Question:

I’m currently studying for an accounting degree.  Although having my degree in this field isn’t essential to be allowed to sit certification exams, it does redeem itself through excemptions from certain professional papers.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure what is in the certificate programs and you can maybe "sit" for the exam but I think you need a college degree to become a CPA in most states, I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees?

I would be interested in knowing what states offer a CPA license to a person with no degree. I thought the trend was toward more education – not less. Jim Hudspeth

Response:

My recollection is that you need a certain number of hours in accounting and business law in order to sit for the exam. Persons might already have a college degree but might need the specific coursework for the exam. I had to take additional courses after I got my degree in order to sit for the exam.  Those accounting certificate programs you mentioned sound like they would do that.  I think the value of those programs is that  the coursework should allow you to sit for the exam rather than getting a "certificate". Do you already have a degree? Since I think you need a college degree for the CPA, you might consider an accounting degree with the right number of hours in accounting and business law in order to sit for the exam if you do not already have a degree. But if you have a degree already, as long as you take the hours needed for the CPA exam (maybe with that accounting certificate program) and then get a CPA, I would think the value of another degree would be limited, even if it is an accounting degree. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m currently studying for an accounting degree.  Although having my degree in this field isn’t essential to be allowed to sit certification exams, it does redeem itself through excemptions from certain professional papers. I’m not sure what is in the certificate programs and you can maybe "sit" for the exam but I think you need a college degree to become a CPA in most states, I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

As an employer, I look first at a degree and then for the CPA.  If you’re going to spend the time in school and going to class, you might as well have a degree to go with it. I can also tell you from personal experience that while you can make it without a CPA for a long time, eventually you will start running into a glass ceiling and reduced opportunities by not having a CPA. KC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m currently studying for an accounting degree.  Although having my degree in this field isn’t essential to be allowed to sit certification exams, it does redeem itself through excemptions from certain professional papers. I’m not sure what is in the certificate programs and you can maybe "sit" for the exam but I think you need a college degree to become a CPA in most states, I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Wow that was a lot of excellent information.  I am glad you posted this reply.  You may have just saved me a year or two of school by me going this route.  I myself already have a college degree and am only interested in the CPA certificate. Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kirin, do you already have a college degree ? What is it in ? Accounting certificate programs have been started up at several schools around the country. I believe most of them are people who already have a college degree in another field and who are looking for a career change into the field of accounting. You don’t have to major in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. You could major in just about anything. But you MUST have a certain amount of courses in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. A certificate program, that is set up to satisfy the CPA requirements, will give you coursework that you need to sit for the CPA exam. What certificate programs basically are ( and they are a good idea ), is a course of study that provides all the ACCOUNTING courses that a normal accounting major would have to take LESS everything else that an accounting degree normally includes. For someone going back to school to go into accounting for the purpose of becoming a CPA ( assuming of course the person already has a college degree in something else ), a certificate makes the most sense. And since becoming a CPA means you need 150 credit hours, adding the credits from a certificate program to a college degree already earned should put the person over the 150 credit mark. And completing a certificate program will take a lot less time than a 4-year degree. A lot less hassle too. I believe most accounting certificate programs also don’t make students take useless classes that will never be used in an accounting career. Calculus being one of them. I know of a school that makes every single business major ( 4 year degree programs ) take calculus as a requirement for graduation. Never mind the fact that an accountant will NEVER use what is taught in a calculus class. I even talked to one of the accounting professors at this school once and questioned him as to WHY accounting majors must take and pass a calculus class. He told me straight out that students would NEVER use it in an accounting job. " So why then are they required to take it " I asked him. " Because we like our students to have a good mathematical background " he told me. On closer inspection though, I figured out why ALL business majors in the school were forced to take a calculus class. This college had a very big and bloated math department made up of many professors. Calculus was made a requirement for business majors to help justify the need for this math department and give these professors something to do. Lots of college DEGREE programs are actually set up that way. Not so much for the benefit of what the student NEEDS to know, but for the benefit of the faculty. So if you already have a college degree in something else, then just go for the accounting certificate. Don’t worry about going back and getting an accounting degree. Once you have all the accounting courses you need for the CPA exam, you are then just as good as an accounting degree holder. And if an employer doesn’t realize this, they are not worth working for. So, I’d vote for the certificate. One last piece of advice. Can you link us to the actual accounting certificate program that you’re considering. I’d like to check it over. And don’t be afraid to take a few other courses from the college that you think will be helpful to you even if these courses aren’t required by your particular certificate program. An introductory finance course would be a course to take. If they offer business writing you might want to check that out as well. And if there are accounting courses offered by the college that are NOT required by your accounting certificate program, you might want to take those anyway. For instance, what should you do if corporate income tax, non-profit accounting, or advanced federal income tax courses are NOT require by your certificate program but they are still offered by the college ? My advice is to take them anyway. And if you are lucky enough to be at a college that offers a course where students get to work with accounting programs like QUICKBOOKS, and PEACHTREE, then take that course whether it’s required by your certificate program or not. That course will be very useful to you. I hope this advice was useful to you. I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

I’m glad I could be of assistance, Paul. Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow that was a lot of excellent information.  I am glad you posted this reply.  You may have just saved me a year or two of school by me going this route.  I myself already have a college degree and am only interested in the CPA certificate. Greg Kirin, do you already have a college degree ? What is it in ? Accounting certificate programs have been started up at several schools around the country. I believe most of them are people who already have a college degree in another field and who are looking for a career change into the field of accounting. You don’t have to major in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. You could major in just about anything. But you MUST have a certain amount of courses in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. A certificate program, that is set up to satisfy the CPA requirements, will give you coursework that you need to sit for the CPA exam. What certificate programs basically are ( and they are a good idea ), is a course of study that provides all the ACCOUNTING courses that a normal accounting major would have to take LESS everything else that an accounting degree normally includes. For someone going back to school to go into accounting for the purpose of becoming a CPA ( assuming of course the person already has a college degree in something else ), a certificate makes the most sense. And since becoming a CPA means you need 150 credit hours, adding the credits from a certificate program to a college degree already earned should put the person over the 150 credit mark. And completing a certificate program will take a lot less time than a 4-year degree. A lot less hassle too. I believe most accounting certificate programs also don’t make students take useless classes that will never be used in an accounting career. Calculus being one of them. I know of a school that makes every single business major ( 4 year degree programs ) take calculus as a requirement for graduation. Never mind the fact that an accountant will NEVER use what is taught in a calculus class. I even talked to one of the accounting professors at this school once and questioned him as to WHY accounting majors must take and pass a calculus class. He told me straight out that students would NEVER use it in an accounting job. " So why then are they required to take it " I asked him. " Because we like our students to have a good mathematical background " he told me. On closer inspection though, I figured out why ALL business majors in the school were forced to take a calculus class. This college had a very big and bloated math department made up of many professors. Calculus was made a requirement for business majors to help justify the need for this math department and give these professors something to do. Lots of college DEGREE programs are actually set up that way. Not so much for the benefit of what the student NEEDS to know, but for the benefit of the faculty. So if you already have a college degree in something else, then just go for the accounting certificate. Don’t worry about going back and getting an accounting degree. Once you have all the accounting courses you need for the CPA exam, you are then just as good as an accounting degree holder. And if an employer doesn’t realize this, they are not worth working for. So, I’d vote for the certificate. One last piece of advice. Can you link us to the actual accounting certificate program that you’re considering. I’d like to check it over. And don’t be afraid to take a few other courses from the college that you think will be helpful to you even if these courses aren’t required by your particular certificate program. An introductory finance course would be a course to take. If they offer business writing you might want to check that out as well. And if there are accounting courses offered by the college that are NOT required by your accounting certificate program, you might want to take those anyway. For instance, what should you do if corporate income tax, non-profit accounting, or advanced federal income tax courses are NOT require by your certificate program but they are still offered by the college ? My advice is to take them anyway. And if you are lucky enough to be at a college that offers a course where students get to work with accounting programs like QUICKBOOKS, and PEACHTREE, then take that course whether it’s required by your certificate program or not. That course will be very useful to you. I hope this advice was useful to you. I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

Hi there, Kirin. You have degrees in Political Science and English Literature and now are looking into business-type education such as an accounting certificate or an MBA ? You sound like a versatile and well-rounded person. Lots of people I’ve known who are schooled in the humanities often either have no interest in business or have little ability in business-related subjects. And lots of business-types seem to be just the opposite. So good for you in this regard. Your degrees in Political Science and English literature, while not the most marketable degrees in the world, may still end up providing some value to you even after you get some business training. The ability to read and write properly is a valuable one in any profession. I’m sure that you did plenty of reading and writing when you studied Poly Sci and English lit. And of course, working for the government is no longer seen as such a bad thing in today’s economy, with so many layoffs, and so little job security. And individual with a good understanding of both politics and business can be a real asset in any job, but especially a government job. Why did you dislike law school, if you don’t mind me asking ? And how do you like doing temp work ? In today’s economy, it seems that temp jobs are becoming more popular each day. I took a look last evening at the accounting certificate programs that are offered by the schools you mentioned. One of the schools ( SF state I think ), has an Internal Auditor certificate but I didn’t see a general accounting certificate at that school. Another bit of advice I’ll give you is on getting accounting experience and hopefully an eventual job. It’s very important that you do not simply work towards the accounting certificate and then go look for an accounting job somewhere. That doesn’t work too well. One of the great misconceptions about modern accounting programs is that their graduates are trained so that they can go right into a job situation and be instantly useful to an employer. But most accounting programs spend most of their time teaching accounting THEORY, while spending very little time letting students develop PRACTICAL ACCOUNTING SKILLS that will be useful to them the first day on a job. In one sense, there is nothing wrong with focusing heavily on accounting theory, since that will form an important foundation of knowledge for the student. But most EMPLOYERS these days are interested in someone who can come right in and begin adding value and contributing from DAY ONE in an accounting job. You should set up your mindset to realize that there are a number of employers out there who are going to expect you to hit the ground running from the first day on the job. And this isn’t just true of the accounting field. It’s true of many fields in today’s job market. My advice to you is to do multiple accounting internships before seeking that first real accounting job. And unlike many other fields, quite a few accounting internships are paying ones. Years ago, there were more companies that tried to hire the " right person " ( not just academic background but character, personality, etc ), and then would invest in this person by seeing to it that they got good training and were given jobs and tasks with increasing responsibility as time went on. In other words, many more businesses years ago made the effort at " developing " a new hire. Today, things are different. Businesses still want a new employee trained and developed. It’s just that they expect that employee to be trained and developed when they START the job. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule. But most businesses want an employee who is going to add value right away. So I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to get some accounting experience under your belt before you apply for that first real accounting job. In addition to internships, another good way I see of getting this experience is by doing something similar to a woman who posts here sometimes. This woman works for an individual accountant while she is still going to school to finish her accounting education. This woman has told us she has found an accountant who is more than understanding of her limited experience that she has and who is allowing her to not only work with him, but learn practical skills with him as she goes along. In other words, this accountant is a MENTOR to her, and her experience that she described here sounds very similar to a kind of APPRENTICESHIP. An APPRENTICESHIP, in most simplified terms, is where an inexperienced person who wants to get into a field works alongside a master craftsman for a period of time. I strongly believe that this is truly the best way to learn a job. Yet, the apprenticeship-style of learning is not very common any more in American education. So in addition to the internship way of getting experience, if you can find an individual accountant that you can work under, and who is understanding of your limited level of accounting background ( however " limited " your accounting coursework is by that time ), then jump at the opportunity to work with someone like this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, Many thanks for your thorough reply. I do have a degree in Political Science and English Literature.  I went to law school after I graduated, but hated it and decided to drop out.  Since that time, I briefly worked as a law clerk, writing legal briefs, found my way into marketing during the dot com boom, and now find myself working temp jobs.  Initially, I planned on getting into an MBA program, but am instead looking into entering an accounting certificate program and then, perhaps, get an MBA. The certificate programs I’ve been looking into are at San Diego State and San Francisco State.  I don’t have a link right now, but will try to get one up. Thanks again for your valuable input. Kirin Kirin, do you already have a college degree ? What is it in ? Accounting certificate programs have been started up at several schools around the country. I believe most of them are people who already have a college degree in another field and who are looking for a career change into the field of accounting. You don’t have to major in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. You could major in just about anything. But you MUST have a certain amount of courses in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. A certificate program, that is set up to satisfy the CPA requirements, will give you coursework that you need to sit for the CPA exam. What certificate programs basically are ( and they are a good idea ), is a course of study that provides all the ACCOUNTING courses that a normal accounting major would have to take LESS everything else that an accounting degree normally includes. For someone going back to school to go into accounting for the purpose of becoming a CPA ( assuming of course the person already has a college degree in something else ), a certificate makes the most sense. And since becoming a CPA means you need 150 credit hours, adding the credits from a certificate program to a college degree already earned should put the person over the 150 credit mark. And completing a certificate program will take a lot less time than a 4-year degree. A lot less hassle too. I believe most accounting certificate programs also don’t make students take useless classes that will never be used in an accounting career. Calculus being one of them. I know of a school that makes every single business major ( 4 year degree programs ) take calculus as a requirement for graduation. Never mind the fact that an accountant will NEVER use what is taught in a calculus class. I even talked to one of the accounting professors at this school once and questioned him as to WHY accounting majors must take and pass a calculus class. He told me straight out that students would NEVER use it in an accounting job. " So why then are they required to take it " I asked him. " Because we like our students to have a good mathematical background " he told me. On closer inspection though, I figured out why ALL business majors in the school were forced to take a calculus class. This college had a very big and bloated math department made up of many professors. Calculus was made a requirement for business majors to help justify the need for this math department and give these professors something to do. Lots of college DEGREE programs are actually set up that way. Not so much for the benefit of what the student NEEDS to know, but for the benefit of the faculty. So if you already have a college degree in something else, then just go for the accounting certificate. Don’t worry about going back and getting an accounting degree. Once you have all the accounting courses you need for the CPA exam, you are then just as good as an accounting degree holder. And if an employer doesn’t realize this, they are not worth working for. So, I’d vote for the certificate. One last piece of advice. Can you link us to the actual accounting certificate program that you’re considering. I’d like to check it over. And don’t be afraid to take a few other courses from the college that you think will be helpful to you even if these courses aren’t required by your particular certificate program. An introductory finance course would be a course to take. If they offer business writing you might want to check that out as well. And if there are accounting courses offered

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Response:

Four year degree?  Some of them require a masters degree, these days!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure what is in the certificate programs and you can maybe "sit" for the exam but I think you need a college degree to become a CPA in most states, I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

Mike, Many thanks for your thorough reply. I do have a degree in Political Science and English Literature.  I went to law school after I graduated, but hated it and decided to drop out.  Since that time, I briefly worked as a law clerk, writing legal briefs, found my way into marketing during the dot com boom, and now find myself working temp jobs.  Initially, I planned on getting into an MBA program, but am instead looking into entering an accounting certificate program and then, perhaps, get an MBA. The certificate programs I’ve been looking into are at San Diego State and San Francisco State.  I don’t have a link right now, but will try to get one up. Thanks again for your valuable input. Kirin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kirin, do you already have a college degree ? What is it in ? Accounting certificate programs have been started up at several schools around the country. I believe most of them are people who already have a college degree in another field and who are looking for a career change into the field of accounting. You don’t have to major in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. You could major in just about anything. But you MUST have a certain amount of courses in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. A certificate program, that is set up to satisfy the CPA requirements, will give you coursework that you need to sit for the CPA exam. What certificate programs basically are ( and they are a good idea ), is a course of study that provides all the ACCOUNTING courses that a normal accounting major would have to take LESS everything else that an accounting degree normally includes. For someone going back to school to go into accounting for the purpose of becoming a CPA ( assuming of course the person already has a college degree in something else ), a certificate makes the most sense. And since becoming a CPA means you need 150 credit hours, adding the credits from a certificate program to a college degree already earned should put the person over the 150 credit mark. And completing a certificate program will take a lot less time than a 4-year degree. A lot less hassle too. I believe most accounting certificate programs also don’t make students take useless classes that will never be used in an accounting career. Calculus being one of them. I know of a school that makes every single business major ( 4 year degree programs ) take calculus as a requirement for graduation. Never mind the fact that an accountant will NEVER use what is taught in a calculus class. I even talked to one of the accounting professors at this school once and questioned him as to WHY accounting majors must take and pass a calculus class. He told me straight out that students would NEVER use it in an accounting job. " So why then are they required to take it " I asked him. " Because we like our students to have a good mathematical background " he told me. On closer inspection though, I figured out why ALL business majors in the school were forced to take a calculus class. This college had a very big and bloated math department made up of many professors. Calculus was made a requirement for business majors to help justify the need for this math department and give these professors something to do. Lots of college DEGREE programs are actually set up that way. Not so much for the benefit of what the student NEEDS to know, but for the benefit of the faculty. So if you already have a college degree in something else, then just go for the accounting certificate. Don’t worry about going back and getting an accounting degree. Once you have all the accounting courses you need for the CPA exam, you are then just as good as an accounting degree holder. And if an employer doesn’t realize this, they are not worth working for. So, I’d vote for the certificate. One last piece of advice. Can you link us to the actual accounting certificate program that you’re considering. I’d like to check it over. And don’t be afraid to take a few other courses from the college that you think will be helpful to you even if these courses aren’t required by your particular certificate program. An introductory finance course would be a course to take. If they offer business writing you might want to check that out as well. And if there are accounting courses offered by the college that are NOT required by your accounting certificate program, you might want to take those anyway. For instance, what should you do if corporate income tax, non-profit accounting, or advanced federal income tax courses are NOT require by your certificate program but they are still offered by the college ? My advice is to take them anyway. And if you are lucky enough to be at a college that offers a course where students get to work with accounting programs like QUICKBOOKS, and PEACHTREE, then take that course whether it’s required by your certificate program or not. That course will be very useful to you. I hope this advice was useful to you.   I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

I’m not sure what is in the certificate programs and you can maybe "sit" for the exam but I think you need a college degree to become a CPA in most states, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

Kirin, do you already have a college degree ? What is it in ? Accounting certificate programs have been started up at several schools around the country. I believe most of them are people who already have a college degree in another field and who are looking for a career change into the field of accounting. You don’t have to major in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. You could major in just about anything. But you MUST have a certain amount of courses in accounting to sit for the CPA exam. A certificate program, that is set up to satisfy the CPA requirements, will give you coursework that you need to sit for the CPA exam. What certificate programs basically are ( and they are a good idea ), is a course of study that provides all the ACCOUNTING courses that a normal accounting major would have to take LESS everything else that an accounting degree normally includes. For someone going back to school to go into accounting for the purpose of becoming a CPA ( assuming of course the person already has a college degree in something else ), a certificate makes the most sense. And since becoming a CPA means you need 150 credit hours, adding the credits from a certificate program to a college degree already earned should put the person over the 150 credit mark. And completing a certificate program will take a lot less time than a 4-year degree. A lot less hassle too. I believe most accounting certificate programs also don’t make students take useless classes that will never be used in an accounting career. Calculus being one of them. I know of a school that makes every single business major ( 4 year degree programs ) take calculus as a requirement for graduation. Never mind the fact that an accountant will NEVER use what is taught in a calculus class. I even talked to one of the accounting professors at this school once and questioned him as to WHY accounting majors must take and pass a calculus class. He told me straight out that students would NEVER use it in an accounting job. " So why then are they required to take it " I asked him. " Because we like our students to have a good mathematical background " he told me. On closer inspection though, I figured out why ALL business majors in the school were forced to take a calculus class. This college had a very big and bloated math department made up of many professors. Calculus was made a requirement for business majors to help justify the need for this math department and give these professors something to do. Lots of college DEGREE programs are actually set up that way. Not so much for the benefit of what the student NEEDS to know, but for the benefit of the faculty. So if you already have a college degree in something else, then just go for the accounting certificate. Don’t worry about going back and getting an accounting degree. Once you have all the accounting courses you need for the CPA exam, you are then just as good as an accounting degree holder. And if an employer doesn’t realize this, they are not worth working for. So, I’d vote for the certificate. One last piece of advice. Can you link us to the actual accounting certificate program that you’re considering. I’d like to check it over. And don’t be afraid to take a few other courses from the college that you think will be helpful to you even if these courses aren’t required by your particular certificate program. An introductory finance course would be a course to take. If they offer business writing you might want to check that out as well. And if there are accounting courses offered by the college that are NOT required by your accounting certificate program, you might want to take those anyway. For instance, what should you do if corporate income tax, non-profit accounting, or advanced federal income tax courses are NOT require by your certificate program but they are still offered by the college ? My advice is to take them anyway. And if you are lucky enough to be at a college that offers a course where students get to work with accounting programs like QUICKBOOKS, and PEACHTREE, then take that course whether it’s required by your certificate program or not. That course will be very useful to you. I hope this advice was useful to you.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been looking into going back to school to get an accounting degree and ultimately get my CPA license.  However, I’ve noticed that many universities are offering accounting certificate programs which they say will allow you to sit for the CPA exam. My question is, is it better to pursue a degree, or is an accounting certification program adequate?  Do potential employers look more favorably on degrees? Thanks. Kirin

Response:

Question:

Why can’t Ms. Zuckerman speak for herself.  Why does she always have to go through rosie?  Why will neither either of the them present the real data for the cancer studies they keep mentioning? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear  friends,  

Question:

There are no particular standards specific to the hotel industry, however, FRS15 tangible fixed assets is relevant for the accounting of the actual hotels on the balance sheet and the depreciation charge, which has changed for years ending after 31 march 2000 Get an accounting standards book! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I work for a mojor Hotel chain in the accounting department, perhaos I can help.  What do you need to know? I am a student in Accounting and lately I was assigned to do some research for the hotel industry. Is anyone aware of accounting standards/rules that are peculiar to the hotel industry?  I could like to find some information on this but aren’t sure where I could start the research. Any input will be appreciated! Thanks, HelloMiMi Before you buy.

Response:

I am a student in Accounting and lately I was assigned to do some research for the hotel industry. Is anyone aware of accounting standards/rules that are peculiar to the hotel industry?  I could like to find some information on this but aren’t sure where I could start the research. Any input will be appreciated! Thanks, HelloMiMi Before you buy.

Response:

I work for a mojor Hotel chain in the accounting department, perhaos I can help.  What do you need to know? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a student in Accounting and lately I was assigned to do some research for the hotel industry. Is anyone aware of accounting standards/rules that are peculiar to the hotel industry?  I could like to find some information on this but aren’t sure where I could start the research. Any input will be appreciated! Thanks, HelloMiMi Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

I am very new to business.  How do you handle foreign currencies in QuickBooks?  I live in Canada and must do my bookkeeping in Canadian dollars.  USA customers pay in US dollars and they would likely want an invoice and/or receipt in US dollars.  But I need to keep the books in Canadian dollars and thus my invoices are in Canadian dollars.  I see no way P. Weisberg

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wrote in alt.accounting: I am very new to business.  How do you handle foreign currencies in QuickBooks?  I live in Canada and must do my bookkeeping in Canadian dollars.  USA customers pay in US dollars and they would likely want an invoice and/or receipt in US dollars.  But I need to keep the books in Canadian dollars and thus my invoices are in Canadian dollars.  I see no way P. Weisberg

I like QB very much, but it does not have the multi-currency accounting of MYOB and others. You can keep some accounts in US dollars and make monthly entries to zero them and transfer amounts to Canadian dollars in QB, but I would start with a multi-currency product.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.              World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester 450+ page QB book/free updates $10 QB add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/    Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

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We have the same problem (we’re in Canada, too).  I think that QuickBooks 2000 may have this feature – it’s currently in beta test.  You may be able to get on the beta by filling out a form on their web site. Paul Grunau

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am very new to business.  How do you handle foreign currencies in QuickBooks?  I live in Canada and must do my bookkeeping in Canadian dollars.  USA customers pay in US dollars and they would likely want an invoice and/or receipt in US dollars.  But I need to keep the books in Canadian dollars and thus my invoices are in Canadian dollars.  I see no way P. Weisberg

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Question:

Hello Everyone I am a student at a South African University and I’m currently writing a thesis on an approach to auditing the companies that are trading over the internet (either totally or as a substantial part of their operations). I am specifically looking at: – Changes to the standard audit approach – Any additional/proposed additional disclosure (including accounting statements) required for the "E-Commerce" companies as opposed to companies not involved in electonic commerce -Any changes in the audit risk -Additional work that needs to be performed by the auditors, for example, the evaluation of security of a site. I am interested in the changes to the audit approach in the annual (or interim) financial audits, not specific IT-related audits. So far I have found very little information on the topic and I would really appreciate any help as to where I can find some information, especially from anyone who has experience/knowledge in auditing internet companies. Thanks in advance Greg Rymon-Lipinski University of the Witwatersrand

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Greg, There is no right or wrong answer to your question. In general, auditor has a responsibility to plan and perform the audit in order to obtain reasonable assurance as to whether the financial report is free of material misstatements, whether caused by fraud or error, including errors caused by the computers and security problem for e-commerce. It is understandable that because of the inherent risk, the auditor is unlikely to be able to provide assurance that all the information given is true. Nevertheless, the auditor may be able to make observations on the entity’s trading activities and its management that come to the auditor’s attention during the normal course of the audit. The auditor should: 1) obtain an understanding of the acct. and internal control systems sufficient to plan the audit and develop an effective audit approach. 2) confirm the knowledge of the entity’s business by inquiry of management about the dependence of the entity’s systems and activities on third parties, for example, web server in other countries, customers, suppliers, where failure of the third-party systems will have a direct impact on the measurement or disclosure of amount in the financial report. If the auditor consider the risk is significant, the auditor should: 1) further discussion with management 2) obtain information about management such as management representation, memo and minute A qualified report or adverse opinion may be required where there is a disagreement with management about the the disclosure in the financial report or where there is inadequate disclosure of matter that the auditor considers material in relation to the financial report. A disclaimer of opinion may be required for limitation on scope where necessary evidence that does, did or should exist in relation to the operation of the business is not available to the auditor. BTW, during the audit, auditors may wish to offer their specialist skills to help management to address the technical computing issues, such as Y2K. However, such services should be viewed as separate from those offered in their capacity as auditor. To ensure no misunderstanding, a separate engagement letter should be prepared to clarify the responsibilities of each party. Alvin

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Question:

I couldn’t justify the economics of owning a plane 100% because I doubt I would fly it more than a few times a month.

One of the beauties of living in this country is that I don’t have to justify owning my aircraft. I want it, I’ve figured out a legal way to pay for it (I don’t call it "afford"), and that’s all I need. George Patterson,  N3162Q. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -Marc (LWM) ____

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On my 182 Rg the annual is $2000-3000.  Insurance is another $2000/yr, maintenance adds about $50/hr.  Fuel is 16 gals/hr.  Hangar is $200/mo. And that assuming I don’t buy any other toys for the plane.

Jerry, That’s pretty high fuel consumption.  If you actually are flying a 182RG that is using that much fuel, you might want to install a JPI or GEM instrument to help with your leaning technique.  That sounds awfully rich to me! Mickey Bonanza N1744G B

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I couldn’t justify the economics of owning a plane 100% because I doubt I would fly it more than a few times a month. One of the beauties of living in this country is that I don’t have to justify owning my aircraft. I want it, I’ve figured out a legal way to pay for it (I don’t call it "afford"), and that’s all I need. George Patterson,  N3162Q.

I mean "justify" to myself, not to someone else. Tying up bunches of money in something I would only use a few times a month seems to me like an inefficient use of capital, that’s all. If I thought that the increases in used aircraft prices that has occurred over the past decade would continue into the future at this pace then I might also be able to justify it on the grounds that my airplane would be an appreciating asset. I expect prices to continue upward in the short run, but I don’t think they can be sustained in the long run. BTW, what country do you live in? -Marc _____

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I’m in the early stages of thinking about buying an airplane, and I have the same questions you do. Are airplane owners just rich or is the airplane the only possession they own?

I can assure you, we aren’t all rich… It’s a bit of a stretch to say the airplane is the only thing I own, but most families making a bit over the median income could swing a small airplane IF THAT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO THEM. That’s the key. Airplanes are similar in cost to new sports car, new boat, RV, and are way cheaper than a vacation home. Many airplanes are cheaper than all of those things that we don’t necessarily conclude "Oh, that guy MUST be loaded, since he has a fishing boat [or sports car, or RV]." I couldn’t justify the economics of owning a plane 100% because I doubt I would fly it more than a few times a month.

Why not just rent then? The primary reason I bought was to permit myself to fly often, and to take "real" trips with the airplane (difficult to do with a lot of rental situations). The secondary reason was to permit myself to fly with 15 minutes notice, as my schedule is difficult to predict long enough in advance to reserve a rental, even for an hour of touch-n-goes. If you’re just buzzing around the area, eating $100 hamburgers, and taking day trips with it, renting airplanes is QUITE a good deal. Buying was absolutely the right thing for me, but it sounds like it might not be for you. Join a club, or an existing partnership, fly and learn as much as you can about ownership before you decide to take that plunge (or even start your own partnership). No one important will look down on you because you showed up in a rented airplane. —Jim

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[snip..] I mean "justify" to myself, not to someone else. Tying up bunches of money in something I would only use a few times a month seems to me like an inefficient use of capital, that’s all.

And for some value of "inefficient", it is.  But I suspect most of us on the group that own (or want to) do so not because we’ve sat down with our accountants and worked the numbers, but because we *want* to and we’re quite possibly willing to do without something else. To me, efficient use of capital means being able to "afford" the airplane you want . Dave Lyjak

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I couldn’t justify the economics of owning a plane 100% because I doubt I would fly it more than a few times a month. Why not just rent then? The primary reason I bought was to permit myself to fly often, and to take "real" trips with the airplane (difficult to do with a lot of rental situations). The secondary reason was to permit myself to fly with 15 minutes notice, as my schedule is difficult to predict long enough in advance to reserve a rental, even for an hour of touch-n-goes.

Same reasons here. I want to be able to go when I want and sometimes not come back right away. Also, pride of ownership and perhaps increased safety and performance that comes from being familiar with your own particular aircraft. Partnership seems like a good compromise allowing greater flexibility compared to renting but less capital investment compared to full ownership. I think I’d enjoy having other people involved as well. -Marc L. (LWM)

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[snip..] I mean "justify" to myself, not to someone else. Tying up bunches of money in something I would only use a few times a month seems to me like an inefficient use of capital, that’s all. And for some value of "inefficient", it is.  But I suspect most of us on the group that own (or want to) do so not because we’ve sat down with our accountants and worked the numbers, but because we *want* to and we’re quite possibly willing to do without something else.

You’re right. I guess if I truly wanted to use my capital efficiently I’d quit flying. Actually my first inspiration to look into flying was economic. My wife lives a couple hundered miles away for her job, and when I added up the commercial plane fare to travel each weekend I said to myself, "at this rate I could probably fly myself", so I decided I would. You probably already know the punchline. After getting started on lessons and looking into everything I found out that in reality flying myself is probably more expensive, slower, riskier, and half the time I’m not going to go anyway because of the weather. Oh well, too late now….. -Marc

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  That seems like awfully expensive operating costs.  I’ve got a 182 fixed gear.  I fly 200 hours per year.  Maintenence is about $5 per hour including oil changes but not including the annual.  Annuals run about $500.  I’m lucky there, I’ve got an A&P friend and we do most of the work.  16 gal/hr!?  Ouch, you must have put in a bigger engine.  I would have to have a leaking tank to get 16/hr. I figure 11/hr cruise above 7500. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it! Buying a plane is like buying any other luxury toy.  It’s just like buying a boat, RV, second home, etc. Don’t every try to "make the numbers work", or justify it based on time saved, etc. I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE. On my 182 Rg the annual is $2000-3000.  Insurance is another $2000/yr, maintenance adds about $50/hr.  Fuel is 16 gals/hr.  Hangar is $200/mo. And that assuming I don’t buy any other toys for the plane. I sure would appreciate some understanding on how you all do it! Maybe it can help me figure how I could do it. Thanks! Owning a plane and flying is a hobby.  You probably have neighbors that own motorcycles, RVs, restored cars, motorhomes, boats, etc.  You get the plane the same way they do.  You sacrifice other things because you have decided to spend on the plane.

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I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it! I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE. I sure would appreciate some understanding on how you all do it! Maybe it can help me figure how I could do it. Thanks!

I’m in the early stages of thinking about buying an airplane, and I have the same questions you do. Are airplane owners just rich or is the airplane the only possession they own? I intend to join or start a partnership. Spread the acquisition cost, spread the risk, and hopefully enjoy learning about flying with a few other like-minded people. Even if I had the money I think I’d still like to go this route in the beginning. I couldn’t justify the economics of owning a plane 100% because I doubt I would fly it more than a few times a month. -Marc (LWM) ____

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I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it!

I don’t take cruises or expensive vacations I don’t have children (I’m not married) I don’t buy a new car every year (I hope my car will survive beyond 8 years). I bought a less expensive house. I don’t eat out except when on business trips I don’t drink. I don’t allocate a large portion of my budget to entertainment (excluding flying). I work on my own airplane under the supervision of my IA. The money I use for flying comes off the top rather than what is leftover at the end of the month.  Works for me, doesn’t work for everyone. Other money saving ideas: Partnerships Buying a less expensive aircraft ($100,000 is a lot of plane – I wish I could afford a $100,000 C182) Autogas rather than 80/87 or 100LL Good luck — Bob (I think people can figure out how to email me…) (replace ihatessppaamm with my name (rnoel) and hw1 with mediaone)

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I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it!

I can’t speak for everyone, but I set a goal of owning an airplane over 10 years ago.  I saved money for 6 years and accumulated $20k in the airplane fund.  I bought a Grumman Cheetah for $18k in 1993 – full IFR and I did my instrument rating in it. I had some business successes and sold the Cheetah for a nice profit – essentially flying it for 3 years for free.  I sold a few things I had accumulated around the same time and had $50k in the airplane fund.  I bought the P35 that I fly now in 1996 for less than $50k. Now, according to Vref, this airplane is worth $80k after a recent overhaul and some avionics enhancements. It’s like money in the bank – at least that’s what I tell myself. I don’t make a hell of a lot of money, a lot of it goes into flying. You’ve just got to set yourself a REALISTIC goal – a $100k airplane is NOT in my future unless my airplane appreciates to  that level.  I’d suggest you look at older 182’s and see what you CAN afford. Once you’ve set a goal, formulate a plan to get there and execute it.  It is actually fairly simple. My advice would be to stay away from financing if at all possible. Mickey Baker Bonanza N1744G

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I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it! I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE.

Set your expectations lower and live a happier life.  For the price of that $100,000 182, you can get four other airplanes. If you must have a certified airplane, look at a late 1960s 172, or even a 150.  Or go way out there and buy something with real curb appeal like a Navion, a Meyers, a Stinson, etc. Think too about going the experimental route.  If installment payments are what you crave, then go with an RV-6 and pay for those components only as you can afford them and/or you’ve finished the last ones!  It’s just like making loan payments except there’s no interest! Remember, you can buy a plane that needs some TLC and, with a little sweat equity, turn it into a real marketplace gem.  That might be another way to piggyback your way to the 182. greg — greg travis                     "The coffee shop piano plays toe-tapping jazz, http://www.prime-mover.org/             — Microsoft, in "The Future is Today"

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Lemme see.  I paid $ 200,000.00 for my Turbo310R. How do I justify the plane? I don’t.  Every year in December I hold a WICCA session. I take every receipt for the plane, put it into a Wicker man, cover him in absurdly expensive 100LL fuel and torch the bastard.  All the while planning on puking yet more money in the coming year. Buy what you can afford and screw the rest. Ken McLeod N76CW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it! I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE. I sure would appreciate some understanding on how you all do it! Maybe it can help me figure how I could do it. Thanks!

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I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it!

Buying a plane is like buying any other luxury toy.  It’s just like buying a boat, RV, second home, etc. Don’t every try to "make the numbers work", or justify it based on time saved, etc. I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE.

On my 182 Rg the annual is $2000-3000.  Insurance is another $2000/yr, maintenance adds about $50/hr.  Fuel is 16 gals/hr.  Hangar is $200/mo. And that assuming I don’t buy any other toys for the plane. I sure would appreciate some understanding on how you all do it! Maybe it can help me figure how I could do it. Thanks!

Owning a plane and flying is a hobby.  You probably have neighbors that own motorcycles, RVs, restored cars, motorhomes, boats, etc.  You get the plane the same way they do.  You sacrifice other things because you have decided to spend on the plane.

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I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it! I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE. I sure would appreciate some understanding on how you all do it! Maybe it can help me figure how I could do it. Thanks!

Well, *I* certainly can’t afford that! Given that, the only thing I can suggest is that you quit trying to figure out how to afford a $100,000 plane and figure out how much you *can* afford. Then find a plane that costs less that that. George Patterson,  N3162Q.

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I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it! I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE. I sure would appreciate some understanding on how you all do it! Maybe it can help me figure how I could do it. Thanks!

Response:

I’ve always wanted to own my own plane. However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it! I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft, annual maintenance. costs and the like. I know this and fuel costs will depend on the type of aircraft, so for example, lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE.

Well, let’s see, first of all my plane was $35,000 instead of $100,000 and I think that makes the biggest difference.  Fuel is not much worse than when I rented and I buy it through a fuel club ($18/month, $1.59/gal).  I don’t have a hangar.  After we pay the mortgage we just give everything else to our mechanic . I sure would appreciate some understanding on how you all do it! Maybe it can help me figure how I could do it. Thanks!

It’s easy, you scrimp and save on other things. Margy

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…However, the almighty dollar is what keeps me back. I have a pretty full plate as it is and I just can’t understand how it is that you that own your own aircraft can afford it!  I need some insight as to how the financing goes/works on say a 100,000 dollar aircraft…

One can find very nice aircraft, full IFR and low time, for a third to half that.  That makes the "dollar" a lot less "almighty".  But it won’t be: …lets say that it’s a 1984 Cessna 182 with 1000 TTAE.

Well, you pays your money and you takes your choices.  A partnership or club will cut the costs to a fraction, too. Airplanes can be financed.  But interest is only deductible on a home mortgage.  So the cost is a lot less if one has home equity or cash.   Interest, especially nondeductible interest, is money gone forever. (Of course, time is also lost forever, so who am I to say?) Looking at the crowd at Oshkosh, for the most part I see the generation that’s past paying college tuition and home mortgages, and have chosen to balance their investments between 401k and aircraft, so to speak. The Bonanza or late model 182 contingents have a *very* narrow demographic!  That seems to be true at the local marina or boat show, too.  I also notice most cars at the airport are not new BMWs, which says something about the priorities of pilots.  Most households have other responsibilities that have to come first, and few can accumulate much net worth by maxing out on consumer loans.  So it’s a choice between the "consumer culture" and "deferred gratification", I guess?   At least for most of us, it is. Does this not answer your question?  I hope not; it’s not intended to.   It’s intended to stand back, and prompt a larger one: where do you want to be in 10 or 20 years?  That’s up to you.  Paying interest on consumer loans, especially for a recreational vehicle, will cripple most people’s plans to develop any net worth.  That is a consideration for most of us, I think. – Rod Farlee

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Question:

>So, let us all try to remember that we are all different and our families are >all different.  Each situation is unique and will require unique strategies. >Regards, Diane in CT

Diane, Agreed, although I suspect that we may be more alike in some ways then our dialogue indicates, but that this medium allows for so many misunderstandings.  Maybe the East/West thing came about because some folks from the larger, more populated states might think that those of us from the smaller states spend a lot of time together and know each other better than we do, leading to some shared views?  Wouldn’t  it be nice if we did?  (Actually, I’d like it if we could.) I found something else very interesting about that Newsweek issue.  In the same issue with a mother addressing the very difficult subject of residential care (with her son dying at the age of 16), there was another article about a new drug that addresses serotonin as a diet aid.  Doesn’t any one wonder why the drug companies keep turning out meds addressed at dieting (that are probably VERY profitable)?  I found it ironic.

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In article <19971203190900.OAA14…@ladder01.news.aol.com>,   dcfie…@aol.com (DCFields) wrote: > So why then, do many here on ast make sweeping generalization about other ast > participants? If we can not openly discuss issues (including controversial > topics) without the utmost respect for our differences, what possible hope is > there for society as a whole in treating TS folks with respect?  When issues > remain TS vs TS+, rage vs. non-rage, Comings vs the purple bomb, or the worst > example yet, east coast vs west coast, the focus remains on the struggle and > the quest to have the last word. > So, let us all try to remember that we are all different and our families are > all different.  Each situation is unique and will require unique strategies. > Regards, Diane in CT

The diagnoses of TS, AS, autism, schizophrenia, various personality disorders, etc. are nothing but sweeping generalizations.  They exist because it

Question:

Did you see where the MS Chapter in Louisiana is being sued for discrimination of one of its employees under the ADA.  And this is an organization for the disabled?

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>>                L >> ============================================= >> I ain’t no doc.  Don’t pretend to be no doc. >>   I are just me.

Hey, L I loved your response.  You attacked every one of my arguments/opinions without saying/inferring/suggesting that my mental health was in question. I’m truly impressed!! But I’ll be back….(LOL) Chris **********************       The Sheep Station        Romanov Crosses            Dexter Cattle       Dunsford, Ontario **********************

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>Hey, L >I loved your response.  You attacked every one of my arguments/opinions >without saying/inferring/suggesting that my mental health was in question. >I’m truly impressed!! >But I’ll be back….(LOL) >Chris

Hey back, Chris Your mental health is not a question.  The state of the Canadian society is.  We have enough problems with folks that get disgruntled at our chapters and some seem to have more dissatisfied customers than most. But I don’t see anyone with good stuff to say about the Canadian society jumping in this mud puddle with us.  And have seen many complain.  Makes me wonder….  But am not in your country and can’t comment on your particular problems there. I don’t think I shot down all of your ideas.  I beleive that there should be some folks with MS on the staff of every chapter but they have to be in positions that wouldn’t ruin their health.  Mine is ideal for me because I job share with another lady who has MS.  One of us is there every day for 5 hours unless there are some unusual circumstances.  But we can always get back to someone within 24 hours. In the meantime, there are a couple of full time services folks that are more than decent folks if one doesn’t mind talking to somebody without MS. Everybody from the Exec. Director to the accountant to …..  will take the time to talk to a client.  We do have a couple of new folks that aren’t entirely comfortable talking about everything but they are learning.  Gotta admit, this chapter has only been this good for the last 5 or 6 years and we still have some complaints.  For some folks, just telling the truth is too much for them to handle. Keep plugging Chris.  I hope you and other Canadians are putting some of that energy into finding the one or two folks there that may listen to your problems with how the society there functions.              L ============================================= I ain’t no doc.  Don’t pretend to be no doc.   I are just me.

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On Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:02:16 -0400, Chris Fincham – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <finc…@PETERBORO.NET> wrote: > >I wasn’t suggesting that the MS Society open up full time, > run-of-the-mill > >jobs.  PwMS aren’t run-of-the-mill people.  If we can’t rely on our > Society > >to show other employers that a little creativity and innovation can > provide > >them with eager, effective employees, who can we depend on? > Nobody.  Read on for some *buts* to this one. > >… MS Society offices are accessible – so assistive > >devices wouldn’t be a problem.  You don’t need the ability to work a > >standard 8-hour day if you’re working for an employer that > understands your > >needs and limitations.  A place to grab a nap … and > >flex-time would open up existing jobs… Job-sharing … > >Then there are all the jobs that can be done from home using current > >technology.  Switchboard jobs can be done from home via > call-forwarding. > Agreed. > >Accounting, bookkeeping, purchasing and correspondence can be done at > home > >and the resulting files transferred electronically. > These are usually done by the same person in a small office so all the > knowledge is in one office and two heads, that of the office manager > and that of the Executive Director (or whatever your head honcho is > called).  The Office Manager is assisted in the job by a data entry > person which could be a job share thing but not out of office.  This > requires handling, sometimes, large amounts of money, stopping what > you are doing and doing something else because you are at the command > of the needs of all the department heads.  Both positions require > extra hours, sometimes without much break and sometimes require a > couple of weeks without a day off around large event times.  This > would also require, besides computer equipment, copiers, fax machines > etc. and the accompanying telephone and server fees. > >  Meetings can be teleconferenced or held in "chat" format. > Teleconferenced, yes.  Chat format requires that everyone be online > and have compatable servers, equipment and software.  EXPENSIVE!! for > the society to purchase and maintain.  Remember the longterm service > agreements required for computer hardware illiterate folks and those > not strong or steady enough to take apart and service their own > hardware. > > Coordination of fundraising > >activities can be done via telephone, snail-mail and e-mail – PwMS > are > >capable of handling these tasks. > WRONG!!!!!!  This is a full time job that requires several days a week > overtime and many weekends.  Lots of the work is done in exactly that > way.  BUT there are numerous meetings with community folks to persuade > them to give you services, volunteers, printers, the trophy making > guy, and the list goes on.  It also requires a considerable amount of > hard physical labor in jeans and a t-shirt before and after an event > and sometimes dressing in your best bib and tucker inbetween with no > rest or sleep to take you from the slave to the smiling prince or > princess.  You gotta go play golf with the golfers in the tournaments > you put on.  You gotta not only plan, coordinate, run, set up and tear > down the walk stuff (which starts the evening before the event, goes > thru the night, coffee and donuts, etc.) but you gotta have a walk > team too and raise your own money from folks and companies you know. > The work that goes into these events is phenomenal!!!  And you do it > all on salary no matter how many hours you put in or how many hours > sleep you miss in the two weeks prior to the event and the two weeks > after (those are the worst though there are some events that take a > full year to do from end to end). > >  Recruiting and training volunteers, > >arranging for home care, lobbying – jobs that can be done by PwMS. > No problem.  Just be prepared to be wakened at all hours of the day > and night and being on 24 hour call if you do the homecare.  I put in > about 30 hours a week on the advocacy bit.  Most of it volunteer > because I only work 15 hours a week unless we do a Saturday, all day, > seminar for pwMS.  Be prepared to do conferences where you are on > planes for many hours and then have to be at a reception the night you > get there, all dressed up and thinking straight.  Then you do 3 or 4 > complete days, including lunch with speakers, of conference.  Those > are at least 7-8 hr days with no rest except the occasional potty > break.  Then you network on your off time in the evening by going to > dinner and maybe some drinks with others at the conference.  Takes me > a week to rest up from a 4 day conference!  Part time isn’t always. > >All public education and public relations jobs can and *should* be > done by > >PwMS – we can not only tell people but show them what it’s like to > live with > >this disease.  And who better to handle enquiries from other PwMS > than us? > Neuros, urologists, dieticians, HMO experts, social security people, > rehab folks, experts on sexual problems, caregivers……..  Depends > on the class doesn’t it??? > >Please give me an example of an MS Society job that you think *can’t* > be > >done by a person with multiple sclerosis:  I’ll find a way!  As could > the MS > >Society. > Fundraiser department head.  Executive Director (requires one way to > run an office without conflict in how to do or what to do) requires > about 60 to 80 hours a week.  Necessary to have *connections* with big > business.  Meetings, meetings, meetings.  With staff, board, > committees that keep stuff running, contributers, potential whatevers, > and the list goes on.  Office manager requires accounting knowledge, > supervisory expertise, attending many of the meetings with the Exec,, > purchasing knowledge, and sometimes actually going to do the shopping, > heavy lifting……. > Granted, if the pwMS is capable of doing the job and being available > when the stress becomes the greatest, working outside in the heat, > cold or whatever at events, etc., they they should do the job.  But > can our health be counted on??? > There is lots of room for folks with MS.  Our office does that.  Some > are paid and some are volunteer.  Volunteers can say *stick it in your > ear today* easier than a paid person can so they prefer it that way. > They can also refuse to do the grunt tasks if they don’t want to do > them.  Not a luxury paid staff has. > Keep in mind that, in the US, one has to work for 30 hours a week to > qualify for insurance, vacation pay, and most of the other benefits. > Federal labor law.  Check the labor law in your country to see how > many hours you may have to work to receive benefits.  (Our boss is > good enough to give us some of these unless National says no.  We do > get 15 hours vacation pay a year.  We can expense stuff that is work > related, like milage, etc.  And if we are sick, he will do what is > necessary to help us including allow other staff time to do errands, > get us to the doc, make sure we have food and other necessities, etc. > But that’s cause he is who he is and not cause he has to.) > >  It’s ironic that the MS Society refuses to > >recognize one of our most important needs – jobs. > I grant you that this is the case in probably most of the offices. > But they are learning from offices like ours.  A couple of Exec > Directors have called to ask for my job description because they were > impressed by what I and the lady I job share do.  They want to do the > same thing.  One by one, the ones with smarts are catching on. > It isn’t easy to set the example.  You need the support (of all kinds > including staff that loves eachother instead of having infighting) of > everybody from the Board to the cleaning folks.  And you gotta > remember that some folks aren’t worth hiring no matter their state of > health. >                L > ============================================= > I ain’t no doc.  Don’t pretend to be no doc. >   I are just me.

Bravo to LaVonne!!! She tells it like it is. Our Chapter has 5 staff members and 4000 members, and I am the Chapter Services Director.  I am engaged to a man who has had MS for 25 years and our Community Development Coordinator’s (she coordinates special events like the MSWalks/2000 walkers and handles our volunteer program) dad has MS.  We certainly are affected by MS and wouldn’t work for an organization that we didn’t feel was trying to complete it’s mission of "ending the devastating effects of MS". LaVonne is right about how much we work.  I start at 9:00AM and leave about 7:30PM and usually don’t stop for lunch.  At least one or two weekends a month are devoted to services programs or special events. Yesterday (Saturday) was a Newly Diagnosed Program, start to finish it took 11 hours.  Three of the four people with MS who had volunteered to to help were unable to come.  55 attended this program to hear a neurologist, Social Security attorney, physical therapist and a mental health couselor (who has MS).  All of these professionals volunteered their time and expertise. If the attendees had sought this information on their own, it probably would have cost them over $1500 each! LaVonne is right about the office equipment too.  We are certainly not online.  5 years ago we didn’t even have a computer and were still cutting and pasting with real scissors and glue.  Today we do have computers and are thankful to at least have Mircosoft Word. Our Board Chairman has MS, as do three other board members and the wife of another.  Five of the ten folks on my Chapter Services Committee have MS.  Every event committee has a person who has MS(I mean the committee, not all of the volunteers who have MS that help with the event.)  All of these folks help direct the Chapter’s activities. The negative posts from the people who really don’t know the overall good that the NMSS does concern me.  (Sure there are problems, no orgaization is … read more »

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>>It would be hard to find PWMS who can work a fulltime job.  It would be

mostly RR’s like you who would >>get the benefits I wasn’t suggesting that the MS Society open up full time, run-of-the-mill jobs.  PwMS aren’t run-of-the-mill people.  If we can’t rely on our Society to show other employers that a little creativity and innovation can provide them with eager, effective employees, who can we depend on? Deanna stated that the MS Society offices are accessible – so assistive devices wouldn’t be a problem.  You don’t need the ability to work a standard 8-hour day if you’re working for an employer that understands your needs and limitations.  A place to grab a nap during the work day and flex-time would open up existing jobs to people who suffer fatigue. Job-sharing would give more PwMS part-time jobs without the physical demands of an 8-hour day. Then there are all the jobs that can be done from home using current technology.  Switchboard jobs can be done from home via call-forwarding. Accounting, bookkeeping, purchasing and correspondence can be done at home and the resulting files transferred electronically.  Meetings can be teleconferenced or held in "chat" format.  Coordination of fundraising activities can be done via telephone, snail-mail and e-mail – PwMS are capable of handling these tasks.  Recruiting and training volunteers, arranging for home care, lobbying – jobs that can be done by PwMS. All public education and public relations jobs can and *should* be done by PwMS – we can not only tell people but show them what it’s like to live with this disease.  And who better to handle enquiries from other PwMS than us? Please give me an example of an MS Society job that you think *can’t* be done by a person with multiple sclerosis:  I’ll find a way!  As could the MS Society. There would be inherent expenses during the transition period.  My solution? Let medical students pay for their own education for a few years ($200,000+ granted to postdoctoral fellows and students in 1996) – they can get student loans and will have no trouble paying them back when they become doctors! Working even a few hours a day could supply PwMS with a job, partial coverage under the employee benefits that Deanna outlined (drug plan, dental plan, extended disability), and increased  pension benefits after retirement. Legislation allowing organizations to hire only their own exists because a need has been recognized.  It’s ironic that the MS Society refuses to recognize one of our most important needs – jobs. I can’t think of any better public education and publicity for PwMS and the MS Society than a policy which states "we hire only PwMS". Chris **********************       The Sheep Station        Romanov Crosses            Dexter Cattle       Dunsford, Ontario **********************

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Question:

     It is fun to have a cockateil nibble on your ears, shirt, hair, and glasses.  Yes, I am thankful to have him, as my "baby".  There is nothing better for your well-being, than a pet!  Have a happy New Year!

  Right now I couldn’t agree more. Last night my girl-friend broke up with me over the phone while my tiel was on my shoulder. He’s never been especially cuddly, but when he saw how sad I was, he snuggled up under my chin and let me pet him for the first time ever. He helped me get through the evening without too much crying. I’ll never fall in love with anything else but birds again. *sniff*   Happy (yeah right!) new year to you all from Rolf Arne and Rusken (Grey tiel).

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Dear friends,              Cutie, my lutino cockateil, has a favorite perch, my shoulders.  Yes, my baby likes no better place to play.  This is my busy season, and I am trying to figure out how I could spend more time with my gorgeous little one….  I was doing work at home, the last couple of days, so I took Cutie downstairs, to my work area, and proceeded to enjoy my work, much more.  I got nibbled at quite a bit, and crapped on, but who cares?  Just as long as I am wearing a junky T-Shirt, it doesn’t matter how much he poops on me.  It just feels good to have him with me.      It is fun to have a cockateil nibble on your ears, shirt, hair, and glasses.  Yes, I am thankful to have him, as my "baby".  There is nothing better for your well-being, than a pet!  Have a happy New Year!      BTW, he got startled a bit, when I sneezed, and he flew off of me. I got him back on me, pretty quickly.  What a sweetheart!                Roxanne —      Roxanne Goldberg, CPA | Accounting and tax services available.               tax topics:      http://www.telesphere.com/ts/rgcpa      http://www.mindspring.com/c56.html      http://geocities.com/WallStreet/2129           netcom links page:      http://www.netcom.com/~rgcpa/rglinks.html      FREE PAGERS!!! http://www.jwp.bc.ca/telenetwork/gold.htm          Coin, stamp, and sports memorabilia dealers, to join NOL:      http://www.hobbymarkets.com/roxanne.html    

Response:

Question:

Hello, I hear much and read much talk about the artistry of flyfishing.  The flyfishing rags, books, and newsletters are filled with mentions of this idea.  The concept of flyfishing as art intrigues me.  The webster definition (included below) of artist works well for me, and doesn’t seem to include the practice of catching fish (using a fly or otherwise).  "Conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste" seems to be the key phrase in definitions of artist.  In flyfishing don’t we seek to imitate using creations governed by direct observations? People discuss fishing techniques based on their comparative level of artistry, when in fact they mean a distinctly different attribute – that of skill or experience. Even if we somehow believe that there is artistry in flyfishing, isn’t the same characteristic present in every fishing technique (even in lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite)? Can artistry be defined by each individual? -tgades —- DEFINITION 0 art.ist ‘a:rt-*st n 1a: one who professes and practices an art in which    conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste 1b: a person    skilled in one of the fine arts 2: a usu. adept or skillful public    performer or entertainer : —-

Response:

[rip, rip, fizz, fizz] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hear much and read much talk about the artistry of flyfishing.  The flyfishing rags, books, and newsletters are filled with mentions of this idea.  The concept of flyfishing as art intrigues me.  The webster definition (included below) of artist works well for me, and doesn’t seem to include the practice of catching fish (using a fly or otherwise).  "Conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste" seems to be the key phrase in definitions of artist.  In flyfishing don’t we seek to imitate using creations governed by direct observations? People discuss fishing techniques based on their comparative level of artistry, when in fact they mean a distinctly different attribute – that of skill or experience. Even if we somehow believe that there is artistry in flyfishing, isn’t the same characteristic present in every fishing technique (even in lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite)? Can artistry be defined by each individual? -tgades —- DEFINITION 0 art.ist ‘a:rt-*st n 1a: one who professes and practices an art in which    conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste 1b: a person    skilled in one of the fine arts 2: a usu. adept or skillful public    performer or entertainer : —-

…imagination and taste…   …imagination…. …and taste… …ponderous silence… when imagination appears, it surely is art. but of taste…?   hmm… but, taste is subjective. Moreso then imagination. Imagination is imagination, man… So when imagination and taste are combined, as an art, it is subjective and can not be defined *except* by the individual. As such, we should be very careful when passing judgment on others. As such, indicator fishing is an artform.   Just not to George.   And by God, he has the right to say so. TimW

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I consider the act of fly fishing to be performance art.  Other forms of fishing are no less artfully carried out, however, it doesn’t resonate as deeply as ff does with me.  Therefore it would be kinda like that awfull abstract that I don’t care for but somebody else was willing to part with 1.5 million to hang over there mantle.  Different strokes. Performance art dosen’t fit your dictionary definition of art either, but in my mind, anything that expresses and/or displays a persons intent, thoughts, feelings by making a statement that can be interpreted by more that the individual who is making that statement, is art.  Thus, language is an art, practicing a healthy life style is an art, getting out of bed in the morning is an art, every aspect of life is an art.  The difference lies in the individuals mastery of the tools/medium to express the art form. I just happened to be listening to a program today that focussed on primative cultures.  The basic difference between these "primative" cultures and our "advanced" cultures is that the primative ones still recognize, and honor through ritual celebration these aspects of their that we don’t consider to be art.  Their lives are ritualized expresions of their beliefs that others can observe and draw personal meaning from.  That is living artfully. What could be more ritualistic than flyfishing.  It serves no survival purpose.  Is it an expression of an ideal?  Can we derive a personal meaning from observing someone ffing.  I certanly can.  Whether I am right in my interpretation is another matter. Even the ARTifacts that we use in ff are ritualized, judged by others on the asthetic as well as functional atributes.  Artfully tied flies, rods built and crafted by artisans,  hats and vests decorated with ornaments and patches of fabric.  All these minutia transmit meaning  and evoke response in others.   The tribes in Papua New Guinea don’t know how lucky they are that they don’t need to go to a dictionary to figure out what to call something that evokes passion, feeling and meaning to them.  To them it is all part of the Art of Life. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I hear much and read much talk about the artistry of flyfishing.  The flyfishing rags, books, and newsletters are filled with mentions of this idea.  The concept of flyfishing as art intrigues me.  The webster definition (included below) of artist works well for me, and doesn’t seem to include the practice of catching fish (using a fly or otherwise).  "Conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste" seems to be the key phrase in definitions of artist.  In flyfishing don’t we seek to imitate using creations governed by direct observations? People discuss fishing techniques based on their comparative level of artistry, when in fact they mean a distinctly different attribute – that of skill or experience. Even if we somehow believe that there is artistry in flyfishing, isn’t the same characteristic present in every fishing technique (even in lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite)? Can artistry be defined by each individual? -tgades —- DEFINITION 0 art.ist ‘a:rt-*st n 1a: one who professes and practices an art in which    conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste 1b: a person    skilled in one of the fine arts 2: a usu. adept or skillful public    performer or entertainer : —-

Response:

Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ? I dunno, but I wish they woulda.

How’s about Scientific Artists?  Artistic Scientists?  Angletific Scienctisticers?

Response:

– Chaz Clover "Welcome To Earth!" Will Smith

: ……Big snip…… : : In the practice of flyfishing we demonstrate skill.  Some are better than : others at it.  Some execute more gracefully than others.  But art? : : No. : — : Chaz Clover : "Welcome To Earth!" Will Smith : : : Well, if some dame in a tutu frolicking on an oak floor is art (color me : lowbrow) then a fly caster in top form has to be art! Steve, you’re missing an important point.  The "dame in a tutu" is performing movement prescribed by a choreographer – in other words doing what she’s been told to do.  She is NOT an artist. The choreographer, maybe. A "flycaster in top form" could be: An athlete. A prodigious student. Enormously skilled. Well practiced. Overly focused. Left with way too much time on his/her hands. But an artist? No. Lets face it Steve, it’s a pastime.  Something you do when the Broncos have a loosing season.  It’s simply something we do in our free time.  Some take it a lot farther, some do it a lot better.  But there is no way it can be considered art. You want art?  Take up watercolor. You want to flyfish? Then flyfish. But don’t confuse the two. </chaz

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: ARG!     Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ?    I dunno, but I wish they woulda.    TimW What color would they choose for their Artistic Angler’s Limited Edition Explorer?  Would Artistic Angler be allowed to place famous quotes on their flyboxes without reproach?  Artist’s putty strike indicators?  Artistic Angler C&R diaries? just stirring a bit. -tgades

C&R diaries would not be neccessary since a box of water colours would be used instead.  After each fish is caught, the angler would reflect on the experience and record it in a painting.  The extra time taken to reflect would decrease angling pressure and  cure the angler of emotional bankruptcy at the same time. Dosen’t sound bad to me. Mike

Response:

Hello, I hear much and read much talk about the artistry of flyfishing. Can artistry be defined by each individual? -tgadesPeople often refer to the art of racing a car or playing basketball. Art seems to be whatever we want. Bob

Or need it to be! Mike

Response:

Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ? I dunno, but I wish they woulda. How’s about Scientific Artists?  Artistic Scientists?  Angletific Scienctisticers?

Mike

Response:

When I get in the groove casting, and my loops are tight, the casts are accurate, this again contains no art, perhaps "artifice", but it’s just a skill I’ve learned.  I’m not fooling myself that flyfishing, while complex and interesting and historical and enjoyable, is anything other than what it is: a highly refined bloodsport.

Sometimes though…you create art… Consider this: You are flyfishing in a small colorado creek during the fall colors. The snow capped Ragged Mountain range in the backdrop.  An elderly woman on vacation from manhatten comes along the road in a car and sees you not involved in a bloodsport, but conducting with your wand a symphony of contrasts. "The canyon was glorified by colors and rhythms"                                  Norman Mclean TimW

Response:

Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ? I dunno, but I wish they woulda. How’s about Scientific Artists?  Artistic Scientists?  Angletific Scienctisticers?

Religious Anglers ? TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ?    I dunno, but I wish they woulda.    TimW What color would they choose for their Artistic Angler’s Limited Edition Explorer?  Would Artistic Angler be allowed to place famous quotes on their flyboxes without reproach?  Artist’s putty strike indicators?  Artistic Angler C&R diaries? just stirring a bit. -tgades C&R diaries would not be neccessary since a box of water colours would be used instead.  After each fish is caught, the angler would reflect on the experience and record it in a painting.  The extra time taken to reflect would decrease angling pressure and  cure the angler of emotional bankruptcy at the same time. Dosen’t sound bad to me. Mike Uetz

I think Mike has hit it right on the head and pointed out the artistic bankruptcy present in much of fishing arena. This could be approached in a manner similar to the Japanese samurai where being a warrior and a poet were of equal (at least socially) importance. Thus, after landing a fish some artistic act commemorating the event should be performed. It could be water colors like Mike suggested or perhaps the angler should then repose on the bank, contemplate the natural surroundings and compose a short poem, like haiku, which captures the spiritual essence of the experience and the bonding of the spirit of the living creature just brought to hand and the metaphysics of mankind’s quest for self-realization. These short poems were often less descriptive than spiritual. Something like (pardon me if I exceed the traditional length forms): Unfurled line and chub are one Dragged through moss and stinking mud To sink the fly then evermore Alas, another one Jeez. I feel more uplifted already. Jon

Response:

Art is creation, craft is execution.  <snip Why are craftsmen also refered to as artisans?

Mike, An artisan is one trained in some mechanical art (oh Lord! there’s the "A" word again) or trade; a handicraftsman; a mechanic.  Probably from the same root as "artifact" and "artifice".  Really, there’s no art in it. How many of us think that there’s some sort of "art" in flyfishing?  Ask yourself, what do I actually create, new, for the benefit of mankind or society, that adds to culture?  Was Shakespeare an artist?  Betcherass he was.  Marlon Brando?  Nope, just an excellent craftsman.  As pretty and servicable (and even occasionally effective) are the flies I tie, there is no "art" in them–I simply make them.  When I get in the groove casting, and my loops are tight, the casts are accurate, this again contains no art, perhaps "artifice", but it’s just a skill I’ve learned.  I’m not fooling myself that flyfishing, while complex and interesting and historical and enjoyable, is anything other than what it is: a highly refined bloodsport.   Anglerboy

Response:

Hello, I hear much and read much talk about the artistry of flyfishing. Can artistry be defined by each individual? -tgadesPeople often refer to the art of racing a car or playing basketball.

Art seems to be whatever we want. Bob

Response:

Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ?

I dunno, but I wish they woulda. TimW

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: ARG!     Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ?    I dunno, but I wish they woulda.    TimW What color would they choose for their Artistic Angler’s Limited Edition Explorer?  Would Artistic Angler be allowed to place famous quotes on their flyboxes without reproach?  Artist’s putty strike indicators?  Artistic Angler C&R diaries? just stirring a bit. -tgades

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, I hear much and read much talk about the artistry of flyfishing.  The flyfishing rags, books, and newsletters are filled with mentions of this idea.  The concept of flyfishing as art intrigues me.  The webster definition (included below) of artist works well for me, and doesn’t seem to include the practice of catching fish (using a fly or otherwise).  "Conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste" seems to be the key phrase in definitions of artist.  In flyfishing don’t we seek to imitate using creations governed by direct observations? People discuss fishing techniques based on their comparative level of artistry, when in fact they mean a distinctly different attribute – that of skill or experience. Even if we somehow believe that there is artistry in flyfishing, isn’t the same characteristic present in every fishing technique (even in lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite)? Can artistry be defined by each individual? -tgades —- DEFINITION 0 art.ist ‘a:rt-*st n 1a: one who professes and practices an art in which   conception and execution are governed by imagination and taste 1b: a person   skilled in one of the fine arts 2: a usu. adept or skillful public   performer or entertainer : —-

Good idea t! I looked up ‘Art’ and found an interesting digression :- syn ART,SKILL,CUNNING,ARTIFICE,CRAFT mean the faculty of executing well what one has devised. Art implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power;Skill stresses technical knowledge and proficiency;Cunning suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing or executing; Artifice suggests mechanical skill esp. in imitating things in nature; Craft may imply expertness in workmanship so looking at the available synonyms I would apply to fishing I would to one degree or another apply skill, cunning and artifice, but not so much Art. Art is when I play my guitar when nobody else is home to say "Eeek, what is *that* you’re playing ?" Why do you suppose they named it Scientific Anglers instead of Artistic Anglers ?

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Art is creation, craft is execution.  Writing a play is art, acting that play is a craft.  Inventing and designing a fly is art, fishing it is a craft.  I would have to say that flyfishing is more a craft than an art, since we are mainly practicing learned skills and observing.  That flyfishing is a craft, doesn’t reduce at all the joy of the act.  We admire those who have mastered their craft.  Beware of artists in any event, they are often the ones we label as crazy. Anglerboy

Why are craftsmen also refered to as artisans? Mike

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: When paul created a hatch through shadowcasting then, I’d agree with his : brother.  He was an artist. Perhaps the writer who put this image into your head is the artist. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I consider the act of fly fishing to be performance art.  Other forms of fishing are no less artfully carried out,…..

I think Mike hit the nail on the head. I often fish in Rocky Mountain National Park where there are lots of non-fly fisherman and non-fisherman swarming around. I seldom miss drawing a big audianc for my performance art. I’m not all that gracefull or handsom so it must be the act. I see spin fisherman and bait fisherman but they never draw such attention. Since people enjoy watching it it does have pretensions of being performance art.

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: I hear much and read much talk about the artistry of flyfishing.  The : flyfishing rags, books, and newsletters are filled with mentions of : this idea.  The concept of flyfishing as art intrigues me.  The : webster definition (included below) of artist works well for me, and : doesn’t seem to include the practice of catching fish (using a fly or : otherwise).  "Conception and execution are governed by imagination and : taste" seems to be the key phrase in definitions of artist.  In : flyfishing don’t we seek to imitate using creations governed by direct : observations? I’d tend to agree with you.  Having given it some thought I can only go so far as to say it is a skill – not art.  At least not within the given definition. : People discuss fishing techniques based on their comparative level of : artistry, when in fact they mean a distinctly different attribute – : that of skill or experience. Correct.  Some practitioners may demonstrate their flyfishing with a bit more flair than others, but we all follow the same methods, practices and traditions. : Even if we somehow believe that there is artistry in flyfishing, isn’t : the same characteristic present in every fishing technique (even in : lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite)? I think that’s stretching it a bit. : Can artistry be defined by each individual? No.  In my mind, "true art" is that which touches something in the collective imagination/subconscious.  Art cannot be defined on an "individual" level.  Thus, much of what is refereed to as "art" nowadays would be better defined as self-indulgence. The same could be said for flyfishing. However, I would ad that certain aspects of the sport – the crafts: Fly tying, cane rod building, etc., do at times achieve a level of art.  It is here where the "eye" and the hand combine to determine the product of material in much the same way an oil painter would. Tom Jurasek of Denver ties Atlantic Salmon flies in a manner that will truly bring tears to your eyes.  They are works of art in every sense; celebrations of color,  tradition and personal expression. .  So here within the sport is artistry. In the practice of flyfishing we demonstrate skill.  Some are better than others at it.  Some execute more gracefully than others.  But art? No. — Chaz Clover "Welcome To Earth!" Will Smith

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……Big snip…… In the practice of flyfishing we demonstrate skill.  Some are better than others at it.  Some execute more gracefully than others.  But art? No. — Chaz Clover "Welcome To Earth!" Will Smith

Well, if some dame in a tutu frolicking on an oak floor is art (color me lowbrow) then a fly caster in top form has to be art! Steve

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Art is creation, craft is execution.  Writing a play is art, acting that play is a craft.  Inventing and designing a fly is art, fishing it is a craft.  I would have to say that flyfishing is more a craft than an art, since we are mainly practicing learned skills and observing.  That flyfishing is a craft, doesn’t reduce at all the joy of the act.  We admire those who have mastered their craft.  Beware of artists in any event, they are often the ones we label as crazy. Anglerboy

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I have seen art in plumbing and backhoe operators.  Anything can be an art if you approach it with imagination, refined skill, and aesthetic considerations (what the dictionary called taste). Your own aesthetic values are fine as there is no accounting for taste and no need to please others in art. We flyfishers most often do not bring any imagination to it. We commonly ask "what fly is working".  We take pains to match existing fly patterns rather than just making up our own immitations. We look for off the shelf equipment and special purpose lines rather than making our own. In the lack of imagination a beautiful and precise cast or mend can appear as art but I think this is just skill and experience. Sometimes we bring art to it and solve a problem in a new way, catching a fish when the established flies and methods aren’t working. Sometimes we try the offbeat and don’t catch anything. Often the complete novice or child tries something completely absurd in our view but catches a leviathan. The fish are as predictable in general but also as fickle and spontaneous as people. There is plenty of room for art in flyfishing, and many of the innovations have come about by artistry and creativity, but it is not necessarily or usually an art. Mark Vinsel http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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Art is creation, craft is execution.  Writing a play is art, acting that play is a craft.  Inventing and designing a fly is art, fishing it is a craft.  I would have to say that flyfishing is more a craft than an art, since we are mainly practicing learned skills and observing.  That flyfishing is a craft, doesn’t reduce at all the joy of the act.  We admire those who have mastered their craft.  Beware of artists in any event, they are often the ones we label as crazy.

When paul created a hatch through shadowcasting then, I’d agree with his brother.  He was an artist. TimW

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I consider the act of fly fishing to be performance art. ..snip..

This was particularly true the day I stepped into some foliage to ease down a steep bank, found no terra firma there and pitched down the slope into the water. As a true artist, I had no need for an audience but did this performance out of the natural artistic exuberance in my heart at that moment. The resulting ‘macrame’ in my line was a lasting tribute to this performance. Performance art dosen’t fit your dictionary definition of art either, but in my mind, anything that expresses and/or displays a persons

intent,thoughts, feelings by making a statement that can be interpreted by morethat the individual who is making that statement, is art.  Thus, languageis an art, practicing a healthy life style is an art, getting out of bed inthe morning is an art,… Getting out of bed is more than an art, it is like mounting an expedition. ….. Even the ARTifacts that we use in ff are ritualized,

….. This is a great concept. I had never considered that I was using artifacts to ffish. Kind of makes me feel like an archaeologist, an Indiana Jones type fishing my way back from an historic dig. Gives a type of geologic-time level of  reverence for the tools. My papyrus creel, obsidian hook sharpener, waders made from various water mammals and stuffed with straw for cold water. Wow.;) Jon

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