Question:

To quote Howdy Doody ……. "Why? Because we like you!" Joely Its really from the Mickey Mouse Club quote …… There are so many of you snooping into my life … you should have realized by now that I have often lived outside of the USA for extended periods of time.

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

Happy Birthday! I hear Costa Rica is quite a beautiful place, by the way ….. There are so many of you snooping into my life … you should have realized by now that I have often lived outside of the USA for extended periods of time.

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

Re: Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays I’ll remember that next time I need to do procedure. If you do not want to get cancer we will just work blindly on your tooth, if we guess wrong oh well, can’t blame me for something I can’t see. I can see the guys doing an angioplasty without x-rays, lets shove that probe through the heart blindly oh well if we miss better than a chance at getting cancer from the x-rays

Response:

Grell? I had no idea ……. Sorry to hear of these complications ,,,,,,,,, of course I am just teasing you (in internet fashion)! Joely – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I heard you left the country to remain judgement-proof. Is that in error? Joely Absolutely in error … In fact, after 35 years of perfect credit …I now have a judgement against me by former Inamed President, Patrick O’leary. The Appeals Court was mandated to award him attorneys fees when they overturned my SLAPP victory against him, claiming that a coward hiding behind aliases to lie about me was not a believable source. By law, he got the judgement that was approximately $12K I believe. You are obviously quoting the correspondence between my attorney and Malicious Prosecutor "I didn’t intend to sue her" Chris Grell regarding Polevoy’s and my negotiations … (see the new ruling and what the Judges say about this … it’s actually comical) www.humanticsfoundation.com/quacklibelsuit.htm What that referred to was the fact that, in order to continue to do my work, I have sold all my properties, spent all of my savings and inheritance … with almost no income for 9 years) concurrently having a filthy Smear Campaign waged against me by Barrett’s Parrots and the silicone manufacturers. Since you are quoting from them … please let us all know why Grell reports: "Dr. Barrett informs me that all sources of his income are protected." Protected? Please find out what he thinks that means. Someone should also explain to Grell also what the latest ruling means since the information coming from his camp is inaccurate. There are so many of you snooping into my life … you should have realized by now that I have often lived outside of the USA for extended periods of time. Usually Barrett’s Team claims that I "fled" the US … seems to turn them on to think I’m a fugitive. I’ve been a Wandering Jewess since I graduated university 34 years ago … now enjoying life in Central America. Be nice now Joelly … it’s my birthday … AND it’s your buddy Probert’s one year birthday as "Aloysius X" … (please let him know how silly and transparent that stupid disguise is … it hurts the 3 plaintiffs images having them quote him on Polevoy’s website … not yet updated, strange that is) … www.humanticsfoundation.com/andysposse.htm

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

I heard you left the country to remain judgement-proof. Is that in error? Joely

Absolutely in error … In fact, after 35 years of perfect credit …I now have a judgement against me by former Inamed President, Patrick O’leary. The Appeals Court was mandated to award him attorneys fees when they overturned my SLAPP victory against him, claiming that a coward hiding behind aliases to lie about me was not a believable source. By law, he got the judgement that was approximately $12K I believe. You are obviously quoting the correspondence between my attorney and Malicious Prosecutor "I didn’t intend to sue her" Chris Grell regarding Polevoy’s and my negotiations … (see the new ruling and what the Judges say about this … it’s actually comical) www.humanticsfoundation.com/quacklibelsuit.htm What that referred to was the fact that, in order to continue to do my work, I have sold all my properties, spent all of my savings and inheritance … with almost no income for 9 years) concurrently having a filthy Smear Campaign waged against me by Barrett’s Parrots and the silicone manufacturers. Since you are quoting from them … please let us all know why Grell reports: "Dr. Barrett informs me that all sources of his income are protected." Protected? Please find out what he thinks that means. Someone should also explain to Grell also what the latest ruling means since the information coming from his camp is inaccurate. There are so many of you snooping into my life … you should have realized by now that I have often lived outside of the USA for extended periods of time. Usually Barrett’s Team claims that I "fled" the US … seems to turn them on to think I’m a fugitive. I’ve been a Wandering Jewess since I graduated university 34 years ago … now enjoying life in Central America. Be nice now Joelly … it’s my birthday … AND it’s your buddy Probert’s one year birthday as "Aloysius X" … (please let him know how silly and transparent that stupid disguise is … it hurts the 3 plaintiffs images having them quote him on Polevoy’s website … not yet updated, strange that is) … www.humanticsfoundation.com/andysposse.htm

Response:

Hello Joel, Goodbye Joel. Jan

Response:

Ilena Rose got slammed before for her tax-exempt organization that is heavy on collecting funds and very light on dispensing funds. I was wondering if she has another …… Joely More importantly, are there any tax-exempt organizations in San Diego where we can send contributions ……? I don’t know about that 4/15 is approaching – will they accept coupons? carabelli

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

Hi Orac, Then I guess Costa Rica has not arranged extradition yet! Joely Hi Ilena! Back from Costa Rica? Actually, from her NNTP Posting Host (which resolves to cce02.racsa.co.cr), it looks like she’s still there.

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

I heard you left the country to remain judgement-proof. Is that in error? Joely – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ilena! Back from Costa Rica? JOELY!!!!! Nope honey … I did totally beat your buddy Barrett and his Malicious Prosecutor Grell … both in Superior and the California Court of Appeals tho … wwww.humanticsfoundation.com/quacklibelsuit.htm Be a good boy now Joelly … Love, Ilena www.BreastImplantAwareness.org What did you think about the article I posted, Joelly?

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. So what you are saying is that 86% of my radiation exposure is "all natural"?  Is that good or bad?  I never know. It sounds like I should hide at the dentist’s office to avoid the cancer risk of my kitchen countertop. Clean out your ears. The sounds you are getting are mighty strange. If you want more and more x-rays, it’s your body, OMMV. You might try reading it again.

Hmmm, I did, but I still see it saying that 86% of my radiation exposure comes from natural sources.  Am I wrong? —

Response:

Hello Joel, Goodbye Joel.

Que?  Sorry, my name’s not "Joel".  It’s not even Jojo or Joe.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. So what you are saying is that 86% of my radiation exposure is "all natural"?  Is that good or bad?  I never know. It sounds like I should hide at the dentist’s office to avoid the cancer risk of my kitchen countertop. Clean out your ears. The sounds you are getting are mighty strange. If you want more and more x-rays, it’s your body, OMMV. You might try reading it again. Hmmm, I did, but I still see it saying that 86% of my radiation exposure comes from natural sources.  Am I wrong?

Nope. See: http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/pdf/ymp0337rev1.pdf http://www.nrc.gov/what-we-do/radiation/sources.html These cite approximately 81-85% of exposure as coming from natural sources and only 15% of radiation exposure as coming from medical sources. Of course, no doubt Jan will not believe these sources, as they are from the government, specifically the U.S. Department of Energy and the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission. For her: http://greennature.com/article272.html — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

Response:

Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor 30 January 2004

I didn’t realize it was that bad, HOWEVER this twice a year stuff is just a money maker. EVERYONE has the right to tell their dentists they only want x-rays. say once every two years. Jan Ignore David Wright, who will call names, as usual. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=486000 Radiation from X-rays in dentist surgeries and hospitals causes 700 people in Britain to develop cancer each year, researchers say today. Although medical X-rays help diagnose disease, they have long been known to cause a small increase in the risk of cancer because of the radiation they emit. X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. Researchers from Oxford University and Cancer Research UK estimated the size of the risk based on the number of X-rays carried out in Britain and in 14 other countries. According to their findings, published in the medical journal The Lancet, the results showed that X-rays accounted for six out of every 1,000 cases of cancer up to the age of 75, equivalent to 700 out of the 124,000 cases of cancer diagnosed each year. The calculations were based on the cancer rates among Japanese survivors of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the Second World War. The UK had a lower risk from medical X-rays than most of the other areas studied including Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany, Australia and Japan. In Japan 30 of every 1,000 cases of cancer are thought to caused by X-rays. In the UK, the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) has monitored the doses of radiation used in X-ray examinations for more than a decade. Advancing technology has halved the dose used in X-ray examinations since the early 1990s but the board found a 20-fold difference between the doses delivered in different hospitals in its latest review. Concern has focused on the growing use of Computed Tomography (CT) scans which take a series of X-ray pictures through the body and have revolutionised the diagnosis of cancer and other diseases. But according to the NRPB a single CT scan involves a dose of radiation up to 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray. Barry Wall, head of medical dosimetry at the NRPB, said: "CT scanning is expanding so rapidly. The images are so fantastic that not a lot of attention is being paid to the doses used." In a commentary on the findings, two German specialists in radiology said that the authors did not consider the benefits of X-rays in their study and offset those against the risks. "Benefits include the earlier detection of cancers by radiological examinations and the possibility of early treatment," they wrote. But they said up to 30 per cent of chest X-rays might not be necessary. They also said that unnecessary CT examinations could cause radiation exposure. "Those ordering radiological procedures should think carefully about the benefit for and the risk to their patients for each examination."   30 January 2004 14:20

Response:

Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks.

So what you are saying is that 86% of my radiation exposure is "all natural"?  Is that good or bad?  I never know. It sounds like I should hide at the dentist’s office to avoid the cancer risk of my kitchen countertop.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. So what you are saying is that 86% of my radiation exposure is "all natural"?  Is that good or bad?  I never know. It sounds like I should hide at the dentist’s office to avoid the cancer risk of my kitchen countertop.

Clean out your ears. The sounds you are getting are mighty strange. If you want more and more x-rays, it’s your body, OMMV. You might try reading it again. Jan Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor 30 January 2004 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=486000 Radiation from X-rays in dentist surgeries and hospitals causes 700 people in Britain to develop cancer each year, researchers say today. Although medical X-rays help diagnose disease, they have long been known to cause a small increase in the risk of cancer because of the radiation they emit. X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. Researchers from Oxford University and Cancer Research UK estimated the size of the risk based on the number of X-rays carried out in Britain and in 14 other countries. According to their findings, published in the medical journal The Lancet, the results showed that X-rays accounted for six out of every 1,000 cases of cancer up to the age of 75, equivalent to 700 out of the 124,000 cases of cancer diagnosed each year. The calculations were based on the cancer rates among Japanese survivors of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the Second World War. The UK had a lower risk from medical X-rays than most of the other areas studied including Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany, Australia and Japan. In Japan 30 of every 1,000 cases of cancer are thought to caused by X-rays. In the UK, the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) has monitored the doses of radiation used in X-ray examinations for more than a decade. Advancing technology has halved the dose used in X-ray examinations since the early 1990s but the board found a 20-fold difference between the doses delivered in different hospitals in its latest review. Concern has focused on the growing use of Computed Tomography (CT) scans which take a series of X-ray pictures through the body and have revolutionised the diagnosis of cancer and other diseases. But according to the NRPB a single CT scan involves a dose of radiation up to 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray. Barry Wall, head of medical dosimetry at the NRPB, said: "CT scanning is expanding so rapidly. The images are so fantastic that not a lot of attention is being paid to the doses used." In a commentary on the findings, two German specialists in radiology said that the authors did not consider the benefits of X-rays in their study and offset those against the risks. "Benefits include the earlier detection of cancers by radiological examinations and the possibility of early treatment," they wrote. But they said up to 30 per cent of chest X-rays might not be necessary. They also said that unnecessary CT examinations could cause radiation exposure. "Those ordering radiological procedures should think carefully about the benefit for and the risk to their patients for each examination."    30 January 2004 14:20

Response:

Hi Ilena! Back from Costa Rica?

Actually, from her NNTP Posting Host (which resolves to cce02.racsa.co.cr), it looks like she’s still there. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

Response:

Hi Ilena! Back from Costa Rica? JOELY!!!!!

Nope honey … I did totally beat your buddy Barrett and his Malicious Prosecutor Grell … both in Superior and the California Court of Appeals tho … wwww.humanticsfoundation.com/quacklibelsuit.htm Be a good boy now Joelly … Love, Ilena www.BreastImplantAwareness.org What did you think about the article I posted, Joelly?

Response:

Hi Ilena! Back from Costa Rica? JOELY!!!!! Nope honey … I did totally beat your buddy Barrett and his Malicious Prosecutor Grell … both in Superior and the California Court of Appeals tho …

California Courts are a little bit looney.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor 30 January 2004 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=486000 Radiation from X-rays in dentist surgeries and hospitals causes 700 people in Britain to develop cancer each year, researchers say today. Although medical X-rays help diagnose disease, they have long been known to cause a small increase in the risk of cancer because of the radiation they emit. X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. Researchers from Oxford University and Cancer Research UK estimated the size of the risk based on the number of X-rays carried out in Britain and in 14 other countries. According to their finding published in the medical journal The Lancet, the results showed that X-rays accounted for six out of every 1,000 cases of cancer up to the age of 75, equivalent to 700 out of the 124,000 cases of cancer diagnosed each year. The calculations were based on the cancer rates among Japanese survivors of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the Second World War.

EOM continuing its never-ending process of self-evaluation.  Good for them!!  I don’t like the number of  assumptions being made here and I am sure the original article would have contained numerous caveats.   For example we don’t know that there is a linear association between radiation dosage and cancer, different tissues display different sensitivity, and isotopes absorbed following atomic explosions will be absorbed and have specific carcinogenic actions on organs such as the thyroid and bone. Still, it is wise for doctors to only order xrays when the information will significantly change treatment. The only connection that I can see to alternative medicine is that it is possible in both the USA and Russia to go and sit in radioactive mines ‘for your health’, and people are convinced it does wonders for them: numerous testimonials ( surprise!  surprise!) Peter Moran – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The UK had a lower risk from medical X-rays than most of the other areas studied including Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany, Australia and Japan. In Japan 30 of every 1,000 cases of cancer are thought to caused by X-rays. In the UK, the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) has monitored the doses of radiation used in X-ray examinations for more than a decade. Advancing technology has halved the dose used in X-ray examinations since the early 1990s but the board found a 20-fold difference between the doses delivered in different hospitals in its latest review. Concern has focused on the growing use of Computed Tomography (CT) scans which take a series of X-ray pictures through the body and have revolutionised the diagnosis of cancer and other diseases. But according to the NRPB a single CT scan involves a dose of radiation up to 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray. Barry Wall, head of medical dosimetry at the NRPB, said: "CT scanning is expanding so rapidly. The images are so fantastic that not a lot of attention is being paid to the doses used." In a commentary on the findings, two German specialists in radiology said that the authors did not consider the benefits of X-rays in their study and offset those against the risks. "Benefits include the earlier detection of cancers by radiological examinations and the possibility of early treatment," they wrote. But they said up to 30 per cent of chest X-rays might not be necessary. They also said that unnecessary CT examinations could cause radiation exposure. "Those ordering radiological procedures should think carefully about the benefit for and the risk to their patients for each examination."    30 January 2004 14:20

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor 30 January 2004 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=486000 Radiation from X-rays in dentist surgeries and hospitals causes 700 people in Britain to develop cancer each year, researchers say today. Although medical X-rays help diagnose disease, they have long been known to cause a small increase in the risk of cancer because of the radiation they emit. X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. Researchers from Oxford University and Cancer Research UK estimated the size of the risk based on the number of X-rays carried out in Britain and in 14 other countries. According to their finding published in the medical journal The Lancet, the results showed that X-rays accounted for six out of every 1,000 cases of cancer up to the age of 75, equivalent to 700 out of the 124,000 cases of cancer diagnosed each year. The calculations were based on the cancer rates among Japanese survivors of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the Second World War. EOM continuing its never-ending process of self-evaluation.  Good for them!!

YEAH!!! THIS NEVER ENDING SELF-EVALUATION,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,has finally been FORCED to take a second look. Where were all the wonderful EOM dentists who did this x-raying twice a year, and KNEW it was not necessary??? Let’s all give them a hand!!!!!! <snip The only connection that I can see to alternative medicine

ZZzz. X-rays causing cancer and the over use of them is appropriate for ANY HEALTH NEWSGROUP. That buzz expression and excuse falls flat. Where was this *never-ending* process of self elevation when Jesse Gelsinger DIED, and the doctor remains on staff??? Do show us this never ending process, and how it has improved things. Can’t? That’s what I though, so all can chalk up this statement from Peter Moran as a LIE!!! Now we can all throw a party that EOM has been forced and backed into a corner, but don’t tell, we’ll celebrate it as they have made a great discovery. One that should have been made some 50 years ago. Poor poor pathetic, Peter Moran. Jan

Response:

More importantly, are there any tax-exempt organizations in San Diego where we can send contributions ……?

I don’t know about that 4/15 is approaching – will they accept coupons? carabelli

Response:

Take the time to subscribe and read the original article. You will also then be able to read a commentary by Peter Herzog and Christina T Rieger. Or if you wish you can continue to subscribe to your little e-mail service and rely on their reviews. carabelli

Response:

Hi Ilena! Back from Costa Rica? JOELY!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor 30 January 2004 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=486000 Radiation from X-rays in dentist surgeries and hospitals causes 700 people in Britain to develop cancer each year, researchers say today. Although medical X-rays help diagnose disease, they have long been known to cause a small increase in the risk of cancer because of the radiation they emit. X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. Researchers from Oxford University and Cancer Research UK estimated the size of the risk based on the number of X-rays carried out in Britain and in 14 other countries. According to their findings, published in the medical journal The Lancet, the results showed that X-rays accounted for six out of every 1,000 cases of cancer up to the age of 75, equivalent to 700 out of the 124,000 cases of cancer diagnosed each year. The calculations were based on the cancer rates among Japanese survivors of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the Second World War. The UK had a lower risk from medical X-rays than most of the other areas studied including Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany, Australia and Japan. In Japan 30 of every 1,000 cases of cancer are thought to caused by X-rays. In the UK, the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) has monitored the doses of radiation used in X-ray examinations for more than a decade. Advancing technology has halved the dose used in X-ray examinations since the early 1990s but the board found a 20-fold difference between the doses delivered in different hospitals in its latest review. Concern has focused on the growing use of Computed Tomography (CT) scans which take a series of X-ray pictures through the body and have revolutionised the diagnosis of cancer and other diseases. But according to the NRPB a single CT scan involves a dose of radiation up to 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray. Barry Wall, head of medical dosimetry at the NRPB, said: "CT scanning is expanding so rapidly. The images are so fantastic that not a lot of attention is being paid to the doses used." In a commentary on the findings, two German specialists in radiology said that the authors did not consider the benefits of X-rays in their study and offset those against the risks. "Benefits include the earlier detection of cancers by radiological examinations and the possibility of early treatment," they wrote. But they said up to 30 per cent of chest X-rays might not be necessary. They also said that unnecessary CT examinations could cause radiation exposure. "Those ordering radiological procedures should think carefully about the benefit for and the risk to their patients for each examination."   30 January 2004 14:20

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

More importantly, are there any tax-exempt organizations in San Diego where we can send contributions ……? JOELY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Take the time to subscribe and read the original article. You will also then be able to read a commentary by Peter Herzog and Christina T Rieger. Or if you wish you can continue to subscribe to your little e-mail service and rely on their reviews. carabelli

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient’s dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Response:

Hundreds of cancer cases blamed on dentist x-rays By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor 30 January 2004 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=486000 Radiation from X-rays in dentist surgeries and hospitals causes 700 people in Britain to develop cancer each year, researchers say today. Although medical X-rays help diagnose disease, they have long been known to cause a small increase in the risk of cancer because of the radiation they emit. X-rays are the largest man-made source of radiation to which the public is exposed, accounting for 14 per cent. Atomic testing and discharges from nuclear power stations account for a fraction of that figure, and most of the rest is natural radiation such as radon from granite rocks. Researchers from Oxford University and Cancer Research UK estimated the size of the risk based on the number of X-rays carried out in Britain and in 14 other countries. According to their findings, published in the medical journal The Lancet, the results showed that X-rays accounted for six out of every 1,000 cases of cancer up to the age of 75, equivalent to 700 out of the 124,000 cases of cancer diagnosed each year. The calculations were based on the cancer rates among Japanese survivors of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the Second World War. The UK had a lower risk from medical X-rays than most of the other areas studied including Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany, Australia and Japan. In Japan 30 of every 1,000 cases of cancer are thought to caused by X-rays. In the UK, the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) has monitored the doses of radiation used in X-ray examinations for more than a decade. Advancing technology has halved the dose used in X-ray examinations since the early 1990s but the board found a 20-fold difference between the doses delivered in different hospitals in its latest review. Concern has focused on the growing use of Computed Tomography (CT) scans which take a series of X-ray pictures through the body and have revolutionised the diagnosis of cancer and other diseases. But according to the NRPB a single CT scan involves a dose of radiation up to 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray. Barry Wall, head of medical dosimetry at the NRPB, said: "CT scanning is expanding so rapidly. The images are so fantastic that not a lot of attention is being paid to the doses used." In a commentary on the findings, two German specialists in radiology said that the authors did not consider the benefits of X-rays in their study and offset those against the risks. "Benefits include the earlier detection of cancers by radiological examinations and the possibility of early treatment," they wrote. But they said up to 30 per cent of chest X-rays might not be necessary. They also said that unnecessary CT examinations could cause radiation exposure. "Those ordering radiological procedures should think carefully about the benefit for and the risk to their patients for each examination."    30 January 2004 14:20

Response:

Question:

Good joke. Bill S. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Staff Notice With immediate effect, a toilet policy will be established to provide a more consistent method of accounting for staff, ensuring effective time management and equal treatment for all. On the first day of every month, all staff will be issued 20 toilet trip credits which may be accumulated. The doors to all toilets will be equipped with computer-linked voice recognition devices. Staff must immediately provide management with two voiceprints, one normal and one under stress. Once the employee’s toilet trip bank reaches zero, the doors of the toilet will not unlock for the employee’s voice until the first of the month. In addition, all cubicles are to be equipped with timed paper-roll extractors. If the toilet is occupied for more than three minutes, an alarm will sound. Thirty seconds later, the roll of toilet paper will retract into the dispenser, the toilet will flush and the door will open automatically. If the toilet remains occupied, your photograph will be taken by a security camera and will appear on the Toilet Offenders Board. Anyone appearing three times will forfeit three months’ toilet trip credits. Anyone caught smiling when the photograph is taken will undergo counseling by a clinical psychologist. Be advised that workmen’s compensation insurance does not cover any injuries incurred while trying to stop the toilet paper retracting into The dispenser. MANAGEMENT

Response:

Staff Notice With immediate effect, a toilet policy will be established to provide a more consistent method of accounting for staff, ensuring effective time management and equal treatment for all. On the first day of every month, all staff will be issued 20 toilet trip credits which may be accumulated. The doors to all toilets will be equipped with computer-linked voice recognition devices. Staff must immediately provide management with two voiceprints, one normal and one under stress. Once the employee’s toilet trip bank reaches zero, the doors of the toilet will not unlock for the employee’s voice until the first of the month. In addition, all cubicles are to be equipped with timed paper-roll extractors. If the toilet is occupied for more than three minutes, an alarm will sound. Thirty seconds later, the roll of toilet paper will retract into the dispenser, the toilet will flush and the door will open automatically. If the toilet remains occupied, your photograph will be taken by a security camera and will appear on the Toilet Offenders Board. Anyone appearing three times will forfeit three months’ toilet trip credits. Anyone caught smiling when the photograph is taken will undergo counseling by a clinical psychologist. Be advised that workmen’s compensation insurance does not cover any injuries incurred while trying to stop the toilet paper retracting into The dispenser. MANAGEMENT

Response:

Staff Notice With immediate effect, a toilet policy will be established to provide a more consistent method of accounting for staff, ensuring effective time management and equal treatment for all. On the first day of every month, all staff will be issued 20 toilet trip credits which may be accumulated. The doors to all toilets will be equipped with computer-linked voice recognition devices. Staff must immediately provide management with two voiceprints, one normal and one under stress. Once the employee’s toilet trip bank reaches zero, the doors of the toilet will not unlock for the employee’s voice until the first of the month. In addition, all cubicles are to be equipped with timed paper-roll extractors. If the toilet is occupied for more than three minutes, an alarm will sound. Thirty seconds later, the roll of toilet paper will retract into the dispenser, the toilet will flush and the door will open automatically. If the toilet remains occupied, your photograph will be taken by a security camera and will appear on the Toilet Offenders Board. Anyone appearing three times will forfeit three months’ toilet trip credits. Anyone caught smiling when the photograph is taken will undergo counseling by a clinical psychologist. Be advised that workmen’s compensation insurance does not cover any injuries incurred while trying to stop the toilet paper retracting into The dispenser. MANAGEMENT

Response:

Good joke. Bill S. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Staff Notice With immediate effect, a toilet policy will be established to provide a more consistent method of accounting for staff, ensuring effective time management and equal treatment for all. On the first day of every month, all staff will be issued 20 toilet trip credits which may be accumulated. The doors to all toilets will be equipped with computer-linked voice recognition devices. Staff must immediately provide management with two voiceprints, one normal and one under stress. Once the employee’s toilet trip bank reaches zero, the doors of the toilet will not unlock for the employee’s voice until the first of the month. In addition, all cubicles are to be equipped with timed paper-roll extractors. If the toilet is occupied for more than three minutes, an alarm will sound. Thirty seconds later, the roll of toilet paper will retract into the dispenser, the toilet will flush and the door will open automatically. If the toilet remains occupied, your photograph will be taken by a security camera and will appear on the Toilet Offenders Board. Anyone appearing three times will forfeit three months’ toilet trip credits. Anyone caught smiling when the photograph is taken will undergo counseling by a clinical psychologist. Be advised that workmen’s compensation insurance does not cover any injuries incurred while trying to stop the toilet paper retracting into The dispenser. MANAGEMENT

Response:

Question:

Paul: There seem to be some "issues"  (to use the euphemisms of the day for downright sloppy products and problems foisted on the uservictim) with version 9.0 of Simply. They have some fixes and a patch that should be available soon. I have advised all of my clients to stick with version 8.5d for as long as they can. There should be no need to "upgrade" until the July 2002 payroll update. It is sad to see a great product come to this. It is no longer Simple and the quality remains to be seen. It seems the new owners are more interested in dumbing it down and loading it up to compete with "Quick" stuff and MYOB. Market share over quality and function.

| Hello all! | | My payroll setup for our company deducts the 2.2% for the employees, | then uses a multiplier of 2.2 for the company’s portion. It is, of | course, supposed to be 1.4.  The setting in the Settings Window saya | 1.4, but the program seems to be ignoring this setting, having a mind if | its own. | Hopefully, this is just me having some sort of brain seizure. Can anyone | throw any light on this? | | Thanks | | Paul King | Amaranth Stoneware Ltd. | Kingston, ON, Canada |

Response:

Thanks, John (& Laurie!): See you there! Paul King Amaranth Stoneware Ltd. Kingston, ON – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul: Try this mostly Canadian Simply Accounting Users group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/simply-accounting Good luck, John.- Hello all! My payroll setup for our company deducts the 2.2% for the employees, then uses a multiplier of 2.2 for the company’s portion. It is, of course, supposed to be 1.4.  The setting in the Settings Window saya 1.4, but the program seems to be ignoring this setting, having a mind if its own. Hopefully, this is just me having some sort of brain seizure. Can anyone throw any light on this? Thanks Paul King Amaranth Stoneware Ltd. Kingston, ON, Canada

Response:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I beg your pardon?    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Timo’s  FAQ  materials  at   http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html

Response:

Hello all! My payroll setup for our company deducts the 2.2% for the employees, then uses a multiplier of 2.2 for the company’s portion. It is, of course, supposed to be 1.4.  The setting in the Settings Window saya 1.4, but the program seems to be ignoring this setting, having a mind if its own. Hopefully, this is just me having some sort of brain seizure. Can anyone throw any light on this? Thanks Paul King Amaranth Stoneware Ltd. Kingston, ON, Canada

Response:

Paul: Try this mostly Canadian Simply Accounting Users group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/simply-accounting Good luck, John.-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all! My payroll setup for our company deducts the 2.2% for the employees, then uses a multiplier of 2.2 for the company’s portion. It is, of course, supposed to be 1.4.  The setting in the Settings Window saya 1.4, but the program seems to be ignoring this setting, having a mind if its own. Hopefully, this is just me having some sort of brain seizure. Can anyone throw any light on this? Thanks Paul King Amaranth Stoneware Ltd. Kingston, ON, Canada

Response:

Hi, For contact with lots of other Simply Accounting Users and Certified Consultants… why not check out the Simply Accounting Users Group. It’s FREE! Sure saved me some money rather than using the pay for info service. For more info, send a blank email to: Lorie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello all! My payroll setup for our company deducts the 2.2% for the employees, then uses a multiplier of 2.2 for the company’s portion. It is, of course, supposed to be 1.4.  The setting in the Settings Window saya 1.4, but the program seems to be ignoring this setting, having a mind if its own. Hopefully, this is just me having some sort of brain seizure. Can anyone throw any light on this? Thanks Paul King Amaranth Stoneware Ltd. Kingston, ON, Canada

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -dsull…@optonline.net (Dan Sullivan) wrote in message <news:f9e1b700.0201141540.7c45219e@posting.google.com>… > "Ron" <APositivePl…@netscape.net> wrote in message <news:AkD08.224289$kf1.65192883@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>… > > Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people > > "donated" their time, energy, and resources? > > As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you > > will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out > > of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less > > $7,000,000,000. > > A dose of reality for you Fern. > > Ron > Hey Ron, > I’ve got an $800 hammer if you need one. > I think toilet seats are about half of that, or are they TWICE that? > Just because the Gov knows where the money goes and who gets it > DOESN’T mean it’s well spent. > You don’t disagree with that do you? > Dan

Fern threw in a Red Herring to divert…that should be Fern’s middle name. As for the subject, the family unit attempts, that and things like it are what got Jen back on track to her kids coming home. I’d say that’s money well spent. Fight the bad CPS does, not the good. Bingo, bango, bongo. Stoneman

Response:

"Dan Sullivan" <dsull…@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:f9e1b700.0201141540.7c45219e@posting.google.com… > "Ron" <APositivePl…@netscape.net> wrote in message

<news:AkD08.224289$kf1.65192883@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people > > "donated" their time, energy, and resources? > > As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you > > will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out > > of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less > > $7,000,000,000. > > A dose of reality for you Fern. > > Ron > Hey Ron, > I’ve got an $800 hammer if you need one. > I think toilet seats are about half of that, or are they TWICE that? > Just because the Gov knows where the money goes and who gets it > DOESN’T mean it’s well spent. > You don’t disagree with that do you? > Dan

Having used some of those $800 hammers, no I would not disagree.  Much of what our government spends its (our) money on I find questionable, but there is no question that they know where they have spent it.  And that is all a audit is designed to do, keep track of where it goes and that it goes to the places that they say they are spending it. So, why is Fern’s so concerned or happy about an audit?  The government has always know where its HHS money is going.  One thing an audit will do though, it will once again prove kneal wrong about HHS workers all pocketing significant portions of it. Ron

Response:

Well, Ron, if you dispute my figures on the 7 BILLION. you dispute NPR’s audio files. Http://www.npr.org Guess you believe Andersen Accounting statements looked over by the SEC. Lots of potential for fraud in Foster Care. Http://www.donttakeourkids.com (Midwest site for restructuring CPS.DSS, DHS.DSHS.DHHS.FCB, TDPRS,CPSS,DCFS,DFCS,DCAFS,CPA,CFS,FCB,CAS,ACS,DSHS,DSS,DHHS,HHS,HHS,DFS,D CF,DCS,DYFS,DFYS,FIA,ABUSE, NEGLECT,CAPTA, WHITE COLLAR CRIME, CSB,FCB,CPPS,CPS, CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES, SRS,SCF,DCYF,DCYS,CYS,CYF

Response:

"Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20020115165025.13589.00002692@mb-fo.aol.com… > Well, Ron, if you dispute my figures on the 7 BILLION. you dispute NPR’s audio > files. > Http://www.npr.org > Guess you believe Andersen Accounting statements looked over by the SEC. > Lots of potential for fraud in Foster Care.

I don’t dispute your 7 billion madam, I dispute your idea that it is misused or stolen.  Something for which there you have presented no evidence, no precedent, and indeed given it very little thought.  But that is no more or less than I have come to expect.  I posted the budget figures remember?  I would think that I had read them. There is potential for fraud in everything madam, I know, I am a manager in a fraud prevention unit.  With that being a given, one must also know that far less than 1% of the losses experienced are due to fraud.  In the world I work in, about 1% of the transaction we see are suspected of fraud, and of that less than 5% is actual fraud.  And it still amounts to several billion annually.  That is in every general class of business endeavor madam.  It is the price of doing business in this world, and one of the reasons we have laws forbidding it.  The laws don’t stop it, but do give us a means of addressing the issue. Is there fraud in HS?  Yes.  A given.  Is it an issue?  Yes, also a given. Is it anywhere near significant, absolutely not.  Your supposition is false on its face, and born of ignorance of more facts than can be committed to a post in Usenet. Do you believe that everyone that reads these posts is going to accept your innuendo’s and unsupported claims?  A moments thought is all that it takes to get past your lack of logic and see the truth.  And for that 1% out there that cannot get there on their own, there are many individuals like myself who can show them the path.  Just like I have shown you, but you have refused over and over again.  Your loss madam, and no skin of my nose.  I will continue to present the facts here for those that are unable to find them, and allow them to draw their own conclusions, instead of following you and the other guides into ignorance. Ron

Response:

"Ron" <APositivePl…@netscape.net> wrote in message <news:AkD08.224289$kf1.65192883@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>… > Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people > "donated" their time, energy, and resources? > As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you > will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out > of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less > $7,000,000,000. > A dose of reality for you Fern. > Ron

Hey Ron, I’ve got an $800 hammer if you need one. I think toilet seats are about half of that, or are they TWICE that? Just because the Gov knows where the money goes and who gets it DOESN’T mean it’s well spent. You don’t disagree with that do you? Dan

Response:

Family Preservation and Family Support Family Preservation and Family Support Services grants focus on strengthening families, preventing abuse, and protecting children. These grants help state child welfare agencies and Indian tribes operate preventive family preservation services and community-based family support services for families at risk or in crisis. Family Support Services, often provided at the local level by community-based organizations, are voluntary, preventive activities to help families nurture their children. They include respite care for parents and caregivers, early developmental screening of children to identify their needs, tutoring, health education for youth, and a range of center-based activities. Family Preservation Services typically are activities that help families alleviate crises that might lead to out-of-home placements of children because of abuse, neglect, or parental inability to care for their children. Funding for Family Preservation and Family Support Services is $295 million in FY 2000. For FY 2001, the Administration requests $305 million for these services. http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/facts/major.html Ron

Response:

"Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20020114100325.08620.00002326@mb-ch.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Foster care in 2001 has 7 BILLION dollars. > All UNAUDITED. till 2001. > Ron sent in: > >Date: 1/12/2002 2:10 PM Eastern Standard Time > >Message-id: <dcee120b.0201121110.7ce6f…@posting.google.com> > >Family Preservation and Family Support > >Family Preservation and Family Support Services grants focus on > >strengthening families, preventing abuse, and protecting children. > >These grants help state child welfare agencies and Indian tribes > >operate preventive family preservation services and community-based > >family support services for families at risk or in crisis. > >Family Support Services, often provided at the local level by > >community-based organizations, are voluntary, preventive activities to > >help families nurture their children. They include respite care for > >parents and caregivers, early developmental screening of children to > >identify their needs, tutoring, health education for youth, and a > >range of center-based activities. Family Preservation Services > >typically are activities that help families alleviate crises that > >might lead to out-of-home placements of children because of abuse, > >neglect, or parental inability to care for their children. Funding for > >Family Preservation and Family Support Services is $295 million in FY > >2000. For FY 2001, the Administration requests $305 million for these > >services. > >http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/facts/major.html > >Ron

Did you think that all of this came without a cost?  That all these people "donated" their time, energy, and resources? As for audits, you might want to check with the GAO on that.  I think you will find that your quite wrong.  The U.S. Government doesn’t let $50.00 out of their sight unless they know to whom and where it is going, much less $7,000,000,000. A dose of reality for you Fern. Ron

Response:

Foster care in 2001 has 7 BILLION dollars. All UNAUDITED. till 2001. Ron sent in: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Date: 1/12/2002 2:10 PM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <dcee120b.0201121110.7ce6f…@posting.google.com> >Family Preservation and Family Support >Family Preservation and Family Support Services grants focus on >strengthening families, preventing abuse, and protecting children. >These grants help state child welfare agencies and Indian tribes >operate preventive family preservation services and community-based >family support services for families at risk or in crisis. >Family Support Services, often provided at the local level by >community-based organizations, are voluntary, preventive activities to >help families nurture their children. They include respite care for >parents and caregivers, early developmental screening of children to >identify their needs, tutoring, health education for youth, and a >range of center-based activities. Family Preservation Services >typically are activities that help families alleviate crises that >might lead to out-of-home placements of children because of abuse, >neglect, or parental inability to care for their children. Funding for >Family Preservation and Family Support Services is $295 million in FY >2000. For FY 2001, the Administration requests $305 million for these >services. >http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/facts/major.html >Ron

Http://www.hope4kidz.org (TX site seeking to reform TDPRS) DESCRIPTORS; DHS,DHR,FCS,DFS,DPSS,CFS,DCAFS,DXB,CPA,DFACS,DCS,DCF,DSS,DHHS,HHS,FIA,ACS, CAS,SRS,SCF,DYFS,DFYS,DCS,DCS,CFS,DCFS,DFCS,DCYF,DCYS,ABUSE, NEGLECT, ABUSE, CAPTA,TROXEL,DSHS,FCB.

Response:

Question:

Thanks for your responses. The estate issues have been resolved, one check going into the estate trust bank account and any questionable items packed up for future resolution by the estate. The brother, my friend, is the executor of the estate and has been reluctant to settle the estate while his sister was living in the house. He will be with us as we go through the house. Regards, Vicky

Response:

Thanks for your responses. The estate issues have been resolved, one check going into the estate trust bank account and any questionable items packed up for future resolution by the estate. The brother, my friend, is the executor of the estate and has been reluctant to settle the estate while his sister was living in the house. He will be with us as we go through the house. Regards, Vicky

RUN away from this as quickly as you possibly can. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

Vicky:         What Richard Ward said in his post? At least "ditto". If the estate is in probate and the executor is a family member (who may also inherit), in some states, there won’t an attorney but the executor or "personal representative" will have some documentation. Be nice about it but please be sure that the stuff is theirs to dispense, in the first place (good intentions do not count) and that all interested parties have complete inventories with descriptions of items passed into your possession. — Derald Martin

Response:

I have been asked to help a friend go through their parents home out of town and then sell the items of value. I haven’t seen the place, but from what I understand it is chock full. I know you have discussed the commission issue here before, but since it didn’t apply to me I didn’t pay much attention. I’ve seen flat rates and percentages. What do you recommend? Thank you, Vicky Born

50% commision over and above a $90 per item placement fee, minimum. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I have been asked to help a friend go through their parents home out of town and then sell the items of value. I haven’t seen the place, but from what I understand it is chock full. I know you have discussed the commission issue here before, but since it didn’t apply to me I didn’t pay much attention. I’ve seen flat rates and percentages. What do you recommend? It is also an awkward situation. The parents passed away years ago, one sister has lived in the house for several years. There is a brother (who got us invoved) and is well off financially and another sister who is rather hard up and could really use the money from the estate. Keeping an accurate accounting of the items will not be a problem, but what to do about the proceeds? It will take a while to get everything listed and shipped. Should we make progress payments, monthly? Or wait until everything is sold? Do we issue a check to one person or checks to each child? There are also items that the brother would like to keep in the family. Should he buy them from the estate? This is what I have done in the past with my grandmother and aunt when they were getting rid of some things to avoid problems with other family members. There seems to be a lot of common sense in this newgroup and I would value your opinions. Thank you, Vicky Born

Response:

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Vicky Born I have been asked to help a friend go through their parents home out of town and then sell the items of value. I haven’t seen the place, but from what I understand it is chock full.

Others will have percentages and commission fees for you, so I won’t suggest that.  What I would STRONGLY urge, however, is that you refuse to sell ANYTHING (and I repeat, ANYTHING) that they will not let you take physical possession of beforehand.  The reasoning behind this is simple:  If you don’t have physical possession of the item and the family doesn’t like the final price on the auction, they can refuse to give it to you and you’re the one who’s out–you’re out listing fees, you’re out FVFs, and you’re the one who’ll end up taking the negative feedback hit.  Unless you have the item for sale in your hands and in your possession, don’t list it. And whatever you do, GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING.  This is a business arrangement and should be treated like such. http://members.aol.com/kimmurphy/

Response:

Thanks Kimberly. We will bring home what we plan to sell. If an item is not in hand, I would not be able to accurately describe or answer questions about it. I had not considered preconceived values or of issuing estimates before listing items other than for items to be kept. I have considered doing a complete inventory, circulating it among the three children and giving an appraisal value only on those items they want to keep and let them determine the fair sales price to the estate if necessary. I would think they already know what they would like to have. This is the only was I know be diplomatic and to avoid conflict. Hopefully this will all be settled before I get there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Vicky Born I have been asked to help a friend go through their parents home out of town and then sell the items of value. I haven’t seen the place, but from what I understand it is chock full. Others will have percentages and commission fees for you, so I won’t suggest that.  What I would STRONGLY urge, however, is that you refuse to sell ANYTHING (and I repeat, ANYTHING) that they will not let you take physical possession of beforehand.  The reasoning behind this is simple:  If you don’t have physical possession of the item and the family doesn’t like the final price on the auction, they can refuse to give it to you and you’re the one who’s out–you’re out listing fees, you’re out FVFs, and you’re the one who’ll end up taking the negative feedback hit.  Unless you have the item for sale in your hands and in your possession, don’t list it. And whatever you do, GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING.  This is a business arrangement and should be treated like such. http://members.aol.com/kimmurphy/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked to help a friend go through their parents home out of town and then sell the items of value. I haven’t seen the place, but from what I understand it is chock full. I know you have discussed the commission issue here before, but since it didn’t apply to me I didn’t pay much attention. I’ve seen flat rates and percentages. What do you recommend? It is also an awkward situation. The parents passed away years ago, one sister has lived in the house for several years. There is a brother (who got us invoved) and is well off financially and another sister who is rather hard up and could really use the money from the estate. Keeping an accurate accounting of the items will not be a problem, but what to do about the proceeds? It will take a while to get everything listed and shipped. Should we make progress payments, monthly? Or wait until everything is sold? Do we issue a check to one person or checks to each child? There are also items that the brother would like to keep in the family. Should he buy them from the estate? This is what I have done in the past with my grandmother and aunt when they were getting rid of some things to avoid problems with other family members. There seems to be a lot of common sense in this newgroup and I would value your opinions. Thank you, Vicky Born

I think you should try a safer method.  Go to the house, find the nearest hornet’s nest, and start chunking stones at it.  This is certain to cause you less problems than getting involved in this in any other way.  You can’t deal with the children, you have to deal with the estate, which means dealing with the executor.  Any deal you have should be in writing with the executor, and depending on the state, you may need to have a letter testementary from the probate court attached to the agreement. The executor may be one of the children, but it doesn’t have to be.  How the brother is handled isn’t your problem, it’s the problem of the executor.  You shouldn’t be involved until all of this is worked out, leaving you with a pile of merchandise to sell. I have a simple rule.  I don’t sell for friends or family.  I can always get more merchandise, friends and family are much harder to come by. Richard Ward

Response:

Question:

I think at the low price end of things, both MYOB and Simply Acctg. have the ability to create and cost assemblies.  The new DacEasy 10 also has this feature. FWIW     Peter

Response:

Hi – I downloaded the MYOB and Simply Accounting trial versions – MYOB didn’t have this feature in the trial version – it may be available as part of the whole package – I don’t know. Simply accounting does have cost accounting, but I’ll be darned if I could figure out how to use it! Of course, the trial version didn’t come with a manual – so that may make all the difference in the world. It did look like it would do what I wanted it to do – with the proper setup of accounts, etc. It’s on my short list of products to take a closer look at. I still want to look at Accpac for windows, as was suggested by Allan, and I’m going to try and set up QuickBooks as John James suggested, to try and incorporate the features I need into what I’m already using. I want to thank everyone who responded for their suggestions. I really appreciate it, as I was really at my wits end looking for something that would work. I really didn’t think it would be such a time consuming and fruitless search! I didn’t think my needs were anything out of the ordinary! But it really is difficult to find a good cost accounting program. I think I should go back to that Access program and put some real time and effort into it – it might be a real marketable product! Thanks again, Kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think at the low price end of things, both MYOB and Simply Acctg. have the ability to create and cost assemblies.  The new DacEasy 10 also has this feature. FWIW     Peter

Response:

Simply accounting cost module. Set up the module with the cost centres (jobs) It only works for accounts in Income or Expense. (Hence the need for contra expense account to place the "inventory item" in assets) i.e. Repair job 1 Repair job 2 etc or in assembly Gizmo Thingy etc. You do not need Gizmo Materials Gizmo labour etc because the cost print out lists Gizmo Materials labour etc. When you post an item to income or expense the cost module pops up and the post is allocate to the cost centre(s). ie. Labour          $3,500 Allocation           Gizmo  $2,500                           Thingy    $500           Direct Overhead     $500 The Labour costs are the overtime premium costs that we apply to Direct Overhead instead of to the one run of Gizmos.  We feel that to apply this to Gizmo’s is incorret because the overtime was needed to meet the Widget demand and should be allocated to all Widgets in the period.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi – I downloaded the MYOB and Simply Accounting trial versions – MYOB didn’t have this feature in the trial version – it may be available as part of the whole package – I don’t know. Simply accounting does have cost accounting, but I’ll be darned if I could figure out how to use it! Of course, the trial version didn’t come with a manual – so that may make all the difference in the world. It did look like it would do what I wanted it to do – with the proper setup of accounts, etc. It’s on my short list of products to take a closer look at. I still want to look at Accpac for windows, as was suggested by Allan, and I’m going to try and set up QuickBooks as John James suggested, to try and incorporate the features I need into what I’m already using. I want to thank everyone who responded for their suggestions. I really appreciate it, as I was really at my wits end looking for something that would work. I really didn’t think it would be such a time consuming and fruitless search! I didn’t think my needs were anything out of the ordinary! But it really is difficult to find a good cost accounting program. I think I should go back to that Access program and put some real time and effort into it – it might be a real marketable product! Thanks again, Kim I think at the low price end of things, both MYOB and Simply Acctg. have the ability to create and cost assemblies.  The new DacEasy 10 also has this feature. FWIW     Peter

Response:

Kim, If you want true job cost accounting software with fully integrated general ledger, payroll, accounts receivable, accounts payable, and you can afford $25, go go  www.a-systems.net and click on "starter" for details. There is no better product for job cost accounting than what is described there. Arnold – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi – I need an accounting program which will allow me to accurately track the *cost* of my products. Any suggestions? Currently I am using QuickBooks 5 – which doesn’t seem to be able to do this. I considered upgrading to the newer version – but apparently the newer version can’t handle it, either. Here’s the story: I make widgets – one widget consists of a gizmo, a gadget and a thingy – which all cost various prices. Now – my completed widget will consume one (or more) gizmo’s, gadgets and thingy’s. I need to know exactly what the widget cost me to make – and what my profit is depending on the sale price. I tried to make a custom program in Access – but that was too time consuming. There *has* to be a program out there that will work for me! Any suggestions? Thanks so much, Kim — Kim www.vtgenealogy.com *Behind every successful man is a surprised mother in law*

Response:

Hi – I need an accounting program which will allow me to accurately track the *cost* of my products. Any suggestions? Currently I am using QuickBooks 5 – which doesn’t seem to be able to do this. I considered upgrading to the newer version – but apparently the newer version can’t handle it, either. Here’s the story: I make widgets – one widget consists of a gizmo, a gadget and a thingy – which all cost various prices. Now – my completed widget will consume one (or more) gizmo’s, gadgets and thingy’s. I need to know exactly what the widget cost me to make – and what my profit is depending on the sale price. I tried to make a custom program in Access – but that was too time consuming. There *has* to be a program out there that will work for me! Any suggestions? Thanks so much, Kim — Kim www.vtgenealogy.com *Behind every successful man is a surprised mother in law*

Response:

Hi Kim This can be done with programs like QB but not by conventional means. This is how. The products and labour you buy are expensed (with or without jobcost) as your "cost drivers" into the "expense" section of  the COA. Then they are "purchased" from "expense" and Inventoried as "packages" and give the same treatment until the "Widget" is complete. I used this process when building and it sounds more complex than it is. Example. Gizmo = Giz Materials           From Inventory purchases Giz Direct Labour    From Payroll Giz overhead           From Budget In this case the Gizmo units are used to make Gadgets Gadget = Gizmo units              From Inventory purchases Gad Materials          From Inventory purchases Gad Direct Labour   From Payroll Gad overhead          From Budget Thingy = Tngy Materials           From Inventory purchases Tngy Direct Labour    From Payroll Tngy overhead           From Budget Widget = Gadget units                From Inventory purchases Thingy Units                From Inventory purchases Wdgt Materials           From Inventory purchases Wdgt Direct Labour    From Payroll Wdgt overhead           From Budget Posting Gizmo cost drivers to Expense tracking production run with "job cost" Use a contra account to pay for Gizmo purchases to Gizmo Inventory. The purchase of the Gizmo Units off sets the Gizmo values in the expense section. Now you have Expensed these cost drivers Giz Materials           direct from Inventory Giz Direct Labour    Calculated from Job cost from your "Payroll expense" Giz overhead           Budget estimate but relates to the "Overheat" items expensed. and your COA expense Production Costs (heading) Giz Materials                         $XXX Giz Materials Allocation        -$MMM  You can use a subtotal account to indicate work in process. Or you can credit Giz Materials directly and the other accounts but there are good reasons not to. Giz Labour Allocation           -$LLL Giz overhead Allocation        -$OOO In this case the Inventory Purchase is Giz Materials $MMM Giz Direct Labour $LLL Giz overhead $OOO                                    Giz Materials ion        -$MMM                                    Giz Labour            -$LLL                                    Giz overhead ion        -$OOO                    and price is Nil And you use the Inventory transfer to create a Gizmo. You can simplify the process by doing a Job cost print out and posting the purchase Gizmos (Units) $MLO                                    Giz Materials Allocation        -$M                                    Giz Labour Allocation           -$L                                    Giz overhead Allocation        -$O                      and price is Nil

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi – I need an accounting program which will allow me to accurately track the *cost* of my products. Any suggestions? Currently I am using QuickBooks 5 – which doesn’t seem to be able to do this. I considered upgrading to the newer version – but apparently the newer version can’t handle it, either. Here’s the story: I make widgets – one widget consists of a gizmo, a gadget and a thingy – which all cost various prices. Now – my completed widget will consume one (or more) gizmo’s, gadgets and thingy’s. I need to know exactly what the widget cost me to make – and what my profit is depending on the sale price. I tried to make a custom program in Access – but that was too time consuming. There *has* to be a program out there that will work for me! Any suggestions? Thanks so much, Kim — Kim www.vtgenealogy.com *Behind every successful man is a surprised mother in law*

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi – I need an accounting program which will allow me to accurately track the *cost* of my products. Any suggestions? Currently I am using QuickBooks 5 – which doesn’t seem to be able to do this. I considered upgrading to the newer version – but apparently the newer version can’t handle it, either. Here’s the story: I make widgets – one widget consists of a gizmo, a gadget and a thingy – which all cost various prices. Now – my completed widget will consume one (or more) gizmo’s, gadgets and thingy’s. I need to know exactly what the widget cost me to make – and what my profit is depending on the sale price. I tried to make a custom program in Access – but that was too time consuming. There *has* to be a program out there that will work for me! Any suggestions? Thanks so much, Kim — Kim www.vtgenealogy.com

Your requirements are rather simple and are addressed in most if not all mid-range accounting products. The functionality you are looking for is called a single level bill of materials. Accpac for Windows www.Accpac.com has this functionality in its inventory module. If your a gluton for punishment and have tons of spare time on your hands I guess you could use QB, but then why anyone would want to use QB when they have to track inventory leaves me bewildered. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *Behind every successful man is a surprised mother in law*

Response:

Have you looked at group items? They can be used for things like a flash light kit consisting of a flashlight and two batteries. When you sell a flashlight, the flashlight inventory it reduced by 1 and the battery inventory is reduced by two and the cost of the three items is charged to cost of sales. Its rudimentary but that may be all you need. Also look at www.blocktax.com for a list of QB addons and someone there sells a manual on how to create and cost manufactured parts within QB. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi – I need an accounting program which will allow me to accurately track the *cost* of my products. Any suggestions? Currently I am using QuickBooks 5 – which doesn’t seem to be able to do this. I considered upgrading to the newer version – but apparently the newer version can’t handle it, either. Here’s the story: I make widgets – one widget consists of a gizmo, a gadget and a thingy – which all cost various prices. Now – my completed widget will consume one (or more) gizmo’s, gadgets and thingy’s. I need to know exactly what the widget cost me to make – and what my profit is depending on the sale price. I tried to make a custom program in Access – but that was too time consuming. There *has* to be a program out there that will work for me! Any suggestions? Thanks so much, Kim — Kim www.vtgenealogy.com *Behind every successful man is a surprised mother in law*

Response:

Question:

I am thinking of buying a used car (‘94 or ‘95 Taurus, Lumina or Intrepid; I haven’t decided which; or similar) and would like some info regarding AutoNation USA and other used car chains that have popped up lately. Are they any better than some of the dealers or local used car lots or are they just as bad? Any comments (good or bad) about these companies would be appreciated. Please reply to message through the newsgroup. Thanks — Paul D. There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics. If statistics are worse than damn lies, then what does that make accounting?

Response:

I am thinking of buying a used car (‘94 or ‘95 Taurus, Lumina or Intrepid; I haven’t decided which; or similar) and would like some info regarding AutoNation USA and other used car chains that have popped up lately. Are they any better than some of the dealers or local used car lots or are they just as bad? Any comments (good or bad) about these companies would be appreciated. Please reply to message through the newsgroup.

We’ve got an AutoNation here in Phoenix.  I have 2 observations: 1.  I like the "no haggle" pricing policy (much simpler) 2.  Their prices seemed high.  I can find better prices (with no haggle) at a local dealer. Scott PS — I’d stay away from the Lumina.  Try the Taurus.  <==Just my .02

Response:

Question:

A.J. Otto wrote I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. For serious exhaust check out squirrel cage blowers at Grainger.

Well … paint and other fumes implies finishing.  I don’t think that you’ll be happy just opening one window and blowing fumes out the other. There’ll be a lot of dust/bugs/pollen landing on your wet finish. How about buying one of those fine dust collectors that everyone is using now?  Cut it in half, put the filters on one window and the exhaust on the other.  Floors and walls better be really clean though. One other thought … spray rooms use explosion proof fans.  If you don’t want to go for that, you might get a used blower from an old oil burner. Many fuel companies sell new ones and have to cart the old ones away.  You could pick up a huge blower quite cheaply.

Response:

I find it a real pain to have fans in the shop. I have a small shop and all these extra people just get in the way. Then they want to use the bathroom….. — Tom Corey to reply remove "spamkill" from address

Response:

Same comment apply to cheerleaders? writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it a real pain to have fans in the shop. I have a small shop and all these extra people just get in the way. Then they want to use the bathroom…..

Response:

I obtained a used squirrel-cage blower and motor from a friend in the heating and air conditioning business.  (Mine were free, but if you have to pay, it shouldn’t be much.  There is no market for used parts.)  I mounted mine on a wood base, so I can roll it around the shop.  You could mount yours permanantly, if you prefer.  These things throw a huge amount of air.  Just be sure to regulate the airflow so that the motor draws the correct amps, or you could burn out the motor (or worse). A.J. Otto wrote I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. For serious exhaust check out squirrel cage blowers at Grainger.

– PLEASE NOTE (New Address): My e-mail address has been disguised to defeat automated spam programs.  For my correct address, please change  "elsewhere" to "mindspring", but leave off the quotation marks.  Sorry for the inconvenience.

Response:

I found an old broken window air conditioning unit that works well.  I advertised on the e-mail for a window unit where the air conditioner was broken but the fan still worked.  It fit in nicely with the available adjusters and is built to handle the differing weather conditions. Good luck, Joe P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Andrew, I was at Home Depot just last night looking for the same thing. Look in the bathroom dept. they have a bunch of fans that can be mounted through a window. One thing I noticed, only a few are rated for continuous operation. You should also make sure it has a flap or something to seal out the weather. Regards, Ron Alexander I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Joseph B. Paperman Assistant Professor of Accounting School of Business Administration University of Washington Box 353200 Seattle, WA  98195-3200

Response:

A.J. Otto wrote I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated.

For serious exhaust check out squirrel cage blowers at Grainger.

Response:

I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Response:

Shop fans? I’m agin ‘em. They always applaud at inappropriate times and spill popcorn all over the floor. heh heh heh heh Billie

Response:

You can find window fans of all different sizes and designs and prices at most major appliance stores (e.g., Best Buy, Service Merchandise, etc.) and home centers. And as for shop fans, yeah they are a nuisance when they spill the popcorn, and all the clapping and cheering can be distracting, but I must say that they are great for the ego. Howard in Miami

Response:

Andrew, I was at Home Depot just last night looking for the same thing. Look in the bathroom dept. they have a bunch of fans that can be mounted through a window. One thing I noticed, only a few are rated for continuous operation. You should also make sure it has a flap or something to seal out the weather. Regards, Ron Alexander – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Response:

I’ve been looking for one that will fit into a basement window that has those small sliding glass / screen windows installed (virtually permanently).  I was unable to find anything that would fit well, so right now I hang a little fan from the ceiling in front of it, but that doesn’t work too well.  Let me know if you happen to find anything like that or some alternate (other than the usual — Home Depot, etc.) sources. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Response:

Question:

: is Ben (Bilbo)                                                  

Nessa — I think we might have found us a third member of that shared personality thing, what do you think? (Ben, Nessa and I have recently been exploring the theory that we are really the same person — based on a number of eerie coincidences — you seem like you might be part of a heretofore unknown Triumverate) Actually, that’s not the way it was explained to me.  I often do well academically (especially standardized tests) — though not in high school, but that’s a different conversation — but whenever I can structure my own studying (read: procrastinate; think of something else; procrastinate some more; go play with little kids; procrastinate; hyperfocus-cram; preform; jettison it all; repeat as necessary).

Been there, done that.  Actually, though, about 90 percent of us on this group have too … (Damn if I don’t love parentheticals almost as much as I love footnotes — tell me it wasn’t an ADD head who invented hyperlinks and I tell you you’re mistaken) (anyway, back at the sentence…)

(Big grin) Lookit!  He *is* me!  Except — why use just parentheticals … when you can use dashes — and ellipses … and (of course) the parentheticals too; and don’t forget the semicolons! The point is (and as my friends will tell you, there always is one and I always — eventually — get to it)

Unless, of course, you get interrupted along the way … Wow.  I’m really unloading here.  I would feel bad except that you can just delete this and I’m not killing trees.

Yeah, but then what about all those little electrons that we kill when we push the delete button, huh??? : Welcome.. come in pull up a cushion (if you can find one in the mess) : sit down.. have a caffeine free coke (or an expresso coffee if you : prefer) and get to know us.

CAFFEINE FREE COKE?   Yuck, uggh, P-TOOIE!! Uh… how do I put this?  I beleive in two food groups.  CAF and FEINE. I’ll have the espresso.  In fact, if you could make it with that new caffeinated water, that’d be cool.

Double sugar, though.  I always said that the sugar was just to give me the quick rush to get me through until the caffeine kicked in.  I still say the same thing, but the sugar == caffeine == meds chain is even *more* effective (it used to be sugar == caffeine == more sugar == more caffeine, etc., until I’d crash and burn/go to bed to sleep it off). : When will you be a lawyer… I always love a good argument and : several people have told me to go to law school but… I don’t think : it’s in my future..

That’s my kid, my Patrick, my oldest.  He will spend THIRTY minutes giving me a song-and-dance about why he shouldn’t or doesn’t or can’t have to spend TEN minutes doing his homework.  If he makes it through eighth grade, he may continue right on through law training. This is my last of three years.  I graduate (barring unforseen bad things) in May or April or like that.  I’ve got it written down here somewhere.

(grin.  Love it.) So I took my English major and went into…  Local Area Network Management and Accounting.  Which was fun at first (I was learning a whole new thing, getting to hack code, being a boss and getting paid) but eventually began to manifest its true nature as EVIL EVIL EVIL.

Aren’t *all* careers, though, basically evil?  (So far I haven’t completely found the evil side of mine, which at the moment is Parenthood.  But I hear that one sometimes skips a generation). Turns out that just because everyone says a thing it doesn’t *necessarily* make it wrong.

Just most of the time. I appreciate the welcome.

It’s easy to welcome a Kindred Spirit.  You sure sound like one. Nancy G. seconding Nessa’s welcome.

Response:

Let’s start with my new favorite joke:   What did the snail say while riding on the back of the turtle?  .  .  .    " Whhheeeeeeeeeeeeeee! " Okay, next: who the heck am I?

I don’t know who the heck you are but I like you already!  New poster.  I know, I know, I’m supposed to lurk for a while before I post, so as to figure out the rhythm of it and all, but I’m feeling expressive.

Hey I bet you have ADD!!!  :-)  I’m a law student, soon to be a "real lawyer" (oooh!), and if you want to pick the job that is in some ways the perfect job for an ADHD type and in some ways the WORST, that’s it. It was about a year ago when I was diagnosed — here, you all will find this funny (and you’re probably the only ones who’ll understand) — The reason I went to talk to someone is because I could not figure out the two weeks of zero-motivation and depression that followed getting my grades.  See, I did really well.  Go figure.

Hey that’s easy… the ADD blues.  Anytime an ADD person does well at something and they are not used to it they get depressed. And Scared. And they react oddly since they don’t know how to react. Besides they figure.. oh well I’m just gonna screw it up again somehow somewhere someway…. THAT’S ADD!!!  Go figure  :-) Okay, so why didn’t you just lurk?  Well, I saw the post about juggling, and I have to say that even before I was diagnosed I would juggle while studying or whenever I had a project to do.  It was one of my home-grown accommodations, and it’s

FANTASTIC. Yeah I have to walk to concentrate, or draw or tap my feet or something… you sound well rounded… sorta.. <snip juggling.. Ben, Welcome.. come in pull up a cushion (if you can find one in the mess) sit down.. have a caffine free coke (or an expresso coffee if you prefer) and get to know us. When will you be a lawyer… I always love a good argument and several people have told me to go to law school but… I don’t think it’s in my future.. posted and mailed. warm thoughts, Nessa — An Error does not become a Mistake until you Refuse to Correct it.

Response:

                                                       alias.  It’s really                                                        Ben) : …The : reason I went to talk to someone is because I could not figure out the : two weeks of zero-motivation and depression that followed getting my : grades.  See, I did really well.  Go figure. : Hey that’s easy… the ADD blues.  Anytime an ADD person does well at : something and they are not used to it they get depressed. And Scared. : And they react oddly since they don’t know how to react. : Besides they figure.. oh well I’m just gonna screw it up again : somehow somewhere someway…. : THAT’S ADD!!!  Go figure  :-)   through, but here goes…  As I tell people who know me right before   I start verbalizing, Welcome to a ride on Ben’s brain.  Please keep Actually, that’s not the way it was explained to me.  I often do well academically (especially standardized tests) — though not in high school, but that’s a different conversation — but whenever I can structure my own studying (read: procrastinate; think of something else; procrastinate some more; go play with little kids; procrastinate; hyperfocus-cram; preform; jettison it all; repeat as necessary). And I always get depressed after I do well.  The fun part is the challenge.  The pressure feels good, and the crazy, multi-variable environment is the kind of thing my brain is perfectly wired for, so I finally feel at home.  But afterwards, especially if I’ve succeeded, I get depressed. There’s a lot of places to go with that (surprise).  I actually think that that’s why I procrastinate more and more each time I have tests or anything — to pump up the rush.  Kind of like, "Okay, I did a 30 page paper in 1 night starting at 5:30pm.  Let’s try a 45 page paper starting at 8:00pm.  Okay, let’s try a 50 page paper starting at midnight and after a date." (The first two of those, btw, actually happenned.  The third almost did,  but not quite) The bigger the dragon (what I sometimes call tests/projects/challenges), the bigger the thrill.  But if I succeed, the bigger the slump afterwards. First year really scared me, and for the first time in a long time I thought maybe I was beat.  I _liked_ that.  But I was wrong, and that bummed me out.  It was as depressed as I’d ever been, pretty much, so I went in to talk to someone, to figure that out. What you describe, Nessa, I’ve seen in others, though — but I think a big part of that is how those people have been taught to deal with the almost inevitably troublesome meeting of an ADD head and a structured school system. (especially high school). My parents (heck, my whole extended dance remix family) always backed me up, and when I got the usual "Ben has such potential, but fails to work properly to fulfill it," Mom and Dad focused more on the _potential_ and less on the _fails_.  They were also brilliantly supportive and, without even knowing it, quite sophisticated in their response.  A lot of the accomodation systems that I read about once I was diagnosed (is that the right term, btw?  I saw people using "evaluated.") (Damn if I don’t love parentheticals almost as much as I love footnotes — tell me it wasn’t an ADD head who invented hyperlinks and I tell you you’re mistaken) (anyway, back at the sentence…) A lot of the accommodations I read about once I was diagnosed I had already implemented in my life, either because Mom and Dad helped me out or because I had come to them on my own. The point is (and as my friends will tell you, there always is one and I always — eventually — get to it) that the depression and sort of self-deprecation are not inherent in ADD.  I’ll admit the tendency of us not to like change is part of the actual Disorder, though this is one of those few areas in which I’m not dead on with the factors as listed in the Big Book of Rumplestilskins. But the "oh well I’m just gonna screw it up again somehow somewhere someway" bit is more a factor of how they’ve been taught to react.   Nobody’s fault, but a different way to look at it.  My folks always said that if I was bored, it was a problem with the teacher.  You could have had PT Barnum up there and I’d still be looking out the window, but we didn’t know that then… I guess it also has to do with an accident of pigeonholing, whereby I got tagged as a giftie when I was young (by one of the very few very good teachers who sort of caught on to my game before it had a name), so that whenever a teacher tried to say that I was a natural born f***-up, my parents would whip out the ole IQ score. Wow.  I’m really unloading here.  I would feel bad except that you can just delete this and I’m not killing trees. : Welcome.. come in pull up a cushion (if you can find one in the mess) : sit down.. have a caffeine free coke (or an expresso coffee if you : prefer) and get to know us. Uh… how do I put this?  I beleive in two food groups.  CAF and FEINE. I’ll have the espresso.  In fact, if you could make it with that new caffeinated water, that’d be cool. : When will you be a lawyer… I always love a good argument and : several people have told me to go to law school but… I don’t think : it’s in my future.. This is my last of three years.  I graduate (barring unforseen bad things) in May or April or like that.  I’ve got it written down here somewhere. Everyone always told me I should be a lawyer for a long time.  But I’m perverse and I have a tendency to distrust whatever it is that consensus holds.  I call this the 10 billion flies theory (From a poster I saw a long time ago: "Eat Shit.  10 billion flies can’t be wrong.") So I took my English major and went into…  Local Area Network Management and Accounting.  Which was fun at first (I was learning a whole new thing, getting to hack code, being a boss and getting paid) but eventually began to manifest its true nature as EVIL EVIL EVIL. Having decided to move along career-wise, I took a look at the books and magazines and newspaper articles I was reading, and I took a look at what I wanted to be and what I wanted to do with my life… and decided I really do want to be a lawyer. Turns out that just because everyone sais a thing it doesn’t *necessarily* make it wrong. Turns out I really love the law, though I’m only sometimes fond of law school and only sometimes fond of lawyers. So who knows… you might end up a lawyer yet.  On another day, another post, I’ll go into what’s good and bad about the profession from an ADD standpoint, but suffice it to say that I’m looking forward to having a secretary. : posted and mailed. Yeah.  I got the email too.  I appreciate the welcome. : warm thoughts, –Ben Ben Manevitz.                      |Public Key (56 BA 7D 0C E5 22 01 3A http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~bmanevit |     .plan contains public key.      I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch –      He said to me, "You must not ask for so much."      And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door;      She cried to me, "Hey, why not ask for more?"       — L. Cohen

Response:

bilbo baggins, dude, <ADHD on  Have I ever told you I just love your name? </ADHD off Anyway… ::I could not figure out the two weeks of zero-motivation and depression :: that followed getting my grades.  See, I did really well.   I figured that what was causing my depression was the certain knowledge that "this exciting project was completed and I am now going to have to sit here vegetating waiting for the next bit of excitement to come along.

This is actually well documented clinically.  Just as you’d thought, the high of completing a big project (WAHOOO!) feels so great (and rare) that you’re left down in the valley afterward, looking up at the top of the next one (just as someone who wins an Academy Award feels a real depression from the "now what?" afterward).    Or, you could be like me and find yourself in that valley staring up at a whole mountain range… life, that mixture of nagging, endless, really daunting projects that you keep trying to tackle and can’t quite get organized to get far enough that you can show anyone your work yet. Welcome to a ride on Ben’s brain.  Please keep

bilbo, do I see you’re at Penn?  I live in Delaware **sheepish grin** Who cares, right? Gretchen Forgive me, I only have so much time to make it all outrageous! Forgive me, I only have so much time to make it all OUTRAGEOUS!

Response:

Re: PROCRASTINATION!: My older son (a senior in college, probable ADD) procrastinates on everything, and feels good about the "rush" from the pressure. Well, he finally (unintentionally) found an activity he can get that feeling from 5 days a week: he was promoted to editor of a section of the daily paper –which is due every night at 1:30am. Guess when it gets Pat

Response:

: Man,  this guy is ME!   I thought that no one else on the face of the : Earth was like me in this regard.  I NEVER did homework. Why?  All I : have to do is wait untill the last minute …  hyperfocus…  ta da!       Grin.  Or, like me, thought that knowledge was something you "just had".  I mean, sure, you had to READ the third grade history textbook, and glean over the predigested pap there. . . but then it was part of you.        I think if someone found a way not to let ADDers get away with this kind of lackadaisical attitude, there’d be better education for them.  (I know that in college, my math profs started asking me "why?" a lot more, and I started getting a *LOT* better!)

Response:

:                                                       alias.  It’s really :                                                       Ben) : : :: …The :: reason I went to talk to someone is because I could not figure out the :: two weeks of zero-motivation and depression that followed getting my :: grades.  See, I did really well.  Go figure. : :: Hey that’s easy… the ADD blues.  Anytime an ADD person does well at :: something and they are not used to it they get depressed. And Scared. :: And they react oddly since they don’t know how to react. : :: Besides they figure.. oh well I’m just gonna screw it up again :: somehow somewhere someway…. : :: THAT’S ADD!!!  Go figure  :-) I figured that what was causing my depression was the certain knowledge that "this exciting project was completed and I am now going to have to sit here vegetating waiting for the next bit of excitement to come along." This is really a depressing thought to me. I can’t stand to sit here and do nothing – or next to nothing. I was discussing this with a co-worker once. I like troubleshooting a problem more than I like maintaining a system. Troubleshooting is a problem to be solved. There is a visible goal. Maintenance is ongoing, neverending boredom. Troubleshooting also involves use of my ability to hyperfocus. It is fantastic how much time can pass so quickly when I am buried in a problem that needs to be solved. :  through, but here goes…  As I tell people who know me right before :  I start verbalizing, Welcome to a ride on Ben’s brain.  Please keep I like this. It is quotes like this that pick me up in my reading. Thanks, Ben. Pat I think I will pull together all of the lines in here that made me smile or LOL.

Response:

Bilbo Baggins, Man, if that is your real name, my hat’s off to your mother.  I LOVE it!  It’s one of those names no one would forget for a life time! People you knew 15 years ago STILL probably walk around just saying, "Bilbo Baggins" cause they love the way it sounds.  I am not being flippant, incidentally.  As a writer, I truly appreciate words (or names) that immediately transport you into an image. Anyway, I actually wanted to mention that I write with, sometimes, several sets of parenthesis in one sentence.  If you think about it (and hopefully someone will), good writing should sound lightly conversational; and the more decorative the conversation, the more places you’re going within it. Just a couple of thoughts… Gretchen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip Man,  this guy is ME!   I thought that no one else on the face of the Earth was like me in this regard.  I NEVER did homework. Why?  All I have to do is wait untill the last minute …  hyperfocus…  ta da! Got another ‘A’ that I felt I didn’t really deserve.  I actually lost respect for many of my teachers (not so many in high school as in college)  due to the fact that they couldn’t figure out that my paper that I was supposed to be working on for 3 months was actually done in one night (the night before it is due) and they still thought that  it was great…   And the part about using parenthesis all the time ( a thought within a thought)  bingo….   I not only write this way..  I speak this way.. Ditto’s Does anyone else happen to skip seemingly unimportant sentances or even paragraphs while reading a book? Not while on rit!!! But no rit, I can read the same paragraph 6 times Even if the book itself is engrossing?    I have also been told that I would be an excellent lawyer…  But my grandma forbids be…   (grin)… Anyway, this really is a cool group….   just a thought     chris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip Man,  this guy is ME!   I thought that no one else on the face of the Earth was like me in this regard.  I NEVER did homework. Why?  All I have to do is wait untill the last minute …  hyperfocus…  ta da! Got another ‘A’ that I felt I didn’t really deserve.  I actually lost respect for many of my teachers (not so many in high school as in college)  due to the fact that they couldn’t figure out that my paper that I was supposed to be working on for 3 months was actually done in one night (the night before it is due) and they still thought that  it was great…   And the part about using parenthesis all the time ( a thought within a thought)  bingo….   I not only write this way..  I speak this way..

Ditto’s Does anyone else happen to skip seemingly unimportant sentances or even paragraphs while reading a book?

Not while on rit!!! But no rit, I can read the same paragraph 6 times Even if the book itself is engrossing?    I have also been told that

I would be an excellent – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -lawyer…  But my grandma forbids be…   (grin)… Anyway, this really is a cool group….   just a thought     chris

Response:

: Hi Ben. We have a PhonyLawyer here and a PhonyDoc. The PhonyLawyer juggles : reality, and the PhonyDoc juggles lies. (Read more about them!) : Sorry to tell you that PhonyDoc got you beat. he can juggle dozens of lies : at one time. PhonyLawyer can juggle twenty or thirty conspiracies at once. Don’t get this wrong, but I’m going to try to avoid personal partisanship until I’ve actually read some posts.  But I’ll take the heads-up. : Oh, well, welcome aboard. Thanks.  I know this is very alt.fan.pooh, but do you know that was a very Eyeore way of going about it? –Ben Ben Manevitz.                      |Public Key (56 BA 7D 0C E5 22 01 3A http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~bmanevit |     .plan contains public key.      I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch –      He said to me, "You must not ask for so much."      And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door;      She cried to me, "Hey, why not ask for more?"       — L. Cohen

Response:

(Bilbo Baggins) writes: New poster.  I know, I know, I’m supposed to lurk for a while before I post, so as to figure out the rhythm of it and all, but I’m feeling expressive.  I’m a law student, soon to be a "real lawyer" (oooh!), and if you want to pick the job that is in some ways the perfect job for an ADHD type and in some ways the WORST, that’s it.

Hi Ben. We have a PhonyLawyer here and a PhonyDoc. The PhonyLawyer juggles reality, and the PhonyDoc juggles lies. (Read more about them!) It was about a year ago when I was diagnosed — here, you all will find this funny (and you’re probably the only ones who’ll understand) — The reason I went to talk to someone is because I could not figure out the two weeks of zero-motivation and depression that followed getting my grades.  See, I did really well.  Go figure.

We just discussed something along these lines. The let-down after achieving a goal. Quite normal, I would think. Okay, so why didn’t you just lurk?

ADDers cannot lurk. A lurking ADHDer is an oxymoron! Actually, I can do three balls, three clubs, three torches, (all standard) and some tricks with the balls.  What I like to do is try to do double-spins with the clubs, which I can’t do consistently yet, but it really brings me into the juggling.  Every club falling has that immediacy that I need to pay attention to it, and then once it’s caught it goes background to that other one over there that’s falling, and then once that’s caught…. and so on.

Sorry to tell you that PhonyDoc got you beat. he can juggle dozens of lies at one time. PhonyLawyer can juggle twenty or thirty conspiracies at once. Oh, well, welcome aboard. Mark S. Probert Long Island, New York

Response:

snip Man,  this guy is ME!   I thought that no one else on the face of the Earth was like me in this regard.  I NEVER did homework. Why?  All I have to do is wait untill the last minute …  hyperfocus…  ta da! Got another ‘A’ that I felt I didn’t really deserve.  I actually lost respect for many of my teachers (not so many in high school as in college)  due to the fact that they couldn’t figure out that my paper that I was supposed to be working on for 3 months was actually done in one night (the night before it is due) and they still thought that  it was great…   And the part about using parenthesis all the time ( a thought within a thought)  bingo….   I not only write this way..  I speak this way.. Does anyone else happen to skip seemingly unimportant sentances or even paragraphs while reading a book?  Even if the book itself is engrossing?    I have also been told that I would be an excellent lawyer…  But my grandma forbids be…   (grin)… Anyway, this really is a cool group….   just a thought     chris

Response:

Question:

 In other words, because we’re FREE, our health care costs more.  I say let the socialists who want to control me, and convert me  into a high-yield government resource, go to EUROPE.

        What is this often stated American FREEDOM ?         No no, I’m serious, I’d like to hear what You people         think freedom is, and how come e.g. the Northern         European countries are less free.         Jochen         PS. If I didn’t make it clear, this is not a flame-bait. —

Response:

"Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?" WRONG!!!  Americans regularly attend the Montreal Neurological Institute.  But your papers don’t care to write about it because they feel that their readers don’t care to see that.  Also, last autumn investigations have revealed widespread fraud by Americans embezzling health insurance cards from Canadian provincial plans, either individually or trafficked by fraud rings.  UPI Clarinet covered this, and other Canadian readers can corroborate from reading their local newspapers (it is very, very widespread).

I should add to Gary’s comments (and I should say that I’m glad to see him responding; I had a very nice and fruitful discussion of the positive and negative aspects of Canadian health care with him a few months ago) that people here in Buffalo go to Canada for treatment; specifically Toronto. Hospitals in that city are trying to attract more affluent patients from Buffalo; it’s a win-win situation for both of them because a) Buffalo patients can get treatment for cancer and other such diseases that they would normally have to travel to New York for, and b) the Toronto hospitals get more money because they charge rates that are higher than those charged Canadians yet lower than those in the US. world’s biggest company town.  The health insurance industry and the CMA doctors’ monopoly was in on it, too, ‘cos the former still sells additional private benefits without the risks of basic (now making more money) while the doctors are ALL private and set the insurance rates,

And there we see what I think is the real danger of adapting the Canadian system to the US. Gary is unapologetic about the CMA’s monopoly power that has come about as a result of socialized basic health-insurance (is that a proper term for it, Gary?). It’s an interesting phenomenon. The AMA opposes Canadian-style health care by promoting charges against the Canadian system that turn out to be either a) totally groundless, or b) ridiculously exaggerated through omissions of crucial information. These invariably come to light and are exposed as such. It almost seems as if the AMA were trying to lose on purpose. Why? Well, Conquest’s Law, formulated by the conservative American historian Robert Conquest (and not, as some have thought, his older brother Norman ) and quoted here on Usenet in a few sigs, tells us that the behavior of any large organization can best be predicted by asssuming it to be controlled by a cabal of its enemies. Is that the case with the AMA? Could it be controlled by a cabal of closet "pseudo-socialists"? Maybe, but not the sense we usually think of socialists. The AMA is curiously silent on the vast increase in power over the health care system in Canada that the CMA has been given, in the form of the licensing of practitioners and providers, through Canada’s single-payer system. Gary has recounted here stories of MDs wanting to practice specialties in a particular geographical area of Canada being denied licenses for that purpose because an older doctor in that region in the same specialty has trouble keeping his appointment book full. Of course, that usually has something to do with the sparse population density of many areas of Canada, but keep in mind that that does not in most cases translate to the US. This may be guided by the perfectly laudable principle of ensuring an efficient distribution of health-care resources, but there is no reason to assume that it always has to be so. In fact, it would be in the CMA’s best interest to, if it needed to, protect older and perhaps less competent doctors from competition from younger specialists. And how sure are we that there isn’t something like this going on? Or that they are arbitrarily restricting supply for their members benefit regardless of complaints about competence (and people who say that that would result in the doctor getting chastised have a lot more faith than I do in doctors’ ability and willingness to police themselves, and their responsiveness to complaints from non-medical people), much as certain unions of skilled professionals in the US deliberately keep membership low so as to ensure plenty of work for their members. You can bet, if Dr. X who’s been practicing, say, cardiology, in Moose Jaw without any competition for twenty-five years hears that Dr. Y has just finished a residency in cardiology and is planning to open a practice in that in the area, that if Dr. X, as a dues-paying life member of the CMA, makes a few calls to friends or other people higher-up in the organization with the power to make or influence the making of licensing decisions, Dr. Y will suddenly encounter all kinds of heretofore unseen bureaucratic delays. So it is likely to imagine that the AMA would develop the same sort of power if the US adopted single-payer-only on a much greater scale and with much less benevolence than the CMA has shown. I don’t think the American public would like the idea of a wealthy organization of professionals in a profession most of them have at best mixed feelings about, accountable only to its own members, having the ability to exercise whim and caprice over such a crucial element of the health-care system. And yet the AMA never mentions that when it preaches the evils of Canadian health care, but instead relies on arguments about waiting periods and other alleged atrocities so specious that the CMA (which, coincidentally, has a lot of links with the AMA) writes letters to the New York Times refuting them quite decisively. Hmmm. (Anybody for adding alt.conspiracy to the newsgroups line?) It would indeed be ironic if such proven and devoted defenders of free-market capitalism as the John Birch Society and other conservative individuals and organizations were to turn out to only be serving as useful idiots for the establishment of yet another American monopoly.

Response:

"Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?" WRONG!!!  Americans regularly attend the Montreal Neurological Institute.  But your papers don’t care to write about it because they feel that their readers don’t care to see that. I should add to Gary’s comments

Hi, Dan, good to see you again! (-; that people here in Buffalo go to Canada for treatment; specifically Toronto.

Vermonters go to Quebec all the time; it is actually helping to sustain the English-speaking sector of the medical industry there. the Toronto hospitals get more money because they charge rates that are higher than those charged Canadians yet lower than those in the US.

Actually, that ties in with my remark elsewhere that while claims to the provincial health insurance (OHIP, here) are guaranteed, cash payments and direct claims to American private insurance is not and thus there is the added overhead.  In fact, my buddy’s practice (he’s a junior partner, but on the verge of promotion) declared cash-only for non-insured last year after getting the stiff from a number of claims to American insurance companies.  This time last year, I freighted to them a used credit card machine bought at a defunct video store on 72nd St. at Columbus Avenue in NYC (remember that there is overhead from accepting plastic, too). Since our health care facilities are private, I certainly have no problem with them looking for more customers than they can get locally … in fact, by serving a wider market it can justify the presence of low-demand specialties that we don’t have the domestic population to supply with business … free trade! (-; Interestingly, I have a clearance from my company (self-insures, but they’re huge so no fear of getting stiff on my part) that our 80/20 can apply to cash billings generated in Canada … the cost is cheaper than doing 80/20 here, and less than what HMO’s charge when they are able to take welk-in business (btw, is that common?).  It also gives me a sick day or an extra vacation day here and there to do errands back north of the border. (-; world’s biggest company town.  The health insurance industry and the CMA doctors’ monopoly was in on it, too, ‘cos the former still sells additional private benefits without the risks of basic (now making more money) while the doctors are ALL private and set the insurance rates, And there we see what I think is the real danger of adapting the Canadian system to the US. Gary is unapologetic about the CMA’s monopoly power that has come about as a result of socialized basic health-insurance (is that a proper term for it, Gary?).

Well, if "socialized" national self-insurance in the same manner of "socialized" national self-defence … (culture, eh?) It’s not a matter of being unapologetic as much as cynical realpolitik (e.g., there was no good reason not to arm Saddam when he was beating on the Ayatollah & Co.).  The CMA is bigger than the Law Societies up north (maybe why malpractice has not moved towards the American mode, probably for better in this case).  Also, my ethnic background happens to be Chinese (family name was anglicized coming to Canada in 1900’s, like what happened to a lot of Ukrainians …) and I got to know lots of doctors from my parents’ circle, as well as their children … some are really hardcore CMA types — in once case, the father came from Taiwan and had to restart his medical education from 3rd year through residency despite being a Chief Surgeon in Taipei and for an Aramco hospital in Saudi Arabia; now, he’s retired and one of the Manitoba MA’s most vicious gatekeepers regarding qualifications. It almost seems as if the AMA were trying to lose on purpose. Why? Could it be controlled by a cabal of closet "pseudo-socialists"? Maybe, but not the sense we usually think of socialists.

It could be a matter of defending your best present position …  as an analogy, Intel has written a lot of papers and articles decrying MCM’s (multi-chip modules) in the high tech press, yet they have a number of tightly-secured labs (no big secret here) to catch up on that very sort of technology. The AMA is curiously silent on the vast increase in power over the health care system in Canada that the CMA has been given, in the form of the licensing of practitioners and providers, through Canada’s single-payer system.

More critical is the CMA’s role in setting the insurance rates … why Canadian doctors take home the same net pay as their American cousins once you factor the gross pay differences due to malpractice insurance. And yet the AMA never mentions that when it preaches the evils of Canadian health care, but instead relies on arguments about waiting periods and other alleged atrocities so specious that the CMA (which, coincidentally, has a lot of links with the AMA) writes letters to the New York Times refuting them quite decisively. Hmmm. (Anybody for adding alt.conspiracy to the newsgroups line?)

Oh, thanks for reminding me … in an Alt.conspiracy vein, the AMA may have been silent for more than a year so that people can forget what they’ve been saying (despite its mass propagation, as in the John Birch article) and have a Canadian card to play in the health care poker game … I was shocked to see that letter from the CMA’s president in the Times in March, because it would not be there sans clearance from the AMA (i.e., not their territory).  Most of the recent Canada-bashing seems to be echoes of people repeating old information that has been refuted in newspapers and magazines of record/repute (NYT, Economist, etc.). It would indeed be ironic if such proven and devoted defenders of free-market capitalism as the John Birch Society and other conservative individuals and organizations were to turn out to only be serving as useful idiots for the establishment of yet another American monopoly.

Actually, it would be funny if Rush Limbaugh didn’t know the role of the Canadian Conservatives in our health insurance setup, took shots at it, then gets a phone call from Peter Lougheed or Bill Davis … (-; gld — Gary L. Dare                            Montreal Canadiens, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

             Eight Myths about National Health Insurance   "Health Assurance" — Jan/Feb issue of _In Health_, by Anthony Schmitz   "When pollsters asked U.S. citizens if they’d prefer Canadian health       care over their own, 72 percent said yes. As for the number of             Canadians who’d choose the U.S. system: 3 percent"   "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but it’s   not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance, you don’t       go to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to pay.’"   Would a Canadian umbrella leak in the United States?   "Socialized health and medical services," said the politician, "are   incompatible with the rights and responsibilities inherent in a free   and democratic society." The year was 1959, and the speaker was J.   Donovan Ross, Alberta’s Minister of Health. Remarkably, Canada’s   citizens disagreed. By 1966 the government had declared itself the   nation’s only health insurer, and by 1971 every Canadian had full,   free coverage.   Now Americans are jealous. Anyone bold enough to endorse Canada as a   suitable model, however, can expect an argument. Here are eight   objections and the rejoinders.   WOULDN’T NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE AMOUNT TO "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE,"   FULL OF BUREAUCRATS TELLING OUR DOCTORS HOW TO TREAT US?   The thought of handing Washington power over everyone’s health is   indeed a little spooky. Who can forget the government’s attempt to   "simplify" our income tax forms by adding a mass of befuddling new   instructions?   But look at U.S. health care now. Our doctors already obey legions of   intrusive bureaucrats: Insurance officials regularly demand that your   doctor call for permission to go ahead with treatment. Medicare   officials dictate precisely how long patients can stay in the   hospital. The number of U.S. health care administrator has climbed 3.5   times faster than the number of doctors. In Canada, there are no   meddling insurers, while the government’s main power is in raising   money and paying bills, with minimal monitoring for outlandish   practices. "No one second-guesses me," says the president of British   Columbia’s medical association. "I’ve got clinical freedom."       [While the answer doesn't say so explicitly Canada's system is not     "socialized medicine" [as a Cronkite TV special quickly pointed     out to its audience, trained to fear anything "social" let alone     socialism (which had as much to do with the former Soviet bloc as     does "democracy"; they called themselves that too)] the doctors     are not employed by the state; the doctors and hospitals are     private, but the state, being the sole "buyer", has been given a     lot of power by Canadians to negotiate the prices with the doctors     an hospitals for their services and care. Bite your lip before     reading the next question. –HB] DON’T WE ALREADY HAVE THE WORLD’S BEST HEALTH CARE?   It’s certainly the most expensive. In 1987, we spent $2,050 per   citizen on health care. Canada spent an average of $1,480, most   European nations even less.   Unfortunately, spending the most hasn’t made us the healthiest.   Canada, culturally most like the United States, has an infant   mortality rate 25 percent lower. Their rate of heart disease death is   20 percent lower. Their average life span –77.1 years– is almost two   years longer   WHY NOT JUST FINE-TUNE OUR EXISTING SYSTEM SO IT REACHES ALL THE   PEOPLE WHO AREN’T NOW COVERED?   Many proposals for full U.S. health coverage would require all   businesses (except the smallest) to insure the health of their   workers, with the government looking out for everyone else.   Such fine-tuning can improve our system but won’t really fix its   biggest problem: the billions of dollars we waste every year on   paper-shuffling. (Even the picky Consumers Union recently came to   that same conclusion and endorsed a Canadian-style plan.) In Canada,   according to the latest study, citizens each spent $18 a year for   "administrative" costs," while each of us spent $95 — for a total of   $20 billion more than we would have with Canadian-style care. That’s   not all. Our doctors, hospitals, and nursing homes spend much more   –$62.1 billion by a 1983 estimate– filing out insurance forms,   billing patients, and collecting.  

Response:

[3] Jan/Feb 1991 _In Health_ magazine, which adds that in Canada, according to a recent study, citizens each spent $18 a year for "administrative costs," while each of us spent $95 — for a total of $20 billion more than we would have with Canadian-style care.  Our doctors, hospitals, and nursing homes spend much more — $62.1 billion by a 1983 estimate — filing out insurance forms, billing patients, and collecting. The article notes that compared to other countries, "[The U.S. health care "system"] is certainly the most expensive. In 1987, we spent $2,050 per citizen on health care. Canada spent an average of $1,480, most European nations even less. "Unfortunately, spending the most hasn’t made us the healthiest. Canada, culturally most like the United States, has an infant mortality rate 25 percent lower. Their rate of heart disease death is 20 percent lower. Their average life span — 77.1 years — is almost two years longer" Similar conclusions were reached by a Business magazine [See "Condition Critical" cover story, Business Today, Fall, 1990, which summarized in hard numbers in its charts how "America spends the most... but gets the least"]

Response:

[1] The General Accounting Office [GAO] stated in a 1991 report that "If the universal coverage and single-payer features of the Canadian system were applied in the United States, the savings IN ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS ALONE would be MORE THAN ENOUGH to finance insurance coverage for the millions of Americans who are currently uninsured. There would be ENOUGH LEFT OVER to permit a reduction, or possibly even the elimination, of co-payments and deductibles" [In These Times, June 26-July 9, 1991. My added emphasis] The article also notes that "In 1970 both Canada and the U.S. spent about 7.4 percent of their gross national products on health care. By 1989, The U.S. spent 11.6 of its national income on health and Canada only 8.9 percent. Yet in Canada more health care service was delivered per person than in the U.S., according to a recent report by the U.S. General Accounting Office"

Response:

Billing, administration, and insurance overhead as percentage of total spending: U.S.:           22% Canada:         13.7% U.K.            11.1% and Percentage of premiums consumed by overhead: Private Insurance Companies:              12% (overhead & profits) Public payers (e.g. Medicare, Medicaid):   3% Canadian provincial insurance plans:      under 1%

Response:

** Topic 447    Socialized Medicine?    3 responses ** techie       alt.activism     6:13 am  Jun 19, 1993 ** (at cellar.org)      (From News system) **   **   ** IF WE DON’T STOP THEM, THEY’LL DESTROY AMERICAN MEDICINE **   **     "Now a Presdential team, led by Hillary Rodham Clinton, is determined   ** to apply socialism’s losing strategy to the American medical system.   ** What they plan to do amounts too performing crippling surgey on a   ** patient who needs only to be  left alone." "John Kennedy made federally guaranteed health care for older American a key element of his presidential campaign platform. But even Medicare, a boon for tens of millions of the elderly — not to mention doctors and hospitals — was enacted over the strident opposition of the AMA. Calling it `SOCIALIZED MEDICINE,’ the AMA enlisted a HOLLYWOOD ACTOR NAMED RONALD REAGAN to help block the program on Capitol Hill. "`If you and I don’t stop’ Medicade, Reagan warned on a phonograph record the AMA sent to doctors’ wives, `WE’LL SPEND OUR SUNSET YEARS TELLING OUR CHILDREN and children’s children what it was like in America when men were free.’" FROM                  What’s Blocking HEALTH CARE REFORM?          For all the finger pointing, the real culprit may be            lawmakers’ addiction to medical industry money.                   By Vicki Kemper and Viveca Novak. —  Excerpted from Common Cause magazine, Jan-March 1992, —             (Vol 18 Number 1, cover story).

Response:

EIGHT MYTHS about National Health Insurance (Pt II)     An office visit that’s $52 in Seattle is $18 in Vancouver     (Canada).  That’s because, among other things, they’ve given their     government power to bargain with doctors and hospitals over fees.     “before you reflexively holler "No new taxes," consider what     you’re already paying…in existing state and federal taxes,     insurance premiums, payroll deductions, deferred wages,     deductibles, copayments, and ordinary cash transactions with     doctors and hospitals. Canadians pay their once in taxes but get     more care — for $600 *LESS* OUT OF EACH CITIZEN’S EARNINGS. Last     year our country spent $640 billion on health care. With a     Canadian-style system, at Canadian rates, we could cover everyone     for $365 billion.  ” "Here are eight objections and the rejoinders." "Health Assurance" — Jan/Feb issue of _In Health_, by Anthony Schmitz   "When pollsters asked U.S. citizens if they’d prefer Canadian health       care over their own, 72 percent said yes. As for the number of             Canadians who’d choose the U.S. system: 3 percent"   "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but it’s   not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance, you don’t       go to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to pay.’"   THERE’S NO WAY THE GOVERNMENT CAN PAY FOR EVERY AMERICAN’S   CARE WITHOUT RAISING TAXES THROUGH THE ROOF.   The federal government *would* have to come up with billions of   dollars more than the $115 billion it now spends on its health   programs for the poor and aged. Some could come from income taxes,   some from luxury taxes on cigarettes or cosmetic surgery. In Canada,   several provinces charge a small monthly premium.   But before you reflexively holler "No new taxes," consider what you’re   already paying. That grand total of $2,050 we spend per citizen doesn’t   come out of thin air. It comes in dribs and drabs out of your own   earnings — in existing state and federal taxes, insurance premiums,   payroll deductions, deferred wages, deductibles, copayments, and   ordinary cash transactions with doctors and hospitals. Canadians pay   their once in taxes but get more care — for $600 *less* out of each   citizen’s earnings. Last year our country spent $640 billion on health   care. With a Canadian-style system, at Canadian rates, we could cover   everyone for $365 billion.   WOULDN’T NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE MEAN THAT AMERICANS WHO ARE NOW   FULLY INSURED MIGHT HAVE TO SETTLE FOR LESS?   In Canada, provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental   care, eyeglasses, prescription drugs, ambulance service, and private   hospital rooms, — so many Canadians do end up buying some private   insurance. A policy to cover all of these things runs about #40 to $40   a month.   In fact, however, most people in the United States don’t really have   full coverage. Overall, American insurance now covers just 74 percent   of the costs of doctors’ services, 39 percent of dentists’ services,   and 25 percent of prescription drug charges. We pay the rest out of   pocket.   WOULDN’T FREE CARE ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO RUN TO THE DOCTOR FOR EVERY   ACHE AND PAIN?   People who get free treatment *do* go to the doctor and hospital about   a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical   bills.   Still, Canadians — who pay nothing at the doctor’s — have a lower   per-person health bill than we do. That’s because, among other things,   they’ve given their government power to bargain with doctors and   hospitals over fees. An office visit that’s $52 in Seattle is $18 in   Vancouver.   DOESN’T LETTING DOCTORS SEND PATIENTS’ BILLS STRAIGHT TO THE   GOVERNMENT LEAD TO MORE NEEDLESS TREATMENTS AND TESTS?   When patients get free care and doctors can charge no more than a set   amount per treatment, the tide does tend to run toward more and more   treatment. Studies in Canada have shown jumps in the number of   doctors’ billings –and in their incomes– after the government froze   their fees.   But the same thing’s now going on in this country — except here   federal regulators *and* private insurers have been trying, with even   less success, to keep a lid on physicians’ incomes. Last decade   American doctors increased their cut of the national income by 40   percent while Canadian doctors captured only another 10 percent.   ISN’T THE PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY JUST TOO BIG   AND POWERFUL TO KILL?   Dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be   "politically thorny," in the quiet words of one advocate for a   national plan. Some 1,200 firms now sell more than $192 billion in   health insurance. They’d put up a hard fight. Not only has the industry   grown eightfold since Canada shut down its own health insurers, but our   government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does   Canada’s parliamentary system.   Still, there’s no legal barrier to making health insurance an American   public service. The states have broad powers to legislate business   affairs and to promote citizens’ health. Likewise, the federal   government can use its control of tax revenues   — as it does with highway funds — to set standards for the states.  

Response:

  " Taking a Look at the German Prescription "  by Henrik Bering-Jensen     How realistic is it to talk about adopting another country’s health     care system?  Not very, according to John Iglehart, the national     correspondent for the New England Journal of Medicine…     Every country has distinct political, economic and social     characteristics that make such copying difficult.

I’ll concur with that … on the surface, Canada and France and Germany use the most expensive approach of providing pure health insurance, uncontrolled, to pay for private doctors and hospitals. No HMO’s, except for a small clone of the British National Health Service in France to cover the poorest French (their system has a schedule of copayments and deductibles, and is closest to that you Americans have as private insurance).  However, people need less of it … thus lower costs.     Many of the problems that beset the United States are not     really health problems as such, but social problems.  For instance,     the American health care system has to deal with a percentage of     sickness and injury brought on by violence or self-destructive     behavior that is high compared with othe industrialized countries.

Okay, but there is also the fact that Canadian, French and German people are encouraged to practice preventive medicine (not forced) and get an annual checkup … so the insurance pays $50 now to save $5000 later.  Only a small number of American coverage as come to recognize that.     Furthermore, according to Schwartz [ of Health Policy International ]     treating everyone with the maximum high-tech care available     invariably sends costs up in proportion to the level of social     pathologies that cause health problems.

Okay … but also remember that a lot of high tech advances in the U.S. came about because people didn’t get simple stuff checked out earlier, and it mushroomed in all sorts of wild and wonderful ways. But other high tech care, other countries are nose-to-nose with the U.S. … infant care is led by the Germans, and Canadians are leaders in neurology (lots of Americans go to the Montreal Neuro- logical Institute … private).  In other words, because we’re FREE, our health care costs more.  I say let the socialists who want to control me, and convert me  into a high-yield government resource, go to EUROPE.

Most of the European systems (like Canada) were installed by their pro-business parties to the cries and derisions of socialists. You have to remember that values can differ between societies … me and Gerald Olchowy are a couple of the most pro-business Canadians on USENET yet we don’t equate basic health needs with ownership of a VCR … but we’re not Americans. gld — Gary L. Dare                            Montreal Canadiens, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

      "We hear a great deal about the supposed wonders of the Canadian socialized medicine system, " notes Mr. Mcmanus. "Yet the inevitable problems of government control over medicine have come home to roost in Canada, as they already have in Britain and other nations where government controls medicine."

Doctors in Canada are all private.  Hospitals are mostly private non-profit and public.  Britain is entirely different, they have what is essentially a national HMO (actually, HMO is based on the UK National Health Service).     The Birch Society isn’t alone in pointing out that Canadian patients must now pay for services they thought would be "free." They never were free of course, because Canadians have been heavily taxed to pay for them.

When state taxes, health insurance and various "user fees" are added to federal tax rates, Americans come out marginally ahead of their Canadian cousins.  Such comparisons are constantly being grinded on Soc.culture.canadas … retail prices are better in the U.S. because of higher volume purchasing (w/10+ times more people!) and efficient distribution (Canada has more middlemen involved, but that is in the process of changing thankfully). With "free" medical care, many more Canadians applied for it; and doctors who are paid based on case load are either rushing patients through or supplying services that are not called for.

Doctors are paid on a per-procedure basis just like in the U.S. because the system is only insurance.  It is true that all costs are covered and billing is invisible … I’ve always thought that it was a shortfall.  However, Canadians use LESS health care and are a healthier society … that offsets use of the most expensive approach possible, all insurance and no HMO’s.  Padding of bills is happening in the U.S., not Canada … in that respect, I’m glad that Canadian society is more innocent and naive … "Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?"

WRONG!!!  Americans regularly attend the Montreal Neurological Institute.  But your papers don’t care to write about it because they feel that their readers don’t care to see that.  Also, last autumn investigations have revealed widespread fraud by Americans embezzling health insurance cards from Canadian provincial plans, either individually or trafficked by fraud rings.  UPI Clarinet covered this, and other Canadian readers can corroborate from reading their local newspapers (it is very, very widespread). He cites a recent NEW YORK TIMES report listing lengthly waiting periods in Canada for various types of surgery.

This was in early March and the article said no such thing.  In fact, I’ve referenced that same article by John F. Burns to show quite the opposite.  Small markets have otherwise ALWAYS affected Canada’s infrastructure. And he also points to another report showing that the government-run medical bureau in Western Canada recently sent 200 patients to Seattle for treatment it could not supply.

There is no such thing as a "government-run medical bureau" anywhere in Canada.  The "system" is only insurance paying out to a private health care infrastructure (payment =/= practice!) *after the fact*. Nobody in Canada, France or Germany is told how to spend their benefits.  Because of transient demand in this one case many years ago (but you wouldn’t know that in America), where all local private doctors were busy, people were reminded that they could get their procedure done elsewhere and can apply for reimbursement (it is, after all, just insurance).  In fact, those British Columbians had the flexibility of coverage that a lot of Americans would not have had. And they were free individuals acting on their own, not herded cattle as the speaker would suggest. Most Americans don’t know that our system of health CARE is private, and always has been, but the basic health INSURANCE is public … and not because of socialists, but because Canada is set up like the world’s biggest company town.  The health insurance industry and the CMA doctors’ monopoly was in on it, too, ‘cos the former still sells additional private benefits without the risks of basic (now making more money) while the doctors are ALL private and set the insurance rates, plus prohibited HMO’s (U.S. HMO practice is derived from the British National Health Service, which is REAL socialized medicine).  Only the Liberals and Conservatives were in power to enact the insurance transition; the socialist NDP were out of power everywhere, anywhere. OHIP was the cornerstone of a five-term Conservative dynasty under John P. Robarts and William G. Davis in Ontario. We have real socialists up north, not strawman "liberals", and they wanted a National Health Service like the British have … a method found in private form as HMO in the U.S.  The "Canadian system" is a backstab upon them, but that hasn’t stopped them from running around trying to take the credit; American redbaiters have eaten it up, apparently. gld — Gary L. Dare                            Montreal Canadiens, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

IF WE DON’T STOP THEM, THEY’LL DESTROY AMERICAN MEDICINE     "Now a Presdential team, led by Hillary Rodham Clinton, is determined to apply socialism’s losing strategy to the American medical system. What they plan to do amounts too performing crippling surgey on a patient who needs only to be  left alone."        So states John F. McManus, the national  president of the John Birch Society. The organization has frequently spoken out about the dangers inherent in socialized medicine and is continuing to do so in the face of stepped-up movement in that direction by the Clinton Adminstration."We hear a great deal about the supposed wonders of the Canadian socialized medicine system, " notes Mr. Mcmanus. "Yet the inevitable problems of government control over medicine have come home to roost in Canada, as they already have in Britain and other nations where government controls medicine."      The Birch Society isn’t alone in pointing out that Canadian patients must now pay for services they thought would be "free." They never were free of course, because Canadians have been heavily taxed to pay for them. With "free" medical care, many more Canadians applied for it; and doctors who are paid based on case load are either rushing patients through  or supplying services that are not called for. "The system is breaking down."        "Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?" He cites a recent NEW YORK TIMES report listing lengthly waiting periods in Canada for various types of surgery. And he also points to another report showing that the government-run medical bureau in Western Canada recently sent  200 patients to Seattle for treatment it could not supply.     According to the Birch Society leader, the cost of American health care has risen "because of too much government involvement already. If we don’t stop them, they’ll drive the cost through the roof while they throw the quality out the window."       "If you want a good example of the harm federal control does, take a look at education in America," insists Mr. McManus. "Federal aid started flowing to education 40 years ago and the quality has gone sharply down hill ever since.. Wisdom dictates that Americans refuse to allow other bureaucrats to get their hands on medicine." The Birch Society contends that less government, not more, would help to make our nation’s health care system even finer. John F. McManus National President of the John Birchh Society 770 Westhill Blvd. Appleton, WI 54915-5787 Call 1-800-JBS-USA1 and have a major credit ready for our $5.00 Informational packet. —— The Cellar BBS – (215) 539-3043

Response:

IF WE DON’T STOP THEM, THEY’LL DESTROY AMERICAN MEDICINE    "Now a Presdential team, led by Hillary Rodham Clinton, is determined to apply socialism’s losing strategy to the American medical system. What they plan to do amounts too performing crippling surgey on a patient who needs only to be  left alone."

Excerpts from "Insight" magazine, June 28, 1993    " Taking a Look at the German Prescription "  by Henrik Bering-Jensen      How realistic is it to talk about adopting another country’s health      care system?  Not very, according to John Iglehart, the national      correspondent for the New England Journal of Medicine…      Every country has distinct political, economic and social      characteristics that make such copying difficult.      Many of the problems that beset the United States are not      really health problems as such, but social problems.  For instance,      the American health care system has to deal with a percentage of      sickness and injury brought on by violence or self-destructive      behavior that is high compared with othe industrialized countries.      Furthermore, according to Schwartz [ of Health Policy International ]      treating everyone with the maximum high-tech care available      invariably sends costs up in proportion to the level of social      pathologies that cause health problems.      But once these pathologies are factored out, he says, the American      system compares very nicely with other systems in terms of both      results and costs ".   In other words, because we’re FREE, our health care costs more.   I say let the socialists who want to control me, and convert me   into a high-yield government resource, go to EUROPE.   I truly hope Clinton DOES implement his plan this year.  It should   polish off what’s left of the job market and economy, and INCITE   a REVOLUTION.

Response: