Question:

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company makes stuff that is purchased by other companies.  Some distribute the stuff, others put my stuff into their stuff and sell it that way.  On occassion, we will provide incentives for the sales people at one of our accounts.  It’s usually an incentive for the top sales reps, for example.  Sometimes we let the company administer the incentive to their sales folks, where we issue a check to the company for the total incentive cost, and the individual sales reps receive the incentive in their paychecks.  Other times, I pay it directly to the individual sales reps. I recently administered an incentive, where we gave bank certificates directly to the sales reps at one of our customers.  My accounting manager said that this is against "accounting rules," as I am not able to provide a cash incentive directly to the employee of one of our accounts. I understand the IRS guidelines/statutes relating to cash and cash equivalent awards, and the need to provide a 1099 if the total awards for the year exceed "X" dollars for an individual.  What I don’t understand is this "accounting rule" my accounting manager is referring to.  They claim: 1.  I can’t give a cash incentive to someone that is not directly employed by my company.

Sure you can.  Car companies do it all the time. 2.  A sales person at one of our accounts is not providing my company with a "service," so I can’t pay them an individual incentive.

They sell your studd (albeit through their employer) 3.  I must pay the company, and let them administer the incentive to their sales reps.

That’s probably the preferable method, but I’ve seen it done the other way many more times. 4.  "If we get audited, I have to show that a service was performed".

The sales records? I’m no CPA, but this just doesn’t sound logical to me.  It sounds like a personal guideline, rather than a generally accepted accounting principal or rule….

As long as you have the proper documentation, and you follow your established guidelines (no having your entire golf partners "win" a free golf trip), then things should be OK. If you are talking about huge amounts, you may need to run things by your company attorney to be sure you are following all the legal rules (if any apply). — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

Greetings, My company makes stuff that is purchased by other companies.  Some distribute the stuff, others put my stuff into their stuff and sell it that way.  On occassion, we will provide incentives for the sales people at one of our accounts.  It’s usually an incentive for the top sales reps, for example.  Sometimes we let the company administer the incentive to their sales folks, where we issue a check to the company for the total incentive cost, and the individual sales reps receive the incentive in their paychecks.  Other times, I pay it directly to the individual sales reps.   I recently administered an incentive, where we gave bank certificates directly to the sales reps at one of our customers.  My accounting manager said that this is against "accounting rules," as I am not able to provide a cash incentive directly to the employee of one of our accounts. I understand the IRS guidelines/statutes relating to cash and cash equivalent awards, and the need to provide a 1099 if the total awards for the year exceed "X" dollars for an individual.  What I don’t understand is this "accounting rule" my accounting manager is referring to.  They claim: 1.  I can’t give a cash incentive to someone that is not directly employed by my company. 2.  A sales person at one of our accounts is not providing my company with a "service," so I can’t pay them an individual incentive. 3.  I must pay the company, and let them administer the incentive to their sales reps. 4.  "If we get audited, I have to show that a service was performed". I’m no CPA, but this just doesn’t sound logical to me.  It sounds like a personal guideline, rather than a generally accepted accounting principal or rule….

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, My company makes stuff that is purchased by other companies.  Some distribute the stuff, others put my stuff into their stuff and sell it that way.  On occassion, we will provide incentives for the sales people at one of our accounts.  It’s usually an incentive for the top sales reps, for example.  Sometimes we let the company administer the incentive to their sales folks, where we issue a check to the company for the total incentive cost, and the individual sales reps receive the incentive in their paychecks.  Other times, I pay it directly to the individual sales reps. I recently administered an incentive, where we gave bank certificates directly to the sales reps at one of our customers.  My accounting manager said that this is against "accounting rules," as I am not able to provide a cash incentive directly to the employee of one of our accounts. I understand the IRS guidelines/statutes relating to cash and cash equivalent awards, and the need to provide a 1099 if the total awards for the year exceed "X" dollars for an individual.  What I don’t understand is this "accounting rule" my accounting manager is referring to.  They claim: 1.  I can’t give a cash incentive to someone that is not directly employed by my company. 2.  A sales person at one of our accounts is not providing my company with a "service," so I can’t pay them an individual incentive. 3.  I must pay the company, and let them administer the incentive to their sales reps. 4.  "If we get audited, I have to show that a service was performed". I’m no CPA, but this just doesn’t sound logical to me.  It sounds like a personal guideline, rather than a generally accepted accounting principal or rule….

you could ask to see a copy of the applicable accounting rule but I don’t think you will get one.  Payments to a distributor’s salesperson or agent is actually common in some industries and this is expensed as marketing commissions or fees.  It is true if the payments total more than ($600?) a 1099 has to be issued.  There are also guidelines for good internal accounting controls such as the plan should be written and approved by the board, payments approved, etc.

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Question:

It only took 100 deaths….imagine if this was a pharmaceutical????? U.S. to Ban Dietary Supplement Ephedra By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON – The Bush administration has decided to ban the herbal weight-loss supplement ephedra from the marketplace because of concerns about its effects on health, government officials said Tuesday. Related Links . Ephedra Factsheet (NIH) In Yahoo! Health  Chronic Heartburn Need Relief? —- More from Yahoo! Health: .  Check Your Symptoms .  How Is It Diagnosed? .  Available Treatments Health and Human Services (news – web sites) Secretary Tommy Thompson and Food and Drug Administration (news – web sites) chief Mark McClellan were to announce the ban at a midday news conference, the officials said, speaking only on condition of anonymity. The ban is likely to be met with litigation from manufacturers who dispute the agency’s assertion that ephedra, which was blamed in the death of a professional baseball player earlier this year, is a health risk. The government ban, one of the first involving a dietary supplement, comes after Thompson this summer urged Congress to rewrite a law that rolled back dietary-supplement regulations and to require manufacturers to acknowledge potential side effects. Ephedra has been linked to as many as 100 deaths, officials have said. And Congress gathered testimony from families of people who are believed to have died from its side effects. Among those who testified were the parents of Baltimore Orioles pitcher Steve Bechler, who died during spring training last February while trying to lose weight. Toxicology tests showed ephedra in his system. Executives of several companies that make ephedra-based products have said that studies have proven that they are safe when used properly. "Anyone who has read our label knows that we go to great lengths to inform our customers about the proper use of our products," said Russell Schreck, chief executive officer of San Diego-based nutritional supplement-maker Metabolife International. "We make it quite clear on our label that the ephedra products are not to be sold or used by minors and that customers with certain pre-existing medical conditions should ‘consult a physician before product use’." But several scientists said that it was impossible to prove whether ephedra was safe because studies screen out participants who have health problems – the people most likely to be hurt by the product. The General Accounting Office (news – web sites), Congress’ investigative arm, looked into the issue and found many people who reported problems had followed the label’s instructions. The FDA had proposed warning labels and dosage limits for dietary supplements with ephedra back in 1997, but then withdrew the proposal after complaints from the industry and members of Congress. In 2001, the National Football League banned its players from using ephedra as a dietary supplement.

Response:

It only took 100 deaths….imagine if this was a pharmaceutical?????

Terrible! Just like guns don’t kill people, Ephedra kills noone. Misuse, greed, ignorance is what has killed the so 100 users. Ephedra has a long history of use in Traditional Chinese Medicine. The herb, Ma Huang, is only used under certain conditions and for only patients who’s pattern of disharmony fits the use for the herb. Also it should be noted that Ma Huang is never used alone. Most formulas in CM are a composite of various herbs which work in a synergistic fashion. Ma huang has never been used as a weight control supplement nor as a substance to improve athletic activities. It’s traditional use has been for some types of colds and in some cases of water retention. New York State had already banned the use of the substance except when prescribed by licensed practitioners. The new law should be fought. Today is Ephedra. What’s it going to be tomorrow? Fernando Bernall, AP

Response:

It only took 100 deaths….imagine if this was a pharmaceutical????? Terrible! Just like guns don’t kill people, Ephedra kills noone. Misuse, greed, ignorance is what has killed the so 100 users.

Actually, no, that is not true and you know it. You do not have any basis for knowing the precise circumstances of the of the nearly 17,000 or so people who have died or have had serious health consequnces. See: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usephedra1230,0,321… "The FDA now has more than 16,000 health complaints and reports of 155 deaths." The simple truth is that ephedra is a drug, and should be regulated Ephedra has a long history of use in Traditional Chinese Medicine. The herb, Ma Huang, is only used under certain conditions and for only patients who’s pattern of disharmony fits the use for the herb. Also it should be noted that Ma Huang is never used alone. Most formulas in CM are a composite of various herbs which work in a synergistic fashion. Ma huang has never been used as a weight control supplement nor as a substance to improve athletic activities. It’s traditional use has been for some types of colds and in some cases of water retention.

So what? When it is sold as a "safe", "all natural" dietary supplement" it lulls people into thinking that it is harmless. However, it is far from that. New York State had already banned the use of the substance except when prescribed by licensed practitioners.

I know. I helped in that effort. The new law should be fought.

Nope. Amending the DSHEA should be pushed forward with all deliberate speed. The unregulated supplement industry should be mandated to report all complaints about their products to the FDA. They are selling chemicals and their advertising does not adequately warn people that they can be dangerous. Today is Ephedra. What’s it going to be tomorrow?

Hopefully amending the DSHEA to allow the FDA to move more expeditiously to protect the health of Americans.

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Question:

Actually I like your subject line except I can improve upon it. Re: NeuroticReport-Science Well that is what we got around here what with all of the amalgamitis scare. Hey! Whatcha think about asbestos poisoning? Real or just below mercury scare in harm? Joel What comes from exposure to Hg. Vanja Karlsson Sweden. NeuroReport Retrograde degeneration of neurite membrane structural integrity of nerve growth cones following in vitro exposure to mercury Christopher C.W. Leong, Naweed I. Syed, and Fritz L. Lorscheider

– Joel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA STANDARD DISCLAIMER applies: <You fill it in

Response:

What comes from exposure to Hg. Vanja Karlsson

Do you mean exposrue to Hg alone or exposure to Hg plus exposure to Jan Drew? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sweden. NeuroReport Retrograde degeneration of neurite membrane structural integrity of nerve growth cones following in vitro exposure to mercury Christopher C.W. Leong, Naweed I. Syed, and Fritz L. Lorscheider Contact: Dr Fritz L. Lorscheider, Faculty of Medicine, Department of Physiology and Biophysics, University of Calgary, 3330 Hospital Drive NW, Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2N 4N1 NeuroReport Volume 12, number 4, 733-737 This study showed that mercury can cause neurodegeneration in the brain central ring ganglia of the snail Lymnaea stagnalis. The resultant defective microtubule assembly and the aggregation of neurofibrils observed can also be found in the brains of Alzheimer

Question:

Ok, so I have a sole proprietorship and I need to spend some of the money I made.  How exactly do I transfer the money to myself on the books, or do I need too?  Yes I am going to talk to my accountant, but I am setting up simply accounting as much as I can right now and I am not sure about this. I am thinking that I would just transfer it to myself as a non business related expense…

On the company books you would Credit cash and Debit owner’s drawing or owner’s capital. Regards, Bill

Response:

Would the owners capital be in the equity division? That’s where I have an account setup under my name, with how much cash I have on me being the total. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, so I have a sole proprietorship and I need to spend some of the money I made.  How exactly do I transfer the money to myself on the books, or do I need too?  Yes I am going to talk to my accountant, but I am setting up simply accounting as much as I can right now and I am not sure about this. I am thinking that I would just transfer it to myself as a non business related expense… On the company books you would Credit cash and Debit owner’s drawing or owner’s capital. Regards, Bill

Response:

Incase it helps, here is a list of expense accounts that I could use in simply accounting : Expense.  A generic expense account that covers all expenses. Cost of Goods Sold.  The cost of your inventory. Operating Expense.  Expenses other than the cost of inventory incurred during the regular operation of your business. General & Administrative Expense.  Amount spent for administration and other general expenses. Amortization & Depreciation Expense.  The estimated loss in value of an asset over time or from use. Bad Debt Expense.  Amount lost due to bad debts or the estimated amount of bad debt. Employee Benefits.  Amount spent to cover employee benefits. Payroll Expense.  Amount spent to pay employees. Interest Expense.  Amount spent on interest on debts and liabilities, such as loans. Income Tax Expense.  Amount spent on the income taxes for the business. Non-Operating Expense.  Expenses incurred outside of the regular operation of a business. Loss.  Amounts lost from the sale of a fixed asset, such as the sale of a building. Extraordinary Loss.  Amounts lost from activities over which the business has no control, such as the expropriation of land. SP

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, so I have a sole proprietorship and I need to spend some of the money I made.  How exactly do I transfer the money to myself on the books, or do I need too?  Yes I am going to talk to my accountant, but I am setting up simply accounting as much as I can right now and I am not sure about this. I am thinking that I would just transfer it to myself as a non business related expense… SP

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To simplify, just take your total beginning assets and subtract all your beginning liabilities, and you have left the beginning owners’ equity. Then, for the next accounting cycle, make sure to use your owners’ drawing account properly, e.g. if you take $100 from the business, debit Owners’ Drawing $100 and credit Cash $100.  At the end of the accounting cycle, close the Owners’ Drawing Account to the Owners’ Equity Account. By closing do you mean transfer the total amount over to another equity account?  They are both under equity, correct?

Owner’s Drawing and Owner’s Equity are both equity accounts.  As an example, if over a month’s time you have withdrawn $100 from your business, your Owner’s Drawing Account will have a debit balance of $100.  At the end of the month, you will debit your Owner’s Equity account and credit your Owner’s Drawing Account for $100.  This will empty your drawing account to prepare for next month, and will reduce your Owner’s Equity by $100 so that it is correctly stated.

Response:

To simplify, just take your total beginning assets and subtract all your beginning liabilities, and you have left the beginning owners’ equity. Then, for the next accounting cycle, make sure to use your owners’ drawing account properly, e.g. if you take $100 from the business, debit Owners’ Drawing $100 and credit Cash $100.  At the end of the accounting cycle, close the Owners’ Drawing Account to the Owners’ Equity Account.

By closing do you mean transfer the total amount over to another equity account?  They are both under equity, correct?

Response:

Yes. However, your capital account should start being equal to the amount you contributed to the business. After that, it should (at each year end) have a balance that is determined by profits, losses, additional contributions and withdrawals. I understand this.   To take it one step futher, if you do not know how much you have invested, could you use total of how much money you have in your pocket, and enter this as the opening balance?

To simplify, just take your total beginning assets and subtract all your beginning liabilities, and you have left the beginning owners’ equity. Then, for the next accounting cycle, make sure to use your owners’ drawing account properly, e.g. if you take $100 from the business, debit Owners’ Drawing $100 and credit Cash $100.  At the end of the accounting cycle, close the Owners’ Drawing Account to the Owners’ Equity Account.

Response:

Yes. However, your capital account should start being equal to the amount you contributed to the business. After that, it should (at each year end) have a balance that is determined by profits, losses, additional contributions and withdrawals.

I understand this.   To take it one step futher, if you do not know how much you have invested, could you use total of how much money you have in your pocket, and enter this as the opening balance?

Response:

Yes. However, your capital account should start being equal to the amount you contributed to the business. After that, it should (at each year end) have a balance that is determined by profits, losses, additional contributions and withdrawals. I understand this.   To take it one step futher, if you do not know how much you have invested, could you use total of how much money you have in your pocket, and enter this as the opening balance?

I don’t know what you mean by "how much money you have in your pocket." From my point of view, if it’s in your pocket, then it’s not in the business. Regards, Bill

Response:

Would the owners capital be in the equity division? That’s where I have an account setup under my name, with how much cash I have on me being the total.

Yes. However, your capital account should start being equal to the amount you contributed to the business. After that, it should (at each year end) have a balance that is determined by profits, losses, additional contributions and withdrawals. Regards, Bill

Response:

Ok, so I have a sole proprietorship and I need to spend some of the money I made.  How exactly do I transfer the money to myself on the books, or do I need too?  Yes I am going to talk to my accountant, but I am setting up simply accounting as much as I can right now and I am not sure about this. I am thinking that I would just transfer it to myself as a non business related expense… SP

Response:

Question:

I am going to form a limited partnership, called U-Are-Stuck Ltd.,and invite all of you into this bonanza.  I, of course, will be the general partner – this way as limited partners you guys can limit you liability to the generous amount you have contributed. Please let me know how much you want to contribute as your share – please limited to $10,000 each or $20,000 joint – no marriage penalty here.

I’m going to go in with this Nigerian friend of mine.  Please let me know your account information and I’ll just get the money wired into it directly! Deborah Stevenson

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to form a limited partnership, called U-Are-Stuck Ltd.,and invite all of you into this bonanza.  I, of course, will be the general partner – this way as limited partners you guys can limit you liability to the generous amount you have contributed. Please let me know how much you want to contribute as your share – please limited to $10,000 each or $20,000 joint – no marriage penalty here. I’m going to go in with this Nigerian friend of mine.  Please let me know your account information and I’ll just get the money wired into it directly! Deborah Stevenson

Good answer Deborah  -  of course if you try to draw out over $5 from my account you would lose. John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John Actually, John. You should do the right thing and donate this money to charity. Just contact me and I will begin the steps to make sure that the money you forward to me will reach those it can most benefit. Thank you in advance for your donation (contact your tax consultant for the legalities of deducting this from your reported income). AMOE-ternally yours, alanama — Alana

Actuallyl Alana I have considered all the offers from all my friends on this board and come to my decision. I am going to form a limited partnership, called U-Are-Stuck Ltd.,and invite all of you into this bonanza.  I, of course, will be the general partner – this way as limited partners you guys can limit you liability to the generous amount you have contributed. I plan on asking Richard, with his legal background, to become our attorney, pro-bono of course.  My background, years ago, was accounting so I still remember some of the Enron type tricks so you don’t have to worry about any tax liaibility on your profits – in fact you don’t have to worry about profits.  I know some of you rich Ebayers could use the capital loss I plan on. Please let me know how much you want to contribute as your share – please limited to $10,000 each or $20,000 joint – no marriage penalty here. Alana a ?????  - what is "reported income" – is that that funny figure at the bottom of a Sch. C ????? John

Response:

Hmmm….maybe John should donate his money to my daughter and son-in-law, who are the victims of a teenaged red-light running idiot, and who are being offered fifty cents as the value of their well-maintained, paid-for car. Maybe a trip to www.clarkhoward.com and posting in the forums there may yeild some good advice. According to Clark Howard, the first offer from the insurance is rarely the last, but so many people take it they make out quite well with the strategy.

Thanks…but they’ve done all that and more. They’ve contacted attorneys, and got independent appraisals – and found out that they’ve been offered a very fair amount. It’s just that it’s a financial loss for them, because the amount they’ll get will not buy a decent replacement of the same quality of their paid-for car….and since the other car isn’t paid for, they’re SOL. Now…if she could claim an INJURY, it’d be another story – but who wants to wish that?   Bumps, bruises, contusions, cuts, aches, and pains aren’t (luckily) permanent. I guess the only good thing is that I have an extra car they can borrow, while they pay off the newer car and save to replace Harvey. What’s **really** odd?   Harvey was parked in a lot not far from where that Edmunds character (wanted for questioning in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping) dumped the license plates from the green Saturn.  We keep wondering if we’ll hear Edmunds caught in a Saturn with Utah 530 HRV plates Kris

Response:

Hmmm….maybe John should donate his money to my daughter and son-in-law, who are the victims of a teenaged red-light running idiot, and who are being offered fifty cents as the value of their well-maintained, paid-for car.

Maybe a trip to www.clarkhoward.com and posting in the forums there may yeild some good advice. According to Clark Howard, the first offer from the insurance is rarely the last, but so many people take it they make out quite well with the strategy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John Actually, John. You should do the right thing and donate this money to charity. Just contact me and I will begin the steps to make sure that the money you forward to me will reach those it can most benefit. Thank you in advance for your donation (contact your tax consultant for the legalities of deducting this from your reported income). AMOE-ternally yours, alanama — Alana

Hmmm….maybe John should donate his money to my daughter and son-in-law, who are the victims of a teenaged red-light running idiot, and who are being offered fifty cents as the value of their well-maintained, paid-for car. Or, maybe John can just toss in the fifty cents and they can be done with the insurance company Kris You only get money if you’re injured, not when you’re financially crippled due to someone else’s stupidity.

Response:

Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

Actually, John. You should do the right thing and donate this money to charity. Just contact me and I will begin the steps to make sure that the money you forward to me will reach those it can most benefit. Thank you in advance for your donation (contact your tax consultant for the legalities of deducting this from your reported income). AMOE-ternally yours, alanama — Alana "Success is going from one failure to the next without a loss of enthusiasm." —Winston Churchill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

x Just accept all offers. Then if you have any money left over please send it to me. PJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

Pssst, John…. The eighth word over is a promise Kris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward

John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris

Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

Response:

Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John

Response:

Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John

John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward

Response:

Question:

(The fully postquoted scam deleted) Dear Chris, That is very commendable. Please, however, do not aggravate the situation by repeating the entire scam. More on this facet at  Of proper quoting  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/quote.html    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Timo’s  FAQ  materials  at   http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PAYING OFF YOUR DEBTS READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE! IT DOES WORK! I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: "what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right?" Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!?… within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $ 900.00! In the third week I had over $8,000.00 and it’s still growing.. It’s certainly worth $6.00,and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell youhow this works and most importantly, WHY it works… Also, make sure youprint a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy! Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It’s easy. It’s legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage) IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is 99% no risk – it really works! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends. PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from people like you and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal. Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) David Freeman 11045 Harbour Springs Circle Boca Raton, Fl 33428 #2) Brian Carlson 177 Nataqua Ave. Pacifica, CA #3) H. Gulley 2818 Sherman Rd. Portsmouth, OH 45662 #4) Pat Webb 4527 Hayes St. (Rear) Calumet Township, In 46408 #5) R Mayes 3821 N. 15th Drive Phoenix AZ 85015 #6) M Wolfe 1123 SW Liggett Ct Blue Springs MO  64015 STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! You won’t get very much unless you post like crazy. This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select ‘copy’ from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computer’s memory. Step 2) Open a blank ‘notepad’ file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the ‘edit’ menu select ‘paste’. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different settings, you’ll always have this file to go back to. Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.) Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post message button. You’re done with your first one! Congratulations…THAT’S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That’s it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.** Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $625.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00! With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so… People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work.

Response:

Question:

question for the accounting experts out there. HOW DO I track a tax id??? in other words to know to whom a particular Tax ID belongs and when that tax ID account was opened????

Response:

question for the accounting experts out there. HOW DO I track a tax id??? in other words to know to whom a particular Tax ID belongs and when that tax ID account was opened????

That information is confidential. You cannot legally obtain it.

Response:

Credit verification companies (TRW, Expedita) obtain and track 100+ million of Americans. For business ID try Dunn & Bradstreet reports.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – question for the accounting experts out there. HOW DO I track a tax id??? in other words to know to whom a particular Tax ID belongs and when that tax ID account was opened???? That information is confidential. You cannot legally obtain it.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Says who? The FAA inspector who finds out. I used to work with an instructor who was absolutely certain he was going to get his ATP as soon as he met the age requirement.  He wasn’t flying much, though, and got a little creative in the way he logged time – things like putting his signature over other instructors’ signatures in the logbooks of people he flew with.  He irritated a couple of people a little bit too much, and they whispered a few words in the right places.  The last time I checked, his commercial certificate had been revoked.

That isn’t quite the same as "finding out that anything on your logbook is wrong."  An honest mistake also means that something is "wrong" in your logbook.  That is hardly the same as fraud. Matt

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Says who? The FAA inspector who finds out. I used to work with an instructor who was absolutely certain he was going to get his ATP as soon as he met the age requirement.  He wasn’t flying much, though, and got a little creative in the way he logged time – things like putting his signature over other instructors’ signatures in the logbooks of people he flew with.  He irritated a couple of people a little bit too much, and they whispered a few words in the right places.  The last time I checked, his commercial certificate had been revoked.

Falsifying records for the purposes of a rating or currency is one thing – it’s covered by the regs and is clearly grounds for revocation or suspension. The statement that " If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them." is another matter altogether.

Response:

If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Says who?

The FAA inspector who finds out. I used to work with an instructor who was absolutely certain he was going to get his ATP as soon as he met the age requirement.  He wasn’t flying much, though, and got a little creative in the way he logged time – things like putting his signature over other instructors’ signatures in the logbooks of people he flew with.  He irritated a couple of people a little bit too much, and they whispered a few words in the right places.  The last time I checked, his commercial certificate had been revoked.

Response:

I was just there last month, I seem to remember a $12 landing fee, plus a handling fee that was waived with fuel. Here’s some shots of the field and area if your interested. http://www.csolutions.net/scoleman/meigs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did they charge you a landing fee at Meigs?  Several years ago, while on a CME in Chicago, I went over to Midway and rented a 182RG.  All I wanted to do was go to Meigs, for the "cool factor" you mentioned, and the chaperone from the rental place told me we shouldn’t land, as they charged quite a bit.  The tower was cool:  "Sure, you can do a low pass.  Be sure to put you gear down in case you misjudge and touch.  Have a nice day."  I had my guy take Polaroids of the approach.  As Microsoft would say, "As real as it gets." Regards, John I was never told I needed to get my logbook signed on any pre-license X-C flights. My examiner said nothing about that. And you absolutely don’t need that after you get your license. A honor system is used. If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Marcelo Pacheco PP-ASEL IFR Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries? I don’t know if you’re required to, but I make it a habit of getting everyone to sign/initial/stamp the log book. Partly because I want the instructor’s license number on the log book, just in case. Other reasons: it’s nice to have places like "Miegs" stamped in your log book. Just the child in me liking the "Cool" factor. Oh, and it helps when examiners look.

Response:

I was just there last month, I seem to remember a $12 landing fee, plus a handling fee that was waived with fuel. Here’s some shots of the field and area if your interested. http://www.csolutions.net/scoleman/meigs

Really enjoyed your photographs, Streve. I’m a member of the Meigs support group, but have never been to the airport. Tell me something. I have heard that the eastern terminus of the old Route 66 is the Chicago downtown street that butts up to the airport much like the western end stops at the Santa Monica pier. Is that correct? Joiner Cartwright, Jr. Houston, Texas

Response:

Did they charge you a landing fee at Meigs?  Several years ago, while on a CME in Chicago, I went over to Midway and rented a 182RG.  All I wanted to do was go to Meigs, for the "cool factor" you mentioned, and the chaperone from the rental place told me we shouldn’t land, as they charged quite a bit.  The tower was cool:  "Sure, you can do a low pass.  Be sure to put you gear down in case you misjudge and touch.  Have a nice day."  I had my guy take Polaroids of the approach.  As Microsoft would say, "As real as it gets."

I don’t know about Miegs, but at the few airports around here (National and Dulles) that charge landing fees.  You don’t owe one until you leave the movement area.  You can do full stops until ATC tells you to go away.

Response:

Sounds like you rented from our filght school.  Not only does Meigs charge a landing fee, but there is also a handling fee unless you buy a minimum amount of fuel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did they charge you a landing fee at Meigs?  Several years ago, while on a CME in Chicago, I went over to Midway and rented a 182RG.  All I wanted to do was go to Meigs, for the "cool factor" you mentioned, and the chaperone from the rental place told me we shouldn’t land, as they charged quite a bit.  The tower was cool:  "Sure, you can do a low pass.  Be sure to put you gear down in case you misjudge and touch.  Have a nice day."  I had my guy take Polaroids of the approach.  As Microsoft would say, "As real as it gets." Regards, John I was never told I needed to get my logbook signed on any pre-license X-C flights. My examiner said nothing about that. And you absolutely don’t need that after you get your license. A honor system is used. If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Marcelo Pacheco PP-ASEL IFR Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries? I don’t know if you’re required to, but I make it a habit of getting everyone to sign/initial/stamp the log book. Partly because I want the instructor’s license number on the log book, just in case. Other reasons: it’s nice to have places like "Miegs" stamped in your log book. Just the child in me liking the "Cool" factor. Oh, and it helps when examiners look.

Response:

Went in to Meigs in a 182RG on 11/22/00 and was charged $21.00. I was on the ground for 10min. Most expensive bathroom stop I ever made. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did they charge you a landing fee at Meigs?  Several years ago, while on a CME in Chicago, I went over to Midway and rented a 182RG.  All I wanted to do was go to Meigs, for the "cool factor" you mentioned, and the chaperone from the rental place told me we shouldn’t land, as they charged quite a bit.  The tower was cool:  "Sure, you can do a low pass.  Be sure to put you gear down in case you misjudge and touch.  Have a nice day."  I had my guy take Polaroids of the approach.  As Microsoft would say, "As real as it gets." Regards, John I was never told I needed to get my logbook signed on any pre-license X-C flights. My examiner said nothing about that. And you absolutely don’t need that after you get your license. A honor system is used. If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Marcelo Pacheco PP-ASEL IFR Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries? I don’t know if you’re required to, but I make it a habit of getting everyone to sign/initial/stamp the log book. Partly because I want the instructor’s license number on the log book, just in case. Other reasons: it’s nice to have places like "Miegs" stamped in your log book. Just the child in me liking the "Cool" factor. Oh, and it helps when examiners look.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was never told I needed to get my logbook signed on any pre-license X-C flights. My examiner said nothing about that. And you absolutely don’t need that after you get your license. A honor system is used. If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Marcelo Pacheco PP-ASEL IFR Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries?

I don’t know if you’re required to, but I make it a habit of getting everyone to sign/initial/stamp the log book. Partly because I want the instructor’s license number on the log book, just in case. Other reasons: it’s nice to have places like "Miegs" stamped in your log book. Just the child in me liking the "Cool" factor. Oh, and it helps when examiners look.

Response:

Did they charge you a landing fee at Meigs?  Several years ago, while on a CME in Chicago, I went over to Midway and rented a 182RG.  All I wanted to do was go to Meigs, for the "cool factor" you mentioned, and the chaperone from the rental place told me we shouldn’t land, as they charged quite a bit.  The tower was cool:  "Sure, you can do a low pass.  Be sure to put you gear down in case you misjudge and touch.  Have a nice day."  I had my guy take Polaroids of the approach.  As Microsoft would say, "As real as it gets." Regards, John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was never told I needed to get my logbook signed on any pre-license X-C flights. My examiner said nothing about that. And you absolutely don’t need that after you get your license. A honor system is used. If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Marcelo Pacheco PP-ASEL IFR Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries? I don’t know if you’re required to, but I make it a habit of getting everyone to sign/initial/stamp the log book. Partly because I want the instructor’s license number on the log book, just in case. Other reasons: it’s nice to have places like "Miegs" stamped in your log book. Just the child in me liking the "Cool" factor. Oh, and it helps when examiners look.

Response:

I was never told I needed to get my logbook signed on any pre-license X-C flights. My examiner said nothing about that. And you absolutely don’t need that after you get your license. A honor system is used. If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them.

*** There was a case recently where some guy had doubtful stuff in his logbook – a DE judged he had used a bit of creative accounting WRT some complex aircraft time.    The FAA _REVOKED_ all of his certificates.  Bzzt, thank you for playing. Try again…..

Response:

I was never told I needed to get my logbook signed on any pre-license X-C flights. My examiner said nothing about that. And you absolutely don’t need that after you get your license. A honor system is used. If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Marcelo Pacheco PP-ASEL IFR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries? — FLY-BY PP-ASEL NH =======

Response:

If the FAA finds out anything on your logbook is wrong, you’re in big trouble with them. Marcelo Pacheco PP-ASEL IFR

Says who? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries? — FLY-BY PP-ASEL NH =======

Response:

Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries? — FLY-BY PP-ASEL NH =======

Response:

Just wanted to know about those X-country hours (50 nm or greater) before the IFR. Do you need to get your logbook signed at the destination aiport like pre-license X-countries?

Nope.  You didn’t need to get your logbook signed on student cross-countries, either.

Response:

Question:

I hope they gave you a loaner.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week my intrepid started to rattle under the drivers area, I thought it was the exhaust assembly and asked the dealer to check it and realign. It turns out the steering rack had cracked through and I was not allowed to drive it as it was in a dangerous condition. It is now 8 days and Chrysler cannot locate a steering rack in either Canada or the USA. Question: Anyone else had this problem,  causing a run on steering racks or do you think that they do not expect them to breakdown, accounting for the lack of parts back up. Ironically I work about 5 miles from the Brampton Plant where they make Intrepids. Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week my intrepid started to rattle under the drivers area, I thought it was the exhaust assembly and asked the dealer to check it and realign. It turns out the steering rack had cracked through and I was not allowed to drive it as it was in a dangerous condition. It is now 8 days and Chrysler cannot locate a steering rack in either Canada or the USA. Question: Anyone else had this problem,  causing a run on steering racks or do you think that they do not expect them to breakdown, accounting for the lack of parts back up. Ironically I work about 5 miles from the Brampton Plant where they make Intrepids. Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!! I wouldn’t consider for 1 second on paying for this repair.  On a ‘98! I

had  so many problems with my ‘93 I went out and bought a ‘99! Go figure. BUT I did buy the 5 year extended bumper to bumper warranty and lord help them the day I have to use it!

Response:

Last week my intrepid started to rattle under the drivers area, I thought it was the exhaust assembly and asked the dealer to check it and realign. It turns out the steering rack had cracked through and I was not allowed to drive it as it was in a dangerous condition. It is now 8 days and Chrysler cannot locate a steering rack in either Canada or the USA. Question: Anyone else had this problem,  causing a run on steering racks or do you think that they do not expect them to breakdown, accounting for the lack of parts back up. Ironically I work about 5 miles from the Brampton Plant where they make Intrepids. Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!!

Response:

Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!!

Damn!  There ought to be some relief you can from Dodge on that, but I wouldn’t know where to start.  Good Luck!

Response:

I would check in on a competent used auto parts shop. They may be able to locate one for you thru their network, probably for a lot less. — Rich R ditch the go to email me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!! Damn!  There ought to be some relief you can from Dodge on that, but I wouldn’t know where to start.  Good Luck!

Response:

Last week my intrepid started to rattle under the drivers area, I thought it was the exhaust assembly and asked the dealer to check it and realign. It turns out the steering rack had cracked through and I was not allowed to drive it as it was in a dangerous condition. It is now 8 days and Chrysler cannot locate a steering rack in either Canada or the USA. Question: Anyone else had this problem,  causing a run on steering racks or do you think that they do not expect them to breakdown, accounting for the lack of parts back up. Ironically I work about 5 miles from the Brampton Plant where they make Intrepids. Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!!

Response:

Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!!

Damn!  There ought to be some relief you can from Dodge on that, but I wouldn’t know where to start.  Good Luck!

Response:

I would check in on a competent used auto parts shop. They may be able to locate one for you thru their network, probably for a lot less. — Rich R ditch the go to email me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!! Damn!  There ought to be some relief you can from Dodge on that, but I wouldn’t know where to start.  Good Luck!

Response:

I hope they gave you a loaner.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week my intrepid started to rattle under the drivers area, I thought it was the exhaust assembly and asked the dealer to check it and realign. It turns out the steering rack had cracked through and I was not allowed to drive it as it was in a dangerous condition. It is now 8 days and Chrysler cannot locate a steering rack in either Canada or the USA. Question: Anyone else had this problem,  causing a run on steering racks or do you think that they do not expect them to breakdown, accounting for the lack of parts back up. Ironically I work about 5 miles from the Brampton Plant where they make Intrepids. Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week my intrepid started to rattle under the drivers area, I thought it was the exhaust assembly and asked the dealer to check it and realign. It turns out the steering rack had cracked through and I was not allowed to drive it as it was in a dangerous condition. It is now 8 days and Chrysler cannot locate a steering rack in either Canada or the USA. Question: Anyone else had this problem,  causing a run on steering racks or do you think that they do not expect them to breakdown, accounting for the lack of parts back up. Ironically I work about 5 miles from the Brampton Plant where they make Intrepids. Oh the cost of replacement, when the part arrives,is $1550!! I wouldn’t consider for 1 second on paying for this repair.  On a ‘98! I

had  so many problems with my ‘93 I went out and bought a ‘99! Go figure. BUT I did buy the 5 year extended bumper to bumper warranty and lord help them the day I have to use it!

Response:

Question:

Well, I’m just trying to learn to shut up, because it seems like the less I say, the more gets done.  I could be wrong, and really as much as

So far, that strategy is working (well, the last few exchanges have had a strong element of impasse to them). But the time will (hopefully) come when, at the very least, your assent to the negotiated terms will be required. I’d like to think that I’ve got a chance at this and dream about that million dollars, but I’ve yet to see any evidence that Randi is making a legitimate offer, and I seriously doubt that there’ll ever be a real test of his Challenge by me or anyone else. It’s a rigged game.  He had a chance months ago to schedule a test and work out a "protocol". And

Because so much is at stake, I’m willing, pragmatically, to give him the benefit of the doubt on his "traversal," especially now that he’s returned to the bargaining table. who ever heard of a unilateral offer like this one where the applicant has to hire professional judges? WHat should that tell you? We’re like

That’s not exactly true.  It wasn’t Randi’s idea to hire independent judges.  Of course, alternatively he still has to demonstrate that he can come up with free (to you at least) third party personnel that you and he both can trust. bartenders with this man, we’re enabling him to go on with his addiction to denunciation by providing him with fodder. He’s separated himself from the rest of us. I am suddenly struck with the notion that what he needs is a lot of compassion. He may be suffering terribly. I have to work up the strength to love this man . . .unconditionally. I should not expect anything more from him . . .

I’m sure a big salty tear would be rolling down Randi’s cheek right now were he reading this Syd            http://www.escape.ca/~sgb                      Dealing with Depression Naturally                               and other books by Syd Baumel.                                      …and cool record reviews! Okay, let’s look at this realistically. We need 90 days out from today to schedule an event of the type we’re talking about, so even if Randi does cave in and give us a schedule, a reasonable trial of our claim isn’t going to happen for another three months, and that puts us into November.       But until we get a time and a place, this is just all hot air we’re blowing at each other. And secondly, if anyone is going to take his offer seriously, they have to see it in writing with his signature on it.       The Psychic Challenge is not and never has been a legitimate offer from all that I can see of it. It’s an unusual tpe of contract and most attorneys don’t ever see them. Only when he can provide a sginature is it ever going to get any serious attention.  Meanwhile, we can just take potshots at each other. What suprises me is that no one has debunked the debunker. Have we yet to find one legitimate trial of anyone? Yes, I know what Randi says, but that’s all we have, is what Randi says.        The hot button on this case is named Robert Park from Randi.      Try it and see what I mean. Go after the APS for their involvement in this and Randi will be all asses and elbows again. Take the test to them and see what happens. jb My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think?

You’re wrong.  Plenty of people get tested. I want to go on record with this response.  The numbered sections are from Benneth, my comments follow each one. 1. The applicant chooses the source from which the potentized  solutions are created. Source?  Does this mean the tap from which the water is drawn?  Clarify. It sounds like you are saying that you decide what remedy to use right? That’s essential.

Wrong.  It is simply a request for clarification.  Nothing more. 2. The placeboes [sic] are made of the same diluting substance used  to prepare the potencies so that all samples are chemically identical and diluted beyond Avogadro of the mother tincture. "Diluting substance"?  Does this mean water?  SAY what it is. Obviously, it is water and alcohol.

Kim, there’s a million at stake here.  Benneth has shown himself to be a master of doublespeak and obfuscation.  Have you heard of Riley G.’s intention to sue Randi over some nitpicking detail?  Randi’s request is entirely reasonable. Again, you haven’t seen enough Benneth types do their thing yet. 3. Hahnemann Labs of Albany, California (1 888 4 ARNICA) prepares  the 50 samples to be tested, 25 placebos and 25 homeopathically potentized, and their containers are labeled accordingly. Not admissable.  That lab has a very heavy interest in seeing proof of homeopathy.  I would insist that the materials be independently prepared, that portions of both the "potentized" and "non-potentized" material then be submitted to Benneth for his approval, and the test carried out only after his approval is obtained. Okay, big, big problem here. Here JREF has an opportunity to cheat, JB just has to trust them. Unacceptable. Who’s to say that once the potentized material is agreed upon, plain water is sent to JB to perform the actual challenge.  He would have no guarantee of getting a real remedy.

Wrong.  Randi is saying that simply having a lab with a huge stake in the outcome prepare the sample is madness.  It is madness.  And note that Benneth gets to approve the samples beforehand. Also, it is not so easy to make quality remedies. There is no way to do this without remedies manufactured by a good manufacturer. Personally, I would only trust Hahnemann Labs. Specialized equipment is required, especially if you’re talking about high potencies.

That hasn’t been claimed anywhere else that I’m aware of.  That’s not what Hahnemann’s book says.  This isn’t a deal killer.  I don’t believe that the samples will be hard to come by in a manner satisfactory to both parties. Why can’t remedies just be purchased by an independent person under a pseudonym that is unknown to the applicant? That way you would just get the same excellent product that they sell to everyone.

Too many people.  Too easy to cheat.  Again, a million is at stake.  And, don’t forget, cheating is a fair way to win it.  Yes, that’s right.  Randi thinks he can outwit cheaters.  But if he can’t, he still loses.  Fair and square.  Not everybody thinks like you guys. 3 — continued: Two copies are made of each  sample, potentized and non, creating a total of 50 sample sets of three identical  items each, making for a total of 150 items.  After coding is completed, this makes one set of fifty samples for analysis by the claimant, one set of fifty identical samples kept by the referee in the event of a dispute and one set of fifty identical samples for JREF analysis. Overdone, but okay.  But no provision is made here about the "referee." Who or what would that be? The "referee" is a big problem. There’s no way to get someone that will be trusted by both parties.

Wrong.  A major accounting firm would be acceptable.  Like the guys who do the Oscar vote tallying. 5. The coding of the samples is overseen by an independent accounting firm mutually agreed upon by the applicant and JREF. No.  I have no reason to trust an "accounting firm."  We can decide upon a better authority.  Unless, that is, Benneth is prepared to pay a firm like Price, Waterhouse.  In any case, only one person would be involved. Again, there is no way to find an independent person to code the samples that will be mutually agreeable.

Wrong.  Randi clearly states that this can be overcome.  But trusting Hahnemann & Fleiss, Chartered Accountants is a silly idea.  That’s what Randi is saying. Again, think "cheating". 7. Coding is done by several teams of two people each to insure that there are no mistakes or cheating. Again, no.   Videotaping can insure against errors. Huh? He just said no videotaping.

Where? 10. The numerical and alphabetical indexes shall be kept in separate locations mutually agreed on by the applicant and JREF. No.  The single coding will be retained by one trusted person.  There are simple ways to ensure the security.  Making the coding into a complex procedure is not the best way. Agreed, but who can do it?

A major chartered accounting or law firm.   not an acceptable level for the million-dollar prize, but okay for the preliminary test, which is what we’re discussing here. What percent does he want for a formal test? Do we have any idea?

Let Benneth suggest what he can achieve.  It would have to be way less than 1/1000 though.  Prolly 1/100,000 would do. Benneth is fond of redefining the JREF test in his own terms.  He’s welcome to his fantasies, but they do not relate to reality, which is where we’re located.  The procedure above sounds to me to be expensive, but Benneth must be aware of this, and must be prepared to finance the operation.

Exactly. … read more »

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I’m starting off the "digression" thread with a side thread initiated by Kim Birney that doesn’t entirely deserve to be excluded from the main thread, except that it wasn’t part of the direct negotiation thread and it quickly became mostly "digressive" and… It’s getting late.  I hope Kim and Happy Dog, not to mention JB himself, will now post to the main negotiation thread whenever they see fit. Syd Hi John, Syd, HD, My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think? This is my assessment of the Benneth protocol suggestions, which are contained in http://www.marius.net/protocol.html I want to go on record with this response.  The numbered sections are from Benneth, my comments follow each one. 1. The applicant chooses the source from which the potentized  solutions are created. Source?  Does this mean the tap from which the water is drawn?  Clarify.

It sounds like you are saying that you decide what remedy to use right? That’s essential. 2. The placeboes [sic] are made of the same diluting substance used  to prepare the potencies so that all samples are chemically identical and diluted beyond Avogadro of the mother tincture. "Diluting substance"?  Does this mean water?  SAY what it is.

Obviously, it is water and alcohol. 3. Hahnemann Labs of Albany, California (1 888 4 ARNICA) prepares  the 50 samples to be tested, 25 placebos and 25 homeopathically potentized, and their containers are labeled accordingly. Not admissable.  That lab has a very heavy interest in seeing proof of homeopathy.  I would insist that the materials be independently prepared, that portions of both the "potentized" and "non-potentized" material then be submitted to Benneth for his approval, and the test carried out only after his approval is obtained.

Okay, big, big problem here. Here JREF has an opportunity to cheat, JB just has to trust them. Unacceptable. Who’s to say that once the potentized material is agreed upon, plain water is sent to JB to perform the actual challenge.  He would have no guarantee of getting a real remedy. Also, it is not so easy to make quality remedies. There is no way to do this without remedies manufactured by a good manufacturer. Personally, I would only trust Hahnemann Labs. Specialized equipment is required, especially if you’re talking about high potencies. Why can’t remedies just be purchased by an independent person under a pseudonym that is unknown to the applicant? That way you would just get the same excellent product that they sell to everyone. 3 — continued: Two copies are made of each  sample, potentized and non, creating a total of 50 sample sets of three identical  items each, making for a total of 150 items.  After coding is completed, this makes one set of fifty samples for analysis by the claimant, one set of fifty identical samples kept by the referee in the event of a dispute and one set of fifty identical samples for JREF analysis. Overdone, but okay.  But no provision is made here about the "referee." Who or what would that be?

The "referee" is a big problem. There’s no way to get someone that will be trusted by both parties. 4. JREF observes the potentization procedure and preparation of the placeboes at a time of mutual convenience to JREF and the applicant. The procedure is videotaped. Not necessary.  Besides, it provides a loophole for arguing that in some way, JREF interfered with the procedure.  Not admissable.

I agree with Randi on this point. 5. The coding of the samples is overseen by an independent accounting firm mutually agreed upon by the applicant and JREF. No.  I have no reason to trust an "accounting firm."  We can decide upon a better authority.  Unless, that is, Benneth is prepared to pay a firm like Price, Waterhouse.  In any case, only one person would be involved.

Again, there is no way to find an independent person to code the samples that will be mutually agreeable. 6. The coding will be done by multiple teams so as the test is administered by a panel [sic] lay people who have been randomly chosen by the accountants. This is the best insurance that the test will be impartially and fairly administered. Nonsense.  One person, and no more.  The possibilities for breach of security are far too great with any more than one person.

Agreed. 7. Coding is done by several teams of two people each to insure that there are no mistakes or cheating. Again, no.   Videotaping can insure against errors.

Huh? He just said no videotaping. 8. The first team of two people removes any identification of the samples and randomly codes and records the fifty sample sets using a  numerical index, labeling the samples with numbers that correspond to the true identity of the samples.. There can be nothing to be "removed."  That could leave traces.  Containers can be retained in labeled envelopes.  The replacement identifications can be labels.

I don’t get why this re-coding is necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. The second team randomly assigns the numerically coded samples with alphabetical coding, records the numerical identity of the samples, removes the numerical labels and labels the samples alphabetically.  In this way no one person will be able to know the true identity of a  sample without conferring with a member from another indexing team. No "second team."  Too many possibilities for error.  If the previous process is carried out properly, it is secure. 10. The numerical and alphabetical indexes shall be kept in separate locations mutually agreed on by the applicant and JREF. No.  The single coding will be retained by one trusted person.  There are simple ways to ensure the security.  Making the coding into a complex procedure is not the best way.

Agreed, but who can do it? 11. After one lunar cycle, from full moon to full moon, the applicant will produce to the accountants the results as to which are the potentized and which are not. Incredible.  Sounds like a child’s fairy story.  But acceptable.  If it makes them feel better…. 12. The results will be assessed by the same accountants who managed the coding of the samples. No.  Simply opening up the coding will be sufficient.  No "assessment" is needed.  The results are evident.

Right. 13. The Challenge shall be considered to have been won if the applicant has produced 70% correct results or better. For the preliminary test, yes.  Odds are about one in one thousand

No, that’s wrong.   not an acceptable level for the million-dollar prize, but okay for the preliminary test, which is what we’re discussing here.

What percent does he want for a formal test? Do we have any idea? Benneth is fond of redefining the JREF test in his own terms.  He’s welcome to his fantasies, but they do not relate to reality, which is where we’re located.  The procedure above sounds to me to be expensive, but Benneth must be aware of this, and must be prepared to finance the operation.                                         James Randi

Certainly has been what he is noted for doing. It’s what Art Bell said he’s done with people repeatedly. He’ll argue and argue over the conditions. He’s never signed his own Challenge, which was an idea he ripped off from Houdini of whom Randi wrote a a slavish biography of  . . . and showed off his collection of Houdini "Challenge" posters. Except in the Houdini Challenge, Houdini is the guy taking the Challenge. Randi’s obviously turned it around. He wants me to be Houdini!  It’s a unilateral contract and now he’s saying that the only way to get a fair judgement is to pay somebody like Price Waterhouse for it? Yeah, right. And how much do they kick back to him? Here, buy my book. Join my Skeptics club, that’ll be fifty bucks. Notice how he says what it is I’m supposed to do, and what is I will do, like he’s Jeanne Dixon or Kreskin or somebody. Then he tries ordering me around: "BENNETH, HERE IS HOW YOU MUST ADDRESS YOUR E-MAIL TO ME!" "BENNETH, STOP SENDING ME CRAP" "BENNETH, GET ON WITH IT! BENNETH WON’T DO THISS, HE WON’T DO THAT" It’s like I’m this bad boy BENNETH, YOU IRRITATE ME!      And he’s always saying what it is I am: "BENNETH, YOU’RE A FOOL! BENNETH, YOU’RE A WACKO! YOU DUMMY!"  etc. etc. etc.      Wow! This guy is a riot! I think he kind of likes me. I’ll have to send you the "psychic reading" I did for him a while back. It really pissed him off, I think!      Hey, thanks for the asessment. I appreciate your criticism, especially when its of me, I need all I can get if I’m going to get better. jb Hi John, Syd, HD, My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think?

Kim, everybody, Randi clearly got off to an abusive, ill-tempered start in his response to B’s protocol.  But I’ve been very impressed by how well Alain has stepped in to talk turkey — and how Randi has responded in kind. (I have *not* been impressed by how Randi has left JB out of all of his correspondence.) I think that if the will is there on John’s part, this may prove … read more »

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