Question:

Intermediate Accounting problem from text book Is Imputed interest on funds used during construction of a new building (stock financing) charged to the asset building?

Response:

Intermediate Accounting problem from text book Is Imputed interest on funds used during construction of a new building (stock financing) charged to the asset building?

Construction interest is capitalized into the cost of the building. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

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Question:

If you are prone to cramming (as many ADD’s are) do NOT sleep between cramming and test taking.  It will all be lost.  Sleep then cram then test then celebrate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, I was wondering if anyone has experience taking medication with standardized test taking, ie(LSAT,GRE,) and any other standardized tests?  Did you find that the medication really helped your attention span?  And did it help your level of anxiety also? Finally, what kind of medication did you take: Ritalin? Dexadrine? Thanks Your friend, MOETHEJOE Before you buy.

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My son reports that taking the ERBs on his ADDerall is much easier than when he was unmedicated in 4th grade.  This year he took them untimed in a distraction free place. But I took my SATs and GREs light-years ago, before I was diagnosed, and did very well.  Test taking is a skill which can be learned.  I’d say going to one of the courses (Kaplan, etc) is more useful than playing with your meds. or self-medicating. Kate Coe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, I was wondering if anyone has experience taking medication with standardized test taking, ie(LSAT,GRE,) and any other standardized tests?  Did you find that the medication really helped your attention span?  And did it help your level of anxiety also? Finally, what kind of medication did you take: Ritalin? Dexadrine? Thanks Your friend, MOETHEJOE Before you buy.

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Hello again, I was wondering if anyone has experience taking medication with standardized test taking, ie(LSAT,GRE,) and any other standardized tests?  Did you find that the medication really helped your attention span?  And did it help your level of anxiety also? Finally, what kind of medication did you take: Ritalin? Dexadrine? Thanks Your friend, MOETHEJOE Before you buy.

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If you are prone to cramming (as many ADD’s are) do NOT sleep between cramming and test taking.  It will all be lost.  Sleep then cram then test then celebrate.

That’s an interesting take, Don…  Considering my habits, I am always wondering when and how lack of sleep actually effects my performance. However, I have always found that a short nap between main cram session and testing refreshes me quite a bit (well, that is accounting for a little bit of  cram time between the power nap and testing).  Otherwise, well – I don’t know:  I guess that either way – thanks to my study habits – either panic or total indifference sets in  :) But seriously, Don, do you find this is the case from your own experience? I’m interested…Got two VERY major exams on Tuesday, which have the potential to make me or break me, and thus determining whether I’m going to have to cram in some extra hours during the summer in order to graduate on time.  Not to mention damage my GPA.  Oh well, enough anxiety building… I’m just interested in how you came about your conclusion, as well as whether anyone else has suggestions of the same sort?

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But I took my SATs and GREs light-years ago, before I was diagnosed, and did very well.  Test taking is a skill which can be learned.  I’d say going to one of the courses (Kaplan, etc) is more useful than playing with your meds. or self-medicating. Kate Coe

I totally agree, Kate.  While it’s pretty given that effective meds will help in studying, I have never experienced any improvement in testing while taking meds.  I would think that particularly during standardized testing they wouldn’t be noticably affected.  I, too, did great on my SAT and ACT, which were taken pre-diagnosis/meds.  I think that under such circumstances I subconciously flip on the hyperfocus-switch. But then again, I can see how some ADDers may have difficulties test-taking for such long periods of time as standardized testing often requires.  Or else they may be distracted by others in the room, etc..  Just depends on experience, I guess. megan

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Yes it is consistent with my experience (and I did a lot of cramming when I was carrying betw. 25 and 30 semester credits three semesters a year for four years) and it is backed by research.  Things in short term memory tend to be lost during sleep.  Get it into long term memory or stay awake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are prone to cramming (as many ADD’s are) do NOT sleep between cramming and test taking.  It will all be lost.  Sleep then cram then test then celebrate. That’s an interesting take, Don…  Considering my habits, I am always wondering when and how lack of sleep actually effects my performance. However, I have always found that a short nap between main cram session and testing refreshes me quite a bit (well, that is accounting for a little bit of  cram time between the power nap and testing).  Otherwise, well – I don’t know:  I guess that either way – thanks to my study habits – either panic or total indifference sets in  :) But seriously, Don, do you find this is the case from your own experience? I’m interested…Got two VERY major exams on Tuesday, which have the potential to make me or break me, and thus determining whether I’m going to have to cram in some extra hours during the summer in order to graduate on time.  Not to mention damage my GPA.  Oh well, enough anxiety building… I’m just interested in how you came about your conclusion, as well as whether anyone else has suggestions of the same sort?

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eos and Kate said: But I took my SATs and GREs light-years ago, before I was diagnosed, and did very well.  Test taking is a skill which can be learned.  I’d say going to one of the courses (Kaplan, etc) is more useful than playing with your meds. or self-medicating. Kate Coe

I totally agree, Kate. " I also think that this kind of test-taking skill holds an element of talent. I have always  over-achieved on them. For instance, I failed plane geometry, but got the highest score in my senior class on the geometry sub-section of the state achievement test for seniors. I also scored very high in physics. Amazing, since I didn’t *take* physics…

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If you are prone to cramming (as many ADD’s are) do NOT sleep between cramming and test taking.  It will all be lost.  Sleep then cram then test then celebrate. I agree but did it differently.  I would study all week before the test, then do very little the night before.   Although I never tried your method of sleeping then getting up and studying before the test. Leo

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Hi MotherJoe, I took the Millers and GRE while on Ritalin. MAT 77 or the top 95%. GRE Verbal was very good. 730V. The rest went to hell. But a word of warning, they don’t help you if you are prone to panic attacks. –TN

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, I was wondering if anyone has experience taking medication with standardized test taking, ie(LSAT,GRE,) and any other standardized tests?  Did you find that the medication really helped your attention span?  And did it help your level of anxiety also? Finally, what kind of medication did you take: Ritalin? Dexadrine? Thanks Your friend, MOETHEJOE Before you buy.

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kuanyin said: "I took the Millers and GRE while on Ritalin. MAT 77 or the top 95%." Go check your scores…. Being in the top 95% means that you’re in the lowest 5%. I’m sure that’s not what you meant.  :)

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Question:

Well, I’m just trying to learn to shut up, because it seems like the less I say, the more gets done.  I could be wrong, and really as much as

So far, that strategy is working (well, the last few exchanges have had a strong element of impasse to them). But the time will (hopefully) come when, at the very least, your assent to the negotiated terms will be required. I’d like to think that I’ve got a chance at this and dream about that million dollars, but I’ve yet to see any evidence that Randi is making a legitimate offer, and I seriously doubt that there’ll ever be a real test of his Challenge by me or anyone else. It’s a rigged game.  He had a chance months ago to schedule a test and work out a "protocol". And

Because so much is at stake, I’m willing, pragmatically, to give him the benefit of the doubt on his "traversal," especially now that he’s returned to the bargaining table. who ever heard of a unilateral offer like this one where the applicant has to hire professional judges? WHat should that tell you? We’re like

That’s not exactly true.  It wasn’t Randi’s idea to hire independent judges.  Of course, alternatively he still has to demonstrate that he can come up with free (to you at least) third party personnel that you and he both can trust. bartenders with this man, we’re enabling him to go on with his addiction to denunciation by providing him with fodder. He’s separated himself from the rest of us. I am suddenly struck with the notion that what he needs is a lot of compassion. He may be suffering terribly. I have to work up the strength to love this man . . .unconditionally. I should not expect anything more from him . . .

I’m sure a big salty tear would be rolling down Randi’s cheek right now were he reading this Syd            http://www.escape.ca/~sgb                      Dealing with Depression Naturally                               and other books by Syd Baumel.                                      …and cool record reviews! Okay, let’s look at this realistically. We need 90 days out from today to schedule an event of the type we’re talking about, so even if Randi does cave in and give us a schedule, a reasonable trial of our claim isn’t going to happen for another three months, and that puts us into November.       But until we get a time and a place, this is just all hot air we’re blowing at each other. And secondly, if anyone is going to take his offer seriously, they have to see it in writing with his signature on it.       The Psychic Challenge is not and never has been a legitimate offer from all that I can see of it. It’s an unusual tpe of contract and most attorneys don’t ever see them. Only when he can provide a sginature is it ever going to get any serious attention.  Meanwhile, we can just take potshots at each other. What suprises me is that no one has debunked the debunker. Have we yet to find one legitimate trial of anyone? Yes, I know what Randi says, but that’s all we have, is what Randi says.        The hot button on this case is named Robert Park from Randi.      Try it and see what I mean. Go after the APS for their involvement in this and Randi will be all asses and elbows again. Take the test to them and see what happens. jb My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think?

You’re wrong.  Plenty of people get tested. I want to go on record with this response.  The numbered sections are from Benneth, my comments follow each one. 1. The applicant chooses the source from which the potentized  solutions are created. Source?  Does this mean the tap from which the water is drawn?  Clarify. It sounds like you are saying that you decide what remedy to use right? That’s essential.

Wrong.  It is simply a request for clarification.  Nothing more. 2. The placeboes [sic] are made of the same diluting substance used  to prepare the potencies so that all samples are chemically identical and diluted beyond Avogadro of the mother tincture. "Diluting substance"?  Does this mean water?  SAY what it is. Obviously, it is water and alcohol.

Kim, there’s a million at stake here.  Benneth has shown himself to be a master of doublespeak and obfuscation.  Have you heard of Riley G.’s intention to sue Randi over some nitpicking detail?  Randi’s request is entirely reasonable. Again, you haven’t seen enough Benneth types do their thing yet. 3. Hahnemann Labs of Albany, California (1 888 4 ARNICA) prepares  the 50 samples to be tested, 25 placebos and 25 homeopathically potentized, and their containers are labeled accordingly. Not admissable.  That lab has a very heavy interest in seeing proof of homeopathy.  I would insist that the materials be independently prepared, that portions of both the "potentized" and "non-potentized" material then be submitted to Benneth for his approval, and the test carried out only after his approval is obtained. Okay, big, big problem here. Here JREF has an opportunity to cheat, JB just has to trust them. Unacceptable. Who’s to say that once the potentized material is agreed upon, plain water is sent to JB to perform the actual challenge.  He would have no guarantee of getting a real remedy.

Wrong.  Randi is saying that simply having a lab with a huge stake in the outcome prepare the sample is madness.  It is madness.  And note that Benneth gets to approve the samples beforehand. Also, it is not so easy to make quality remedies. There is no way to do this without remedies manufactured by a good manufacturer. Personally, I would only trust Hahnemann Labs. Specialized equipment is required, especially if you’re talking about high potencies.

That hasn’t been claimed anywhere else that I’m aware of.  That’s not what Hahnemann’s book says.  This isn’t a deal killer.  I don’t believe that the samples will be hard to come by in a manner satisfactory to both parties. Why can’t remedies just be purchased by an independent person under a pseudonym that is unknown to the applicant? That way you would just get the same excellent product that they sell to everyone.

Too many people.  Too easy to cheat.  Again, a million is at stake.  And, don’t forget, cheating is a fair way to win it.  Yes, that’s right.  Randi thinks he can outwit cheaters.  But if he can’t, he still loses.  Fair and square.  Not everybody thinks like you guys. 3 — continued: Two copies are made of each  sample, potentized and non, creating a total of 50 sample sets of three identical  items each, making for a total of 150 items.  After coding is completed, this makes one set of fifty samples for analysis by the claimant, one set of fifty identical samples kept by the referee in the event of a dispute and one set of fifty identical samples for JREF analysis. Overdone, but okay.  But no provision is made here about the "referee." Who or what would that be? The "referee" is a big problem. There’s no way to get someone that will be trusted by both parties.

Wrong.  A major accounting firm would be acceptable.  Like the guys who do the Oscar vote tallying. 5. The coding of the samples is overseen by an independent accounting firm mutually agreed upon by the applicant and JREF. No.  I have no reason to trust an "accounting firm."  We can decide upon a better authority.  Unless, that is, Benneth is prepared to pay a firm like Price, Waterhouse.  In any case, only one person would be involved. Again, there is no way to find an independent person to code the samples that will be mutually agreeable.

Wrong.  Randi clearly states that this can be overcome.  But trusting Hahnemann & Fleiss, Chartered Accountants is a silly idea.  That’s what Randi is saying. Again, think "cheating". 7. Coding is done by several teams of two people each to insure that there are no mistakes or cheating. Again, no.   Videotaping can insure against errors. Huh? He just said no videotaping.

Where? 10. The numerical and alphabetical indexes shall be kept in separate locations mutually agreed on by the applicant and JREF. No.  The single coding will be retained by one trusted person.  There are simple ways to ensure the security.  Making the coding into a complex procedure is not the best way. Agreed, but who can do it?

A major chartered accounting or law firm.   not an acceptable level for the million-dollar prize, but okay for the preliminary test, which is what we’re discussing here. What percent does he want for a formal test? Do we have any idea?

Let Benneth suggest what he can achieve.  It would have to be way less than 1/1000 though.  Prolly 1/100,000 would do. Benneth is fond of redefining the JREF test in his own terms.  He’s welcome to his fantasies, but they do not relate to reality, which is where we’re located.  The procedure above sounds to me to be expensive, but Benneth must be aware of this, and must be prepared to finance the operation.

Exactly. … read more »

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I’m starting off the "digression" thread with a side thread initiated by Kim Birney that doesn’t entirely deserve to be excluded from the main thread, except that it wasn’t part of the direct negotiation thread and it quickly became mostly "digressive" and… It’s getting late.  I hope Kim and Happy Dog, not to mention JB himself, will now post to the main negotiation thread whenever they see fit. Syd Hi John, Syd, HD, My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think? This is my assessment of the Benneth protocol suggestions, which are contained in http://www.marius.net/protocol.html I want to go on record with this response.  The numbered sections are from Benneth, my comments follow each one. 1. The applicant chooses the source from which the potentized  solutions are created. Source?  Does this mean the tap from which the water is drawn?  Clarify.

It sounds like you are saying that you decide what remedy to use right? That’s essential. 2. The placeboes [sic] are made of the same diluting substance used  to prepare the potencies so that all samples are chemically identical and diluted beyond Avogadro of the mother tincture. "Diluting substance"?  Does this mean water?  SAY what it is.

Obviously, it is water and alcohol. 3. Hahnemann Labs of Albany, California (1 888 4 ARNICA) prepares  the 50 samples to be tested, 25 placebos and 25 homeopathically potentized, and their containers are labeled accordingly. Not admissable.  That lab has a very heavy interest in seeing proof of homeopathy.  I would insist that the materials be independently prepared, that portions of both the "potentized" and "non-potentized" material then be submitted to Benneth for his approval, and the test carried out only after his approval is obtained.

Okay, big, big problem here. Here JREF has an opportunity to cheat, JB just has to trust them. Unacceptable. Who’s to say that once the potentized material is agreed upon, plain water is sent to JB to perform the actual challenge.  He would have no guarantee of getting a real remedy. Also, it is not so easy to make quality remedies. There is no way to do this without remedies manufactured by a good manufacturer. Personally, I would only trust Hahnemann Labs. Specialized equipment is required, especially if you’re talking about high potencies. Why can’t remedies just be purchased by an independent person under a pseudonym that is unknown to the applicant? That way you would just get the same excellent product that they sell to everyone. 3 — continued: Two copies are made of each  sample, potentized and non, creating a total of 50 sample sets of three identical  items each, making for a total of 150 items.  After coding is completed, this makes one set of fifty samples for analysis by the claimant, one set of fifty identical samples kept by the referee in the event of a dispute and one set of fifty identical samples for JREF analysis. Overdone, but okay.  But no provision is made here about the "referee." Who or what would that be?

The "referee" is a big problem. There’s no way to get someone that will be trusted by both parties. 4. JREF observes the potentization procedure and preparation of the placeboes at a time of mutual convenience to JREF and the applicant. The procedure is videotaped. Not necessary.  Besides, it provides a loophole for arguing that in some way, JREF interfered with the procedure.  Not admissable.

I agree with Randi on this point. 5. The coding of the samples is overseen by an independent accounting firm mutually agreed upon by the applicant and JREF. No.  I have no reason to trust an "accounting firm."  We can decide upon a better authority.  Unless, that is, Benneth is prepared to pay a firm like Price, Waterhouse.  In any case, only one person would be involved.

Again, there is no way to find an independent person to code the samples that will be mutually agreeable. 6. The coding will be done by multiple teams so as the test is administered by a panel [sic] lay people who have been randomly chosen by the accountants. This is the best insurance that the test will be impartially and fairly administered. Nonsense.  One person, and no more.  The possibilities for breach of security are far too great with any more than one person.

Agreed. 7. Coding is done by several teams of two people each to insure that there are no mistakes or cheating. Again, no.   Videotaping can insure against errors.

Huh? He just said no videotaping. 8. The first team of two people removes any identification of the samples and randomly codes and records the fifty sample sets using a  numerical index, labeling the samples with numbers that correspond to the true identity of the samples.. There can be nothing to be "removed."  That could leave traces.  Containers can be retained in labeled envelopes.  The replacement identifications can be labels.

I don’t get why this re-coding is necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. The second team randomly assigns the numerically coded samples with alphabetical coding, records the numerical identity of the samples, removes the numerical labels and labels the samples alphabetically.  In this way no one person will be able to know the true identity of a  sample without conferring with a member from another indexing team. No "second team."  Too many possibilities for error.  If the previous process is carried out properly, it is secure. 10. The numerical and alphabetical indexes shall be kept in separate locations mutually agreed on by the applicant and JREF. No.  The single coding will be retained by one trusted person.  There are simple ways to ensure the security.  Making the coding into a complex procedure is not the best way.

Agreed, but who can do it? 11. After one lunar cycle, from full moon to full moon, the applicant will produce to the accountants the results as to which are the potentized and which are not. Incredible.  Sounds like a child’s fairy story.  But acceptable.  If it makes them feel better…. 12. The results will be assessed by the same accountants who managed the coding of the samples. No.  Simply opening up the coding will be sufficient.  No "assessment" is needed.  The results are evident.

Right. 13. The Challenge shall be considered to have been won if the applicant has produced 70% correct results or better. For the preliminary test, yes.  Odds are about one in one thousand

No, that’s wrong.   not an acceptable level for the million-dollar prize, but okay for the preliminary test, which is what we’re discussing here.

What percent does he want for a formal test? Do we have any idea? Benneth is fond of redefining the JREF test in his own terms.  He’s welcome to his fantasies, but they do not relate to reality, which is where we’re located.  The procedure above sounds to me to be expensive, but Benneth must be aware of this, and must be prepared to finance the operation.                                         James Randi

Certainly has been what he is noted for doing. It’s what Art Bell said he’s done with people repeatedly. He’ll argue and argue over the conditions. He’s never signed his own Challenge, which was an idea he ripped off from Houdini of whom Randi wrote a a slavish biography of  . . . and showed off his collection of Houdini "Challenge" posters. Except in the Houdini Challenge, Houdini is the guy taking the Challenge. Randi’s obviously turned it around. He wants me to be Houdini!  It’s a unilateral contract and now he’s saying that the only way to get a fair judgement is to pay somebody like Price Waterhouse for it? Yeah, right. And how much do they kick back to him? Here, buy my book. Join my Skeptics club, that’ll be fifty bucks. Notice how he says what it is I’m supposed to do, and what is I will do, like he’s Jeanne Dixon or Kreskin or somebody. Then he tries ordering me around: "BENNETH, HERE IS HOW YOU MUST ADDRESS YOUR E-MAIL TO ME!" "BENNETH, STOP SENDING ME CRAP" "BENNETH, GET ON WITH IT! BENNETH WON’T DO THISS, HE WON’T DO THAT" It’s like I’m this bad boy BENNETH, YOU IRRITATE ME!      And he’s always saying what it is I am: "BENNETH, YOU’RE A FOOL! BENNETH, YOU’RE A WACKO! YOU DUMMY!"  etc. etc. etc.      Wow! This guy is a riot! I think he kind of likes me. I’ll have to send you the "psychic reading" I did for him a while back. It really pissed him off, I think!      Hey, thanks for the asessment. I appreciate your criticism, especially when its of me, I need all I can get if I’m going to get better. jb Hi John, Syd, HD, My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think?

Kim, everybody, Randi clearly got off to an abusive, ill-tempered start in his response to B’s protocol.  But I’ve been very impressed by how well Alain has stepped in to talk turkey — and how Randi has responded in kind. (I have *not* been impressed by how Randi has left JB out of all of his correspondence.) I think that if the will is there on John’s part, this may prove … read more »

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Question:

Hey guys, Before rehab will approve college for me, I need to get in three informational interviews. I need to interview people who are in the type of jobs that the degree would be useful for. What I’m looking at, is a 2 year degree in Business Information Systems. It’s heavy on accounting, computer programming languages, and technical writing. I need to find out find out what the minimum qualifications are, what skills and abilities are necessary, what are the typical duties, how people get hired into the company, that kind of thing. I have two interviews lined up for tomorrow, and the counselor said I could do some of the interviews online, so if anyone wants to let me "interview" them, drop me an email. I’ll need a name and job title, so if anyone is reluctant to pass that on via email, keep that in mind. Thanks,

Response:

Before rehab will approve college for me, I need to get in three informational interviews. I need to interview people who are in the type of jobs that the degree would be useful for.

I can’t help you in this field but just wanted to say it sounds like a very good idea to talk to people in the fields you are interested in.  Good luck with your interviews.  Keep us posted. Sarah L "The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they

Question:

Harry, Thanks for the good information.  It sounds like I can make it work ok even with the limitations it has. Kermit

Response:

Kermit, We can’t solve QuickBooks’ inventory shortcomings for cattle feeders, but if you want much-improved information and reports on quantities and Classes (enterprises) in QuickBooks you might want to have a look at our company’s farm accounting add-on, called ManagePLUS for QuickBooks. Mark Wilsdorf Flagship Technologies, Inc. http://www.agriculture.com/markets/flagship

Response:

Kermit, The most to be said about inventory in QuickBooks: it ain’t much.  An inventory account is a plain asset account, slightly modified.  A unit count is added to each money transaction.  For inventory status, all the money amounts are added (algebraicly) and all of the unit counts.  That gives count on hand, total value, and average value.  Note that this approach allows nothing but average value.  All units of one item are the same.  When they are sold, they go to the COGS account at average cost.  Of course, when all units of one item are gone, the costing method is not material. It probably can be made to work.  You might need to run each lot of cattle as one item, with mnemonic item names like C9811H10  You might combine several lots, of the same age and size, as one item. Feed is going to add to the cost.  I would put the feed into an expense account. At the end of the month, I would roll the feed cost into the cattle cost.  QuickBooks inventory allows a value adjutsment, and you need an opposing account.  That could be the feed cost account.  You would allocate feed cost to the various lots. If you carry a significant amount of feed cost past year end, it can be complicated.  One approach would be to feed the cattle in advance, on paper (or en computer).  The other would be a feed inventory item.  The quantity would be adjusted in, to zero out the feed cost account.  It would have to be adjusted out, to account for feeding the cattle.  You can’t adjust directly between items.  You have to go out to another account and back. After the cattle are converted (and I don’t mean a religious conversion) and are a year or two into history, the items can’t be deleted, but they can be merged, by renaming all old lots as zzz.  That merges them into one item, which obscures their individual history. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a similar question about live inventory in Quickbooks. If I buy cattle in ten lots, is it easy to just increase an inventory each time that I buy a lot of cattle?  (Rather than have ten individual inventories) Also, I have one business, but two computers I would need the software on – is there a security device that limits the use? Any opinions on software for a farming and cattle operation would be greatly appreciated.  I have been using a DOS program from FMS, but I am looking to upgrade to a program like QB. Thanks, Kermit

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I have a similar question about live inventory in Quickbooks. If I buy cattle in ten lots, is it easy to just increase an inventory each time that I buy a lot of cattle?  (Rather than have ten individual inventories) Also, I have one business, but two computers I would need the software on – is there a security device that limits the use? Any opinions on software for a farming and cattle operation would be greatly appreciated.  I have been using a DOS program from FMS, but I am looking to upgrade to a program like QB. Thanks, Kermit

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Question:

Tom, I’d be interested in knowing what you do for a living now.  I’m programming and providing support for a small office network.  I am curious what realm you may have entered now.  If you want e-mail me off the newsgroup. Cheers, Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. GAAAAH!  Hahahahaha!  Yep, yep, yep.  That one kills me, too.  I can program up one side and down the other, but estimate how long something will take?  Sheesh.  Not a chance. When I *was* working as a professional programmer, my manager gave me some good advice:  Be like Scotty.  Have you ever watched the old Star Trek?  Scottie always over-estimated how long something would take, then doubled that.  At first people might be shocked at your estimates, but pretty soon you’ll get a reputation as a miracle worker.  (You’ll ALWAYS be early, and it’ll give you plenty of time for…) But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? We were pretty lucky.  The product we were working on had a definite list of features it had to be able to support (it was a set of C libraries), so we had a test suite we’d run against it.  It took about a day to run if there were no errors.  As bug reports came in from the field, we’d write test cases and add them to the suite. But I don’t know if that’ll be helpful to you.  Since we didn’t have a user-interface, most of our tests were automatic.  They’d just make calls, analyze what was on the screen, and kick back a "Yes" or a "No". I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? The only checklist we kept was the test suite.  But it was a pretty good checklist!  EVERY tech support call that came in either had to be verified using the test suite, or we had to write a new test case for the test suite.  Great way to stick to the OHIO principle (Only Handle It Once).  Once the call was closed, all future versions were going to test for that, so you could forget it. But for user interface testing, there’s nothing like getting a user in there with you to hammer on it.  Like the old saying goes, "Make it idiot proof, and they’ll come up with a better idiot."  I’ve never been able to test one of my own user interfaces, because I expect it to behave in a particular way.  Users want it to work the way users want it to work.  They’ll be the experts at telling you when something’s busted.  (And now you know why people go through alpha and beta testing in the field!!) Best of luck! Tom

Response:

Tom, I’d be interested in knowing what you do for a living now.  I’m programming and providing support for a small office network.  I am curious what realm you may have entered now.  If you want e-mail me off the newsgroup.

I’m doing UNIX system administration.  As far as a job for an ADHDer, it’s a mixed bag. On the one hand, I’ve got TRUCKLOADS of projects, ALL of which I’m expected to keep working on constantly.  That’s great.  If I start burning out, time to switch!  Stuff gets done, balls get juggled, and everything stays in the air.  (Bad news if you’re the kind of person who can’t task-switch at the drop of a hat.) On the other hand, I have had to become a list ‘n notes person.  I can’t keep this much crap in my head at once.  I forget stuff constantly unless it’s written down. I keep all of my notes (ALL of them) on a Palm Pilot.  That way I always know where the info is.  Even if I’m on my hands and knees inside a false ceiling checking wiring, everything I might normally keep on my desk is right there with me, clipped to my belt.  It makes the job do-able. The funny part is, lots of people I work with do the same thing.  ADD? Mmmm… no, I know at least some of them are at the other end of the spectrum.  Just handy, I think. The one down-side for me, at least, is that I *REALLY* have to watch my mouth.  It’s all fine ‘n dandy to be impulsive when talking to people you can get forgiveness from.  But it’s REALLY tempting to respond to someone who’s whining about their quota by saying, "I’ve got close to two thousand of you to bottle-feed.  Think I care about your quota?"  So far I’ve maintained pretty well. Funny part about that is, just about every other admin I know is the same way.  ADD?  Mmmm… no, I think that’s just par for the course for any admin.  They start turning into the BOFH. Tom

Response:

never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time.

My best advice is — avoid giving estimates.  Of course project managers etc. like to know how much time something takes, and if they don’t have a technical background they perhaps do not understand that it is difficult/impossible, and that things always takes longer than estimated.  Also they often have little idea what really takes time.  (They might think something is finished when you have finished your coding) If you have to do it try to get time for planning and clearly state that it influences the way you work. Try to think what their interest is.  Does other people depend on your part for their work?  Do they need some way to measure progress?  Can they actaully do something, like reallocating resources, if they think you will finish to late? One idea is to estimate the relative time needed on different tasks and phases.  Then both you and the project managers have a rough unbiased idea about how things are going. thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.

Also it is normal that software has bugs,  esp. people without a programming background have big difficulties understanding this. The best advice is just common good programming practice, like modular design, encapsulation, try to make all your functions generic. One particular advice is to try to exercise all your code …. step through every single line of your program with the debugger. Also try all the time try to have testability in mind when you write a unit. Think: "How can I verify that this piece of code is correct?".  "If something goes wrong here, how can I be sure the error is in the unit and not in other parts?"  You can also be a bit defensive and anticipate bugs.  Perhaps you can have debug-versions with a lot of logging so that you can track down bugs fast when they appear. Tamara

Michael

Response:

Thank you again.  You mentioned software NG…any particular ones you’d recommend?  Most of the ones I’ve seen were more technical/language specific. Elayne

<clipped lots of good advice

Response:

Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester?

I try to do that. That is rely on an outside tester. Unfortunatly it is usually my clients in th psy. department… (I am a programmer have a degree in computer science. and English lit..) what I have done lately is try and convince myself that my deadline is a day or two sooner than it really is. Then I try and convice everyone I can (including myself..) to work through it and find bugs. It helps, but not too much… Another problem I have is underestimating….I know I can finish a project in a certain time…but I tend to feel bad about adding my limitations time so I end up giving estimates that I can’t rely handle. Than I feel bad about not making them. Any suggestions there? me, huricane

Response:

I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time.

GAAAAH!  Hahahahaha!  Yep, yep, yep.  That one kills me, too.  I can program up one side and down the other, but estimate how long something will take?  Sheesh.  Not a chance. When I *was* working as a professional programmer, my manager gave me some good advice:  Be like Scotty.  Have you ever watched the old Star Trek?  Scottie always over-estimated how long something would take, then doubled that.  At first people might be shocked at your estimates, but pretty soon you’ll get a reputation as a miracle worker.  (You’ll ALWAYS be early, and it’ll give you plenty of time for…) But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design?

We were pretty lucky.  The product we were working on had a definite list of features it had to be able to support (it was a set of C libraries), so we had a test suite we’d run against it.  It took about a day to run if there were no errors.  As bug reports came in from the field, we’d write test cases and add them to the suite. But I don’t know if that’ll be helpful to you.  Since we didn’t have a user-interface, most of our tests were automatic.  They’d just make calls, analyze what was on the screen, and kick back a "Yes" or a "No". I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything?

The only checklist we kept was the test suite.  But it was a pretty good checklist!  EVERY tech support call that came in either had to be verified using the test suite, or we had to write a new test case for the test suite.  Great way to stick to the OHIO principle (Only Handle It Once).  Once the call was closed, all future versions were going to test for that, so you could forget it. But for user interface testing, there’s nothing like getting a user in there with you to hammer on it.  Like the old saying goes, "Make it idiot proof, and they’ll come up with a better idiot."  I’ve never been able to test one of my own user interfaces, because I expect it to behave in a particular way.  Users want it to work the way users want it to work.  They’ll be the experts at telling you when something’s busted.  (And now you know why people go through alpha and beta testing in the field!!) Best of luck! Tom

Response:

Can’t help you with a check list but it is a great idea.  Try sitting down when you are not under pressure and write down every thing you can think of to check.  Then make a list of things that have been brought back and why and compare to two lists.  As far as estimating time…you are fairly new and this takes time to develop.  Keep a log of tasks and time it takes to take care of it and make a chart….updating periodically to include new tasks and faster times. Fargo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Tamara, I have one other piece of advice for this situation.  When you are so confident that you have tested everything that you can test, spend another day testing it.  That is the only thing I can think of in those situations.  Also remember that if you are under the gun, your mind may be in a different place than if you are relaxed and days ahead of schedule.  Perhaps you focus more under the gun?  Maybe you focus more when relaxed?  I’m trying to get help with scheduling.  That way I won’t be under the gun. Cheers, Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester? Tamara Is it Tamara (cool name) or Elayne (very nice name, but lacking cool factor)? You signed Tamara so I will address you with that name. Tamara, I run a LAN for a small company.  Before that I had two ‘consulting’ jobs where I was employed by a computer company to do jobs for their customers.  Those jobs included building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, teaching programming, and PROGRAMMING. My current job involves runing the LAN, building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, and PROGRAMMING. I can tell you how much trouble I have with the exact things you are describing.  I can program and make beautiful looking screens and[SNIP previous history]

Response:

thanks, I’ll try that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can’t help you with a check list but it is a great idea.  Try sitting down when you are not under pressure and write down every thing you can think of to check.  Then make a list of things that have been brought back and why and compare to two lists.  As far as estimating time…you are fairly new and this takes time to develop.  Keep a log of tasks and time it takes to take care of it and make a chart….updating periodically to include new tasks and faster times. Fargo I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester?

There are many different methodologies (or paradines) for testing and much depends on the situation (development model, language, risk, size, etc.). If you are working under a WBS where you have small modules, you should be able to test the functionality based on requirements/design specifications. (If the error found is not in the requirement or design, it is a requirement/design error not a code error).  Boundary checking is also advisable.  If code is subject to coding standard, follow them as they catch some errors (if you don’t have coding standards, you should!).  Now if you do end to end systems engineering, well that is a whole new set of concerns/issues as it is with O-O (Object oriented design heuristics by Arthur Riel may be a good reference).  black-box testing, top down–you will learn over time, but since you know this is a weak spot (commend you on this), I would advise a software NG, one of several good books on the subject, or a class.  I’ve been in software over 20 years and still learning–it is the nature of the profession. Project planing/scheduling has always been a weekspot in software development as a whole–few really do efficient (or accurate) planning/scheduling.  Most put huge buffers in the process to ensure they meet cost/schedule (estimate it and then double it).  Slim, COCOMO, REVIC, Function Points are models/methods that may help, but to work effectively, they must have good processes that provide good inputs (GIGO) — few software processes meet this requirement.  Historical method might work for you–that is where you use past estimations to determine current estimations.  For example, the last time you had a project similar to this, you were off by 20 percent, so this time add the 20 percent in.  Again, there are good books/courses/NG out there.  Might find help at: http://www.sei.cmu.edu/publications/featured/enhanced.management.capa…. html or just see what http://www.sei.cmu.edu has to offer. Good luck and sorry for being off topic folks ….

Response:

While I was dwelling on the fundamental interconnectedness of all – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

A good book is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell (Microsoft Press). Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

Response:

Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester? Tamara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it Tamara (cool name) or Elayne (very nice name, but lacking cool factor)? You signed Tamara so I will address you with that name. Tamara, I run a LAN for a small company.  Before that I had two ‘consulting’ jobs where I was employed by a computer company to do jobs for their customers.  Those jobs included building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, teaching programming, and PROGRAMMING. My current job involves runing the LAN, building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, and PROGRAMMING. I can tell you how much trouble I have with the exact things you are describing.  I can program and make beautiful looking screens and reports, but try to enter in fields and, WHAMMO!!!, error messages.  I test, but some stuff always slips by.  This is a source of great anger for me. One of the things that I try to remember is programming is 20% coding and 80% testing/debugging (for me).  If I can keep track of my time coding, I can estimate how long the debugging will take.  Also, I can never estimate ETA on a project.  I never kept track of a project previously and I can’t relate previous projects to current ones. I try to get help in setting up a project schedule.  One thing that sometimes helps is to break the project into really small parts. Sometimes it is easier to estimate duration of a really small project than a really big project.  Then I just add all of the small projects together. We gotta keep plugging, though.  Congrats on going pro! Cheers, Steve I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Is it Tamara (cool name) or Elayne (very nice name, but lacking cool factor)? You signed Tamara so I will address you with that name. Tamara, I run a LAN for a small company.  Before that I had two ‘consulting’ jobs where I was employed by a computer company to do jobs for their customers.  Those jobs included building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, teaching programming, and PROGRAMMING. My current job involves runing the LAN, building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, and PROGRAMMING. I can tell you how much trouble I have with the exact things you are describing.  I can program and make beautiful looking screens and reports, but try to enter in fields and, WHAMMO!!!, error messages.  I test, but some stuff always slips by.  This is a source of great anger for me. One of the things that I try to remember is programming is 20% coding and 80% testing/debugging (for me).  If I can keep track of my time coding, I can estimate how long the debugging will take.  Also, I can never estimate ETA on a project.  I never kept track of a project previously and I can’t relate previous projects to current ones. I try to get help in setting up a project schedule.  One thing that sometimes helps is to break the project into really small parts.   Sometimes it is easier to estimate duration of a really small project than a really big project.  Then I just add all of the small projects together. We gotta keep plugging, though.  Congrats on going pro! Cheers, Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Question:

We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

Response:

We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

You may make a TERRIBLE mistake. I have known many good programmers in 35 years of heavy computer and construction experience. For 10 years I helped a programming genius spend thousands of hours on a construction program. He accurately allocated costs to company projects, phases, buildings and units in uniquely fast ways. However, his program never had commercial features and reliability. When the boss saw how much the custom program increased accounting fees, and used QuickBooks to "drill down" reports to correct errors, the old program was history. To put things in perspective, QuickBooks is probably now spending more on final tests of its multi-user program than the gross sales of your company. Many programs, including construction programs, are far more powerful than QuickBooks. You can get modifiable source code for complete Access and Fox programs (SBT). This will provide more safety, reliability and far faster and more accurate returns than any custom program. Why risk your business, by effectively going into the programming business, when you know nothing about it? Mike Block, C.P.A. Tax Fighter, QuickBooks Professional Advisor 275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33334;  954-566-7540       biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news!            Demanding voter approval of tax increases!

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I have to agree with Mike (with qualification). There are too many good, customizable accounting applications out there today. You could never justify the cost/benefit of a totally custom solution. Unless you are fairly small and uncomplicated, you probably won’t be happy with Quickbooks – it has some super features and great usability, but it gets terribly slow with a large load of data and it does have some undesirable quirks (for example, in the payroll employee management area). Plus you will have to wait a while to get the networked version – which will be a Version 1 (but based on a good beta test). And if you were thinking that it interfaces with the TurboTax for business as a selling point – NOT on NT. In fact nobody should recommend any product to you without first conducting a requirements analysis to determine your critical needs – both from an accounting perspective and your other overlapping interactions (e.g., HR, sales, payroll and remote site operations… how does it fit in the larger picture). There is a company out of Ft Wayne, IN (SolutionPoint) that has experience in this type of research-recommendation process (NT networks and accounting systems in particular) and has a national presence. Small company, but good rates and an abundance of talent. Web site: www.solutionpoint.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

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You’ve "gotta lot of moxy, son". Having done lots of such software development over the last 20+ years, I’m definitely qualified.  But I wouldn’t touch it.  And you shouldn’t either. Are you SURE you want to do this?  After all, there are tens of excellent packages out there to do what you want to do.  It is a serious mistake to take off developing a system unless you have determined that there (1) is not an existing system that will do what you want to do, and (2) you cannot possibly change your way of doing things to accommodate an existing system somewhere. Not to get on my soapbox, but this kind of development project makes very little sense.  It will be long, drawn-out, bug-ridden, and expensive. After that, you’ve got ongoing maintenance from now until perpetuity.   Do yourself a favor.  Go find a package that does 80% of what you want to do, and buy it (perhaps with the help of a good systems consultant). Change your internal ways of doing things to accommodate it.   David Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system.  We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system.  We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at

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    I have to agree with Mike on this point:  "You are making a terrible mistake!"  I am not familiar, Peachtree is dominant in my area.  What I have done for a few of my clients is integrate MS-Access or Paradox with Peachtree.  Peachtree and QB or both btrieve databases which means they are OBDC databases.  Which means you can Link data from other OBDC databases to these accounting packages.     To give you an example of what I have done, my client wanted a contract system where they would write the contracts to purchase and sell material.  The quantity would be the same for the sales invoice and the purchase order.  So, in Access, they would enter the contract agreements.  As the shipments took place, the vendor would deliver the material to the customer.  This would be tracked in the system as a broker.  They would enter the data one time in Access.  Access would feed the information in Peachtree to the sales, purchase, and freight based on the terms of the contract.  This allowed Access to perform custom reports, such as position reports (the position of the contracts) and custom invoicing.  It also allowed Peachtree to do what it does well, receive cash, pay bills, financial reporting ,payroll, etc.  By having the two linked, there is no reason to double enter the data. — Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://user.centralnet.net/dcovey      Accounting and database specialist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system. We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system. We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at You may make a TERRIBLE mistake. I have known many good programmers in 35 years of heavy computer and construction experience. For 10 years I helped a programming genius spend thousands of hours on a construction program. He accurately allocated costs to company projects, phases, buildings and units in uniquely fast ways. However, his program never had commercial features and reliability. When the boss saw how much the custom program increased accounting fees, and used QuickBooks to "drill down" reports to correct errors, the old program was history. To put things in perspective, QuickBooks is probably now spending more on final tests of its multi-user program than the gross sales of your company. Many programs, including construction programs, are far more powerful than QuickBooks. You can get modifiable source code for complete Access and Fox programs (SBT). This will provide more safety, reliability and far faster and more accurate returns than any custom program. Why risk your business, by effectively going into the programming business, when you know nothing about it? Mike Block, C.P.A. Tax Fighter, QuickBooks Professional Advisor 275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33334;  954-566-7540       biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news!            Demanding voter approval of tax increases!

– Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://user.centralnet.net/dcovey      Accounting and database specialist.

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    I have to agree with Mike on this point:  "You are making a terrible mistake!"  I am not familiar, Peachtree is dominant in my area.  What I have done for a few of my clients is integrate MS-Access or Paradox with Peachtree.  Peachtree and QB or both btrieve databases which means they are OBDC databases.  Which means you can Link data from other OBDC databases to these accounting packages.     To give you an example of what I have done, my client wanted a contract system where they would write the contracts to purchase and sell material.  The quantity would be the same for the sales invoice and the purchase order.  So, in Access, they would enter the contract agreements.  As the shipments took place, the vendor would deliver the material to the customer.  This would be tracked in the system as a broker.  They would enter the data one time in Access.  Access would feed the information in Peachtree to the sales, purchase, and freight based on the terms of the contract.  This allowed Access to perform custom reports, such as position reports (the position of the contracts) and custom invoicing.  It also allowed Peachtree to do what it does well, receive cash, pay bills, financial reporting ,payroll, etc.  By having the two linked, there is no reason to double enter the data. — Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://user.centralnet.net/dcovey      Accounting and database specialist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a construction firm looking to get a new accounting system. We would like a Windows 95 based, with Windows NT Server accounting system. We will set up the computers, we just need someone to write the accounting software for us.  Any interested, qualified parties…E-mail us at You may make a TERRIBLE mistake. I have known many good programmers in 35 years of heavy computer and construction experience. For 10 years I helped a programming genius spend thousands of hours on a construction program. He accurately allocated costs to company projects, phases, buildings and units in uniquely fast ways. However, his program never had commercial features and reliability. When the boss saw how much the custom program increased accounting fees, and used QuickBooks to "drill down" reports to correct errors, the old program was history. To put things in perspective, QuickBooks is probably now spending more on final tests of its multi-user program than the gross sales of your company. Many programs, including construction programs, are far more powerful than QuickBooks. You can get modifiable source code for complete Access and Fox programs (SBT). This will provide more safety, reliabilit

     Accounting and database specialist.

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Question:

I am living in Ontario with my fiance and stepdaughter.  Is anyone familiar with Ontario Child Support/Custody laws?? Or can anyone tell me where I can go to find out for myself?? And did I read right that if my fiance pays child support to his ex wife for his daughter and his ex isn’t working it is also alimony???  Is this a legally correct statement??  Please clarify, and thank you in advance. Erin

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Erin wrote: >And did I read right that if my fiance pays child support to >his ex wife for his daughter and his ex isn’t working it is also >alimony???

Legally, I’m sure, no, that wouldn’t be what the court would call it. But, in reality, if you are paying for 100% of the child’s expenses and 100% of the ex-spouse’s (because they are not working), what else is it, really? Tracey

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Tracey wrote: > Erin wrote: > >And did I read right that if my fiance pays child support to > >his ex wife for his daughter and his ex isn’t working it is also >alimony??? > Legally, I’m sure, no, that wouldn’t be what the court would call > it. But, in reality, if you are paying for 100% of the child’s > expenses and 100% of the ex-spouse’s (because they are not working), > what else is it, really? > Tracey

Tracey is likely right about it legally being alimony…but if the ex doesn’t work and is able to run a home on "child support", I would say that it definitely alimony!!!  But in my opinion alimony is ‘built into" child support these days!! Shawna

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In article <34D49FF0.5…@ibm.net>, S&V Moroz <mo…@ibm.net> writes: >Tracey is likely right about it legally being alimony…but if the ex

doesn’t work and is able to run a home on "child support", I would say that it definitely alimony!!!  But in my opinion alimony is ‘built into" child support these days!!>> Dear Shawna, I agree with you.  We live in a non-alimony state, but the child support allotment is still far higher than it takes to support the children.  The next time she takes us to court, we are considering requesting an accounting for how the child support money is spent.  It should be interesting to see if we can achieve this.  (Of course, she might not take us back to court, because the last time she did the judge told her to go and get a job – put this right in the papers – and she still hasn’t done this.  So she would have a lot of explaining to do if she takes us back to court, I think.) Becky

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Hi Erin – It depends on what is written in the divorce decree.  If there is a specified amount for alimony then it is claimed as such on the tax forms.  If the specified amount is written as child support then it doesn’t matter whether she is working on not.  The tax rules now depend a lot on the date of the court order or decree.  If it is dated May 1, 1997 or after – child support is no longer a deduction for the non custodial parent, but alimony is.  If the order is prior to May 1, 1997 then both child support and alimony are total deductions for the non custodial parent.  The full law is on the federal government web site, under finance. Jane ——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————–       http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

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Question:

Note from Hammell: Following my comments is the latest in a series of very alarming press releases which consumers of dietary supplements and herbs, all over the world should be aware of. Tony Martinez just forwarded this to me. PharmaPrint Inc. is very bad news. They intend to drive natural herbs out of the marketplace to clear the way for themselves to make huge profits by selling patented analogs, as is already happening in Europe. They intend to sell their patented so called "BioPrinting" process to other pharmaceutical firms. Please do not be complacent about this. We must all fight back! Note what is said here (towards end of article below) "PharmaPrint is the only developer and manufacturer of patented pharmaceutical versions of multimolecule herbal medicines. Management expects to introduce a succession of new pharmaceuticals  originating from widely demanded, but scientifically UNTESTED and UNREGULATED herbal products." (my emphasis, these herbs have only been used by millions of people for thousands of years and these greed driven people have the colossal gall to call them "untested"???) The so called "Commission on Dietary Supplement Labels" (created when DSHEA was gutted by Waxman) is currently considering creating a separate regulatory category for herbals and botanicals. (p.3 of the official minutes from the Commission on Dietary Supplement Labels, Meeting #5, September 19-20, 1996, Sheraton Hotel, Reston VA. If this new category is created, it would create a very slippery slope for all other dietary supplements. Given the overt WHO backing of PharmaPrint Inc.,this is clearly a Codex harmonization effort. PharmaPrint announced in an earlier press release (PR Newswire, Dec.4, 1996 "New Technology, Global Initiative to Bring Herbal Medicines into Modern Medical Science Announced by World Health Organization Today) that they have the complete backing of WHO in their efforts to create patentable analog products from the world’s most popular herbs. Is this good for consumers? The FDC Tan Sheets (Dec.2, ‘96) stated that PharmaPrint has entered into a joint venture with University of Miami to patent an analog of saw palmetto berry extract (which according to them, "consumers are currently using on an unregulated basis".) They want to put their patented version through controlled clinical trials. After they spend the money to do this, you can be sure they will seek to protect their investment and will do everything in their power to sweep the natural product off the shelves. The latest PharmaPrint press release follows, and the best way to strike back is to use the attached file or download my Codex Report from Bonn from http://www.lef.org and forward it to more people so we can build the coalition necessary to fight back. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -PharmaPrint names former Regency Health CFO  Jim Wodach chief financial officer    Business Editors    IRVINE, Calif.–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Dec. 18, 1996–PharmaPrint Inc. (NASDAQ:PPRT) Wednesday announced the appointment of well-known  industry financial executive James R. Wodach as senior vice  president and chief financial officer as part of the company’s stated plans to expand management in key areas.      President and Chief Executive Officer Elliot Friedman said:   "Jim adds a new dimension to our management team.  He has tremendous  experience working with high-growth companies, and we intend to use  his experience as we execute our expected licensing of the  PharmaPrinting technology to other pharmaceutical companies.      "Just as important, Jim has a distinguished track record in  financial management, not only in drug discovery but also health  service operations, adding a unique, broad perspective to our  strategic planning and financial systems."      Wodach was formerly director of finance of Paragon Biomedical  Inc., a company that provides contract research services for the  pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries.  Prior to Paragon,    Wodach served in various capacities, including senior vice president  finance and chief financial officer for Regency Health Services  Inc., a New York Stock Exchange company.      Wodach, a certified public accountant, has 12 years of experience  in the health-care industry.      PharmaPrint is the only developer and manufacturer of patented pharmaceutical versions of multimolecule herbal medicines.   Management expects to introduce a succession of new pharmaceuticals  originating from widely demanded, but scientifically untested and  unregulated herbal products.      The company also markets its PharmaPrinting technology to other pharmaceutical companies.  PharmaPrinting was developed over the  course of 20 years at the University of Southern California, which  still owns an interest in the company.      For more information on PharmaPrint Inc. via facsimile at no cost,  simply call 800/PRO-INFO and dial client code 285.      –30–RJ/la*  RPL/la    CONTACT:  PharmaPrint Inc., Irvine              James Burgess, 714/224-2555                 or              Financial Relations Board, Los Angeles              Moira Conlon, 310/442-0599 (investor/analyst contact)              Steven Seiler, 310/442-0599 (media)    KEYWORD:  CALIFORNIA    INDUSTRY KEYWORD:  PHARMACEUTICAL BIOTECHNOLOGY MANAGEMENT CHANGES MEDICINE Copyright 1996 Business Wire. All rights reserved.

John Hammell, Political Coordinator,Life Extension Foundation            Please Snowball My Codex Report From Bonn                 Download from http://www.lef.org       Join Us To DEFEND Health Freedom INTERNATIONALLY!!!

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Hammell) writes: They intend to drive natural herbs out of the marketplace to clear the way for themselves to make huge profits by selling patented analogs, as is already happening in Europe. They intend to sell their patented so called "BioPrinting" process to other pharmaceutical firms. Please do not be complacent about this. We must all fight back!

This information re Codex has been discussed for some time in myAR/ vegetarian list. I saw the national news a while back where this anaolg and patenting process was announced with great glee, like they had discovered a cure for AIDS. As one who is never ceased to be amazed at the stupidity and gullibility of most ppl, I have every reason to believe that this could happen. As usual, the bottom line is $$ not health. Next think ya know, they’ll be telling us we can’t smoke cannabis leaves. ~Velvet O’Rourke~ Sacramento, California

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Question:

Perpetually Indignant Persons Syndrome? Find out if you have it? http://www.webcom.com/joe6pack

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All dismal failures. It is true that IQ’s have gone up (the Flynn effect) but it is not true that there has been shown to be a correlation between poverty and IQ. These issues have been discussed at length and shown to be of little merit. It is safe to say that with regards to IQ testing and evaluation it is better to restrict the data to the last 30 years when psychometrics was more mature. Hate to burst your bubble of hope. But you rely on an eclectic smattering of half truths and wishful thinking not founded on scientific evidence. You might try telling that to the National Academy of Sciences, which issued a press release stating that the science behind the Bell Curve was "fraudulent." By the way, I listed some very specific examples, including many within the last 30 years, and you simply dismissed them with the phrase "All dismal failures," without offering any evidence. I think if you check the literature on the subject, you will find a broad consensus among psychologists that intervention programs for the young do indeed raise IQs in children. If you have any evidence to the contrary, you should present it.

First, I would like to see the National Academy of Sciences press release or tell me where I can find it. Second, what is the science behind The Bell Curve? I haven’t seen a copy in about 18 months and I do not base my science on it, so what is the point? Also, you are right about the consensus that early childhood intervention raises a child’s IQ, just like early intervention in music lessons will increase there ability to play music later in life. The problem is, it has only a minimal effect on IQ that will last into adulthood. The most comprehensive series of articles I have come across have been in the April issue of Child Development. The whole issue addresses intervention, poverty, etc. and as far as I can tell all it shows is that there is no evidence of early intervention success outside of the Carolina Abecedarian Project, where the effects of early intervention were failing fast as the participants approached age 12. It will be interesting to see the results of another longitudinal study in 2 years when they are 16. It looks like most of the gains from a rigorous intervention from the age of a few months on will be mostly lost. But if we paid as much attention to all children as we did for this dismally small sample (statistically speaking) at an early age we would have yes a marginally smarter adult population but at what cost? It is far easier and cost effective to just breed smarter kids rather than try to make stupid kids smart. Especially since only very marginal improvements can be achieved by education. There again is no evidence that the IQ gap is narrowing, only that everyone’s IQ has increased due to unknown causes that we may never see again. You must have slept through the above paragraph. All the numbers above are for REDUCTIONS IN THE GAP between white and black IQs. This is independent of the Flynn Effect. By the way, the Flynn Effect is theorized to be the result of improving health care around the world, and a rise in the world’s absolute standard of living. That’s *another* example of how prosperity increases IQ growth.

I sorry but the evidence on a closing gap between white and black in IQ is just not there. There have been some scholastic gains, no doubt do to the dumbing down of education. But the standard deviation gap is still present and accounted for. Also, you do not seem to understand the difference between achievement tests and IQ tests. Though one can be reflective of the other they are not the same. With this statement, you prove to me that you know very little about the subject of IQ, and everything you know about the subject has come from the Bell Curve debate. (Have you even read this book? So many claim its arguments without even bothering to read it.)

Sorry, but I get most of my information from the journal Intelligence, from the book Will We Be Smart Enough by Earl Hunt, and numerous other journals and books. If you do not understand the difference between IQ and achievement you may want to check out many of the fine journals on educational development, especially those that talk about using IQ tests to determine if children are learning up to their abilities. The accepted criteria for determining if a child has a learning disability is to compare academic achievement against innate IQ through testing. If you cannot understand that this could not be done if they were the same then you have a poor understanding of psychometrics. Achievement tests are often used as a proxy for intelligence when given to large groups of students, but caution must be taken when using it for individuals. Various acheivement tests do indeed measure IQ — that is why MENSA accepts them for membership.

I think if you read any of the many books on this subject you will see how they are different but can be mutually useful. Your understanding of the two is very sophomoric. What is significant is that the 15 point IQ gap between blacks and whites has not been successfully reduced despite many programs that have been designed to reduce it. Any shrinkage or the gap re-emerges as the children grow up. Even Murray and Herrnstein admit to a large role of social factors in affecting IQ. IQ is like height — it runs in the family, but better childhood nutrition affects it too. That is why the Japanese, after adopting a Western diet after World War II, became as tall as Americans in a few short generations.

Many things in the environment impact growth and development. That is not disputed. What is disputed is whether intelligence is accounted for by genes as much as by environment. It is accepted that they are both important. What I contend is that given this, much of the gap between different groups, on average, is due to genetics rather than social disadvantage. Not all but most I contend is genetic. If it wasn’t we would have at least ONE definitive study showing intervention capable of eliminating the gap and having it last into adulthood. To date, no study has come even remotely close to this. But the Minnesota Twin Studies have been widely accepted by even Gould and Gardner of such robust proof of the genetic link between IQ and genes that is can no longer be ignored. I base my science on all of the available evidence. And the most parsimonious explanation so far is genetics for the large IQ gap between different groups averages. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. It is easy to explain. Because of large social disruptions and migrations different states have different ethnic make-ups as well as opportunities. First, we can use the number of black people as a proxy for the average intelligence of a community, or the number of Jews. They are not evenly represented in all communities. Also, even within the same ethnic groups, the more intelligent may move out of a depressed area leaving the lower intelligence members behind. Just because the founding  immigrants may have been homogeneous (if in fact they were) does not mean different ecologies have not played a part in population migrations that have caused disparate intelligences between states or cities. This would be rather expected in a mobile population. Sorry to spoil your racist rationalizations, but the same correlation between poverty and IQ exists within racial groups as well. There is a large body of literature on this subject; avail yourself to it.

Of course there is. Smart Irish are well off and very dumb Irish will find themselves in poverty. Was this the point you were trying to make? Daaah! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t arbitrarily choose one over the other but base it on the wealth of data available. Differences in the IQ’s of people seems much more believable than the hypothesis that when people have a sense of inequality in incomes those on the bottom rungs somehow get sick more often, in spite of actual wealth or prosperity. That is a real reach and should be rejected based on the principle of parsimony. Strawman. Poverty causes higher mortality rates because poor people cannot afford better nutrition, health care, education, and less toxic work and living environments. The reason why inequality matters — as opposed to absolute standard of living — is because the costs of all the above things is relative too. For example, health care has greatly improved over the last 100 years. So have people’s life spans — including the poor. But costs have risen too. Doctors may develop a new surgical technique that can save lives — but it costs $50,000. In a more equal society, more people could afford it, but in an unequal society, the poor are denied it. And that is why inequality matters in spite of absolute standard of living.

This is a direct contradiction to what the original post contended. I do not take issue with the assumption that if you are in poverty you will fair poorly medically. It was the original article that took issue with this assumption. The original research stated that the poor felt like they were inequitably treated and that is why their health was poor. Some kind of hypochondria. I took issue with that statement and now you are agreeing with me!! Man you have a real problem staying focused. Go back and read the original post before arguing my point for me.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …The 1940s, 1950s and 1960s featured the greatest economic boom in U.S. history. Taxes were highly progressive and redistributive; the top rate was between 88 and 91 percent for most of that time. Only in the 80s was progressivity lost, as the top rate came down to 28 percent. And look at the difference between the two eras: We boomed in those periods because the rest of the world was still recovering from WWII, not because of sky-high taxes on the evil rich. Germany and the rest of Europe was in shambles, Japan was still being rebuilt (with the proceeds from those high tax rates) and the rest of Asia was not yet in a position to challenge us in the markets of the world.   Russia and China were too busy killing their own citizens to worry about expanding into world markets, and we were decades ahead of them in technology, anyway.  Of course our economy boomed through the roof – we had no competitors on the planet!!  To point to our sky-high tax rates and indicate that they, not a lack of competition, were to thank for the prosperity of those decades is simply ridiculous.  MH No serious economist believes that international "competition" exists on a global market, and I would challenge you to find one. A nation’s productivity depends almost solely on its domestic factors — period. Paul Krugman led a revolution in a trade theory in the last 5 years by these findings, and it appears he’s on the short list of Nobel prize winners because of it. He writes: "If you hear someone say something along the lines of ‘America needs higher productivity so that it can compete in today’s global economy,’ never mind who he is, or how plausible he sounds. He might as well be wearing a flashing neon sign that reads: ‘I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT.’" Henry Kissinger got the most admired Nobel prize of them all the Nobel Peace prize.  And he had a great hand in converting a peaceful island of stability in Cambodia into killing fields.  He even had a hand in the continuing genocide in East Timor. An economist condemning ignorance is as laughable as a lawyer condemning lies. Actually I agree with the main part of Steve’s thesis but some of his analysis is suspect.  Tax rates up to 91% were paid by no one.  As

 Although Mr. Kangas can speak for his position himself, my take  on what you just wrote is that you missed the forest because  the trees got in your way. It’s true few, if any, paid at 91%.  But the question is why. The tax code contained incentives for the  wealthy to convert their income…and in profitable ways. By the  1980s tax loopholes had become so corrupt that racehorses and art  were better investments than plant and equipment.  Our problem today is that while those loopholes were erased so  were the tax incentives to invest in plant and equipment. Why should  a Monet be more lucrative an investment than a new assembly line  in a Ford plant? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -always the rich could employ accountants and lawyers to pay in fact whatever tax they wished to.  Politicians have always compliantly provided loopholes.  Who does Steve think elects these guys?  David Rockefeller once testified that he had never needed to pay any tax but always made a contribution.  The people caught by high tax rates were those far down the income scale. The real difference in taxes is the tax increase – declared to be no tax – in the the payroll tax.  There has been no greater shift of income from the poor to the wealthy than this incredibly regressive tax.  The fiction remains that it is for the benefit of the poor workers who are most burdened by it. <snip Best,    Terry "Positive – Being wrong at the top of one’s lungs"                                  - The Devil’s Dictionary

– rha

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                        Y’all got this one backassward.                         Social problems breed inequality.                         Very little is done about the                         major social problems other than                         to bring them into some form of                         manageability, which in turn is                         a foundation for bureaucracy.                         DCI

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ignored every scintilla of historical evidence that shows us that massive government-mandated wealth redistribution schemes never achieve their alleged purpose?  But… I could be wrong. You are indeed very wrong. The 1940s, 1950s and 1960s featured the greatest economic boom in U.S. history. Taxes were highly progressive and redistributive; the top rate was between 88 and 91 percent for most of that time. Only in the 80s was progressivity lost, as the top rate came down to 28 percent. And look at the difference between the two eras: We boomed in those periods because the rest of the world was still recovering from WWII, not because of sky-high taxes on the evil rich. Germany and the rest of Europe was in shambles, Japan was still being rebuilt (with the proceeds from those high tax rates) and the rest of Asia was not yet in a position to challenge us in the markets of the world.   Russia and China were too busy killing their own citizens to worry about expanding into world markets, and we were decades ahead of them in technology, anyway.  Of course our economy boomed through the roof – we had no competitors on the planet!!  To point to our sky-high tax rates and indicate that they, not a lack of competition, were to thank for the prosperity of those decades is simply ridiculous.  MH No serious economist believes that international "competition" exists on a global market, and I would challenge you to find one. A nation’s productivity depends almost solely on its domestic factors — period. Tell this to GM and the other American automakers.  They made gas-guzzling behemoths with impunity till the Japanese bit them in the ass.  I drive a Honda and it beats the hell out of any American car I

  Please tell this to people who say the ruination of the American   auto industry was the fault of the union. NOPE, it was bad management   preferring cheap, but bad, engineering.   Those union assembly line workers could only assembly what they   were given. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ever had.  Tell the hundreds of thousands of former American auto workers than foreign competition had no bearing on their jobs becoming nonexistent, and they’ll either laugh or punch you.  Tell IBM that Toshiba and Matshushita aren’t threats to their domestic market, and don’t need to be factored in.  I guess Sony is irrelevant, because no "serious" economist believes that there is any such thing as global competition.  Pray tell, what other explanation might you have for the economic upheaval we’ve been going through for twenty years?  Lack of government spending, perhaps? Paul Krugman led a revolution in a trade theory in the last 5 years by these findings, and it appears he’s on the short list of Nobel prize winners because of it. He writes: "If you hear someone say something along the lines of ‘America needs higher productivity so that it can compete in today’s global economy,’ never mind who he is, or how plausible he sounds. He might as well be wearing a flashing neon sign that reads: ‘I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT.’" You might be interested to know that international trade was never more than 6 percent of the U.S. economy between World War II and 1960. I would challenge you to explain why you think such a small part of the economy would have such a major impact that it would fuel the greatest economic boom in U.S. history. You use terms like "simply ridiculous" to describe opposition to your beliefs, but I can already tell that you haven’t even studied the fundamentals of economics, and I reject your calumny until you can prove that you can post an informed argument. Well, it was American firms who rebuilt Japan and Europe, and it was American firms who armed us to the teeth to protect us from the red menace.  This was all done with American products.  Also, the fact that international trade was only 6% or less of our economy actually supports my view, not yours.  American firms had no viable challenge in our domestic markets, so everything that was bought was bought from American firms.  All of our money was spent on things that were made here at home, which obviously contributed to the booming of American business. We thrived in those periods because we were in an isolation chamber – there were no foreign firms offering products to Americans, so no American dollars went back overseas.  Contrast this with today, where most of the things on the store shelves originated somewhere overseas, at least in part. American firms are having to compete in a global market, with firms who are perhaps more efficient or at the very least get to benefit from paying thier workers a wage 1/10 of what we pay ours.   The poor didn’t get poorer in the sense that their standard of living fell.  To look at a pie chart and see that the rich got a bigger slice of the pie than before neglects the fact that the entire pie got bigger over the timeframe. Absolutely false, and completely uninformed. The following chart shows the falling weekly incomes of nonsupervisory workers, who form roughly four-fifths of the civilian workforce: Average weekly earnings of nonsupervisory workers, total private industry, 1982 dollars 1965  $290 1970   297 1973   315  (Peak) 1975   292 1976   297 1977   299 1978   301 1979   291 1980   274 1981   271 1982   267 1983   272 1984   274 1985   271 1986   271 1987   269 1988   266 1989   263 1990   259 1991   255 1992   255  (Nadir) The poor here have a higher standard of living that in Mexico, India, Bangladesh, most of Africa, and indeed in state-run economies anywhere in the world. Completely irrelevant. Widening disparities in U.S. income have nothing to do with poverty elsewhere. We’re talking about the justice of a nation who sees the GDP grow every year and the individual wages of the vast majority of its workforce fall each year. I was attempting to lend a little perspective to the debate.  It’s difficult to moan about how poor a person is when everyone around him makes him seem prosperous by comparison.  And, again, the wages have fallen to the extent that they have because a global workforce is now available, and is begging to do the job for less money than the American worker is demanding.  The higher the wage that we demand for American workers, the more attractive that foreign worker will be to business. They aren’t poor in the sense that they’re starving to death, only "poor" in the sense that they want more money but their labor isn’t worth it in the market. You are forgetting the findings of the Harvard and Berkeley studies. They found that absolute poverty doesn’t matter so much as relative poverty — that is, inequality. The U.S. has the highest AVERAGE standard of living in the world. But among rich nations, it doesn’t have the lowest death rates, crime rates, poverty rates, high school dropout rates, etc. It actually has the highest rates among rich nations, because it has the most inequality. Regardless of what Harvard or Berkely think, I can’t call someone poor who isn’t poor.  That alot of people are better off than you does not make you any worse off.  This is politics by envy – if you feel oppressed and exploited, than you probably are. This is absurd. They feel ripped off, but they’re suffering from the fact that about 80% of the world’s population is eager, is begging to work for the wage that the American worker considers to be disgracefully inadequate.  MH There is less inequality and less poverty in the other rich nations. Workers are treated far better in Europe… infinitely better. Regardless of how infinitely better they’re treated, their standard of living is lower, though to a lesser extent than it has been the rest of the century.  Your standard of what "poverty" should be related only to the standard of living of the person you’re concerned with, not in trying to estimate how far he is from the rich family across town. Business owners went into business to make money, and in doing so they provide jobs.  But wages are part of the expenses that business owners have to factor into the prices of their products, so they have an incentive to shop around for the lowest prices for labor.  That’s human nature. If American businnesses decide to pay twice the wage that represents the market norm (i.e. what their competitors are paying) then they will have to raise prices to stay in business.  They will get killed by their competitors who are charging lower prices because they paid the going rate for labor, not some inflated sense of a "just" wage.  When the American businesses hereby go bankrupt, the workers who you are championing will be out of work altogether.  MH Do you have any empirical evidence to support your assertions? I’d be much more compelled to consider your beliefs if you would stop making proclamations by faith and back them up with evidence, statistics, studies, etc. Geez.  History vindicates my views unequivocally.  Why do you think American firms are moving jobs overseas?  Why do you think foreign firms were able to undercut our prices on automobiles, computers, and any number of things? The competitive disadvantages you speak of cannot be international in form. A thorough study by Harvard economist

… read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * * You are indeed very wrong. The 1940s, 1950s and 1960s featured the greatest * economic boom in U.S. history. Taxes were highly progressive and redistributive; * the top rate was between 88 and 91 percent for most of that time. Only in the * 80s was progressivity lost, as the top rate came down to 28 percent. And look * at the difference between the two eras: * * We boomed in those periods because the rest of the world was still * recovering from WWII, not because of sky-high taxes on the evil rich. * Germany and the rest of Europe was in shambles, Japan was still being * rebuilt (with the proceeds from those high tax rates) and the rest of * Asia was not yet in a position to challenge us in the markets of the * world.   Russia and China were too busy killing their own citizens to * worry about expanding into world markets, and we were decades ahead of * them in technology, anyway.  Of course our economy boomed through the * roof – we had no competitors on the planet!!  To point to our sky-high * tax rates and indicate that they, not a lack of competition, were to * thank for the prosperity of those decades is simply ridiculous.  MH yes but according to kind of "Limbaugh logic" that would have us all believeing that Supply side economics actually works, the higher taxes should have been a disincentive to invest and produce.  THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN.  Dispite the higher taxes, expantion and investment rolled right along. All the things you point out were true as far as the world market was concerned, but the high, almost scandelious rates (by todays standerds) did not slow down production or investments. Yes, we continued to boom despite the higher taxes.  But today we lack the luxury of being the only producers on the planet.  We lack the luxury of having no competition to kick us in our complacent ass.  Fine – have every American company double their wages.  They will have to raise their prices to pay for the increased cost of the products to produce, and then they will be killed by the foreign firms who haven’t been so politically correct.  When our firms are going bankrupt because the markets have been stolen from them like candy from a baby, what are you going to propose we do?  Let me guess – the government is then going to save us, with trade restrictions and the like.  Labor costs money, like anything else.  Businesses are going to shop around for the lowest rates in order to make the most money they can and charge a lower price than their competitors.  That you find this distateful is, I’m sorry, irrelevant.

The danger, one that is becoming more prevelant, is that in many of the developing countrys, incomes are rising. Danger you ask? Danger because the North/South divide (North:Consumer countries South:Producer Countries) is turning. "Sweat shops" are popping up all over england and europe for little Asian countries that have realised where the cheap labour is. Lowering your wages opens America up to this. (And indeed the same applys to Australia where I’m from BTW) Do you want that? You are correct on business shopping around, but here I suggest government intervention. It takes ONE (count it) piece of legislation to stop foreign investment, but somehow I doubt that is going to happen now? Somehow it wouldn’t be "self interest" But you can’t change the laws of economics to suit your vision of an "equitable" world. Neither can I, because I would love so see everyone make at least $10 an hour.  But if you mandate that our companies pay their employees a higher wage than their competitors have to pay, you’ll be killing our businesses – the ones who are providing the jobs you’re bitching about.

Answer: CREATE industrys. Business is one thing, but people on poverty wages is another. One must never forget that Business is simply an orginisation that tends to pander towards hegemonic(sp?) class disparity. The interests of Business must never be placed over the overwhelming mandate the state has to correct poverty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * Exploitation is also theft. Progressive taxes correct for exploitation. * * I disagree.  People are paid what their work is worth to the employer. * If you’re demanding a higher wage, but there is a long line of qualified * people waiting eagerly to take your job, then that’s a clue that your * "exploitation" may be a little imaginary.  Wages have shrunk in this * country more as a response to opening world markets and the grown * availability of even cheaper labor abroad than as a result of a * capitalist conspiracy.  The higher you demand that wages be here, the * more attractive it will be for companies to move that job overseas where * someone else is begging to work for the wage you consider beneath you. * People go into business to make money. Why should we lower ourselves to the standereds of a third world country to line the pockets of corp. chiefs?  In other words were saying that it’s ok to find a group of people in a third world country and pay them pauper wages, simply because it’s better then what they have now?  That is a textbook definition of exploitation. I’m not making a moral justification for the wages here, but an economic one.  I would love to see every American to make at least $10 an hour, but that doesn’t change the laws of economics.  I’m not saying that we have to turn into a third world country, only that the higher we insist wages be here, the more attractive it will be for a company to move those jobs overseas where people are begging for the wages that you consider beneath us. If you need someone to tune up your car, you aren’t going to willingly pay twice as much as you need to at one place when you know you can get the same job done more cheaply at another location.  You consider self-interest evil only when it’s  not your self-interest.

Self interest is evil when it overides the Self interest of a greater number of others. If one guy has $1000 and two others have none. Then it is moral that the guy with the $1000 gives $300 each to the other two to allow the human process of eating and sleeping to occur. If you don’t like the idea that people in other countries are willing to work for what you consider "pauper" wages, what do you propose to do about it?  If someone is willing to work for x dollars a day (or week, or month) and an employer is willing to pay them that amount, it frankly is none of your damned business.

Fair enuff. The only reason you’re so concerned that these foreign nationals may be underpaid is that you want them to be paid more, so that the demands of American workers will seem more reasonable.  Nice ruse, but you can’t change economic law.  People will act in their self-interest, and if you want to deal with them (work for them, sell to them, etc) you have to appeal to that.  This is reality.

Or legislate to the contrary: This is a much more logical reality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have nothing against people making money, but large companies distroying this country so they can line their own pockets is criminal.  Henry Ford realized that he needed a work force that could afford the product he made.  Can people slaving away in a a third world nation afford the $100 pair of basketball shoes they make? They might be making money now, but at this rate the market for $100 basketball shoes is going to dry up. Sometimes you have to seethe whole picture. I can’t afford the $100 pair of basketball shoes they make in third-world countries.  Does this mean that I am underpaid?  And if people stop buying those shoes, things will most definitely change, pronto.  Refuse to buy them on principle, and write a letter to Nike telling them so.  Have your like-minded friends do the same.  You may change something, you may not.  But as long as there is a market for these things, someone will make them, again, as economically as possible.  Nike hires these people overseas because they can do the job more cheaply than $25 an hour unionized Americans with thier family leave, time-and-a-half, 30-days-paid-vacation, mandatory-insurance and a slew of other baggage that American workers by and large thing they’re entitled to. Unless you’re going to propose that any firm that sells in America can have only American employees, I don’t see that you have much else to say.  Is that where you’re going with this? –Mark Hornberger

Your last Idea is in the hat! That, is precisely what needs to be done. By ensuring that American Countrys can only employ abroad if Minimum conditions of wage equity are met     1: It buffs up local wages.     2: It buffs up foreign wages. Not a problem! Peace, Shayne. —  Shayne O’Neill Murdoch Media & Politics. Any arguement Any time!!  Call me a leftist Subverter if you will, but there is a lot to  be said for the carefull implementation of Marxist policies in  balancing the economic gap between the oppressor and the  oppressed.    **** SUBVERT THE DOMINANT PARDGYM! *****

Response:

    Have you     ignored every scintilla of historical evidence that shows us that     massive government-mandated wealth redistribution schemes never achieve     their alleged purpose?  But… I could be wrong.    You are indeed very wrong. The 1940s, 1950s and 1960s featured the greatest    economic boom in U.S. history. Taxes were highly progressive and redistributive;    the top rate was between 88 and 91 percent for most of that time. Only in the    80s was progressivity lost, as the top rate came down to 28 percent. And look    at the difference between the two eras:   We boomed in those periods because the rest of the world was still   recovering from WWII, not because of sky-high taxes on the evil rich.   Germany and the rest of Europe was in shambles, Japan was still being   rebuilt (with the proceeds from those high tax rates) and the rest of   Asia was not yet in a position to challenge us in the markets of the   world.   Russia and China were too busy killing their own citizens to   worry about expanding into world markets, and we were decades ahead of   them in technology, anyway.  Of course our economy boomed through the   roof – we had no competitors on the planet!!  To point to our sky-high   tax rates and indicate that they, not a lack of competition, were to   thank for the prosperity of those decades is simply ridiculous.  MH  No serious economist believes that international "competition" exists on a global  market, and I would challenge you to find one. A nation’s productivity depends  almost solely on its domestic factors — period. Paul Krugman led a revolution  in a trade theory in the last 5 years by these findings, and it appears he’s on  the short list of Nobel prize winners because of it. He writes: "If you hear  someone say something along the lines of ‘America needs higher productivity so  that it can compete in today’s global economy,’ never mind who he is, or how  plausible he sounds. He might as well be wearing a flashing neon sign that  reads: ‘I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT.’"  You might be interested to know that international trade was never more than  6 percent of the U.S. economy between World War II and 1960. I would challenge  you to explain why you think such a small part of the economy would have  such a major impact that it would fuel the greatest economic boom in U.S.  history. You use terms like "simply ridiculous" to describe opposition to your  beliefs, but I can already tell that you haven’t even studied the fundamentals  of economics, and I reject your calumny until you can prove that you can post  an informed argument.    Income Growth by Quintile    Quintile       1950-1978     1979-1993    Lowest 20%     138%          -15%    2nd 20%         98            -7    3rd 20%        106            -3    4th 20%        111             5    Highest 20%     99            18    As you can see, the quintiles grew together at roughly the same pace during the years    of progressive taxation. During the 80s, however, the rich grew richer and the    poor grew poorer.   The poor didn’t get poorer in the sense that their standard of living   fell.  To look at a pie chart and see that the rich got a bigger slice   of the pie than before neglects the fact that the entire pie got bigger   over the timeframe.  Absolutely false, and completely uninformed. The following chart shows the  falling weekly incomes of nonsupervisory workers, who form roughly four-fifths  of the civilian workforce:  Average weekly earnings of nonsupervisory workers, total private industry,  1982 dollars  1965  $290  1970   297  1973   315  (Peak)  1975   292  1976   297  1977   299  1978   301  1979   291  1980   274  1981   271  1982   267  1983   272  1984   274  1985   271  1986   271  1987   269  1988   266  1989   263  1990   259  1991   255  1992   255  (Nadir)   The poor here have a higher standard of living that   in Mexico, India, Bangladesh, most of Africa, and indeed in state-run   economies anywhere in the world.  Completely irrelevant. Widening disparities in U.S. income have nothing to  do with poverty elsewhere. We’re talking about the justice of a nation  who sees the GDP grow every year and the individual wages of the vast  majority of its workforce fall each year.   They aren’t poor in the sense that   they’re starving to death, only "poor" in the sense that they want more   money but their labor isn’t worth it in the market.  You are forgetting the findings of the Harvard and Berkeley studies. They  found that absolute poverty doesn’t matter so much as relative poverty —  that is, inequality. The U.S. has the highest AVERAGE standard of living  in the world. But among rich nations, it doesn’t have the lowest death  rates, crime rates, poverty rates, high school dropout rates, etc. It actually  has the highest rates among rich nations, because it has the most inequality.   They feel ripped   off, but they’re suffering from the fact that about 80% of the world’s   population is eager, is begging to work for the wage that the American   worker considers to be disgracefully inadequate.  MH  There is less inequality and less poverty in the other rich nations. Workers  are treated far better in Europe… infinitely better.   Business owners went into business to make money, and in doing so they   provide jobs.  But wages are part of the expenses that business owners   have to factor into the prices of their products, so they have an   incentive to shop around for the lowest prices for labor.  That’s human   nature. If American businnesses decide to pay twice the wage that   represents the market norm (i.e. what their competitors are paying) then   they will have to raise prices to stay in business.  They will get   killed by their competitors who are charging lower prices because they   paid the going rate for labor, not some inflated sense of a "just"   wage.  When the American businesses hereby go bankrupt, the workers who   you are championing will be out of work altogether.  MH  Do you have any empirical evidence to support your assertions? I’d be  much more compelled to consider your beliefs if you would stop making  proclamations by faith and back them up with evidence, statistics, studies, etc.  The competitive disadvantages you speak of cannot be international in form.  A thorough study by Harvard economist Robert Lawrence found that the average  U.S. trading partner, weighted by amount of trade, pays its workers 90 percent  of what U.S. workers make. And trade forms only a very small share of our  economy. Lawrence has stated flatly that international factors  contribute "nothing" to U.S. wages. No such measurable competition exists.  Which means there are only domestic factors… and U.S. law affects (or  should affect) all companies equally, leaving no one with a competitive  disadvantage.    Exploitation is also theft. Progressive taxes correct for exploitation.   I disagree.  People are paid what their work is worth to the employer.  No, people are paid as little as an employer can get away with and still  meet his needs, because, after all, employers are self-interested human beings.   If you’re demanding a higher wage, but there is a long line of qualified   people waiting eagerly to take your job, then that’s a clue that your   "exploitation" may be a little imaginary.  Well, you’ve just proven to me you have no concept of how supply and demand  work. If supply exceeds demand, then prices fall. So if the supply of workers  exceeds the demand for them, wages will fall. In other words, job applicants  will compete with each other for the limited number of jobs, and they do so  by offering to take lower and lower wages.  I would remind you that we have an umemployment rate of about 5-6 percent in  this economy. Entry level workers are taking low-paying jobs not because  they want to, but because they have to. And that is how employers exploit  labor.   Wages have shrunk in this   country more as a response to opening world markets and the grown   availability of even cheaper labor abroad than as a result of a   capitalist conspiracy.  The higher you demand that wages be here, the   more attractive it will be for companies to move that job overseas where   someone else is begging to work for the wage you consider beneath you.   People go into business to make money.  You have a lot of reading to do on international trade theory.   –Mark Hornberger  Steve Kangas  http://www.scruz.net/~kangaroo/1THE_REAGAN_YEARs.htm Pat sez: The ‘roo notes to Mark, "You have a lot of reading to do on international trade theory." The ol’ Ph.D. c a n d i d a t e (or have you gotten it yet?) is still trying to find answers from books to his sense of how the world should be, while all the rest of the world has to do – for his already answered questions – is look at that socialist eden, the former USSR.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ignored every scintilla of historical evidence that shows us that massive government-mandated wealth redistribution schemes never achieve their alleged purpose?  But… I could be wrong. You are indeed very wrong. The 1940s, 1950s and 1960s featured the greatest economic boom in U.S. history. Taxes were highly progressive and redistributive; the top rate was between 88 and 91 percent for most of that time. Only in the 80s was progressivity lost, as the top rate came down to 28 percent. And look at the difference between the two eras: We boomed in those periods because the rest of the world was still recovering from WWII, not because of sky-high taxes on the evil rich. Germany and the rest of Europe was in shambles, Japan was still being rebuilt (with the proceeds from those high tax rates) and the rest of Asia was not yet in a position to challenge us in the markets of the world.   Russia and China were too busy killing their own citizens to worry about expanding into world markets, and we were decades ahead of them in technology, anyway.  Of course our economy boomed through the roof – we had no competitors on the planet!!  To point to our sky-high tax rates and indicate that they, not a lack of competition, were to thank for the prosperity of those decades is simply ridiculous.  MH No serious economist believes that international "competition" exists on a global market, and I would challenge you to find one. A nation’s productivity depends almost solely on its domestic factors — period. Paul Krugman led a revolution in a trade theory in the last 5 years by these findings, and it appears he’s on the short list of Nobel prize winners because of it. He writes: "If you hear someone say something along the lines of ‘America needs higher productivity so that it can compete in today’s global economy,’ never mind who he is, or how plausible he sounds. He might as well be wearing a flashing neon sign that reads: ‘I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT.’" You might be interested to know that international trade was never more than 6 percent of the U.S. economy between World War II and 1960. I would challenge you to explain why you think such a small part of the economy would have such a major impact that it would fuel the greatest economic boom in U.S. history. You use terms like "simply ridiculous" to describe opposition to your beliefs, but I can already tell that you haven’t even studied the fundamentals of economics, and I reject your calumny until you can prove that you can post an informed argument. Income Growth by Quintile Quintile       1950-1978     1979-1993 Lowest 20%     138%          -15% 2nd 20%         98            -7 3rd 20%        106            -3 4th 20%        111             5 Highest 20%     99            18 As you can see, the quintiles grew together at roughly the same pace during the years of progressive taxation. During the 80s, however, the rich grew richer and the poor grew poorer. The poor didn’t get poorer in the sense that their standard of living fell.  To look at a pie chart and see that the rich got a bigger slice of the pie than before neglects the fact that the entire pie got bigger over the timeframe. Absolutely false, and completely uninformed. The following chart shows the falling weekly incomes of nonsupervisory workers, who form roughly four-fifths of the civilian workforce: Average weekly earnings of nonsupervisory workers, total private industry, 1982 dollars 1965  $290 1970   297 1973   315  (Peak) 1975   292 1976   297 1977   299 1978   301 1979   291 1980   274 1981   271 1982   267 1983   272 1984   274 1985   271 1986   271 1987   269 1988   266 1989   263 1990   259 1991   255 1992   255  (Nadir) The poor here have a higher standard of living that in Mexico, India, Bangladesh, most of Africa, and indeed in state-run economies anywhere in the world. Completely irrelevant. Widening disparities in U.S. income have nothing to do with poverty elsewhere. We’re talking about the justice of a nation who sees the GDP grow every year and the individual wages of the vast majority of its workforce fall each year. They aren’t poor in the sense that they’re starving to death, only "poor" in the sense that they want more money but their labor isn’t worth it in the market. You are forgetting the findings of the Harvard and Berkeley studies. They found that absolute poverty doesn’t matter so much as relative poverty — that is, inequality. The U.S. has the highest AVERAGE standard of living in the world. But among rich nations, it doesn’t have the lowest death rates, crime rates, poverty rates, high school dropout rates, etc. It actually has the highest rates among rich nations, because it has the most inequality. They feel ripped off, but they’re suffering from the fact that about 80% of the world’s population is eager, is begging to work for the wage that the American worker considers to be disgracefully inadequate.  MH There is less inequality and less poverty in the other rich nations. Workers are treated far better in Europe… infinitely better. Business owners went into business to make money, and in doing so they provide jobs.  But wages are part of the expenses that business owners have to factor into the prices of their products, so they have an incentive to shop around for the lowest prices for labor.  That’s human nature. If American businnesses decide to pay twice the wage that represents the market norm (i.e. what their competitors are paying) then they will have to raise prices to stay in business.  They will get killed by their competitors who are charging lower prices because they paid the going rate for labor, not some inflated sense of a "just" wage.  When the American businesses hereby go bankrupt, the workers who you are championing will be out of work altogether.  MH Do you have any empirical evidence to support your assertions? I’d be much more compelled to consider your beliefs if you would stop making proclamations by faith and back them up with evidence, statistics, studies, etc. The competitive disadvantages you speak of cannot be international in form. A thorough study by Harvard economist Robert Lawrence found that the average U.S. trading partner, weighted by amount of trade, pays its workers 90 percent of what U.S. workers make. And trade forms only a very small share of our economy. Lawrence has stated flatly that international factors contribute "nothing" to U.S. wages. No such measurable competition exists. Which means there are only domestic factors… and U.S. law affects (or should affect) all companies equally, leaving no one with a competitive disadvantage. Exploitation is also theft. Progressive taxes correct for exploitation. I disagree.  People are paid what their work is worth to the employer. No, people are paid as little as an employer can get away with and still meet his needs, because, after all, employers are self-interested human beings. If you’re demanding a higher wage, but there is a long line of qualified people waiting eagerly to take your job, then that’s a clue that your "exploitation" may be a little imaginary. Well, you’ve just proven to me you have no concept of how supply and demand work. If supply exceeds demand, then prices fall. So if the supply of workers exceeds the demand for them, wages will fall. In other words, job applicants will compete with each other for the limited number of jobs, and they do so by offering to take lower and lower wages. I would remind you that we have an umemployment rate of about 5-6 percent in this economy. Entry level workers are taking low-paying jobs not because they want to, but because they have to. And that is how employers exploit labor. Wages have shrunk in this country more as a response to opening world markets and the grown availability of even cheaper labor abroad than as a result of a capitalist conspiracy.  The higher you demand that wages be here, the more attractive it will be for companies to move that job overseas where someone else is begging to work for the wage you consider beneath you. People go into business to make money. You have a lot of reading to do on international trade theory. –Mark Hornberger Steve Kangas http://www.scruz.net/~kangaroo/1THE_REAGAN_YEARs.htm

Pat sez: The ‘roo notes to Mark, "You have a lot of reading to do on international trade theory." The ol’ Ph.D. c a n d i d a t e (or have you gotten it yet?) is still trying to find answers from books to his sense of how the world should be, while all the rest of the world has to do – for his already answered questions – is look at that socialist eden, the former USSR. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ignored every scintilla of historical evidence that shows us that massive government-mandated wealth redistribution schemes never achieve their alleged purpose?  But… I could be wrong. You are indeed very wrong. The 1940s, 1950s and 1960s featured the greatest economic boom in U.S. history. Taxes were highly progressive and redistributive; the top rate was between 88 and 91 percent for most of that time. Only in the 80s was progressivity lost, as the top rate came down to 28 percent. And look at the difference between the two eras: We boomed in those periods because the rest of the world was still recovering from WWII, not because of sky-high taxes on the evil rich. Germany and the rest of Europe was in shambles, Japan was still being rebuilt (with the proceeds from those high tax rates) and the rest of Asia was not yet in a position to challenge us in the markets of the world.   Russia and China were too busy killing their own citizens to worry about expanding into world markets, and we were decades ahead of them in technology, anyway.  Of course our economy boomed through the roof – we had no competitors on the planet!!  To point to our sky-high tax rates and indicate that they, not a lack of competition, were to thank for the prosperity of those decades is simply ridiculous.  MH No serious economist believes that international "competition" exists on a global market, and I would challenge you to find one. A nation’s productivity depends almost solely on its domestic factors — period.

Tell this to GM and the other American automakers.  They made gas-guzzling behemoths with impunity till the Japanese bit them in the ass.  I drive a Honda and it beats the hell out of any American car I ever had.  Tell the hundreds of thousands of former American auto workers than foreign competition had no bearing on their jobs becoming nonexistent, and they’ll either laugh or punch you.  Tell IBM that Toshiba and Matshushita aren’t threats to their domestic market, and don’t need to be factored in.  I guess Sony is irrelevant, because no "serious" economist believes that there is any such thing as global competition.  Pray tell, what other explanation might you have for the economic upheaval we’ve been going through for twenty years?  Lack of government spending, perhaps? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul Krugman led a revolution in a trade theory in the last 5 years by these findings, and it appears he’s on the short list of Nobel prize winners because of it. He writes: "If you hear someone say something along the lines of ‘America needs higher productivity so that it can compete in today’s global economy,’ never mind who he is, or how plausible he sounds. He might as well be wearing a flashing neon sign that reads: ‘I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT.’" You might be interested to know that international trade was never more than 6 percent of the U.S. economy between World War II and 1960. I would challenge you to explain why you think such a small part of the economy would have such a major impact that it would fuel the greatest economic boom in U.S. history. You use terms like "simply ridiculous" to describe opposition to your beliefs, but I can already tell that you haven’t even studied the fundamentals of economics, and I reject your calumny until you can prove that you can post an informed argument.

Well, it was American firms who rebuilt Japan and Europe, and it was American firms who armed us to the teeth to protect us from the red menace.  This was all done with American products.  Also, the fact that international trade was only 6% or less of our economy actually supports my view, not yours.  American firms had no viable challenge in our domestic markets, so everything that was bought was bought from American firms.  All of our money was spent on things that were made here at home, which obviously contributed to the booming of American business. We thrived in those periods because we were in an isolation chamber – there were no foreign firms offering products to Americans, so no American dollars went back overseas.  Contrast this with today, where most of the things on the store shelves originated somewhere overseas, at least in part. American firms are having to compete in a global market, with firms who are perhaps more efficient or at the very least get to benefit from paying thier workers a wage 1/10 of what we pay ours.     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The poor didn’t get poorer in the sense that their standard of living fell.  To look at a pie chart and see that the rich got a bigger slice of the pie than before neglects the fact that the entire pie got bigger over the timeframe. Absolutely false, and completely uninformed. The following chart shows the falling weekly incomes of nonsupervisory workers, who form roughly four-fifths of the civilian workforce: Average weekly earnings of nonsupervisory workers, total private industry, 1982 dollars 1965  $290 1970   297 1973   315  (Peak) 1975   292 1976   297 1977   299 1978   301 1979   291 1980   274 1981   271 1982   267 1983   272 1984   274 1985   271 1986   271 1987   269 1988   266 1989   263 1990   259 1991   255 1992   255  (Nadir) The poor here have a higher standard of living that in Mexico, India, Bangladesh, most of Africa, and indeed in state-run economies anywhere in the world. Completely irrelevant. Widening disparities in U.S. income have nothing to do with poverty elsewhere. We’re talking about the justice of a nation who sees the GDP grow every year and the individual wages of the vast majority of its workforce fall each year.

I was attempting to lend a little perspective to the debate.  It’s difficult to moan about how poor a person is when everyone around him makes him seem prosperous by comparison.  And, again, the wages have fallen to the extent that they have because a global workforce is now available, and is begging to do the job for less money than the American worker is demanding.  The higher the wage that we demand for American workers, the more attractive that foreign worker will be to business. They aren’t poor in the sense that they’re starving to death, only "poor" in the sense that they want more money but their labor isn’t worth it in the market. You are forgetting the findings of the Harvard and Berkeley studies. They found that absolute poverty doesn’t matter so much as relative poverty — that is, inequality. The U.S. has the highest AVERAGE standard of living in the world. But among rich nations, it doesn’t have the lowest death rates, crime rates, poverty rates, high school dropout rates, etc. It actually has the highest rates among rich nations, because it has the most inequality.

Regardless of what Harvard or Berkely think, I can’t call someone poor who isn’t poor.  That alot of people are better off than you does not make you any worse off.  This is politics by envy – if you feel oppressed and exploited, than you probably are. This is absurd. They feel ripped off, but they’re suffering from the fact that about 80% of the world’s population is eager, is begging to work for the wage that the American worker considers to be disgracefully inadequate.  MH There is less inequality and less poverty in the other rich nations. Workers are treated far better in Europe… infinitely better.

Regardless of how infinitely better they’re treated, their standard of living is lower, though to a lesser extent than it has been the rest of the century.  Your standard of what "poverty" should be related only to the standard of living of the person you’re concerned with, not in trying to estimate how far he is from the rich family across town. Business owners went into business to make money, and in doing so they provide jobs.  But wages are part of the expenses that business owners have to factor into the prices of their products, so they have an incentive to shop around for the lowest prices for labor.  That’s human nature. If American businnesses decide to pay twice the wage that represents the market norm (i.e. what their competitors are paying) then they will have to raise prices to stay in business.  They will get killed by their competitors who are charging lower prices because they paid the going rate for labor, not some inflated sense of a "just" wage.  When the American businesses hereby go bankrupt, the workers who you are championing will be out of work altogether.  MH Do you have any empirical evidence to support your assertions? I’d be much more compelled to consider your beliefs if you would stop making proclamations by faith and back them up with evidence, statistics, studies, etc.

Geez.  History vindicates my views unequivocally.  Why do you think American firms are moving jobs overseas?  Why do you think foreign firms were able to undercut our prices on automobiles, computers, and any number of things? The competitive disadvantages you speak of cannot be international in form. A thorough study by Harvard economist Robert Lawrence found that the average U.S. trading partner, weighted by amount of trade, pays its workers 90 percent of what U.S. workers make. And trade forms only a very small share of our economy. Lawrence has stated flatly that international factors contribute "nothing" to U.S. wages. No such measurable competition exists.

He’s a loon.  Read Milton Friedman, a University of Chicago economist. Read Ludwig von Mises. Read Murray Rothbard.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which means there are only domestic factors… and U.S. law affects (or should

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Response:

Mark Hornberger: in response to your recent arguments, I can make a few generalizations — 1. However you wish to define poverty (by comparing it to other nations or by some absolute standard), you have still not commented on why inequality is correlated with social problems. Indeed, you are shirking this question. 2. You cannot base your entire personal beliefs on trade theory by reading a short list of (biased) authors whom you happen to agree with. You should read what your opponents have to say. Considering your statements, it is clear that you do not even know their arguments. The short list of authors you mention are outdated and are not considered on the cutting edge of trade theory. You also seem apparently ignorant of an entire revolution that has occurred within trade theory in the last 5 years. 3. The idea that the U.S. is suffering job loss due to international competition is a myth. A popular myth, to be sure, but a myth nonetheless. An excellent introduction to Krugman’s work can be found at http://daisy.uwaterloo.ca/~alopez-o/politics/dangcompet.html . Allow me to summarize Krugman’s findings, with apologies to him for any mistakes on my part: The idea that nations compete in a global market, and that the U.S. must subsidize it’s best businesses to compete better, is called "strategic trade," and is based on six premises: The first premise is that international trade has a large impact on the American economy. It doesn