Question:

I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right.

Wouldn’t it be funny now if your Boss’s wife frequents this NG

Response:

COGS is affected by inventory, but not the other way around. If you are scratching your heads here’s a more detailed answer. Before modern accounting systems and databases were able to track costs of individual items, the traditional method said: Cost of Goods Sold  = Opening Inventory  + Puchases – Closing Inventory Modern accounting systems Credit inventory and debit COGS every time an item is sold so, the link between inventory and COGS is tenuous and minor. (In fact, most accounting systems mainatain a separate detail of the individual purchase price of inventory items for COGS purposes, but i digress here.) to simplify things, WIP is just another form of inventory on hand. The purpose of an accounting system is to help you track your Assets and Liabilities and your Income and Expenses, and finally, by derivation the net profit or loss. A lot of us lose sight of that basic principle. The chart of accounts came in to being to help categorize those four or five broad classes. For example, if you book Telephone or Utility expenses in the Warehousing Expenses account, the net profit/loss does not change. However, allocating or categorizing expenses correctly helps businesses make intelligent management decisions. It can answer questions such as How much does it cost me to sell a certain product? What are the direct costs such as cost of goods? what are the indirect costs, such as Travel and meals expenses? How does one determine the level of detail?  Every business has a different chart of accounts – some are more detailed than others. Job Costing and Project Costing are just other means to "Slice and Dice" the income and expenses to help determine the "real" cost of a job. Standards evolved to define the differences the five broad categories and to clarify the grey areas where there are overlaps – for example – between Cost of Goods and Expenses. – between an Asset and an Expense (Capitalizing expenses)  and here is another grey area: Depreciation It is an odd thing; it is both a real and a virtual cost.  You really do not know how much an asset has depreciated until you sell it (or scrap it ) meanwhile, it makes sense to write off some portion of the asset’s value as time and use take their toll in the asset. Of course there are tax implications as well.  Now a days, it seems to be that the tax tail is wagging the dog – we do so many things to "minimze" taxes, but it really should not be that way. Therefore to answer the question of where to book the number – I’ll agree with SM Serba (and you)  that Expenses do not belong in COGS If you feel strongly about it, you should make your case based on why or how tracking it under Expenses vs Cost of Goods is more useful.  However, since you use Job Costing as well, you may have some difficulty making your case. HS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can’t help specifically with Canadian Tax Law but generally COGS effect your Closing Stock and WIP. This in turn effects your profits and tax. Expensing the items would give you an immediate tax deduction, while allocating it to COGS may defer/ delay that deduction (if you account for WIP). WOW. Thanks for that info. While it may not pertain to Canadian Tax laws it gave me some general insight (more than I had before). BTW, what the heck does "WIP" stand for? Yes — I will Google WIP, but I had to ask here too. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Appreciated and much learned.

Response:

snip I guess I want to know: Is there is any tax advantage/disadvantage (under Canadian Tax Law) for allocating Meals, Gas, Travel (in an INCOME STATEMENT) to to COST OF GOODS SOLD as opposed to allocating those expenses to the named indiviual EXPENSE accounts?

Can’t help specifically with Canadian Tax Law but generally COGS effect your Closing Stock and WIP. This in turn effects your profits and tax. Expensing the items would give you an immediate tax deduction, while allocating it to COGS may defer/ delay that deduction (if you account for WIP).

Response:

Can’t help specifically with Canadian Tax Law but generally COGS effect your Closing Stock and WIP. This in turn effects your profits and tax. Expensing the items would give you an immediate tax deduction, while allocating it to COGS may defer/ delay that deduction (if you account for WIP).

WOW. Thanks for that info. While it may not pertain to Canadian Tax laws it gave me some general insight (more than I had before). BTW, what the heck does "WIP" stand for? Yes — I will Google WIP, but I had to ask here too. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Appreciated and much learned.

Response:

BTW, what the heck does "WIP" stand for? Yes — I will Google WIP, but I had to ask here too.

WIP = Work In Progress (some prefer "Process") ~bill in tx

Response:

Meals, Gas expenses, etc, do not uniformly increase the cost of goods being sold. These expenses are not incurred in obtaining ALL sales, only particular sales. I do not believe there is any tax advantage to one or the other, however it does stick in my craw. Costs applied to COGS are items such as shipping, brokerage fees to bring goods over the border, PST applied in the same situation, any any overhead costs in running the shop. Also, in some situations, you might add labour in production, packaging if specially made for a particular item or items. What you are talking about are sales expenses, and in that case every expense incurred does not necessarily lead to a sale. It does not directly increase your cost of goods. Therefore, I would NOT apply those costs to COGS, rather to their expense accounts instead. I would, however, speak to your accountant that prepares the taxes and performs your review engagement. Ultimately, his understanding of the benefits/drawbacks of any expense handling will be determined by him. If you get it wrong, he will have you fix it through appropriate year-end adjustments. Better to get it right the first time. And let the accountant tell your boss and his wife they are wrong. Unless of course she’s an accountant, then their CA is wrong and they will be engaging a new one! — Stephanie Serba, AICIA Partner, Durham Business Outsource Accounting & Technology smserba <at dbo <dot ca www.dbo.ca

if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

<snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there is any tax advantage/disadvantage (under Canadian Tax Law) for allocating Meals, Gas, Travel (in an INCOME STATEMENT) to to COST OF GOODS SOLD as opposed to allocating those expenses to the named indiviual EXPENSE accounts? Not being a trained accountant, just trying to get a small business’s books usable. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks

Response:

I’m not sure about the Canadian treatment of this, but if you are concerned about the tax implications, maybe you should try to post this on a tax news group. A good one is: misc.taxes.moderated BTW Even if you find out you are right it is probably a good idea not to try to correct the bosses wife. — Mark Wiley Accountant Oneonta, NY 13820

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

Response:

Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish! I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right.

Ack! Coffee just about came out of my nose when reading your retort (re: boss’s wife)! Sad but true. Thanks for the response — appreciated. But I’m still wondering if there are any tax detriments/benefits by lumping those kind of expenses into COGS as opposed to entering them into their separate categories. Thanks again for the, almost, explosive chuckle.

Response:

//snipped// – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish! I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right.

I strongly disagree!    The boss’s wife is **always** correct!! Some thoughts on the matter.  Your method has advantages when costing out certain jobs.  One should certainly consider whether the costing method will make a significant difference in the information it yields and how you will use the information.  Will applying it as a direct cost help you in estimating the costs of future jobs of a similar nature?  Your method gives you a more accurate figure of the cost of particular jobs.  Will it significantly affect how much you invoice the customers?

Response:

  if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish! I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right. I strongly disagree!    The boss’s wife is **always** correct!! Some thoughts on the matter.  Your method has advantages when costing out certain jobs.  One should certainly consider whether the costing method will make a significant difference in the information it yields and how you will use the information.  Will applying it as a direct cost help you in estimating the costs of future jobs of a similar nature?  Your method gives you a more accurate figure of the cost of particular jobs.  Will it significantly affect how much you invoice the customers?

K, maybe I left out some points. Our accounting software also has a JOB-COSTING module where you can separately apply expenses (such as Meals, Gas, Shop Supplies, COGS etc.) against individual job estimates/quotes/invoices. This module allows loss/profit tracking for each job (kind of). This Job Costing module is not tied into the General Ledger Expense Accounts. When presented with a receipt for GAS, MEALS etc. I apply them towards their named G/L expense accounts. When I apply these expenditures via the G/L our accounting system asks if the expenses should also be associated with particular JOB NUMBERS (single client job numbers). I am tracking single job expenses already via the JOB NUMBER (Costing) module. I guess I want to know: Is there is any tax advantage/disadvantage (under Canadian Tax Law) for allocating Meals, Gas, Travel (in an INCOME STATEMENT) to to COST OF GOODS SOLD as opposed to allocating those expenses to the named indiviual EXPENSE accounts? Not being a trained accountant, just trying to get a small business’s books usable. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks

Response:

Question:

:IMO if it is legitimate, PAY IT! If it’s a legit charge, you are most likely legally obligated to pay it.   I don’t know who Bionaire is, but in my industry, the backbilling statutes go back 2 years, though most companies will write off billing mistakes older than 6 months. Brian Kennedy

Response:

Sandy Santra wrote Did anyone get an email from Bionaire today?  Well, I did.  They want to charge me NOW for an accounting error they made FOUR MONTHS AGO.

Aren’t CEO’s just now being prosecuted for their accounting errors<G made several years ago? Maybe they should get off too? IMO if it is legitimate, PAY IT! JMO Dan O.

Response:

I guess if they billed for something 50 years later that would be ok.

Well, are they charging any interest???? Gee, I’d love it if the finance company had not bothered to bill me until today, for the new Porsche I had back in 1982.  The price of that Porsche, which looked high at the time, is less than what my Chrysler cost this year.  It would also be great if the bank forgot to charge me mortgage payments for a few years, and then only wanted the basic amount with no penalties. Actually, through a mixup, the sublandlord forgot to bill us for real estate taxes on one of our business locations, for 5 years.  Even though we called a couple of times to find out why we were not getting bills (did OP call and point out the error to the merchant???).  When they finally billed us, we said, gee, this is an awful big shot at once, and it is really your fault, so how about giving us time to pay? And they gave us another 5 years to pay, no interest, just the basic amounts we were supposed to pay anyway per the contract.  Seems like a pretty good deal for us, free financing for 10 years total. But I guess if I was, OP, I would have tried a class action suit instead???? -v.

Response:

Did anyone get an email from Bionaire today?  Well, I did.  They want to charge me NOW for an accounting error they made FOUR MONTHS AGO. I spent an hour on the phone today fighting them over this charge. 1. They refuse to give me the name of the company that administers their online ordering system. 2. They refuse to acknowledge the idiocy of charging someone 4 months later for a mistake they made. 3. They refuse to understand that by not discussing the above with me, they have just lost a long-term customer. Does anyone know the statute of limitations for something like this? Is anyone interested in a class action suit on this?

Response:

If the amount of their accounting error is so large that it is a hardship for you to pay it, then surely you should have noticed at the time that the amount they were charging you was incorrect and pointed out the error to them. If the amount of their accounting error is *not* that large, and they are correct that an error was made and they should have charged you more money, then why not just pay it?  You asked them to provide you with a service and agreed to pay a certain amount of money for that service.  Did they provide the service you asked them to provide?  If so, then the fact that they took a long time to bill you does not change the fact that you owe them the money. An honorable person accepts the fact that people make mistakes and pays people what he owes them, rather than looking for excuses not to. If this is the way you deal with people, I don’t think they’ve lost much in losing you as a long-term customer.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the amount of their accounting error is so large that it is a hardship for you to pay it, then surely you should have noticed at the time that the amount they were charging you was incorrect and pointed out the error to them. If the amount of their accounting error is *not* that large, and they are correct that an error was made and they should have charged you more money, then why not just pay it?  You asked them to provide you with a service and agreed to pay a certain amount of money for that service.  Did they provide the service you asked them to provide?  If so, then the fact that they took a long time to bill you does not change the fact that you owe them the money. An honorable person accepts the fact that people make mistakes and pays people what he owes them, rather than looking for excuses not to. If this is the way you deal with people, I don’t think they’ve lost much in losing you as a long-term customer.

AND, I’ll bet if she found a 120 day old error in her favor she’d be crying for a credit.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the amount of their accounting error is so large that it is a hardship for you to pay it, then surely you should have noticed at the time that the amount they were charging you was incorrect and pointed out the error to them. If the amount of their accounting error is *not* that large, and they are correct that an error was made and they should have charged you more money, then why not just pay it?  You asked them to provide you with a service and agreed to pay a certain amount of money for that service.  Did they provide the service you asked them to provide?  If so, then the fact that they took a long time to bill you does not change the fact that you owe them the money. An honorable person accepts the fact that people make mistakes and pays people what he owes them, rather than looking for excuses not to. If this is the way you deal with people, I don’t think they’ve lost much in losing you as a long-term customer. AND, I’ll bet if she found a 120 day old error in her favor she’d be crying for a credit.

Yeah, and what do you think Bionaire’s response be?  LOL.

Response:

Did anyone get an email from Bionaire today?

Who is "Bionaire"?  I’ve never had an e-mail from them. charge me NOW for an accounting error they made FOUR MONTHS AGO.

So, they are slow, laugh at them for being dumb enough to let you have their money for so long. I spent an hour on the phone today fighting them over this charge.

Why?  Do you owe it or not? 1. They refuse to give me the name of the company that administers their online ordering system.

So what.  Who says they have to.  Do you have to disclose who you, say, buy your computers from? 2. They refuse to acknowledge the idiocy of charging someone 4 months later for a mistake they made.

So what?  What would you do different if the person said, "Yes, we are idiots to not catch this for 4 months."  You still owe it. 3. They refuse to understand that by not discussing the above with me, they have just lost a long-term customer.

They may well understand that, but want their money anyway.  Maybe they do not want the kind of people for long term customers, that wouldn’t pay what they owe. Does anyone know the statute of limitations for something like this?

Depends on what state.  Get a lawyer in your state to advise you. You are probably barking up the wrong tree with this course of action. Is anyone interested in a class action suit on this?

For what, that they are slow to bill you for what you owe?  Did you know they had undercharged you?  Trying to get away with it, and now you’re mad that you got caught???  Why are you so irate about it? They are right aren’t they, you should have been charged for this 4 months ago, how are you harmed by the delay???? You sound like a selfish and unprincipalled idiot. -v.

Response:

For what, that they are slow to bill you for what you owe?  Did you know they had undercharged you?  Trying to get away with it, and now you’re mad that you got caught???

I don’t think the person said any of that.  Why are you so irate about it? They are right aren’t they, you should have been charged for this 4 months ago, how are you harmed by the delay???? You sound like a selfish and unprincipalled idiot.

I guess if they billed for something 50 years later that would be ok. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -v.

Response:

I guess if they billed for something 50 years later that would be ok.

There is clearly an amount of time after which is is unreasonable for a merchant to bill for a previous undercharge.  How long that is, is somewhat subjective, but I think it is clear to most reasonable people that four months is shorter and 50 years is longer.  Especially when the original poster admits that the money is owed, i.e., that the only issue is the four-month delay in billing. To be blunt, if you don’t understand the difference between attempting to correct an error in billing on a durable goods purchase four months after the fact vs. 50 years after the fact, then you are a huge idiot.

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Question:

SEC’s Pitt Calls for Stock Option Reforms By Jackie Spinner Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, April 5, 2002; Page E03 Corporations should not be able to freely hand out stock options to senior executives without more input from shareholders and independent directors of the company, Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey L. Pitt said yesterday. <snip Options should be awarded by a committee of independent directors to executives who oversee sustained growth at a company and should not be based on short-term earnings growth, Pitt said in a speech at Northwestern University in Chicago. <snip One proposed reform that Pitt has not embraced would require companies to treat stock options as an expense. Some proponents of the change say the current system allows companies to use options to attract and retain top executives without taking a hit to the bottom line. Pitt did not address that issue yesterday. "That is a dog that is not barking in this speech," said Lynn Stout, a securities law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles. "The real problem lies in the accounting treatment of stock options. His failure to address that issue is quite notable." — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SEC’s Pitt Calls for Stock Option Reforms By Jackie Spinner Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, April 5, 2002; Page E03 Corporations should not be able to freely hand out stock options to senior executives without more input from shareholders and independent directors of the company, Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey L. Pitt said yesterday. <snip Options should be awarded by a committee of independent directors to executives who oversee sustained growth at a company and should not be based on short-term earnings growth, Pitt said in a speech at Northwestern University in Chicago. <snip One proposed reform that Pitt has not embraced would require companies to treat stock options as an expense. Some proponents of the change say the current system allows companies to use options to attract and retain top executives without taking a hit to the bottom line. Pitt did not address that issue yesterday. "That is a dog that is not barking in this speech," said Lynn Stout, a securities law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles. "The real problem lies in the accounting treatment of stock options. His failure to address that issue is quite notable."

As mentioned in previous posts, GWB’s appointment of Pitt incited skepticism. Based on information available publicly, Pitt appears to be someone who wets his finger, sees which direction the wind is blowing, and walks slowly in that direction lest the wind change. This description fits the usual definition of "amoral". Pitt, like the Big 4 and others profiting from the "soft occupational fraud system", will try and wait out the storm, do nothing that would really rock the boat, and soon get back to business (= doing and condoning creative accounting) as usual. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": strategic Waco, Texas World Trade Center Honduras SDI kibo cryptographic

Response:

<<SNIP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One proposed reform that Pitt has not embraced would require companies to treat stock options as an expense. Some proponents of the change say the current system allows companies to use options to attract and retain top executives without taking a hit to the bottom line. Pitt did not address that issue yesterday. "That is a dog that is not barking in this speech," said Lynn Stout, a securities law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles. "The real problem lies in the accounting treatment of stock options. His failure to address that issue is quite notable." As mentioned in previous posts, GWB’s appointment of Pitt incited skepticism. Based on information available publicly, Pitt appears to be someone who wets his finger, sees which direction the wind is blowing, and walks slowly in that direction lest the wind change. This description fits the usual definition of "amoral". Pitt, like the Big 4 and others profiting from the "soft occupational fraud system", will try and wait out the storm, do nothing that would really rock the boat, and soon get back to business (= doing and condoning creative accounting) as usual.

That is exactly my working hypothesis of Mr. Pitt. I do hope, Lucien, that you and I are mistaken about him. Regards, Bill

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Question:

Well, when you "acquire" a magazine that is already profitable like sue and greg did, what do you expect?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg… You misunderstood……When I e-mailed about the mag, the message on the web site was not up.  But….since they posted the message, it became clear that they knew at the time they accepted my subscription that they were in serious trouble.  The only way I found out that they were folding was that I hadn’t gotten my mags and then I got the letter from Aquascapes. Interesting too is the fact thatHelen badmouthed Sue and Greg S….but guess who is still publishing a magazine? Additionally, Helen and Dave may be declaring bankruptcy but as far as I know, the business of Pond and Garden is not. Hope this clears up my post a bit. Ann

Response:

Ann: I now understand the sequence of events.. Thanks for the clarification.. Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg… You misunderstood……When I e-mailed about the mag, the message on the web site was not up.  But….since they posted the message, it became clear that they knew at the time they accepted my subscription that they were in serious trouble.  The only way I found out that they were folding was that I hadn’t gotten my mags and then I got the letter from Aquascapes. Interesting too is the fact thatHelen badmouthed Sue and Greg S….but guess who is still publishing a magazine? Additionally, Helen and Dave may be declaring bankruptcy but as far as I know, the business of Pond and Garden is not. Hope this clears up my post a bit. Ann

Response:

If that is the case, then I stand corrected! The action you describe would constitute fraud, (accepting money for a service that person(s) KNEW would not be provided WHEN they accepted your money). Legal recourse could be undertaken against the person(s) involved that could extend beyond the cost of the service you subscribed to. Federal bankruptcy protection would not apply, as this would be a civil action. I have one question.. Why did you subscribe, if the web site said they were going out of business??? (her email not withstanding). That note on the web site would have made me very concerned, and I would have at least waited to see what actually would happen! If you have that email (stating all is ok.. send us the $$) saved I would be interested in seeing it. Feel free to email me at my acsu.buffalo address. (my adelphia account is bouncing emails) Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – when a company goes bankrupt, nor are there with its business practices, UNLESS the company took your money under false pretenses (ie took it when they knew they were on the way out, Exactly!  When I subscribed, according to their web site and Marilyn’s letter, they KNEW they were going out of business.  But she hold off on obtaining new subscribers?  Nope.  Instead Helen and Marilyn sent an e-mail stating that all was well and send that money on in to us.  Unethical….in my book, you betcha. And yes, I did get a refund check….we’ll see if it bounces or not. Ann

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Greg… You misunderstood……When I e-mailed about the mag, the message on the web site was not up.  But….since they posted the message, it became clear that they knew at the time they accepted my subscription that they were in serious trouble.  The only way I found out that they were folding was that I hadn’t gotten my mags and then I got the letter from Aquascapes. Interesting too is the fact thatHelen badmouthed Sue and Greg S….but guess who is still publishing a magazine?   Additionally, Helen and Dave may be declaring bankruptcy but as far as I know, the business of Pond and Garden is not.   Hope this clears up my post a bit. Ann

Response:

when a company goes bankrupt, nor are there with its business practices, UNLESS the company took your money under false pretenses (ie took it when they knew they were on the way out,

Exactly!  When I subscribed, according to their web site and Marilyn’s letter, they KNEW they were going out of business.  But she hold off on obtaining new subscribers?  Nope.  Instead Helen and Marilyn sent an e-mail stating that all was well and send that money on in to us.  Unethical….in my book, you betcha. And yes, I did get a refund check….we’ll see if it bounces or not. Ann

Response:

(Annb860) writes: Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  

And  SO should YOU when you send money to someone!!! Now go to your room and cry!!

Response:

I think in the end, the anger you seem to be holding on to will be far more costly to you than the $35 subscription. It is all in how you choose to view a situation, and my experience has been that it is beneficial to attempt to view people in the most positive light. I sincerely believe that most people have good intentions, even if their choices produce unwanted outcomes. I think this is confirmed in this case by the fact that your money was refunded, even when you had no legal means by which to collect it. After a bankruptcy, Marilyn was NOT personally responsible to refund your  money, nor was she even obligated to respond to your request. The fact that she did both, speaks volumes. You seem to have painted both her and Helen as unscrupulous thieves in your mind, but what if you tried to picture them as simply two people who’s business venture failed? While you may well disagree with her choices in handling the matter, as I do also, perhaps her motives were not as evil as you imagine. Maybe she just made a bad choice. (Very likely on the advice of her accountants and attorneys.) Since we’ll never know for sure which picture is true, it seems to me that it would be wise to choose the one that gives you a sense of peace, rather that a feeling of anger. As for 9/11 – all the more reason to let go of the little things and get on with the business of celebrating life. Just my .02 Hope it helps. — Cheers, Laura http://www.geocities.com/pinkmousedesign rec.ponds FAQ http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money. I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved. Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint. Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not. Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not. I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions. As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad. Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go. Ann

Response:

you are mean . . .  . . . and reposting e-mails is sleazy

Response:

Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money. I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint. Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not.  Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not. I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions.   As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad.  Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go. Ann    

Response:

With uncanny insight into life, the Universe, and everything, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money. I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint. Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not.  Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not. I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions.   As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad.  Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go. Ann    

To which I’d like to add a hearty, "right on!" I am not, nor was I ever a client of Helen’s but have been following the fate of the mag here online.   Bad.  Really bad. And, yes, business email, like any business correspondence not involving payments or trade secrets, may be made public, IMNSHO. Cybe R. Wizard — Unofficial "Wizard of Odds", A.H.P. Original PORG Water Wizard, R.P. Wize(ned) Wizard, A.P.F-P-Y Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

Response:

Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money.

I think that latter statement applies to just about everyone I know! I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way.

I never met or even corresponded with her, so I can’t comment on her as a person. That fact that her business went bankrupt is neither a reflection on her ethics, nor necessarily her practices, as I am sure anyone with business background can confirm. I, being a non-business type, can only say that her books have added MUCH to the hobby. Furthermore, having been active in ponding for now over 20 years, her series of books is probably the best I’ve seen during that time frame that can be used to introduce newcomers into our hobby. They are written in a form just about everyone can understand. There have been other top of the line texts written, but few have offered the number and literary style she has employed. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed.

I think after reading the email to you, she (Marilyn) is attempting to explain to an irate customer (you)what happened. She did not send out a general notice "crying the blues", or blaming others. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint.

As with anything in life, caveat emptor. Just like she is a "big girl", so are you. You subscribed (in good faith I am sure, as did we all). She took your money and delivered you a magazine, which at some point folded (went bankrupt). When a company goes bankrupt, it may seek either chapter 11 or 7. The US legal system set that up to provide personal protection against company creditors. The subscription monies (all of ours, not just yours) were lost. As with any bankrupt company, if you want your money back, you need to stand in line with the rest of the creditors.  If there is money left, you get your % of it. It usually is not 100%, which apparently you were successful at receiving. There are usually no ethical issues when a company goes bankrupt, nor are there with its business practices, UNLESS the company took your money under false pretenses (ie took it when they knew they were on the way out, spent it on non business related items, etc, etc.). That doesn’t seem to be the case, as presented here. As far as theft, that doesn’t apply in this case either(per one of our pond club members I shared your postings with, who just so happens to practice coporate law). Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not. Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not.

Ok then those are your real issues? I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices.

Again, I have never met her, so I have no personal feelings either way. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions.

If that is your main take home message, then….. As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad. Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go.

I would be very careful with statements being expressed in a public forum. Your statement "Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers" certainly opens you up to charges of slander and/or defamation, unless you can substantiate it with facts, and that is a caution from our club lawyer! As far as copying private correspondence on a public forum, I said it is bad form, business or otherwise, as it was intended to be private. I never said it was not legal (- Cybe R Wizard) I must assume you posted this to get others to become angry, and become "squeaky wheels" so they would demand their money back as well. Why else? You have already gotten your subscription 100% refunded.. As for me, I will not kick a downed horse. Seems to me a book I once read (not written by Helen Nash, or any author I personally know by the way) said something about "forgiving our debtors"…. hmmm… (I must have read that in some water related book!) Ann

Greg

Response:

Ann You make is sound like they set this whole charade up to swindle you out of $35. You – with your referrence to Attorneys General  - infer that a criminal enterprise was afoot. Obviously you have never poured your money and soul into such an undertaking. Subscription revenues are a tiny part of the money it takes to put put a magzine – or even a newsletter – regularly. Very few publications grow to be successful ala Taunton – and they had to fold Kitchen Gardner which was a stellar publication. I guarantee you that their pain so far exceeds yours that you cannot imagine it. DAMHIKT Peter

Response:

I think that when you buy into anything you take the chance that it may fold,   especially in these turbulent times.  I remember you, Ann,  from several years ago. We disagreed then and we disagree now. You haven’t chosen to take an active part in this group and only do so now to badmouth Helen. Nedra www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone…. I don’t post here much but have some answers to the thread about P and G. I was really quite outraged that Helen Nash simply folded her magazine without so much as a word to the subscribers.  I too wondered how Aquascapes had gotten my name and address as a "former P and G subscriber". I wrote a letter to Pond and Garden and told them that I didn’t appreciate their lack of communication with subscribers ….ah heck…..read for yourself.  I’ll just post below. Suffice to say that Helen Nash did sell all our names and, she will no longer be getting anymore of my money……I refuse to buy any of her books.  And I am sure that dispite the woe is me tone of Marilyn’s letter… Helen and Dave will be just fine.  It is a fact of life that when one goes in to business, he or she must be prepared to accept the outcomes.  So Helen and Dave lost some of their money….too bad, so sad.  Life is rough…but I am sure Helen is making money on her books…which she continues to sell. They promised to refund my money……I’ll let you know if that is the truth or a lie. Here’s the letter……if anyone has any questions, they can e-mail me directly as I don’t get here much! Ann Subj:  Re: (no subject) Ann – I’m sorry you feel this way.  I will get a check in the mail to you right away. I might add that the reason we didn’t notify every subscriber personally is because we don’t have the funds.  It cost us over $1000 to mail the notices that it would be delayed while we tried to obtain further financing.  It wasn’t that we "didn’t see fit"; we couldn’t. This magazine was Helen’s whole life and future.  She and her husband put from $10,000 to $15,000, sometimes more, of their own money into each issue. Helen never took one cent of pay the whole time from the magazine.  And when she went to do lectures, etc. she wouldn’t take any money.  So forget the "Helen has made quite a nice living off" part.  She and Dave mortgaged their home, cashed in their retirement, life insurance, etc.  EVERYTHING.  The bank is in the process of foreclosure as I write this.  They’re only out their dreams and their future and about $650,000. Helen and Dave have no hope of recovering any of their losses, however, Uncle Sam wants his money.  We have several thousands of dollars due in taxes that we are trying to raise money to pay.  For this reason alone, we decided to sell the mail list, but only to people who would have a similar product that our readers would be interested in.  If not, they don’t have to purchase anything. I might add – anyone who subscribed and sent me a message "do not sell or give out my name or phone number."  I took these people off the list before I released it. I must agree with you, when we first started P & G we had problems with the mail, but changed our vendor and remedied that problem.  We also had a couple of slow times trying to come up with funds to get issues out, but managed to do it.  We hadn’t yet reached the point where the subscriptions and advertising would pay the full price of producing an issue, but we finally reached the point where we were on the way to seeing daylight.  Then with the recession, some of our distributors and advertisers went out of business and others cut their budgets.  We couldn’t get new ones because they had all been forced to cut budgets and couldn’t start something new, so we tried more financing, but we were maxed.  We even went to the ultimatum of trying to sell the magazine, but everyone else was in the same position.  Nobody could take on a new business with no assets and big debts, especially in a time of recession. We never intended to "go under" or to scam anyone.  We went into this endeavor with the intentions of staying in it for life.  I didn’t tell you all this for sympathy or anything, Its just that I could see you have a totally different way of seeing what happened and it wasn’t like that at all.  I can only apologize if you are upset.  I hope you can see that if we had enough money to refund every subscriber, we could have used that money to put out the next issue. I will send you a personal check for your $35.  (P & G has no funds, and as a matter of fact, is in the negative – considerably.  So please don’t condemn us for trying to pay our taxes.) Marilyn —– Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:41 PM Marilyn: Thank you for your e-mail. I must say that I am disappointed that you and Helen did not see fit to personally notify all your Pond and Garden subscribers that the magazine was no longer. I remember when Helen was affiliated with Water Gardening Magazine and she got upset and left and tried to get those subscribers to leave WG and subscribe to her new venture.  At that time, there were lots of hard feelings.  And when Helen started her magazine, there were lots of posts in the Internet that people were not getting their magazines or that they were late. I decided in light of that to wait and see about Helen’s magazine and continue with my Water Gardening subscription. Finally, I took the plunge and decided to trust Helen and sent you an e-mail about Pond and Garden.  You replied this summer, very enthusiastically that it was a good decision on my part to become a subscriber. Imagine my shock when I found out that P&G was out of existence, not from you and Helen, but from a letter addressed to "former P & G subscribers." Gee, I wonder how that information got out?  Could it be that you and Helen have given, or, in all probability, SOLD my name and information to this other magazine?  Again, how disappointing. For these reasons, I cannot in good faith accept less than a total reimbursement of my subscription fee.  Additionally, I will no longer support ANY endeavor of Helen Nash and will be sure to tell my watergardening friends about the total lack of regard you all have exhibited towards people who trusted you, and who Helen has no doubt made quite a nice living off.  To add insult to injury, you both have shown a total lack of respect for my privacy by sharing my personal information with Aquascapes.  How dare you. I am sure that the Attorney General’s office in your state would be more than happy to launch an investigation in to this matter.  Frankly, I won’t bother contacting them unless my funds are not PROMPTLY returned to me at the following address:

Response:

I agree with Nedra! As I stated in an earlier post, I am sorry to see P & G fold. That was one of the better magazines you could subscribe to. Yes, I too am out at least a year’s subscription (I may have had a 2 year subscription.. I don’t recall as I type this note), but I have no intention of demanding my $$ back, especially from those who may have already been "taken to the cleaners". I too would have liked to have been told, in some fashion, what happened when my issue never arrived. That probably could have been handled in a better fashion, but: Why don’t we all show some humanity and cut Helen and Marilyn some slack? I thought 9-11 taught all of us a lesson in humanity, and brought us all together a bit.. I guess I may have been wrong… Helen & associates have added much to the water gardening… For that we should all thank them! It seems to me our society has degenerated into a "what’s in it for me, screw everyone else" focus. We were all born thinking the world revolves around us and our needs, and many seem to have either regressed back to that focus, or perhaps never left it! In any case posting of what should be personal email (can’t say private as really none is, as this example shows) to a newsgroup is bad form. Happy ponding, Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that when you buy into anything you take the chance that it may fold,   especially in these turbulent times.  I remember you, Ann,  from several years ago. We disagreed then and we disagree now. You haven’t chosen to take an active part in this group and only do so now to badmouth Helen. Nedra www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836 Hello everyone…. I don’t post here much but have some answers to the thread about P and G. I was really quite outraged that Helen Nash simply folded her magazine without so much as a word to the subscribers.  I too wondered how Aquascapes had gotten my name and address as a "former P and G subscriber". I wrote a letter to Pond and Garden and told them that I didn’t appreciate their lack of communication with subscribers ….ah heck…..read for yourself.  I’ll just post below. Suffice to say that Helen Nash did sell all our names and, she will no longer be getting anymore of my money……I refuse to buy any of her books. And I am sure that dispite the woe is me tone of Marilyn’s letter… Helen and Dave will be just fine.  It is a fact of life that when one goes in to business, he or she must be prepared to accept the outcomes.  So Helen and Dave lost some of their money….too bad, so sad.  Life is rough…but I am sure Helen is making money on her books…which she continues to sell. They promised to refund my money……I’ll let you know if that is the truth or a lie. Here’s the letter……if anyone has any questions, they can e-mail me directly as I don’t get here much! Ann Subj:  Re: (no subject) Ann – I’m sorry you feel this way.  I will get a check in the mail to you right away. I might add that the reason we didn’t notify every subscriber personally is because we don’t have the funds.  It cost us over $1000 to mail the notices that it would be delayed while we tried to obtain further financing.  It wasn’t that we "didn’t see fit"; we couldn’t. This magazine was Helen’s whole life and future.  She and her husband put from $10,000 to $15,000, sometimes more, of their own money into each issue. Helen never took one cent of pay the whole time from the magazine.  And when she went to do lectures, etc. she wouldn’t take any money.  So forget the "Helen has made quite a nice living off" part.  She and Dave mortgaged their home, cashed in their retirement, life insurance, etc.  EVERYTHING.  The bank is in the process of foreclosure as I write this.  They’re only out their dreams and their future and about $650,000. Helen and Dave have no hope of recovering any of their losses, however, Uncle Sam wants his money.  We have several thousands of dollars due in taxes that we are trying to raise money to pay.  For this reason alone, we decided to sell the mail list, but only to people who would have a similar product that our readers would be interested in.  If not, they don’t have to purchase anything. I might add – anyone who subscribed and sent me a message "do not sell or give out my name or phone number."  I took these people off the list before I released it. I must agree with you, when we first started P & G we had problems with the mail, but changed our vendor and remedied that problem.  We also had a couple of slow times trying to come up with funds to get issues out, but managed to do it.  We hadn’t yet reached the point where the subscriptions and advertising would pay the full price of producing an issue, but we finally reached the point where we were on the way to seeing daylight.  Then with the recession, some of our distributors and advertisers went out of business and others cut their budgets.  We couldn’t get new ones because they had all been forced to cut budgets and couldn’t start something new, so we tried more financing, but we were maxed.  We even went to the ultimatum of trying to sell the magazine, but everyone else was in the same position.  Nobody could take on a new business with no assets and big debts, especially in a time of recession. We never intended to "go under" or to scam anyone.  We went into this endeavor with the intentions of staying in it for life.  I didn’t tell you all this for sympathy or anything, Its just that I could see you have a totally different way of seeing what happened and it wasn’t like that at all.  I can only apologize if you are upset.  I hope you can see that if we had enough money to refund every subscriber, we could have used that money to put out the next issue. I will send you a personal check for your $35.  (P & G has no funds, and as a matter of fact, is in the negative – considerably.  So please don’t condemn us for trying to pay our taxes.) Marilyn —– Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:41 PM Marilyn: Thank you for your e-mail. I must say that I am disappointed that you and Helen did not see fit to personally notify all your Pond and Garden subscribers that the magazine was no longer. I remember when Helen was affiliated with Water Gardening Magazine and she got upset and left and tried to get those subscribers to leave WG and subscribe to her new venture.  At that time, there were lots of hard feelings.  And when Helen started her magazine, there were lots of posts in the Internet that people were not getting their magazines or that they were late. I decided in light of that to wait and see about Helen’s magazine and continue with my Water Gardening subscription. Finally, I took the plunge and decided to trust Helen and sent you an e-mail about Pond and Garden.  You replied this summer, very enthusiastically that it was a good decision on my part to become a subscriber. Imagine my shock when I found out that P&G was out of existence, not from you and Helen, but from a letter addressed to "former P & G subscribers." Gee, I wonder how that information got out?  Could it be that you and Helen have given, or, in all probability, SOLD my name and information to this other magazine?  Again, how disappointing. For these reasons, I cannot in good faith accept less than a total reimbursement of my subscription fee.  Additionally, I will no longer support ANY endeavor of Helen Nash and will be sure to tell my watergardening friends about the total lack of regard you all have exhibited towards people who trusted you, and who Helen has no doubt made quite a nice living off. To add insult to injury, you both have shown a total lack of respect for my privacy by sharing my personal information with Aquascapes.  How dare you. I am sure that the Attorney General’s office in your state would be more than happy to launch an investigation in to this matter.  Frankly, I won’t bother contacting them unless my funds are not PROMPTLY returned to me at the following address:

Response:

Hello everyone…. I don’t post here much but have some answers to the thread about P and G. I was really quite outraged that Helen Nash simply folded her magazine without so much as a word to the subscribers.  I too wondered how Aquascapes had gotten my name and address as a "former P and G subscriber". I wrote a letter to Pond and Garden and told them that I didn’t appreciate their lack of communication with subscribers ….ah heck…..read for yourself.  I’ll just post below. Suffice to say that Helen Nash did sell all our names and, she will no longer be getting anymore of my money……I refuse to buy any of her books.  And I am sure that dispite the woe is me tone of Marilyn’s letter… Helen and Dave will be just fine.  It is a fact of life that when one goes in to business, he or she must be prepared to accept the outcomes.  So Helen and Dave lost some of their money….too bad, so sad.  Life is rough…but I am sure Helen is making money on her books…which she continues to sell. They promised to refund my money……I’ll let you know if that is the truth or a lie. Here’s the letter……if anyone has any questions, they can e-mail me directly as I don’t get here much! Ann Subj:  Re: (no subject) Ann – I’m sorry you feel this way.  I will get a check in the mail to you right away. I might add that the reason we didn’t notify every subscriber personally is because we don’t have the funds.  It cost us over $1000 to mail the notices that it would be delayed while we tried to obtain further financing.  It wasn’t that we "didn’t see fit"; we couldn’t. This magazine was Helen’s whole life and future.  She and her husband put from $10,000 to $15,000, sometimes more, of their own money into each issue.  Helen never took one cent of pay the whole time from the magazine.  And when she went to do lectures, etc. she wouldn’t take any money.  So forget the "Helen has made quite a nice living off" part.  She and Dave mortgaged their home, cashed in their retirement, life insurance, etc.  EVERYTHING.  The bank is in the process of foreclosure as I write this.  They’re only out their dreams and their future and about $650,000.   Helen and Dave have no hope of recovering any of their losses, however, Uncle Sam wants his money.  We have several thousands of dollars due in taxes that we are trying to raise money to pay.  For this reason alone, we decided to sell the mail list, but only to people who would have a similar product that our readers would be interested in.  If not, they don’t have to purchase anything. I might add – anyone who subscribed and sent me a message "do not sell or give out my name or phone number."  I took these people off the list before I released it.   I must agree with you, when we first started P & G we had problems with the mail, but changed our vendor and remedied that problem.  We also had a couple of slow times trying to come up with funds to get issues out, but managed to do it.  We hadn’t yet reached the point where the subscriptions and advertising would pay the full price of producing an issue, but we finally reached the point where we were on the way to seeing daylight.  Then with the recession, some of our distributors and advertisers went out of business and others cut their budgets.  We couldn’t get new ones because they had all been forced to cut budgets and couldn’t start something new, so we tried more financing, but we were maxed.  We even went to the ultimatum of trying to sell the magazine, but everyone else was in the same position.  Nobody could take on a new business with no assets and big debts, especially in a time of recession. We never intended to "go under" or to scam anyone.  We went into this endeavor with the intentions of staying in it for life.  I didn’t tell you all this for sympathy or anything, Its just that I could see you have a totally different way of seeing what happened and it wasn’t like that at all.  I can only apologize if you are upset.  I hope you can see that if we had enough money to refund every subscriber, we could have used that money to put out the next issue.   I will send you a personal check for your $35.  (P & G has no funds, and as a matter of fact, is in the negative – considerably.  So please don’t condemn us for trying to pay our taxes.) Marilyn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:41 PM Marilyn: Thank you for your e-mail. I must say that I am disappointed that you and Helen did not see fit to personally notify all your Pond and Garden subscribers that the magazine was no longer. I remember when Helen was affiliated with Water Gardening Magazine and she got upset and left and tried to get those subscribers to leave WG and subscribe to her new venture.  At that time, there were lots of hard feelings.  And when Helen started her magazine, there were lots of posts in the Internet that people were not getting their magazines or that they were late. I decided in light of that to wait and see about Helen’s magazine and continue with my Water Gardening subscription. Finally, I took the plunge and decided to trust Helen and sent you an e-mail about Pond and Garden.  You replied this summer, very enthusiastically that it was a good decision on my part to become a subscriber. Imagine my shock when I found out that P&G was out of existence, not from you and Helen, but from a letter addressed to "former P & G subscribers."  Gee, I wonder how that information got out?  Could it be that you and Helen have given, or, in all probability, SOLD my name and information to this other magazine?  Again, how disappointing. For these reasons, I cannot in good faith accept less than a total reimbursement of my subscription fee.  Additionally, I will no longer support ANY endeavor of Helen Nash and will be sure to tell my watergardening friends about the total lack of regard you all have exhibited towards people who trusted you, and who Helen has no doubt made quite a nice living off.  To add insult to injury, you both have shown a total lack of respect for my privacy by sharing my personal information with Aquascapes.  How dare you. I am sure that the Attorney General’s office in your state would be more than happy to launch an investigation in to this matter.  Frankly, I won’t bother contacting them unless my funds are not PROMPTLY returned to me at the following address:

Response:

Well, when you "acquire" a magazine that is already profitable like sue and greg did, what do you expect?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg… You misunderstood……When I e-mailed about the mag, the message on the web site was not up.  But….since they posted the message, it became clear that they knew at the time they accepted my subscription that they were in serious trouble.  The only way I found out that they were folding was that I hadn’t gotten my mags and then I got the letter from Aquascapes. Interesting too is the fact thatHelen badmouthed Sue and Greg S….but guess who is still publishing a magazine? Additionally, Helen and Dave may be declaring bankruptcy but as far as I know, the business of Pond and Garden is not. Hope this clears up my post a bit. Ann

Response:

Ann: I now understand the sequence of events.. Thanks for the clarification.. Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg… You misunderstood……When I e-mailed about the mag, the message on the web site was not up.  But….since they posted the message, it became clear that they knew at the time they accepted my subscription that they were in serious trouble.  The only way I found out that they were folding was that I hadn’t gotten my mags and then I got the letter from Aquascapes. Interesting too is the fact thatHelen badmouthed Sue and Greg S….but guess who is still publishing a magazine? Additionally, Helen and Dave may be declaring bankruptcy but as far as I know, the business of Pond and Garden is not. Hope this clears up my post a bit. Ann

Response:

If that is the case, then I stand corrected! The action you describe would constitute fraud, (accepting money for a service that person(s) KNEW would not be provided WHEN they accepted your money). Legal recourse could be undertaken against the person(s) involved that could extend beyond the cost of the service you subscribed to. Federal bankruptcy protection would not apply, as this would be a civil action. I have one question.. Why did you subscribe, if the web site said they were going out of business??? (her email not withstanding). That note on the web site would have made me very concerned, and I would have at least waited to see what actually would happen! If you have that email (stating all is ok.. send us the $$) saved I would be interested in seeing it. Feel free to email me at my acsu.buffalo address. (my adelphia account is bouncing emails) Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – when a company goes bankrupt, nor are there with its business practices, UNLESS the company took your money under false pretenses (ie took it when they knew they were on the way out, Exactly!  When I subscribed, according to their web site and Marilyn’s letter, they KNEW they were going out of business.  But she hold off on obtaining new subscribers?  Nope.  Instead Helen and Marilyn sent an e-mail stating that all was well and send that money on in to us.  Unethical….in my book, you betcha. And yes, I did get a refund check….we’ll see if it bounces or not. Ann

Response:

Greg… You misunderstood……When I e-mailed about the mag, the message on the web site was not up.  But….since they posted the message, it became clear that they knew at the time they accepted my subscription that they were in serious trouble.  The only way I found out that they were folding was that I hadn’t gotten my mags and then I got the letter from Aquascapes. Interesting too is the fact thatHelen badmouthed Sue and Greg S….but guess who is still publishing a magazine?   Additionally, Helen and Dave may be declaring bankruptcy but as far as I know, the business of Pond and Garden is not.   Hope this clears up my post a bit. Ann

Response:

when a company goes bankrupt, nor are there with its business practices, UNLESS the company took your money under false pretenses (ie took it when they knew they were on the way out,

Exactly!  When I subscribed, according to their web site and Marilyn’s letter, they KNEW they were going out of business.  But she hold off on obtaining new subscribers?  Nope.  Instead Helen and Marilyn sent an e-mail stating that all was well and send that money on in to us.  Unethical….in my book, you betcha. And yes, I did get a refund check….we’ll see if it bounces or not. Ann

Response:

(Annb860) writes: Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  

And  SO should YOU when you send money to someone!!! Now go to your room and cry!!

Response:

I think in the end, the anger you seem to be holding on to will be far more costly to you than the $35 subscription. It is all in how you choose to view a situation, and my experience has been that it is beneficial to attempt to view people in the most positive light. I sincerely believe that most people have good intentions, even if their choices produce unwanted outcomes. I think this is confirmed in this case by the fact that your money was refunded, even when you had no legal means by which to collect it. After a bankruptcy, Marilyn was NOT personally responsible to refund your  money, nor was she even obligated to respond to your request. The fact that she did both, speaks volumes. You seem to have painted both her and Helen as unscrupulous thieves in your mind, but what if you tried to picture them as simply two people who’s business venture failed? While you may well disagree with her choices in handling the matter, as I do also, perhaps her motives were not as evil as you imagine. Maybe she just made a bad choice. (Very likely on the advice of her accountants and attorneys.) Since we’ll never know for sure which picture is true, it seems to me that it would be wise to choose the one that gives you a sense of peace, rather that a feeling of anger. As for 9/11 – all the more reason to let go of the little things and get on with the business of celebrating life. Just my .02 Hope it helps. — Cheers, Laura http://www.geocities.com/pinkmousedesign rec.ponds FAQ http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money. I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved. Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint. Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not. Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not. I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions. As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad. Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go. Ann

Response:

you are mean . . .  . . . and reposting e-mails is sleazy

Response:

Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money. I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint. Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not.  Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not. I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions.   As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad.  Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go. Ann    

Response:

With uncanny insight into life, the Universe, and everything, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money. I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint. Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not.  Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not. I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions.   As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad.  Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go. Ann    

To which I’d like to add a hearty, "right on!" I am not, nor was I ever a client of Helen’s but have been following the fate of the mag here online.   Bad.  Really bad. And, yes, business email, like any business correspondence not involving payments or trade secrets, may be made public, IMNSHO. Cybe R. Wizard — Unofficial "Wizard of Odds", A.H.P. Original PORG Water Wizard, R.P. Wize(ned) Wizard, A.P.F-P-Y Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

Response:

Actually the point of the matter is that I am not in the habit of spending money for a product and getting NOTHING for that money.  I work hard for my money.

I think that latter statement applies to just about everyone I know! I am sorry that some of you obviously feel that Helen is such a great person that her lack of business ethics and responsibilities should be excused…..I don’t feel that way.

I never met or even corresponded with her, so I can’t comment on her as a person. That fact that her business went bankrupt is neither a reflection on her ethics, nor necessarily her practices, as I am sure anyone with business background can confirm. I, being a non-business type, can only say that her books have added MUCH to the hobby. Furthermore, having been active in ponding for now over 20 years, her series of books is probably the best I’ve seen during that time frame that can be used to introduce newcomers into our hobby. They are written in a form just about everyone can understand. There have been other top of the line texts written, but few have offered the number and literary style she has employed. Anyone who starts a business should be aware of the risks involved.  Helen is a big girl and a business woman….she KNEW what the risks were.  But her mail makes it seem like it is everyone elses fault but her own as to why the business failed.

I think after reading the email to you, she (Marilyn) is attempting to explain to an irate customer (you)what happened. She did not send out a general notice "crying the blues", or blaming others. When you take money for a product and don’t deliever the product, that is theft.  It is a plain and simple legal issue.  The fact that Helen made no attempt to notify people that she had taken their money and had no intention of fufiling her legal obligation is just plain wrong – both from a legal standpoint and an ethical standpoint.

As with anything in life, caveat emptor. Just like she is a "big girl", so are you. You subscribed (in good faith I am sure, as did we all). She took your money and delivered you a magazine, which at some point folded (went bankrupt). When a company goes bankrupt, it may seek either chapter 11 or 7. The US legal system set that up to provide personal protection against company creditors. The subscription monies (all of ours, not just yours) were lost. As with any bankrupt company, if you want your money back, you need to stand in line with the rest of the creditors.  If there is money left, you get your % of it. It usually is not 100%, which apparently you were successful at receiving. There are usually no ethical issues when a company goes bankrupt, nor are there with its business practices, UNLESS the company took your money under false pretenses (ie took it when they knew they were on the way out, spent it on non business related items, etc, etc.). That doesn’t seem to be the case, as presented here. As far as theft, that doesn’t apply in this case either(per one of our pond club members I shared your postings with, who just so happens to practice coporate law). Would I be so upset if she had bothered to contact me?  Probably not. Would I be so upset if she hadn’t SOLD my name and personal information to another company – probably not.

Ok then those are your real issues? I think too many of you are confusing friendship with business.  You can certainly like Helen all you want- that doen’t mean you have to agree with her business practices.

Again, I have never met her, so I have no personal feelings either way. As for what 9/11 has taught us…..it has taught us amoung other things that people need to be held accountable for their actions.

If that is your main take home message, then….. As to the e-mail being printed on a public forum….too bad, so sad. Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers and for that, she doesn’t deserve to have any "privacy" in as far as her business e-mails go.

I would be very careful with statements being expressed in a public forum. Your statement "Helen deceived and stole money from her subscribers" certainly opens you up to charges of slander and/or defamation, unless you can substantiate it with facts, and that is a caution from our club lawyer! As far as copying private correspondence on a public forum, I said it is bad form, business or otherwise, as it was intended to be private. I never said it was not legal (- Cybe R Wizard) I must assume you posted this to get others to become angry, and become "squeaky wheels" so they would demand their money back as well. Why else? You have already gotten your subscription 100% refunded.. As for me, I will not kick a downed horse. Seems to me a book I once read (not written by Helen Nash, or any author I personally know by the way) said something about "forgiving our debtors"…. hmmm… (I must have read that in some water related book!) Ann

Greg

Response:

Ann You make is sound like they set this whole charade up to swindle you out of $35. You – with your referrence to Attorneys General  - infer that a criminal enterprise was afoot. Obviously you have never poured your money and soul into such an undertaking. Subscription revenues are a tiny part of the money it takes to put put a magzine – or even a newsletter – regularly. Very few publications grow to be successful ala Taunton – and they had to fold Kitchen Gardner which was a stellar publication. I guarantee you that their pain so far exceeds yours that you cannot imagine it. DAMHIKT Peter

Response:

I think that when you buy into anything you take the chance that it may fold,   especially in these turbulent times.  I remember you, Ann,  from several years ago. We disagreed then and we disagree now. You haven’t chosen to take an active part in this group and only do so now to badmouth Helen. Nedra www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone…. I don’t post here much but have some answers to the thread about P and G. I was really quite outraged that Helen Nash simply folded her magazine without so much as a word to the subscribers.  I too wondered how Aquascapes had gotten my name and address as a "former P and G subscriber". I wrote a letter to Pond and Garden and told them that I didn’t appreciate their lack of communication with subscribers ….ah heck…..read for yourself.  I’ll just post below. Suffice to say that Helen Nash did sell all our names and, she will no longer be getting anymore of my money……I refuse to buy any of her books.  And I am sure that dispite the woe is me tone of Marilyn’s letter… Helen and Dave will be just fine.  It is a fact of life that when one goes in to business, he or she must be prepared to accept the outcomes.  So Helen and Dave lost some of their money….too bad, so sad.  Life is rough…but I am sure Helen is making money on her books…which she continues to sell. They promised to refund my money……I’ll let you know if that is the truth or a lie. Here’s the letter……if anyone has any questions, they can e-mail me directly as I don’t get here much! Ann Subj:  Re: (no subject) Ann – I’m sorry you feel this way.  I will get a check in the mail to you right away. I might add that the reason we didn’t notify every subscriber personally is because we don’t have the funds.  It cost us over $1000 to mail the notices that it would be delayed while we tried to obtain further financing.  It wasn’t that we "didn’t see fit"; we couldn’t. This magazine was Helen’s whole life and future.  She and her husband put from $10,000 to $15,000, sometimes more, of their own money into each issue. Helen never took one cent of pay the whole time from the magazine.  And when she went to do lectures, etc. she wouldn’t take any money.  So forget the "Helen has made quite a nice living off" part.  She and Dave mortgaged their home, cashed in their retirement, life insurance, etc.  EVERYTHING.  The bank is in the process of foreclosure as I write this.  They’re only out their dreams and their future and about $650,000. Helen and Dave have no hope of recovering any of their losses, however, Uncle Sam wants his money.  We have several thousands of dollars due in taxes that we are trying to raise money to pay.  For this reason alone, we decided to sell the mail list, but only to people who would have a similar product that our readers would be interested in.  If not, they don’t have to purchase anything. I might add – anyone who subscribed and sent me a message "do not sell or give out my name or phone number."  I took these people off the list before I released it. I must agree with you, when we first started P & G we had problems with the mail, but changed our vendor and remedied that problem.  We also had a couple of slow times trying to come up with funds to get issues out, but managed to do it.  We hadn’t yet reached the point where the subscriptions and advertising would pay the full price of producing an issue, but we finally reached the point where we were on the way to seeing daylight.  Then with the recession, some of our distributors and advertisers went out of business and others cut their budgets.  We couldn’t get new ones because they had all been forced to cut budgets and couldn’t start something new, so we tried more financing, but we were maxed.  We even went to the ultimatum of trying to sell the magazine, but everyone else was in the same position.  Nobody could take on a new business with no assets and big debts, especially in a time of recession. We never intended to "go under" or to scam anyone.  We went into this endeavor with the intentions of staying in it for life.  I didn’t tell you all this for sympathy or anything, Its just that I could see you have a totally different way of seeing what happened and it wasn’t like that at all.  I can only apologize if you are upset.  I hope you can see that if we had enough money to refund every subscriber, we could have used that money to put out the next issue. I will send you a personal check for your $35.  (P & G has no funds, and as a matter of fact, is in the negative – considerably.  So please don’t condemn us for trying to pay our taxes.) Marilyn —– Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:41 PM Marilyn: Thank you for your e-mail. I must say that I am disappointed that you and Helen did not see fit to personally notify all your Pond and Garden subscribers that the magazine was no longer. I remember when Helen was affiliated with Water Gardening Magazine and she got upset and left and tried to get those subscribers to leave WG and subscribe to her new venture.  At that time, there were lots of hard feelings.  And when Helen started her magazine, there were lots of posts in the Internet that people were not getting their magazines or that they were late. I decided in light of that to wait and see about Helen’s magazine and continue with my Water Gardening subscription. Finally, I took the plunge and decided to trust Helen and sent you an e-mail about Pond and Garden.  You replied this summer, very enthusiastically that it was a good decision on my part to become a subscriber. Imagine my shock when I found out that P&G was out of existence, not from you and Helen, but from a letter addressed to "former P & G subscribers." Gee, I wonder how that information got out?  Could it be that you and Helen have given, or, in all probability, SOLD my name and information to this other magazine?  Again, how disappointing. For these reasons, I cannot in good faith accept less than a total reimbursement of my subscription fee.  Additionally, I will no longer support ANY endeavor of Helen Nash and will be sure to tell my watergardening friends about the total lack of regard you all have exhibited towards people who trusted you, and who Helen has no doubt made quite a nice living off.  To add insult to injury, you both have shown a total lack of respect for my privacy by sharing my personal information with Aquascapes.  How dare you. I am sure that the Attorney General’s office in your state would be more than happy to launch an investigation in to this matter.  Frankly, I won’t bother contacting them unless my funds are not PROMPTLY returned to me at the following address:

Response:

I agree with Nedra! As I stated in an earlier post, I am sorry to see P & G fold. That was one of the better magazines you could subscribe to. Yes, I too am out at least a year’s subscription (I may have had a 2 year subscription.. I don’t recall as I type this note), but I have no intention of demanding my $$ back, especially from those who may have already been "taken to the cleaners". I too would have liked to have been told, in some fashion, what happened when my issue never arrived. That probably could have been handled in a better fashion, but: Why don’t we all show some humanity and cut Helen and Marilyn some slack? I thought 9-11 taught all of us a lesson in humanity, and brought us all together a bit.. I guess I may have been wrong… Helen & associates have added much to the water gardening… For that we should all thank them! It seems to me our society has degenerated into a "what’s in it for me, screw everyone else" focus. We were all born thinking the world revolves around us and our needs, and many seem to have either regressed back to that focus, or perhaps never left it! In any case posting of what should be personal email (can’t say private as really none is, as this example shows) to a newsgroup is bad form. Happy ponding, Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that when you buy into anything you take the chance that it may fold,   especially in these turbulent times.  I remember you, Ann,  from several years ago. We disagreed then and we disagree now. You haven’t chosen to take an active part in this group and only do so now to badmouth Helen. Nedra www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836 Hello everyone…. I don’t post here much but have some answers to the thread about P and G. I was really quite outraged that Helen Nash simply folded her magazine without so much as a word to the subscribers.  I too wondered how Aquascapes had gotten my name and address as a "former P and G subscriber". I wrote a letter to Pond and Garden and told them that I didn’t appreciate their lack of communication with subscribers ….ah heck…..read for yourself.  I’ll just post below. Suffice to say that Helen Nash did sell all our names and, she will no longer be getting anymore of my money……I refuse to buy any of her books. And I am sure that dispite the woe is me tone of Marilyn’s letter… Helen and Dave will be just fine.  It is a fact of life that when one goes in to business, he or she must be prepared to accept the outcomes.  So Helen and Dave lost some of their money….too bad, so sad.  Life is rough…but I am sure Helen is making money on her books…which she continues to sell. They promised to refund my money……I’ll let you know if that is the truth or a lie. Here’s the letter……if anyone has any questions, they can e-mail me directly as I don’t get here much! Ann Subj:  Re: (no subject) Ann – I’m sorry you feel this way.  I will get a check in the mail to you right away. I might add that the reason we didn’t notify every subscriber personally is because we don’t have the funds.  It cost us over $1000 to mail the notices that it would be delayed while we tried to obtain further financing.  It wasn’t that we "didn’t see fit"; we couldn’t. This magazine was Helen’s whole life and future.  She and her husband put from $10,000 to $15,000, sometimes more, of their own money into each issue. Helen never took one cent of pay the whole time from the magazine.  And when she went to do lectures, etc. she wouldn’t take any money.  So forget the "Helen has made quite a nice living off" part.  She and Dave mortgaged their home, cashed in their retirement, life insurance, etc.  EVERYTHING.  The bank is in the process of foreclosure as I write this.  They’re only out their dreams and their future and about $650,000. Helen and Dave have no hope of recovering any of their losses, however, Uncle Sam wants his money.  We have several thousands of dollars due in taxes that we are trying to raise money to pay.  For this reason alone, we decided to sell the mail list, but only to people who would have a similar product that our readers would be interested in.  If not, they don’t have to purchase anything. I might add – anyone who subscribed and sent me a message "do not sell or give out my name or phone number."  I took these people off the list before I released it. I must agree with you, when we first started P & G we had problems with the mail, but changed our vendor and remedied that problem.  We also had a couple of slow times trying to come up with funds to get issues out, but managed to do it.  We hadn’t yet reached the point where the subscriptions and advertising would pay the full price of producing an issue, but we finally reached the point where we were on the way to seeing daylight.  Then with the recession, some of our distributors and advertisers went out of business and others cut their budgets.  We couldn’t get new ones because they had all been forced to cut budgets and couldn’t start something new, so we tried more financing, but we were maxed.  We even went to the ultimatum of trying to sell the magazine, but everyone else was in the same position.  Nobody could take on a new business with no assets and big debts, especially in a time of recession. We never intended to "go under" or to scam anyone.  We went into this endeavor with the intentions of staying in it for life.  I didn’t tell you all this for sympathy or anything, Its just that I could see you have a totally different way of seeing what happened and it wasn’t like that at all.  I can only apologize if you are upset.  I hope you can see that if we had enough money to refund every subscriber, we could have used that money to put out the next issue. I will send you a personal check for your $35.  (P & G has no funds, and as a matter of fact, is in the negative – considerably.  So please don’t condemn us for trying to pay our taxes.) Marilyn —– Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:41 PM Marilyn: Thank you for your e-mail. I must say that I am disappointed that you and Helen did not see fit to personally notify all your Pond and Garden subscribers that the magazine was no longer. I remember when Helen was affiliated with Water Gardening Magazine and she got upset and left and tried to get those subscribers to leave WG and subscribe to her new venture.  At that time, there were lots of hard feelings.  And when Helen started her magazine, there were lots of posts in the Internet that people were not getting their magazines or that they were late. I decided in light of that to wait and see about Helen’s magazine and continue with my Water Gardening subscription. Finally, I took the plunge and decided to trust Helen and sent you an e-mail about Pond and Garden.  You replied this summer, very enthusiastically that it was a good decision on my part to become a subscriber. Imagine my shock when I found out that P&G was out of existence, not from you and Helen, but from a letter addressed to "former P & G subscribers." Gee, I wonder how that information got out?  Could it be that you and Helen have given, or, in all probability, SOLD my name and information to this other magazine?  Again, how disappointing. For these reasons, I cannot in good faith accept less than a total reimbursement of my subscription fee.  Additionally, I will no longer support ANY endeavor of Helen Nash and will be sure to tell my watergardening friends about the total lack of regard you all have exhibited towards people who trusted you, and who Helen has no doubt made quite a nice living off. To add insult to injury, you both have shown a total lack of respect for my privacy by sharing my personal information with Aquascapes.  How dare you. I am sure that the Attorney General’s office in your state would be more than happy to launch an investigation in to this matter.  Frankly, I won’t bother contacting them unless my funds are not PROMPTLY returned to me at the following address:

Response:

Hello everyone…. I don’t post here much but have some answers to the thread about P and G. I was really quite outraged that Helen Nash simply folded her magazine without so much as a word to the subscribers.  I too wondered how Aquascapes had gotten my name and address as a "former P and G subscriber". I wrote a letter to Pond and Garden and told them that I didn’t appreciate their lack of communication with subscribers ….ah heck…..read for yourself.  I’ll just post below. Suffice to say that Helen Nash did sell all our names and, she will no longer be getting anymore of my money……I refuse to buy any of her books.  And I am sure that dispite the woe is me tone of Marilyn’s letter… Helen and Dave will be just fine.  It is a fact of life that when one goes in to business, he or she must be prepared to accept the outcomes.  So Helen and Dave lost some of their money….too bad, so sad.  Life is rough…but I am sure Helen is making money on her books…which she continues to sell. They promised to refund my money……I’ll let you know if that is the truth or a lie. Here’s the letter……if anyone has any questions, they can e-mail me directly as I don’t get here much! Ann Subj:  Re: (no subject) Ann – I’m sorry you feel this way.  I will get a check in the mail to you right away. I might add that the reason we didn’t notify every subscriber personally is because we don’t have the funds.  It cost us over $1000 to mail the notices that it would be delayed while we tried to obtain further financing.  It wasn’t that we "didn’t see fit"; we couldn’t. This magazine was Helen’s whole life and future.  She and her husband put from $10,000 to $15,000, sometimes more, of their own money into each issue.  Helen never took one cent of pay the whole time from the magazine.  And when she went to do lectures, etc. she wouldn’t take any money.  So forget the "Helen has made quite a nice living off" part.  She and Dave mortgaged their home, cashed in their retirement, life insurance, etc.  EVERYTHING.  The bank is in the process of foreclosure as I write this.  They’re only out their dreams and their future and about $650,000.   Helen and Dave have no hope of recovering any of their losses, however, Uncle Sam wants his money.  We have several thousands of dollars due in taxes that we are trying to raise money to pay.  For this reason alone, we decided to sell the mail list, but only to people who would have a similar product that our readers would be interested in.  If not, they don’t have to purchase anything. I might add – anyone who subscribed and sent me a message "do not sell or give out my name or phone number."  I took these people off the list before I released it.   I must agree with you, when we first started P & G we had problems with the mail, but changed our vendor and remedied that problem.  We also had a couple of slow times trying to come up with funds to get issues out, but managed to do it.  We hadn’t yet reached the point where the subscriptions and advertising would pay the full price of producing an issue, but we finally reached the point where we were on the way to seeing daylight.  Then with the recession, some of our distributors and advertisers went out of business and others cut their budgets.  We couldn’t get new ones because they had all been forced to cut budgets and couldn’t start something new, so we tried more financing, but we were maxed.  We even went to the ultimatum of trying to sell the magazine, but everyone else was in the same position.  Nobody could take on a new business with no assets and big debts, especially in a time of recession. We never intended to "go under" or to scam anyone.  We went into this endeavor with the intentions of staying in it for life.  I didn’t tell you all this for sympathy or anything, Its just that I could see you have a totally different way of seeing what happened and it wasn’t like that at all.  I can only apologize if you are upset.  I hope you can see that if we had enough money to refund every subscriber, we could have used that money to put out the next issue.   I will send you a personal check for your $35.  (P & G has no funds, and as a matter of fact, is in the negative – considerably.  So please don’t condemn us for trying to pay our taxes.) Marilyn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:41 PM Marilyn: Thank you for your e-mail. I must say that I am disappointed that you and Helen did not see fit to personally notify all your Pond and Garden subscribers that the magazine was no longer. I remember when Helen was affiliated with Water Gardening Magazine and she got upset and left and tried to get those subscribers to leave WG and subscribe to her new venture.  At that time, there were lots of hard feelings.  And when Helen started her magazine, there were lots of posts in the Internet that people were not getting their magazines or that they were late. I decided in light of that to wait and see about Helen’s magazine and continue with my Water Gardening subscription. Finally, I took the plunge and decided to trust Helen and sent you an e-mail about Pond and Garden.  You replied this summer, very enthusiastically that it was a good decision on my part to become a subscriber. Imagine my shock when I found out that P&G was out of existence, not from you and Helen, but from a letter addressed to "former P & G subscribers."  Gee, I wonder how that information got out?  Could it be that you and Helen have given, or, in all probability, SOLD my name and information to this other magazine?  Again, how disappointing. For these reasons, I cannot in good faith accept less than a total reimbursement of my subscription fee.  Additionally, I will no longer support ANY endeavor of Helen Nash and will be sure to tell my watergardening friends about the total lack of regard you all have exhibited towards people who trusted you, and who Helen has no doubt made quite a nice living off.  To add insult to injury, you both have shown a total lack of respect for my privacy by sharing my personal information with Aquascapes.  How dare you. I am sure that the Attorney General’s office in your state would be more than happy to launch an investigation in to this matter.  Frankly, I won’t bother contacting them unless my funds are not PROMPTLY returned to me at the following address:

Response:

Question:

Update on our Global Debit Card project….
If you have an entrepreneuristic bone in your body..
If you have a drop of visionary blood in your veins..
JOIN THIS. Don’t get left out. Look at it closely.
It is something that your local bank WILL NOT LIKE.
We have been looking for this product for some time.
In fact, this is another topic I have discussed with
many of you privately, for over a year now. We KNEW
this was coming. And, the early reponse is overwhelming!
On July 1, an announcement will be made that will rock
the home-based, networking, entrepreneur, financial
services, money exchange, worlds. This announcement will
name the name of the financial partner for this new opportunity. This is the company that actually issues the card. This name is one of the most (if not THE most) recognized financial names in the world. Absolute household name. Worldwide client assets of 1.6 TRILLION dollars!
To reserve a spot in NOW…
Go to http://www.globalcreditcard.net/unbeatable
and sign up for the free replicating web site.
Then, contact me and I will place you into another
database that will get you a superior position in the
group. You will receive further info via e-mail.
Warmest regards
Michelle Aldous
http://www.libertyprofit.cjb.net – Tired of recruiting, tired of selling, no experience required, no inventory – ALL you need to do is ENROL and Liberty take care of the rest
http://mlmeducationalandresources.cjb.net – Ultimate educational and promotional resource center for MLM professionals. The one website that all Network Marketers MUST gain access to.
http://totalsaturation.cjb.net – Automate your promotions by posting to 1 million daily.
http://iamgoingplatinum.cjb.net – Full FREE ISP that pays YOU to use the internet.

Response:

ACT FAST – POSITION YOURSELF NOW – GLOBAL DEBIT CARD LAUNCHES VERY SOON
* Position yourself NOW before pre launch * Product unrivaled in marketplace
* Needed by 90% Global population
* Backed by company 10x more know that Coca Cola
* Real brand recognition
* Exceptional pay plan
* Join team of top recruiter in 3 different network
  marketing companies & developer of successful
  business building and recruiting system. Can use
  tools no-one else has.
* This is MASSIVE – Isn’t it time you became a LEADER
ACT NOW – Go to
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable
Listen to the online audio presentation – it WILL blow your socks off
Warmest regards
Michelle Aldous
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable

Response:

This is an incredibly exciting opportunity we have here. Due to PRE – launch July, get in NOW for perfect positioning.
What we have on our hands is …
* A legitimate ground floor opportunity with the
financial backing of a Multi-Billion institution 10
times the size of Coca Cola.
* The product will change the way finances are dealt
with forever. 90% of the global population need this
product which is unchallenged in the marketplace
* We have the opportunity not only to capitalize on the
pre-launch, but on our upline as well. The leader of our group is a top recruiter in 3 different companies and developed a half million dollar recruiting system, which only this group will be using for free. Already over 6500 have been recruited into this group in 2 weeks.
* Think of the offers you had in the past… was it
truely global….was it internet based….and most of
all did it carry brand recognition worldwide for instant acceptance
* For the first time in HISTORY we can tap into consumer spending and banking
WELCOME TO PERFECT TIMING – Isn’t it about time you became a leader
ACT FAST – go to
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable/betterway
Warmest regards
Michelle Aldous
http://www.libertyprofit.com/?ref_id=333000574 – Tired of recruiting, tired of selling, no experience required, no inventory – ALL you need to do is ENROL and Liberty take care of the rest
http://mlmeducationalandresources.cjb.net – Ultimate educational and promotional resource center for MLM professionals. The one website that all Network Marketers MUST gain access to.
http://iamgoingplatinum.cjb.net – Full FREE ISP that pays YOU to use the internet.

Response:

NEW Global Opportunity Explodes Worldwide!
This is the first global internet based network marketing company with a REAL WORLD viable product.
You can earn money QUICKLY, GLOBALLY and keep it coming for LIFE! Click on this link and try NOT to get excited.
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable
Be on the team of a 3-time top distributor who has developed a HALF A MILLION DOLLAR online business building system. He will give you a FREE replicating site to start promoting this
program NOW. Due to PRE – LAUNCH 1 July – ACT FAST.
This site is a FREE value added service for associates sponsors organization only. He is the creator of $500,000 online business building system for network marketers called RecruitOMatic. This is a bare bones version of his system.
Our Sponsor has been the top distributor in 3 different network marketing opportunities primarily by using the Internet and will be providing information and tools you will not  get anywhere else. In addition you will ALWAYS get the straight scoop. No hype. He has an EXCELLENT position with the company. We are in HIS Power Leg.
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable
The backer is and it’s a company is 10 times more known than Coca Cola, with tons more credibility.  
As well as this opportunity it is the ONLY GLOBAL ONLINE opportunity that exists.  Others can only say they are in xx amount of countries.  This means that you can travel anywhere in the world and build this on your laptop!!  
The web site is translated into 8 languages already, with more to come. Now’s the time to become a significant leader.  
Warmest regards
Michelle Aldous
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable
http://www.libertyprofit.cjb.net – Tired of recruiting, tired of selling, no experience required, no inventory – ALL you need to do is ENROL and Liberty take care of the rest
http://mlmeducationalandresources.cjb.net – Ultimate educational and promotional resource center for MLM professionals. The one website that all Network Marketers MUST gain access to.
http://totalsaturation.cjb.net – Automate your promotions by posting to 1 million daily.
http://iamgoingplatinum.cjb.net – Full FREE ISP that pays YOU to use the internet.

Response:

The Market Potenial Is Huge
There is a HUGE gap in the market place for a legitimate GLOBAL, Internet based network marketing company with a REAL product. Up until now, there has been NONE that was available worldwide. This could be the ONE. This is a REAL product that is NEEDED by 90% of the world population. Listen to the online audio and TRY not to get excited about the HUGE market potential of this product:
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable/betterway If this gets you excited too, you can sign up for your own FREE Pre-Launch site RIGHT NOW. And then just go out and share the online audio from your site with 10 other friends. It will blow you away the response you get. It did me. Remember people buy what they WANT. And it appears people REALLY want what this program is all about. Sign up for your own FREE Pre Launch site: http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable/betterway
And for those without Internet access have them call 858-646-1446 for voice mail and fax on demand.
And if you get a chance, I highly encourage you to listen in on one of our global conference calls.
MPI GLOBAL CONFERENCE CALLS
1- 212- 461- 5860 Pin (card) 2273#
USA – EUROPE
Every Wednesday 12:00 (Noon) PST
USA – EUROPE
Every Saturday
10:00 AM PST
USA- AUSTRALIA – NEW ZEALAND JAPAN – ASIA – PACIFIC RIM
Every Saturday 6:00 PM PST
ACT NOW – go to http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable/betterway
If you would like to touch base with me, here is my contact information:
Name: Michelle Aldous
http://mlmeducationalandresources.cjb.net – Ultimate educational and promotional resource center for MLM professionals. The one website that
all Network Marketers MUST gain access to.
http://totalsaturation.cjb.net – Automate your promotions by posting to 1 million daily.
http://iamgoingplatinum.cjb.net – Full FREE ISP that pays YOU to use the internet.

Response:

PRE-LAUNCHING WORLDWIDE JULY 1ST
PHOENIX, ARIZONA U.S.A. BASED COMPANY HAS CREATED THE MOST POWERFUL AND PROFITABLE ONE CARD SOLUTION IN THE WORLD! THIS IS AN ENTREPRENEURS DREAM THAT IS CREATING THE MOST PHENOMENAL WORLDWIDE EXPLOSION NEVER SEEN BEFORE, WITH ANY PRODUCT, IN THE  DIRECT SALES INDUSTRY You’re About To Discover The Most Exciting and Built-To-Last Opportunity That Will Enable You To Earn More Money QUICKLY, GLOBALLY and Keep It Coming For The Rest Of Your Life!! THIS UNIVERSAL CARD WAS CREATED BY: THE COMPANY PRESIDENT, A FORMER OFFICER OF ONE OF THE LARGEST INTERNATIONAL BANK IN THE WORLD A FORMER SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF VISA INTERNATIONAL A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR WORLDWIDE FINANCIAL INSTITUTION
UNMATCHED CREDIBILITY AND RECOGNITION The card functions on a Certified Platform that cost over $15 million dollars,
took 6 years to create and can perform  hundreds features. Ernst and Young,
a leading International accounting firm, valued the platform at $25 million dollars.  
International Multi-Function Debit Card Available In All Countries
Carries The Logos Of: A Multi-Billion Worldwide Financial Institution That  Holds And Insures The Deposits  
The Largest Merchant Aggregating Company In The World The Three Largest ATMs Networks In The World The Largest POS Networks In The World
UNMATCHED FEATURES Anyone In the In The World Can Obtain The Card With
NO Credit Check, NO Questions and NO Interest You Can Deposit And Use An UNLIMITED Amount Of Money You Can Use It To Charge At Over 17 MILLION Point Of Sale Locations Worldwide Your Money Is Instantly Available Though The Three Largest ATMs Networks In The World Low Cost Member-To-Member Cash Online Transfer Feature Let You Tap And
Undercut The Three Trillion-Dollar Cash Transfer Industry! Unique Feature Let You Transfer Money From Your Card To Your
ACH (Automated Clearing House) Checking Account All Transfers Have Automatic Conversion In the Local Country Currency You Can Carry Any Amount Anywhere In The World It Can Be Used By Any Size Company As A Real-Time Global Direct Payroll Deposit And So Much More! UNMATCHED DEMAND 90% Of Adults In The World Cannot Obtain A Credit Card Or A Checking Account 40% Of People In The US Still Don’t Have A Credit Card 90% Of Adults In The World Cannot Obtain A Credit Card Or A Checking Account 15% Don’t Have A Checking Account 75% Of People in the US Who Have A Credit Card Are Maxed Out No Doubt, The Debit Card Market Is Substantially Larger Than The Credit Card Market Our Multi-Function Card Is HANDS DOWN, The Best Choice Of Any Debit Card,
Secure Card, Check Card Or Cash Card With A LOW PRICE Anyone In The World Can Afford! UNMATCHED PROFITS! You Can Build A Worldwide Associates’ Organization From Any Country And Earn
WEEKLY COMMISSIONS From Commissionable Business Centers Through An
Incredible Front-End 2 X Infinity  - Plus Matching Bonuses – Compensation Plan
Historically Proven To Create  Business Momentum and Large Incomes FAST! You Can Build A LIFE-LONG MONTHLY RESIDUAL INCOME  In Usage Overrides From Card Purchases, Money Transfers And All The Services The Card Offers
Used By Customers And Associates In Your Worldwide Organization,
Through The Most Lucrative Back-End Unilevel Compensation Plan A COMPANY BUILT-TO-LAST MAKING HISTORY AROUND THE WORLD The company is a stable three year old corporation that was formed   to develop and distribute worldwide  various breakthrough technologies
that represent giant advancements in global financial services, e-commerce,
telecommunications, Internet technologies and other advanced solutions.
The company has developed a powerful system of truly global connectivity and
is extremely well poised to attract and service a large International community
of customers and Associates.  
Warmest regards
Michelle Aldous

Response:

I’m excited!  THIS INFO  WILL KEEP YOU UP  ALL NIGHT.
NEW Global Opportunity Explodes Worldwide!
This is the first global internet based
network marketing company with a REAL WORLD viable
product.
You can earn money QUICKLY, GLOBALLY and keep it coming for LIFE! Click on this link and try NOT to get excited.
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable/betterway
Be on the team of a 3-time top distributor who has developed a HALF A MILLION DOLLAR online business building system. He will give you a FREE replicating site to start promoting this program NOW.
http://www.globaldebitcard.net/unbeatable/betterway
My Warmest Regards,
Michelle Aldous
Parana Marketing Proud Member of MPI Global
http://mlmeducationalandresources.cjb.net – Ultimate educational and promotional resource center for MLM professionals. The one website that all Network Marketers MUST gain access to.
http://totalsaturation.cjb.net – Automate your promotions by posting to 1 million daily.
http://iamgoingplatinum.cjb.net – Full FREE ISP that pays YOU to use the internet.

Response:

Question:

I thought some of you might enjoy a recent experience I had.         My daughter will be teaching pre-kindergarten this next year.  SWMBO and I visited her family last weekend (she lives a couple of hundred miles away), and TD (the daughter) wanted some help in getting her classroom ready – some other person had taught in the room last year and had left the room in a mess.  So she, SWMBO and I went up one afternoon to put in a couple of hours or so.  First, TD wanted the height on an adjustable table lowered.  I asked, "got a screwdriver around here?"  Of course not!!  So off I went to the maintenance guy’s closet and borrowed one.  Some time later, I had a need for a pair of pliars – Yep, same answer, so back to the maintenance guy.  A bit later, had a need for a skill knife to cut a piece of carpet. Yeah, you guessed it!         That evening, I made a trip to a nearby Lowe’s.  Purchased a small tool box, and a few basic tools and supplies – hammer, regular pliars, channel locks, screwdrivers, a skill knife, a small plastic box which I filled with several sizes of nails and brads, a glue gun, etc.  Only cost me about 60 bucks.  Went back to TD’s and presented it to her – told her if her husband or any of the three kids wanted to borrow any of the contents to say "NO!! – go get your own".  Actually, she’ll keep it in her school room.          Last evening, she called and wanted to tell me about her tool box. The latter part of the week, she had been in her schoolroom most every day working.  She heard one of the other teachers say she needed a screwdriver, so she said, "just a moment".  The next few days, several teachers had heard about "Laura’s tool box" and were wanting one of their own.         Well, I started to feel proud and a bit egotistic about the whole thing, and then the thought hit me:  TD is 43 years old – and has been married for some 20 years.  Instead of me depending upon her husband to take care of all her needs and tool/repair education, why didn’t I do this when she was in public school or when she went off to college 25 years ago. Think about it!!                                                             Regards,  Roy Hickman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I thought some of you might enjoy a recent experience I had.        My daughter will be teaching pre-kindergarten this next year.  SWMBO and I visited her family last weekend (she lives a couple of hundred miles away), and TD (the daughter) wanted some help in getting her classroom ready – some other person had taught in the room last year and had left the room in a mess.  So she, SWMBO and I went up one afternoon to put in a couple of hours or so.  First, TD wanted the height on an adjustable table lowered.  I asked, "got a screwdriver around here?"  Of course not!!  So off I went to the maintenance guy’s closet and borrowed one.  Some time later, I had a need for a pair of pliars – Yep, same answer, so back to the maintenance guy.  A bit later, had a need for a skill knife to cut a piece of carpet. Yeah, you guessed it!        That evening, I made a trip to a nearby Lowe’s.  Purchased a small tool box, and a few basic tools and supplies – hammer, regular pliars, channel locks, screwdrivers, a skill knife, a small plastic box which I filled with several sizes of nails and brads, a glue gun, etc.  Only cost me about 60 bucks.  Went back to TD’s and presented it to her – told her if her husband or any of the three kids wanted to borrow any of the contents to say "NO!! – go get your own".  Actually, she’ll keep it in her school room.         Last evening, she called and wanted to tell me about her tool box. The latter part of the week, she had been in her schoolroom most every day working.  She heard one of the other teachers say she needed a screwdriver, so she said, "just a moment".  The next few days, several teachers had heard about "Laura’s tool box" and were wanting one of their own.        Well, I started to feel proud and a bit egotistic about the whole thing, and then the thought hit me:  TD is 43 years old – and has been married for some 20 years.  Instead of me depending upon her husband to take care of all her needs and tool/repair education, why didn’t I do this when she was in public school or when she went off to college 25 years ago. Think about it!!                                                            Regards,  Roy Hickman

My really sad comment on this story is that in the District where I work your jaunt into the classroom as well as any use by your daughter of the tools which you purchased for her would have been met with a grievance from the custodial/maintenance union – which they clearly would have won – and subsequent possilble discipline against the teacher involved. Dave Hall

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought some of you might enjoy a recent experience I had.         My daughter will be teaching pre-kindergarten this next year.  SWMBO and I visited her family last weekend (she lives a couple of hundred miles away), and TD (the daughter) wanted some help in getting her classroom ready – some other person had taught in the room last year and had left the room in a mess.  So she, SWMBO and I went up one afternoon to put in a couple of hours or so.  First, TD wanted the height on an adjustable table lowered.  I asked, "got a screwdriver around here?"  Of course not!!  So off I went to the maintenance guy’s closet and borrowed one.  Some time later, I had a need for a pair of pliars – Yep, same answer, so back to the maintenance guy.  A bit later, had a need for a skill knife to cut a piece of carpet. Yeah, you guessed it!         That evening, I made a trip to a nearby Lowe’s.  Purchased a small tool box, and a few basic tools and supplies – hammer, regular pliars, channel locks, screwdrivers, a skill knife, a small plastic box which I filled with several sizes of nails and brads, a glue gun, etc.  Only cost me about 60 bucks.  Went back to TD’s and presented it to her – told her if her husband or any of the three kids wanted to borrow any of the contents to say "NO!! – go get your own".  Actually, she’ll keep it in her school room.          Last evening, she called and wanted to tell me about her tool box. The latter part of the week, she had been in her schoolroom most every day working.  She heard one of the other teachers say she needed a screwdriver, so she said, "just a moment".  The next few days, several teachers had heard about "Laura’s tool box" and were wanting one of their own.         Well, I started to feel proud and a bit egotistic about the whole thing, and then the thought hit me:  TD is 43 years old – and has been married for some 20 years.  Instead of me depending upon her husband to take care of all her needs and tool/repair education, why didn’t I do this when she was in public school or when she went off to college 25 years ago. Think about it!!                                                             Regards, Roy Hickman

Nice one, Roy! I’ve done the same thing for the significant women in my life. [A long- time girlfriend, ex-wife, present wife, step-daughter.] I had a lot of fun compiling the tool-kits, the gifts were genuinely appreciated and I also got to use the tools myself from time to time, in emergencies. And guess whose best chisels NEVER got BORROWED to open a can of paint! Cheers Before you buy.

Response:

Not to mention prosecution for bringing deadly weapons onto school property! Kevin — Don’t die wondering! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My really sad comment on this story is that in the District where I work your jaunt into the classroom as well as any use by your daughter of the tools which you purchased for her would have been met with a grievance from the custodial/maintenance union – which they clearly would have won – and subsequent possilble discipline against the teacher involved. Dave Hall

Response:

My daughter is in college and last year moved into an off-campus apartment with a couple of other girls.  My "house-warming" gift to her was a small collection of basic-survival tools.  A couple of screwdrivers, pliers, adjustable wrench, hammer and a small assortment of nails and screws. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I thought some of you might enjoy a recent experience I had.        My daughter will be teaching pre-kindergarten this next year.  SWMBO and I visited her family last weekend (she lives a couple of hundred miles away), and TD (the daughter) wanted some help in getting her classroom ready – some other person had taught in the room last year and had left the room in a mess.  So she, SWMBO and I went up one afternoon to put in a couple of hours or so.  First, TD wanted the height on an adjustable table lowered.  I asked, "got a screwdriver around here?"  Of course not!!  So off I went to the maintenance guy’s closet and borrowed one.  Some time later, I had a need for a pair of pliars – Yep, same answer, so back to the maintenance guy.  A bit later, had a need for a skill knife to cut a piece of carpet. Yeah, you guessed it!        That evening, I made a trip to a nearby Lowe’s.  Purchased a small tool box, and a few basic tools and supplies – hammer, regular pliars, channel locks, screwdrivers, a skill knife, a small plastic box which I filled with several sizes of nails and brads, a glue gun, etc.  Only cost me about 60 bucks.  Went back to TD’s and presented it to her – told her if her husband or any of the three kids wanted to borrow any of the contents to say "NO!! – go get your own".  Actually, she’ll keep it in her school room.         Last evening, she called and wanted to tell me about her tool box. The latter part of the week, she had been in her schoolroom most every day working.  She heard one of the other teachers say she needed a screwdriver, so she said, "just a moment".  The next few days, several teachers had heard about "Laura’s tool box" and were wanting one of their own.        Well, I started to feel proud and a bit egotistic about the whole thing, and then the thought hit me:  TD is 43 years old – and has been married for some 20 years.  Instead of me depending upon her husband to take care of all her needs and tool/repair education, why didn’t I do this when she was in public school or when she went off to college 25 years ago. Think about it!!                                                            Regards,  Roy Hickman

Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Still Only $9.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com  With Servers In California, Texas And Virginia – The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Response:

Nice of you two to take a dump on a refreshing story! — Daniel Willard Spirits Apprentice "It’s only my opinion!"

Not to mention prosecution for bringing deadly weapons onto school property! Kevin — Don’t die wondering!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My really sad comment on this story is that in the District where I work your jaunt into the classroom as well as any use by your daughter of the tools which you purchased for her would have been met with a grievance from the custodial/maintenance union – which they clearly would have won – and subsequent possilble discipline against the teacher involved. Dave Hall

Response:

Nice of you two to take a dump on a refreshing story!

I am sorry if this bothered you. I agree with providing children with basic tools as a good idea. I did so with both my son and daughter when they turned 16 and started driving. Basic tools included the hammer, pliers, set of SAE and metric wrenches, screwdrivers, jumper cables, etc. which would suffice for emergencies on and off the road. However, that in no way obviates the reality that in many workplaces, including a majority of school districts (such as the one in which I am currently employed and in which the maintenance department indirectly reports to me), the senerio described would get the employee in trouble. Maybe this will give second thoughts to those about to bring their toolboxes to work in a union environment. I do not agree with such work rules, but many of us, especially in our youth, are unaware of such contract rules and can get into trouble. I myself was called into the Partner-in-Charges office of the large Accounting office I used to work for a year or so into my career because I was so "stupid" as to put together a little computer cart in my office ( this was a kit that required all of a screwdriver to put together). I was told in no uncertain terms that I was to never do such things and  that the union for the 40 story office building maintenence department had filed a grievance because some custodian had walked by and seen me doing this nasty deed. They won the grievance of course. Apparently I had screwed some guy out of 4 hours of overtime for this 15 minute task. Again, I am sorry that my original comment troubled you. I tried to keep it low key. Dave Hall

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And not to mention that you pay the high taxes that pay the salary of the maintenance guy who should have been doing the job. — Larry Bailey Illegitimi non carborundum

Not to mention prosecution for bringing deadly weapons onto school property! Kevin — Don’t die wondering!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My really sad comment on this story is that in the District where I work your jaunt into the classroom as well as any use by your daughter of the tools which you purchased for her would have been met with a grievance from the custodial/maintenance union – which they clearly would have won – and subsequent possilble discipline against the teacher involved. Dave Hall

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Not to mention prosecution for bringing deadly weapons onto school

property! Not to rain on the party, but Kevin is correct here.  We had an 11 or 12 year old boy killed in Houston when a fellow classmate drove a screwdriver into his head less than a year ago.  What Roy did should be an acceptable practice for any dad to his daughter.  I don’t want to take this post to a political level, but if the kids in that classroom get access to that tool box (skill knife, screwdrivers, etc.) the sweet under-paid and under-appreciated teacher will have liability written all over her.  I say she keeps the tools in the trunk of her car and take them out on an "as-needed" basis.  Just my .03 worth!  (inflation got the extra penny!) — Jim Mc Namara Future Collectibles www.futurecollectibles.com

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Nice story and good job on helping out the school! They need all the help they can get and were ever they can get it from. And remember, it’s never to late to pass on the value of basic handywork. You just might have started TD on becoming a This Old School person, hahaha. Bernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought some of you might enjoy a recent experience I had.         My daughter will be teaching pre-kindergarten this next year. SWMBO and I visited her family last weekend (she lives a couple of hundred miles away), and TD (the daughter) wanted some help in getting her classroom ready – some other person had taught in the room last year and had left the room in a mess.  So she, SWMBO and I went up one afternoon to put in a couple of hours or so.  First, TD wanted the height on an adjustable table lowered.  I asked, "got a screwdriver around here?"  Of course not!!  So off I went to the maintenance guy’s closet and borrowed one.  Some time later, I had a need for a pair of pliars – Yep, same answer, so back to the maintenance guy.  A bit later, had a need for a skill knife to cut a piece of carpet. Yeah, you guessed it!         That evening, I made a trip to a nearby Lowe’s.  Purchased a small tool box, and a few basic tools and supplies – hammer, regular pliars, channel locks, screwdrivers, a skill knife, a small plastic box which I filled with several sizes of nails and brads, a glue gun, etc.  Only cost me about 60 bucks.  Went back to TD’s and presented it to her – told her if her husband or any of the three kids wanted to borrow any of the contents to say "NO!! – go get your own".  Actually, she’ll keep it in her school room.          Last evening, she called and wanted to tell me about her tool box. The latter part of the week, she had been in her schoolroom most every day working.  She heard one of the other teachers say she needed a screwdriver, so she said, "just a moment".  The next few days, several teachers had heard about "Laura’s tool box" and were wanting one of their own.         Well, I started to feel proud and a bit egotistic about the whole thing, and then the thought hit me:  TD is 43 years old – and has been married for some 20 years.  Instead of me depending upon her husband to take care of all her needs and tool/repair education, why didn’t I do this when she was in public school or when she went off to college 25 years ago. Think about it!!                                                             Regards,  Roy Hickman

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Apparently the school in question was not union or the maintenance man would not have loaned his tools.  The teacher would have filled out a work request and submitted it to the board and they would have written a work order to the maintenance man and he would get the things done, in time for next year. My $.03 Not inflation, it’s taxes. My father and I have had several union discussions.  He was and I’m not.  One question was inflation. Do unions cause inflation?   My answer:  A three year contract with 10% a year built-in automatically causes the industry (and every value-added process in between the raw material supplier and the consumer.) involved to raise their prices each year. Dad’s answer:  The workers are just catching up to last year’s inflation, not causing next year’s. Needless to say it was never resolved and we dropped it because of family love that might be lost.

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My wife is also a teacher. We put together a basic toolbox for her. Unfortunately, everyone in the department now knows about it, so about every 2 years we have to restock it… Loyd

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My wife is also a teacher. We put together a basic toolbox for her. Unfortunately, everyone in the department now knows about it, so about every 2 years we have to restock it…

When the Buckhorn STDN shut down, one of the guys in our Range put together a took box for me after all the good stuff had been picked over by the folks with a real use for it.  I got a set of eight Snap-On screwdrivers, a Snap-On quarter-inch socket set, about five "C" clamps, two or three pairs of dikes, three hammers (from tack to large), a variety of colors of electrician’s tape, a utility knife and a couple of boxes of blades, an electrician’s knife and scissors, three sizes of Crescent wrenches, a pair of Vise-grips, a twist of lock wire, a six-inch steel rule, a clump of cable ties, and a couple of pairs of pliers, all fitted into a snappy little metal tool box.  Since this is all NASA property, it’s available to anyone who needs it, but I’m very stern about getting things returned. I’ve filled in some of the gaps, like tiny screwdrivers, small and needlenose pliers, a tape measure (from the tool crib), lubricants for squeaky chairs and sticking locks, a set of allen wrenches, and a few other things.  Others have also contributed to it, now that there’s a central place to keep such things. This tool kit gets called upon at least once a month and usually more frequently.  When we moved into this building with modular furniture, it suddenly became even more popular as everyone customized their cubicles.  We do have a contractor who will do all the little repairs and assembling that the kit helps with, but using that service requires a work order and several signatures, as well as a wait for anything that’s not an emergency. There’s only one thing that puzzles me and that’s what the pliers with the curved jaws that don’t meet.  No one I’ve asked has been able to identify them, but current thinking is that they’re for holding cable fittings. — Mary Shafer Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA

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If the curved jaw pliers are adjustable and lined with nylon type material they may be for amphenol connectors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tool list snipped There’s only one thing that puzzles me and that’s what the pliers with the curved jaws that don’t meet.  No one I’ve asked has been able to identify them, but current thinking is that they’re for holding cable fittings. — Mary Shafer Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA

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Tool list snipped There’s only one thing that puzzles me and that’s what the pliers with the curved jaws that don’t meet.  No one I’ve asked has been able to identify them, but current thinking is that they’re for holding cable fittings. If the curved jaw pliers are adjustable and lined with nylon type material they may be for amphenol connectors.

No, solid metal, no adjustability, no lining.  I’d say the diameter of whatever they’re intended to hold is about half an inch, but the maximum opening is 0.75" and when closed the gap is 0.25".  The jaws are 1.25" long, with an ogival curve for the last 0.5, and smooth, not serrated.  The overall length of the pliers is 5.25".  There are markings, "Utica tools" and "K56305" on one side and "319-B" on the other side.  I guess I need to see if Utica has a web site and to check MSC’s site, too. — Mary Shafer Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA

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See! I knew there had to be a story here. Thanks for sharing! 8^) — Daniel Willard Spirits Apprentice "It’s only my opinion!"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nice of you two to take a dump on a refreshing story! I am sorry if this bothered you. I agree with providing children with basic tools as a good idea. I did so with both my son and daughter when they turned 16 and started driving. Basic tools included the hammer, pliers, set of SAE and metric wrenches, screwdrivers, jumper cables, etc. which would suffice for emergencies on and off the road. However, that in no way obviates the reality that in many workplaces, including a majority of school districts (such as the one in which I am currently employed and in which the maintenance department indirectly reports to me), the senerio described would get the employee in trouble. Maybe this will give second thoughts to those about to bring their toolboxes to work in a union environment. I do not agree with such work rules, but many of us, especially in our youth, are unaware of such contract rules and can get into trouble. I myself was called into the Partner-in-Charges office of the large Accounting office I used to work for a year or so into my career because I was so "stupid" as to put together a little computer cart in my office  this was a kit that required all of a screwdriver to put together). I was told in no uncertain terms that I was to never do such things and  that the union for the 40 story office building maintenence department had filed a grievance because some custodian had walked by and seen me doing this nasty deed. They won the grievance of course. Apparently I had screwed some guy out of 4 hours of overtime for this 15 minute task. Again, I am sorry that my original comment troubled you. I tried to keep it low key. Dave Hall

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Some would argue that, without the protection the union provides, the "human cost" would be even greater than the adjustment for inflation. I think "union" is just another cost passed onto the consumer.  You have a choice.  Put your money where your convictions are. Kevin — Don’t die wondering!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Apparently the school in question was not union or the maintenance man would not have loaned his tools.  The teacher would have filled out a work request and submitted it to the board and they would have written a work order to the maintenance man and he would get the things done, in time for next year. My $.03 Not inflation, it’s taxes. My father and I have had several union discussions.  He was and I’m not.  One question was inflation. Do unions cause inflation? My answer:  A three year contract with 10% a year built-in automatically causes the industry (and every value-added process in between the raw material supplier and the consumer.) involved to raise their prices each year. Dad’s answer:  The workers are just catching up to last year’s inflation, not causing next year’s. Needless to say it was never resolved and we dropped it because of family love that might be lost.

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Mary, the pliers with the curved jaws that don’t meet are probably cable connector pliers, used to tighten and remove MS style screw lock or bayonet lock type connectors.  In general they will have cushioned jaws so as not to break the surface coating, but the pads do get lost.  They save a lot of blisters and knicked knuckles.  They’re used a lot on avionics LRU’s (Line Replacable Units).                 Don – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife is also a teacher. We put together a basic toolbox for her. Unfortunately, everyone in the department now knows about it, so about every 2 years we have to restock it… When the Buckhorn STDN shut down, one of the guys in our Range put together a took box for me after all the good stuff had been picked over by the folks with a real use for it.  I got a set of eight Snap-On screwdrivers, a Snap-On quarter-inch socket set, about five "C" clamps, two or three pairs of dikes, three hammers (from tack to large), a variety of colors of electrician’s tape, a utility knife and a couple of boxes of blades, an electrician’s knife and scissors, three sizes of Crescent wrenches, a pair of Vise-grips, a twist of lock wire, a six-inch steel rule, a clump of cable ties, and a couple of pairs of pliers, all fitted into a snappy little metal tool box.  Since this is all NASA property, it’s available to anyone who needs it, but I’m very stern about getting things returned. I’ve filled in some of the gaps, like tiny screwdrivers, small and needlenose pliers, a tape measure (from the tool crib), lubricants for squeaky chairs and sticking locks, a set of allen wrenches, and a few other things.  Others have also contributed to it, now that there’s a central place to keep such things. This tool kit gets called upon at least once a month and usually more frequently.  When we moved into this building with modular furniture, it suddenly became even more popular as everyone customized their cubicles.  We do have a contractor who will do all the little repairs and assembling that the kit helps with, but using that service requires a work order and several signatures, as well as a wait for anything that’s not an emergency. There’s only one thing that puzzles me and that’s what the pliers with the curved jaws that don’t meet.  No one I’ve asked has been able to identify them, but current thinking is that they’re for holding cable fittings. — Mary Shafer Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA

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Mary, the pliers with the curved jaws that don’t meet are probably cable connector pliers, used to tighten and remove MS style screw lock or bayonet lock type connectors.  In general they will have cushioned jaws so as not to break the surface coating, but the pads do get lost.  They save a lot of blisters and knicked knuckles.  They’re used a lot on avionics LRU’s (Line Replacable Units).

I don’t think these ever had pads (I’m going to have to take these home tonight and scan them in and put them up on a Web site, so we’ll all be wondering about the same thing) but after searching all the pliers pages in the McMaster-Carr catalog, I’m now convinced they’re either connector pliers or for installing and removing domed lamp covers. Utica, now Cooper, Tool didn’t recognize the number, either. — Mary Shafer Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA

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My really sad comment on this story is that in the District where I work your jaunt into the classroom as well as any use by your daughter of the tools which you purchased for her would have been met with a grievance from the custodial/maintenance union – which they clearly would have won – and subsequent possilble discipline against the teacher involved. Dave Hall

Why don’t you drop all your crap about unions.  No one cares. Tom

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Why don’t you drop all your crap about unions.  No one cares. Tom

oooooh! Touchy. Dave Hall

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Why don’t you drop all your crap about unions.  No one cares. Tom oooooh! Touchy.

Au contraire, Tommy. People do care ‘cuz unions suck. Unions probably drive the price of homes up $50k only to give us worse workmanship and materials as a result. (unions: BTDT once only.)       The more we gripe,      *  http://www.diversify.com/stees.html the longer God makes us live. *  Graphic Design – Humorous T-shirts

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you drop all your crap about unions.  No one cares. Tom oooooh! Touchy. Au contraire, Tommy. People do care ‘cuz unions suck. Unions probably drive the price of homes up $50k only to give us worse workmanship and materials as a result. (unions: BTDT once only.)       The more we gripe,      *  http://www.diversify.com/stees.html the longer God makes us live. *  Graphic Design – Humorous T-shirts

        Well, since my wife got fired by the damn TEAMSTER’s (she worked for them in one of their offices) when she was on maternity leave to have our son, and just after buying a new house and 2 vehicles…no big deal…it only put us in the hole and struggling for 3 years before we ultimately had to file bankruptcy….so it goes without saying, I’m no fan of unions……

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After many delays I am just about ready to break ground on the new workshop. Its a 1026 sq ft free standing building with 10 ft 2 X 6 walls and scissor ceiling trusses to make it eaven higher. The idea is to use in the slab radiant heat but today I had a couple of people question if that would be sufficient. I am in the Vancouver British Columbia area so the winters are not that bad. Does anyone have any experience with radiant heating? Grizzle

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This is a popular option here in northern Alberta – I have worked in several shops with in floor heating. The only "problem" is the recovery time if you have a large overhead door open in -30

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I have no idea! Anyone know the answer to that one? Kim ?Does it give you the option of having two different files?  Most low-end accounting software, such as quicken or quickbooks will let you, maybe your i

Fabrics2U – Buy 10 patterns, get one free! Want to be on my monthly sales list? <http://members.aol.com/fabrics2u/index.html

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Has anyone used Access to do an inventory. I have been reading about the report limitations of these program. Couldn’t you just use Access so that you could design your own reports? Shawn "I’ve been Star Trekking through the Twilight Zone…" X / USA / H2 / Y6 / 2C / XHB / 0 / -X / PS / G-G / -W+ / All / M / B / R? / S / K/KC / ++E++

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Has anyone used Access to do an inventory. I have been reading about the report limitations of these program. Couldn’t you just use Access so that you could design your own reports? Shawn

That’s what I used.  I like it . Anne/NC E-mail response not expected but E-mail back delete the ".uk" at the end

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I’m thinking of installing a second one for my personal stash – can I do that? I’ve never tried to install the same program twice. I’d hate to save my personal stash to the second version and find out that the first version had lost all my shop inventory. Oh, there is also a new "sorter" in the books/magazines/chart section. It allows you to sort items any way you like. (I put hardanger in as a section so when I want a hardanger pattern, I just use the find under hardanger) Kim Fabrics2U – Buy 10 patterns, get one free! Want to be on my monthly sales list? <http://members.aol.com/fabrics2u/index.html

Does it give you the option of having two different files?  Most low-end accounting software, such as quicken or quickbooks will let you, maybe your inventory program will as well.  That would save a lot of space on your hard drive if it did! Charly

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I think that you cn install it twice using different names, eg.  my stash- store stash.  Not quite positive.  But i did have two pattern viewers, by mistake one and two. Lisa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -snip I LOVE it! I use it to track my shop inventory and don’t know what I’d do without it. I’m thinking of installing a second one for my personal stash – can I do that? I’ve never tried to install the same program twice. I’d hate to save my personal stash to the second version and find out that the first version had lost all my shop inventory. Kim

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I think that you cn install it twice using different names, eg.  my stash- store stash.  

Thanks, I had another lady say the same thing. I think I’ll give it a try. Just what I need, more hours at the computer entering stash! Kim Fabrics2U – Buy 10 patterns, get one free! Want to be on my monthly sales list? <http://members.aol.com/fabrics2u/index.html

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Has anyone used the Organized Expressions software for needleworks? Version 2.0 sounds like it would have everything you need to keep organized. I would have quite a backlog to enter but I think it would be worth it to be able to easily find that "apple" pattern when I want one.   Joyce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snipped) So, in light of DH’s astute observations, is your stash-tracking software really worth the overhead of entering your charts and supplies? -<snip

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Has anyone used the Organized Expressions software for needleworks? Version 2.0 sounds like it would have everything you need to keep or

I LOVE it! I use it to track my shop inventory and don’t know what I’d do without it. I’m thinking of installing a second one for my personal stash – can I do that? I’ve never tried to install the same program twice. I’d hate to save my personal stash to the second version and find out that the first version had lost all my shop inventory. Oh, there is also a new "sorter" in the books/magazines/chart section. It allows you to sort items any way you like. (I put hardanger in as a section so when I want a hardanger pattern, I just use the find under hardanger) Kim Fabrics2U – Buy 10 patterns, get one free! Want to be on my monthly sales list? <http://members.aol.com/fabrics2u/index.html

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I used FoxPro (a dbase program) to organize it all when I found myself buying the same leaflets again, and sometimes again!

You can also use your word processor, too.  I have about four years’ worth of magazine articles listed in Word for Windows. Each line lists the article title/content, issue, page #, and coding, all sorted according to coding.  Most everyone already has a word processor, so this saves the expenditure of purchasing more software, and saves on disk space. Sherry C

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Glad you brought this up – whenever anyone has raised the subject before I`ve thought "PLEASE – get a LIFE – just go look in the drawer!!!" LOL (whine) but Paaaat—-I have to look in the drawer, and the cupboard, and the bookcase, and that magazine holder, and the accordion file, and the bag with some of the threads in it and the thread organizer and the book my husband threw stuff in last summer and (you get the picture) Dawne, whose software, if she had it, would be much more organized than her home

LOL! The leaflet/magazine stash is *definetly* more organized than my home!  I used FoxPro (a dbase program) to organize it all when I found myself buying the same leaflets again, and sometimes again!  The mere activity of listing each chart in each magazine and leaflet by subject, designer, location (ie. which looseleaf binder it was in) helped to set them all more firmly in my mind. Adding each new one only takes a few minutes (if I don’t stop to admire my favorites, that is!).  And I do use it!  Comes in handy when I need to find a subject for a gift, or when someone on RCTN wants to know a good chart of something, or can’t remember the name of a leaflet.   Keeping track of fabric and fibers is still not worth the time…it’s easier to just look in the box of fabrics, or check the bobbins.  I have a *lot* more leaflets, magazines and books…it’s sort of a hobby in itself! Kathy H

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Glad you brought this up – whenever anyone has raised the subject before

I`ve thought "PLEASE – get a LIFE – just go look in the drawer!!!" LOL (whine) but Paaaat—-I have to look in the drawer, and the cupboard, and the bookcase, and that magazine holder, and the accordion file, and the bag with some of the threads in it and the thread organizer and the book my husband threw stuff in last summer and (you get the picture) Dawne, whose software, if she had it, would be much more organized than her home

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Ah, yes.  I wasn’t quite clear in my original post.  I still want the capability of searching by subject, description, whatever (like your "W", "B", etc.).  It’s the entering of all the supplies for each chart and tracking what supplies you currently have so you can run those nifty reports that I am doubting.  I agree that it would take tons of time to page through everything looking for a suitable chart (would be fun, though! -Heather Lott

I don’t bother to make a list of my supplies because they change as I use them.  I do keep my fabrics folded and placed in muslin bags which are labeled as to thread count.  If I want to stitch a certain chart on 28 ct fabric, I just have to look through the 28 ct. bag. It works fairly well for me. Anne/NC E-mail response not expected but E-mail back delete the ".uk" at the end

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Glad you brought this up – whenever anyone has raised the subject before I`ve thought "PLEASE – get a LIFE – just go look in the drawer!!!" LOL Pat Porter

I also agree here.  If I didn’t look through my closet of supplies every once in a while, I would bury things there forever!  The only organizing I use is the pocket inventory so I don’t buy threads or books/patterns I already have. But going through the stash and making "new" discoveries is half the fun! Greta

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(snipped) So, in light of DH’s astute observations, is your stash-tracking software really worth the overhead of entering your charts and supplies? -Heather Lott Basically, yes.  I have over twelve years of magazines and I never

<snip I have listed all my magazines (name & issue) and have every pattern in each one listed with the designer.  I gave a code to each pattern, so when I need a wedding chart I just bring up all the patterns I have under "W", for baby charts, I bring up "B", etc. Then I know just which issue of which magazine to go to and I choose my chart from those I already have.  When I get the latest issue of my subscriptions, it only takes me a couple of minutes to enter everything in it.  For me it is definitely worth it in time saved.

This is really the *only* reason I find organizing software useful. I’ve got Cross Magic, but frankly I’m going to go back to using my Stitcher’s Pocket Inventory for tracking my fibers and fabric.  I’ve found the same thing you have, Heather — I only use the reports to dream about doing stitching! — Laura (remove the moonlight to email me) WIP: "The Fairy Moon" – Mirabilia, "Harvest Moon" – Shepherd’s Bush, "Little Lambs/My ABC’s/Hush Little Baby" – JBW Designs (as a birth sampler)

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I picked up a shareware cross stitch database from the Web – but decided it looked like too much work to set up. The url is

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/modelsystems/crossmagic4win.htm Actually, CrossMagic is the "old" database program I have.  It is very slick!  But like I said, more than I really need.  I still have the version for Windows 3.1; aparently my sending in my $30 registration fee did not ensure that I got updates.  I have a new email address and mailing address now, but I was at that email/snail mail for at least two years after registering.  I think I would just set up my DB in something simpler now. -Heather Lott Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I’m of both worlds. I have Cross Magic and love it. I am only about 1/3 of the way through in entering my charts, and patterns that I have pulled out from magazines (no room to keep the whole issues), but that’s okay with me. I am entering each one completely (with supplies, etc.) and I figure by the end of the year I will be done with that plus inventory. My stash is usually in a closet, and difficult to get at with my small apt, so having it all at a database is easier for me to "leaf" through. I also like to deal with databases and logical things, so this is a great program for me. On the other hand, I have numerous books with patterns that I will browse through for ideas, designs, drools, etc. In fact, I was searching for a filet crochet pattern of grapes on a grapevine that I could make curtains from recently. I checked my cross stitch patterns thinking I could adapt one,…nothing. I searched the web for a line drawing, a pattern, anything. Still nothing. Then, I hit my bookshelf…picked up a book, leafed through and lo and behold there was my pattern! Of course, it was for a bedspread insert, but it’s easily adaptable for kitchen curtains! Anyway, I like both ways of finding things….cause I never know what will catch my interest. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I would miss the "hands on" you mentioned. I love to sit and go thro my mags. Often when I  am going thro looking for a project I have in mind, I suddenly come upon one I had forgotten all about and would like to do also. And it is the best feeling to decide to start a new project and go thro my stash to see what I already have ( good fondle time) and then see what I still need to get. Usually when I begin a list of those missing items I also begin adding to my stash for the next project in line, etc. So see what I would miss if I actually got organized! Sandra — http://www.oldhousestitchery.com Huge sale on summer charts, fabric, totes, q-snaps and more! Use my entry form to enter my free drawing, sign up for my newsletter! It’s the entering of all the supplies for each chart and tracking what supplies you currently have so you can run those nifty reports that I am doubting.  I agree that it would take tons of time to page through everything looking for a suitable chart (would be fun, though! -Heather Lott Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

– Katherine, Sunnyside, Queens, NY The moment two bubbles are united, they both vanish. A lotus blooms.                               Kijo Murakami (1865-1938)

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Glad you brought this up – whenever anyone has raised the subject before I`ve thought "PLEASE – get a LIFE – just go look in the drawer!!!" LOL Pat Porter

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I think I would miss the "hands on" you mentioned. I love to sit and go thro my mags. Often when I  am going thro looking for a project I have in mind, I suddenly come upon one I had forgotten all about and would like to do also. And it is the best feeling to decide to start a new project and go thro my stash to see what I already have ( good fondle time) and then see what I still need to get. Usually when I begin a list of those missing items I also begin adding to my stash for the next project in line, etc. So see what I would miss if I actually got organized! Sandra — http://www.oldhousestitchery.com Huge sale on summer charts, fabric, totes, q-snaps and more! Use my entry form to enter my free drawing, sign up for my newsletter! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s the entering of all the supplies for each chart and tracking what supplies you currently have so you can run those nifty reports that I am doubting.  I agree that it would take tons of time to page through everything looking for a suitable chart (would be fun, though! -Heather Lott Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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[snipped] This is not particularly user friendly as I wrote the software for myself and it doesn’t need to be but there may be others who would like to have this capability for their own uses.  I haven’t seen anything like this available for purchase so you might not want to give up. Hope this helps Carolyn Harris

I picked up a shareware cross stitch database from the Web – but decided it looked like too much work to set up. The url is http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/modelsystems/crossmagic4win.htm Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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(snipped) So, in light of DH’s astute observations, is your stash-tracking software really worth the overhead of entering your charts and supplies? -Heather Lott

Basically, yes.  I have over twelve years of magazines and I never took fewer than four or five subscriptions at a time.  That’s a lot of magazines and I never throw any away.  I frequently have baby, wedding, birthday, etc. gifts to give which sneak up on me.  With all the mags I have on hand, I rarely need to go out and buy a chart for that kind of gift.  OTOH, it takes me a day to just flip through them all hunting for the type of chart I need.  My DH set up a file for me in Access under the headings I gave him.  It took me quite a while but I have listed all my magazines (name & issue) and have every pattern in each one listed with the designer.  I gave a code to each pattern, so when I need a wedding chart I just bring up all the patterns I have under "W", for baby charts, I bring up "B", etc. Then I know just which issue of which magazine to go to and I choose my chart from those I already have.  When I get the latest issue of my subscriptions, it only takes me a couple of minutes to enter everything in it.  For me it is definitely worth it in time saved.   Anne/NC E-mail response not expected but E-mail back delete the ".uk" at the end

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snipped) So, in light of DH’s astute observations, is your stash-tracking software really worth the overhead of entering your charts and supplies? -Heather Lott Basically, yes. <snip It took me quite a while but I have listed all my magazines (name & issue) and have every pattern in each one listed with the designer.  I gave a code to each pattern, so when I need a wedding chart I just bring up all the patterns I have under "W", for baby charts, I bring up "B", etc.

Ah, yes.  I wasn’t quite clear in my original post.  I still want the capability of searching by subject, description, whatever (like your "W", "B", etc.).  It’s the entering of all the supplies for each chart and tracking what supplies you currently have so you can run those nifty reports that I am doubting.  I agree that it would take tons of time to page through everything looking for a suitable chart (would be fun, though! -Heather Lott Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I have a database that I designed for my own personal use.  It allows me to enter chart info, supplies needed, and design info.  I use the supply info to pull all the supplies for the project I am working on (it really peeves me to put all of the colors I need in numerical order in by stitching box only to find that I haven’t pulled one of the colors).  So many of the charts do not have the colors listed in order or they have J&P Coats colors listed but not Anchor and the report that I print out lists conversion number for both. This is not particularly user friendly as I wrote the software for myself and it doesn’t need to be but there may be others who would like to have this capability for their own uses.  I haven’t seen anything like this available for purchase so you might not want to give up. Hope this helps Carolyn Harris

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is your stash-tracking software really worth the overhead of entering your charts and supplies? -Heather Lott

Nicely put, Heather and hubby.  I couldn’t agree more. know where to find them.  Fibers and beads are in numerical order…  I know where to find them. Now, back to stitching. Nova A merry heart doeth good like a medicine duffer is my dog; take out the dog to reply

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So, in light of DH’s astute observations, is your stash-tracking software really worth the overhead of entering your charts and supplies?

I took a database class at the Community College and our semester long assignment was to develop a database and work with it all semester as we learned new things. I choose to use my cross stitch hobby for my database and developed a really nice one (the teacher wanted a copy since she stitches also)–got an A too. Now once in a blue moon I get back to entering things in it but I do use it when a new pattern calls for something other than DMC. I can see right away if I need the new floss. When I start to look through my stash I get sidetracked rediscovering everything, so yes, my database is worth some of the time put into it. Kathy in Maryland

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First of all, I promise this is on-topic.  You just have to wade through a bit to get there. Well, I am trying to Work From Home now that my company has moved 30 miles away from my house.  I am having a Very Difficult Time indeed, since one of my sacrifices when I married was to give up my old, beat up, but still working fabulously, treasured PC.  My husband brought his Mac to the union.  It’s great for games, but I am a Real Software Programmer–I work with Very Big Databases and Object-Oriented Programming Languages. Anyway, the Mac does not want to play with my PC at work, so I was thinking of getting a laptop.  Plus, I told DH, I can finally write that fabulous piece of cross stitch stash inventory software I’ve been wanting to write!  I’ll write it in Java, so it will run on ANY computer!  It will have a Wonderful User Interface (I also design those for a living)!  It will be Easy to Use!  It…what’s that, DH?  What do I really need it to do?  Well, my current software keeps track of all my charts, all the materials to do those charts, and all the materials I have.  Then I can print out reports!  I can see what charts I could stitch with the materials I have on hand!  DH says, "How often do you need to do that?"  Well…Um, you see, if it were midnight, and no stores were open, and I HAD to have something to work on Right Now… "You could work on one of your UFO’s, right?"  Well, yeah.  "Or pull threads for your next project?"  Well, yeah…but the software will print out a shopping list for me!  Ah…but I would still eventually have to pull the threads, and I would find out then what I needed anyway…But, my software will have a subject search!  DH says, "So all you really want is a database of your charts, who designed them, where they are, and some description so you can search them."  Well, when you put it that way….  I realized that the only reason I wanted the other features was so I could "dream" about stitching when I didn’t have time to actually stitch. So, in light of DH’s astute observations, is your stash-tracking software really worth the overhead of entering your charts and supplies? -Heather Lott PS–Sorry this was so long!! X/USA/H+++(msl)/-/-/-/1F2B/Dimension Gold "Mother" teacup, Cross My Heart "First Nativity" stocking, TW "Magical Night"/XHDR/36L/D/ex-P~/0HSQ/M/B/b/R+-/S/K/E/L/NG/W+/-/J/msl/George MacDonald/chocolate Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

…but if you hit another Toronado (or a tree) head-on, the deceleration force will separate your head from the rest of your body.  An airbag is the only thing that could save you in that circumstance.

He might not hit it head-on, though.  So we should require all vehicles to have airbags on all sides. Also, vehicles should be required to contain three days’ food supplies, because it *has* been known to happen that people got stranded and died of cold and starvation. Spending other people’s money is so much fun. — Any idiot can avoid automobile accidents that are his own fault.  It takes skill to avoid accidents that are the *other* person’s fault. ==

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So are you suggesting that we should all drive around in 4000 lb armored tanks?  You will be safe in your Toronado as long as you hit only smaller/crushable objects, but if you hit another Toronado (or a tree) head-on, the deceleration force will separate your head from the rest of your body.  An airbag is the only thing that could save you in that circumstance.

First off, there aren’t any situations in which "An air bag is the only thing that could save you", and secondly, how do you know that his ‘74 Toronado isn’t one of the many ‘74-’75 GM cars offered with Nitrogen-charged airbags? — Daniel Stern  "a 2.2T3, a 2.5, and 2 225s.  Say it FAST!" http://ursula.uoregon.edu/~dastern  <—All Things Daniel and Pizza ‘65 Canadian Valiant  ’91 Spirit R/T    and the SL6 Resource Centre Illegitimis Non Carborundum Nihil tamquam temporis momentum ultimatum incitat. Cogito ergo vroom

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How about there being a sensor on it that only engages the airbag at speeds of over 15-20mph?  This seems reasonable, and would keep them from going off in parking lots and other small accidents where they are of no use at all to someone who is bothering to wear their seatbelt(manditory in CA and many other states, and anyone who is relying on an airbag ONLY to save their lives deserves what they get for being so stupid).

I would suggest 30kph and a significantly smaller bag and lower inflation speeds.   — Eric Bin President of the Unofficial Luc Longley Internet Fan Club (Join now and get a free secret decoder ring!)

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 I’ve seen so many older cars that look like they haven’t even been in the same collision (or once in a while ANY collision) with heavilly damaged newer ones.  BTW I’m quite sure my 1974 Toronado would protect me in any collision much better than most 2700lb. cars of today, airbags or no.

So are you suggesting that we should all drive around in 4000 lb armored tanks?  You will be safe in your Toronado as long as you hit only smaller/crushable objects, but if you hit another Toronado (or a tree) head-on, the deceleration force will separate your head from the rest of your body.  An airbag is the only thing that could save you in that circumstance.

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If airbags are so ineffective, why are manufacturers and suppliers currently developing airbags to protect the torso and the head and neck in side impacts, particularly when they are not neccessarily required to by current or proposed safety standards.

Uh.. I think it might have something to do with capitalism, profits, additional avenues  to  make money, etc… The whole idea of air bags is ludicrous. An assault by proxy. They’re (Big Brother and it’s helpers, the capitalists)  going to save you by smacking you in the face with something that has enough energy to kill you!  What a scheme, if only I would have thought of it first…..

Response:

Marc writes: So what will happen when your teenage daughter is driving her car that you made her get with an airbag, and she is killed by the airbag in a parking lot fender-bender? Very unlikely unless she is a.) tiny and smaller than a 5th percentile female

Well, if you can hypothesize me with a daughter, I can hypothesize her bring the size of my sister (which is between 5′2" and 5′4", I haven’t measured her, and she’s a few thousand miles away so I can’t look) b.) unbelted

She’d be belted.  Many of the deaths came from properly belted passengers. c.) right in front of the airbag.

Where else would she be?  In the back seat driving?  I know of no car that has the driver’s airbag anywhere other than infront of the driver. Marc also writes: The problem is that they aren’t very effective in protecting properly belted occupants Bull.  Belts have limitations beyond people not wearing them.  They may not be worn correctly and even when correctly worn they still allow significant movement, particularly in high energy collisions.  Even the best lap/shoulder belt will not restrain your head and neck in a crash.  

I don’t disagree, but the airbags are designed designed for unbelted people.  If the tests were changed, the bags could be smaller and deploy slower so that they would offer the same protection to belted people and be less likely to cause injury or death. Hypothetically, Let’s each agree to ride in the driver’s seat of two late model Caprice sedans that strike pickup trucks at a 90 degree angle at an impact speed of 50 mph.  One Caprice has an airbag, one does not.  Which one do you want to ride in?

Airbag one.  Now, ask me which I’d prefer my sister to be driving.  Hint, it’s not the same one I picked. Remembering that the Caprice is, in appearence and size, the armored personnel carrier of production sedans, lets switch to Corsica/Berettas or Contour/Mystiques.  Which one do you want to ride in now?

Same. If airbags are so ineffective, why are manufacturers and suppliers currently developing airbags to protect the torso and the head and neck in side impacts, particularly when they are not neccessarily required to by current or proposed safety standards.

Those don’t slam into the heads of people with a 200+mph impact speed. They make a pillow, much like the current airbags are incorrectly assumed to be like. Marc

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<snip Why not choice for airbags? If some one doesn’t want an airbag, it will only affect him/her so why the hell do you care whether he/she wants an airbag? If by choice, you mean a disable switch, I’m with you all the way. But, if you mean that cars can be bought with our without them, remember that the buyer is not necessarily the driver or passenger. I really think the way to go is to improve the technology, not to abandon it. (I’m 5′ 1 1/2". I used to be an inch taller… =:O )

How about there being a sensor on it that only engages the airbag at speeds of over 15-20mph?  This seems reasonable, and would keep them from going off in parking lots and other small accidents where they are of no use at all to someone who is bothering to wear their seatbelt(manditory in CA and many other states, and anyone who is relying on an airbag ONLY to save their lives deserves what they get for being so stupid). At highway speeds, they do seem to offer a slight advantage to some people, but the cutoff switch should be available(like DRL’s). I personally drive around in a 20 year old Volvo(164E) and it is just as safe as most modern vehicles.  3-point seatbelts, side impact protection, and a whole slew of other features that are standard on modern vehicles. No airbag, and perfectly safe – If I am going to be killed in this car, I have to: 1:Not be wearing my seatbelt -or- 2:Hit something at 60-90mph that is bigger than me(not likely) -or- 3:Get mauled by a Semi or someone going 120mph. Relying on another gimmick instead of building stiffer, safer, better vehicles is not the right thing IMO Joe

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<snip Why not choice for airbags? If some one doesn’t want an airbag, it will only affect him/her so why the hell do you care whether he/she wants an airbag?

If by choice, you mean a disable switch, I’m with you all the way. But, if you mean that cars can be bought with our without them, remember that the buyer is not necessarily the driver or passenger. I really think the way to go is to improve the technology, not to abandon it. (I’m 5′ 1 1/2". I used to be an inch taller… =:O )

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}Bob, FWIW, I, as a short, nervous ‘(wo)man in the street’ who’s become }increasingly worried about being maimed by my airbag, found the NMA article }very compelling — UNTIL I got to the paragraph beginning ‘Insurance }premiums…’! Those last two (or three, depending on whether the line break is }a typo or not) paragraphs are a real turn-off and their callousness makes me, }for one, rethink the intent behind the first seven paragraphs, which seemed so }fine at first. Before reading that article and up to that eighth paragraph, I }was all for optional airbags. But now I wonder — what if someone who put }’cost-effectiveness’ above the lives of his/her friends and family were buying }a car? Everyone who doesn’t buy a Volvo or other "safety box" does that. There’s nothing wrong with trading cost for safety.

I agree 100% — so long as one is trading only ONE’S OWN safety.

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Marc writes: So what will happen when your teenage daughter is driving her car that you made her get with an airbag, and she is killed by the airbag in a parking lot fender-bender? Very unlikely unless she is a.) tiny and smaller than a 5th percentile female b.) unbelted  c.) right in front of the airbag.

Small people sit right in front of the airbags on the the driver’s side. A 5th percentile of the female population is about 182,000 females. Are you saying that, it’s OK, if the airbags kills them? Shouldn’t they have a choice to disable the airbags? If airbags are so ineffective, why are manufacturers and suppliers currently developing airbags to protect the torso and the head and neck in side impacts, particularly when they are not neccessarily required to by current or proposed safety standards.

Some manufacturers and suppliers just can’t wait for the slowly moving NHTSA. Side collision happens more frequently, that is why, they’re deve- loping side impact airbags. Airbags are not ineffective, I agree with you. They were developed to an average size male. Anything under that size is at risk. THE OPINIONS STATED ABOVE ARE PURELY MY OWN AND NOT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER.

That’s not necessary a bad thing Otto

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Marc writes: So what will happen when your teenage daughter is driving her car that you made her get with an airbag, and she is killed by the airbag in a parking lot fender-bender? Very unlikely unless she is a.) tiny and smaller than a 5th percentile female b.) unbelted  c.) right in front of the airbag.

Damn, for some one who is in the 5th percentile of female, I see a lot of other females my size too!!! In fact, most of the females I know are my size. Curious. And the females I see walking around at Tech are around my size.  I guess Tech must get all the short females cause their sure are a lot of them (hint, they say 5 feet and you are too short for an airbag. I happen to be 5′1"). Also, should those 5th percentile females suffer just cause they are in the minority? "Nope, sorry, we don’t care about you cause you just aren’t in the majority". Why not choice for airbags? If some one doesn’t want an airbag, it will only affect him/her so why the hell do you care whether he/she wants an airbag? Tigress — Lover of all that is Lamborghini, Defender of Porsches:     |      _,,,—,,_        Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     Homepage:http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt3220a/  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat drawn by Felix Lee                            

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The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates that airbags have deployed 782,000 times, saving 1,100 lives and killing forty-five.

As someone who has long harboured doubts about the whole concept of airbags, I would be interested to know how they have reached the conclusion of 1,100 lives saved. Were these people wearing seatbelts? If not, would their lives still have been saved if they had worn seatbelts but not had an airbag? Likewise, would the 45 deaths have occurred if seatbelts were worn and no airbags fitted? In 42 percent of the deployments, vehicle occupants suffered some degree of injury.

Caused by the airbag or the accident? At a cost of $1,000, that’s $782 million just for the airbags that were deployed. "If you include the cost of non-deployed airbags, the amount of money we’ve spent on these devices is astronomical," said Baxter. "Fifty million vehicles are equipped with airbags. Assuming an average cost of $1,000, that converts to $50 billion that we’ve spent over the past seven years to save 1,100 lives. There are more cost-effective strategies to improve highway safety."

I feel sure that more effective driver education would cost less and save more lives. Regards — Leroy Curtis

Response:

So what will happen when your teenage daughter is riding in vehicle whose owner felt airbags are not worth the extra $1000 and she is killed in a wreck?

She has a choice not to ride in that car.  If she’s under 18, you have a choice to tell her you don’t want her in a car w/o airbags.  But oh, how people seem to forget everything so quickly.  I’ve seen so many older cars that look like they haven’t even been in the same collision (or once in a while ANY collision) with heavilly damaged newer ones.  BTW I’m quite sure my 1974 Toronado would protect me in any collision much better than most 2700lb. cars of today, airbags or no.  Plus it seems that airbags have been made unnecessarilly powerful to protect unbelted drivers, who obviously don’t care about safety in the first place, at the expense of those who do.  To me this is clearly unacceptable.   Also because of this they inflate at ridiculously low speeds thereby causing injuries when no one in the car otherwise might have been. Aardwolf.

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Marc writes: So what will happen when your teenage daughter is driving her car that you made her get with an airbag, and she is killed by the airbag in a parking lot fender-bender?

Very unlikely unless she is a.) tiny and smaller than a 5th percentile female b.) unbelted  c.) right in front of the airbag. Marc also writes: The problem is that they aren’t very effective in protecting properly belted occupants

Bull.  Belts have limitations beyond people not wearing them.  They may not be worn correctly and even when correctly worn they still allow significant movement, particularly in high energy collisions.  Even the best lap/shoulder belt will not restrain your head and neck in a crash.   Hypothetically, Let’s each agree to ride in the driver’s seat of two late model Caprice sedans that strike pickup trucks at a 90 degree angle at an impact speed of 50 mph.  One Caprice has an airbag, one does not.  Which one do you want to ride in? Remembering that the Caprice is, in appearence and size, the armored personnel carrier of production sedans, lets switch to Corsica/Berettas or Contour/Mystiques.  Which one do you want to ride in now? If airbags are so ineffective, why are manufacturers and suppliers currently developing airbags to protect the torso and the head and neck in side impacts, particularly when they are not neccessarily required to by current or proposed safety standards. Otto Please pardon me for breaching etiquette by using all capital letters but: THE OPINIONS STATED ABOVE ARE PURELY MY OWN AND NOT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER.

Response:

}Bob, FWIW, I, as a short, nervous ‘(wo)man in the street’ who’s become }increasingly worried about being maimed by my airbag, found the NMA article }very compelling — UNTIL I got to the paragraph beginning ‘Insurance }premiums…’! Those last two (or three, depending on whether the line break is }a typo or not) paragraphs are a real turn-off and their callousness makes me, }for one, rethink the intent behind the first seven paragraphs, which seemed so }fine at first. Before reading that article and up to that eighth paragraph, I }was all for optional airbags. But now I wonder — what if someone who put }’cost-effectiveness’ above the lives of his/her friends and family were buying }a car?

Everyone who doesn’t buy a Volvo or other "safety box" does that. There’s nothing wrong with trading cost for safety. — "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue."

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So what will happen when your teenage daughter is riding in vehicle whose owner felt airbags are not worth the extra $1000 and she is killed in a wreck? Believe it or not my wife thinks our kids and even me are worth the $45,450,000+ each life saved cost. What value do you put on your family’s lives?

IMHO, airbags are only useful for two situations.  First, if the driver isn’t buckled up and second, if the car is involved in a high speed accident.   In Canada we have a 95 percent buckled up rate which make the first moot and the second doesn’t happen enough to make it worthwhile.  current airbags inflate in accidents over the speed of 15kph.  This is to cover for the chance that the person isn’t buckled in.  If the person was buckled in we could likely raise the threshold to 30kph and maybe even higher.  This would save thousands of dollars every year and not increase the injury rate significantly.   — Eric Bin President of the Unofficial Luc Longley Internet Fan Club (Join now and get a free secret decoder ring!)

Response:

Assuming an average cost of $1,000, that converts to $50 billion that we’ve spent over the past seven years to save 1,100 lives. There are more cost-effective strategies to improve highway safety." So what will happen when your teenage daughter is riding in vehicle whose owner felt airbags are not worth the extra $1000 and she is killed in a wreck? Believe it or not my wife thinks our kids and even me are worth the $45,450,000+ each life saved cost. What value do you put on your family’s lives?

If you are so concerned, let her know that you don’t want her riding in a seat that’s not airbag protected. So what will happen when your teenage daughter is driving her car that you made her get with an airbag, and she is killed by the airbag in a parking lot fender-bender?  Is it worth her life to have the false sense of security?  I think the fed gvt puts the price of a life at about $10 million.  I don’t remember where they came up with this, or even where I saw it, tho.  They expected airbags to be more effective. The problem is that they aren’t very effective in protecting properly belted occupants, and the seatbelt use is rising. I never have to worry about my passengers using seatbelts.  They put them on after the first corner, whether I remind them or not Marc

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| | Assuming an average cost of $1,000, that converts to $50 billion that | we’ve spent over the past seven years to save 1,100 lives. There are | more cost-effective strategies to improve highway safety." | Important if true! But Likely an exaggeration. First, if they charge an extra $1000 for air bags at the dealer (I don’t think so) that is not necessarily the cost, since the dealer is then getting more money. Second, I do not think 50 million airbags are out there. Third, this makes no accounting of any reduction in injuries. Fourth, most of those airbags are still out there, waiting to function (save or kill, depending on your viewpoint). They could still be highly cost-ineffective without being as bad as Morrow claims.

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Assuming an average cost of $1,000, that converts to $50 billion that we’ve spent over the past seven years to save 1,100 lives. There are more cost-effective strategies to improve highway safety." So what will happen when your teenage daughter is riding in vehicle whose owner felt airbags are not worth the extra $1000 and she is killed in a wreck? Believe it or not my wife thinks our kids and even me are worth the $45,450,000+ each life saved cost. What value do you put on your family’s lives? Not meant as a flame, just my .02 worth,

Alan, I’ll bet they could build a car that would protect you from just about anything. Let’s say it costs $500,000 for that car. Should that be the only car available? Would you pay $45,450,000 for a car that would make your wife and kids invincible? If not, why not? Aren’t they worth it? Would you not let your family in any car other than the Invicible Car? If our country spends $45.5 million per life, we’re going to go broke pretty fast. – Don — "If you always or never agree with me, I can’t respect you" – Don Williams

Response:

Before reading that article and up to that eighth paragraph, I was all for optional airbags. But now I wonder — what if someone who put ‘cost-effectiveness’ above the lives of his/her friends and family were buying a car?

I can certainly understand your point, none us would choose money over loved ones. The choice is not that simple in the real world however. All of us, every day, make budget based decisions that add risk to the lives of our friends/family. Large luxury cars are generally more safe than what most of us drive, but can we afford one? Some 1997 BMWs have side impact air bags, are we all going to trade up? Flying is generally more safe than driving, so do we all buy round trip tickets home for the entire family for the holidays? Do we all hire personal bodyguards? I could go on, but I think you see my point. The NMAs position was quite honest. They openly admit what most of us don’t want to say – we have to choose money over safety at some point. More to the point, we have to spend our safety budget wisely. The question becomes at what level of spending does the safety benefit start to yield diminishing returns. The NMA simply points out that statistically, airbags seem not to have yielded the safety benefit we expected based on the amount of money we spend on them. What if we spent the money somewhere else, like better Driver’s Ed? I think the NMA makes a fair and honest appraisal here. —

Response:

So what will happen when your teenage daughter is riding in vehicle whose owner felt airbags are not worth the extra $1000 and she is killed in a wreck?

My dad would probably be happy I would not be in an airbaged car since I am one of those people who are too short for an airbag. Why should I be forced to buy something that isn’t safe for me cause it might be safe for some other people? Let them buy it, I don’t want it. Tigress — Lover of all that is Lamborghini, Defender of Porsches:     |      _,,,—,,_        Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     Homepage:http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt3220a/  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat drawn by Felix Lee                            

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Bob, FWIW, I, as a short, nervous ‘(wo)man in the street’ who’s become increasingly worried about being maimed by my airbag, found the NMA article very compelling — UNTIL I got to the paragraph beginning ‘Insurance premiums…’! Those last two (or three, depending on whether the line break is a typo or not) paragraphs are a real turn-off and their callousness makes me, for one, rethink the intent behind the first seven paragraphs, which seemed so fine at first. Before reading that article and up to that eighth paragraph, I was all for optional airbags. But now I wonder — what if someone who put ‘cost-effectiveness’ above the lives of his/her friends and family were buying a car? What about employers buying cars that employees would drive? Scary thought… I think you’d win a lot more supporters if you argued for airbags that do not inflict harm, rather than arguing for how to save a bundle in exchange for a paltry thousand or so lives… This is not to argue with you or the NMA — it’s just to tell you how it sounds to one reader, and probably a pretty representative one of a large chunk of the public. Hope you and your organization take it constructively, as it’s intended. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 18, 1996 FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT James J. Baxter President 608-849-6000     NATIONAL MOTORISTS ASSOCIATION ADVOCATES AIRBAG CHOICE Dane, WI – Because children and adults are being killed and injured by airbags, the National Motorists Association (NMA) is recommending that consumers be given the option of buying or not buying airbags in a new car. Under the NMA’s proposal, a new car could be bought without an airbag and the owner would be able to turn the airbags off. Some trucks presently include an on/off switch for the passenger side airbag. The NMA proposal would allow the use of switches on all airbags in all types of vehicles. The NMA proposal would make it possible to choose the type of airbag desired, for example, one that is designed for maximum adult safety, or another that is designed for children. Departing from existing law, airbags would be optional. "It’s ironic that buyers have scores of options when buying an automobile, but they are given little choice in safety devices. We allow consumers to choose whether or not they want anti-lock brakes on their car. The choice to buy a car with or without an airbag should also be permitted," said James J. Baxter, NMA President. The proposal would require that all vehicles be airbag-compatible, even if they’re not originally equipped with airbags. "By making the most expensive part of the airbag system (the airbag/igniter assembly itself) optional, the price of a vehicle could drop as much as $1,000," said Baxter. In most cases, cars need little or no modification to add optional equipment at a later date, since the wiring harnesses and many mechanical parts are shared between models, regardless of options. If a new car is bought without an airbag and is later sold to a person who would like an airbag, "the new owner could go to a dealership and have it installed," said Baxter. Insurance premiums would also be reduced. Airbag-equipped cars have higher repair bills than cars without airbags. Insurers have found that drivers of airbag-equipped cars do not have lower claim rates. "The only deduction you get for an airbag is on the medical coverage, which is usually insignificant, saving about $10 a year," said Baxter. "At that rate, it would take a person 100 years to recover the cost of the airbag." The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates that airbags have deployed 782,000 times, saving 1,100 lives and killing forty-five. In 42 percent of the deployments, vehicle occupants suffered some degree of injury. At a cost of $1,000, that’s $782 million just for the airbags that were deployed. "If you include the cost of non-deployed airbags, the amount of money we’ve spent on these devices is astronomical," said Baxter. "Fifty million vehicles are equipped with airbags. Assuming an average cost of $1,000, that converts to $50 billion that we’ve spent over the past seven years to save 1,100 lives. There are more cost-effective strategies to improve highway safety." — Did you get a traffic ticket?  We can help. National Motorists Association              Join the NMA! http://www.motorists.com/              Sign up online.

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PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 18, 1996 FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT James J. Baxter President 608-849-6000      NATIONAL MOTORISTS ASSOCIATION ADVOCATES AIRBAG CHOICE Dane, WI – Because children and adults are being killed and injured by airbags, the National Motorists Association (NMA) is recommending that consumers be given the option of buying or not buying airbags in a new car. Under the NMA’s proposal, a new car could be bought without an airbag and the owner would be able to turn the airbags off. Some trucks presently include an on/off switch for the passenger side airbag. The NMA proposal would allow the use of switches on all airbags in all types of vehicles. The NMA proposal would make it possible to choose the type of airbag desired, for example, one that is designed for maximum adult safety, or another that is designed for children. Departing from existing law, airbags would be optional. "It’s ironic that buyers have scores of options when buying an automobile, but they are given little choice in safety devices. We allow consumers to choose whether or not they want anti-lock brakes on their car. The choice to buy a car with or without an airbag should also be permitted," said James J. Baxter, NMA President. The proposal would require that all vehicles be airbag-compatible, even if they’re not originally equipped with airbags. "By making the most expensive part of the airbag system (the airbag/igniter assembly itself) optional, the price of a vehicle could drop as much as $1,000," said Baxter. In most cases, cars need little or no modification to add optional equipment at a later date, since the wiring harnesses and many mechanical parts are shared between models, regardless of options. If a new car is bought without an airbag and is later sold to a person who would like an airbag, "the new owner could go to a dealership and have it installed," said Baxter. Insurance premiums would also be reduced. Airbag-equipped cars have higher repair bills than cars without airbags. Insurers have found that drivers of airbag-equipped cars do not have lower claim rates. "The only deduction you get for an airbag is on the medical coverage, which is usually insignificant, saving about $10 a year," said Baxter. "At that rate, it would take a person 100 years to recover the cost of the airbag." The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates that airbags have deployed 782,000 times, saving 1,100 lives and killing forty-five. In 42 percent of the deployments, vehicle occupants suffered some degree of injury. At a cost of $1,000, that’s $782 million just for the airbags that were deployed. "If you include the cost of non-deployed airbags, the amount of money we’ve spent on these devices is astronomical," said Baxter. "Fifty million vehicles are equipped with airbags. Assuming an average cost of $1,000, that converts to $50 billion that we’ve spent over the past seven years to save 1,100 lives. There are more cost-effective strategies to improve highway safety." — Did you get a traffic ticket?  We can help. National Motorists Association          Join the NMA! http://www.motorists.com/          Sign up online.

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So what will happen when your teenage daughter is riding in vehicle whose owner felt airbags are not worth the extra $1000 and she is killed in a wreck?

You will greatly regret not having trained her to wear a seat belt. — Any idiot can avoid automobile accidents that are his own fault.  It takes skill to avoid accidents that are the *other* person’s fault. ==

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Assuming an average cost of $1,000, that converts to $50 billion that we’ve spent over the past seven years to save 1,100 lives. There are more cost-effective strategies to improve highway safety."

So what will happen when your teenage daughter is riding in vehicle whose owner felt airbags are not worth the extra $1000 and she is killed in a wreck? Believe it or not my wife thinks our kids and even me are worth the $45,450,000+ each life saved cost. What value do you put on your family’s lives? Not meant as a flame, just my .02 worth, al —  Alan Grossmeier              /`-_           If it isn’t broken,  Cray Research               { .   }/       what an opportune time  A SGI Company                    /            to improve it!

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C    Why does everyone think you have to be good at math program computers?  That’s like saying you have to be good at english to do jigsaw puzzles! As  I programmer I can honestly say I use no more math to write my programs than  you guys do to read this message. I consider programing akin to mystery  solving and jigsaw puzzles doing, combined. I know what the final "picture"  should be, but it’s a mystery where all the pieces are <G C            Chris probably because of the binary stuff or god forbid those hex things. It’s an older perception that computers are having trouble breaking — but in digital land that concept is I agree from the dinosaur age…. —  * OLX 1.52 * Around this place nobody plays with a full deck!

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Sorry, I don’t have the source of the following: C    Why does everyone think you have to be good at math program computers?  That’s like saying you have to be good at english to do jigsaw puzzles! As  I programmer I can honestly say I use no more math to write my programs than  you guys do to read this message. I consider programing akin to mystery  solving and jigsaw puzzles doing, combined. I know what the final "picture"  should be, but it’s a mystery where all the pieces are <G C            Chris

I agree – I’m an electrical engineer and other than for my licensing exams I’ve used higher math (complex numbers, in this case) exactly once professionally.  Otherwise I occassionally need some tenth grade geometry or eleventh grade trig, and that’s it!  I do know some programmers do some narly statistics, and a few doing radar or navigational control that need more math, but they’re few and far between.  It amazes me that people are afraid of computers or engineering because they’re not good at math! probably because of the binary stuff or god forbid those hex things. It’s an older perception that computers are having trouble breaking — but in digital land that concept is I agree from the dinosaur age…. —

OK, I have used octal a lot –  I was reading so many core dumps at one point that in balancing my checking book, I substracted 1 from 10 and got 7!!!  But we were debugging a new operating system, not an everyday occurence.

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I missed the original article so I’m replying to this. Sorry, I don’t have the source of the following: C    Why does everyone think you have to be good at math program computers?  That’s like saying you have to be good at english to do jigsaw puzzles! As  I programmer I can honestly say I use no more math to write my programs than  you guys do to read this message. I consider programing akin to mystery  solving and jigsaw puzzles doing, combined. I know what the final "picture"  should be, but it’s a mystery where all the pieces are <G C            Chris

I have to disagree.  While it is -possible- to program without a good knowledge of math, your options are limitted, /and/ a good knowledge of math helps.  The first is the issue of what you program.  If you are writing, for example, a game, chances are the math being used is pretty limitted.  However, I work in video compression, and there is an awful lot of detailed mathematical analysis!  The reason why math helps with *all* programming is that while you aren’t directly using the math, the methods used to work mathematical problems are similar to the methods used to program.  A course in geometry is very easy for someone who can program because the main thing being taught isn’t the geometry, it’s how to do simple, small steps in a proof… very similar to writing a computer program.   Tyrie My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

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I have to disagree.  While it is -possible- to program without a good …

This is interesting, but, what does it have to do with needlepoint? Did I miss something?

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Hi Tyrie! I also missed the original article, and (as a programmer with 15 (gasp) yrs experience), I definitely agree with you on the math thing.  I write statistical software (actually, I handle the graphical output).  Anyway, have you noticed that programmers in general are very creative people? I’ve been studying (!) this for a long time, and it seems to be a necessary asset for a good programmer.                    Colleen

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: Hi Tyrie! : I also missed the original article, and (as a programmer with 15 (gasp) : yrs experience), I definitely agree with you on the math thing.  I write : statistical software (actually, I handle the graphical output).  Anyway, : have you noticed that programmers in general are very creative people? : I’ve been studying (!) this for a long time, and it seems to be a : necessary asset for a good programmer.   Colleen, I think it boils down to the fact that stitchers are "problem solvers" by nature.  Programming is just one example of "problem solving".  I’m an accountant and I find that the entire accounting process is the result of a need to solve a problem.   Getting from "A" to "B" is one of the things that we do all the time in counted cross stitch.  Planning ways to get that one last stitch out of a length of floss that doesn’t want to stretch that far…How to get into the corner of this segment to work one stitch without having floss trailing all over china and back…Problem Solving.         Deborah P.S.- Does anyone know of a more adept "Problem Solver" than women/Mothers????

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Hi Colleen – The original discussion was about other things we liked to do. There seemed to be a lots of common past-times, including jigsaw puzzles and other so-called logical/problem solving techniques. Someone (I forget who) had said something to the effect that "I’ld never make a programmer, I can do math". I had counted that math was NOT neccessary to programming. I’ve been programing form 15 years (gasp has it really been that long?) WHen I was in the "real world" I support an engineering drawing tree and (another job another place) support a shop floor, and again supporting a so-called "Human engineering" lab. None of these positions required much math. Now that I work/program from home I still don’t use that much math. My CCS program doesn’t use much math, except when I wanted figure out how to change the size of the pattern. Some semi-complicated equations, but basically it’s addition, subtration, mulitplication and division. So I guess it depends on your application as to the amount of math you need. I just don’t think that any of the talented people here should NOT try their hands at programming because they think it needs a lot of math. And, yes we are creative, aren’t we?                 Chris

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Been watching this thread and have to jump in. — In actuality I think you did use a lot of math in your programming — because math is a language and a system of thinking and problem solving and programming certainly is problem solving.  Maybe you didn’t use a lot of formal algebra and geometry or arithmetic but mathematics is not just these things. However, I agree that people shouldn’t limit themselves on trying programming because they THINK they are bad at math — more people THINK they are bad at math than really ARE bad at math — particularly women who have often been taught by our society that they can’t do math when in fact if they wanted to they easily could.   Certainly anyone who can work with the spatial relationships of design and can read complex graphs and charts is NOT bad at math. Just my $.02 — but then I teach math and computer programming and may be prejudiced about the connection.

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Been watching this thread and have to jump in. — In actuality I think you did use a lot of math in your programming — because math is a language and a system of thinking and problem solving and programming certainly is problem solving.  Maybe you didn’t use a lot of formal algebra and geometry or arithmetic but mathematics is not just these things. However, I agree that people shouldn’t limit themselves on trying programming because they THINK they are bad at math — more people THINK they are bad at math than really ARE bad at math — particularly women who have often been taught by our society that they can’t do math when in fact if they wanted to they easily could.  

I tend to agree by my own example.  When I was a kid, I was pretty darn good at math.  Once I reached the algebra level, I started doing mediocre and then quite poorly.  I then started to hate math and concentrated on the humanities for a while.  Later, I got interested in computers and decided to give math another try.  I signed up for trigonometry and got an A and enjoyed the class.  I went on into studying calculus and did very well in those classes too.  While my computer programming skills are still somewhat crappy right now, my math classes have been great.  I also have to give credit to the math instructors I had in those classes.  They were wonderful.  I realized that up until that point, I hadn’t had very good math instructors and that they were probably part of the reason I’d had such bad luck with math before.  Of course, once I got the attitude that I disliked math, I was hopeless until I managed to change that attitude; so, one’s attitude is important too.  Given the right encouragement, math is not a hopeless case for anyone.   I imagine my programming skills will follow that success eventually, even though they seem to be taking the darndest long time about it. I’m not sure about the connection between my liking math again and liking crosstitch.  I got into crosstitch because it looked interesting and I wanted a creative outlet in which I could produce something to show for all my creativity.  My other creative outlets seem more intellectual in one sense or another and I wanted to do something with which I could get my hands dirty.  (Well, not literally, but…)   Then again, my frustration with some of my computer classes could have been the main reason I was driven to try stitching and other related activities.  So perhaps there is a connection there somewhere. — Bekki Lyn _Raving Dionysian_  & Representative of the Air Element                      of NCSU’s              SOCIETY OF PAGANISM & MAGICK "Drums, guitars, and death.  They finally got it right."  – BH —

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Actually, I think programming has more to do with logic than math. On the other hand alot of advanced math is based on logic (mathematical proofs), rather than arithmetic, which is what alot of people think of when you say math.  In college I was a math major.  Our class slogan was: "I can’t add, I’m a Math major".  I think after the beginning calculus courses, I rarely dealt with numbers that were larger than 10 that we’re evenly divisable by 3,5 or 7.  Another skill that was require (which ties into needlework) was the ability to extrapolate n-dimentional spacial relationships from 2-d representations.  Alot of stitching is visualizing what the stitches will look like, the effects of color and light on the final 3-d piece.  Also pleasing pictures and color combinations usually have certain mathematical relationships. Another creative pastime that makes use of mathematical relationships is music.  When I started at Bell Labs (way back when), there weren’t alot of programmers ready made from colleges.  A surprising number were musicians who were retrained to a more lucrative (and steady) profession. — To send or not to send that is the question.  Whether it is nobler to risk the flames and arrows of outraged readers, or lurk in silence and never post inappropriately.

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P.S.- Does anyone know of a more adept "Problem Solver" than women/Mothers????

How about women/mothers/programmers ?   — Carol Bell Woman (since about age 15) Mother of 2 (4 year old & 16 month old) Computer Scientist (since 1985)

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: : Actually, I think programming has more to do with logic than math. : : On the other hand alot of advanced math is based on logic (mathematical : : proofs), rather than arithmetic, which is what alot of people think : : of when you say math.  In college I was a math major.  Our class slogan : : was: "I can’t add, I’m a Math major".  I think after the beginning : : calculus courses, I rarely dealt with numbers that were larger than : : 10 that we’re evenly divisable by 3,5 or 7. : I agree.  When I was taking math classes in school, it was only when : actual numbers were introduced into formulas that I got messed up (4+2 : does not equal 7, no matter how many times I write it that way). : A big part of my job these days is managing an ever-expanding relational : database.  Admittedly, since I have no programming training, my employers : bought a database package designed for non-programmers, but I do find : myself creating incredibly complex equations involving lots of : parentheses and plus and minus signs but no numbers whatsoever.  I get a : definite thrill when an equation actually makes the database do what I : want it to do. : Just to tie this back to needlework — every time I start a new project, I : thank my lucking stars my high-school physics teacher was adament that we : knew how to set up our own algebraic equations.  Makes it very easy for me : to figure out where to make the top-right-most-stitch so that my whole : project can be worked by counting down and to the left. OK.  I find the top-left-most-stitch and work down and to the right.  Anyway.

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: Actually, I think programming has more to do with logic than math. : On the other hand alot of advanced math is based on logic (mathematical : proofs), rather than arithmetic, which is what alot of people think : of when you say math.  In college I was a math major.  Our class slogan : was: "I can’t add, I’m a Math major".  I think after the beginning : calculus courses, I rarely dealt with numbers that were larger than : 10 that we’re evenly divisable by 3,5 or 7. I agree.  When I was taking math classes in school, it was only when actual numbers were introduced into formulas that I got messed up (4+2 does not equal 7, no matter how many times I write it that way). A big part of my job these days is managing an ever-expanding relational database.  Admittedly, since I have no programming training, my employers bought a database package designed for non-programmers, but I do find myself creating incredibly complex equations involving lots of parentheses and plus and minus signs but no numbers whatsoever.  I get a definite thrill when an equation actually makes the database do what I want it to do. Just to tie this back to needlework — every time I start a new project, I thank my lucking stars my high-school physics teacher was adament that we knew how to set up our own algebraic equations.  Makes it very easy for me to figure out where to make the top-right-most-stitch so that my whole project can be worked by counting down and to the left.

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Question:

Hello, everyone.  Time to de-lurk and say that I just ordered from Wayside:  Gruss an Aachen, Sir Thomas Lipton, The Herbalist, Fisherman’s Friend, and Gertrude Jekyll.  Yay!  But feel extremely daring esp. with Gruss an Aachen & Gertrude Jekyll because they have so many petals and are not rugosa types…

I’ve had two hard-working Gruss an Aachens for ten years, albeit in Los Angeles (midtown), and they’re eminently capable of taking care of themselves; terrific bloomers, etc. Despite warnings, I also ordered some roses from Wayside, deciding that my past history with them (I ordered regularly over ten years ago, and they were terrific), plus their selection of large-caned bare root plants, was worth the gamble. I haven’t seen evidence of moasic yet, and the plants (two Nathalie Nypels, one each Reine des Violettes, The Prince, and Rose de Rescht) came well packed, moist, fresh, and hearty. They’ve been budding out beautifully, despite one devastating hot spell (in the 90’s) and weeks of torrential rain. Time will tell. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I sympathize with plight of the benighted consumer, fool enough to wander into Needless Markup, as an ex-Texan co-worker of mine once called it… gives new meaning to the nickname.  You’ll see, below, IF you’re curious about something non-rosy!  Jeri Here is a true story from Donna Edley, this came as a photocopy of an email from my girlfriend, Stacia’s work and it was too good to resist. It is being typed word for word as I received it (with typos too). My daughter and I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe….

[Story of outrageously-priced cookie recipe deleted for brevity]. Just for general information—despite the story’s insistence that it’s telling the truth—this is an oft-repeated urban legend which surfaces in various forms (there’s a variant involving Mrs. Field’s cookies, with virtually the same plot lines, and I think the original story involved a so-called "red-velvet cake" from the "Waldorf Hotel"). Interested parties may read further urban legends in alt.folklore.urban, or may request a FAQ from those people for more extensive clarification. — "When you play the game of life/You’ve got trouble, you’ve got strife…."

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Hello, everyone.  Time to de-lurk and say that I just ordered from Wayside:  Gruss an Aachen, Sir Thomas Lipton, The Herbalist, Fisherman’s Friend, and Gertrude Jekyll.  Yay!  But feel extremely daring esp. with Gruss an Aachen & Gertrude Jekyll because they have so many petals and are not rugosa types… Seattle summers are not necessarily a rose-lover’s helper!  And I’m afraid of chemicals, although do manage to talk myself into it once or twice a year… will be sure to put lots of compost etc. in the new holes and fertilize a-plenty to make up for that… It’s been very helpful reading everyone’s advice!  Many thanks! Meanwhile, here is the push that got me out of the shadows… passing it along as a good cause (especially if you bake)  =) I sympathize with plight of the benighted consumer, fool enough to wander into Needless Markup, as an ex-Texan co-worker of mine once called it… gives new meaning to the nickname.  You’ll see, below, IF you’re curious about something non-rosy!  Jeri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is a true story from Donna Edley, this came as a photocopy of an email from my girlfriend, Stacia’s work and it was too good to resist. It is being typed word for word as I received it (with typos too). My daughter and I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert.  Because our family are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie".  It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and they said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not".  Well, I said, would you let me buy the receipe?  With a cute smile, she said, "yes".  I asked how much, and she responded, "Two fifty".  I said with approval, just add it to my tab. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00.  I looked again and I remembered I had only spend $9.95 for the two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf.  As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie recipe – $250.00."  Boy, was I upset!!  I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "tow-fifty" and I did not realize she meant $250.00 for a cookie recipe.  I asked them to take back the recipe and reduce my bill and they said they were sorry, but because all the recipes were this expensive so not just everyone could duplicate any of our bakery recipes… the bill would stand.  I waited, thinking of how I could get even or even try and get any of my money back. [I first] said, "okay, you folks got my @250.00 and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun".  I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover will have a $250.00 cookie receipe from Neiman-Marcus for nothing.  She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this".  I said "I’m sorry but this is the only way I feel I could get even, and I will". So, here it is, and please pass it to someone else or run a few copies…I paid for it; now you can have it for free. (Recipe may be halved.): 2 cups butter                   4 cups flour 2 tsp baking soda               2 cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal**        24oz chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar              1 tsp sald 1 8oz Hershey bar (grated)      4 eggs 2 tsp baking powder             2 cups chopped nuts (your choice) 2 tsp vanilla Cream the butter and both sugars.  Add eggs and vanilla; mix together w. flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder and baking soda.  Add chocolate chips, Hershey bar and nuts. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet.  Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees.  Makes 112 cookies. ** measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. That’s it.  Please, pass it along to everyone you know, single people, mailing lists, etc.

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 Hello, everyone.  Time to de-lurk and say that I just ordered from  Wayside:  Gruss an Aachen, Sir Thomas Lipton, The Herbalist, Fisherman’s  Friend, and Gertrude Jekyll.  Yay!  But feel extremely daring esp. with  Gruss an Aachen & Gertrude Jekyll because they have so many petals and are  not rugosa types… Seattle summers are not necessarily a rose-lover’s  helper!  

"Gruss an Aachen" and "Gertrude Jekyll" should do just fine.  Watch out for Gert, though. She can grow seven feet tall and get a little leggy! Unlike "Gruss an Aachen", "Gertrude Jekyll" is stingy with rebloom in our Laurelhurst garden. (Others in different climates have had this same complaint.)  Nevertheless, the flowers are beautiful when they do come — one of my wife’s favorites. S. Andrew Schulman Watching the buds swell in Seattle, WA (USDA Zone 8, Sunset Zone 5)

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