Question:

I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks

Response:

Though I have no experience in auditing, I can tell you the reason why there is a lag between the end of a company’s fiscal year and their reports made public is due to a few of these reasons and more… 1) Just because a company’s fiscal year is ended does not mean that is the same day financial statements are prepared. 2) Financial statements go through rough drafts. Depending on the company there may be several involved notes and schedules attached to them. 3) Auditors are responsible for making sure that everything in the financial statements is accurate and in accordance with GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Procedures). If things are missing, if notes are not well written it goes back to the accountant who prepared them in the first place. Since you are doing a research paper (I guess that is why you want this information), you realize that for it to be in good form and proper and in accordance with MLA, it can’t be done in two weeks from the time you were given the assignment. I don’t know if you have googled, but try there. BOL, Janice

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks

Response:

Just did a quick google…Another reason is that the SEC gives publicly traded companies a certain amount of time to have the reports in. I don’t know if the SEC was able to shorten the time allowance, but as of Feb 2003 they wanted to shorten a company’s time frame to hand in financial statements due to the collapse of ENRON and other questionable companies. Janice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I have no experience in auditing, I can tell you the reason why there is a lag between the end of a company’s fiscal year and their reports made public is due to a few of these reasons and more… 1) Just because a company’s fiscal year is ended does not mean that is the same day financial statements are prepared. 2) Financial statements go through rough drafts. Depending on the company there may be several involved notes and schedules attached to them. 3) Auditors are responsible for making sure that everything in the financial statements is accurate and in accordance with GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Procedures). If things are missing, if notes are not well written it goes back to the accountant who prepared them in the first place. Since you are doing a research paper (I guess that is why you want this information), you realize that for it to be in good form and proper and in accordance with MLA, it can’t be done in two weeks from the time you were given the assignment. I don’t know if you have googled, but try there. BOL, Janice I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks

Response:

I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online?

For public reporting companies, it can be not later than 90 (+15 with extension) days from fiscal year -end.  you can search filings by form and date (you want 10K & 10KSB) here: http://www.10kwizard.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks

Response:

Just did a quick google…Another reason is that the SEC gives publicly traded companies a certain amount of time to have the reports in. I don’t know if the SEC was able to shorten the time allowance, but as of Feb 2003 they wanted to shorten a company’s time frame to hand in financial statements due to the collapse of ENRON and other questionable companies. Janice

is there a final rule on that?  the proposal i read has a phase-in. — All kinds of strange things go on there. Everybody knows that if you head into the Republic of Texas, anything can happen.  That’s why we all stay here in Colorado.  (Kathleen Ann Goonan) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I have no experience in auditing, I can tell you the reason why there is a lag between the end of a company’s fiscal year and their reports made public is due to a few of these reasons and more… 1) Just because a company’s fiscal year is ended does not mean that is the same day financial statements are prepared. 2) Financial statements go through rough drafts. Depending on the company there may be several involved notes and schedules attached to them. 3) Auditors are responsible for making sure that everything in the financial statements is accurate and in accordance with GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Procedures). If things are missing, if notes are not well written it goes back to the accountant who prepared them in the first place. Since you are doing a research paper (I guess that is why you want this information), you realize that for it to be in good form and proper and in accordance with MLA, it can’t be done in two weeks from the time you were given the assignment. I don’t know if you have googled, but try there. BOL, Janice I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks

Response:

I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks

Though I have no experience in auditing, I can tell you the reason why there is a lag between the end of a company’s fiscal year and their reports made public is due to a few of these reasons and more…

Hi Janice – Thanks for your post.  I understand why there is a lag (it’s pretty much common sense to me) but I was looking for some empirical data to support picking a specific lag, e.g., 60 days.  Let me explain. Suppose I am examining the statistical correlation between EBIT coverage of interest and the S&P rating of companies.  The value of EBIT and interest expense is only obtainable from the 10-K/annual report, and assume all the firms I’m analyzing have a fiscal date of Dec 31, 2002.  Obviously, I would not compile a dataset of all firms’ EBIT/interest expense ratios as of Dec 31, 2002 with the S&P rating as of the same date;  the S&P rating on 12/31/02 would not reflect digestion of the 12/31/02 audit, and my statistics could be biased.  I would want to compile a dataset of ratios as of 12/31/02 with S&P ratings that reflect full digestion of the audited numbers. Would I pick the S&P rating at the end of January 2003?  Probably not;  the audit likely hadn’t been released by then.  The rating at the end of February 2003?  Maybe;  some firms’ audited 12/31/02 number have probably been released by then.  The rating at the end of March 2003?  Maybe.  Even if the SEC requires all 10-Ks to be released 90 days after the fiscal, there is chance S&P’s analysts haven’t had a chance to digest the audited numbers AND adjust the ratings due to discoveries in the audit.  How about June 2003?  That may be too much of a lag;  the S&P rating at that date probably reflects full digestion of the 12/31/02 audit and possibly the first quarter’s results. One key to picking the appropriate lag is to make some judgment about when the audited numbers are finally released.  Obviously, it is possible to check out Edgar and see when each firm’s 10-K hit the street but for approximately 1000 rated firms this becomes time-consuming.  If I run my study on ALL firms, with varying fiscal dates, then it becomes even harder. Make it a pooled cross-sectional time series dataset then my problem is umpteen fold. If there was a study that found the average or median or upper quartile lag between fiscal and release date was, say, 45 days, then I could feel comfortable choosing the S&P rating three months after the fiscal date. That is, I assume 45 days for S&P to get the audit, then another 45 days for the analyst to review the audit and make any rating changes.  Yes,  45 days to review a company may seem excessive, but remember analysts typically follow 20-30 companies and if the all release their audit February 15 then some prioritizing has to happen. Also, it is critical the study covers only US firms.  The lag in Europe (I’ve done some work on this) is pretty draconian (some firms’ audits are released by the next mid-year in some places) and a mixed study may affect the lag to use in North America. Sorry if I wasn’t clear the first time around.  Again, if anyone has seen this type of research I’d appreciate either posting the link or an email address of the researcher. Thanks, Steve

Response:

I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks

I don’t know where you would find it, but I would look at the earnings announcement date as the "release" date.  Most public companies try and get informal assurance from the CPA’s that there will be no adjustments after that date even if the audit isn’t finished.  We never guaranteed "no changes", but there was a lot of pressure to hit all the material and high risk areas before that date.  Companies don’t like to "take back" an earnings release. Bill

Response:

The American Institute of Certified Public Accountants publishes an annual survey of the financial reports of 600 companies called "Accounting Trends and Techniques."  I do not have a copy at home, but I think there is a table summarizing the dates of the auditor’s opinions.  Try your library — a printed copy costs more than $100 [if they are still printing it rather than making it available on line for a "nominal" fee.] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks I don’t know where you would find it, but I would look at the earnings announcement date as the "release" date.  Most public companies try and get informal assurance from the CPA’s that there will be no adjustments after that date even if the audit isn’t finished.  We never guaranteed "no changes", but there was a lot of pressure to hit all the material and high risk areas before that date.  Companies don’t like to "take back" an earnings release. Bill

Response:

The American Institute of Certified Public Accountants publishes an annual survey of the financial reports of 600 companies called "Accounting Trends and Techniques."  I do not have a copy at home, but I think there is a table summarizing the dates of the auditor’s opinions.  Try your library — a printed copy costs more than $100 [if they are still printing it rather than making it available on line for a "nominal" fee.]

That’s a really good reference for all sorts of reasons.  Probably you would have to make a physical visit to your library to peek at it — my university library used to take it, but it was on the reference shelves and not for circulation (except the older years).  (to Band): While you are there, I bet the reference librarian could help you determine whether & where there is a study such as the one you are looking for. — All kinds of strange things go on there. Everybody knows that if you head into the Republic of Texas, anything can happen.  That’s why we all stay here in Colorado.  (Kathleen Ann Goonan) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am trying to find research on the lag between fiscal dates and dates the actual audited numbers hit the public in the US.  For example, a company’s fiscal date is December 31, 2002 but the audit isn’t released until March 3, 2003.  Does anyone know where such a study may be posted online? Thanks I don’t know where you would find it, but I would look at the earnings announcement date as the "release" date.  Most public companies try and get informal assurance from the CPA’s that there will be no adjustments after that date even if the audit isn’t finished.  We never guaranteed "no changes", but there was a lot of pressure to hit all the material and high risk areas before that date.  Companies don’t like to "take back" an earnings release. Bill

Response:

Question:

Thanx, updated  the link. Still a good service for sellers…gets rid of the credit card fees (for now anyway). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Better change the info on that link. The $10 promotion expired a couple of days ago. JAS Try C2IT/AOL Quickcash. http://dbruce.hn.org:8001/ebay/c2it.htm I created this link for one of my auctions .  They charge no fees (trying to take on Paypal) and give you $10 just for joining. If you take a credit card payment they charge you nothing.  They only charge for international transactions right now.  This month they are giving you $25 just for using the international transfers. Definitely an attractive alternative to Paypal (got rid of my Premium membership) or Ebay payments. Should I use ebays payment feature?   If not, what would you suggest? If you don’t already have a merchant account with a credit card processsor then you will need to select between Ebay’s payment processing or Paypal. Neither has particularly good rates but they are decent rates for those not listed by Dunn and Bradstreet.  And you all need to beware that all those rates are going up about .01 to .02 points next month. Start with your less expensive items as serious prices are not going to be seen while your Ebay rating is low.  Contrary to what others have said, one can still start selling with a low or even zero rating, but as the people perceive the risk as being higher they are only willing to place small dollar amounts at risk.  And if you put the price out low enough there are always some who will take a risk for a great deal. Also, find a server to host your pics as the Ebay pic service, in my humble opinion, sucks big time. Happy Trails Johpa

Response:

Try C2IT/AOL Quickcash… They charge no fees (trying to take on Paypal) and give you $10 just for joining.

Sure, and Paypal started the same way.  Here is another little tidbit from C2IT: "Your credit card company may assess a finance charge and fee each time you send money." There ain’t no free lunch except when companies are trying to get you hooked. No different than when the banks would give you a toaster oven to open a new account. And beware, all credit/debit fees are going up next month across the board from a fee increase announced by Merchant Services, the consortium that runs VISA and Mastercard. Happy Trails Johpa

Response:

Better change the info on that link. The $10 promotion expired a couple of days ago. JAS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try C2IT/AOL Quickcash. http://dbruce.hn.org:8001/ebay/c2it.htm I created this link for one of my auctions .  They charge no fees (trying to take on Paypal) and give you $10 just for joining. If you take a credit card payment they charge you nothing.  They only charge for international transactions right now.  This month they are giving you $25 just for using the international transfers. Definitely an attractive alternative to Paypal (got rid of my Premium membership) or Ebay payments. Should I use ebays payment feature?   If not, what would you suggest? If you don’t already have a merchant account with a credit card processsor then you will need to select between Ebay’s payment processing or Paypal. Neither has particularly good rates but they are decent rates for those not listed by Dunn and Bradstreet.  And you all need to beware that all those rates are going up about .01 to .02 points next month. Start with your less expensive items as serious prices are not going to be seen while your Ebay rating is low.  Contrary to what others have said, one can still start selling with a low or even zero rating, but as the people perceive the risk as being higher they are only willing to place small dollar amounts at risk.  And if you put the price out low enough there are always some who will take a risk for a great deal. Also, find a server to host your pics as the Ebay pic service, in my humble opinion, sucks big time. Happy Trails Johpa

Response:

Try C2IT/AOL Quickcash. http://dbruce.hn.org:8001/ebay/c2it.htm I created this link for one of my auctions .  They charge no fees (trying to take on Paypal) and give you $10 just for joining.

***This isn’t exactly correct. You get a $10 rebate after you have conducted a transaction. Their inexact semantics don’t clarify if this is for the <first time seller or the <first time, newly registeredbuyer If you take a credit card payment they charge you nothing.  They only charge for international transactions right now.  This month they are giving you $25 just for using the international transfers.

***Again, not exactly correct. The recipient is charged nothing(reminisicent of the original PayPal), the sender is charged for a cash transaction aginst his credit card, or whatever his bank’s service charge is for an electronic withdrawal. Definitely an attractive alternative to Paypal (got rid of my Premium membership) or Ebay payments.

****It SEEMS atractive at present but with inevitably be changed once(if) the subscriber base grows to a profitable level. Once legislation is finally in effect forcing all banks to maintain real time accounting, cheap personal account to personal account transfers will spell the demise of all these fly-by-night Internet services. ***There’s still time to buy PayPal stock and ride the rollar coaster if eBay stock’s volatility is too tame for you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Should I use ebays payment feature?   If not, what would you suggest? If you don’t already have a merchant account with a credit card processsor then you will need to select between Ebay’s payment processing or Paypal. Neither has particularly good rates but they are decent rates for those not listed by Dunn and Bradstreet.  And you all need to beware that all those rates are going up about .01 to .02 points next month. Start with your less expensive items as serious prices are not going to be seen while your Ebay rating is low.  Contrary to what others have said, one can still start selling with a low or even zero rating, but as the people perceive the risk as being higher they are only willing to place small dollar amounts at risk.  And if you put the price out low enough there are always some who will take a risk for a great deal. Also, find a server to host your pics as the Ebay pic service, in my humble opinion, sucks big time. Happy Trails Johpa

Response:

Try C2IT/AOL Quickcash. http://dbruce.hn.org:8001/ebay/c2it.htm I created this link for one of my auctions .  They charge no fees (trying to take on Paypal) and give you $10 just for joining. If you take a credit card payment they charge you nothing.  They only charge for international transactions right now.  This month they are giving you $25 just for using the international transfers. Definitely an attractive alternative to Paypal (got rid of my Premium membership) or Ebay payments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Should I use ebays payment feature?   If not, what would you suggest? If you don’t already have a merchant account with a credit card processsor then you will need to select between Ebay’s payment processing or Paypal.  Neither has particularly good rates but they are decent rates for those not listed by Dunn and Bradstreet.  And you all need to beware that all those rates are going up about .01 to .02 points next month. Start with your less expensive items as serious prices are not going to be seen while your Ebay rating is low.  Contrary to what others have said, one can still start selling with a low or even zero rating, but as the people perceive the risk as being higher they are only willing to place small dollar amounts at risk.  And if you put the price out low enough there are always some who will take a risk for a great deal. Also, find a server to host your pics as the Ebay pic service, in my humble opinion, sucks big time. Happy Trails Johpa

Response:

with PayPal a slightly cheaper close second. Billpoint is cheaper if you’re selling pricier items. I sold two $400ish items last week and the PayPal fee was much higher, even adding in the always-mysterious 1/2 percent additional Billpoint fee.

How do you figure that? Unless you have merchant rate with BP and not PP The BillPoint .5% "deposit fee" just makes the base rate sound cheaper than PayPal. PayPal is actually slightly cheaper in every case (BillPoint .5% deposit fee added in): PayPal Merchant Rate 2.2% + 30

Question:

Fact of the matter: I PREFER GAUGES. So if any of you engineers are thinking about adding an idiot light in place of the GAS gauge, don’t. I’m willing to bet, if I usually, ran 40 psi on oil, like my Miata does. Then I saw it move down to ten psi, I would have had the problem fixed before it leaked all over my clutch. But that’s engineers for you.

thats usually the accountants fault… they are the ones that decide how much a vehicle costs, and where to scrimp. and yes- lights are cheaper than gauges. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Penny wise and dollar foolish. I’ll include the foolish American public who goes back to dealer saying this gauge keeps jumping all over the place, fix it. Only because we’re off topic.

Response:

I had a 87 civic hf and loved it. sent it to the grave yard when the engine blew a rod at 225000 miles. still got the wheels. i would fix the clutch .

Response:

Ouch. With that story, I’m almost afraid to take it to a mechanic. What was the cost to find out what the problem was? Is the tranny housing someting which can be welded to or patched in some way? I had to get a two fenders which had cracked with some help from a few kids.. That was not an easy job. That was also a year and a half ago. I got all sorts of bull about how it’s an old car, nobody buys parts, so we don’t keep them in the salvage yard. Last question, are there any interchangable trannies for the CRX, maybe the Civic? Assuming that’s the case, of course.. — "WARNING: Armed with a dangerous mind"

Response:

HogDoctor, makes perfect sense. I thought you might have been an Agricultural veterinarian. Yes, the idiot light would come on steady if I let it go down to the add three quarts level. But a hard, usually left turn would set it off at the add a quart.  Sometimes I would let it go because I was going to change the oil in a day or so. But only on the hard corner lights.  The last week, when the light would come on when I left a stop light or what ever, there was no doubt in my mind to add oil. And I’m about a thousand miles from my next oil change. Fact of the matter: I PREFER GAUGES. So if any of you engineers are thinking about adding an idiot light in place of the GAS gauge, don’t. I’m willing to bet, if I usually, ran 40 psi on oil, like my Miata does. Then I saw it move down to ten psi, I would have had the problem fixed before it leaked all over my clutch. But that’s engineers for you. Penny wise and dollar foolish. I’ll include the foolish American public who goes back to dealer saying this gauge keeps jumping all over the place, fix it. Only because we’re off topic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s the oil -level- when this happens? The dipstick would show the oil at the "Add a quart" level. I’d throw in a quart, or change the oil and everything was fine. I was down more in the neighborhood of ‘add three quarts’ when the light would come on. I know, I’m setting a bad example, but it was leaking and burning oil at an alarming rate. HogDr    SENS   BS#123 Would you mind explaining your signature? I’m really curious. Well, I’m a recovered auto mechanic, now I work standing up rather than bent over an engine. (my back is much better for it)  I work on motorcycles now, and I was given the nickname ‘hogdoctor’, so that’s my sig (and my plate).  I drift about many internet groups, usenet, e-mail digests, etc, and I also meet up with the group members for local gatherings, campouts, and group rides, and I’ve learned that once having ridden with a member of the group, you become a member and it becomes part of your title, SENS being south east net scum (florida area) and BS being brotherhood of the slug (long story) from the northwest rainy corner of the US. It’s locked into my mail program so it shows up with every outgoing e-mail.            HD Dealer Technician at your service……           My Employer’s site: http://www.wishd.com    My site: http://www.execpc.com/~patrickz/patricksite.htm

– "WARNING: Armed with a dangerous mind"

Response:

It’s not on the work order for the most recent clutch job or the one I had done shortly after I bought the car ~ 60,000 miles along with a timing belt. The first clutch failed (one of the springs in the clutch popped out and jammed in between the I’m about a month late and 10,000 miles over the warranty on the last one. I guess I answered my first question, yes I should ask.

Uh oh…that may not be too pretty.  I had pretty much almost the identical thing happen to my CRX, though my clutch spring didn’t break off as soon as yours did.  But nonetheless, the spring on the clutch disk busted off and made the most wrenching noise at the time and the clutch wouldn’t let go since the spring was caught between the flywheel and the disk.  After I went in and replaced the clutch and main seal, everything was fine for a while but I would notice the clutch slipping, but I let it go as it needed to wear in. But the thing kept slipping and so I thought maybe I effed up the main seal and oil was leaking on the disk.  So I took it to a guy and we pulled the tranny out and figured out that (and here’s the bottom line of my story) when the spring busted off, it pressed the clutch disk against the tranny housing where the main input shaft comes out.  It wore a couple of millimeters off of the aluminum housing, which hugs the main shaft.  This was allowing the tranny oil to spin out of the tranny and throwing it all over the disk. Slowly and over time, the disk got soaked.  The only way to fix it was another tranny from the bone yard.  I don’t have the car anymore but I still have the original tranny in my garage. I’m not saying that this is what happened to you.  This is what happened to me, and it may be the same scenario that you might need to check out. Hopefully, it’s just a main seal.  Hmm…the plot thickens. -dave.

Response:

If that is the problem (sounds right) it is basically a clutch job.  Often the main seal is replaced at the same time and normally the throw-out bearing as well. Is this something I should have to ask the mechanic to do? Or do they just do it? I would expect the throw-out bearing to be part of the job, but not the main seal.

As you mention below, you want to find out what they are going to do before they do it.   Replacing the main seal isn’t a routine part of doing the clutch but some shops do it.  It really is a judgement call.  I do worry about whether they might do it wrong and end up with a problem you didn’t have before. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are cheap parts and easy to replace once you are in there.  You will want a new clutch disk if your old one is soaked. Did they replace the seal when they did the clutch before?  It seems like a mistake was made either in not doing it when they had the chance or in doing it wrong. It’s not on the work order for the most recent clutch job or the one I had done shortly after I bought the car ~ 60,000 miles along with a timing belt. The first clutch failed (one of the springs in the clutch popped out and jammed in between the a month late and 10,000 miles over the warranty on the last one. I guess I answered my first question, yes I should ask. so if it is the main seal, what am I looking at cost wise?  I kinda feared that as possibility, however, not being extremely familiar with the engine I wasn’t sure of where the seal was. If it’s expensive, I can at least say: I got 90,000 miles out of it. I beat the hell out of cars. First and probably last car I owned that would run 115 and still got around 40 miles per gallon when I drove like everybody else. Thanks again. possibly your rear main seal went, which is between your crank and the flywheel, and it’s spewing onto the clutch. the shifter flying around could be bad motor mounts. -dave.

Response:

If that is the problem (sounds right) it is basically a clutch job.  Often the main seal is replaced at the same time and normally the throw-out bearing as well.

Is this something I should have to ask the mechanic to do? Or do they just do it? I would expect the throw-out bearing to be part of the job, but not the main seal. They are cheap parts and easy to replace once you are in there.  You will want a new clutch disk if your old one is soaked. Did they replace the seal when they did the clutch before?  It seems like a mistake was made either in not doing it when they had the chance or in doing it wrong.

It’s not on the work order for the most recent clutch job or the one I had done shortly after I bought the car ~ 60,000 miles along with a timing belt. The first clutch failed (one of the springs in the clutch popped out and jammed in between the a month late and 10,000 miles over the warranty on the last one. I guess I answered my first question, yes I should ask. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so if it is the main seal, what am I looking at cost wise?  I kinda feared that as possibility, however, not being extremely familiar with the engine I wasn’t sure of where the seal was. If it’s expensive, I can at least say: I got 90,000 miles out of it. I beat the hell out of cars. First and probably last car I owned that would run 115 and still got around 40 miles per gallon when I drove like everybody else. Thanks again. possibly your rear main seal went, which is between your crank and the flywheel, and it’s spewing onto the clutch. the shifter flying around could be bad motor mounts. -dave.

– "WARNING: Armed with a dangerous mind"

Response:

What’s the oil -level- when this happens? The dipstick would show the oil at the "Add a quart" level. I’d throw in a quart, or change the oil and everything was fine.

I was down more in the neighborhood of ‘add three quarts’ when the light would come on. I know, I’m setting a bad example, but it was leaking and burning oil at an alarming rate. I wish I was as niave as some of my exes,  ….I had one who didn’t change the oil for two years. Boy the sludge that came out of that thing.

I was an auto mechanic in Boulder for several years (upscale college town) so I saw quite a few rather expensive cars with seized motors driven by students without a clue beyond the key and the gas cap. (and daddy’s gold card ready at hand) HogDr    SENS   BS#123 Would you mind explaining your signature? I’m really curious.

Well, I’m a recovered auto mechanic, now I work standing up rather than bent over an engine. (my back is much better for it)  I work on motorcycles now, and I was given the nickname ‘hogdoctor’, so that’s my sig (and my plate).  I drift about many internet groups, usenet, e-mail digests, etc, and I also meet up with the group members for local gatherings, campouts, and group rides, and I’ve learned that once having ridden with a member of the group, you become a member and it becomes part of your title, SENS being south east net scum (florida area) and BS being brotherhood of the slug (long story) from the northwest rainy corner of the US. It’s locked into my mail program so it shows up with every outgoing e-mail.            HD Dealer Technician at your service……           My Employer’s site: http://www.wishd.com    My site: http://www.execpc.com/~patrickz/patricksite.htm

Response:

What’s the oil -level- when this happens?

The dipstick would show the oil at the "Add a quart" level. I’d throw in a quart, or change the oil and everything was fine. My 85 burned about a quart to every tank of fuel, and when the oil light came on in hard left corners, that told me the oil was low.  Could also be a sign of a plugged oil pump suction screen.

I guess that means pulling the oil pan to check it. In which case I might as well be replacing it.  I noticed the RPMs would rise, but the car wasn’t moving any faster if I stepped on it hard. The clutch was slipping.  That generates a tremendous amount of heat and can get the flywheel and crankshaft hot enough to melt the rear main seal.

I hope not. But with my luck… Once that seal blows, you’ve got quite the mess to fix,

So I’ve noticed. not to mention the damage done to the flywheel and crank from the excessive heat.  You may need to replace the flywheel as well as the rest of the clutch assy and rear main seal.

Figured as much. I’ll get the car to a mechanic when I get back from my next business trip. I’m going to use my other car. . And one added twist. If you let off the gas, in second or fourth gear, there’s a noticeable movement of the shifter. It moves forward, about an inch. If you step on the gas again, the stick will move back. Sounds like a blasted motor mount or two. Probably not related to the first problem.

That’s good. Shouldn’t be too expensive. I’ll have it checked. Thanks for your help in advance. I made a bet when I got her that I could take her to 200k. You can still get there, it’s just going to cost you more money than if you would have gotten it fixed when it first started slipping.

That’s the thing, this all happened, with the exception of the idiot light, in less than 24 hours. Since I live a good distance from my work,  walking or getting a ride isn’t an option. A cab would probably cost me more than fixing the car and getting a ride from someone else, wasn’t gonna happen. Especially not on a friday. Pay more attention to the car, your wallet will thank you.

I wish I was as niave as some of my exes, you step on the gas and it goes. Sooner or later, the gauge shows you need gas, you put more in. Then one day, there’s smoke and stuff. So it’s time to get a new car. I had one who didn’t change the oil for two years. Boy the sludge that came out of that thing. . — HogDr    SENS   BS#123

Would you mind explaining your signature? I’m really curious. Thanks again for your response            HD Dealer Technician at your service……           My Employer’s site: http://www.wishd.com    My site: http://www.execpc.com/~patrickz/patricksite.htm

– "WARNING: Armed with a dangerous mind"

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possibly your rear main seal went, which is between your crank and the flywheel, and it’s spewing onto the clutch. the shifter flying around could be bad motor mounts. -dave.

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so if it is the main seal, what am I looking at cost wise?  I kinda feared that as possibility, however, not being extremely familiar with the engine I wasn’t sure of where the seal was. If it’s expensive, I can at least say: I got 90,000 miles out of it. I beat the hell out of cars. First and probably last car I owned that would run 115 and still got around 40 miles per gallon when I drove like everybody else. Thanks again. possibly your rear main seal went, which is between your crank and the flywheel, and it’s spewing onto the clutch. the shifter flying around could be bad motor mounts. -dave.

– "WARNING: Armed with a dangerous mind"

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If that is the problem (sounds right) it is basically a clutch job.  Often the main seal is replaced at the same time and normally the throw-out bearing as well.  They are cheap parts and easy to replace once you are in there.  You will want a new clutch disk if your old one is soaked. Did they replace the seal when they did the clutch before?  It seems like a mistake was made either in not doing it when they had the chance or in doing it wrong.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so if it is the main seal, what am I looking at cost wise?  I kinda feared that as possibility, however, not being extremely familiar with the engine I wasn’t sure of where the seal was. If it’s expensive, I can at least say: I got 90,000 miles out of it. I beat the hell out of cars. First and probably last car I owned that would run 115 and still got around 40 miles per gallon when I drove like everybody else. Thanks again. possibly your rear main seal went, which is between your crank and the flywheel, and it’s spewing onto the clutch. the shifter flying around could be bad motor mounts. -dave.

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In the past year or so, I’ve noticed that the idiot light for the oil comes on prior to the oil change on hard corners. Recently, in the last week or so, the oil light has been coming on during normal driving.

What’s the oil -level- when this happens? My 85 burned about a quart to every tank of fuel, and when the oil light came on in hard left corners, that told me the oil was low.  Could also be a sign of a plugged oil pump suction screen.  I noticed the RPMs would rise, but the car wasn’t moving any faster if I stepped on it hard.

The clutch was slipping.  That generates a tremendous amount of heat and can get the flywheel and crankshaft hot enough to melt the rear main seal.  Once that seal blows, you’ve got quite the mess to fix, not to mention the damage done to the flywheel and crank from the excessive heat.  You may need to replace the flywheel as well as the rest of the clutch assy and rear main seal. . And one added twist. If you let off the gas, in second or fourth gear, there’s a noticeable movement of the shifter. It moves forward, about an inch. If you step on the gas again, the stick will move back.

Sounds like a blasted motor mount or two. Probably not related to the first problem. Thanks for your help in advance. I made a bet when I got her that I could take her to 200k.

You can still get there, it’s just going to cost you more money than if you would have gotten it fixed when it first started slipping. Pay more attention to the car, your wallet will thank you. — HogDr    SENS   BS#123            HD Dealer Technician at your service……           My Employer’s site: http://www.wishd.com    My site: http://www.execpc.com/~patrickz/patricksite.htm

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I’ve been a foreign guy for sometime, and a honda guy for a while. I know this is lengthy, but I’d appreciate your help. I’ve had an 87 CRX for just shy of 3 years, 90,000 miles. The car has 144,000 on her. In the past year or so, I’ve noticed that the idiot light for the oil comes on prior to the oil change on hard corners. Recently, in the last week or so, the oil light has been coming on during normal driving.  Since it’s only been 1800-2000 miles since the last change, I added a quart and drove as normal. Last night, I noticed a bucking when I started out. No big deal, I figured I’d wait until this weekend to investigate, because everything else seemed fine. However, on my way to work this morning, I had this really weird clutch pedal feeling. Like the cable was on a spring, pulling it in as I stepped on the clutch. Also, when I released the clutch, it seemed to be really slow to engage. The clutch has about 25,000 miles on it. There’s also a sound, which I can’t quite describe when you decelerate with the clutch out. But not braking. The closest I can describe the sound would be a wire brushes on a washboard. Definitely metal on metal. About halfway to work, 15 miles or so, I noticed the RPMs would rise, but the car wasn’t moving any faster if I stepped on it hard.  About 25 miles into work, I noticed smoke from under the hood. When I pulled into the garage at work, I popped the hood. I couldn’t determine the source of the smoke, but there was quite a bit. Going home from work, same thing. And one added twist. If you let off the gas, in second or fourth gear, there’s a noticeable movement of the shifter. It moves forward, about an inch. If you step on the gas again, the stick will move back. For the first time since I’ve owned the car, she marked my driveway.  I realize after the amount of time I’ve had her, she may feel territorial. But marking my driveway is a whole ‘nother story. After a small amount of investigating, I can say, she’s leaking oil. Lots of oil. The transmission tunnel, the exhaust pipe, various engine parts are covered with oil. I can’t see why the shifter moves, the tranny and engine are pretty solid. If you grab and shake, the car shakes with it. I can’t see any loose connections. Is it possible, that I blew a gasket near the flywheel which is pouring oil on my clutch and causing these problems? I was also wondering if my pilot bearing could be causing the funny clutch, and I’m only now noticing the oil? Except, she’s never leaked oil. My driveway’s always been clean. What’s the likelihood? If not, any ideas as to what it might be? Thanks for your help in advance. I made a bet when I got her that I could take her to 200k. I really don’t want to loose. — "WARNING: Armed with a dangerous mind"

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Question:

Thanks JC, I appreciate your jocular insight into my quandry.  Seems like it really would be stupid of me not to put out the effort to complete my degree. I’m starting to look into programs in Seattle and the opportunity I might have for scholarships/grants/loans.  I have also heard of a program called CLEP where you pay your tuition but can study at your own pace and take one final test for the credits.  Not sure if it is offered in the Seattle are but I’m going to look into it. Thanks again! Becky To reply by email send the monky on his way!

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Unfortunately, the "paper" does matter. I started going to night school in 1992 and finished in late 97 in a non-accounting related field (I am looking for a system that’s why I am here.) and have doubled my income in that time. I am not smarter than I was, I could have learned everything on my own (I changed careers and knew nothing of what I do now) but, I would be going up against people who had degrees and were younger and probably would have worked for less. The sense of accomplishment was something I didn’t expect but, received and I am better able to hold up an intelligent conversation in a room of snobs. The degree is expected — the experience gives you the job. Apparently, if you don’t have a degree you are not motivated. I say do it and good luck! — Thanks, JC Haven

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question that I have. I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager" and the like. I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning, prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of other accounting functions. The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this: In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Thanks for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

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<HTML You might be surprised to learn that your message is not possible to read, directly, inside the Agent newsreader, or many other newsreaders and is being ignored by many of the folks here. We can turn on HTML easily enough

Todd, I’m reading & posting via deja.com.  If you know of a way to turn on HTML in deja.com I would appreciate your passing it along. The only way I have of reading HTML stuff now it to copy & paste to Word, save it to a file & reopen as HTML.  I only do that if an article really gets my attention, which is not often. Thanks Jim Hudspeth Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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<HTML

You might be surprised to learn that your message is not possible to read, directly, inside the Agent newsreader, or many other newsreaders and is being ignored by many of the folks here. We can turn on HTML easily enough but this is mostly a plain text discussion forum.  We’ve had distasteful experiences with HTML messages on usenet because hackers and spammers often put functions in the HTML pages that cause problems for the reader, install cookies, upload information to websites, etc.  generally cause a nuisance. Who needs that?   This is a discussion forum.   Todd

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It’s not that bad.  Have you considered doing your degree via correspondance? Its in your own time so you don’t have to attend lectures after work.  You can finish it in 2 years by studying 3 semesters per year. ie over the summer.  I enrolled in this post grad course mid 98. I am half way through and are amazed at how fast the time is flying.  Its recognised by the major professional bodies ASCPA and ICAA and it is highly recognised internationally.  There are a lot of overseas students studying this particular course.  Its with University of Southern Queensland. VIsit their website  www.usq.edu.au. They recognise any relevant industry experience for enrolling. I’m sure you would easily qualify with your experience. best of luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question that I have. I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager" and the like. I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning, prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of other accounting functions. The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this: In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Thanks for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

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At your age, you are competing against those who have both a degree and experience.  

That’s my main concern!  I once hired an outstanding candidate…only to be let down because of the individual’s personal problems that interfered with performance.  

That has happened to me more than once.  I’ve never been afraid to hire someone with more credentials than I – my goal has always been for my department to run smoothly, efficiently and produce timely, quality information.  This makes us all look good to our superiors.  I’ve had a couple folks working for me over the years that must have slept through their college years or have no retention for basic accounting facts.  I guess you can get stuck with folks like that (great resumes, good references and good interviewees) that really don’t have a grasp on the hands-on day to day work required. Thanks again for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

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It sounds as though your experience has been quite phenomenal.&nbsp; Where are you moving to?

Back to the Seattle area. I had been there for about 15 years and have only been away a year and a half. I hate to sound snobby or crude, but I’m just trying to be honest.

Oh not at all! I asked for honest opinions and yours is definately appreciated! Can you pursue both a rewarding job and a degree simultaneously?

I think my spirit is willing but I don’t know if there are enough hours in the day – I also have an 8 year old son and am a single mother. it would be worth sacrificing 12 months to remove any and all doubt and secure your future for he next 20-30 years.

I surely can’t argue with that one.  Someone also said that I may be able to get a position with a company that has either tuition reimbursement or assistance – seems like that’s the best idea so far! Thank you everyone for your thoughts – I’m moving in another month and will let you know what opportunities unfold if you’d like to know. Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

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Out of own experience (I am 48 and have next week exams in intermediate stage from AAT) your papers count a lot by new jobs. But naturally, if you have an exam and you are not good you loose your job very quickly again. Its also fun going back to school and learning keeps you young.

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Curvywoman asked the group alt.accounting : (snip) In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa?

In most cases that do not involve entry-level positions, it’s pretty much a combination of the two, and it really depends on the organization as to which is given more weight.  There are some employers that will absolutely require certain credentials whether or not they are really needed for the position, while there are others who are willing to give more consideration to previous work experience. All else being equal, degrees and professional certifications are likely to open more doors, and the positions requiring them tend to pay more. Like many things in life, it’s really a trade-off in deciding whether the investment in time and energy is worth the potential payoff.  I would suggest networking with others in the profession to ask their opinion, and try to meet with persons with and without degrees to get different opinions.

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Yes it is becoming increasingly important to have the degree.  If you are planning a move I would consider it even more important.  Here’s why.  First increasingly companies are using credentials to screen prospective job candidates.  Resumes for those that don’t have a degree or other credentials are not getting past the HR department and into the hands of the manager who will actually hire.  Indeed larger companies are using HR software that scans in resumes and will then only select those that meet the minimum requirements for the position, usually expressed with degree requirements. Secondly, while I believe experience is more important in upper level positions, getting in the door is the hard part.  If you are being screened out your best bet to get into an interview is by recognition.  If you have spent a career in a locality where you have made a name for yourself your ability to move between jobs may not be a problem.  They know you and have confidence in your abilities.  However in a new state you will need to re-establish yourself.  And without starting over that ‘piece of paper’ will make that a whole lot easier than without. Finally your income and income potential will only increase with that degree. My advice go for it. Don   Hi all,   I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question   that I have.   I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have   held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager"   and the like.   I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned   up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting   software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning,   prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns   (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of   other accounting functions.   The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am   starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at   night.   My questions are this:     In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than   experience or vice versa?   I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better   served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was   tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past   experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and   rewarding (financially and otherwise).   Thanks for your thoughts!   Becky   Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal….   I’d better get busy!!!!!!

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Hi all, I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question that I have. I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager" and the like. I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning, prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of other accounting functions. The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this:   In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Thanks for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

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Yes, unfortunately, the "piece of paper" is important. I too have lots of experience but had problems getting interviews for jobs I was qualified to do and for a decent salary, mainly because I lacked the degree.  Generally I found that people like to see the experience and will hire a non-degreed person because they don’t want to pay for the degree but figure they are getting an equivalent person. That type of employer is seldom pro-employee, in my opinion and should be avoided.  It took me 8 1/2 yrs of night school, but I finally got my degree last year at the age of 42 (double major in accounting and business admin). I also got a master certificate in MS Office and have doubled my hourly rate from what it was 6 yrs ago, and I only work part time, now in public accounting.  I could earn even more if I went full time and sat for the CPA or CMA exams and had the desire for a "real career". In other words…GO FOR IT! If you want a lifelong career and be able to always find a job, you should have the degree. I would try to find a job now and get your employer to pay for your classes, many will. That way you keep your skills fresh and save money. Good Luck! ….The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.

I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this: In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Becky

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I said in my previous post, this is BEGINNING to make sense (my viewpoint).  You are way ahead of me on this. However, I have been around long enough to remember when a person who is now a respected local stockbrokers went bankrupt as a "service bureau" provider. He had teamed up with a guy who later became an office supply vendor (and one of my clients for a time), bought what was then a large computer, and sold processing to the locals.  As far as I know, they did an OK job, both in terms of marketing and service, however the market changed and they couldn’t. I also had my own "experience" in the early 80s.  I got involved with a former radio shack guy in a deal involving a "Zenix" system (Radio Shack’s version of unix).  I needed a general ledger system for client accounting, and he wanted to resell excess capacity at retail.  He was to provide computer expertice and marketing.  I was to provide office space and money. At the "end of the day", he blew his terminal away with a 12 guage, and I found myself the sole owner of a system I did not know how to run. Let’s talk some more. Jim

## … and I also remember when it was shoved down our throats that if we didn’t accept the paperless office concept in the form of microfiche for all record retention, that we would be left behind in the race … and I also remember winding up and administering the Bankruptcy of some who did and others who were the first with the latest …  so always remember the tortoise and the hare … From one who knows Peter French Australia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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At the "end of the day", he blew his terminal away with a 12 guage, and I found myself the sole owner of a system I did not know how to run. Let’s talk some more. Jim

Great post!   And I know exactly what you mean.   How foolish it would be to conceptualize webserver-based accounting dialtone as a "capital investment" to sell excess capacity in a server-to-customer connection… The history of the last two decades proves it doesn’t matter how much money is spent on a central installation.  It isn’t the raw horsepower or even the quality of the application (Which have been crappy anyway, on big iron) There are many reasons users will come to webserver based accounting systems… the biggest reason is that nobody is designing LAN-based client-server systems anymore.  Webserver-Browser just works better and is better techonology. More webserver GLs will be installed on LANs than on public ASPs or ISPs..  come on guys get the picture!  It’s not even that clear to the market yet, that there will be ANY role for public GL dialtone. (It is clear to me, for one, but most will not agree …) The venture I propose, open to anybody who wishes to participate, was to pool our money, research time and other resources to get this technology under control and stop drifting helplessly in the currents. The basic picture I see is that powerful and energetic software companies like Great Plains, SAP, Oracle, and Microsoft are working overtime (both on technology and ideology) producing crossbreeds of their existing products and elements of XML, browser front ends, or whatever suits their fancy and protects their existing base. CPAs and accountants perform a serious role in the economy and we know our users needs and the needs of society.  It is pathetic to see them naively waiting for "the invisible hand" of the market to provide tomorrows’ software environment for CPAs.  We’ve come so far down this road that we are on the eve of losing our franchise entirely, as the orderly, manual assembly of financial statements is set to be replaced by a drill-down XML financial reporting envirnoment hosted by online brokers and computer companies. Look at the large number of mediocre FS writeup products, and the last 15 years evolution in the income tax prep. software market. We haven’t got time to repeat that mistake in internetworked accounting and e-commerce environment. I again call for members to buck up $50 or $100 and start funding some research, to identify the XML DTDs, electronic banking protocols, online commerce standards we want to use.  This is primarily an act of perception not an act of creation or of politically influencing other actors in the software market.   We should articulate the goals and objectives we wish to achieve, identify the questions that need answers, and each member should perform research under rigorous standards and deadlines or contribute in cash to pay for somebody to perform those tests. We need to quickly and effectively identify the software products and repositories of open source software code that can be picked up and used by our clients and staff to get the following, long denied functions that NONE of todays accounting software vendors is providing to us or our clients at prices below $50,000 * send invoices electronically to our customers * send electronic po’s to our suppliers * purchase items electronically and have them automatically    integrated into inventory * make an electronic payment without paying 5 bucks in fees, * import and export transactions in standard format usable    by other accounting software (don’t tell me about comma    delimited and other unreliable "placebo" technologies) * accessible remotely by off-site employees and service     providers like CPA firms * open software interface.  Now that there are 10 million people     who know VBA or other programming languages this is long     overdue.   All of these things should be available in shrinkwrap products below $500, and certainly will be available in the next two years.  But don’t expect them to come from MS, Intuit or other currently dominant software companies with a pattern of selling millions of copies with annual upgrades, closed and proprietary databases, standalone one-copy-per-customer business models. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to   be a new era, for sure.) Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA Since there’s only 5 or 10 CPAs in the country who understand or care about webserver based accounting services, why don’t we form a company, a business plan and establish a franchise?

Todd, As I said in my previous post, this is BEGINNING to make sense (my viewpoint).  You are way ahead of me on this. However, I have been around long enough to remember when a person who is now a respected local stockbrokers went bankrupt as a "service bureau" provider. He had teamed up with a guy who later became an office supply vendor (and one of my clients for a time), bought what was then a large computer, and sold processing to the locals.  As far as I know, they did an OK job, both in terms of marketing and service, however the market changed and they couldn’t. I also had my own "experience" in the early 80s.  I got involved with a former radio shack guy in a deal involving a "Zenix" system (Radio Shack’s version of unix).  I needed a general ledger system for client accounting, and he wanted to resell excess capacity at retail.  He was to provide computer expertice and marketing.  I was to provide office space and money. At the "end of the day", he blew his terminal away with a 12 guage, and I found myself the sole owner of a system I did not know how to run. Let’s talk some more. Jim

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 (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to   be a new era, for sure.) Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA

Since there’s only 5 or 10 CPAs in the country who understand or care about webserver based accounting services, why don’t we form a company, a business plan and establish a franchise?   I am totally serious about this and ready to work full time, 80 hours a week on it if you and any other CPAs are interested in this.  There are numerous other highly visible and competent individuals on usenet and webforums. Why do I need or care about you other CPAs?  Because  * your opinion on this is a reality check for me,  * your talents and resources would increase the odds of success, and  * because working with others in standard ways is essential to succeed in internetworked accounting The business plan I have in mind, would be to leverage our visibility and names to start a company.  First we would discuss and agree on a single, clear message and strategy, then we would execute it.  Perhaps something along these lines: 1. design a business model which provides technology and knowledge to CPAs and other service providers in exchange for money (such as down payment plus recurring franchise fees).  It is going to take a lot of work to identify emerging standards for e-payments, XML DTDs for accounting, EDI interfaces, and other hard problems of interoperating with existing systems. 2. whatever our business model is, we should continually research and adjust our model to ensure the model is workable.  for example I described a company in #1 above which is basically a knowledge and standards clearing- house.  To be successful it would have to have hardheaded management, and the employees or partners would have to be highly productive. The business model would have to identify problems, people to solve them, deadlines, and success criteria, and pay the workers real money. 3. obviously the venture would have to design a website to present its idea, inform potential franchisees and win their enrollment, and yes, collect payments from them. The venture would also need a website as infrastructure for communication and collaboration among its members, for both the management and software technoloogy discussions. 4. I presume the venture would build, buy, or lease the powerful webserver-based accounting software that we all know is possible and just over the horizon.  I honestly believe that we might be able to build it ourselves, given the programming talent available in this country and our above-average ability to define the specs and priorities. If so, the venture might establish a network presence for development of GL Dialtone software, or deployment of the webserver-based GL itself, if it is licensed from an existing vendor. But even if we don’t write software we and our members might do very well as front ends, for one or more service providers like BizTone, Great Plains, IBM, or Oracle. The thing to do might be wait for somebody (Biztone, NetLedger, GPS, etc) to light up a competently run GL Dialtone server in town, and go sell it as an Agent, employee, franchisee or whatever.  THAT will be a real good niche for us, as relatively unskilled programmers without big capital needed for such a startup. Personally, I have been wishing that Great Plains or Solomon would wake up and roll out a strategy for this, just as SAP, Oracle etc. have done. All they need to do is change their thinking on licensing.  GP’s product is a GL Dialtone server right out of the box, almost.  I went out 4Q98 for bids and couldn’t get a website up with 10 users for less than $45,000 here, between the NT and Citrix and GP licenses.   80% of the capital costs was the licensing costs. Basically, that stopped it. Perhaps the venture would not lock ourselves into a single network or software infrastructure.   Why not organize as purely an industry standards body, or a trade union, to prevent monopolists in the banking, software and telecomms industries from stealing money from us? The question is, who shall make billions of dollars from the next generation of network-centric accounting software and services?  Software companies and telcos?  Or accountants?  Why shouldn’t we succeed in this?  One principle of business is that the party who owns the customer, usually comes out on top.  And no matter what the Telcos or ERP vendors’ wishes may be, CPAs and accounting software VARs own the clients right now. In my view the SME (Small/medium enterprise) is a reasonably attractive market: According to Computer Reseller News, Dec 7, 1998 * Account for 98 percent of businesses in the United States * Represent about 50 percent of the gross national product * Spend approximately $445 billion annually on IT products and services Big Opportunity * There are four resellers selling to every large business * There is one reseller selling to every three midsize businesses * There is one reseller selling to every 145 small businesses Big Employers * 7,500 businesses with 1,000+ employees * 163,100 businesses with 100-999 employees * 800,000 businesses with 20-99 employees * 9.2 million businesses with less than 20 employees Let’s move these longsuffering users out of their unconnected, single-user and LAN-based platforms. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

Sounds like a good idea to me. Myron Joy CPA       Joy & Associates P.C.       Phoenix Az Accountants and Information Technology Consultants. Developers of ClientLink E-Accounting Software. Visual AccountMate Business Partner. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to   be a new era, for sure.) Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA Since there’s only 5 or 10 CPAs in the country who understand or care about webserver based accounting services, why don’t we form a company, a business plan and establish a franchise?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes but that also leads you with the possibility that it can be accessed by anyone also. Todd Boyle wrote The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner. Shall we just wait for security to improve?  Keep writing paper checks, keypunching inventory into the computer? Shall we keep driving to the computer every day, in order to use it?  A large percentage of the cars on the road are people driving to offices and other information pursuits. There is been no compromise ever detected, in SSL-encoded data in transit across the web.  Servers themselves have not been so lucky, but I seem to note almost every bank in the country now operates a web site offering transaction execution as well as access to data. There are many indicators that the "security thing" is solved, for those companies able to put up something like $10,000 plus $5,000/ year for a proper firewall. Webserver based accounting is going to happen.  It will be running on reasonably secure web hosts.  Breakins will be no more of a problem for GL Dialtone providers than they are for other e-commerce websites, and probably much less of a problem due to the fact they will not be highly visible or advertised. My bet is that GL Dialtone will usually be deployed on private networks, that perform better than the internet as well as being more secure.  It isn’t the kind of thing that needs to be on the global internet….. It just needs to provide a capability for service providers to service the accounting system.  That is the real essence of it.  Settlements vendors will come and harvest the payment and collection data and follow instructions.  Suppliers will harvest the inventory data and replenish stock.  Customers will push their orders into the system, given half a chance. Accountants and bookkeepers will come in and service the general ledger. And owners will come in and harvest data for reports. All of these things could be designed as a class hierarchy. There is a great deal of similarity in the functions needed to control, direct, and utilize the service providers. (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to be a new era, for sure.) * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Todd, This is beginning to make sense.  Is this something we (accountants) should be offering? Jim Hudspeth, CPA

Response:

Yes but that also leads you with the possibility that it can be accessed by anyone also. Todd Boyle wrote The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner.

Shall we just wait for security to improve?  Keep writing paper checks, keypunching inventory into the computer? Shall we keep driving to the computer every day, in order to use it?  A large percentage of the cars on the road are people driving to offices and other information pursuits. There is been no compromise ever detected, in SSL-encoded data in transit across the web.  Servers themselves have not been so lucky, but I seem to note almost every bank in the country now operates a web site offering transaction execution as well as access to data.   There are many indicators that the "security thing" is solved, for those companies able to put up something like $10,000 plus $5,000/ year for a proper firewall.   Webserver based accounting is going to happen.  It will be running on reasonably secure web hosts.  Breakins will be no more of a problem for GL Dialtone providers than they are for other e-commerce websites, and probably much less of a problem due to the fact they will not be highly visible or advertised. My bet is that GL Dialtone will usually be deployed on private networks, that perform better than the internet as well as being more secure.  It isn’t the kind of thing that needs to be on the global internet….. It just needs to provide a capability for service providers to service the accounting system.  That is the real essence of it.  Settlements vendors will come and harvest the payment and collection data and follow instructions.  Suppliers will harvest the inventory data and replenish stock.  Customers will push their orders into the system, given half a chance. Accountants and bookkeepers will come in and service the general ledger. And owners will come in and harvest data for reports. All of these things could be designed as a class hierarchy. There is a great deal of similarity in the functions needed to control, direct, and utilize the service providers. (I never tire of discussing this topic.  It is going to be a new era, for sure.) * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

Yes but that also leads you with the possibility that it can be accessed by anyone also. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

The core idea is that the accounting data will reside someplace where it can be serviced by anybody other than its owner. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.rosehill.net/EcommAcctg.htm * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

Question:

I just took the most fantastic class on winery accounting and vineyard accounting.  If anyone has any specific questions on handling predevelopment costs, inventory costing, depreciation. or cost center allocations, I’m the one to ask!  Happy Turkey Day to all!

Response:

I just took the most fantastic class on winery accounting and vineyard accounting.  If anyone has any specific questions on handling predevelopment costs, inventory costing, depreciation. or cost center allocations, I’m the one to ask!  Happy Turkey Day to all!

Would be interested to hear more about your business and what you’ve learned.  We have a number of clients that are vineyards and might benefit from this information.  Also, perhaps we have some solutions to offer your clients as well? Regards, Daniel Daniel J. Seidner         * FlexWare International LLC Vice President & CTO      * 1999 Avenue Of The Stars, Suite 250 www.flexware.com          * TL:888-FLEXWARE * FX:310-282-0654       F L E X W A R E  A C C O U N T I N G  S O F T W A R E                FLEXIBLE         *     POWERFUL    *       FAST          MacWorld Editor’s Choice * MacUser BestBuy * MacWeek 5 Diamonds

Response:

I just took the most fantastic class on winery accounting and vineyard accounting.  If anyone has any specific questions on handling predevelopment costs, inventory costing, depreciation. or cost center allocations, I’m the one to ask!  Happy Turkey Day to all!

Response:

Sounds like another one of the perks from being in the consulting business, getting to meet interesting clients and in this case maybe sample their product.  You lucky dog. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just took the most fantastic class on winery accounting and vineyard accounting.  If anyone has any specific questions on handling predevelopment costs, inventory costing, depreciation. or cost center allocations, I’m the one to ask!  Happy Turkey Day to all!

Response:

Question:

Hello, I thiink it would be much easier if we communicaTE through icq. Everybody should  have icq!! www.mirabilis.com Arturo Madrid Gaztambide President, Accounting Student Association Universidad Interamericana icq#5805280 http://members.theglobe.com/aecintermet/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What sort of experiences? I am in my second level of studies with the Certified General Accountants, here in Canada. Marija Hello, My name is Arturo Madrid and I am the President of the Accounting Student Association of Universidad Interamericana of Puerto Rico. I also belong to the National Accounting Student Association of Puerto Rico. I’m looking for other Accounting Students to share experiences as a student. Thank You, Arturo Madrid icq#5805280 http://members.theglobe.com/aecintermet/

Response:

Hello, My name is Arturo Madrid and I am the President of the Accounting Student Association of Universidad Interamericana of Puerto Rico. I also belong to the National Accounting Student Association of Puerto Rico. I’m looking for other Accounting Students to share experiences as a student. Thank You, Arturo Madrid icq#5805280 http://members.theglobe.com/aecintermet/

Response:

What sort of experiences? I am in my second level of studies with the Certified General Accountants, here in Canada. Marija – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My name is Arturo Madrid and I am the President of the Accounting Student Association of Universidad Interamericana of Puerto Rico. I also belong to the National Accounting Student Association of Puerto Rico. I’m looking for other Accounting Students to share experiences as a student. Thank You, Arturo Madrid icq#5805280 http://members.theglobe.com/aecintermet/

Response:

Question:

perhaps it is just not the teachings you seek strange and varied are the gifts of the goddess Who says reality is physical? To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube. Put the cube on a mirror, supposed reality can be changed if you just think about it. –And if a single point is used to place the cube on the mirror, rather than a plane, it is possible to attain a position whereby you can peruse all planes of the cube, either in plain sight or via reflection. If you are allowed to spin the cube you do not even need the mirror. Give me that mirror and cube. This is not the teachings you impostures!

Life is a celebration! Join in the dance  :-} wampus

Response:

Give me that mirror and cube. This is not the teachings you impostures! —   INTERDUM DRACO VINCIT

Response:

Awhile ago I posted something called reality which was about how we see our world.  One of the statements made was the we can never see any more the 1/2 of this reality because of it’s physical limitations.  To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube.  While we can change our point of view and by Adding the first seen aspect of the cube to what we see form a different point of view we can make the assumption of what the whole cube would like like if we could see the whole thing. The irony is that even within our own mind we can not create an image that is greater the the three sides of the cube we can see at any given time. Our reality as well as our thoughts are bound by the limitations of this 3D reality.  This becomes more complicated when one of the dimensions we see or don’t see is incorrectly interpreted. Since the reality we live in has more then just the 3D that we can see we have come to rely on what we believe to be true more then what we know to be true. A case in point can be easily understood if we look at the very pillars that support our reality. Science and society are the foundations of what we believe.  We are told from birth to death that what these two things, science and society are the keeps of knowledge and truth yet they have no  greater ability to see this reality then we do.  They often have a view point that is less objective then we have but we tend to subjugate what we see and believe to the will of what they want us to believe.  Science has made many errors as has society but they remain steadfast in their belief that they are the infallible source that we should accept.  One issue that is going to erupted soon that will demonstrate just how lacking these two are involves science. For a long time we have been taught that the speed of light is a constant that is the standard for measurement in much of science.  Now as we expand our understanding of the cosmos we find that this many not be as constant as we thought.  Consider the statement of science that light can not escape a black hole.  If this is the case then light does not travel at a constant speed.  If light can and is effected by gravity then it is effected by all of gravity not just the extremes of the gravity within a black hole.  The theory that time and space are flexible and that as the fabric of time and space are stretched and distorted by gravity and thus causing light to travel further and in so doing accounting for the small variations in time still can not justify the actions of light in are around a black hole.  It would seem obvious that the physical laws we have chosen to accept concerning light may not always be true.  If that is the case then the whole of what we know will once again have to be examined to determine how much of what we accept as true will need to be revamped to accommodate the actions of light around a black hole. With in society the same process is always being applied.  For example here in the United States we assumed that the success of easter style management techniques is what  cause the demise and fall of our control of major markets.  We went so far as to attempted to incorporate the management styles of the easter world like Japan into our industries. Now we see that while that style generated success that it also was no sustainable.  The control by the eastern style managed companies is now is disarray and  Japanese economy is at the brink of disaster. Society defined success and it defined the management style it felt could achieve success but as usual society saw only a small part of what the true reality was.  Both society and science continue to make judgment errors and we have to adjust.  We as individuals make the same kind of errors and chose to ignore them until they create a crisis we can no longer ignore.  We allow our lives to fall in to a deep pit before we are willing to stop and re-evaluated what we are and what we believe. How much of what you are and what you believe is valid based on the reality you see? Got no clue?  Then you are not in control of your life or the path you are walking. — Please take a moment to visit the web pages devoted to earth friendly beliefs and some of the things written by A. Nonperson. Visit http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6891/anon/anon.htm

Response:

To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube. Put the cube on a mirror, supposed reality can be changed if you just think about it. —

And if a single point is used to plce the cube on the mirror, rather than a plane, it is possible to attain a position whereby you can peruse all planes of the cube, either in plain sight or via reflection. If you are allowed to spin the cube you do not even need the mirror. Terry

Response:

To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube.

Put the cube on a mirror, supposed reality can be changed if you just think about it. — NOTICE:  This e-mail address is being spoofed on USENET.  Obvious trolls and needlessly incendiary remarks should be ignored.  All authentic messages from this address will bear this disclaimer, although spoofed messages may as well. The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

Awhile ago I posted something called reality which was about how we see our world.  One of the statements made was the we can never see any more the 1/2 of this reality because of it’s physical limitations.

Who says reality is physical? To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube.  While we can change our point of view and by Adding the first seen aspect of the cube to what we see form a different point of view we can make the assumption of what the whole cube would like like if we could see the whole thing. The irony is that even within our own mind we can not create an image that is greater the the three sides of the cube we can see at any given time. Our reality as well as our thoughts are bound by the limitations of this 3D reality.  This becomes more complicated when one of the dimensions we see or don’t see is incorrectly interpreted. Since the reality we live in has more then just the 3D that we can see we have come to rely on what we believe to be true more then what we know to be true.

Firstly, even so-called scientific physical reality has four dimensions and possibly more if we include superstring theory. But these are just concepts and scientific models, not reality. A case in point can be easily understood if we look at the very pillars that support our reality. Science and society are the foundations of what we believe.  

They aren’t the foundations of what I and many others believe. We are told from birth to death that what these two things, science and society are the keeps of knowledge and truth yet they have no  greater ability to see this reality then we do.

No one ever told me that. They often have a view point that is less objective then we have but we tend to subjugate what we see and believe to the will of what they want us to believe.  Science has made many errors as has society but they remain steadfast in their belief that they are the infallible source that we should accept.

Science does never makes any claim to be infallible (some pretend scientists may) – science is based on theoretical models to explain experimental results.   One issue that is going to erupted soon that will demonstrate just how lacking these two are involves science. For a long time we have been taught that the speed of light is a constant that is the standard for measurement in much of science.

Again this is just the special relativity model. It isn’t truth or sacred. As soon as a result doesn’t fit a new model will be developed. That’s how science got where it is now. Some traditionalists may try to hold it back but that isn’t science. <snip   Both society and science continue to make judgment errors and we have to adjust.

Science doesn’t make judgements. Either the results are repeatable and fit the proposed model or they don’t. <snip Kundrol

Response:

Awhile ago I posted something called reality which was about how we see our world.  One of the statements made was the we can never see any more the 1/2 of this reality because of it’s physical limitations.  To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube.  While we can …put a mirror behind it… L8r, alX

Better yet, suspend it on a glass shelf surrounded by mirrors on five sides ie: "below, above behind, left and right." Use the above five points as an analogy for "centering, grounding, meditation, prayer and using the third eye." We allow our lives to fall in to a deep pit before we are willing to stop and re-evaluated what we are and what we believe. How much of what you are and what you believe is valid based on the reality you see? Got no clue?  Then you are not in control of your life or the path you are walking.

I’ve got a clue. How about you? Love, Peace and Bright Blessings SamWise http://steinwerk.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Awhile ago I posted something called reality which was about how we see our world.  One of the statements made was the we can never see any more the 1/2 of this reality because of it’s physical limitations.  To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube.  While we can …put a mirror behind it… L8r, alX Better yet, suspend it on a glass shelf surrounded by mirrors on five sides ie: "below, above behind, left and right."

Well, even avoiding the mirrors, it’s possible to see up to five sides at the same time.  You simply need a sufficiently small cube such that it’s diagonal measurment is smaller than the distance between your eyes. Hold it  diagonally vertical, very close to your eyes, with one face directly toward you.  You’ll see the four sides which make the perimeter, as well as the front surface, leaving only the rear surface unobserved. But…I do believe we’re over thinking what was said.  If you don’t get nitpicky the gist of what was said makes very much sense.         – Bran Faol — ‘An harm it none, do what you Will,’ is an ideal. At times it is necessary to take the path of least harm because taking no path at would cause more harm.

Response:

Awhile ago I posted something called reality which was about how we see our world.  One of the statements made was the we can never see any more the 1/2 of this reality because of it’s physical limitations.  To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube.  While we can

…put a mirror behind it… L8r, alX

Response:

Sheesh, buddy!  Whatever you are selling, try to do it in fewer words- dont’ bore folks when trying to sell snake oil. I’ve never seen such a long winded rant…. Circe

Response:

Really excellent and educational post!  Thanks.  :) Many Blessings, Tegan  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Awhile ago I posted something called reality which was about how we see our world.  One of the statements made was the we can never see any more the 1/2 of this reality because of it’s physical limitations.  To demonstrate this point I suggested you find a cube and place it in front of you.  No matter position you chose to use to see that cube at no point in time can you see more the half of that cube.  While we can change our point of view and by Adding the first seen aspect of the cube to what we see form a different point of view we can make the assumption of what the whole cube would like like if we could see the whole thing. The irony is that even within our own mind we can not create an image that is greater the the three sides of the cube we can see at any given time. Our reality as well as our thoughts are bound by the limitations of this 3D reality.  This becomes more complicated when one of the dimensions we see or don’t see is incorrectly interpreted. Since the reality we live in has more then just the 3D that we can see we have come to rely on what we believe to be true more then what we know to be true. A case in point can be easily understood if we look at the very pillars that support our reality. Science and society are the foundations of what we believe.  We are told from birth to death that what these two things, science and society are the keeps of knowledge and truth yet they have no  greater ability to see this reality then we do.  They often have a view point that is less objective then we have but we tend to subjugate what we see and believe to the will of what they want us to believe.  Science has made many errors as has society but they remain steadfast in their belief that they are the infallible source that we should accept.  One issue that is going to erupted soon that will demonstrate just how lacking these two are involves science. For a long time we have been taught that the speed of light is a constant that is the standard for measurement in much of science.  Now as we expand our understanding of the cosmos we find that this many not be as constant as we thought.  Consider the statement of science that light can not escape a black hole.  If this is the case then light does not travel at a constant speed.  If light can and is effected by gravity then it is effected by all of gravity not just the extremes of the gravity within a black hole.  The theory that time and space are flexible and that as the fabric of time and space are stretched and distorted by gravity and thus causing light to travel further and in so doing accounting for the small variations in time still can not justify the actions of light in are around a black hole.  It would seem obvious that the physical laws we have chosen to accept concerning light may not always be true.  If that is the case then the whole of what we know will once again have to be examined to determine how much of what we accept as true will need to be revamped to accommodate the actions of light around a black hole. With in society the same process is always being applied.  For example here in the United States we assumed that the success of easter style management techniques is what  cause the demise and fall of our control of major markets.  We went so far as to attempted to incorporate the management styles of the easter world like Japan into our industries. Now we see that while that style generated success that it also was no sustainable.  The control by the eastern style managed companies is now is disarray and  Japanese economy is at the brink of disaster. Society defined success and it defined the management style it felt could achieve success but as usual society saw only a small part of what the true reality was.  Both society and science continue to make judgment errors and we have to adjust.  We as individuals make the same kind of errors and chose to ignore them until they create a crisis we can no longer ignore.  We allow our lives to fall in to a deep pit before we are willing to stop and re-evaluated what we are and what we believe. How much of what you are and what you believe is valid based on the reality you see? Got no clue?  Then you are not in control of your life or the path you are walking. — Please take a moment to visit the web pages devoted to earth friendly beliefs and some of the things written by A. Nonperson. Visit http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6891/anon/anon.htm

Response:

Question:

Love from Hoges

Response:

Love from Hoges

What ever it is, I want some of it….. johnie

Response:

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL YOU NICE BODIES.

Response:

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL YOU NICE BODIES.

gotta hate smart arse accountants Sp ——- Arguing with a pilot is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you begin to think the pig likes it. — Seen on a General Dynamics bulletin board

Response:

Question:

Hello folks: The warm weather has arrived and everything is blooming with all kinds of "goodies" floating around in the air.  Thought I was suffering from a cold but the time of year, itchy eyes and congestion tell me otherwise.  I can live with that, but my energy level is also zapped, especially later in the day as the air quality decreases.  Suddenly those 8 easy miles feel more like 16. I didn’t think that performance would be affected by a simple allergy, guess I’m wrong.  Possibly some of you allergy sufferers/runners out there could respond.  Would appreciate any comments and/or suggestions.                                        Ken

Response:

Hello folks: The warm weather has arrived and everything is blooming with all kinds of "goodies" floating around in the air.  Thought I was suffering from a cold but the time of year, itchy eyes and congestion tell me otherwise.  I can live with that, but my energy level is also zapped, especially later in the day as the air quality decreases.  Suddenly those 8 easy miles feel more like 16. I didn’t think that performance would be affected by a simple allergy, guess I’m wrong.  Possibly some of you allergy sufferers/runners out there could respond.  Would appreciate any comments and/or suggestions.

Living in Arizona we are exposed to a high level of allergens.  Personally, I’ve been on antibiotics off and on for the past 5 months.  I’ve tried various types of nasal inhalers, but still have the tired feeling during workouts and especially at the end of the day.  My sleep was even becoming affected.  So, to try another approach I invested in a carbon-filtered air cleaner (30×20 sq.ft type) for the home.  This was about $200, but I’ve been sleeping like a baby ever since.  I’ll turn it up real high and close the doors several hours before I sleep.  I think the increase of quality sleep has help me throughout the day. — 7500 N. Dreamy Draw Drive       telno: 602 870-3330 x705 Suite 120 Phoenix, AZ  85020

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks: The warm weather has arrived and everything is blooming with all kinds of "goodies" floating around in the air.  Thought I was suffering from a cold but the time of year, itchy eyes and congestion tell me otherwise.  I can live with that, but my energy level is also zapped, especially later in the day as the air quality decreases.  Suddenly those 8 easy miles feel more like 16. I didn’t think that performance would be affected by a simple allergy, guess I’m wrong.  Possibly some of you allergy sufferers/runners out there could respond.  Would appreciate any comments and/or suggestions. Living in Arizona we are exposed to a high level of allergens.  Personally, I’ve been on antibiotics off and on for the past 5 months.  I’ve tried various types of nasal inhalers, but still have the tired feeling during workouts and especially at the end of the day.  My sleep was even becoming affected.  So, to try another approach I invested in a carbon-filtered air cleaner (30×20 sq.ft type) for the home.  This was about $200, but I’ve been sleeping like a baby ever since.  I’ll turn it up real high and close the doors several hours before I sleep.  I think the increase of quality sleep has help me throughout the day.

Jay, my experiences of late have mirrored yours.  I’m living in Las Vegas, never suffered from any allergies before, and have been going nuts for the last three weeks.  Last winter’s relative wetness has brought forth May’s pollen in abundance and I too am having trouble especially at night.  Could you post additional specifics on your air cleaner?  It sounds like something I could benefit from.  Any other netters have experience with air cleaners? Thanks,

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The warm weather has arrived and everything is blooming with all kinds of "goodies" floating around in the air.  Thought I was suffering from a cold but affected.  So, to try another approach I invested in a carbon-filtered air cleaner (30×20 sq.ft type) for the home.  This was about $200, but I’ve pollen in abundance and I too am having trouble especially at night.  Could you post additional specifics on your air cleaner?  It sounds like something I could benefit from.  Any other netters have experience with air cleaners?

See article in Consumer Reports "Household Air Cleaners", October 1992, p657-662. My father owns–and swears by–a mid-rated Trion Console he bought at a Sears. — "In one recent accounting, [the] Bureau of Indian Affairs financial wizards valued three chain saws at $99 million each."    – U.S. News & World Report, 2/22/93

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| By the way, if your allergies are mild, you might want to try some of the | homeopathic allergy remedies.  I was able to use one recently for several | weeks prior to the heavy allergy season.  These are more expensive, but they | claim to cause no drowsiness (and I was fine on them…not sleepy at all). #define RANT_ON Of course they (homeopathic treatments; I won’t call them remedies) won’t cause drowsiness.  Homeopathic treatments contain ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!  Except, of course, the water/alcohol/whatever they use to dilute them.  And I do mean dilute:  I’ve seen dilutions from 10^12 to 10^56 (now you tell me what’s left when you dilute something that much).  (example:  a homeopathic treatment for vaginal yeast infection:  inactive ingredient is polyethylene glycol, active ingredient is candida albicans (the fungus (?) that causes it!), diluted 100:1 28 times). If you want a scientific opinion on homeopathy, ask on sci.med.nutrition, or even sci.skeptic, and watch the flames fly.  IMAO, homeopathy is a crock. #define RANT_OFF Ken Lehner

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| By the way, if your allergies are mild, you might want to try some of the | homeopathic allergy remedies.  I was able to use one recently for several | weeks prior to the heavy allergy season.  These are more expensive, but they | claim to cause no drowsiness (and I was fine on them…not sleepy at all). .. If you want a scientific opinion on homeopathy, ask on sci.med.nutrition, or even sci.skeptic, and watch the flames fly.  IMAO, homeopathy is a crock. #define RANT_OFF

I don’t want to start a flame-fest, but … I suffer from terrible (I would say "crippling") hay fever, and *only* homeopathy has helped. There’s much western medicine doesn’t understand.  My recommendation to the original poster is, don’t listen to people who say it "can’t work."  See for yourself whether it *does* work.  That’s the scientific method, last time I checked. (A several month supply of my homeopathic remedy costs about $10 – that’s less than most over the counter drugs.) Disclaimer:  In case you’re wondering, I’m not generally a believer in "New Age" remedies – I don’t drink herbal tea, or any of that other stuff.  I just believe in having an open mind.  And I couldn’t care less about this week’s "scientific opinion." Ken Lehner

-ashish — Ashish Mukharji        When I race my mind is full of doubts. TFS, Berkeley CA                              - Noureddine Morceli

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#I don’t want to start a flame-fest, but … I suffer from terrible (I #would say "crippling") hay fever, and *only* homeopathy has helped. # #There’s much western medicine doesn’t understand.  My recommendation to #the original poster is, don’t listen to people who say it "can’t #work."  See for yourself whether it *does* work.  That’s the scientific #method, last time I checked. # #(A several month supply of my homeopathic remedy costs about $10 – #that’s less than most over the counter drugs.) I’d call it the placebo effect.  Nothing wrong with that, if it only costs a few bucks, and works for you.  Anybody who runs should sense that psychology is as important as anything else. -Jon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks: The warm weather has arrived and everything is blooming with all kinds of "goodies" floating around in the air.  Thought I was suffering from a cold but the time of year, itchy eyes and congestion tell me otherwise.  I can live with that, but my energy level is also zapped, especially later in the day as the air quality decreases.  Suddenly those 8 easy miles feel more like 16. I didn’t think that performance would be affected by a simple allergy, guess I’m wrong.  Possibly some of you allergy sufferers/runners out there could respond.  Would appreciate any comments and/or suggestions. Living in Arizona we are exposed to a high level of allergens.  Personally, I’ve been on antibiotics off and on for the past 5 months.  I’ve tried various types of nasal inhalers, but still have the tired feeling during workouts and especially at the end of the day.  My sleep was even becoming affected.  So, to try another approach I invested in a carbon-filtered air cleaner (30×20 sq.ft type) for the home.  This was about $200, but I’ve been sleeping like a baby ever since.  I’ll turn it up real high and close the doors several hours before I sleep.  I think the increase of quality sleep has help me throughout the day. Jay, my experiences of late have mirrored yours.  I’m living in Las Vegas, never suffered from any allergies before, and have been going nuts for the last three weeks.  Last winter’s relative wetness has brought forth May’s pollen in abundance and I too am having trouble especially at night.  Could

                                                                       ^^^^^ you post additional specifics on your air cleaner?  It sounds like something

I could benefit from.  Any other netters have experience with air cleaners?

For those interested, I purchased the BionAIRe (f-250) Air Purifier & Ionizer. It was $200.  There are four cartridge filters which need to be replaced periodically.  The instructions say every 3 months, but there is an indicator to tell you when it should be changed.  The replacement packs run $19. Since I run this only during the evening they should last longer.  It cleans a 20×30 room 3x/hour.  Cleans air of dirt, dust, pollen, smoke particles, and even bacteria (or so they say).  The company which manufacturers this particular brand is located in Allendale, NJ  07401.  There seem to be many different brands, though. — 7500 N. Dreamy Draw Drive       telno: 602 870-3330 x705 Suite 120 Phoenix, AZ  85020

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