I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bu-bu-but everybody does it, don’t they? I live in Wisconsin and make a living selling some products online. I process payments with offshore merchant accounts and have my money in an offshore bank, so basically I put enough in my bank account to pay bills, which right now is rent. I feel I run the money through the appropriate places now to avoind detection by the IRS. I make a good living at this and Ive only been doing it 10 months. So far Ive paid no taxes, and I dont want to pay taxes on all the income. Can I get some help on setting up a "business" to legitmize some income so I can buy a house etc? Id like to say that i do internet marketing consultation or some shit and just declare a modest income. Can someone point me in the right direction as far as filing taaxes, getting a business recognized and any other info. thanks Mike I suspect that very shortly you will get some definite instructions from the IRS and the State of Wisconsin. They both have very instructive ways in which to point you in the right direction. You have given them and many others good directions in which to properly contact you. Good luck in your adventure! Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation
I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form.
Smoooooth! Nice Recovery, Mike! Tony
I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form.
<snip Mike, in your first post you stated that you were effectivly hiding your income from the IRS to avoid taxes and that you didn’t want to pay taxes on all of your income. That is very different from not knowing how to pay taxes (one call to the IRS and you get all kinds of free information). Now that you NEED an income tax return in order to buy a home, you want to show enough income but not ALL. Annamarie
I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form. Smoooooth! Nice Recovery, Mike! Tony
why am i in accounting its boring
Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form. <snip Mike, in your first post you stated that you were effectivly hiding your income from the IRS to avoid taxes and that you didn’t want to pay taxes on all of your income. That is very different from not knowing how to pay taxes (one call to the IRS and you get all kinds of free information). Now that you NEED an income tax return in order to buy a home, you want to show enough income but not ALL. Annamarie
hmm looking over some info, doesnt look to be too difficult. Got a worksheet for self employment tax. Not to hard at all
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks for the input by everyone, I get what you are saying. Im just a lil confused cause this all came very fast to me and i have little in the way of records. i will go to irs.gov and get proper forms and do the best i can with what I have…thanks again Another possible source of information is a Wisconsin CPA. I can pretty much guarantee that a CPA will tell you: – selling products on the Internet is not "a non-conventional form". – an ethical professional accountant, or one who wants to keep his licence, will not help you "fabricate where money comes from" or "avoind detection by the IRS". A CPA will help you: – set up a proper business structure. – account for your business activities. – prepare and submit tax returns. – pay taxes. Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form. <snip Mike, in your first post you stated that you were effectivly hiding your income from the IRS to avoid taxes and that you didn’t want to pay taxes on all of your income. That is very different from not knowing how to pay taxes (one call to the IRS and you get all kinds of free information). Now that you NEED an income tax return in order to buy a home, you want to show enough income but not ALL. Annamarie
thanks for the input by everyone, I get what you are saying. Im just a lil confused cause this all came very fast to me and i have little in the way of records. i will go to irs.gov and get proper forms and do the best i can with what I have…thanks again – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another possible source of information is a Wisconsin CPA. I can pretty much guarantee that a CPA will tell you: – selling products on the Internet is not "a non-conventional form". – an ethical professional accountant, or one who wants to keep his licence, will not help you "fabricate where money comes from" or "avoind detection by the IRS". A CPA will help you: – set up a proper business structure. – account for your business activities. – prepare and submit tax returns. – pay taxes. Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form. <snip Mike, in your first post you stated that you were effectivly hiding your income from the IRS to avoid taxes and that you didn’t want to pay taxes on all of your income. That is very different from not knowing how to pay taxes (one call to the IRS and you get all kinds of free information). Now that you NEED an income tax return in order to buy a home, you want to show enough income but not ALL. Annamarie
There are legal tax havens that corporations use to shield foreign source income from high foreign tax rates. The tax havens you are talking about most likely shields US source income. Since you are a resident of the US and of a state, not reporting this income is tax evasion, which is a felony. Most of us here are CPAs. Any advice we could give you, other than to contact the IRS to discuss the procedures to declare this income and to consult a tax attorney for your own legal protection, could be grounds for termination of our licenses by our state boards.
Not reporting ALL sources of income is the easiest way to end up in Federal prison. It is better to be agressive on reporting deductions to lower the amount of tax due. Gene
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form. <snip Mike, in your first post you stated that you were effectivly hiding your income from the IRS to avoid taxes and that you didn’t want to pay taxes on all of your income. That is very different from not knowing how to pay taxes (one call to the IRS and you get all kinds of free information). Now that you NEED an income tax return in order to buy a home, you want to show enough income but not ALL. Annamarie
Another possible source of information is a Wisconsin CPA. I can pretty much guarantee that a CPA will tell you: – selling products on the Internet is not "a non-conventional form". – an ethical professional accountant, or one who wants to keep his licence, will not help you "fabricate where money comes from" or "avoind detection by the IRS". A CPA will help you: – set up a proper business structure. – account for your business activities. – prepare and submit tax returns. – pay taxes.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered I dont know if i made this clear, I havent paid taxes cause i dont know exactly how to. And I have till april 15th to do so. I need info on how one does this when their income is from a non-conventional form. <snip Mike, in your first post you stated that you were effectivly hiding your income from the IRS to avoid taxes and that you didn’t want to pay taxes on all of your income. That is very different from not knowing how to pay taxes (one call to the IRS and you get all kinds of free information). Now that you NEED an income tax return in order to buy a home, you want to show enough income but not ALL. Annamarie
You guys arent all that smart, there are plenty of ways to protect money from taxes, why do you think offshore banks even exist.. as tax havens.. I see noone here really wants to provide anything constructive..I just need the forms i need to fill out.. I dont have receipts for anything, and dont even know how much I earned, especially after expenses..Sort of came on really fast.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, I’m sure we all would "rather not declare all [our] income", but there is this small thing called the Law. Most of us are allergic to prison garb, the smell of concrete walls, institutional food, and gang showers. but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. You have to declare what you make (after business expenses). I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered Well, that may have to do with state incorporation or local trade name registration. Your best bet would be to find (and I’d recomend) a local Tax Attorney, since it sounds like you have to start building your defense strategy from day one. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
You guys arent all that smart, there are plenty of ways to protect money from taxes,
Of course there are. Go to google and search on "tax haven". You’ll get plenty of hits. why do you think offshore banks even exist.. as tax havens..
As tax havens – and to prey on guys like you. I see noone here really wants to provide anything constructive..
Of course we don’t. No one here is dumb enough to aid and abet a fraud in a public newsgroup. If I were going to sell such advice (I don’t) I would do it very carefully and quietly, and for big bucks. There are those who do sell such advice, however you won’t find them here. I just need the forms i need to fill out..
http://www.irs.gov/ I dont have receipts for anything, and dont even know how much I earned, especially after expenses..Sort of came on really fast..
You do have a problem. Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA (Certified Fraud Examiner, Certified Public Accountant)
You guys arent all that smart, there are plenty of ways to protect money from taxes, why do you think offshore banks even exist.. as tax havens.. I see noone here really wants to provide anything constructive..I just need the forms i need to fill out.. I dont have receipts for anything, and dont even know how much I earned, especially after expenses..Sort of came on really fast..
What they are trying to tell you is that what you are proposing to do is illegal. — Todd Stephens
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – defense strategy? umm the IRS isnt on me.. Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, I’m sure we all would "rather not declare all [our] income", but there is this small thing called the Law. Most of us are allergic to prison garb, the smell of concrete walls, institutional food, and gang showers. but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. You have to declare what you make (after business expenses). I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered Well, that may have to do with state incorporation or local trade name registration. Your best bet would be to find (and I’d recomend) a local Tax Attorney, since it sounds like you have to start building your defense strategy from day one. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
They are on you now because of what you have said. They read these newsgroups, also. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation
Bu-bu-but everybody does it, don’t they?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Wisconsin and make a living selling some products online. I process payments with offshore merchant accounts and have my money in an offshore bank, so basically I put enough in my bank account to pay bills, which right now is rent. I feel I run the money through the appropriate places now to avoind detection by the IRS. I make a good living at this and Ive only been doing it 10 months. So far Ive paid no taxes, and I dont want to pay taxes on all the income. Can I get some help on setting up a "business" to legitmize some income so I can buy a house etc? Id like to say that i do internet marketing consultation or some shit and just declare a modest income. Can someone point me in the right direction as far as filing taaxes, getting a business recognized and any other info. thanks Mike I suspect that very shortly you will get some definite instructions from the IRS and the State of Wisconsin. They both have very instructive ways in which to point you in the right direction. You have given them and many others good directions in which to properly contact you. Good luck in your adventure! Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation
You guys arent all that smart, there are plenty of ways to protect money from taxes, why do you think offshore banks even exist.. as tax havens..
<snip Well, the IRS knows about the offshore banks as tax havens. In fact, I heard a rumor that the IRS was taking a hard look at just those accounts. Annamarie
Of course, under a NST we would collect the tax from this fellow just like from everyone else — when he spent his money. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, I’m sure we all would "rather not declare all [our] income", but there is this small thing called the Law. Most of us are allergic to prison garb, the smell of concrete walls, institutional food, and gang showers. but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. You have to declare what you make (after business expenses). I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered Well, that may have to do with state incorporation or local trade name registration. Your best bet would be to find (and I’d recomend) a local Tax Attorney, since it sounds like you have to start building your defense strategy from day one. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
Dont tell me you cant fabricate where money comes from to declare an income.. People do it all the time
Yes they do. As a group, they are called "prisoners". Irv
defense strategy? umm the IRS isnt on me.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income, I’m sure we all would "rather not declare all [our] income", but there is this small thing called the Law. Most of us are allergic to prison garb, the smell of concrete walls, institutional food, and gang showers. but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some. You have to declare what you make (after business expenses). I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered Well, that may have to do with state incorporation or local trade name registration. Your best bet would be to find (and I’d recomend) a local Tax Attorney, since it sounds like you have to start building your defense strategy from day one. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
Yes, you are right, i know i need these frms to o things like buy a home, and yes Id rather not declare all my income,
I’m sure we all would "rather not declare all [our] income", but there is this small thing called the Law. Most of us are allergic to prison garb, the smell of concrete walls, institutional food, and gang showers. but one way or the other id liek to find out how to declare some.
You have to declare what you make (after business expenses). I guess Ill just call the irs, but I thought i had to like send 50 dollars somewhere first and declare a business name of some sort. These are the questions I was hoping to get answered
Well, that may have to do with state incorporation or local trade name registration. Your best bet would be to find (and I’d recomend) a local Tax Attorney, since it sounds like you have to start building your defense strategy from day one. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
Dont tell me you cant fabricate where money comes from to declare an income.. People do it all the time
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s my understanding a person or entity is taxed at the point where they conduct business from, and not where incorporated or where the money flows through. I live in Wisconsin and make a living selling some products online. I process payments with offshore merchant accounts and have my money in an offshore bank, so basically I put enough in my bank account to pay bills, which right now is rent. I feel I run the money through the appropriate places now to avoind detection by the IRS. I make a good living at this and Ive only been doing it 10 months. So far Ive paid no taxes, and I dont want to pay taxes on all the income. Can I get some help on setting up a "business" to legitmize some income so I can buy a house etc? Id like to say that i do internet marketing consultation or some shit and just declare a modest income. Can someone point me in the right direction as far as filing taaxes, getting a business recognized and any other info. thanks Mike
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Wisconsin and make a living selling some products online. I process payments with offshore merchant accounts and have my money in an offshore bank, so basically I put enough in my bank account to pay bills, which right now is rent. I feel I run the money through the appropriate places now to avoind detection by the IRS. I make a good living at this and Ive only been doing it 10 months. So far Ive paid no taxes, and I dont want to pay taxes on all the income. Can I get some help on setting up a "business" to legitmize some income so I can buy a house etc? Id like to say that i do internet marketing consultation or some shit and just declare a modest income. Can someone point me in the right direction as far as filing taaxes, getting a business recognized and any other info. thanks Mike
I suspect that very shortly you will get some definite instructions from the IRS and the State of Wisconsin. They both have very instructive ways in which to point you in the right direction. You have given them and many others good directions in which to properly contact you. Good luck in your adventure! Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation
I live in Wisconsin and make a living selling some products online. I process payments with offshore merchant accounts and have my money in an offshore bank, so basically I put enough in my bank account to pay bills, which right now is rent. I feel I run the money through the appropriate places now to avoind detection by the IRS. I make a good living at this and Ive only been doing it 10 months. So far Ive paid no taxes, and I dont want to pay taxes on all the income. Can I get some help on setting up a "business" to legitmize some income so I can buy a house etc? Id like to say that i do internet marketing consultation or some shit and just declare a modest income. Can someone point me in the right direction as far as filing taaxes, getting a business recognized and any other info. thanks Mike
I think you’re SOL.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Wisconsin and make a living selling some products online. I process payments with offshore merchant accounts and have my money in an offshore bank, so basically I put enough in my bank account to pay bills, which right now is rent. I feel I run the money through the appropriate places now to avoind detection by the IRS. I make a good living at this and Ive only been doing it 10 months. So far Ive paid no taxes, and I dont want to pay taxes on all the income. Can I get some help on setting up a "business" to legitmize some income so I can buy a house etc? Id like to say that i do internet marketing consultation or some shit and just declare a modest income. Can someone point me in the right direction as far as filing taaxes, getting a business recognized and any other info. thanks Mike
It’s my understanding a person or entity is taxed at the point where they conduct business from, and not where incorporated or where the money flows through.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Wisconsin and make a living selling some products online. I process payments with offshore merchant accounts and have my money in an offshore bank, so basically I put enough in my bank account to pay bills, which right now is rent. I feel I run the money through the appropriate places now to avoind detection by the IRS. I make a good living at this and Ive only been doing it 10 months. So far Ive paid no taxes, and I dont want to pay taxes on all the income. Can I get some help on setting up a "business" to legitmize some income so I can buy a house etc? Id like to say that i do internet marketing consultation or some shit and just declare a modest income. Can someone point me in the right direction as far as filing taaxes, getting a business recognized and any other info. thanks Mike
I may be wrong here (won’t be the first time, sure won’t be the last), but I thought Delta was a DOS based version of BusinessVision. This may explain some of the issues on the Win2K server. More interesting is that you’ve only had it for a couple of months. Did a reseller pass on outdated product to you? Stuart Nottingham – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi all. We have had Business Vision Delta for a couple of months now and have had nothing but problems. Most of our clients are win98 and the data files are stored on our win2000 server. I’m the systems administrator and we have figured this software has some serious bugs in it. Constant cobol crashes and illegal operations like…businessvision32cse.exe has causes a stack fault in module apiguim.dll… all the time. So they kept saying it was our network and we proved them wrong on that theory. Then they said it was our Mcafee virus scan was in real time moded causing all the crashes due to when say for example posting something to the general ledger then when it goes to save it back to the server, mcafee scans it and then the whole program times out causing the illegal operation. So now they recommend Norton System Works for our whole company. They prefer the clients to use win2000 pro, they want all our workstations in the WHOLE company to have UPS’s(thats costly). It just doesn’t make sense. Spending more thousands of dollars to compensate for their bugs in the system. We should have gone with another program that would poll the file on the server before saving so that if you had a file open and something happened then the file on the server would not become corrupted. Very poorly written program I might add. Why the heck cobol instead of like VB or something. Let me know your errors and feedback on this situation. Cheers Kennyboy Systems Administrator David, I’m an employee of a reseller that has just added Business Vision to our repertoire. Admittedly, our experience thus far has been limited, but I would welcome a user group. I find that the users of any software package often come up with solutions and resolutions that the publisher’s tech support or the reseller haven’t seen before. Please keep me posted on your efforts in this direction; I’ll definitely take part. Stuart Nottingham Management Applications, Inc. Are there any regulars to this newsgroup who use Business Vision software developed by Softline out of Toronto, Canada. If so, I would be interested in starting a user group to discuss issues with this software and ways to improve its use and functionality. I find BV’s documentation very vague and some of the consultants supporting it are not more accounting oriented rahter than business process driven. If you are a user and are interested, please post a reply. Thanks… DavidW
Are there any regulars to this newsgroup who use Business Vision software developed by Softline out of Toronto, Canada. If so, I would be interested in starting a user group to discuss issues with this software and ways to improve its use and functionality. I find BV’s documentation very vague and some of the consultants supporting it are not more accounting oriented rahter than business process driven. If you are a user and are interested, please post a reply. Thanks… DavidW
David, I’m an employee of a reseller that has just added Business Vision to our repertoire. Admittedly, our experience thus far has been limited, but I would welcome a user group. I find that the users of any software package often come up with solutions and resolutions that the publisher’s tech support or the reseller haven’t seen before. Please keep me posted on your efforts in this direction; I’ll definitely take part. Stuart Nottingham Management Applications, Inc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are there any regulars to this newsgroup who use Business Vision software developed by Softline out of Toronto, Canada. If so, I would be interested in starting a user group to discuss issues with this software and ways to improve its use and functionality. I find BV’s documentation very vague and some of the consultants supporting it are not more accounting oriented rahter than business process driven. If you are a user and are interested, please post a reply. Thanks… DavidW
Hi… I provide tech support for Business Vision and other accounting software. I would be very interested in starting a group as the support provided by Bus Vis is lacking. Kevin Burns, M.C.S.E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David, I’m an employee of a reseller that has just added Business Vision to our repertoire. Admittedly, our experience thus far has been limited, but I would welcome a user group. I find that the users of any software package often come up with solutions and resolutions that the publisher’s tech support or the reseller haven’t seen before. Please keep me posted on your efforts in this direction; I’ll definitely take part. Stuart Nottingham Management Applications, Inc. Are there any regulars to this newsgroup who use Business Vision software developed by Softline out of Toronto, Canada. If so, I would be interested in starting a user group to discuss issues with this software and ways to improve its use and functionality. I find BV’s documentation very vague and some of the consultants supporting it are not more accounting oriented rahter than business process driven. If you are a user and are interested, please post a reply. Thanks… DavidW
Hi all. We have had Business Vision Delta for a couple of months now and have had nothing but problems. Most of our clients are win98 and the data files are stored on our win2000 server. I’m the systems administrator and we have figured this software has some serious bugs in it. Constant cobol crashes and illegal operations like…businessvision32cse.exe has causes a stack fault in module apiguim.dll… all the time. So they kept saying it was our network and we proved them wrong on that theory. Then they said it was our Mcafee virus scan was in real time moded causing all the crashes due to when say for example posting something to the general ledger then when it goes to save it back to the server, mcafee scans it and then the whole program times out causing the illegal operation. So now they recommend Norton System Works for our whole company. They prefer the clients to use win2000 pro, they want all our workstations in the WHOLE company to have UPS’s(thats costly). It just doesn’t make sense. Spending more thousands of dollars to compensate for their bugs in the system. We should have gone with another program that would poll the file on the server before saving so that if you had a file open and something happened then the file on the server would not become corrupted. Very poorly written program I might add. Why the heck cobol instead of like VB or something. Let me know your errors and feedback on this situation. Cheers Kennyboy Systems Administrator – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David, I’m an employee of a reseller that has just added Business Vision to our repertoire. Admittedly, our experience thus far has been limited, but I would welcome a user group. I find that the users of any software package often come up with solutions and resolutions that the publisher’s tech support or the reseller haven’t seen before. Please keep me posted on your efforts in this direction; I’ll definitely take part. Stuart Nottingham Management Applications, Inc. Are there any regulars to this newsgroup who use Business Vision software developed by Softline out of Toronto, Canada. If so, I would be interested in starting a user group to discuss issues with this software and ways to improve its use and functionality. I find BV’s documentation very vague and some of the consultants supporting it are not more accounting oriented rahter than business process driven. If you are a user and are interested, please post a reply. Thanks… DavidW
<snip Hey ! Because of a grossly discriminatory law ( an interesting anamoly, in a nation of immigrants ), I have zero shot at the Presidency. So, that’s it, I will have to go for Prime Minister. The only problem is, which of the five parties will I use ? The Bloc Quebecois are right out, as they only run in Quebec ( around 75 out of 300 seats in Commons ), so I can’t win a general election there. The NDP ( Not Destined for Power ) are kinda moribund, the Tories are more so, and the Reformers don’t even know what their name is going to be. And, the Liberals, *ain’t*.
You’re forgetting about the Greens, Andre! 8% of the vote in BC and growing! I think we form a Green-Rhino coalition and we’ve got 24 Sussex Drive in the bag. And, I’m sexier than Gore ( I have references ), and, unlike Bush ( Shrub ) I know where many of the nations that have dealings with the US actually *are*. Gotta watch out for those Maine Texans…
Paint drying is sexier than Gore. I’m afraid you’ll have to do better than than for my vote. Andre
JW
<snip Hey ! Because of a grossly discriminatory law ( an interesting anamoly, in a nation of immigrants ), I have zero shot at the Presidency. So, that’s it, I will have to go for Prime Minister. The only problem is, which of the five parties will I use ? The Bloc Quebecois are right out, as they only run in Quebec ( around 75 out of 300 seats in Commons ), so I can’t win a general election there. The NDP ( Not Destined for Power ) are kinda moribund, the Tories are more so, and the Reformers don’t even know what their name is going to be. And, the Liberals, *ain’t*. You’re forgetting about the Greens, Andre! 8% of the vote in BC and growing! I think we form a Green-Rhino coalition and we’ve got 24 Sussex Drive in the bag.
Fair enough. Whenever I’ve had the opportunity to vote Rhino, I have. But, does that mean that I will have to share the Prime Ministry ? I’m not sure how my s/o will like that. <g And, I’m sexier than Gore ( I have references ), and, unlike Bush ( Shrub ) I know where many of the nations that have dealings with the US actually *are*. Gotta watch out for those Maine Texans… Paint drying is sexier than Gore. I’m afraid you’ll have to do better than than for my vote.
Well, that’s who I had available, to compare to. Were the candidates sexier, I betcha that I could still beat ‘em. But, for a reference for that, I may have to ask my s/o to take a few minutes at the school where she teaches ( and, just today, came up with a brilliant method to ensure that her students couldn’t cheat, when correcting multiple choice quizzes. Definitely Sec Ed material, from where I sit ). So, what would I have to do, bed Tipper ? Andre JW
Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
hiya Ziggy, 
I think Al Gore did a recent "flip" as far as fathers are concerned. - I guess he realized that dads and men in general make up a large portion of the voting population.
I must have missed it – can you point me to where he may have voiced support for fatherhood? (I know that he supports the "Fathers Count Act", but based on his comments at the NFI gathering, he seems to support it as a weapon to be used against fathers who are unable to economically support their children – the right thing for the wrong reason. I am happy to see any support for this bill, though.) He has provided *numerous* times the stupid terminology "dead-beat dads". Use of this term in a political context is not helpful to these issues, it is merely inflammatory demagoguery. Gore has shown that he is perfectly willing to color outside of the lines in order to attempt to jumpstart his lackluster campaign. (Gosh, for a nation of 240 million people *this* is the best we could do for presidential candidates? Geeze.) Overall, his comments as published in the Massachusetts Times show a complete disregard for the value of fatherhood. The issue that many fathers face is that the government and society work actively and passively *against* any inclination that divorced or separated fathers would have to be involved with thier children. The comment about showing "respect" for the children’s mother was particularly ironic – NCP parents are catagorically shown an utter lack of respect by the instruments of government – many parents who faithfully pay child support find themselves harrassed by support collection agancies nonetheless (the stories are astounding) and "visitation rights" are generally ignored by the courts and police. Hell, "respect"? Most fatheres would settle for basic civility and some recogition of their existing *legal* rights, never mind parenting rights. So, f*ck Al Gore and his gang of father-hating scum. But let him screw up his own damn kids, meanwhile I’ll fight the battle for *my* kids, regardless of what I have to do. There – blew off some steam. Feels good. I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns. Fido
I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns.
Oh, so *she* gets the presidency, and all I get is some lousy nomination for NYS senator? Hrmmmmph. |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro | they do not make it under El nos hace |U. of Illinois | circumstances of their own choosing
In article I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns. Oh, so *she* gets the presidency, and all I get is some lousy nomination for NYS senator? Hrmmmmph.
Umm, I promised her the job. Best – Fido |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro | they do not make it under El nos hace |U. of Illinois | circumstances of their own choosing
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I am, BTW, nominating my ASD good friend Donna T for president, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she could do a more respectable job then these clowns. Oh, so *she* gets the presidency, and all I get is some lousy nomination for NYS senator? Hrmmmmph.
Hey ! Because of a grossly discriminatory law ( an interesting anamoly, in a nation of immigrants ), I have zero shot at the Presidency. So, that’s it, I will have to go for Prime Minister. The only problem is, which of the five parties will I use ? The Bloc Quebecois are right out, as they only run in Quebec ( around 75 out of 300 seats in Commons ), so I can’t win a general election there. The NDP ( Not Destined for Power ) are kinda moribund, the Tories are more so, and the Reformers don’t even know what their name is going to be. And, the Liberals, *ain’t*. And, I’m sexier than Gore ( I have references ), and, unlike Bush ( Shrub ) I know where many of the nations that have dealings with the US actually *are*. Gotta watch out for those Maine Texans… |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro | they do not make it under El nos hace |U. of Illinois | circumstances of their own choosing
Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
I think Al Gore did a recent "flip" as far as fathers are oncerned. - I guess he realized that dads and men in general make up a large portion of the voting population.
One can hope… <g IMHO, CS payments should be made to a central controlling agency (and I don’t even like the sound of that)
I’ve read over your proposal, and while I will admit that I am not as well versed in this area as some ( as it wasn’t any part of my divorce ), I do have some research and thoughts to play with. In general, I would prefer to keep the bureaucrats out of it, wherever possible, so if you have a situation where the couple has a working court order, or a working agreement, then I’d say, leave the central body *out*. They will only add to complexity, and paperwork, in which deals can be fubared. Plus, monies sent to be processed to such a body, will take *longer* to get to their intended place. Proving general expenses, day to day, would be very time consuming, and people, especially divorced parents haven’t got enough of that commodity. So, I’d go with a CS level determined by setting an annual budget, taking into account such things as the difference between a one and a two bedroom place, at the place where the CS recipient is living ( often, the difference is relatively paltry ), if there is one child, for example. Beyond that, I am not in favour of forcing a parent to hold, or give, monies to an adult child. No married parent can be forced to do that, and this provision, IMHO, discriminates against a divorced parent. If one, or both, parents wish to fund a post secondary education for their 18 year old, that ought to remain their *choice*. No one elses. Proportional expensing can easily run into great problems, with growing children, who go through a lot more clothing, in a shorter span of time, than do most adults. So, expenses there would have to run along another track. An annual budget could better deal with this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. …where the money is doled out to the parent who is awarded payment, after expense vouchers are submitted to prove the money was spent on the children. 2. The child support award money should be put in a interest drawing escrow account. 3. Any money not used in any month would be held in this account to be available for a time when expenses are greater in one month as against another. Any monies left over over the length of time it takes for a child to reach 18 would be used to further their education. If the child does not choose to go to college, or vocational school, then the money would be given to them as a "stake" in whatever direction they choose to go (since the money should belong to them anyhow). 4. A fair "lodging" amount can be determined for the child/children’s "room" expense to be applied to the monthly rental and proportionate maintenance expense of an apartment or house. 5. The same as above can be determined for the child/children’s "board" expenses (food, clothing, and such…) This plan can be "fleshed out" to eliminate the usual complaint of the other spouse spending child support payments on their private expenses and not on the children. The time spent doing "parenting" resposibilities would not be compensated for. Being a parent is rewarding enough if the offspring become a credit to the parents. If not, then reflect on the things you did wrong.
Yep, no CS ought to be there to " compensate " the CS recipient for parenting the kids. As for spending CS on themselves… if there is the proper amount of money budgeted for the child’s needs, then thihs would not really be much of a problem, as it could be reduced to, I’ll take a fiver from here, and put it back, the next time I go to Safeways. I’m less concerned about the accounting, then I am about the results. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can our readers add responsible additions to this plan? I’m sure they can. Let’s hear it. I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay? (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers) Read Sanford Braver’s " Divorced Dads ", he has a ton of studies in there that address exactly this, among other things. Overall, that’s the best book about the true state of divorce that I have ever read. With a look to my bookshelves, and my local library, I could suggest a comprehensive reading list. There are deadbeat moms, and many of them do the same as the dads that fail their kids, both in CS, as well as parenting. I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child support. Not necessarily. The best would be for a presumed 50/50 arrangement, with the courts sanctioning whoever tries to sabotage it. That would make most CS deals unnecessary. As each parent would pay for what they expend, while the child is with them, and the court orders, done right, would cover long term costs, such as school, and the like. What is, a dad has his two kids, and he makes $60k, while the ex makes $35k ? As he makes more, is she off the hook to support *her* kids, just ’cause she makes less then him ? Why ought her lesser paystubs stick him with the full costs of raising *their* kids ?
Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
Eloquently said FIDO. I’m behind you 100%
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al Gore is a moron. Well, he is or isn’t, but these statements are moronic. Just a classic case of a liberal democrate bowing down to the women’s movement and their unsubstantiated figures they throw around. Sure – 51% of the voters are women. Hey, gotta get elected, you know. In Maine, our Governor shows his strongest support among women, something like 74% support – he says the strangest things to shore up that constituency. Polioticians may be great politicians – but that doesn’t necessarily translate into great lawmakers. But, that’s the system we got. I realize ALOT of fathers don’t pay support. And they should get what is coming to them. Agreed. But, the majority of fathers do pay their child support. But Gore and his gang portray pretty much all fathers of divorced familys as dead-beat-dads. Ignoring the real numbers. Inflating them to get votes. I’m a single full-time dad. My ex-wife has’nt paid me a dime of what she owes me in support for going on 6 months now. She is too busy being the "party-girl" to give her daughter any kind of involvement much less any kind of financial support. I am so sick of hearing about it being ONLY the fathers. And the politics is highlighted by that point – fathers pay a greater percentage of thier child support then mother who are required to pay child support. But Gore continues to use the inflammatory term "dead beat *dad*", while at the same time ignoring the larger and more significant issue of fatherlessness in the lives of *many* children. The present social programs provide not one whit of assistance for fathers who want to be more involved in thier childrens’ lives – instead, as many of us know – works to drive the father *out* of his children’s lives. The massive failure of this social initiative has not been address by those who make social policy – instaed they are happy to blame the wholesale social failure of these programs on those fathers themselves. Absurd, but unless the government recognizes that the family is a social unit better then any social program that might be created by government – instead, the government is happy to try to *replace* the father with expensive social programs. As a father who has made extraordinary sacrifices to stay closely involved with the lives of his children under difficult circumstances, I understand this process too well. And I also understand the many fathers who just give up on thier children, rather then continue to battle against the social "war against fathers" which drives them out of the lives of thier children. This is not a social system that works well, and no amount of social policy will replace, for many children, the benefits of having both parents involved in thier upbringing. Our "social scientists" refuse to recognize that fact, do not see the simple things that can be done to encourage the involvement of the father, and instead perpetuate the system that requires fathers to only be paychecks to thier children. A parent is a parent. Mother or Father. They BOTH should contribute to the well being of the child. Financially and emotionally. Yes, but social scientists do not consider anything other then the economic crisis that those very same social scientists have created. And rather then changing policies to support and encourage those fathers who do want to be involved in the lives of thier children (and there are good arguments that emotional involvement of the father is *much* more important then any incremental economic benefit to the children) they crank up the policies that continue to drive fathers out of the lives of the children. These policies will not, in the long term or short term, work. The contradiction that is created can be seen clearly in the social worker community – the problems of fatherlessness are almost universally recognized. And the system and policies that work in a hostile manner *against* father is perpetuated. Somehow, the connection between the two has not, on a wholesale level, been made. I have posted here about the *denial* that the social professions are in about this issue. My ex does neither. Just another case of a democrat kissing the rear end of a movement that regards the fathers involvement in his childrens lives as detrimental anyway. Married or divorced. They really don’t give a damn about the kids – they are just happy to hump the provocative "dead-beat dad" myth, bemoaning fatherlessness, while working actively to drive fathers out of the lives of thier children. I’ve been doing this long enough so that I have heard and lived thier lies too long. To hell with them, I will do it myself. Gore and his pals can continue their big circle jerk, and screwing up the lives of children. Best – Fido
Excerpted from the Washington Time, 03 JUN 00 p. A4 From the guy who "invented the internet". A good reason for requiring
intellegence tests of anyone who offers to run for President. This long-time democrat has finally given up on that party. GORE FAVORS FORCING DADS INTO SUPPORTING by Cheryl Wetzstein Vice President Al Gore yesterday told a national fatherhood summit that he would boost child support enforcement as the "next step in welfare reform" if he is elected president. We’ve been requiring work and support of the mothers; let’s require it of the fathers," he told the National Fatherhood Initiative’s third summit. He said he would urge credit card companies "to deny credit to any parent who owes a substantial amount of child support." "Deadbeat dads should pay what they owe to their children, or they will leave home without it," he said parodying the American Express credit-card ad. Mr. Gore also pledged that all federally funded fatherhood programs would be required to have provisions to stem domestic violence. He said, "every father needs to understand that being a dad means respecting the mother of your children." When the vice-president that "only one in four parents who owe child support actually pays that child support," an unidentified man in the audience yelled "That’s a lie." Federal data shows that "70% of fathers pay child support," the man said. Gore joked about whether the heckler "was on the program later" and repeated his data, clarifying that he was "not talking about those who have court orders being enforced against them."
Al Gore is a moron. Just a classic case of a liberal democrate bowing down to the women’s movement and their unsubstantiated figures they throw around. I realize ALOT of fathers don’t pay support. And they should get what is coming to them. But Gore and his gang portray pretty much all fathers of divorced familys as dead-beat-dads. Ignoring the real numbers. Inflating them to get votes. I’m a single full-time dad. My ex-wife has’nt paid me a dime of what she owes me in support for going on 6 months now. She is too busy being the "party-girl" to give her daughter any kind of involvement much less any kind of financial support. I am so sick of hearing about it being ONLY the fathers. A parent is a parent. Mother or Father. They BOTH should contribute to the well being of the child. Financially and emotionally. My ex does neither. Just another case of a democrat kissing the rear end of a movement that regards the fathers involvement in his childrens lives as detrimental anyway. Married or divorced.
Personally I’ve always believed that vice presidents were picked to insure the pres wouldn’t be killed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpted from the Washington Time, 03 JUN 00 p. A4 From the guy who "invented the internet". A good reason for requiring intellegence tests of anyone who offers to run for President. This long-time democrat has finally given up on that party. GORE FAVORS FORCING DADS INTO SUPPORTING by Cheryl Wetzstein Vice President Al Gore yesterday told a national fatherhood summit that he would boost child support enforcement as the "next step in welfare reform" if he is elected president. We’ve been requiring work and support of the mothers; let’s require it of the fathers," he told the National Fatherhood Initiative’s third summit. He said he would urge credit card companies "to deny credit to any parent who owes a substantial amount of child support." "Deadbeat dads should pay what they owe to their children, or they will leave home without it," he said parodying the American Express credit-card ad. Mr. Gore also pledged that all federally funded fatherhood programs would be required to have provisions to stem domestic violence. He said, "every father needs to understand that being a dad means respecting the mother of your children." When the vice-president that "only one in four parents who owe child support actually pays that child support," an unidentified man in the audience yelled "That’s a lie." Federal data shows that "70% of fathers pay child support," the man said. Gore joked about whether the heckler "was on the program later" and repeated his data, clarifying that he was "not talking about those who have court orders being enforced against them."
– "Don’t spit into the well, you may have to drink the water" old Polish proverb ICQ# 35013944
I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay? (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers) I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child suport .
I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child suport .
Child support should be rare. Try sharing your "toys" instead. Then take responsibilty for them when you have them. Child support is just the flip side of saying "We will kidnap your children."
Al Gore is a moron.
Well, he is or isn’t, but these statements are moronic. Just a classic case of a liberal democrate bowing down to the women’s movement and their unsubstantiated figures they throw around.
Sure – 51% of the voters are women. Hey, gotta get elected, you know. In Maine, our Governor shows his strongest support among women, something like 74% support – he says the strangest things to shore up that constituency. Polioticians may be great politicians – but that doesn’t necessarily translate into great lawmakers. But, that’s the system we got. I realize ALOT of fathers don’t pay support. And they should get what is coming to them.
Agreed. But, the majority of fathers do pay their child support. But Gore and his gang portray pretty much all fathers of divorced familys as dead-beat-dads. Ignoring the real numbers. Inflating them to get votes. I’m a single full-time dad. My ex-wife has’nt paid me a dime of what she owes me in support for going on 6 months now. She is too busy being the "party-girl" to give her daughter any kind of involvement much less any kind of financial support. I am so sick of hearing about it being ONLY the fathers.
And the politics is highlighted by that point – fathers pay a greater percentage of thier child support then mother who are required to pay child support. But Gore continues to use the inflammatory term "dead beat *dad*", while at the same time ignoring the larger and more significant issue of fatherlessness in the lives of *many* children. The present social programs provide not one whit of assistance for fathers who want to be more involved in thier childrens’ lives – instead, as many of us know – works to drive the father *out* of his children’s lives. The massive failure of this social initiative has not been address by those who make social policy – instaed they are happy to blame the wholesale social failure of these programs on those fathers themselves. Absurd, but unless the government recognizes that the family is a social unit better then any social program that might be created by government – instead, the government is happy to try to *replace* the father with expensive social programs. As a father who has made extraordinary sacrifices to stay closely involved with the lives of his children under difficult circumstances, I understand this process too well. And I also understand the many fathers who just give up on thier children, rather then continue to battle against the social "war against fathers" which drives them out of the lives of thier children. This is not a social system that works well, and no amount of social policy will replace, for many children, the benefits of having both parents involved in thier upbringing. Our "social scientists" refuse to recognize that fact, do not see the simple things that can be done to encourage the involvement of the father, and instead perpetuate the system that requires fathers to only be paychecks to thier children. A parent is a parent. Mother or Father. They BOTH should contribute to the well being of the child. Financially and emotionally.
Yes, but social scientists do not consider anything other then the economic crisis that those very same social scientists have created. And rather then changing policies to support and encourage those fathers who do want to be involved in the lives of thier children (and there are good arguments that emotional involvement of the father is *much* more important then any incremental economic benefit to the children) they crank up the policies that continue to drive fathers out of the lives of the children. These policies will not, in the long term or short term, work. The contradiction that is created can be seen clearly in the social worker community – the problems of fatherlessness are almost universally recognized. And the system and policies that work in a hostile manner *against* father is perpetuated. Somehow, the connection between the two has not, on a wholesale level, been made. I have posted here about the *denial* that the social professions are in about this issue. My ex does neither. Just another case of a democrat kissing the rear end of a movement that regards the fathers involvement in his childrens lives as detrimental anyway. Married or divorced.
They really don’t give a damn about the kids – they are just happy to hump the provocative "dead-beat dad" myth, bemoaning fatherlessness, while working actively to drive fathers out of the lives of thier children. I’ve been doing this long enough so that I have heard and lived thier lies too long. To hell with them, I will do it myself. Gore and his pals can continue their big circle jerk, and screwing up the lives of children. Best – Fido
I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay? (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers)
Read Sanford Braver’s " Divorced Dads ", he has a ton of studies in there that address exactly this, among other things. Overall, that’s the best book about the true state of divorce that I have ever read. With a look to my bookshelves, and my local library, I could suggest a comprehensive reading list. There are deadbeat moms, and many of them do the same as the dads that fail their kids, both in CS, as well as parenting. I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child support.
Not necessarily. The best would be for a presumed 50/50 arrangement, with the courts sanctioning whoever tries to sabotage it. That would make most CS deals unnecessary. As each parent would pay for what they expend, while the child is with them, and the court orders, done right, would cover long term costs, such as school, and the like. What is, a dad has his two kids, and he makes $60k, while the ex makes $35k ? As he makes more, is she off the hook to support *her* kids, just ’cause she makes less then him ? Why ought her lesser paystubs stick him with the full costs of raising *their* kids ? Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
I think Al Gore did a recent "flip" as far as fathers are oncerned. - I guess he realized that dads and men in general make up a large portion of the voting population. IMHO, CS payments should be made to a central controlling agency (and I don’t even like the sound of that) 1. …where the money is doled out to the parent who is awarded payment, after expense vouchers are submitted to prove the money was spent on the children. 2. The child support award money should be put in a interest drawing escrow account. 3. Any money not used in any month would be held in this account to be available for a time when expenses are greater in one month as against another. Any monies left over over the length of time it takes for a child to reach 18 would be used to further their education. If the child does not choose to go to college, or vocational school, then the money would be given to them as a "stake" in whatever direction they choose to go (since the money should belong to them anyhow). 4. A fair "lodging" amount can be determined for the child/children’s "room" expense to be applied to the monthly rental and proportionate maintenance expense of an apartment or house. 5. The same as above can be determined for the child/children’s "board" expenses (food, clothing, and such…) This plan can be "fleshed out" to eliminate the usual complaint of the other spouse spending child support payments on their private expenses and not on the children. The time spent doing "parenting" resposibilities would not be compensated for. Being a parent is rewarding enough if the offspring become a credit to the parents. If not, then reflect on the things you did wrong. Can our readers add responsible additions to this plan? I’m sure they can. Let’s hear it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always wondered if there is such a thing a a dead beat mother who has been ordered to pay child support to her X and children because she left and earns more oney yet refuses to pay? (I am female so this is NOT agains mothers or fathers) Read Sanford Braver’s " Divorced Dads ", he has a ton of studies in there that address exactly this, among other things. Overall, that’s the best book about the true state of divorce that I have ever read. With a look to my bookshelves, and my local library, I could suggest a comprehensive reading list. There are deadbeat moms, and many of them do the same as the dads that fail their kids, both in CS, as well as parenting. I feel who ever has the most income should be the one to pay the child support. Not necessarily. The best would be for a presumed 50/50 arrangement, with the courts sanctioning whoever tries to sabotage it. That would make most CS deals unnecessary. As each parent would pay for what they expend, while the child is with them, and the court orders, done right, would cover long term costs, such as school, and the like. What is, a dad has his two kids, and he makes $60k, while the ex makes $35k ? As he makes more, is she off the hook to support *her* kids, just ’cause she makes less then him ? Why ought her lesser paystubs stick him with the full costs of raising *their* kids ? Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
I only ordered one thing from them last year without any problems, but I’ve heard nothing but bad news about them over at www.corral.net. Is it just me or does customer service just suck anywhere these days? Is it time for you to talk to a lawyer? Good luck Kevin McEvoy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
Pay them a visit…….
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
Did you at lkeast pay by credit card? Call your credit card co. and they will deduct it from your bill as a disputed charge if so. Randy 98 Canary Yellow Cobra Coupe
i’ve heard a couple of horror stories about them but nothing that bad. call a lawyer
I have never, ever, heard one good thing about them. Avoid them like the plague, terrible business, its a wonder how they stay in business, at any rate, you have full grounds to sue them, also, write a letter to your credit card company to stop payment, and tell them the story, they will refund your money, and their lawyers will attack them, do it soon though, as there is a time limit. Bryon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not
I ordered my Powerdyne from them back in June of last year. Before I gave them my credit card number, I made sure they understood that I had to have delivery by a certain date. I was assured that there would be no problem since the date I needed it by was like 3.5 weeks later. Two weeks after my order, I called to check on the progress of my order. I got the same run-around that you got. So, I just told them that I was canceling my order and that I was sending a letter to my CC company as soon as I got off of the phone with them. To make a long story short, 30 minutes after I got off of the phone, I received a phone call from Excessive Motorsports telling me that it would be at my door within two days. Reluctantly, I said ok…. Low and behold, two days later UPS drove up with it. Directly from Powerdyne.
I have never, ever, heard one good thing about them. Avoid them like the plague, terrible business, its a wonder how they stay in business, at any rate, you have full grounds to sue them, also, write a letter to your credit card company to stop payment, and tell them the story, they will refund your money, and their lawyers will attack them, do it soon though, as there is a time limit. Bryon
I would write to MM&FF and any other magazine they have an ad in and tell them what happened. Tell them they should be ashamed to put their ads in….
Oh no, with the money that excessive pays to them, hell, recently, they been reviewing the engine kits from excessive, and they sure dont mention any of these problems….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never, ever, heard one good thing about them. Avoid them like the plague, terrible business, its a wonder how they stay in business, at any rate, you have full grounds to sue them, also, write a letter to your credit card company to stop payment, and tell them the story, they will refund your money, and their lawyers will attack them, do it soon though, as there is a time limit. Bryon I would write to MM&FF and any other magazine they have an ad in and tell them what happened. Tell them they should be ashamed to put their ads in….
Not with Excessive, but I had to unleash the wrath of the credit card company on Houston Performance. Long story short, I bought about $800 worth of stuff, got a part that was defective, sent it back, never could get a credit to my credit card. "Somebody" there kept telling me that he had issued the credit. But they didn’t. However due to some strange vibes I got from some earlier conversations, I had started corresponding via email. That way I had a record of everything he said, dates, times, etc. concerning the credit that I never received. The credit card asked for any proof I might have. Printed all the email out and sent it to them. Evidently, they confronted them with it cause shortly thereafter I received notice that my card had been issued a credit. Anyway, at the first hint of trouble from a vendor, everybody may want to try to go the email route, atleast enough to "get the goods" on the prick is trying to screw ya. Ronnie in Chesapeake 95gt w/aode 13.53 so far – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
post the web site location and we can all send e-mails saying we will not do biz with them if that is the way they deal with customers….if tons of us do this maybe it will help??? Ed 92gt with most of the bolt ons
I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
I thought the same thing for the same reason, and I got similar service when I ordered my Bassani X pipe. I would never recomend them to anyone for any reason.
i’ve heard a couple of horror stories about them but nothing that bad. call a lawyer
problem is…lawyers want $90-150 an hour on the average usually a phone call or a letter from the lawyer can do the trick…but most lawyers would want this dragged out so they make more 10 hours of legal fees would be half of what the s/c cost (for the cheaper lawyer) i’m glad he told us about Excessive Motorsports though
But when it is all done with, the "bad guy" has to pay the lawyer. You might have to put up a retainer fee but you will get that back when it is all over… assuming that you win the case.. — Lynn ( Houston TX ) 97GT Modified http://home.swbell.net/shelly1/cars.html "Speed cost, how fast do you want to go?"
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve heard a couple of horror stories about them but nothing that bad. call a lawyer problem is…lawyers want $90-150 an hour on the average usually a phone call or a letter from the lawyer can do the trick…but most lawyers would want this dragged out so they make more 10 hours of legal fees would be half of what the s/c cost (for the cheaper lawyer) i’m glad he told us about Excessive Motorsports though
Call your credit card and have them put a hold on the payment, the company should quickly call to rectify your problem as they just lost the money they were holding. Happened to me with CCM… Sean rec.bicycles.marketplace
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never, ever, heard one good thing about them. Avoid them like the plague, terrible business, its a wonder how they stay in business, at any rate, you have full grounds to sue them, also, write a letter to your credit card company to stop payment, and tell them the story, they will refund your money, and their lawyers will attack them, do it soon though, as there is a time limit. Bryon Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
I ordered my TransGo shift kit from them, based on their ads and their price. When I placed the order, I was told it would ship right away. So, I expected to have the kit for the weekend and made plans to install it. Needless to say, it didn’t show up. I called them to inquire. I got the same run around. Eventually, I got the kit. There is one thing that really bothers me, and it’s this: I didn’t think a mail order company was allowed to charge your credit card until the item was shipped? Excessive charged my card right away. Now I notice that their ad states that they charge credit cards when the order is placed. Is this legal in? Does anyone know the laws in Missouri? kp ‘89 GT
Here is how to contact these "people": www.excessivemotorsports.com give ‘em hell!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – post the web site location and we can all send e-mails saying we will not do biz with them if that is the way they deal with customers….if tons of us do this maybe it will help??? Ed 92gt with most of the bolt ons
I think all the vendors do it. I know Summit does. When I’m ordering a list of items and come across one that’s not in stock, I tell them to cancel it. I would rather pay a few more bucks somewhere else than to play that game of letting them hit my credit card a couple of months before I get the goods. But if they lie to you and say they have it in stock, when they don’t, then the games begin. Ronnie in Chesapeake 95gt w/aode 13.53, to be bettered next month, I hope – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never, ever, heard one good thing about them. Avoid them like the plague, terrible business, its a wonder how they stay in business, at any rate, you have full grounds to sue them, also, write a letter to your credit card company to stop payment, and tell them the story, they will refund your money, and their lawyers will attack them, do it soon though, as there is a time limit. Bryon Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment? I ordered my TransGo shift kit from them, based on their ads and their price. When I placed the order, I was told it would ship right away. So, I expected to have the kit for the weekend and made plans to install it. Needless to say, it didn’t show up. I called them to inquire. I got the same run around. Eventually, I got the kit. There is one thing that really bothers me, and it’s this: I didn’t think a mail order company was allowed to charge your credit card until the item was shipped? Excessive charged my card right away. Now I notice that their ad states that they charge credit cards when the order is placed. Is this legal in? Does anyone know the laws in Missouri? kp ‘89 GT
I purchased suspension items from HAWAII Racing and had an excellent experience with them. I always ask if everything is in stock and if the part that isnt I will order it from somewhere else. Everything arrived in 2 days of course there in CA as am I.
Oh no, with the money that excessive pays to them, hell, recently, they been reviewing the engine kits from excessive, and they sure dont mention any of these problems…..
In that case I would tell as many people as possible about excessive. I told my friend Don about some crappy service you mentioned. He ordered his GT40 heads from them, no problems…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not refund my $1776.23! Mitch Black (owner) refuses to return my calls, the accounting department (responsible for credit refunds) ignores my messages. Money was taken, product was never shipped, phone calls (over 20) never returned. I thought they were a reputable company because they have such large ads in magazines. I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and my credit card company but my point is: THIS IS THE WORST CUSTOMER SERVICE I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED! If you plan to purchase from these people, please be cautious. Has anyone else ever experienced this kind of treatment?
Yes. I also ordered a supercharger kit via Excessive. While "something" was delivered, it was not what I ordered. Seems that Excessive substitutes cheaper parts in the kit behind your back (fuel pump, etc.). Since I had placed the order using my Discover card, I got Discover involved and was subsequently settled to my satisfaction. Mtich is a real a–hole. Spoke with him personally. Highly recommend all parties to avoid buying from Excessive. Regards, Rich Machuzak
Ditto, I ordered a Powerdyne from them to in May last year. But, they told me on the phone that it would be about a week before they could ship it. Because, they where on back order from Powerdyne and that they would have two of them coming in a week from then and one of them would be mine. I got my Powerdyne at the end of that week no problems. One company I would never order from is CCM(central coast mustangs) they suck. They jerk you around on the phone lie and tell you one thing when in reality they don’t have the parts and are waiting for them to come in(they built a engine for me). But, with engine builders you have to pay most of them up front or they won’t build you a motor. One thing for sure is NEVER send cash only use a credit card when ordering from those Magazine guys. They are like building contractors pay them and then have a problem with your house and you will have to take them to court to get them to show up again and fix what they screwed up or didn’t do. I try to get as much stuff local as possible that way if I do have a problem I will pay them a visit. Companies don’t like customers to be loud and angry when other potental customers are in their shops/stores. Works everytime. Propower – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my experience I had when dealing with Excessive Motorsports. I will keep it brief. I placed an order for an ATI Procharger for my 1970 muscle car. After 3 months of calling them and being told "2 more weeks", I cancelled my order. It has been 2 months since the order was cancelled and they will not I ordered my Powerdyne from them back in June of last year. Before I gave them my credit card number, I made sure they understood that I had to have delivery by a certain date. I was assured that there would be no problem since the date I needed it by was like 3.5 weeks later. Two weeks after my order, I called to check on the progress of my order. I got the same run-around that you got. So, I just told them that I was canceling my order and that I was sending a letter to my CC company as soon as I got off of the phone with them. To make a long story short, 30 minutes after I got off of the phone, I received a phone call from Excessive Motorsports telling me that it would be at my door within two days. Reluctantly, I said ok…. Low and behold, two days later UPS drove up with it. Directly from Powerdyne.
Seems that I am not the only one that thinks CCM sucks… Propower – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Call your credit card and have them put a hold on the payment, the company should quickly call to rectify your problem as they just lost the money they were holding. Happened to me with CCM… Sean rec.bicycles.marketplace
writes: Seems that I am not the only one that thinks CCM sucks…
Add me to the list. I ordered gears from them and they had them dropped shipped from some loser company – the gears arrived twice with chips in the teeth. Finally got tired of the wait and ordered gears through Summit. Propower Call your credit card and have them put a hold on the payment, the company should quickly call to rectify your problem as they just lost the money they were holding. Happened to me with CCM… Sean
Patrick Former original owner – ‘87 5-liter, 5-speed LX Best street tire 60 footer – 1.93 I’m not brand loyal. If it’s fast, I like it.
Uh…Oh! Well, you crossed the line. My guess is that if you ever want another answer out of this group, change your name. Perhaps you’ve confused bookkeeping with accounting, that’s why they call it "QuickBooks" not "QuickAccounting." The other posters have advised you to hire an accountant and I’m going to join the chorus and add that you need to find a "good" accountant. And, pay attention to your accountant. You’re attitude reflects a dangerously casual attitude. We’re in the process of cleaning up a three year old small business, with a very modest $150,000 in annual revenues, that cut the wrong corners and is facing, in addition to consulting and legal fees, a little over $10,000 in fines and penalties, as well as a host of back taxes, and fortunate not to be facing a criminal trial. Around $1,000 a year in total accounting fees, included tax preparation, would have saved all this grief. Do your own bookkeeping, hire an accountant for your accounting. Wins Burke
Perhaps you’ve confused bookkeeping with accounting, Do your own bookkeeping, hire an accountant for your accounting.
I want to throw in a plug for bookkeepers here. In my opinion, quality accounting requires quality bookkeeping. If I have a well prepared set of books to work with, my job is easy. If I don’t have a well prepared set of books to work with, I may not be able to do my job at all. I rarely accept (or keep) clients who insist on doing their own books. Incidentally, most successful owners I know figure their time and focus is better spent in their area of competence than in doing books. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com
Thanks again for the numerous responses to my question. Even though I did not get an answer to my specific question I did learn a lot about what accounting is, who accountants are, and what to look for when chosing an accountant. As some of you pointed out correctly, I am new in the business terminology and I confused bookkeeping with accounting. Sorry for stepping on some sensitive toes. However, even though I was half joking with my ‘how hard can it be’ remark, I hope and think that doing the bookkeeping of a simple home based massage business is doable without having to pay also an accountant. Starting such a business with all the licenses and stuff is expensive enough. Gerard
As others have noted, sure, you should be able to do your own bookkeeping. But you are operating a BUSINESS, and the requirements of doing so include learning how to run a business. There are liability and insurance implications, tax and bookkeeping implications, and perhaps licensing requirements, for example. What many others have attempted (with varying degrees of somewhat strained politeness) to explain is that you seem unaware of several issues that may have significant tax/bookkeeping implications; that these issues are more complicated than you believe; that a large number of people who understand these issues believe it is unwise (and/or impractical and/or unprofessional) for you to attempt to learn these issues (and for them to attempt to teach you) in a few brief e-mail exchanges. AFTER you understand some of these issues you will be able to do your own bookkeeping. And the consensus seems to be that the best way for you to learn is to consult a professional. It’s a cost of doing business – just like getting the licenses. Vernon Paige.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks again for the numerous responses to my question. Even though I did not get an answer to my specific question I did learn a lot about what accounting is, who accountants are, and what to look for when chosing an accountant. As some of you pointed out correctly, I am new in the business terminology and I confused bookkeeping with accounting. Sorry for stepping on some sensitive toes. However, even though I was half joking with my ‘how hard can it be’ remark, I hope and think that doing the bookkeeping of a simple home based massage business is doable without having to pay also an accountant. Starting such a business with all the licenses and stuff is expensive enough. Gerard
Thanks again for the numerous responses to my question. Even though I did not get an answer to my specific question I did learn a lot about what accounting is, who accountants are, and what to look for when chosing an accountant. As some of you pointed out correctly, I am new in the business terminology and I confused bookkeeping with accounting. Sorry for stepping on some sensitive toes. However, even though I was half joking with my ‘how hard can it be’ remark, I hope and think that doing the bookkeeping of a simple home based massage business is doable without having to pay also an accountant. Starting such a business with all the licenses and stuff is expensive enough. Gerard
well, sooner or later, u’ll find out that an accountant is important to your business!
Jim, I’d like to thank you for the "plug" for bookkeepers like me. Good accountants recognize good bookkeeping, and a good bookkeeper can recognize bad accounting. I depend on our CPA to answer the questions about depreciation, tax laws, etc., and he counts on me to record things the right way, in the right place. I would advise any new business to get their books set up by a professional bookkeeper (in QuickBooks, Peachtree, whatever), so that they don’t have to fix things down the line. Paula
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps you’ve confused bookkeeping with accounting, Do your own bookkeeping, hire an accountant for your accounting. I want to throw in a plug for bookkeepers here. In my opinion, quality accounting requires quality bookkeeping. If I have a well prepared set of books to work with, my job is easy. If I don’t have a well prepared set of books to work with, I may not be able to do my job at all. I rarely accept (or keep) clients who insist on doing their own books. Incidentally, most successful owners I know figure their time and focus is better spent in their area of competence than in doing books. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com
Joyce / Gerard, An an accountant I was amazed at your generalization about how tough it can be. I am not sure what or why you are posting such questions, tetious in nature, to this newsgroup. In addition, depreciation is basic accounting. I agree with Jim. Professional liability is a big issue. Some accountants, those that are not publicly insured are not to provide expertise on these easy topics. So the best advise I can provide, as did Jim, ask a professional.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question. Thanks for the many responses I received. Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation. For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99. This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard I am one of the people who responded to your prior post. While I frequently respond to questions of a general nature and requests for information that is essentially public, as I did with your prior post, I do not give accounting advice or do student’s homework in this or any other newsgroup. In my opinion, both are unprofessional and foolish. That is particularly true with regards to "giving accounting advice". Any professional who does so may very well create professional liability exposure for him / herself with no offsetting fee. Your request here is clearly a request for free accounting advice. I suggest you retain a qualified professional. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com
Accounting is hard enough that we went to post secondary school for a good number of years to be able to say we’re ‘Accountants’. Perhaps you’re confusing bookkeeping with accounting. They are two very different disciplines. Also, if you’re in Canada, there is something called the half-year rule that you need to take into account for your tax filing. Depreciation in bookkeeping is different from CCA in taxation. Consult a professional. Barb
Yes, how hard can accounting be? Apparently hard enough that you don’t have a clue. It is in extremely poor taste to insult the people you are trying to beg free advice from. Get a professional.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question. Thanks for the many responses I received. Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation. For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99. This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard
Yes, how hard can accounting be? Apparently hard enough that you don’t have a clue. It is in extremely poor taste to insult the people you are trying to beg free advice from. Get a professional.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question. Thanks for the many responses I received. Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation. For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99. This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard
Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question. Thanks for the many responses I received. Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation. For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99. This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question. Thanks for the many responses I received. Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation. For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99. This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard
I am one of the people who responded to your prior post. While I frequently respond to questions of a general nature and requests for information that is essentially public, as I did with your prior post, I do not give accounting advice or do student’s homework in this or any other newsgroup. In my opinion, both are unprofessional and foolish. That is particularly true with regards to "giving accounting advice". Any professional who does so may very well create professional liability exposure for him / herself with no offsetting fee. Your request here is clearly a request for free accounting advice. I suggest you retain a qualified professional. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com
Hey guys, Before rehab will approve college for me, I need to get in three informational interviews. I need to interview people who are in the type of jobs that the degree would be useful for. What I’m looking at, is a 2 year degree in Business Information Systems. It’s heavy on accounting, computer programming languages, and technical writing. I need to find out find out what the minimum qualifications are, what skills and abilities are necessary, what are the typical duties, how people get hired into the company, that kind of thing. I have two interviews lined up for tomorrow, and the counselor said I could do some of the interviews online, so if anyone wants to let me "interview" them, drop me an email. I’ll need a name and job title, so if anyone is reluctant to pass that on via email, keep that in mind. Thanks,
Before rehab will approve college for me, I need to get in three informational interviews. I need to interview people who are in the type of jobs that the degree would be useful for.
I can’t help you in this field but just wanted to say it sounds like a very good idea to talk to people in the fields you are interested in. Good luck with your interviews. Keep us posted. Sarah L "The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they
You store different amounts according to who you are storing for: Adult Male = 200 lbs Adult Female = 150 lbs Children: age 1 – 3 = 60 lbs age 4 – 6 = 100 lb age 7 – 9 = 150 lbs age 10 – 12 = 190 lbs age 13 – 15 = 200 lbs ages 16 and above are considered to be an adult. For more information on storing food you can contact: We have been in the food storage and survival supplies business for over eight years.
please let me know if you know how much grain I should get and web address where I could get this info .Thanks.
PLEASE remember when storing wheat for survival food…. USE the wheat NOW.. don’t wait until you are in a survival situation to get your body used to eating "whole wheat". This is something you should do gradually. Store what you eat and eat what you store. Not only does this get your body used to eating this type of food but it keeps your food storage rotated. DO NOT get your food storage and forget about it… this is an ongoing process.
please let me know if you know how much grain I should get and web address where I could get this info .Thanks.
An excellent list, accounting for different ages and gender, is put out by the Mormon Church and reproduces at Stan Deyo’s Noah’s Ark Website at http://www.millennium-ark.net/News_Files/LATH_Food_Store(6c).html.
You are really a brainwashed lib. why are you so affraid of religion. remeber it was the dems that favored slavery and still do with welfare. It was the dems that started the kkk, that is a pretty hatefull group. liberals associate more with facism and socialism than any repub.
Didn’t slave holders quote the Bible to justify their ownership of other human beings, Dana? Jim Ecrasons l’infame Join The War On Right Wing Ignorance: http://home.att.net/~clusterone/ We didn’t create racism, we pour gas on it. We didn’t invent homophobia, we just fan the flames. We don’t lynch minorities, we make the rope stronger. We don’t bomb women’s clinics, we make the bombs bigger. We didn’t invent hate, we echo it across the country. We’re the Vultures of hate radio. We’re the Grand Old Fascist Party. BartCop on the GOP, a subsidiary of ADM
You are really a brainwashed lib.
No, it is actually those who follow the Religious Right who are brainwashed. You people think that their agenda is Christian in nature, while it’s actually anything but. Christ taught tolerance for others who are different. He taught to separate the sin from the sinner, and to love everyone, regardless. And he preached against the very things that most "Christians" profess; going to church every Sunday, and worshipping tradition over substance. why are you so affraid of religion.
Why are you? Instead of telling us all authoritatively who’s going to hell, why aren’t you guys out there keeping yourselves out of the place? Why aren’t you out there helping the poor, and supporting those who are sick and hurt and feeling lost? Instead, you puff yourselves up, and put them down; the very opposite of what Christ told you to do. Instead of whining about welfare, you should be supporting its aims, and seeing to it that enough is collected that it does the job that is supposed to be done… remeber it was the dems that favored slavery and still do with welfare.
So, now you’re equating slavery and welfare? That’s some Christian attitude you have there. Also, I may be off-base here, but I’m gonna take a guess here, that pretty much all Dems who supported slavery are dead? Of course, the Dems who fought the Civil Rights movement in this century are now Republicans, and you guys seem proud to have them. It was the dems that started the kkk,
The DEMS Started the KKK? A bunch of rogue racists started the KKK, and for your information, most of them were not affiliated with a party. In fact, there was a reason they wore hoods. Can you guess what that was? The fact is, you ignoramus, no one knows who was even IN the KKK back then, so an accurate accounting of their party affiliation would be impossible. It is likely that many of them were Dems, but again; these days, they all seem to claim either Republican or Libertarian affiliation these days, when they take off their hoods… that is a pretty hatefull group. liberals associate more with facism and socialism than any repub.
That would be ridiculous even if I changed the word liberal to conservative. Although, if one were to apply the "fascism" label, I’d ask them this; which side supports the censorship of the internet, the cancellation of TV shows which they don’t like, and the prosecution of people for producing art they don’t like? Which side supports giving the state ultimate decision making power over a pregnant woman? Which side supports throwing people in jail because they have personal habits/addictions which they find abhorrent, and which side thinks certain people should be denied certain of their civil rights because their sexual preference doesn’t fall into lockstep with the rest of the populace? Now, were I to use the "fascist" label, (and I will not), which side does it come closer to fitting, in reality????? Now go read a book, (a dictionary would be a good start), and let the adults talk about reality… Milt
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (from The Last Word 3/31/98) RELIGIOUS WRONG I’m thoroughly exasperated with the Religious Right. For the past few years, I have been granting far too little coverage to the Religious Right, feeling it was a faction of the Right that had done so much to discredit itself that there was no point in emphasizing it. But who was I kidding? Today, NKU experienced an invasion by the College Republicans. These Hitler Youth amassed in the University Center wearing Gex Williams campaign buttons to show their support for the sodomy-obsessed candidate’s U.S. House bid. The young crypto-fascists were registering students to vote in the hopes that these newly registered voters would pay back the Grand Old Farty for their helpfulness by pulling the big elephant lever on Election Day. (Democrats hold registration and voting drives, too, but are they free from media scrutiny as the Republicans are?) A young woman with the College Nazis approached me and asked me if I was registered to vote, and I replied, "I’m already registered, but not with your screwed-up party." This was not my only face-to-face encounter with fascism today. At the supermarket, I saw a car plastered with enough right-wing stickers to completely cover the rear window. I strolled past a customer inside the store and couldn’t help but notice her "Nuke Iraq" T-shirt. The radio inside the store was tuned to a religious station, so I had to deal with being preached at not only by bumper stickers, shirts, and College Republicans, but also by the store itself and its insistence on treating customers to hellfire and brimstone over the audio system. Canada is starting to look pretty good. The Republican Party has become dominated by wild-eyed Religious Right wackos just as it coagulates its viselike grip on Northern Kentucky politics. The stranglehold of the Religious Right on the community shows more and more daily. Following the 1997 flood, for example, a recurring theme of letters sent to the local newspaper was that the flood was retribution from God for Kentucky’s failure to completely stamp out "permissiveness" and "promiscuity". To hear these zealots talk, one would think that society has continued to become more permissive following the close of the 1970s, but in fact, there is far less freedom–sexual and otherwise–today than 20 years ago. As one who recalls fondly the days when people stopped little short of having sex in public in full view of small children, I can attest to the loss of spirit over the past two decades. For most of the past 17 years, we have had leadership in Washington that has been afraid to use the word "condom". This accounts for the increase of sexually transmitted diseases, which has forced people to be more restrained. But this is exactly what the Religious Right wants: Frustrated by the unfeasibility of directly legislating morality, they resort to inaction against diseases such as AIDS and claim that it is a divinely imposed punishment against society and that if people don’t like it, tough. Jerry Falwell expressed such a sentiment a few years back. The yapping moralists are sooooo interested in what people do with their own bodies that they have to have some outlet–whether direct legislation or deliberate inaction–of enforcing their will. The issue of the Religious Right’s preoccupation with all things bedroom-related has been grating on my nerves more and more in recent weeks. It seems that a significant percentage of people in our area firmly believe that anyone who even thinks about sex is going to hell. These anti-sex fanatics do their worst to make everyone feel guilty for living, and as a result, we reside in a bleak, gray community where folks are made to feel as if they will be instantly struck dead if they dare step out of line. If you think that the puritanical mentality of others has no effect on me, you are wrong. It crushes my spirits. I have always been quite a rebel, but as life in this locale becomes more and more unbearable at the hands of those who think they know what is best for everyone else, the Right is about to learn the hard way what I am capable of. —
You whine and whine about free speech, then you suggest that those who say,promote or adhere to things you don’t agree with are about to ‘ learn the hard way what you are capable of doing"? Do you actually read the stuff you write before you send it out into this digital wasteland, or are you just blowing smoke out of your ass?… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read THE LAST WORD before the Kenton County Public LIEbrary censors it! Support true Internet free speech — Stop the Cabal and ‘Net Nazis! *** Gatewood Galbraith for Governor 1999 ***
You are really a brainwashed lib. why are you so affraid of religion. remeber it was the dems that favored slavery and still do with welfare. It was the dems that started the kkk, that is a pretty hatefull group. liberals associate more with facism and socialism than any repub. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (from The Last Word 3/31/98) RELIGIOUS WRONG I’m thoroughly exasperated with the Religious Right. For the past few years, I have been granting far too little coverage to the Religious Right, feeling it was a faction of the Right that had done so much to discredit itself that there was no point in emphasizing it. But who was I kidding? Today, NKU experienced an invasion by the College Republicans. These Hitler Youth amassed in the University Center wearing Gex Williams campaign buttons to show their support for the sodomy-obsessed candidate’s U.S. House bid. The young crypto-fascists were registering students to vote in the hopes that these newly registered voters would pay back the Grand Old Farty for their helpfulness by pulling the big elephant lever on Election Day. (Democrats hold registration and voting drives, too, but are they free from media scrutiny as the Republicans are?) A young woman with the College Nazis approached me and asked me if I was registered to vote, and I replied, "I’m already registered, but not with your screwed-up party." This was not my only face-to-face encounter with fascism today. At the supermarket, I saw a car plastered with enough right-wing stickers to completely cover the rear window. I strolled past a customer inside the store and couldn’t help but notice her "Nuke Iraq" T-shirt. The radio inside the store was tuned to a religious station, so I had to deal with being preached at not only by bumper stickers, shirts, and College Republicans, but also by the store itself and its insistence on treating customers to hellfire and brimstone over the audio system. Canada is starting to look pretty good. The Republican Party has become dominated by wild-eyed Religious Right wackos just as it coagulates its viselike grip on Northern Kentucky politics. The stranglehold of the Religious Right on the community shows more and more daily. Following the 1997 flood, for example, a recurring theme of letters sent to the local newspaper was that the flood was retribution from God for Kentucky’s failure to completely stamp out "permissiveness" and "promiscuity". To hear these zealots talk, one would think that society has continued to become more permissive following the close of the 1970s, but in fact, there is far less freedom–sexual and otherwise–today than 20 years ago. As one who recalls fondly the days when people stopped little short of having sex in public in full view of small children, I can attest to the loss of spirit over the past two decades. For most of the past 17 years, we have had leadership in Washington that has been afraid to use the word "condom". This accounts for the increase of sexually transmitted diseases, which has forced people to be more restrained. But this is exactly what the Religious Right wants: Frustrated by the unfeasibility of directly legislating morality, they resort to inaction against diseases such as AIDS and claim that it is a divinely imposed punishment against society and that if people don’t like it, tough. Jerry Falwell expressed such a sentiment a few years back. The yapping moralists are sooooo interested in what people do with their own bodies that they have to have some outlet–whether direct legislation or deliberate inaction–of enforcing their will. The issue of the Religious Right’s preoccupation with all things bedroom-related has been grating on my nerves more and more in recent weeks. It seems that a significant percentage of people in our area firmly believe that anyone who even thinks about sex is going to hell. These anti-sex fanatics do their worst to make everyone feel guilty for living, and as a result, we reside in a bleak, gray community where folks are made to feel as if they will be instantly struck dead if they dare step out of line. If you think that the puritanical mentality of others has no effect on me, you are wrong. It crushes my spirits. I have always been quite a rebel, but as life in this locale becomes more and more unbearable at the hands of those who think they know what is best for everyone else, the Right is about to learn the hard way what I am capable of. — You whine and whine about free speech, then you suggest that those who say,promote or adhere to things you don’t agree with are about to ‘ learn the hard way what you are capable of doing"? Do you actually read the stuff you write before you send it out into this digital wasteland, or are you just blowing smoke out of your ass?… Read THE LAST WORD before the Kenton County Public LIEbrary censors it! Support true Internet free speech — Stop the Cabal and ‘Net Nazis! *** Gatewood Galbraith for Governor 1999 ***
(from The Last Word 3/31/98) RELIGIOUS WRONG I’m thoroughly exasperated with the Religious Right. For the past few years, I have been granting far too little coverage to the Religious Right, feeling it was a faction of the Right that had done so much to discredit itself that there was no point in emphasizing it. But who was I kidding? Today, NKU experienced an invasion by the College Republicans. These Hitler Youth amassed in the University Center wearing Gex Williams campaign buttons to show their support for the sodomy-obsessed candidate’s U.S. House bid. The young crypto-fascists were registering students to vote in the hopes that these newly registered voters would pay back the Grand Old Farty for their helpfulness by pulling the big elephant lever on Election Day. (Democrats hold registration and voting drives, too, but are they free from media scrutiny as the Republicans are?) A young woman with the College Nazis approached me and asked me if I was registered to vote, and I replied, "I’m already registered, but not with your screwed-up party." This was not my only face-to-face encounter with fascism today. At the supermarket, I saw a car plastered with enough right-wing stickers to completely cover the rear window. I strolled past a customer inside the store and couldn’t help but notice her "Nuke Iraq" T-shirt. The radio inside the store was tuned to a religious station, so I had to deal with being preached at not only by bumper stickers, shirts, and College Republicans, but also by the store itself and its insistence on treating customers to hellfire and brimstone over the audio system. Canada is starting to look pretty good. The Republican Party has become dominated by wild-eyed Religious Right wackos just as it coagulates its viselike grip on Northern Kentucky politics. The stranglehold of the Religious Right on the community shows more and more daily. Following the 1997 flood, for example, a recurring theme of letters sent to the local newspaper was that the flood was retribution from God for Kentucky’s failure to completely stamp out "permissiveness" and "promiscuity". To hear these zealots talk, one would think that society has continued to become more permissive following the close of the 1970s, but in fact, there is far less freedom–sexual and otherwise–today than 20 years ago. As one who recalls fondly the days when people stopped little short of having sex in public in full view of small children, I can attest to the loss of spirit over the past two decades. For most of the past 17 years, we have had leadership in Washington that has been afraid to use the word "condom". This accounts for the increase of sexually transmitted diseases, which has forced people to be more restrained. But this is exactly what the Religious Right wants: Frustrated by the unfeasibility of directly legislating morality, they resort to inaction against diseases such as AIDS and claim that it is a divinely imposed punishment against society and that if people don’t like it, tough. Jerry Falwell expressed such a sentiment a few years back. The yapping moralists are sooooo interested in what people do with their own bodies that they have to have some outlet–whether direct legislation or deliberate inaction–of enforcing their will. The issue of the Religious Right’s preoccupation with all things bedroom-related has been grating on my nerves more and more in recent weeks. It seems that a significant percentage of people in our area firmly believe that anyone who even thinks about sex is going to hell. These anti-sex fanatics do their worst to make everyone feel guilty for living, and as a result, we reside in a bleak, gray community where folks are made to feel as if they will be instantly struck dead if they dare step out of line. If you think that the puritanical mentality of others has no effect on me, you are wrong. It crushes my spirits. I have always been quite a rebel, but as life in this locale becomes more and more unbearable at the hands of those who think they know what is best for everyone else, the Right is about to learn the hard way what I am capable of. — Read THE LAST WORD before the Kenton County Public LIEbrary censors it! Support true Internet free speech — Stop the Cabal and ‘Net Nazis! *** Gatewood Galbraith for Governor 1999 ***
This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario: Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check. Three weeks later, received notice of surcharge of $175 based on wife’s driving history. Total now for 6-month policy is $373. Three weeks after that, received yet another notice of surcharge adding $3,548 toward the 6-month policy. Total now is $3,921 for 6-month policy (or $7,842 for a year of liability-only auto insurance – no collision/comprehensive coverage). I immediately went to the insurance company to inquire into the huge premium increase, and when told that it was NOT an error, I immediately cancelled my insurance policy citing that it was ridiculous and that I could rent a car from a rental agency and take out the required coverage for less than what I’m paying just for basic insurance for my OWN car. Two years later: I’m being contacted by a collection agency wanting $1,578 for the length of time (6 weeks) that I had the insurance (they cited the effective date of the surcharges as the date that I took out the policy (24 February 1994) even though the surcharges were dated 21 March and 11 April, respectively — 3 and 6 weeks into the policy coverage), plus they want an additional $344.21 for interest (total demanded: $1922.21). Being that I already paid $198 and they wanted an additional $1,578, this bring the rate to $1,776 for 6 WEEKS of coverage (or $299 per week)! My question is: Do I have a case against this insurance company for providing one quote, receiving my business, then raising the premium to a ridiculous level and making it retroactive 6 weeks prior? Had I been quoted that amount ($3,921) for a 6-month policy at the very beginning, I’d have certainly taken my business elsewhere! Is the practice of adding surcharges and backdating them a legal practice, or should I feel comfortable fighting this case in court? Many thanks to any responders. Please respond via e-mail only. Richard E Sgrignoli
Nice critique of my post! I perhaps overstated the conservative side.
Not to worry. I probably overstated the risk taking side in my original post. Truth, of course, generally lies somewhere between the extremes. I have no problem with risk being taken when rewards are balanced.
I’m not sure what you mean by balanced. If you mean in terms of being balanced against a comprehensive asset allocation structure, risking only that the client can afford to lose without having to go rooting in garbage cans (OK, bit of an exageration here), I couldn’t agree more. If you mean balanced in the sense of the higher the risk the greater the potential gain, yes. I wish I know how to do it any other way. But, don’t we all?? I do not consider the stock market to be anything more than it is – a daily auction of securities in which the price fluctuates with expectations of numerous factors.
With one proviso, that the economy will continue to expand, and the overall market will, therefor, continue to trend upward. Barring, of course, permanent disaster such as being conquered by Cuba, or Bill C staying in office. (Yuk) Most of my clients are young and I sell a lot more term than WL or interest sensitive. I try to get them to get in the habit of saving something – anything – but save something every month. I had customers who lost some pretty heavy money (as a percentage of their total net assets) in the very late 70s and early 80s. To say it did not affect me would be a lie. Every one of them would have made generous returns had they stuck it out or rather been able to stick it out. They lost because they did not have balance and were afraid to stay any longer. They bailed out at the time that they should have been buying, but no one knew when the bottom would be reached.
Never underestimate the ability of people to shoot themselves in the foot. Risk tolerance is always a factor. Somewhere there is a balance between necessary and unecessary risk. When you are down in the market, toughing it out is a necessary risk. Selling is certain loss. Risk vs reward is OK. Avoiding risk in order to accept an absolutely certain loss is not. That’s another story – I had not sold them those funds – they were orphan clients. Perhaps I’ve been too strong in my support for safety – time will tell
I cannot judge that as I know none of your clients. Your post I took to be a rebuttal of a post you interpreted as too strongly supporting a too risky approach. Again, as you say, balance is the answer. BTW my primary business is personal lines P&C. I am curious to know what kind of expense loads are commonly being placed on the VULs now.
Well, one of the VULs I currently sell has a front load of 3.5%. They also collect 2.5% state premium tax, for a total front load of 6%. One time setting up charges (my term, for simplicity’s sake) may run as high as $50.00. A management fee taken out of the cash value fund runs between 1% and 1.8%, depending upon the fund. The insurance is about as cheap as you can buy, being Annual Renewable Term, and declining in face value month-by-month as the fund grows. Does this mean the fund has to perform pretty well to offset those costs? Yup! But among those funds are Janus’ IDEX Growth II, Fred Alger’s Small Cap Appreciation and American Capitol’s Mid Cap. I’ll let you look ‘em up. In addition, the loans against the CV are net interest free, as well as free of income tax. Index performance will do very nicely, thank you. What I like in the ULs I’ve seen are the monthly insurance costs expressed as such. What I seldom see explained to clients is the "expected improvement of mortality" that is often illustrated.
Most VULs have a guaranteed mortality that cannot be exceeded. I thought ULs did too. Have I misunderstood your comment?? It may be no worse than anticipated dividends often illustrated with mutual WL policies but experience with the better companies indicates that they usually err on the side of safety. I’m sure that this is not universally true any more than big UL players overstate their mortality figures but I read more about the excesses on the UL side. I also have never seen UL track (under option B) favorably against a good mutual plan when premiums were equal. I should perhaps have been more definitive on the interest sensitive side since some products are more predictible than others. I like to make my proposals from a base of guaranteed outcomes first with reasonable expectations of whatever the current and somewhere in between may end up. APL addresses the premium paying flexibility needed in most cases. Did I leave anything out? Rob
How about a VUL that has a fixed subaccount, allowing the client to balance his risk/reward ratio to his liking???
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have not answered my question about taking out a second mortgage on one’s house. Isn’t that borrowing you own money, by your reasoning? Food for thought. Rob Rob, Taking out a second mortgage is not borrowing your own money. A second mortgage uses the equity in your home as collateral againt the money you do borrow. In a cash value policy, you have paid the premium. Part of the premium goes into the so-called savings. So you pay for insurance, and a form of savings with one premium. Another point, you really never know what the cost of the insurance portion actually is. Also, after several years (typically 1-5 years) when you actually show a value for the savings portion, you must pay interest on any money taken out. This is the policy loan. So my question is… Why would you save money this way? when you could easily save in some other investment, or account, and not pay interest to use your money if you needed to. Thanks, Alan.
As stated previously, the "cash Value" inside of any insurance policy, be it term (many term policies are required by law to have same but usually only when the term plan exceeds 25 years), whole life, universal life, or whatever, the values do not belong to the policyholder – they belong to the company. The policies clearly state such! You know this. The reason that we are seeing term plans of less than 25 years is so that the companies do not have to return money to the policyholder in the event that he wishes to dump the policy. The companies (collectivly) have these values in their balance sheets but are not required to disclose the presence of same to the policyholder. The fact that such is not disclosed to the client does not mean that it does not exist, nor does it mean that a company will not reap a windfall proffit in the event of a policy lapse. Any term policy other than annual renewable term contains hidden cash values which the companies retain. "Cash value" policies are required to contain nonforfieture clauses because they ae anticipated, in design, to persist beyond 25 years – regardless of the expected premium paying period, which could be as short as one payment. These contracts obligate the insurer to lend the OWNER of the policy amounts up to (usually) 95% of the nonforfieture value at a contractual rate of interest. THE CASH VALUE IN ANY POLICY BELONGS TO THE INSURANCE COMPANY UNTIL THE OWNER OF THE POLICY RELEASES (in whole or in part) THE COMPANY FROM THE OBLIGATION OF HONORING (again in whole or part) A DEATH CLAIM. You cannot release the market value of a home (whether paid in or as a result of valuation inflation) without borrowing or selling (surrendering) the property! I previously used an illustration of a certificate of deposit that has been lost in the shuffle somewhere. We all could argue the merits, or lack therof for this type of investment, but they seem to remain popular with large numbers of investors. If you will read a CD contract, you will find that the bank has a legal right to force you to leave the money on deposit for the contractual term. Most bank will let you bail out if you are willing accept a penalty. In a lot of cases, when a depositor needs cash, they usually are faced with a decision – take the penalty hit, or borrow, pledging the CD as collateral. In the latter event, using the reasoning often espoused by BTID crowd, is this CD owner paying interest on his "own" money. NO! NO! NO! He is not. By contract, the money belongs to the bank until maturity! Telling a potential policyholder that he is borrowing his own money is dishonest. I’m tired of expaining this to people. It does not make any real difference what anyone buys as long as they buy enough to cover their loss. If everyone used the same reasoning being argued about the "two types" of life insurance in the purchase of automobiles, we would have a choice of Metros and Fleetwoods which we all know is BS! When I die, I want to go like my grandpa…in my sleep. Not screaming … like all the passengers in his car. Rob
I read your article about Primeamerica. If I am not mistaken, they group was previously owned by AL Williams. AL Williams is in fact bad news and he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid scheme. Jim Barbieri
Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans! As opposed to the great product known as "cash-value"?
I would say as apposed to other term policies. There are many term policies that are not as good as Primericas, BUT . . . . there are many other term policies that are better and far cheaper than Primerica’s. So that should give you some idea where Primerica is with regards to their term products. Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks. You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it. Rob Multi-level marketing, that’s a good one. Compare a full line financial services company to one that sells stuff from a catalog! And remember the only people that get rich in MLM are the ones that in at the beginning. Only a small % of people in MLM actually earn enough to support themselves, if they make any money at all it is usually only extra income. I assume that you have "proof" of you allegations? Were you hired by Primerica at one time? Are you in the insurance industry? Or are you just going by some rumor that you overheard?
Chad, one thing you can be CERTAIN about . . . Primerica IS a MLM company just as are many other successful legitimate companies. There is no reason to be defensive about this fact. Just find out how an RVP of Primerica gets paid and it’s not hard to see how the MLM works for Primerica. Is there any wonder why recruit, recruit, recruit is such an important thing for Primarica? AND, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. There is certainly a difference between MLM and a pyramid scheme. Though it’s hard to distinguish on the surface (in my opinion, anyway). Retards, Ted T. Roberts Independent Insurance Broker/Financial Planner
Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing Damage to the cash-value industry!
I’ll buy that. Damage by parroting half truths, untruths, and misconceptions that they got from their uplines. The dangers of getting all your information from one source, especially one that is self serving, are obvious. It is news to me that Primerica is prevented from doing business in several states. Could you be more specific. Primerica is not, and has never been banned from doing business in any state!
OK, as I said, it was news to me. Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product. Primerica is certainly legal and they do have products. Primerica is similiar to several sales organizations. Real estate, auto dealers ect.
Similar is some respects. Quite different in others. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t object to those differences. Admittedly, their term insurance is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense Trust fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has the highest front load allowed by law (8.5%). The fact that they are being sued in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others. Expensive compared to what? Which CST fund are you refering to? What states is PFS being sued?
Common Sense Trust, Growth, your best performing CST fund. Look it up in Morningstar, Forbes, Barron’s. The front load IS 8.5%, the highest allowed by law. Your CST II funds are NOT front loaded, they have back loads and 12b! fees totalling 6% or more. This is worse, it costs a lot more. I did not assert that they were being suid, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were. I was responding to a post that I feel damned PFS for all the wrong reasons. (snip) here’s a little information about them. (snipped, a lot of my comments) but I question the morality of that approach. You question the morality of the approach? I question the morality of an agent selling cash value for the sake of a higher commision check, instead of selling based on the clients needs!
So do I! So do we all!! Your attempts to take the moral high ground are not effective. You assert that ALL cash value insurance is a rip off, and that anyone who sells it does so only because of the commission, totally without regard to the needs of the client. Your attacks against the morals of all who disagree with you cast doubt upon your own "high moral standards". You are incredibly naive, very misinformed, or lacking in any interest in the truth. Their Network Marketing approach works. You mean multi level sales.
Is there a difference?? In 1991, when Primerica bought out the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left them in droves. I understand they lost 70% of their business in one year. They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach their former level. Just keep your eyes open, and do your homework. Even Greate things will happen with PFS!
What homework do you suggest that I do??? I am certainly willing to keep my eyes open. I’ll even agree that vast numbers of part time newbies can cause a lot of term sales to be made. I don’t agree that that is necessarily in the best interest of the majority of your clients, however. My data is over a year old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions concerned mutual funds. Your information is definitely "Old"
So enlighten us, sir. What percentage of sales IS for mutual funds?? 15%? 25%? You mean you’re only hurting 75% of your clients, who end up with NO insurance, and NO cash/investment? (snip) I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA. The statements above are just not supported by any FACTS.
So, give us some FACTS to work with, sir. How many of your PFS clients buy term and invest the difference, and how many buy term and blow the difference?? Do you help more than you hurt?? What are the figures, huh????? Bland assertions and unqualified denials just don’t cut the mustard. (snip) CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very high front load. CST has strong performance. Are you refering to any particular fund?
"CST has strong performance." You keep making totally unsupported statements. Look at Morningstar (assuming you have any upline who either makes enough or cares enough to buy it), Forbes, Barron’s, etc. The BEST Common Sense Trust fund, the Growth fund, has historically never been able to keep AVERAGE performance since inception of 12%. LOOK IT UP. Inform YOURSELF, before you continue your holy war. This is NOT strong performance. It is, by definition, average at best. slightly below average over time. (snip).. PFS complies with all of the laws governing this business!
Perhaps. I have heard non securities licensed pfs agents talking about your mutual funds and expounding upon the benefits of BTID. Do YOU have a securities license?? Should YOU be telling us that CST has strong performance. You OBVIOUSLY do not know what you’re talking about when you make that statement. I suspect that you have no securities license, or you wouldn’t make that statement. It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry, new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS, actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people. WHO? I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance False, VUL – the cost of insurance goes up every year!
So does the cost of term. You merely overcharge for the first years (as does everybody) and undercharge in later years. Cash value insurance actually does the same, it’s just that they use a longer period of time (life). However, your comment concerning the cost of insurance in VUL shows your ignorance. This is rather amusing, given your protestations concerning your mission to educate the public. In one sense, the cost of insurance does go up every year, as it does with your term. However the cost to the client does not. That is because VUL actually does what you claim to do for your clients (and only do for some 11%) and that is to help the client become self insuring. As the cash value goes up, the amount of insurance that the client buys goes down. This means that the amount of premium that goes to the insurance costs and the amount that goes to the fund remains essentially constant. You should really inform yourself about these products before you start "educating" your clients, much less advertise your lack of understanding on this newsgroup. t/ as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the form of loans with little or no net interest. So, having changed the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results of that change. Totally false! Tell me why VUL does not qualify for an IRA? The fact is that all cash value policies, the cash value is owned by the company and not the person contributing. WHY?
You give me so much amunition that I hardly know what to shoot down first. Why ever would you want to qualify VUL for an IRA?? You already have tax deferred growth and income tax free income from the VUL. The benefits of income tax free income far exceed, for many people, the benefits of tax deferred contributions. It would be nice to get all three , (tax deduction, tax deferred growth, and income tax free money out) but ya just can’t do that. Why doesn’t it qualify?? Because that’s the way the law reads. (You sure you have a securities license???) You think the cash value is owned by the company, instead of the client?? You probably think that the company keeps the cash value and just pays the inurance too, don’t you??? This is another of the misconceptions with which pfs "educates" their clients. As the cash value increases, the amount of insurance bought decreases. (This, incedentally, is how WL works as well as VUL. I suggest you buy Ben Baldwin’s THE NEW LIFE INSURANCE INVESTMENT ADVISOR, and READ it!!) So, if the client started out with $200K of insurance, when he gets to the point that he has $100K of cash value, he is only paying for, and only has, $100K of insurance. HOT FLASH!!! His death benefit is still $200K, BUT NOT BECAUSE THE INSURANCE KEEPS THE CASH VALUE!! You just don’t understand life insurance. Now, with VUL, when the cash value exceeds $200K, the IRS requires (in order for this to remain a valid life contract) that some small amount of insurance above and beyond the cash value be maintained. (Perhaps 10% above) So, a VUL client with $300K cash value not only gets the $300K paid to the beneficiary, an additional (approx) $30K of insurance is paid. So, in VUL, the company does NOT keep the cash value and just pay the insurance. In fact, it doesn’t really do that in whole life either. That’s just more of the half truths the pfs agents preach. Oh, by the way. The above comments about VUL, cash value and death benefit all addressed VUL, Option A. In Option B, the amount of insurance above the cash value remains constant. Yes, this costs more, but the client with $100K in cash value would have, as a death benefit, the $200K of insurance and the $100K of cash value paid out to the beneficiary. Both in the case of Option A, and in Option B, the entire amount is treated by the IRS as an income tax free death benefit. Estat taxe provisions
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Stick to the facts please. A.L.S. Alan L. Sheffield
Good advise. You should try it.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Response to SKIBUM: You are making me laugh! VUL is a rip off!! Why was it invented? Please send me the name of the person who has the kind of cash as you have stated, in a VUL policy. ($300K) You act as though a sales charge is bad. You must be more informed on expenses! Why would you ever suggest VUL and not an IRA account, especially in a mutual fund? How do you explain where the cash-value in the first several years in any cash-value plan? Including VUL. I might remind you that you pay taxes on your money only once. So how is VUL a tax advantage? Please educate me. As far as premiums. VUL never goes up? Yes it does. The unpaid portions of the premiums come from the cash value, right. ALL cash value insurance is a form of TERM bundled with a savings account which has some very, very strange banking rules. Oh yea, the company always owns the cash value portion, this is why you must pay interest on a so-called policy loan ( Why borrow your own money???) Send more laughs! A.L.S. Alan L. Sheffield
This kind of discussion seems to go on and on forever but I’m going to inject something regarding taxes. For what it is worth, and it varies from plan to plan, because a cash value plan is a single contract, the charges for the pure insurance are considered as part of the basis for tax purposes. In a cashout situation, the p/h would get to deduct all of his costs before any gain is calculated. Alan, you sent me something that was probably intended for skibum, or did you cc me? You have not answered my question about taking out a second mortgage on one’s house. Isn’t that borrowing you own money, by your reasoning? Food for thought. Rob
The first thing you need to do is contact the insurance company and find out exactly what the reasons were that they increased your premium so much. (Write them down verbatum or ask them for a letter detailing the reason for the misquote.) Once you have that information then we can address the situation.
Response to SKIBUM: You are making me laugh! VUL is a rip off!! Why was it invented? Please send me the name of the person who has the kind of cash as you have stated, in a VUL policy. ($300K) You act as though a sales charge is bad. You must be more informed on expenses! Why would you ever suggest VUL and not an IRA account, especially in a mutual fund? How do you explain where the cash-value in the first several years in any cash-value plan? Including VUL. I might remind you that you pay taxes on your money only once. So how is VUL a tax advantage? Please educate me. As far as premiums. VUL never goes up? Yes it does. The unpaid portions of the premiums come from the cash value, right. ALL cash value insurance is a form of TERM bundled with a savings account which has some very, very strange banking rules. Oh yea, the company always owns the cash value portion, this is why you must pay interest on a so-called policy loan ( Why borrow your own money???) Send more laughs! A.L.S. Alan L. Sheffield
(snipped, long discourse concerning my views on Primerica) Thanks for a well thought out article, even though I do not agree with all that you have said. (I for one, find variable UL horrible.) I am not a big fan of UL period. Even though I feel that many of its elements are a little more honest than others.
Horrible?? Some VULs have a fixed, guaranteed subaccount in addition to the equity and bond based funds. A client can choose any amount, including all (which rather defeats the purpose) of his money into that fixed account. The client can choose a mix of fixed, conservative, middle and aggressive investment approaches, according to desire. What, by the way, do you have against flexible premium (UL) insurance?? Would you expand upon that, please?? Also, "a little more honest than others"?? Than what others, and in what way? (snip) What is true, is that vast numbers of people are now investing directly or indirectly in the stock market. Perhaps there is enough $ in the pipeline to drive the stock market to 10,000.
This is a Zero Sum game??? But in time it will slow up.
That, of course, is the only guarantee in the market. Once the this top is reached,
What makes you think there is such a thing as a "top"? will the "smart money" still be in the market? Hell no!
Wrong, you can make money on a down market too. The smart money will be making money on shorts! Whose customers are going to get soaked? Not mine! Think it can’t happen? Read history! Think it can’t happen again? Read more history!
I think you need to read the history. EVEN INCLUDING 1929, the average performance/gain of the stock market as a whole has been 10.3% (the last time I checked) What you forget with your zero sum game/top/ etc, thinking is that the American economy is expanding. There is no set amount of wealth, that we’re going to run out of. The Club of Rome and other Malthusians forgot technology in their gloomy preditions of total collapse and the depletion of all natural recourses. Our oil reserves are greater today than at the time of the Club of Rome predictions….better location….better extraction techniques,,, better efficiency of oil utilizations….. Yes, the market WILL go down, but it will also go up, as long as we have an expanding economy. This is a dangerous time. There is so much optimism that even Joe Lunchbucket thinks he can make money in the markets, by relying on fund managers
Mutual funds, measured by theS & P 500 have averaged 12% gain for over 60 years. Ya don’t loose money by buying at the wrong time. Ya loose it by selling. And the reason that so many people went broke in 1929 is that they had bought on margin, and couldn’t cover the margin. Read your history. Fund managers (good ones too) were around in October of 1928. Did they get their investors out?
No, they held on and made money after the market uptrended. NO! Term insurance salesmen were hating life in the 1930s during the deflation. Even the old "weekly premium" guys looked like heros compared to the BTID crowd. Anyone with a "lousy" whole life policy was holding gold! I have no doubt that we will see another collapse, and I do not want my client’s life insurance chestnuts in the fire when it comes. What the heck happened to good old fashioned caution and laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk?
Yeah. And the thousands who had been paying premiums to First Executive, et. al. sure are happy, right??? So, you think that having your money spread over hundreds of companies in a mutual fund is horrible compared to haveing it all in one insurance company?? I’d agree that having all your money in the market is a bad idea. I also assert that having all your money in a fixed investment like whole life (or CDs for that matter) is planned poverty. The idea of laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk is still alive and well. No one has asserted anything to the contrary…..at least I didn’t. However WL is no more the only (or even best, necessarily) foundation of that liquidity, than VUL is the only way to risk for possible gain. I think you took my comments that VUL can, sometimes, outperform BTID (It is just another way to BTID) to be an attack on WL. I meant no such attack. My statement was that AS AN INVESTMENT, BTID outperformed WL. Yes, it is possible to buy very expensive term and poor, highly loaded investments. But, still, as investments go, WL doesn’t give a very good ROI. Neither do CDs. Ya pays fer security, and if that’s what you’re after, well and good. I’m all for it!! BTID is a concept that has been around for longer than either of us has been on the planet. The problem with it is that customers more often than not BTSD (buy term and spend the difference).
I believe I said that. My point was that only some 11% of Primerica’s customers actually invested. BTW, PFS types out there, If my figures are wrong, I’d be delighted to hear from you. Please, some supporting documentation, or source of your figures. No more RDS (Rectal Data Storage) data please. Spurious attacks on my person and on the industry can left out too. DATA please….just the facts. Traditional "whole life" can be and still is a good purchase in most of the clients I see (sooner or later).
I won’t dispute that. The same can be said for interest sensitive whole life.
You like interest sensitive whole life, but you don’t like UL??? Again, it is the flexible premiums you object to?? I think I missed something I see people being sold the variable product who have NO savings for short term financial needs
I also see those same people being sold whole life. What’s your point? You said you thought VUL was horrible, now, it seems to me, that you object to the timing of the sale???? I would rather hand them the toll free number for Vangard and advise them to look into Vangard’s index funds and be their own investment advisor.
For lots of folks, that’s not a bad idea. I, on the other hand, would rather sell them those mutual funds, since that’s what I do. I can say from experience that the old participating WL saved my agency when Bush had us involved in desert storm and Norfolk was like a ghost town. (The funds I own were not doing so hot at the time.) The paid up additional insurance that the dividends had purchased kept my own program from failing.
A well funded VUL can achieve the same thing. If you stop the premiums too soon, of course, not. That’s one of the main risks of VUL, to which I have alluded in prior posts. (snip) no one , currently makes it economically rewarding enough for bright people to see a career in our field.
Well, that is one of the main argument that the MLMers use to support the MLM concept. It IS possible in an MLM, just damn unlikely. Maybe one in 10,000 MLMers make really big bucks, but there are those who do. Their point is that no employees make that kind of money. Damn few insurance salesmen either. What’s the natinal average, 1 sale a week and maybe $30K? I find little to like about MLM because I have never seen a MLM plan that was not conceived on the idea that the "real" money is made off the sales of "downline" people and not off personal production which I think is where it has to be. I don’t think we disagree on this one.
Well, actually we don’t agree. You’ve described every sales organization I ever saw. Do the sales managers, general manager, and owner of your local Ford dealer operate any differently?? Does your insurance company?? The whole concept of "sales management" is that the manager "facilitates" and the salesmen sell. I don’t see any difference. My major objection to most MLM organizations is that they sell things to each other at different prices. You have a whole heirarchy of dealers, promoters, executives, super stars, whatever, recuriting "newbies". The idea is that they sell the "newbie" his "stock" of vitamens, filters, whatever, and everybody up the line gets a cut of that wholesale transaction. In the unlikely event that the newbie retails his stock to the public, nobody makes a dime, except the newbie. So, where’s the "upline" incentive to help the newbie retail his product???? No, they might help him wholesale to more newbies, but nobody cares if he retails. Some 80 to 85% never order any more stock. So, everybody is out looking for new newbies to make those wholesale transactions that are the way they get paid. The vast majority of MLM "dealers" are not dealers, they are customers, they just haven’t figured that out. BTW, bringing out new products is a good way to get more money out of all those dealer/customers, too. That’s my objection to standard MLM. As practiced by Primerica, I don’t object to the structure. I do object to the fact that thousands of untrained, brainwashed, part time agents, most of whom last only a few months (if that) are unleashed upon an unwary public by that method. Their "one size fits all" philosophy may be easy to grasp, in a superficial way, but it hurts a lot more people than it helps, as I said in my earlier post. It sounds cynical, but I think too many of the companies are run by lawyers and bean counters who have never sold a policy to anyone (many would consider it beneath them and hold their sales force in contempt) and have no concept what goes on in the "field"
Which is, by the way, essentially, the same argument you used against MLM.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t mean to pound on you. Based upon your response, you are the only other responder (that I have seen) to this forum who actually showed some real knowledge of our business and some experience. We both
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario: Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check. Three weeks later, Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area. Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates. They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them. I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop What a joke! The average career of a Primerica "insurance expert" is about 30 days! It takes about that long for them to be exposed to the real world – which is usually just after they have alienated every friend and family member they have trying to get them to buy into the stupid pyramid scheme (make lots of money off someone else even more stupid than you are).
So I guess that Prudential, Merill Lynch, Century 21, and any other Financial Service, Insurance, or Real Estate office is a pyramid scheme as well? Apparently you have no idea how the "real world" works. Primerica runs its offices the same way as anyone else, with one exception, they do not advertise in the newspaper for job openings. They hire based on personal recommendations. BTW, if someone is not interested then they are not interested, the office I was contacted by does not try to pressure people. For your information a pyramid is when you give money to someone and do not get anything in return. It is only a pyramid when no product, service, or information is given in return for the money. Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans!
As opposed to the great product known as "cash-value"? Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks. You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it. Rob
Multi-level marketing, that’s a good one. Compare a full line financial services company to one that sells stuff from a catalog! And remember the only people that get rich in MLM are the ones that in at the beginning. Only a small % of people in MLM actually earn enough to support themselves, if they make any money at all it is usually only extra income. I assume that you have "proof" of you allegations? Were you hired by Primerica at one time? Are you in the insurance industry? Or are you just going by some rumor that you overheard? —
I read your article about Primeamerica. If I am not mistaken, they group was previously owned by AL Williams. AL Williams is in fact bad news and he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid scheme. Jim Barbieri
Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing, I have to take exception to a couple of your comments. It is news to me that Primerica is prevented from doing business in several states. Could you be more specific. If you’re right, it’s good amunition. If you’re wrong, you shouldn’t be saying it on the open net. Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product. Primerica is certainly legal and they do have products. Admittedly, their term insurance is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense Trust fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has the highest front load allowed by law (8.5%). The fact that they are being sued in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others. I am not, nor have I ever been (nor will I) a Primerica agent. However, as I understand it, here’s a little information about them. A L WMS began in the ’70s, pushing the undenyable position that buy term and investing the difference provided more insurance coverage and greater investment performance than did traditional Whole Life (WL), still does, for that matter. They were quite successful and became the largest seller of term insurance in the world. They were, quite literally, a driving force in changing the industry. Because they tended to specialize in replacing already extant WL, usually calling it a ripoff and questioning the morals of the agent who originally sold it, they made a lot of enemies. Their tactics may have been legal, but I question the morality of that approach. Their Network Marketing approach works. Much as we deplore such organizations as AMWAY, et. al. many of them are mutli billion dollar enterprizes. Perhaps the individual agent most often fails to make any money, to speak of, as a marketing strategy Network Marketing has become the strategy of the 90s and very many Fortune 500 companies are lineing up to get into it. At one time A L WMS had over 200,000 agents, 35,000 of which also had securities licenses. (There-in lies a problem that I will address later). In 1991, when Primerica bought out the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left them in droves. I understand they lost 70% of their business in one year. They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach their former level. Back to the problem I mentioned above. Only 35K out of 200K had securities licenses. That’s what, 17 and a half percent? Now, with 200 thousand people (most part time and ill trained) out preaching the benefits of buy term, invest the difference (BTID) and only 35,000 prepared to sell the investment, guess what happens. Right!! A lot more term got sold than did mutual funds. My data is over a year old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions concerned mutual funds. Given that Primerica specializes in replacing WL, then we see that the following happens. 1. The client already posesses a WL policy that is permanent insurance with a cash value (arguably low, but present) 2. 89% replace that permanent, cash value with term only. 3. 15, 20, or 25 years later (depending upon the length of the term contract) the client has no insurance (can’t afford to renew, even if he/she IS insurable) and NO cash value. 4. Had the client kept the WL contract (as bad as the Primerica rep will assert that it is) he/she would STILL have insurance, and WOULD HAVE a cash value, however little. I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA. Admittedly, the few who actually set up an investment, and stayed with it, are better off than with traditional WL. Few did, and the majority got sold CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very high front load. Additional thoughts; With over 80% of it’s agents insurance licensed only, yet out preaching the benefits of BTID, I question the legality of the system. If what that agent says in any way can be construed as a offer to sell a security, and that agent has no security license, heavy fines and even jail terms are possible. It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry, new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS, actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people. I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance, as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the form of loans with little or no net interest. So, having changed the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results of that change. Hope this of of some use to you…. Cheers, Skibum
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario: Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check. Three weeks later, Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area. Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates. They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them. I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop
What a joke! The average career of a Primerica "insurance expert" is about 30 days! It takes about that long for them to be exposed to the real world – which is usually just after they have alienated every friend and family member they have trying to get them to buy into the stupid pyramid scheme (make lots of money off someone else even more stupid than you are). Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans! Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks. You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it. Rob
Response to SKIBUM: You are making me laugh! VUL is a rip off!! Why was it invented? Please send me the name of the person who has the kind of cash as you have stated, in a VUL policy. ($300K)
Your post is a joke. You are a joke. I have repeatedly asked you for specifics. I have asked you to explain your comments. I have asked you what provisions of your products you feel are superior to those of other companies. I tried to explain to you what VUL is, and how it works. Your either did not read my post, did not understand it, or are so blinded by what you "know" that all other data is ignored. VUL is a ripoff????? You have no idea what VUL is, or how it works. You have repeatedly proved that with your silly assertations. You don’t even know how Whole Life works, and I doubt that you know your own term works. You seem to think that because your term has a guaranteed upper limit beyond which the premium cannot be raised, means that the premium is guaranteed. Your CURRENT premium is not guaranteed beyond the first year. Past the first year, that premium can be raised at will. I will try to explain VUL so simply that even you can understand it. VUL is a way to buy term, and invest the difference…..in something that is income tax free. There are, in most VULs, some 10 to 20 different underlying funds in which the client can invest. Among the funds in various VULs are Fidility funds, Fortis funds, Janus/IDEX funds, Fred Alger Small Cap Appreciation…….ranging from money market funds to very aggressive growth funds. The premiums are NOT tax deductable. The funds, however, grow tax deferred (that means you don’t pay tax on the growth). Money you take out of the VUL, in the form of (often) zero net interest, or very low (1 to 2%) loans, are free of income tax. For some people, the benefit of income tax free income far exceeds the benefit of tax deductable contributions. So, if I can put the same amount of money in a VUL, get insurance at a cost per thousand significantly lower than you pay for it with PFS, get investments that out perform CST Growth by 4 to 6%, and get 20%, or much better, more after tax income than with your BTID, this, you think is a ripoff???? You think ending up with $300K after 25 to 35 years is a lot??? I repeat, do you have a securities license??? I’ve asked you this before. Do you have a right to an opinion??? You act as though a sales charge is bad. You must be more informed on expenses!
You refer, of course, to my comments about Common (NON)Sense Trust having an 8.5% front load, the highest allowed by law. No, I don’t think sales charges are bad. I do, however, think that 8.5% front load for an average to below average performing fund (CST Growth, the BEST CST fund) is, you should pardon the expression, a ripoff. 20th Century Ultra, a no load has beat the S & P average of 12% over the long haul by 5 percentage points. 4 to 5% load is about the highest that most funds charge. This is all public data. You ought to read some, sometime. Why would you ever suggest VUL and not an IRA account, especially in a mutual fund?
Again, I’ve already told you a couple of times. An IRA lets you deduct contributions (well, some of the people) from current income, and gives you tax deferred growth. After age 59 and a half, all withdrawals are taxed as normal income in the year in which they are taken. (Do I really have to explain this??? Do you have a securities license??) VULs do not qualify for tax deductable contributions. (What the hell, I’ve got people who’re putting $1000/mo into a VUL…couldn’t deduct that in an IRA either….over 2000 Dollars…single guy) A VUL does, however qualify for tax deferred growth. When the money is taken out of the VUL it is free of income tax. You pay the cost of the insurance in order to avoid the cost of the income tax. STRICTLY ANALYZED AS INVESTMENTS, a VUL will beat an IRA in some cases, especially for younger, healthier clients. In those cases, you could consider the insurance of the VUL as a freebie. However, we’ve been discussing BTID. If the individual is older, or not a good risk, the cost of the VUL and concomittant insurance will exceed the value of the tax break. But, the cost of the term in BTID would also be very high and the VUL might well outperform the BTID. Sometimes is does, sometimes it doesn’t. Ya gotta crunch the numbers. So, why would I ever suggest VUL??? Because it works better, sometimes. Sometimes it doesn’t, so I sell him term (if he wants insurance) and a good mutual fund (consistant with his risk tolerance, needs, etc). You see, Alan, most of the people you’ve been blathering at sell more term than you do. We BTID too, and we do it better, with far cheaper, better products. How do you explain where the cash-value in the first several years in any cash-value plan? Including VUL.
That’s pretty easy. I say, "See, here it is." Every VUL I ever saw had cash value in the first year. I will admit that I haven’t seen them all. But if I’d seen one, I’ve seen more than you have. If you had, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I might remind you that you pay taxes on your money only once. So how is VUL a tax advantage? Please educate me.
Actually, money is taxed several times. I won’t even argue the point. Go read something….anything. How is VUL a tax advantage compared to what?? Compared to an IRA. (Anybody notice the rules here?? It seems to be that I’m trying to compare VUL to BTID, and the PFSers always want to just compare the investment. Oh, well) Alan, as I’ve stated before, and freely admit. it is not ALWAYS an advantage compared to an IRA. Compared to your term and CST it has lots of advantages for a great many people…again not all. For some people, a good index fund with it’s tax advantage (get somebody else to explain distributions, capital gains, etc.) is better. I never said it was. You said it is a ripoff. It is not. Overcharging (8.5% front load) for average to below average (<12%) performing mutual funds……now THAT might be a ripoff…. As far as premiums. VUL never goes up? Yes it does. The unpaid portions of the premiums come from the cash value, right.
Again, Alan, you didn’t read my posting, you didn’t understand it, or you are blinded by what you "know" because your upline told you so. Let’s be more specific. Yes, the cost per thousand of the Annual Renewable Term in a VUL goes up. However, since the amount of insurance bought goes down as the cash value goes up, the "cost of insurance" , or, the amount of premium dollar going toward insurance, stays roughly the same. Is this so difficult to understand??? "Unpaid portions of the premiums"??? What the hell are you talking about???? You mean if the client quits paying premiums?? Yes, that’s one of the things that can happen. If it happens to PFS, you cancell the policy. In the outyears, when the cash value has outstripped the original death benefit level, the client has retired and no longer pays premiums, yes the cost of the small amount of insurance required by the IRS will come out of the cash value. It will be very little, comparitively speaking. ALL cash value insurance is a form of TERM bundled with a savings account which has some very, very strange banking rules.
There is truth in the first part of your statement. Mostly misconception in the second part. I will address that in response to one of your next comments. Oh yea, the company always owns the cash value portion, this is why you must pay interest on a so-called policy loan ( Why borrow your own money???)
OK,,,,,this is one of the big contradictions in the PFS party line. On the one hand, pfsers maintain that the company owns the cash value. On the other hand, they whine about paying interest on "your own money". Which is it, Alan? Do you think the company owns the cash value and rips you off by not paying the death benefit AND the cash value (I debunked that in my last post) Or, do you think that you own it and the company is ripping you off by making you pay interest to borrow your own money. Come on, Alan. You can’t have it both ways. Actually YOU own the cash value. However, in cash value insurance, as the cash value increases, the amound of insurance being bought decreases. In the case of whole life, the two lines don’t cross, and the death benefit paid out remains the same. That death benefit is, however, a mixture of insurance and cash value. The best explanation of this can be found in Ben Baldwin’s THE NEW LIFE INSURANCE INVESTMENT GUIDE, Ch 4, pgs 37 thru 40. In the case of variable life the cash value usually will ultimately exceed the original death benefit and that’s where the IRS "corridor" of insurance comes in, making the death benefit mixture of cash value and insurance exceed the cash value by a small percentage (10%??) Both the cash value and the insurance are paid, again. I keep explaining this to you. Now we get to the "peculiar banking practices" ( I also explained this in my last post) You just don’t get it, do you??? In VUL, some of the cash value is removed to an escrow account. The escrow account is then used as collateral, for a loan from another source (usually the insurance company’s general account). Escrow loans have been normal practice for a hell of a long time. There is little, or no, net interest charged. Whole life works differently, and usually charges higher interest. I won’t go into it. Again, I ask you, let’s see something beyond bland assertations. Things are not true just because you say them. Don’t just repeat your misapprehensions, WHERE’S THE BEEF??? WHAT is so great about CST and Smith Barney. You say they’re "strong". What is your source? Compared to what, bond funds??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Send more laughs!
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read your article about Primeamerica. If I am not mistaken, they group was previously owned by AL Williams. AL Williams is in fact bad news and he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid scheme. Jim Barbieri Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing
Damage to the cash-value industry! I have to take exception to a couple of your comments. It is news to me that Primerica is prevented from doing business in several states. Could you be more specific. If you’re right, it’s good amunition. If you’re wrong, you shouldn’t be saying it on the open net.
Primerica is not, and has never been banned from doing business in any state! Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product. Primerica is certainly legal and they do have products.
Primerica is similiar to several sales organizations. Real estate, auto dealers ect. Admittedly, their term insurance is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense Trust fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has the highest front load allowed by law (8.5%). The fact that they are being sued in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others.
Expensive compared to what? Which CST fund are you refering to? What states is PFS being sued? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am not, nor have I ever been (nor will I) a Primerica agent. However, as I understand it, here’s a little information about them. A L WMS began in the ’70s, pushing the undenyable position that buy term and investing the difference provided more insurance coverage and greater investment performance than did traditional Whole Life (WL), still does, for that matter. They were quite successful and became the largest seller of term insurance in the world. They were, quite literally, a driving force in changing the industry. Because they tended to specialize in replacing already extant WL, usually calling it a ripoff and questioning the morals of the agent who originally sold it, they made a lot of enemies. Their tactics may have been legal, but I question the morality of that approach.
You question the morality of the approach? I question the morality of an agent selling cash value for the sake of a higher commision check, instead of selling based on the clients needs! Their Network Marketing approach works.
You mean multi level sales. Much as we deplore such organizations as AMWAY, et. al. many of them are mutli billion dollar enterprizes. Perhaps the individual agent most often fails to make any money, to speak of, as a marketing strategy Network Marketing has become the strategy of the 90s and very many Fortune 500 companies are lineing up to get into it. At one time A L WMS had over 200,000 agents, 35,000 of which also had securities licenses. (There-in lies a problem that I will address later). In 1991, when Primerica bought out the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left them in droves. I understand they lost 70% of their business in one year. They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach their former level.
Just keep your eyes open, and do your homework. Even Greate things will happen with PFS! Back to the problem I mentioned above. Only 35K out of 200K had securities licenses. That’s what, 17 and a half percent? Now, with 200 thousand people (most part time and ill trained) out preaching the benefits of buy term, invest the difference (BTID) and only 35,000 prepared to sell the investment, guess what happens. Right!! A lot more term got sold than did mutual funds. My data is over a year old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions concerned mutual funds.
Your information is definitely "Old" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Given that Primerica specializes in replacing WL, then we see that the following happens. 1. The client already posesses a WL policy that is permanent insurance with a cash value (arguably low, but present) 2. 89% replace that permanent, cash value with term only. 3. 15, 20, or 25 years later (depending upon the length of the term contract) the client has no insurance (can’t afford to renew, even if he/she IS insurable) and NO cash value. 4. Had the client kept the WL contract (as bad as the Primerica rep will assert that it is) he/she would STILL have insurance, and WOULD HAVE a cash value, however little. I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA.
The statements above are just not supported by any FACTS. Admittedly, the few who actually set up an investment, and stayed with it, are better off than with traditional WL. Few did, and the majority got sold CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very high front load.
CST has strong performance. Are you refering to any particular fund? Additional thoughts; With over 80% of it’s agents insurance licensed only, yet out preaching the benefits of BTID, I question the legality of the system. If what that agent says in any way can be construed as a offer to sell a security, and that agent has no security license, heavy fines and even jail terms are possible.
Thats true, but PFS complies with all of the laws governing this business! It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry, new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS, actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people.
WHO? I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance
False, VUL – the cost of insurance goes up every year! as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the form of loans with little or no net interest. So, having changed the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results of that change.
Totally false! Tell me why VUL does not qualify for an IRA? The fact is that all cash value policies, the cash value is owned by the company and not the person contributing. WHY? Hope this of of some use to you…. Cheers, Skibum
Cheers, Alan L. Sheffield Alan L. Sheffield
Great Debate, but one in which both sides are skewing their stuff. 1) ALW did much for the industry, changed it in fact, people first need the amount of protection right for their families and their wants, cash value or term, the agent that does this for his clients did the best possible thing. I just paid a death benefit on a $100,000 whole life policy, converted to whole life 4 years ago. the man was 59 when he died. He had a permanent need, for his business. so whole life. He would have spent less on the term. No one knew he would die early. He could afford the 100K to match the permanent need he had. It was the best decision at the time. He had term before the need was considered permanent. 2) Most people , investments or no, want to keep some life insurance in force for their life, more so those with fewer assets.The level terms are great and serve a purpose, but can short change people in later years. Modified UL’s often can offer a way to bridge the gap, and offer a term with a permanent option later on. 3) There was indeed a time when MILICO’s operations were suspended in Tennessee, Texas, and at least one other state. The COMMON SENSE TERM book was cited in the Texas case, Primamerica alienated much of its field force, and created NMA and WMA as competion in the process. These orgs have replaced substantial pfs term with modified UL. and that of a great many other companies. 4) Multi-level works, can be done honestly and well. PFS failed in that respect. The move for PFS and its offshoots of ex ALW management has been decidedly toward the traditional, in reputation. It is a far cry from the agressive on size fits all approach. 5) It all comes down to what fits the clients’ needs. Not one size but many as there are many clients. Low budget, High budget, investment, estate planning, business. How an agent meet those needs is his measure. Glad to add my two bits. Keith
Nice critique of my post! I perhaps overstated the conservative side. I have no problem with risk being taken when rewards are balanced. I do not consider the stock market to be anything more than it is – a daily auction of securities in which the price fluctuates with expectations of numerous factors. Most of my clients are young and I sell a lot more term than WL or interest sensitive. I try to get them to get in the habit of saving something – anything – but save something every month. I had customers who lost some pretty heavy money (as a percentage of their total net assets) in the very late 70s and early 80s. To say it did not affect me would be a lie. Every one of them would have made generous returns had they stuck it out or rather been able to stick it out. They lost because they did not have balance and were afraid to stay any longer. They bailed out at the time that they should have been buying, but no one knew when the bottom would be reached. That’s another story – I had not sold them those funds – they were orphan clients. Perhaps I’ve been too strong in my support for safety – time will tell. BTW my primary business is personal lines P&C. I am curious to know what kind of expense loads are commonly being placed on the VULs now. What I like in the ULs I’ve seen are the monthly insurance costs expressed as such. What I seldom see explained to clients is the "expected improvement of mortality" that is often illustrated. It may be no worse than anticipated dividends often illustrated with mutual WL policies but experience with the better companies indicates that they usually err on the side of safety. I’m sure that this is not universally true any more than big UL players overstate their mortality figures but I read more about the excesses on the UL side. I also have never seen UL track (under option B) favorably against a good mutual plan when premiums were equal. I should perhaps have been more definitive on the interest sensitive side since some products are more predictible than others. I like to make my proposals from a base of guaranteed outcomes first with reasonable expectations of whatever the current and somewhere in between may end up. APL addresses the premium paying flexibility needed in most cases. Did I leave anything out? Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snipped, long discourse concerning my views on Primerica) Thanks for a well thought out article, even though I do not agree with all that you have said. (I for one, find variable UL horrible.) I am not a big fan of UL period. Even though I feel that many of its elements are a little more honest than others. Horrible?? Some VULs have a fixed, guaranteed subaccount in addition to the equity and bond based funds. A client can choose any amount, including all (which rather defeats the purpose) of his money into that fixed account. The client can choose a mix of fixed, conservative, middle and aggressive investment approaches, according to desire. What, by the way, do you have against flexible premium (UL) insurance?? Would you expand upon that, please?? Also, "a little more honest than others"?? Than what others, and in what way? (snip) What is true, is that vast numbers of people are now investing directly or indirectly in the stock market. Perhaps there is enough $ in the pipeline to drive the stock market to 10,000. This is a Zero Sum game??? But in time it will slow up. That, of course, is the only guarantee in the market. Once the this top is reached, What makes you think there is such a thing as a "top"? will the "smart money" still be in the market? Hell no! Wrong, you can make money on a down market too. The smart money will be making money on shorts! Whose customers are going to get soaked? Not mine! Think it can’t happen? Read history! Think it can’t happen again? Read more history! I think you need to read the history. EVEN INCLUDING 1929, the average performance/gain of the stock market as a whole has been 10.3% (the last time I checked) What you forget with your zero sum game/top/ etc, thinking is that the American economy is expanding. There is no set amount of wealth, that we’re going to run out of. The Club of Rome and other Malthusians forgot technology in their gloomy preditions of total collapse and the depletion of all natural recourses. Our oil reserves are greater today than at the time of the Club of Rome predictions….better location….better extraction techniques,,, better efficiency of oil utilizations….. Yes, the market WILL go down, but it will also go up, as long as we have an expanding economy. This is a dangerous time. There is so much optimism that even Joe Lunchbucket thinks he can make money in the markets, by relying on fund managers Mutual funds, measured by theS & P 500 have averaged 12% gain for over 60 years. Ya don’t loose money by buying at the wrong time. Ya loose it by selling. And the reason that so many people went broke in 1929 is that they had bought on margin, and couldn’t cover the margin. Read your history. Fund managers (good ones too) were around in October of 1928. Did they get their investors out? No, they held on and made money after the market uptrended. NO! Term insurance salesmen were hating life in the 1930s during the deflation. Even the old "weekly premium" guys looked like heros compared to the BTID crowd. Anyone with a "lousy" whole life policy was holding gold! I have no doubt that we will see another collapse, and I do not want my client’s life insurance chestnuts in the fire when it comes. What the heck happened to good old fashioned caution and laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk? Yeah. And the thousands who had been paying premiums to First Executive, et. al. sure are happy, right??? So, you think that having your money spread over hundreds of companies in a mutual fund is horrible compared to haveing it all in one insurance company?? I’d agree that having all your money in the market is a bad idea. I also assert that having all your money in a fixed investment like whole life (or CDs for that matter) is planned poverty. The idea of laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk is still alive and well. No one has asserted anything to the contrary…..at least I didn’t. However WL is no more the only (or even best, necessarily) foundation of that liquidity, than VUL is the only way to risk for possible gain. I think you took my comments that VUL can, sometimes, outperform BTID (It is just another way to BTID) to be an attack on WL. I meant no such attack. My statement was that AS AN INVESTMENT, BTID outperformed WL. Yes, it is possible to buy very expensive term and poor, highly loaded investments. But, still, as investments go, WL doesn’t give a very good ROI. Neither do CDs. Ya pays fer security, and if that’s what you’re after, well and good. I’m all for it!! BTID is a concept that has been around for longer than either of us has been on the planet. The problem with it is that customers more often than not BTSD (buy term and spend the difference). I believe I said that. My point was that only some 11% of Primerica’s customers actually invested. BTW, PFS types out there, If my figures are wrong, I’d be delighted to hear from you. Please, some supporting documentation, or source of your figures. No more RDS (Rectal Data Storage) data please. Spurious attacks on my person and on the industry can left out too. DATA please….just the facts. Traditional "whole life" can be and still is a good purchase in most of the clients I see (sooner or later). I won’t dispute that. The same can be said for interest sensitive whole life. You like interest sensitive whole life, but you don’t like UL??? Again, it is the flexible premiums you object to?? I think I missed something I see people being sold the variable product who have NO savings for short term financial needs I also see those same people being sold whole life. What’s your point? You said you thought VUL was horrible, now, it seems to me, that you object to the timing of the sale???? I would rather hand them the toll free number for Vangard and advise them to look into Vangard’s index funds and be their own investment advisor. For lots of folks, that’s not a bad idea. I, on the other hand, would rather sell them those mutual funds, since that’s what I do. I can say from experience that the old participating WL saved my agency when Bush had us involved in desert storm and Norfolk was like a ghost town. (The funds I own were not doing so hot at the time.) The paid up additional insurance that the dividends had purchased kept my own program from failing. A well funded VUL can achieve the same thing. If you stop the premiums too soon, of course, not. That’s one of the main risks of VUL, to which I have alluded in prior posts. (snip) no one , currently makes it economically rewarding enough for bright people to see a career in our field. Well, that is one of the main argument that the MLMers use to support the MLM concept. It IS possible in an MLM, just damn unlikely. Maybe one in 10,000 MLMers make really big bucks, but there are those who do. Their point is that no employees make that kind of money. Damn few insurance salesmen either. What’s the natinal average, 1 sale a week and maybe $30K? I find little to like about MLM because I
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You have not answered my question about taking out a second mortgage on one’s house. Isn’t that borrowing you own money, by your reasoning? Food for thought. Rob
Rob, Taking out a second mortgage is not borrowing your own money. A second mortgage uses the equity in your home as collateral againt the money you do borrow. In a cash value policy, you have paid the premium. Part of the premium goes into the so-called savings. So you pay for insurance, and a form of savings with one premium. Another point, you really never know what the cost of the insurance portion actually is. Also, after several years (typically 1-5 years) when you actually show a value for the savings portion, you must pay interest on any money taken out. This is the policy loan. So my question is… Why would you save money this way? when you could easily save in some other investment, or account, and not pay interest to use your money if you needed to. Thanks, Alan. Alan L. Sheffield
Jim, (Primerica not Primeamerica for future reference) Your comments are unfounded, about A.L. Williams. Travelers Group (Formerly Primerica Corporation) bought A.L. Williams back in 1990. FYI – Primerica Financial Services has never been prevented from doing business in any state. Don’t take my word for it, go check with your state! Oh, by the way, Art Williams is one of the greatest leaders in American History. I reccomend that you go pick up one of his books or even attend one of his seminars. You may learn something. I can foward you information about his seminars, and training if you wish. As far as Primerica offering P&C, We do a great job! We offer our P&C through Travelers. We are doing things that no other company would consider. You should have a quote done on you through your local PFS office, We may save you some money there, or offer greater value for your money. Sincerely, Alan L. Sheffield
Jim, Your comments are unfounded, about A.L. Williams. Travelers Group (Formerly Primerica Corporation) bought A.L. Williams back in 1990.
If ignorance is bliss, you must be a very happy camper. A.L. Williams and his slash and burn techniques, have ripped a ton of people’s life savings. As a salesperson for just one of the 5,500 insurance companies in America you don’t have the first clue about what you are talking about other than being a trained robot who wantonly sings the same song about how good A.L.Williams is…. What you don’t know and can’t tell anyone is the crucial information that consumer need to make an INTELLIGENT not emotional choice when conducting Risk Management activities . If you want to learn about the business you are in go to your public library and get a copy of THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY – INSURANCE by Ron If you want to learn how to intelligently purchase insurance go to http:www.ThePlan.com then click on THE QUALITY INFORMATION INSTITUTE. As far as property owners insurance is concerned, how many instruction books on how to collect money in the form of a legitimate claim does A.L. Williams and Travelers deliver with those thousands of contracts. NOT ONE. The facts are that your claims adjusters are TRAINED to treat consumers who suffer a loss as if they are criminals. SHAME on TRAVELERS. When Christ said "Forgive them father, for they do not know what they do" he must have been talking about insurance salespeople who are brainwashed. Oh, by the way, Art Williams is one of the greatest leaders in American History. I reccomend that you go pick up one of his books or even attend one of his seminars. You may learn something. I can foward you information about his seminars, and training if you wish.
Training is correct. Do you know the difference between training and education? We train animals and servants to do our bidding. We educate people to make intelligent decisions. As far as Primerica offering P&C, We do a great job! We offer our P&C through Travelers. We are doing things that no other company would consider. You should have a quote done on you through your local PFS office, We may save you some money there, or offer greater value for your money.
As a documented expert in Crisis management and financial recovery from insurance companies, I would NOT do business with Travelers if they were giving their insurance away for FREE. I welcome any questions and comments on the above matter or any legitimate Risk Management activities Ron Alford – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sincerely, Alan L. Sheffield
Stick to the facts please. A.L.S. Alan L. Sheffield
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read your article about Primeamerica. If I am not mistaken, they group was previously owned by AL Williams. AL Williams is in fact bad news and he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid scheme. Jim Barbieri Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing, I have to take exception to a couple of your comments. It is news to me that Primerica is prevented from doing business in several states. Could you be more specific. If you’re right, it’s good amunition. If you’re wrong, you shouldn’t be saying it on the open net. Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product. Primerica is certainly legal and they do have products. Admittedly, their term insurance is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense Trust fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has the highest front load allowed by law (8.5%). The fact that they are being sued in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others. I am not, nor have I ever been (nor will I) a Primerica agent. However, as I understand it, here’s a little information about them. A L WMS began in the ’70s, pushing the undenyable position that buy term and investing the difference provided more insurance coverage and greater investment performance than did traditional Whole Life (WL), still does, for that matter. They were quite successful and became the largest seller of term insurance in the world. They were, quite literally, a driving force in changing the industry. Because they tended to specialize in replacing already extant WL, usually calling it a ripoff and questioning the morals of the agent who originally sold it, they made a lot of enemies. Their tactics may have been legal, but I question the morality of that approach. Their Network Marketing approach works. Much as we deplore such organizations as AMWAY, et. al. many of them are mutli billion dollar enterprizes. Perhaps the individual agent most often fails to make any money, to speak of, as a marketing strategy Network Marketing has become the strategy of the 90s and very many Fortune 500 companies are lineing up to get into it. At one time A L WMS had over 200,000 agents, 35,000 of which also had securities licenses. (There-in lies a problem that I will address later). In 1991, when Primerica bought out the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left them in droves. I understand they lost 70% of their business in one year. They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach their former level. Back to the problem I mentioned above. Only 35K out of 200K had securities licenses. That’s what, 17 and a half percent? Now, with 200 thousand people (most part time and ill trained) out preaching the benefits of buy term, invest the difference (BTID) and only 35,000 prepared to sell the investment, guess what happens. Right!! A lot more term got sold than did mutual funds. My data is over a year old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions concerned mutual funds. Given that Primerica specializes in replacing WL, then we see that the following happens. 1. The client already posesses a WL policy that is permanent insurance with a cash value (arguably low, but present) 2. 89% replace that permanent, cash value with term only. 3. 15, 20, or 25 years later (depending upon the length of the term contract) the client has no insurance (can’t afford to renew, even if he/she IS insurable) and NO cash value. 4. Had the client kept the WL contract (as bad as the Primerica rep will assert that it is) he/she would STILL have insurance, and WOULD HAVE a cash value, however little. I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA. Admittedly, the few who actually set up an investment, and stayed with it, are better off than with traditional WL. Few did, and the majority got sold CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very high front load. Additional thoughts; With over 80% of it’s agents insurance licensed only, yet out preaching the benefits of BTID, I question the legality of the system. If what that agent says in any way can be construed as a offer to sell a security, and that agent has no security license, heavy fines and even jail terms are possible. It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry, new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS, actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people. I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance, as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the form of loans with little or no net interest. So, having changed the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results of that change. Hope this of of some use to you…. Cheers, Skibum
Thanks for a well thought out article, even though I do not agree with all that you have said. (I for one, find variable UL horrible.) I am not a big fan of UL period. Even though I feel that many of its elements are a little more honest than others. "When a guy with no knowledge whatsoever can make money in the stock market, it’s time for me to get out". I’ve heard all my life that the above statement was attributed to the late President Kennedy’s father, Joe. Whether it is true or not is not relevent here. What is true, is that vast numbers of people are now investing directly or indirectly in the stock market. Perhaps there is enough $ in the pipeline to drive the stock market to 10,000. But in time it will slow up. Once the this top is reached, will the "smart money" still be in the market? Hell no! The smart money will be making money on shorts! Whose customers are going to get soaked? Not mine! Think it can’t happen? Read history! Think it can’t happen again? Read more history! This is a dangerous time. There is so much optimism that even Joe Lunchbucket thinks he can make money in the markets, by relying on fund managers. Fund managers (good ones too) were around in October of 1928. Did they get their investors out? NO! Term insurance salesmen were hating life in the 1930s during the deflation. Even the old "weekly premium" guys looked like heros compared to the BTID crowd. Anyone with a "lousy" whole life policy was holding gold! I have no doubt that we will see another collapse, and I do not want my client’s life insurance chestnuts in the fire when it comes. What the heck happened to good old fashioned caution and laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk? BTID is a concept that has been around for longer than either of us has been on the planet. The problem with it is that customers more often than not BTSD (buy term and spend the difference). Traditional "whole life" can be and still is a good purchase in most of the clients I see (sooner or later). The same can be said for interest sensitive whole life. I see people being sold the variable product who have NO savings for short term financial needs. I would rather hand them the toll free number for Vangard and advise them to look into Vangard’s index funds and be their own investment advisor. I can say from experience that the old participating WL saved my agency when Bush had us involved in desert storm and Norfolk was like a ghost town. (The funds I own were not doing so hot at the time.) The paid up additional insurance that the dividends had purchased kept my own program from failing. I cannot devote enough time here to do this subject justice but will say that no one , currently makes it economically rewarding enough for bright people to see a career in our field. I contend that until the companies can find a way for bright, energetic,and honest people to make as much or more money than the CEO of a company, our business is going to be headed down hill. I find little to like about MLM because I have never seen a MLM plan that was not conceived on the idea that the "real" money is made off the sales of "downline" people and not off personal production which I think is where it has to be. I don’t think we disagree on this one. It sounds cynical, but I think too many of the companies are run by lawyers and bean counters who have never sold a policy to anyone (many would consider it beneath them and hold their sales force in contempt) and have no concept what goes on in the "field". I don’t mean to pound on you. Based upon your response, you are the only other responder (that I have seen) to this forum who actually showed some real knowledge of our business and some experience. We both have different life experiences that are reflected in our view of the industry. Best wishes and I hope that you will be commenting often. Thanks for a refreshing article that was not an advertisement for financial planning. Rob (in Norfolk, VA)
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario: Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check. Three weeks later, Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area. Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates. They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them. I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop What a joke! The average career of a Primerica "insurance expert" is about 30 days! It takes about that long for them to be exposed to the real world – which is usually just after they have alienated every friend and family member they have trying to get them to buy into the stupid pyramid scheme (make lots of money off someone else even more stupid than you are). So I guess that Prudential, Merill Lynch, Century 21, and any other Financial Service, Insurance, or Real Estate office is a pyramid scheme as well? Apparently you have no idea how the "real world" works. Primerica runs its offices the same way as anyone else, with one exception, they do not advertise in the newspaper for job openings. They hire based on personal recommendations. BTW, if someone is not interested then they are not interested, the office I was contacted by does not try to pressure people. For your information a pyramid is when you give money to someone and do not get anything in return. It is only a pyramid when no product, service, or information is given in return for the money. Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans! As opposed to the great product known as "cash-value"? Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks. You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it. Rob Multi-level marketing, that’s a good one. Compare a full line financial services company to one that sells stuff from a catalog! And remember the only people that get rich in MLM are the ones that in at the beginning. Only a small % of people in MLM actually earn enough to support themselves, if they make any money at all it is usually only extra income. I assume that you have "proof" of you allegations? Were you hired by Primerica at one time? Are you in the insurance industry? Or are you just going by some rumor that you overheard? —
What the heck did I stir up? I’ve been in this business for 20 years. I remember when Art Williams started the thing. I remember the lousy products that were sold by his followers and the projections of 18% annuities that were given their suckers. I remember everything about how his organization convinced successful accountants and lawyers that a 100+ year old industry was going to be revolutionized by a former highschool football coach, so they plunged in and gave up practices to rake in the big bucks because they couldn’t quite seem to get it done part time. They all fell for the line that the business was simple and that stupid insurance agents had been ripping people off for years and years. A two week licensing course doesn’t even scratch the surface. 99% of the Primerica crowd have never even read a life insurance policy from front to back and have no idea what they are really doing in the business. They all are well intentioned, they do not intend to cause harm and I do not wish to imply such. They do not know anything about insurance beyond the "official company" line. I could go on and on but I am not attacking you! I dare say that you have been convinced that "cash value" insurance is BAD. I can assure you that I know more than just a little about what is good and not so good. I own cash value insurance as well as quite a bit of term! I will say that if it were not worth the premium, I would have replaced it years ago. If you think that this topic is simple, you have been HAD. Best wishes and kindest regards. Rob
This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario: Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check. Three weeks later,
Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area. Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates. They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them. I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop
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