Hi Shilpa, You need a 4 year degree to be allowed to sit the CPA exam in California. But once you have the fourth year, you’ll probably need to do a CPA review course to bone up on California’s tax & corporate laws, as well as the other little idiosyncracies of American accounting. Some American universities allow you a 4th study year where a review course (eg Bisk) is part of the course, so you knock over both at the same time. (I can’t remember which uni it is, but if you go to Bisk’s website at www.cpaexam.com they’ll tell you.) However, American universities are hideously expensive places to study. Perhaps it’s cheaper to get a Grad Dip in India and take it from there? NB: In some countries, doing the local CPA equivalent gives you your fourth year. I know this is true of Australia, but over here it takes 3 years to become Chartered, so it isn’t worth it.
Hi group, I have a 3year degree in accounting and finance (B.Com to be specific) from India. I am interested in taking the CPA exam here in California. Does anyone know if my degree qualifies me to take the CPA exam? I am trying to get my degree evaluated so that I will get a better idea. But in the mean time, if there is anyone out there with a similar background please reply. Thanks, -Shilpa
Hi group, I have a 3year degree in accounting and finance (B.Com to be specific) from India. I am interested in taking the CPA exam here in California. Does anyone know if my degree qualifies me to take the CPA exam? I am trying to get my degree evaluated so that I will get a better idea. But in the mean time, if there is anyone out there with a similar background please reply. Thanks, -Shilpa
You should direct your questions toward these people. http://www.dca.ca.gov/cba/
Kinda reminds me of old teevee cop shows – you could always tell who the undercover cops were by the fact that they drove black (with blackwall tires) ‘63 Ford Custom sedans. These cars were total "strippers" – no one in "real life" except an undercover would drive such a "square" vehicle….
You haven’t met my parents.
If there is a "look" striven for in official policy/training/monitoring, it would be to blend in among everyday business travelers, however, for those who routinely fly, separating air marshalls from traveling lawyers (who with accountants seem to occupy half the seats in my domestic journies) may be easier. Young lawyers buy their suits from a different rack.
Kinda reminds me of old teevee cop shows – you could always tell who the undercover cops were by the fact that they drove black (with blackwall tires) ‘63 Ford Custom sedans. These cars were total "strippers" – no one in "real life" except an undercover would drive such a "square" vehicle…. — Best Greg
Gregory Morrow extrapolated from data available… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If there is a "look" striven for in official policy/training/monitoring, it would be to blend in among everyday business travelers, however, for those who routinely fly, separating air marshalls from traveling lawyers (who with accountants seem to occupy half the seats in my domestic journies) may be easier. Young lawyers buy their suits from a different rack. Kinda reminds me of old teevee cop shows – you could always tell who the undercover cops were by the fact that they drove black (with blackwall tires) ‘63 Ford Custom sedans. These cars were total "strippers" – no one in "real life" except an undercover would drive such a "square" vehicle….
Today, the inventory of undercover cop cars is maintained and fattened by confiscation of doper’s cars. The locals here had a Denali for a while, black with really dark tinted windows and the "gold" grill, not exactly the car for a street buyer of crank. TMO
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the air marshals board the plane before everybody else? Yesterday, while waiting to board a flight, I noticed two gentlemen who obviously were in good physical condition, dressed in business clothing, one with military style hair and the other with a shaved head, preboard the flight ahead of the announced general boarding. Later when I got on I noticed the shaved head one sitting in Row 2 first class aisle, and the other one in the bulkhead seat right behind first. Now it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude that these guys could be air marshals. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the odds are that I’m right. Think a bad guy could reach the same conclusion? So my question is do the marshals routinely preboard the flights? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that they do this. If this is the case, why do they do this if they know it makes their guys stick out? Ever read "The Purloined letter" by Poe? About hiding something in plain sight? You focus on the obvious ones, so you don’t see the less obvious one or ones who might be in with the crowd. Never watch the hand waving the wand or youwill see only what you were meant to see. There’s a lot of mess-ups with TSA and DHS but there’s a lot of rock solid and very well trained people in the air marshall program, one hell of a lot of them ex-military with real combat training and special ops. Always distrust the obvious. Jim P. All of them look and act exactly as Pan said in the message. In fact, within the last year I read where the air marshals were publically complaining about how they were forced to dress and look.’
No, not all. My wife and I were flying home to SFO from NY last month. We both got last-minute upgrades to F — me to a window seat — 2F, she to a bulkhead aisle — 1B. After we took off, I asked my seatmate in the 2E aisle whether he’d consider switching with my wife so that she could sit next to me. He declined, very politely, saying that he didn’t like bulkheads. This is a reasonable position and I was, after all, asking a favor, so I didn’t think anything more about it. Our exchange was, evidently, overheard by an FA. After we landed, I hit the head and, when I came out, the FA told me, "The reason that man next to you wouldn’t switch seats is because he’s an air marshall and he couldn’t see the cockpit door if he sat in 1B. I just don’t want you to think he was being rude." I hadn’t thought he was rude, but it was interesting info — as far as I’m concerned he looked like any other business person travelling on that flight, and I wouldn’t have had a clue that he was an air marshall if the FA hadn’t told me. He didn’t sleep, and declined the meal, but otherwise didn’t do anything which attracted attention. However, in retrospect, I realize that there was never a time when he wasn’t alert to what was going on in the cabin. Frankly, I was pretty impressed with his professionalism and demeanor. I hope all air marshalls are that good.
PTRAVEL extrapolated from data available… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, not all. My wife and I were flying home to SFO from NY last month. We both got last-minute upgrades to F — me to a window seat — 2F, she to a bulkhead aisle — 1B. After we took off, I asked my seatmate in the 2E aisle whether he’d consider switching with my wife so that she could sit next to me. He declined, very politely, saying that he didn’t like bulkheads. This is a reasonable position and I was, after all, asking a favor, so I didn’t think anything more about it. Our exchange was, evidently, overheard by an FA. After we landed, I hit the head and, when I came out, the FA told me, "The reason that man next to you wouldn’t switch seats is because he’s an air marshall and he couldn’t see the cockpit door if he sat in 1B. I just don’t want you to think he was being rude." I hadn’t thought he was rude, but it was interesting info — as far as I’m concerned he looked like any other business person travelling on that flight, and I wouldn’t have had a clue that he was an air marshall if the FA hadn’t told me. He didn’t sleep, and declined the meal, but otherwise didn’t do anything which attracted attention. However, in retrospect, I realize that there was never a time when he wasn’t alert to what was going on in the cabin. Frankly, I was pretty impressed with his professionalism and demeanor. I hope all air marshalls are that good.
Some generalized ID tipoffs, but not always true…. Not as official policy but a psychological trend, fairly short haircut. 30-50 (mostly, but a few older fit retired law enforcement officers, some evidence of physical fitness (no obvious beer guts, etc.). A large percentage of air marshalls have prior military service Shoes…unlikely to wear Italian or "penny" loafers, and cross-trainers etc., do stick out when compared to the next clue…. Air marshalls carry pistols (and not the Saturday Night Special sort), fairly big and clumsy, requiring a waist holster (or possibly but rarely if at all a shoulder rig). Therefore, other than if able to wear of camp or guayabera type shirt to cover and conceal the sidearm, air marshalls will wear a blazer, suit coat or other long jacket. There are a few females in the ranks. If there is a "look" striven for in official policy/training/monitoring, it would be to blend in among everyday business travelers, however, for those who routinely fly, separating air marshalls from traveling lawyers (who with accountants seem to occupy half the seats in my domestic journies) may be easier. Young lawyers buy their suits from a different rack. TMO
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the air marshals board the plane before everybody else? Yesterday, while waiting to board a flight, I noticed two gentlemen who obviously were in good physical condition, dressed in business clothing, one with military style hair and the other with a shaved head, preboard the flight ahead of the announced general boarding. Later when I got on I noticed the shaved head one sitting in Row 2 first class aisle, and the other one in the bulkhead seat right behind first. Now it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude that these guys could be air marshals. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the odds are that I’m right. Think a bad guy could reach the same conclusion? So my question is do the marshals routinely preboard the flights? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that they do this. If this is the case, why do they do this if they know it makes their guys stick out? Ever read "The Purloined letter" by Poe? About hiding something in plain sight? You focus on the obvious ones, so you don’t see the less obvious one or ones who might be in with the crowd. Never watch the hand waving the wand or youwill see only what you were meant to see. There’s a lot of mess-ups with TSA and DHS but there’s a lot of rock solid and very well trained people in the air marshall program, one hell of a lot of them ex-military with real combat training and special ops. Always distrust the obvious. Jim P.
All of them look and act exactly as Pan said in the message. In fact, within the last year I read where the air marshals were publically complaining about how they were forced to dress and look.
very well trained people in the air marshall program, one hell of a lot of them ex-military with real combat training and special ops. Always distrust the obvious.
Military types may be trained in camouflage in the bushes, but not in a crowd. Just because they may be very good during some sort of criminal/terrorist attempt doesn’t mean that they are any good at being innocuous in a crowd. All of them look and act exactly as Pan said in the message.
I wouldn’t go that far. But eventually, their job becomes quite routine and yes, an observant person will see some trend. In fact, within the last year I read where the air marshals were publically complaining about how they were forced to dress and look.
Correct. And there was also a very high turnover for what is essentially a very boring job (read newspapers and sit down all day). Eventually, they’ll clue in that they may as well make the marhsalls visible. What they REALLY should have done is get the crews (FAs) trained as marshalls. Perhaps not realistic when you consider the type of people who are hired as FAs, but if it were possible, it would be the best solution.
Why is it that the air marshals board the plane before everybody else? Yesterday, while waiting to board a flight, I noticed two gentlemen who obviously were in good physical condition, dressed in business clothing, one with military style hair and the other with a shaved head, preboard the flight ahead of the announced general boarding. Later when I got on I noticed the shaved head one sitting in Row 2 first class aisle, and the other one in the bulkhead seat right behind first.
I think something similar happend to me on a CO Hong Kong flight. Comming home from HKG, I was standing first in line to board the jet in the BF section. when this guy (old {mid-late 50’s} with balding hair and wearing the loudest multi-colored sear-sucker summer jacket I’ve ever seen) kept trying to cut in front of me in line. Apparenly, the crew was familiar with him ("Hey… howya doin’? Long time no see…" kind of chat….). Anyway, they let him board before anyone else, and he took a window alone seat in row 3 (3A). I was in 2A, and when the laptop port in 2A wouldn’t work, I tried to plug it into 3B to see if that would work. The man didn’t say anything, but the FA’s came racing over to me and told me to "get away and not bother ‘the gentleman’!" They asked why I was there and when I told them, they said "if you wait a minute, we’ll find you another seat that works" – which they did. As it turned out, I got seat 1L by myself (bulkead) with no seatmate!!!! So that’s what I was thinking as well – that this guy must have been the air marshall.. Either that, or he was one helluva VIP flyer!! Regards, Arnold. (E-mail address altered, to prevent spamming. 
Remove all asterisks and the *hates*spam* to get true address.)
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the air marshals board the plane before everybody else? Yesterday, while waiting to board a flight, I noticed two gentlemen who obviously were in good physical condition, dressed in business clothing, one with military style hair and the other with a shaved head, preboard the flight ahead of the announced general boarding. Later when I got on I noticed the shaved head one sitting in Row 2 first class aisle, and the other one in the bulkhead seat right behind first. Now it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude that these guys could be air marshals. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the odds are that I’m right. Think a bad guy could reach the same conclusion? So my question is do the marshals routinely preboard the flights? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that they do this. If this is the case, why do they do this if they know it makes their guys stick out?
Ever read "The Purloined letter" by Poe? About hiding something in plain sight? You focus on the obvious ones, so you don’t see the less obvious one or ones who might be in with the crowd. Never watch the hand waving the wand or youwill see only what you were meant to see. There’s a lot of mess-ups with TSA and DHS but there’s a lot of rock solid and very well trained people in the air marshall program, one hell of a lot of them ex-military with real combat training and special ops. Always distrust the obvious. Jim P.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the air marshals board the plane before everybody else? Yesterday, while waiting to board a flight, I noticed two gentlemen who obviously were in good physical condition, dressed in business clothing, one with military style hair and the other with a shaved head, preboard the flight ahead of the announced general boarding. Later when I got on I noticed the shaved head one sitting in Row 2 first class aisle, and the other one in the bulkhead seat right behind first. Now it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude that these guys could be air marshals. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the odds are that I’m right. Think a bad guy could reach the same conclusion? So my question is do the marshals routinely preboard the flights? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that they do this. If this is the case, why do they do this if they know it makes their guys stick out? Ever read "The Purloined letter" by Poe? About hiding something in plain sight? You focus on the obvious ones, so you don’t see the less obvious one or ones who might be in with the crowd. Never watch the hand waving the wand or youwill see only what you were meant to see. There’s a lot of mess-ups with TSA and DHS but there’s a lot of rock solid and very well trained people in the air marshall program, one hell of a lot of them ex-military with real combat training and special ops. Always distrust the obvious. Jim P. All of them look and act exactly as Pan said in the message.
Careful, the suggestion is that there are ones that behave as such, intentionally, and ones that don’t. If you think that ALL the air marshalls act that way, you may be taking the bait. In fact, within the last year I read where the air marshals were publically complaining about how they were forced to dress and look.
And for an agency that is so new, and constantly changing, presuming that anything from "last year" now represents the current state of affairs is a bit presumptious.
Why is it that the air marshals board the plane before everybody else? Yesterday, while waiting to board a flight, I noticed two gentlemen who obviously were in good physical condition, dressed in business clothing, one with military style hair and the other with a shaved head, preboard the flight ahead of the announced general boarding. Later when I got on I noticed the shaved head one sitting in Row 2 first class aisle, and the other one in the bulkhead seat right behind first. Now it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude that these guys could be air marshals. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the odds are that I’m right. Think a bad guy could reach the same conclusion? So my question is do the marshals routinely preboard the flights? This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that they do this. If this is the case, why do they do this if they know it makes their guys stick out?
Of course I want to know, but I also know this woman — I lived with her for many years. She doesn’t even say hello to me if we run into one another at a kid’s soccer game, and she does less than nothing to encourage the kids to visit with me so that I could find out first-hand how they are doing. Believe me, it just doesn’t fit that this is a kindness gesture. I wish it weren’t so, but I think shfwilf may be right. Thank you all…
Casey – can’t you tell your X you only want to deal with her in email from now on? And/or block her phone number from coming in? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas? I agree most of the others who have responded already. This is a good way for her to keep you up-to-date on their health without calling you. If I were you I’d be pleased with what she’s doing. Put it this way… even if she has some ulterior motive, so what? You’re learning things about your kids from her and that’s good. I would reply with a short "thank you" to encourage her to continue. Geez, I wish my ex would just email me instead of calling… Casey "Rome was burned in a day."
Casey – can’t you tell your X you only want to deal with her in email from now on? And/or block her phone number from coming in?
Well, it would help if she had a email account that she used… Casey (Who has now gone for exactly 4 months and 30 days without being married)
The problem with e-mail is one can never be certain if the other person got it and opened it unless they are on the same service that has those options. I always tell people not to e-mail me with anything really important because sometimes I don’t open my mail for days. I’d follow up e-mail with a phone message at a time I know they won’t be home. You know, Hi, sent you an e-mail to confirm everything. Send me one back if you have any questions. Good Day!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Casey – can’t you tell your X you only want to deal with her in email from now on? And/or block her phone number from coming in? Well, it would help if she had a email account that she used… Casey (Who has now gone for exactly 4 months and 30 days without being married)
What makes you think that there has to be a motive, don’t you want to be informed and updated as to whats going on with your children?
The motive is money. What makes you think that there has to be a motive, don’t you want to be informed and updated as to whats going on with your children?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What makes you think that there has to be a motive, don’t you want to be informed and updated as to whats going on with your children? The motive is money. Absolutely! The motive for kindness and simple courtesy is ALWAYS money, I’m amazed that anyone here would think otherwise. 
Janie
Yeah, what’s up with you people???!! 
The problem with e-mail is one can never be certain if the other person got it and opened it unless they are on the same service that has those options. I always tell people not to e-mail me with anything really important because sometimes I don’t open my mail for days.
I just end my emails to my ex wife with, "Please let me know you recieved this." It’s a better closing, too, than some of the other things I might say :-. Robre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d follow up e-mail with a phone message at a time I know they won’t be home. You know, Hi, sent you an e-mail to confirm everything. Send me one back if you have any questions. Good Day! Casey – can’t you tell your X you only want to deal with her in email from now on? And/or block her phone number from coming in? Well, it would help if she had a email account that she used… Casey (Who has now gone for exactly 4 months and 30 days without being married)
My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas? Could she be trying to establish a history of positioning me as a disinterested parent, or demonstrating that she takes on all this responsibility? If so, what would be her gain? BTW, she is a non-working mom who receives child support and alimony. Thanks.
Maybe she is documenting for some reason. Maybe she is simply keeping you in the loop. Maybe she is attempting to establish a basis for increasing the child support. Maybe she likes staying in contact with you. Perhaps you should respond by e-mail and state something like: Thank you for the update. Please do not hesitate to call me if there are any changes or with any questions you may have.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas? Could she be trying to establish a history of positioning me as a disinterested parent, or demonstrating that she takes on all this responsibility? If so, what would be her gain? BTW, she is a non-working mom who receives child support and alimony. Thanks.
My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number."
They are your children, in all likelihood, she thinks you want to know what’ s going on in their lives. Moreover, there has been a lot of discussion here about fathers not having a clue how child support is being spent and that they think an "accounting" would be a Good Thing. You’re getting an accounting. I agree with what Pam said — thank her for her consideration. Ellen
My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas? Could she be trying to establish a history of positioning me as a disinterested parent, or demonstrating that she takes on all this responsibility? If so, what would be her gain? BTW, she is a non-working mom who receives child support and alimony. Thanks.
Could be that she thinks you, as the parent, would simply be interested in the health of your own children? I’d be very pissed if my ex (who is custodial) failed to let me know if the kids had any health or dental problems, and i’d want to be aware of any medications they are taking. They’re my kids, i can’t imagine NOT wanting to know even the details about their health and well-being.
My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas?
It would seem abnormal and inappropriate to me were she NOT to let you know these things. Don’t you want to know? -b
She is trying to get more money from you, of course. My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas? Could she be trying to establish a history of positioning me as a disinterested parent, or demonstrating that she takes on all this responsibility? If so, what would be her gain? BTW, she is a non-working mom who receives child support and alimony. Thanks.
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accept it for what it is. Denise
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas? Could she be trying to establish a history of positioning me as a disinterested parent, or demonstrating that she takes on all this responsibility? If so, what would be her gain? BTW, she is a non-working mom who receives child support and alimony. Thanks.
My ex-wife has lately taken to sending me emails with medical updates on our kids: "took kids to dentist for this, doctor for that, they are taking medicine for something, etc." She always signs off with "Call me if you have any questions, or call the doctor at <phone number." It would really surprise me to learn that she is doing this out of the goodness of her heart, but I can’t figure out a motive. Any ideas?
I agree most of the others who have responded already. This is a good way for her to keep you up-to-date on their health without calling you. If I were you I’d be pleased with what she’s doing. Put it this way… even if she has some ulterior motive, so what? You’re learning things about your kids from her and that’s good. I would reply with a short "thank you" to encourage her to continue. Geez, I wish my ex would just email me instead of calling… Casey "Rome was burned in a day."
Hi, I am just start learning accounting by myself…and I am confussed the term "brought forward" and "carried forward", also the "carried down" and "brought down" … Thanks Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
The carried part is the starting point of the story, the brought the second part and conclusion. Roger — ‘Ladies Day at Royal Ascot’ on http://www.findit.co.uk/pictures.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am just start learning accounting by myself…and I am confussed the term "brought forward" and "carried forward", also the "carried down" and "brought down" … Thanks Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
The carried part is the starting point of the story, the brought the second part and conclusion. Roger
thanks you Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
As it relates to accounting, when a schedule spans more than one page the amounts on the first page are totaled and labeled something like "Administrative Expenses Carried Forward", on the next page the amount is repeated and labeled something like " Administrative Expenses Brought Forward"
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The carried part is the starting point of the story, the brought the second part and conclusion. Roger thanks you Ivan Lee http://www.geocities.com/ginola79/
Business Works. Maria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not particularly difficult with most of the accounting software that I’ve used. What software are YOU using? (It would be easier to help if you told us!)
Hi,
61 events per hour is SEVERE. For severe, my provider makes CPAP happen immediately. To do otherwise *should* be criminal. I suspect the wait is because of the Canadian socialized medicine paper machine. regards, eric pearson er…@nospammindspring.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:46:26 -0500, Barb <amo…@oxford.net> wrote: ><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> ><html> >well, here goes. I’ve never posted to a newsgroup before – hope this comes >thru ok! I was just diagnosed with sleep apnea – I don’t know if it was >severe or not – the doctor said I had 391 "incidents" in the 6 hours of >sleep, and 61 arousals per hour. Is this alot? What is considered mild/average/severe? ><p>After the diagnosis, I went the next week (just last monday) to try >the cpap. Well, I got to be the subject of a bit of an experiment – just >that day a new mask was brought in to try – very, very small and light >- just barely fits over the nose. Apparently these are not available yet >but will be soon. ><p>I didn’t have much trouble adjusting, but I did wake up a couple of >times during the night because the mask was leaking, and I had to readjust >it. In the morning I found out that they had to adjust the air level to >11 to keep my blood oxygen high and breathing normal – is that a high level? >Was that why I was having the air leakage problem? ><p>I woke up feeling pretty refreshed – however I have to wait until January >4, 2000 to get my results and get my cpap – it seems a long time to me >to have to wait – is that the average wait after the cpap trial? ><p>Anyway – I was interested to read about the night sweats – one of the >things I noticed at the cpap trial was that when I woke up I still had >all the covers on! Usually I toss them all off during the night, and wake >up in a sweat. I hadn’t even sweated at all! Is the night sweats from struggling >to breath? ><p>I am really anxious to get the cpap now that I know I can tollerate >it – are there any Ontario – Canada people on this newsgroup that could >tell me what the good units available here are? ><p>Thanks! ><p>Barb ><br> ><br> </html>
Lee Babcock <babco…@idirect.ca> wrote: >> I suspect the wait is because of the Canadian socialized medicine >> paper machine. >Eric…. don’t speak without knowledge! I’m in Ontario and waited only 13 days from FIRST >test to getting my machine. I got the machine 3 days after my final test. Also, I got a >sleep lab appointment in two days and this was my choice. I could have had it the same >night! I get tired of people, especially Americans, belittling a health care system that >they know nothing about.
Umm, in Alberta and B.C. the wait is between six and eighteen months to get into a sleep lab depending on where you live. Furthermore in AB and BC you have to pay for the CPAP machines yourself. I think ON the govt pays for them. Tony —- Message posted to newsgroup and, if appropriate, emailed. Tony Toews, Independent Computer Consultant Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm VolStar http://www.volstar.com Manage hundreds or thousands of volunteers for special events.
Lee Babcock <babco…@idirect.ca> wrote in message
news:383B3D92.69A86515@idirect.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jo…. I don’t know when you got yours, but they have a long legal form now that is > your diagnosis and prescription, is signed by the sleep specialist and the referring > physician and of course, you as the patient. It clearly states that the patient has > a permanent disability which can be useful other places. I used a copy of this to > get disabled parking at the college. When OHIP receives this, you are enrolled. > The selling agents (i.e. Medigas) do all the running around and getting the form > signed and in fact submit it to OHIP. > It’s really simple now. > Regards, Lee
Must have started after I got mine, that was 3 years ago, seeing as how I knew nothing about this service when I got mine. I’m not in Ontario now but it might help when I go back after my hubby retires, that is, if we don’t retire to Florida or somewhere else sunnier, which is what I want to do and my hubby is willing to do. Jo
Peg wrote: > All I got from my K-W sleep clinic in Aug 99 was a standard sized > prescription sheet with the CPAP pressure. The form I signed with > Medigas was a financial agreement only.
Peg…. form is legal sized, multiple copy, Ontario Ministry of Health, Assistive Devices Branch, 7th floor, 5700 Yonge St, North York, M2M 4K5. 1-800-268-6021. Form name is Equipment/Supply Authorization. Form number is 7530-4835. I’d jump on your supplier and give them this info. They need to earn their money! Hope this helps Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jo wrote: > I wish you hadn’t responded so harshly to Lee’s comment about him being > tired of Americans belittling a health care system they know nothing about. I > am an American and I do know about their health care since I lived up there for > four years and was privy to using their system, though I didn’t use it much. > I’m wishing I was > back in Ontario and had that wonderful free OHIP plan going. I would love to go > to a doctor and see if I really do have fibromyalgia or not but I don’t want to > go here until I have some insurance under my belt, know what I mean? > I’m paying out of my pocket now for the doctor’s visit to see about my high > blood pressure, and paying full price for the meds, too. Ugh! I may not have > been completely happy with the doctors up there but I’ve not been completely > happy with the doctors I’ve seen here, either. I think it’s just me, actually, > but at least the doctor visits were free and I didn’t have to put off going > until I had enough money to go. There is a lot to be said about this kind of > coverage. > I just felt that you came out flailing and I didn’t like what I saw. > Jo
Jo… appreciate the support, but I’m ‘broad shouldered across the hips’ so I can take the strain. <g> Why don’t you and your husband move back here? Good people are always welcome. Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
Jo wrote: > > … Once you get your > > prescription, you will be enrolled (automatically) in the > > Assisted Home Care Devices plan for OHIP and they will come > Oh, that’s interesting. I don’t think I was enrolled in that plan after I > got mine. In order to get mine, I had to go to Medigas and talk with them > there. The guy there showed me the machine and how it works, set the pressure > the lab had recommended, had me put the straps on the mask and
Jo…. I don’t know when you got yours, but they have a long legal form now that is your diagnosis and prescription, is signed by the sleep specialist and the referring physician and of course, you as the patient. It clearly states that the patient has a permanent disability which can be useful other places. I used a copy of this to get disabled parking at the college. When OHIP receives this, you are enrolled. The selling agents (i.e. Medigas) do all the running around and getting the form signed and in fact submit it to OHIP. It’s really simple now. Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
Dear Z, I wish you hadn’t responded so harshly to Lee’s comment about him being tired of Americans belittling a health care system they know nothing about. It is true that most Americans know nothing about the Canadian health care plan. I am an American and I do know about their health care since I lived up there for four years and was privy to using their system, though I didn’t use it much. I found drawbacks, yes, like one ER in a Scarborough hospital only having one doctor on duty for the whole ER. And when the doctors went on strike, we couldn’t get my son’s allergies tested for months and months. And there was never any job openings in any of the hospitals ever. Maybe initially I didn’t feel as confident in the doctors there as I did of the ones in the U.S. but whatever medical problem I had was treated successfully. And my kids, too. Our family doctor was Chinese so I don’t know if that means anything significant or not. And I got my sleep studies and my CPAP machine for free. All I do know is that now I am back living in Ohio and I don’t have any medical insurance covering me right now at all, and I am going to have a damned hard time getting one to cover me since I’m so fat and now am on medicine for high blood pressure. My husband is working in a very small company, hence the insurance plan that they have for their employees isn’t a very hefty one. In order to put me on it under the family plan I was going to have to pay a good $300 a month. That was an outrageous price and I decided that I could get a better price on my own forgetting that I have a fat body and forgetting how insurance companies look with disdain at such fatties. At the time my husband started working here we just plain couldn’t afford another $300 added to our budget. We just did not have it. Now that we do, I’m f#@ked from what I’m seeing when I look at the insurance brochures I’ve received. I’m wishing I was back in Ontario and had that wonderful free OHIP plan going. I would love to go to a doctor and see if I really do have fibromyalgia or not but I don’t want to go here until I have some insurance under my belt, know what I mean? I’m paying out of my pocket now for the doctor’s visit to see about my high blood pressure, and paying full price for the meds, too. Ugh! I may not have been completely happy with the doctors up there but I’ve not been completely happy with the doctors I’ve seen here, either. I think it’s just me, actually, but at least the doctor visits were free and I didn’t have to put off going until I had enough money to go. There is a lot to be said about this kind of coverage. I just felt that you came out flailing and I didn’t like what I saw. Jo
> … Once you get your > prescription, you will be enrolled (automatically) in the > Assisted Home Care Devices plan for OHIP and they will come > to your home/office and demo machines and masks and show you > how to use them etc. The people you will deal with in this > regard must be registered respiratory technicians to get the > job, so they have knowledge that is far beyond most of the > doctors.
Oh, that’s interesting. I don’t think I was enrolled in that plan after I got mine. In order to get mine, I had to go to Medigas and talk with them there. The guy there showed me the machine and how it works, set the pressure the lab had recommended, had me put the straps on the mask and then put it on my face. We tried to make sure that it fit right before I left. I wasn’t very cooperative with him because I was in resent mode very badly that day. I barely listened to what he was saying and just barely did what he asked me. At that time, I hated the whole friggin’ idea of having to wear a mask and have air forced down my throat to sleep. It’s a long story, one that I have related here but don’t want to take up the space to relate it again. Jo
> Yeah Scarborough! Hello Jo. Mention to your SO that we just got a huge and much > needed new addition to the college. They are putting the windows in this week and > we move in first week of Jan 2000. Will include a new 100 unit student only > computer lab open 24/7. > Regards, Lee
My hubby worked at the Bibliocentre on Kennedy so I don’t think he’s really that familiar with what’s going on at the university proper. But thanks for telling us anyway. I lived for two years in Scarborough off Scarborough Golf Club Rd. We really miss going to Pickering to Frenchman’s Bay and sitting on the beach to watch the sunsets. Anyway, what this has to do with sleep disorders, I don’t know so I guess I better stop. Jo
mira…@my-deja.com wrote: > In regards to your question below, the funding in Ontario will not > cover ongoing exspenses related to CPAP, therfore you are on your own > to replace the mask, tubing, headgear ect. Private insurance may pay > for ongoing exspenses depending on your coverage. > Generally you should replace your mask at least once a year, they pick > up the oil off your skin and become more brittle, if you take good care > of your mask you can have it last longer.
If you invest a little more in the Mirage mask (provided that it fits OK), you don’t have to replace the mask, only the silicone seal. This would save money in the long run Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:45:21 GMT, Lee Babcock <babco…@idirect.ca> wrote: >If you invest a little more in the Mirage mask (provided that it fits OK), >you don’t have to replace the mask, only the silicone seal.
And any other parts that break…. which I’ve had happen. I send the bills in and my insurance pays 80% (but I don’t hold my breath waiting for them).
Barb wrote: > hank you!! One question I have – how long have you been on > the cpap, and do you find you still feel good with it? > Also, how long does a mask generally last, and are they > covered by OHIP too (i.e. when you need to get a new one.)
Barb…. whatever related equipment you get is covered, so you might as well get something good. I got two sets of hoses, extra foam and extra fine filters as well. I got the humidifier and two sets of hoses and several spare gaskets for it as well. OHIP’s funding is only once every three years, so get what you can now. Someone told me that the Shopper’s Drug Mart Home Care Stores have CPAP accessories so I’m going to check that out this week. I’ve been on it since the first of August 99 and am just getting used to it. My pressure setting was 11 but I couldn’t tolerate it so had to start at 8 for a while, then up by .5 every so often. The mask was a problem at first, but the folks here explained the ‘rules’ for the Mirage. I’m now getting about 5 – 6 hours sleep a night, most of it good sleep. As for feeling better, I had severe cognitave impairment to the extent that I couldn’t do basic math and early in the day couldn’t fiigure out what key locked the door. This has almost disappeared. My short term memory was shot and still is. I’ve lost 14kg since I started on the CPAP and haven’t changed my eating or excercise. I have a severely enlarged heart, an enlarged liver and kidney damage, most of which they think is reverseable. I have a lot of energy now compared to pre-CPAP, but it is not very durable. Most days, by 4 or 5 in the afternoon, I am wiped out! Mind you, I was wiped out when I got out of bed before. I haven’t gone out at night for the last few years as I didn’t have the energy. If things keep on the way they are, I’m hoping to get out evenings for Tai Chi after the new year. In answer to your question am I still feeling good, I have only recently started to feel good but am expecting great things. Fifteen years ago I had endless energy and I hope to get that back. Are you in K/W or did you go there for your testing? Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
In regards to your question below, the funding in Ontario will not cover ongoing exspenses related to CPAP, therfore you are on your own to replace the mask, tubing, headgear ect. Private insurance may pay for ongoing exspenses depending on your coverage. Generally you should replace your mask at least once a year, they pick up the oil off your skin and become more brittle, if you take good care of your mask you can have it last longer. > > Thank you!! One question I have – how long have you been on the cpap, and > do you find you still feel good with it? Also, how long does a mask generally > last, and are they covered by OHIP too (i.e. when you need to get a new > one.) > <p>Thanks again! > <p>Barb > <br> </html>
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*lee babcock* apparently *hates* Americans, an allied country of his/her beloved Canada !!!! all you have to do is read his/her posts!!! btw, *lee babcock*, my start to finish period was 8 days here in the USA! approximately what city in the USA would your Ontario compare to in medical research, in universities, economically and industrially? memphis, tn? providence, ri? chicago, il? napa, ca? seattle, wa? the silicon valley? mit? stanford? princeton? houston, tx? boston, ma? i know you are an expert on Canada and surroundings, so how many Canadians go to university in the USA; how many Americans go to university in Canada? P.S. don’t look at the statistics! also, you do not breathe through anything made in the USA, do you, that would be unfair to Canada, correct??? God forbid you send your Canadian dollars to the USA!!! what IS the exchange rate now? hmmmmmmm! if your beloved country is attacked by russia or china or iran or anyone, who you gonna call on? france??? england??? nato??? sorry, they are all relying on us to bail them out!!! *lb*, get a real life! why not spend the rest of it giving honor and glory to God and by loving and caring for others??? including me! well, God bless *lee babcock* anyhow!!!! a bunch!!!! often!!! unconditionally!!! z <+>< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lee Babcock wrote: > eric pearson wrote: > > For severe, my provider makes CPAP happen immediately. > > To do otherwise *should* be criminal. > > I suspect the wait is because of the Canadian socialized medicine > > paper machine. > Eric…. don’t speak without knowledge! I’m in Ontario and waited only 13 days from FIRST > test to getting my machine. I got the machine 3 days after my final test. Also, I got a > sleep lab appointment in two days and this was my choice. I could have had it the same > night! I get tired of people, especially Americans, belittling a health care system that > they know nothing about. Those that know our system wish they one as good! > Regards, Lee > — > Lee Babcock > Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada > Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
well, my dear fellow, so happy that you tore into me for loving your Canada, the little i have visited there; other may be offended, i only offer your my deepest forgiveness! i believe my intention was to encourage and share my experiences with barb and the ng, certainly not to invite *lee babcok* to criticize and belittle but may God richly bless you and comfort you, anyways z <+>< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lee Babcock wrote: > > do you have socialized insurance and medical coverage in Canada? if so, > > that may cause the time delays at every step! > We do, and it does NOT cause any delay. See my other post! > > btw, i worked as a technician in electronics and computers from > > 1963-1998; one trip ( about early 70’s) took me to Edmonton, Ontario to > Edmonton is over 1,000 miles from central Ontario! Edmonton is in Alberta > and is a city. Ontario is a Province. The Prime Minister resides in > Ottawa, the capital of Canada and is in eastern Ontario. > > work on the Prime Minister’s computer system and terminal; it seemed > > like people were walking on eggshells, in fear of their life! but, i > > took care of things and went on my wayl Edmonton is a beautiful city, it > > must have been autumn with all the colors! > There is virtually no fall colours in Edmonton. There is however, an > incredible pallete of fall colours in Eastern Ontario. > Regards, Lee > — > Lee Babcock > Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada > Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
> do you have socialized insurance and medical coverage in Canada? if so, > that may cause the time delays at every step!
We do, and it does NOT cause any delay. See my other post! > btw, i worked as a technician in electronics and computers from > 1963-1998; one trip ( about early 70’s) took me to Edmonton, Ontario to
Edmonton is over 1,000 miles from central Ontario! Edmonton is in Alberta and is a city. Ontario is a Province. The Prime Minister resides in Ottawa, the capital of Canada and is in eastern Ontario. > work on the Prime Minister’s computer system and terminal; it seemed > like people were walking on eggshells, in fear of their life! but, i > took care of things and went on my wayl Edmonton is a beautiful city, it > must have been autumn with all the colors!
There is virtually no fall colours in Edmonton. There is however, an incredible pallete of fall colours in Eastern Ontario. Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
eric pearson wrote: > For severe, my provider makes CPAP happen immediately. > To do otherwise *should* be criminal. > I suspect the wait is because of the Canadian socialized medicine > paper machine.
Eric…. don’t speak without knowledge! I’m in Ontario and waited only 13 days from FIRST test to getting my machine. I got the machine 3 days after my final test. Also, I got a sleep lab appointment in two days and this was my choice. I could have had it the same night! I get tired of people, especially Americans, belittling a health care system that they know nothing about. Those that know our system wish they one as good! Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jo wrote: > Barb <amo…@oxford.net> wrote in message news:3833A0C2.228708B0@oxford.net… > > well, here goes. I’ve never posted to a newsgroup before – hope this comes > thru ok! > Hi, Barb, yep, your note came through fine and you’ve gotten some answers > back. > > I woke up feeling pretty refreshed – however I have to wait until January 4, > 2000 to get > >my results and get my cpap – it seems a long time to me to have to wait – is > that the > >average wait after the cpap trial? > To me that is a very long time to wait in Canada. Not everyone has the same > experience but in my case, I got my machine one week after the titration sleep > study. I was living in Ontario at the time I got my machine, in Scarborough.
Yeah Scarborough! Hello Jo. Mention to your SO that we just got a huge and much needed new addition to the college. They are putting the windows in this week and we move in first week of Jan 2000. Will include a new 100 unit student only computer lab open 24/7. Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Barb wrote: > well, here goes. I’ve never posted to a newsgroup before – > hope this comes thru ok! I was just diagnosed with sleep > apnea – I don’t know if it was severe or not – the doctor > said I had 391 "incidents" in the 6 hours of sleep, and 61 > arousals per hour. Is this alot? What is considered > mild/average/severe? > After the diagnosis, I went the next week (just last > monday) to try the cpap. Well, I got to be the subject of > a bit of an experiment – just that day a new mask was > brought in to try – very, very small and light – just > barely fits over the nose. Apparently these are not > available yet but will be soon. > I didn’t have much trouble adjusting, but I did wake up a > couple of times during the night because the mask was > leaking, and I had to readjust it. In the morning I found > out that they had to adjust the air level to 11 to keep my > blood oxygen high and breathing normal – is that a high > level? Was that why I was having the air leakage problem? > I woke up feeling pretty refreshed – however I have to > wait until January 4, 2000 to get my results and get my > cpap – it seems a long time to me to have to wait – is > that the average wait after the cpap trial? > Anyway – I was interested to read about the night sweats – > one of the things I noticed at the cpap trial was that > when I woke up I still had all the covers on! Usually I > toss them all off during the night, and wake up in a > sweat. I hadn’t even sweated at all! Is the night sweats > from struggling to breath? > I am really anxious to get the cpap now that I know I can > tollerate it – are there any Ontario – Canada people on > this newsgroup that could tell me what the good units > available here are?
Barb…. I’m in Scarborough and had my unit 3 days after my final test. OHIP will pay 75% of the cost up to $1,200 every three years for your unit. I have the Ramstar unit and the Mirage mask and both like and have no problems with either. Where are you located and where did you have your test. I had mine at a sleep clinic on Neilson Road that is connected with Sunnybrooke Health Sciences Centre. I was referred by Sunnybrooke and things really moved fast. Had my first test two days after I saw the doctor, had the second test 10 days later. As for machines, a lot of the units sold elsewhere are not sold in Ontario. OHIP requires patient protection in that there must be a three year warranty and they must have local service facilities available. Once you get your prescription, you will be enrolled (automatically) in the Assisted Home Care Devices plan for OHIP and they will come to your home/office and demo machines and masks and show you how to use them etc. The people you will deal with in this regard must be registered respiratory technicians to get the job, so they have knowledge that is far beyond most of the doctors. If you have any questions, reply here or by email and I’ll do my best to help. Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Scarborough (Toronto), Ontario, Canada Email —- babco…@idirect.ca
Barb <amo…@oxford.net> wrote in message news:3833A0C2.228708B0@oxford.net… > well, here goes. I’ve never posted to a newsgroup before – hope this comes
thru ok! Hi, Barb, yep, your note came through fine and you’ve gotten some answers back. > I woke up feeling pretty refreshed – however I have to wait until January 4, 2000 to get >my results and get my cpap – it seems a long time to me to have to wait – is that the >average wait after the cpap trial?
To me that is a very long time to wait in Canada. Not everyone has the same experience but in my case, I got my machine one week after the titration sleep study. I was living in Ontario at the time I got my machine, in Scarborough. > …anxious to get the cpap now that I know I can tollerate it – are there any Ontario – > Canada people on this newsgroup that could tell me what the good units available > here are?
Like I said I was in Canada when I got my machine back in 1996. I chose to get the Monarch mini-mask since that was the mask that I tolerated the best during the study. I was told that I could only get a Remstar machine since that was the specific mask I chose. So, I’m not a good one to be able to tell you about what good units are available there. I just want to point out that after OHIP pays for its share of the machine to check with any other insurance policies you might be carrying like one from where you (or your husband if you are married) work. My husband’s insurance coverage from Centennial College covered the rest of the expense of the machine plus a passover humidifier. I hope that you also consider getting a humidifier. The consensus here is that having a humidifier is greatly beneficial in making the usage of CPAP more comfortable. From what I’ve read, a heated humidifier is the one of choice here. I have the passover type and that works just fine for me. If I don’t use the humidifier, I feel very dried out. Jo
barb, i am osa newbie, also, but i live in houston, texas, usa; had the first osa test (nov 11), 457 *apnea events/ 6 hours / 75 per hour; o2 at 98; cpap overnight (nov 13) showed snoring and apneas both went to zero; o2 went from 78 to 98! i guess you could say the cpap for me was love at first sight (night)! BUT, i had the results in no time and the cpap machine and masks, etc. were to be here today (nov 19), but i have a bronchitis infection, fever, etc so will get it monday, nov 22! i really hate to see you have to wait for so long! really, at first, one sleep clinic guessed it would be mid-december for my first osa test, and long after that for the 2nd, and the cpap machine; i took another direction and went start to finish (cpap machine, etc) in 8 days! here in houston, when you finally get the Rx from your dr, with the faxing back and forth between dr and sleep clinic, it looks like you could get your cpap and all accessories within a couple of days! getting the scores of each test, via a pulm med specialist, takes about one day! i guess this is one blessing of living in a big (?) city, the one that happens to have the most polluted air in the usa! i hope and pray you get your cpap sooner than january! here is the usa, i am told, with our group medical, once the cpap Rx is written, we can "shop around" and go to any (approved equipment provider) that our coverage lists ( we have united healthcare ); do you have socialized insurance and medical coverage in Canada? if so, that may cause the time delays at every step! btw, i worked as a technician in electronics and computers from 1963-1998; one trip ( about early 70’s) took me to Edmonton, Ontario to work on the Prime Minister’s computer system and terminal; it seemed like people were walking on eggshells, in fear of their life! but, i took care of things and went on my wayl Edmonton is a beautiful city, it must have been autumn with all the colors! be blessed, and keep in touch with these folks on the ng; some seem to only post questions, several regulars frequently email and post back, and newbies always continue to come on in; anyway, blessings and may God make a special way for you to be "taken care of" very soon!!! z <+>< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Howard Bilkey wrote: > Barb and Group:I took my sleep test on 10-30-99 and have > been using my CPAP machine since then. My setting is 13. I > found this week that my arousals were 95.1 per hour. The > doctor’s comment was "This is severe!" and "No Wonder you > felt so bad."I was also diagnosed as Diabetic Type 2. > However, my glucose readings are now in the normal range > (80- 113) since I have been using the CPAP machine. Is > their anyone out there who is experiencing the same > results???My mask would also leak. Sometimes I would not > wash the mask each day and forget to wash my face before > going to sleep. I would have leaks. Keep the mask and your > face clean and you should not have the leaks.MY machine is a > GoodNight A18G. It is rather quiet, Apparently much quieter > than several that I have read about in this New Group.Good > luck with you results and machine.Barb <amo…@oxford.net> > wrote in message news:3833A0C2.228708B0@oxford.net…well, > here goes. I’ve never posted to a newsgroup before – hope > this comes thru ok! I was just diagnosed with sleep apnea – > I don’t know if it was severe or not – the doctor said I had > 391 "incidents" in the 6 hours of sleep, and 61 arousals per > hour. Is this alot? What is considered mild/average/severe? > After the diagnosis, I went the next week (just last monday) > to try the cpap. Well, I got to be the subject of a bit of > an experiment – just that day a new mask was brought in to > try – very, very small and light – just barely fits over the > nose. Apparently these are not available yet but will be > soon. > I didn’t have much trouble adjusting, but I did wake up a > couple of times during the night because the mask was > leaking, and I had to readjust it. In the morning I found > out that they had to adjust the air level to 11 to keep my > blood oxygen high and breathing normal – is that a high > level? Was that why I was having the air leakage problem? > I woke up feeling pretty refreshed – however I have to wait > until January 4, 2000 to get my results and get my cpap – it > seems a long time to me to have to wait – is that the > average wait after the cpap trial? > Anyway – I was interested to read about the night sweats – > one of the things I noticed at the cpap trial was that when > I woke up I still had all the covers on! Usually I toss them > all off during the night, and wake up in a sweat. I hadn’t > even sweated at all! Is the night sweats from struggling to > breath? > I am really anxious to get the cpap now that I know I can > tollerate it – are there any Ontario – Canada people on this > newsgroup that could tell me what the good units available > here are? > Thanks! Barb
Barb and Group: I took my sleep test on 10-30-99 and have been using my CPAP machine since then. My setting is 13. I found this week that my arousals were 95.1 per hour. The doctor’s comment was "This is severe!" and "No Wonder you felt so bad." I was also diagnosed as Diabetic Type 2. However, my glucose readings are now in the normal range (80- 113) since I have been using the CPAP machine. Is their anyone out there who is experiencing the same results??? My mask would also leak. Sometimes I would not wash the mask each day and forget to wash my face before going to sleep. I would have leaks. Keep the mask and your face clean and you should not have the leaks. MY machine is a GoodNight A18G. It is rather quiet, Apparently much quieter than several that I have read about in this New Group. Good luck with you results and machine. Barb <amo…@oxford.net> wrote in message news:3833A0C2.228708B0@oxford.net… well, here goes. I’ve never posted to a newsgroup before – hope this comes thru ok! I was just diagnosed with sleep apnea – I don’t know if it was severe or not – the doctor said I had 391 "incidents" in the 6 hours of sleep, and 61 arousals per hour. Is this alot? What is considered mild/average/severe? After the diagnosis, I went the next week (just last monday) to try the cpap. Well, I got to be the subject of a bit of an experiment – just that day a new mask was brought in to try – very, very small and light – just barely fits over the nose. Apparently these are not available yet but will be soon. I didn’t have much trouble adjusting, but I did wake up a couple of times during the night because the mask was leaking, and I had to readjust it. In the morning I found out that they had to adjust the air level to 11 to keep my blood oxygen high and breathing normal – is that a high level? Was that why I was having the air leakage problem? I woke up feeling pretty refreshed – however I have to wait until January 4, 2000 to get my results and get my cpap – it seems a long time to me to have to wait – is that the average wait after the cpap trial? Anyway – I was interested to read about the night sweats – one of the things I noticed at the cpap trial was that when I woke up I still had all the covers on! Usually I toss them all off during the night, and wake up in a sweat. I hadn’t even sweated at all! Is the night sweats from struggling to breath? I am really anxious to get the cpap now that I know I can tollerate it – are there any Ontario – Canada people on this newsgroup that could tell me what the good units available here are? Thanks! Barb
In article <3833A0C2.22870…@oxford.net>, Dear Barb As I am sure you are aware you are eligible for some funding for your CPAP unit, this requires that you select units that are on the funding agencies approved list, the newest units to make this list are the Respironics Remstar LX model and the Puritan Bennett Companion 418 both of these units are very good and have the latest technology, these units are basic units as compared to the "auto CPAP" units, however there is no funding for auto cpap units.I would suggest that when you get your unit, that you get all of your accessories (i.e. humidifier) at that time, because the funding is for one time only . If you wish to view the units that are available in Ontario, you can do so at www.cpap.on.ca regards Miraldi Barb <amo…@oxford.net> wrote: > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> > <html> > well, here goes. I’ve never posted to a newsgroup before – hope this comes > thru ok! I was just diagnosed with sleep apnea – I don’t know if it was > severe or not – the doctor said I had 391 "incidents" in the 6 hours of > sleep, and 61 arousals per hour. Is this alot? What is considered
mild/average/severe? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <p>After the diagnosis, I went the next week (just last monday) to try > the cpap. Well, I got to be the subject of a bit of an experiment – just > that day a new mask was brought in to try – very, very small and light > – just barely fits over the nose. Apparently these are not available yet > but will be soon. > <p>I didn’t have much trouble adjusting, but I did wake up a couple of > times during the night because the mask was leaking, and I had to readjust > it. In the morning I found out that they had to adjust the air level to > 11 to keep my blood oxygen high and breathing normal – is that a high level? > Was that why I was having the air leakage problem? > <p>I woke up feeling pretty refreshed – however I have to wait until January > 4, 2000 to get my results and get my cpap – it seems a long time to me > to have to wait – is that the average wait after the cpap trial? > <p>Anyway – I was interested to read about the night sweats – one of the > things I noticed at the cpap trial was that when I woke up I still had > all the covers on! Usually I toss them all off during the night, and wake > up in a sweat. I hadn’t even sweated at all! Is the night sweats from struggling > to breath? > <p>I am really anxious to get the cpap now that I know I can tollerate > it – are there any Ontario – Canada people on this newsgroup that could > tell me what the good units available here are? > <p>Thanks! > <p>Barb > <br> > <br> </html>
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Barb wondered: > … 61 arousals per hour. Is this alot?
Yes. It’s considered severe. 5 or less is normal. 5-20 is mild, 20-40 is moderate, and 40+ is severe. > … they had to adjust the air level to 11 to keep my > blood oxygen high and breathing normal – is that > a high level? Was that why I was having the air > leakage problem?
11 cm H2O pressure isn’t all that high. But pressure and severity of the apnea do not correlate. Some people with higher pressure have milder apnea. And the other way around. It’s the pressure YOU need to keep your airway open. Air leakage normally just results from having to get adjusted to the mask. There are some tricks that make it work better. Clean your face before bed. Lie down, THEN adjust the mask. Don’t over tighten it. Most masks require that you actually decrease the pressure on the straps. It’s counter intuitive, but it works. > … I have to wait until January 4, 2000 to get my > results and get my cpap – it seems a long time to > me to have to wait – is that the average wait after > the cpap trial?
No. It’s really quite long. It should only take at most a couple of weeks. But it always depends on where you live, how overloaded the sleep lab is, and how much paper work / approval work must be done. > Is the night sweats from struggling to breath?
Absolutely. This can put a terrible burden on your body during your sleep. If left unchecked it probably would result in irreversible cardiovascular problems. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher
I also was newly diagnosed, after I took the first half of the test they sent me to take the second part (using CPAP) in ten day because of the problems they noticed. I was waking an average of 70 times an hour and my blood oxygen was less than 40% at times. I am on a BiPAP now and feel much better.
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Yeah, they are not even smart enough to re-phrase it so that it doesn’t sound like it comes straight out of a textbook!!! John
LOL, how do students expect to learn anything unless they use their own brain? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – welcome to alt.accounting.do.my.homework Hi, I need help with following: a) Describe any difficulties in claculating the actual cost of material and labour inccured in the manufacture of the items that consumers purchase. b) Demonstrate how the significance of these cost elements will vary from product to product c) Indicate how accurate the costs are likely to be, and whether they could have any relevance to the price you pay for them d) Create simple numerical examples to support your point of view If anybody can help, please write Thank you!
Hi, I need help with following: a) Describe any difficulties in claculating the actual cost of material and labour inccured in the manufacture of the items that consumers purchase. b) Demonstrate how the significance of these cost elements will vary from product to product c) Indicate how accurate the costs are likely to be, and whether they could have any relevance to the price you pay for them d) Create simple numerical examples to support your point of view If anybody can help, please write Thank you!
welcome to alt.accounting.do.my.homework – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I need help with following: a) Describe any difficulties in claculating the actual cost of material and labour inccured in the manufacture of the items that consumers purchase. b) Demonstrate how the significance of these cost elements will vary from product to product c) Indicate how accurate the costs are likely to be, and whether they could have any relevance to the price you pay for them d) Create simple numerical examples to support your point of view If anybody can help, please write Thank you!
As far as I know, the FDA has no armed agents in its direct employ. (I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.) Therefore, the "agents" in question were probably US marshals, FBI, or possibly ATF. Although those agencies are certainly capable of abuse of power (Waco and Ruby Ridge come to mind), I don’t see how they could function as the private army of the pharmaceutical industry. Any raid(s) they conduct must be justified by search warrants and ultimately must be defended in court. In other words, what’s the *other side* of the story you tell in such dramatic terms as a tale of little guys getting raided by evil big brother? What were the LEF and your friends selling that earned them a visit from the FDA with a search warrant?
This is an extremely naive view of the reality of big government efforcement agencies. Do you not know, for example, that many people have lost their vehicles permanently, simply because they were parked outside houses of drug dealers who were raided? Can you not imagine that Waco and Ruby Ridge are only the most extreme tip of the iceberg which we all hear about? and that it is reasonable and even likely that there are enormous somewhat lesser, but still horrendous abuses that we never hear about? I’m not saying that specific abuses of power didn’t or don’t happen. The kind of guys who get off on conducting raids and executing warrants tend to be the zealously violent source, and I could imagine superfluous destruction happening on such a raid fairly easily. We certainly have seen that kind of thing in connection with the ridiculous war on drugs," and to some extent against the (otherwise disgusting) far right anti-government gun-rights wacko faction, unfortunately legitimating too many of their claims, at least in their own minds. Could you perhaps suggest some sources where one might confirm these horror stories in objective, mainstream publications (e.g., THe New York Times, as opposed to *Soldier of Fortune* or the LEF magazine?) I’m willing to stand corrected, but I’m used to hearing such horror stories of "gestapo-like" raids by federal agents which turn out to be stories with two legitimate sides from my contacts on the far right.
Okay, I see here you are being more reasonable. I am not a good person to ask, since I generally simply read these things and let them go by. My interest is not in the area of documenting such abuses but instead in science. LEF has full documentation of many such. Exactly what would constitute evidence that you would believe? –Tom Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION – http://www.lef.org – 800-544-4440 A non-profit membership organization dedicated to the extension of the healthy human lifespan through ground breaking research, innovative ideas and practical methods. LIFE EXTENSION MAGAZINE – The ultimate source for new health and medical findings from around the world.
I did some poking around in the "Life Extension Foundation" website, which is an impressive piece of work.
I am glad to see you visited the LEF web site. This is the only "Foundation" (a name whioch usually connotes a non-profit entity, as does the domain .org on the website, although I can’t determine from the website if LEF is non-profit or not)
LEF is an IRS 501(c)(3) non-for-profit corporation. They contribute to research 100% of any donations which they receive. Their sale of products is for the purpose of raising money for research rather than needing to "beg" for it, and also to make available as soon as possible to the American public, the very latest discoveries in supplemental and nutritional therapies from all over the world. I have ever seen which *sells* a line of products,
There are many other foundations which have wholly owned for-profit subsidiaries. Such an arrangement is perfectly legal and actually makes a lot of sense as a potential income source for the foundation. LEF does this "in-house". There is nothing wrong with it so long as all the accounting and dispostion of the income is done according to the regulations governing 501(c)(3) corporations. These regulations themselves put limitations on any money which the operators can remove (reasonable salaries only) and require that all yearly excess "income" be spent on the charitable purposes of the organization. This is exactly what LEF does with all "profits" from the sale of their products. By law and IRS accounting regulations, there is nothing else they can do with that money. calling into question any claims to "scientific" objectivity on this website.
Sigh 
Here we go again back to this old question of reasons for, and abilities of being objective or non-objective. To summarize once again: 1. Everyone has some particular viewpoint (bias) to each question. 2. Whether one is objective or not depends on many factors. 3. Money is only one of these factors and not necessarily the most important one. 4. The objectivity of a person depends highly on his/her personal attributes and on the particular item under discussion. 5. Organizations are composed of individuals. LEF especially does not promulgate any top-down "positions" from which its employees are forbidden to deviate. (If you call up the advisor number for advise, on some controversial issue you will get different advice from different people. Certainly, I am totally free to differ with opinions on the LEF web site and I sometime do.) It also contains a disclaimer to the effect that anyone taking their advice is supposed to do so in consultation with their physician or other health care professionals, despite all the heated rhetoric about "freedom of choice" and all the conspiracy theories about the FDA and the medical establishment. If these people believed what they were saying, the disclaimer wouldn’t be necessary. It’s a clear attempt to limit their own liability for the many unproven and potentially risky therapies they recommend . . . and SELL.
Either you don’t understand or have forgotten about the effects of several laws in this country. These laws are that forbidding practicing medicine without a license, and that forbidding making claims that a certain product will have any beneficial effects for any disease unless that product is approved for that purpose by the FDA. Since LEF has therapies on their web site and available in book form which suggest that certain nutrients, drugs and lifestyle changes will be beneficial for prevention or cure of certain diseases, such a disclaimer is absolutely necessary to avoid prosecution. Naturally both the operators of LEF and myself believe that such laws are a direct violation of our first amendment rights of freedom of speach. I would be perfectly satisfied if there were no FDA but every American who used OTC "nutritional supplements" routinely consulted their MD physicians about their drug choices. Unfortunately, very few do.
This is at least partly because of the lack of knowledge of most physicians about drugs which are not being flogged by the major pharmaceutical manufacturers. And, BTW, your singling out of "MD" physicians is an unwarranted discrimination against "DO" physician who are often more knowledgeable about effect non-pharmaceutical therapies. Don’t get me wrong — there’s a lot of good information on their website. But pictures of armed government agents in pharmacies which imply that the FDA is a fascist anti-freedom organization are ridiculously inflammatory and in my opinion indefensible.
This is only because it hasn’t happened to you, yet. How many people would you like to hear from who were as positive about the FDA as you are until they got "stomped" on? –Tom Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION – http://www.lef.org – 800-544-4440 A non-profit membership organization dedicated to the extension of the healthy human lifespan through ground breaking research, innovative ideas and practical methods. LIFE EXTENSION MAGAZINE – The ultimate source for new health and medical findings from around the world.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But pictures of armed government agents in pharmacies which imply that the FDA is a fascist anti-freedom organization are ridiculously inflammatory and in my opinion indefensible. {AF} is probably unaware, as are most people, that the FDA raided the Life Extension Foundation with guns drawn and seized the assets of the company. The agents actually swooped down on the building in which the Life Extension offices resided in a helicopter! The FDA has executed other armed raids against physicians and others. As far as I know, the FDA has no armed agents in its direct employ. (I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.) Therefore, the "agents" in question were probably US marshals, FBI, or possibly ATF. Although those agencies are certainly capable of abuse of power (Waco and Ruby Ridge come to mind), I don’t see how they could function as the private army of the pharmaceutical industry.
Well, however they do it, they do. A raid similar to that described in the previous post occured in Tacoma WA in May 1992. Jonathan Wright, MD (an advocate of nutritional medicine) , had armed agents confiscate much of his office equipment, records, etc. He has since spent $100K in defense seeking the return of his equipment, without success. He was never charged by the federal thugs, er, government. I *wish* I were making this up. I’m not. Wrights raid was well documented in the local media at the time. The closest thing to a justification I ever heard for this raid? He had some (B) vitamans from Federal Republic of Germany that were approved for import. (I don’t know if that is actually true or not). Sounds like a pretty dangerous criminal, eh? "Better set your weapons on full-auto, boys, this here’s one bad hombre!" — Ray Berry kb7ht Redmond WA. REPLY TO: rjberry at eskimo dot com
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In all seriousness, I apologize for my slightly churlish remark about the "abstract"/"extract" spelling error in your previous post — I did not mean to raise it to the level of "calling you a liar." On the other hand, you have been pretty sharp-tongued with me too Tom. Let’s nip it in the bud., huh? I think our respective positions are pretty clear, and while I disagree with yours almost wholly, I respect your seriousness. You think Prozac and Estrogen should be as easily available as Saint John’s Wort and DHEA, and that the general population should be trusted to figure out what to take and what to avoid on their own, under a doctrine of economic freedom of choice. I think that entails a dangerous scenario for abuse and misuse given the general venality of the makers of consumer health products and the general ignorance of matters scientific which prevails in the population, and the scientific need for controls over experimental data to make further progress in the development of new medicines, so I favor regulating all drugs, equally, and improving the efficiency and openness of the regulatory process. You’re a libertarian, I’m a (classical) conservative. There are merits to both positions, and neither will win the day completely. Please accept my apology for any implication that you were "lying" about the typo.
I accept! With this post you have raised your stature in my estimation back to what I saw when I first read your posts many months ago and then quit doing so because I am more interested in posting about nutrient and supplement science than I am in regulatory/political positions. I too will agree to quit taking "swipes" at you and to instead debate the facts when and where I see that to be necessary. –Tom Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION – http://www.lef.org – 800-544-4440 A non-profit membership organization dedicated to the extension of the healthy human lifespan through ground breaking research, innovative ideas and practical methods. LIFE EXTENSION MAGAZINE – The ultimate source for new health and medical findings from around the world.
I thought it ironic and sad that we lost both two magnificent and famous advocates of scientific medicine and vaccine programs in the developing world (Dr. J. Mann and Dr. Mary Lou Clements Mann) AND a respected naturopathic MD (Dr. N. Carter) in the Swissair disaster. It seems to me to be worth a pause to reflect. Whatever our differences on matters of medical philosophy and principle, this serves as a stark reminder that in the long run our differences are less significant than our shared humanity and our common mortality and fragility as living organic and feeling beings. AF
I thought it ironic and sad that we lost both two magnificent and famous advocates of scientific medicine and vaccine programs in the developing world (Dr. J. Mann and Dr. Mary Lou Clements Mann) AND a respected naturopathic MD (Dr. N. Carter) in the Swissair disaster. It seems to me to be worth a pause to reflect. Whatever our differences on matters of medical philosophy and principle, this serves as a stark reminder that in the long run our differences are less significant than our shared humanity and our common mortality and fragility as living organic and feeling beings.
What a sweet, bleeding heart you can be when you are not accusing someone of being a liar. –Tom Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION – http://www.lef.org – 800-544-4440 A non-profit membership organization dedicated to the extension of the healthy human lifespan through ground breaking research, innovative ideas and practical methods. LIFE EXTENSION MAGAZINE – The ultimate source for new health and medical findings from around the world.
"calling you a liar." On the other hand, you have been pretty sharp-tongued with me too Tom. Let’s nip it in the bud., huh? I think our respective positions are pretty clear, and while I disagree with yours almost wholly, I respect your seriousness.
Tom insults everybody who disagrees with him. That’s his nature. Get used to it. Nothing you can say will change him.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought it ironic and sad that we lost both two magnificent and famous advocates of scientific medicine and vaccine programs in the developing world (Dr. J. Mann and Dr. Mary Lou Clements Mann) AND a respected naturopathic MD (Dr. N. Carter) in the Swissair disaster. It seems to me to be worth a pause to reflect. Whatever our differences on matters of medical philosophy and principle, this serves as a stark reminder that in the long run our differences are less significant than our shared humanity and our common mortality and fragility as living organic and feeling beings. What a sweet, bleeding heart you can be when you are not accusing someone of being a liar.
What a clever ironist you can be when you are not accusing someone of being elitist, paternalistic, and condescending. In all seriousness, I apologize for my slightly churlish remark about the "abstract"/"extract" spelling error in your previous post — I did not mean to raise it to the level of "calling you a liar." On the other hand, you have been pretty sharp-tongued with me too Tom. Let’s nip it in the bud., huh? I think our respective positions are pretty clear, and while I disagree with yours almost wholly, I respect your seriousness. You think Prozac and Estrogen should be as easily available as Saint John’s Wort and DHEA, and that the general population should be trusted to figure out what to take and what to avoid on their own, under a doctrine of economic freedom of choice. I think that entails a dangerous scenario for abuse and misuse given the general venality of the makers of consumer health products and the general ignorance of matters scientific which prevails in the population, and the scientific need for controls over experimental data to make further progress in the development of new medicines, so I favor regulating all drugs, equally, and improving the efficiency and openness of the regulatory process. You’re a libertarian, I’m a (classical) conservative. There are merits to both positions, and neither will win the day completely. Please accept my apology for any implication that you were "lying" about the typo. AF
But pictures of armed government agents in pharmacies which imply that the FDA is a fascist anti-freedom organization are ridiculously inflammatory and in my opinion indefensible.
Mr. Fox is probably unaware, as are most people, that the FDA raided the Life Extension Foundation with guns drawn and seized the assets of the company. The agents actually swooped down on the building in which the Life Extension offices resided in a helicopter! The FDA has executed other armed raids against physicians and others. I have spoken personally with one individual who has been raided 3 times by the federal thugs. They took her checkbook 9 years ago and have yet to return it. In a recent issue of Insight Magazine, there is a story of FDA agents raiding a Stevia manufacturer. Stevia is a natural non-nutritive sweetener that is used in several countries. The agents confiscated and destroyed several cookbooks that provided information on how to use Stevia in cooking. The owners of the company began to video tape the federal book "burners." After defacing several copies of the book, the agents thought better of being captured on video and decided to cease their unconstitutional behavior. So, no the depiction of the FDA as an mini-gestapo isn’t too far from the truth. They are criminals with badges who will do anything to prevent nontoxic medicine from capturing the public’s attention, and to protect the multi-billion dollar drug machine. - Kelley William Kelley Eidem, author "The Doctor Who Cures Cancer" To order, go to
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But pictures of armed government agents in pharmacies which imply that the FDA is a fascist anti-freedom organization are ridiculously inflammatory and in my opinion indefensible. {AF} is probably unaware, as are most people, that the FDA raided the Life Extension Foundation with guns drawn and seized the assets of the company. The agents actually swooped down on the building in which the Life Extension offices resided in a helicopter! The FDA has executed other armed raids against physicians and others.
As far as I know, the FDA has no armed agents in its direct employ. (I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.) Therefore, the "agents" in question were probably US marshals, FBI, or possibly ATF. Although those agencies are certainly capable of abuse of power (Waco and Ruby Ridge come to mind), I don’t see how they could function as the private army of the pharmaceutical industry. Any raid(s) they conduct must be justified by search warrants and ultimately must be defended in court. In other words, what’s the *other side* of the story you tell in such dramatic terms as a tale of little guys getting raided by evil big brother? What were the LEF and your friends selling that earned them a visit from the FDA with a search warrant? I’m not saying that specific abuses of power didn’t or don’t happen. The kind of guys who get off on conducting raids and executing warrants tend to be the zealously violent source, and I could imagine superfluous destruction happening on such a raid fairly easily. We certainly have seen that kind of thing in connection with the ridiculous war on drugs," and to some extent against the (otherwise disgusting) far right anti-government gun-rights wacko faction, unfortunately legitimating too many of their claims, at least in their own minds. Could you perhaps suggest some sources where one might confirm these horror stories in objective, mainstream publications (e.g., THe New York Times, as opposed to *Soldier of Fortune* or the LEF magazine?) I’m willing to stand corrected, but I’m used to hearing such horror stories of "gestapo-like" raids by federal agents which turn out to be stories with two legitimate sides from my contacts on the far right. AF
I am thinking of buying a used car (‘94 or ‘95 Taurus, Lumina or Intrepid; I haven’t decided which; or similar) and would like some info regarding AutoNation USA and other used car chains that have popped up lately. Are they any better than some of the dealers or local used car lots or are they just as bad? Any comments (good or bad) about these companies would be appreciated. Please reply to message through the newsgroup. Thanks — Paul D. There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics. If statistics are worse than damn lies, then what does that make accounting?
I am thinking of buying a used car (‘94 or ‘95 Taurus, Lumina or Intrepid; I haven’t decided which; or similar) and would like some info regarding AutoNation USA and other used car chains that have popped up lately. Are they any better than some of the dealers or local used car lots or are they just as bad? Any comments (good or bad) about these companies would be appreciated. Please reply to message through the newsgroup.
We’ve got an AutoNation here in Phoenix. I have 2 observations: 1. I like the "no haggle" pricing policy (much simpler) 2. Their prices seemed high. I can find better prices (with no haggle) at a local dealer. Scott PS — I’d stay away from the Lumina. Try the Taurus. <==Just my .02
) writes:
(professing his faith in "HIV", which, like God, there is only indirect evidence for) We’re far beyond that point. We now even have the three-dimensional structures defined:
Defining the 3D structure of a protein doesn’t tell you anything about where the protein came from or if it is indeed part of a viral particle (you know, that one that they cannot purify completely, the one that has about 30 or so human proteins associated with it after purification). The source of their "p24" (aka, capsid) is not given, but rest assured it was not from any culture of "HIV" (the gold standard source of material). They undoubtedly have used a cloned sequence that someone told them was from "HIV", mainly for practical reasons, since you could never get enough pure "HIV" from any culture to do structure studies of individual proteins. I wonder what 3D structures they would find if they used proteins produced from all the variant sequences of p24? Now that would be an interesting study. I would bet some of them don’t fold into any kind of recognizable structure, which would make you wonder how all these "p24’s" do whatever they’re supposed to do, in spite of the claims made about them. Also, a note on the uniqueness of p24–many "HIV-" pregnant women have a p24 antigen in their placenta around the time of birth. So much for p24 being synonymous with "infection" or belonging solely to the "HIV". Todd Miller, PhD
Also, a note on the uniqueness of p24–many "HIV-" pregnant women have a p24 antigen in their placenta around the time of birth. So much for p24 being synonymous with "infection" or belonging solely to the "HIV". Todd Miller, PhD
You are careful to call it *a* p24 antigen, not *the* p24 antigen. In as much as the designation p24 refers only to the size of a protein, perhaps you could provide some information on the degree or relatedness and cross reactivity of placental p24 from HIV uninfected (seronegative) mothers and assays for the p24 antigen of HIV.
"Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of which is a long-winded way of admitting that you can’t find a reference to isolation of "HIV" either. So now the customary question we ask people stuffed with pompous delusions about what they "know" (or think they know) about "HIV", is whether you appreciate why it is important to achieve a proper isolation of the "virus"? [...] Some retroviruses grow well in culture, some don’t. However, molecular biology allows much to be done with small amounts of virus. As I have said above, complete sequences of the RNA has been accomplished and sequences of individual genes have been used to demonstrate transmission. I don’t know what "proper isolation" refers to, but there is ample evidence that HIV exists, is associated with AIDS, and elimination of HIV improves the health of AIDS patients (which is why viral lode is a good prognostic indicator).
All of which is a long-winded way of admitting you don’t understand why proper isolation matters. And if you won’t read, and aren’t prepared to educate yourself, what more can be done to help you? John — "In going back to the origins of HIV virology and telling the HIV story, a view will be presented which will make clear that HIV itself, the very object of this Manhattan Project of modern medicine, does not exist." Dr. Stefan Lanka, virologist.
Duesberg doesn’t really have to say much, read jay Levy instead if these drugs do not assist CMI and boost CTLs then they are not much good since 1) most HIV RNA in plasma is non-infectious 2) HIV DNA cell to cell transmission is far more efficient (though only 1% cells replicating at any time) perhaps PIs have an antibiotic effect or make people feel "better" since they may reduce the CMI response, thereby reducing inflammation and unwell feelings that come from the immune system fighting multiple antigens perhaps the non-specific action on ALL aspartic protease is reducing other conditions which rely on this enzyme such as candida albicans and other fungal infections (antibiotic effect) however, if PIs affect the chemical messengers in such a way as to down regulate the CMI arm, or cause a reduction in CTLs much like AZT can potentially do (as can all nucleoside analogues), then this chemotherapy could be lowering immunity along with HIVs action on the IL2 and ultimately setting the user up for a big crash not to mention the potential liver toxicity in a population where 50% of HIV+ve people have alcohol or substance abuse problems stephen himself : [ ....mid-80's mantra: ] : : Attacking HIV makes people live longer. : Not so far. Haven’t you noticed? Duesgerg’s advice (below) is : still the best. : John : — : "If somebody says you are antibody positive, just say, "Fine! That : protects me against anything the virus can do to me." That would : be my reaction." : Prof. Duesberg to John Lauritsen, quoted in The AIDS War — STEPHEN |As it cracks apart in your faith|
"Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: John, The literature is full of complete HIV sequences. All of which is a long-winded way of admitting that you can’t find a reference to isolation of "HIV" either. So now the customary question we ask people stuffed with pompous delusions about what they "know" (or think they know) about "HIV", is whether you appreciate why it is important to achieve a proper isolation of the "virus"?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: John, The literature is full of complete HIV sequences. Genes from countless strains have been isolated and sequenced. Antibodies have been made to HIV without even isolating it (by making antibodies to the synthetic peptides of the predicted sequence of the proteins). Protease inhibitors as well as integrase inhibitors have been made against other proteins. All of which is a long-winded way of admitting that you can’t find a reference to isolation of "HIV" either. So now the customary question we ask people stuffed with pompous delusions about what they "know" (or think they know) about "HIV", is whether you appreciate why it is important to achieve a proper isolation of the "virus"?
Idiot. The following reference has been posted here many times: Unique Identifier 40100890 Data Source INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON AIDS Authors Krust B. Laurent AG. Hellio R. Montagnier L. Hovanessian AG. Institution Institut Pasteur, 25, rue du Dr. Roux 75724 Paris Cedex 15, France Title Different forms of p25 are associated with infectious and non infectious viral particles produced by HIV-1 infected cells. Source Int Conf AIDS. 6(2):316 (abstract no. 1008), 1990 Jun 20-23. Abstract OBJECTIVES: Four subspecies of p25, a, b, c and d, with related PI values, are produced by HIV-1 infected cells. The two forms a and b are in part incorporated into the HIV-1 virion, whereas species c and d along with a proportion of species a and b are expressed at the cell surface and also excreted. The characterization of these different forms is described here. METHODS: Cell culture supernatants of HIV-1 infected cells were fractionated by isopycnic centrifugation along a sucrose gradient, and the different fractions containing viral proteins were analyzed. RESULTS: Three major peaks containing the different subspecies of p25 were recovered: peak A at a sucrose density of 1.150 containing p25a, p25b, gp120, p68 and p55, peak B at a sucrose density of 1.080 containing the same proteins as peak A; peak C at a sucrose density of 1.050 containing p25 a, b, c, d and p40. Only peak A was infectious. Negative staining electron microscopy of the different fractions indicated the presence of particles of different sizes: 120 nm in peak A containing infectious virus; 20-50 nm in peaks B and C. CONCLUSION: Infectious and non infectious particles are produced by HIV-1 infected cells. The four species of p25 can be used as convenient markers to identify these particles. We’re far beyond that point. We now even have the three-dimensional structures defined: Structure of the Amino-Terminal Core Domain of the HIV-1 Capsid Protein Science, July 12th, 1996 Rossitza K. Gitti, * Brian M. Lee, * Jill Walker, Michael F. Summers, Sanghee Yoo, Wesley I. Sundquist The three-dimensional structure of the amino-terminal core domain (residues 1 through 151) of the human immunodeficiency virus-type 1 (HIV-1) capsid protein has been solved by multidimensional heteronuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. The structure is unlike those of previously characterized viral coat proteins and is composed of seven helices, two hairpins, and an exposed partially ordered loop. The domain is shaped like an arrowhead, with the hairpins and loop exposed at the trailing edge and the carboxyl-terminal helix projecting from the tip. The proline residue Pro1 forms a salt bridge with a conserved, buried aspartate residue (Asp51), which suggests that the amino terminus of the protein rearranges upon proteolytic maturation. The binding site for cyclophilin A, a cellular rotamase that is packaged into the HIV-1 virion, is located on the exposed loop and encompasses the essential proline residue Pro90. In the free monomeric domain, Pro90 adopts kinetically trapped cis and trans conformations, raising the possibility that cyclophilin A catalyzes interconversion of the cis- and trans-Pro90 loop structures.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: John, The literature is full of complete HIV sequences. Genes from countless strains have been isolated and sequenced. Antibodies have been made to HIV without even isolating it (by making antibodies to the synthetic peptides of the predicted sequence of the proteins). Protease inhibitors as well as integrase inhibitors have been made against other proteins. All of which is a long-winded way of admitting that you can’t find a reference to isolation of "HIV" either. So now the customary question we ask people stuffed with pompous delusions about what they "know" (or think they know) about "HIV", is whether you appreciate why it is important to achieve a proper isolation of the "virus"? It is surprising how many people don’t. (Antibodies made to an unverified "virus"? How would you know? You need to read Dr Taylor’s radio broadcast transcript. This is very basic stuff.) I haven’t read the garbage that you cite, but I’m sure the authors have done well financially, peddling the trash to unfortunate people who are grasping at straws. I tell you frankly that unless you are prepared to read and learn you will make an even bigger fool of yourself than you have so far. You cannot acquire knowledge by osmosis. Dissident web-sites are free, so your complaints on that score are as hollow as your beliefs.
I tell you frankly, john, that so long as you put your confidence in people who are so far behind the scientific times as to be living in the past you will continue to delude your self. Which is of course the goal of the exercise. HIV has been isolated, identified, purified, and characterized as well as it is possible to do for any microorganism. Its identity is accepted by international organizations on systematics (the branch of biology related to naming and classifying) whose job it is to review claims of "isolation" and which are not creatures of "HIV science". The standards of such groups have been met and they are the contemporary standards of the field, not some criteria proffered 20 years ago. The logic that because one man or group claims that if some additional proof — specifically a photo taken under certain conditions and appearing in a published journal — is not put forward then all other proofs will collapse is badly flawed. Indeed, even the criteria you assert as the sine qua non did not require publication in a peer reviewed journal. In as much as such photos have been taken, reported on and exhibited at an international meeting there the criteria you keep asserting are the only ones, those from the Institute Pasteur, have been met! It is time to give up the delusion that so long as the "Continuum prize" is unclaimed, HIV can be maintained not to exist.
[..peep..peep..peep...] In any event, whether you are HIV-infected or not, you are a sad, tiresome person. I don’t like you but I feel at least I should offer you this perspective (which, I predict, you will reject). Please take it in the spirit of the last shred of good will I feel toward you as another human being rather than my typical animosity (which you may rest assured has not evaporated).
Dear Little Miss Chicken, If you ever stopped posting reams of abusive claptrap I would have to start worrying. At least while you are busy occupying your time producing elaborate (yet so feeble) insults you cannot also be misdirecting vulnerable people towards poisonous medical intervention. Good for them. (But probably bad for you.) John — Prof Duesberg, when explaining how AZT kills elements of the immune system most needed by immunocompromised people, was asked about its side effects: "Side effects? Side effects! It has no *side* effects. It has only one effect: it’s killing cells every single day you take it. That’s its effect." Interview on KEST AM radio, July 27 1995
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: John, The literature is full of complete HIV sequences. Genes from countless strains have been isolated and sequenced. Antibodies have been made to HIV without even isolating it (by making antibodies to the synthetic peptides of the predicted sequence of the proteins). Protease inhibitors as well as integrase inhibitors have been made against other proteins. All of which is a long-winded way of admitting that you can’t find a reference to isolation of "HIV" either. So now the customary question we ask people stuffed with pompous delusions about what they "know" (or think they know) about "HIV", is whether you appreciate why it is important to achieve a proper isolation of the "virus"? It is surprising how many people don’t. (Antibodies made to an unverified "virus"? How would you know? You need to read Dr Taylor’s radio broadcast transcript. This is very basic stuff.)
Some retroviruses grow well in culture, some don’t. However, molecular biology allows much to be done with small amounts of virus. As I have said above, complete sequences of the RNA has been accomplished and sequences of individual genes have been used to demonstrate transmission. I don’t know what "proper isolation" refers to, but there is ample evidence that HIV exists, is associated with AIDS, and elimination of HIV improves the health of AIDS patients (which is why viral lode is a good prognostic indicator). Henry N Fox Chapel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t read the garbage that you cite, but I’m sure the authors have done well financially, peddling the trash to unfortunate people who are grasping at straws. I tell you frankly that unless you are prepared to read and learn you will make an even bigger fool of yourself than you have so far. You cannot acquire knowledge by osmosis. Dissident web-sites are free, so your complaints on that score are as hollow as your beliefs. John — "In going back to the origins of HIV virology and telling the HIV story, a view will be presented which will make clear that HIV itself, the very object of this Manhattan Project of modern medicine, does not exist." Dr. Stefan Lanka, virologist.
"Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: John, The literature is full of complete HIV sequences. Genes from countless strains have been isolated and sequenced. Antibodies have been made to HIV without even isolating it (by making antibodies to the synthetic peptides of the predicted sequence of the proteins). Protease inhibitors as well as integrase inhibitors have been made against other proteins.
All of which is a long-winded way of admitting that you can’t find a reference to isolation of "HIV" either. So now the customary question we ask people stuffed with pompous delusions about what they "know" (or think they know) about "HIV", is whether you appreciate why it is important to achieve a proper isolation of the "virus"? It is surprising how many people don’t. (Antibodies made to an unverified "virus"? How would you know? You need to read Dr Taylor’s radio broadcast transcript. This is very basic stuff.) I haven’t read the garbage that you cite, but I’m sure the authors have done well financially, peddling the trash to unfortunate people who are grasping at straws.
I tell you frankly that unless you are prepared to read and learn you will make an even bigger fool of yourself than you have so far. You cannot acquire knowledge by osmosis. Dissident web-sites are free, so your complaints on that score are as hollow as your beliefs. John — "In going back to the origins of HIV virology and telling the HIV story, a view will be presented which will make clear that HIV itself, the very object of this Manhattan Project of modern medicine, does not exist." Dr. Stefan Lanka, virologist.
Following is the text version of a letter that was sent to the Director of NIH concerning his agency’s role in offering dissident AIDS scientists bribes to Cover-up the AIDS debate. For those who would like to learn more about the AIDS Cover-up, please visit the CENSORSHIP BYPASS web site at: http://www.kaiwan.com/~bypass July 11 , 1996 VIA FEDERAL EXPRESS Joel A. Schwartz 3463 State Street, #135 Santa Barbara, CA 93105 Dr. Harold E. Varmus Director, National Institutes of Health 1 Center Drive Bldg. #1, Room 126 Bethesda, MD 20892 (ph) 301-496-2433 Dear Dr. Varmus, As you know, for several years there has been a scientific debate over the cause of AIDS. A growing body of researchers are disputing the claim that HIV causes the AIDS epidemic, suggesting that something else may be the real cause. This debate has, of course, many far-reaching consequences. It throws into question the entire course of federal spending and policy in the War on AIDS, including the current treatments for AIDS. However, a new and larger issue is beginning to emerge from this controversy. A growing body of evidence indicates that governmental agencies, acting directly or through the Public Health lobby, have been attempting to hide the AIDS controversy from public knowledge. According to this evidence, various Public Health officials have used influence, bribery, and intimidation to silence dissent among scientists, in the communications media, and in other public forums. As the scandal of a government cover-up becomes public knowledge, taxpayers and voters are demanding a full accounting of the secret measures being used to silence dissent. I am writing on behalf of this growing movement. It has come to our attention that the National Institutes of Health (NIH) has been one of the participants in this cover-up. Specifically, testimony of Dr. Peter H. Duesberg, a virologist at the University of California at Berkeley and one of the dissenting scientists in this AIDS debate, has revealed that officials of the NIH have offered him compensation in return for recanting his position on AIDS. But Dr. Duesberg has so far refused to identify these officials or the exact terms of the offers. As director of the NIH, you bear full responsibility for extra-legal actions taken by your agency, and therefore, you owe the American public a full disclosure of the facts. For the record, I now call on you to provide the answers to the following questions: 1) On November 9, 1995, Dr. Duesberg gave sworn testimony [Deposition, case 95 Civ. 0157 (JES), Regnery and Duesberg v. Ellison, Federal District Court, Southern District of New York] that an official of the NIH visited him in late 1994 and made him an offer in exchange for his agreement to recant his views on AIDS. Dr. Duesberg confirmed the existence of this meeting in the book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" released this year (Regnery Publishing, Washington, D.C.), which lists him as the sole author. What was the exact date and place of that meeting? 2) What is the name of the NIH official with whom Dr. Duesberg met? 3) Who else was present at that meeting? 4) In Dr. Duesberg’s testimony, he stated that this NIH official handed him a letter declaring that HIV causes AIDS. On this letter were three names: Dr. Duesberg’s, and two others – one of whom he refers to as an "old friend." What were the names of these other signers? 5) Who authorized these NIH officials to make Dr. Duesberg this offer? Who else, in the government or elsewhere, was aware of this offer? 6) Dr. Duesberg has stated that, had he accepted the offer in full, the letter was to be published in "Nature" magazine. Dr. Duesberg has also mentioned "Nature" editor John Maddox as having been involved. Did John Maddox know about the offer, and the meeting, before they took place? Did Maddox agree to use his magazine as a forum to publish the letter? Which NIH officials were in contact with Maddox regarding this offer? Have you communicated with Maddox regarding this letter? If so, what did you and Maddox say? 7) Who actually wrote the letter? Please provide a copy of the complete letter. 
What, precisely, was Dr. Duesberg offered in return for signing the letter? 9) Precisely how long did Dr. Duesberg take to think over the offer? 10) What was Dr. Duesberg’s final answer to the offer? Did he accept any part of the offer? Did he make any counter-offers? 11) According to testimony we have received, Dr. Duesberg has privately admitted the existence of previous offers made to him by NIH officials in return for changing his position on AIDS. Written documents also suggest the existence of such offers. a) What were the exact dates and places of those meetings? b) What were the names of the persons who met with Dr. Duesberg at those times, or who helped arrange those meetings? c) Was Dr. Duesberg given letters to sign at any of those meetings? If so, please provide copies of each of those documents. d) Who authorized each of those offers? Who else was aware of those offers? e) What were the terms of each of those offers (what was Dr. Duesberg asked to do, and what was he promised in return)? f) How long did Dr. Duesberg take to make a decision on each of those offers? g) What was Dr. Duesberg’s answer to each of those offers? 12) Has the NIH offered Dr. Duesberg any such deals since 1994? 13) Has the NIH ever collaborated with Alfred Regnery (of Regnery Publishing), or any of his authors, agents or associates, on the AIDS issue? If so, what were the circumstances surrounding any such collaboration and what were the names (from both sides) of those involved? Certainly you must agree that the federal government cannot be allowed to censor this AIDS debate, or any other controversy, from public view. As a federal official overseeing much of the spending on AIDS research, you have a special responsibility to disclose all government attempts to suppress opposition. The public has a right to know. I therefore assume you will provide the above answers in a timely manner. Thank you. Sincerely, Joel A. Schwartz
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: Professor Duesberg’s new book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" has been very well received and is right up to date. It gains considerably in stature and credibility from the obvious vindication of his early research and conclusions. Definitely worth reading. Very well received by whom? The growing "Aids" dissident movement. Check out the list of scientists and others who support the Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV Hypothesis of Aids. A partial list is on the newest Rethinking AIDS WebSite: http://www.xs4all.nl/~raido and is also currently posted to this group. Did you miss it?
The list contains the names of people who are dead and the names of people who no longer support the GSR. THE GROUP FOR THE SCIENTIFIC REAPPRAISAL OF THE HIV-AIDS HYPOTHESIS PEOPLE ON THE LIST WHO DIED FROM AIDS: Michael Callen (Author ‘Surviving AIDS’, Hollywood, CA) Caspar Schmidt, M.D. (Psychiatrist, New York) Jody Wells (Continuum, London, UK) PEOPLE ON THE LIST WHO NO LONGER SUPPORT THE GSR: James M. Scutero (New York, NY) There are probably more names that should not be on the list for the above cited reasons. I’ve asked to have my name taken off of the list several times to no avail. In May of 1995, I came back to the realization that HIV causes AIDS. A trip to the hospital with OI’s will do that. I find that facing reality is much better than living in denial. In 1989, when I was first diagnosed with HIV, I had a fighting spirit. When I allowed myself to be sucked into the "rethink" cottage industry of denial I felt miserable. I was ripped-off, threatened with violence and belittled by the members of the GSR. Free-thought is not encouraged by the nattering nabobs of nuttiness at the GSR. Their forums are censored and they espose hero worship. I feel great now that I have left them and will continue to live and think for myself. BTW, johnnydog, I didn’t see him on the list, but is Cass Mann still alive? Just curious. james m. scutero, original proponent of misc.health.aids the newsgroup of acquired immune deficiency syndromes o_) * ” _/ /( misc.health.aids homepage`- http://www.panix.com/~jscutero surfin’ with aids. * (hot ascii surfer)
Not so far. Haven’t you noticed? Duesgerg’s advice (below) is still the best. "If somebody says you are antibody positive, just say, "Fine! That protects me against anything the virus can do to me." That would be my reaction." Prof. Duesberg to John Lauritsen, quoted in The AIDS War
The fact that you persist in making a fool of Duesberg by quoting this piece of immunologically-bankrupt tripe is a testament to your profound ignorance. People often develop antibodies to viruses yet still become ill. Either due to the pathological consequences of an unchecked infection and/or the sequelae of an aberrent, overactive immune response to the pathogen. John, if you are HIV+, you need some serious help. It is certainly your choice whether to do any therapies or not. But to try to justify the choice not to in the lame, half-assed way of making "pronouncements" the way you do smacks more of fear and denial than an understanding of the literature. As Dr. Holzman noted, you are more than entitled to your opinion. But it is weak and so full of holes if it were Swiss cheese you’d be hard-pressed to find the cheese. I think you need to slow down, take a break and look at your life. This is not meant to say "find the truth about drugs and start taking them." But rather realize that if there is HIV inside you, it may be doing you a great deal of harm–and there are many gentler, safer alternatives you might want to consider doing (even if they aren’t nearly as effective as the combinations of drugs). In any event, whether you are HIV-infected or not, you are a sad, tiresome person. I don’t like you but I feel at least I should offer you this perspective (which, I predict, you will reject). Please take it in the spirit of the last shred of good will I feel toward you as another human being rather than my typical animosity (which you may rest assured has not evaporated). George M. Carter
[ ....mid-80's mantra: ] Attacking HIV makes people live longer. Not so far.
Then you haven’t learned a damn thing here, have you ! Why are you so bitter towards the medical profession ? Do you just hate life? Were you rejected for medical school? There’s something you’re not telling us, JohnDogma !
"Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: I’ve worked in the lab, seen the virus, and talked to Peter Duesberg (many years ago). Again I suggest you need to familiarise yourself with the literature. All you are doing is demonstrating an obvious ignorance of the issues.
stupid…stupid…stupid… You’ve basically alienated yourself from everyone on this newsgroup ! Drugs which attach HIV make people live longer. Ignorance is not an adequate description of your actions any more.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: [...] He and I have isolated many retroviruses in the lab (the quantity was so high that you could actually see the banded virus in surcrose gels without the aid of a microscope). It was easy to visualize the proteins and enzymatic activities. The RNA has been isolated, copied into cDNA, and sequenced on many strains. Electron micrographs of the virus has been puclished countless time Where, when, by whom? Where is an EM of "HIV" prepared to the standard required by virologists such as Stefan Lanka, and the scientific team in Perth? And Dr Todd Miller. The kind that would demonstrate isolation. There’s a cash reward for that information. I’ve worked in the lab, seen the virus, and talked to Peter Duesberg (many years ago). James Scutero had a quote from "the virus" in his .sig for a while last year. Did it talk to you too? You would have been better off listening to Professor Duesberg. His AIDS theory is intellectually dishonest. Its a joke. On the subject of dishonesty, just provide the reference to the full isolation of "HIV", the virus you claim to have seen. Anyone who doubts the existance of the virus is incredibly ignorant or stupid. Retroviruses have been studied at various levels since the beginning if this century! Wake up. Dr Turner is neither ignorant nor stupid, to judge by his work. And it is a particular virus we are interested in, not viruses in general. Again I suggest you need to familiarise yourself with the literature. All you are doing is demonstrating an obvious ignorance of the issues. John
John, The literature is full of complete HIV sequences. Genes from countless strains have been isolated and sequenced. Antibodies have been made to HIV without even isolating it (by making antibodies to the synthetic peptides of the predicted sequence of the proteins). Protease inhibitors as well as integrase inhibitors have been made against other proteins. The scientific literature is very clear. I haven’t read the garbage that you cite, but I’m sure the authors have down well financially, peddling the trash to unfortunate people who are grasping at straws. Henry N Fox Chapel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — "They have not proven that they have actually detected a unique exogenous retrovirus. The critical data to support that idea have not been presented." Prof. J Papadimitriou, Univ of W.Australia
"Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: [...] He and I have isolated many retroviruses in the lab (the quantity was so high that you could actually see the banded virus in surcrose gels without the aid of a microscope). It was easy to visualize the proteins and enzymatic activities. The RNA has been isolated, copied into cDNA, and sequenced on many strains. Electron micrographs of the virus has been puclished countless time
Where, when, by whom? Where is an EM of "HIV" prepared to the standard required by virologists such as Stefan Lanka, and the scientific team in Perth? And Dr Todd Miller. The kind that would demonstrate isolation. There’s a cash reward for that information. I’ve worked in the lab, seen the virus, and talked to Peter Duesberg (many years ago).
James Scutero had a quote from "the virus" in his .sig for a while last year. Did it talk to you too? You would have been better off listening to Professor Duesberg. His AIDS theory is intellectually dishonest. Its a joke.
On the subject of dishonesty, just provide the reference to the full isolation of "HIV", the virus you claim to have seen. Anyone who doubts the existance of the virus is incredibly ignorant or stupid. Retroviruses have been studied at various levels since the beginning if this century! Wake up.
Dr Turner is neither ignorant nor stupid, to judge by his work. And it is a particular virus we are interested in, not viruses in general. Again I suggest you need to familiarise yourself with the literature. All you are doing is demonstrating an obvious ignorance of the issues. John — "They have not proven that they have actually detected a unique exogenous retrovirus. The critical data to support that idea have not been presented." Prof. J Papadimitriou, Univ of W.Australia
[ ....mid-80's mantra: ] Attacking HIV makes people live longer. Not so far. Haven’t you noticed? Duesgerg’s advice (below) is still the best. John —
John, I think you missed the protease data. Henry N Fox Chapel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"If somebody says you are antibody positive, just say, "Fine! That protects me against anything the virus can do to me." That would be my reaction." Prof. Duesberg to John Lauritsen, quoted in The AIDS War
[ ....mid-80's mantra: ] Attacking HIV makes people live longer.
Not so far. Haven’t you noticed? Duesgerg’s advice (below) is still the best. John — "If somebody says you are antibody positive, just say, "Fine! That protects me against anything the virus can do to me." That would be my reaction." Prof. Duesberg to John Lauritsen, quoted in The AIDS War
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: Professor Duesberg’s new book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" has been very well received and is right up to date. It gains considerably in stature and credibility from the obvious vindication of his early research and conclusions. Definitely worth reading. Very well received by whom? The growing "Aids" dissident movement. Check out the list of scientists and others who support the Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV Hypothesis of Aids. A partial list is on the newest Rethinking AIDS WebSite: http://www.xs4all.nl/~raido and is also currently posted to this group. Did you miss it?
I saw the list a was not impressed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The protease data should put an end to the circular arguments. Without circular arguments, orthodox "Aids" is finished, so this is certainly an over-optimistic suggestion. Also as there is no way to measure levels of "HIV", or even to establish its existence, claims based around this assertion are patently misleading. What has Peter Duesberg done other than add some academic credentials to intellectually dishonest arguements? He has saved a lot of lives. He has exposed the dishonesty of the conventional model of "Aids", and drawn attention to the appalling level of fraud and deception involved in this murderous pogrom. His was the first and most important scientific work to show the "virus" theory to be mistaken. The accuracy of his conclusions are hardly in doubt, given the subsequent history of the phenomenon.
No one has shown the virus theory mistaken. You are clearly very ignorant of the history and science of the "Aids" phenomenon. You should spend some time reading Duesberg and also the later work done in Perth, Australia by the scientific team there. Start with the websites, if, like our doctors here, you are averse to reading books. Then you might at least sound less like a drug company shareholder and more like a PhD. John —
I am well aware of the history of HIV. As a graduate student, post doc, and staff scientist I went to the same RNA Tumor Virus in Cold Spring Harbor every May (I actually spent my honeymoon there in 1977 – I was in NY and my wife was in NJ) that Peter Duesberg attended. He was better off sticking to the structural proteins of retroviruses or integration into DNA. He and I have isolated many retroviruses in the lab (the quantity was so high that you could actually see the banded virus in surcrose gels without the aid of a microscope). It was easy to visualize the proteins and enzymatic activities. The RNA has been isolated, copied into cDNA, and sequenced on many strains. Electron micrographs of the virus has been puclished countless time I’ve worked in the lab, seen the virus, and talked to Peter Duesberg (many years ago). His AIDS theory is intellectually dishonest. Its a joke. "HIV is a metaphor for a lot of quasi-related phenomena. No one has ever proved its existence as a virus. We don’t believe it exists." Dr. V. F. Turner, Royal Perth Hospital, Western Australia
Anyone who doubts the existance of the virus is incredibly ignorant or stupid. Retroviruses have been studied at various levels since the beginning if this century! Wake up. Henry N Fox Chapel
"Henry L. Niman, Ph.D." writes: Professor Duesberg’s new book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" has been very well received and is right up to date. It gains considerably in stature and credibility from the obvious vindication of his early research and conclusions. Definitely worth reading. Very well received by whom?
The growing "Aids" dissident movement. Check out the list of scientists and others who support the Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV Hypothesis of Aids. A partial list is on the newest Rethinking AIDS WebSite: http://www.xs4all.nl/~raido and is also currently posted to this group. Did you miss it? The protease data should put an end to the circular arguments.
Without circular arguments, orthodox "Aids" is finished, so this is certainly an over-optimistic suggestion. Also as there is no way to measure levels of "HIV", or even to establish its existence, claims based around this assertion are patently misleading. What has Peter Duesberg done other than add some academic credentials to intellectually dishonest arguements?
He has saved a lot of lives. He has exposed the dishonesty of the conventional model of "Aids", and drawn attention to the appalling level of fraud and deception involved in this murderous pogrom. His was the first and most important scientific work to show the "virus" theory to be mistaken. The accuracy of his conclusions are hardly in doubt, given the subsequent history of the phenomenon. You are clearly very ignorant of the history and science of the "Aids" phenomenon. You should spend some time reading Duesberg and also the later work done in Perth, Australia by the scientific team there. Start with the websites, if, like our doctors here, you are averse to reading books. Then you might at least sound less like a drug company shareholder and more like a PhD. John — "HIV is a metaphor for a lot of quasi-related phenomena. No one has ever proved its existence as a virus. We don’t believe it exists." Dr. V. F. Turner, Royal Perth Hospital, Western Australia
There seem to be a flurry of developments of news concerning the AIDS front, including the conference in Vancouver. Do we have an update and comments from Peter Duesberg ? In one hand, some news seem to vindicate him and others seem to strengthen the HIV cause-proponents ? Yes. Notable silence.
Professor Duesberg’s new book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" has been very well received and is right up to date. It gains considerably in stature and credibility from the obvious vindication of his early research and conclusions. Definitely worth reading. John — "If somebody says you are antibody positive, just say, "Fine! That protects me against anything the virus can do to me." That would be my reaction." Prof. Duesberg to John Lauritsen, quoted in The AIDS War
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There seem to be a flurry of developments of news concerning the AIDS front, including the conference in Vancouver. Do we have an update and comments from Peter Duesberg ? In one hand, some news seem to vindicate him and others seem to strengthen the HIV cause-proponents ? Yes. Notable silence. Professor Duesberg’s new book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" has been very well received and is right up to date. It gains considerably in stature and credibility from the obvious vindication of his early research and conclusions. Definitely worth reading.
John, dearest dog… Do-wrong Duesberg’s book is a regurgitation of his mid-80’s mantra with squeals of conspiracy thrown-in. Who are you trying to kid? You think the identification of major co-factors and the proven benefits of attacking HIV add to this moron’s credibility? We want to hear this guy either recant his erroneous position or defend it in a timely fashion – a professional response is required from Duesberg. People are fed-up seeing him ignore the info which defeats his case. Attacking HIV makes people live longer.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There seem to be a flurry of developments of news concerning the AIDS front, including the conference in Vancouver. Do we have an update and comments from Peter Duesberg ? In one hand, some news seem to vindicate him and others seem to strengthen the HIV cause-proponents ? Yes. Notable silence. Professor Duesberg’s new book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" has been very well received and is right up to date. It gains considerably in stature and credibility from the obvious vindication of his early research and conclusions. Definitely worth reading. John — "If somebody says you are antibody positive, just say, "Fine! That protects me against anything the virus can do to me." That would be my reaction." Prof. Duesberg to John Lauritsen, quoted in The AIDS War
Very well received by whom? The protease data should put an end to the circular arguments. If HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, it seems to be a great target to attack to improve the health of AIDS victims. What has Peter Duesberg done other than add some academic credentials to intellectually dishonest arguements? Henry N Fox Chapel
There seem to be a flurry of developments of news concerning the AIDS front, including the conference in Vancouver. Do we have an update and comments from Peter Duesberg ? In one hand, some news seem to vindicate him and others seem to strengthen the HIV cause-proponents ? I would surely like to know the latest from both sides.
There seem to be a flurry of developments of news concerning the AIDS front, including the conference in Vancouver. Do we have an update and comments from Peter Duesberg ? In one hand, some news seem to vindicate him and others seem to strengthen the HIV cause-proponents ? I would surely like to know the latest from both sides.
Yes. Notable silence. Are there two sides any more? Duesberg must be feeling pretty stupid right now.