Question:

Thank you Preston.  That is good advice.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, I am an Oregon resident planning to work in the Portland area. This year I will be finishing up earning all the necessary credits in order to sit for the CPA exam.  The job I am currently in is a typical accounting clerk position at a small business.  My plan was to begin looking into public firms once I have earned all of my credits.  Unfortunately, there are many big changes going at my current job and new "professionals" are being hired in other departments.  Due to this, it looks as though my position may be given to someone else with higher seniority.  This is going to leave me without a job.  I feel I might as well start looking into public firms now. —Will a public firm hire someone even if they are not yet a CPA? Of course, and you should begin looking soon so that you can get some valuable experience under your belt.  Tax season just ended, so let things calm down for a month or so, and then begin actively searching. The summer is a good hiring time for CPA firms.  In the meantime, start working on your resume and cover letter.    I will be obtaining my CPA license in 2005 (I plan on enrolling in Becker-Conviser to prepare) Remember, you have to pass the exam and complete the required experience time before you qualify for a license.    I plan to finish school during evenings / weekends / internet throughout 2004 Do you already have your accounting degree completed? —What position will they be given without a CPA license? If you already have your accounting degree you could be hired as a staff accountant doing write-up, tax, or audit.  Even if you don’t have your degree completed yet, you could do bookkeeping. —What is the best way to approach a public firm as to inquire about employment? If you have any contacts that could forward your resume or help you get an interview with a firm, try those options first.  If not, I strongly recommend sending an unsolicited resume with a strong cover letter to the 10 to 15 largest firms in your area.  With a little research, you can find the names and addresses of these firms.  Is there a "Book of Lists" for the Portland area?  This publication lists firms of different industries by size.  Its a great resource for job searching.  Mention in your cover letter for them to please keep your resume on file for reference when they are considering staffing needs in the future.  Firms would really prefer to not have to advertise open positions, so they will usually give the resumes already in-house an interview opportunity first. —Should I contact the Human Resources Dept? Send your cover letter and resume to the attention of the Personnel Manager. —Should I try to arrange an office visit? If they are interested in meeting you after reading your cover letter and resume, they will call you. —I’m assuming in-depth research of the firm should be done before hand? Yes, this helps. I apologize for the lenght of this post but I currently have a lot of questions and I would greatly appreciate any advice or informtion. Thanks Good luck! Preston Singleton, CPA

Response:

Hello all, I am an Oregon resident planning to work in the Portland area. This year I will be finishing up earning all the necessary credits in order to sit for the CPA exam.  The job I am currently in is a typical accounting clerk position at a small business.  My plan was to begin looking into public firms once I have earned all of my credits.  Unfortunately, there are many big changes going at my current job and new "professionals" are being hired in other departments.  Due to this, it looks as though my position may be given to someone else with higher seniority.  This is going to leave me without a job.  I feel I might as well start looking into public firms now. —Will a public firm hire someone even if they are not yet a CPA?

Of course, and you should begin looking soon so that you can get some valuable experience under your belt.  Tax season just ended, so let things calm down for a month or so, and then begin actively searching. The summer is a good hiring time for CPA firms.  In the meantime, start working on your resume and cover letter.    I will be obtaining my CPA license in 2005 (I plan on enrolling in Becker-Conviser to prepare)

Remember, you have to pass the exam and complete the required experience time before you qualify for a license.      I plan to finish school during evenings / weekends / internet throughout 2004

Do you already have your accounting degree completed? —What position will they be given without a CPA license?

If you already have your accounting degree you could be hired as a staff accountant doing write-up, tax, or audit.  Even if you don’t have your degree completed yet, you could do bookkeeping. —What is the best way to approach a public firm as to inquire about employment?

If you have any contacts that could forward your resume or help you get an interview with a firm, try those options first.  If not, I strongly recommend sending an unsolicited resume with a strong cover letter to the 10 to 15 largest firms in your area.  With a little research, you can find the names and addresses of these firms.  Is there a "Book of Lists" for the Portland area?  This publication lists firms of different industries by size.  Its a great resource for job searching.  Mention in your cover letter for them to please keep your resume on file for reference when they are considering staffing needs in the future.  Firms would really prefer to not have to advertise open positions, so they will usually give the resumes already in-house an interview opportunity first. —Should I contact the Human Resources Dept?

Send your cover letter and resume to the attention of the Personnel Manager. —Should I try to arrange an office visit?

If they are interested in meeting you after reading your cover letter and resume, they will call you. —I’m assuming in-depth research of the firm should be done before hand?

Yes, this helps. I apologize for the lenght of this post but I currently have a lot of questions and I would greatly appreciate any advice or informtion. Thanks

Good luck! Preston Singleton, CPA

Response:

Hello all, I am an Oregon resident planning to work in the Portland area. This year I will be finishing up earning all the necessary credits in order to sit for the CPA exam.  The job I am currently in is a typical accounting clerk position at a small business.  My plan was to begin looking into public firms once I have earned all of my credits.  Unfortunately, there are many big changes going at my current job and new "professionals" are being hired in other departments.  Due to this, it looks as though my position may be given to someone else with higher seniority.  This is going to leave me without a job.  I feel I might as well start looking into public firms now. —Will a public firm hire someone even if they are not yet a CPA?     I will be obtaining my CPA license in 2005 (I plan on enrolling in Becker-Conviser to prepare)     I plan to finish school during evenings / weekends / internet throughout 2004 —What position will they be given without a CPA license? —What is the best way to approach a public firm as to inquire about employment? —Should I contact the Human Resources Dept? —Should I try to arrange an office visit? —I’m assuming in-depth research of the firm should be done before hand? I apologize for the lenght of this post but I currently have a lot of questions and I would greatly appreciate any advice or informtion. Thanks

Response:

Question:

Lap dancing didn’t help finance my PhD but a $6 investment did.  Also, we have saying in Ireland, "before you make up your mind..open it". But I guess they don’t teach you that in ‘counting school’ do they !!

No, but in elementary school they taught us punctuation. In college they taught me European punctuation, so don’t even go there. What is your "PhD" in? A

Response:

Can I play with your tits for free? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

It’s still illegal, even if you did get a few bucks.

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised It’s still illegal, even if you did get a few bucks.

That’s why shortly after the postal inspector comes-a-knocking, the IRS isn’t far behind. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.

And if you believe that i’ve got a bridge in Arizona to sell you.l "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds another young boy to victimize."                          referring to Justin                          Timberlake To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Peddle your crap somewhere else. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

your post office box will not be getting my $5 !! I am studying Accounting but do not understand your post.  We haven’t got to the chapter on pyramid schemes yet, so perhaps that explains my lack of understanding. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH.

… read more »

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

its till a scam and you are still a scifosa

Response:

I am studying Accounting but do not understand your post.  We haven’t got to the chapter on pyramid schemes yet, so perhaps that explains my lack of understanding. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better the response will be. ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S.

Response:

Lap dancing didn’t help finance my PhD but a $6 investment did.  Also, we have saying in Ireland, "before you make up your mind..open it". But I guess they don’t teach you that in ‘counting school’ do they !!

Response:

| 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? | | I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I | would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL

It’s not.  It’s called a pyramid scheme and is illegal. | 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada | 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada | 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland

Postage to Canada twice, postage to Ireland.  More than if they went to the US. | All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH | you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 | Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws.

Despite this it is still illegal in the US. | PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the | honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully | adhering to the directions.

And it is successful becuase in the words of someone famous there is a sucker born every minute. | NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, | either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. | This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service.

Yeah. That service is called fraud. | Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again…

And if you believe they’re going to declare this income i’ve got a bridge in Arizona to sell you. "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds another young boy to victimize."                          referring to Justin                          Timberlake To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

tessa stick with lap dancing

Response:

Even a newbie accountant will recognise this as the scam it really is. Ken Russell

| Make Money Fast and Legally | Amazing Cash Flow Program | AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM | | THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! | | THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the | directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! | | Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like | you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you | could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial | investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must | be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It | said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and | addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very | short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the | bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 | newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and | that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though | the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to | be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. | | 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? | | I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I | would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to | try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the | details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal | business. | | 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? | | I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY | LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This | clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing | list. | | 3. IS IT RIGHT? | | Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT | of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, | having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six | $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I | did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was | shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another | thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made | between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total | of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still | growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just | over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 | and 6 stamps!!! | | Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get | the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you | follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH | than you thought possible by doing something so easy! | | IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not | illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! | | PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or | more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful | because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please | continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You | will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your | product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. | | Here are the 4 easy steps to success: | | STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each | piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your | name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US | $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the | bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). | Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should | now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the | above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 | Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is | creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a | legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a | little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it | all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) | and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to | the following addresses: | | | #1) J.E. Grey | 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada | | #2) R. Hanson | 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada | | #3) Roy Wiley | p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. | | #4) J. Granger | p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 | | #5) Starr Luu | 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 | | #6) T.N. Meagher | 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland | | Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the | list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 | becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. | | STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as | close to original as | possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. | All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH | you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 | Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these | steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, | and again. | | PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the | honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully | adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person | of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many | others have received will come your way. | NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, | either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. | This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might | be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to | reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the | directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for | their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your | name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name | reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in | CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the | first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the | list and you’re in business! | | Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. | | ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages | with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the | people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked | to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and | that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, | people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. | This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the | wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also | may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure | you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of | everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups | to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST | POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make | the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge | rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. | | Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… | | "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are | using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? | You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home | based computer and online business and methods of generating income at | home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your | mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of | thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, | keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing | this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups | and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no | longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the | newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, | make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. | | NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is | illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, | explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, | etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of | the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that | restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for | future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really | not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of | this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see | what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, | it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better | the response will be. | | ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE | ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better the response will be. ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S.

Response:

Question:

If company A leases one machinery to company B for $100 payable in 5 years, then in Profit & loss statement of company A (the lessor), should the $100 be recognised in sales revenue? thanks a lot!!!

Response:

If company A leases one machinery to company B for $100 payable in 5 years, then in Profit & loss statement of company A (the lessor), should the $100 be recognised in sales revenue? thanks a lot!!!

Nope, only 1/5 (20%) is earned the first year, though recording the full 100.00 as A/R in Y1 depends on contract terms.   And nope, it isn’t sales revenue.  It is lease revenue. If contract is cancelable, then – Y1 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue (okay, it ought to be 1.66666666666666666666666666666667 a month, but for simplicity, lets just post this on an annual basis) Y2 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue Y3 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue Y4 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue Y5 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue And when actually paid in Y5 db 100.00 cash cr 100.00 ar BTW – Company B made a sweet deal, not having to pay anything until the end of 5 years.  But don’t bet on something like this in real life. —      **  Working to make "taxes less taxing"  ** Ohio Tax Man – Robert Thompson Westerville (Columbus) Ohio The real beauty of a computerized system is that you can generate thousands of errors in a split second.

Response:

I forwarded this to our lease accounting guy and at the bottom is his response. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shouldn’t it be titled "accrued fee earned" because the amount can be withdrawn later? I’d say you should credit "accrued fee earned" and debit "cash". -Nix PS: I’m an I.T. major and have nothing to do with business; I just picked that up from my dad while he was working as an accountant. If company A leases one machinery to company B for $100 payable in 5 years, then in Profit & loss statement of company A (the lessor), should the $100 be recognised in sales revenue? thanks a lot!!! Nope, only 1/5 (20%) is earned the first year, though recording the full 100.00 as A/R in Y1 depends on contract terms. And nope, it isn’t sales revenue.  It is lease revenue. If contract is cancelable, then – Y1 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue (okay, it ought to be 1.66666666666666666666666666666667 a month, but for simplicity, lets just post this on an annual basis) Y2 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue Y3 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue Y4 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue Y5 db 020.00 a/r cr 020.00 lease revenue And when actually paid in Y5 db 100.00 cash cr 100.00 ar BTW – Company B made a sweet deal, not having to pay anything until the end of 5 years.  But don’t bet on something like this in real life. —      **  Working to make "taxes less taxing"  ** Ohio Tax Man – Robert Thompson Westerville (Columbus) Ohio The real beauty of a computerized system is that you can generate thousands of errors in a split second. Any hypothetical example will depend on whether the transaction is being posted using cash basis accounting or accrual, whether the entity is subject to GAAP or not (or if not, chooses to strictly follow GAAP or not), whether in USA or not, and actual contract terms.  YMMV.  There are many specifics needed that were not provided by the OP.  There may be a need to identify the revenue more clearly, but it is revenue earned upon the expiration of the interim period of the lease, that is, record the 20.00 each year, at the end of the year (or 1.66666666666666666666666666666667 each month, at the end of the month) as revenue.  And, no, it is not fee revenue, it is lease revenue. This assumes a contract signing of January 1, which may not have matched the situation contemplated by the OP.  

The discussion above has left out a few terms that would be needed to truly define the accounting. The first is the book vs. tax issue.  The second is cash vs. accrual. The third would be the elements needed for the FASB tests. In General though, Presuming book and accrual:         If this was defined as an operating lease to the Lessor, AR would not be debited until year 5. AR is typically considered short term or Current assets. Any money to be received five years from now would not be short term. OL = Operating Lease Year 1                                                                 D C                 OL Deferred (Balance Sheet)             20                 OL Income   (Income Statement)          20 Year 2                                                                 D C                 OL Deferred (Balance Sheet)             20                 OL Income   (Income Statement)          20 Year 3                                                                 D C                 OL Deferred (Balance Sheet)             20                 OL Income   (Income Statement)          20 Year 4                                                                 D C                 OL Deferred (Balance Sheet)             20                 OL Income   (Income Statement)          20 Year 5                                                                 D C                 OL Deferred (Balance Sheet)             20                 OL Income   (Income Statement)          20                 A/R                                             100                 OL Deferred 100                 Cash                                            100                 A/R 100         This method allows you to take income each year and keep track of the total taken without putting it in AR. By year 5,      it washes. For an operating lease, depreciation would have also been posted on the asset being leased. If the Lessee   wanted to payoff early, this account would show the amount accrued for a partial buyout. Not that AR couldn’t do that      but AR usually contains more stuff (taxes, other charges, etc)         If this lease was a Direct Finance Lease, the Implicit rate would be determined using the economics of the Lease.(COST, RESIDUAL, TERM, PMT, Frequency). Then the entries would be based around interest income and not rental income,  amortizing the PV’s to the Residual. Hope this helps. Remove NOSPAM for replies Cornerstone Software, Inc./ EaglePro Lease Accounting Software WWW: http://www.cornerstonesoftware.com/

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOL, I had filed a FVF on 1 winner from a dutch auction. I didnt pay any attention to the fees, But it was 21 cents. 1 month later the guy finally pays me without letting me know he would. Excuse was he moved and had a different email now. But anyway, I contact eBay to let them know and reverse the FVF credit on that transacction. Remember this is a dutch auction. All they needed to do was to just bill me the 21 cents. Instead here is an email explaining how they ended up charging me the 21 cents. talk about adding work to themselves. figure this out…. quoted from email from ebay.. "I checked your account, and I will assure you that the final value fee charges associated with item snipped< are correct. On May 8th the above item ended, and you were charged a $2.31 final value fee. Later, on June 17th, you filed for partial credit. We credited you $2.31, and then charged you $1.89, making your total credit $0.42. On June 27th you reversed the credit for one of the bidders that sent payment. So we credited your account for $1.89 that we originally charged you, and then charged you $2.10. So the reversal was $0.21, which was half of the original credit."

Bureaucracy strikes again.

Response:

You win. You have the stupidest subject line ever on this newsgroup. YABE

Why thank you! I try!

Response:

I’ll agree with the subject line being stupid.  First of all the CORRECT spelling is President Ronald REAGAN.   He also had a democrat party controlled house of representatives, with a democrat party controlled senate.   There’s the real reason for his screwed up accounting and increases in government spending!

Response:

Couldn’t agree more!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll agree with the subject line being stupid.  First of all the CORRECT spelling is President Ronald REAGAN.   He also had a democrat party controlled house of representatives, with a democrat party controlled senate.   There’s the real reason for his screwed up accounting and increases in government spending!

Response:

I’ll agree with the subject line being stupid.  First of all the CORRECT spelling is President Ronald REAGAN.   He also had a democrat party controlled house of representatives, with a democrat party controlled senate.   There’s the real reason for his screwed up accounting and increases in government spending!

Blame it on the poor old Dems  -  how about the defense contractors who put him in office in Calif & the White House???  Star Wars made them a ton of $$$$ and ran out debt out of sight. But we got the old "evil empire" who turned out not to be the real evil ones after all. Ronnie was a snake charmer for sure – charmed us, the Repubs and the Dems. John

Response:

LOL, I had filed a FVF on 1 winner from a dutch auction. I didnt pay any attention to the fees, But it was 21 cents. 1 month later the guy finally pays me without letting me know he would. Excuse was he moved and had a different email now. But anyway, I contact eBay to let them know and reverse the FVF credit on that transacction. Remember this is a dutch auction. All they needed to do was to just bill me the 21 cents. Instead here is an email explaining how they ended up charging me the 21 cents. talk about adding work to themselves. figure this out…. quoted from email from ebay.. "I checked your account, and I will assure you that the final value fee charges associated with item snipped< are correct. On May 8th the above item ended, and you were charged a $2.31 final value fee. Later, on June 17th, you filed for partial credit. We credited you $2.31, and then charged you $1.89, making your total credit $0.42. On June 27th you reversed the credit for one of the bidders that sent payment. So we credited your account for $1.89 that we originally charged you, and then charged you $2.10. So the reversal was $0.21, which was half of the original credit."

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Only $500 for a lifetimes time of background work, auditioning, training and preparing to be a good actor is indeed a bargain at any market rate. Thats what you are paying for.  All the time, work, and the intangible…talent. Exactly. They tell a story about a manager that hired an engineer to fix some enormously complicated set of equipment. Forgive me if I tell it badly. The engineer came in, looked around a little, pushed a button, and fixed the thing. He charged the manager $10,000. The manager complained: "$10,000 to push one lousy button?" The engineer told him it was $1 to push the button, and $9,999 for knowing which button to push. Before you buy.

that’s a wonderful, albeit inaccurate, analogy to acting.  if you include the 100,000 engineers willing to accept less money to push the same button, how much would the engineer make?

Response:

that’s a wonderful, albeit inaccurate, analogy to acting.  if you include the 100,000 engineers willing to accept less money to push the same button, how much would the engineer make?

That’s a wonderful, if ignorant, corollary. You, as always, presume this is a free market. A better corollary would be, what if the person who called in the engineer had to choose from a limited number of the 100,000 who fit the criteria of his employer, yet that contractor had to have the talent and training to fix the damned machine, no matter how badly it was directed, uhhhh, manufactured? What if the employer of that supervisor was not in competition with any other employer, because he had non-compete agreements with them across the board? What if that employer was making gobs of money, a monopoly profit, in the first place, and would stand to make more, yet the engineer was a member of the organized union which, as Ayn Rand says, is the only defense against an unlawful agglomeration of organized humans? Then the engineer would deserve the $10,000 anyway. You read right, "deserve". In an oligopolic market, increased costs of production are acceptable and expected, precisely because the producer can pass them along to his customer base. GOD YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT! GO BACK TO UC-DAVIS DIRECTING SCHOOL WHERE YOU CAN BARELY SCRUB THE FLOORS! And as always, you show why you’ve earned the name "Ignoranus". Carl — If you can’t be kind, at least have the decency to be  vague. Before you buy.

Response:

Holy smoke, Carl!  You really impressed me there!  You remind me of a friend I have (and miss terribly) back in CA.  His name is Chuck.  You guys seem to think alike.  And that’s a compliment. — Janice If all the world’s a stage why can’t I get any press?

Response:

Holy smoke, Carl!  You really impressed me there!  You remind me of a friend I have (and miss terribly) back in CA.  His name is Chuck.  You guys seem to think alike.  And that’s a compliment.

Um OK, but what the hell was I talking about? Damn, picked the wrong lift to give up drugs… Carl — If you can’t be kind, at least have the decency to be  vague. Before you buy.

Response:

Only $500 for a lifetimes time of background work, auditioning, training and preparing to be a good actor is indeed a bargain at any market rate. Thats what you are paying for.  All the time, work, and the intangible…talent.

Response:

Only $500 for a lifetimes time of background work, auditioning, training and preparing to be a good actor is indeed a bargain at any market rate. Thats what you are paying for.  All the time, work, and the intangible…talent.

Exactly. They tell a story about a manager that hired an engineer to fix some enormously complicated set of equipment. Forgive me if I tell it badly. The engineer came in, looked around a little, pushed a button, and fixed the thing. He charged the manager $10,000. The manager complained: "$10,000 to push one lousy button?" The engineer told him it was $1 to push the button, and $9,999 for knowing which button to push. Before you buy.

Response:

Rational advertisers are happy for the talent pool to continue to take classes, maintain their appearance and capabilities, distribute their headshots and resumes and otherwise advertise themselves, travel to auditions, accept rejection, pay fees for various services and support, etc., on an ongoing basis…

TENTHSFGA responded: Advertisers don’t give a DAMN about what an actor MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have done to prepare himself for a hoped-for acting career or any acting job in particular …. nor for what it cost him in time/money/effort to do so.  They have no reason whatever to care about those things.  They’re ALL the actor’s problems, not the advertisers’. Advertisers are "happy" when they pay no more than the market requires for the level of acting services they desire for their spots.

TTBMANDA CHIMES BACK IN: I agree with you that too many performers are tossing around the notion of what’s "fair" without citing much foundation. And I must say I’m impressed that you zeroed in on it. But that wasn’t the focus of my statements. Of COURSE advertisers care about performers’ preparation — implicitly, if not explicitly. It is evident that they "care," because they already pay far above "market rates" for a day’s work. (You and I have discussed this before, that’s why I regurgitated your use of the word "regurgitate.") We all know that minimum wage would be sufficient to draw some living bodies to TV auditions. But you said it yourself… the "market requires" more than that for "the level of acting services they desire." Those services include the ones I listed above: marketing, travel, training, etc. In addition, the market frequently "requires" a number of other attributes — good looks, nice voice, sincere countenance, etc. — that have landed many people in the union to begin with. Advertisers also pay a premium for these attributes(for better or worse). Similarly, consumers pay far above variable manufacturing costs for prescription drugs. The premium over such costs is necessary; otherwise, there would be no incentive for pharmaceutical manufacturers to engage in drug development that nine times out of ten fails to result in a marketable product. Once again, I reiterate (regurgitate) the notion that there is no dispute over whether the services I’ve listed are of value. The dispute is over the incremental amounts (positive or negative) and the system by which such services are to be compensated. By the way, I don’t think that arguing the question of what’s "fair" is completely without merit. I believe that it’s more difficult to argue that rollbacks are "fair" in these economic boom times than it is to argue that increases are "fair." I hope you don’t mind that I cleaned up some of your spelling and punctuation mistakes. Before you buy.

Response:

manda:  Tenth, you also continue to be "in regurgitation mode."

Until ya finally learn, manda. 10th:  Hired hands don’t determine what’s "fair."  They either take it or

leave it. manda:  Organized hands negotiate with employers in determination of what’s

acceptable to both sides. Very good, manda.  I’m pleased to note the absence of the "fairness" ploy in your description of the bargaining process. 10th:  [$500 session fee]  Well that’s all he’s really earned.  And not bad,

either, for just a  day’s "work." manda:  The only people who would consider $500 not bad for a day’s work are

those that only work one day to get it. Rational advertisers are happy for the talent pool to continue to take classes, maintain their appearance and capabilities, distribute their headshots and resumes and otherwise advertise themselves, travel to auditions, accept rejection, pay fees for various services and support, etc., on an ongoing basis Advertisers don’t give a DAMN about what an actor MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have done to prepare himself for a hoped-for acting career or for any acting job in particular …. nor for what it cost him in time/money/effort to do so.  They have no reason whatever to care about those things.  They’re ALL the actor’s problems, not the advertisers’. Advertisers are "happy" when they pay no more than the market requires for the level of acting services they desire for their spots.

Response:

Tenth, you also continue to be "in regurgitation mode." Hired hands don’t determine what’s "fair."  They either take it or leave it.

Organized hands negotiate with employers in determination of what’s acceptable to both sides. konk:  an actor is only guaranteed $500, the amount paid to perform in a commercial. Well that’s all he’s really earned.  And not bad, either, for just a day’s "work."

The only people who would consider $500 not bad for a day’s work are those that only work one day to get it. Rational advertisers are happy for the talent pool to continue to take classes, maintain their appearance and capabilities, distribute their headshots and resumes and otherwise advertise themselves, travel to auditions, accept rejection, pay fees for various services and support, etc., on an ongoing basis. That’s why they have paid — and continue to offer to pay — a premium over what’s "not bad for a day’s work." Before you buy.

Response:

The Facts S.A.G./A.F.T.R.A. wants actors to receive "Pay-Per-Play" for broadcast network and cable network commercial usage. Pay-Per-Play means an advertiser pays an actor each time a commercial airs. Pay-Per-Play is the only system that fairly compensates actors in accordance to their actual exposure. When an advertiser chooses to use a commercial many times, the actor in the commercial becomes over-exposed, her image indelibly linked with the product being sold. Given the actor’s strong association with the product, other advertisers refuse to cast her. The greater the over-exposure, the longer the unemployment. Pay-Per-Play means advertisers only pay for actual usage of a commercial. Flat fees force smaller advertisers to pay a premium when a commercial only airs a few times. $4,200 for "one day’s work" is a lie. Under the advertisers’ last offer, an actor is only guaranteed $500, the amount paid to perform in a commercial. If the commercial does not play or is "held"-a common occurrence-the actor receives no additional money in the first cycle. The actor is also contractually barred from appearing in any other commercial selling a competing product. If the commercial does play on broadcast network television, the $500 already paid to the actor is applied to the $2,575 flat fee. This means the actor really only receives a $2,075 payment for unlimited use. If the commercial plays on a cable network, the maximum the actor can earn is $1,627. If commercial airs on a limited number of major cable networks, the actor would receive far less. The only people earning a guaranteed $4,202 a day are the attorneys negotiating on behalf of advertisers. Based upon data just released by McCann-Erickson Worldwide, Actor payments now make up less than 1 % of the total cost to produce and air commercials. Currently actors earn a maximum of $11 a day for unlimited use of a commercial on cable television. Advertisers claim the S.A.G./A.F.T.R.A. cable proposal amounts to a 350% increase. Even if the advertisers’ unproven allegation were true, an actor would earn $38.50 a day for unlimited cable usage of a commercial– Less than the minimum wage. Advertisers say they are offering a 60% increase in cable residual rates. Their latest offer is only an 11% increase. $29 million dollars of the "60% cable increase" comes from a $29 million decrease in broadcast network payments. S.A.G./A.F.T.R.A. wants Internet usage included in the commercial contract. Advertisers say they don’t have the authority to include Internet usage in the commercial contract even though they’ve already spent millions buying and creating Internet-only advertising agencies. Advertisers refuse to provide accurate monitoring records of commercial usage. They demand we trust them. A S.A.G. monitoring study of 38 commercials uncovered over $110,000 in unpaid wages. The study reveals actors can’t afford to trust advertisers. Advertisers say the pay-per-play system is flawed because networks are capturing only 50% of all television viewers as compared to 90% in 1970. They fail to mention that the number of total television viewers has grown by 66% in the last thirty years Network is just as valuable today as it ever was. And, since cable now delivers nearly the same share as the big six networks, it deserves the same payment system. Despite the notion that actors earn millions – 80% of S.A.G. members earn less than $5000 a year. Advertising revenues are up dramatically. According to Advertising Age, total gross income for the top 500 U.S. based ad agencies increased by over 22% in 1999. Additionally, an accounting by the Cabletelevision Advertising Bureau revealed a 33% gain in cable ad billings to over $10,000,000,000 ($10 billion.)

Response:

Konk/Wap is now in regurgitation mode, soooo…..: konk:  Pay-Per-Play is the only system that fairly compensates actors

Hired hands don’t determine what’s "fair."  They either take it or leave it. Plenty of commercial actors have determined the advertisers offer to be in line with the over-supply of actors and the relative shortage of commercial acting jobs.  Deal with it. konk:  the actor’s strong association with the product,

In yer dreams, konk.  You’re no Mr. Whipple. konk:  Flat fees force smaller advertisers to pay a premium when a commercial

only airs a few times. Awww … now yer feelin’ sorry for the poor advertisers, konk?  (I don’t think they need your sympathy.  They don’t need your services, at your inflated price, either.) konk:  an actor is only guaranteed $500, the amount paid to perform in a

commercial. Well that’s all he’s really earned.  And not bad, either, for just a day’s "work." konk:  The actor is also contractually barred from appearing in any other

commercial selling a competing product. But given how FEW actors get commercial work OF ANY SORT in a typical year …. this alleged problem affects HARDLY ANY of the sheep you’re begging to support SAG’s silly, little strike. konk:  The only people earning a guaranteed $4,202 a day are the attorneys

On the outside chance that this might be accurate ….. SO FUCKIN’ WHAT, KONK/WAP? konk:  Actor payments now make up less than 1 % of the total cost to produce

and air commercials. Absolutely irrelevent to the competitive, free market VALUE of a commercial actor’s service. konk:  Currently actors earn a maximum of $11 a day for unlimited use of a

commercial on cable television. A double-talking, damnable LIE, konk.  (But, btw …. if the use is "unlimited," how do you arrive at $11 PER DAY?  How many days do you ASSUME to be the proper denominator … and upon what foundation do you support your assumption?) konk:  an actor would earn $38.50 a day for unlimited cable usage of a

commercial- And he does WHAT with the remaining $461.50 of the session fee, konk? (Mindful, as I’m sure you are, that he "worked" only ONE day.) konk:  Advertisers refuse to provide accurate monitoring records of commercial

usage  <<snip  actors can’t afford to trust advertisers You hams get ALL the benefit of such monitoring …. YOU pay for it.  SAG/AFTRA dues would be the perfect mechanism. konk:  80% of S.A.G. members earn less than $5000 a year.

Ending, forever, the question among reasonable people as to how much the services of an actor are WORTH. konk:  Advertising revenues are up dramatically.

Demonstrating that advertising agencies have done a superior job of analyzing the risk/reward ratio of their industry than actors have done with theirs. Good for them.

Response:

Question:

OK, dumb question  v4.02(a)… What’s the proper position in which to transport a speaker cab (or combo, etc.) Seems like when I was in college, lo these many years ago, there were two schools of "thought", if the semi-intelligible ravings of my pot-soaked comrades can be called that.  The opposing viewpoints are summarized thusly: Answer #1)   " Oh, man, you’ve gotta …. like… put that thing in the car with the magnet facing down.  ’Cuz if you don’t, the magnet and stuff are gonna like fall through the speaker cone, and all this shit will come busting out’s the thing" Answer #2)    "Far out, man, but you’ve gotta carry that amp with the magnet facing up.  Otherwise, with the magnet hanging down, its weight will make the whole mess vibrate off the supports, and the back end of the speaker will all just fall off, pulling out the wires & stuff." <sigh  At the risk of furthering others’ opinions of my general lamosity, I’ve gotta ask this question here. Unfortunately, both answers sound equally logical, even accounting for the many years, and the altered level of consciousness of the people giving the advice way back when. Thanks, — Barney — Soldotna, Alaska kl7hny AT amsat DAHT org Soldotna, Alaska BP40kl   151.04.10W, 60.30.00N

Response:

A speaker frame so weak that it can’t support the magnet? So much for those vintage speakers from the 50’s! And to think so people are getting premium dollar for those things! Magnet orientation – really doesn’t matter.

Response:

OK, dumb question  v4.02(a)… What’s the proper position in which to transport a speaker cab (or combo, etc.)

Well, unless you’re going flat out down those ruts that pass for highways up there in the middle of nowhere, I don’t think it’s a big deal, but I go with magnets up, just so I don’t have the speakers fighting so hard to get loose from the baffle (The Gravity Effect). I hope your friends recovered from their brain damage. -Miles

Response:

OK, dumb question  v4.02(a)… What’s the proper position in which to transport a speaker cab (or combo, etc.)

I don’t think it makes much difference, unless you expect some pretty rough rides, but speakers should be transported ‘magnet-up.’  Also, another thing that might help is to short the speakers, because a shorted coil will move less freely throught the gap than an open coil. That said, I’ve moved speakers around for years without either of these precautions, and never lost one due to cone movement or coil form damage from bottoming out. Where the hell was Biggles When you needed him last Saturday?

Response:

An interesting question – for the ME in me anyway. I, like other posters, have moved speakers around for years without any precautions and have never lost one IMMEDIATELY.  That means it always worked when I plugged it in again; any damage – if any (which I doubt) – was at least not instantly terminal.  The main criteria for loading has always been "How can I get ALL this equip’ in my Beetle ……" Engineering wise – it makes sense to haul these with the axis vertical.  I can’t see what difference it would make either ‘magnet-up’ or magnet down – metals are typically equally strong in both tension and compression.  With the heavy magnet side mounted, however, I can image the frame getting bent with a huge G force  - like dropping a stiff the cabinet off a loading platform or out of a 747.  I suspect it would take one HELL of a pothole to cause that. I have heard of some well designed cabinets that have a switching jack that shorts the speakers – this electromagnetically couples the cone / voice coil assembly with the Perm’ Mag’ and therefore the basket and should brake excursion of the spider and surround, although I have seen big bass notes cause a lot of movement there. BOTTOM LINE – I agree:  I don’t think it makes much difference.

Response:

JDW & Miles, Thanx. I think a lot of the folks giving the "advice" way back then were like 1st year mechanical engineering students.  Which is nearly the same as 1st year pre-law, pre-med, pre-English Art History, etc., as far as classes went.  Assuming they even *went* to classes. I kinda figgered they didn’t know, considering the vague reasoning. But then that doesn’t speak well of me, either, cuz I halfway believed both schools of thought.  (Guess both "schools" and "thought" should’a been in parentheses, soo…) As far as recovering from dain bramage, I don’t think so — I think they all  went into either politics or professional wrestling. Thanks again, — Barney —

[snippage of actual helpage, including JDW's postage] ::I hope your friends recovered from their brain damage. :: ::-Miles kl7hny AT amsat DAHT org Soldotna, Alaska BP40kl   151.04.10W, 60.30.00N

Response:

Question:

I guess I really ought to keep my 11 year old son from reading this NG. I know that we all like to express ourselves with free speech Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -PS: Happy Mothers Day Suncom! I’ll give all your whore mothers an extra quarter when they’re finished sucking my dogs dick.

Response:

  Have your 11 year old read a book instead. We are not here to babysit your brat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I really ought to keep my 11 year old son from reading this NG. I know that we all like to express ourselves with free speech Mark

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric, Please read my original post, "Open appeal…". I think my tone was very civil there. I realize that one "gets more flys with honey than with shit," and I also realize that many of the support/customer service people with whom I correspond are not themselves responsible for my troubles, and deserve to be addressed politely. But after a point, after being totally ignored by this company for three months, I have to hold them all responsible. Suncom sucks. They can ALL kiss my ass. Suncom sucks. Never another penny of my money. W Spilman PS: Happy Mothers Day Suncom! I’ll give all your whore mothers an extra quarter when they’re finished sucking my dogs dick. "Dont know what you may have had as a problem but if you talked to them the way yr quoted above…then perhaps you got a different level of service than I did… Eric"

Im sure you were reasonable.  I know you are frustrated. I would be too.  It does surprise me though.  Did you call them?   I would Good luck. EJJ

Response:

Righteous indignation loses its justification when it turns into blatant abuse! (I cant believe I just type’d that line…..must be the hours of playing sims killing the braincells!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric, Please read my original post, "Open appeal…". I think my tone was very civil there. I realize that one "gets more flys with honey than with shit," and I also realize that many of the support/customer service people with whom I correspond are not themselves responsible for my troubles, and deserve to be addressed politely. But after a point, after being totally ignored by this company for three months, I have to hold them all responsible. Suncom sucks. They can ALL kiss my ass. Suncom sucks. Never another penny of my money. W Spilman PS: Happy Mothers Day Suncom! I’ll give all your whore mothers an extra quarter when they’re finished sucking my dogs dick. "Dont know what you may have had as a problem but if you talked to them the way yr quoted above…then perhaps you got a different level of service than I did… Eric"

Response:

*PLONK* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Have your 11 year old read a book instead. We are not here to babysit your brat. I guess I really ought to keep my 11 year old son from reading this NG. I know that we all like to express ourselves with free speech Mark

Response:

I am not against seeing or hearing the odd expletive when used in the proper context I.E. Expressing anger or frustration.. Hell I use them myself from time to time and have even used the odd choice word myself in this NG. What does get my back up is seeing a graphical pornagraphic word picture of the nature displayed in this thread. My son and I derive a lot of pleasure from racing sims, flight sims and all manner of other activities on the net. As a father, I try to involve him with as many pursuits as possible to give him experience of life and broaden his horizons. He IS NOT A BRAT because he has had to learn certain values (those that seem to be sadly lacking in some people on this NG). I conduct myself on the net the same way that I do in real life. I use appropriate language in appropriate company. If certain people cannot do this it is just an indication of their inability to articulate themselves in other ways. Why the hell should other people suffer for these tossers? eah…..on the odd occasion a kid might hear me swear when I hit my thumb with a hammer but they would never hear me indulge in a pre meditated dialogue involving graphical obscene content. Once again it would appear that I have had the misfortune to encounter a genuine fully grown ADULT BRAT who thinks fit to make personal attacks without standing back for a second and thinking about what he is saying. I am not asking anyone to babysit for me, simply appealing for a bit of common decency in a NG that after all is all about playing games (call them sims if you will). What reading matter would you suggest for the boy if he can’t read a NG about playing games with racing cars? The standard textbook of Cosmology or perhaps business accounting? Either way, he will not be reading any more shit from you or your kind at least for the next couple of years. Hope you are proud of yourself Mr xanthar or whatever your name is. Mark Seery…….Not afraid to use my real name. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Have your 11 year old read a book instead. We are not here to babysit your brat. I guess I really ought to keep my 11 year old son from reading this NG. I know that we all like to express ourselves with free speech Mark

Response:

*PLONK* Eat shit and die, Mark. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *PLONK*  Have your 11 year old read a book instead. We are not here to babysit your brat. I guess I really ought to keep my 11 year old son from reading this NG. I know that we all like to express ourselves with free speech Mark

Response:

*PLONK* Eat shit and die, Mark.

Interesting to see a genuine IQ bypass working!  Christopher Jarman

Response:

Stinking chicken-shit sacks of crap. That’s what I think of the folks at Suncom. No answer, no help, no support for their products. May they all go to hell. W Spilman

Ummmmm, Im sensing some hostility here:) Regards Mailman

Response:

I have an SFS throttle (ser.# 4645) that I purchased at my local Electronics Boutique, and registered online. I have seen snippets of information indicating that there was some defect in early production models of the Throttle. I have made numerous posts and sent e-mails to your company requesting some official response, but I have heard nothing. My hat switch is malfunctioning. Programmed keys will operate properly when tested in Notepad, but functon sporadically (if at all) when in a game. Will someone please tell me what the nature of the mysterious is, and what can I do to get my throttle repaired. Thank you. Webb Spilman

Response:

Stinking chicken-shit sacks of crap. That’s what I think of the folks at Suncom. No answer, no help, no support for their products. May they all go to hell. W Spilman

Response:

I take it you’ve been on hold for more than a couple of minutes? -Arlo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stinking chicken-shit sacks of crap. That’s what I think of the folks at Suncom. No answer, no help, no support for their products. May they all go to hell. W Spilman

Response:

Stinking chicken-shit sacks of crap. That’s what I think of the folks at Suncom. No answer, no help, no support for their products. May they all go to hell. W Spilman But how do you REALLY feel?

Yes please, don’t sugarcoat it….:-) -John "Life is the pursuit, not the capture" – Major Scott D. Anderson, MN Air National Guard.  1966-1999

Response:

If they are getting your goat that badly, then you are letting them win.  Turn the tide on them – find someone who cares.  Or, continue advocating not patronizing them. Bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stinking chicken-shit sacks of crap. That’s what I think of the folks at Suncom. No answer, no help, no support for their products. May they all go to hell. W Spilman But how do you REALLY feel? The Speedbyrd

Question:

Just let me know if you’d like a copy of my Agent killfile… serves me very well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I have finally reached the point that I am going to start using twit filters.  There is so much good stuff on RAH that it seems a sham (that is how a meant to spell it) to wade through the stuff from the disrupters of RAH.  When this current batch of twits split, I will go back to my usual AOL account.  I guess there is no accounting for taste. Dan (I can’t believe I am filtering)

Response:

Well I have finally reached the point that I am going to start using twit filters.  There is so much good stuff on RAH that it seems a sham (that is how a meant to spell it) to wade through the stuff from the disrupters of RAH.  When this current batch of twits split, I will go back to my usual AOL account.  I guess there is no accounting for taste. Dan (I can’t believe I am filtering) — FlyLGB at msn dot com OR dhoyte at aol dot com

Response:

Well I have finally reached the point that I am going to start using twit filters.  There is so much good stuff on RAH that it seems a sham (that is how a meant to spell it) to wade through the stuff from the disrupters of RAH.  When this current batch of twits split, I will go back to my usual AOL account.  I guess there is no accounting for taste.

        Dan, quit beating yourself up–its not your fault!  I have been using filters for a long time now and my reading pleasure has been greatly increased.  For starters, "zoom" is a good one to add! : )  I am getting ready to add "tarver".  I once saw a witty .sig file someone appended to a Usenet post that sums it up: Happiness is a warm Killfile. : ) — Matthew Greenlaw                         Mechanical Engineering http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~mgreenl       Clemson, South Carolina

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Question:

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII An excerpt of an article originally from Judaism Mag, [American Jewish Committee]  posted here in compliance with the FAIR USE DOCTRINE for educational and study purposes. This is an educational forum.    By ELLIOT B. GERTEL ELLIOT B. GERTEL is Rabbi of Congregation Rodfei    Zedek, in Chicago, and is on the editorial boards of Conservative    Judaism and The Jewish Spectator. "In Deuteronomy, Moses tells the people that it was because they were small and helpless that he chose them…" Sinai and what makes us Jewish. It is always inspiring and exciting to read the majestic narrative in Exodus 20 which tells of God’s Revelation to the Israelites on Mount Sinai, entering into a Covenant with an entire people and stipulating laws to that people amidst thunder and lightning. The giving and receiving of those commandments is described as a cosmic event, merging nature and humanity, heaven and earth. The ancient Rabbis have many significant and meaningful legends about it and there is a substantial genre of Jewish humor about it as well. Much of that humor is actually quite serious and quite sarcastic and almost always involves a history lesson. Consider, for example, the experience of Benjamin Disraeli who, when he was appointed to high office in Britain, was the object of anti- Semitic diatribes in Parliament. Disraeli, ever the superb wit, answered his attackers by observing that when his ancestors, the Jews, received the Torah on Sinai, their ancestors were naked barbarians roving the Anglo- Saxon woodlands. A similar story is told of the Jew in America who was told by an old Yankee woman, who obviously regarded him as an outsider: "My ancestors came over on the Mayflower." The Jewish man, who rightfully felt as much of an American as she, responded: "My ancestors stood on Mount Sinai and received the Ten Commandments. " There is very little that is light-hearted about these jokes. They are jokes or witticisms of pain, of the pain of Jewish individuals who, responding to Gentile attempts to make them feel inferior, as well as to their own discomfort at being and feeling "different," return with the suggestion that Jews may even be a bit superior. In thee Sinai narrative, in fact, God tells the people: "Now, therefore, if ye will harken to My voice, indeed, and keep my Covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine; and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests and a holy people" (Exodus 19:5-6). Does this concept of a priestly people, a holy people, mean that Jews must regard themselves as somehow better or superior to others? Note that God’s "election" of the Israelites is contingent upon their accepting the Covenant and its commandments. There is no reason given for God’ s "choice." There is no accounting for taste, not even God’s. The point is simply made in Scripture that God owns the world and, thus, can choose anyone for any purpose. Yet, it does seem that some perspective on the role of Jews in the world and on the meaning of being Jewish is offered in the Covenant narrative in Exodus — not only a perspective, but the perspective. With the frequent talk and argument about Who is a Jew," or ‘What is a Jew — a perennial issue in Israel — and with all of our own questions about "Why be Jewish?" and the answers that each of us gives, not to mention all the debates as to which are the "authentic" answers, it is certainly worth considering the Biblical account of the Covenant, in order to assess some attitudes of Jews, both modern and ancient, on the meaning of Jewishhess.    I. We begin with the most negative possible (and happily, out of style) attitude of Jews — namely, Jewish self-hatred, a belief that Jews are, somehow, inferior to others. Self-hatred abounded when the ghetto walls collapsed in the last century and Jews emerged into the enlightened, Western world. They were objects of contempt even in so-called secularized society, [1] and were themselves embarrassed that they had not yet acquired the culture, art, sciences, or the manners of the Western World. Worse yet, many Jews were self-conscious about the commandments and holy deeds, the knowledge of sacred literature and of the spiritual dimension of life, in which their parents had excelled. Christianity seemed so much more cultured — assuming, of course, that one needed religion at all. In 1945, Rabbi Milton Steinberg wrote a book, A Partisan Guide to the Jewish Problem, in order to confront precisely this kind of Jewish self-hatred which was so prevalent from the nineteenth century to well into the twentieth. In that volume, he described the diary of a Jewish woman in Germany, early in our century, who wrote of the "painful, hateful, deadly . . . consciousness of my [Jewish] descent" which she compared to leprosy and cancer! "As little as a dog or pig can cast off its dogishness or swinishness," she wrote, so "little can I tear myself from the ties that bind me to that stage of existence that lies between man and beast — the Jews." She added that, for murder or theft she could find forgiveness, but never for the "sin" and "curse" of Jewishness.[2] Fortunately, that kind of self-hatred is not so prevalent today. Neither do we speak of a "Jewish problem," for it is now recognized that the so-called "Jewish problem" is really the problem of anti-Semites or a psychological disorder in some Jews. We live in a time when ethnic pride is fashionable. We agree quite readily with Rabbi Steinberg when we read his protests, made in the 1930s and 1940s, that "the Jew who is a hollow shell, a Jewish Zero, a Hebraic cipher, a vacuum, is flooded inevitably with hostile notions about Jews. The anti-Semite convinces him." We agree with his observation that a "living Judaism" delivers the Jewish man or woman from being a worm, and provides self- respect? Through the achievements of the American Jewish community and the State of Israel, we have learned to be proud of Jewishness. But we are still in danger of hollow pride, which is no substitute for spiritual vision. For when spiritual vision is chauvinism, self- hatred can return. When the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy, Moses tells the people that the Commandments are the wisdom of the Jewish People both in our eyes and in the eyes of other peoples (Deut. 4:6). The Biblical vision is that we Jews are not sustained by pride, but that we become a treasure among the nations, both to ourselves and to others, when we maintain a certain perspective on our relationship with God, the Covenant between us.[3] Covenant, in turn, provides a structure both of perspective and growth for the people, a structure for teaching the people as well as for forgiving them.[4] For if, as Solomon Schechter observed, it is not always easy to love the Jews, we learn to love fellow Jews, and, thereby, to love humanity, through the Covenant. One needs the Covenant, as well, in order to love God. It is the structure for arguing with God, [5] for seeking Him.    II. Indeed, the attitude of self-hatred is but the flipside posture of a second attitude of some Jews about the Jewish People — namely, that we are somehow better than others. When one reads the writings of Rabbi Meir Kahane, for example, one would conclude that Judaism has never learned from other peoples, that, the more Jews live in a vacuum, the more authentic and pure and uncontaminated their Judaism will be. There definitely has been an attitude in certain periods and in certain places that anything Gentile is impure, evil, and un-Jewish, and that Gentiles are, somehow, less moral, less intelligent, less worthy than Jews. It may be true that, in ages past, our ancestors had reason to regard Gentiles as menacing and violent and as morally not as disciplined as they were themselves. That may have been true of certain cultures in which Jews found themselves, but there was never a doctrine in Judaism that, somehow, Jews were born with greater morality and intelligence. Indeed, the Torah makes the point over and over that the people must keep up their fide of the Covenant by obeying God’s commandments and trusting in God. In Hebrew, faith, emunah, means being faithful: both God and Israel must be faithful to the Covenant. The Book of Deuteronomy insists on observing that, when the people of Israel received the commandments, they could not tolerate the Voice of God, and begged Moses to spare them from direct contact with His Voice (Deut. 18:15). An ancient midrash of our Sages says that the experience was so overwhelming that the people literally lost their souls, and God had to revive them.[6] No people was equipped to face the Divine Charge. Another Rabbinic legend says that, when the Israelites came out of Egypt, they were broken-down, blemished, bruised, a sorry bunch after all the years of slavery, with every physical affliction. God had to heal them on the spot so that they would be up to what happened at Sinai (Numbers Rabbah 7:1). The implication is that they were not chosen because they were super people or in any way perfect specimens. Indeed, God found them an appropriate vehicle (Deut. 7:7), so that no one would believe that they were powerful and cleve/enough to develop an advanced culture on their own which might be ascribed to them instead of to God. As for Gentiles, our tradition maintained that, through the Covenant that God made with Noah, they were expected to lead moral lives and to shun idolatry, and that all who lived decent lives would have salvation and Divine support.[7] There is no competition between Jews and Gentiles to see who is more moral. The role of Israel was to point the way, but not to corner the market on morality and wisdom. Indeed, the Torah reading in which the Ten Commandments appear is named after Jethro, Moses’ father- in-law, who is described as pious and God-fearing and … read more »

Response:

(snip) I found this interesting URL that might help you better understanding jews. it;s not my tho. http://alpha.ftcnet.com/~ourhero/files/jewlist.txt

Response:

An excerpt of an article originally from Judaism Mag, [American Jewish Committee]  posted here in compliance with the FAIR USE DOCTRINE for educational and study purposes. This is an educational forum.    By ELLIOT B. GERTEL ELLIOT B. GERTEL is Rabbi of Congregation Rodfei    Zedek, in Chicago, and is on the editorial boards of Conservative    Judaism and The Jewish Spectator. "In Deuteronomy, Moses tells the people that it was because they were small and helpless that he chose them…" Sinai and what makes us Jewish. It is always inspiring and exciting to read the majestic narrative in Exodus 20 which tells of God’s Revelation to the Israelites on Mount Sinai, entering into a Covenant with an entire people and stipulating laws to that people amidst thunder and lightning. The giving and receiving of those commandments is described as a cosmic event, merging nature and humanity, heaven and earth. The ancient Rabbis have many significant and meaningful legends about it and there is a substantial genre of Jewish humor about it as well. Much of that humor is actually quite serious and quite sarcastic and almost always involves a history lesson. Consider, for example, the experience of Benjamin Disraeli who, when he was appointed to high office in Britain, was the object of anti- Semitic diatribes in Parliament. Disraeli, ever the superb wit, answered his attackers by observing that when his ancestors, the Jews, received the Torah on Sinai, their ancestors were naked barbarians roving the Anglo- Saxon woodlands. A similar story is told of the Jew in America who was told by an old Yankee woman, who obviously regarded him as an outsider: "My ancestors came over on the Mayflower." The Jewish man, who rightfully felt as much of an American as she, responded: "My ancestors stood on Mount Sinai and received the Ten Commandments. " There is very little that is light-hearted about these jokes. They are jokes or witticisms of pain, of the pain of Jewish individuals who, responding to Gentile attempts to make them feel inferior, as well as to their own discomfort at being and feeling "different," return with the suggestion that Jews may even be a bit superior. In thee Sinai narrative, in fact, God tells the people: "Now, therefore, if ye will harken to My voice, indeed, and keep my Covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine; and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests and a holy people" (Exodus 19:5-6). Does this concept of a priestly people, a holy people, mean that Jews must regard themselves as somehow better or superior to others? Note that God’s "election" of the Israelites is contingent upon their accepting the Covenant and its commandments. There is no reason given for God’ s "choice." There is no accounting for taste, not even God’s. The point is simply made in Scripture that God owns the world and, thus, can choose anyone for any purpose. Yet, it does seem that some perspective on the role of Jews in the world and on the meaning of being Jewish is offered in the Covenant narrative in Exodus — not only a perspective, but the perspective. With the frequent talk and argument about Who is a Jew," or ‘What is a Jew — a perennial issue in Israel — and with all of our own questions about "Why be Jewish?" and the answers that each of us gives, not to mention all the debates as to which are the "authentic" answers, it is certainly worth considering the Biblical account of the Covenant, in order to assess some attitudes of Jews, both modern and ancient, on the meaning of Jewishhess.    I. We begin with the most negative possible (and happily, out of style) attitude of Jews — namely, Jewish self-hatred, a belief that Jews are, somehow, inferior to others. Self-hatred abounded when the ghetto walls collapsed in the last century and Jews emerged into the enlightened, Western world. They were objects of contempt even in so-called secularized society, [1] and were themselves embarrassed that they had not yet acquired the culture, art, sciences, or the manners of the Western World. Worse yet, many Jews were self-conscious about the commandments and holy deeds, the knowledge of sacred literature and of the spiritual dimension of life, in which their parents had excelled. Christianity seemed so much more cultured — assuming, of course, that one needed religion at all. In 1945, Rabbi Milton Steinberg wrote a book, A Partisan Guide to the Jewish Problem, in order to confront precisely this kind of Jewish self-hatred which was so prevalent from the nineteenth century to well into the twentieth. In that volume, he described the diary of a Jewish woman in Germany, early in our century, who wrote of the "painful, hateful, deadly . . . consciousness of my [Jewish] descent" which she compared to leprosy and cancer! "As little as a dog or pig can cast off its dogishness or swinishness," she wrote, so "little can I tear myself from the ties that bind me to that stage of existence that lies between man and beast — the Jews." She added that, for murder or theft she could find forgiveness, but never for the "sin" and "curse" of Jewishness.[2] Fortunately, that kind of self-hatred is not so prevalent today. Neither do we speak of a "Jewish problem," for it is now recognized that the so-called "Jewish problem" is really the problem of anti-Semites or a psychological disorder in some Jews. We live in a time when ethnic pride is fashionable. We agree quite readily with Rabbi Steinberg when we read his protests, made in the 1930s and 1940s, that "the Jew who is a hollow shell, a Jewish Zero, a Hebraic cipher, a vacuum, is flooded inevitably with hostile notions about Jews. The anti-Semite convinces him." We agree with his observation that a "living Judaism" delivers the Jewish man or woman from being a worm, and provides self- respect? Through the achievements of the American Jewish community and the State of Israel, we have learned to be proud of Jewishness. But we are still in danger of hollow pride, which is no substitute for spiritual vision. For when spiritual vision is chauvinism, self- hatred can return. When the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy, Moses tells the people that the Commandments are the wisdom of the Jewish People both in our eyes and in the eyes of other peoples (Deut. 4:6). The Biblical vision is that we Jews are not sustained by pride, but that we become a treasure among the nations, both to ourselves and to others, when we maintain a certain perspective on our relationship with God, the Covenant between us.[3] Covenant, in turn, provides a structure both of perspective and growth for the people, a structure for teaching the people as well as for forgiving them.[4] For if, as Solomon Schechter observed, it is not always easy to love the Jews, we learn to love fellow Jews, and, thereby, to love humanity, through the Covenant. One needs the Covenant, as well, in order to love God. It is the structure for arguing with God, [5] for seeking Him.    II. Indeed, the attitude of self-hatred is but the flipside posture of a second attitude of some Jews about the Jewish People — namely, that we are somehow better than others. When one reads the writings of Rabbi Meir Kahane, for example, one would conclude that Judaism has never learned from other peoples, that, the more Jews live in a vacuum, the more authentic and pure and uncontaminated their Judaism will be. There definitely has been an attitude in certain periods and in certain places that anything Gentile is impure, evil, and un-Jewish, and that Gentiles are, somehow, less moral, less intelligent, less worthy than Jews. It may be true that, in ages past, our ancestors had reason to regard Gentiles as menacing and violent and as morally not as disciplined as they were themselves. That may have been true of certain cultures in which Jews found themselves, but there was never a doctrine in Judaism that, somehow, Jews were born with greater morality and intelligence. Indeed, the Torah makes the point over and over that the people must keep up their fide of the Covenant by obeying God’s commandments and trusting in God. In Hebrew, faith, emunah, means being faithful: both God and Israel must be faithful to the Covenant. The Book of Deuteronomy insists on observing that, when the people of Israel received the commandments, they could not tolerate the Voice of God, and begged Moses to spare them from direct contact with His Voice (Deut. 18:15). An ancient midrash of our Sages says that the experience was so overwhelming that the people literally lost their souls, and God had to revive them.[6] No people was equipped to face the Divine Charge. Another Rabbinic legend says that, when the Israelites came out of Egypt, they were broken-down, blemished, bruised, a sorry bunch after all the years of slavery, with every physical affliction. God had to heal them on the spot so that they would be up to what happened at Sinai (Numbers Rabbah 7:1). The implication is that they were not chosen because they were super people or in any way perfect specimens. Indeed, God found them an appropriate vehicle (Deut. 7:7), so that no one would believe that they were powerful and cleve/enough to develop an advanced culture on their own which might be ascribed to them instead of to God. As for Gentiles, our tradition maintained that, through the Covenant that God made with Noah, they were expected to lead moral lives and to shun idolatry, and that all who lived decent lives would have salvation and Divine support.[7] There is no competition between Jews and Gentiles to see who is more moral. The role of Israel was to point the way, but not to corner the market on morality and wisdom. Indeed, the Torah reading in which the Ten Commandments appear is named after Jethro, Moses’ father- in-law, who is described as pious and God-fearing and who, though he was not Jewish, had much to … read more »

Response:

Question:

(Graeme Robertson) writes: No no, you got it all wrong!  Yes all of you! Tight forestay in lightwinds, ease it out as the wind increases. The reason… simple, tight forestay (and therefore backstay)bends the boat around the mast step (ie the keel) this meaning you have less waterline length (less wetted surface) which is good in the light, and as you ease it, the boat will straighten out and you return to normal waterline length. Well, that is what I am told happened on the NZ 37s here in NZ anyway! Have a good day! Scamp

So THAT’s why there are these big cracks in the fore and aft ends of my keel! And here I thought it was just big lead-eating crabs!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Owen Beckley) writes: | The other thing that reducing the headstay sag will do (tightening the running | backstay on a fractional; permanent backstay on a masthead rig) is close the | slot between jib and main. Careful.  On a masthead rig, tightening the backstay (beyond the point where the headstay is quite tight) bends the mast.  This shortens the distance between masthead and deck.  Since the jib luff distance is constant and is now stretched between a two points closer together, the jib/main slot opens up rather than closes.  If you want to keep the slot the same, whenever the backstay is tightened a significant amount, the jib must also be sheeted in.

Yes, geometrically analogous to moving the jib lead.

Response:

| The other thing that reducing the headstay sag will do (tightening the running | backstay on a fractional; permanent backstay on a masthead rig) is close the | slot between jib and main. Careful.  On a masthead rig, tightening the backstay (beyond the point where the headstay is quite tight) bends the mast.  This shortens the distance between masthead and deck.  Since the jib luff distance is constant and is now stretched between a two points closer together, the jib/main slot opens up rather than closes.  If you want to keep the slot the same, whenever the backstay is tightened a significant amount, the jib must also be sheeted in. The dangerous part comes when a large amount of backstay is let off.  If the jib is not eased, you can end up poking a spreader through it.

Response:

The dangerous part comes when a large amount of backstay is let off.  If the jib is not eased, you can end up poking a spreader through it.

        Not to mention tearing out your main leach.  Drop the traveller, sheet in tight, and crank on as much vang as you can get.  Then tighten the backstay and suddenly you notice you can sheet and vang in some more.  Once you do that, you notice you can get some more backstay on.  Go through a couple of cycles of this.  Now, if you blow the backstay without easing the mainsheet and vang, all that tension that used to be in your backstay will be taken up by the main leach, which I’m willing to bet isn’t strong enough to take the load. — Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016, USA "This never happened to Bart Simpson."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | The other thing that reducing the headstay sag will do (tightening the running | backstay on a fractional; permanent backstay on a masthead rig) is close the | slot between jib and main. Careful.  On a masthead rig, tightening the backstay (beyond the point where the headstay is quite tight) bends the mast.  This shortens the distance between masthead and deck.  Since the jib luff distance is constant and is now stretched between a two points closer together, the jib/main slot opens up rather than closes.  If you want to keep the slot the same, whenever the backstay is tightened a significant amount, the jib must also be sheeted in. The dangerous part comes when a large amount of backstay is let off.  If the jib is not eased, you can end up poking a spreader through it.

No no, you got it all wrong!  Yes all of you! Tight forestay in lightwinds, ease it out as the wind increases. The reason… simple, tight forestay (and therefore backstay)bends the boat around the mast step (ie the keel) this meaning you have less waterline length (less wetted surface) which is good in the light, and as you ease it, the boat will straighten out and you return to normal waterline length. Well, that is what I am told happened on the NZ 37s here in NZ anyway! Have a good day! Scamp — NZ TSSC Ltd, Wellington,  |  64 4 472-6947 (voice) 64 4 4736-840 (fax) –                            64 6 350-7004 (voice until April 23) "New Zealand, a country where men are men and mountains are nervous".

Response:

  rigged J29s also have bendy spars. Is there something I’m missing?

No, you’re not.  On a masthead rig, permanent backstay bends the mast, and you use the checkstays (aka running backstays) to REMOVE whatever bend you don’t want. This set up is not quite as adjustable as a fractionally rigged one, however. You can’t get a slack forestay and a bent mast, a somewhat rare combination, unless you add a baby stay—a control which attaches about 1/2 way up the mast and half way between the forestay and the mast.  It seems baby stays are no longer hip, and one can only presume that they were rarely used.  I know our main started looking a lot better last season after OUR baby stay broke—unfortunately, we’ve fixed it for this season :^) Also, you can’t really depower the leech of the mainsail with the permanent backstay on a mast head rig the way you can on a fractional one.  You have use the sheet and the traveller. Steph

Response:

Dennis Bartley writes in reply to Will Howard’s assertion that on a masthead boat the main can’t really be shaped by backstay: I’ve seen this assertion several times and don’t really understand it… I’de bet masthead rigged J29s also have bendy spars.  Is there something I’m missing?

Dennis, I agree with you.  I’m mainsail trimmer on an Express 37, which has a masthead rig, and I’m here to tell you that you can indeed shape the main with the backstay.  With about 3500 pounds hydraulic pressure on the backstay, I can "blade it out" so flat that it provides practically no pressure on the helm, even in gusts up to or over 35 knots.  Now the Express 37 has double lower shrouds, forward and aft, which provide triangulated support to the middle of the mast.  With that configuration of standing rigging, a shortened backstay (with rod rigging it doesn’t stretch) the masthead is moved aft while the middle of the mast is held fast.  The effect is an aft bending of the upper mast and a forward bending of the lower mast, pivoted around the attachment point of the lower spreaders.  The shortened backstay naturally tightens the headstay. Other boats with single lower shrouds probably won’t do that as effectively. In order to get the proper headstay tension AND proper mainsail shape, I have to apply running backstay.  In light air that can be a bigger problem than in heavy air, because with the "softer" headstay required in light air, I can’t flatten the main enough and it ends up a little too full.  Oh, well, we all have to make our compromises.  Besides, on San Francisco Bay, light air is seldom a problem.  | Lee Wood                    / /              ||                   |  | Financial Manager          / /               ||                  |  | Division of Cardiovascular Medicine          ||                   |  | Stanford University      / /                 ||                  |  | Mains’l Trimmer      /   "Standard Disclaimer"                   / |  |                         |   /           |        /                 |

Response:

| | You can’t get a slack forestay and a bent mast, a somewhat rare | combination, unless you add a baby stay—a control which attaches | about 1/2 way up the mast and half way between the forestay and the | mast.  It seems baby stays are no longer hip, and one can only presume | that they were rarely used.  I know our main started looking a lot | better last season after OUR baby stay broke—unfortunately, we’ve | fixed it for this season :^) | Lots of older boats have baby stays.  My Morgan 30/2 and an Irwin 41 I have crewed on both have baby stays.  The Irwin baby stay adjuster is hydraulic and you can get *all* the mast bend you want.  In fact we got so much one time that the mast is now the club flag pole.  We don’t have a baby stay on it in this configuration . The real bummer with a baby stay is that it must be taken off (on my boat) and secured to the mast when running or else gybing the pole is a bitch. I really hate to remove the pole from the track to gybe. Dave Rogers                                                     M & R Software, Inc. On contract to: NEC America, Radio Software Dept Don’t take life too seriously; you’re not going to get out of it alive anyway.

Response:

Well, for fractional rigs (So much for exact comparison) I use headstay length, once it’s close as a trim for weather helm. We try to set Recursion’s headstay so we have light weather helm with the rest of the rig/sailplan neutural in about 12 knots during spring and fall and for about 6-8 knots in mid summer (light air on  Long Island Sound) For us, that’s a move of about 2 turns out on the turnbuckle come ligt air. We get neutural helm in very light air during the spring and and have to depower a touch early in heavy air with the light air settings. (We should probably tweak the headstay on race days, but… it’s a small effect) My feeling is that you want to get the rig "right" and then tinker with headstay tension for weather helm, till the rigs balanced for the air you tend to sail int. David W. Levine      – IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center My Opinions, IBM’s hardware. — light

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .. Secondly, how should we get the proper tension?  The boat has a masthead rig, so tensioning the backstay presumably tightens the forestay, but of course it also bends the mast and therefore pulls the luff of the main forward, flattening the sail and depowering it a bit.  Is there a good rule of thumb here for how tight to make it? .. On a masthead rig, the backstay tightens the headstay, but as you say, also bends the mast, flattening the main. Running backstays are used to pull the excess bend back out of the mast.  Runners are a pain, of course, but that’s the price of being able to control headstay tension and mast bend separately.   On fractional rigs, btw, the sitation is opposite.  The permanent backstay bends the mast, the runners tension the headstay.   As for how tight to make the headstay, talk to the sailmaker; sails are designed with the controls available on the boat in mind.  Which means they are designed differently, accounting for _some_ of the variance in opinion you have noticed. Bill Courington

IMHO, Bill is right on here.  Only the designer of the sail can really tell you how much sag there should be in your forstay for a given condition.  You should be aware, however, that many of the local lofts for national brand name sails buy pre cut panels and then simply build the sail for you.  The dssign is often done by someone in the main office.  MOreover, I have found that some of the local guys really don’t have a clue as to how some of the sails they build are supposed to be set.  So, while your first step should be to ask the guy who built the sail you can’t simply depend on his opinion.  If you sail one designs, or if there is a boat like yours that races locally, you might want to get the sail maker to show you how he thinks the sails should be set and then see how your boat speed matches up with the other boat as a trial horse.   Anyway, the question of which is faster is not an easy one, but as a general rule to work by, reducing the headstay tension and or the halyard tension will increese the draft of the sail which you want to do in conditons where the wind is lighter then the conditons for which the sail was designed or in choppy conditons with a steady breeze.  As the sail gets overpowered you will want to increese the halyard and forestay tension.  However, as other people have mentioned, messing about with the forstay tension also effects the rake and bend of the mast and thus complicates tings muchly…   Finally, the reason that you are getting such strange answers from us J24 types is because we have to make do with only one genoa and one jib and we don’t have runners to play with.  So, in light weather we generally sail with a lot of sag because we are trying to power-up a genny made to be really good in heavy #1 conditons for you mast-head types…  In your less restricted world you will not have to do such radical tweeking. -tom. —

Response:

Ah. I didn’t realize J/24s were so strange. For NY-36s (Fairly conventional Fractional rig) the standard inventory is three normal genoas, plus a storm jib and possibly some other odd ends. Some folks add at least 1 or two more genoas. Recursion’s inventory of genoas is:         1M  0-16 apparent         2   14-22 apparent         3   20-? apparent For each sail, we start with essentially no runner tension and lots of headstay sag. As the breeze pipes up, we grind in runner, until we’re near the top end of each sail, when we’ve got things quite taut. We also play with haulyard tension. For the 1 and the 2, we generally work with a visual standard of a "slight bow of sail below the headfoil feeder" We’ve got haulyard marks to for each of the sails, generally a L and H setting is indicated. From the mastheads I’ve played with, this was totally different, since you’re much more limited in what you can do to play with headstay tension, but you can play the backstay if you’ve got an adjuster. I’ll let some current masthead racers comment on that, tho. David W. Levine      – IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center My Opinions, IBM’s hardware. —

Response:

to windward) in light to moderate air (5-10 kn), do we want the forestay tight or loose?  Secondly, how should we get the proper tension?  The boat has a

I don’t see how it could be other than "tight". masthead rig, so tensioning the backstay presumably tightens the forestay, but of course it also bends the mast and therefore pulls the luff of the main forward, flattening the sail and depowering it a bit.  Is there a good rule of

 ^^^^^^^ Don’t you mean aft, therefore bellying the sail, and increasing power? What’s a good book for this kind of stuff?  I’ve read "Sail Power," which everyone tells me is the classic on sail shape, but to my distress it’s completely silent about stay tension.

I recommend an article in the latest issue of Cruising World, on just this subject. AT&T Paradyne, LG-132           Phone: (813) 530-8605 8545 – 126th Avenue, North      Gulfstar 37, aft cockpit Largo, FL, 34649-2826           She’s old and she’s creaky, but she holds!

Response:

I don’t see how it [the forestay] could be other than "tight".

        Easy.  At rest, the forestay isn’t really holding the mast up.  If the mast is tightly chocked at the deck and the base is firmly bolted down on the keelstep, these things, and the shrouds, are basically what holds the mast up.  The forestay can be so loose that it flops around; it is (at least in light air) more a lateral support for the jib luff than a fore/aft support for the mast.  Of course, in heavy air, the forestay tensions up and helps keep the mast from falling backwards, but not in light air.         That’s basically the way it works on a fractional rig.  I don’t see any fundamental reason why it can’t also be true on a masthead, especially if you’ve got fore-and-aft lowers. — Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016, USA "This never happened to Bart Simpson."

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The other thing that reducing the headstay sag will do (tightening the running backstay on a fractional; permanent backstay on a masthead rig) is close the slot between jib and main. So here again you’re trading off pointing for power. There is really a complex interaction among sail (main traveler, jib lead, sheets) and rig adjustment (backstay(s)) that’s difficult to boil down to a one-paragraph "network bite." On a fractional rigged boat of course you have the added ability to control mainsail shape with the permanent backstay (flatten the main and dump the leech by tensoining backstay) or by differentially adjusting the upper and lower running back if you have both (like on a St ar for example). On a masthead boat the main can’t really be shaped by backstay. I also notice some confusion between jib halyard tension and forestay tension – they’re two independent adjustments! Don’t try to take out headstay sag with the jib halyard; likewise don’t use the backstay to tension the jib luff (though it may happen when you tension the backstay anyway).

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Why can’t a masthead rigged boat with a flexible mast be bent (and the main flattened) using the permanent backstay?

        The forestay in a fractional rig acts as a pivot point for the backstay to work against.  Something like this:               <— |               Backstay                   /|                  / |                 /  |                /   | —          Forestay               /<—|              Upper Shrouds              /     |             /      |              /       |             /        |              /     <—|—        Lower Shrouds, Spreaders         /          |              /           |             /            |              /             |             /              |                                |                    |                <—|              Mast step         The diagram is my ascii rendition of a J/24 rig viewed from the side.  This is a fairly typical small boat fractional rig; keel-stepped mast, single swept-back spreaders, uppers attached just below the forestay, lowers right at the spreader bases, adjustable fixed backstay but no runners.  The (unscaled) arrows are the fore-and-aft components of the various force vectors exerted on the mast.  Unfortunately, if you’re viewing this on a 24-line screen, you won’t be able to see all of it at once.  Sorry about that.         Starting from the top, the backstay and forestay forces form a couple (remember freshman physics?) which exert a bending moment on the top section of the mast.  If the backstay and forestay came in at the same height (like on a masthead rig), there’s no bending moment.  Likewise, the uppers pulling aft and the spreader bases pushing forward bend the middle of the mast (the lowers oppose this) and the deck chocks and the mast step exert a bending moment on the lower section (the mast base is stepped aft of its neutral point on purpose to generate this).         This diagram should also make it clear why you can have a slack forestay and not have the mast fall down.  The deck chocks and spreaders push forward; you don’t need the forestay pulling forward as well.  All you need to have a translationally stable system is to have all the forces sum to zero and to have a rotationally stable system, all the torques around any pivot point must sum to zero as well.  It’s easy to imagine a set of backstay, upper, lower, spreader, deck, and step forces that meet those conditions with the forestay slack.         What I havn’t included in the diagram are the elastic forces produced by bending of the mast, but that quickly gets very complicated and you probably can’t do it accurately without taking into account other factors like compression loading on the mast (not only from the external rigging, but from the internal halyards as well), the distributed force of the main luff, the compression force of the main boom, and I’m sure a myriad of other factors which I’ve totally ignored here.  And that’s only the static analysis.  I’ll leave the transient analysis to somebody else. — Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016, USA "This never happened to Bart Simpson."

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OK, I’m going to look REAL ignorant, here, but please bear with me. I crew for a relatively new racer, just standard Wednesday night stuff.  He has a very nice 26-foot racing sloop with a bendy mast, and we have run into the following incredible (to me) controversy:  for the best point (= the best speed to windward) in light to moderate air (5-10 kn), do we want the forestay tight or loose?  Secondly, how should we get the proper tension?  The boat has a masthead rig, so tensioning the backstay presumably tightens the forestay, but of course it also bends the mast and therefore pulls the luff of the main forward, flattening the sail and depowering it a bit.  Is there a good rule of thumb here for how tight to make it? What has me REALLY puzzled is that different people in our racing club give OPPOSITE answers to the fundamental question!!! Some (particularly J-24 sailors, so the comparision isn’t direct because of the fractional rig) say a loose forestay is better, some say a tight one, and there is also lots of controversy about jib luff tension — at least I have some idea of how to adjust that on the fly by looking at the draft position. What’s a good book for this kind of stuff?  I’ve read "Sail Power," which everyone tells me is the classic on sail shape, but to my distress it’s completely silent about stay tension.                                         Bill Williams                                         St. Mary’s College of Maryland

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