Question:

they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary. And I guess you’re the guy to decide what’s necessary to a kid and what isn’t.

Okay, flip side. Let’s say that the "guidelines" of 20% ~ 30% (if I discuss this long enough you’ll see me quoting State "guidelines" of 7% just to get my expectations down! ) are actually accurate, and that in a family, any family, on average, parents spend 7% of their income on the needs of their children (see, I told you I’d get to 7%!).  What happens when the resident parent decides that that 5% shouldn’t get spent on karate lessons, but should instead get spent on a mink coat, dinners with the boyfriend, whatever. Now, please remember this is a theoretical post.  I am not saying that anybody in this group (or the other one that I did not add back into the headers) does that, but how come there is an outroar against the "dead beat dad" who doesn’t pay for the child’s karate lessons, yet there is no opposite outcry on the other side except for, ‘well, it is her money?’ Rambler (yes, yes, projection, working through issues)

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? My guess is, they were taught that by their parents. Some people just seem to have been raised to believe the world or society or the law owes them something.

    No doubt parents have something to do with any feeling of entitlement. If parents have the idea that the world owes them a living, put that principle into action, and are rewarded for doing so, the children will absorb the message.     However, we’re talking here specifically about spousal and child support.  As I’ve pointed out before, in the overwhelming majority of case these are flows of money from men to women.  Who would challenge the feeling of entitlement on the part of those receiving the money, or wanting to receive the money?  The natural source of any challenge would be those who are PAYING the money.  And there we get to the nub of the issue.  Is there any organized group that can put over the message that there is no justice in forcing men to pay this money to their ex-wives or ex-girlfriends?  Is there even any group that seeks to put over the message that these money flows provide incentives for family breakups, and therefore are extremely damaging to society?     To me, there is one really striking element about the current situation in the U.S. in regard to the money flows associated with fatherless families.  It’s the dirty little secret that, in this field — as elsewhere — if you subsidize some behavior, you get more of it.  On the one hand, politicians bewail social pathologies like crime rates, falling educational standards, and teen pregnancies.  One the other hand, however, the same politicians are doing all they can to force men to subsidize the very breeding ground for these social pathologies — fatherless families.     The reason for this weird situation is that men haven’t found their voice politically.  Men are still unable to make their views felt when the interests of the two sexes are in conflict. So women’s feeling of entitlement continues unchallenged.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sure don’t believe that it’s an entitlement. At the same time, I also don’t believe that it’s fair and equitable for a child to live one lifestyle while his/her parents are married and then be expected to live a much lower one because his parents couldn’t/ wouldn’t stay married. OK, back to the topic at hand.  I would agree that it is not fair to the child.  But, what is fair?  Is it fair to the adult for one lifestyle to go down drastically?  One person should not be placed above another, regardless of age. I question the practicality of the expectation.  If both parents make $60,000/yr and maintain one household, how is it possible for the same two people to make the same amount of money then maintain two households at the same level as before?  It’s just not realistic.  We shouldn’t deceive ourselves into thinking it is.  If the income split is something like 80/20, then the argument could be made for some kind of income distribution.  (if someone wants to argue "no money, ever", please start another thread).

Yes, even if the $120 is on an 80/20 split, every body is going to lose. True, the person that is making 20% of the money will see an increase over what it is that their standard of living would be if they continued to make 20% of the total, but they will see a drop in standard of living of where they came from. I guess an additional bitter pill is that the person meeting 80% of the income is also going to see a drop in their standard of living, and this becomes more bitter, I would think, if that person was not the one that wanted the whole thing to occur in the first place.  Yes indeed, we seperate the issues of marital divorce from parental divorce, and we hold the "best interests of the kids" to be paramount, but this forced imbalance can be hard to swallow (personal experience here). Side note: Looks like I might actually make some money shortly.  Looks like ultimately it could be a good chunk.  I still do not have a child maintenance order in place.  I had decided that I would start with paying an amount equal to about 25% of income, though running the state support calculators it looks like it should be more like 20%, but I had also thought about doing 30% (this is because my solicitor here originally set my expectation of being 40% of income – aargh).  Now, this will be approximately 2x’s what my ex makes currently, which flips me out.  There is part of me that thought "make sure you get an accounting of what exactly it was spent on."  Decided against that.  If she is going to blow it on herself (and, aargh, the ex-MIL) so be it. But I must tell you that that other thread where only one party is required to make the utmost that they can really stuck in my craw.  This is the most bass-ackwards way of thinking I have ever seen. </rant off   But, if they both make about the same amount of money, then lifestyle will go down.  It has to.  Simple economics.  Is it the child’s fault?  No.  But, that’s life.  No one steps in and guarantees the lifestyle of that child if the parents do stay married. What happens if the father in a family loses his job and the only job he can find is four months later and 60% of what he is used to making? Where are the advocates of children’s lifestyle in demanding that that child’s lifestyle be mainatin at what it was previously, no matter what?  They ain’t there. I am not in any way suggesting that a child (or spouse) be expected to live in squalor, but the idea that a particular lifestyle is somehow an entitlement, is just plain unfair and wrong.

Yes, if we were all rational and caring, I agree.  It seems that the system is driven to account for the "what if" cases.  I still disagree with the camp that says that child support should be only for minimal existence.  I think that it should be for level of income.  If a person is going to try and start there own business, then they are going to try and start their own business, either within or without a marriage.  Penalizing them for that and saying, no, you must be an ATM machine, is jsut plain wrong. Just my longwinded 2 cents worth. Rambler

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think there is a big difference between karate lessons and having a good place to live. If it’s a question between karate lessons and Michael Jordan Nike’s, or living in a decent home, with good food on the table… there’s no contest. I grew up in a decent home, in a decent neighborhood, with good food on the table, all without karate lessons, and my sneakers weren’t $100.00 ‘designer’ shoes… just a good pair of Keds. I think that too often, we fall into the trap of having to provide the latest and greatest ‘things,’ in or for our kids to live a good ‘lifestyle.’ Were made to feel like bad parents if we don’t get our kids ‘X-boxes’ or the new MP3 player, or the designer clothes. Kids don’t need those things. But, those things are often counted as ‘particular lifestyle’ that must be maintained. It’s an ‘unwritten rule’ that we as parents are supposed to provide better for our kids, then our parents provided for us….. I don’t know about the rest of you… but I’m not doing as well as my parents did… Not that I don’t get paid well… but it just seems like there are so many more things to pay for these days. A primary example: my parents never had to worry about health insurance. Typically, it was 100% paid…. with virtually no out-of-pocket expenses. For me, every year, my health insurance premiums go up, and I have more and more out of pocket expenses for doctor’s visits. I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood. There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun. These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents. My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them….

You are much more eloquent than I have been on this particular subject. I agree with Indyguy1’s point that times have changed and you can’t turn the clock back completely, but I also agree with your points.  At some point, parents need to start being parents again and drawing a line between catering unnecessarily to their kid’s whims and teaching them values in the way they provide for them. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

to change that protocol to THEIR liking.  Sounds pretty self-centered and presumptuous to me.

I bow to your expertise on self-centeredness and presumption. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

The legal system encourages it, also.  To take it to a seemingly absurd degree, can you see a kid sueing the government when they’re 22 because their lifestyle sucks and they were told through their parent’s divorce that they’re "entitled" to the lifestyle they had grown accustomed to?

Never happen.  The government doesn’t let anybody sue them.  Instead, they’ll encourage suits against divorced dads for the "emotional pain" that’s supposed to be THEIR fault.

Response:

I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. Problem with that is most other kids are at their ballet lesson, soccer practice, etc. and trying to get enough kids together for a game of baseball would be difficult at best, around these parts.

Getting OT a bit: Do kids really benefit from the increased competitiveness that has taken over soccer, baseball, dance, etc.?  I played little league, but at the end of the season we had one playoff game after the season was over.  Today, when the season’s over, they travel all over the place and keep playing until they lose twice.  The level of stress put on these kids is incredible.  I like that competition would increase as one gets older.  A 16 yr old should be playing more seriously than an 8 yr old.  But, the primary purpose of the 8 yr old should be honing skills and having fun.  When the season’s over, it should be done.  I sometimes wonder if all these competitions and tournements aren’t really for the parents more than the kids. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? My guess is, they were taught that by their parents. Some people just seem to have been raised to believe the world or society or the law owes them something.

The legal system encourages it, also.  To take it to a seemingly absurd degree, can you see a kid sueing the government when they’re 22 because their lifestyle sucks and they were told through their parent’s divorce that they’re "entitled" to the lifestyle they had grown accustomed to? I know it sounds ridiculous, but with today’s legal system, and the rationalizing that some people do, I wouldn’t be surprised if something like that did happen. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement?

My guess is, they were taught that by their parents. Some people just seem to have been raised to believe the world or society or the law owes them something.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t realize, though, that karate lessons were a requirement for a happy childhood or a necessary lifestyle aspect critical to positive development. Well, Dave I don’t know the ins and outs of your area but in my area and other areas I am familar with, kids not being involved in activities, sports, etc.  have a major strike going against them. If they want to make a school  team they had better have experience or they will watching from the stands. If they don’t have a group they hang with, usually with a common interest ie: karate, they often end up with the less desirable crowd.   Don’t get me wrong, they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary. Neither are birthday presents, a bike, and just about everything above food, shelter, an education and medical care. Although most parents want their kids to have more than what is absolutely necessary.

I agree 100% with everything you say.  My kids have almost always been involved with sports, for example, for precisely the reasons you cite. That’s not what I’m saying, though.  Of course we want the best for our kids.  Of course we want to give them a happy childhood and a chance for success, and so on.  I understand the desire and I most certainly understand the benefits to all of that.  But, if money’s tight, and it costs $140 to play baseball, and it’s either that or the rent, you have to make hard choices.  And, when a family splits, and the same money that once kept one household afloat is now keeping two households afloat (rent x2 takes a big chuck out of available money), sometimes something has to give. As I was writing this response, a thought occured to me: Did we debate this before and agree to disagree? — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

And I guess you’re the guy to decide what’s necessary to a kid and what isn’t.

Where would you put karate lessons on the priority list? BTW, I also am not going to further participate in this thread because, even though I removed the other newsgroup from my headers when I replied, you put it back in.  I’ll choose what groups I participate in.

LOL!!!  When I first saw your name as a responder I saw this one coming. You knew I’d put it back in just because I knew you were testing me. Or, something to that effect.  We know each other too well.  Hey, maybe we should get married! I guess I don’t get to choose what groups I participate in, eh?  I should bow down to what somebody else wants, just because they want it that way.  I find it interesting that people will join in an already established thread, with an already established protocol, then expect to change that protocol to THEIR liking.  Sounds pretty self-centered and presumptuous to me. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip to I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. Problem with that is most other kids *are* at their ballet lesson, soccer practice, etc. and trying to get enough kids together for a game of baseball would be difficult at best, around these parts.  I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood. LOL, we used to build forts in the empty lots in our nieghborhood. We’d take off in the AM show up for lunch and then be gone til dinner time. Too bad kids can’t do that any more.

It’s more than "too bad".     It’s PATHETIC.  There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun.

NO!    Say it isn’t so!!!     (This will fall on deaf ears, Indyguy). I was a child in the 50’s and 60’s as much as I wish we could turn back the clock we can’t.

PLEEEEZ?    Pretty pleeez?    I’ll even get down on my hands and knees and beg…  These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents. Oh I don’t think telling a child to go find something to do is equated to being a *bad parent*. We have a different world today. Just like kids didn’t have much more than a cardboard box and an imagination to have fun, they also only needed a HS diploma to be successful in a career. Like I said before, we live in a different world today.

Yeah – it’s more fucked up, and that’s a fact.    And with a BUNCH of spoiled brats in it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them…. That isn’t what I taught my children. I showed them what it is like to have a *nice* life. I gave them the tools they needed to be able to continue that life. I never taught them to depend on anyone other than themselves to get what they want in life. They know if they don’t get what they want they only have one person to blame and that is themselves. Mrs Indyguy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.   Preferable to whom? Not to me. And I would appreciate it if, I have posted to only one group, that you not add groups into your reply to me. If I wanted to post to alt.child-support, I would. That’s no different from saying "I would appreciate it if, I have posted to TWO groups, that you not delete one of them in your reply to me."  After all, if I had not wanted to post to the other group, I wouldn’t have done so. This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow. No, it wouldn’t. You follow the thread in the group it is in. IME, most crossposted stuff only ends up in flames. There’s a reason, you know, why I don’t read and post in alt.child-support. No, I don’t know. Do you want to discuss the topic, or not?

No. Not with you. Tracey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement?

You mean, who decided that kids should still be able to go to their karate lessons and wear decent shoes and go to the dentist?  I dunno….I’ll have to think about that and get back to you. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

You mean, who decided that kids should still be able to go to their karate lessons and wear decent shoes and go to the dentist?  I dunno….I’ll have to think about that and get back to you.

Decent shoes and dental appointments are one thing, and can easily be done if the two parents work together.  And, usually even when the two parents don’t work together.  I didn’t realize, though, that karate lessons were a requirement for a happy childhood or a necessary lifestyle aspect critical to positive development.  Don’t get me wrong, they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Do you want to discuss the topic, or not? No. Not with you.

Darn.  Ok. Side note:  If you hadn’t made it such an obvious point, I probably wouldn’t have even noticed.  The point about crossposting not automatically being evil still stands, though. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? You mean, who decided that kids should still be able to go to their karate lessons and wear decent shoes and go to the dentist?  I dunno….I’ll have to think about that and get back to you. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

I think there is a big difference between karate lessons and having a good place to live. If it’s a question between karate lessons and Michael Jordan Nike’s, or living in a decent home, with good food on the table… there’s no contest. I grew up in a decent home, in a decent neighborhood, with good food on the table, all without karate lessons, and my sneakers weren’t $100.00 ‘designer’ shoes… just a good pair of Keds. I think that too often, we fall into the trap of having to provide the latest and greatest ‘things,’ in or for our kids to live a good ‘lifestyle.’ Were made to feel like bad parents if we don’t get our kids ‘X-boxes’ or the new MP3 player, or the designer clothes. Kids don’t need those things. But, those things are often counted as ‘particular lifestyle’ that must be maintained. It’s an ‘unwritten rule’ that we as parents are supposed to provide better for our kids, then our parents provided for us….. I don’t know about the rest of you… but I’m not doing as well as my parents did… Not that I don’t get paid well… but it just seems like there are so many more things to pay for these days. A primary example: my parents never had to worry about health insurance. Typically, it was 100% paid…. with virtually no out-of-pocket expenses. For me, every year, my health insurance premiums go up, and I have more and more out of pocket expenses for doctor’s visits. I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood. There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun. These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents. My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them….

Response:

they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary.

And I guess you’re the guy to decide what’s necessary to a kid and what isn’t. BTW, I also am not going to further participate in this thread because, even though I removed the other newsgroup from my headers when I replied, you put it back in.  I’ll choose what groups I participate in. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

I didn’t realize, though, that karate lessons were a requirement for a happy childhood or a necessary lifestyle aspect critical to positive development.

Well, Dave I don’t know the ins and outs of your area but in my area and other areas I am familar with, kids *not* being involved in activities, sports, etc. have a major strike going against them. If they want to make a school  team they had better have experience or they will watching from the stands. If they don’t have a group they hang with, usually with a common interest ie: karate, they often end up with the less desirable crowd.   Don’t get me wrong, they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary.

Neither are birthday presents, a bike, and just about everything above food, shelter, an education and medical care. Although most parents want their kids to have more than what is absolutely necessary. Mrs Indyguy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

<snip to I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football.

Problem with that is most other kids *are* at their ballet lesson, soccer practice, etc. and trying to get enough kids together for a game of baseball would be difficult at best, around these parts.  I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood.

LOL, we used to build forts in the empty lots in our nieghborhood. We’d take off in the AM show up for lunch and then be gone til dinner time. Too bad kids can’t do that any more.  There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun.

I was a child in the 50’s and 60’s as much as I wish we could turn back the clock we can’t.  These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents.

Oh I don’t think telling a child to go find something to do is equated to being a *bad parent*. We have a different world today. Just like kids didn’t have much more than a cardboard box and an imagination to have fun, they also only needed a HS diploma to be successful in a career. Like I said before, we live in a different world today. My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them….

That isn’t what I taught my children. I showed them what it is like to have a *nice* life. I gave them the tools they needed to be able to continue that life. I never taught them to depend on anyone other than themselves to get what they want in life. They know if they don’t get what they want they only have one person to blame and that is themselves. Mrs Indyguy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.  

Preferable to whom? Not to me. And I would appreciate it if, I have posted to only one group, that you not add groups into your reply to me. If I wanted to post to alt.child-support, I would. This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow.

No, it wouldn’t. You follow the thread in the group it is in. IME, most crossposted stuff only ends up in flames. There’s a reason, you know, why I don’t read and post in alt.child-support. Tracey

Response:

I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.   Preferable to whom? Not to me. And I would appreciate it if, I have posted to only one group, that you not add groups into your reply to me. If I wanted to post to alt.child-support, I would.

That’s no different from saying "I would appreciate it if, I have posted to TWO groups, that you not delete one of them in your reply to me."  After all, if I had not wanted to post to the other group, I wouldn’t have done so. This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow. No, it wouldn’t. You follow the thread in the group it is in. IME, most crossposted stuff only ends up in flames. There’s a reason, you know, why I don’t read and post in alt.child-support.

No, I don’t know. Do you want to discuss the topic, or not? — Jealousy is simply and clearly the fear that you do not have value. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove the point – that others will be preferred and rewarded more than you. ~ Jennifer James

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? (First, Dave, a personal request and I’m not trying to be newsgroup police here, but crossposting really sucks, IMO.)

I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.  This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow. http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/crospost.html I sure don’t believe that it’s an entitlement. At the same time, I also don’t believe that it’s fair and equitable for a child to live one lifestyle while his/her parents are married and then be expected to live a much lower one because his parents couldn’t/ wouldn’t stay married.

OK, back to the topic at hand.  I would agree that it is not fair to the child.  But, what is fair?  Is it fair to the adult for one lifestyle to go down drastically?  One person should not be placed above another, regardless of age. I question the practicality of the expectation.  If both parents make $60,000/yr and maintain one household, how is it possible for the same two people to make the same amount of money then maintain two households at the same level as before?  It’s just not realistic.  We shouldn’t deceive ourselves into thinking it is.  If the income split is something like 80/20, then the argument could be made for some kind of income distribution.  (if someone wants to argue "no money, ever", please start another thread).  But, if they both make about the same amount of money, then lifestyle will go down.  It has to.  Simple economics.  Is it the child’s fault?  No.  But, that’s life.  No one steps in and guarantees the lifestyle of that child if the parents do stay married. What happens if the father in a family loses his job and the only job he can find is four months later and 60% of what he is used to making? Where are the advocates of children’s lifestyle in demanding that that child’s lifestyle be mainatin at what it was previously, no matter what?  They ain’t there. I am not in any way suggesting that a child (or spouse) be expected to live in squalor, but the idea that a particular lifestyle is somehow an entitlement, is just plain unfair and wrong. — Jealousy is simply and clearly the fear that you do not have value. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove the point – that others will be preferred and rewarded more than you. ~ Jennifer James

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement?

(First, Dave, a personal request and I’m not trying to be newsgroup police here, but crossposting really sucks, IMO.) I sure don’t believe that it’s an entitlement. At the same time, I also don’t believe that it’s fair and equitable for a child to live one lifestyle while his/her parents are married and then be expected to live a *much* lower one because his parents couldn’t/ wouldn’t stay married. Tracey

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Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? — Jealousy is simply and clearly the fear that you do not have value. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove the point – that others will be preferred and rewarded more than you. ~ Jennifer James

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Question:

I think it depends on the student, and instructor.

Yes.  And it depends as much or more on WHERE you do your initial training. Virtually nobody would ever get their certificate in anything close to 40 hours at my home airport, unless they come to the table with some kind of prior experience (maybe they’ve been flying with Dad since they were a toddler). There are logistical reasons why it takes longer than 40 hours to cover the required material, and the reality is that you have to know more and demonstrate higher proficiency to fly here than what is required by the 40-hour syllabus. To say 40 hours is too little for a safe novice doesn’t add up,

Actually it does, because there is NO extra time in the 40-hour syllabus to teach anything practical about operations that are not "normal" in the specific environment where you are doing your training.  As soon as you leave the nest you start learning that the Private PTS doesn’t cover everything that you need to know.  Hopefully you don’t learn it a really hard way.  The things that come to mind are high density altitude and raging crosswinds, assuming those aren’t characteristics of your local strip. My CFI and I discussed at the outset what were my goals after I had my certificate.  I took my checkride not after I had checked off all the PTS items, but when I was proficient to do all the things I said I was going to go do as soon as she turned me loose.  When I got my certificate, I bought an airplane, and I went off and did what I said I was going to do.  I would have been legal but I would not have been safe doing that at 40 hours. I’ve got several hundred hours now, and I’m still learning just how much I don’t know about weather flying (VFR or IFR) and how much I need to learn about interpreting radar etc.  We don’t have thunderstorms here.  I never even anticipated that I needed to know this to be safe, and that was a mistake, it turns out.  So I’m in remedial weather now, trying to figure out what every midwesterner pilot probably learns before they solo. because we all solo LONG before 40 hours. I did at 12, and at least as far as what I’ve seen, that is about normal.

You haven’t seen enough.  We don’t all solo around 12, or even by 40. Looking at it from my perspective, it’s your experience that is atypical. For you to say that people whose experiences are different from yours are not "normal" is frankly somewhat insulting.  It’s a profound mistake to think that your experience with your instructor at your location in any way translates to the complexities of learning to fly somewhere else. That’s OK, we can still be friends.  :-)

Response:

Corrie, While I enjoyed your similes, I think you’re a little harsh on Eric. Anyone can acquire math skills as an engineering tool with practice and perseverance.  I used two my allowable three drops in undergrad on Calculus III and Diff-eqns, and got A’s on the retakes.  I wouldn’t consider myself prodigious at math.  I only use it as a tool.  Just do lots of problems, ask questions, get a tutor to get you through the math classes.  I found that the upper-level aero engr. courses I took used only "relatively" basic math.  And if you happened to run across a fourth-order partial differential equation, the solution is often given.  At that stage, you try to grasp the big picture, not the niceties of the Laplace transform. Perhaps a bit of encouragement is in order?  It’s my belief that an engineering background coupled with aviation definitely enhances the depth of understanding, besides carrying slightly more weight during an airline interview. My $0.02. Alex – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – uhh, yes and no, Mike.  My wife (41) is in nursing school.  She’s median age in her class.  Lots of folks go back to school in their 30’s or later. Eric, if math is eating your lunch, do yourself a favor and escape engineering.  If doing engineering math is like writing books, then differential equations is writing a five-paragraph theme.  Calculus is like writing sentences and short paragraphs.  Algebra and trig are spelling and grammar.  Arithmetic, fractions, ratios, etc. is the alphabet.   If you’re not fluent in math, it ain’t gonna work out. Find another line of work.  A business degree is highly portable. Corrie Its good that you are considering the possibility that an aviation career might not work out.  If engineering in not for you fine, but try to get something useful.  Even a libral arts degree is probably better than "aviation sciences".  At least you won’t bore people at dinner!  Certainly medicine would be better yet!  I’m sure that you know this already but consider that this is probably the only time in your life that you will have the opportunity to get educational training except for on-the-job training. When you are in your 30s with a wife and perhaps children, it is too late to go off to college and learn a new profession.  It is important to maximize your opportunities and not to limit them. Mike MU-2 Good to hear info from all sides.  I’ve thought about this too.  I used to be an IT major (goodthing I got out of that), but at this point I need a degree in something and engineering I most likely wont be able to go through.  I’ve tried once before (first time at a 4 year mind you) and I’m back at the community college level and courses like dynamics, calculus 3 and calculus based physics are taking a toll not only on my santity but also my GPA.  The honest truth is I’ve never been that good at math to begin with and all that is compounding. I think what I’m going to do for the time being is at least apply to the other college that way I have somewhere to go.  And, take flying lessons cause after all having a pilots license I want to do no matter what.  Then hopefully I can make a better decision.  But you are right it would be good if I had something else to fall back on, but right now I have zero. Eric, If I were you (and I’m not and never will be so take this FWIW), I would  get a degree in a subject area that is more potentially useful than  "aviation sciences" whatever that is.  You  have NO IDEA of whether or not you  will like being a commercial pilot.  You have NO IDEA as to whether or not  you will be able to qualify for and keep a class one medical certificate.  You have NO IDEA what the job market for pilots will be over the next 30  years. Airlines have struggled financially forever and a major part of the  their problem is high labor costs, so you have NO IDEA what pilots will be  paid in the future.  It would make sense for you to have a plan B that doesn’t involve aviation.  If you persue an "aviation sciences" degree, your  plan B might be flipping burgers.  If you persue engineering there will always  be jobs that pay a livable wage and many that will allow you to buy your  own plane.  I think that you are going to really limit yourself if you go  the "aviation sciences" route. Mike MU-2

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I suppose that you are right in a two income household!  It would be tough with one income and kids for the wage earner to go back to school. Mike MU-2

uhh, yes and no, Mike.  My wife (41) is in nursing school.  She’s median age in her class.  Lots of folks go back to school in their 30’s or later. Eric, if math is eating your lunch, do yourself a favor and escape engineering.  If doing engineering math is like writing books, then differential equations is writing a five-paragraph theme.  Calculus is like writing sentences and short paragraphs.  Algebra and trig are spelling and grammar.  Arithmetic, fractions, ratios, etc. is the alphabet.   If you’re not fluent in math, it ain’t gonna work out. Find another line of work.  A business degree is highly portable. Corrie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its good that you are considering the possibility that an aviation career might not work out.  If engineering in not for you fine, but try to get something useful.  Even a libral arts degree is probably better than "aviation sciences".  At least you won’t bore people at dinner! Certainly medicine would be better yet!  I’m sure that you know this already but consider that this is probably the only time in your life that you will have the opportunity to get educational training except for on-the-job training. When you are in your 30s with a wife and perhaps children, it is too late to go off to college and learn a new profession.  It is important to maximize your opportunities and not to limit them. Mike MU-2 Good to hear info from all sides.  I’ve thought about this too.  I used to be an IT major (goodthing I got out of that), but at this point I need a degree in something and engineering I most likely wont be able to go through.  I’ve tried once before (first time at a 4 year mind you) and I’m back at the community college level and courses like dynamics, calculus 3 and calculus based physics are taking a toll not only on my santity but also my GPA.  The honest truth is I’ve never been that good at math to begin with and all that is compounding. I think what I’m going to do for the time being is at least apply to the other college that way I have somewhere to go.  And, take flying lessons cause after all having a pilots license I want to do no matter what.  Then hopefully I can make a better decision.  But you are right it would be good if I had something else to fall back on, but right now I have zero. Eric, If I were you (and I’m not and never will be so take this FWIW), I would  get a degree in a subject area that is more potentially useful than  "aviation sciences" whatever that is.  You  have NO IDEA of whether or not you  will like being a commercial pilot.  You have NO IDEA as to whether or not  you will be able to qualify for and keep a class one medical certificate.  You have NO IDEA what the job market for pilots will be over the next 30  years. Airlines have struggled financially forever and a major part of the  their problem is high labor costs, so you have NO IDEA what pilots will be  paid in the future.  It would make sense for you to have a plan B that doesn’t involve aviation.  If you persue an "aviation sciences" degree, your  plan B might be flipping burgers.  If you persue engineering there will always  be jobs that pay a livable wage and many that will allow you to buy your  own plane.  I think that you are going to really limit yourself if you go  the "aviation sciences" route. Mike MU-2

Response:

uhh, yes and no, Mike.  My wife (41) is in nursing school.  She’s median age in her class.  Lots of folks go back to school in their 30’s or later. Eric, if math is eating your lunch, do yourself a favor and escape engineering.  If doing engineering math is like writing books, then differential equations is writing a five-paragraph theme.  Calculus is like writing sentences and short paragraphs.  Algebra and trig are spelling and grammar.  Arithmetic, fractions, ratios, etc. is the alphabet.   If you’re not fluent in math, it ain’t gonna work out. Find another line of work.  A business degree is highly portable. Corrie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its good that you are considering the possibility that an aviation career might not work out.  If engineering in not for you fine, but try to get something useful.  Even a libral arts degree is probably better than "aviation sciences".  At least you won’t bore people at dinner!  Certainly medicine would be better yet!  I’m sure that you know this already but consider that this is probably the only time in your life that you will have the opportunity to get educational training except for on-the-job training. When you are in your 30s with a wife and perhaps children, it is too late to go off to college and learn a new profession.  It is important to maximize your opportunities and not to limit them. Mike MU-2 Good to hear info from all sides.  I’ve thought about this too.  I used to be an IT major (goodthing I got out of that), but at this point I need a degree in something and engineering I most likely wont be able to go through.  I’ve tried once before (first time at a 4 year mind you) and I’m back at the community college level and courses like dynamics, calculus 3 and calculus based physics are taking a toll not only on my santity but also my GPA.  The honest truth is I’ve never been that good at math to begin with and all that is compounding. I think what I’m going to do for the time being is at least apply to the other college that way I have somewhere to go.  And, take flying lessons cause after all having a pilots license I want to do no matter what.  Then hopefully I can make a better decision.  But you are right it would be good if I had something else to fall back on, but right now I have zero. Eric, If I were you (and I’m not and never will be so take this FWIW), I would  get a degree in a subject area that is more potentially useful than  "aviation sciences" whatever that is.  You  have NO IDEA of whether or not you  will like being a commercial pilot.  You have NO IDEA as to whether or not  you will be able to qualify for and keep a class one medical certificate.  You have NO IDEA what the job market for pilots will be over the next 30  years. Airlines have struggled financially forever and a major part of the  their problem is high labor costs, so you have NO IDEA what pilots will be  paid in the future.  It would make sense for you to have a plan B that doesn’t involve aviation.  If you persue an "aviation sciences" degree, your  plan B might be flipping burgers.  If you persue engineering there will always  be jobs that pay a livable wage and many that will allow you to buy your  own plane.  I think that you are going to really limit yourself if you go  the "aviation sciences" route. Mike MU-2

Response:

Its good that you are considering the possibility that an aviation career might not work out.  If engineering in not for you fine, but try to get something useful.  Even a libral arts degree is probably better than "aviation sciences".  At least you won’t bore people at dinner!  Certainly medicine would be better yet!  I’m sure that you know this already but consider that this is probably the only time in your life that you will have the opportunity to get educational training except for on-the-job training. When you are in your 30s with a wife and perhaps children, it is too late to go off to college and learn a new profession.  It is important to maximize your opportunities and not to limit them. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good to hear info from all sides.  I’ve thought about this too.  I used to be an IT major (goodthing I got out of that), but at this point I need a degree in something and engineering I most likely wont be able to go through.  I’ve tried once before (first time at a 4 year mind you) and I’m back at the community college level and courses like dynamics, calculus 3 and calculus based physics are taking a toll not only on my santity but also my GPA.  The honest truth is I’ve never been that good at math to begin with and all that is compounding. I think what I’m going to do for the time being is at least apply to the other college that way I have somewhere to go.  And, take flying lessons cause after all having a pilots license I want to do no matter what.  Then hopefully I can make a better decision.  But you are right it would be good if I had something else to fall back on, but right now I have zero.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric, If I were you (and I’m not and never will be so take this FWIW), I would get a degree in a subject area that is more potentially useful than "aviation sciences" whatever that is.  You  have NO IDEA of whether or not you will like being a commercial pilot.  You have NO IDEA as to whether or not you will be able to qualify for and keep a class one medical certificate. You have NO IDEA what the job market for pilots will be over the next 30 years. Airlines have struggled financially forever and a major part of the their problem is high labor costs, so you have NO IDEA what pilots will be paid in the future.  It would make sense for you to have a plan B that doesn’t involve aviation.  If you persue an "aviation sciences" degree, your plan B might be flipping burgers.  If you persue engineering there will always be jobs that pay a livable wage and many that will allow you to buy your own plane.  I think that you are going to really limit yourself if you go the "aviation sciences" route. Mike MU-2

Response:

Good to hear info from all sides.  I’ve thought about this too.  I used to be an IT major (goodthing I got out of that), but at this point I need a degree in something and engineering I most likely wont be able to go through.  I’ve tried once before (first time at a 4 year mind you) and I’m back at the community college level and courses like dynamics, calculus 3 and calculus based physics are taking a toll not only on my santity but also my GPA.  The honest truth is I’ve never been that good at math to begin with and all that is compounding. I think what I’m going to do for the time being is at least apply to the other college that way I have somewhere to go.  And, take flying lessons cause after all having a pilots license I want to do no matter what.  Then hopefully I can make a better decision.  But you are right it would be good if I had something else to fall back on, but right now I have zero. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric, If I were you (and I’m not and never will be so take this FWIW), I would get a degree in a subject area that is more potentially useful than "aviation sciences" whatever that is.  You  have NO IDEA of whether or not you will like being a commercial pilot.  You have NO IDEA as to whether or not you will be able to qualify for and keep a class one medical certificate.  You have NO IDEA what the job market for pilots will be over the next 30 years. Airlines have struggled financially forever and a major part of the their problem is high labor costs, so you have NO IDEA what pilots will be paid in the future.  It would make sense for you to have a plan B that doesn’t involve aviation.  If you persue an "aviation sciences" degree, your plan B might be flipping burgers.  If you persue engineering there will always be jobs that pay a livable wage and many that will allow you to buy your own plane.  I think that you are going to really limit yourself if you go the "aviation sciences" route. Mike MU-2

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I appreciate everybodys input to this.  I have come up with a new plan actually.  I found that Univ. of MD Eastern Shore offers a BS in aviation sciences with a concentration in commercial piloting.  Good part is my associates in business would transfer the gen. ed requirements.  Also that major has some business courses too (accounting + economics) and I have already taken those.  Since I’m an engineering major now, the calculus and physics and computer programming classes should also transfer.  I hope to do that in the spring.  In the meantime I would drop dynamics and calculus 3 and take ground school and flight time for the PPL at the local airpark and that should also transfer.  Hopefully I would have that done by next year.  So in the grand scope of things I’ll have my commerical license in 2.5 or 3 years, which would make me 25.  And by then the job market will be better then it is now. Oh yeah I have received parental support so it looks like its a "go". I’m at the point now that I just need a BS degree in anything.  I hope I’ll be able to pass flight school.  Worst comes to worse at least I would have a BS degree in SOMETHING (I hope) and I would be certified to have an ultra cool hobby.  After all, even if in the end flying isnt for me, how many people have degrees in one thing but wind up doing something totally different?

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Eric, If I were you (and I’m not and never will be so take this FWIW), I would get a degree in a subject area that is more potentially useful than "aviation sciences" whatever that is.  You  have NO IDEA of whether or not you will like being a commercial pilot.  You have NO IDEA as to whether or not you will be able to qualify for and keep a class one medical certificate.  You have NO IDEA what the job market for pilots will be over the next 30 years. Airlines have struggled financially forever and a major part of the their problem is high labor costs, so you have NO IDEA what pilots will be paid in the future.  It would make sense for you to have a plan B that doesn’t involve aviation.  If you persue an "aviation sciences" degree, your plan B might be flipping burgers.  If you persue engineering there will always be jobs that pay a livable wage and many that will allow you to buy your own plane.  I think that you are going to really limit yourself if you go the "aviation sciences" route. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I appreciate everybodys input to this.  I have come up with a new plan actually.  I found that Univ. of MD Eastern Shore offers a BS in aviation sciences with a concentration in commercial piloting.  Good part is my associates in business would transfer the gen. ed requirements.  Also that major has some business courses too (accounting + economics) and I have already taken those.  Since I’m an engineering major now, the calculus and physics and computer programming classes should also transfer.  I hope to do that in the spring.  In the meantime I would drop dynamics and calculus 3 and take ground school and flight time for the PPL at the local airpark and that should also transfer.  Hopefully I would have that done by next year.  So in the grand scope of things I’ll have my commerical license in 2.5 or 3 years, which would make me 25.  And by then the job market will be better then it is now. Oh yeah I have received parental support so it looks like its a "go". I’m at the point now that I just need a BS degree in anything.  I hope I’ll be able to pass flight school.  Worst comes to worse at least I would have a BS degree in SOMETHING (I hope) and I would be certified to have an ultra cool hobby.  After all, even if in the end flying isnt for me, how many people have degrees in one thing but wind up doing something totally different?

Response:

That’s OK, we can still be friends.  :-)

That we can

Response:

Eric,   If you are considering become a professional pilot, you definitely want to stay in school and get your degree.  Engineering is a good choice.  There are other degrees that would nicely augment a flying career, but why switch and take longer to graduate.  A lot of schools also offer flight training programs or give you credit for flight training received elsewhere.  If you were to go military, you would need a college degree to get accepted into an officer program which is the only way you will be able to fly (as a pilot). The one exception I can think of is the Army.  You can get accepted into their flight programs as a Warrant Officer (Helo’s and some C-12’s I think), but you still need to have some college (I think around 60 hours).  What you will save in monetary expense by going military you will pay for with a lengthy committment (7 to 9 years – from when you earn your wings (like 9 – 12 years total time in service).   Another route is to ‘pay as you go’ and get your ratings over time as money permits, usually while holding down another job.  Once you get your CFI you can start to instruct to accrue hours.  This can take awhile depending on your cash flow.   Another way is to take out a loan and go to one of the flight schools or academies that will train you until you earn your CFI and CFII and then work for them as an instructor until you accrue the necessary hours.  The last two scenarios are more cookie-cutter career paths, but there are many more variations of the above two that are lest costly.   I went the military route, so my explanation of the non-military methods is understandably a little general and ‘vague’.  My observation has been that, typically you can accrue hours faster as a civilian commercial rated pilot or CFI/II.  As an example most military pilots I know have around 2500 hours or less for about 10 years of service.  20 years equates to around 4-5000 hours.   Either way, if your hope is to become a professional airline pilot, a 4 year degree is typically required (if not required-it will definitely make you a lot less competitive if you do not have one).  Bottom line, IMHO, you should stay in school and finish your degree.  If you can complete some flight training along the way, then definitely do that.  Guys get hired as pilots all the time with only a few hundred hours – a lot of times you just have to be in the right place at the right time.  Good luck. Phil

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….I’m a 22 year old college student with zero flying experience. I’m thinking of the possibility of becoming a commerical cargo or airline pilot.  I’m not that great of a student book wise, but when it comes to things that are hands on I’m pretty good at.  I have taken driver’s ed, motorcycle ed, welding and scuba diving to name the major ones and each time I’ve picked it up very quickly.  I have a associated degree in business from the local community college and am now studying engineering there but its getting difficult (and boring).  So this got me thinking into perhaps becoming a commercial pilot. Ive researched the various steps involved and its min 40 hours and avg 65 hours to get the private pilots license. Ive gathered so far that 1) flight school is expensive 2) it takes thousands upon thousands of hours for you to even be considered by the major airlines or shipping companies.  3) the market right now for career pilots isnt that hot 4) you’re gonna be one poor SOB before you reach the commercial airlines But I’m thinking when/if I got out in 4 or 5 years or so, the market will be better looking.  Is it true many of the vietnam and korea pilots will be required to reture by age 60 and this would open up the market some?  Also, almost no job just starting out of school is going to pay the big bucks that you have to work and cilmb up the ladder for. My parents are pretty opposed cause they are more traditional in thinking the "get a degree and a desk job" and my mom feels that I might crash.  My mom also told me she has a friend who’s neighbor is a commericial pilot.  His family lives in virginia but he has to rent an apartment in boston because thats where he’s based out of and the airline wont pay for the relocation either.  That and he only gets to come home on the weekends. I thought about the military route as well, but am not sure whats the best path to take if I were to go that route. I read a really good FAQ either here on the groups or on the net a while ago but I cant seem to find it.  Can anybody point me in a good direction?  I’ve been to beapilot.com. as well as studentpilot.com seem to be pretty good. Oh yeah tomorow (if the weather is ok) I go for my first 1/2 hour introductory flight lesson.  Then I can really see if I like it or not.  If there are any career commercial pilots in here that would be great.  Thanks.

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I’m assuming that means the requisite XC time for the actual rating. As far as I knew, you could begin training for the instrument rating any time you want – you just can’t get the actual rating without the required hours and such. Is that correct?

Yes, but several instructors strongly suggested that I get the XC logged first. I’ve been told that it’s best to approach instrument training at full force and barrel through it with as few delays as possible, even more so than primary. And IFR builds on VFR skills, so the experience is important. As such, I don’t plan to start the actual flying until a) I’ve done some reading/studying on my own, and b) I have enough $$$ saved to pay for everything as I go. -John — John R. Hall, PP ASEL http://www.overcode.net

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Those that graduate with you will always be ahead of you financially.

That’s a little unclear.  Could you please explain? I’m in a similar situation as the original poster except I have a B.S. degree (calling it ‘B.S.’ used to be funny before the telecom collapse) and 120 hours on my PP/SEL and I’m 34, not 22.   Given the telecom job market I decided to go back to school:  So, then, an Engineering Tech degree or do I take out a Key Bank aviation education loan and go for my commercial and CFI? I just passed my Class II Medical on Thursday and the loan has been approved.   Did I make the right decision?  Uhhh….Eric, I’m with you brother! What I can say is that I’ve never spent a single dollar flying that I’ve ever once regretted, even when I had to eat mac and cheese and ramen to make the bills. -c

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I’m still trying to decide when and where to work on my instrument rating. I finally have the requisite XC time,

I’m assuming that means the requisite XC time for the actual rating. As far as I knew, you could begin training for the instrument rating any time you want – you just can’t get the actual rating without the required hours and such. Is that correct? — Chris Hoffmann <30 hours

Response:

Eric, I’m a small business owner who owns and flies his own aircraft for business and personal use.  I got back into flying four years ago when my wife told me I needed a hobby besides working. I racked up my instrument rating, decided commercial might be fun, and added a multi-engine rating when I bought a light twin.  By that point I was addicted, so I got my flight instructor certificate with all the airplane ratings (CFII/MEI) and while I was at it decided to get rated in helicopters because they were fun to fly.  Then, I added a helicopter rating to my instructor ticket.  Now, hardly understanding how I got to this point, I’m studying for my ATP certificate, which I hope will be an extra feather in my cap when I finally leave behind my small business for good and focus on my "second life" as a professional pilot. Pilot hiring has always been cyclical.  I remember going to ComAir’s career fair when I was 14 years old in 1988.  I talked with representatives from Delta who assured me that there had never been a better time to start a career in aviation.  By the time I graduated high school, that had changed, and I discarded aviation as an option.  In the late 90s that reversed once again, and for a time if you had a few hundred hours and a clean shaven face, you’d be plucked from the instructor ranks to work for the regional airline of your choice. It goes without saying that with the economy in its present state we’re back in the dumper again.  However, that has never really hampered my enthusiasm too much; I can bide my time, work as an instructor for peanuts (and I love it), deliver airplanes and that sort of thing.  When the time is right the market will open back up and hiring will resume.  It’s just a matter of time.  If anything I think being hired during the ‘depression’ is the best goal one can have, because it gives you the longest period of sustained work until the next reversion occurs, and you’ll have a lot more seniority than the 300 hr. kid who got hired at the height of the hiring craze. Pay your dues, be patient, and try to ease into aviation rather than flip a switch. I realize that at your age that might seem more difficult, but I started "easing into it" when I was 24, not much older than you are now. Only difference was, I didn’t know that aviation would change my life when I got involved.  It happened to me almost by accident. Keep in mind that there are options other  than what most pilots call "the majors."  (I’ve never wanted an airline job.)  Keep in mind that regardless of pilot hiring cycles, the airline industry is mutating into a different animal.  The pay probably won’t be as good as it once was, the schedule usually sucks, and much of the sparkle and romance are gone forever.  For these reasons you might want to consider other options such as fractionals (i.e. Flexjet, NetJets, etc.), corporate, etc.  Basically, you’ll be consigning yourself to flying turboprops and business jets vs. airliners, but the flying (to me, anyway) looks to be a lot more interesting and the lifestyle vastly more appealing.  The downside, of course, is that you won’t be making the big bucks like the 55 year-old 777 captain.   But riding that wave is a short ride, unfortunately.  By the time you’ll have the seniority to fly as captain in that sort of equipment you’ll be looking at mandatory retirement (age 60) just around the corner. -Ryan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My parents are pretty opposed cause they are more traditional in thinking the "get a degree and a desk job" and my mom feels that I might crash.  My mom also told me she has a friend who’s neighbor is a commericial pilot.  His family lives in virginia but he has to rent an apartment in boston because thats where he’s based out of and the airline wont pay for the relocation either.  That and he only gets to come home on the weekends.

Response:

But I’m thinking when/if I got out in 4 or 5 years or so, the market will be better looking.  Is it true many of the vietnam and korea pilots will be required to reture by age 60 and this would open up the market some?

Considering the Korea war ended 50 years ago, you can expect most of the pilots of that time to have retired some time ago.  

Response:

If I had to do it all over again, I would have flown in the Military.  You get some of the best training, and you get paid to do it.  I know the Army is looking for people in your age range with a BS / BA to attend Warrant Offices School and fly Helicopters.   You can do your 6 years, and when you get out you will have a lot of hours and all the training you will need. Good luck and have fun. Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….I’m a 22 year old college student with zero flying experience. I’m thinking of the possibility of becoming a commerical cargo or airline pilot.  I’m not that great of a student book wise, but when it comes to things that are hands on I’m pretty good at.  I have taken driver’s ed, motorcycle ed, welding and scuba diving to name the major ones and each time I’ve picked it up very quickly.  I have a associated degree in business from the local community college and am now studying engineering there but its getting difficult (and boring).  So this got me thinking into perhaps becoming a commercial pilot. Ive researched the various steps involved and its min 40 hours and avg 65 hours to get the private pilots license. Ive gathered so far that 1) flight school is expensive 2) it takes thousands upon thousands of hours for you to even be considered by the major airlines or shipping companies.  3) the market right now for career pilots isnt that hot 4) you’re gonna be one poor SOB before you reach the commercial airlines But I’m thinking when/if I got out in 4 or 5 years or so, the market will be better looking.  Is it true many of the vietnam and korea pilots will be required to reture by age 60 and this would open up the market some?  Also, almost no job just starting out of school is going to pay the big bucks that you have to work and cilmb up the ladder for. My parents are pretty opposed cause they are more traditional in thinking the "get a degree and a desk job" and my mom feels that I might crash.  My mom also told me she has a friend who’s neighbor is a commericial pilot.  His family lives in virginia but he has to rent an apartment in boston because thats where he’s based out of and the airline wont pay for the relocation either.  That and he only gets to come home on the weekends. I thought about the military route as well, but am not sure whats the best path to take if I were to go that route. I read a really good FAQ either here on the groups or on the net a while ago but I cant seem to find it.  Can anybody point me in a good direction?  I’ve been to beapilot.com. as well as studentpilot.com seem to be pretty good. Oh yeah tomorow (if the weather is ok) I go for my first 1/2 hour introductory flight lesson.  Then I can really see if I like it or not.  If there are any career commercial pilots in here that would be great.  Thanks.

Response:

I think it depends on the student, and instructor. To say 40 hours is too little for a safe novice doesn’t add up, because we all solo LONG before 40 hours. I did at 12, and at least as far as what I’ve seen, that is about normal. Granted, solo doesn’t mean you are ready for passengers, but it should mean you are really close. I value my own hide as much as anyone else’s, so I didn’t do anything solo I wouldn’t do with pax.

It’s true that student pilots should be fairly proficient in the fundamentals of staying in the air, taking off and landing in low winds, and basic navigation by the time they solo. But judging by how quickly I got lost on my first solo XC (let’s just say ZTL got really helpful really fast when they learned a solo student was off course near their class B , it’s important not to overestimate the capabilities of very-low-time pilots in general. Planning for the national average of 65 is a good idea though. Its a matter of commitment. Be sure and find an instructor you are compatible with. That is a huge thing. I am now working on my instrument rating, and to be honest, its not because I want the rating so much as I just missed flying with my instructor.

I’m still trying to decide when and where to work on my instrument rating. I finally have the requisite XC time, and I’d really like to be able to fly IFR out of Santa Monica’s very frequent marine layer, but fitting it in with work will be an interesting challenge. Good luck! -John — John R. Hall, PP ASEL http://www.overcode.net

Response:

….I’m a 22 year old college student with zero flying experience. I’m thinking of the possibility of becoming a commerical cargo or airline pilot.  I’m not that great of a student book wise, but when it comes to things that are hands on I’m pretty good at.  I have taken driver’s ed, motorcycle ed, welding and scuba diving to name the major ones and each time I’ve picked it up very quickly.  I have a associated degree in business from the local community college and am now studying engineering there but its getting difficult (and boring).  So this got me thinking into perhaps becoming a commercial pilot. Ive researched the various steps involved and its min 40 hours and avg 65 hours to get the private pilots license. Ive gathered so far that 1) flight school is expensive 2) it takes thousands upon thousands of hours for you to even be considered by the major airlines or shipping companies.  3) the market right now for career pilots isnt that hot 4) you’re gonna be one poor SOB before you reach the commercial airlines But I’m thinking when/if I got out in 4 or 5 years or so, the market will be better looking.  Is it true many of the vietnam and korea pilots will be required to reture by age 60 and this would open up the market some?  Also, almost no job just starting out of school is going to pay the big bucks that you have to work and cilmb up the ladder for. My parents are pretty opposed cause they are more traditional in thinking the "get a degree and a desk job" and my mom feels that I might crash.  My mom also told me she has a friend who’s neighbor is a commericial pilot.  His family lives in virginia but he has to rent an apartment in boston because thats where he’s based out of and the airline wont pay for the relocation either.  That and he only gets to come home on the weekends. I thought about the military route as well, but am not sure whats the best path to take if I were to go that route. I read a really good FAQ either here on the groups or on the net a while ago but I cant seem to find it.  Can anybody point me in a good direction?  I’ve been to beapilot.com. as well as studentpilot.com seem to be pretty good. Oh yeah tomorow (if the weather is ok) I go for my first 1/2 hour introductory flight lesson.  Then I can really see if I like it or not.  If there are any career commercial pilots in here that would be great.  Thanks.

Response:

….I’m a 22 year old college student with zero flying experience. I’m thinking of the possibility of becoming a commerical cargo or airline pilot.  I’m not that great of a student book wise, but when it comes to things that are hands on I’m pretty good at.  I have taken driver’s ed, motorcycle ed, welding and scuba diving to name the major ones and each time I’ve picked it up very quickly.  I have a associated degree in business from the local community college and am now studying engineering there but its getting difficult (and boring).  So this got me thinking into perhaps becoming a commercial pilot. Ive researched the various steps involved and its min 40 hours and avg 65 hours to get the private pilots license.

Incidentally, I’m a 22 year old just-out-of-college-student. I’m not a commercial pilot (yet!), but having recently gotten my private license and spent a good many hours flying to random places in Southern California, I can say learning to fly is one of the most fulfilling things I’ve ever done. For what it’s worth, I’m a full time programmer during the week, and my plan is to slowly build time and additional ratings and decide whether I want to become a professional pilot a few years down the road. A 2-3 hour cross country flight does wonders for blowing off a week’s worth of office stress. You don’t have to decide to go for commercial now. That’s way down the road. I strongly encourage you to go through with your private pilot license, though. The addiction will probably take care of the rest, and if you decide not to become a pro, you’ll still have the most awesome hobby in the world. And desk jobs will ALWAYS be there… BTW, plan on at least 60 hours for your PPL. 40 is just not realistic unless you do some sort of accelerated program, and I’m personally of the opinion that 40 hours really isn’t enough to produce a safe novice pilot anyway. -John — John R. Hall, PP ASEL http://www.overcode.net

Response:

The long term prospects for a career in aviation are pretty good. The airlines are rather cyclical in nature. A lot of the airlines that last month said they were not hiring are hiring this month. It does not take thousands and thousands of hours to become an airline pilot. It does take planning and a concerted effort to achieve that goal. The best thing to do is to find an airline pilot who will act as your mentor in achieving your career goals. You will never make up the money you lose on training and lost time in starting your career. Those that graduate with you will always be ahead of you financially. Your mom is right. You might crash. Or an airliner flown by terrorists might kill you while you are sitting at your desk on the ground.

Response:

BTW, plan on at least 60 hours for your PPL. 40 is just not realistic unless you do some sort of accelerated program, and I’m personally of the opinion that 40 hours really isn’t enough to produce a safe novice pilot anyway.

I did mine in 42, and it was through a private instructor. Plus it was in the Pacific Northwest, so half the time we were rained out. Now I’m at 130 (still very low time to be sure), and I still believe I was plenty safe then. I think it depends on the student, and instructor. To say 40 hours is too little for a safe novice doesn’t add up, because we all solo LONG before 40 hours. I did at 12, and at least as far as what I’ve seen, that is about normal. Granted, solo doesn’t mean you are ready for passengers, but it should mean you are really close. I value my own hide as much as anyone else’s, so I didn’t do anything solo I wouldn’t do with pax. Planning for the national average of 65 is a good idea though. Its a matter of commitment. Be sure and find an instructor you are compatible with. That is a huge thing. I am now working on my instrument rating, and to be honest, its not because I want the rating so much as I just missed flying with my instructor.

Response:

I fly for fun, but the aviation market (unless you are selling fuel) is certainly poor now. So who will profit when the airlines come back? Sombody will need to fill those seats because even the returning furloghed captains will age out. One thing for sure – if you dont have your ratings and PIC time when the hiring starts, you wont be in the game. Have you considered getting your A/P (airframe/ powerplant) mechanic’s rating?  A good pair of hands can make some decent money, you can probably get a discount on flight lessons once you are a rated mechanic working for a flight school, and you’ll need to know a ton of systems stuff to become an ATP / tubine pilot anyway…. good luck & if you stick with engineering – LEARN TO FLY ANYWAY!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….I’m a 22 year old college student with zero flying experience. I’m thinking of the possibility of becoming a commerical cargo or airline pilot.  I’m not that great of a student book wise, but when it comes to things that are hands on I’m pretty good at.  I have taken driver’s ed, motorcycle ed, welding and scuba diving to name the major ones and each time I’ve picked it up very quickly.  I have a associated degree in business from the local community college and am now studying engineering there but its getting difficult (and boring).  So this got me thinking into perhaps becoming a commercial pilot. Ive researched the various steps involved and its min 40 hours and avg 65 hours to get the private pilots license. Ive gathered so far that 1) flight school is expensive 2) it takes thousands upon thousands of hours for you to even be considered by the major airlines or shipping companies.  3) the market right now for career pilots isnt that hot 4) you’re gonna be one poor SOB before you reach the commercial airlines But I’m thinking when/if I got out in 4 or 5 years or so, the market will be better looking.  Is it true many of the vietnam and korea pilots will be required to reture by age 60 and this would open up the market some?  Also, almost no job just starting out of school is going to pay the big bucks that you have to work and cilmb up the ladder for. My parents are pretty opposed cause they are more traditional in thinking the "get a degree and a desk job" and my mom feels that I might crash.  My mom also told me she has a friend who’s neighbor is a commericial pilot.  His family lives in virginia but he has to rent an apartment in boston because thats where he’s based out of and the airline wont pay for the relocation either.  That and he only gets to come home on the weekends. I thought about the military route as well, but am not sure whats the best path to take if I were to go that route. I read a really good FAQ either here on the groups or on the net a while ago but I cant seem to find it.  Can anybody point me in a good direction?  I’ve been to beapilot.com. as well as studentpilot.com seem to be pretty good. Oh yeah tomorow (if the weather is ok) I go for my first 1/2 hour introductory flight lesson.  Then I can really see if I like it or not.  If there are any career commercial pilots in here that would be great.  Thanks.

Response:

Question:

It’s a cliche that tax accountants and their clients are fond of grumbling about the taxes they pay which is completely understandable.  However, in light of recent events that have placed our soldiers in harms way at a large cost in both human and fiscal terms, is there a little more cheerfulness lately about paying tax or at least less grumbling? As accountants, are we less likely to accomodate very aggressive and probably legal positions amid renewed patriotic fervor or is it pretty much business as usual?

Response:

It’s a cliche that tax accountants and their clients are fond of grumbling about the taxes they pay which is completely understandable.  However, in light of recent events that have placed our soldiers in harms way at a large cost in both human and fiscal terms, is there a little more cheerfulness lately about paying tax or at least less grumbling? As accountants, are we less likely to accomodate very aggressive and probably legal positions amid renewed patriotic fervor or is it pretty much business as usual?

Pretty much ‘business as usual’. I’m not going to tell my clients to pay more taxes because "the boys are at war". — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia

Response:

Question:

Can’t you use something like simply accounting?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need an inexpensive inventory software program (less than $1,000) to run in Windows.  I plan to use it for a medical supply room.  It needs to have a bar code scanning capability so that I can scan the multiple items "picked" out of inventory and shipped to my doctors off-site. Any help in identifying potetial software would be appreciated.

Response:

I need an inexpensive inventory software program (less than $1,000) to run in Windows.  I plan to use it for a medical supply room.  It needs to have a bar code scanning capability so that I can scan the multiple items "picked" out of inventory and shipped to my doctors off-site. Any help in identifying potetial software would be appreciated.

Response:

The barcode scanning is going to be the issue.  ACCPAC Vision point can be modified to handle it easily.  Don’t think any of the low ends (Under a $1000) will do the job.  Also suspect your inventory needs might swamp them too.  If you say under $5000 might be able to find something. Bill Couture http:\www.sbtbill.com

Response:

Look for wedge type bar code scanners work with your keyboard. At any point in your software where you normally type in a part number or name you can scan it. Its as is you typed in the name or number. — Karl E Irvin, CPA Arlington, Texas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need an inexpensive inventory software program (less than $1,000) to run in Windows.  I plan to use it for a medical supply room.  It needs to have a bar code scanning capability so that I can scan the multiple items "picked" out of inventory and shipped to my doctors off-site. Any help in identifying potetial software would be appreciated.

Response:

Question:

SEC’s Pitt Calls for Stock Option Reforms By Jackie Spinner Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, April 5, 2002; Page E03 Corporations should not be able to freely hand out stock options to senior executives without more input from shareholders and independent directors of the company, Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey L. Pitt said yesterday. <snip Options should be awarded by a committee of independent directors to executives who oversee sustained growth at a company and should not be based on short-term earnings growth, Pitt said in a speech at Northwestern University in Chicago. <snip One proposed reform that Pitt has not embraced would require companies to treat stock options as an expense. Some proponents of the change say the current system allows companies to use options to attract and retain top executives without taking a hit to the bottom line. Pitt did not address that issue yesterday. "That is a dog that is not barking in this speech," said Lynn Stout, a securities law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles. "The real problem lies in the accounting treatment of stock options. His failure to address that issue is quite notable." — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SEC’s Pitt Calls for Stock Option Reforms By Jackie Spinner Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, April 5, 2002; Page E03 Corporations should not be able to freely hand out stock options to senior executives without more input from shareholders and independent directors of the company, Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey L. Pitt said yesterday. <snip Options should be awarded by a committee of independent directors to executives who oversee sustained growth at a company and should not be based on short-term earnings growth, Pitt said in a speech at Northwestern University in Chicago. <snip One proposed reform that Pitt has not embraced would require companies to treat stock options as an expense. Some proponents of the change say the current system allows companies to use options to attract and retain top executives without taking a hit to the bottom line. Pitt did not address that issue yesterday. "That is a dog that is not barking in this speech," said Lynn Stout, a securities law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles. "The real problem lies in the accounting treatment of stock options. His failure to address that issue is quite notable."

As mentioned in previous posts, GWB’s appointment of Pitt incited skepticism. Based on information available publicly, Pitt appears to be someone who wets his finger, sees which direction the wind is blowing, and walks slowly in that direction lest the wind change. This description fits the usual definition of "amoral". Pitt, like the Big 4 and others profiting from the "soft occupational fraud system", will try and wait out the storm, do nothing that would really rock the boat, and soon get back to business (= doing and condoning creative accounting) as usual. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": strategic Waco, Texas World Trade Center Honduras SDI kibo cryptographic

Response:

<<SNIP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One proposed reform that Pitt has not embraced would require companies to treat stock options as an expense. Some proponents of the change say the current system allows companies to use options to attract and retain top executives without taking a hit to the bottom line. Pitt did not address that issue yesterday. "That is a dog that is not barking in this speech," said Lynn Stout, a securities law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles. "The real problem lies in the accounting treatment of stock options. His failure to address that issue is quite notable." As mentioned in previous posts, GWB’s appointment of Pitt incited skepticism. Based on information available publicly, Pitt appears to be someone who wets his finger, sees which direction the wind is blowing, and walks slowly in that direction lest the wind change. This description fits the usual definition of "amoral". Pitt, like the Big 4 and others profiting from the "soft occupational fraud system", will try and wait out the storm, do nothing that would really rock the boat, and soon get back to business (= doing and condoning creative accounting) as usual.

That is exactly my working hypothesis of Mr. Pitt. I do hope, Lucien, that you and I are mistaken about him. Regards, Bill

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Question:

How are you today, sis? Love, Ang unpocaloca <unpocal…@mchsi.com> wrote in message

news:1R8p8.167247$q2.16327@sccrnsc01… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve had a very, very bad day and I’ve been put to the test. I want to cut > so very badly! If it weren’t for a birthday party and an Easter egg hunt > tomorrow then I probably would have already cut. I’m going to go self > medicate and go to bed. Fuck it! > ~Michele <——-is totally screwed up!

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I’ve had a very, very bad day and I’ve been put to the test. I want to cut so very badly! If it weren’t for a birthday party and an Easter egg hunt tomorrow then I probably would have already cut. I’m going to go self medicate and go to bed. Fuck it! ~Michele <——-is totally screwed up!

Response:

> I’ve had a very, very bad day and I’ve been put to the test. I want to cut > so very badly! If it weren’t for a birthday party and an Easter egg hunt > tomorrow then I probably would have already cut. I’m going to go self > medicate and go to bed. Fuck it!

I wish I could sit with you for a while. In silence, in quiet conversation, telling you a story, whatever. Pretty rotten at my end, too. We could commiserate. Alan

Response:

I wish I could sit with both of you and build a blazing fire in the fireplace and contemplate our navals.  I hope you both have a better day tomorrow.  I’m with you both! Deb On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:47:11 -0800, "Alan Winston" <awins…@scn.org> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I’ve had a very, very bad day and I’ve been put to the test. I want to cut >> so very badly! If it weren’t for a birthday party and an Easter egg hunt >> tomorrow then I probably would have already cut. I’m going to go self >> medicate and go to bed. Fuck it! >I wish I could sit with you for a while. >In silence, in quiet conversation, telling you a story, whatever. >Pretty rotten at my end, too. We could commiserate. >Alan

Response:

"Loon Atick" <ds…@mn.rr.com> wrote > I wish I could sit with both of you

But there wouldn’t be enough room after accounting for Loon’s ass. > and build a blazing fire in the fireplace

Why bother?  We could just look at your flaming head. > and contemplate our navals.

There’s a woman in every port and a port in every woman. Navels. > I hope you both have a better > day tomorrow.  I’m with you both!

How could they have a better day when you’re with them?

Response:

commiserate? what’s that? Sorry, I’m a bit on the dumb side and I’m too lazy too look it up. lol. It would be nice to sit a talk and listen to a story. Especially with someone who understands. I didn’t even post the half of it yesterday, but with all the lurkers now days, I’d rather post it in the community. Did you get your invite? Oh, BTW, thanks ~Michele "Alan Winston" <awins…@scn.org> wrote in message

news:a83g0d$qh5$1@brokaw.wa.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I’ve had a very, very bad day and I’ve been put to the test. I want to cut > > so very badly! If it weren’t for a birthday party and an Easter egg hunt > > tomorrow then I probably would have already cut. I’m going to go self > > medicate and go to bed. Fuck it! > I wish I could sit with you for a while. > In silence, in quiet conversation, telling you a story, whatever. > Pretty rotten at my end, too. We could commiserate. > Alan

Response:

> commiserate? what’s that? Sorry, I’m a bit on the dumb side and I’m too lazy > too look it up. lol. It would be nice to sit a talk and listen to a story.

commiserate: "to feel or express sympathy : CONDOLE " [ http://www.m-w.com ] In this context, mutually and cooperatively. > Especially with someone who understands. I didn’t even post the half of it > yesterday, but with all the lurkers now days, I’d rather post it in the > community. Did you get your invite?

I don’t think so, but I could have deep deleted it and repressed any recollection of having done so. Real-time interaction is scary, the more people, the scarier. I also don’t allow IM on my computers: I don’t trust Microsoft with that kind of opening. Alan [Wuss]

Response:

Question:

I thought that most importantly, the deposit was intended to hold the boat if and when another person wanted to buy it.  Because the timeframe was only one week, and because no one else even called to inquire about the boat, I would think there was no real justification for keeping the deposit.  Some of the responses referenced that the owner of the boat was a dealer.  He was not.  He was a private seller.   Finally, in any "deal" isn’t it a two way street?  I always thought that one person gave money to the deal and the other gave value, in this case the boat. I don’t really understand why he is justified in keeping $1500 and is required to give nothing.  If someone else had wanted to buy the boat and he said "no", or if he had taken it off the market, or if he had held the boat for me for a significant amount of time, I would understand.

Response:

"there has to be some SOLID indication of good faith before I’ll take the time and trouble to give you what would otherwise be a free ride.)" You don’t think that 3 visits to look at the boat at 200 miles round trip each and $1500 cash is "solid indication of good faith"?

Response:

I’m naturally agreeing with you.  I paid all of the expenses to get the boat in the water, I have offered to pay him for his time (very little, he didn’t even show up for the sea trial, I had to pay the marina mechanic to take the boat out with me), and I’ve offered to pay for winterizing if he doesn’t sell it.  I can’t see any "harm" that has come over him in this deal.  He now has his boat summerized, both engines compression tested and documented, put in the slip, and opened for the season, all on my dime.  In addition to all this, he’s keeping the deposit.  The more I write, the angrier I’m getting. Thanks to everyone for the great responses.  If nothing else, it was a great topic of discussion, and a good lesson for anyone else to read. If you put it in the simplest context, it almost sounds foolish: "I’d like to buy your boat, and I’ll pay what you’re asking". Good, I want $1500 deposit. "OK, here you go". (1 week later, 1 month before season starts), "I can’t buy the boat, my wife lost her job" (honest). Too bad, I’m keeping your deposit, and giving you nothing for it! Thanks.  Nice doing business with you.   Oh well.  It wouldn’t hurt quite so much is we didn’t need the money cause my wife’s not working.  That’s an extra sting. Wayne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You don’t think that 3 visits to look at the boat at 200 miles round trip each and $1500 cash is "solid indication of good faith"? Yes, I do. I also think that once you accept the boat, its yours.  If you fail to close after all YOUR contingencies (remember, you specified what they were) are satisfied, then the seller is fully justified in keeping the deposit. The deposit serves several purposes: 1.  It takes the boat off the market, preventing someone else from    buying it during the time the deal is being negotiated, inspections    are taking place, etc. 2.  It shows you are serious AND you are willing to lock the deal    down.  The latter is important; if there is nothing to lose on    your part then you’re not serious by definition.  (It also shows    you CAN do the deal; few people toss 10% of the purchase down    the hole, so if you fund THAT you’re likely to be able to close.) 3.  It compensates the seller if the deal goes bad due to something    other than your specified contingencies. Boat deals are pretty open ended things in terms of when you lock the deal. But after your satisfy the contingencies – sea trial, inspection, and any surveys – if you ACCEPT the boat you’re on the hook to close. The value of a deposit to both parties is destroyed if there is no point before closing when you become obligated to complete the deal.  In that case you may as well not put any deposit down at all.  There is no way for the seller to ascertain good faith, and there should be no protection for the buyer who gets the boat sold out from under him or her. Boat deals have costs (as do real estate deals) that are incurred by both parties before the deal closes.  If I’m going to pay for a survey I damn well want to know that the boat won’t be sold out from under me without recourse!  Likewise, the seller wants to know that if I ACCEPT the boat I will close; he’s taken it off the market during that time and, assuming I am satisfied with the condition, ride, operation, etc – I am going to buy it. This is not to say that a seller CAN’T let you back out – only that you cannot FORCE him to refund the deposit and that morally, ethically and legally he is in the right if he keeps it. If he gives it back under the circumstances put forth he’s doing you a favor.  

Karl, I’ll give you the point of legally keeping it, but I would question the use of words like ‘morally and ethically’. "Hey Karl, where’d you get the extra $1500?" Some sap gave me a deposit on my boat and then lost his job and couldn’t buy it. "Karl, what did you give him for the $1500 you kept"? Nothing. Moral?  Ethical?  Isn’t there some point of the monetary amount being "reasonable"?  After all, he is out nothing, not even time, and he is giving nothing for keeping the money.  If it is meant to be a whipping stick to teach me never again to approach a deal like this, then I stand corrected.   I’m done.  Nice debate though.  You do bring up several good points.  I’m sure that I’d be more prone to agree with some of it if the tables were turned, however I believe down deep that if someone approached me with all the circumstances of the deal that I had gone through, I wouldn’t even wait for him to ask me for it back.  I’d offer it. One more thing I forgot to mention, he also told me on the phone that he was not planning on actively selling it anymore.  He would hold the deposit until I was ready to buy it again.  If I didn’t, he said he would continue to use the money to winterize and then summerize next year.  Great!  Sounds like he found the perfect deal.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I thought that most importantly, the deposit was intended to hold the boat if and when another person wanted to buy it.  Because the timeframe was only one week, and because no one else even called to inquire about the boat, I would think there was no real justification for keeping the deposit.  Some of the responses referenced that the owner of the boat was a dealer.  He was not. He was a private seller.   Finally, in any "deal" isn’t it a two way street?  I always thought that one person gave money to the deal and the other gave value, in this case the boat. I don’t really understand why he is justified in keeping $1500 and is required to give nothing.  If someone else had wanted to buy the boat and he said "no", or if he had taken it off the market, or if he had held the boat for me for a significant amount of time, I would understand.

OK Stop whinning and consider it a lesson in Life.I think he should return your money IMHO but He doesen’t. Get on with your life and find another boat later…Larry Hill

Response:

I would never accept escrow under the rubric that the buyer can back out and get the entire thing back for no reason whatsoever after they’ve accepted the boat and we’ve done the inspections, sea trial, etc!

Who said anything about escrow?It was a private dael!   Larry Hill

Response:

Wayne, you might want to consult a lawyer.  From my business law classes (NO, I’m not a lawyer, and this isn’t to be construed as legal advice), I remember: There are 3 elements necessary to the formation and binding of a contract: Offer (he offered the boat to you) Acceptance (you accepted the offer, contingent on your qualifying the boat through survey, which it passed) Consideration (anything of value that changes hands, usually, but not necessarily, money.  And any amount will do, even one cent.) Verbal contracts are binding, except (at least in Massachusetts) in the case of real estate transactions, which must be in writing. At this point, you’re obligated to buy the boat, and he’s obligated to sell it to you.  Either could sue the other to force "specific performance", or completion of the contract.  If either can not perform, and the other incurs actual damages, he can sue the other for the costs of those damages. It seems that you had only a verbal contract – unless I missed something. And without a specific delivery date, you could argue that you’re still in the process of fulfilling your part of the contract (the remaining $23,500). In other words, you have not REFUSED to perform – you just have not done so YET, and you’re not obligated to meet any particular date.  A judge might subject that argument to a test of "reasonableness" though – you would likely lose. Here’s one in your favor.  Unless I miss my guess (and I might), he’s obligated to present the boat to you in the same condition as it was in when the contract was bound – that MIGHT mean that he can’t even use it, since the boat would be "more used" that what you had agreed to buy. You can see that without a sepcified delivery date, that’s a very poorly stated contract, which could hurt him more than it could hurt you.  Of course, it’s almost as important as a clause stating what happens to a deposit if the deal isn’t closed. The other wild card is that he could find another buyer at the $25,000 price.  If he can’t consumate the second deal because he’s still legally obligated to you, and you can’t perform (paying the balance of $23,500), he could indeed show damages of $23,500 and sue you for it. If it was just the $1,500, I might take it to small claims court – but my guess is that you would lose the deposit.  But I think you could have a larger problem in the case of another buyer, as I stated above.  That might make it worth getting some real legal advice. Good luck to you and your wife.  I hope she finds work soon. Charlie M/V Wavelength

Response:

I’m naturally agreeing with you.  I paid all of the expenses to get the boat in the water, I have offered to pay him for his time (very little, he didn’t even show up for the sea trial, I had to pay the marina mechanic to take the boat out with me), and I’ve offered to pay for winterizing if he doesn’t sell it.  I can’t see any "harm" that has come over him in this deal.  He now has his boat summerized, both engines compression tested and documented, put in the slip, and opened for the season, all on my dime.  In addition to all this, he’s keeping the deposit.  The more I write, the angrier I’m getting.

Let’s say that you went to pick up the boat on Saturday morning, and he handed you back your money and told you "no sale."  You would be in here screaming "We had a deal!" Or, let’s say that you had the boat.  It’s time to sell it, you put it on the market, I come along and say that I’ll take it.  I give you a deposit of about 7% like you did.  Then I decide not to get it.  You’re going to keep my money and come in here to scream that "we had a deal!" You DID have a deal.  You gave him the money to seal it.  You backed out.  He gets to keep your money. That’s the way it works.  What he is doing is more moral than what you are doing. Maybe next time, you will have your financing in line before you go look at boats, and this won’t be an issue.

Response:

As always, (reading the follow-ups to the original posting), there are many opinions as to what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s legal (or not illegal), and what’s illegal. If it were me, I’d return the deposit, assuming I incurred no out-of-pocket expenses and that I didn’t turn down another qualified buyer (the old "no harm, no foul" rule), but mostly, as another poster pointed out, one’s name is priceless…mine is worth more than $1,500. I’d rather be known as the guy who took the wife’s layoff into account, returned the money with regrets, as opposed to being known as the "legal, but no mercy" guy. Different strokes and all that I guess. I still do business on a handshake, so what do I know? engsol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How about some hardline opinions on what happened to me.  Here’s the short version. We found the perfect boat for us used, private owner selling it. We gave a $1500 deposit and a week later went back for a sea trial. After Sea Trial (same day) we agreed to buy boat for $25,000.  We would have the money in 3 days time. Next day, wife went to work and found out she was laid off! Called boat owner to call off deal, and he said "OK, but I’m keeping the deposit, if your situation changes the boat will still be here.  I’m not going to actively sell it and if it comes to winter time, I’ll use the deposit to take care of winterizing and storing". I know that he is probably ‘legally’ allowed to keep the money, but come on. He told us he doesn’t need the money, (there’s no loan on the boat), he told us no one else had come to look at the boat during the week he had the deposit, and we have also paid all the marina expenses for launching the boat, checking compression, and everything else ($350).  He has agreed to pay the marina expenses out of the deposit. All done, if we don’t buy this boat, we will be out $1500.  I can’t believe that if I was in the same position, I would do the same.  I know I would give back the money unless I had turned down another potential buyer.  By the way, we were going to give him the asking price for the boat. Well, I’m bracing myself.  Go ahead and let me know what you think.  Was I a fool for giving him the deposit amount he asked for instead of giving him $100 like I should have? I feel like an idiot!

Response:

The deposit is earnest money on a sale, based on criteria to be met. These are usually personal inspection, sea trial, survey, and financing. When the contract is signed, the buyer puts down the money, but can back out at any time if he doesn’t approve the boat. The sea trial or personal inspection can be the most easily used reasons. I just bought a new boat…gave the owner a $1000 deposit, but sent the balance of the 10% deposit to Boat U.S., while using their closing service. They have a full package, or just carte blanche. I think it was really worth it to have them hold the deposit, waiting on my approval to send it to the sellers. I’d recommend that folks use this service alone, even if you don’t get their full package. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a little different situation. They put a deposit on the boat subject to the usual conditions. They then SATISFIED the conditions – the sea trial and such went fine, and in fact they agreed on a final price and closing date. At that point you have a hard contract. Does it suck that someone lost their job a couple of days later?  Yes, it does.  However, exactly how is this the *seller’s* fault? $1500 is actually LIGHT for a boat deposit.  Typically sellers ask for 10%, and its a perfectly valid request.  After the survey, inspection and sea trial if you accept the vessel then you’re on the hook – either close or lose the 10%. This guy asked for less.  He was being charitable in the first place. Now would I return the $1500?  Probably.  But I’d verify the story that the buyer was giving me first, in specific and in detail, and insist that they give me whatever releases were necessary to do so (most of the time employers won’t talk to outsiders without a written release.) I’d return it because I’m a nice guy AND, if the story is completely true as stated (that is, his wife didn’t know BEFORE they accepted the boat) then it truly IS an exceptional circumstance. But there is a huge difference between what I’d do – and what I’m OBLIGATED to do. (Anyone who came to look at a boat I was selling for $25,000 and wanted to give me a hundred bucks as a deposit would be laughed off my property.  If you can’t put 10% on the barrel you can’t afford the deal – there has to be some SOLID indication of good faith before I’ll take the time and trouble to give you what would otherwise be a free ride.) — — http://www.denninger.net                        Cost-effective Consulting http://childrens-justice.org                    SIGN THE UPREPA PETITION TODAY I gave a nonrefundable deposit on an apartment once.  Three days later, I changed my mind.  The lessor would not return it, so I waited.  In Indiana, the landlord has 45 days to provide an itemized accounting of why the deposit was kept.  On the 46th day, I called and let them know that I never received the itemization.  She left a message on my machine that said I knew full well that she sent the itemization and that she had the certified receipt to prove it–a blatant lie. I kept the recording, called her owner in Virginia, and told her she was full of it.  I explained that I was bringing the tape to court to play to the judge and that her landlord better have the receipt.  Since there was no receipt, my check was returned later that week. My point?  The landlord was within her right to keep the deposit, so I was screwed…until I found a loophole.  I was patient, and the landlord was stupid…and I got my money back.  Keep looking for a loophole…greedy people that prey on others’ misfortune are scum of the Earth. How about some hardline opinions on what happened to me.  Here’s the short version. We found the perfect boat for us used, private owner selling it. We gave a $1500 deposit and a week later went back for a sea trial. After Sea Trial (same day) we agreed to buy boat for $25,000.  We would have the money in 3 days time. Next day, wife went to work and found out she was laid off! Called boat owner to call off deal, and he said "OK, but I’m keeping the deposit, if your situation changes the boat will still be here.  I’m not going to actively sell it and if it comes to winter time, I’ll use the deposit to take care of winterizing and storing". I know that he is probably ‘legally’ allowed to keep the money, but come on. He told us he doesn’t need the money, (there’s no loan on the boat), he told us no one else had come to look at the boat during the week he had the deposit, and we have also paid all the marina expenses for launching the boat, checking compression, and everything else ($350).  He has agreed to pay the marina expenses out of the deposit. All done, if we don’t buy this boat, we will be out $1500.  I can’t believe that if I was in the same position, I would do the same.  I know I would give back the money unless I had turned down another potential buyer.  By the way, we were going to give him the asking price for the boat. Well, I’m bracing myself.  Go ahead and let me know what you think.  Was I a fool for giving him the deposit amount he asked for instead of giving him $100 like I should have? I feel like an idiot!

– Keith File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)

Response:

Greed is Bad It is one thing if your livelihood depends on your time spent working on a "sale" It is another thing to take advantage of the windfall of someone’s mistake and misfortune. This I define as Greed

I agree with you 100% on this. The guys wife just lost a job and the salesman takes $1500 from him. It all comes around however.

Response:

That’s what I thought. You are greedy and disgusting.

But I have a nice boat so who cares?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * * Greed is Bad * It is one thing if your livelihood depends on your time spent working on a * "sale" * It is another thing to take advantage of the windfall of someone’s mistake * and misfortune. * This I define as Greed * * I agree with you 100% on this. The guys wife just lost a job and the * salesman takes $1500 from him. * * It all comes around however. How much did you give to the starving children of Bangladesh last month? That’s what I thought. You are greedy and disgusting. igor

Gosh…you *are* the same ill-mannered Igor that used to haunt this place. Or you are his brother. — Harry Krause I understand small business growth. I was one. -GW Bush

Response:

Greed is Bad

I think a little greed is good. What about personal responsibility?  When I bought my boat, I paid cash.  It was a cheap boat that I could easily afford.  If I had lost my job the next day (I’m single), I would still have been OK.  I have enough resources that I could ride out a significant dry spell.  At the very least, I would have had plenty of time to sell the boat which would have provided enough money to live for a few more months. It is another thing to take advantage of the windfall of someone’s mistake and misfortune.

The deposit was a commitment to buy the boat.  I feel awful for this guy, but I’m not going to send him $1500.  Why don’t you send him the $1500?  The charity might as well come from you as the original seller. Regards, Tom Brown

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greed is Bad I think a little greed is good. What about personal responsibility?  When I bought my boat, I paid cash.  It was a cheap boat that I could easily afford.  If I had lost my job the next day (I’m single), I would still have been OK.  I have enough resources that I could ride out a significant dry spell.  At the very least, I would have had plenty of time to sell the boat which would have provided enough money to live for a few more months. It is another thing to take advantage of the windfall of someone’s mistake and misfortune. The deposit was a commitment to buy the boat.  I feel awful for this guy, but I’m not going to send him $1500.  Why don’t you send him the $1500?  The charity might as well come from you as the original seller. Regards, Tom Brown

Man, is this a tough group or what? My old man, who was a boat dealer, gave back deposits to customers who had a legit sudden onset financial reversal. — Harry Krause Actually, I — this may sound a little west Texan to you, but I like it. When I’m talking about — when I’m talking about myself, and when he’s talking about myself, all of us are talking about me. George

Question:

     In accordance with your advice, I have run the utilities, and 6 G/L transaction headers were deleted.  This made me very happy, until I ran the trial balance and found that it still carried an excess debit-balance of the same $1919.41 (I guess it just deleted two-sided entries).      I have also been told that Dac Windows has been ordered.  While this is a good thing on one hand, it kind of upsets me because this never (at least in my mind) will have settled.  Really, I don’t think the version is the problem here (we could always close ‘98 with a balance).  All I need is to make a one-sided entry and it would be fine.  I can always cheat by setting a new-account balance for an adjustment account and then never printing the D-account in the trial balance. Could there possibly be anyone else that I should contact who might know how (or have the utility) to post a one-sided entry?  I don’t really want to re-do the chart of accounts; I would again feel like I were cheating.  Oh well; for now I am just going to close with a balance and fix it in 1999 if possible.  Thank you for your help. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with this plan.  It will be the quickest and easiest to resolve. You can try running the utilities to see if they solve any problems for you first.  In the FileUtilities run Verify for the Transaction Header Files for G/L, A/P, etc.  This will clean up the transaction and should throw out any one sided entries.  If that does not work you should follow the procedure outlined below.  Start 99 with a journal entry bringing your balance sheet in and go from there. I do not believe that DacEasy version 7 or earlier is Y2K compliant. This may be a bigger problem for you, and perhaps the reason DacEasy is no longer supporting version 7 or older.  You may need to upgrade even to start clean. Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.   Domatian,   Most Accounting Packages are supported with some sort of utility program   that allows one sided entries, but it is only supplied by the tech support   group. As the version you use is no longer supported, that rules out that   approach.   The only other way that I can think of is to create a fresh set of final   accounts for 1998 by picking up the closing balances in the general ledger.   This will throw the difference into retained earnings, but at least it will   balance.  The problem is that you will lose the detailed transaction   history, but you can print it out from the old record.   Hope this helps.

– ICQ: 13758523 http://www.cyberenet.net/~domitian Before you buy.

Response:

I agree with this plan.  It will be the quickest and easiest to resolve. You can try running the utilities to see if they solve any problems for you first.  In the FileUtilities run Verify for the Transaction Header Files for G/L, A/P, etc.  This will clean up the transaction and should throw out any one sided entries.  If that does not work you should follow the procedure outlined below.  Start 99 with a journal entry bringing your balance sheet in and go from there. I do not believe that DacEasy version 7 or earlier is Y2K compliant.  This may be a bigger problem for you, and perhaps the reason DacEasy is no longer supporting version 7 or older.  You may need to upgrade even to start clean. Let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Don   Regards,   Donald A Haney, MBA   Emergency Care Specialists, PC   "Learning occurs in the mind, independent of time and place." – Plato   Domatian,   Most Accounting Packages are supported with some sort of utility program   that allows one sided entries, but it is only supplied by the tech support   group. As the version you use is no longer supported, that rules out that   approach.   The only other way that I can think of is to create a fresh set of final   accounts for 1998 by picking up the closing balances in the general ledger.   This will throw the difference into retained earnings, but at least it will   balance.  The problem is that you will lose the detailed transaction   history, but you can print it out from the old record.   Hope this helps.   Regards,   Ken        Due to the poor attention my company pays to its accounting needs,   I am the only one left with concern with the general ledger and the   accounting software.  We use DacEasy Accounting 7, and the books for   1998 were never closed.  Since DacEasy apparently can only have 24   periods (i.e., months) active at one time, come 1 January, 2000, we   experienced grand problems.  Part of the reason 1998 was never closed   was because the trial balance was out, resulting in a debit balance of   approximately $1919.  Now for 1997, the books were closed, but the T/B   was also showing a $120 debit balance.  It was disregarded, and, because   of the $1799. debit excess in 1998, the $1919 figure is the new   difference.  No one can quite figure out how this is possible since DEA7   requires that two sided entries _always_ be made (even when assigning a   new account a balance, the other side of the transaction goes into DEA’s   "Difference" account, whose balance is immutable), but for some reason   the T/B’s figures don’t always agree with the G/L balances expressed in   activity reports.        Besides asking why this happens and how a trial balance difference   is even possible with accounting software, I have a more urgent   question, which is (since DacEasy Techs refuse to answer questions about   version 7 any longer): how can one post a one-sided entry?  I must be   able to do this in order to resolve the trial balance and close the   books for 1998 so that I can move into 2000.  I have tried every means   imaginable (including editing Accounts), but DacEasy Accounting just   will not allow it to happen without posting the other side somewhere.   All help on this matter is appreciated since this is quite a pressing   issue.  Thank you.         —   ICQ: 13758523   http://www.cyberenet.net/~domitian     "Great souls have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre   minds."   – Albert Einstein

Response:

Domatian, Most Accounting Packages are supported with some sort of utility program that allows one sided entries, but it is only supplied by the tech support group. As the version you use is no longer supported, that rules out that approach. The only other way that I can think of is to create a fresh set of final accounts for 1998 by picking up the closing balances in the general ledger. This will throw the difference into retained earnings, but at least it will balance.  The problem is that you will lose the detailed transaction history, but you can print it out from the old record. Hope this helps. Regards, Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Due to the poor attention my company pays to its accounting needs, I am the only one left with concern with the general ledger and the accounting software.  We use DacEasy Accounting 7, and the books for 1998 were never closed.  Since DacEasy apparently can only have 24 periods (i.e., months) active at one time, come 1 January, 2000, we experienced grand problems.  Part of the reason 1998 was never closed was because the trial balance was out, resulting in a debit balance of approximately $1919.  Now for 1997, the books were closed, but the T/B was also showing a $120 debit balance.  It was disregarded, and, because of the $1799. debit excess in 1998, the $1919 figure is the new difference.  No one can quite figure out how this is possible since DEA7 requires that two sided entries _always_ be made (even when assigning a new account a balance, the other side of the transaction goes into DEA’s "Difference" account, whose balance is immutable), but for some reason the T/B’s figures don’t always agree with the G/L balances expressed in activity reports.      Besides asking why this happens and how a trial balance difference is even possible with accounting software, I have a more urgent question, which is (since DacEasy Techs refuse to answer questions about version 7 any longer): how can one post a one-sided entry?  I must be able to do this in order to resolve the trial balance and close the books for 1998 so that I can move into 2000.  I have tried every means imaginable (including editing Accounts), but DacEasy Accounting just will not allow it to happen without posting the other side somewhere. All help on this matter is appreciated since this is quite a pressing issue.  Thank you. — ICQ: 13758523 http://www.cyberenet.net/~domitian "Great souls have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." – Albert Einstein

Response:

     Due to the poor attention my company pays to its accounting needs, I am the only one left with concern with the general ledger and the accounting software.  We use DacEasy Accounting 7, and the books for 1998 were never closed.  Since DacEasy apparently can only have 24 periods (i.e., months) active at one time, come 1 January, 2000, we experienced grand problems.  Part of the reason 1998 was never closed was because the trial balance was out, resulting in a debit balance of approximately $1919.  Now for 1997, the books were closed, but the T/B was also showing a $120 debit balance.  It was disregarded, and, because of the $1799. debit excess in 1998, the $1919 figure is the new difference.  No one can quite figure out how this is possible since DEA7 requires that two sided entries _always_ be made (even when assigning a new account a balance, the other side of the transaction goes into DEA’s "Difference" account, whose balance is immutable), but for some reason the T/B’s figures don’t always agree with the G/L balances expressed in activity reports.      Besides asking why this happens and how a trial balance difference is even possible with accounting software, I have a more urgent question, which is (since DacEasy Techs refuse to answer questions about version 7 any longer): how can one post a one-sided entry?  I must be able to do this in order to resolve the trial balance and close the books for 1998 so that I can move into 2000.  I have tried every means imaginable (including editing Accounts), but DacEasy Accounting just will not allow it to happen without posting the other side somewhere. All help on this matter is appreciated since this is quite a pressing issue.  Thank you. — ICQ: 13758523 http://www.cyberenet.net/~domitian "Great souls have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." – Albert Einstein

Response:

Question:

Accounting software package to stay away from. I’ll tell you one not to buy. UA Corporate Accounting. I made the mistake of purchasing this package from the developers, Advanced Software Development Corp. On there web site http://www.advancedsoftware.com/html/why_ua.html they say: "UA Corporate Accounting is built entirely with Microsoft Office programs, such as Excel, Word, and Access. This means that your financial data is accessible from many different programs, each designed to do a different thing. For example, you can instantly create Mail Merge letters for customers with Word, or start a very complicated company project with Microsoft Team Manager. This gives UA Corporate Accounting a distinct advantage…the Microsoft Development Team daily adding to the product. Each new release of Office places U.A. Corporate Accounting further ahead of other systems." They state "Each new release of Office places U.A. Corporate Accounting further ahead of other systems." I find this statement to be false. I am running MS Office 2000 Premium (the newest release of Office) on my system and their software does not operate with this newer version of MS Office. On the same web page, they further state: "Built entirely with Microsoft tools

Question:

What would be a fair price for a round trip ticket to Hanoi (Vietnam) from Seattle, Wa (USA). That would be for 1 passenger leaving from around August 25th up to Sept 5th for 10 days. Traveling dates and duration of stay are open depending of the fare changes. What would be a price for a ticket Seattle – Hanoi – New-York with same spefications. Thanx to get back  to me before July the 9th. Will be leaving France then. Eric

Response:

What would be a fair price for a round trip ticket to Hanoi (Vietnam) from Seattle, Wa (USA).

What is a fair price for travel to Viet Nam?  How about a full accounting of all remaining American POWs and MIAs, and full restitution to the families of all Americans tortured and killed by the barbaric and savage people of Viet Nam?

Response:

What would be a fair price for a round trip ticket to Hanoi (Vietnam) from Seattle, Wa (USA). What is a fair price for travel to Viet Nam?  How about a full accounting of all remaining American POWs and MIAs, and full restitution to the families of all Americans tortured and killed by the barbaric and savage people of Viet Nam?

Given that the Vietnamese suffered over three million dead, still have children killed and maimed as a result of live ordnance scattered around, and have large numbers of children with birth defects as a result of the defoliants sprayed with abandon in the conflict, not to mention that they have more unaccounted-for MIAs than total US casualties in the conflict, I think your response is kind of self-centered.  I would guess around $1,200 in Y, but I am not sure. Jim C

Response:

Hi Best fare I could find would be $855 round trip – SEA-HANOI-SEA on the dates requested. Kind regards Susan Skinner ONLINE TRAVEL SERVICES "Your Best Travel Bargain Is A Great Travel Agent!"

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