that they were also required to memorize, we see what I call the beginnings of "memory groves" of the mind. IMO these memory techniques are modeled after those of Cicero and Quintilian (pre-Christian Roman scholars and masters of rhetoric, as well as memory). They wrote early works on the use of memory lists and mnemonics as well as tying memories to places that were familiar too the subject. In addition to the use of structures and places, they also suggested the use of associated vivid images that impact the mind to reinforce the associated structured lists and mnemonics. Their skills and practices are documented in Frances Yates’ seminal work on the subject _The Art of Memory_. In the Renaissance, these techniques seem to have been rediscovered or reintroduced by first Giordanno Bruno (the priest who was eventually burned at the stake by the Inquisition) and later by Robert Fludd who is said to have used Shakespeare’s Globe Theater as a "memory theater." Some have said that the Ogham is not well suited for writing large volumes of information because it would be cumbersome to squeeze all the characters need onto a single stave of even within the "leaves" of a boo k. I tend to agree with this theory if we think that such works had to be spelled completely in all of the letters and sounds of each word. OTOH since the Ogham were lists of associated items linked through music and memory, I think that only the tunes and a few letters would have sufficed to "score" each stave to be sung and recited. A single letter could represent an entire phrase and a musical note (in the manner of briatharogam or phrase Ogam, examples of which we have from the Book of Ballymote). I’ve gone into these techniques and their details more fully in my book on _Ogham Divination, Recreating and Discovering the Ancient Wisdom of the Druids_. That’s the gist of the technique however. A Poet could have held a tabhal lorg in his hands and read the Ogham scores with the fingers (and without looking) while reciting a composition before an audience. Amergin’s "Mystery" could have been accomplished, recorded and scored musically with about fifteen Ogham on a single short stave of wood. The tale of "Baile and Ailinn" illustrates that such Ogham staves were used and stored in the treasure house of Tara during pre-Christian times. The reports of mass burnings of such staves by early Christians in bonfires seems to be echoed in the same sorts of burnings of tally sticks by Victorian bankers when those sticks finally ceased to be used in the 19th century IIRC. Up until then, accountants had recorded and preserved their accounts on such wooden ledgers and these were stored in much the same ways that Tabhal Lorg were thought to be stored. The use of wood and scores to preserve information has been happening in Europe for around 30,000 years in one form or another. Another use of wooden tablets for recording information is the wax covered wooden tablets that were used in Roman times and also in the Irish schools. Lessons and notes were inscribed in the wax with a stylus. When the notes were no longer required, the wax could be smoothed and the tablets reused (kind of an ancient Etch-a-Sketch). Still another use of wood to record information on wood was the runestaves or runestocks of the Norse. These were almanacs and calendars of the festivals, moons and other events of the seasonal year. That these runestocks survived among the Norse and the Anglo-Saxons can be attributed IMO to the lack of reported bonfires of such among them and their relatively late embrasure of Christianity. I envision a Poet standing like Charleton Heston before an audience with staff in hands and perhaps spelling the Ogham in a string of remembered chants that might have recreated the parting of the Red Sea for them.:-) Searles

Response:

That’s tomorrow. Thanks for the early warning. griann Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Re: What I know about the Celts and Druids (damn that was long): – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and the original book of kells is still being displayed at the Canberra national art gallery until may the 7th in Australia. — http://oakgrove.mainpage.net ICQ:16544782 at ICQ.com The professional class among the Celts were called things like Aes Da/na (Skilled Ones).  There were also Poets called Filidh. The Scandinavian people did not dominate the Celts though they certainly tried.  IIRC a certain group of Celts in Ireland defeated the Vikings and broke their power in Ireland forever at a battle called Clontarf.   Here’s a timeline:

— —- 8th Century ~774 Last use of the term “Cruthin” in C

Question:

Call me ( 918 ) 627-4923   Kelly,

Response:

Call me ( 918 ) 627-4923   Kelly,

Must be looking to join the mile high club. — – Please do not send me jokes, stories, chain letters, etc. – West Coast Swing:  http://members.truepath.com/swing/ – Main Home Page:  http://www.geocities.com/sriggins.geo/ – The Bovine Research Institute:  http://www.bovinae.bizland.com/

Response:

Call me ( 918 ) 627-4923   Kelly, Must be looking to join the mile high club.

More likely she’s been computing what she could do with all that money you’re wasting on an airplane. George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

kaSNORT! LMAO! Jim Fisher North Alabama – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More likely she’s been computing what she could do with all that money you’re wasting on an airplane. George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

More likely she’s been computing what she could do with all that money you’re wasting on an airplane.

money spent on an airplane is never wasted  :-)

Response:

Call me ( 918 ) 627-4923   Kelly, Must be looking to join the mile high club. More likely she’s been computing what she could do with all that money you’re wasting on an airplane.

Worse yet, Kelly could just as easily be a guy.

Response:

money spent on an airplane is never wasted  :-)

This is on the wall in my accountants(both he and his wife are pilots/owners) office: There is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing around with airplanes. — Dale L. Falk Cessna 182A N5912B http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The military pays nothing for the system at all, Okay, but what can be done about that?  Charge the military for the services they receive?  That cost would then just have to be made part of the defense budget. Who really cares? The real problem is that twits like "machogrande" (machito?) spread the lie that we in GA don’t pay our "fair share" of the costs of using a system that was built to military/airline specs. We really find this attitude over in the bicycle/public transit newsgroups.

Twit??? You must be a British conservative.  The worst kind.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The military pays nothing for the system at all, Okay, but what can be done about that?  Charge the military for the services they receive?  That cost would then just have to be made part of the defense budget. Who really cares? I think that’s what I said.  Charging the military would make no difference as they’re funded by taxes already. The real problem is that twits like "machogrande" (machito?) spread the lie that we in GA don’t pay our "fair share" of the costs of using a system that was built to military/airline specs. Agreed.  Very little of the system could be shut down if general aviation didn’t exist.

Well perhaps you are right. It would seem to me, however, that if GA is paying a disproportionate share of the cost of the system, that the General Aviation lobby would be all in favor of user fees.  After all, what better way to fix the disparity than to have everyone pay for the services they actually use, and then GA would not be "subsidizing" the rest of the system. Strangely enough, however, it is here that all my conservative aviation friends depart from their philosophy of everyone being responsible for his own actions and paying his own way. I wonder why. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

It would seem to me, however, that if GA is paying a disproportionate share of the cost of the system, that the General Aviation lobby would be all in favor of user fees.  After all, what better way to fix the disparity than to have everyone pay for the services they actually use, and then GA would not be "subsidizing" the rest of the system.

I think the protest against user fees is not necessarily that the principle is unfair, but it would end up being just an additional tax. Fuel taxes would not go down one cent to compensate. If they gave a reasonable fee structure, then abolished all avgas taxes, you’d have a point – but that’s not what they’d do in the schemes they’ve been trying to pass so far. Also, look at all the other countries with user fees – they all have much higher taxes on avgas than are present in the US. The combined taxes and user fees in some countries represent appaling value for money (look at the fees you get charged after landing somewhere in Germany, and that’s in addition to tax on fuel – with all the money they’d charge, they should have the best general aviation system in the world, but instead the service is in fact quite poor). The current system in the US (IMHO) offers good value for money despite being imperfect. Secondly, user fees cost money to collect – a whole new billing infrastructure would need to be implemented. Flying clubs and FBO’s would have to institute quite a bit of extra accounting (requiring extra staff and expense) to ensure the right fees are collected from the right renter since it’s going to end up being charged to the N-number of the plane (and if the FBO/clubs don’t do it, then the government has to set up this infrastructure – yet more expense). The current system, whilst not perfect, is at least simple, easy and cheap to collect. All it’d end up doing is putting up the cost of flying without funding the system any better – like in Europe, it would represent appaling value for money. — Dylan Smith, Houston TX. http://www.icct.net/~dyls "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Response:

The military pays nothing for the system at all not true. Who do you think is paying for the development of the ASR-11 and contributing to the development of STARS? Who do you think pays for, maintains, and staffs all those RAPCONs and military towers that provide services to civil aviation? —

We do, the taxpayers. Julio * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

It has been my observation that most pilots, whose recreation is heavily subsidized by the public at large, (no way are GA pilots paying their fair share of the system they use) make no secret of their disdain of others’ receiving government largesse.

In what way is recreational flying subsidized by the public at large?

Response:

::There was nothing personal implied in the response.  It was a general ::observation, using the collective pronoun "we", and I stand by the ::statement. Hiya Macho. Well, I suppose that since you happen to be part of the "we" you’re talking about, it is entirely within your rights to "generally observe" about "our" behaviour. By the way, when the votes that elected you "we’s" representative have been tallied, please let me know, will ya? ::It has been my observation that most pilots, whose recreation is ::heavily subsidized by the public at large, (no way are GA pilots ::paying their fair share of the system they use) make no secret of ::their disdain of others’ receiving government largesse. What??  That is incredulous…I don’t know about you but  I pay enough taxes to make a couple of Medical Doctors (!!)  in West Africa very happy for at least a year! There you go again witht the generalizations about all of us (seemingly mute) GA pilots.  You would do well to realize this aphorism by Voltaire: "Every generalization is dangerous. Even this one" ::It is because, I believe, the majority of pilots are conservatives, ::who in principle  think that government belongs to them alone to ::abuse.   Um, okay.  I don’t agree with  you of course, but I have never claimed to know about and hence speak for any and everyone so I’ll stop just short (with heels screeching) of spouting my "general observation"  ;) ::If the shoe fits, wear it.  If it doesn’t, ignore it. Cheers! — Frederic Woodbridge http://www.ifconfig.com

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Wow! A poster saying that GA does not carry its fair share. I can’t believe you really mean that. Have you no idea about the relationship between the fuel taxes and the cost of services, and the number of times your flight following request is denied because the controller is busy with IFR commercial traffic? GA gets the bumsrush too often, yet does pay its way. The majority of the system does not use the system for which it pays so dearly, yet 100% of the commercial and military system uses it. The military pays nothing for the system at all, and the fed piles the total cost into one budget section and allocates the cost to the private and commercial sector, and then whines that the private and commercial sector is not paying its way. Do you imagine for a moment that Air Force One with our hot buddy in the back is paying to use the system when it tootles around on his election junketeering – and don’t forget they always take the spare 747 along too in case the first one breaks down along the way, plus the press plane. Please think statements like the one you made through before making them, if you have the data at hand. The truth is that general aviation does pay it’s fair share when you consider the utilization of the atc system by the ga group as a whole. And GA pays the airports for services in the way of hangar rents and tiedown, local property taxes, license fees (depending on the state) as well as the fuel taxes which it pays whenever a ga plane takes a flight. Whenever I fly I am more than satisfied that I am paying my way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Indeed a wonderful country, where we all can extol the government for subsidizing our recreational flying, and then with a clear conscience and in the same breath  bitch when it tries to help some poor bastard feed  and clothe his family. Who says you can’t have it both ways??? Ah jeez, I probably shouldn’t have posted about the "greatness" of America because I knew this was ultimately going to deteriorate into a political debate, which I really didn’t want. My apologies. However..(can’t let this one pass without at least a passing rebuttal I don’t quite agree with your posit about the government’s subsidizing of recreational flying.  As a tax-paying citizen, the provision by the government of a safe flying environment (just like driving, mind you) falls entirely within what is to be expected.  No more, no less! As for your "bitching in the same breath" statement, I have no idea where that came from!  What about my statement made you put such words into my mouth (or typing fingers?) Reading between the lines, are ya? Mind you, I have no arguments against government helping out someone down on their luck but that you assume praising the design and (relatively free)implementation of general aviation in the US automagically categorizes one as a "welfare state hater" is kinda warped logic, don’t you think? Heck, were you on welfare and no one helped and now you’re bitter? Cheers — Frederic Woodbridge Before you buy. There was nothing personal implied in the response.  It was a general observation, using the collective pronoun "we", and I stand by the statement. It has been my observation that most pilots, whose recreation is heavily subsidized by the public at large, (no way are GA pilots paying their fair share of the system they use) make no secret of their disdain of others’ receiving government largesse. It is because, I believe, the majority of pilots are conservatives, who in principle  think that government belongs to them alone to abuse. If the shoe fits, wear it.  If it doesn’t, ignore it.

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The military pays nothing for the system at all,

Okay, but what can be done about that?  Charge the military for the services they receive?  That cost would then just have to be made part of the defense budget.

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The military pays nothing for the system at all,

  Oh geez, another brain surgeon.

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The military pays nothing for the system at all, Okay, but what can be done about that?  Charge the military for the services they receive?  That cost would then just have to be made part of the defense budget.

Who really cares? The real problem is that twits like "machogrande" (machito?) spread the lie that we in GA don’t pay our "fair share" of the costs of using a system that was built to military/airline specs. We really find this attitude over in the bicycle/public transit newsgroups.

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The military pays nothing for the system at all, Okay, but what can be done about that?  Charge the military for the services they receive?  That cost would then just have to be made part of the defense budget. Who really cares?

I think that’s what I said.  Charging the military would make no difference as they’re funded by taxes already. The real problem is that twits like "machogrande" (machito?) spread the lie that we in GA don’t pay our "fair share" of the costs of using a system that was built to military/airline specs.

Agreed.  Very little of the system could be shut down if general aviation didn’t exist.

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-snip- of very good information Sorry, but you are incorrect in the knee-jerk assessment that GA pilots are not paying their fair share.

Excellent post from someone who is in a position to actually know what he is talking about. Additionally, I would guess that if you added up the income taxes paid by the GA population, they are paying more than their ‘fair’ share anyway, so if some of that extra comes back in the form of subsidies, that is just messed up accounting, not something for nothing. BDWood

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was nothing personal implied in the response.  It was a general observation, using the collective pronoun "we", and I stand by the statement. It has been my observation that most pilots, whose recreation is heavily subsidized by the public at large, (no way are GA pilots paying their fair share of the system they use) make no secret of their disdain of others’ receiving government largesse. It is because, I believe, the majority of pilots are conservatives, who in principle  think that government belongs to them alone to abuse.   If the shoe fits, wear it.  If it doesn’t, ignore it.

The shoe DOESN’T FIT!  You have committed a page 1 error! What subsidies does GA get, when we fly VFR, through the air, which is there, free for everybody to use? Do YOU pay YOUR "fair share" when you ride a bicycle across a bridge built for cars/trucks? Most of the ATC system is set up for the requirements of the military and airlines, not GA. We pay direct fuel taxes, tire taxes, tiedown/hangar (parking) fees to support the airports. In some states, Californis in particular, aircraft owners pay  1% of "fair market value" personal property tax and even taxes on their tiedowns to the local general fund, NONE of which goes back to support avaition. IMHO, GA subsidizes everybody else! Go attack some other windmill!

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Altimeters don’t have any way to directly take temperature into account. My queston: Don’t you need DENSITY altitude to gauge performance? Yes…….and no.   You don’t really fly an altimeter.  If you want to calculate performances, then yes you need density altitude figures,  in the air you rarely have the time.  Unless you are flying an ILS to or below mins it really isn’t that important and when you are, you generally get the feild setting so you’re accurate enough and when you’re VFR you dont really need the accuracy anyway, I mean who looks at the altimeter when ththey’re on final? BTW  I heard your new book is out.  Maybe when this job is over I’ll be able to afford one.  Either that or another LLama.=:)

While I agree with your points… but, * you’ve got plenty of time to calculate density altitude on the ground – and that’s exactly what you need to do when operating at a grass field (read: shortish) at altitude.  ie for take-off.  The t/o P chart does this – and that’s the idea of it. Here in New Zealand we have a group rating system – but that pretty much rules out most airfields (it’s very conservative).  Most clubs make it manditory to work through a t/o P chart (as well as complete a load sheet and flight plan).  There are a number of fields over here that are around 500 metres long. PS: our flight plans have just become chargeable over here – I believe this will have serious ramifications for all aircraft movements over here.  Most private ownwers will simply not file one, not use the radio – and therefore no one will know they’re there.  I can’t say I blame the pilots. — Regards  Duncan

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Indeed a wonderful country, where we all can extol the government for subsidizing our recreational flying, and then with a clear conscience and in the same breath  bitch when it tries to help some poor bastard feed  and clothe his family. Who says you can’t have it both ways???

Ah jeez, I probably shouldn’t have posted about the "greatness" of America because I knew this was ultimately going to deteriorate into a political debate, which I really didn’t want. My apologies. However..(can’t let this one pass without at least a passing rebuttal I don’t quite agree with your posit about the government’s subsidizing of recreational flying.  As a tax-paying citizen, the provision by the government of a safe flying environment (just like driving, mind you) falls entirely within what is to be expected.  No more, no less! As for your "bitching in the same breath" statement, I have no idea where that came from!  What about my statement made you put such words into my mouth (or typing fingers?) Reading between the lines, are ya? Mind you, I have no arguments against government helping out someone down on their luck but that you assume praising the design and (relatively free)implementation of general aviation in the US automagically categorizes one as a "welfare state hater" is kinda warped logic, don’t you think? Heck, were you on welfare and no one helped and now you’re bitter? Cheers — Frederic Woodbridge Before you buy.

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS: our flight plans have just become chargeable over here – I believe this will have serious ramifications for all aircraft movements over here.  Most private ownwers will simply not file one, not use the radio – and therefore no one will know they’re there. I can’t say I blame the pilots. — Regards  Duncan I hate to sound like yet another jingoistic American but this is one more reason why I thank the stars everyday I takeoff into the wild blue "American" yonder! I can’t believe all the nonsense everyone else all over the world has to go through just to fly! — Frederic Woodbridge Before you buy. Indeed a wonderful country, where we all can extol the government for subsidizing our recreational flying, and then with a clear conscience and in the same breath  bitch when it tries to help some poor bastard feed  and clothe his family. Who says you can’t have it both ways???

I’d like to see it subsidised by the commercial operations side of things (this has nothing to to with Govn’t – but to do with the way they attempt cost recovery). It’s just not fair to make the lighties pay for what is in effect, there for the big boys.  eg. where I live, our main rwy is 3k’s long – why should I have to pay for that (I don’t need it). It’s just a small point – consider it generically please – effectively, the lighties are paying a much larger percentage than the commercial sector (divided by pax etc). How much do houses cost in the States — Regards  Duncan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Indeed a wonderful country, where we all can extol the government for subsidizing our recreational flying, and then with a clear conscience and in the same breath  bitch when it tries to help some poor bastard feed  and clothe his family. Who says you can’t have it both ways??? Ah jeez, I probably shouldn’t have posted about the "greatness" of America because I knew this was ultimately going to deteriorate into a political debate, which I really didn’t want. My apologies. However..(can’t let this one pass without at least a passing rebuttal I don’t quite agree with your posit about the government’s subsidizing of recreational flying.  As a tax-paying citizen, the provision by the government of a safe flying environment (just like driving, mind you) falls entirely within what is to be expected.  No more, no less! As for your "bitching in the same breath" statement, I have no idea where that came from!  What about my statement made you put such words into my mouth (or typing fingers?) Reading between the lines, are ya? Mind you, I have no arguments against government helping out someone down on their luck but that you assume praising the design and (relatively free)implementation of general aviation in the US automagically categorizes one as a "welfare state hater" is kinda warped logic, don’t you think? Heck, were you on welfare and no one helped and now you’re bitter? Cheers — Frederic Woodbridge Before you buy.

There was nothing personal implied in the response.  It was a general observation, using the collective pronoun "we", and I stand by the statement. It has been my observation that most pilots, whose recreation is heavily subsidized by the public at large, (no way are GA pilots paying their fair share of the system they use) make no secret of their disdain of others’ receiving government largesse. It is because, I believe, the majority of pilots are conservatives, who in principle  think that government belongs to them alone to abuse.   If the shoe fits, wear it.  If it doesn’t, ignore it.

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Indeed a wonderful country, where we all can extol the government for subsidizing our recreational flying, and then with a clear conscience and in the same breath bitch when it tries to help some poor bastard feed  and clothe his family. Who says you can’t have it both ways???

In what way does the government subsidize recreational flying?

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I think your note reflects *your* experience with the pilots with whom you associate.  It sure doesn’t reflect the feelings of the pilots with whom *I* have associated over the past 25 years. –ron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It has been my observation that most pilots, whose recreation is heavily subsidized by the public at large, (no way are GA pilots paying their fair share of the system they use) make no secret of their disdain of others’ receiving government largesse. It is because, I believe, the majority of pilots are conservatives, who in principle  think that government belongs to them alone to abuse. If the shoe fits, wear it.  If it doesn’t, ignore it.

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+ It has been my observation that most pilots, whose recreation is + heavily subsidized by the public at large, (no way are GA pilots + paying their fair share of the system they use) make no secret of + their disdain of others’ receiving government largesse. Having spent two years serving on the board of a local airport, I’m always perplexed by statements such as the above. The airport I fly out of, year after year, contributes far more to the local community through direct and indirect taxes on revenue than it costs the local community to own and operate the airport – including the limited FAA subsidies it receives. Direct taxes include aircraft and hangar property taxes, fuel excises, sales taxes, and airport fees. Indirect taxes and revenue are the result of payroll, business, and income taxes on both the businesses and employees of those businesses that support aviation. Even including the ongoing maintenance and improvements, year after year after year, our local airport has generated far more revenue for the local community than it has ever received in FAA subsidies. So I’m sorry to say, but I disagree entirely with the characterization and assertion that GA pilots are not "paying their fair share of the system". Sure we use WX-BRIEF. Occasionally we use the ATC system with either VFR flight following or while under an IFR flight plan. But you are forgetting that things like VFR flight following are entirely voluntary for the ATC staff. It’s done when the controller’s workload permits it. ATC staff are not hired, nor employed with a primary responsibility for things like VFR flight following. As for the weather reporting, again, the number of GA pilots that use the weather reporting system on a regular and extensive basis is fairly low, and pales in comparison to the major air carrier usage of those facilities. You are forgetting that the vast majority of GA flights are training or currency flights that are local and VFR in nature. Very little of that traffic is actually captured by and actively controlled by the ATC system. The vast majority of those flights originate at local airports, many of which enjoy the same GA revenue windfall that our community enjoys, and routinely do not even have so much as a flight plan filed. Sorry, but you are incorrect in the knee-jerk assessment that GA pilots are not paying their fair share.

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Altimeters don’t have any way to directly take temperature into account. My queston: Don’t you need DENSITY altitude to gauge performance?

Yes…….and no.   You don’t really fly an altimeter.  If you want to calculate performances, then yes you need density altitude figures,  in the air you rarely have the time.  Unless you are flying an ILS to or below mins it really isn’t that important and when you are, you generally get the feild setting so you’re accurate enough and when you’re VFR you dont really need the accuracy anyway, I mean who looks at the altimeter when ththey’re on final? BTW  I heard your new book is out.  Maybe when this job is over I’ll be able to afford one.  Either that or another LLama.=:)

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PS: our flight plans have just become chargeable over here – I believe this will have serious ramifications for all aircraft movements over here.  Most private ownwers will simply not file one, not use the radio – and therefore no one will know they’re there. I can’t say I blame the pilots. — Regards  Duncan

I hate to sound like yet another jingoistic American but this is one more reason why I thank the stars everyday I takeoff into the wild blue "American" yonder! I can’t believe all the nonsense everyone else all over the world has to go through just to fly! — Frederic Woodbridge Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS: our flight plans have just become chargeable over here – I believe this will have serious ramifications for all aircraft movements over here.  Most private ownwers will simply not file one, not use the radio – and therefore no one will know they’re there. I can’t say I blame the pilots. — Regards  Duncan I hate to sound like yet another jingoistic American but this is one more reason why I thank the stars everyday I takeoff into the wild blue "American" yonder! I can’t believe all the nonsense everyone else all over the world has to go through just to fly! — Frederic Woodbridge Before you buy.

Indeed a wonderful country, where we all can extol the government for subsidizing our recreational flying, and then with a clear conscience and in the same breath  bitch when it tries to help some poor bastard feed  and clothe his family. Who says you can’t have it both ways???

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Dear Joe, and All: Altimeters don’t have any way to directly take temperature into account. Let’s say you landed at actual 13000′ but your altimeter there reads r = 12000′. So the pressure up there is somewhat higher than was predicted by your altimeter setting (put in at say 1700′). As you said, it was hot down below (which lowered the pressure and therefore lowered the altimeter setting) but relatively cooler up high (the isobars contracted) so pressure was higher than expected up top. Setting the altimeter to 29.92" Hg, assuming it’s working properly, gives you pressure altitude without any correction. My queston: Don’t you need DENSITY altitude to gauge performance? John. — John T. Lowry, PhD Flight Physics; Box 20919; Billings MT 59104 Voice: 406-248-2606 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a helicopter pilot and am frequently making landings at high altitudes (12000 to 13000 ft). On days when the OAT is above the ISO Standard Temperture, my altimeter (which was set at a field elevation of 1700 ft) will read several hundred feet below the actual elevation of my landing site. Why is this?  I would think that at the higher temperatures, the opposite would happen.  Also – if I set the altimeter to 29.92" for computing the aircraft performance, is it actually showing me the true pressure altitude at these high elevation high OAT landings or is there a correction that I should be applying?

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Dear Joe, and All: Altimeters don’t have any way to directly take temperature into account. Let’s say you landed at actual 13000′ but your altimeter there reads r = 12000′. So the pressure up there is somewhat higher than was predicted by your altimeter setting (put in at say 1700′). As you said, it was hot down below (which lowered the pressure and therefore lowered the altimeter setting) but relatively cooler up high (the isobars contracted) so pressure was higher than expected up top. Setting the altimeter to 29.92" Hg, assuming it’s working properly, gives you pressure altitude without any correction. My queston: Don’t you need DENSITY altitude to gauge performance?

YES. — Regards  Duncan

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Question:

If this is a moderated NG, would the moderator please email me? Thanks in advance.

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try: biz.comp.accounting or contact: http://www.blocktax.com Thanks, Steve Bookkeeping 2000 Member:  American Institute of Professional Bookkeepers Member:  QuickBooks Professional Advisors Program 1191 Huntington Drive, Suite 9, Duarte, CA 91010 Tel:  (626) 935 – 3375 Fax:  (626) 301 – 9935 Quick Books 99 Information: http://pages.prodigy.net/bookkeeping/qbp992/index.html Quick Books Professional Advisor in Your Area: http://qbpaweb.intuit.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this is a moderated NG, would the moderator please email me? Thanks in advance.

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