Question:

Hi Wolfgang, Thank you for the book info. I probably will buy one copy soon. Sincerely, Sam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Google for "GAAP and Canada" For example one of the links, http://www.cica.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/978/la_id/1.htm will take you to: "Significant Differences in GAAP in Canada, Chile, Mexico, and the United States" from the Chartered Accountants of Canada who would like to sell you that information for CDN$40. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA Gestalt Corporation Calgary, AB, Canada www.gestalt.com Hi there, I am a Canadian CGA (near completion) working for an company listed on OTCBB. I have some questions and would like to hear your opinions. 1. What are the differences between US GAAP and Canadian GAAP? Are there any books dedicated to this subject? Are there any authoritive information on the internet available? 2. The FASB’s "General Standards / Industry Standards – Current Text" is available on Amazon.com. But it is very expensive. Is there any way to download a copy of the book or a searchable database? 3. Does the book "Statements of Financial Accounting Concepts" by FASB will help me to know more about US GAAP? Thank you for your advice in advance. Sam

Response:

Google for "GAAP and Canada" For example one of the links, http://www.cica.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/978/la_id/1.htm will take you to: "Significant Differences in GAAP in Canada, Chile, Mexico, and the United States" from the Chartered Accountants of Canada who would like to sell you that information for CDN$40. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA Gestalt Corporation Calgary, AB, Canada www.gestalt.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, I am a Canadian CGA (near completion) working for an company listed on OTCBB. I have some questions and would like to hear your opinions. 1. What are the differences between US GAAP and Canadian GAAP? Are there any books dedicated to this subject? Are there any authoritive information on the internet available? 2. The FASB’s "General Standards / Industry Standards – Current Text" is available on Amazon.com. But it is very expensive. Is there any way to download a copy of the book or a searchable database? 3. Does the book "Statements of Financial Accounting Concepts" by FASB will help me to know more about US GAAP? Thank you for your advice in advance. Sam

Response:

Hi John, Thank you very much for your kind help! I have downloaded all the pdf files that I need. I didn’t know FASB has all that online. Thank you! Sam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The FASB now has PDF files of their standards posted on their web site: http://www.fasb.org/public/ My career started when the AICPA Committee on Accounting Principles was still in existence. I was working for a large firm when FASB started.  A major source of FASB revenue was publication sales, so their publications were not cheap. Now that they get some funding from the US Federal Government they can afford to make the Standards available for download. The FASB also offers a searchable data base for about $500 per year, which I suspect is beyond what you can afford to pay for this information. The PricewaterhouseCoopers Information Guide for doing business in Canada might have some comparisons of accounting principles in Canada versus other countries. It costs about US $ 40 http://www.pwc.com/extweb/pwcpublications.nsf/DocID/AB6307B3B42688458… 2. The FASB’s "General Standards / Industry Standards – Current Text" is available on Amazon.com. But it is very expensive. Is there any way to download a copy of the book or a searchable database? 3. Does the book "Statements of Financial Accounting Concepts" by FASB will help me to know more about US GAAP? Thank you for your advice in advance. Sam

Response:

Hi there, I am a Canadian CGA (near completion) working for an company listed on OTCBB. I have some questions and would like to hear your opinions. 1. What are the differences between US GAAP and Canadian GAAP? Are there any books dedicated to this subject? Are there any authoritive information on the internet available? 2. The FASB’s "General Standards / Industry Standards – Current Text" is available on Amazon.com. But it is very expensive. Is there any way to download a copy of the book or a searchable database? 3. Does the book "Statements of Financial Accounting Concepts" by FASB will help me to know more about US GAAP? Thank you for your advice in advance. Sam

Response:

The FASB now has PDF files of their standards posted on their web site: http://www.fasb.org/public/ My career started when the AICPA Committee on Accounting Principles was still in existence. I was working for a large firm when FASB started.  A major source of FASB revenue was publication sales, so their publications were not cheap. Now that they get some funding from the US Federal Government they can afford to make the Standards available for download. The FASB also offers a searchable data base for about $500 per year, which I suspect is beyond what you can afford to pay for this information. The PricewaterhouseCoopers Information Guide for doing business in Canada might have some comparisons of accounting principles in Canada versus other countries.  It costs about US $ 40 http://www.pwc.com/extweb/pwcpublications.nsf/DocID/AB6307B3B42688458… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2. The FASB’s "General Standards / Industry Standards – Current Text" is available on Amazon.com. But it is very expensive. Is there any way to download a copy of the book or a searchable database? 3. Does the book "Statements of Financial Accounting Concepts" by FASB will help me to know more about US GAAP? Thank you for your advice in advance. Sam

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you plan to come to Canada as a tourist, student or as an immigrant, I invite you to visit our website to get information about the services we provide to people who intend to come to Canada: Website: http://www.xxx.com/index_e.htm We offer the following services: Crook alert.  Most of this stuff, you can easily do by yourself.  Paying an intermediary to do it is just throwing good money after bad. Especially spammers.

If you didn’t know anyone here though, someone who knows their way around red tape and TO could be helpful. It’d depend on the price anyhow. For Canada it’d be somewhat of a bust since you can just walk up to people on the street and ask for stuff, I’d bet 75% would give you a hand.

Response:

No. We offer the following services: Crook alert.  

I second. devil’s Advocate.  :-)

Response:

If you plan to come to Canada as a tourist, student or as an immigrant, I invite you to visit our website to get information about the services we provide to people who intend to come to Canada: Website: http://www.xxx.com/index_e.htm We offer the following services:

Crook alert.  Most of this stuff, you can easily do by yourself.  Paying an intermediary to do it is just throwing good money after bad. Especially spammers.

Response:

If you plan to come to Canada as a tourist, student or as an immigrant, I invite you to visit our website to get information about the services we provide to people who intend to come to Canada: Website: http://www.vamosacanada.com/index_e.htm We offer the following services: A) Services for the immigrant (who has the visa already and will be moving to Canada soon): 1. Airport pickup (Toronto only) 2. Temporary lodging * 3. Apartment search 4. Resume adaptation 5. Transportation from temporary lodging to apartment 6. SIN (Social Insurance Number) and Health Card obtention 7. Driver license 8. Bank Account 9. City map and info (Toronto only) 10. Kids school registration 11. Temporary Health Insurance (IHIP) 12. Accounting Services (I.e., Tax return) 13. Retirement (RRSP) and Education Savings (RESP) plan consultation 14. Auto insurance 15. Airplane tickets 16. Car rental 17. Help buying a car B) Services for students: 1. Airport pickup (Toronto only) 2. Homestay * 3. Bank Account 4. School registration 5. Competitive prices and promotions in only the best schools 6. English, French, TOEFL, TESL, IELTS and English for business courses 7. Acting and Film courses 8. City map and info (Toronto only) 9. Summer and winter camps 10. Airplane tickets (with student discounts) 11. Transportation to schools (Toronto only, from our homestay) 12. Tours (provided by a 3rd party) C) Services for tourists: 1. Airport pickup (Toronto only) 2. Lodging * 3. City map and info (Toronto only) 4. Airplane tickets (with student discounts) 5. Tours (provided by a 3rd party) * The lodging / homestay is provided at our home, subject to availability and at an additional cost. Our home is located north of Toronto, in the suburbs. Students may opt for the school homestay. These services describe what we offer in general. If you have special needs let us know what it is and we will try to acommodate it. I hope this helps. If you have any question or comment please let me know. Regards, Tina

Response:

Question:

            And its requirement in order to be a Mark Johnson-type Catholic… Paul

Response:

Fr. Muller wrong a book on The Catholic Dogma. It’s online. And in it you can read: The conscience of S. O. represented to him his own explanation of Father Muller’s explanation, which is really bad for many reasons, as a good action, and it represented to him Father Muller’s explanation, which is really good, as something that is really bad, and so, from his erroneous conscience, he declared publicly that Father Muller had misrepresented Catholic Theology, and dishonored the Holy Name of God! Now, such errors of conscience are either culpable or inculpable. They are culpable, if they spring from voluntary ignorance, and they are inculpable, if they spring from involuntary ignorance. Ignorance is voluntary or vincible, when one in doing something has certain doubts about the moral goodness or badness of his action, and about the obligation of examining whether his action is really good or bad, and, nevertheless, does not take the necessary means to find out whether what he is about to do is right or wrong. It is, for instance, a law to profess the true religion in order to be saved. Now, suppose there is a non-Catholic. A sermon on the true religion, which he heard, or a book which he read, or a conversation which he had with a friend on this subject, or the conversion of a wealthy or learned man from Protestantism to the Catholic faith, or any other good reason whatever, makes him doubt about the truth of his religion. Such a one is obliged in conscience to seek for light and instruction, if he can. If he cannot do so immediately, he must firmly purpose to procure information, as soon as he can, from those who can give it in a satisfactory manner, and must be determined to renounce his error, if he finds out that he is living in a false religion. Meanwhile, he must beg of God to enlighten him and enable him to do what seems best to him in the present circumstances. If he, however, neglects to seek instruction when he can and ought to do so; if he continues not to heed his religious scruples about his salvation in Protestantism; if he is even afraid of learning the truth, or, if he knows it, contradicts it against his conscience and obscures it every day by unnatural crimes, — ah! then the signs are not hard to read! Such a Protestant sins against his conscience, against the Holy Ghost. He is a tree, black and dead in the middle of summer. He is fit only for the fire. If he is lost, he is lost through his own fault. Ignorance is involuntary, or invincible, if one, in doing something, has not the least reasonable doubt about the goodness of the action. To illustrate: an heir enters upon an estate which formerly was acquired unjustly by his ancestors; but at the time when he took possession of it, he had not the least doubt about the just and lawful acquisition of the estate. In this he is in error, but the error is involuntary, and, therefore, not culpable. After some years, however, he discovers the flaw in his title, and still continues in the possession of the estate. From that time, his conscience becomes voluntarily and criminally erroneous, contrary to good faith and the dictates of a good conscience. "If your error is voluntary," says St. Thomas Aquinas, and you do not do all you can to find out the truth, you are answerable for your conduct in following a false conscience." Such was the conscience of the persecutors of the Church, of whom Jesus Christ says: "Yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you, will think that he doth a service to God." (John, xvi. 2. ) When, in arguing about something, one of the premises is false, the conclusion must necessarily be false. In like manner, all the acts of a conscience, whose error is voluntary or vincible, are bad and partake in the evil result of voluntary ignorance. If you are willfully ignorant of what you are bound in conscience to know, you are responsible for all your actions. Such is the conscience of many sinners, who wish to be ignorant of their duties in order to live without restraint. "They say to God," says Job, "depart from us, we do not desire the knowledge of thy ways." (Job, xxi. 14.) A conscience continuing thus is to act in a known voluntary error, becomes quite criminal in the sight of God. This is the most lamentable and most unhappy state into which a soul can fall; for this kind of conscience drives the sinner into all kinds of crimes, disorders, and excesses, and becomes to him the source of blindness of the understanding, of hardness of heart, and finally, of eternal reprobation, if he perseveres in this state to the end of his life. Witness the writer of the infidel Press. With him it has become fashionable to get rid of religion and conscience. A man who wishes to gratify his evil desires, without shame, without remorse, says:

Question:

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Warmest regards
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Response:

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Warmest regards
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Response:

What we have our hands on!
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Warmest regards
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Response:

Question:

Sorry to hear this, Tick.  But with an attitude like that, you can’t do otherwise than win.  Best of luck with the Novantrone.  Thinkin’ of ya. Love to Dunny. Love Carmel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -GT wrote: > In article <20010201075412.06328.00000…@ng-cv1.aol.com>, >   lisali…@aol.com123 (LisalisaA) wrote: > > amen tick. glad you are back, even for a second. how are you feeling? > > Be Well, > > Lisa > Carmel, Lisa, Thanks.  You know I just gotta stick my head up and bark every > once in awhile.  I scan daily but not for long, just to see if anything is > changing. > Carmel, the "mud ‘n’ the blood" is an old rough stock, horses and bulls, > rodeo expression from amateur weekend rodeos when the ground was wet and > muddy and it seemed like everyone was getting hurt and coming up bloody. > Most were too drunk, too stupid, or both, to quit.  Well, until the beer was > all gone anyway.  After you’d been down in it for awhile, you had bragging > rights. > To you both, thanks for asking.  I’m in another full blown flare.  Went to > the VA Hospital Monday and met my new neuro.  The other one that I liked so > well moved on to bigger and better things.  That’s the way with the VA, they > can’t afford to pay the good ones enough.  This new guy is with a neurlogical > association in Dallas and only comes to the VA Hospital on Mondays for the MS > Clinic.  He’s from Karachi, Pakistan so we had some tales to share from my > time there in service.  I like him which goes a long way. > We agreed that Avonex hadn’t done me any good and the last 9 months of > Copaxone hasn’t shown any change, so, like everything else in my life, I’m > going to hit it straight on with everything at my disposal.  Next step will > be Mitroxantrone (Novantrone), starting next month, for 2 years.  If that > doesn’t win me a belt buckle maybe in 2 years there will be something else to > try. > When dad was struck with multiple myeloma (cancer of the bone marrow) at age > 69 they gave hime 2 years to live.  First words he said when he got over the > shock of diagnosis were, "well, I ain’t gonna lay down".  He died one day > after his 75th birthday.  He put more gusto into that last 6 years than I had > ever seen him put into the previous healthy years.  I believe that his new > motto is what cheated those extra 4 years into his life. > I know that MS isn’t going to kill me but I will carry that motto with me as > long as I’m able.  When and if I do lay down, the twinkle in my eye and the > smirk on my lips will still keep my spirit up. > Remember what Tom said in The Grapes Of Wrath?  "I’ll be all around in the > dark.  I’ll be ever’where–ever’where you look." > See ya, Tick > — > *****Don’t cry because it’s over, smile because it happened***** > TICK’S PLACE > http://community.webtv.net/OLTICK/TICKSPLACE > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/

– " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." web sites at: http://welcome.to/jaragun http://connect.to/carmel

Response:

On 01 Feb 2001 22:43:07 GMT, kamatth…@aol.com (Kathi Matthews) wrote: >The old days weren’t so bad.  I’ve been on computers since 1981 and had my own >since 1986.  I have been on BBS’s since 1985 and sometimes miss Fidonet.  But >it took longer (several days) to receive messages.  

The old days were far more fun than the internet of today, I think.  I purchased my first computer, a Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I, in 1979 and got my first modem in 1981.  I started my first BBS circa 1984, a piece of crap known as Connection 80. A fellow sysop also ran the Connection 80 and we used to crash each other’s BBS monthly.  I would leave a message to him saying something like, "Hey, George, at 9pm I am going to log on your BBS and come straight through your passwords."  He would watch as I did so and it was then his job to modify the code and give the mod to me.  Next month, I would receive a similar message from him and then I had to fix the code and provide him with the mod. Fidonet came somewhat later for me (couldn’t afford an IBM PC back then, they cost well over $5000.00 for a system with 5 1/4 inch floppy drives only).  But these bulletin boards were paid for from the sysop’s own pocket; just think what we could have done with a fraction of the government money that went into building the internet!  Hobbyist vs business, I guess. — Spelling and grammatical errors are deliberate to catch copyright violators.

Question:

Does anyone know someone who would like to make 50-70k a year as a tech support engineer   Fax: 408-282-1059

Sure but not in San Jose.  You could hardly pay the rent on $50K in San Jose.

Response:

Does anyone know someone who would like to make 50-70k a year as a tech support engineer. They must be familiar with Solomon Accounting software and/or Crystal Report Writer software. Basic understanding of networking technologies is a major plus. The company will train this person on SQL server extensively – there is definite room for upward advancement within this company. Additional training may be provided in other areas as well. If you come from an accounting background and want to have some fun while you learn and make good money please send your contact info and resume to: Fax: 408-282-1059

Response:

Question:

Hi, all… I have a question about who I should invite to the wedding.  I haven’t been working where I’m working for very long.  Maybe about 4 months or so.  There is one lady that I work with that I talk to on a personal level quite often, so I consider her a friend (although we never see each other outside of work) and I will invite her to my wedding.  But there are others that I’m not so sure about.  I wonder if I should invite my boss (who I don’t talk to on a personal level very often) and a guy in another department that, although I don’t talk to him everyday and don’t see him outside of work, when I do have to work with him, we talk on a personal level (about SOs and friends, etc) and joke around and stuff.  I guess the main thing you need to know here is that after the end of August, I won’t be working there anymore.  So do I invite co-workers that, come the wedding day, I no longer work with?  I don’t want to seem like I’m looking for gifts. Thanks, Stef (and Jason, 10/2/99)

Response:

Hi, all… I have a question about who I should invite to the wedding.  I haven’t been working where I’m working for very long.  Maybe about 4 months or so.  There is one lady that I work with that I talk to on a personal level quite often, so I consider her a friend (although we never see each other outside of work) and I will invite her to my wedding.  But there are others that I’m not so sure about.  I wonder if I should invite my boss (who I don’t talk to on a personal level very often) and a guy in another department that, although I don’t talk to him everyday and don’t see him outside of work, when I do have to work with him, we talk on a personal level (about SOs and friends, etc) and joke around and stuff.  I guess the main thing you need to know here is that after the end of August, I won’t be working there anymore.  So do I invite co-workers that, come the wedding day, I no longer work with?  I don’t want to seem like I’m looking for gifts.

If you don’t associate w/a co-worker outside of work, there’s no real reason to invite them to your wedding. After all, a wedding is a pretty personal, emotional event. If a co-worker hasn’t even been over for dinner (or out for drinks/movies or to one of your parties or otherwise joined you in a social, non-work-related occassion), then are they really a close enough of a friend to witness your wedding?  IMO, they’re not.  I’d say the same thing for bosses as for co-workers. The fact that you wonder if you should invite them when you no longer work with them is a big clue that these people are not particularly close friends. They’re work buddies, and it seems that the *only* connection you have to them is thru work. That’s fine — everyone has relationships like that.  But that chummy-ness doesn’t mean they’re good friends who you can share one of the most personally meaningful moments of your life with. Save those places at the table for family and treasured friends! For example, this week, I am leaving a company I’ve been with for over 3yrs.  My wedding is next March.  I will definitely invite about a dozen of these former co-workers to my wedding because we are all friends *outside* of work. We go to each others parties, we house-sit for each other during vacations, we have dinner together frequently, we go camping together, etc. I will certainly see them between now and the wedding, even tho’ we won’t be working together. There are many other people at this company who I’ve been chatty with a great deal, but I’ve never done anything outside of work events with them. So those people aren’t invited (and even if I was not leaving the company, they still wouldn’t be invited). –T. .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a.g.f.faq.chick                           gothic martha stewart ebay sales at http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/toreadorbat/

Response:

I have the same problem.  I work for a Insurance Co.  I talk and to everyone and I am friends with everyone.  My problem is my department is all of 3 people.  I ivited my boss and the other women I work with. Theyboth came to my shower.  The other girl I only talk to at work.  The others are I am sending invites to. When I ask for an opion they said I should really invite her.  I don’t want to though.  I only speak to her at work.   The other thing is the other department we are close to.  I eat lunch with them all and at work like them all.  I get along with everyone.  I only want to invite one of them.  Everyone said I can’t invite one without inviing all of them. Our company is very small.  So eeryone will know who went to the wedding or it would come out one day.   I don’t want anyone feeling to be hurt. Should I just invite everone from that department and the other girl in mine. I really don’t think some will come.  I just don’t know what to do thought???   Any advice would be great!!!!  

Response:

Any advice would be great!

Invite who YOU want to invite. Forget what everyone else says. If you weren’t busy opening your mouth to everyone about who to invite and who not to invite, people would be less likely to get their feelings hurt. Ron Ng Knows!

Response:

If you don’t associate w/a co-worker outside of work, there’s no real reason to invite them to your wedding. After all, a wedding is a pretty personal, emotional event. If a co-worker hasn’t even been over for dinner (or out for drinks/movies or to one of your parties or otherwise joined you in a social, non-work-related occassion), then are they really a close enough of a friend to witness your wedding?  IMO, they’re not.  I’d say the same thing for bosses as for co-workers.

        I think this idea of "if you don’t see them outside of work" really needs to be rephrased… If you feel that your relationship with someone who is a co-worker is a social one (rather than one based on your work) then it’s perfectly fine to invite them, even though you don’t necessarily do anything with them outside the office. (For example, when I was a young child, my mother didn’t socialize much with anyone outside office hours, as she didn’t like leaving me with a babysitter. So while she had friends she worked with, she rarely saw them outside of work- with the exception of events like weddings.)         The key is really how close you are to an individual, not what you do or don’t do with them. If you would enjoy having someone at your wedding, invite them. If you won’t, or are only inviting them because you are obliged to, then don’t. (Barring family politics.)         The only thing to keep in mind when inviting people like co-workers, or other members of a larger group, is that you need to be sure to invite them in such a way that other people don’t feel left out. (I.e. don’t spend a lot of time talking about the wedding with this person, bu tnot anyone else; send the invitation to the home, not the office, that sort of thing.) -Kris

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After reading both views on this, I think I have to agree with Kris.  There are 2 people at work that I *want* to invite.  I don’t see either of these people or their SOs outside of work, but not because we don’t want to.  We don’t see them outside of work because they both have small children and don’t have alot of free time.  These are the kind of work friends that when I do have to work with them, we usually end up talking too much about our personal lives and not enough about work.  I guess I just feel guilty about inviting someone that I’m not going to be working with in the future and I’m not sure I will get to see very often because of their schedules. My decision:  I am going to invite them.  They are my friends and I’m sure we will all try to keep in touch after I have left my job.  I am not going to invite my boss.  She has asked me questions about the wedding, but we don’t get very personal, and I definitly won’t keep in touch with her after I leave my job.  As for the other people in my department, they are the same as my boss, so I won’t invite them either.  It is a large enough company that nobody will even notice. Thanks for your views on this!  It really helped me sort it out! Stefani and Jason, 10/2/99

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you don’t associate w/a co-worker outside of work, there’s no real reason to invite them to your wedding. After all, a wedding is a pretty personal, emotional event. If a co-worker hasn’t even been over for dinner (or out for drinks/movies or to one of your parties or otherwise joined you in a social, non-work-related occassion), then are they really a close enough of a friend to witness your wedding?  IMO, they’re not.  I’d say the same thing for bosses as for co-workers. I think this idea of "if you don’t see them outside of work" really needs to be rephrased… If you feel that your relationship with someone who is a co-worker is a social one (rather than one based on your work) then it’s perfectly fine to invite them, even though you don’t necessarily do anything with them outside the office. (For example, when I was a young child, my mother didn’t socialize much with anyone outside office hours, as she didn’t like leaving me with a babysitter. So while she had friends she worked with, she rarely saw them outside of work- with the exception of events like weddings.) The key is really how close you are to an individual, not what you do or don’t do with them. If you would enjoy having someone at your wedding, invite them. If you won’t, or are only inviting them because you are obliged to, then don’t. (Barring family politics.) The only thing to keep in mind when inviting people like co-workers, or other members of a larger group, is that you need to be sure to invite them in such a way that other people don’t feel left out. (I.e. don’t spend a lot of time talking about the wedding with this person, bu tnot anyone else; send the invitation to the home, not the office, that sort of thing.) -Kris

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After reading both views on this, I think I have to agree with Kris.  There are 2 people at work that I *want* to invite.

May I make a suggestion?  If at all possible, mail the invitations to the co-workers’ homes.  Some people could be very hurt and feel left out if you don’t invited them, but they see you hand deliver invitations to only one or two other coworkers in the office.  It would especially be hurtful to the not-invited if they expected you to invite everyone. This happened in an office I worked in years ago.  The bride (very young, her first job, etc).  She talked about the wedding for months and asked our advice, and a few times she even said things like "you guys’ll love what we’re doing". So it’s not odd that everyone expected to be invited.  Lo and behold, a few weeks before the wedding, the bride handed invitations to just a few of us, and then nothing for everyone else standing around almost stunned.  It wasn’t so much that they weren’t invited, but more because of the insensitivity for the bride to deliver the invitations in front of coworkers who were not being invited to the wedding.

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That is a good suggestion.  One of the two people I plan to invite, I will mail it to her home.  She works very closely with others the others in accounting, unlike myself, and although I’m sure they don’t expect an invitation, I would still feel very rude.  The other person I plan to invite, however, works in a whole other department and doesn’t work with anyone I even know (other than saying a happy hello to now and again), so I might just hand deliver that one.  But who knows…  :-) Thanks again for the suggestion. Stefani and Jason, 10/2/99

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After reading both views on this, I think I have to agree with Kris. There are 2 people at work that I *want* to invite. May I make a suggestion?  If at all possible, mail the invitations to the co-workers’ homes.  Some people could be very hurt and feel left out if you don’t invited them, but they see you hand deliver invitations to only one or two other coworkers in the office.  It would especially be hurtful to the not-invited if they expected you to invite everyone. This happened in an office I worked in years ago.  The bride (very young, her first job, etc).  She talked about the wedding for months and asked our advice, and a few times she even said things like "you guys’ll love what we’re doing". So it’s not odd that everyone expected to be invited.  Lo and behold, a few weeks before the wedding, the bride handed invitations to just a few of us, and then nothing for everyone else standing around almost stunned.  It wasn’t so much that they weren’t invited, but more because of the insensitivity for the bride to deliver the invitations in front of coworkers who were not being invited to the wedding.

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I missed the original post, so forgive me if this was already covered! I work in a small office, with four other people.  Mom & Dad are trying to keep our wedding on the small & affordable side.  However, since we have such a close working atmosphere, I should invite all four (plus spouses) to the wedding.  My problem is this – one of my coworkers and I have been on rocky grounds for some time – there is much tension between us that fluctuates – some days everything is normal, while other days she won’t give me the time of day.  I personally would like to not invite her because I don’t want to put up with her pettiness on my special day.  However, I think in order to keep peace in the office and keep me sane in the future, I’m thinking I should just invite her and stick her at a table in the corner and forget she’s there.  Mom thinks I’m nuts to even consider this, however a trusted coworker who knows and agrees with my situation thinks it’s for the best to invite her (even offered to pay their way, which I could never accept). Any feelings on this?  Thanks! Mabster (to Ed 10/23/99) PS – this group is fun!  Glad I stumbled upon you guys before it was too late!

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I would say invite her.  I know how you feel… I wouldn’t want to invite her either, but if everyone else will be invited, that doesn’t leave you much choice unless you just want things to get worse at the office. Stefani and Jason, 10/2/99

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I missed the original post, so forgive me if this was already covered! I work in a small office, with four other people.  Mom & Dad are trying to keep our wedding on the small & affordable side.  However, since we have such a close working atmosphere, I should invite all four (plus spouses) to the wedding.  My problem is this – one of my coworkers and I have been on rocky grounds for some time – there is much tension between us that fluctuates – some days everything is normal, while other days she won’t give me the time of day.  I personally would like to not invite her because I don’t want to put up with her pettiness on my special day.  However, I think in order to keep peace in the office and keep me sane in the future, I’m thinking I should just invite her and stick her at a table in the corner and forget she’s there.  Mom thinks I’m nuts to even consider this, however a trusted coworker who knows and agrees with my situation thinks it’s for the best to invite her (even offered to pay their way, which I could never accept). Any feelings on this?  Thanks! Mabster (to Ed 10/23/99) PS – this group is fun!  Glad I stumbled upon you guys before it was too late!

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I work in a small office, with four other people.  Mom & Dad are trying to keep our wedding on the small & affordable side.  However, since we have such a close working atmosphere, I should invite all four (plus spouses) to the wedding.  My problem is this – one of my coworkers and I have been on rocky grounds for some time – there is much tension between us that fluctuates – some days everything is normal, while other days she won’t give me the time of day.  I personally would like to not invite her because I don’t want to put up with her pettiness on my special day.   (SNIP)

I think you should invite all four or none.  In a larger office, leaving people out wouldn’t be so obvious ("She invited the people she was closest to.") but with four people, it would be a pretty open slight and change "rocky grounds" to open warfare.  I don’t think her pettiness will be evident at the wedding–there will be enough people making a fuss over you so you won’t even know she’s there.  It may even bring about better relations. ("I didn’t think she liked me, but she invited me to her wedding.  She must have some positive feelings toward me") Best wishes, gloria p

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Question:

Brian, I wonder about the question of the quality of the seal of the screw top. If it were so poor, why do they use them for carbonated beverages. These drinks have not only the need to seal in the liquid, but also to withstand the pressure of the carbonation. If there were a problem with this type of closure, I’m sure that stores around the world would be having leaking pop bottles on a regular basis. Seeing as I’ve never seen or heard of this I can only assume that it doesn’t happen often. Now if they keep the pressurized pop in, why on earth would they not be capable of keeping wine sealed? Conversely, how many times have you heard of a failed cork? I suspect these screw tops are actually much better than is being said in this thread. Once again I also suspect that the main reason they are used in "cheap" wines is that the consumer wants to spend the least possible on the wine and the producers are attempting to meet that demand. Of course we all know that having a cork in the bottle is no measure of quality, but it makes sense that the best wines will at the very least, get good closures, be they cork, corq, or screw top. Paul

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Just because it’s written up in an old reference doesn’t mean that it’s Gospel. True.

I will second that, especially if, as the original poster suggested, it might be Stanley Anderson. The book I have of his was fine for me as a beginner, but over time I have come to realize just how outdated and technically inaccurate it really is. IMO, it is also a thinly veiled promo for the Wine-Art chain of stores. Trust your senses, and question even your experiences.  (IOW, I’m not buying Indeed – now that is exactly why I am drawing the parallel between synthetic corks and plastic stoppers or screw caps.  If a natural cork makes no difference to a wine then the angst of corkscrews becomes history.  It may be the power of mental suggestion but I [ and many countless others ] are convinced a wine becomes more mellow and rounded under cork than plastic.  I suspect the synthetics will leave a wine largely unchanged except it be in bottle for 30 years … on second thought the synthetics may start breaking down long before 30 years.  Man-made is not synonymous with longevity.

First of all, I don’t equate synthetic corks (I will call them corqs since the brand I am most familiar with is made by SupremeCorq) to screw caps. I don’t think screw cap gaskets provide an adequate long term seal against oxygen, nor were they designed to. Wine in screw cap bottles is universally a low cost jug wine intended for early consumption. The producers of these wines know that their market is not looking for a wine to cellar for several years. Now, how are you and countless others convinced that a corked wine will become more mellow and rounded over time compared to a corqed wine? Corqs are a fairly recent introduction, so there is really no long term experience with plastic seals, other than screw caps which I view as inadequate for long term protection. In 10 or 15 years, perhaps experience will side with your position, but for now, your comments are purely speculative. the bit about corks having to "breathe" – not for a femtosecond!) I presume you insist on plastic or synthetic enclosures for all your wine? I’m sorry to be such a skeptic on this but my senses say it just does not add up. If synthetic and plastic were at least neutral to the wine, is it not possible wine producers would be marketing the hell out of it? After all, any device which will allow them to cut their losses is pure profit.  Are wine makers not looking for the holy grail of an old wine with the least risk? It just doesn’t add up.

I can’t speak for Tom, but I have switched exclusively to corqs. They are pricier than corks, even good ones, but I view the added cost per bottle (maybe 10-15 cents) as really insignificant. Also, you can save some money by buying large quantities (I buy 1000 at a time) without having to worry about ensuring proper storage conditions to protect the moisture level as you would with real corks. I view the world of wine as being steeped in tradition, often at the expense of common sense. I believe most wine consumers believe that a good wine MUST come with a real cork. So, if the "public" is not ready to accept synthetic corks in the so called "quality wines", a producer would be foolish or a daring visionary, to package the product that way. Also, if corqs are proven over time to be superior for long term aging, I wouldn’t want to be the one to have to tell all my customers who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars acquiring my product for their cellars, that the wines are inadequately protected by an inferior seal. I think for many wine producers, it is in their interest if synthetic corks do not achieve widespread acceptance. Brian

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That may be so but I suspect the extremely tight fit and lack of breathing

will make for a poor aging process.  Otherwise a screw on cap is of equal or no lesser value. —

Actually, that’s half right.  Screw caps are as good as the best synthetic corks.  Wine aging is not dependent upon diffusion through the cork, and the wine actually _suffers_ from that effect.  As perfect a seal as you can obtain will be best for the wine, allowing the lethargic aging reactions to take place gracefully. Tom S

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My understanding is that synthetic corks do not allow a wine to age properly.  the same goes for Plastic corks.  If your corker does not work worth a damn, it does not really matter what your corks look like.

I have to plead ignorance regarding synthetic corks.  Exactly what is a "synthetic" cork? I’ve had a few wines in recent months which were corked with a composite cork, made of what appeared to be small pieces of natural cork.  These held together well and didn’t drop chips into the wine. Also, I’ve had a few wines that were corked with a plastic cork shaped like a natural cork (as opposed to the plastic t-tops of bulk sparklers).  These are dark redish purple in color and have lines on the side, as if they were made of smaller pieces, although the corks do appear to actually be a single piece of plastic. — Bryan Fazekas

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I suspect the main reason corks are used is tradition. I also suspect that in time, few wineries will use corks as the cost and ease of use of other materials comes in line with cork. It certainly is true that there is some ullage in most cork topped wine. Whether that is a good thing or not, I’m not sure. There are plenty of composite corks out there that in most ways present no path for ullage except along their edges. I suspect that will be as true with synthetic corks. Undoubtably there will be an ongoing discussion and ensuing disagreements on this issue for centuries to come. Paul

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Bonny Doone is.  Not in all their wines, but at least a couple that I’ve had recently (hell…they use a bottle cap on the lightly-sparkling "Muscato del Solo".) Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harry, Who is using them? I understand that Hogue was for a while but that they either stopped or were planning on it. Not that I buy many commercial wines, but I’ve never even seen one with a synthetic cork. In a world run by accountants, I can’t imagine the use of "corks" that costs 2-3 times as much as the real thing. Having said that, I imagine there are those who will be doing it to try and make a statement, or for the ultimate ability to age the wine. Paul

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I have to find the reference (Stanley Anderson I think) that talks about

the need for corks to breathe as a constituent part of aging. It is certainly not unusual for wines in long age to decrease significantly in volume – dehydration which also concentrates _some_ flavours and maybe lessen others. That could be why some old wines are crap and others are priceless. Just because it’s written up in an old reference doesn’t mean that it’s Gospel.  There is _lots_ of pseudoscience and just plain nonsense out there masquerading as truth.  Trust your senses, and question even your experiences.  (IOW, I’m not buying the bit about corks having to "breathe" – not for a femtosecond!) Tom S

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Brian, Synthetic corks are made from material other than cork, presumably some sort of plastic conglomerate. They are shaped like and feel somewhat like real cork but definitely are not real cork. I suspect they are superior to real cork in almost every aspect except cost. The one downfall I have heard of is the difficulty in the insertion process. I have a sample of about 10 of them and one of these days I will use them and report back to the newsgroup on my experience. Paul

Paul , there is a totally different technique to insert them. Insertion is not a problem.  However, removal can be, especially if the cork had been used previously. Harry Demidavicius

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I have read about signicant use in France, but met my first one in a Spokane restaurant.  The wine came from Oregon – struggling to recall the name ….  Don’t know about "twice the cost" – but it’s certainly twice the retail price –   … Harry Demidavicius – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harry, Who is using them? I understand that Hogue was for a while but that they either stopped or were planning on it. Not that I buy many commercial wines, but I’ve never even seen one with a synthetic cork. In a world run by accountants, I can’t imagine the use of "corks" that costs 2-3 times as much as the real thing. Having said that, I imagine there are those who will be doing it to try and make a statement, or for the ultimate ability to age the wine. Paul

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It may be interesting to hear what the experts have to say about synthetic corks. Dr. Graham Parnell (Ph.D.) oenologist,  winery consultant and lecturer at Sonoma County Wineries Association contends that synthetic corks are the best way to retain aromatics in the wine; with real corks, they fade in 6 to 9 months. Synthetic corks eliminate the problem of bacteria as well as wine spoilage due to cork taint. Some of the California wineries using synthetic corks are: St. Francis Vineyards, Louis Martini, Rodney Strong and Windsor Vineyards. Jack Z – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harry, Who is using them? I understand that Hogue was for a while but that they either stopped or were planning on it. Not that I buy many commercial wines, but I’ve never even seen one with a synthetic cork. In a world run by accountants, I can’t imagine the use of "corks" that costs 2-3 times as much as the real thing. Having said that, I imagine there are those who will be doing it to try and make a statement, or for the ultimate ability to age the wine. Paul

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Brian, Synthetic corks are made from material other than cork, presumably some sort of plastic conglomerate. They are shaped like and feel somewhat like real cork but definitely are not real cork. I suspect they are superior to real cork in almost every aspect except cost. The one downfall I have heard of is the difficulty in the insertion process. I have a sample of about 10 of them and one of these days I will use them and report back to the newsgroup on my experience. Paul

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My understanding is that synthetic corks do not allow a wine to age properly.  the same goes for Plastic corks.  If your corker does not work worth a damn, it does not really matter what your corks look like.

That being the case, why have many commercial wineries adopted them? Harry Demidavicius

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I’ve had the same thing said to me by various minemakers at commercial wineries. Paul

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Harry, Who is using them? I understand that Hogue was for a while but that they either stopped or were planning on it. Not that I buy many commercial wines, but I’ve never even seen one with a synthetic cork. In a world run by accountants, I can’t imagine the use of "corks" that costs 2-3 times as much as the real thing. Having said that, I imagine there are those who will be doing it to try and make a statement, or for the ultimate ability to age the wine. Paul

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I got a wine recently that had a synthetic cork, and have opened many with plastic stoppers. I can see from the condition the synthetic cork was in (near-perfect) after removing it form the bottle that some winemakers reuse them. — REPLY NOTE: remove the ".removethis" to make the address read: T2000 at Zoomnet dot net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harry, Who is using them? snip<<< I can’t imagine the use of "corks" that costs 2-3 times as much as the real thing.

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I dont know, have they? — Doug Evans VinBrew Supply Carroll, Ohio (740)756-4314

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My understanding is that synthetic corks do not allow a wine to age properly.  the same goes for Plastic corks.  If your corker does not work worth a damn, it does not really matter what your corks look like. That being the case, why have many commercial wineries adopted them? Harry Demidavicius

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I have also heard that wine ages more slowly in a larger container than a smaller one, but I suspect that the difference is slight.

Wines do appear to age slower in larger size containers, and I’ve had personal experience with different aging rates.  Typically I bottle wines in a mixture of 1.5 liter and 750 ml bottles. I bottled a carboy of Carmine in the two different sizes, and discovered that the 750 ml bottles were drinkable within 6 months of bottling, whereas the 1.5 liter bottles were drinkable about a year and half after bottling. This also appears to occur with whites, but the differential isn’t as large. — Bryan Fazekas

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Look for the brand Altec. They are composition corks and have been the greatest find in the cork end of winemaking. I’m not associated with the company so there is no conflict here. They cost a bit more but are completely reliable. Unlike any other cork I’ve used, I’ve never had a failure, and you can lay your bottles on their sides immediately after corking without fear of leaks. The plastic corks are expensive. Paul

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My understanding is that synthetic corks do not allow a wine to age properly.  the same goes for Plastic corks.  If your corker does not work worth a damn, it does not really matter what your corks look like. — Doug Evans VinBrew Supply Carroll, Ohio (740)756-4314 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there a way to tell the good corks from bad ones and it would be interesting to hear from people that use plastic corks what they think or what made them switch…. I was told by a wine shop owner to look for faults (small veins) that run along the length of the cork that could allow wine to seep past the cork. Small chunks and imperfections don’t matter. The longer the vertical fault, the more likely it is to leak. I wonder about synthetic corks myself, so this might prove to be an interesting thread. CHANGE RETURN ADDRESS by removing the ".removethis" from it to reply so that it reads: t2000 at zoomnet dot net

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My understanding is that synthetic corks do not allow a wine to age properly

Up to now, nobody has any experimental data demonstrating this. And while I myself have no data to support what I am going to say, there is a lot more to aging than oxydation. I believe that oxydation in general is mostly detrimental to wine, and that wine will age far better in well sealed bottles. This week I had a bottle of 1991 Ch

Question:

Up in the Catskills of New York State there is a primative camping area that used to be equipped with the comtemporary outhouses most of us are

Bob, I know the place and remember when they were being put in. I also remember using them with umbrella in hand to stay dry on a rainy day, and I also remember going in there and having to have to remove several inches of snow before I could sit down. I also remember cursing the state for not putting on a roof! But, the vandalism problem is extreme. The parking lot of that particular place plays host to the hoards from Brooklyn and Queens when hunting season opens. You can stay back in the woods around the lake and watch the bonfires roar in the (no camping) parking lots, listen while they unload round after round into the fire just for fun and know that these guys are drunker than they should be with guns in hand… Scary. J — Bongo Boy never litters! [www.bongoboy.com]

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years I would suggest the cost of the architects. I wonder if those architects will brag about their designing outhouses on their resumes. <G

Oh, no question. If you want to read about bad architecture get Don Norman’s         The Psychology of Everyday Things (1st. ed.)         The Design of Everyday Things (subsequent eds.) And then the recently oft cited Brand’s "How Buildings Learn." I know one outhouse architect in Santa Rosa.  Ken lives in Santa Rosa and he made the outhouse for the Sierra Club’s Benson hut.  When marmots started attacking the plywood, he retaliated with redwood.  Very nicely designed. Ken’s not an architect.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?               ~                  Brett J. Nodello                ~               ~  http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/Trails/1039/  ~ Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

The article says, it "features a slate, gabled roof, cottage-style porches and a cobblestone foundation that can withstand an earthquake. The baseboards are covered with $78-a-gallon paint and the wildflower seed cost $720 a pound." — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years I would suggest the cost of the architects.

I wonder if those architects will brag about their designing outhouses on their resumes. <G

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: What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly.

Up in the Catskills of New York State there is a primative camping area that used to be equipped with the comtemporary outhouses most of us are familar with. You know the type, small wooden building with one or two seats over a hole in the ground. Anyway, over the years the outhouses were disappearing because campers were using them for firewood. The State finally woke up, took better control of the area, and decided to replace the missing outhouses. What they did is just about as vandalism-proof as you can get. They took large pieces of culvert, turned them on end and buried one end  in the ground. They then cut an opening in the culvert and attached hinges to the piece they removed to make a door. Inside the culver is the same old standard outhouse pit, with a seat on it. They did not put roofs on these, because they felt they would invite removal. So what they have are roofless outhouses made of steel scatter around this primative camping area. About the only thing that can be damaged with this setup is the seat. I know, I’ve been in a couple that were missing their’s (I assumed it was a camper needing to keep his/her fire going). Bob Clark

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  $400,000 (to more or less split the difference) would have cleaned up a lot of litter, repaired a lot of trails, or purchased a fair number of acres.

Hi Stephen, I have to agree with your assessment.  In all fairness however, I would like to add a personal note.  I recently spent 5 years in the Denver area.  Since my husband and I enjoy spending a fair amount of time outdoors, we have managed to use a lot of "outhouses".  Colorado has chosen to use a % of their lottery money on the Parks system.  They have an "outhouse" built by Clivus Multrum of Sweden that is a delight to roost in.  The works itself is a composter and this seems gentler on the ecology than the old system of using lye and such.  These units didn’t stink and NO flies.  They have a skylight and are well lit.  I believe they are also maintained by a full staff of rangers.  I don’t believe I ever saw one of these units vandilized.  Even out in the backcountry they were clean. Beverly Carl & Beverly Ferree San Dimas, California Carl WA6PPG * Beverly KC6HSW RV-Club Charter R-CHAR-00202*GS Life #1304083 SKP #43475; C2C #924966; WBCCI #7303 WBCCI FullTimers Club http://www.fulltiming-america.com/WBCCI RV-Talk is sponsored by the RV Club http://www.rvclub.com

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I heard about this outhouse.  I’m thinking of including a copy of the article in our website at http://www.freeourparks.org since I think such blatant waste is relevant to the issue of user fees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000.

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and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

No, no, no. Break *out* of them. Them city folk get all cornfused when their ain’t no handle on the toilet. J — Bongo Boy never litters! [www.bongoboy.com]

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It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

No, they do stuff like wrap a chain around the commode and attach the end to their 4×4 and yank the sucker out. It’s a sport to some folks. Even though you try to make these facilities vandalism-proof, some yahoo is going to figure out a way to break it or steal it. —         ‘Do the boogie woogie in the South American way’                               Hank Snow  THE RHUMBA BOOGIE

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One thing the article didn’t point out (and I assume is true in this instance) is that capital money (construction) and operations (maintenance) money are two different animals in most federal agencies. From my experience it is always easier to get grants for capital projects versus anything to do with operations–most politicians want to build something new rather than properly maintain something older. Hence the NPS bias towards building over-spec’ed structures. Just take a look at the last 15 years of appropriations versus budgets for operations for the NPS from our buddies in Congress. The politicians are willing to budget big bucks for parks but they have never appropriated the entire amount budgeted–i.e. the budget plays well in the media but the media never goes back to check if all the budgeted monies are appropriated (too boring compared with scandal, murder and general stupidity). Still, that’s an awfully expensive shitter–sounds ridiculously excessive no matter who was in charge… Peter

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It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly.

Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

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Some people still argue NPS needs more money.  They certainly need no more of mine for nonsense like this.  $400,000 (to more or less split the difference) would have cleaned up a lot of litter, repaired a lot of trails, or purchased a fair number of acres.

Yuh, it might be nice to have such high quality – but common sense says that they could have quality without high price- not that high anyways. It’s not a choice between an old fashioned $20 out house and this $400,000 "palace".

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: What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. —    "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"                            Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)

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I’ll bet that users of the facility have a truly satisfying experience in there. Perhaps the outhouse is worth one of those little red squares that Rand McNally puts on their maps, to denote points of interest. — your favorite soils professional remove "spamnot" to e-mail

And I’m sure architecture students from around the world have assignments to visit this structure for it’s advanced concepts in … uh.. whatever. But what the heck is $330,000 in a $1,600,000,000,000 budget. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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For $330,000 the National Park Service had to have known they were going to have to take a lot of shit for this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag? I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t imagine what about this project’s paint would warrant a special formula resulting in $78/gallon, but it may have something to do with special enviro-friendly considerations.  If this is the only such unit built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

,

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: : What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? : : I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of : that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the : so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, : the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single : unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid : for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t A better analogy would be to the $2000 coffee pot.  Yes, it was $2000, but it was not your run-of-the-mill "Mr. Coffee."  The Air Force needed something to prepare coffee for several hundred people at a time on a moving platform that wouldn’t spill boiling water all over the troops it was transporting every time it needed to make a turn. Obviously, Porta-Potties would be cheaper.  But they wouldn’t exactly blend into the background and they wouldn’t be natural appearing. At the same time, it’s likely that there’s a good amount of fat in this bit of pork.  Still, the amount of wasted money on this project is probably several time smaller than it appears on first glance. Todd

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What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?

I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t imagine what about this project’s paint would warrant a special formula resulting in $78/gallon, but it may have something to do with special enviro-friendly considerations.  If this is the only such unit built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

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<snip, slice, chop built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

Do you: A-Run away B-Climb Something – Climb Anything! (from a beer commercial) <G

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Here’s the article my GF sent me about this high dollar outhouse. Seems to be a prime example of poor oversight in the government as well as a congressman making sure he "brings home the bacon" to his home district.  INQUIRER WASHINGTON BUREAU  DELAWARE WATER GAP, Pa. — There’s a remarkable new building in the  federal park here: a two-hole outhouse, without running water, that cost  the National Park Service at least $333,000.  It’s nestled amid evergreens, with a gabled slate roof, cottage-style  porches, and a handsomely tapered cobblestone masonry foundation in the  manner of Frank Lloyd Wright. A medley of wildflowers hides any sign of  new construction.  Inside each spacious restroom, a green horizontal stripe at baseboard  level plays off the green of hemlocks visible through discreetly placed  picture windows. The place smells as sweet as the woods.  More than a dozen Park Service designers, architects and engineers spent  two years designing this privy, which opened in May 1996. And Park  Service officials say they don’t consider it expensive.  “We could have built it cheaper, yes, but we wanted someone coming up  the trail or off the road to encounter a nice restroom facility,” says  Roger Rector, the park superintendent who signed off on the new outhouse  in 1995.  “Frankly, that’s what we’re paying for toilets,” shrugs Dennis Galvin,  deputy director of the National Park Service. They’re meant to last 50  years or longer with little maintenance, he explains, and top-quality  construction naturally costs more. Lots more.  The hemlock-matching paint designers specified, for example, is  custom-mixed epoxy resin that costs $78 a gallon. Certified Joe Pye Weed  seed called for in its wildflower design cost $720 a pound. The toilets  are $13,000 state-of-the-art composting models custom built by Advanced  Composting Systems of Whitefish, Mont. Capstones that serve as porch  railings are of quarried Indiana limestone. The clapboard siding is  one-inch cedar. And, while local slate has been good enough for  Pennsylvania homes for centuries, it wasn’t good enough for this  outhouse. So slate was shipped in from Vermont.  If there’s an earthquake, don’t worry. This may be the only privy in  Pennsylvania with 29-inch-thick foundation walls designed to withstand  one. But in midwinter, the doors will be locked because composting  toilets don’t work in freezing temperatures.  “It’s beautiful, but I’m glad I always travel with Handi Wipes,”  remarked Ann Jones of Woodbridge, N.J., after a brief stop at the  comfort station. “At first,” she added, “I thought it was a visitor  center.”  In two hours on a sunny September Saturday, Jones was one of 10 visitors  to the facility, located at a trailhead in a lovely, remote ravine 300  yards from Raymondskill Falls in the Delaware Water Gap National  Recreation Area. Summer traffic is heavier, according to park personnel,  but on weekdays in fall the 20-car parking lot often is empty.  Just how the outhouse here came to be built — came, in fact, to rank  10th nationwide among the National Park Service’s 1994 construction  priorities — is the story of a government construction program that has  had three problems:  Politicians set most of the Park Service’s construction priorities. Park  Service architects design their dreams. Cost rarely is an issue.  That’s not so surprising. Lawmakers don’t mind Washington’s splurging in  their districts. Park superintendents need lawmakers’ favor. And Park  Service designers and architects have no incentive to curb costs. They  work out of an office, the Denver Service Center, that depends for its  revenues on commissions that are a percentage of the cost of the  projects they design.  “They’re a bunch of prima donnas who just want to win awards for design  excellence,” grouses Jack Wilburn, former chief of maintenance at the  Gulf Islands National Seashore on the Florida and Mississippi coast.  “Cost doesn’t bother them; they always want to do something monumental  and unique.”  By way of cost comparison to the Raymondskill outhouse, Wilburn says he  designed and built permanent comfort stations on environmentally  sensitive islands for about $20,000. At the Delaware Water Gap park,  portable toilets in widespread use cost $500 a unit.  To build the Raymondskill outhouse, the Park Service spent money in  three different ways: planning and design, construction, and supervision  of the contractor. For planning and design, the bill was $102,614. For  supervision — by a Park Service engineer from Denver who lived on site  in Pennsylvania for 10 months — the bill was $81,220.  The Park Service and the outhouse builder disagree over actual  construction costs. The contractor, James Straka of Peckville, Pa., low  bidder among six, says building the outhouse cost him $262,000. But the  Park Service’s Denver-based manager of the job, Michael Giller,  estimates it cost “$150,000 to $200,000.”  If Giller is right, the total was between $333,000 and $383,000. If the  contractor is right, it cost more than $445,000. That doesn’t include  costs of the parking lot, new signs, an improved trail to the waterfall  and other outlays.  In a sense, all of this is no big deal. National park construction is  certifiably gorgeous; it’s won more presidential design awards than any  other federal agency. And it’s not that much money in terms of the  federal budget: The Park Service has spent $1.99 billion on construction  over the last 10 years.  But one consequence of the Park Service’s penchant for custom-designed  outhouses — and gates, fences and even benches — is a backlog in  maintenance and construction work that’s grown in the 1990s from $2  billion to nearly $5 billion, according to Park Service testimony before  Congress.  Rep. Joseph M. McDade, the No. 2 Republican on the powerful House  Appropriations Committee, is the patron of the Pennsylvania privy. The  Delaware Water Gap park lies within McDade’s district, and he insisted  on its high priority.  McDade, shown photos of the outhouse by a reporter, initially thought it  was a restored resort cottage. “That’s terrible,” he said, once  convinced it was an outhouse. “It’s a Taj Mahal! Why the hell did they  do that?” The lawmaker said he never realized an outhouse was part of  an appropriations package he pushed.  “All I do is send them the money,” McDade continued. “I don’t try and  micromanage the park.”  Since lawmakers, in effect, set most of the Park Service’s priorities  and decide how much to pay for them, Service Center architects are free  to concentrate on doing great work on sites of natural beauty.  In the case of comfort stations, a standardized design might make them  cheaper, but that’s not the way Park Service designers think. Explained  Tom Solon, the recreation area’s chief architect: “It has some merit  for the military or McDonald’s, but each national park has unique  needs.”  He believes fervently that the Park Service’s mission includes design  and construction work superior to most commercial work. “We’re going to  be criticized for high costs,” Solon said.  Solon’s attitude is his bosses’. In fact, all of the “dozens” of  comfort stations the Denver Service Center has produced in recent years  were custom-designed and custom-built, according to center director  Charles Clapper.  There are explanations for some high costs. The outhouse paint at  Raymondskill Falls, for example, is said to have remarkable durability.  The weed seed used there — of which less than a pound was bought — was  needed to restore the natural environment. The composting toilets solved  water-quality problems. Slate roofs last 75 years.  An on-site construction supervisor from Denver was needed, according to  resident architect Solon, because Solon was too busy on other projects.  Besides, that’s standard practice on projects that Denver designs. For  the same reasons, a landscape architect from Denver was used.  As for the $102,614 in design costs, two-thirds of that money went for  construction documents. Partly, that’s because Park Service architects  specify everything, right down to the size of the hole for the lock in  the parking lot gate.  In addition, all Park Service measurements for the Raymondskill outhouse  were metric. That was to oblige a federal mandate to promote the metric  system. After two such projects, Clapper recalled, Denver concluded that  metric documents discouraged potential bidders and went back to feet and  inches.  Contractor Straka, who says he lost money on the job, had no problem  with metric specifications, he said. The problem was specifications so  tight, he continued, and an on-site inspector so insistent on them, that  “I wanted to pin him to a tree with a pick.”  Inspector Stephen Herzog acknowledges the tension. “We were like  brothers,” he recalled in a telephone interview from his new assignment  at the Grand Canyon. “One minute we were at each other’s throat; next  minute, we were pulling together hard as we could to build that  sucker.”  To lawmakers, the cost of Park Service construction is no surprise. The  same 1994 Interior Appropriations conference report that paid for the  Pennsylvania privy cautioned that “the Park Service must begin looking  at construction projects as we would our own budgets, i.e., is there a  lower cost alternative?” Two years later, investigators for the General  Accounting Office, Congress’ watchdog arm, wrote that Park Service  construction projects were “plagued by nagging suspicions that design  solutions are not achieved at minimum cost.”  To the extent Congress has pressed for reform, it’s pressed Park Service  headquarters in Washington to change its policies.  Typically that job has fallen to Deborah Weatherly, the House Interior  Appropriations subcommittee’s top staffer. When

… read more »

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it.

In 1978, I was a diver on the Weeks Island to Convent, LA, 54" strategic salt  dome oil reserve project.  They had a toilet called a "Destroilet" which used electricity and natural gas to vaporize everything.  We  It was all stainless steel, and made space ship noises once you left the thing  and closed the door.  With R&D, probably $500k.  Of course, all the animals  could still shit where they pleased.  I thought a regular Porta-potty would  have been sufficient.   Steve, the DsrtTravlr  

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What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?               ~                  Brett J. Nodello                ~                       ~  http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/Trails/1039/  ~           – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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Question:

Re Reactors Ontario Hydro has 10 or 12 operating Nukes. They are extremly expensive, the last set of 4 reactors of about 1GW each ended up costing in excess of $14 Billion. That is a large sum. The result is that Ontario Hydro is now in an unfavourable debt position. During a study regarding the plants, they found them considerablly more expensive than conventional plants in operation as well. A very substantial part of the additional cost is the burocracy required to make sure a nuke is safe and secure. Not an area where cutting corners is the thing to do. Making sure that for example a particular piece of tubing is precisely the right alloy and wall thickness with zero tolerance of error for every repair is very costly. Paul Neelands says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of things about IFRs:  the plutonium accounting is hard to do, and you have to worry about more than just people making bombs out of the stuff.  It is somewhat toxic, and you would be moving tonnes of the stuff around the country in an IFR economy.  The second thing is that most IFRs use liquid sodium coollant.  This is nasty stuff, and the long-term reliability of the systems is a valid concern.  The safety issue is not a big deal here, but the economic issue is:  reactors are expensive, and if they are not sufficiently reliable they will be uneconomic. Thanks.   You took a little of the wind out of my enthusiasm and this is a good thing… I wanted to get all sides of this issue. <snip Sincerely, Josh

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Re Reactors Ontario Hydro has 10 or 12 operating Nukes. They are extremly expensive, the last set of 4 reactors of about 1GW each ended up costing in excess of $14 Billion. That is a large sum. The result is that Ontario Hydro is now in an unfavourable debt position. During a study regarding the plants, they found them considerablly more expensive than conventional plants in operation as well. A very substantial part of the additional cost is the burocracy required to make sure a nuke is safe and secure. Not an area where cutting corners is the thing to do. Making sure that for example a particular piece of tubing is precisely the right alloy and wall thickness with zero tolerance of error for every repair is very costly. Paul Neelands

Here in Illinois, Commonwealth Edison is in pretty much the same position.  They have formed a holding company (Unicom) and it is my impression that the whole nuclear debacle has proven to be such an awful decision, financially, logistically and otherwise,  that there is some serious chance that bankruptcy may someday loom. However, that is why I am interested in IFR’s. First, I think the current nuclear-cost predicament was inevitable. "Not-yet-ready-for-prime-time" doesn’t even begin to describe nuclear of the 50’s-80’s and the technology is still today probably half-baked in some ways. Some of the costs and difficulties are related to the amount and danger of the waste generated, and the national security concerns relating to maintaining it. The IFR concept is useful to consider if only as a technology that someday may aid in waste disposal.  If a material is dangerous enough to be considered dangerous waste, then it has enough energy left to consider continuing to burn it. Second, much of the IFR research was carried out by Argonne here in Illinois. As a national reasearch lab, the only further funding allocated for this project has been funding for its resolution and shut-down. It would made have sense to consider, I think, the building of one IFR plant here in Illinois if such a plant would have aided in shutting down some of the other more costly plants and if it would have provided a permanent solution to Illinois’ nuke waste problem.  Don’t know that it would have, given the realities of nuke industry cost-overruns on new plants, but I’ve wondered. Josh (reply posted to Usenet, w/out author’s info since I’m not sure why the original reply doesn’t show up on my usenet screen at this time, but I wanted to use the paragraph as a way to publicly address a couple of points.).

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