Question:

There’s some sort of accounting glitch that’s resulting in many people’s balances being doubled or in some cases tripled.  Supposedly they’re working on it, just a heads-up to email billing if this hit you. Apparently Live Help is telling people to email support.

At eBay? This was a story about Wal-Mart for charges made on March 31st. http://www.finextra.com/fullstory.asp?id=11578 jim menning

Response:

There’s some sort of accounting glitch that’s resulting in many people’s balances being doubled or in some cases tripled.  Supposedly they’re working on it, just a heads-up to email billing if this hit you. Apparently Live Help is telling people to email support. — "Be advised that although this is actually a live broadcast and is being sent out at this very moment, it is quite possible that it might arrive tomorrow, right now, or perhaps yesterday."

A friend’s bill was doubled to $700 the other day.  She was quite concerned but called (powerseller) and eBay told her it was a glitch, not worry about it.  I suggested she double check the amount automatically withdrawn from her account for her bill though ’cause who knows if the glitch will be fixed by then.  Mine is fine, I still owe the huge sum of $15.  :)  Annette – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s some sort of accounting glitch that’s resulting in many people’s balances being doubled or in some cases tripled.  Supposedly they’re working on it, just a heads-up to email billing if this hit you. Apparently Live Help is telling people to email support. — "Be advised that although this is actually a live broadcast and is being sent out at this very moment, it is quite possible that it might arrive tomorrow, right now, or perhaps yesterday."

Response:

Question:

What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  

For all the readers who still are capable and willing to think: Because the theory of evolution can explain the origin of species without any dubious supernatural cause. Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

There’s a "never" missing in his last sentence, of course. Surprising that someone who’s unable to calculate 12 – 9 correctly is even able to write. Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination.

3. a working brain (something that I-know-SHIT only knows from hearsay). By the way, of course he describes himself with #2. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind.

Such words from someone who worships the idol called "bible"… What a pity and how sad…

…that people like I-know-SHIT are allowed to walk around in public, spreading their nonsense to confuse everyone who tries to think about his babblings. UNWRITTEN RULES OF FUNDAMENTALISM 1. "I’m right and you are wrong". 2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are. 3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults. 4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological, or verbal, at all times as defensive 5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed into a corner in an argument 6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused. 7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of error and correction as part of God’s personal plan for you and not as a something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except verbally and secretly to God himself 8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God’s plans for the world.  Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for the betterment of mankind. 9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it. 10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and oppose all such information through classification of such information in a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing propaganda) 11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is complex and there are shades of grey 12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don’t have that right anyhow. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —       Recte Faciendo Neminem Timeas Is it opinion?  Is it fact?  Is it truth?

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution? What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?

What an idiotic question Nobody "puts faith" in evolution It is merely a thoroughly proved scientific discovery

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution?

Because of the overwhelming, undeniable evidence. What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?

Evolution requires no faith, just like gravity requires no faith.  Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

What was the order of creation again? Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible.

Not true as many Christians accept evolution. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination.

This applies to creationists. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind.

Which is what the creationists are missing out on despite thinking that they are involved. What a pity and how sad…

Say no more. – Wayne

Response:

In alt.talk.creationism, the mindless enemy of Christianity known as Why Does One Believe in Evolution? What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

Once again, parading as a Christian to make fools of Christians, we get dishonest rhetorical questions, and: Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind. What a pity and how sad…

Fraudulent answers. No one could possibly believe you are a Christian based on your behavior.

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution?

Scientists don’t "believe in" evolution.  They accept it as the best theory they have for the diversification of living organisms. What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  Is it

I know of few people who put "faith" in evolution.  Oh, biologists and even lay people who understand the science expect evolution to occur, in exactly the same manner that physicists expect gravity to operate. easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

Very little science was ever accomplished by bibliolaters.  In fact, none of the really important scientific breakthroughs came from perusing books.  Eratosthenes discovered that the world was round by looking at eclipses and by noting the height of the sun at noon in different places.   Newton discovered the principle of universal gravitation by noticing something everyone took for granted–that things fall toward the center of the earth as if something is pulling them there. Only two reasons seem understandable:

To you, but your understanding is deformed by YECS. 1. A hatred of God and His Bible.

I suppose someone who hated God would take up Satanism but would read the Bible avidly in order to find out the enemy’s secrets.  More likely it’s people who don’t care about YOUR silly religious opinions that you’re on about.  Well science doesn’t care about anybody’s religious opinions.   Not your silly ones and not my wise ones. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination.

The only serious lack of knowledge and strong indoctrination I’ve seen are on the creationist side.  They are the ones lying all the time.  They are the ones who continually use deceptive sophistry and try to pass it off as logic.  They are the ones bearing false witness in God’s name.   Perhaps they hate God and wish to distract the attention of onlookers from the fact that they don’t wish to obey His commandments by focusing on a totally reified literalist interpretation of Genesis and insisting that it must be accepted for salvation. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind.

I think it’s SIN that keeps people away from a loving and personal relationship with God.  And unrepented, it stands always in the way, like the angel with the flaming sword, keeping you from the very source of life itself. What a pity and how sad…

You said it! — Dave Oldridge ICQ 1800667 Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution? What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?

I only believe in facts and your religion is not a fact. Or is it? Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

The word of God is a belief, not a fact and it is full of contradictions and false prophecies, like that false prophecy by Jesus that he would rise from the grave after three days and three nights but then the Bible tells us he rose from the grave after only three days and two nights. Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination.

What a pity and how sad those were the only two reasons you were able to understand or even think of. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind. What a pity and how sad…

What is pitiful or sad about it since they don’t miss anything in their normal day-to-day relationships without that mental delusion of being able to talk to a God? The Sage My Home Page      :           http://members.cox.net/the.sage "Little minds are interested in the extraordinary; great minds in the commonplace"   — Elbert Hubbard, ROYCROFT DICTIONARY AND BOOK OF EPIGRAMS

Response:

The only serious lack of knowledge and strong indoctrination I’ve seen are on the creationist side.  They are the ones lying all the time.  They are the ones who continually use deceptive sophistry and try to pass it off as logic.  They are the ones bearing false witness in God’s name.   Perhaps they hate God and wish to distract the attention of onlookers from the fact that they don’t wish to obey His commandments by focusing on a totally reified literalist interpretation of Genesis and insisting that it must be accepted for salvation.

David Oldridge has put his finger on what bothers me the most about postings from the radical loud YEC like this one. 1-their polarization between their particular literalistic interpretations of Gen and the scientific community cause a LOT of YEC kids to desert their faith when they encounter the real strength of the arguments for an old earth and for evolutionary theory at university. Since the YEC have effectively dismissed all the Christian alternatives between YEC and the atheistic, there are no stopping points down the slippery slope to unbelief. for you are guilty with your false polarization of causing that brother to stumble in his faith. you put up a false barrier that leads him to unbelief. This is condemned strongly in Matt, among other places. 2-as is pointed out you are a liar about the good creation that God has given to us. liars have no place in the kingdom of God. 3-there are those that say they belong to God, yet in the last days, God sends them to hell for He knew them not, i propose that you think about the brethren here that answer your ill conceived postings. And take this as a warning that you are wrong, deadly wrong. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution? What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years? Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind. What a pity and how sad… —       Recte Faciendo Neminem Timeas Is it opinion?  Is it fact?  Is it truth?

Response:

"YM1: Why Does One Believe in Evolution? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years? Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind. What a pity and how sad… —       Recte Faciendo Neminem Timeas Is it opinion?  Is it fact?  Is it truth?

Tom: What a moronic post. You are totally clueless, aren’t you, YM1?

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution?

Sorry, once again and I guess this will have to be repeated for as many times as guys like keep making this assertion, evolution is not something to be believed in. You should not believe in evolution any more than you believe in electrons. Science simply does not use God because it is an inoperable hypothesis. For that matter, accounting doesn’t use God either, although I bet a lot of prayers are offered at tax time to balance the books. Why don’t you go after those atheistic tax accountants and rip a strip off of them? What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?

Who puts their faith in evolution? Stand up and be counted. I, for one, don’t have any "faith" in evolution. Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

Again, and again, and again. Just because you see everything in a religious framework does not mean that everybody else does. Evolution is not a religion and you guys have been frequently challenged to demonstrate how you think this is so. You’ve never risen to this challenge, in fact you especially, never return to any challenge issued in your posts. Only two reasons seem understandable:

Understandable to you in your limited world view, yes. 1. A hatred of God and His Bible.

I feel no such emotion or animosity. Sorry. Does that not quite fit in with your logic? 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination.

I have two degrees and have been teaching high school biology for 23 years with continual upgrades and summer institutes to refine my practice. I have also circumnavigated the world, lived abroad, and shared with others in churches and temples everywhere. I’d be very interested to have you explain how you think I was indoctrinated after all that. Care to try? Didn’t think so. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind.

Hmmph. I think your spirituality is embryonic. You quite your search too soon. You haven’t gone far enough yet. You sold out. What a pity and how sad…

You’re sad alright. However, if your limited enlightenment keeps you out of mischief then please, continue. In fact, if I thought it would help, I’d help you build more churches. I’d still rather you spew your lies and nonsense in a news group than have any real effect in the real world, which of course, you don’t. —       Recte Faciendo Neminem Timeas Is it opinion?  Is it fact?  Is it truth?

It’s a rant without foundation. Try to demonstrate otherwise.

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution?

Because it is a fact. What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  

I put my faith in reality. Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition….

In your case, yes Elmer Bataitis        "Hot dog! Smooch city here I come!" Planetech Services                              -Hobbes 585-442-2884   "Proudly wearing and displaying, as a badge of honor,         the straight jacket of conventional thought." – C. Cagle                      

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution?

What is the reason that a fundamental protestant continues to post science-related topics in a Catholic newsgroup?  At least try to make the topic *touch* on Catholicism.  For example: "Why does a Catholic believe in Evolution?  Is it because the Church has said that it doesn’t contradict the Bible or Church teachings?" Alberich

Response:

YM1 (AKA IKnowNothingButLikeToPretendIDoSoICanPretendToHaveMoralHighGround) ranted Why Does One Believe in Evolution?

JERRY Perhaps because it meets the same scientific method as does your computer, your car, your television and the nuclear power that heats your home? YM1 What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  

JERRY Because it’s supported by the evidence.  Why does one put their faith in a 2000 year old book of goatherder mythology?  Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept what can be proven, such as in science? YM1 Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

JERRY Let’s compare: Scientific method that has worked on the aforementioned inventions or a book of mythology that fails tests of consistency, history and prophecy? Gee, it’s pretty simple.  Accept the scientifically supported conclusions and ignore the bleatings of the goats that are proven wrong time after time after time after…. (you get the idea) YM1 Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible.

JERRY We’ve already addressed this:  how can I hate what I don’t believe exists?  Do you believe in the Easter Bunny, YM?  NO?  Then you *obviously* must HATE the Easter Bunny, is that correct?  That’s the same thing you are trying to say here. YM1 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination.

JERRY Hmmm, you believe that the 2LoT invalidates evolution, showing you don’t have even a basic understanding of science. You believe that Abraham Lincolm was one of the Founding Fathers and that this nation was founded as a Christian Nation, showing you don’t have even a basic understanding of history. You believe the bible to be historically and literally true when geology, paleontology, archaeology, Egyptology and history all demonstrate that it’s not. Seems like the one with the serious lack of knowledge is the one pushing superstition here, YM. You are also the one who has run from repeated debates as soon as it’s clear that you don’t know what you are talking about.  Yep, you are certainly someone that should be preaching in newsgroups.  EVERYONE is jumping to listen to you. YM1 Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind.

JERRY Either way, a person can choose between following the likes of YM1 or of making their own decision on their life and choosing to live without superstition. YM1 What a pity and how sad…

JERRY Yes, but we hope that if you keep posting it will show those on the fence how foolish clinging to that superstition is, YM.  You just keep posting.  You are the poster child for stupid religions.

Response:

Why Does One Believe in Evolution? What is the reason a person puts their faith in evolution?  Is it easier to believe in an unsubstantiated supposition than to accept the written word of God:  a writing that has stood the test of time, practice and science for thousands of years?

Gee, more lies from IKHDY. Why am I not surprized? Only two reasons seem understandable: 1. A hatred of God and His Bible.

Except for the fact that many evolutionary biologists are Christians. So, you are wrong here. 2. A serious lack of knowledge coupled with strong indoctrination.

No, that would describe you, not the scientists. Let me add reason 3, which is the correct one. 3. A serious study of the evidence for creationism and evolution, which shows that creationism  is a load of hooey, and evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life seen on Earth. Either one will keep the person away from a loving and personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of all mankind.

No, your continuous lying posts do that better than science ever could. What a pity and how sad…

Yes, you are. — Dave Fritzinger

Response:

Question:

*huggles to Geri and Brian* i know exactly how you’re feeling-his first wife did Exactly the same thing once, and i was in a snit for a couple of days…..all i can offer is encouragement-you’re doing the best you can with something that’s very difficult, and i know that there’s likely some anticipation that it’s gonna get worse before it gets better….all i can say is that from what i see, ya’ll are doing good….just keep on doing what you’re doing, and i’ll loan you my cheerful doggiebaby if you need to scream at something that won’t care….;) prayers, Jess "Conspicuous" <listmas…@internetfortherestofus.com> wrote in message

news:de88e665.0304291908.7cc42c89@posting.google.com… > gplen…@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian) wrote in message

<news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > We went in to court today, which was supposed to be the custody hearing date, > > to request a continuance until summer.  We had already *agreed* with BM on this > > continuance, based on the need for the court evaluator to have more time, and > > also based on that we still have part of our fee to pay (since we are currently > > a one income (mine) family – unlike Kitten, since the first of the year, our > > income has decreased 25%).  Also, after five months of not requesting it > > (unlike Bozo, who would undoubtedly have left skid marks to the courthouse the > > first day of her unemployment), Brian filed for child support, the hearing date > > set for June.  We kind of anticipated having both hearings changed to the same > > date, probably in July. > Hi Geri, > Yikes. You’re making me feel so….lucky! I hope the monster gets > what she deserves…well, I guess she did! She got a LAWYER! Snerk, > snerk. > Have a better tomorrow. > Irene

Response:

> We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was all > cordial.  Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the households > for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way.  Like why > bother.  Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain.

I know exactly what you mean.  We’ve been on that roller coaster for years. We’ll have seemingly rational and cordial interactions with BM, and then she’ll do something crazy again.  Every time we think we’re prepared, but we’re not.  The only thing we can know is that we can’t know.  ;-O  I feel for you, Brian and SD.  At least you have time now until the next court date, right? Jennifer

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>At least you have time now until the next court >date, right?

Right, a couple of months.  We will have to see what happens next.  (sigh) ~~Geri~~

Response:

"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com… > This is kind of funny, because Brian is not nearly as chapped about this > attorney thing as I am.  I guess I am pissed because this is the first time BM > has ever completely blind-sided us with anything – we have usually be able to > predict pretty accurately what evil she will do next.  Also, it seems a little > stinky to me that for someone who is too poor to pay for anything, all of a > sudden she can come up with the money for an attorney – probably to try to > fight her paying child support, but especially to represent her on an issue we > had already talked with her about  and agreed on.

Geri – Did you guys blind-side her with the request for CS?  If the court date was just to take care of what you guys had already agreed upon and no request for CS was involved do you think maybe she would not have hired a lawyer then? ~August

Response:

>and used to the idea that the >attorney is going to do his best to bog you guys down in paper work and >motions.  It’s what she’s paying him to do.

Melissa!  That is *not* what she’s paying him to do. jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Love, >Melissa

Response:

>Did you guys blind-side her with the request for CS?  If the court date was >just to take care of what you guys had already agreed upon and no request >for CS was involved do you think maybe she would not have hired a lawyer >then?

There was a different court date for the CS.  The request for CS could not have been a real big surprise, because we told her back when Brian lost his job that we might have to ask for it.  I suspect that getting the attorney might be about the child support request, but she is going to end up paying him more (in fact, probably already has) than she would have had to pay us for a few months of child support.  That makes no sense to me.  Also, unless the (illegal) gender card is played, there is no way she should not have to pay it, since Brian is not purposefully remaining unemployed, so hiring an attorney is not going to prevent this.  I guess that is part of my frustration – I can’t imagine what she is thinking. ~~Geri~~

Response:

gplen…@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian) wrote in message <news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com>… > We went in to court today, which was supposed to be the custody hearing date, > to request a continuance until summer.  We had already *agreed* with BM on this > continuance, based on the need for the court evaluator to have more time, and > also based on that we still have part of our fee to pay (since we are currently > a one income (mine) family – unlike Kitten, since the first of the year, our > income has decreased 25%).  Also, after five months of not requesting it > (unlike Bozo, who would undoubtedly have left skid marks to the courthouse the > first day of her unemployment), Brian filed for child support, the hearing date > set for June.  We kind of anticipated having both hearings changed to the same > date, probably in July.

Hi Geri, Yikes. You’re making me feel so….lucky! I hope the monster gets what she deserves…well, I guess she did! She got a LAWYER! Snerk, snerk. Have a better tomorrow. Irene

Response:

>Big hugs to both you and Brian.  

Thanks!  :-) ~~Geri~~

Response:

"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429202818.21194.00000335@mb-m15.aol.com… > That being said, if BM would get custody, we would be freed up in a lot of > ways.  We could move where we please (if we were paying substantial CS, we > would have to leave here in order to make ends meet) and move on with our > lives.  SD could come and stay with us for the summer.  We could be fairly free > of BM most of the time.  I think this would wreak havoc on SD’s life, but at > least everyone could move on and get used to it instead of this waiting to see > how it is all going to turn out for years.

Geri I SO hear you ;( There are days I think about all the things we could have done had we not had BM to deal with on a constant basis. I absolutly cannot STAND living in the midwest and have been dying to move south (away from cold winters) for what seems like forever. OTOH though I am also very aware of how much of a vindictive *really bad "C" word* BM is and know that she would take us to the cleaners in CS payments if she had custody. I love my daughter and would never give her up for the world but it would be so nice to be free of all the crap we deal with because of BM. But then again, it’s all worth it in the end because I got such a great kid out of the deal *VBG* Jen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ~~Geri~~

Response:

>As I was watching all of this today, the temptation to convince Brian to bug >out of this whole deal and just write checks was running high.  But then the >thought of abandoning SD (who cried and cried last week one night when I left >for work (and didn’t know she was still awake) because I forgot to kiss her >and >say good-bye before I left – he had to get me out of report to talk to her) >to >an incompetant mother just rips my heart out. >That is all. >~~Geri~~

Big hugs to both you and Brian.   "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

>Didn’t your husband and mine get laid off on the same day or something?  DH >had a lot of "overqualified" feedback too

It has been since December for us, though technically, Brian was paid through the end of the month so real unemployment didn’t start until January. Brian is in a funny industry.  He is an accountant, but his "specialty" is real estate management so he isn’t going to get even considered for something like tax or cost accounting.  His industry is pretty volatile, too, based not only on real estate, but retail.  We (he and I) kind of have the same deal.  People always say to me, "Oh, you are a nurse, you can work anywhere."  Not really, because I have ever only worked with kids, moms and babies.  I have never done adult nursing since nursing school (nor do I want to), so I am not really marketable as, for example, an ER nurse or critical care nurse (where the big bucks, high stress jobs are). >It’s a tough job market right now, and we are >fortunate in that the unemployment in this state is not as high as many >others.  How’s California?

I think we are about a percent higher than the national rate, IIRC.  Brian is, besides doing his own searching, also going through a bunch of headhunters. ~~Geri~~

Response:

>Part of you is probably feeling, >"She got an attorney, there’s going to be some weird thing up her >sleeve or she’s going to try to blindside us with some legal thing."

That is exactly it.  I worked for lawyers that did family law for a few years and I have seen firsthand the tricky stuff they can do.  When I saw this lawyer, one of my initial thoughts was "attorney=tricky stuff up her sleeve". >The little smirks and the unexpected attorneys are just >reminders of the fact that this is never going to go away, and it’s >going to be 10 more years before Lauren is 18.

Ugh, ugh, ugh. ~~Geri~~

Response:

"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429210115.13060.00000451@mb-m10.aol.com… > That is exactly it.  I worked for lawyers that did family law for a few years > and I have seen firsthand the tricky stuff they can do.  When I saw this > lawyer, one of my initial thoughts was "attorney=tricky stuff up her sleeve".

Do you think that she might be feeling threatened by the possibility that you may win, hence the necessity for getting an attorney? What do you expect at the continued date? Karen

Response:

"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429202818.21194.00000335@mb-m15.aol.com… > That being said, if BM would get custody, we would be freed up in a lot of > ways.  We could move where we please (if we were paying substantial CS, we > would have to leave here in order to make ends meet) and move on with our > lives.  SD could come and stay with us for the summer.  We could be fairly free > of BM most of the time.  I think this would wreak havoc on SD’s life, but at > least everyone could move on and get used to it instead of this waiting to see > how it is all going to turn out for years.

Geri, I totally understand how you feel and you have my sympathy. It’s a tough spot to be in where you are now. Being at the point of wanting to stay and fight to the end for SD but also wanting to cut your losses and walk away and be done with the fighting and hassles and get on with life. I wish you and Brian well and I hope it all turns out the way you want it too. Mika

Response:

>Do you think that she might be feeling threatened by the possibility that >you may win, hence the necessity for getting an attorney?

It is possible. >What do you expect at the continued date?

The court evaluation should be completed, the school/custody issues decided and the child support thing will be heard and decided on.  This happens in July. (Thank God I am going home in August for the first football game of the season and to see my family.  I wish I could go for a few days now, as my sister is home from Ireland for a week.) ~~Geri~~

Response:

>Being at the point of wanting to stay >and fight to the end for SD but also wanting to cut your losses and walk >away and be done with the fighting and hassles and get on with life. I wish >you and Brian well and I hope it all turns out the way you want it too.

Thanks.  Well, we have until July.  Who knows what will happen before then (except that I will turn 45). ~~Geri~~

Response:

"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com… > We are presuming that he will > be working by then (he has been First Runner Up on several jobs he has applied > for, but never makes it to Miss America), although today a potential employer > called and cancelled an interview because he is overqualified. > ~~Geri~~

Geri, Didn’t your husband and mine get laid off on the same day or something?  DH had a lot of "overqualified" feedback too.  He finally made revisions to his resume that removed references to length of experience.  Also, we learned that most larger companies have the submitted resumes "read" by computers to check number of keywords. If the right keywards are not in there it doesn’t even get to an HR rep.  It’s a tough job market right now, and we are fortunate in that the unemployment in this state is not as high as many others.  How’s California? Karen

Response:

>Weren’t you kind of expecting this though?

Not at all.  BM is the poorest person in the world. >Can you get an attorney as well?

Not really.  To be honest, I am kind of tired of all of this battling and there is a limit to what I will finance with my working alone (as in I am not going to kill myself working overtime for it) – this court evaluation and an attorney are Brian’s responsibility, really.   >Seems like a standard thing to ask in regards to custody and support.  I >wouldn’t take it personally.  My guess is that it won’t come up again once >Brian has turned over the information.

It probably is.  Brian isn’t offended by it.  This is totally a me thing, and like I said probably unreasonable.  I feel like I have done a lot to smooth things between the households just by handling them myself in a cordial way with BM.  She even thanked me for covering her butt last week when her sister’s child spilled the beans to SD about the Easter Bunny – I think I bought us at least a year or so.  We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was all cordial.  Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the households for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way.  Like why bother.  Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain. >There’s >no use letting it get to you.  That’s what she wants.

I know.  I just hate that nyah-nyah she was exuding at us.  I can just imagine what she would be like if she actually would get majority custody.  I would have to move into Scott Peterson’s cell, I fear. ~~Geri~~

Response:

(snip) >In CA, is your income figured into the whole equation?  

Not at all.  There is a formula (supposedly non-gender biased) that plugs in the percent of custody of both parents and the income of both parents and spits out a number and that is the amount of child support. BM has refused to even provide her financial information to us for two years (technically she is in contempt, but we have not pursued it).  If she makes substantially more money than Brian, according to this formula, she should be paying.  We are not hurting financially (at this point) as far as living expenses because of my income – SD is not even aware of any real differences in lifestyle, and that was why we originally waited to request CS for so long, to help kee the animosity level down.  OTOH, BM is still nickel and diming us on things like medication co-pays and things like that, even though she knew we could request CS, and that we never bothered to even ask her for when both of us were working. ~~Geri~~

Response:

>Not really.  To be honest, I am kind of tired of all of this battling and >there >is a limit to what I will finance with my working alone (as in I am not going >to kill myself working overtime for it) – this court evaluation and an >attorney >are Brian’s responsibility, really.  

Limit setting is a great thing.   >It probably is.  Brian isn’t offended by it.  This is totally a me thing, and >like I said probably unreasonable.  I feel like I have done a lot to smooth >things between the households just by handling them myself in a cordial way >with BM.  She even thanked me for covering her butt last week when her >sister’s >child spilled the beans to SD about the Easter Bunny – I think I bought us at >least a year or so.  We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was >all >cordial.  Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the >households >for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way.  Like why >bother.  Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain.

Actually I think you’re right in that BM having an attorney might really help eliminate some her more stupid motions and outbursts.  Our BM’s attorney used to kick BM hard under the table when she’d start ranting at meetings and the hearing.   >I know.  I just hate that nyah-nyah she was exuding at us.  I can just >imagine >what she would be like if she actually would get majority custody.  I would >have to move into Scott Peterson’s cell, I fear.

My advice would be to prepare yourself for the possibility that she will, maybe even assume that she will.  Preparing for the worst may make whatever the judge comes up with not seem so bad. Love, Melissa A good friend will come bail you out of jail… but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn we F#*%d up!"

Response:

>My advice would be to prepare yourself for the possibility that she will, >maybe >even assume that she will.  Preparing for the worst may make whatever the >judge >comes up with not seem so bad.

We have talked about it.  My focus would be to see positives on both sides of the coin.  We think SD has the greatest chance of "stabilizing" for want of a better word, if we have majority custody. She is still demonstrating better school behavior on our custody time, even at Stalag 13.  I think her mom’s lifestyle is a life of chaos and drama and I don’t think it would be good for SD to live their for the majority of her life. That being said, if BM would get custody, we would be freed up in a lot of ways.  We could move where we please (if we were paying substantial CS, we would have to leave here in order to make ends meet) and move on with our lives.  SD could come and stay with us for the summer.  We could be fairly free of BM most of the time.  I think this would wreak havoc on SD’s life, but at least everyone could move on and get used to it instead of this waiting to see how it is all going to turn out for years. ~~Geri~~

Response:

On 30 Apr 2003 00:07:27 GMT, gplen…@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian) wrote: >It probably is.  Brian isn’t offended by it.  This is totally a me thing, and >like I said probably unreasonable.  I feel like I have done a lot to smooth >things between the households just by handling them myself in a cordial way >with BM.  She even thanked me for covering her butt last week when her sister’s >child spilled the beans to SD about the Easter Bunny – I think I bought us at >least a year or so.  We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was all >cordial.  Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the households >for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way.  Like why >bother.  Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain.

You know Geri, with our BM, whenever something unexpected happens, even if it’s something that people can put a normal or happy spin on, I’m always dreading the other shoe. Part of you is probably feeling, "She got an attorney, there’s going to be some weird thing up her sleeve or she’s going to try to blindside us with some legal thing." And you really do just get sick of it, all the fighting, all the bullshit. The little smirks and the unexpected attorneys are just reminders of the fact that this is never going to go away, and it’s going to be 10 more years before Lauren is 18. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>There’s >>no use letting it get to you.  That’s what she wants. >I know.  I just hate that nyah-nyah she was exuding at us.  I can just imagine >what she would be like if she actually would get majority custody.  I would >have to move into Scott Peterson’s cell, I fear. >~~Geri~~

Response:

>and we are given >the notice that she now has an attorney.  (Both Brian and BM have not used >attorneys for a couple of years now.)  This is the same (vile) creature who >has >said in her zillions of court documents 98,789,954 times that she doesn’t >have >enough money to pay for this or that for SD (including her half of the court >evaluation – which she seems to have dug up somewhere).

Weren’t you kind of expecting this though?  I can’t imagine not having a lawyer for something as big as a custody evaluation.  Can you get an attorney as well?  I know with finances that’s going to be tough.  Our court thing happend when SO was laid off and damn was it expensive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->So, when it is our turn, he proceeds to go up and speak to the judge first, >ask >for the continuance, move that the dates be joined – all which we expected >and >planned on (now costing BM probably fifteen hundred bucks to do so).  Then he >proceeds to move that Brian has to provide documentation of the number of >contacts and interviews (he wanted to have a set number, but the judge didn’t >allow that) and with whom that Brian has done.  He made it sound like Brian >is >some deadbeat who isn’t looking for a job and delaying the custody evaluation >on purpose.  Fortunately we can prove otherwise, but the implication was just >insulting.  Anyway, so now Brian has to do that.  We are presuming that he >will >be working by then (he has been First Runner Up on several jobs he has >applied >for, but never makes it to Miss America), although today a potential employer >called and cancelled an interview because he is overqualified.

Seems like a standard thing to ask in regards to custody and support.  I wouldn’t take it personally.  My guess is that it won’t come up again once Brian has turned over the information. >The other thing that really irritated me was that we were sitting behind her >and she kept turning around to smirk at us.  Really, I wanted to just snatch >her bald, slap her into next week and be done with it.

Can you let this crap go?  If BM wants to act childish then let her.  There’s no use letting it get to you.  That’s what she wants. > We have >been tossing around the idea, every time BM calls here about some stupid >thing, >to let her talk to the machine, answer her in writing, and copy it to her >attorney (and thus costing her some legal fees).

That makes good sense to do right before a big court thing anyway. >I know this is unreasonable, but that past few months, dealing with BM, have >been relatively painless – I just handle it all, which keeps things short and >sweet and Brian’s blood pressure down – so in a way this feels like a >back-stabbing (well, what a surprise, I guess) from her.  

I’m not sure I understand that at all.  Attorneys and court kind of go together don’t they?  How is it backstabbing? >The very bottom line is that I don’t see how any of this is good for SD.  The >acrimony is at a new high, money that could be supporting her is going to an >attorney, and all of this because BM wants to fight so hard to keep SD in a >crummy school where her behavior scores have decreased 20% in the four months >she has been in school there, she is learning to talk like a sailor from the >older criminals-in-waiting at that place, her only friend is an autistic >five-year old (who we had to stop her from aping), her academics have >decreased >(the one day she brought home some work from school, it was of the level she >had been doing easily in first grade), she has to ride two hours in a van to >get to and from the place, her doctors all disagree with her being there, and >the school refused to communicate with us about any of these concerns!  

You’re right.  None of this is good for SD, or the adults involved.  It’s all about choosing your battles.  Is this one worth it?  If it is then I think you need to get used to BM having an attorney, and used to the idea that the attorney is going to do his best to bog you guys down in paper work and motions.  It’s what she’s paying him to do. I feel for everyone though.  Going to court is a horrible process, and it always seems like no one seems happy with the outcome. Love, Melissa A good friend will come bail you out of jail… but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn we F#*%d up!"

Response:

We went in to court today, which was supposed to be the custody hearing date, to request a continuance until summer.  We had already *agreed* with BM on this continuance, based on the need for the court evaluator to have more time, and also based on that we still have part of our fee to pay (since we are currently a one income (mine) family – unlike Kitten, since the first of the year, our income has decreased 25%).  Also, after five months of not requesting it (unlike Bozo, who would undoubtedly have left skid marks to the courthouse the first day of her unemployment), Brian filed for child support, the hearing date set for June.  We kind of anticipated having both hearings changed to the same date, probably in July. So, we went into court today and there is Bozo (in the SAME dress she always wears – this must be her lucky dress that she never washes) and we are given the notice that she now has an attorney.  (Both Brian and BM have not used attorneys for a couple of years now.)  This is the same (vile) creature who has said in her zillions of court documents 98,789,954 times that she doesn’t have enough money to pay for this or that for SD (including her half of the court evaluation – which she seems to have dug up somewhere). So, when it is our turn, he proceeds to go up and speak to the judge first, ask for the continuance, move that the dates be joined – all which we expected and planned on (now costing BM probably fifteen hundred bucks to do so).  Then he proceeds to move that Brian has to provide documentation of the number of contacts and interviews (he wanted to have a set number, but the judge didn’t allow that) and with whom that Brian has done.  He made it sound like Brian is some deadbeat who isn’t looking for a job and delaying the custody evaluation on purpose.  Fortunately we can prove otherwise, but the implication was just insulting.  Anyway, so now Brian has to do that.  We are presuming that he will be working by then (he has been First Runner Up on several jobs he has applied for, but never makes it to Miss America), although today a potential employer called and cancelled an interview because he is overqualified. This is kind of funny, because Brian is not nearly as chapped about this attorney thing as I am.  I guess I am pissed because this is the first time BM has ever completely blind-sided us with anything – we have usually be able to predict pretty accurately what evil she will do next.  Also, it seems a little stinky to me that for someone who is too poor to pay for anything, all of a sudden she can come up with the money for an attorney – probably to try to fight her paying child support, but especially to represent her on an issue we had already talked with her about  and agreed on. The other thing that really irritated me was that we were sitting behind her and she kept turning around to smirk at us.  Really, I wanted to just snatch her bald, slap her into next week and be done with it. I see there possibly can be some good sides to this – such as if the court can also make the connection about her having the money to pay an attorney, but being too broke for anything else.  Also, presumably she will no longer be filing all of this dopey, frivolous crap based on no evidence, dragging us into court.  We have seen this judge be fairly lenient with people who represent themselves, so we may be able to get away with more than a person whose job it is to professionally appear in a courtroom.  He is going to have to file documents on time, etc., and actually serve us with the things sooner than five minutes before court starts.  (Actually, we have not been properly served with any of the court orders since 2000.) I am not sure, since Brian represents himself, if he is obligated (or allowed) to communicate with the attorney or with BM through the attorney now.  The last time we used attorneys, both sides had them (not an option for us), so we are not sure what the protocol is.  The level of adversarial-ness and hostility of this whole thing has elevated about 3000%, as far as we are concerned.  We have been tossing around the idea, every time BM calls here about some stupid thing, to let her talk to the machine, answer her in writing, and copy it to her attorney (and thus costing her some legal fees). I know this is unreasonable, but that past few months, dealing with BM, have been relatively painless – I just handle it all, which keeps things short and sweet and Brian’s blood pressure down – so in a way this feels like a back-stabbing (well, what a surprise, I guess) from her.   The very bottom line is that I don’t see how any of this is good for SD.  The acrimony is at a new high, money that could be supporting her is going to an attorney, and all of this because BM wants to fight so hard to keep SD in a crummy school where her behavior scores have decreased 20% in the four months she has been in school there, she is learning to talk like a sailor from the older criminals-in-waiting at that place, her only friend is an autistic five-year old (who we had to stop her from aping), her academics have decreased (the one day she brought home some work from school, it was of the level she had been doing easily in first grade), she has to ride two hours in a van to get to and from the place, her doctors all disagree with her being there, and the school refused to communicate with us about any of these concerns!   As I was watching all of this today, the temptation to convince Brian to bug out of this whole deal and just write checks was running high.  But then the thought of abandoning SD (who cried and cried last week one night when I left for work (and didn’t know she was still awake) because I forgot to kiss her and say good-bye before I left – he had to get me out of report to talk to her) to an incompetant mother just rips my heart out. That is all. ~~Geri~~

Response:

Geri wrote: > As I was watching all of this today, the temptation to convince Brian to

bug out of this whole deal and just write checks was running high.  But then the thought of abandoning SD (who cried and cried last week one night when I left for work (and didn’t know she was still awake) because I forgot to kiss her and say good-bye before I left – he had to get me out of report to talk to her) to an incompetant mother just rips my heart out. Sorry things aren’t working out the way you guys had hoped — that truly sucks. Really, though, I don’t understand why you’re upset about her hiring the lawyer.  I realize that you guys aren’t in the position to hire one right now (though if you needed to, you probably could find one that would work with you), but if she can afford one, what is the big deal? Why is it that Brian feels the need to go for CS now?  Given that you guys have that whole 50/50 arrangement, it doesn’t seem fair that BM should have to pay CS b/c her situation is presumably improved over yours right now — though I suppose that the argument would be that Brian is the unemployed parent and you are the spouse of the parent.  That doesn’t quite gel, however, with the whole "equal" partner thing when it comes to SD’s needs and decision making power…… In CA, is your income figured into the whole equation?  I’m just curious — NOT that I believe that it should be figured into it — b/c I thought that CA was one of the states that figured "household income" rather than parental income. Just thinking aloud….. — Didi Mother of 4, Step-mother of 1 "Children, perfection, and sanity.  You can only have 2 out of 3." Anonymous

Response:

Question:

i am comaring htese solutions for my business. can anyone lead me to sources? thanks

Response:

Mas 90 is a mid range accounting package.  Would normally place it below such packages as Great Plains, ACCPAC PRO, and Solomon. It was really horrible in the mid 90’s but it seems to be improving a lot. Bill Couture

Response:

Go with the MAS 90. I sell and implement Great Plains and MAS 90/200. MAS 90 good support and does distribution very well. Great Plains has better core accounting. MAS 90 has alot of third-party applications available and is easier to customize. GP has all the business logic in one file. It all depends on your needs. I wouldn’t go with any other software, they’ll be going the way of the dinosaur. Best software is buying up other accounting softwares to get at there custoomer database. Ie Peachtree and Platinum. And GP is backed by Microsoft.MAS 90 and GP are the only real players in the market.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am comaring htese solutions for my business. can anyone lead me to sources? thanks

Response:

Wouldn’t consider MAS 90 to be able to hold a candle to ACCPAC PRO.  It is certainly the best mid range package in the market. Great Plains has been an also ran to ACCPAC PRO for years. No packages are more flexible or user friendly then the ACCPAC source series. As to Microsoft backing.  Without ACCPAC pro’s 500,000 plus users VFP would probably be gone. Bill Couture

Response:

Question:

Which accounting software package do rapidly growing small companies choose to replace QuickBooks Pro after exceeding the 14,500 name limit of employees, customers, vendors and other names? Intuit’s recommendation to start another company is unacceptable for at least two reasons: (1)  convenient, seamless access to historical data is very important; (2)  with continued growth, the QuickBooks name limit will be reached again. — Tom

Response:

I know many on this board will shoot me for plugging Microsoft (even though this is really a MS acquisition and not a core business), but in many accounting courses today we use software from Great Plains.  Seems to me to be very easy to use. — Todd Stephens

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which accounting software package do rapidly growing small companies choose to replace QuickBooks Pro after exceeding the 14,500 name limit of employees, customers, vendors and other names? Intuit’s recommendation to start another company is unacceptable for at least two reasons: (1)  convenient, seamless access to historical data is very important; (2)  with continued growth, the QuickBooks name limit will be reached again. — Tom

Response:

I’m a firm believer in Accpac. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which accounting software package do rapidly growing small companies choose to replace QuickBooks Pro after exceeding the 14,500 name limit of employees, customers, vendors and other names? Intuit’s recommendation to start another company is unacceptable for at least two reasons: (1)  convenient, seamless access to historical data is very important; (2)  with continued growth, the QuickBooks name limit will be reached again. — Tom

Response:

Question:

 Actually, not all of them charge for drinks.  CO’s Presidents Club  doesn’t. When I used to use CO they did charge at EWR, perhaps they have changed.

  The P Club at EWR (the one near gate 110) didn’t charge me for drinks   this past Sunday.  Maybe they used to, but not for the past couple of   years.  Anyhow, it’s true that overseas clubs are probably a much   better value.

Response:

One of the great minuses of the US carriers. Charge for membership and then charge for drinks in the lounges.   Actually, not all of them charge for drinks.  CO’s Presidents Club   doesn’t.

     Nor does Delta’s (well at least as of late July).

Response:

The last thing the airlines need is a reason for a good customer to no longer fly with them.   The airlines may need to cut cost.  But having a frequent flyer program may mean the difference between an airline with a future and bankruptcy! They need the programs now more than ever. The Gyppo Man

Response:

The last thing the airlines need is a reason for a good customer to no longer fly with them. The airlines may need to cut cost.  But having a frequent flyer program may mean the difference between an airline with a future and bankruptcy! They need the programs now more than ever.

Why if none of them have a FF program.

Response:

One of the great minuses of the US carriers. Charge for membership and then charge for drinks in the lounges.

  Actually, not all of them charge for drinks.  CO’s Presidents Club   doesn’t.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of the great minuses of the US carriers. Charge for membership and then charge for drinks in the lounges.   Actually, not all of them charge for drinks.  CO’s Presidents Club   doesn’t. NW WorldClub doesn’t either. — you know, if Jesus comes back to Earth, I bet the last thing he’ll want to see again is another cross.

The biggest cost the clubs have is the rental of the space for the clubs at the various airports.   Wayne

Response:

Agree.  Most airline lounges are supported by business travelers flying F or C class, or by travelers buying a membership.  Companies are belt-tightening and travel policies of companies here in the US require cheapest available fares and prohibit memberships in lounges.  That leaves only independently wealthy individuals, who are probably too small a number to justify lounges.

One MAJOR correction here.  Lounge membership and access, especially (or limited to) for domestic flights, in the U.S. cost money.  They’re very rarely given as a perk of elite membership. Free access in general is only given for international flights.  They can be seen as a profit centre.

Response:

One of the great minuses of the US carriers. Charge for membership and then charge for drinks in the lounges.   Actually, not all of them charge for drinks.  CO’s Presidents Club   doesn’t.

NW’s WorldClubs didn’t either. —

Question:

I really like the online accounting idea. No Palm Pilot support with Netledger, Quickbooks, or Peachtree.

Response:

Mr. Stobb: Don’t know PalmPilot – still use cigarette package – plz explain "no support". I do a little online Accounting thing called "INTERbooks Online m3/oas".   I thought PalmPilot etc. fully integrated/interfaced with the Internet therefore have not been really concerned re: "INTERbooks".  If this is something I address & can – I will. Feedback appreciated.  Thx Ric Foxall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I really like the online accounting idea. No Palm Pilot support with Netledger, Quickbooks, or Peachtree.

Response:

Question:

… or nothing to do with accounting.  I would be delighted if these folks were to decide to go off and call themselves Cognitors, leaving us "bean counters" with the title CPA.

… Agree. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *                                                             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

… With regards to undergraduate marketing classes – yes, I took them too.

… I thought everyone was required to.  (I’m not that familiar with other state programs, or current "trends".) Yet, in my experience I have only met one practicing accountant who, IMHO, understood marketing. Come to think about it I’ve met very few who appeared to understand management, maybe its that two percent thing.  (In any group only two percent of the people actually know what they are doing.) — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *                                                             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

… I largely agree with him.  I would rather RISK doing something wrong than to do nothing at all, and I suspect that is what he actually means.

… It is just my two cents.  I think it is rather silly to run off into this concept area of cognitor, when any degree of market research would almost assuredly lead to the rational conclusion that it is a bum concept.  Just like Web Trust, no market research, someone up top had this great idea, lemmings form up, march to the cliff. There are a few (probably very very few) people out there who understand what a practice is and how it should be marketed.  Those people are talking about marketing existing (proven) services that you are delivering now.  I would think it would prove far more benefit to existing practitioners if they started listening to those people instead of looking for the newest, latest, shiniest, hot thing.  What my school the only one that required accounting majors to take a marketing class as part of the undergraduate core? — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *                                                             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … I largely agree with him.  I would rather RISK doing something wrong than to do nothing at all, and I suspect that is what he actually means. … It is just my two cents.  I think it is rather silly to run off into this concept area of cognitor, when any degree of market research would almost assuredly lead to the rational conclusion that it is a bum concept.  Just like Web Trust, no market research, someone up top had this great idea, lemmings form up, march to the cliff. There are a few (probably very very few) people out there who understand what a practice is and how it should be marketed.  Those people are talking about marketing existing (proven) services that you are delivering now.  I would think it would prove far more benefit to existing practitioners if they started listening to those people instead of looking for the newest, latest, shiniest, hot thing.  What my school the only one that required accounting majors to take a marketing class as part of the undergraduate core?

Ron, Your two cents is just a valid as mine, Ed’s, or anyone elses. I do not necessarily disagree with you, however I also recognize that no one approach will work for everyone. One of the points I’m trying to make is that there are a lot of people using the letters CPA as a credibility enhancer with regards to enterprises that have little or nothing to do with accounting.  I would be delighted if these folks were to decide to go off and call themselves Cognitors, leaving us "bean counters" with the title CPA. With regards to undergraduate marketing classes – yes, I took them too. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

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I largely agree with him.  I would rather RISK doing something wrong than to do nothing at all, and I suspect that is what he actually means.

I would agree that far–accountants generally suffer from the mistaken belief that postponing a decision is somehow different from making a decision.  If you aren’t willing to make a mistake, you’ll rarely achieve much. Now, whether Cognitor is what should be done is another issue entirely.  But if the alternative was doing absolutely nothing but sitting around and griping about how unfair the world is, then I’d be an enthusiastic supporter of the Cognitor program (as you might suspect, I think there are other options <grin). But, to quote the old slogan, it’s time to lead, follow or get out of the way.

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But, to quote the old slogan, it’s time to lead, follow or get out of the way.

Ed, Good to hear from you on this item. In my opinion, Joe’s commentary contained a much larger truth. I do remember when the profession’s approach to fraud was to "reduce the expectation gap".  Now we are being told that "periodic financial statement audits have lost their inherent usefulness".  Might it be that the AICPA did in fact succeed in reducing the expectation gap, and that reduced expectations have resulted in less demand? If that is true, and I believe it is, would not some genuine acceptance of a professional responsibility for fraud detection work toward increasing demand? I realize SAS 82 is on the books, however I have seen nothing that leads me to believe it has been genuinely or broadly accepted by "The Profession".  What I see is more in the nature of balking indulgence by "The Industry". — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An interesting, cogent, and thought provoking short commentary by Joseph T. Wells, chairman and founder, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners. http://accounting.pro2net.com/x27568.xml As I read it, Wells is taking a sideways slap. "I would rather do something wrong than nothing at all."  No sir, waste is not a noble endeavor. Why not just come out and say it, "cognitor" is a bad idea and a waste of resources.  As far as the decline of the profession, (this is a rhetorical questions – )wouldn’t it be better to try and make what you have left work better rather than trying to re invent the wheel.  An example. Horses were replaced as the major motive force in the U.S.A. in the 1920’s (appx.), there are still farriers making a living. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *                                                             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Wells entire statement was, "Still, I commend them for trying to do something. That’s my philosophy: unless it’s dangerous or illegal, I would rather do something wrong than nothing at all." Wells is a high energy guy.  The statement is just what he says it is – his philosophy. I largely agree with him.  I would rather RISK doing something wrong than to do nothing at all, and I suspect that is what he actually means. The man is very accomplished.  We can all learn from him. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

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An interesting, cogent, and thought provoking short commentary by Joseph T. Wells, chairman and founder, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners. http://accounting.pro2net.com/x27568.xml

As I read it, Wells is taking a sideways slap. "I would rather do something wrong than nothing at all."  No sir, waste is not a noble endeavor. Why not just come out and say it, "cognitor" is a bad idea and a waste of resources.  As far as the decline of the profession, (this is a rhetorical questions – )wouldn’t it be better to try and make what you have left work better rather than trying to re invent the wheel.  An example. Horses were replaced as the major motive force in the U.S.A. in the 1920’s (appx.), there are still farriers making a living. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *                                                             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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An interesting, cogent, and thought provoking short commentary by Joseph T. Wells, chairman and founder, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners. http://accounting.pro2net.com/x27568.xml — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

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