Question:

hell YEAH.

Response:

longshot wrote: > hell YEAH.

F**k Yeah! — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/  Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses.  This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me  "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me

Response:

Oh please, dear God, let me find out before I die.

Response:

longshot wrote: > hell YEAH.

This seems to be the fable of the present age. The Hippies said:  "All you need is love." Now, we say"  "All you need is sex." Read the "What to do…" thread on this newsgroup.  Only one example of a marriage with good sex, but unfulfilling.  I am from then generation that believed that so long as the relationship was good, a fulfilling sex life would come with time. Doug. — ICQ Number 178748389. Registered Linux User No. 277548. There is nothing so strong or safe, in any emergency of life, as simple truth.         – Charles Dickens

Response:

Question:

Kindblade said morale was poor, and he attacked the leadership back home. ‘The rules of engagement are crippling. We are outnumbered. We are exhausted. We are in over our heads. The President says, "Bring ‘em on." The generals say we don’t need more troops. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1015684,00…. ‘Bring us home’: GIs flood US with war-weary emails An unprecedented internet campaign waged on the frontline and in the US is exposing the real risks for troops in Iraq. Paul Harris and Jonathan Franklin report on rising fears that the conflict is now a desert Vietnam Sunday August 10, 2003 The Observer Susan Schuman is angry. Her GI son is serving in the Iraqi town of Samarra, at the heart of the ‘Sunni triangle’, where American troops are killed with grim regularity. Breaking the traditional silence of military families during time of war, Schuman knows what she wants – and who she blames for the danger to her son, Justin. ‘I want them to bring our troops home. I am appalled at Bush’s policies. He has got us into a terrible mess,’ she said. Schuman may just be the tip of an iceberg. She lives in Shelburne Falls, a small town in Massachusetts, and says all her neighbours support her view. ‘I don’t know anyone around here who disagrees with me,’ she said. Schuman’s views are part of a growing unease back home at the rising casualty rate in Iraq, a concern coupled with deep anger at President George W. Bush’s plans to cut army benefits for many soldiers. Criticism is also coming directly from soldiers risking their lives under the guns of Saddam Hussein’s fighters, and they are using a weapon not available to troops in previous wars: the internet. Through emails and chatrooms a picture is emerging of day-to-day gripes, coupled with ferocious criticism of the way the war has been handled. They paint a vivid picture of US army life that is a world away from the sanitised official version. In a message posted on a website last week, one soldier was brutally frank. ‘Somewhere down the line, we became an occupation force in [Iraqi] eyes. We don’t feel like heroes any more,’ said Private Isaac Kindblade of the 671st Engineer Company. Kindblade said morale was poor, and he attacked the leadership back home. ‘The rules of engagement are crippling. We are outnumbered. We are exhausted. We are in over our heads. The President says, "Bring ‘em on." The generals say we don’t need more troops. Well, they’re not over here,’ he wrote. One of the main outlets for the soldiers’ complaints has been a website run by outspoken former soldier David Hackworth, who was the army’s youngest colonel in the Vietnam war and one of its most decorated warriors. He receives almost 500 emails a day, many of them from soldiers serving in Iraq. They have sounded off about everything from bad treatment at the hands of their officers to fears that their equipment is faulty. The army-issue gas mask ‘leaks under the chin. This same mask was used during Desert Storm, which accounts for part of the health problems of the vets who fought there. My unit has again deployed to the Gulf with this loser,’ ranted one army doctor. Some veterans have begun to form organisations to campaign to bring the soldiers home and highlight their difficult conditions. Erik Gustafson, a veteran of the 1991 Gulf war, has founded Veterans For Common Sense. ‘There is an anger boiling under the surface now, and I, as a veteran, have a duty to speak because I am no longer subject to military discipline,’ he said. A recent email from Iraq passed to Gustafson, signed by ‘the Soldiers of the 2nd Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division’, said simply: ‘Our men and women deserve to see their loved ones again and deserve to come home. Thank you for your attention.’ Another source of anger is government plans to reverse recent increases in ‘imminent danger’ pay and a family separation allowance. These moves have provoked several furious editorials in the Army Times, the normally conservative military newspaper. The paper said the planned cuts made ‘the Bush administration seem mean-spirited and hypocritical’. Tobias Naegele, its editor-in-chief, said his senior staff agonised over the decision to attack the government, but the response to the editorials from ordinary soldiers was overwhelmingly positive. A further critical editorial is planned for this week. ‘We don’t think lightly of criticising our Commander-in-Chief,’ Naegele said ‘The army has had a rough couple of years with this administration.’ Mainstream veterans’ groups too are angry about cuts being proposed at a time when politicians have heaped praise on the army’s performance in Afghanistan and Iraq and want to launch a recruitment drive. Veterans plan protests to highlight the issue. ‘We are going to show them that veterans are people who know how to vote,’ said Steven Robinson, a veteran and executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Centre, one of the websites where veterans’ issues are raised. Susan Schuman too is planning a protest. This week she plans to join members of a new group, Military Families Speak Out, who will travel to Washington to make their case for their sons, daughters, husbands and wives, to be brought home from Iraq. With soldiers dying there almost daily, comparisons have already been drawn with the Vietnam war and the birth of the protest movements there that divided America in the Sixties and Seventies. Political scientists, however, think the war will have to get much worse before anything similar happens over Iraq. ‘To put it crudely, I think the country can accept this current level of casualties,’ said Professor Richard Stoll, of Rice University in Houston, Texas. That is little comfort to Schuman, who says she just wants to see her son, Justin, return alive from a war she believes is unjust. ‘It is a quagmire and it is not going to be easy to get out,’ she said. ‘That’s where the parallel with Vietnam is.’

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – same old nonsensical garbage others do when confronted with the facts and the truth. I note that your mental disability keeps you from enjoying reality. It is a shame that you have such an enmity for the very political party that is now signing your very large disability checks. Perhaps the Democrats will soon take over that function.. Remember what your hero Billy-Bob Klinton did to the Veterans administration budgets? Of course if you had followed Billy-Bob to London..Your problems wouldn’t exist… Oppps..Thats wrong…You enlisted!  Right?  ;-p Semper Fi!! PS If you need someone to babysit your current president…Why don’t you volunteer?   After all..Your availabl

You don’t actually expect an honest response from DW, do you?

Response:

Yea, I found a date for you too, it is a date with death and hellfire. — Dore http://dorewilliamson.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey a1953…I think we just found a hot date for you!!  ;-P Well tell them GI’s to get some gonads and think of ways to hide themselves as civilians and become AWOL, get out of Iraq, and then move to Canada. To sit there waiting for a Satan worshipper BUSH,  to bring them home, is LUDICROUS, while they DIE for the wallets of the rich and oil owners. Bush and the actual rulers of the world, doesn’t care if every American would rise up and demand to bring them home, they will do what they want, because their only desire is to invade, control and profit from every nation they want to control. They consider ALL military personnel as collateral, and couldn’t care less about their lives, only their own bank accounts and power. WAKE UP, the leaders don’t care about them, so no amount of protest is going to do a thing in this NAZI, SATANIC New World Order, so if they want to save their own lives, they had better find their own ways to get out of the situation. Fact is, the Patriot Acts totally destroyed the Constitution, and NO American has any rights, liberties or freedom and they sit back and nary a peep about that, even though it imprisons and steals everything in their own lives, you surely don’t think they are gonna stand up and do anything about some stranger, who’s life is in the military in Iraq, do you? I am appalled that every citizen in every state isn’t in uproar and outraged by the Patriot Acts, and protesting in the streets for their OWN LIVES. How much moreso will they lay down and cower in the face of the rulers and government for strangers they don’t even know? It is all pathetic and unbelievable, and makes me think that I am living in the twilight zone, since the apathy of Americans is so overwhelming, I simply cannot believe it. They let the devil and his minions in the government do as they please without a peep. Are there any Christians at all on the earth?  I wonder. They all look like COWARDS who bow and kiss the feet of SATAN to me. — Dore http://dorewilliamson.com ‘Bring us home’: GIs flood US with war-weary emails An unprecedented internet campaign waged on the frontline and in the US is exposing the real risks for troops in Iraq. Paul Harris and Jonathan Franklin report on rising fears that the conflict is now a desert Vietnam Paul Harris and Jonathan Franklin Sunday August 10, 2003 The Observer Susan Schuman is angry. Her GI son is serving in the Iraqi town of Samarra, at the heart of the ‘Sunni triangle’, where American troops are killed with grim regularity. Breaking the traditional silence of military families during time of war, Schuman knows what she wants – and who she blames for the danger to her son, Justin. ‘I want them to bring our troops home. I am appalled at Bush’s policies. He has got us into a terrible mess,’ she said. Schuman may just be the tip of an iceberg. She lives in Shelburne Falls, a small town in Massachusetts, and says all her neighbours support her view. ‘I don’t know anyone around here who disagrees with me,’ she said. Schuman’s views are part of a growing unease back home at the rising casualty rate in Iraq, a concern coupled with deep anger at President George W. Bush’s plans to cut army benefits for many soldiers. Criticism is also coming directly from soldiers risking their lives under the guns of Saddam Hussein’s fighters, and they are using a weapon not available to troops in previous wars: the internet. Through emails and chatrooms a picture is emerging of day-to-day gripes, coupled with ferocious criticism of the way the war has been handled. They paint a vivid picture of US army life that is a world away from the sanitised official version. In a message posted on a website last week, one soldier was brutally frank. ‘Somewhere down the line, we became an occupation force in [Iraqi] eyes. We don’t feel like heroes any more,’ said Private Isaac Kindblade of the 671st Engineer Company. Kindblade said morale was poor, and he attacked the leadership back home. ‘The rules of engagement are crippling. We are outnumbered. We are exhausted. We are in over our heads. The President says, "Bring ‘em on." The generals say we don’t need more troops. Well, they’re not over here,’ he wrote. One of the main outlets for the soldiers’ complaints has been a website run by outspoken former soldier David Hackworth, who was the army’s youngest colonel in the Vietnam war and one of its most decorated warriors. He receives almost 500 emails a day, many of them from soldiers serving in Iraq. They have sounded off about everything from bad treatment at the hands of their officers to fears that their equipment is faulty. The army-issue gas mask ‘leaks under the chin. This same mask was used during Desert Storm, which accounts for part of the health problems of the vets who fought there. My unit has again deployed to the Gulf with this loser,’ ranted one army doctor. Some veterans have begun to form organisations to campaign to bring the soldiers home and highlight their difficult conditions. Erik Gustafson, a veteran of the 1991 Gulf war, has founded Veterans For Common Sense. ‘There is an anger boiling under the surface now, and I, as a veteran, have a duty to speak because I am no longer subject to military discipline,’ he said. A recent email from Iraq passed to Gustafson, signed by ‘the Soldiers of the 2nd Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division’, said simply: ‘Our men and women deserve to see their loved ones again and deserve to come home. Thank you for your attention.’ Another source of anger is government plans to reverse recent increases in ‘imminent danger’ pay and a family separation allowance. These moves have provoked several furious editorials in the Army Times, the normally conservative military newspaper. The paper said the planned cuts made ‘the Bush administration seem mean-spirited and hypocritical’. Tobias Naegele, its editor-in-chief, said his senior staff agonised over the decision to attack the government, but the response to the editorials from ordinary soldiers was overwhelmingly positive. A further critical editorial is planned for this week. ‘We don’t think lightly of criticising our Commander-in-Chief,’ Naegele said ‘The army has had a rough couple of years with this administration.’ Mainstream veterans’ groups too are angry about cuts being proposed at a time when politicians have heaped praise on the army’s performance in Afghanistan and Iraq and want to launch a recruitment drive. Veterans plan protests to highlight the issue. ‘We are going to show them that veterans are people who know how to vote,’ said Steven Robinson, a veteran and executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Centre, one of the websites where veterans’ issues are raised. Susan Schuman too is planning a protest. This week she plans to join members of a new group, Military Families Speak Out, who will travel to Washington to make their case for their sons, daughters, husbands and wives, to be brought home from Iraq. With soldiers dying there almost daily, comparisons have already been drawn with the Vietnam war and the birth of the protest movements there that divided America in the Sixties and Seventies. Political scientists, however, think the war will have to get much worse before anything similar happens over Iraq. ‘To put it crudely, I think the country can accept this current level of casualties,’ said Professor Richard Stoll, of Rice University in Houston, Texas. That is little comfort to Schuman, who says she just wants to see her son, Justin, return alive from a war she believes is unjust. ‘It is a quagmire and it is not going to be easy to get out,’ she said. ‘That’s where the parallel with Vietnam is.’ Guardian Unlimited

Question:

I’ve had the sorry luck to have used an outfit known variously as Accountants Referral Network or Accountants Referral Services.  This organization is owned by a person known either as Lise Buscher, though she may introduce herself as Ann. This shadiness should be a warning.  This organization, by whatever name used, is unreliable, unproductive and a waste of money.  In my experience, they do not provide quality referrals.    Of the countless appointments I went on, only ONE became a financially viable client.  Most of the others were in search of  free advice so they could steer their present accountants in the correct direction. Two were so bad off that insolvency or bankruptcy were their only remaining options. I’m passing this along to keep others from learning a tough lesson. — Michael E. Blount, CPA Managing Director Blount & Company, LLP 888.984.1040 www.blountcpa.com

Response:

I’ve had the sorry luck to have used an outfit known variously as Accountants Referral Network or Accountants Referral Services.  This organization is owned by a person known either as Lise Buscher, though she may introduce herself as Ann. This shadiness should be a warning.  This organization, by whatever name used, is unreliable, unproductive and a waste of money.  In my experience, they do not provide quality referrals.  Of the counteless appointments I went on, only ONE became a financially viable client.  Most of the others were in search of free advice so they could steer their present accountants in the right direction.  Two were so bad off that insolvency or bankruptcy were their only remaining options. In addition, I’ve been contacted by the US Postal Inspectors Office to follow up on mail/wire fraud charges levied against this organization. I’m passing this along to keep others from learning a tough lesson — Michael E. Blount, CPA Managing Director Blount & Company, LLP 888.984.1040 www.blountcpa.com

Response:

Question:

Sorry my handle and email keep changing … I’ve been having trouble on my end setting up the deja account.  All set now. Todd, this XML schema is inspiring work. Thanks!  I needed that! (as hundreds of readers groan, "NOOO don’t encourage him…"

If hundreds of readers are groaning, grinning, or otherwise … they should comment on this schema asap.  I NEVER post, but found it compelling enough to crawl out of the woodwork.  Let’s hear the other 99 readers’ comments! Do you think there are some users who would use an additional field?   78 ReportBand    O=Operating, C=CGS, E=Extraordinary

Nah.  This is either handled for via the ideal, being XBRL, or via interpretation by the users.  One could go nuts trying to hit and forsee every report band with different fields.  No need to clutter the schema. What I really want to hear comments/concerns from some career system integrator-CPA’s like myself.  If this catches on, do we bemoan the lost fees from mapping?  Or are we happy because we get to focus our efforts on more value-added efforts? -Josh Before you buy.

Response:

Why not have two additional line items for your schema (1) one that would reference an external file for binary data.  While my G/L designing days are over (with the last design in about ‘81), if I were doing it today I would certainly provide for a BLOB data field attached to every detail record, that could contain arbitrary binary data (scans, sound, whatever);

Hmmm…  good idea.  Is this a good name? "DatafileURI" and (2) one that could be repeated any number of times that would allow you to contain an arbitrary number of fields containing arbitrary data to become part of the trx record.

Well, the problem with that is it cannot really be done with a flat file structure.   The user can always create additional rows and reuse fields with a zero amount… in effect these would be associated with the whole transaction, not with any particular row or account… I bring this up because I work with the ANSI & other EDI standards daily, and find they are tremendously limited when these two items would add a great deal of flexibility.  I recognize that normalization isn’t the most important thing, but a single data item that is normalized in this manner can add a lot of flexibility to an otherwise fairly rigid standard.  Any software that chooses to ignore such fields can safely do so, with the understanding that loss of data can occur — this, however, seems preferable to losing data because there is no ability to write it out.

What is increasingly clear is that a couple of additional schema would really help: 1.  A control schema like the one at www.smbxml.org, containing the add, edit, delete etc. commands and the result messages, and 2.  An optional schema family not so different from this flatfile schema, providing for 2 and 3 and 4 tiered parent-child layouts. Being flatfiles like rootledgerXML they would achieve the simplicity and enable import/export to/from legacy accounting systems without *necessarily* requiring XML parsers and the whole associated software glue from microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Sun etc. If undertaken very carefully this exercise would discover and remedy issues in the flatfile rootledgerXML, and it might be possible the 2, 3 level schemas could be designed to be semantically equivalent to the flatfile, like this example.   http://www.gldialtone.com/stupidTricksWithXSLT.htm BTW, I admire your work on this.  I honestly don’t know where you get the hours. I hope someday you are rewarded for your work… David

Hey thanks!  Don’t worry I’m having a blast.  Probably will have to go out and get a job eventually but meantime, yeeeHAAAAA! TOdd

Response:

Todd, this XML schema is inspiring work.

Thanks!  I needed that!   (as hundreds of readers groan, "NOOO don’t encourage him…" I would like to point out how nicely this schema accomodates the COA varieties out their.  In one flat structure, you can handle: 1) <shudder Segemented Accounts which combine combine GAAP reporting   with anything from legal entity, product, cost center, etc into one   field.

Yep… Department, location and so forth, are also denormalized into the chart of account codes, often…. 2)  Non-COA structures which have base GAAP classifications. Such as XBRL    type.  Arguably the optimal way to tag a transaction for GL purposes    in a perfect world.

Yes!  I think best practices are for US companies to run, not walk, towards eliminating "custom" charts of accounts and implement XBRL types instead (together with other more accurate attributes such as party) 3)  Normalized COA.  Seperates the account from more granular transaction    buckets (product/cost center/project etc).  A standard in large ERP. The adoption of this standard affects ANYONE involved with the implementation and integration of small/medium/large accounting systems since it potentially removes the need for re-mapping ones GL.

Thats why no vendor or consultant employed in this field has ever participated in a standard for GL or COA, and they are all silent today while millions of bookkeepers and accountants slave away on their data entry.   The purpose of writing software is to trick other men and women into providing your food and shelter….  Money for nothing.  Right? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Here’s a question, does this schema need another field to dichotomize expenses between below/above the gross margin line.  In new large-scale implementations this seems to be a tough thing to explain to clients.  With a normalized COA the main choice is between representing above-the-line (COS, CGS) expenses with seperate accounts: 50000 salaries, cgs 60000 salaries, below-the-line versus representing them multi-dimensionally.  For instance, let certain cost centers conceptually represent below-the-line: 50000 salaries (the only salary account) ******* 5a CSG Department Code 5b One of many below-the-line department codes In which case the combination of both fields would be necessary for systems to indicate CGS. Should the schema have a Yes/No flag for CGS?  Or am I tampering too much with a good thing?  Perhaps the allocation of above/below the line should be more at the user’s discretion … not explicitly tied into the schema?

Interesting points… this concern may apply to costs below Operating income (in extraordinary etc.) as well.  Of course, the XBRL type provides unambiguous classifications for all CGS, Operating expenses, etc. And most General Ledgers also contain unambiguous account codes wherever necessary for the enterprise. Do you think there are some users who would use an additional field?   78 ReportBand    O=Operating, C=CGS, E=Extraordinary But this is screwy because you’re overriding an XBRL code… I’m getting all confused by this discussion.  Let’s start over. Every transaction has an intrinsic quality of what Statutory GAAP reporting line it should be posted to.  There is one, and only one, GAAP reporting line that the transaction finally goes into. (I grant that this classification is not always known or knowable at time of posting) The account code is used, today, to store a code for this determination.  Tomorrow, it will be the XBRL type. Now furthermore, any line in the General Ledger may have additional attributes (there are over 70 of these attributes in the schema..) If you’re saying, there are natively, in the transactions, some kinds of labor that are COGS, well then, the program logic that calculates the payroll is going to need to post them to COGS. If management reports are needed as to breakdowns of the COGS line, it may be summed along any of the 70 odd attributes including perhaps, one of these? 12 Journaltype         sales journal, purchase journal, payroll journal, etc 32 Party               QName (namespace:id) uniquely identifies the reciprocal                            party to this transaction

Question:

<snip Hey ! Because of a grossly discriminatory law ( an interesting anamoly, in a nation of immigrants ), I have zero shot at the Presidency. So, that’s it, I will have to go for Prime Minister. The only problem is, which of the five parties will I use ? The Bloc Quebecois are right out, as they only run in Quebec ( around 75 out of 300 seats in Commons ), so I can’t win a general election there. The NDP ( Not Destined for Power ) are kinda moribund, the Tories are more so, and the Reformers don’t even know what their name is going to be. And, the Liberals, *ain’t*.

You’re forgetting about the Greens, Andre!  8% of the vote in BC and growing!  I think we form a Green-Rhino coalition and we’ve got 24 Sussex Drive in the bag. And, I’m sexier than Gore ( I have references ), and, unlike Bush ( Shrub ) I know where many of the nations that have dealings with the US actually *are*. Gotta watch out for those Maine Texans…

Paint drying is sexier than Gore.  I’m afraid you’ll have to do better than than for my vote. Andre

JW

Response:

<snip Hey ! Because of a grossly discriminatory law ( an interesting anamoly, in a nation of immigrants ), I have zero shot at the Presidency. So, that’s it, I will have to go for Prime Minister. The only problem is, which of the five parties will I use ? The Bloc Quebecois are right out, as they only run in Quebec ( around 75 out of 300 seats in Commons ), so I can’t win a general election there. The NDP ( Not Destined for Power ) are kinda moribund, the Tories are more so, and the Reformers don’t even know what their name is going to be. And, the Liberals, *ain’t*. You’re forgetting about the Greens, Andre!  8% of the vote in BC and growing!  I think we form a Green-Rhino coalition and we’ve got 24 Sussex Drive in the bag.

Fair enough. Whenever I’ve had the opportunity to vote Rhino, I have. But, does that mean that I will have to share the Prime Ministry ? I’m not sure how my s/o will like that. <g And, I’m sexier than Gore ( I have references ), and, unlike Bush ( Shrub ) I know where many of the nations that have dealings with the US actually *are*. Gotta watch out for those Maine Texans… Paint drying is sexier than Gore.  I’m afraid you’ll have to do better than than for my vote.

Well, that’s who I had available, to compare to. Were the candidates sexier, I betcha that I could still beat ‘em. But, for a reference for that, I may have to ask my s/o to take a few minutes at the school where she teaches ( and, just today, came up with a brilliant method to ensure that her students couldn’t cheat, when correcting multiple choice quizzes. Definitely Sec Ed material, from where I sit ). So, what would I have to do, bed Tipper ? Andre JW

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

hiya Ziggy,     I think Al Gore did a recent "flip" as far as fathers are concerned.  -  I guess he realized that dads and men in general make up a large portion of the voting population.

I must have missed it – can you point me to where he may have voiced support for fatherhood? (I know that he supports the "Fathers Count Act", but based on his comments at the NFI gathering, he seems to support it as a weapon to be used against fathers who are unable to economically support their children –  the right thing for the wrong reason. I am happy to see any support for this bill, though.) He has provided *numerous* times the stupid terminology "dead-beat dads". Use of this term in a political context is not helpful to these issues, it is merely inflammatory demagoguery. Gore has shown that he is perfectly willing to color outside of the lines in order to attempt to jumpstart his lackluster campaign. (Gosh, for a nation of 240 million people *this* is the best we could do for presidential candidates? Geeze.) Overall, his comments as published in the Massachusetts Times show a complete disregard for the value of fatherhood. The issue that many fathers face is that the government and society work actively and passively *against* any inclination that divorced or separated fathers would have to be involved with thier children. The comment about showing "respect" for the children’s mother was particularly ironic – NCP parents are catagorically shown an utter lack of respect by the instruments of government – many parents who faithfully pay child support find themselves harrassed by support collection agancies nonetheless (the stories are astounding) and "visitation rights" are generally ignored by the courts and police. Hell, "respect"? Most fatheres would settle for basic civility and some recogition of their existing *legal* rights, never mind parenting rights. So, f*ck Al Gore and his gang of father-hating scum. But let him screw up his own damn kids, meanwhile I’ll fight the battle for *my* kids, regardless of what I have to do. There – blew off some steam. Feels good. I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns. Fido

Response:

I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns.

Oh, so *she* gets the presidency, and all I get is some lousy nomination for NYS senator?  Hrmmmmph.                    |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro  | they do not make it under El nos hace        |U. of Illinois   | circumstances of their own choosing

Response:

In article I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns. Oh, so *she* gets the presidency, and all I get is some lousy nomination for NYS senator?  Hrmmmmph.

Umm, I promised her the job. Best – Fido               |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro  | they do not make it under El nos hace        |U. of Illinois   | circumstances of their own choosing

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns. Oh, so *she* gets the presidency, and all I get is some lousy nomination for NYS senator?  Hrmmmmph.

Hey ! Because of a grossly discriminatory law ( an interesting anamoly, in a nation of immigrants ), I have zero shot at the Presidency. So, that’s it, I will have to go for Prime Minister. The only problem is, which of the five parties will I use ? The Bloc Quebecois are right out, as they only run in Quebec ( around 75 out of 300 seats in Commons ), so I can’t win a general election there. The NDP ( Not Destined for Power ) are kinda moribund, the Tories are more so, and the Reformers don’t even know what their name is going to be. And, the Liberals, *ain’t*. And, I’m sexier than Gore ( I have references ), and, unlike Bush ( Shrub ) I know where many of the nations that have dealings with the US actually *are*. Gotta watch out for those Maine Texans…               |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro  | they do not make it under El nos hace        |U. of Illinois   | circumstances of their own choosing

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

    I think Al Gore did a recent "flip" as far as fathers are oncerned.  -  I guess he realized that dads and men in general make up a large portion of the voting population.

One can hope… <g     IMHO,  CS payments should be made to a central controlling agency (and I don’t even like the sound of that)

I’ve read over your proposal, and while I will admit that I am not as well versed in this area as some ( as it wasn’t any part of my divorce ), I do have some research and thoughts to play with. In general, I would prefer to keep the bureaucrats out of it, wherever possible, so if you have a situation where the couple has a working court order, or a working agreement, then I’d say, leave the central body *out*. They will only add to complexity, and paperwork, in which deals can be fubared. Plus, monies sent to be processed to such a body, will take *longer* to get to their intended place. Proving general expenses, day to day, would be very time consuming, and people, especially divorced parents haven’t got enough of that commodity. So, I’d go with a CS level determined by setting an annual budget, taking into account such things as the difference between a one and a two bedroom place, at the place where the CS recipient is living ( often, the difference is relatively paltry ), if there is one child, for example. Beyond that, I am not in favour of forcing a parent to hold, or give, monies to an adult child. No married parent can be forced to do that, and this provision, IMHO, discriminates against a divorced parent. If one, or both, parents wish to fund a post secondary education for their 18 year old, that ought to remain their *choice*. No one elses. Proportional expensing can easily run into great problems, with growing children, who go through a lot more clothing, in a shorter span of time, than do most adults. So, expenses there would have to run along another track. An annual budget could better deal with this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         1.  …where the money is doled out to the parent who is awarded payment, after expense vouchers are submitted to prove the money was spent on the children.         2.    The child support award money should be put in a interest drawing escrow account.         3.    Any money not used in any month would be held in this account to be available for a time when expenses are greater in one month as against another.                 Any monies left over over the length of time it takes for a child to reach 18 would be used to further their education. If the child does not choose to go to college, or vocational school, then the money would be given to them as a "stake" in whatever direction they choose to go (since the money should belong to them anyhow).         4.    A fair "lodging" amount can be determined for the child/children’s "room" expense to be applied to the monthly rental and proportionate maintenance expense of an apartment or house.         5.    The same as above can be determined for the child/children’s "board" expenses (food, clothing, and such…)     This plan can be "fleshed out" to eliminate the usual complaint of the other spouse spending child support payments on their private expenses and not on the children.  The time spent doing "parenting" resposibilities would not be compensated for.  Being a parent is rewarding enough if the offspring become a credit to the parents.  If not, then reflect on the things you did wrong.

Yep, no CS ought to be there to " compensate " the CS recipient for parenting the kids. As for spending CS on themselves… if there is the proper amount of money budgeted for the child’s needs, then thihs would not really be much of a problem, as it could be reduced to, I’ll take a fiver from here, and put it back, the next time I go to Safeways. I’m less concerned about the accounting, then I am about the results. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Can our readers add responsible additions to this plan?  I’m sure they can.  Let’s hear it. I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay?  (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers) Read Sanford Braver’s " Divorced Dads ", he has a ton of studies in there that address exactly this, among other things. Overall, that’s the best book about the true state of divorce that I have ever read. With a look to my bookshelves, and my local library, I could suggest a comprehensive reading list. There are deadbeat moms, and many of them do the same as the dads that fail their kids, both in CS, as well as parenting. I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child support. Not necessarily. The best would be for a presumed 50/50 arrangement, with the courts sanctioning whoever tries to sabotage it. That would make most CS deals unnecessary. As each parent would pay for what they expend, while the child is with them, and the court orders, done right, would cover long term costs, such as school, and the like. What is, a dad has his two kids, and he makes $60k, while the ex makes $35k ? As he makes more, is she off the hook to support *her* kids, just ’cause she makes less then him ? Why ought her lesser paystubs stick him with the full costs of raising *their* kids ?

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

    Eloquently said FIDO.  I’m behind you 100%

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al Gore is a moron. Well, he is or isn’t, but these statements are moronic. Just a classic case of a liberal democrate bowing down to the women’s movement and their unsubstantiated figures they throw around. Sure – 51% of the voters are women. Hey, gotta get elected, you know. In Maine, our Governor shows his strongest support among women, something like 74% support – he says the strangest things to shore up that constituency. Polioticians may be great politicians – but that doesn’t necessarily translate into great lawmakers. But, that’s the system we got. I realize ALOT of fathers don’t pay support. And they should get what is coming to them. Agreed. But, the majority of fathers do pay their child support. But Gore and his gang portray pretty much all fathers of divorced familys as dead-beat-dads. Ignoring the real numbers. Inflating them to get votes. I’m a single full-time dad. My ex-wife has’nt paid me a dime of what she owes me in support for going on 6 months now. She is too busy being the "party-girl" to give her daughter any kind of involvement much less any kind of financial support. I am so sick of hearing about it being ONLY the fathers. And the politics is highlighted by that point – fathers pay a greater percentage of thier child support then mother who are required to pay child support. But Gore continues to use the inflammatory term "dead beat *dad*", while at the same time ignoring the larger and more significant issue of fatherlessness in the lives of *many* children. The present social programs provide not one whit of assistance for fathers who want to be more involved in thier childrens’ lives – instead, as many of us know – works to drive the father *out* of his children’s lives. The massive failure of this social initiative has not been address by those who make social policy – instaed they are happy to blame the wholesale social failure of these programs on those fathers themselves. Absurd, but unless the government recognizes that the family is a social unit better then any social program that might be created by government – instead, the government is happy to try to *replace* the father with expensive social programs. As a father who has made extraordinary sacrifices to stay closely involved with the lives of his children under difficult circumstances, I understand this process too well. And I also understand the many fathers who just give up on thier children, rather then continue to battle against the social "war against fathers" which drives them out of the lives of thier children. This is not a social system that works well, and no amount of social policy will replace, for many children, the benefits of having both parents involved in thier upbringing. Our "social scientists" refuse to recognize that fact, do not see the simple things that can be done to encourage the involvement of the father, and instead perpetuate the system that requires fathers to only be paychecks to thier children. A parent is a parent. Mother or Father. They BOTH should contribute to the well being of the child. Financially and emotionally. Yes, but social scientists do not consider anything other then the economic crisis that those very same social scientists have created. And rather then changing policies to support and encourage those fathers who do want to be involved in the lives of thier children (and there are good arguments that emotional involvement of the father is *much* more important then any incremental economic benefit to the children) they crank up the policies that continue to drive fathers out of the lives of the children. These policies will not, in the long term or short term, work. The contradiction that is created can be seen clearly in the social worker community – the problems of fatherlessness are almost universally recognized. And the system and policies that work in a hostile manner *against* father is perpetuated. Somehow, the connection between the two has not, on a wholesale level, been made. I have posted here about the *denial* that the social professions are in about this issue. My ex does neither. Just another case of a democrat kissing the rear end of a movement that regards the fathers involvement in his childrens lives as detrimental anyway. Married or divorced. They really don’t give a damn about the kids – they are just happy to hump the provocative "dead-beat dad" myth, bemoaning fatherlessness, while working actively to drive fathers out of the lives of thier children. I’ve been doing this long enough so that I have heard and lived thier lies too long. To hell with them, I will do it myself. Gore and his pals can continue their big circle jerk, and screwing up the lives of children. Best – Fido

Response:

Excerpted from the Washington Time, 03 JUN 00 p. A4 From the guy who "invented the internet". A good reason for requiring

intellegence tests of anyone who offers to run for President. This long-time democrat has finally given up on that party. GORE FAVORS FORCING DADS INTO SUPPORTING by Cheryl Wetzstein Vice President Al Gore yesterday told a national fatherhood summit that he would boost child support enforcement as the "next step in welfare reform" if he is elected president. We’ve been requiring work and support of the mothers; let’s require it of the fathers," he told the National Fatherhood Initiative’s third summit. He said he would urge credit card companies "to deny credit to any parent who owes a substantial amount of child support." "Deadbeat dads should pay what they owe to their children, or they will leave home without it," he said parodying the American Express credit-card ad. Mr. Gore also pledged that all federally funded fatherhood programs would be required to have provisions to stem domestic violence. He said, "every father needs to understand that being a dad means respecting the mother of your children." When the vice-president that "only one in four parents who owe child support actually pays that child support," an unidentified man in the audience yelled "That’s a lie." Federal data shows that "70% of fathers pay child support," the man said. Gore joked about whether the heckler "was on the program later" and repeated his data, clarifying that he was "not talking about those who have court orders being enforced against them."

Response:

Al Gore is a moron. Just a classic case of a liberal democrate bowing down to the women’s movement and their unsubstantiated figures they throw around. I realize ALOT of fathers don’t pay support. And they should get what is coming to them. But Gore and his gang portray pretty much all fathers of divorced familys as dead-beat-dads. Ignoring the real numbers. Inflating them to get votes. I’m a single full-time dad. My ex-wife has’nt paid me a dime of what she owes me in support for going on 6 months now. She is too busy being the "party-girl" to give her daughter any kind of involvement much less any kind of financial support. I am so sick of hearing about it being ONLY the fathers. A parent is a parent. Mother or Father. They BOTH should contribute to the well being of the child. Financially and emotionally. My ex does neither. Just another case of a democrat kissing the rear end of a movement that regards the fathers involvement in his childrens lives as detrimental anyway. Married or divorced.

Response:

 Personally I’ve always believed that vice presidents were picked to insure the pres wouldn’t be killed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpted from the Washington Time, 03 JUN 00 p. A4 From the guy who "invented the internet". A good reason for requiring intellegence tests of anyone who offers to run for President. This long-time democrat has finally given up on that party. GORE FAVORS FORCING DADS INTO SUPPORTING by Cheryl Wetzstein Vice President Al Gore yesterday told a national fatherhood summit that he would boost child support enforcement as the "next step in welfare reform" if he is elected president. We’ve been requiring work and support of the mothers; let’s require it of the fathers," he told the National Fatherhood Initiative’s third summit. He said he would urge credit card companies "to deny credit to any parent who owes a substantial amount of child support." "Deadbeat dads should pay what they owe to their children, or they will leave home without it," he said parodying the American Express credit-card ad. Mr. Gore also pledged that all federally funded fatherhood programs would be required to have provisions to stem domestic violence. He said, "every father needs to understand that being a dad means respecting the mother of your children." When the vice-president that "only one in four parents who owe child support actually pays that child support," an unidentified man in the audience yelled "That’s a lie." Federal data shows that "70% of fathers pay child support," the man said. Gore joked about whether the heckler "was on the program later" and repeated his data, clarifying that he was "not talking about those who have court orders being enforced against them."

– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water"        old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944

Response:

I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay?  (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers) I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child suport .

Response:

I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child suport .

Child support should be rare. Try sharing your "toys" instead. Then take responsibilty for them when you have them. Child support is just the flip side of saying "We will kidnap your children."

Response:

Al Gore is a moron.

Well, he is or isn’t, but these statements are moronic. Just a classic case of a liberal democrate bowing down to the women’s movement and their unsubstantiated figures they throw around.

Sure – 51% of the voters are women. Hey, gotta get elected, you know. In Maine, our Governor shows his strongest support among women, something like 74% support – he says the strangest things to shore up that constituency. Polioticians may be great politicians – but that doesn’t necessarily translate into great lawmakers. But, that’s the system we got. I realize ALOT of fathers don’t pay support. And they should get what is coming to them.

Agreed. But, the majority of fathers do pay their child support. But Gore and his gang portray pretty much all fathers of divorced familys as dead-beat-dads. Ignoring the real numbers. Inflating them to get votes. I’m a single full-time dad. My ex-wife has’nt paid me a dime of what she owes me in support for going on 6 months now. She is too busy being the "party-girl" to give her daughter any kind of involvement much less any kind of financial support. I am so sick of hearing about it being ONLY the fathers.

And the politics is highlighted by that point – fathers pay a greater percentage of thier child support then mother who are required to pay child support. But Gore continues to use the inflammatory term "dead beat *dad*", while at the same time ignoring the larger and more significant issue of fatherlessness in the lives of *many* children. The present social programs provide not one whit of assistance for fathers who want to be more involved in thier childrens’ lives – instead, as many of us know – works to drive the father *out* of his children’s lives. The massive failure of this social initiative has not been address by those who make social policy – instaed they are happy to blame the wholesale social failure of these programs on those fathers themselves. Absurd, but unless the government recognizes that the family is a social unit better then any social program that might be created by government – instead, the government is happy to try to *replace* the father with expensive social programs. As a father who has made extraordinary sacrifices to stay closely involved with the lives of his children under difficult circumstances, I understand this process too well. And I also understand the many fathers who just give up on thier children, rather then continue to battle against the social "war against fathers" which drives them out of the lives of thier children. This is not a social system that works well, and no amount of social policy will replace, for many children, the benefits of having both parents involved in thier upbringing. Our "social scientists" refuse to recognize that fact, do not see the simple things that can be done to encourage the involvement of the father, and instead perpetuate the system that requires fathers to only be paychecks to thier children. A parent is a parent. Mother or Father. They BOTH should contribute to the well being of the child. Financially and emotionally.

Yes, but social scientists do not consider anything other then the economic crisis that those very same social scientists have created. And rather then changing policies to support and encourage those fathers who do want to be involved in the lives of thier children (and there are good arguments that emotional involvement of the father is *much* more important then any incremental economic benefit to the children) they crank up the policies that continue to drive fathers out of the lives of the children. These policies will not, in the long term or short term, work. The contradiction that is created can be seen clearly in the social worker community – the problems of fatherlessness are almost universally recognized. And the system and policies that work in a hostile manner *against* father is perpetuated. Somehow, the connection between the two has not, on a wholesale level, been made. I have posted here about the *denial* that the social professions are in about this issue. My ex does neither. Just another case of a democrat kissing the rear end of a movement that regards the fathers involvement in his childrens lives as detrimental anyway. Married or divorced.

They really don’t give a damn about the kids – they are just happy to hump the provocative "dead-beat dad" myth, bemoaning fatherlessness, while working actively to drive fathers out of the lives of thier children. I’ve been doing this long enough so that I have heard and lived thier lies too long. To hell with them, I will do it myself. Gore and his pals can continue their big circle jerk, and screwing up the lives of children. Best – Fido

Response:

I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay?  (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers)

Read Sanford Braver’s " Divorced Dads ", he has a ton of studies in there that address exactly this, among other things. Overall, that’s the best book about the true state of divorce that I have ever read. With a look to my bookshelves, and my local library, I could suggest a comprehensive reading list. There are deadbeat moms, and many of them do the same as the dads that fail their kids, both in CS, as well as parenting. I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child support.

Not necessarily. The best would be for a presumed 50/50 arrangement, with the courts sanctioning whoever tries to sabotage it. That would make most CS deals unnecessary. As each parent would pay for what they expend, while the child is with them, and the court orders, done right, would cover long term costs, such as school, and the like. What is, a dad has his two kids, and he makes $60k, while the ex makes $35k ? As he makes more, is she off the hook to support *her* kids, just ’cause she makes less then him ? Why ought her lesser paystubs stick him with the full costs of raising *their* kids ? Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

    I think Al Gore did a recent "flip" as far as fathers are oncerned.  -  I guess he realized that dads and men in general make up a large portion of the voting population.     IMHO,  CS payments should be made to a central controlling agency (and I don’t even like the sound of that)         1.  …where the money is doled out to the parent who is awarded payment, after expense vouchers are submitted to prove the money was spent on the children.         2.    The child support award money should be put in a interest drawing escrow account.         3.    Any money not used in any month would be held in this account to be available for a time when expenses are greater in one month as against another.                 Any monies left over over the length of time it takes for a child to reach 18 would be used to further their education. If the child does not choose to go to college, or vocational school, then the money would be given to them as a "stake" in whatever direction they choose to go (since the money should belong to them anyhow).         4.    A fair "lodging" amount can be determined for the child/children’s "room" expense to be applied to the monthly rental and proportionate maintenance expense of an apartment or house.         5.    The same as above can be determined for the child/children’s "board" expenses (food, clothing, and such…)     This plan can be "fleshed out" to eliminate the usual complaint of the other spouse spending child support payments on their private expenses and not on the children.  The time spent doing "parenting" resposibilities would not be compensated for.  Being a parent is rewarding enough if the offspring become a credit to the parents.  If not, then reflect on the things you did wrong.     Can our readers add responsible additions to this plan?  I’m sure they can.  Let’s hear it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay?  (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers) Read Sanford Braver’s " Divorced Dads ", he has a ton of studies in there that address exactly this, among other things. Overall, that’s the best book about the true state of divorce that I have ever read. With a look to my bookshelves, and my local library, I could suggest a comprehensive reading list. There are deadbeat moms, and many of them do the same as the dads that fail their kids, both in CS, as well as parenting. I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child support. Not necessarily. The best would be for a presumed 50/50 arrangement, with the courts sanctioning whoever tries to sabotage it. That would make most CS deals unnecessary. As each parent would pay for what they expend, while the child is with them, and the court orders, done right, would cover long term costs, such as school, and the like. What is, a dad has his two kids, and he makes $60k, while the ex makes $35k ? As he makes more, is she off the hook to support *her* kids, just ’cause she makes less then him ? Why ought her lesser paystubs stick him with the full costs of raising *their* kids ? Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

Question:

I find this very hard to believe.  Out here on the west coast, any reasonble advertisement for a job gets close to one hundred qualified applicants.  It sounds like a BW puff piece, or their is something very unusual about the situation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course we have a historically low unemployment rate and top accounting Big Six bound students have always seemed to do fairly well when the economy was decent but hows the market overall? I saw a Bus Week article on the tight labor mkts for younger workers and they had this bit on 21 yr old interns at Deloitte and Touche in Chicago who had free "luxury apartments" with maid service, free laptops, a lake view and were paid $3900 a month plus overtime.         Is this just the Chicago area? Just Big Six bound top students? There have always been puff pieces like this about the employers being so desperate yet you always hear conflicting stories. Old age discrimination, preference for really young cheaper college grads, very picky employers, preference for foreign workers, etc. etc. Norman Matiloff for insistance, a Comp Sci professor has collected a large amount of evidence that high tech companies which scream about shortages all the time, routinely discriminate against 35+ age workers and are very picky only hiring a miniscule amount of the people who apply preferring young college grads or foreign workers.

Response:

I think it is a combination of hype and employers who want dirt cheap technical labor.  There was something recently about a glut of unemployed computer engineering types who had passed the golden portal of 35 !without entering management! and were hence considered unemployable by the high tech industry. Accounting has always been like that, except the age of unemployability was lower.  Age discrimination is the norm rather than the exception.  If your not in management, or can bring your own clients along, your usually dead at thirty.  There are a few execptions for tax specialists and some obscurities.  Its alwasy been that way, and I doubt if it will ever change. ((Yes, I know there about the Federal Age Discrimination Act of 1978 (?), but I’ve never met a Public Accountant who took it seriously.)) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find this very hard to believe.  Out here on the west coast, any reasonble advertisement for a job gets close to one hundred qualified applicants.  It sounds like a BW puff piece, or their is something very unusual about the situation.     Geez, after I read about the situation in high tech I thought it was actually a conspiracy the night and day scenario painted by Matiloff and others and this constant stream of hype about how employers were virtually so desperate they grabbing people off the street – a phrase a commentator on economics made a few months ago. I saw another dire warning about the critical shortage of people who want to work in high tech in the US.     Of course I know the Federal Reserve Bank  is thinking about raising sort term int rates because the "labor market is too tight" , but there seems to be a weird disconnection in the two portrayals. I thought maybe in the accounting field it was actually true though.

Response:

Question:

I am looking for individuals interested in Marketing-Controlling. Focussing on communications, I would like to discuss success-measurement, benchmarking and budget-planning issues. Moreover, I am looking for companies with practical experience in Marketing-Controlling.

And my guess is …. "Marketing-Controlling" means ensuring selective distribution channels or territorial integrity against the threats posed by ‘parallel trading’. or maybe not Regards Morris Tarragano

Response:

Would you please elaborate on customer based accounting.  Does this mean that you track marketing costs individually for all of your clients?  I have heard this term used before, but am not sure that I understand its meaning. Thanks in advance. — Jason Hagerman Carroll Publishing Federal Charts and Directories 1058 Thomas Jefferson St, Washington DC, 20037 voice (202)333-8620 Fax: (202)337-7020 Jay Curry wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We use a concept "Customr Based Accounting" to measure ROI on marketing and sales spend. Beancounters love it. Jay Curry MSP Associats Amsterdam

Response:

I am looking for individuals interested in Marketing-Controlling. Focussing on communications, I would like to discuss success-measurement, benchmarking and budget-planning issues. Moreover, I am looking for companies with practical experience in Marketing-Controlling. Regards, Jan-Eric Meyer-Hubbert

Response:

I am looking for individuals interested in Marketing-Controlling.

What do you mean by this term? Doug Doug Hoy              Evaluation           National Museum of (613)998-6863v         Research       P.O.Box 9724, Station T (613)990-3654f                          Ottawa K1G 5A3 CANADA **Opinions expressed are not necessarily shared by the NMSTC**

Response:

I am looking for individuals interested in Marketing-Controlling. Focussing on communications, I would like to discuss success-measurement, benchmarking and budget-planning issues. Moreover, I am looking for companies with practical experience in Marketing-Controlling.

Dear Jan-Eric, By the term "Marketing-Controlling" are you referring to intergrated planning tools for market modeling (sales forecasting) and business modeling (pro-forma cost relationships) such as BCG and MIT Enterprise spreadsheet appliations? Maybe we could be more helpful if you could provide more detail on you information requirements. Sherman Whipple, Sargent & Associates Strategic Services 10 Industrial Park Road, Hingham, MA 02043 http://www.whipplesargent.com

Response:

I am looking for individuals interested in Marketing-Controlling.

I’ve noticed the newish job title Marketing Controller, I think, like President, Marketing it’s a Marketing Director. Do sex firms have Vice Presidents Marketing or make do with S&M Managers? John John Block                         Creative, marketing aware work which Freelance Copywriter               talks rather than blandly bores,                                    actively promotes your product, International                      and aims to be the best Welcomes Dollar and Sterling,      in your market sector.

Response:

We use a concept "Customr Based Accounting" to measure ROI on marketing and sales spend. Beancounters love it.   Is this the kind of thing you are looking for? Jay Curry MSP Associats Amsterdam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for individuals interested in Marketing-Controlling. What do you mean by this term? Doug

Response:

Question:

carl bennett wrote: > I know the Damerons personally, and I just wanted to point out that any > checks sent to the > address in Mr. Dameron’s post do not go directly to him. The address is > a mail drop that > is administered by the accounting firm that Mr. Dameron employs for his > business and personal affairs. The checks are deposited into a seperate > bank account by the accounting firm. > As far as why things were set up this particular way, I’m not quite > sure. I guess that is between Mr. Dameron and his accountant.

Who is Carl Bennett?  He’s never posted here before.  Isn’t it curious that when people are pointing out this may be a scam, a friend pops out of the woodwork in defense.  You only make it look more lioke a scam. If this were legitimate you would be giving the address of a trustee, not defending the curious arrangement. Since neither of these people has never posted here before, they should be greeted with great skepticism.   — I  |   Randall Bart L  |/   mailto:Barti…@usa.spam.net    Barti…@worldnet.att.spam.net o  |   1-310-542-6013                       Please reply without spam v  |      Todd McCormick released after 12 day illegal incarceration e    | for using Marinol w/ prescription: http://www.freecannabis.org Y    |/     http://www.marijuanamagazine.com/toc/articles/toddfree.htm o    | Panic in the Year Zero Zero:  http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00   u    |/ Is it easy yet?:http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00/Sequence.html

Response:

Dear Friends: This is David Dameron posting to let everyone know that I have been conducting an experiment on the Internet. I was the person who posted the message regarding raising money for my daughter who was in need of a liver transplant. Well, the story was a complete fabrication on my part and was used only to raise the issue of fradulant fundraising on the Internet. I am a freelance writer, mostly writing consumer information type articles for newspapers and magazines. I am in the process of writing an article on the subject of Internet scams and frauds. After completing the article, I will submit it to my local newspapers in the hope that it will help people avoid being ripped off by unscrupulous ads, spams, or pleas for money by "needy" individuals. I also hope to submit my article to an appropriate Internet website that deals with this particular subject matter. I have accumulated a lot of valuable information from the numerous e-mail messages that I’ve received, and also from the many newsgroup postings responding to my original post. I will be incorporating much of this information into my article. As far as any money that might have been donated to my "cause", it will all be returned to the individuals who donated it, along with a thank you note for their generosity and a warning to be more careful in the future about responding to these types of unsubstantiated pleas for money. I apologize if I have upset or angered anyone in the course of conducting my research. I feel that a lot of very important issues were raised and discussed on the subject of Internet frauds and scams, and I hope that we are all a bit wiser as a result. I have contacted my local police department regarding my motivation and intent in conducting this fact finding experiment. Best regards, David Dameron —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

In article <1998042116302200.MAA01…@ladder01.news.aol.com>, mjknpe…@aol.com (MJKNPETER) writes: >Am I a terrible skeptic?  I just wonder why the checks should go to this guy >personally and not to a  trust fund set up in his daughter’s name at , say, >the >local bank.

I’m with you!  If this is legitimate, I would recommend that a trust fund be set up by the father at a local bank and that the trustee be someone other than the parents. That is what is customary and correct in this age of swindlers and internet crooks.  Until then, little Marie just gets my prayers–not my money. : Mother of 2 children with T.S+., OCD. ADHD

Response:

I must agree, unfortunatly.  This day and age brings to many scam artists preying on people’s hearts.  To the person who posted I apologize deeply for my remarks but please set up the trust to go directly to the hospital in your daughter’s name with a phone number at the hospital..  Re-post and people will be more willing to help.  God Bless you and your family. Nannette – Net1…@aol.com

Response:

I know the Damerons personally, and I just wanted to point out that any checks sent to the address in Mr. Dameron’s post do not go directly to him. The address is a mail drop that is administered by the accounting firm that Mr. Dameron employs for his business and personal affairs. The checks are deposited into a seperate bank account by the accounting firm. As far as why things were set up this particular way, I’m not quite sure. I guess that is between Mr. Dameron and his accountant.

Response:

>PRE>Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP SAVE OUR DAUGHTER’S LIFE ! >From:

Am I a terrible skeptic?  I just wonder why the checks should go to this guy personally and not to a  trust fund set up in his daughter’s name at , say, the local bank.  This is how I’ve always seen it done for legitimate claims in my home town. Janice

Response:

######################################################## I apologize for this off-topic post to this newsgroup, but my wife and I desperately need help in order to save our 16 month old daughter’s life. Our little girl, Marie Jessica Dameron, suffers from a congenital liver ailment called Biliary Atresia. Infants born with this serious ailment rarely live past the age of two. Marie desperately needs a liver transplant in order for her to survive. But the estimated cost of the liver transplant surgery is around $100,000. Unfortunately, our insurance will not pay for it. My wife and I started a fundraising campaign in our hometown area about two months ago. With the help of hundreds of caring people, we were able to raise about $35,000. But we are still far short of our goal. We need to raise at least another $65,000 by the end of July 1998 in order to guarantee that Marie will get a new liver. Marie has already been accepted at a transplant center, meaning that her name has been placed on a waiting list. She is now in line to receive a liver donation sometime during the next 3 to 6 months. But this is contingent upon my wife and I raising the $100,000 to pay for the transplant surgery. If we can’t raise the necessary funds, our daughter’s name will be taken off the waiting list. She will then eventually die from liver failure, probably before the end of 1998. Every day my wife and I pray for a miracle to happen for our little girl. We know there are a lot of good and caring people across the United States. We are praying that enough of you will come to our daughter’s aid and help save her life, for which my wife and I will be eternally grateful. Please help us save Marie’s life by donating whatever amount you can. No amount is too small. Any and all donations will be greatly and lovingly appreciated. If you can’t afford to donate any money to our daughter’s cause, please help by saying a prayer for her. God bless all of you and thank you from the bottom of our hearts. As I am typing this message, my wife and daughter are several hundred miles away in Northern California, where Marie is undergoing a series of medical tests in preparation for her anticipated surgery later this year. For those who can afford to, please send your donations to the following address: David Dameron 12011 Victory Blvd. #104-98 North Hollywood, CA 91606 All donations will be acknowledged and a follow-up letter will be sent after Marie’s anticipated upcoming surgery. My wife and I have arranged to have any donated amount that is above what is necessary to pay for our daughter’s surgery to be given to a pre-selected local charity that provides care for children with leukemia. Please pass this message along to others who might not see this post. Thank you very much and God bless you. ——————————————————– —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - (fundraisi…@webtv.net) writes: > ######################################################## > I apologize for this off-topic post to this newsgroup, > but my wife and I desperately need help in order to save > our 16 month old daughter’s life. Our little girl, Marie > Jessica Dameron, suffers from a congenital liver ailment > called Biliary Atresia. Infants born with this serious > ailment rarely live past the age of two. > Marie desperately needs a liver transplant in order for > her to survive. But the estimated cost of the liver > transplant surgery is around $100,000. Unfortunately, > our insurance will not pay for it. > My wife and I started a fundraising campaign in our > hometown area about two months ago. With the help of > hundreds of caring people, we were able to raise about > $35,000. But we are still far short of our goal. We > need to raise at least another $65,000 by the end of > July 1998 in order to guarantee that Marie will get a > new liver. > Marie has already been accepted at a transplant center, > meaning that her name has been placed on a waiting list. > She is now in line to receive a liver donation sometime > during the next 3 to 6 months. > But this is contingent upon my wife and I raising the > $100,000 to pay for the transplant surgery. If we can’t > raise the necessary funds, our daughter’s name will be > taken off the waiting list. She will then eventually die > from liver failure, probably before the end of 1998. > Every day my wife and I pray for a miracle to happen for > our little girl. We know there are a lot of good and > caring people across the United States. We are praying > that enough of you will come to our daughter’s aid and > help save her life, for which my wife and I will be > eternally grateful. > Please help us save Marie’s life by donating whatever > amount you can. No amount is too small. Any and all > donations will be greatly and lovingly appreciated. > If you can’t afford to donate any money to our > daughter’s cause, please help by saying a prayer for > her. God bless all of you and thank you from the bottom > of our hearts. > As I am typing this message, my wife and daughter are > several hundred miles away in Northern California, where > Marie is undergoing a series of medical tests in > preparation for her anticipated surgery later this year. > For those who can afford to, please send your donations > to the following address: > David Dameron > 12011 Victory Blvd. #104-98 > North Hollywood, CA 91606 > All donations will be acknowledged and a follow-up > letter will be sent after Marie’s anticipated upcoming > surgery. > My wife and I have arranged to have any donated amount > that is above what is necessary to pay for our > daughter’s surgery to be given to a pre-selected local > charity that provides care for children with leukemia. > Please pass this message along to others who might not > see this post. Thank you very much and God bless you. > ——————————————————– > —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– > http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Hi: I will certainly say a prayer for your little girl and your family.I will also offer up a Rosary for her intentions, and keep in mind that God loves her, is watching over her, and can, in fact, provide miracles at times, and will always give you the strength you will need for this and any other hardships that might come one’s way.God Bless. Irina, mother of 7. — ******* IRINA SHOUSHOUNOVA bo693 or Love…@ottawa.com *******            Happiness and blessing are the reward of          those who accept  the Gospel and the Saviour. ******** Home Page: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bo693 ********

Response:

Question:

A.J. Otto wrote I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. For serious exhaust check out squirrel cage blowers at Grainger.

Well … paint and other fumes implies finishing.  I don’t think that you’ll be happy just opening one window and blowing fumes out the other. There’ll be a lot of dust/bugs/pollen landing on your wet finish. How about buying one of those fine dust collectors that everyone is using now?  Cut it in half, put the filters on one window and the exhaust on the other.  Floors and walls better be really clean though. One other thought … spray rooms use explosion proof fans.  If you don’t want to go for that, you might get a used blower from an old oil burner. Many fuel companies sell new ones and have to cart the old ones away.  You could pick up a huge blower quite cheaply.

Response:

I find it a real pain to have fans in the shop. I have a small shop and all these extra people just get in the way. Then they want to use the bathroom….. — Tom Corey to reply remove "spamkill" from address

Response:

Same comment apply to cheerleaders? writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it a real pain to have fans in the shop. I have a small shop and all these extra people just get in the way. Then they want to use the bathroom…..

Response:

I obtained a used squirrel-cage blower and motor from a friend in the heating and air conditioning business.  (Mine were free, but if you have to pay, it shouldn’t be much.  There is no market for used parts.)  I mounted mine on a wood base, so I can roll it around the shop.  You could mount yours permanantly, if you prefer.  These things throw a huge amount of air.  Just be sure to regulate the airflow so that the motor draws the correct amps, or you could burn out the motor (or worse). A.J. Otto wrote I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. For serious exhaust check out squirrel cage blowers at Grainger.

– PLEASE NOTE (New Address): My e-mail address has been disguised to defeat automated spam programs.  For my correct address, please change  "elsewhere" to "mindspring", but leave off the quotation marks.  Sorry for the inconvenience.

Response:

I found an old broken window air conditioning unit that works well.  I advertised on the e-mail for a window unit where the air conditioner was broken but the fan still worked.  It fit in nicely with the available adjusters and is built to handle the differing weather conditions. Good luck, Joe P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Andrew, I was at Home Depot just last night looking for the same thing. Look in the bathroom dept. they have a bunch of fans that can be mounted through a window. One thing I noticed, only a few are rated for continuous operation. You should also make sure it has a flap or something to seal out the weather. Regards, Ron Alexander I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Joseph B. Paperman Assistant Professor of Accounting School of Business Administration University of Washington Box 353200 Seattle, WA  98195-3200

Response:

A.J. Otto wrote I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated.

For serious exhaust check out squirrel cage blowers at Grainger.

Response:

I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Response:

Shop fans? I’m agin ‘em. They always applaud at inappropriate times and spill popcorn all over the floor. heh heh heh heh Billie

Response:

You can find window fans of all different sizes and designs and prices at most major appliance stores (e.g., Best Buy, Service Merchandise, etc.) and home centers. And as for shop fans, yeah they are a nuisance when they spill the popcorn, and all the clapping and cheering can be distracting, but I must say that they are great for the ego. Howard in Miami

Response:

Andrew, I was at Home Depot just last night looking for the same thing. Look in the bathroom dept. they have a bunch of fans that can be mounted through a window. One thing I noticed, only a few are rated for continuous operation. You should also make sure it has a flap or something to seal out the weather. Regards, Ron Alexander – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Response:

I’ve been looking for one that will fit into a basement window that has those small sliding glass / screen windows installed (virtually permanently).  I was unable to find anything that would fit well, so right now I hang a little fan from the ceiling in front of it, but that doesn’t work too well.  Let me know if you happen to find anything like that or some alternate (other than the usual — Home Depot, etc.) sources. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am setting up my basement shop and I am looking for a system to vent paint and other fumes. I have a couple of those small basement windows that I can use. Any suggestions on where to get a fan, what to use, and how to install the system would be appreciated. -*Andrew*-

Response:

Question:

    "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but     it’s not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance,     you go don’t to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to     go pay.’"         — Canadian Doctor interviewed by _In Health_ see HEALTH         INSURANC [sic] archived file  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - –

 - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – As many *Canadians* have pointed out, most of these procedures are not something you need immediately.  On the other hand, the lackings of       I beg to differ.  My uncle just had a heart attack.  One artery was 100% blocked, the other 99%.  He needed angioplasty and he needed it *right then and there*.  Could he have gotten that in Canada?

        also send 1-line message: GET HEALTH INSURANC ACTIV-L to See the quote at the top. A *rational* system rations — to the extent that any society with a finite amount of resources must ration(*) — by Need, not by Bank Account Size / Blue Blood-ness, precisely what opponents of national health care advocate, and precisely what has been the case in this country for years. If Brett’s father was among the 37 million uninsured Americans in the U.S. he would no doubt have been in serious trouble. If Brett’s father had the audacity to be among the millions of poor Americans, e.g. with Medicaid, he would have been in very serious trouble indeed. The HEALTH INSURANC file avialable from the Archiver notes:     Uninsured patients and those on Medicaid were less likely to     receive three common treatment for heart disease than those with     insurance, a study of 37,994 people [found] There was something else mentioned in the In Health article (not yet in the archived file). They did a study for heart patients on waiting lists in Canada, and their survival rates. They found so-and-so many Canadians, over the N years, did die while on the waiting list for the operation. However, the mortality rate for the given operation, as it turned out, was hight! In other words, if all those patients had gotten *instant* surgery, spending zero time on the waiting list, *less* of them would have been expected to be alive after those N years (in fact, less of them, following the operation presumably). This goes to show that while the U.S. has a massive problem of over-use of expensive treatments and surgery, even Canada has some improvement to do in this regard. But it also shows that the scare-tactics about waiting lines in Canada are so often distortions if not outright lies. Again: you can ration by $$$ or you can ration by need — Canadian with the most urgent medical needs and most serious problems get treated before everyone else. In the U.S., people with grave illnesses but Not Enough Money suffer by the millions while the elites classes can afford, "ahead of them in line" the most capricious, minor, or cosmetic treatments. But there is a more fundamental issue here, a more fundamental level on which the wait-in-line horror stories are disinformation. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that we had a different country Kanada in which the identical study showed significanly higher mortality rates for those waiting in line. Then even that Kanada would be no argument whatsoever against national health care. For, it would reveal, rather, important problems with *that country’s* health care system, namely needing more hospitals, more doctors, and so on — things the U.S. already has and could certainly afford more of with the fantastic savings in the dozens of billions of dollars *per year* a National Health Plan would mean. In other words these arguments, even on those occasions when a particular charge is true, are nothing but smokescreens to divert attention from the very real benefits of National Health Insurance. (NHI) The Universal Access would be there under NHI; not so in the U.S. today, with 37 million uninsured, with     The percentage of the poor covered by Medicaid dropped from 65 to     37 percent over the decade, and Medicare now pays less than half     of the medical bills of the elderly. with millions more one catastrophe away from financial ruin. As well are all the money the insured pay, as also cited:     In fact, however, most people in the United States don’t really     have full coverage. Overall, American insurance now covers just 74     percent of the costs of doctors’ services, 39 percent of dentists’     services, and 25 percent of prescription drug charges. We pay the     rest out of pocket. The savings in the dozens of billions — enough, from administrative savings *alone*, according to the General Accounting Office, to pay for insuring all the uninsured and (fron administative savings *alone* again) perhaps to eliminate all co-payments — I’ve quoted before; use the GET command (see bottom) on the file name HEALTH INSURANC [sic] So too there would be massive savings under NHI, unlike now. so too would there be justice: Universal Access for *All* Americans, not so under the present "system" from which private insurers, and many doctors and hospitals, unfairly profit from, despite public opinion:     "Should health care be a fundamental right?"     1968, 1975, 1978 polls:         over 75% yes     In a 1988 Harris poll 90 percent of the public responded that     everyone should be entitled to care "as good as a millionaire     could get." Yet, health care in the U.S. is increasingly a     privilege. Also cited in the archived file. The smoke-screens attempt to hide these basics facts from the American public. There is not need to copy verbatim the Canadian system (or the British, or French) — as Larry Agran and others have said, our National Health Plan should be uniquely American. And making sure there are no unnecessary or unfair delays in treatment will be part of designing and implementing an American NHP, and just as the price of Democracy is Eternal Vigilance, so too will there always be responsibility for American citizens — with the power now in their hands rather than the private insurers and hospitals — to make sure there isn’t a shortage of hospitals and other problems which exist, to varying degrees in Canada or elsewhere, problems quite independence of the fundamental issue of health care as a Right, not a "privilege" and to be rationally administers to Americans by Need, not their wealth. Harel     To get a file named FILE NAME from the     archiver (files are two words  separa-     ted by a space), send the 1-line message     GET FILE NAME ACTIV-L     Use GET with the file ACTIV-L ARCHIVE for a listing of     files available with the GET command. emailed the index of archived files. e.g. GET HEALTH INSURANC ACTIV-L

Response:

There is not need to copy verbatim the Canadian system (or the British, or French) — as Larry Agran and others have said, our National Health Plan should be uniquely American.

While having presented some basic facts from recent experience back home in Canada that run counter to disinformation or outright sheer fabrications on USENET, this is an important point for Americans to note: importation of Canada’s system directly would be just next to impossible, because that system was set up in a vacuum that existed after WW II; the U.S. went to a different system, the one you have now.  The sheer size of the federal coordination of 50 state HMO’s (the "Canadian system" is only federally funded, but provincially administered) plus territories, as well as building those institutions (okay, absorb some people laid off by private insurers, but the increased unemployment will betray the administrative fat of the private health system) would be daunting. Since you folks already have a system in place, take advantage of it; put the basic bandages-to-brain surgery stuff into the public risk pool ‘cos that’s what the private insurers are balking over anyways … the private insurers can *broker* basic plans to people and get commissions plus sell private supplementary benefits such as the one that my family has, getting a private room for my Mother, etc. (Canadian hospitals look almost like American ones, just fewer paper; not airplane hangars with 200 beds a la Ceausescu’s Roumainia (<– got it right!) as critics will have you believe, and that most Americans would have no way of refuting.) The model that I’m using for the above exists … it’s the public auto insurance system of Manitoba and British Columbia.  While this system has proven no better nor worse than auto insurance in the rest of the continent, and I’m opposed to it myself, it has at least proven that a central clearinghouse can prove effective in moderating the auto plans of tens of thousands of drivers.  Auto insurance agents still exist to broker Autopac (Manitoba) or Autoplan (B.C.) …  (Myself, I’d prefer to see that the central clearinghouse is kept (and the idea used in other places), but a reversion back to private auto plans. This is not a life-critical area that justifies community acceptance of risk.) The only valid point I would concede to the anti-public health forces in America are their assertion that the U.S. has had a horrible record of implementing public services — that Canada, Europe and Australia have been successful and have experience are not entirely relevant unless you’re looking for consultants (hey, call me!).  Just shifting the risk area of basic, life-critical care to a system that has proven successful in other western democracies will probably go a long way in remedying your problems.  Doctors and hospitals can operate as always. The amazing American sense of charity can remain intact, with formals at the Waldorf for Mount Sinai Hospital on the Upper East Side, etc. Maybe I can then sign up and donate to hospitals that I can’t go to presently under Columbia’s HMO, the same kind that I’d go to back home in Canada … gld — Gary L. Dare                            The number of Canadians who — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

    "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but     it’s not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance,     you go don’t to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to     go pay.’"

        Which, of course, is a lie.  No one can be refused treatment at a hospital in the US.  No one. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

Response:

No one can be refused treatment at a hospital in the US.  No one.

No one can be refused treatment in the emergency room of a hospital in the US.  This is quite a different matter. Emergency room care is far from sufficient, since it only deals with the situation when it has gotten bad instead of dealing with it before it gets bad.  It also doesn’t include the long-term care often needed to recover – it is simply stabilize-and-send-’em-out.  It is often rushed. Need i mention that it is also expensive for the hospital? It is not complete health care and was never meant to be.  To get that, you need insurance or money in your pocket. -Cindy Kandolf  Trondheim, Norway

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but     it’s not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance,     you go don’t to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to     go pay.’"         — Canadian Doctor interviewed by _In Health_ see HEALTH         INSURANC [sic] archived file  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - –  - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – As many *Canadians* have pointed out, most of these procedures are not something you need immediately.  On the other hand, the lackings of       I beg to differ.  My uncle just had a heart attack.  One artery was 100% blocked, the other 99%.  He needed angioplasty and he needed it *right then and there*.  Could he have gotten that in Canada?         also send 1-line message: GET HEALTH INSURANC ACTIV-L to See the quote at the top. A *rational* system rations — to the extent that any society with a finite amount of resources must ration(*) — by Need, not by Bank Account Size / Blue Blood-ness, precisely what opponents of national health care advocate, and precisely what has been the case in this country for years. If Brett’s father was among the 37 million uninsured Americans in the U.S. he would no doubt have been in serious trouble. If Brett’s father had the audacity to be among the millions of poor Americans, e.g. with Medicaid, he would have been in very serious trouble indeed. The HEALTH INSURANC file avialable from the Archiver notes:     Uninsured patients and those on Medicaid were less likely to     receive three common treatment for heart disease than those with     insurance, a study of 37,994 people [found] There was something else mentioned in the In Health article (not yet in the archived file). They did a study for heart patients on waiting lists in Canada, and their survival rates. They found so-and-so many Canadians, over the N years, did die while on the waiting list for the operation. However, the mortality rate for the given operation, as it turned out, was hight! In other words, if all those patients had gotten *instant* surgery, spending zero time on the waiting list, *less* of them would have been expected to be alive after those N years (in fact, less of them, following the operation presumably). This goes to show that while the U.S. has a massive problem of over-use of expensive treatments and surgery, even Canada has some improvement to do in this regard. But it also shows that the scare-tactics about waiting lines in Canada are so often distortions if not outright lies. Again: you can ration by $$$ or you can ration by need — Canadian with the most urgent medical needs and most serious problems get treated before everyone else. In the U.S., people with grave illnesses but Not Enough Money suffer by the millions while the elites classes can afford, "ahead of them in line" the most capricious, minor, or cosmetic treatments. But there is a more fundamental issue here, a more fundamental level on which the wait-in-line horror stories are disinformation. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that we had a different country Kanada in which the identical study showed significanly higher mortality rates for those waiting in line. Then even that Kanada would be no argument whatsoever against national health care. For, it would reveal, rather, important problems with *that country’s* health care system, namely needing more hospitals, more doctors, and so on — things the U.S. already has and could certainly afford more of with the fantastic savings in the dozens of billions of dollars *per year* a National Health Plan would mean. In other words these arguments, even on those occasions when a particular charge is true, are nothing but smokescreens to divert attention from the very real benefits of National Health Insurance. (NHI) The Universal Access would be there under NHI; not so in the U.S. today, with 37 million uninsured, with     The percentage of the poor covered by Medicaid dropped from 65 to     37 percent over the decade, and Medicare now pays less than half     of the medical bills of the elderly. with millions more one catastrophe away from financial ruin. As well are all the money the insured pay, as also cited:     In fact, however, most people in the United States don’t really     have full coverage. Overall, American insurance now covers just 74     percent of the costs of doctors’ services, 39 percent of dentists’     services, and 25 percent of prescription drug charges. We pay the     rest out of pocket. The savings in the dozens of billions — enough, from administrative savings *alone*, according to the General Accounting Office, to pay for insuring all the uninsured and (fron administative savings *alone* again) perhaps to eliminate all co-payments — I’ve quoted before; use the GET command (see bottom) on the file name HEALTH INSURANC [sic] So too there would be massive savings under NHI, unlike now. so too would there be justice: Universal Access for *All* Americans, not so under the present "system" from which private insurers, and many doctors and hospitals, unfairly profit from, despite public opinion:     "Should health care be a fundamental right?"     1968, 1975, 1978 polls:         over 75% yes     In a 1988 Harris poll 90 percent of the public responded that     everyone should be entitled to care "as good as a millionaire     could get." Yet, health care in the U.S. is increasingly a     privilege. Also cited in the archived file. The smoke-screens attempt to hide these basics facts from the American public. There is not need to copy verbatim the Canadian system (or the British, or French) — as Larry Agran and others have said, our National Health Plan should be uniquely American. And making sure there are no unnecessary or unfair delays in treatment will be part of designing and implementing an American NHP, and just as the price of Democracy is Eternal Vigilance, so too will there always be responsibility for American citizens — with the power now in their hands rather than the private insurers and hospitals — to make sure there isn’t a shortage of hospitals and other problems which exist, to varying degrees in Canada or elsewhere, problems quite independence of the fundamental issue of health care as a Right, not a "privilege" and to be rationally administers to Americans by Need, not their wealth. Harel     To get a file named FILE NAME from the     archiver (files are two words  separa-     ted by a space), send the 1-line message     GET FILE NAME ACTIV-L     Use GET with the file ACTIV-L ARCHIVE for a listing of     files available with the GET command. emailed the index of archived files. e.g. GET HEALTH INSURANC ACTIV-L

– Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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    "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but     it’s not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance,     you go don’t to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to     go pay.’"    Which, of course, is a lie.  No one can be refused treatment at a hospital in the US.  No one.

I believe that in the US one can’t be refused *emergency* treatment.  PBS did a segment comparing US and CDN medical systems a while back (Walter Cronkite was the narrator). One of the points in the show that is relevant to this discussion was how hard it was for low income women to get pre-natal care in the US. It seems that medicaid fees for this procedure were significantly lower than the fee MDs usually charge. Thus, these women had a difficult to impossible time finding a MD to take them. Coupled with the fact that public hospitals often had no room for further pre-natal care patients and you have a situation where people are indeed not getting the treatment that they require. — Jim Robinson {ubc-cs!van-bc,uunet}!mdivax1!robinson

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that any society with a finite amount of resources must ration(*) — by Need, not by Bank Account Size / Blue Blood-ness, precisely what

And just who is given the power or authority to judge "Need"? This is exactly why government run businesses (charitable or otherwise) don’t work. If Brett’s father was among the 37 million uninsured Americans in the U.S. he would no doubt have been in serious trouble. If Brett’s father had the audacity to be among the millions of poor Americans, e.g. with Medicaid, he would have been in very serious trouble indeed. The HEALTH INSURANC file avialable from the Archiver notes:     Uninsured patients and those on Medicaid were less likely to     receive three common treatment for heart disease than those with     insurance, a study of 37,994 people [found]

Medicaid: This program is supposed to address the poor/elderly health care issue and is failing.  Why do you think a new program will be any different? Also, how many of the uninsured are so by choice?  I know of many people who don’t buy insurance because they believe it is a rip-off. But it also shows that the scare-tactics about waiting lines in Canada are so often distortions if not outright lies. Again: you can ration by $$$ or you can ration by need — Canadian with the most urgent medical needs and most serious problems get treated before everyone else.

Again, who is to judge?  Many people with urgent medical needs are so because of lifelong lifestyle choices.  Do you propose to regulate personal lifestyles to reduce health care costs?  If you make me pay for your expensive medical treatment I’m damn sure going to insist I dictate a change in your lifestyle. In the U.S., people with grave illnesses but Not Enough Money suffer by the millions while the elites classes can afford, "ahead of them in line" the most capricious, minor, or cosmetic treatments.

What exactly *is* an elite class?  How is a member identified?  (I honestly don’t know what this phrase means; it keeps showing up.) Then even that Kanada would be no argument whatsoever against national health care. For, it would reveal, rather, important problems with *that country’s* health care system, namely needing more hospitals, more doctors, and so on — things the U.S. already has and could certainly afford more of with the fantastic savings in the dozens of billions of dollars *per year* a National Health Plan would mean.

Also please explain to me how taking more of my money in taxation equates to a "fantastic savings" to me, personally? so too would there be justice: Universal Access for *All* Americans, not so under the present "system" from which private insurers, and many doctors and hospitals, unfairly profit from, despite public opinion:

Unfairly profit?  So, you think certain groups, like doctors, are not entitled to profit from their abilities and hard work?  What other groups?  Perhaps teachers.     "Should health care be a fundamental right?"     1968, 1975, 1978 polls:         over 75% yes     In a 1988 Harris poll 90 percent of the public responded that     everyone should be entitled to care "as good as a millionaire     could get." Yet, health care in the U.S. is increasingly a     privilege.

There will always be a gap between the cost of the most advanced technology and the general public’s ability to pay in any field.  Perhaps you also think everyone should be entitled to the most powerful supercomputer? Of course in a perfect world every person would have access to the most advanced technology, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. And making sure there are no unnecessary or unfair delays in treatment will be part of designing and implementing an American NHP, and just as the price of Democracy is Eternal Vigilance, so too will there

The price of FREEDOM is eternal vigilance.

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No one can be refused treatment at a hospital in the US.  No one. No one can be refused treatment in the emergency room of a hospital in the US.  This is quite a different matter.

        The actual law states that a hospital must stabilize the person.  If they are not willing to treat uninsured people they can transfer the patient to another hospital.  Most, if not all, public hospitals are required to treat the patients until they are well enough to go home.         So, it certainly is quite a different matter from the image that some are trying to portray:  that millions of people lie bleeding to death in front of hospital doors while evil capitalists keep them out. Emergency room care is far from sufficient, since it only deals with the situation when it has gotten bad instead of dealing with it before it gets bad.  It also doesn’t include the long-term care often needed to recover – it is simply stabilize-and-send-’em-out.  It is often rushed. Need i mention that it is also expensive for the hospital?

        No kidding.  Much more expensive than education and job training. It is not complete health care and was never meant to be.  To get that, you need insurance or money in your pocket.

        I prefer the latter, which enables you to get the former, plus whatever else you may need. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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Bush and the others who do not like the U.S. to have a health care system in line with Canada and the rest of the world do not talk about these facts:                  U.S.A.         Canada Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 Infant Morality 10 per 1000   7 per 1000 Life Expectancy 73 M/80 F      74 M/81 F It is clear why most in Canada do not like to dump the Health care system they now have have, for the so called fine American Health Care system. Bush only likes to talk about a story of jerks in canada (who think they are god’s gift to madkind so they think that they sould get better health care then the rest) who come to the U.S. to get medical care that can wait from money sucking doctors. Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right. — Matthew Zank * Eau Claire, Wisconsin     We are in a free fall. -G. Bush.

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…It is clear why most in Canada do not like to dump the Health care system they now have have, for the so called fine American Health Care system. Bush only likes to talk about a story of jerks in canada (who think they are god’s gift to madkind so they think that they sould get better health care then the rest) who come to the U.S. to get medical care that can wait from money sucking doctors.

A little on the blunt side (but still 100% correct). Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right.

Hear, hear! — David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10           Health care for people, not for profits!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bush and the others who do not like the U.S. to have a health care system in line with Canada and the rest of the world do not talk about these facts:                  U.S.A.         Canada Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 Infant Morality 10 per 1000   7 per 1000 Life Expectancy 73 M/80 F      74 M/81 F It is clear why most in Canada do not like to dump the Health care system they now have have, for the so called fine American Health Care system. Bush only likes to talk about a story of jerks in canada (who think they are god’s gift to madkind so they think that they sould get better health care then the rest) who come to the U.S. to get medical care that can wait from money sucking doctors. Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right.

        Bush is a poor adminstrator.  He’ll never get a successful domestic program off the ground without considerable assistance.  Any health care program he instigated would most likely become a cure that is worse than the disease.         Universal basic/preventive care has the same benefits as universal education.  By providing everyone with that level of health care you reinforce the idea of "preventive maintenance" for the human body.         Almost everyone agrees with that, what the disagreement is about is how to implement such a plan.  Most free market economists gag at the thought of yet another federal bureaucracy.  Most socialist economists gag at the thought of a system without checks and balances.         A solution (for the US, at least) lies somewhere in the middle.  Some sort of centralized umbrella organization to ensure standards of care are maintained, with some form of competition to help keep costs down. Unfortunately, we have yet to see a candidate propose such a compromise.  It is either "big government" or "big business" to the rescue.         I’m curious as to what Andre Marrou’s position is.  Minimal government involvement? Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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} … } Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right. } } Hear, hear!

Health care doesn’t fall out of the sky.  It isn’t just magically here and ready for the taking.  So, the notion of health care being a right implies that someone must be obligated to provide it.  Who are you going to force to give it to you? Further, for something to be a basic human right, it cannot depend on such factors as location.  So suppose you are in an area where you needed health care, but there was nobody around to provide it.  How are you going to get it?  Or, do you expect some doctor or nurse to follow you around no matter where you go, just to fullfil that "right" in case you need it? — David Olson …!att!druwa!dlo "The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money."  Alexis de Tocqueville

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mz                  U.S.A.         Canada mz Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 How do you guys manage it? Over here 100% of people die. —

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   } …    } Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right.    }    } Hear, hear!    Health care doesn’t fall out of the sky.  It isn’t just magically    here and ready for the taking.  So, the notion of health care being    a right implies that someone must be obligated to provide it.  Who    are you going to force to give it to you?    Further, for something to be a basic human right, it cannot depend    on such factors as location.  So suppose you are in an area where    you needed health care, but there was nobody around to provide it.    How are you going to get it?  Or, do you expect some doctor or    nurse to follow you around no matter where you go, just to fullfil    that "right" in case you need it? begin{parody} A justice system established to dispense fair and speedy justice doesn’t just fall out of the sky.  Historically, our notions of fair justice evolved over the centuries in Europe.  The notion of a system for promoting and enforcing justice for all requires a significant infrastructure to provide and maintain it.  Who are you going to force to give it to you? Further, for something to be a basic human right, it cannot depend on such factors as location.  Suppose you are accused of theft while on a Carribean cruise?  The other passengers demand that you be thrown overboard, but you demand a trial and the lawyer of your choice.  How are you going to convince the captain to defer your conviction and punishment until your lawyer can arrive?  Or do you expect to take your lawyer with you wherever you travel, just in case you need to defend yourself. end{parody} — Carnegie Mellon University              Phone:       +1 412 268 2145 5000 Forbes Avenue                      Fax:         +1 412 268 1793 Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890, USA

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Bush and the others who do not like the U.S. to have a health care system in line with Canada and the rest of the world do not talk about these facts:                 U.S.A.         Canada Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 Infant Morality 10 per 1000   7 per 1000 Life Expectancy 73 M/80 F      74 M/81 F It is clear why most in Canada do not like to dump the Health care system they now have have, for the so called fine American Health Care system. Bush only likes to talk about a story of

When I immigrated to Canada in 1967, I was the father of three small children, and I was grateful to discover just how well the health care system here worked. It was difficult, back then, as an American, to accept that I could not afford to provide adequate medical care for my family. Clearly, we have our problems, one of which (in B.C.) is that budget deficits over the past years has put a severe crimp in hospital budgets, the development and growth of cancer clinics, etc. That’s the reason our government often pays Washington medical centres to perform critical surgery – we just don’t have what’s needed to do it here. But the reality is that our system, for the average Canadian, is vastly superior. There is NO way, for instance, that I would even consider living in the States again, given the high cost of care. I suspect you are correct in your assertion that most here wouldn’t even THINK about adopting the American system, for all its high tech medical superiorty. My mom moved from California to B.C. three years ago, and recently returned to California. She did so simply because all of her friends are there. My deep concern is that, at 74 years, any serious illness will completely destroy her lifetime savings and leave her destitute. To her credit, she still intends to spend a minimum of six months a year in Canada to maintain her landed immigrant status. Why? Health care, plain and simple. The real problem in Canada isn’t the system – it’s the perception many have that it’s all paid for out of sales taxes and premiums. The present money crunch in B.C. should have put that one to rest, and helped us understand that universal health care is EXPENSIVE, and that we should be prepared to forego other benefits as citizens to improve health care funding. —       === The Old Frog’s Almanac, Vancouver Island, Canada === Public Access UseNet for Central Vancouver Island via SCO XENIX 2.3.2GT Waffle v1.64: (604) 758-9698 Telebit TB+, (604) 758-6208 USR HST v32bis {ubc-cs,van-bc,mala}!oneb!kmcvay         Free Access to Validated Users

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demon A solution (for the US, at least) lies somewhere in the middle.  Some demon sort of centralized umbrella organization to ensure standards of care demon are maintained, with some form of competition to help keep costs demon down.  Unfortunately, we have yet to see a candidate propose such a demon compromise.  It is either "big government" or "big business" to the demon rescue. Actually, this sounds an awful lot like the health care plan Paul Tsongas advocates. He specifically says he believes it is necessary for competition to exist in order to low cost and good service at the top of the priority list for the competing providers. —   uucp: …!uunet!hcx1!tahorsley               511 Kingbird Circle                                                Delray Beach, FL  33444 |     (Wait, I forgot government tobacco subsidies…)               |

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Bush and the others who do not like the U.S. to have a health care system in line with Canada and the rest of the world do not talk about these facts:                  U.S.A.         Canada Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 Infant Morality 10 per 1000   7 per 1000 Life Expectancy 73 M/80 F      74 M/81 F

What many others keep forgetting to talk about is the difference in population makeup.  The US has a much higher geriatric population than Canada.  Please compare apples to apples. Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right.

Not at the expense of others!

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mz                  U.S.A.         Canada mz Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 How do you guys manage it? Over here 100% of people die.

I would guess it is an annual rate.  Let’s see if one out of 9 US citizens dies each year than the average person should die after 1000/9 or 111 years, yeah! and the Canadians should live 142.9 years!  It seems to me that this figure alone is not too meaningful since it is based on the growth rate of the population.  In a stable population with an average life expectancy of 80 years the rate should be 12.5 per 1000.   Life expectancy is therefore a better indicator (of course Zank did include life expectancy figures). doug foxvog NB for the humor impaired the calcuated life expectancy figures above are not intended to be correct.  You  need not post flames discussing why i am wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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} begin{parody} } A justice system established to dispense fair and speedy justice } doesn’t just fall out of the sky.  Historically, our notions of fair } justice evolved over the centuries in Europe.  The notion of a system } for promoting and enforcing justice for all requires a significant } infrastructure to provide and maintain it.

But we don’t have a system of justice — we only have a system of laws. There is a difference.  Not saying I like it that way; just saying that’s the way it is. } Who are you going to force } to give it to you?

I don’t believe I have the right to force anyone to give it to me.  I do have the right to pay for help, and I even have the right to ask for it, but I do not have the right to stick a gun to a lawyer’s head and demand that he give it to me.  I do not have the right to demand that someone become a lawyer, when he would much rather be a carpenter instead. } Further, for something to be a basic human right, it cannot depend on } such factors as location.

Absolutely! } Suppose you are accused of theft while on a } Carribean cruise?  The other passengers demand that you be thrown } overboard, but you demand a trial and the lawyer of your choice.

If the passengers demand that I be thrown overboard, there isn’t much my lawyer can do about it, even if she was there.  If the passengers are that adamant about it, they will probably throw her overboard with me. } How } are you going to convince the captain to defer your conviction and } punishment until your lawyer can arrive?

Reason with him.  Appeal to his better nature.  Unless, of course, you have a better suggestion. } Or do you expect to take } your lawyer with you wherever you travel, just in case you need to } defend yourself.

No.  I may take along Smith & Wesson though.  I’d probably have better luck using it to defend myself against a mob than a mere lawyer ever could. } end{parody}

– David Olson …!att!druwa!dlo "The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money."  Alexis de Tocqueville

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   …It is clear why most in Canada do not like to dump the Health    care system they now have have, for the so called fine American    Health Care system. Bush only likes to talk about a story of    jerks in canada (who think they are god’s gift to madkind so they    think that they sould get better health care then the rest) who    come to the U.S. to get medical care that can wait from money    sucking doctors.    A little on the blunt side (but still 100% correct). WHOA there, body impolitic!  I’m sure most physicians are too busy to read and post on Usenet, but I have a good friend who recently gave up his practice after about fifteen years of filling out insurance forms, Medicare/aid forms, cover-your-arse forms, and miscellaneous government forms (and seeing a whopping proportion of his marginal income go to malpractice insurance) instead of being able to spend the time increasing his professional competence or directly helping people. Doctors have chronic problems with our health-care system, too, and I’m not at all sure that socialization won’t merely bring these to prominence.    Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right.    Hear, hear! Full agreement!  It’s the method that’s in question, not the goal. —      (Boston and New Hampshire AMC, and Merrimack Valley Paddlers)

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  A little on the blunt side (but still 100% correct). WHOA there, body impolitic!  I’m sure most physicians are too busy to

Yeah, the 100% was an exaggeration, 88% is more like it….  I probably shouldn’t have written that. read and post on Usenet, but I have a good friend who recently gave up his practice after about fifteen years of filling out insurance forms, Medicare/aid forms, cover-your-arse forms, and miscellaneous government forms (and seeing a whopping proportion of his marginal income go to malpractice insurance) instead of being able to spend the time increasing his professional competence or directly helping people. Doctors have chronic problems with our health-care system, too, and I’m not at all sure that socialization won’t merely bring these to prominence.

This has been hashed and rehashed on the net, but yes, any realistic health care proposal is going to have to deal with these costs. Suffice it to say that in Canada doctors have to cope with much LESS paperwork and forms than they do in the US.  And the number of forms is fewer as well (which helps staff fill them out faster). Then there’s the problem of med. school costs… newly-practicing doctors are pretty much forced to engage in "money-sucking" because they have creditors knocking at the door. — David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10 Disclaimer: UW doesn’t say so.

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mz                  U.S.A.         Canada mz Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 How do you guys manage it? Over here 100% of people die.

        People don’t die, they just get colds. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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                U.S.A.         Canada Death Rate    9 per 1000      7 per 1000 Infant Morality 10 per 1000   7 per 1000 Life Expectancy 73 M/80 F      74 M/81 F

These statistics aren’t that conclusive. The variance is hardly anything to get excited about – especially since this so-called "excellent social health care system" is free to everyone, one would think that the stats would be higher. Furthermore, there are many socioeconomical differences between Canada and the US which could account for the slight variance. Bottom line is that Health Care sould be a basic human right.

Why? Should having a television and a phone be a "basic human right" too? Where do you draw the line between what is a "basic human right" and what is something that you should strive to achieve, instead of being handed on a silver platter by the government? MD — —  Michael P. Deignan                      / —    UUCP: …!uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd  /    I hate everyone. — Telebit: +1 401 455 0347              /

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excited about – especially since this so-called "excellent social health care system" is free to everyone, one would think that the stats would be higher.

I presume (sorry I came to this exchange a bit late) you mean to say that Canadian health care is free to everyone.  It insn’t.  My home province of Ontario has basically free health insurance, paid in fact by employers somehow the coverage is for all Ontario citizens regardless of employment status.  But in other provinces the state just provides an income scaled health insurance plan.  Were I not a declared permentant resident of Ontario I would have to shell out for Brittish Columbia Health Insurance payments during my two years here. The Canadian system isn’t perfect, it could be improved upon easily, but I doubt it will.  The tories are in parliament now and they would like us to have a more American system. (I think they could use some medicine). Sorry for the typos. -P. — Pete Hurd: Behavioural Ecology Research Group, Dept. Biol. Sci. Not quviannikumut & not quinuituq, but stuck here with a computer. "Study nature, not books!" – Louis Agassiz.

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