Question:

To understand whether or not it’s illegal, we have to look at the way the law legislates how we do commerce. There are three places we can from statute law (ie the laws the government make up), and industry based practices (eg, ethics that govern, say, CPAs. If you break one of these ethics or practices, the CPA throw you out of the organisation.) Under common law, most commerce is dealt with under the law of contract. No-one has to disclose anything under contract law – not markups, not how many hours work was done, nothing. All contract law is concerned about can be boiled down to: Did someone make an offer for something? Did the other person accept it? For instance, if you go to a shop that sells bottles of Coke, you can be sure that the shopkeeper has added on a markup to the price he bought it for. But he’s not obligated to tell you what that is. This area of law is covered bycontract law. The shopkeeper says "I will sell this to you for $1", and if you say "Ok", then it’s yours. This is very simple, because the shopkeeper can make an offer of a particular price, and you can either choose to accept it or not. However, what happens when neither party knows how much it’s going to cost? For instance, if I’m an accountant doing someone’s tax return, I don’t know how long it’s going to take me to prepare it. If I guessed and said "I’ll do your tax return for $200", then what happens if I find some weird thing about their situation that could save them thousands in tax if I only could be bothered to look up my tax book? If I’d quoted them a flat fee, I wouldn’t pursue it because hey, I’m getting paid the same anyway. Therefore, we need a new body of law to cover these sort of situations, otherwise no-one would trust professionals to do quality work. It’s called The Law of Agency. Instead of quoting an agreed fee, I get appointed to apply my skills in my client’s best interests. I’m allowed to charge by the hour, charge a commission on expenses, even charge a markup … whatever method of payment we can agree on … but I have a "fiduciary duty" to my client, which means I have to act with the highest level of ethics, honesty, and in their best interests. Of course, sometimes conflicts of interest arise. For instance, if you’re relying on me for advice about which shares to buy, what happens if I already own some of those shares? If I say "buy them", your buying them will put the price of my own shares up, which means I’m biased toward recommending them. If this was allowed to happen, no-one would trust professionals to give them good advice. So to maintain my integrity to my fiduciary responsibilities to my client, I therefore have to disclose all the material facts that might bias my opinions. The idea is, if the client knows about my potential biases, and hires me anyway, then at least they’re can judge how fair my opinions are and how well I’m going to act on their behalf. Okay, let’s apply this stuff to the original question about the subcontractor who realised his client was bumping up the number of hours worked in the end user client’s bill. We have three parties here: an end user client, a fixer (the one the end user turned to to solve the problem), and the sub-contractor (who actually went out to the client’s place to solve the problem). I imagine that this case isn’t one where a fixed fee was agreed upon at the beginning. It was probably one that needed specific skills on site to even work out what the problem was. Therefore, the law of agency comes into play, and the fixer (and the subcontractor) have a fiduciary responsibility to act in the client’s best interest if they decide to take on the job. Therefore, if they give a false account of what hours were worked, or what the expenses were, then that’s a breach of their duties. Totally illegal. Release the hounds. But if the hours and expenses are recorded correctly, and they’d made an agreement beforehand about what markups and hourly rates would be charged, then that’s perfectly okay. Having said that, why do funeral homes not mark up the cost of flowers? Well, it could be because the funeral industry is regulated by the government, which means that if you run a funeral home, you’re bound by certain government made laws in addition to the law of agency. So for instance, the government might ban mark ups there. Alternatively, the local association of Funeral Directors might have an industry-wide agreement not to mark up flowers, and will ban you from receiving their monthly newsletter or attending their events if you do. In some industries, belonging to the industry association is important enough that this acts as a deterrent! And as for real estate businesses … check with a realtor in the same state about what the obligations are in this industry. But if it’s common practice to charge a markup for employing a gardener, I guess it’ll be alright as long as markups etc are disclosed beforehand. Regards, Durand PS: There’s a potential loophole here. The realtor could make sure they hire the most expensive gardener in town to mow the lawn. That way, their 30% markup is worth more actual dollars. When the question is asked in court about whether this is in the client’s best interests, the realtor could argue that they provided the client with the highest possible quality of lawn snipping they could find, and leave it to the judge to work out whether the price charged was reasonable. This is an example of how to be unethical without necessarily being illegal. But in the end, if we get a reputation for doing that sort of stuff, it becomes harder to find clients later.

Response:

Hi OB In this scenario what is going on is completely legal! In fact, it falls right in line with the majority of service businesses.

Thank you… great write-up

Response:

Hi Paul It depends upon HOW the paperwork is handled as to whether it is legal or illegal in the scenario’s you presented below. I don’t know where you live, but a mark-up on the appraisal fee is prohibited by law.

ABC Bank requires an appraisal to approve the loan, some banks want to use their own appraisal companies while other will allow registered appraisals to suffice.  You call Bob’s Appraisal service to handle the appraisal, Bob’s says this will cost $350.00, but Bob is too busy to handle it so he calls Amy’s Appraisal to do the work and to bill Bob for the service.  Bob sends the appraisal in on his companies papers and bills on his letterhead for the agreed $350.00.  Amy only charges Bob $250.00 for providing him with Appraisals when he sends orders her way.  Bob is who marked up the appraisal fee!  The customers contract for appraisal to be paid out of closing proceeds is legit at the price of $350.00 I was a Predication Worker for over 25 years.  We went into homes for sale to bring the minor violations up to code, based usually upon the inspectors list of requirements.  Most if not all of the Realtor’s that requested that I do the work, usually worked through Brokers, I also did a lot of work for these Brokers as well. However, many times they would just call me direct and fax me the list of things to be updated or corrected.  More often than not I was told to invoice through an unknown (to me) Broker rather than directly to the Realty Office.  The addresses of these unknown Brokers were often the home address of one of the Realty Office’s Agents.  Who I’m sure had some company name they used to bill the Realty company for the Predication work performed at the going rate for Brokers. Whether it is true or not, I was told that working through a Broker is perfectly legal, even though it usually cost me more in taxes than working independently.  And that billing by a Broker at the common brokerage rate is also quite legal, even if that Broker is just a shell company.  The shell company may be operating illegally, but that is beyond my responsibility as a Predication Worker. TTUL Gary

Response:

Hi OB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB

In this scenario what is going on is completely legal! In fact, it falls right in line with the majority of service businesses. You call Bob’s Place for Service and place an order to have a job done.  Bob calls the company on his list and they go do the work. That company bills Bob, Bob ups the price and bills you. Bob technically is NOT in the Service business, he is a BROKER who finds jobs for those already in the service business, or he may have his own crew paid at a different hourly rate than you are paying to Bob. Regarding the latter part of your question regarding property management situations.  I think I see what you are illuding too, but it is not as uncommon as one would think. Bob owns a truck leasing company, he just happens to also own an XYZ truck dealership as well. Bob is part owner in a major local parts distributorship also. As part owner of the parts shop, he suggests leasing their parts delivery vehicles from Bob’s truck leasing since they have offered the best lease contract to the parts company. As the leasing agent, Bob suggests using XYZ brand trucks to the parts company as ABC brand trucks would be slightly higher in cost to lease and maintain. As the XYZ truck dealership, Bob sells X number of XYZ brand trucks to Bob’s Leasing company.  Bob’s Leasing gets a 10% discount for buying from Bob’x XYZ truck dealership. Nothing illegal there, XYZ sold the trucks for less, the leasing company purchased at a 10% discount. The leasing company leases X number of trucks to the parts company and also offers them a 5% discount for using XYZ brand trucks instead of ABC brand trucks. Nothing illegal there either, the leasing company rented the trucks for less than normal, the parts company got a 5% discount. As part owner of the Parts Distributorship, BOB will realize an increase in his income through the lower expenses of vehicle leasing. As owner of the Leasing Company, Bob will realize his standard 30% profit less 5% of the lease contract on each vehicle. As owner of the XYZ Truck Dealership, Bob will earn his regualar commission on the sale of each truck less the 10% discount he gave to the leasing company. This is a win, win, win, win situation all the way around! The parts company saved money 5%, The leasing company saved money 10%, The truck dealership made bulk sales of vehicles, And Bob made out like a bandit on each transaction of each company. A lot of companies work internally almost that same way! Company divisions sell to other company divisions at a profit for each division.  In some companies this would be illegal, but for most large companies it is common business practice to work this way.  Money does not necessarily have to change hands.  Company divisions work within assigned budgets, their goal is to remain under budget in the product or part that division is responsible for. They make deals on raw materials, make deals on equipment and processes and deliver a component part to the next division at a fixed value.  As the wheel spins, each division is earning or losing budget points. I have a question about a situation that I will post separately regarding my own companies and whether something is legal or illegal. As far as the IRS is concerned, for business tax purposes it is perfectly legal to continue as before, even though changes in ownership of the vendors has taken place. It’s the position of the vendors that now comes into play and the legality of maintaining them as separate vendors. TTUL Gary

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower, I don’t know where you live, but a mark-up on the appraisal fee is prohibited by law. Pest inspection (the termite letter) is paid for by the seller directly, or from the sale proceeds.  While it could be possible that the lender (or the realtor) directs the seller to a certain company, I’ve never been aware of a fee being paid back to the realtor or lender for that. As far as title exam goes, the fees are so small it’s impossible to believe there is some left over to pay back to the lender. Now, title insurance most likely does pay a sales commission back to the lender. I have clients on all sides of the fence (realtors, mortgage brokers, title examiners, appraisal companies, pest control companies, etc) and just don’t see this. That in no way means that there isn’t "thank you" gifts and lunches being bought for your best referral sources. But that is common standard in lots of businesses.

for commercial loans (to businesses) "mark ups" use to be legal and for non-commercial (consumer)  if it’s disclosed it’s not prohibited by law (but I don’t know of any and just recently Bank One got in trouble for this) as I understand it now, banks are more creative in hiding this    - another example-   music companies cannot pay radio stations to play certain songs (payola) —  but they can pay "promotion" fees to the station

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – message Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them. Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB (I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower,

Thanks, thats what I thought… In this case there are no price mark-ups. So I believe we will be OK…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them. Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB

(I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower,

Response:

(I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower,

I don’t know where you live, but a mark-up on the appraisal fee is prohibited by law. Pest inspection (the termite letter) is paid for by the seller directly, or from the sale proceeds.  While it could be possible that the lender (or the realtor) directs the seller to a certain company, I’ve never been aware of a fee being paid back to the realtor or lender for that. As far as title exam goes, the fees are so small it’s impossible to believe there is some left over to pay back to the lender. Now, title insurance most likely does pay a sales commission back to the lender. I have clients on all sides of the fence (realtors, mortgage brokers, title examiners, appraisal companies, pest control companies, etc) and just don’t see this. That in no way means that there isn’t "thank you" gifts and lunches being bought for your best referral sources. But that is common standard in lots of businesses. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

I’ve discounted my rates to them in anticipation of getting more/regular contracts.  On my books, do I show the differential as a loss or other expense?  Example, my established rate is $90/hour and I discount to $70/hour to them – is that $20 difference shown anywhere at tax time?

You can not take an expense for an item that you never pay for.  Since you never "paid" that $20 per hour, you can’t take a "loss" for it. You report $70 of income for one hour, and that is that.  For the service business like yours, you report income as it is collected.  Don’t collect it?  It isn’t income. Comments?  My question would again be: is there any special accounting recommended if/when a loss is taken in the interest of getting regular business – could that differential be a sales/marketing expense?

If you didn’t pay for it in the past, aren’t paying for it now, and won’t pay for it in the future, it isn’t an expense. The difference in "could have" and "did" isn’t deductible. I "could have" billed you for $1,000,000 for this advice, but I didn’t, does not create a million dollar deduction for me. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them.   Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them. Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary

Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB

Response:

One of my clients is a company that provides consulting services to others.  I bill them, they bill the end-user/client.  My bill to them includes travel expenses at a percentage of my agreed rate to them.  I believe their bill to their client includes my travel time calculated at their (higher) rate. – Is it ethical or legal for a company to charge a commission on, or otherwise alter the value of "hours" in travel expense? – At tax time, don’t they need to show my portion as expense but their commission as profit, as with any other line item?  (I don’t know if they plan to claim their entire line item to their client as a reimbursed travel expense, I’m just curious.) – Since we’re talking about time, is my time in the car simply "hours" to everyone, or is there special accounting for them and me where "travel time" is a specific line item in invoices? I’ve discounted my rates to them in anticipation of getting more/regular contracts.  On my books, do I show the differential as a loss or other expense?  Example, my established rate is $90/hour and I discount to $70/hour to them – is that $20 difference shown anywhere at tax time? Finally, and maybe I’m asking for an opinion here more than facts: I’ve been asked to bill my travel expenses using my client’s table, not my own.  For example, they bill travel expenses at 50%, one way, using their office as the point of origin.  My point of origin to some clients is much farther, and 50% of my discounted rate (per above) is only $35/hour, so if I’m in the car for 2 hours I may only be able to bill them for 30 minutes, which is $17.50.  At this rate I’d much rather press for phone time than on-site time.  My normal rate is 75% of actual time, not based on a pre-defined origin, so at my normal rate, that same trip would be 2*75=150, quite a difference from 17.50. My rate serves two purposes, first to discourage clients from requiring excessive travel from me, and second to make sure that if I am required to incur a lot of "down" time, that I don’t take a loss when prime time would otherwise be spent earning full-rate.  The current arrangement only proves my theory.  I’m considering making arrangements with them for me to bill on a table that isn’t tied to their own table for their clients.  They can charge whatever they want but if they want my services they’re going to have to pay my price. Comments?  My question would again be: is there any special accounting recommended if/when a loss is taken in the interest of getting regular business – could that differential be a sales/marketing expense? Thanks!

Response:

Question:

I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes. B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Response:

Sorry, a typo on A. Land Dr. $200,000       Gain (or revenue) Cr. $200,000 Obviously it’s not cash since it’s a donation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes. B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Response:

Should the title costs be debited to LAND instead, making the answer 2,060,000? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes.

ignore the taxes, they are owed by another taxpayer! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

I think all the costs are included in Buildings or land except "avoidable" interest, if the interest was interim construction loan interest then it would be included

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes.

Unless Burlington has assumed the cost of the property taxes owed on the land, as it is an encumbrance on the property your entry is correct except the cash part. Your question states that the city "gave" not "sold" Burlington the land.   Your journal entry for the contribution of the land should look like this for Burlington: Land                         $200,000       Contribution Rev                 $200,000 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Here goes another of my thoughts, according to FASB all costs incurred up to excavation for a new building while getting land ready for its intended use should be attached to land So your journal entry should look like this: Bldg          $2,060,000         Cash                    $2,060,000 Hope this helped. Keep ‘em coming cuz you’re helping me too. Janice

Response:

I think the title search is debited to land also. it’s listed in my homework and in the textbook. I’m happy with these two answers. Thanks to both of you. I’m more concerned with exchanging similar assets when cash is involved, it’s a complicated process. I’m using the Intermediate Accounting book by Rees & Rees by the way.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes. Unless Burlington has assumed the cost of the property taxes owed on the land, as it is an encumbrance on the property your entry is correct except the cash part. Your question states that the city "gave" not "sold" Burlington the land.   Your journal entry for the contribution of the land should look like this for Burlington: Land                         $200,000       Contribution Rev                 $200,000 B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again. Here goes another of my thoughts, according to FASB all costs incurred up to excavation for a new building while getting land ready for its intended use should be attached to land So your journal entry should look like this: Bldg          $2,060,000         Cash                    $2,060,000 Hope this helped. Keep ‘em coming cuz you’re helping me too. Janice

Response:

Question:

I’ll bet you were an altar boy when you were young. Did jesus save you when he came in your ass or your mouth? hehehe Oh, and those "traits" you speak of? They were written my men who wanted power over the sheep that were all too willing to follow them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Okay, Life’s a Bitch. So fucking what? Get over it. And, get on with it. Or, get the fuck out!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV You want me to give up fornication for longsuffering? Are you an idiot? T9W

He is the equivelent of a babbling creek. Only, a creek actually has something worth babbling about. Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Okay, Life’s a Bitch. So fucking what? Get over it. And, get on with it. Or, get the fuck out!

Response:

Because it was all made up by the other apostles for the sole purpose of enhancing the importance their own roles in the affair. Importance which otherwise would have counted for naught. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not even the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses.  Nothing in the Bible regarding the life and teachings of Jesus is an eyewitness accounting, as it was all written at least a generation or two after the fact, and Paul’s writings came first. Paul’s epistles are by far the oldest and are possibly the derived from the originals, yet he never mentions the virgin birth, the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord’s Prayer, the Parable of the Prodigal Sopn, the Good Samaritan or any of the miracles that have become intrinsic parts of Christian beliefs. Vas.

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Okay, Life’s a Bitch. So fucking what? Get over it. And, get on with it. Or, get the fuck out!

Response:

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Your opinion matters! It just doesn’t matter to me.

i said that to an irc accquaintance once except i said, "i respect your right to have an opinion, but i don’t respect your opinion." i’m not sure which wording i like best.. i think it would have to be dependant on the situation.. peace, bogsnarth (currently concieving a song called "Jesus Loves Me.. too hard")

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV Well, no, acutally, I quite enjoy fornication, lewdness, sorcery, drunkenness and revelries, to be

honest.  Moreover, my house is full of idols that all get their turn at offerings at appropriate times. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And now, a little something for you xtians who post to non-xtian newsgroups hoping to "save" us: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. (Proverbs 16:18) And how about Don’t you look at me so smug and say I’m going bad. Who are you to judge me, and the life I live? I know that I’m not perfect And that I don’t claim to be So, before you point your finger Make sure your hands are clean. Bob Marley (Romans 14:4) You know, I suspect that most of the individuals who post such stuff are very young, have had a

recent conversion, and are enthusiastic about "spreading the word" to the rest of the world.  But think about this for a while; we’ve already heard it, and are not interested in hearing it any more. Wait ’til you’re a little older and have lived life before you start trying to tell others how they should live. Old Wolf

i agree except that i don’t think they have to be young.. that whole "being reborn" thing tends to make some people function on the verbal level of a child… like when my friends and i used to have philosophical discussions on the play ground.. "god is up and the devil is down.. hell is down there.. *points* you go there if you’re bad.. heaven is up there *points* that’s where gramma and sparky are…" but to be fair, i think the following song has a good point about "those types" as well: "Happy Guy" by NOFX (a band who has a self-descriptive album title, "white trash, two heebs, and a bean." the members of the band are 1 long haired white guy, 2 jewish guys from the suburbs, and a mexican. put that in your PC(p) pipe and smoke it..) he’s just a man getting through life the best he can he’s not a scientist, he programs a computer before that he sold cars to pay a student loan now he recieves pity from his family — his friends say how could he turn his back on reason worshipping a god finding truth through fear and mind control he’s just a man trying to explain how he found the word of god could make life seem less insane so he shares what he’s read, what he understands, it makes sense to him, it makes perfect sense to him, in fact he’s never seen so clearly turned his back on free will — has he lost his mind? he’d rather kneel down than take charge of his life and he knows what people think, but it doesn’t sway him he can read the writing on the wall cause he knows how people treat, how they treat eachother a sacrifice to benefit the all don’t try to judge him, his theologian ideals his hopes may be false but his happiness is real don’t try to judge him, he’s just a man. — foot note: NOFX is a band that’s very easy to interpret as sarcastic.. what happens when you try to interpret them as earnest and forthright? peace, bogsnarth ( m/ punk rawk #50926923)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

You want me to give up fornication for longsuffering? Are you an idiot? T9W

Response:

Not even the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses.  Nothing in the Bible regarding the life and teachings of Jesus is an eyewitness accounting, as it was all written at least a generation or two after the fact, and Paul’s writings came first.

Paul’s epistles are by far the oldest and are possibly the derived from the originals, yet he never mentions the virgin birth, the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord’s Prayer, the Parable of the Prodigal Sopn, the Good Samaritan or any of the miracles that have become intrinsic parts of Christian beliefs. Vas.

Response:

Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god."

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                             Re: Jesus Loves You!   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.pagan,          [3] alt.religion.wicca,          [4] alt.discordia   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god."

***ahhh what the Bible and your interp of it tells you ..you mean? "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]?

***longsuffering seems ridiculous and hey…throw in pleasure and I’m in. *NKJV

IN my opinion Brenda

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

Well, no, acutally, I quite enjoy fornication, lewdness, sorcery, drunkenness and revelries, to be honest.  Moreover, my house is full of idols that all get their turn at offerings at appropriate times. And now, a little something for you xtians who post to non-xtian newsgroups hoping to "save" us: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. (Proverbs 16:18) And how about Don’t you look at me so smug and say I’m going bad. Who are you to judge me, and the life I live? I know that I’m not perfect And that I don’t claim to be So, before you point your finger Make sure your hands are clean. Bob Marley (Romans 14:4) You know, I suspect that most of the individuals who post such stuff are very young, have had a recent conversion, and are enthusiastic about "spreading the word" to the rest of the world.  But think about this for a while; we’ve already heard it, and are not interested in hearing it any more.  Wait ’til you’re a little older and have lived life before you start trying to tell others how they should live. Old Wolf

Response:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*).

Good one, ’cause I can name countless Christians of my acquaintance who still indulge in just about all of these. "…character traits that God saves us from" indeed. These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*).

And I could list many pagans and non-Christians of many religions of my acquaintaince who embody all of these. Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]?

"His will", huh?  What about humans having free will?  Do we or don’t we choose our own paths through this world?  Is everything that happens all part of "God’s great plan for mankind", in which case I know quite a few people who would like to have a nice long discussion with him about the events of the morning of September 11, 2001, or do humans make their own decisions and mistakes without any supernatural interference?  I’ve been waiting for a Christian to give me a straight answer to that one; the few I’ve had this discussion with recently never answered it but danced around it quite nicely. Blessings, Songweaver

Response:

So, when you go to bed at night, do you dream of jesus fucking you in the ass, telling you since you let him cum in your ass you’re now saved? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft. I know your not gonna like my response…but here goes: "For every beast of the forest is Mine [God's], And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps 50:10). God created everything, so the donkey belongs to Him. They didn’t record it. Matthew did. That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference. Matthew recorded the soldiers’ lie about Christ’s disciples stealing His body. According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible? Those who witnessed the resurrection and believe in Christ incorperated the story into books that became known as the NT.  The soldiers who witnessed the resurrection created helped spread the lie so that history also claims He never rose from the dead.  Josephus, though neither an eyewitness nor a Christian, believed from his open-minded style of recording history that Jesus had indeed been raised from the dead.

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Your opinion matters! It just doesn’t matter to me.

Response:

Thanks for sharing that with me.  I never heard that theory before. I’ll check it out.

Response:

Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He also sent his disciples to steal for him. The owner of the donkey would have lent it if he were there when His disciples borrowed it. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point. My point is that it is possible to overcome the lusts of the flesh that have a tendency to pull our desires away from doing the will of God.  People can learn to enjoy a more healthful style of living, as Christ had planned for people. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s  coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection". The other people to record Jesus’ ressurection were the soldiers who guarded the tomb.  They might have been killed for not keeping watch over the tomb.  History records their way out of death: "Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, "Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure." 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." Matt 28:11-15  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please. "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379). http://www.creatingfutures.net/resurrection.html God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life. Then why do you want to shove it down our throats? Make you a deal, if I want it, I’ll come to alt.christian.sheeple, okay? I’m so happy about what Jesus has done for us that I can’t contain this blessed truth to myself.

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Your opinion matters! It just doesn’t matter to me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379). According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible?

Not even the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses.  Nothing in the Bible regarding the life and teachings of Jesus is an eyewitness accounting, as it was all written at least a generation or two after the fact, and Paul’s writings came first. The only evidence anyone has that a person called Jesus ever lived is the Bible, and that’s not even a complete volume of all the writings of the original people who called themselves "Christian".  The Gnostic writings were completely left out when the "official" Bible was put together, and they approach it in a very different manner, to the point that other "Christians" called them heretics and killed them. Nice… Blessings, Songweaver

Response:

The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft.

I know your not gonna like my response…but here goes: "For every beast of the forest is Mine [God's], And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps 50:10). God created everything, so the donkey belongs to Him. They didn’t record it. Matthew did. That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference.

Matthew recorded the soldiers’ lie about Christ’s disciples stealing His body. According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible?

Those who witnessed the resurrection and believe in Christ incorperated the story into books that became known as the NT.  The soldiers who witnessed the resurrection created helped spread the lie so that history also claims He never rose from the dead.  Josephus, though neither an eyewitness nor a Christian, believed from his open-minded style of recording history that Jesus had indeed been raised from the dead.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft. I know your not gonna like my response…but here goes: "For every beast of the forest is Mine [God's], And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps 50:10). God created everything, so the donkey belongs to Him. They didn’t record it. Matthew did. That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference. Matthew recorded the soldiers’ lie about Christ’s disciples stealing His body. According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible? Those who witnessed the resurrection and believe in Christ incorperated the story into books that became known as the NT.  The soldiers who witnessed the resurrection created helped spread the lie so that history also claims He never rose from the dead.  Josephus, though neither an eyewitness nor a Christian, believed from his open-minded style of recording history that Jesus had indeed been raised from the dead.

*I hate to do this to you because i admire you for continuing to "witness" your faith in a pagan NG. But, it is widely accepted amongst NT Scholars that the references to Jesus in Jospehus were added at a much later date by Christian scribes.

Response:

He also sent his disciples to steal for him.

The owner of the donkey would have lent it if he were there when His disciples borrowed it. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point.

My point is that it is possible to overcome the lusts of the flesh that have a tendency to pull our desires away from doing the will of God.  People can learn to enjoy a more healthful style of living, as Christ had planned for people. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s  coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection".

The other people to record Jesus’ ressurection were the soldiers who guarded the tomb.  They might have been killed for not keeping watch over the tomb.  History records their way out of death: "Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, "Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure." 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." Matt 28:11-15  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please.

"Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379). http://www.creatingfutures.net/resurrection.html God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life. Then why do you want to shove it down our throats? Make you a deal, if I want it, I’ll come to alt.christian.sheeple, okay?

I’m so happy about what Jesus has done for us that I can’t contain this blessed truth to myself.

Response:

He also sent his disciples to steal for him. The owner of the donkey would have lent it if he were there when His disciples borrowed it.

The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point. My point is that it is possible to overcome the lusts of the flesh that have a tendency to pull our desires away from doing the will of God.  People can learn to enjoy a more healthful style of living, as Christ had planned for people.

Pagans generally have a very healthful style of living. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s  coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection". The other people to record Jesus’ ressurection were the soldiers who guarded the tomb.  They might have been killed for not keeping watch over the tomb.  History records their way out of death:

They didn’t record it. Matthew did. "Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, "Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure." 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." Matt 28:11-15

That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please. "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379).

According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible? http://www.creatingfutures.net/resurrection.html God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life. Then why do you want to shove it down our throats? Make you a deal, if I want it, I’ll come to alt.christian.sheeple, okay? I’m so happy about what Jesus has done for us that I can’t contain this blessed truth to myself.

Please control yourself. Don’t call us….etc. T9W

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes you! If only you knew how much Jesus Loved you…….he was tortured and crucified to save your miserabale souls. Actually, he was just into that kind of thing. The only reason he is remembered for it, is that he made up a pretty good excuse. KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS. but, I’m all for sin, so what the fuck. He understands why you are rebelling against Him though. He knows you had a rough childhood playing Dungeons and Dragons and

actually, I wassa playing… cowboy and indians…. up ’till I was 25….always was the indian….liked to tie young pale- face female up to da stake….screw the boy scouts, I knew MO knots than most eagle scouts did by the time I was 14…. [**sighs....  in the rememberance of learning the complexities of the french bowline and that oh-so lovely cuff knot.....** ] now? NOW?  ohhhh…. I’m just a run of the mill Dominant with a prolivity for electrical play and posessing the tendency to implement pleasure/pain techniques on the spread-eagled bound (and often gagged ) female adventurist… gurdjieff 0f gormorrah

Response:

Actually, he was just into that kind of thing. The only reason he is remembered for it, is that he made up a pretty good excuse. Jesus wants His children to have a great life. "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).

…..and when thee wives have their periods, they must sleep in the barn. (direct quote from "God" there) KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS. but, I’m all for sin, so what the fuck. The Holy Spirit has the power to change your life, and you desires.  I know from personal experience.

Sure it does- he’s very jealous and petty I hear tell. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb?  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection.

Did ya know that according to the "Bible" you will burn in hell if you play football? I wonder if God wears a tin foil hat? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you people have any living people that support your views, or do you just hoist your religion on those dead, and therefore unable to tell you how stupid you are. Placing a curse on your so-called God now? I will say a ‘prayer’ for you as well. May the next sheep not be as contagious as the last, and may the syphilis that has crossed your bloodbrain barier not make you any more of a babbling idiot than it already has. KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS! but, I’m not sure if he was for or against them… God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life.

Yes, cause he’s quite jealous ya know. If he catches you looking at another guy, look out!! ^..^<  kat

"Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil, and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well." – Missy Dizick

Response:

Actually, he was just into that kind of thing. The only reason he is remembered for it, is that he made up a pretty good excuse. Jesus wants His children to have a great life. "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). He also sent his disciples to steal for him.

and they were all on drugs… eating the fallen chaff of the wheat, indeed! we all know that fermented rye grain produces ergot which can be manufactured into LSD. of course LSD wasn’t actually discovered/invented until much later, but ergot has some very potent hallucinogenic properties on its own! JESUS NEVER WALKED ON WATER, HE JUST PLAYED A JOKE ON ALL HIS TRIPPING FRIENDS! (sorry i just had to take part in the "Typing Things in Caps" game) KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS. but, I’m all for sin, so what the fuck. The Holy Spirit has the power to change your life, and you desires.  I know from personal experience. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point.

i know from personal experience not to stick paper clips into an electrical outlet. i certainly felt *Something* move through me that day, but i don’t know if i would call it Holy.. i have felt the power of the Holy Voltage! AMEN! Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection".

in this case, i think Jesus pre-empted Machiavelli. what better way to get more followers AND get your enemies off your back at the same time? i don’t know about you, but i’d do just about anything to get some time alone with Mary Magdelene without any "interruptions" from my friends.. *wiggles an eyebrow suggestively*  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please.

since we have not (to my knowledge) invented or discovered time travel yet, i see no way of testing this statement, and therefore any speculations on the subject remain merely speculations and should probably not be given the weight of Absolute Metaphysical Certitude. that being said i think he was taken back to his People on the planet Nerktwaft (yes, Nerktwaft.. got a problem with the name? take it up with the Nerktwaftian people, bub.) which appeared to the people who were preset as him "ascending to the throne of heaven." people sound funny when they don’t have accurate language to describe their experiences, hence the whole "Ressurrection and Ascension" story. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you people have any living people that support your views, or do you just hoist your religion on those dead, and therefore unable to tell you how stupid you are. Placing a curse on your so-called God now? I will say a ‘prayer’ for you as well. May the next sheep not be as contagious as the last, and may the syphilis that has crossed your bloodbrain barier not make you any more of a babbling idiot than it already has. KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS! but, I’m not sure if he was for or against them… God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life.

is there a Returns counter? God’s gift doesn’t fit very well, and i’m hoping i can trade it in towards the purchase of a PS2… man those things are awesome. peace, bogsnarth — B

Question:

There has been some discussion about the future of the Accounting Industry. Some software developers obviously would rather sell inexpensive accounting software to hundreds of millions small business owners than advice these to turn to the professionals. Many consider Accountants and CPAs a dying breed. But is it really so — or is it just that we need to ADAPT to the world as it now exists? In my opinion we have to come to grips with what it is that is VALUABLE for clients among the services of Accounting Professionals. Is it the ability to use a spread sheet software? Or to fill in tax forms?

As I see it, practising qualified  accountants miss out on the opportunities for giving management guidance to small companies. The qualified guy in business, working full-time for one company, isn’t just concerned with software. He’s there for management matters, raising finance, introducing financial performance metrics, etc and that’s what the practitioner needs to be able to provide other than audits, tax handling and possibly helping to choose software. Mention shareholder value, balanced scorecards, ABC/M, EVA, management accounting etc to a small practitioners, and too often all you get a blank look.  They don’t seem interested in helping their clients grow..

Response:

There has been some discussion about the future of the Accounting Industry. Some software developers obviously would rather sell inexpensive accounting software to hundreds of millions small business owners than advice these to turn to the professionals. Many consider Accountants and CPAs a dying breed. But is it really so — or is it just that we need to ADAPT to the world as it now exists? In my opinion we have to come to grips with what it is that is VALUABLE for clients among the services of Accounting Professionals. Is it the ability to use a spread sheet software? Or to fill in tax forms? Hardly. As people in many accounting/software related discussions well have pointed out, the software industry will find ways to substitute the CPA and/or Accountant with a program. The point that if Accounting Industry services are marketed as "charged hours" instead of BENEFITS THEREOF, it will increasingly lead to clients using a software instead… and into a lot of mistakes. However, the fact that laymen users of these software will inevitably make costly mistakes has only theoretical value UNLESS the public at large REALIZES that this is what follows from it most often. But who is going to tell them if they don’t use an Accountant and/or CPA? IRS? Each and every person is prone to believing that what he/she holds true, IS true — even if it were the misconception of the century. And if the little guy never finds out he lost money because of mistakes AND not knowing / understanding his finances during the fiscal (when something could have been DONE about them) then what can we do? As long as people feel they are paying the Accounting Professional for "unnecessary" service (or "nothing") they will attempt to do the job themselves… with consequences that often are costly and invisible to the person him/herself. The software industry is just as likely to educate people on these dangers as IRS… The ACTUAL valuable service that clients want and CAN only get from an Accounting Professional is "workable understanding of the finances of his/her business fast enough so he/she can handle any unfavorable trends and make use of any favorable trends in his/her business." Not perhaps too sophisticated a wording — but by extensive surveys true, nonetheless. To have a future, the Accounting Industry has to create one. Too long has the subject been theoretical in aspects where it doesn’t need to. Among these comes the way the service to clients is set up — and ability to speak understandably to the client. The services of Accounting Industry ARE very much wanted among the public at large. The only thing is — you need to present and deliver the services that THEY want. It’s the CLIENTS VIEWPOINT that we should build from. Too scientific an approach has lead to the public at large considering the industry just incomprehensible… and what you cannot understand you have a hard time appreciating…. and paying for. "Value" is a concept that suggest "understanding the benefits of and then considering these a good exchange for the monies paid." My opinion is, that it is this understanding that the market lacks — it takes a CPA to understand a CPA, in other words. There is a larger article on this subject and how it relates to client satisfaction AND the number of referrals your Practice gets or doesn’t get. You can get it by emailing and the article will automatically be emailed to you. Harry Kafka Free information service on CPA marketing http://www.cpamarketingtips.com Before you buy.

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Question:

Learn the software that small business people in your area are buying.  The days when accountants could tell clients what software to buy have passed (if they ever existed).

Probably 8 out of ten were probably selling product, with 50% of the remainder talking clients into using what they themselves use for ease of convenience. Perhaps it lessened a bit with the dominance of PT, QB et al but I’ll bet most recommend what they like using — rather than analyzing clients needs. We see it here all the time by some Of course, I’m one of those exceptions

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Learn the software that small business people in your area are buying.  The days when accountants could tell clients what software to buy have passed (if they ever existed). Probably 8 out of ten were probably selling product, with 50% of the remainder talking clients into using what they themselves use for ease of convenience. Perhaps it lessened a bit with the dominance of PT, QB et al but I’ll bet most recommend what they like using — rather than analyzing clients needs. We see it here all the time by some Of course, I’m one of those exceptions

Nice post. Of course, none of us really do this.  :-)  :-)      Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.                 World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester QB book/add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/       Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

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Question:

Like many amateur photographers I find that the time I can devote to my hobby is limited by work and family obligations.  Also, like many I have reached the point where I know the basics (for example, exposure, depth of field, rule of thirds, showing motion, basic composition and so on).  It is time to move up to the next level and start really improving my work.  It is time to combine the technique and artistry to produce good ( and dare I say sometimes great?) photographs.  But how does one do this? Several people have suggested that I enroll in the correspondence course offered by by the New York Institute of Photography.  I would like to hear from people who have taken this course or tried it and rejected it, or have closely known and followed somebody who has taken this course.  I want to find out how good it is and who it is directed at.  Most of all I want to find out if a person who knows the basics can significantly profit from this course.  Please don’t repsond if you have not taken the course or you don’t have a close relationship with somebody who has. The second part of this search for knowledge is to find out what books, seminiars, and other sources might a person who knows the basics use to move on.  There are a ton of books out there, but many are too basic.  I don’t need to read another book that discusses the rule of thirds or how to through a background out of focus.  The same is true for seminars.  I don’t need Mr. Famous Photographer to tell me about including a foreground in my scenic shots or focusing on the eyes of the animal.  What I need and I think many others need is to know what is the next step. One can go out and shoot a ton of film, use the brain while shooting, keep notes  and learn a lot.  But, if possible I would like to get more direction so I can learn more in the limited time I have each month to shoot.  I guess one can say the the entire point to this request for information is to make my limited shooting time a  more productive learning experience. Your knowledgable help  is appreciated.

Response:

The second part of this search for knowledge is to find out what books, seminiars, and other sources might a person who knows the basics use to move on.  There are a ton of books out there, but many are too basic.  I don’t need to read another book that discusses the rule of thirds or how to through a background out of focus.  The same is true for seminars.  I don’t need Mr. Famous Photographer to tell me about including a foreground in my scenic shots or focusing on the eyes of the animal.  What I need and I think many others need is to know what is the next step.

Just found this last Friday. Check out http://www.mountainlight.com/ Look for information about workshops Galen Rowell hosted and you can also see some result photos from the attendees. I think you can judge whether the workshop fit your need by those photos from the students. BTW, I also read a very good review from phot.net about these workshops and rate Galen as one of the best photographers that is really willing to share his visions. Eric.

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I love NYIP.  I finished 4 of 6 units and have learned a lot from it.  I started out by reading all the books in the library I could get my hands on, but felt I really needed some feedback from professionals, and NYIP gave me that.  The lessons go way beyond the basics, in my opinion, and I’m constantly reviewing the material to refresh it in my head because there’s so much to absorb.  They taught me most of what I know!  I still have a ways to go, but I think we all learn continuously throughout our lives.  I hope I never stop wanting to learn!  Let me know if you want to know more. — Jennifer Clark http://www.lightlink.com/jclark/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like many amateur photographers I find that the time I can devote to my hobby is limited by work and family obligations.  Also, like many I have reached the point where I know the basics (for example, exposure, depth of field, rule of thirds, showing motion, basic composition and so on).  It is time to move up to the next level and start really improving my work.  It is time to combine the technique and artistry to produce good ( and dare I say sometimes great?) photographs.  But how does one do this? Several people have suggested that I enroll in the correspondence course offered by by the New York Institute of Photography.  I would like to hear from people who have taken this course or tried it and rejected it, or have closely known and followed somebody who has taken this course.  I want to find out how good it is and who it is directed at.  Most of all I want to find out if a person who knows the basics can significantly profit from this course.  Please don’t repsond if you have not taken the course or you don’t have a close relationship with somebody who has. The second part of this search for knowledge is to find out what books, seminiars, and other sources might a person who knows the basics use to move on.  There are a ton of books out there, but many are too basic.  I don’t need to read another book that discusses the rule of thirds or how to through a background out of focus.  The same is true for seminars.  I don’t need Mr. Famous Photographer to tell me about including a foreground in my scenic shots or focusing on the eyes of the animal.  What I need and I think many others need is to know what is the next step. One can go out and shoot a ton of film, use the brain while shooting, keep notes  and learn a lot.  But, if possible I would like to get more direction so I can learn more in the limited time I have each month to shoot.  I guess one can say the the entire point to this request for information is to make my limited shooting time a  more productive learning experience. Your knowledgable help  is appreciated.

Response:

see http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/classes.html for info on NYIP and other photo learning resources… esp., there is a discount if you elect NYIP and wait out their "best offer" you may also want to review their materials and see if the level is right for you – much of the material is basics you may already know… personally, I recommend a local community college if you can make the class schedule – more hands-on and live feedback, often darkroom access, and more fixed time-frame – plus college credit option Oftentimes, classes are really cheap (locally, $70/semester 3 hr class) – a great way to recycle your tax dollars regards bobm — * Bronica 6×6 medium format: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronica.html site * * Medium Format Cameras: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/index.html megasite*

Response:

You might try joining a local camera club.  The club I joined meets weekly. There is slide judging every other week, a print night, and a fourth week special lecture or slide show.  The judging is done by outsiders, often pros or semi-pros who give brief but incisive comments on the work.  I can only display 2 slides a week, but looking at other member’s work and hearing the judge’s comments has been great for me.  I have gone over all the work I have ever done with a fresh eye(most of it is not very great), and more important I have been producing much better work since.  I have even won 2 first places for slides!

Response:

I understand exactly what you are telling. I was at the same situation when I decided that I will go through the NYIP course. I have done only unit 1 and sent in the results for the feedback today. I can summarise what NYIP is doing for me. It is teaching me almost everything that I already know, but consolidating all the knowledge logically. Also the feedback by professionals after looking at your work IMO is very useful, friends have long been going ooooh aaaah over my photos even if I can notice flaws. Also I want to ask some questions and the fact that a professional is there to answer the question is helpful. Last, I have found that the community college course contents are too basic for me. Hope this helps. Roby Jacob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like many amateur photographers I find that the time I can devote to my hobby is limited by work and family obligations.  Also, like many I have reached the point where I know the basics (for example, exposure, depth of field, rule of thirds, showing motion, basic composition and so on).  It is time to move up to the next level and start really improving my work.  It is time to combine the technique and artistry to produce good ( and dare I say sometimes great?) photographs.  But how does one do this? Several people have suggested that I enroll in the correspondence course offered by by the New York Institute of Photography.  I would like to hear from people who have taken this course or tried it and rejected it, or have closely known and followed somebody who has taken this course.  I want to find out how good it is and who it is directed at.  Most of all I want to find out if a person who knows the basics can significantly profit from this course.  Please don’t repsond if you have not taken the course or you don’t have a close relationship with somebody who has. The second part of this search for knowledge is to find out what books, seminiars, and other sources might a person who knows the basics use to move on.  There are a ton of books out there, but many are too basic.  I don’t need to read another book that discusses the rule of thirds or how to through a background out of focus.  The same is true for seminars.  I don’t need Mr. Famous Photographer to tell me about including a foreground in my scenic shots or focusing on the eyes of the animal.  What I need and I think many others need is to know what is the next step. One can go out and shoot a ton of film, use the brain while shooting, keep notes  and learn a lot.  But, if possible I would like to get more direction so I can learn more in the limited time I have each month to shoot.  I guess one can say the the entire point to this request for information is to make my limited shooting time a  more productive learning experience. Your knowledgable help  is appreciated.

Response:

Hi Jennifer I took the same course about 5 years ago and my opinion is that the course is simply terrific. The course consists of many excellent lessons and in my opinion it was worth every penny. It’s worth to mention how they emphasize and teach exposure technique. In the section of "Eye of the Photographer" their philosophy is  to see "the world of photography" the same way the Pros do..

Response:

The second part of this search for knowledge is to find out what books, seminiars, and other sources might a person who knows the basics use to move on.  There are a ton of books out there, but many are too basic.  I don’t need to read another book that discusses the rule of thirds or how to through a background out of focus.  The same is true for seminars.  I don’t need Mr. Famous Photographer to tell me about including a foreground in my scenic shots or focusing on the eyes of the animal.  What I need and I think many others need is to know what is the next step.

From what I’ve heard of on the medium format digest, supported from what I’ve read on their webpage, if you already have good photographic technique, you’re not going to learn anything at NYIP. If you want to become a pro photographer, I don’t think the way to do it is to "major in photography." You’re better off taking accounting/marketing courses and learning photography on the side. In the end, it’s the marketing that sells the pics. According to one web article I read, pro wedding photographers spend about 1.5 days/week on the average shooting. The rest of the time is spent dealing with customers and trying to find new customers. –Jim

Response:

Do you think the course is valuable even if you have no interest in Portrait or Wedding photography. My interest is nature and landscapes….Any help would be appreciated……Joe

Response:

Hello Jim Photographers who think they have a good  "photo technique" might find out one N.Y.I.P. course. I agree with you that marketing is essential for photographers who promote their work. Another benefit from marketing is a high level of self confidence….

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Question:

i need a accounts payable system do not want to use any other accounting funtion any recomendations ?? can quick books or one write plus or peechtree be used as a stand alone A/P (will need reports to post to existing G/L) thanks charlie

Response:

Why dont you use the simple method of PeachTree or Quicken

Response:

Question:

good luck on your final, gazelle. it sounds like you’ve prepared plenty well for it. i just wanted to say a few things… do you go to penn or drexel? you don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to. well, i "go" to penn. the word ‘go’ being used in the loosest possible way as i’ve only been accepted to penn. it’s not like i’ve actually been able too *take classes* at all. sigh.   anyhow, i’m just utterly impressed that you are still plugging along. just thought you might like to know someone out here is proud of you  :) btw, your attitude about your finals is wonderful. it was in large part my bad all-or-nothing attitude which landed me in this ever stagnating place to begin with.  this message is chock full o positive affirmation. i hope you are properly affirmed. i really mean all of it kudos, gazelle!!  :) -jana

: x-no-archive: yes : Okay, so it’s almost 1 AM, I have my accounting final tomorrow, for which : I’m totally unprepared for…not that I haven’t been studying all day long : and have done a reasonable job of keeping up with things – it’s just that : at this point I’m so bogged down in the minutae of it all… : A little while ago I was so upset about this that I was ready to start : bawling.  The last thing I want to do it flunk this class and have to take : it over again in the spring…and of course none of my usual de-stressing : techniques were working (to hell with being a leaf I say!)…and I’m at : school in West Philly and have been hearing sirens all last night and today : (I can hear more now) and it’s been driving me CRAZY! : But just now I went for a walk for some fresh air, it’s just started : snowing, just enough to dust the ground, and I’m listening to music – and I : have finally convinced myself that a test is just a test, it’s by no means : a life or death matter.  If I flunk, well, I’ll just take the class over – : there could be worse things in life.  It just doesn’t pay to agonize about : this.  I will do my best – and not stress out… : Okay, sorry for the stream of consciousness here – I think I just had to : convince myself of this.  I’m going to put on some Blues Traveler and just : chill… : By the way, this will sound REALLY bizarre, and I swear I haven’t lost my : mind (not yet at least )…but I’ve been hearing SLEIGHBELLS outside all : evening.  As Dave Barry would say, I am not making this up – I have no idea : where that noise is coming from, but I swear it’s sleighbells.  Santa? : love, : Gazelle : — : For more information about this service, send e-mail to: —

Response:

writes: But just now I went for a walk for some fresh air, it’s just started snowing, just enough to dust the ground, and I’m listening to music – and I have finally convinced myself that a test is just a test, it’s by no means a life or death matter.  If I flunk, well, I’ll just take the class over – there could be worse things in life.  It just doesn’t pay to agonize about this.  I will do my best – and not stress out…

     Good for you!  As someone who just went through it and fell a bit short of the mark, I can’t tell you it is definately not worth it.  Your support was appreciated Gazelle.  And now i hope minw will be of help to you.  Remember, Deep cleansing breaths. Hazel "A greater knowledge the mind will seek,  unaware, the goal, the heart does keep.                                                   -Me

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Question:

Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time.

Response:

Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time.

I’m in the office of my neurologist about 40 seconds. He takes my pulse, asks me how I’ve been and if I want more presciptions. Then he bills my insurance $60 bucks. Still, he’s helped me with my migraines. Many others didn’t even try. Dan —                 Daniel H. Carlson                 Susan A. Carlson                         West Palm Beach, Florida                                            http://home.earthlink.net/~freewaver

Response:

I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he swallows a gallon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same  time.

That has to be one of the best descriptions I’ve ever heard of a migraine!  One more thing – tell the doctor to imagine his head is being squeezed by a giant vise, and the cement someone poured in his ears is hardening.  : ) Kathy K.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time. I’m in the office of my neurologist about 40 seconds. He takes my pulse, asks me how I’ve been and if I want more presciptions. Then he bills my insurance $60 bucks. Still, he’s helped me with my migraines. Many others didn’t even try. Dan —                 Daniel H. Carlson                 Susan A. Carlson                         West Palm Beach, Florida                                            http://home.earthlink.net/~freewaver

Dan, how did he help you with your migraines? Susan

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Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time.

*MAN*  Do you ever need a NEW Neurologist!   My experience with doctors in chronological order: 1970 – Madigan Gen Hosp (Air force) – given I don’t know what, but I was *GONE* for 3 days from 1 injection 1971 – 1985 – in the Military, just toughed it out . . . Docs didn’t believe in pain, I guess . . . 1985 – diagnosed as sinus infection, given nasal spray (which obviously did NOTHING 1986 – 1990 CAT scan and MRI – checked for cancer – diagnosed as secondary complication arising from being hit by a truck (truck doing about 60mph, I was pedestrian) – put on muscle relaxants and went to Chiropractor. 1991 – 1992 Diagnosed by several different doctors as 1. sinus infection (again, *sigh*)  2. cancer (Cat again killed THAT one) 3. secondary complications from accident (again with the robaxin and chiropractic) 4. yet ANOTHER doc calls it a sinus infection.  5. simple migraine. 1993 – FINALLY!!!!  My G.P. (family doctor) CORRECTLY diagnoses me as having clusters!!! 1994 – regular meds stop working, see Neurologist – tried all kinds of stuff (including Oxygen – oxygen didn’t stop pain, but made me RANDY as all get-out!) Neuro did little good, my G.P. STILL gives best advice. 1995 – see new neuro – tries new meds (stadol, vicodin, and Imitrex). They work pretty good. 1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while) In all this time, I’ve had 2 doctors who did any good, and I’ve stuck with them!  My G.P., and one Neurologist.   If you have to go through a number of doctors to find one who will help, it’s WELL WORTH the search!  A doctor who believes that you are REALLY in pain will do what’s necessary to help you, and they are a God-send!!! Good luck! Live Long and Prosper J. Michael Phillips http://www.eskimo.com/~wizkidm/

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1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while)

(sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors? btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Fenway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

Response:

1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while)

(sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors? btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Benway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

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1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while) (sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors?

 . . . and you thought I was joking . . . The voodoo is aimed at the headaches.  I’m going to withhold the name/description of the treatment until it’s had a chance to work, so that it isn’t prejudiced by well-meaning people on the Internet telling WHY it can’t work . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Fenway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                the cross before me, the world behind me                             no turning back

Live Long and Prosper J. Michael Phillips http://www.eskimo.com/~wizkidm/

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Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?

Russell my doctor came right out and told me last thursday that he would much rather try to handle most of the problems over the phone.  I don’t know…maybe I’m too grumpy when I have a headache and since I always have a headache maybe I am always grumpy??? Karen

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i have the best neurologist on the planet…bar none. she is my third neuro…i love her because she CARES. Ah….the missing ingredient in most neuros….CARING!! she is at UCLA….email me if you want more info. Scott S….. PS, the reason she cares?…she is a migraine sufferer herself!

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I’m in the office of my neurologist about 40 seconds. He takes my pulse, asks me how I’ve been and if I want more presciptions. Then he bills my insurance $60 bucks. Still, he’s helped me with my migraines. Many others didn’t even try.

I’m starting to get in that situation, going to the office for new prescriptions for something the Doctor has already diagnosed, no change in the condition, and little or no examination.  I’m not complaining, but I do have some questions. Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often. Russell Van Zandt

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Why are you on a 7-month waiting list for neurologists? It only takes a few more years than that to hatch a new one.   Marnette

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while) (sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors? btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Benway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

Hi Bruce, Are you in New Zealand?  How do they handle the msg labeling there? Susan not Jerry

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writes: Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often. Russell Van Zandt

Hi Russell, My neuro has seen me exactly twice in person since first going to her in May of this year.  It takes me two months to get in to see her by appointment.  HOWEVER….she does EVERTHING possible by phone.  She told me that she has so many people coming to her office, that she actually prefers doing whatever she can by phone….after all, all she does is talk with me and prescribe meds. this week alone, i think i talked to her 4 times.  once was on her cell phone for 15 MINUTES!!! she is great…hope you can find one like her. Scott S.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone? Russell my doctor came right out and told me last thursday that he would much rather try to handle most of the problems over the phone.  I don’t know…maybe I’m too grumpy when I have a headache and since I always have a headache maybe I am always grumpy??? Karen

Karen and Russell, I think the reason we "migraineurs" (I love that title,,,,arent we important) hesitate to be treated by phone is because doctors are really shitty (sorry) about calling back.  sometimes docs dont even call back, as you are then stuck talking to a stupid receptionist who could care less if you have a stroke. My neuro, who i first saw in May of this year, gave me her pager number and said, "if you need anything, call me."…..I remember thinking, "yeah….right."  I have called MANY times since….she calls me back within an hour….she also gave me specific instructions to page her again if i dont hear from her in one hour…as she is human and forgets things…imagine that..i have a neurologist who cops out to being human!!! i find it wonderful to be able to be treated quickly by phone and not have to make an appointment and wait in line at her office. hope all of you can find a neuro as good as mine….by the way, she is a migraineur herself……think that makes a difference?? Scott S.

Response:

i have the best neurologist on the planet…bar none. she is my third neuro…i love her because she CARES. Ah….the missing ingredient in most neuros….CARING!! PS, the reason she cares?…she is a migraine sufferer herself!

After talking to many people in the health care system in the past several months, I too have found that I get much more respect from people who have migraines themselves.  Others tend to have little sympathy and sometimes I’ve even experienced prejudice from those who know little about the cause of migraine.  It’s especially difficult dealing with ignorant people where I work.  People with chronic headaches tend to be ostracized.  Everyone I work with seems to know what’s causing my headaches and what the cure is. I’m glad you have finally found a decent doctor Scott. John Draeger

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often. Russell Van Zandt Hi Russell, My neuro has seen me exactly twice in person since first going to her in May of this year.  It takes me two months to get in to see her by appointment.  HOWEVER….she does EVERTHING possible by phone.  She told me that she has so many people coming to her office, that she actually prefers doing whatever she can by phone….after all, all she does is talk with me and prescribe meds. this week alone, i think i talked to her 4 times.  once was on her cell phone for 15 MINUTES!!! she is great…hope you can find one like her. Scott S.

Scott, where do you live?  She sounds like a neurologist from heaven. Susan, not Jerry

Response:

Why are you on a 7-month waiting list for neurologists? It only takes a few more years than that to hatch a new one.  

This has been a BITCH of a day so I’ll explain.  This could take a while. [I'll also cross-post to nz.politics, as we have an election this weekend and there may be lucky fortunates reading who haven't dealt with our health system yet, and certain parties are pushing health as a main issue.  As they should.  So I'll assume anyone who posts followups will send them to appropriate places.] [I'll also make liberal use of footnotes.  You're on your own.] Lessee… physio, headache starts, dr tries amitriptylene, various painkillers, stopping physio from doing more harm.  Drop out of varsity and forced to find new dr, who refers me to community health who decide I’m high risk o/d so bounce me off to a psych outpatient service (known as the kindergarten, but never mind).  Whose sole use is to put me on the waiting list for the hospital’s physio dept (as the – new – private physio was saying ACC[1] won’t pay for this much longer; O her prophetic soul…), aside from sending me off to an osteopath[2]. Eventually I make it to the hospital physio.  Who puts heat packs on, gives me exercises that only made things worse (anyone else with something that appears to be a chronic muscle-contraction headache, caused by accident/trauma, found the same thing?), and tells me I should be seeing the Pain Clinic (which she’s seconded to).  Hope.  (This was, um, sometime around the New Year.  Say eight months in.) So this goes back to my dr (actually, another one; the previous new dr dropped out of practice), with a request to send me back to the orthapaedic surgeon who’d put me on to the physio who started this whole mess in the first place to see what -she- intended doing.  Not a thing, but hey.  Meantime my dr sits on the Pain Clinic referral as "Margaret’s [the O.S.] doing it."  (No she isn’t, YOU are.)  A few visits later, this gets sorted out, he makes the referral.  This was probably March. Sometime after this my ACC case mangler, sorry, manager, is sent off for three month’s training[10].  I learn this after being told by him after asking about -yet another- physio referral that had the physio saying "… but they have a treatment limit… they won’t be paying for this," "Sure, go ahead, no prob, send the form in, I’ll take care of it, there’s no treatment limit," only to get a letter back from someone else saying I get diddly squat (other than a NZ$180 bill for the visits to date on that referral)[3].  This was (counts on fingers) five months back.  No physio since.  Hell, nothing since but painkillers and sleeping pills.  (Imovane [aka zopiclone], and I’m keeping them to a minimum and cursing the aftertaste every day.) About this time my dr is getting letters from ACC asking what treatments he’s looking at and when a return to work[4] could be expected.  He doesn’t reply because "I didn’t know what form to use." Which I believe, even though a month-dead dingo would be able to work out that what they want is a letter.  Of course, he doesn’t think to ask the case mangler (who even, thoughtfully, provided a return name, address, and phone number), his collegues, or even me.  So we sort this out, he yet again fails to think of anything constructive to do, and I hit him for as many months’ worth of scripts as I can get in one go and start hunting for a new one. Sometime around then I get an invitation to mosey along to the Pain Clinic.  Great! until I look at the time, figure the odds of being able to say anything coherant let alone useful – or, for that matter, of getting to the hospital without crashing – and call them up and ask if there’s any chance of having the appointment changed.  I’m still optimistic, here.  Sure, we’ll be in touch. Anyway, I don’t hear anything, so call back, call back, call back, and eventually get through to one of the drs.  He’s a little annoyed that I’d got him instead of the receptionist, but says yep, that’s a good point, I’ll get her to call you back. And we repeat.  This time, I -finally- get an answering machine the day before the original (and presumed cancelled) appointment, and so I figure I’d better just be ready in the morning. Next am, call up, no, they’re not expecting me, "But I did try to call" she tells me.  Uh-huh.  When’s the new appointment?  "I’ll call you back." A few blood pressure points higher it turns out she hasn’t -made- a new appointment, but she tried calling me -once- and no, she didn’t send me any mail about it.   About this time I figure out the problem with our falling-to-the- ground health system isn’t -just- the managers who’ve appeared out of nowhere[5], but has more than a little to do with the bottom feeders they hire[6].  Bear with me, we *are* getting to the point. Some time later, I get an appointment card with a *very* tetchy note attached to the effect that I wasn’t home the one time she tried calling, Shame On Me, for Thursday the 7th of October[7].  And track down one of the drs concerned, and scream that there’s no WAY I’m going to cope till then, and is there -any- chance of seeing him outside the clinic before then?  No, but why haven’t you seen a neurologist yet?  From which it transpires that he doesn’t want to do -anything- without me having been seen by a neurologist yet, and what the hell does your dr think he’s doing sending you to us before trying that? Good point, after having been on their waiting list seven months. So, I storm in to my dr’s to put the same question, get a referral, and collect my file (after phoning ahead and not being able to get hold of him).  No luck, I just get his colleague, who doesn’t see the point of a referral and won’t make one. My new dr is the first one I’d (a) heard -one- good word-of-mouth of, (b) whose receptionist wanted to know why I hadn’t been sent to a neurologist, and (c) might possibly be able to fill in referrals without drooling on them.  Though I still have reservations about her, but she’s at least considered the possibility of migraines being involved and complicating things. So, now I’m on the semi-urgent waiting list of the hospital’s neurology dept, who won’t put me on the (month-long) urgent list[8].  At a guess, they’ve made the same call I have: if it’s a tumour, he’d be dead by now anyway.  (Though suddenly there’s a run of strokes in the family that I’m getting vaguely nervous about.)  And it turns out that "Thursday the 7th" doesn’t mean "Monday the 7th" or even "Thursday the 10th"; it means "Thursday the 17th".  Fsck(1m)[11].  After phoning several times – *never* getting the receptionist – I get the same answer, from a different dr, to the same pleading.  No, he doesn’t see the point of seeing me without a neurologist’s opinion, no, he won’t see me outside the clinic, no, he won’t even put me on the physio waiting list (a week and a half for clinic patients; about four months otherwise.  Damn. It’s been five since I last had any physio… never *mind* that this one did stuff all).  Ask your dr to talk to neurology about being put on the urgent list. In the meantime: psych don’t care -how- desperate things are (if I’m willing to trade a few nights in the hellhole wards here just on the chance it’ll move me up one of the lists I’m on, things are DESPERATE), emergency won’t do anything besides tell me to have my dr refer me to a neurologist and stick pathadeine in my leg, and I’ve got no chance of being able to afford regular private physio, let alone a neurologist. Maybe, just maybe, the Pain Clinic will be able to convince Neurology to move me up.  But what, really, could I hope to gain from that? Only Managed Health could be worse than this mess. Marnette

butting [1] ACC – Accident Compensation Corporation, which -did- cover health costs resulting from accidents, with all sorts of useful no-fault clauses, until it was decided that taking away most of the cover but withholding right-to-sue would be a Good Thing. [2] and claiming that ACC would cover, so dammit, you’re not doing enough, make a <censored appointment with her.  Only to find -after- the visit that I’d been referred by someone who had not a clue what an ACC referral was, let alone being authorised to make one, and ACC won’t accept bills after the fact. [3] and although I’m on the Sickness Benefit, I don’t qualify for the allowance that covers regular treatment because an accident was involved, which makes it an ACC matter, even if they DO have a treatment cap and wash their hands of a case after n treatments. Scream. [4] of course, being a student at the time this started confuses things somewhat.  I’m not entitled to any earnings compensation, because my earnings for the previous year were frankly pitiful, and having open- offer drool-worthy-salary jobs available for "when I’m available for work again" is irrelevant under the legislation. [5] true story: one was told that the post-natal ward they were responsible for needed more ventilators.  Several weeks later some carpenters turn up to measure up for air ducts.  True story #2: the auditors brought in to ensure that one of our public hospitals is being run as properly befits a business were muttering dark things about "going concerns" and threatening to refuse to ok the books.  I hope, I hope I hope I *hope*, it comes to this.  Then, maybe, someone will learn. [6] the entire surgical staff of the Ear Nose & Throat dept has just resigned en masse.  Unfortunately, I’m on -their- waiting list as well; and after an examination, being told "ok, we’ll operate," being sent off for a pre-surgery blood test and CT scan (sinuses only, unfortunately, and they -won’t- give me an electronic copy to play with and keep myself occupied) and being told to wait to be scheduled for surgery, I’ve dropped into a black hole. [7] you are entitled to go "yer wha’?"  I didn’t think to check. Duh. [8] I … read more »

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Zandt) writes: Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often.

Russell, I have appointments set every 30 days. If the headaches haven’t changed and the patterns remain about the same, I call and cancel. Then I just speak to a Nurse and get refills of my regular Meds. With the recent addition of Lithium and the required *off period* for my sansert, I’ve been going in quite regularly. Bob

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Damn, Bryce, I already knew I was against the U.S. subsidizing health care.  And I thought our health system was in a downward spiral.  Damn.  No wonder you have a headache. Marnette

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Damn, Bryce, I already knew I was against the U.S. subsidizing health care.  And I thought our health system was in a downward spiral.  Damn.  No wonder you have a headache.

Actually, ours has been making the opposite journey – fully state- funded (our health/education/social welfare/superannuation system was once one of the best -anywhere-) to part-state-funded/part-private- insurance/weasel-holes-everywhere. What this means is that the tax take supposedly goes into funding the public health system (don’t ask about the others…), which was a national system but is now a collection of "Crown Health Enterprises", now responsible only for patients in their own area except for special circumstances (what was a national women’s hospital[1] is now really open only to Auckland patients, heart and cancer waiting lists vary wildly between regions, etc., etc.), each with massive waiting lists in various fields (as I mentioned, 18 months for ENT, 7 months for neurology, here in the Waikato; others I can’t speak for).  The bit that makes the accountants rub their hands with glee is that waiting lists can be jumped if you are prepared to pay for the treatment that *your taxes are subsidising anyway*. This’ll happen anywhere during a transitional period.  I figure the important questions are "Is the target solution worth it?", and "Can we plan around it?"  Here, the answers would probably have been "No" and "Why bother?" – in the States, it looks like you’re trying to solve the opposite mess, which’ll involve a similar process.  I’d say watch out for the private interests, but I think most of you have found that out already… Marnette

butting [1] I think the one of a huuuuge scandal some time back; a non- consentual experiment to see what would happen to cancer patients if treatment was withheld, effectively.  (This is the same country where a DC-10 that slammed into the side of an Antarctic mountain on account of the flight plan being changed without the knowledge of the flight crew, I should probably point out.)  This sort of thing is partly among the reasons (probably more like an excuse) for handing the system over to private insurance companies to scrap it out over.  Bad move. — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

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this week alone, i think i talked to her 4 times.  once was on her cell phone for 15 MINUTES!!! she is great…hope you can find one like her.

Scott, I think you should ask her if she has an E-mail address so we could send her a thank you note. She sounds like somebody that deserves a pat on the back. Bob

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Question:

: : I ordered some Muira Puama from Raintree Marketing early in February. : They cashed my check on Feb 14th and it’s now March 15th and I still : DO NOT have the shipment.  I sent them e-mail about ten days ago and Just wanted to follow-up and let everyone know that I have heard from Raintree and they apologized sufficiently and say they will be sending the product overnight delivery, today.  I’ll let you know if it doesn’t make it. —    ,o888b,`?~~~~~                                           ~~~~~P’,d888o,  8888888P’    ~~~                                           ~~~     ?8888888  888P’        ~~~     "When all the World recognizes        ~~~        `?888  `88   O     d~~~       good as good, This in itself        ~~~b     O   88′    `?._  _.o~~~~~       is Evil." Lao Tsu                   ~~~~~o._  _.P’

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ordered some Muira Puama from Raintree Marketing early in February. They cashed my check on Feb 14th and it’s now March 15th and I still DO NOT have the shipment.  I sent them e-mail about ten days ago and it was ignored.  I called them yesterday and got a recording and I left a message.  Still no response as of yet. Is this NORMAL?  I thought maybe I could get some response by posting this here, since I’ve seen them posting when they want to advertise their presence to all you prospective customers out in net-land. So, Raintree, are you folks just out there collecting money from folks who are gullible or are you really selling products that you can deliver John, I like your style. I wish it were this easy to discredit some of the traditional merchants downtown and at the malls. If it were maybe we could go back to the " good old days " when service meant something and merchants took pride in providing it to their customers. Don’t know about you but when I buy something, I want to be appreciated for spending my money with them http://te.wilmington.net

I think people should think about ramifications to themselves and others in this international formum first before being so quick to discredit someone.  I work for the parent company of Raintree Marketing, The Raintree Group.   I haven’t had the time to participate in these newsgroups lately but checked in last night and found this post.  I was quite distressed to see this so checked it out when I got to the office this morning. John O’Brien did place an order for muira puama and sent in a personal check with his order.  The policy is to wait until personal checks clear the bank before sending out orders because approximately 10-15% of the personal checks received bounce and the policy is to just not fill the order rather than legally pursuing someone for a hot check.  If our accounting department doesn’t log the check correctly when deposited, there is a chance that the order doesn’t ever make it to the fulfillment department.  Out of thousands of orders this has happened three times, and unfortunately it did happen with Mr. O’brien. When Mr. O’Brien called about his order, the entire marketing department was attending the annual Natural Products Expo in California where Raintree had a booth featuring their products.  Since he called in on the marketing department’s phone lines(on the 14th), he got a recorder.  Most of the company attended the show and was gone from March 14th returning March 19.  As soon as the messages were sorted through, someone returned Mr. O’Brian’s call (on the 20th), and looked into his order.   Since it was our fault the check was improperly recorded, he was sent two bottles of muira puama instead of one, AND it was sent to him overnight by Federal Express at the company’s expense.  Raintree actually lost money in this transaction, but it has always been our policy to make things right when we make mistakes. And yes, occasionally they make mistakes just like everyone else. They’re not perfect and they do deal with lots of orders on a daily basis. But I notice that Mr. O’Brian didn’t follow up with his original post that flamed and discredited Raintree when his order was resolved in this manner. The frustrating point is that had the company known of his flaming post prior to resolving his order, it still would have been handled in this manner. I have worked for Raintree for two years and they are a honest and ethical company.  The owners allow me to post information on usenet about many products we research  that consumers don’t have access to despite the legal liability the company is exposed to when it involves unethical products or incorrect marketing claims that I discredit with my posts.  And there ARE legal liabilities involved when someone starts unfairly discrediting businesses in an international forum like this one.  I think we best all remember that and not be so quick to flame or so reluctant to retract them when in error. Leslie Taylor The Raintree Group, Inc. 2949 W. Anderson Ln, Ste 175 Austin, Texas 78757

Response:

Leslie: This was a nice post.  But I do seem to recall seeing a follow-up post, a day or two after the original one, indicating that everything had been sorted out.  Because when I read the original I thought, "Oh great.  Just what we need.  Like trying to talk in the forum isn’t difficult enough….now someone is being scammed right here."  And then a couple of days later I read something and said, "Oh, good.  It was all just a misunderstanding." So, don’t sweat it.  My thoughts of Raintree are not negative anymore, and, as a matter of truth, my opinion of them is very positive after reading how you handled this situation.  It showed style! Take good care, Kelly

Response:

WHINE, WHINE, WHINE…Don’t you have anything better to do with your time and this and other newsgroup’s bandwidth.  Keep your dirty laundry to yourself.  I have been buying products from Raintree for quite a while and know Leslie Taylor quite well.  The company, the products and Ms. Taylor are first clas.  You say that you did’nt get your product until the day after it was suppossed to be overnighted to you…WWWAAAA!!!.   You poor thing! A Raintree product user and supporter. D Watkins.

Response:

: So, Raintree, are you folks just out there collecting money from folks : who are gullible or are you really selling products that you can deliver : John O’Brien did place an order for muira puama and sent in : a personal check with his order.  The policy is to wait : until personal checks clear the bank before sending out : orders because approximately 10-15% of the personal checks : received bounce and the policy is to just not fill the : order rather than legally pursuing someone for a hot check. I’m really sorry this had to happen folks because I was really quite satisfied with the extra bottle of M.P. which Raintree sent to me and I said so yesterday in my follow-up post.  I think Ms Leslie has gone off of the deep end with all the accusations and attemped intimidations. Believe me she and I have been going back and forth with e-mail all day today and she still isn’t relenting. My personal check cleared on Feb 14th and I waited until March 14th before complaining.  I think I was justified. :  If our accounting department doesn’t log the check : correctly when deposited, there is a chance that the order : doesn’t ever make it to the fulfillment department.  Out of : thousands of orders this has happened three times, and : unfortunately it did happen with Mr. O’brien. See, she admits right here that they screwed up.  So why doesn’t she just leave it at that.  Believe it or not folks, she has threatened me with a law suit today. : When Mr. O’Brien called about his order, the entire : marketing department was attending the annual Natural : Products Expo in California where Raintree had a booth : featuring their products.  Since he called in on the : marketing department’s phone lines(on the 14th), he got a : recorder.  Most of the company attended the show and was : gone from March 14th returning March 19.  As soon as the : messages were sorted through, someone returned Mr. : O’Brian’s call (on the 20th), and looked into his order.   : Since it was our fault the check was improperly recorded, : he was sent two bottles of muira puama instead of one, AND : it was sent to him overnight by Federal Express at the : company’s expense.  Raintree actually lost money in this : transaction, but it has always been our policy to make : things right when we make mistakes. And yes, occasionally : they make mistakes just like everyone else. They’re not : perfect and they do deal with lots of orders on a daily : basis. Again she admits to their mistake but I have to question why did their entire company have to go to this Expo.  Shouldn’t someone be taking care of business.  As for the overnight delivery;  I think the delivery company took them for a ride.  I was contacted by phone by a very apologetic representative of Raintree on Tuesday early evening and he stated the package would go out the very next day (Wed) and I would receive it Thursday.  Did that happen?   NO it didn’t.  I received the package on Friday morning.   I get mail-order prescriptions all the time to treat my Multiple Sclerosis and from the time when I call my refill in to the time that it is in my mail box is always 3 days.  Sometimes 2 and that is regular mail. : But I notice that Mr. O’Brian didn’t follow up with his : original post that flamed and discredited Raintree when his : order was resolved in this manner. The frustrating point is : that had the company known of his flaming post prior to : resolving his order, it still would have been handled in : this manner. If anyone hasn’t read my follow-up I’m enclosing it here.  I also made a follow-up on Wednesday last recounting my phone conversation (see above) with Raintree and saying that I would follow-up again when I received the package.  Which I did do. Path: power.ci.uv.es!news.rediris.es!news.belnet.be!news.sri.ucl.ac.be!jussieu.fr !math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.int ernetmci.com!guitar.sound.net!echo!obriens Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative Organization: Sound Advice Limited’s Internet Access for KC Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: echo.sound.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Just wanted to let you  know that my Muiura Puama finally arrived Friday from Raintree (almost as they promised).  They threw in a extra bottle to accentuate their apology.   If you recall; I ordered this in very early February and my  payment (check) was cashed on Feb 14th and nothing happened after that till I started complaining here and on the phone. (signature deleted)_ : I have worked for Raintree for two years and they are a : honest and ethical company.  The owners allow me to post : information on usenet about many products we research  that : consumers don’t have access to despite the legal liability : the company is exposed to when it involves unethical : products or incorrect marketing claims that I discredit : with my posts.  And there ARE legal liabilities involved : when someone starts unfairly discrediting businesses in an : international forum like this one.  I think we best all : remember that and not be so quick to flame or so reluctant : to retract them when in error. : Leslie Taylor : The Raintree Group, Inc. I really believe you, Leslie.  I am completely happy with Raintree. It’s you who has hurt Raintree more than I could ever do with my completely valid complaint.  The above paragraph contains a thinly veiled threat but you all should see the out and out threats she made to me via e-mail.  If she was working for my company she sure wouldn’t be there for another 2 years.  2 days, maybe. —    ,o888b,`?~~~~~                                           ~~~~~P’,d888o,  8888888P’    ~~~                                           ~~~     ?8888888  888P’        ~~~     "When all the World recognizes        ~~~        `?888  `88   O     d~~~       good as good, This in itself        ~~~b     O   88′    `?._  _.o~~~~~       is Evil." Lao Tsu                   ~~~~~o._  _.P’

Response:

I ordered some Muira Puama from Raintree Marketing early in February. They cashed my check on Feb 14th and it’s now March 15th and I still DO NOT have the shipment.  I sent them e-mail about ten days ago and it was ignored.  I called them yesterday and got a recording and I left a message.  Still no response as of yet. Is this NORMAL?  I thought maybe I could get some response by posting this here, since I’ve seen them posting when they want to advertise their presence to all you prospective customers out in net-land. So, Raintree, are you folks just out there collecting money from folks who are gullible or are you really selling products that you can deliver

John, I like your style. I wish it were this easy to discredit some of the traditional merchants downtown and at the malls. If it were maybe we could go back to the " good old days " when service meant something and merchants took pride in providing it to their customers. Don’t know about you but when I buy something, I want to be appreciated for spending my money with them http://te.wilmington.net

Response:

I ordered some Muira Puama from Raintree Marketing early in February. They cashed my check on Feb 14th and it’s now March 15th and I still DO NOT have the shipment.  I sent them e-mail about ten days ago and it was ignored.  I called them yesterday and got a recording and I left a message.  Still no response as of yet. Is this NORMAL?  I thought maybe I could get some response by posting this here, since I’ve seen them posting when they want to advertise their presence to all you prospective customers out in net-land. So, Raintree, are you folks just out there collecting money from folks who are gullible or are you really selling products that you can deliver? —    ,o888b,`?~~~~~                                           ~~~~~P’,d888o,  8888888P’    ~~~                                           ~~~     ?8888888  888P’        ~~~     "When all the World recognizes        ~~~        `?888  `88   O     d~~~       good as good, This in itself        ~~~b     O   88′    `?._  _.o~~~~~       is Evil." Lao Tsu                   ~~~~~o._  _.P’

Response: