Question:

SUE ME MR. KERRY – PLEASE!

Question:

Does anyone know what’s involved in this? If I order some big honkin’ tool from a mail-order shop, I gotta pay a lot of shipping. If I buy it locally, I gotta pay a lot of sales tax. However, if my out-of-state sister ordered a machine from the tool store across town from me and had it shipped via "Little Brother Freight"… well… there wouldn’t be any tax involved and the shipping would be cheap, too… especially if the machine fell off the truck in front of my house. I’m sure my sister wouldn’t mind. Of course, in order to be kosher with this, the tool store can’t just let anybody ship it. They’ve got to stick with bona fide shipping companies, no? So, how do *I* become bona fide? – Joe

Response:

Of course, in order to be kosher with this, the tool store can’t just let anybody ship it. They’ve got to stick with bona fide shipping companies, no? So, how do *I* become bona fide? – Joe

With the paperwork, fees, DOT certification, chance of going to jail, etc… pay the sales tax. — Jack Novak Buffalo, NY – USA

Response:

Take a look at Amazon.com.  I purchased a Delta Unisaw and they paid the freight and I escaped the local sales tax.  I also didn’t have to lift the saw in and out of my truck.  It was delivered into the shop. David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know what’s involved in this? If I order some big honkin’ tool from a mail-order shop, I gotta pay a lot of shipping. If I buy it locally, I gotta pay a lot of sales tax. However, if my out-of-state sister ordered a machine from the tool store across town from me and had it shipped via "Little Brother Freight"… well… there wouldn’t be any tax involved and the shipping would be cheap, too… especially if the machine fell off the truck in front of my house. I’m sure my sister wouldn’t mind. Of course, in order to be kosher with this, the tool store can’t just let anybody ship it. They’ve got to stick with bona fide shipping companies, no? So, how do *I* become bona fide? – Joe

Response:

Something to consider,  simply because of the headaches involved in collection, many states do not require a reseller to collect sales tax on out of state sales.  Would it not still be considered an out of state sale if your sister ordered the machine from out of state, had the bill sent out of state to her, paid the bill from out of state, and you pick it up to deliver it?  Normally the stipulation is that the customer does not take delivery of the goods in the same state that the goods are sold, which she would not be doing.  Then she sells the machine to you for her cost.

Response:

Take a look at Amazon.com.  I purchased a Delta Unisaw and they paid the freight and I escaped the local sales tax.  I also didn’t have to lift the saw in and out of my truck.  It was delivered into the shop. David

I’ll bet if you went to whoever collects your sales tax for the area and showed them how you avoided the sales tax, they would happily hand you a form to fill out so you could pay the state use tax, which, most likely would be the same as the sales tax.  Technically, it’s probably your legal obligation to do so.  It’s also nearly totally unenforceable.

Response:

Not to mention a moral obligation to pay your fair share… "for the children."

Take a look at Amazon.com.  I purchased a Delta Unisaw and they paid the freight and I escaped the local sales tax.  I also didn’t have to lift the saw in and out of my truck.  It was delivered into the shop.

  Technically, it’s probably your legal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – obligation to do so.  It’s also nearly totally unenforceable.

Response:

Something to consider,  simply because of the headaches involved in collection, many states do not require a reseller to collect sales tax on out of state sales.  Would it not still be considered an out of state sale if your sister ordered the machine from out of state, had the bill sent out of state to her, paid the bill from out of state, and you pick it up to deliver it?

I think most state legislatures have cottoned onto this trick. For example, suppose I get a money order for the price of the tool (without shipping and without tax), put it in an envelope, address it to the store and put my sister’s return address on it and then hand-deliver the letter to the store. They open it and then I say "Oh, by the way, I’m headed up that way right after I leave here…. why don’t I just deliver it for ya?". Something like this (were it allowed) would be so easy to do that (again, were it allowed) word of it would spread like wildfire and people would be doing it all the time…. costing the state millions, certainly. In fact, I’ve even proposed something like this to a few retailers a few times. I’ve said "Hey, why don’t you put down my out-of-state address, (wink), and then just *say* that you shipped it there?". They all just kinda said that it can’t be done. I figure that, either they were worried that I was some state tax dude trying to entrap them, or (more likely) the state requires them to have some proof that it was shipped out of state via a "real" shipping company. If I’m wrong, I’d be pleasantly surprised, though. Of course, here in California, food isn’t taxable. Maybe I can get the dude at the hardware store to ring up that Delta bandsaw as a 4-ton bag of potato chips…. – Joe

Response:

Now that’s comedy.  LOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not to mention a moral obligation to pay your fair share… "for the children."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something to consider,  simply because of the headaches involved in collection, many states do not require a reseller to collect sales tax on out of state sales.  Would it not still be considered an out of state sale if your sister ordered the machine from out of state, had the bill sent out of state to her, paid the bill from out of state, and you pick it up to deliver it? I think most state legislatures have cottoned onto this trick. For example, suppose I get a money order for the price of the tool (without shipping and without tax), put it in an envelope, address it to the store and put my sister’s return address on it and then hand-deliver the letter to the store. They open it and then I say "Oh, by the way, I’m headed up that way right after I leave here…. why don’t I just deliver it for ya?". Something like this (were it allowed) would be so easy to do that (again, were it allowed) word of it would spread like wildfire and people would be doing it all the time…. costing the state millions, certainly. In fact, I’ve even proposed something like this to a few retailers a few times. I’ve said "Hey, why don’t you put down my out-of-state address, (wink), and then just *say* that you shipped it there?". They all just kinda said that it can’t be done. I figure that, either they were worried that I was some state tax dude trying to entrap them, or (more likely) the state requires them to have some proof that it was shipped out of state via a "real" shipping company. If I’m wrong, I’d be pleasantly surprised, though. Of course, here in California, food isn’t taxable. Maybe I can get the dude at the hardware store to ring up that Delta bandsaw as a 4-ton bag of potato chips…. – Joe

An 8000 lb bandsaw?  Must be the big one…  ;-^

Response:

The CEO Of TYCO is facing charges in New York for evading sales taxes on millions of dollars of artwork.  He took the art home while the dealer shipped empty boxes to out of state addresses to create a paper trail.

What I don’t get is… how the hell did they *catch* him? If he had the paper trail, how in the world can they disprove it? – Joe

Response:

All it takes is getting somebody unhappy with either him or the people he bought from to report how it happened.  A guy told me he knew of four places that got hit for illegal copies of software on computers.  Let’s not start that threat again.  Point is simply this — in three cases disgruntled former employees turned them in.  In the fourth case, a disgruntled current employee turned them in. It isn’t hard to find some disgruntled employees in any business.  On the other hand, I’ve noticed a lot of people who will skate over the edge on legal stuff also tend to treat employees like dirt.   What surprises me is that more don’t turn on their employer. The trick is to know you’re somebody without thinking you’re somebody. Dennis to Joey (Hank Ketcham)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The CEO Of TYCO is facing charges in New York for evading sales taxes on millions of dollars of artwork.  He took the art home while the dealer shipped empty boxes to out of state addresses to create a paper trail. What I don’t get is… how the hell did they *catch* him? If he had the paper trail, how in the world can they disprove it? – Joe

Response:

The wave of the future. Go to college and get a degree in "Creative Accounting".

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Question:

Hi, I’m switching from Quickbooks 6 to Simply Accounting 7, and I can’t see that there’s any way to import my QB data.  If anyone has figured Ideas would be greatly appreciated. — Jeff. Before you buy.

Response:

Try this group for some answers to that question. http://www.eGroups.com/list/simply-accounting Regards, D Spence – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m switching from Quickbooks 6 to Simply Accounting 7, and I can’t see that there’s any way to import my QB data.  If anyone has figured Ideas would be greatly appreciated. — Jeff. Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Hi Group: A manufacturing company makes custom products for various customers. During the last month of their fiscal year, they completed an significant order for a customer who asked the company "not" to ship the goods until they had an opportunity to inspect a few units. The company shipped the customer a few units in that month and the customer advised the company that they wanted to make some "changes" to the product.  The company made the changes to the product during the first month of the new fiscal year. Can the company reports as a sale the products that were made and held for the customer before the customer requested the changes?  Or is the sale reported in the new fiscal year along with the additional sales resulting from the revision to the sales order? Does the original product (before the customer changes) meet the criteria for reporting a sale in the earlier fiscal year? If it does or doesn’t, please explain what the sales criteria is (that is, what specific tests have to be met to record a sale)? One final point: the company does not use the percentage of completion method of accounting for books or tax. I look forward to reading your comments on this matter. Regards, Al Gershen Grants Pass, Oregon, USA and thru ICQ # 12342782

Response:

Somewhere in the sales contract for this order should be a condition, that the good can not be shipped until the customer approves the order. If this the case you can not ship the completed order until this condition is met. Therefore no sale.  Sales are normally recognized based on the transfer of title (shipping triggers the transfer of title). The total cost of the order represents "inventory" at year-end, either work in progress or finished goods, depending on what modifications need to be done in the next fiscal year, and the "additional" cost of these changes. Percentage of completion only applies to long-term contract. Additional questions please post. Francis P. Caliva Jr., CPA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Group: A manufacturing company makes custom products for various customers. During the last month of their fiscal year, they completed an significant order for a customer who asked the company "not" to ship the goods until they had an opportunity to inspect a few units. The company shipped the customer a few units in that month and the customer advised the company that they wanted to make some "changes" to the product.  The company made the changes to the product during the first month of the new fiscal year. Can the company reports as a sale the products that were made and held for the customer before the customer requested the changes?  Or is the sale reported in the new fiscal year along with the additional sales resulting from the revision to the sales order? Does the original product (before the customer changes) meet the criteria for reporting a sale in the earlier fiscal year? If it does or doesn’t, please explain what the sales criteria is (that is, what specific tests have to be met to record a sale)? One final point: the company does not use the percentage of completion method of accounting for books or tax. I look forward to reading your comments on this matter. Regards, Al Gershen Grants Pass, Oregon, USA and thru ICQ # 12342782

Response:

In my opinion – It’s a question that calls for the experienced professional opinion of a licensed public accountant in possession of all relevant facts of the specific situation. Is this a hypothetical question, or are you in a dispute with your accountant?

btv.net… Hi Group: A manufacturing company makes custom products

for various customers. During the last month of their fiscal year, they completed an significant order for a customer who asked the

company "not" to ship the goods until they had an opportunity to inspect a few units. The company shipped the customer a few units in that month and the customer advised the company that they wanted to

make some "changes" to the product.  The company made the changes to

the product during the first month of the new fiscal year. Can the company reports as a sale the products

that were made and held for the customer before the customer requested

the changes?  Or is the sale reported in the new fiscal year along with

the additional sales resulting from the revision to the sales order? Does the original product (before the customer changes) meet the criteria for reporting a sale in the earlier fiscal year? If it does or doesn’t, please explain what the

sales criteria is (that is, what specific tests have to be met to record a sale)? One final point: the company does not use the

percentage of completion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – method of accounting for books or tax. I look forward to reading your comments on this matter. Regards, Al Gershen Grants Pass, Oregon, USA and thru ICQ # 12342782

Response:

In this instance, the company completed the product per the original sales contract. The goods were done and being stored by the company at the request of the customer.  In essence, title of the goods belonged to the customer who asked the company to retain the goods until they had a chance to review them.

I think that this is what you need to look at. At what point did title pass to the customer? Were the goods inspected by the customer in the first fiscal year? What language does the original contract have? — Brad Crockett Duncan BC Canada                           -o) members.home.net/canbooks

Response:

Hi Francis P. Caliva Jr., CPA: Thank you for your reply to my question. In this instance, the company completed the product per the original sales contract. The goods were done and being stored by the company at the request of the customer.  In essence, title of the goods belonged to the customer who asked the company to retain the goods until they had a chance to review them. When the customer completed its review, it requested that the company make some changes to the product.  The company did these changes in the next fiscal year and the goods were shipped out to the customer, again after the customer reviewed them. The company believes that a valid sale of the original unchanged goods occurred in the prior fiscal year and it wants to record that sale.  It will record a subsequent sale relating to the change order in the following fiscal year. I wish I had access to a Montgomery’s "Auditing" book because it shows the criteria for recording a sale.  There are also accounting standards issued by the FASB & AICPA (in effect before the FASB) that probably discuss the criteria for recording a sale under different circumstances. I would like to present the company with the pros and cons of treating the original order as a sale in the previous fiscal year. Can you please follow-up again on your comments and let me know if you have reconsidered your position in light of the additional information I have provided above. I look forward to your following Usenet posting. Regards, Al Gershen Grants Pass, Oregon, USA and thru ICQ # 12342782 ——Your 1/27/00 Posting Reply to my Question—— Group: alt.accounting (treyboy) Re: Sales Reporting Cut-off Question   Somewhere in the sales contract for this order should be a condition, that the good can not be shipped until the customer approves the order. If this the case you can not ship the completed order until this condition is met. Therefore no sale. Sales are normally recognized based on the transfer of title (shipping triggers the transfer of title). The total cost of the order represents "inventory" at year-end, either work in progress or finished goods, depending on what modifications need to be done in the next fiscal year, and the "additional" cost of these changes. Percentage of completion only applies to long-term contract. Additional questions please post. Francis P. Caliva Jr., CPA Regards, Al Gershen Grants Pass, Oregon, USA and thru ICQ # 12342782

Response:

Question:

Todd, client /server is far from dead.   It seems that you are equating SQL to fat clients? We came full circle and we will go again.  As soon as everything runs great on thin client(i.e. the mainframe from 20 years ago) someone will start touting the faster thick client.   The future is client/server tools where anything can run anywhere.  That way the system can be optimized to run local or remote. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carl, this is an important debate and it’s important not to go around in circles like so many exchanges on usenet, wasting our time. There is a fundamental change taking place in the Windows software market.  Reliability problems are a very, very expensive problem for all businesses large and small.  These problems are caused by  - user error or abuse of the machine,  - network-related problems often coupled with NIC driver problems  - wide variety of low-quality hardware that just isn’t up to spec,     and should have never been sold to the public, causing the     occasional bit to be lost  - errors and problems in firmware, such as motherboard BIOSs  - errors in motherboard design  - bugs in the Microsoft Windows platform  - bugs in the Accounting software application including all its     data handling layers etc.  - DLL conflicts caused by Microsoft’s design which calls for putting     DLL components of completely unrelated software in the same     directory (the main binaries directory of the OS, making it evn     worse)  - bad design choices in the Microsoft Windows platform in management     of programs in memory, allowing them to corrupt other processes  - continual upgrades and changes to the Microsoft Windows platform     at intervals which are too short for Accountnig software vendors     to publish upgrades to their software to be compatible with Mickey’s     newest design changes… which Mickey is doing for Mickey’s own     profit, let’s not forget that.  And often to support *applications*     which Mickey is selling to compete directly with independent     application vendors. I could wear out my fingers writing all this and it makes me extremely frustrated to think of it all, quite frankly, and  particularly to have to explain it to vendors of software built on Microsoft platforms. The software industry is totally aware of these and has been working overtime making software more like the browser– i.e. the whole thing doesn’t destroy itself and corrupt the files if the network connection is broken, or if the connection between software components in memory is broken.  Right?  Aren’t you seeing that too?  10 years ago you opened an application on a Novell LAN and opened up fifty pointers to blocks on disk.  If anything went wrong the file was hosed.  Today you open up DCOM connections to SQL server but you don’t have anny opportunity to corrupt the database directly. The Idea of an application talking directly to another applicationover a LAN with DCOM is what is going out of style.  Even in the unix environment the same thing has happened. Running X windows over the internet is NOT a realistic businss solution.  Especially since it can be done so much better with HTTP. — It’s all history as far as I’m concerned.  The world’s accounting will move to hosts on the internet for many reasons, that have little to do with our theological discussion about RDBMSs.  The main reason is that it has grown increasingly difficult and expensive to maintain accounting appplications on drive C: or even on an expensive, high quality fileserver or applicaion server on a LAN. As internet speeds go from 56K V90, to 256K DSL, to megabit and ethernet speeds, don’t you think it’s rather obvious that the accounting software will be maintained more cheaply in a shared host someplace? As the complexity and interconnectedness of internet commerce grows in coming years, don’t you think the developers of packaged software will be unable to keep up with the potentials?  The pattern I see is that the innovation curve has flipped.  Before the quick brown fox was on the desktop, jumping over the lazy dogs of unix and mainframe software.  Now, the potentials of B2B commerce are being achieved only by megabuck Oracle financials, Great Plains, and related vertical applications.  Small businesses who want to send invoices electroncally, pay bills electronically, POs and ASNs online, etc and have an integrated view of their cyber/meatspace storefronts can get that by buying $100,000 systems and hiring $100,000 engineers—or signing up for BOL. Which do you think they will do? There are cruel advantages to the internet hosts.  They can connect with 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 credit card providers.  Once it’s working the Web GL operator can use those connections for 100 user, or 1000, or 1000000 users. Your idea of installing Microsoft SQL server into small business locations, coupled with an extensive application for accounting and managing the business, represents a decision by those businesses that they will carry on Ecommerce thru remote proxy (web host providers) and pay a lot of money for contiual integration at the fronttier between those systems. It dooms them to participating with the internet economy only by messaging, basically.  Heres why:  To operate a real internet site that involves money (and it surely must), the small business must solve the security problem, alone.  That is really the killer. Far wiser to understand the offerings of those web hosting companies who evolve up to the level that they provide the whole accounting solution (integrated inventory, payables, receivables, project, costing, time/billing or whatever your industry needs)   Just as we finally gave up fixing our cars and admitted it is far more practical and cheaper to either pay the garage to fix them or just sell the damned thing, and buy a new one. I see client-server systems, specifically SQL-based client-server systems, as the result of decades of engineering and experimention. The point is that data will be stored in a file format somewhere, and there must be standardized methods to access the data.  Structured Query Language started strong and grew stronger as it migrated from mainframes to minicomputers to PCs.  It has survived the cut everytime, for decades. Thin clients?  The thinnest client was the dumb terminal.  Clients may get thinner, but hard disks, RAM, and processing power are so inexpensive that a portion of the storage and processing burden should reside on the individual workstation, reducing the burden on the server and the communication links. SQL system prices are dropping; Microsoft claims to have demonstrated similar performance to Oracle for 1/16th the cost.   I refer to their press release: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1999/03-16sql.htm Respectfully, – Carl Dick I am wondering if there is Accounting Software that can act as a front end while SQL is used as it’s backend.  Any suggestions? Client Server is dead.  It will cost you far more than its worth.  You’re coming at the tail end of a mature technology that never got cheap.  It just Look for something thin. Todd

Response:

Best Books for SQL Server with Best Books Analyzer to determine business profitability. Designed for users of QuickBooks who want more and to move up. Built on a SQL Server back-end. One price includes unlimited licensing at a fraction of the cost of the competitors. So there is never again a worry about adding users, they’re covered! Support included, but not needed. If you have to call support, then we did something wrong. Only $575 unlimited users. (requires SQL Server 6.5) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

all the guy wanted was a recommendation or two on scaleable accounting packages that he could integrate into his existing system setup without two much grief, and this thread has become a debate on the theoretical evolution of internet and accounting software. Lets get back to the initial question, guys. I was in public for 5 years selling and maintaing accounting packages ranging from One Write Plus and Quickbooks to Solomon IV, MAS 90 and Great Plains. Now I am in industry and have been for several years and have actually been a user of several packages. While not perfect (and no package is, regardless what the reseller says), Solomon does have a microsoft sql version of their program that will integrate and allow the use of your access queries. I dont have the vendor information handy, but I am sure you can locate the web site easy enough. Regards, Matt Bunin, CPA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -all the guy wanted was a recommendation or two on scaleable accounting packages that he could integrate into his existing system setup without two much grief, and this thread has become a debate on the theoretical evolution of internet and accounting software. Lets get back to the initial question, guys. I was in public for 5 years selling and maintaing accounting packages ranging from One Write Plus and Quickbooks to Solomon IV, MAS 90 and Great Plains. Now I am in industry and have been for several years and have actually been a user of several packages. While not perfect (and no package is, regardless what the reseller says), Solomon does have a microsoft sql version of their program that will integrate and allow the use of your access queries. I dont have the vendor information handy, but I am sure you can locate the web site easy enough. Regards, Matt Bunin, CPA

Good points Matt.   Good for you.  Why don’t you just keep up the good work, and maintain things that actually work for people, and get us down the road another year until the web ledgers get a bit more mature. Just a reminder, don’t expect a long life from the stuff. Keep it simple and practical. TOdd

Response:

Try digita.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are currently in the process of merging our MIS together in order to maintain accurate data.  However, QuickbooksPro (our current accounting software) does not support other data sources except it’s own.  Our main company database is a SQL backend with a customized Access front end. I am wondering if there is Accounting Software that can act as a front end while SQL is used as it’s backend.  Any suggestions? — Jack H. Phan IT Director Handyman Online

Response:

And people only think of themselves. For example nobody would look at the following unless they think of instant reward before efforts.I would like prrove on the contrary, that is receive comments from may people… At your browser type  learnjobsgroup.on.ca and comment innovation: An Innovative Lifelong Learning Methodology

Question:

Doesn’t anybody care about this stuff?

Todd, Speaking strictly for myself – I don’t know enough about the underlying technology to debate this issue on the terms that it is being presented. I would participate in a less technical discussion. Do you think this isn’t really going to happen?

That is a very good question.  The logical place for web accounting to start and flourish would be with firms that have multiple locations and central accounting.  I would be interested to know what such firms are doing. I view some redundancy as functionally necessary, and even desirable. Jim Hudspeth, CPA Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I was just reflecting today on the fact that all accounting is really quadruple entry.  You have double entry books, and one side of each entry is really a snapshot of one side of the other guy’s books.  For example, your receivable is equal to his payable. In fact, the whole invoice in your books is a purchase in his books. As we enter the age of web accounting, our books will increasingly equal the books of the other guy automatically (and our cash will equal the bank) since every transaction will be executed thru the net.  You will have to work hard, to make things not equal. I wonder how long it will take before the transaction table moves out to powerful hosts on the internet, and each user just has a single entry books.  A set of indexes really. When you evaluate your web accounting provider, you must avoid re-creating the problem of quadruple-entry accounting, OK?  Where everybody has a totally redundant copy of everybody else’s credits stored in our debits. Whenever you have data duplication, you always have bad results: Corrections are posted only to one side not the other, efforts are invested in one then the other, reconciliation always requires work, neither is ever correct, etc. etc. just like todays’ standalone! Let’s go direct to integrated global-entry, where each transaction is stored EXACTLY ONE PLACE, on a trusted third party host, and both parties have certain permissions to view it.   Both parties’ accounting systems will consist mostly of a set of foreign keys into the transaction base. I wish you all would consider the benefits of intercompany journal bus architecture.    http://www.GLDialtone.com/journalbus.htm  http://www.GLDialtone.com/hypercub.htm  http://www.GLDialtone.com/nai.htm Doesn’t anybody care about this stuff?   Do you think this isn’t really going to happen? * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML Accounting Web ledger ASP netledger, GL Dialtone, whatever it takes.

Response:

Question:

I work with a non-profit organization in Houston that recently purchased an accounting software package called MIP Non-Profit Series. Implementing it has been a nightmare and MIP (based in Austin) has not been helpful at all even though the product was quite expensive and we also bought a maintenance contract.  They only refer us to consultants who seem more interested in making MIP look good than in helping us. We are trying to find other organizations that use this product so we can either learn from them how to make it work or whether it does work.  If anyone can refer us to other MIP users, please post a message at soc.nonprofit.org. Thank you very much for any help you can give. Chris Wycliff

Response:

Chris I am currently on an independent temp assignment at a non-profit that is in the midst of converting to MIP also. Care to trade war stories? Wendy Klager

Response:

How about an Attorney?  It’s amazing how a few letters can get you to the top of the pile. I had similar problems with our SW vendor and it took a few emails to the president to get some action. — __Stephen Russell Memphis VFP User Group Visual FoxPro because life is too short to code in C++

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I work with a non-profit organization in Houston that recently purchased an accounting software package called MIP Non-Profit Series. Implementing it has been a nightmare and MIP (based in Austin) has not been helpful at all even though the product was quite expensive and we also bought a maintenance contract.  They only refer us to consultants who seem more interested in making MIP look good than in helping us. We are trying to find other organizations that use this product so we can either learn from them how to make it work or whether it does work.  If anyone can refer us to other MIP users, please post a message at soc.nonprofit.org. Thank you very much for any help you can give. Chris Wycliff

Response:

Question:

Well, things have been INSANE around my work and home lately, so I’ve not been posting much or in the chat — plus, up until like Monday, I was eating probably 40 carbs a day, so at least I maintained, I guess. Since Monday, 2 more pounds down.  I seem to lose pretty good if I stick to it — usually 3 to 4 pounds every 2 weeks.   We are moving in early December (to where?  WE DON’T KNOW — icck! Either Austin, Houston, Dallas or Memphis).  God, I hate Texas — I’m hoping for Memphis — no offense to Texans, I just don’t like any of those cities much).  In fact, I WANT to stay in Honolulu — fat chance.  Besides, I’m tired and in a very bad mood, so I HATE everything right now! The person we got to replace me at work didn’t work out, so we let her go as of this morning, so now I gotta start over with someone else and only THREE weeks before I leave the company.  I do EVERYTHING in the office — accounting, computer tech, taxes, secretarial, receptionist, you name it, so it’s NOT an easy training thing. What do I want?  I want a BIG bowl of sphgetti and a big old hunk of sourdough bread and to wallow in a really good movie.  But NO, I gotta clean up so we can show the apartment to people.  Why me?   It it weren’t for protein bars, I think I’d own stock in Hershey’s these days.  I know I know, the bars aren’t supposed to be used before maintenance, but when I watch it, it doesn’t affect me.  Beside, it’s either that or that bag of kisses that is calling my name……. Pure Protein, here I come — gotta love that 20% off on the first Tuesday of the month that GNC does!  I guess I’m lucky like that.  Nutrasweet has no affect on me either.  I LOVE that new Pepsi One stuff.  Talk about a life saver this week! I’m sticking in there and haven’t eaten that spegehetti (oh hell, I can’t spell it — whatever, noodles covered in tomatoey sauce), in fact, I threw out whatever tomatoes and pasta I had in the house so I could completely avoid it.  Hahaha…. there’s an Italian restaurant by the mall, I even drove around the long way to the mall so I didn’t even have to drive by it.  I’m either really determined or completely nuts.  (Both?) Lately I’ve been living off of chicken salad and tuna salad on lettuece and Wasa crackers.  And LOTS of turkey bacon.  I can’t seem to get enough of that stuff. Oh well, I feel better after banging on the keys for a while — when you are really sad/mad/pissy do you "type hard" too?  LOL.  I swear, I do that.  Oh well, at least I didn’t break a nail, then I’d be pissed for real!  Thanks for listening! Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!

Response:

Hi Candie,     Did someone say you aren’t supposed to use the bars before maintenance?  I guess I hadn’t heard that rule!  Oops:)     I just discovered the Atkins chocolate coconut bars and I am a convert! (from the Pure Protein PB bars- they’re great but with 9 grams of carbs and 280 calories, I always feel guilty eating them) The new Atkins bars have only 2-just 2- grams per bar.     Anyway, I would like to know about this maintenance question when you have a moment- or anyone else too! Victoria 192-154-150 lc this time since 7-8-98 76 pounds gone since 2-96!

Response:

   Did someone say you aren’t supposed to use the bars before maintenance?  I guess I hadn’t heard that rule!  Oops:)    Anyway, I would like to know about this maintenance question when you have a moment- or anyone else too!

I’m not really sure, but from what I can gather, it has do with the nuts in some of them as well as the artifical sweetners.  Maybe someone else can enlighten us    I just discovered the Atkins chocolate coconut bars and I am a convert! (from the Pure Protein PB bars- they’re great but with 9 grams of carbs and 280 calories, I always feel guilty eating them) The new Atkins bars have only 2-just 2- grams per bar.

The only Atkins bar I can even stand are the Brownie ones, but they aren’t that great.  I get a major headache from something that Atkins uses — nutrasweet doesn’t bother me and I have no trouble with the Chocolate Deluxe Pure Protein bars.  I like the PB ones, but just not as good to me.  Plus I don’t care for Soy Protein, but I actually really like whey protein. I guess with everything, your mileage may (and does!) vary! At least I feel better than I did when I first wrote this.  I was VERY bitchy.  I just sat down and felt utterly sorry for myself for 15 minutes and then got up and got on with it. Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!

Response:

I don’t think there is any "rule" about protein bars. They are like everything else, that is YMMV. If they fit in your carb allowance and don’t impede your progess then go for them. If not then perhaps you are better off without them. — Debbie Cusick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Candie,    Did someone say you aren’t supposed to use the bars before maintenance? I guess I hadn’t heard that rule!  Oops:)

Response:

hang on candie! THANKS FOR VOTING!       NOW CENSURE, AND MOVE ON!       http://www.moveon.org           Low carb? Low calorie? Low fat? Low glycemic?     50yr/female/5′10"/wearing size 14 jeans!       I am learning HOW to eat, WHAT to eat, and WHY I eat!       http://www.winternet.com/~terrym/sobriety.html       Read and Post, everyday!       Rosie       – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, things have been INSANE around my work and home lately, so I’ve not been posting much or in the chat — plus, up until like Monday, I was eating probably 40 carbs a day, so at least I maintained, I guess. Since Monday, 2 more pounds down.  I seem to lose pretty good if I stick to it — usually 3 to 4 pounds every 2 weeks.   We are moving in early December (to where?  WE DON’T KNOW — icck! Either Austin, Houston, Dallas or Memphis).  God, I hate Texas — I’m hoping for Memphis — no offense to Texans, I just don’t like any of those cities much).  In fact, I WANT to stay in Honolulu — fat chance.  Besides, I’m tired and in a very bad mood, so I HATE everything right now! The person we got to replace me at work didn’t work out, so we let her go as of this morning, so now I gotta start over with someone else and only THREE weeks before I leave the company.  I do EVERYTHING in the office — accounting, computer tech, taxes, secretarial, receptionist, you name it, so it’s NOT an easy training thing. What do I want?  I want a BIG bowl of sphgetti and a big old hunk of sourdough bread and to wallow in a really good movie.  But NO, I gotta clean up so we can show the apartment to people.  Why me?   It it weren’t for protein bars, I think I’d own stock in Hershey’s these days.  I know I know, the bars aren’t supposed to be used before maintenance, but when I watch it, it doesn’t affect me.  Beside, it’s either that or that bag of kisses that is calling my name……. Pure Protein, here I come — gotta love that 20% off on the first Tuesday of the month that GNC does!  I guess I’m lucky like that.  Nutrasweet has no affect on me either.  I LOVE that new Pepsi One stuff.  Talk about a life saver this week! I’m sticking in there and haven’t eaten that spegehetti (oh hell, I can’t spell it — whatever, noodles covered in tomatoey sauce), in fact, I threw out whatever tomatoes and pasta I had in the house so I could completely avoid it.  Hahaha…. there’s an Italian restaurant by the mall, I even drove around the long way to the mall so I didn’t even have to drive by it.  I’m either really determined or completely nuts.  (Both?) Lately I’ve been living off of chicken salad and tuna salad on lettuece and Wasa crackers.  And LOTS of turkey bacon.  I can’t seem to get enough of that stuff. Oh well, I feel better after banging on the keys for a while — when you are really sad/mad/pissy do you "type hard" too?  LOL.  I swear, I do that.  Oh well, at least I didn’t break a nail, then I’d be pissed for real!  Thanks for listening! Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!

Response:

Well, things have been INSANE around my work and home lately, so I’ve not been posting much or in the chat — plus, up until like Monday, I was eating probably 40 carbs a day, so at least I maintained, I guess. Since Monday, 2 more pounds down.  I seem to lose pretty good if I stick to it — usually 3 to 4 pounds every 2 weeks.

You have lost 20 pounds though!  That’s nothing to sneeze at!  I will be really happy to see the 20 pound mark come and go! We are moving in early December (to where?  WE DON’T KNOW — icck! Either Austin, Houston, Dallas or Memphis).  God, I hate Texas — I’m hoping for Memphis — no offense to Texans, I just don’t like any of those cities much).  In fact, I WANT to stay in Honolulu — fat chance.  Besides, I’m tired and in a very bad mood, so I HATE everything right now!

I know how that goes… I just got done moving too.  (However, just from Upper to Lower Michigan.)  But that is a big deal to move to (or from) Hawaii.. I have two friends who just moved to Maui in the summer.  They love it there, but it was a big pain in the ass to get there.  And I know how it feels to hate everything too.  I went through a lot of that this year, and still am going through that.  It seems like life is still pretty unsettled, but it at least is more settled than it was when I was at the stage of moving that you are at. The person we got to replace me at work didn’t work out, so we let her go as of this morning, so now I gotta start over with someone else and only THREE weeks before I leave the company.  I do EVERYTHING in the office — accounting, computer tech, taxes, secretarial, receptionist, you name it, so it’s NOT an easy training thing.

Now THAT is a pain… What do I want?  I want a BIG bowl of sphgetti and a big old hunk of sourdough bread and to wallow in a really good movie.  But NO, I gotta clean up so we can show the apartment to people.  Why me?

Me too, and a lot of the rest of us… we have all been there!  Sometimes it seems like it’s never gonna end, but eventually it gets straightened out.  I wound up stopping low-carbing when I was moving and the damage was minimal, but I really think that is a huge ymmv thing.  There are many days when I could eat Little Debbie Swiss cake rolls all day, breakfast, lunch and dinner. It it weren’t for protein bars, I think I’d own stock in Hershey’s these days.  I know I know, the bars aren’t supposed to be used before maintenance, but when I watch it, it doesn’t affect me.  Beside, it’s either that or that bag of kisses that is calling my name……. Pure Protein, here I come — gotta love that 20% off on the first Tuesday of the month that GNC does!  I guess I’m lucky like that.  Nutrasweet has no affect on me either.  I LOVE that new Pepsi One stuff.  Talk about a life saver this week!

I haven’t tried Pepsi-One yet.  I liked Diet Pepsi, so I hope I like Pepsi-One.  However, the grocery store I go to has been having a lot of Coke sales, so it’s been Diet Coke for me.  Caffiene and artificial sweetners don’t seem to affect me either. I’m sticking in there and haven’t eaten that spegehetti (oh hell, I can’t spell it — whatever, noodles covered in tomatoey sauce), in fact, I threw out whatever tomatoes and pasta I had in the house so I could completely avoid it.  Hahaha…. there’s an Italian restaurant by the mall, I even drove around the long way to the mall so I didn’t even have to drive by it.  I’m either really determined or completely nuts.  (Both?)

You gotta do what you gotta do!  I’m proud of you for doing what you needed to stick with it!  Definitely determined, not nuts! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately I’ve been living off of chicken salad and tuna salad on lettuece and Wasa crackers.  And LOTS of turkey bacon.  I can’t seem to get enough of that stuff. Oh well, I feel better after banging on the keys for a while — when you are really sad/mad/pissy do you "type hard" too?  LOL.  I swear, I do that.  Oh well, at least I didn’t break a nail, then I’d be pissed for real!  Thanks for listening! Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Stacking / Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!

Isn’t this a good place to just come and vent?  I don’t type hard, but I do type faster and tend to make a lot more typos when I’m mad! Hang in there, most likely you will find that a lot of people here understand! Take care, Liz 202-188-140 — Nothing warms the lap (or heart) like a good cat. In memory of Kitten (June 1981-April 1998)  ^..^ The above address has been altered to avoid junk mail.  To email, please use: Thank you!

Response:

Hi Liz, Thank you so much for the encouragement, like I said before, I just let myself feel utterly sorry for myself then got my ass up and did what I needed to do.  Sounds silly I guess, but it’s always worked for me.  Of course, later you feel like a child, lol, but what the heck You have lost 20 pounds though!  That’s nothing to sneeze at!  I will be really happy to see the 20 pound mark come and go!

I know.  I got on and off that scale like 20 times to make sure.  LOL. At least it’s moving.  Said one more down this morning, but I don’t trust it until it says it two days in a row (yeah, I’m one of those that obsess if I don’t get on the scale every morning, but at least I don’t let the little fluctuations bother me too much). I know how that goes… I just got done moving too.  (However, just from Upper to Lower Michigan.)  But that is a big deal to move to (or from) Hawaii.. I have two friends who just moved to Maui in the summer.  They love it there, but it was a big pain in the ass to get there.  And I know how it feels to hate everything too.  I went through a lot of that this year, and still am going through that.  It seems like life is still pretty unsettled, but it at least is more settled than it was when I was at the stage of moving that you are at.

Hehehe…. I guess if I knew WHERE we are moving to, it would help somewhat.  :)  Michigan, eh?  I bet it’s starting to get cold up there Me too, and a lot of the rest of us… we have all been there!  Sometimes it seems like it’s never gonna end, but eventually it gets straightened out.  I wound up stopping low-carbing when I was moving and the damage was minimal, but I really think that is a huge ymmv thing.  There are many days when I could eat Little Debbie Swiss cake rolls all day, breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Oh gawd, I LOVE those things.  I don’t even LOOK at them in the store anymore because they are one of my vices and I KNOW that.  Of course, I love chocolate, and the Swiss Rolls…. yuuummmm….. as for the move, I hope to stay mainly low carb the whole time.  It’ll be hard though because I’ve been married for 6 years and only met his family once — and that was while we were engaged — and his mom I saw a year ago too.  I’m already nervous enough  and YOU had to mention the swiss rolls…. geez, thanks…. (Just kidding!!!) I haven’t tried Pepsi-One yet.  I liked Diet Pepsi, so I hope I like Pepsi-One.  However, the grocery store I go to has been having a lot of Coke sales, so it’s been Diet Coke for me.  Caffiene and artificial sweetners don’t seem to affect me either.

You can still taste the AS in Pepsi One, but it’s not as strong — Nutrasweet doesn’t bother me, but I don’t really care for the taste all that much. Isn’t this a good place to just come and vent?  I don’t type hard, but I do type faster and tend to make a lot more typos when I’m mad!

LOL….. weird how that works.  I do that at work too.  The guys can tell when I’m getting mad (I work for a construction company and I’m the only female in the company) because I start typing like crazy and really hard too Candie 297/276/130(?) (Since 09/13/98) Atkins http://come.to/candies (personal website, not selling nothing!) candieb (at) usa.net remove the "remove." from the reply-to to email me!

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Reg Riddle wrote: > Lady J wrote: > <Gina!! Bill got Simon to fill in for him while he’s gone!  : ) J > I think you’re right !!!   Or Simon is Bill in disguise….did you notice the > responses were exactly like something Bill would write !? > Simon….are you really Bill ? <kidding>   Thank you for the smiles which your > answers gave to me.  I see I have a worthy opponent here.  :-) > Your friend, > Gina > "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…." >                                                    —–   Grateful Dead

     They most certainly were.  Now, I always swore that guys had this little secret book they passed among themselves that had "lines" in it.  <smile>  Now, I’m wondering if they’ve got one with "comebacks" in it!! Hugs, J —         "Rivers belong where they can ramble             Eagles belong where they can fly               I’ve got to be where my spirit can run free                   Gotta find my corner of the sky."

Response:

Lady J wrote:

<Gina!! Bill got Simon to fill in for him while he’s gone!  : ) J I think you’re right !!!   Or Simon is Bill in disguise….did you notice the responses were exactly like something Bill would write !? Simon….are you really Bill ? <kidding>   Thank you for the smiles which your answers gave to me.  I see I have a worthy opponent here.  :-) Your friend, Gina "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…."                                                    —–   Grateful Dead

Response:

Lady J wrote: >>Well, Gina, at least you are learning a bit.  You waited ’till Bill didn’t >have a >telephone line hooked up before you posted these!  <laugh>  J

Hey…I "am" learning.   Oh no !!   I just remembered….it’s the week-end and he is supposed to be checking back with us !!  I might be in trouble, yet.  :-) Gina "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…."                                                    —–   Grateful Dead

Response:

Gina!! Bill got Simon to fill in for him while he’s gone!  : ) J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Simon wrote: > Reg Riddle wrote: > > The following are some excerpts from a very funny book.  Please note these are > > for SMILES ONLY and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the messenger…. > <snip> > > How does a man show he is planning for the future? > > He buys two cases of beer instead of one. > That "time machine" in his back yard, made of empty beer cans and > duct-tape. > > How do you know if a man is happy? > > See if he has a beer in one hand and the remote control in the other. > You don’t wanna know. > > What makes men chase women when they have no intention of marrying them? > > The same urge that makes dogs chase cars they have no intention of driving. > She took his wallet after last night, and now he needs it back. > > What a Man Says (And the Truth): > > I have a place at the beach. > > (He’s renting a tent for the week-end) > (I live in the back of van with a computer and quick-cam, if you know > what I mean) > > I have several leadership positions. > > (In the Cub Scouts) > (I’m sure I can ask my mom for help if anything happens) > > My company is thinking of transferring me. > > (To the unemployment line) > (They didn’t really enjoy my car bomb prank) > > I have a position in oil exploration. > > (He checks dipsticks at the gas station) > (I clean the sludge tanks behind mcdonalds for a living…) (oh god.. > the sludge tanks, you don’t even wanna know about them) > > My salary is into six figures. > > (If you count cents) > (In pesos) > > I keep my funds  in a diversified portfolio. > > ($20 cash / $20 checking / $20 savings) > (I’m too cheap to get a wallet, so I just keep whatever I have in this > paper portfolio I found on the street) > > My wife and I were incompatible. > > (She threw me out.) > (She uses mac, I use PC, nuff said) > > I feel something special for you. > > (Lust) > (You’re stepping on my foot) > > I want to know all about you. > > (In 2 minutes or less) > (Yes, I’m listening, that’s very facinating, now where did I put that > bag of peanuts, and that remote) > > How are "wonderful" men like atoms? > > You’ve heard they exist, but you’ve yet to actually see one. > Oh yeah, well, wait till I get a scanner. :p > > Oh come on!!!!   They are kinda funny.  :-) > > Gina > > "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…." > >                                                    —–   Grateful Dead > — >                                                 Yours sincerely, >                                                            Simon > — > This e-mail does not use any endangered species of text. It is > environment friendly and all the text can be recycled. > For PGP key finger milky…@finger.concentric.net > My ICQ UIN is 2086171 My AIM Nickname is SLVoid > —–BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK—– > Version: 3.12 > GCS/CM/SS d? s–: a— C++>$ UL P L+ E– > W++ N+++ O K? W+ O- M– V– PS@ PE- Y+ > PGP+ t++(*) 5+ X+++ R tv(++) b++ DI+++ D+ > G+ e- h! r–(—) !y+ > —–END GEEK CODE BLOCK—– > Useless quote of the day: > "You want to commit suicide? I’ll tell you how, old age, it’s the > slowest damn method, but so far, it’s been proven to be 100% > successful."

–         "Rivers belong where they can ramble             Eagles belong where they can fly               I’ve got to be where my spirit can run free                   Gotta find my corner of the sky."

Response:

Reg Riddle wrote: > The following are some excerpts from a very funny book.  Please note these are > for SMILES ONLY and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the messenger…. <snip> > How does a man show he is planning for the future? > He buys two cases of beer instead of one.

That "time machine" in his back yard, made of empty beer cans and duct-tape. > How do you know if a man is happy? > See if he has a beer in one hand and the remote control in the other.

You don’t wanna know. > What makes men chase women when they have no intention of marrying them? > The same urge that makes dogs chase cars they have no intention of driving.

She took his wallet after last night, and now he needs it back. > What a Man Says (And the Truth): > I have a place at the beach. > (He’s renting a tent for the week-end)

(I live in the back of van with a computer and quick-cam, if you know what I mean) > I have several leadership positions. > (In the Cub Scouts)

(I’m sure I can ask my mom for help if anything happens) > My company is thinking of transferring me. > (To the unemployment line)

(They didn’t really enjoy my car bomb prank) > I have a position in oil exploration. > (He checks dipsticks at the gas station)

(I clean the sludge tanks behind mcdonalds for a living…) (oh god.. the sludge tanks, you don’t even wanna know about them) > My salary is into six figures. > (If you count cents)

(In pesos) > I keep my funds  in a diversified portfolio. > ($20 cash / $20 checking / $20 savings)

(I’m too cheap to get a wallet, so I just keep whatever I have in this paper portfolio I found on the street) > My wife and I were incompatible. > (She threw me out.)

(She uses mac, I use PC, nuff said) > I feel something special for you. > (Lust)

(You’re stepping on my foot) > I want to know all about you. > (In 2 minutes or less)

(Yes, I’m listening, that’s very facinating, now where did I put that bag of peanuts, and that remote) > How are "wonderful" men like atoms? > You’ve heard they exist, but you’ve yet to actually see one.

Oh yeah, well, wait till I get a scanner. :p > Oh come on!!!!   They are kinda funny.  :-) > Gina > "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…." >                                                    —–   Grateful Dead

–                                                 Yours sincerely,                                                            Simon —                               This e-mail does not use any endangered species of text. It is environment friendly and all the text can be recycled. For PGP key finger milky…@finger.concentric.net My ICQ UIN is 2086171 My AIM Nickname is SLVoid —–BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK—– Version: 3.12 GCS/CM/SS d? s–: a— C++>$ UL P L+ E– W++ N+++ O K? W+ O- M– V– PS@ PE- Y+ PGP+ t++(*) 5+ X+++ R tv(++) b++ DI+++ D+ G+ e- h! r–(—) !y+ —–END GEEK CODE BLOCK—– Useless quote of the day: "You want to commit suicide? I’ll tell you how, old age, it’s the slowest damn method, but so far, it’s been proven to be 100% successful."

Response:

If you like this stuff, you should check out www.topfive.com very good stuff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Reg Riddle wrote: > The following are some excerpts from a very funny book.  Please note these are > for SMILES ONLY and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the messenger…. > If Women Ran Things: > 1)  Mother’s Day would become Mother’s Week; > 2)  Panty hose would be tax deductible; > 3)  Football season would be one week long; > 4)  Asking for directions would become a sign of manliness; > 5)  There would be a littering fine for dropping dirty clothes on the floor; > 6)  There would be a 7 day waiting period before men could purchase remote > controls. > The Top Ten Reasons Men Get Married: > 10)  Their Mothers refuse to do their laundry anymore. >   9)  Their tax accountants recommend it. >    They need someone to clean up their mess. >   7)  They need someone to install the batteries in their remote control. >   6)  They run out of food. >   5)  Sex >   4)  Sex >   3)  Sex >   2)  Sex >   1)  Sex > Men: > What do men consider the four seasons ? > Football, Basketball, Baseball and Hockey > Why did Dorothy get lost in Oz? > She had 3 men giving her directions. > Why do black widow spiders kill their mates after mating? > To stop the snoring before it begins. > A man thinks he is a snappy dresser if his socks match each other. > Why is it no use telling a man to go to hell? > He’d just get lost on the way. > Why don’t men have mid-life crises? > They stay stuck in adolescence. > How does a man show he is planning for the future? > He buys two cases of beer instead of one. > How do you know if a man is happy? > See if he has a beer in one hand and the remote control in the other. > What makes men chase women when they have no intention of marrying them? > The same urge that makes dogs chase cars they have no intention of driving. > What a Man Says (And the Truth): > I have a place at the beach. > (He’s renting a tent for the week-end) > I have several leadership positions. > (In the Cub Scouts) > My company is thinking of transferring me. > (To the unemployment line) > I have a position in oil exploration. > (He checks dipsticks at the gas station) > My salary is into six figures. > (If you count cents) > I keep my funds  in a diversified portfolio. > ($20 cash / $20 checking / $20 savings) > My wife and I were incompatible. > (She threw me out.) > I feel something special for you. > (Lust) > I want to know all about you. > (In 2 minutes or less) > How are "wonderful" men like atoms? > You’ve heard they exist, but you’ve yet to actually see one. > Oh come on!!!!   They are kinda funny.  :-) > Gina > "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…." >                                                    —–   Grateful Dead

–                                                 Yours sincerely,                                                            Simon —                               This e-mail does not use any endangered species of text. It is environment friendly and all the text can be recycled. For PGP key finger milky…@finger.concentric.net My ICQ UIN is 2086171 My AIM Nickname is SLVoid —–BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK—– Version: 3.12 GCS/CM/SS d? s–: a— C++>$ UL P L+ E– W++ N+++ O K? W+ O- M– V– PS@ PE- Y+ PGP+ t++(*) 5+ X+++ R tv(++) b++ DI+++ D+ G+ e- h! r–(—) !y+ —–END GEEK CODE BLOCK—– Useless quote of the day: "You want to commit suicide? I’ll tell you how, old age, it’s the slowest damn method, but so far, it’s been proven to be 100% successful."

Response:

The following are some excerpts from a very funny book.  Please note these are for SMILES ONLY and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the messenger…. If Women Ran Things: 1)  Mother’s Day would become Mother’s Week; 2)  Panty hose would be tax deductible; 3)  Football season would be one week long; 4)  Asking for directions would become a sign of manliness; 5)  There would be a littering fine for dropping dirty clothes on the floor; 6)  There would be a 7 day waiting period before men could purchase remote     controls. The Top Ten Reasons Men Get Married: 10)  Their Mothers refuse to do their laundry anymore.   9)  Their tax accountants recommend it.    They need someone to clean up their mess.   7)  They need someone to install the batteries in their remote control.   6)  They run out of food.   5)  Sex   4)  Sex   3)  Sex   2)  Sex   1)  Sex Men: What do men consider the four seasons ? Football, Basketball, Baseball and Hockey Why did Dorothy get lost in Oz? She had 3 men giving her directions. Why do black widow spiders kill their mates after mating? To stop the snoring before it begins. A man thinks he is a snappy dresser if his socks match each other. Why is it no use telling a man to go to hell? He’d just get lost on the way. Why don’t men have mid-life crises? They stay stuck in adolescence. How does a man show he is planning for the future? He buys two cases of beer instead of one. How do you know if a man is happy? See if he has a beer in one hand and the remote control in the other. What makes men chase women when they have no intention of marrying them? The same urge that makes dogs chase cars they have no intention of driving. What a Man Says (And the Truth): I have a place at the beach. (He’s renting a tent for the week-end) I have several leadership positions. (In the Cub Scouts) My company is thinking of transferring me. (To the unemployment line) I have a position in oil exploration. (He checks dipsticks at the gas station) My salary is into six figures. (If you count cents) I keep my funds  in a diversified portfolio. ($20 cash / $20 checking / $20 savings) My wife and I were incompatible. (She threw me out.) I feel something special for you. (Lust) I want to know all about you. (In 2 minutes or less) How are "wonderful" men like atoms? You’ve heard they exist, but you’ve yet to actually see one. Oh come on!!!!   They are kinda funny.  :-) Gina "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…."                                                    —–   Grateful Dead

Response:

Well, Gina, at least you are learning a bit.  You waited ’till Bill didn’t have a telephone line hooked up before you posted these!  <laugh>  J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Reg Riddle wrote: > The following are some excerpts from a very funny book.  Please note these are > for SMILES ONLY and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the messenger…. > If Women Ran Things: > 1)  Mother’s Day would become Mother’s Week; > 2)  Panty hose would be tax deductible; > 3)  Football season would be one week long; > 4)  Asking for directions would become a sign of manliness; > 5)  There would be a littering fine for dropping dirty clothes on the floor; > 6)  There would be a 7 day waiting period before men could purchase remote > controls. > The Top Ten Reasons Men Get Married: > 10)  Their Mothers refuse to do their laundry anymore. >   9)  Their tax accountants recommend it. >    They need someone to clean up their mess. >   7)  They need someone to install the batteries in their remote control. >   6)  They run out of food. >   5)  Sex >   4)  Sex >   3)  Sex >   2)  Sex >   1)  Sex > Men: > What do men consider the four seasons ? > Football, Basketball, Baseball and Hockey > Why did Dorothy get lost in Oz? > She had 3 men giving her directions. > Why do black widow spiders kill their mates after mating? > To stop the snoring before it begins. > A man thinks he is a snappy dresser if his socks match each other. > Why is it no use telling a man to go to hell? > He’d just get lost on the way. > Why don’t men have mid-life crises? > They stay stuck in adolescence. > How does a man show he is planning for the future? > He buys two cases of beer instead of one. > How do you know if a man is happy? > See if he has a beer in one hand and the remote control in the other. > What makes men chase women when they have no intention of marrying them? > The same urge that makes dogs chase cars they have no intention of driving. > What a Man Says (And the Truth): > I have a place at the beach. > (He’s renting a tent for the week-end) > I have several leadership positions. > (In the Cub Scouts) > My company is thinking of transferring me. > (To the unemployment line) > I have a position in oil exploration. > (He checks dipsticks at the gas station) > My salary is into six figures. > (If you count cents) > I keep my funds  in a diversified portfolio. > ($20 cash / $20 checking / $20 savings) > My wife and I were incompatible. > (She threw me out.) > I feel something special for you. > (Lust) > I want to know all about you. > (In 2 minutes or less) > How are "wonderful" men like atoms? > You’ve heard they exist, but you’ve yet to actually see one. > Oh come on!!!!   They are kinda funny.  :-) > Gina > "Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile…." >                                                    —–   Grateful Dead

–         "Rivers belong where they can ramble             Eagles belong where they can fly               I’ve got to be where my spirit can run free                   Gotta find my corner of the sky."

Response:

Question:

Now, this fellow Rich has some good points– that you should definitely seek a neurologist or neurosurgeon for a head injury.  That is a serious medical condition that needs immediate medical (that is, M.D./western) intervention. While I am open to the possibility that homeopathy may help some people, either as a therapy in itself or as an ADJUNCT to biomedicine, I also realize that biomedicine is absolutely essential in most critical, serious conditions (as yours seems to be.)   That being said, I wonder why Rich seems so determined to militantly BASH and DISMISS even the POSSIBILITY that homeopathy MAY be useful.

I realize that you think that I TOTALLY dismiss homeopathy as not useful for anything. Actually I DO believe that in many cases individuals with minor problems would benefit from homeopathy or ANY other alternative modality due to the placebo response (which is not well understood). Too many people too quickly turn to drugs when they are not really needed. Sometimes doing nothing is better than taking drugs. The trick is knowing when to do which. My major concern is those who think that homeopathy can supplant conventional medicine for severe conditions in which timely diagnosis and treatment is essential.   While I agree with him that many in the so-called "alternative" community are quick to dismiss those who have not received "cures" via their methods, he seems to be just as closed-minded in the opposite direction.

I have said repeatedly that if placebo controlled double blind studies that are replicated independently indicate that homeopathy works better than placebo then I will reconsider my position. I like to think of myself as open minded but not so open minded that my brains fall out. There is a difference between open mindedness and gullibility. What is needed today is a group of people whose eyes are open to POSSIBILITIES, yet remain SKEPTICAL enough to make real strides forward in finding those modalities that truly work– and who are willing to have an open, critical, unbiased, yet RESPECTFUL dialogue with those of ALL opinions.

I am all for doing studies to test the effectiveness for the therapy. I remain skeptical at this time however. Aloha,

Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Now, this fellow Rich has some good points– that you should definitely seek a neurologist or neurosurgeon for a head injury.  That is a serious medical condition that needs immediate medical (that is, M.D./western) intervention.  While I am open to the possibility that homeopathy may help some people, either as a therapy in itself or as an ADJUNCT to biomedicine, I also realize that biomedicine is absolutely essential in most critical, serious conditions (as yours seems to be.) That being said, I wonder why Rich seems so determined to militantly BASH and DISMISS even the POSSIBILITY that homeopathy MAY be useful.  While I agree with him that many in the so-called "alternative" community are quick to dismiss those who have not received "cures" via their methods, he seems to be just as closed-minded in the opposite direction. What is needed today is a group of people whose eyes are open to POSSIBILITIES, yet remain SKEPTICAL enough to make real strides forward in finding those modalities that truly work– and who are willing to have an open, critical, unbiased, yet RESPECTFUL dialogue with those of ALL opinions. What are NOT needed are those, both onthe "left" (militant "alternative" types) and the "right" (militnat "biomedical" types) who feel the need to dismiss out of hand all those who do not agree with them. We’re all in this together, and we’re all doing the best we can. Of course these are just my own opinions… glad to hear yours…

I second those emotions. Syd

Response:

Have you thought of a second opinion? i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan

Coffee does not antidote everything.

Response:

Now, this fellow Rich has some good points– that you should definitely seek a neurologist or neurosurgeon for a head injury.  That is a serious medical condition that needs immediate medical (that is, M.D./western) intervention. While I am open to the possibility that homeopathy may help some people, either as a therapy in itself or as an ADJUNCT to biomedicine, I also realize that biomedicine is absolutely essential in most critical, serious conditions (as yours seems to be.)   That being said, I wonder why Rich seems so determined to militantly BASH and DISMISS even the POSSIBILITY that homeopathy MAY be useful.  While I agree with him that many in the so-called "alternative" community are quick to dismiss those who have not received "cures" via their methods, he seems to be just as closed-minded in the opposite direction. What is needed today is a group of people whose eyes are open to POSSIBILITIES, yet remain SKEPTICAL enough to make real strides forward in finding those modalities that truly work– and who are willing to have an open, critical, unbiased, yet RESPECTFUL dialogue with those of ALL opinions. What are NOT needed are those, both onthe "left" (militant "alternative" types) and the "right" (militnat "biomedical" types) who feel the need to dismiss out of hand all those who do not agree with them. We’re all in this together, and we’re all doing the best we can. Of course these are just my own opinions… glad to hear yours… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan Hi Dan, I think you should go back to your homeopath and shout at him.  Complaining to strangers will do you no good and not relieve your anxiety. But shouting at him is SURE to do a lot of good:-)  I took my kid to a homeopathic MD about 4 years ago and during the interview he told me one day the kid would be able to carry his remedy for relief and that is all that he would need for the most part.  In your dreams I thought- all I wanted was a good night sleep every few days -you will understand this if you know anybody with a kid with asthma -so any improvement would have been fine by me.  Well, four years later it has happened my kid is able to use a remedy instead of a puffer and he is rarely needs his remedy. That is great that your kid is doing well. Many children "outgrow" their asthma so it is hardly clear that the homeopathy was the reason for the improvement. But it really does not matter as your child is doing well. Another thing I will tell you the aggravation you experienced is not uncommon if the remedy is well matched. Perhaps you could share with us how to distinguish aggravation due to a "healing crisis" from aggravation due to accumulation of blood in the brain??? Do you think that your average homeopath (with no formal medical training) can distinguish the two??? There is lots more to this, you will have to talk to your homeopath. Yes there is a lot more to this but will the homeopath have the knowledge to understand exactly what is involved after a brain injury.    Also, this is what is so funny about the arguments that what can be in a remedy after all it is so dilute it is nonexistent etc. – people do have reactions to them and sometimes it is unpleasant. What do you think they are reacting to? Impurities in the homeopathic remedy perhaps?? A worsening of their condition due to lack of treatment? Or some mysterious energy force contained in the homeopathic remedy due to the dilution and succussion??? Must be the latter:-)  Usually though, even though some things come back you handle it better in other words you should have felt better even though you had an aggravation and it appears this did not happen in you case. How can you possibly say he should have felt better???? Do you have a frigging clue what his problem is????? Do you think homeopathy can treat a subdural hematoma??? On second thought you probably do.   Also, there is a law of cure  one part of which  goes something like this – you will experience your symptoms in reverse order to their original appearance. Law?? Theory perhaps?? Fantasy more likely.  There is lots more to this.  Talk to you homeopath.  He should listen and explain things to you if he is a qualified reputable homeopath. Don’t take another remedy until you know exactly what to expect from the remedy. How does ANYONE know what to expect from a remedy EXACTLY. Everyone is different and it is not predictable how people will react with 100% certainty.  My nephew went to a homepath for a chest condition and the homeopath gave him a remedy and then proceeded to describe what my nephew could expect by way of symptoms ie first you will experience etc.  Well, that is exactly how my nephew’s illness progressed  after the remedy and it really blew him away. Do  u think that maybe your nephew is suggestible and if the homeopath described another set of symptoms that he may have had those??? Keep an open mind. You should have read up on homeopathy before you tried it so you had some idea of what it is and what questions to ask. If he read up on it he may not have even tried it.  You should have some confidence in your homeopath’s ability to help you. Why?? Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email

Response:

i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan

Hi Dan, I think you should go back to your homeopath and shout at him.  Complaining to strangers will do you no good and not relieve your anxiety.  I took my kid to a homeopathic MD about 4 years ago and during the interview he told me one day the kid would be able to carry his remedy for relief and that is all that he would need for the most part.  In your dreams I thought- all I wanted was a good night sleep every few days -you will understand this if you know anybody with a kid with asthma -so any improvement would have been fine by me.  Well, four years later it has happened my kid is able to use a remedy instead of a puffer and he is rarely needs his remedy.   Before  we saw our  homeopathic doctor,  we had used homeopathy but mainly  what is referred to as polypharmacy not individualized treatment.  Another thing I will tell you the aggravation you experienced is not uncommon if the remedy is well matched.  There is lots more to this, you will have to talk to your homeopath.    Also, this is what is so funny about the arguments that what can be in a remedy after all it is so dilute it is nonexistent etc. – people do have reactions to them and sometimes it is unpleasant.  Usually though, even though some things come back you handle it better in other words you should have felt better even though you had an aggravation and it appears this did not happen in you case.   Also, there is a law of cure  one part of which  goes something like this – you will experience your symptoms in reverse order to their original appearance.  There is lots more to this.  Talk to you homeopath.  He should listen and explain things to you if he is a qualified reputable homeopath. Don’t take another remedy until you know exactly what to expect from the remedy.  My nephew went to a homepath for a chest condition and the homeopath gave him a remedy and then proceeded to describe what my nephew could expect by way of symptoms ie first you will experience etc.  Well, that is exactly how my nephew’s illness progressed  after the remedy and it really blew him away.  You should have read up on homeopathy before you tried it so you had some idea of what it is and what questions to ask. Maybe you could find someone who has also used remedies to talk to. Homeopathy is a different approach from the it’s a symptom -kill it approach.  Also, not everything can be cured  depending on circumstances. You should have also discussed this with your homeopath ie what can you expect at best from homeopathic treatment or what does your homeopath expect to achieve given your present condition.  You should have some confidence in your homeopath’s ability to help you.   I hope this helps a bit.   If you have a specific question about agarius I will try to find the answer for you.      Angela  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan Hi Dan, I think you should go back to your homeopath and shout at him.  Complaining to strangers will do you no good and not relieve your anxiety.

But shouting at him is SURE to do a lot of good:-)   I took my kid to a homeopathic MD about 4 years ago and during the interview he told me one day the kid would be able to carry his remedy for relief and that is all that he would need for the most part.  In your dreams I thought- all I wanted was a good night sleep every few days -you will understand this if you know anybody with a kid with asthma -so any improvement would have been fine by me.  Well, four years later it has happened my kid is able to use a remedy instead of a puffer and he is rarely needs his remedy.

That is great that your kid is doing well. Many children "outgrow" their asthma so it is hardly clear that the homeopathy was the reason for the improvement. But it really does not matter as your child is doing well. Another thing I will tell you the aggravation you experienced is not uncommon if the remedy is well matched.

Perhaps you could share with us how to distinguish aggravation due to a "healing crisis" from aggravation due to accumulation of blood in the brain??? Do you think that your average homeopath (with no formal medical training) can distinguish the two???  There is lots more to this, you will have to talk to your homeopath.

Yes there is a lot more to this but will the homeopath have the knowledge to understand exactly what is involved after a brain injury.     Also, this is what is so funny about the arguments that what can be in a remedy after all it is so dilute it is nonexistent etc. – people do have reactions to them and sometimes it is unpleasant.

What do you think they are reacting to? Impurities in the homeopathic remedy perhaps?? A worsening of their condition due to lack of treatment? Or some mysterious energy force contained in the homeopathic remedy due to the dilution and succussion??? Must be the latter:-)   Usually though, even though some things come back you handle it better in other words you should have felt better even though you had an aggravation and it appears this did not happen in you case.

How can you possibly say he should have felt better???? Do you have a frigging clue what his problem is????? Do you think homeopathy can treat a subdural hematoma??? On second thought you probably do.    Also, there is a law of cure  one part of which  goes something like this – you will experience your symptoms in reverse order to their original appearance.

Law?? Theory perhaps?? Fantasy more likely.   There is lots more to this.  Talk to you homeopath.  He should listen and explain things to you if he is a qualified reputable homeopath. Don’t take another remedy until you know exactly what to expect from the remedy.

How does ANYONE know what to expect from a remedy EXACTLY. Everyone is different and it is not predictable how people will react with 100% certainty.   My nephew went to a homepath for a chest condition and the homeopath gave him a remedy and then proceeded to describe what my nephew could expect by way of symptoms ie first you will experience etc.  Well, that is exactly how my nephew’s illness progressed  after the remedy and it really blew him away.

Do  u think that maybe your nephew is suggestible and if the homeopath described another set of symptoms that he may have had those??? Keep an open mind.  You should have read up on homeopathy before you tried it so you had some idea of what it is and what questions to ask.

If he read up on it he may not have even tried it.   You should have some confidence in your homeopath’s ability to help you.

Why?? Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

I suggest you don’t take anything for your problem.

Oh is THIS what you suggest "Dr." Liz. You have not seen this person, you have not taken a history, you have not done a physical examination and yet you glibly tell him "to take NOTHING".  Perhaps it will go away in time, like most symptoms.

Oh maybe he will die as happens sometimes. But you are quite correct that with time most symptoms go away. Wonder if just maybe that is what is happening with homeopathic remedies???? You go to a homeopath and they give you a remedy and it does not work. They try another remedy and that does not work. Finally after a few weeks the third remedy works!! Voila. It was the third remedy that did it. It certainly was not the body just healing on its own as it often does.  No point in subjecting yourself to medicine that don’t work, is there?

How about going to a physician , getting a THOUROUGH evaluation, accurate diagnosis and appropriate treatment? However, if you went to see a professional, maybe they could find out the CAUSE of your problem which may then show the way to the cure?

Finally!!! As an afterthought you recommend seeing a professional to find the cause. Now what kind of professional do you recommend?? An iridologist, a chiropracter, an aromatherapist????? You think a neurologist or neurosurgeon would be useful given a head injury? Any responsible health care provider when told that a person has a head injury with severe cognitive dysfunction is totally irresponsible if they don’t refer to a qualified neurologic specialist. But this troll is effectively demonstrating how reluctant the alternatavists are in referring out to a physician and how incredibly dangerous it is to rely on an alternatavist for your primary health care. Aloha, Rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Liz i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan

Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan  <<  by the way, i took 10m of agaricus diluted it with 4 oz of water and took 2 eye droppers full per day,,, is this tooo much? can this be the reason why it did what it did? thanks

        Is this what the doctor asked you to do? I would follow the doctor’s guidelines. For how many days did you take? Even if you think it is too much and is causing a "proving", it should subside when you stop the medicine for a while. I have not heard of irreversible "provings" that you seem to imply. The worsening of symptoms could be due to something else and thus a coincidence. I would check out with a traditional (allopathic) doc to make sure there is nothing else wrong.         My impression was that homeopathy may take 3-4 visits over a couple of months or more to work. Sometimes the medicines do not match exactly to the symptoms, sometimes the symptoms change as the case progresses and have to be treated with other homeopathic medicines (remember homeopathy treats persons and symptoms, not diseases). If you are not happy with the doc and still want to give homeopathy a try, you could go to another doc you are comfortable with.         Good luck. keny (not a doc)

Response:

I suggest you don’t take anything for your problem.  Perhaps it will go away in time, like most symptoms.  No point in subjecting yourself to medicine that don’t work, is there? However, if you went to see a professional, maybe they could find out the CAUSE of your problem which may then show the way to the cure? Liz i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan

Response:

    If I had a patient do what you’ve done, I would promptly write them a referral to two or three other doctors who weren’t neccessarily my friends, and bid you farewell. why would you do that? according to your above statement, in essence youre saying that… this homeopathic remedy may have caused harm or may not….BUT that if  a patient was upset about the results you would tell them to take a hike and send them

elswhere??? ethical, real ethical… write back though bye

quote "by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not, work, the damage is done", NOW,   YOU STATE "its not like i drank tons of coffee in order to antidote… i went off the AGARICUS and drank a cup per day… whats wrong with

that??" either, thou protests too much, you are off your rocker, or something is really wrong here!!!  Let’s start again… Tell the WHOLE story, perhaps just the truth, NOT the HYSTERIA.  BTW, I hope this isn’t going to court, any attorney would have a field day with this type of

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i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan  <<

  by the way, i took 10m of agaricus diluted it with 4 oz of water and took 2 eye droppers full per day,,, is this tooo much? can this be the reason why it did what it did? thanks

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    If I had a patient do what you’ve done, I would promptly write them a referral to two or three other doctors who weren’t neccessarily my friends, and bid you farewell.

why would you do that? its not like i drank tons of coffee in order to antidote… i went off the AGARICUS and drank a cup per day… whats wrong with that?? according to your above statement, in essence youre saying that… this homeopathic remedy may have caused harm or may not….BUT that if  a patient was upset about the results you would tell them to take a hike and send them elswhere??? ethical, real ethical… write back though bye

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The people on this list don’t want to HEAR about failures with herbs or homeopathic treatments.  They BURY the failures and block them out of their conscious minds.  You may need to see a regular Medical Dr. if you haven’t already and if you have then I’m sorry for suggesting one.  I wish you well… — Also Please KNOW what you are taking and the reasons for it! Carol ….. **In a Podiatrist’s window: "Time wounds all heels."** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. -Dan

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i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again?

Let’s be fair, often when either I or someone I know has a medical problem, such as a side effect or the treatment is not working, we are told by just about ALL health care providers to return for follow-up and see if something else will work better, or if he/she can help in another way….  Just because it is a homeopath, don’t they deserve the same consideration?  This happens in ALL types of health care! this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan

Dan, Who says drinking "tons" of coffee would help your condition???  I honestly do NOT know the first thing about homeopathy, but in general health knowledge, drinking lots of coffee helps NOBODY but Juan Valdez. I don’t know the first thing about your condition, but it sounds quite over-reactionary…  How do you know the "worsening" is permanent and the damage is done???

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Dan,  there are only a few types of questions that a professional of any caliber can answer given an unknown case on a newsgroup, and your situation does not call for an offhand snap reply by anyone. As a matter of fact, knowing nothing about you other than the character of your current annoyance, I could see Agaricus possibly being an appropriate remedy – _in a certain homeopathic potency_, which could only be determined by a well trained and skilled _analyst_, and might very likely require adjustment according to your response or lack of.    This is simply the practise of clinical medicine, and holds equally true for the complementary approaches of nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathy and herbology. You’re not doing yourself a favor to second guess any doctor who you have chosen to see in the first place, and jump at suggestions to your desperate inquiries in this forum.    In your paranoid rush to antidote, you’ve basically screwed up the best first chance a professional might have had to evaluate how you were influenced (or not) by their first remedy selection.    I don’t have a clue what sort of brain damage you have (or maybe only think you have) and I’m not about to rattle off a dozen likely possible scenarios if for no other reason than not wanting to contribute to any psychogenic component.    If I had a patient do what you’ve done, I would promptly write them a referral to two or three other doctors who weren’t neccessarily my friends, and bid you farewell.   On the assumption that some doctor already told you there is brain damage, then you should still be under their care, and especially if it is a recent injury under their _responsibility_, which still means it’s your responsibility to follow their instructions about followup care and return visits, which are usually advised when there is a change of condition. Unless it’s been determined you have an operable tumor, it is unlikely that mainstream physicians have offered you anything curative other than physical re-training therapy (which probably _is_ appropriate) and/or drug maintenance which is just as likely to bring on a gamut of aggravation and unpleasant secondary symptoms.    Which is probably what brought you to the homeopath anyway, so your public critical expression here is unwarranted.    There are few if any competant homeopaths at a professional level ever writing in this forum, and doctors do not generally discuss the complex issues of case management with laypersons, ever, anywhere.    There are a few persons shooting off their opinions in this newsgroup about acupuncture, herbs and homeopathy with _no_ professional level training or experience on these vast and difficult subjects.    There has recently been a deluge of ignorant and misguided (although I’m sure well intentioned) statements.    I don’t have the time or inclination to try to bring people up to speed on subjects they don’t have any specific background in.    Intelligent and educated persons tend to think that everything can be synopsized on their own terms.    This just isn’t the case with traditional medical systems ;  I can’t impart comprehension that has taken me as long as fifteen years of study and practise to gradually _get_. My opinion is that the remedy you took _could not_ do the physical damage you claim, unless it was a physical dosage potency (unlikely).    So-called _homeopathic aggravation_ is always temporary, and I personally doubt claims of it ever lasting more than a few weeks.    An experienced doctor will know how to manage the situation, which could (at worst) involve a choice to grin-and-bear-it for a while, wait for a clear picture of another choice to emerge, or at the other extreme do something to antidote.        Or, given the onset of certain neurological signs (which _many_, but not all Licensed alternative practitioners are qualified to make competant triage assessment of), refer you out to a specialist or the ER immediately (who may very well then play up suspicion of malpractise at the hands of a _quack_, even though in fact they would most likely believe there’s not a chance in the world that a homeopathic dilution could have anything to do with the symptom progression). It is NOT UNLIKELY that the worsening you experienced is merely coincidental to taking the remedy, which especially in higher _potency_ can only be considered an _influence_ to your own self-healing mechanisms (and probably a very short-lived one at that), because there is no evidence of or reason to assume drug-like action.    It could be said that the whole point of both homeopathic treatment (homeopath-Y is only about _analysis_ as far as I’m concerned), and acupuncture needling is to provide the slightest possible specific stimulus which can _influence / enable_ the person’s own curative processes.    That’s all. ______ Also, Nospam (Carol) wrote : Also Please KNOW what you are taking and the reasons for it! <<

That’s nice in theory.    Now try applying that to 90% of the procedures and treatments of mainstream medicine,  and what will you get ?  . . . . . .   You’ll get meaningless contrived statistics, and idiotic survey polls purporting to rate _customer satisfaction_.    Of course it’s good to try to be aware of and understand everything important in your life, including how your car works, what lawyers and accountants do, where electricity comes from, where the garbage goes to, etc..    Many people don’t have a clue,  and the rest of us typically find a point where we realize that much of the depth of whatever matter is either beyond our comprehension or beyond the education we’re willing to invest.    So that’s why we have professions.    Simplistic consumer advocate strategies all too often wind up in some way being opposed to the personal responsibility that brought them about ( ! )      Specifically regarding the rational for a particular treatment using acupuncture, chinese herbal formulas, or homeopathy,  much of the time it is absolutely not possible to communicate this properly to a patient, and efforts to do so (beyond the type of statement I made above about _influence_) only lead to misunderstanding and the type of misinformed comments that I see pop up frequently in this forum. Joe Reid i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury

and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan  <<

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i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan

Dan Not having seen your earlier post, I hope this isn’t coming too late. You need to find a physician who incorporates alternative and complementary medicine in his/her practice. A homeopath may not be enough to help you through recovery from brain injury. I know I recommend this site quite a lot but it’s one of the few reputable sources for balanced medical information and has a directory to help you find the right healer: http://cgi.pathfinder.com/drweil/ Good luck, C.L. Getz Please change "nospam" to "net" in e-mail address to reply.

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i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan

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