Question:

::Do you file your taxes early or are you a late filer? Always early being we get a nice return  .

Question:

Sometimes the most obvious is the answer— that is why I asked you to breakdown the accounting equation for us. — Tippy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found my error and it was in compounding rather than deducting (i.e.  I added my total expenses of 7,000 to my total assets of 23,000 instead of subtracting 7,000 from 23,000 in order to arrive at my net income.  I was looking for the figure $16,000, but came up with $30,000.)  So in the end this was why I had such a huge variance. Thanks for the help anyway.

Response:

A suggestion; Never look for a specific number.  Keep the number in mind but never try to reach a certain number by matching, adding or subtracting.  Just like in your case (trying to reach $30,000) it tends to have you spin your wheels, or it might cause you to reach inaccurate results.  If you had found two or three entries (of coincidence) totaling $30,000 you would be under the assumption that you found your mistake, and could have inaccurate results. Instead, trace the transactions and check the entries for accuracy.  Might take less time, might take more,  but in the end you will always get the right figures in right accounts.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found my error and it was in compounding rather than deducting (i.e.  I added my total expenses of 7,000 to my total assets of 23,000 instead of subtracting 7,000 from 23,000 in order to arrive at my net income.  I was looking for the figure $16,000, but came up with $30,000.)  So in the end this was why I had such a huge variance. Thanks for the help anyway.

Response:

I found my error and it was in compounding rather than deducting (i.e.  I added my total expenses of 7,000 to my total assets of 23,000 instead of subtracting 7,000 from 23,000 in order to arrive at my net income.  I was looking for the figure $16,000, but came up with $30,000.)  So in the end this was why I had such a huge variance. Thanks for the help anyway.

Response:

Question:

    A hospital I once worked for did work for the local prison.  One time they refused to pay for a prisoner’s surgery because they said the hospital did not get approval before the surgery.     How many prisoners do they let out without knowing where they are going and why?     It’s a mad world.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i know this thread started with blue cross and medical bills, but don’t stop there. when my dad died, it was in another state and he had to be flown back by air.  we have an airport that lands jets, but this plane for transporting caskets has to be so big, etc, etc, that it had to land over 100 miles away.   the billing for the air fare was really high and we found an extra charge and when we question it, they took it off. the funeral home picked up the body and did the services.  when we went over the bills there was 4 things that we were charged for that they didn’t provide and it was an extra 1200 dollars. get this – they charged for the mileage of picking up the body from the airport,  they charged for the time it took.  and further down on the bill, they had charged a pick up  charge from the hospital/nursing home. now, how could my dad die and be at two places at the same time.  when we called their hand on it, they said they would adjust the bill.  but how many times do we pay it, thinking the bill is correct. ~ curtis knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional

Response:

Here’s some of my experience with my Blue Cross PPO which by the way has paid everything correctly and promptly.  The bill my urologist submitted to the insurance was $6,500 for my surgery.  The insurance paid $2,011 and then there is a note stating $4,489 "is the amount in excess of the allowed expense for a participating provider.  The member (me), therefore, is not responsible for this amount."  Does this mean my doctor only gets $2,011 for his services and gets stiffed for the balance?  

It means that the "list price" the doctor charges you is usually a phony price.  The great bulk of his patients are covered by insurance, and he gets whatever has been negotiated.   Often no money actually changes hands because it is all handled by complex financial arrangments among parties including so-called capitation payments.   The minority not covered by insurance get to pay the full charge. I know my balance due to my doctor is zero so I assume he charges $6,500 to everyone hoping some without insurance will pay to cover those also without insurance who don’t pay and that all he realistically hopes to get from insurance companies is the $2,011.  Anyone have a better or a correct explanation? Dave Perry    Has anyone paid attention to the difference between the charges on the benefit statements and the amount the insurance company pays?  Less than half in my case.  I have Blue Cross HMO.    Hope everyone is doing well.    Thank you. David S.  RRP Version.

– Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We received a bill for John’s cat and bone scans on July 3 yesterday. Since we are on the Blue Cross PPO, preferred participating providers sign a contract whereby they are only allowed to charge so much for procedures. I checked this bill against the Blue Cross statements and found that they neglected to include a Blue Cross payment of $262 in the total payments and they overcharged John by this amount.  This is just another example of why we should check our bills carefully.  They make mistakes but I think they also count on our not catching them. Just my 2 cents. — Debbie Trujillo

   I think you are being extremely paranoid. Do you honestly think they have a plan, to have their accounting sneek another $262 by you? If they had any money problems, all they need to do is raise the premiums another notch.  A billion dollar company with a license to print money doesn’t need to steal. That’s reserved for the private sector!! LOL — JK Sinrod NY Sinrod Stained Glass www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Response:

It means that the "list price" the doctor charges you is usually a phony price.  The great bulk of his patients are covered by insurance, and he gets whatever has been negotiated.   Often no money actually changes hands because it is all handled by complex financial arrangments among parties including so-called capitation payments.   The minority not covered by insurance get to pay the full charge.

Don’t forget the portion of the minority that get charged full charge and yet pay nothing. — Steve Kramer Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8 PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3

Response:

Here’s some of my experience with my Blue Cross PPO which by the way has paid everything correctly and promptly.  The bill my urologist submitted to the insurance was $6,500 for my surgery.  The insurance paid $2,011 and then there is a note stating $4,489 "is the amount in excess of the allowed expense for a participating provider.  The member (me), therefore, is not responsible for this amount."  Does this mean my doctor only gets $2,011 for his services and gets stiffed for the balance?  I know my balance due to my doctor is zero so I assume he charges $6,500 to everyone hoping some without insurance will pay to cover those also without insurance who don’t pay and that all he realistically hopes to get from insurance companies is the $2,011.  Anyone have a better or a correct explanation? Dave Perry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Has anyone paid attention to the difference between the charges on the benefit statements and the amount the insurance company pays?  Less than half in my case.  I have Blue Cross HMO.     Hope everyone is doing well.     Thank you. David S.  RRP Version.

Response:

That’s exactly what it means.  Doctors and hospitals negotiate volume discounts with insurers who get staggeringly large discounts from them.  The folks who can’t affort Insurance get to pay full price.  Doesn’t exactly sound equitable to me, but that’s our U.S. medical system for you.  Wonder why people say it’s broken??? Now if you firmly believe in letting the free market absolutely rule every aspect of society, then this is the way to go.  The people who send the majority of business to someone should get a lower rate because they’re guaranteeing a certain volume of business.  Guess it’s all in your perspective. — Dave H (from NH) Dx March 4, 03 at age 53 PSA 11.0 LRP June 10, 03 Post Op Pathology: Gleason 7(4+3)                                 negative Nodes & vesicles                                 positive margins                                 no extracapsular

Response:

    Ditto that.     For years it has been that private patients and insurers made up the difference for what doctors and hospitals lost on Medicare and Medicaid (teaching hospitals are an exception in that they have enjoyed additional Medicare reimbursement for their teaching activities).  When Managed Care came along that shifted the burden to the remaining commercial indemnity insurance and self-pay patients.  So 20% of the patients (I don’t know the real number, just pulled that out of the air) carry the burden for the government programs and the big insurance companies.  I see, by the way, that the big insurance companies are enjoying record profits this year. Hope you own their stock so you can benefit.     For those of you who remember your cost accounting (no joke intended) think about contribution margin and incremental cost.  Adding one more unit of production adds x amount of revenue.  If that covers the variable cost, then the difference is a contribution to overhead or fixed cost.  That is good.  Unfortunately if everybody pays just variable cost there is no one left to cover the fixed costs, and the result is bankruptcy (or Columbia/HCA takes over the hospital).  I think not-for-profit medicine in this country is on its last legs, and fear what will happen when all hospitals are run by the Jeffrey Skillings of the world.     Quote from an unknown economist, "there is no room for the for profit motive in healthcare".  There are several in this ng that can tell you better than I what that means to real people.     Off soapbox now.     Thanks for listening. David S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s exactly what it means.  Doctors and hospitals negotiate volume discounts with insurers who get staggeringly large discounts from them. The folks who can’t affort Insurance get to pay full price.  Doesn’t exactly sound equitable to me, but that’s our U.S. medical system for you.  Wonder why people say it’s broken??? Now if you firmly believe in letting the free market absolutely rule every aspect of society, then this is the way to go.  The people who send the majority of business to someone should get a lower rate because they’re guaranteeing a certain volume of business.  Guess it’s all in your perspective. — Dave H (from NH) Dx March 4, 03 at age 53 PSA 11.0 LRP June 10, 03 Post Op Pathology: Gleason 7(4+3)                                 negative Nodes & vesicles                                 positive margins                                 no extracapsular

Response:

i know this thread started with blue cross and medical bills, but don’t stop there. when my dad died, it was in another state and he had to be flown back by air.  we have an airport that lands jets, but this plane for transporting caskets has to be so big, etc, etc, that it had to land over 100 miles away.   the billing for the air fare was really high and we found an extra charge and when we question it, they took it off. the funeral home picked up the body and did the services.  when we went over the bills there was 4 things that we were charged for that they didn’t provide and it was an extra 1200 dollars.   get this – they charged for the mileage of picking up the body from the airport,  they charged for the time it took.  and further down on the bill, they had charged a pick up  charge from the hospital/nursing home. now, how could my dad die and be at two places at the same time.  when we called their hand on it, they said they would adjust the bill.  but how many times do we pay it, thinking the bill is correct. ~ curtis knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional

Response:

We received a bill for John’s cat and bone scans on July 3 yesterday.  Since we are on the Blue Cross PPO, preferred participating providers sign a contract whereby they are only allowed to charge so much for procedures.  I checked this bill against the Blue Cross statements and found that they neglected to include a Blue Cross payment of $262 in the total payments and they overcharged John by this amount.  This is just another example of why we should check our bills carefully.  They make mistakes but I think they also count on our not catching them. Just my 2 cents. — Debbie Trujillo Please visit my website at http://mysite.verizon.net/res21yh8/index.html.  

Response:

We received a bill for John’s cat and bone scans on July 3 yesterday.  Since we are on the Blue Cross PPO, preferred participating providers sign a contract whereby they are only allowed to charge so much for procedures.  I checked this bill against the Blue Cross statements and found that they neglected to include a Blue Cross payment of $262 in the total payments and they overcharged John by this amount.  This is just another example of why we should check our bills carefully.  They make mistakes but I think they also count on our not catching them. Just my 2 cents.

Checking the bills is important.  I also am with Blue Cross and over the past year and a half i’ve had a lot of medical appointments, tests, sugery ect.  I keep a close eye on my bills and what is and is not charged.  So far everything has been accounted for to the penny.  A couple of times I thought I had a gotcha, but it turned out that one of the doctors did not submitt it to my insurance.  For that reason it is important to check and cross check the bills with the insurance payout so that everyone is on the ball.   Dale J. —

Response:

I would agree with this.  Actually it’s probably a good practice in any case. I’ve had at least two cases where I was "balance billed" for services that were provided.  i.e the provider got his negotiated payment from my insurer and then sent me a bill for the rest.  They’re not supposed to do this and a quick call to my insurer fixed it. I’ve often wondered how many times the patient would just pay the bill.  Is it often enough to encourage providers to do this on purpose???  How paranoid do you want to be? — Dave H (from NH) Dx March 4, 03 at age 53 PSA 11.0 LRP June 10, 03 Post Op Pathology: Gleason 7(4+3)                                 negative Nodes & vesicles                                 positive margins                                 no extracapsular

Response:

    I agree that we have to check carefully, and there are definitely unscrupulous operators that would try to rely on our lack of attention and interest to score an unwarranted payment.  Just yesterday I called my credit card company on a charge for some software that I ordered which showed thirty nine dollars on the credit card statement, but the invoice was thirty two dollars.  That kind of thing could easily slip by if a person did not check carefully.     Has anyone paid attention to the difference between the charges on the benefit statements and the amount the insurance company pays?  Less than half in my case.  I have Blue Cross HMO.     Hope everyone is doing well.     Thank you. David S.  RRP Version.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  This is just another example of why we should check our bills carefully.  They make mistakes but I think they also count on our not catching them. Just my 2 cents. — Debbie Trujillo Please visit my website at http://mysite.verizon.net/res21yh8/index.html.

Response:

Question:

alt.atheism: alt.atheism: (except of course, in regards to the "no fly" zones,…….and, um, the right of the current Iraqi government to remain in power,…and let’s see,…anything else the US administrations sees fit to redefine or change…) Well, isn’t that what you do when no one is powerful enough to stop you? Personally, no. It is common among adolescent males, however.

True.  I was thinking of cops who go bad, but most of them are pretty adolescent. — Al – rukbat at optonline dot net Zymurgist # 2

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.atheism: alt.atheism: (except of course, in regards to the "no fly" zones,…….and, um, the right of the current Iraqi government to remain in power,…and let’s see,…anything else the US administrations sees fit to redefine or change…) Well, isn’t that what you do when no one is powerful enough to stop you? Personally, no. It is common among adolescent males, however. True.  I was thinking of cops who go bad, but most of them are pretty adolescent.

I was thinking more in terms of mental and emotional developement than physical age. Though I’ve generally not, as yet had any reason to complain about local law enforcement officers, I am somewhat hesitant (to say the least) to broaden their potential authority as far as several recent legislative acts have

Response:

alt.atheism: I was thinking more in terms of mental and emotional developement than physical age. Though I’ve generally not, as yet had any reason to complain about local law enforcement officers, I am somewhat hesitant (to say the least) to broaden their potential authority as far as several recent legislative acts have

I was thinking of the Abner Louima case, and a few cops who stopped female drivers for reasons other than motor vehicle violations. — Al – rukbat at optonline dot net Zymurgist # 2

Response:

I was thinking of the Abner Louima case, and a few cops who stopped female drivers for reasons other than motor vehicle violations. —

Hmm, and after listening to the recent "new and improved" justifications for our actions in Iraq, you’d think that the only government officials who use their authority to rape women and mistreat or kill citizens were Iraqi!

Response:

alt.atheism: I was thinking of the Abner Louima case, and a few cops who stopped female drivers for reasons other than motor vehicle violations. Hmm, and after listening to the recent "new and improved" justifications for our actions in Iraq, you’d think that the only government officials who use their authority to rape women and mistreat or kill citizens were Iraqi!

If you listen to the new and improved spin you’d think we actually have a reason to invade Iraq. — Al – rukbat at optonline dot net Zymurgist # 2

Response:

alt.atheism: (except of course, in regards to the "no fly" zones,…….and, um, the right of the current Iraqi government to remain in power,…and let’s see,…anything else the US administrations sees fit to redefine or change…)

Well, isn’t that what you do when no one is powerful enough to stop you? Isn’t that why some cops thought they could get away with shoving a stick up someone’s ass?  Who was going to stop them? That’s all we’re doing now – shoving a stick up Iraq’s ass.  If we ever get caught I pity us. — Al – rukbat at optonline dot net Zymurgist # 2

Response:

alt.atheism: (except of course, in regards to the "no fly" zones,…….and, um, the right of the current Iraqi government to remain in power,…and let’s see,…anything else the US administrations sees fit to redefine or change…) Well, isn’t that what you do when no one is powerful enough to stop you?

Personally, no. It is common among adolescent males, however.

Response:

….  Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring States,……

(except of course, in regards to the "no fly" zones,…….and, um, the right of the current Iraqi government to remain in power,…and let’s see,…anything else the US administrations sees fit to redefine or change…)

Response:

So what!  Who appointed us the worlds policeman?   Bush is on a religous crusade that is going to get a lot of people killed, theirs and ours. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Here is the text of UN resolution 1441. The ful text of the referenced resolutions is also online. Take note of the appendix in which it is recorded by the UN that Iraq accepted this resolution and agreed to help implement it.   The archive of UN docs, incuding rthe last 12 years of resolutions cited in 1441 as having been flouted by Iraq, can be searched at: http://www.un.org/documents Adopted unanymously as Resolution 1441 at Security Council meeting 4644, 8 November 2002          The Security Council,          Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President,          Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,          Recognizing the threat Iraq

Question:

We sell to customers across Canada. Most items purchased from us are PST exempt as they are for re-sale.  Recently we have added tools to our product line. Could someone let me know if we charge PST on all tool sales in Ontario, where we are located, or should we be collecting provincial taxes from tool sales to all provinces ? Thank you Gary

Response:

I think you should only charge PST on sales in Ontario.  You don’t need the hassle of collecting PST in other Provinces and have no way of remitting the tax to those jurisdictions anyway.  If someone buys something out of Province, it is up to the buyer to pay the PST to his provincial tax authority.  If you have offices in other provinces, then you should get registered as a Vendor in those provinces and collect and remit the PST on sales in those provinces. Who needs the hassle of collecting and accounting for PST if you don’t have to? Peter

Response:

You should charge ORST (Ontario Retail Sales Tax) on sales in Ontario unless the customer provides an exemption.  You probably need not charge PST on sales in other provinces; in such cases it is the buyer’s responsibility to pay tax to his province, though of course some will "forget" to do so. There are some circumstances in which you might be "deemed" to have a "permanent establishment" in another province and be required to collect and pay sales tax in that province, but from the very limited information given it is unlikely that would be a concern for you.  If your business is incorporated, you would also be required to allocate a portion of taxable income to that province (and to file a provincial corporation tax return if that province requires a separate return). If you have any reason to believe this might apply to you, ask the tax authorities in that province and consult your competent professional accountant.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We sell to customers across Canada. Most items purchased from us are PST exempt as they are for re-sale.  Recently we have added tools to our product line. Could someone let me know if we charge PST on all tool sales in Ontario, where we are located, or should we be collecting provincial taxes from tool sales to all provinces ? Thank you Gary

Response:

It depends on the level ($ amount) of sales that you make to customers in other jurisdictions (provinces).  Provinces have agreements with each other as to threshold levels, collection and remittance mechanisms.  For example, if you buy a computer from Dell or IBM and even if they have no sales office in your province they are required to collect and remit tax to the proper taxing authority.  If you sell goods to Atlantic Canada the newer HST regime is administered by the Federal regime and you must collect taxes if your sales are in excess of $30,000/year.  I’m not sure if that is for your entire operation or if it can be broken down by jurisdiction, I believe it to be the total sales. The laws and application of exemption certificates is a mumble jumble, ridiculous set of absurd rules from province to province.  In Atlantic Canada there are no exemption certificates since the introduction of HST. You should really consult with a sales tax professional on this matter.  Your provincial tax department can also offer guidelines on the subject.  If you are not careful with this you may be held liable for all uncollected/unremitted tax.  A 4 year back tax audit could cause tremendous financial difficulties and you have no recourse after the fact to collect uncharged tax from individuals in all 4 corners of the country.  Tax auditors care little about sob stories, they have first dibs on any funds in case of bankruptcy.  You are gambling the financial health of your company if you do not get professional advise or ruling from the taxing authorities in questions.  I can tell you for certain that the Federal GST department will be able to instruct you as for sales to Atlantic Canada, as for the other provinces start by talking to someone in the Ontario tax department.  Save yourself  from future major headaches by talking to a tax proffessional. John. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We sell to customers across Canada. Most items purchased from us are PST exempt as they are for re-sale.  Recently we have added tools to our product line. Could someone let me know if we charge PST on all tool sales in Ontario, where we are located, or should we be collecting provincial taxes from tool sales to all provinces ? Thank you Gary

Response:

Question:

Most of the new dsp chips being used are manufactured "in-house" Think about how many celeron’s are being sold, then think about how many aids, with the different models and manufacturers.  Intel would laugh at Bill Austin(Starkey) if he asked them to make it. They wouldn’t go thru the trouble to re-tool for the order they would get… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -zaf…@my-deja.com wrote: > Thanks for the excellent and well informed post.  I would like to > challange you on the following point: > In article <3957E811.FB6A8…@none.none>, >   Bob <n…@none.none> wrote: >   The cost of the > digital > > circuitry alone usually exceeds $200, not including amortizing in the > > R&D expense. > If you are talking about a bag of components WITHOUT transducers (mikes > & speakers), then you are paying way too much unless you are buying JAN > grade (i.e. military) parts.  I would be shocked to find leaded > components in a hearing aid, they take up waaaayyyy too much room. > Electronics are dirt cheap.  You can buy a top notch op amp for <$1 > these days, smt resistors <1 cent a piece, tantalum caps are expensive > relatively speaking we pay about a penny per microfarad @16V.  I don’t > know what you pay for your DSP, but silicon cost boils down to die size > at a given technology.  If intel can sell a celeron for $80, there is no > reason you should be paying more (unless your die size is bigger, which > i think unlikely). > I design high end computers ($200K and up), and even I cannot appreciate > how inexpensive electronics can be.  If you have any doubt, open up a > $60 VCR and look at all those resistors, caps, and analog stuff, I don’t > know how the do it, but they do. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Response:

We are already able to get loaner instruments at reduced prices and many of us do…We allow all patients to demo BTE’s in their homes if they wish…If they are insistent on trying ITE’s or similar custom products then they must purchase them with a sixty day full refund guarantee…GG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kerri wrote: > Bob wrote: > > This brings me to the last important cost

Question:

I have a Shurflo 200 series water pump that’s giving me trouble after I tried winterizing the water system. Here’s what I did: Drained hot water heater. Ran faucets with pump on until water stopped coming out. I forgot about the relief valve on the water heater so I had to finish draining it. I drained the holding tank and then disconnected the hose that exits the holding tank and leads into the water pump (there’s a break in the line just for this, I suppose). I then put the hose that leads to the water pump into the anti-freeze jug, then turned on the pump. Nothing happened. The pump didn’t take any anti-freeze out of the jug. So I decided to try it by pouring the anti-freeze into the holding tank and then powering on the water pump. So I econnected everything and did that. Still nothing happened. No water came out of the faucets when I turned them on and the pump just continues to run. It’s not pressurizing. So I checked all the lines again for leaks. Checked the valves (has three for draining). Still it wouldn’t pressurize. So I decided to see if it would pressurize if I hooked up the water line (hose) from my home. I did that, it filled up the hot water heater and all the faucets worked. I turned on the water pump and it didn’t come on (because the system was pressurized). I then disconnected the hose from the house and tried the water pump. It just ran and ran. It didn’t pressurize the system. I’m guessing I have a bad water pump??? Or maybe I need to prime it??? How much suction do these pumps have? This Shurflo is rated at 3 gals. per minute. When I disconnect the line going into it and turn the pump on, I can put my finger up to the inlet and it doesn’t feel like it has much, if any, suction. Right now I have the system drained and I’m going to blow out the lines. I don’t have a bypass on the hot water heater, but if I have to order a pump I might as well get one. Thanks in advance for your help. — Rich D.  KC0CHJ EBS & DakotaMade.com http://www.DakotaMade.com http://www.DakotaMade.com/EBS

Response:

Rich, Sounds exactly what happened to us with our new motorhome.  We had winterized before heading south and filled the tank after reaching warmer weather.  The pump would not prime. We called CoachNet and were told to open all faucets and run the pump until it started pumping.  They said it could take a half hour or more.  35 minutes later we had water and no problems in the next 3 months on the road. We had been worried about running the pump dry for that long but they told us it would not hurt the pump.  Now, almost a year later, the pump is still working fine. Happy RVing, Skip & Sharon control. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a Shurflo 200 series water pump that’s giving me trouble after I tried winterizing the water system. Here’s what I did: Drained hot water heater. Ran faucets with pump on until water stopped coming out. I forgot about the relief valve on the water heater so I had to finish draining it. I drained the holding tank and then disconnected the hose that exits the holding tank and leads into the water pump (there’s a break in the line just for this, I suppose). I then put the hose that leads to the water pump into the anti-freeze jug, then turned on the pump. Nothing happened. The pump didn’t take any anti-freeze out of the jug. So I decided to try it by pouring the anti-freeze into the holding tank and then powering on the water pump. So I econnected everything and did that. Still nothing happened. No water came out of the faucets when I turned them on and the pump just continues to run. It’s not pressurizing. So I checked all the lines again for leaks. Checked the valves (has three for draining). Still it wouldn’t pressurize. So I decided to see if it would pressurize if I hooked up the water line (hose) from my home. I did that, it filled up the hot water heater and all the faucets worked. I turned on the water pump and it didn’t come on (because the system was pressurized). I then disconnected the hose from the house and tried the water pump. It just ran and ran. It didn’t pressurize the system. I’m guessing I have a bad water pump??? Or maybe I need to prime it??? How much suction do these pumps have? This Shurflo is rated at 3 gals. per minute. When I disconnect the line going into it and turn the pump on, I can put my finger up to the inlet and it doesn’t feel like it has much, if any, suction. Right now I have the system drained and I’m going to blow out the lines. I don’t have a bypass on the hot water heater, but if I have to order a pump I might as well get one. Thanks in advance for your help. — Rich D.  KC0CHJ EBS & DakotaMade.com http://www.DakotaMade.com http://www.DakotaMade.com/EBS

Response:

[snippity] I’m guessing I have a bad water pump??? Or maybe I need to prime it??? How much suction do these pumps have?

I had a similar problem. Even though the intake was under water when I showed 1/4 tank full, it would’t [prime. Finally, after the water tank was over 3/4 full it  primed an started pumping water. My guess is that the pump didn't have enough vacuum to lift the water from the very bottom of the tank,  but it had enough vacuum to lift water from the top of the filled up tank. George C Remove the  "deleteme and dot" from my address to e-mail me. Personal homepage:     http://nortons.home.mindspring.com Dr Thokes Charter Fishing:   http://drthoke.8m.com

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I have a Shurflo 200 series water pump that's giving me trouble after I tried winterizing the water system. Here's what I did: <<snip I'm guessing I have a bad water pump??? Or maybe I need to prime it??? How much suction do these pumps have?

<<snip         Usually, this problem is due to a bad valve body in the pump (the rubber dries out, the valves don't seal very well, and the pump won't prime- other indications are the pump not wanting to shut off). Another problem is the swashplate has screws that sometimes get loose.         But.....         That said, I never try to sell someone something they don't need (much to my accountants' dismay), but in this case, if it was me, I would put in a new ShurFlo model 2088 pump.         The new models have a much improved valve body design, along with better material (buna rubber- more resistant to clorine). This is one of the things that the new ones are so much better than the old design that it is really better just to replace it (IMHO).         Also- the specs call for the pump to be capable of a 6 ft. vertical prime- it may take a while, but in good shape, it'll do it. Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services

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I have a Shurflo 200 series water pump that's giving me trouble after I tried winterizing the water system. Here's what I did: Drained hot water heater. Ran faucets with pump on until water stopped coming out. I forgot about the relief valve on the water heater so I had to BIG SNIP ABOUT THE PUMP NOT PRIMING minute. When I disconnect the line going into it and turn the pump on, I can put my finger up to the inlet and it doesn't feel like it has much, if any, suction.

If I understand you correctly you ran the pump until it sucked air and then it wouldn't pick up antifreeze?  If this is the case then I suggest there is likely nothing wrong with your pump but it does need to be primed.  Connecting the system to external water pressure won't solve the problem because there is a slug of air in your RV system between the city inlet and the pump.  What I would suggest is to put some water or antifreeze in the freshwater tank and lightly pressurize that tank.  You could do something exotic with an airhose wedged into the water inlet with a regulator to control the pressure but what I would try first is just blowing on the inlet.  Jam a hose in the water inlet (fill inlet for the fresh tank in other words), stuff a rag in around it to make sure the seal is airtight, turn on the pump in the RV, wrap your lips around the hose and blow for all you're worth.   Right now I have the system drained and I'm going to blow out the lines. I don't have a bypass on the hot water heater, but if I have to order a pump I might as well get one.

You may need one but I don't think so.   To avoid this situation in the future don't run the pump dry.  Drain the freshwater tank but DON'T RUN THE PUMP.  Hook the pump up with whatever hose arrangement you use to draw anti-freeze into the system. Personally I prefer to set up some tee's and valves so I can easily switch from the fresh tank to the anti-freeze jug but do whatever works for you.  Don't turn on the pump in the RV until you are actually ready to suck anti-freeze into the system.  That way the water in the pump will keep it primed as it draws the antifreeze in.

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I would recommend rigging a vent line on the pump suction line to allow the pump to prime with the water/antifreeze. With the vent line open and water lined up to the pump suction, start the pump and when water issues from the pump, shut the vent line. Jeff * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

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[snippity] I’m guessing I have a bad water pump??? Or maybe I need to prime it??? How much suction do these pumps have? This Shurflo is rated at 3 gals. per minute. When I disconnect the line going into it and turn the pump on, I can put my finger up to the inlet and it doesn’t feel like it has much, if any, suction. Right now I have the system drained and I’m going to blow out the lines. I don’t have a bypass on the hot water heater, but if I have to order a pump I might as well get one.

I have three of those pumps, two on catering trailers and one on the RV.  They all behave similarly so I feel safe in generalizing here. I’ve found them to be incapable of priming themselves with even a few inches’ lift if there is any pressure at all on the outlet. I’ve also found that the intake valves tend to stick, requiring a disassembly.  Pretty much any debris in the water will stick in the intake valve. I have installed vent valves right on the outlets of the pumps to allow me to reestablish prime if the pump loses it.  I simply open the valve and let the pump run till water comes out.  I still end up having to disassemble each pump an average of once a year to unstick the valves. Another problem I’ve had with two of the pumps is the field magnets coming unglued from the motor frame.  They then drag on the armature, slowing the pump and causing high current draw.  My permanent repair has consisted of thorough cleaning of the frame and magnets followed by gluing them back in place using urethane wood glue.  This stuff is super strong and quite heat resistant.  I hold the 2-piece frame together with a pipe clamp while pressing the magnets against the frame with an inflated balloon stuck where the armature goes.  Note that the magnets span the frame halves. If you install a magnet in each half (hey, looks correct) the motor won’t run.  Important to get the magnets back in the correct place to avoid excess current draw and commutator burning. John — John De Armond http://neonjohn.4mg.com Neon John’s Custom Neon Cleveland, TN "Bendin’ Glass ‘n Passin’ Gas"

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between moments of lucidity.  However, Randi’s refusal to sign Benneth’s application form before (and if) they go to bat could be construed as a dodge. I don’t know what a lawyer would say. Well, I do. The Challenge is a unilateral contract. It’s kind of an unusual insrument, if you can call it that. I call it b’llsh’t. Anyway, there’s no clear legal recourse until he signs it as far as I can see, and it really takes an expert on unilaterals to tell us what it is, and even then, what kind of an agreement is it really? And what’s it’s jurisdiction? All I have

Are you saying that you’ve sought legal counsel (or done your own research) and have been told or learned that there’s no legal guarantee that if you win the preliminary according to the mutually agreed upon protocol that Alain and Randi are working on — including the homeopathic pharmacist and trusty NIST biochemist, the cameras, the accounting firm, et al. — that Randi will be legally bound to negotiate a final trial with you?  This is the exact opposite of what Mona, a lawyer, is insisting to be the case. from Randi are about five or six dozen e-mails from the man either to me or about me, and all derogatory or threats to humiliate me. In one he types to me an angry sounding letter in ALL CAPS and  commands me to F*CK OFF. Now why does he have to act so hostile if he’s got a valid offer?      And here’s more questions:

I’ve been tempted to type those words to you myself, and I’ve only been on the receiving end of a fraction of the venom you’ve directed at Randi.       NAME ONE APPLICANT HE’S EVER TESTED.

Why should it really matter as far as *your* case is concerned?  I do have the name and ph. number of the homeopath (or his secretary; I can’t remember) he tested, BTW — I got it from Randi — and when I offered to share it with you a few months ago, you basically said "who cares?"       WHO AT GOLDMAN SACHS WILL VERIFY THE AWARD?

Have you actually phoned or faxed the GS numbers given on the application form you signed?       WHY CAN’T WE SEE THE RECORDS OF PREVIOUS TRIALS IF THERE ARE ANY?

That would be highly desirable, but why should it prevent you from pursuing your shot at the Challenge?       WHY WON’T RANDI SIGN HIS OWN CHALLENGE?

I’d also like to know; but it would seem his signature isn’t required on this "unilateral contract" for it to be enforceable.      If all the answers to these questions is so easy, then why is he hiding them?

I don’t know why he’s hiding "most* of them (where’s the secrecy about Goldman Sachs, for instance?), but again, if you’re legally protected and can agree on a protocol that gives you a fair chance to prove your ability, what’s the problem? Why let these details deter you from moving in for the kill?       SYd, I’ve been screaming about this for over half a year now. After a while it’s gets to be funny and I actually start feeling sorry for him.  So what’s left to do but clown around until he wakes up from the smell of his reputation in flames? Really, if he wants me to act sensibly, then he could start the ball rolling by simply typing a few names so we could check this out. ANd why is he Maybe if he thinks I’m a crazy fool it will give him the needed confidence and schedule a test of my claims. But of course, that would mean he’d have to sign the paper, wouldn’t it? And he won’t do tthat, will he? He’s never done it before, and he’ll never do it ever.       But maybe you can work on him to endorse my proposal to open testing       up to the schools using my oat test and the Jones/Jenkins Yeast test. http://www.marius.net/yeast.html

He is so gonna like that idea, don’t ya know! At this point I’ve given up any hope of getting my million bucks from his cheap carney act inthe way he’s suggested it can’t be done, so what do I have to lose by revealing my methods? Let a bunch of little school kids validate my claims. What could be better? Besides, I got other ways of doing this he hasn’t even dreamed of yet.      WHERE"S MY MILLION RANDI? I GOT YOUR PROOF BOTH LIVING AND MECHANICAL, RIGHT HERE.  . . . COME AND GET IT!

I can hear his little footsteps galloping your way this very minute. Syd            http://www.escape.ca/~sgb                      Dealing with Depression Naturally                               and other books by Syd Baumel.                                      …and cool record reviews!

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What do you mean, erf? You have to sign away your right to sue when you apply, don’t you?

It’s hd, erf is jus’ a ‘lil noise.  This have been debated to death.  The clause in the challenge dealing with lawsuits wouldn’t prevent someone from suing to collect the prize if they won.  Plus substantial damages. ruf

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Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. Good advice Doggie, you should follow it!!! The point is that Randi makes you sign a contract so you CANNOT sue him. Understand now? The person has no recourse if Randi refuses to pay. He must not be too sure of his challenge if he has to resort to such tactics.

A lawyer, we already checked out her credentials, who works in this field, has opined that the clause in Randi’s contract wouldn’t prevent someone who won the challenge from suing for their money.  It isn’t the purpose of the clause.  And if you’d followed idiots like Riley G., you’d see why it’s necessary. arf

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up?

Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. erf

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So describe the experiments.   — John Walkup

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up? Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. erf

What do you mean, erf? You have to sign away your right to sue when you apply, don’t you? kb

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up? Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. erf

Good advice Doggie, you should follow it!!! The point is that Randi makes you sign a contract so you CANNOT sue him. Understand now? The person has no recourse if Randi refuses to pay. He must not be too sure of his challenge if he has to resort to such tactics.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very, very well put.  I wish the skeptical community would openly ponder the possibility that the Emperor has been wearing too many clothes. Your recommendations for tightening the screws on the ‘Randi Challenge’ thing are valuable. The Challenge is an important signal tower for those skeptics who prefer not to investigate the paranormal for themselves. Most believe that until someone wins the million, the evidence supporting PSI amounts to precicely zero and there is no need to read and take seriously published articles or books, no matter how well recieved these are by the more critical scientific establishment. Randi therefore has a lot of power, and as long as he is able to dodge promising applicants evidence obtained by serious researchers will not readily reach it’s audience. I have no direct evidence that Randi has ever tried to dodge promising applicants, other than putting Benneth on hold for no good reason for three months.

Make that seven months, Syd . . . he’s been doing the Zwinge waltz since last January . . . Ironically, now it’s Randi who has been nose-to- the-grindstone since ~July 31 in trying to negotiate a trial for Benneth (not *with* Benneth, and I can’t say that I blame him), but Benneth has been playing (or being) the clown, fool, crazed Prince of Denmark … between moments of lucidity.  However, Randi’s refusal to sign Benneth’s application form before (and if) they go to bat could be construed as a dodge. I don’t know what a lawyer would say.

Well, I do. The Challenge is a unilateral contract. It’s kind of an unusual insrument, if you can call it that. I call it b’llsh’t. Anyway, there’s no clear legal recourse until he signs it as far as I can see, and it really takes an expert on unilaterals to tell us what it is, and even then, what kind of an agreement is it really? And what’s it’s jurisdiction? All I have from Randi are about five or six dozen e-mails from the man either to me or about me, and all derogatory or threats to humiliate me. In one he types to me an angry sounding letter in ALL CAPS and  commands me to F*CK OFF. Now why does he have to act so hostile if he’s got a valid offer?      And here’s more questions:       NAME ONE APPLICANT HE’S EVER TESTED.       WHO AT GOLDMAN SACHS WILL VERIFY THE AWARD?       WHY CAN’T WE SEE THE RECORDS OF PREVIOUS TRIALS IF THERE ARE ANY?       WHY WON’T RANDI SIGN HIS OWN CHALLENGE?       If all the answers to these questions is so easy, then why is he hiding them?       SYd, I’ve been screaming about this for over half a year now. After a while it’s gets to be funny and I actually start feeling sorry for him.  So what’s left to do but clown around until he wakes up from the smell of his reputation in flames? Really, if he wants me to act sensibly, then he could start the ball rolling by simply typing a few names so we could check this out. ANd why is he Maybe if he thinks I’m a crazy fool it will give him the needed confidence and schedule a test of my claims. But of course, that would mean he’d have to sign the paper, wouldn’t it? And he won’t do tthat, will he? He’s never done it before, and he’ll never do it ever.        But maybe you can work on him to endorse my proposal to open testing up to the schools using my oat test and the Jones/Jenkins Yeast test. http://www.marius.net/yeast.html At this point I’ve given up any hope of getting my million bucks from his cheap carney act inthe way he’s suggested it can’t be done, so what do I have to lose by revealing my methods? Let a bunch of little school kids validate my claims. What could be better? Besides, I got other ways of doing this he hasn’t even dreamed of yet.       WHERE"S MY MILLION RANDI? I GOT YOUR PROOF BOTH LIVING AND MECHANICAL, RIGHT HERE.  . . . COME AND GET IT! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, even the most zealous skeptics agree that at least some small PSI effects have been demonstrated to exist. And still, the million dollars have not been won. This fact alone should be enough to convince skeptics that the Challenge is not as subtle a barometer of PSI activity as they might think. Either Randi revamps his program by exposing the mechanics and dynamics of his application policy and by publishing the details of tests and preliminaries, or he should throw in the towl and declare the program void. That would hopefully send skeptics back to doing what they should, namely informing themselves about the status of psi-research as it stand today, instead of wasting their time standing at attention in Randi’s ranks. Joris van Dorp Syd

Yeah, Joris has written the definitive statement and speaks my sentiments exactly. John Benneth at the World’s greatest website Click here and see why . . . http://www.marius.net/ (Nose to the grindstone, yeah right sure. Most of it is his complaining about all the e-mail he gets about this . . . and by the way, Art Bell told me he does this . . . and Art has invtied him to appear on the program, but you know magic is a vanishing art)

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. Look, Randi, why don’t you take two of the tests we’ve furnished for you, and your people, whoever they are, can do them immediately as your preliminary tests. In fact, why doesn’t everyone who reads this do the test or do something to have it done in their area?.

 What type of test are you talking about? Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. Peter Moran

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense.

And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up?

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. Look, Randi, why don’t you take two of the tests we’ve furnished for you, and your people, whoever they are, can do them immediately as your preliminary tests. In fact, why doesn’t everyone who reads this do the test or do something to have it done in their area?.  What type of test are you talking about?

We’ve come up with a protocol that narrows down the arugment to separating homeopathically potentized solutions form non.     The problem now is to get Randi to agree to a test. To provide further evidence, and because Randi’s refusing to accept the information as confirmation of our cliam, we’re releasing two different but easy methods by which to do what we’re claiming can be done.      One makes use of oat seeds and takes a few days to get results, but the other uses yeast and the results can be seen within 24 hours sing a microscope.       All these people who have mouths bigger than their brains can now see for themselves using objective measures whether it works or not. So now the argument about homeopathy can go from "he said" to "I saw."      Try it and see for yourself if you won’t agree that Randi owes me a million bucks. Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense.

As one of the crackpots, I have to say that getting an outcome as you put it, seems to be impossible to do with Randi. I applied to take the test seven months ago, and now he’s saying he won’t communicate with me. When I’ve sent evidence to him he becomes furious, starts writing me long letters in all caps, and cussing me out. He won’t even sign and return his own challenge. If he’s afreaid of being sued, then why did he make the offer in the first place? If he’s so sure I can’t win, then why doesn’t schedule the trial and get it over with? And so far, we have not seen any reports of previous trials, nor have we been able to find anyone he’s ever tested or have we ever seen a signed copy of his CHallenge for anyone previously. To me, from first hand knowledge, the Psychic Challenge is not a valid offer, nor does it seem to have bever been one, and it makes me wonder how much valid phenomena he’s been suppressing. Most of his communication to us has been hostile.. Perhaps you can tell us where reports of former trials can be found. And how many of these "crackpots" do you know who have tried to sue him? Peter Moran

Thanks for responding to this, Peter. If I can furnish anymore information, let me know. John Benneth http://www.marius.net/proof.html

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             DIRECTLY RELEVANT: Getting on with it  Organization:             Personal   References:             1 My chemist (PhD in analytical chemistry) can do the preparation any weekend in November.  The work will all be done at Mount Saint Mary’s College. Will Benneth be ready by then?                                 Randi

     Well how do you like that?       Will Benneth be ready then? Benneth was ready the day hefiled the application to the Psychic CHallenge, on January 26th, 1999 http://www.marius.net/application.html      After seven months of bickering Randal finally agrees to a test at Mt. St. Mary’s College on some weekend in November. But what college is he talking about? Here we have a puicture of some scientists sitting around a desk at the college you propose. Is this NIST? http://www.msmcollege.com/science_dep.htm Or is this it? http://www.msmary.edu/science/ Maybe  this is it? http://www.msmc.edu/webdex/science/science/home.htm       What are you trying to pull now, Mr. Zwinge?      Seriously, I think we ALL can do better than this. Look, Randi, why don’t you take two of the tests we’ve furnished for you, and your people, whoever they are, can do them immediately as your preliminary tests. In fact, why doesn’t everyone who reads this do the test or do something to have it done in their area?. Maybe everyone could go to the science editor of their local newspaper or the head of the science department at your local college, start there, ask who could pull this off, who would be interested?       Tell them why it’s important. Tell them its to validate or debunk what purposts to be the world’s greatest doctrine of energy medicine ever known. Money and lives are riding on it.      The yeast test is the quickest one to do, but the oat test is the easiest.      Do both yourself, or get one of your people to do it, Randi, and everyone else should be doing the same.     What’s the big deal here? If a dummy, as you call me,  can pull it off, why can’t you, a MacArthur Genius, do it?  You’re the genius here who never finished high school? Is the problem not enough time?      If it’s time, we would have had this done long ago. You would have had the confidence to shoot me down immediately.      Or at least try. But you haven’t done it because you already lost this war long ago. You’ve seen plenty of evidence to prove that what you’re talking about is real, and so all you can do is to hurl ad hominem.      Is it that it isn’t important? I don’t think so. I think it’s real important. Homeopathy is a growth industry. The consumer is demanding that his government use its superior resources to rectify its trade. And it WILL happen, within a few years, homeopathy will be regulated, as it is in France with the bug remedies like the clap (Medorrhinum), because they are not similia, they are idem, and Hahnemann enjoins us against the use of idem for present manifestations of disease. . . .      There’s a lot of people out there who believe that there really is something to homeopathy, and if they’re wrong, they’re being defrauded and this is a grand hoax that should be exposed. But if the opposite is true, then this may be further validation for what appears to a lot of people as being the greatest known medical doctrine to appear in modern times. It already has become, within only 200 years, the second most used doctrine of healing in the world today, second only to Chinese medicine. That’s a lot of people for a high school dropout to characterize as stupid.      So what I suggest we do is start promoting these two tests. I’ll start posting the recipes at my web site at http://www.marius.net      And I’ll hit the newsgroups with this.      This way anyone can have access to the tests and do them for themselves to see if this is a real phenomenon. Skeptics, believers, and agnostics alike can all have the same simple procedure. All the St. Mary’s Colleges all over the world can have the test by simply logging on to http://marius.net . And then if we need to, we’ll start collecting affidavits from people who have done testing and we’ll present these to Goldman Sachs as as the preliminary evidence.      Randi, you can do these experiments for yourself and see the results. I’ll give you  the method and tell you what ingredients you need  to do it with, I’ll consult with your top scientists, although you might want to call on your quantum physicist to render an opinion for you as well about this      And lets bring in some outside testimony for what this is, that is if you’re still not convinced. People like Richard Gerber, M.D., the author of VIBRATIONAL MEDICINE. And Andrew Weil, M.D. Let’s officially bring in a representative from NIST, let’s have invite the APS to run the tests.      Let’s also being in a well known jurist, somebody on the level of a Bork to oversee any formal test. ANd let’s use everyday people to create the double blind, people neither you nor I have anything to do with selecting.      And let’s go before the media with this. We can squeeze this for everything it’s worth. You can hype your book and I can hype mine.      Then instead of everyone having an opinion about what someone else has claimed to have done, they can do for it themselves. Or do you just want to go on arguing and trading barbs like we’ve been doing?  Either way, I’m going to enjoy it. I’ve got more than enough evidence to prove the hypothesis, plenty of published studies, and more than enough method, and I’ve got a whole library worth of ad hominem remarks I can make about Hamilton Zwinge, either way I’m bucked up solid and real confident I can’t lose. So what’s it going to be, Randal? Either way it’s fine, or you can get your little white hanky out and concede now, maybe we can work out a cash settlement. I don’t care, but how is it again I’m supposed to lose? In some dark little classroom at some little ignominious school in England?     If after doing the little experiments I’ve given you and everyone else you all come up with nothing , well,  then by a putative decision we’ll have our results. If they’re negative and people are complaining that this doesn’t work, then we can all consider that the hypothesis was wrong. But if the results are positive, if you’re getting deluged by school children from Mount St. Mary’s College in England who are seeing the same 150% growth over the controls that I recorded in the oat test, if people are replicating the work of Jones and Jenkins with yeast, then maybe that will be a cue that it’s time to schedule a formal trial of your hypothesis, that , how did Mr. Thuro, aka Happy Dog, put it? *The purpose of the challenge is to refute the argument that there is insufficient incentive for promoters of the paranormal, like homeopaths, to prove their assertions.* So as a promoter of what you would deem the paranormal, I have to say that after seven months you have yet to show me the bait. And this upsets me. I took your offer to be made in good faith and I think that when the American public sees what it is that you’ve been pulling, they’re going to feel disenchanted with you, not homeopathy. I think those of us who have applied to your little challenge feel there has been little incentive to take your test. You won’t even sign your own challenge. YOu won’t even give us the name of the person at Goldman Sachs whose supposed to confirm that you even have a prize. That’s not too much to ask for people who are risking reputation and expense to meet the demands of your challenge.      I think when the American public sees what it is you’re doing, they’re going to be upset with people like you and Bob Park, because they take you to be a modern Diogenes, dedicated to the truth, not deception.  Yet that is all your craft speaks for itself, are these perpetual deceptions that serve no one but yourself in the way they aggrandize you. And is it hurting people? Yes, your recalcitrance to look at the facts is indeed hurting people, it’s killing people, because it creating a situation where superior medical treatment is being withheld from them because its been denounced by the likes of you and your ever decreasing gang.       Now we could sit back and let you simply become a footnote in history, but I’m not content with that. I want to see you rectified, but I also want my money . . . and Mr. Zwinge, I’m going to get it. .     Well, do you think we can have grounds for a formal test, perhaps on that weekend in November? Sound fair enough? That should speed things up, don’t you think? If you like, we could schedule next February, or MArch. I don’t care I could move a few appointments around and make time for you and your friends.      I’m not in any special rush. Time money and public interest are all on my side. What have you got? We’ve already seen the rabbit.      So let’s start with your mystery scientist. Let me speak to him on the phone, and he and I can collaborate on how he can see these things for himself.      This weekend.      Is that getting on with it? John Benneth 503-661-4842

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Question:

I have a client that has some very strange and unusual problems with a new account package installation.  They just went to Open Windows and are recieving errors in two modules of the accounting package.           Payroll         PATIMINI – Sector Out Of Range BBx 7         Accounts Recievable     ? Sales Journal                                            Basic Error 47 Line 3062                                            Prog ARPRJ1                                            3062 Let xx$=tf8$(1.26)                                            Substring Out Of Range If any one has any idea of what this just might be it would be greatly appreciated.  OSAS says that it a hardware issue and have no idea what it means…..  which really helps me a hell of a lot. Thanks in advance; Stephen

Response:

What bull.  Substring out of range is an error immediately recognizable to anyone who has written software, particularly in BASIC.  This is a very specific message, and while I haven’t used basic in 20 years (nor would I), there is no question that this error is a programming error.  At the very least, it GIVES THE APPEARANCE of being a bug rather than a "hardware issue".  While you can never rule out the possibility of a damaged module, the second error, in particular would be highly unlikely to result from anything other than a bug. You really need to re-think this package.  Bugs can happen, but this one is amateurish, and their response to it is even more so.  One really wants to question whether it makes sense to build a database within a system that is subject to unexpected stoppage with such BS from the vendor. David Ray, CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a client that has some very strange and unusual problems with a new account package installation.  They just went to Open Windows and are recieving errors in two modules of the accounting package.           Payroll         PATIMINI – Sector Out Of Range BBx 7         Accounts Recievable     ? Sales Journal                                            Basic Error 47 Line 3062                                            Prog ARPRJ1                                            3062 Let xx$=tf8$(1.26)                                            Substring Out Of Range If any one has any idea of what this just might be it would be greatly appreciated.  OSAS says that it a hardware issue and have no idea what it means…..  which really helps me a hell of a lot. Thanks in advance; Stephen

Response:

Question:

This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario:  Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check.  Three weeks later, received notice of surcharge of $175 based on wife’s driving history.  Total now for 6-month policy is $373.  Three weeks after that, received yet another notice of surcharge adding $3,548 toward the 6-month policy.  Total now is $3,921 for 6-month policy (or $7,842 for a year of liability-only auto insurance – no collision/comprehensive coverage).  I immediately went to the insurance company to inquire into the huge premium increase, and when told that it was NOT an error, I immediately cancelled my insurance policy citing that it was ridiculous and that I could rent a car from a rental agency and take out the required coverage for less than what I’m paying just for basic insurance for my OWN car. Two years later: I’m being contacted by a collection agency wanting $1,578 for the length of time (6 weeks) that I had the insurance (they cited the effective date of the surcharges as the date that I took out the policy (24 February 1994) even though the surcharges were dated 21 March and 11 April, respectively — 3 and 6 weeks into the policy coverage), plus they want an additional $344.21 for interest (total demanded: $1922.21). Being that I already paid $198 and they wanted an additional $1,578, this bring the rate to $1,776 for 6 WEEKS of coverage (or $299 per week)! My question is: Do I have a case against this insurance company for providing one quote, receiving my business, then raising the premium to a ridiculous level and making it retroactive 6 weeks prior?  Had I been quoted that amount ($3,921) for a 6-month policy at the very beginning, I’d have certainly taken my business elsewhere!  Is the practice of adding surcharges and backdating them a legal practice, or should I feel comfortable fighting this case in court? Many thanks to any responders.  Please respond via e-mail only. Richard E Sgrignoli

Response:

 Nice critique of my post!  I perhaps overstated the conservative side.

Not to worry.  I probably overstated the risk taking side in my original post. Truth, of course, generally lies somewhere between the extremes.  I have no problem with risk being taken when rewards are balanced.

I’m not sure what you mean by balanced.  If you mean in terms of being balanced against a comprehensive asset allocation structure, risking only that the client can afford to lose without having to go rooting in garbage cans (OK, bit of an exageration here), I couldn’t agree more.  If you mean balanced in the sense of the higher the risk the greater the potential gain, yes.  I wish I know how to do it any other way.  But, don’t we all??   I do  not consider the stock market to be anything more than it is – a daily  auction of securities in which the price fluctuates with expectations of  numerous factors.

With one proviso, that the economy will continue to expand, and the overall market will, therefor, continue to trend upward.  Barring, of course, permanent disaster such as being conquered by Cuba, or Bill C staying in office. (Yuk)   Most of my clients are young and I sell a lot more  term than WL or interest sensitive.  I try to get them to get in the  habit of saving something – anything – but save something every month.  I had customers who lost some pretty heavy money (as a percentage of  their total net assets) in the very late 70s and early 80s.  To say it  did not affect me would be a lie. Every one of them would have made  generous returns had they stuck it out or rather been able to stick it  out.  They lost because they did not have balance and were afraid to  stay any longer.  They bailed out at the time that they should have been  buying, but no one knew when the bottom would be reached.

Never underestimate the ability of people to shoot themselves in the foot. Risk tolerance is always a factor.  Somewhere there is a balance between necessary and unecessary risk.  When you are down in the market, toughing it out is a necessary risk.  Selling is certain loss.  Risk vs reward is OK. Avoiding risk in order to accept an absolutely certain loss is not.   That’s  another story – I had not sold them those funds – they were orphan  clients.  Perhaps I’ve been too strong in my support for safety – time  will tell

I cannot judge that as I know none of your clients.  Your post I took to be a rebuttal of a post you interpreted as too strongly supporting a too risky approach.  Again, as you say, balance is the answer.   BTW my primary business is personal lines P&C. I am curious  to know what kind of expense loads are commonly being placed on the VULs  now.

Well, one of the VULs I currently sell has a front load of 3.5%.  They also collect 2.5% state premium tax, for a total front load of 6%.  One time setting up charges (my term, for simplicity’s sake)  may run as high as $50.00.  A management fee taken out of the cash value fund runs between 1% and 1.8%, depending upon the fund.  The insurance is about as cheap as you can buy, being Annual Renewable Term, and declining in face value month-by-month as the fund grows.  Does this mean the fund has to perform pretty well to offset those costs?  Yup!  But among those funds are Janus’ IDEX Growth II, Fred Alger’s Small Cap Appreciation and American Capitol’s Mid Cap.  I’ll let you look ‘em up.  In addition, the loans against the CV are net interest free, as well as free of income tax.  Index performance will do very nicely, thank you.   What I like in the ULs I’ve seen are the monthly insurance costs  expressed as such.  What I seldom see explained to clients is the  "expected improvement of mortality" that is often illustrated.

Most VULs have a guaranteed mortality that cannot be exceeded.  I thought ULs did too.  Have I misunderstood your comment??   It may  be no worse than anticipated dividends often illustrated with mutual WL  policies but experience with the better companies indicates that they  usually err on the side of safety.  I’m sure that this is not  universally true any more than big UL players overstate their mortality  figures but I read more about the excesses on the UL side.  I also have  never seen UL track (under option B) favorably against a good mutual  plan when premiums were equal.  I should perhaps have been more  definitive on the interest sensitive side since some products are more  predictible than others.  I like to make my proposals from a base of  guaranteed outcomes first with reasonable expectations of whatever the  current and somewhere in between may end up.  APL addresses the premium  paying flexibility needed in most cases. Did I leave anything out?  Rob

How about a VUL that has a fixed subaccount, allowing the client to balance his risk/reward ratio to his liking???

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have not answered my question about taking out a second mortgage on one’s house.  Isn’t that borrowing you own money, by your reasoning? Food for thought.  Rob Rob, Taking out a second mortgage is not borrowing your own money. A second mortgage uses  the equity in your home as collateral againt the money you do borrow. In a cash value policy, you have paid the premium. Part of the premium goes into the  so-called savings. So you pay for insurance, and a form of savings with one premium. Another point, you really never know what the cost of the insurance portion  actually is. Also, after several years (typically 1-5 years) when you actually show a value for the savings portion, you must pay interest on any money taken out. This is the policy loan. So my question is… Why would you save money this way? when you could easily save in some other investment, or account, and not pay interest to use your money if you needed to. Thanks, Alan.

As stated previously, the "cash Value" inside of any insurance policy, be it term (many term policies are required by law to have same but usually only when the term plan exceeds 25 years), whole life, universal life, or whatever, the values do not belong to the policyholder – they belong to the company.  The policies clearly state such!  You know this.  The reason that we are seeing term plans of less than 25 years is so that the companies do not have to return money to the policyholder in the event that he wishes to dump the policy.  The companies (collectivly) have these values in their balance sheets but are not required to disclose the presence of same to the policyholder.  The fact that such is not disclosed to the client does not mean that it does not exist, nor does it mean that a company will not reap a windfall proffit in the event of a policy lapse.  Any term policy other than annual renewable term contains hidden cash values which the companies retain. "Cash value" policies are required to contain nonforfieture clauses because they ae anticipated, in design, to persist beyond 25 years – regardless of the expected premium paying period, which could be as short as one payment.  These contracts obligate the insurer to lend the OWNER of the policy amounts up to (usually) 95% of the nonforfieture value at a contractual rate of interest.  THE CASH VALUE IN ANY POLICY BELONGS TO THE INSURANCE COMPANY UNTIL THE OWNER OF THE POLICY RELEASES (in whole or in part) THE COMPANY FROM THE OBLIGATION OF HONORING (again in whole or part) A DEATH CLAIM. You cannot release the market value of a home (whether paid in or as a result of valuation inflation) without borrowing or selling (surrendering) the property!   I previously used an illustration of a certificate of deposit that has been lost in the shuffle somewhere.  We all could argue the merits, or lack therof for this type of investment, but they seem to remain popular with large numbers of investors.  If you will read a CD contract, you will find that the bank has a legal right to force you to leave the money on deposit for the contractual term.  Most bank will let you bail out if you are willing accept a penalty.  In a lot of cases, when a depositor needs cash, they usually are faced with a decision – take the penalty hit, or borrow, pledging the CD as collateral.  In the latter event, using the reasoning often espoused by BTID crowd, is this CD owner paying interest on his "own" money.  NO! NO! NO!  He is not.  By contract, the money belongs to the bank until maturity!  Telling a potential policyholder that he is borrowing his own money is dishonest. I’m tired of expaining this to people.  It does not make any real difference what anyone buys as long as they buy enough to cover their loss.  If everyone used the same reasoning being argued about the "two types" of life insurance in the purchase of automobiles, we would have a choice of Metros and Fleetwoods which we all know is BS!       When I die, I want to go like my grandpa…in my sleep.  Not screaming … like all the passengers in his car. Rob

Response:

I read your article about Primeamerica.  If I am not mistaken, they group was previously owned by AL Williams.  AL Williams is in fact bad news and he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid scheme. Jim Barbieri

Response:

Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans! As opposed to the great product known as "cash-value"?

I would say as apposed to other term policies.  There are many term policies that are not as good as Primericas, BUT . . . . there are many other term policies that are better and far cheaper than Primerica’s.  So that should give you some idea where Primerica is with regards to their term products. Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks.  You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it.  Rob Multi-level marketing, that’s a good one.  Compare a full line financial services company to one that sells stuff from a catalog! And remember the only people that get rich in MLM are the ones that in at the beginning. Only a small % of people in MLM actually earn enough to support themselves, if they make any money at all it is usually only extra income. I assume that you have "proof" of you allegations?  Were you hired by Primerica at one time?  Are you in the insurance industry?  Or are you just going by some rumor that you overheard?

Chad, one thing you can be CERTAIN about . . . Primerica IS a MLM company just as are many other successful legitimate companies.  There is no reason to be defensive about this fact.  Just find out how an RVP of Primerica gets paid and it’s not hard to see how the MLM works for Primerica.  Is there any wonder why recruit, recruit, recruit is such an important thing for Primarica?  AND, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that.  There is certainly a difference between MLM and a pyramid scheme.  Though it’s hard to distinguish on the surface (in my opinion, anyway). Retards, Ted T. Roberts Independent Insurance Broker/Financial Planner

Response:

 Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing  Damage to the cash-value industry!

I’ll buy that.  Damage by parroting half truths, untruths, and misconceptions that they got from their uplines.  The dangers of getting all your information from one source, especially one that is self serving, are obvious.  It is news to me that Primerica  is prevented from doing business in several states.  Could you be more  specific.  Primerica is not, and has never been banned from doing business in any  state!

OK, as I said, it was news to me.   Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme.  By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product.  Primerica  is certainly legal and they do have products.  Primerica is similiar to several sales organizations. Real estate, auto  dealers ect.

Similar is some respects.  Quite different in others. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t object to those differences.  Admittedly, their term  insurance  is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense  Trust  fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has  the  highest front load allowed by law (8.5%).  The fact that they are being  sued  in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others.  Expensive compared to what? Which CST fund are you refering to?  What states is PFS being sued?

Common Sense Trust, Growth, your best performing CST fund.  Look it up in Morningstar, Forbes, Barron’s.  The front load IS 8.5%, the highest allowed by law.  Your CST II funds are NOT front loaded, they have back loads and 12b! fees totalling 6% or more.  This is worse, it costs a lot more.  I did not assert that they were being suid, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were. I was responding to a post that I feel damned PFS for all the wrong reasons.  (snip) here’s a little information about them. (snipped, a lot of my comments)  but I question the morality of that approach.  You question the morality of the approach? I question the morality of an  agent selling  cash value for the sake of a higher commision check,  instead of selling based on the clients needs!

So do I!  So do we all!!  Your attempts to take the moral high ground are not effective.  You assert that ALL cash value insurance is a rip off, and that anyone who sells it does so only because of the commission, totally without regard to the needs of the client.  Your attacks against the morals of all who disagree with you cast doubt upon your own "high moral standards".  You are incredibly naive, very misinformed, or lacking in any interest in the truth.    Their Network Marketing approach works.  You mean multi level sales.

Is there a difference??  In 1991, when Primerica bought out  the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left  them in droves.  I understand they lost 70% of their business in one  year.  They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach  their  former level.  Just keep your eyes open, and do your homework. Even Greate things will  happen with PFS!

What homework do you suggest that I do???   I am certainly willing to keep my eyes open.  I’ll even agree that vast numbers of part time newbies can cause a lot of term sales to be made.  I don’t agree that that is necessarily in the best interest of the majority of your clients, however.   My data is over a year  old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions  concerned mutual funds.  Your information is definitely "Old"

So enlighten us, sir.  What percentage of sales IS for mutual funds?? 15%? 25%?  You mean you’re only hurting 75% of your clients, who end up with NO insurance, and NO cash/investment? (snip)    I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF  PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER  OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA.  The statements above are just not supported by any FACTS.

So, give us some FACTS to work with, sir.  How many of your PFS clients buy term and invest the difference, and how many buy term and blow the difference??  Do you help more than you hurt??  What are the figures, huh?????  Bland assertions and unqualified denials just don’t cut the mustard.  (snip)   CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very  high front load.  CST has strong performance. Are you refering to any particular fund?

"CST has strong performance."  You keep making totally unsupported statements.  Look at Morningstar (assuming you have any upline who either makes enough or cares enough to buy it), Forbes, Barron’s, etc. The BEST Common Sense Trust fund, the Growth fund, has historically never been able to keep  AVERAGE performance since inception of 12%.  LOOK IT UP.  Inform YOURSELF, before you continue your holy war.  This is NOT strong performance.  It is, by definition, average at best. slightly below average over time.  (snip).. PFS complies with all of the laws governing this business!

Perhaps.  I have heard non securities licensed pfs agents talking about your mutual funds and expounding upon the benefits of BTID.  Do YOU have a securities license??  Should YOU be telling us that CST has strong performance.  You OBVIOUSLY do not know what you’re talking about when you make that statement.  I suspect that you have no securities license, or you wouldn’t make that statement.  It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry,  new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS,  actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people.  WHO?  I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance  False, VUL – the cost of insurance goes up every year!

So does the cost of term.  You merely overcharge for the first years (as does everybody) and undercharge in later years.  Cash value insurance actually does the same, it’s just that they use a longer period of time (life).  However, your comment concerning the cost of insurance in VUL shows your ignorance.  This is rather amusing, given your protestations concerning your mission to educate the public.  In one sense, the cost of insurance does go up every year, as it does with your term.  However the cost to the client does not.  That is because VUL actually does what you claim to do for your clients (and only do for some 11%) and that is to help the client become self insuring.  As the cash value goes up, the amount of insurance that the client buys goes down.  This means that the amount of premium that goes to the insurance costs and the amount that goes to the fund remains essentially constant.  You should really inform yourself about these products before you start "educating" your clients, much less advertise your lack of understanding on this newsgroup. t/    as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica  sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the  form of loans with little or no net interest.  So, having changed  the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results  of that change.  Totally false! Tell me why VUL does not qualify for an IRA?  The fact is that all cash value policies, the cash value is owned by the  company and not the person contributing. WHY?

You give me so much amunition that I hardly know what to shoot down first.  Why ever would you want to qualify VUL for an IRA?? You already have tax deferred growth and income tax free income from the VUL.  The benefits of income tax free income far exceed, for many people, the benefits of tax deferred contributions.  It would be nice to get all three , (tax deduction, tax deferred growth, and income tax free money out) but ya just can’t do that.  Why doesn’t it qualify?? Because that’s the way the law reads.  (You sure you have a securities license???)  You think the cash value is owned by the company, instead of the client??  You probably think that the company keeps the cash value and just pays the inurance too, don’t you???  This is another of the misconceptions with which pfs "educates" their clients.  As the cash value increases, the amount of insurance bought decreases.  (This, incedentally, is how WL works as well as VUL.  I suggest you buy Ben Baldwin’s THE NEW LIFE INSURANCE INVESTMENT ADVISOR, and READ it!!)  So, if the client started out with $200K of insurance, when he gets to the point that he has $100K of cash value, he is only paying for, and only has, $100K of insurance.  HOT FLASH!!!  His death benefit is still $200K, BUT NOT BECAUSE THE INSURANCE KEEPS THE CASH VALUE!! You just don’t understand life insurance.  Now, with VUL, when the cash value exceeds $200K, the IRS requires (in order for this to remain a valid life contract) that some small amount of insurance above and beyond the cash value be maintained.  (Perhaps 10% above)  So, a VUL client with $300K cash value not only gets the $300K paid to the beneficiary, an additional (approx) $30K of insurance is paid.  So, in VUL, the company does NOT keep the cash value and just pay the insurance. In fact, it doesn’t really do that in whole life either. That’s just more of the half truths the pfs agents preach. Oh, by the way.  The above comments about VUL, cash value and death benefit all addressed VUL, Option A.  In Option B, the amount of insurance above the cash value remains constant.  Yes, this costs more, but the client with $100K in cash value would have, as a death benefit, the $200K of insurance and the $100K of cash value paid out to the beneficiary.  Both in the case of Option A, and in Option B, the entire amount is treated by the IRS as an income tax free death benefit.  Estat taxe provisions

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Response:

 Stick to the facts please.  A.L.S.  Alan L. Sheffield

Good advise.  You should try it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Response to SKIBUM: You are making me laugh! VUL is a rip off!! Why was it invented? Please send me the name of the person who has the kind of cash as you have stated, in a VUL policy. ($300K) You act as though a sales charge is bad. You must be more informed on expenses! Why would you ever suggest VUL and not an IRA account, especially in a mutual fund? How do you explain where the cash-value in the first several years in any cash-value plan? Including VUL. I might remind you that you pay taxes on your money only once. So how is VUL a tax advantage? Please educate me. As far as premiums. VUL never goes up? Yes it does. The unpaid portions of the premiums come from the cash value, right. ALL cash value insurance is a form of TERM bundled with a savings account which has some very, very strange banking rules. Oh yea, the company always owns the cash value portion, this is why you must pay interest on a so-called policy loan ( Why borrow your own money???) Send more laughs! A.L.S. Alan L. Sheffield

This kind of discussion seems to go on and on forever but I’m going to inject something regarding taxes.  For what it is worth, and it varies from plan to plan, because a cash value plan is a single contract, the charges for the pure insurance are considered as part of the basis for tax purposes.  In a cashout situation, the p/h would get to deduct all of his costs before any gain is calculated.   Alan, you sent me something that was probably intended for skibum, or did you cc me? You have not answered my question about taking out a second mortgage on one’s house.  Isn’t that borrowing you own money, by your reasoning? Food for thought.  Rob

Response:

The first thing you need to do is contact the insurance company and find out exactly what the reasons were that they increased your premium so much. (Write them down verbatum or ask them for a letter detailing the reason for the misquote.) Once you have that information then we can address the situation.

Response:

Response to SKIBUM: You are making me laugh! VUL is a rip off!! Why was it invented? Please send me the name of the person who has the kind of cash as you have stated, in a VUL policy. ($300K) You act as though a sales charge is bad. You must be more informed on expenses! Why would you ever suggest VUL and not an IRA account, especially in a mutual fund? How do you explain where the cash-value in the first several years in any cash-value plan? Including VUL. I might remind you that you pay taxes on your money only once. So how is VUL a tax advantage? Please educate me. As far as premiums. VUL never goes up? Yes it does. The unpaid portions of the premiums come from the cash value, right. ALL cash value insurance is a form of TERM bundled with a savings account which has some very, very strange banking rules. Oh yea, the company always owns the cash value portion, this is why you must pay interest on a so-called policy loan ( Why borrow your own money???) Send more laughs! A.L.S. Alan L. Sheffield

Response:

(snipped, long discourse concerning my views on Primerica)  Thanks for a well thought out article, even though I do not agree with  all that you have said. (I for one, find variable UL horrible.)  I am  not a big fan of UL period.  Even though I feel that many of its  elements are a little more honest than others.

Horrible??  Some VULs have a fixed, guaranteed subaccount in addition to the equity and bond based funds.  A client can choose any amount, including all (which rather defeats the purpose) of his money into that fixed account.  The client can choose a mix of fixed, conservative, middle and aggressive investment approaches, according to desire. What, by the way, do you have against flexible premium (UL) insurance?? Would you expand upon that, please??  Also, "a little more honest than others"??  Than what others, and in what way?     (snip)   What is true, is that vast numbers of  people are now investing directly or indirectly in the stock market.  Perhaps there is enough $ in the pipeline to drive the stock market to  10,000.

This is a Zero Sum game???  But in time it will slow up.

That, of course, is the only guarantee in the market.  Once the this top is reached,

What makes you think there is such a thing as a "top"?  will the "smart money" still be in the market?  Hell no!  

Wrong, you can make money on a down market too. The smart  money will be making money on shorts!  Whose customers are going to get  soaked?  Not mine!  Think it can’t happen?  Read history!  Think it  can’t happen again?  Read more history!

I think you need to read the history.  EVEN INCLUDING 1929, the average performance/gain of the stock market as a whole has been 10.3% (the last time I checked)  What you forget with your zero sum game/top/ etc, thinking is that the American economy is expanding.  There is no set amount of wealth, that we’re going to run out of.  The Club of Rome and other Malthusians forgot technology in their gloomy preditions of total collapse and the depletion of all natural recourses.  Our oil reserves are greater today than at the time of the Club of Rome predictions….better location….better extraction techniques,,, better efficiency of oil utilizations…..  Yes, the market WILL go down, but it will also go up, as long as we have an expanding economy.   This is a dangerous time.  There is so much optimism that even Joe Lunchbucket thinks he can make  money in the markets, by relying on fund managers

Mutual funds, measured by theS & P 500 have averaged 12% gain for over 60 years.  Ya don’t loose money by buying at the wrong time.  Ya loose it by selling.  And the reason that so many people went broke in 1929 is that they had bought on margin, and couldn’t cover the margin.  Read your history.   Fund managers (good  ones too) were around in October of 1928.  Did they get their investors  out?

No, they held on and made money after the market uptrended.   NO!  Term insurance salesmen were hating life in the 1930s during  the deflation.  Even the old "weekly premium" guys looked like heros  compared to the BTID crowd.  Anyone with a "lousy" whole life policy was  holding gold!  I have no doubt that we will see another collapse, and I  do not want my client’s life insurance chestnuts in the fire when it  comes.  What the heck happened to good old fashioned caution and laying  a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk?

Yeah.  And the thousands who had been paying premiums to First Executive, et. al. sure are happy, right???  So, you think that having your money spread over hundreds of companies in a mutual fund is horrible compared to haveing it all in one insurance company??  I’d agree that having all your money in the market is a bad idea.  I also assert that having all your money in a fixed investment like whole life (or CDs for that matter) is planned poverty.  The idea of laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk is still alive and well.  No one has asserted anything to the contrary…..at least I didn’t.  However WL is no more the only (or even best, necessarily) foundation of that liquidity, than VUL is the only way to risk for possible gain.  I think you took my comments that VUL can, sometimes, outperform BTID (It is just another way to BTID) to be an attack on WL.  I meant no such attack.  My statement was that AS AN INVESTMENT, BTID outperformed WL.  Yes, it is possible to buy very expensive term and poor, highly loaded investments.  But, still, as investments go, WL doesn’t give a very good ROI.  Neither do CDs.  Ya pays fer security, and if that’s what you’re after, well and good.  I’m all for it!!  BTID is a concept that has been around for longer than either of us has  been on the planet.  The problem with it is that customers more often  than not BTSD (buy term and spend the difference).

I believe I said that.  My point was that only some 11% of Primerica’s customers actually invested.  BTW, PFS types out there, If my figures are wrong, I’d be delighted to hear from you.  Please, some supporting documentation, or source of your figures.  No more RDS (Rectal Data Storage) data please.  Spurious attacks on my person and on the industry can left out too.  DATA please….just the facts. Traditional "whole  life" can be and still is a good purchase in most of the clients I see  (sooner or later).

I won’t dispute that.  The same can be said for interest sensitive whole  life.

You like interest sensitive whole life, but you don’t like UL???  Again, it is the flexible premiums you object to??  I think I missed something  I see people being sold the variable product who have NO savings  for short term  financial needs

I also see those same people being sold whole life.  What’s your point? You said you thought VUL was horrible, now, it seems to me, that you object to the timing of the sale????  I would rather hand them the toll free  number for Vangard and advise them to look into Vangard’s index funds  and be their own investment advisor.

For lots of folks, that’s not a bad idea.  I, on the other hand, would rather sell them those mutual funds, since that’s what I do.  I can say from experience that the  old participating WL saved my agency when Bush had us involved in desert  storm and Norfolk was like a ghost town. (The funds I own were not doing  so hot at the time.)  The paid up additional insurance that the  dividends had purchased kept my own program from failing.

A well funded VUL can achieve the same thing.  If you stop the premiums too soon, of course, not.  That’s one of the main risks of VUL, to which I have alluded in prior posts.    (snip) no one , currently makes it economically rewarding enough for  bright people to see a career in our field.

Well, that is one of the main argument that the MLMers use to support the MLM concept.  It IS possible in an MLM, just damn unlikely.  Maybe one in 10,000 MLMers make really big bucks, but there are those who do.  Their point is that no employees make that kind of money.  Damn few insurance salesmen either.  What’s the natinal average, 1 sale a week and maybe $30K?  I find little to like about MLM because I have never seen a MLM plan  that was not conceived on the idea that the "real" money is made off the  sales of "downline" people and not off personal production which I think  is where it has to be. I don’t think we disagree on this one.

Well, actually we don’t agree.  You’ve described every sales organization I ever saw.  Do the sales managers, general manager, and owner of your local Ford dealer operate any differently??  Does your insurance company?? The whole concept of "sales management" is that the manager "facilitates" and the salesmen sell.  I don’t see any difference.  My major objection to most MLM organizations is that they sell things to each other at different prices.  You have a whole heirarchy of dealers, promoters, executives, super stars, whatever, recuriting "newbies".  The idea is that they sell the "newbie" his "stock" of vitamens, filters, whatever, and everybody up the line gets a cut of that wholesale transaction.  In the unlikely event that the newbie retails his stock to the public, nobody makes a dime, except the newbie.  So, where’s the "upline" incentive to help the newbie retail his product????  No, they might help him wholesale to more newbies, but nobody cares if he retails.  Some 80 to 85% never order any more stock. So, everybody is out looking for new newbies to make those wholesale transactions that are the way they get paid.  The vast majority of MLM "dealers" are not dealers, they are customers, they just haven’t figured that out.  BTW, bringing out new products is a good way to get more money out of all those dealer/customers, too.  That’s my objection to standard MLM.  As practiced by Primerica, I don’t object to the structure. I do object to the fact that thousands of untrained, brainwashed, part time agents, most of whom last only a few months (if that) are unleashed upon an unwary public by that method.  Their "one size fits all" philosophy may be easy to grasp, in a superficial way, but it hurts a lot more people than it helps, as I said in my earlier post.  It sounds cynical, but I think too many of the companies are run by  lawyers and bean counters who have never sold a policy to anyone (many  would consider it beneath them and hold their sales force in contempt)  and have no concept what goes on in the "field"

Which is, by the way, essentially, the same argument you used against MLM.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I don’t mean to pound on you.  Based upon your response, you are the  only other responder (that I have seen) to this forum who actually  showed some real knowledge of our business and some experience.  We both

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Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario:  Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check.  Three weeks later, Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area.  Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates.  They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them.  I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop What a joke!  The average career of a Primerica "insurance expert" is about 30 days!  It takes about that long for them to be exposed to the real world – which is usually just after they have alienated every friend and family member they have trying to get them to buy into the stupid pyramid scheme (make lots of money off someone else even more stupid than you are).  

So I guess that Prudential, Merill Lynch, Century 21, and any other Financial Service, Insurance, or Real Estate office is a pyramid scheme as well?  Apparently you have no idea how the "real world" works.  Primerica runs its offices the same way as anyone else, with one exception, they do not advertise in the newspaper for job openings.  They hire based on personal recommendations.  BTW, if someone is not interested then they are not interested, the office I was contacted by does not try to pressure people. For your information a pyramid is when you give money to someone and do not get anything in return.  It is only a pyramid when no product, service, or information is given in return for the money. Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans!

As opposed to the great product known as "cash-value"? Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks.  You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it.  Rob

Multi-level marketing, that’s a good one.  Compare a full line financial services company to one that sells stuff from a catalog! And remember the only people that get rich in MLM are the ones that in at the beginning. Only a small % of people in MLM actually earn enough to support themselves, if they make any money at all it is usually only extra income. I assume that you have "proof" of you allegations?  Were you hired by Primerica at one time?  Are you in the insurance industry?  Or are you just going by some rumor that you overheard? —

Response:

 I read your article about Primeamerica.  If I am not mistaken, they group  was previously owned by AL Williams.  AL Williams is in fact bad news and  he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being  sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid  scheme.  Jim Barbieri

Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing, I have to take exception to a couple of your comments.  It is news to me that Primerica is prevented from doing business in several states.  Could you be more specific.  If you’re right, it’s good amunition.  If you’re wrong, you shouldn’t be saying it on the open net.  Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product.  Primerica is certainly legal and they do have products.  Admittedly, their term insurance is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense Trust fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has the highest front load allowed by law (8.5%).  The fact that they are being sued in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others. I am not, nor have I ever been (nor will I) a Primerica agent.  However, as I understand it, here’s a little information about them. A L WMS began in the ’70s, pushing the undenyable position that buy term and investing the difference provided more insurance coverage and greater investment performance than did traditional Whole Life (WL), still does, for that matter.  They were quite successful and became the largest seller of term insurance in the world.  They were, quite literally, a driving force in changing the industry.  Because they tended to specialize in replacing already extant WL, usually calling it a ripoff and questioning the morals of the agent who originally sold it, they made a lot of enemies.  Their tactics may have been legal, but I question the morality of that approach. Their Network Marketing approach works.  Much as we deplore such organizations as AMWAY, et. al. many of them are mutli billion dollar enterprizes.  Perhaps the individual agent most often fails to make any money, to speak of, as a marketing strategy Network Marketing has become the strategy of the 90s and very many Fortune 500 companies are lineing up to get into it.  At one time A L WMS had over 200,000 agents, 35,000 of which also had securities licenses.  (There-in lies a problem that I will address later).  In 1991, when Primerica bought out the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left them in droves.  I understand they lost 70% of their business in one year.  They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach their former level. Back to the problem I mentioned above.  Only 35K out of 200K had securities licenses.  That’s what, 17 and a half percent?  Now, with 200 thousand people (most part time and ill trained) out preaching the benefits of buy term, invest the difference (BTID) and only 35,000 prepared to sell the investment, guess what happens.  Right!! A lot more term got sold than did mutual funds.  My data is over a year old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions concerned mutual funds.   Given that Primerica specializes in replacing WL, then we see that the following happens.         1.  The client already posesses a WL policy that is permanent insurance with a cash value (arguably low, but present)         2.  89% replace that permanent, cash value with term only.         3.  15, 20, or 25 years later (depending upon the length of the term contract) the client has no insurance (can’t afford to renew, even if he/she IS insurable) and NO cash value.         4.  Had the client kept the WL contract (as bad as the Primerica rep will assert that it is) he/she would STILL have insurance, and WOULD HAVE a cash value, however little. I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA. Admittedly, the few who actually set up an investment, and stayed with it, are better off than with traditional WL.  Few did, and the majority got sold CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very high front load. Additional thoughts; With over 80% of it’s agents insurance licensed only, yet out preaching the benefits of BTID, I question the legality of the system.  If what that agent says in any way can be construed as a offer to sell a security, and that agent has no security license, heavy fines and even jail terms are possible. It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry, new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS, actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people.  I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance, as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the form of loans with little or no net interest.  So, having changed the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results of that change. Hope this of of some use to you…. Cheers, Skibum

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario:  Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check.  Three weeks later, Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area.  Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates.  They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them.  I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop

What a joke!  The average career of a Primerica "insurance expert" is about 30 days!  It takes about that long for them to be exposed to the real world – which is usually just after they have alienated every friend and family member they have trying to get them to buy into the stupid pyramid scheme (make lots of money off someone else even more stupid than you are).  Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans!  Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks.  You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it.  Rob

Response:

 Response to SKIBUM:  You are making me laugh!  VUL is a rip off!! Why was it invented? Please send me the name of the  person who has the kind of cash as you have stated, in a VUL policy.  ($300K)

Your post is a joke.  You are a joke.  I have repeatedly asked you for specifics.  I have asked you to explain your comments.  I have asked you what provisions of your products you feel are superior to those of other companies.  I tried to explain to you what VUL is, and how it works.  Your either did not read my post, did not understand it, or are so blinded by what you "know" that all other data is ignored. VUL is a ripoff?????  You have no idea what VUL is, or how it works. You have repeatedly proved that with your silly assertations.  You don’t even know how Whole Life works, and I doubt that you know your own term works.  You seem to think that because your term has a guaranteed upper limit beyond which the premium cannot be raised, means that the premium is guaranteed.  Your CURRENT premium is not guaranteed beyond the first year.  Past the first year, that premium can be raised at will.   I will try to explain VUL so simply that even you can understand it.  VUL is a way to buy term, and invest the difference…..in something that is income tax free.  There are, in most VULs, some 10 to 20 different underlying funds in which the client can invest.  Among the funds in various VULs are Fidility funds, Fortis funds, Janus/IDEX funds, Fred Alger Small Cap Appreciation…….ranging from money market funds to very aggressive growth funds.  The premiums are NOT tax deductable.  The funds, however, grow tax deferred (that means you don’t pay tax on the growth). Money you take out of the VUL, in the form of (often) zero net interest, or very low (1 to 2%) loans, are free of income tax. For some people, the benefit of income tax free income far exceeds the benefit of tax deductable contributions.   So, if I can put the same amount of money in a VUL, get insurance at a cost per thousand significantly lower than you pay for it with PFS, get investments that out perform CST Growth by 4 to 6%, and get 20%, or much better, more after tax income than with your BTID, this, you think is a ripoff???? You think ending up with $300K after 25 to 35 years is a lot???  I repeat, do you have a securities license???  I’ve asked you this before.  Do you have a right to an opinion???  You act as though a sales charge is bad. You must be more informed on  expenses!

You refer, of course, to my comments about Common (NON)Sense Trust having an 8.5% front load, the highest allowed by law.  No, I don’t think sales charges are bad.  I do, however, think that 8.5% front load for an average to below average performing fund (CST Growth, the BEST CST fund) is, you should pardon the expression, a ripoff.  20th Century Ultra, a no load has beat the S & P average of 12% over the long haul by 5 percentage points.  4 to 5% load is about the highest that most funds charge.  This is all public data.  You ought to read some, sometime.  Why would you ever suggest VUL and not an IRA account, especially in a  mutual fund?

Again, I’ve already told you a couple of times.  An IRA lets you deduct contributions (well, some of the people) from current income, and gives you tax deferred growth.  After age 59 and a half, all withdrawals are taxed as normal income in the year in which they are taken.  (Do I really have to explain this???  Do you have a securities license??)  VULs do not qualify for tax deductable contributions.  (What the hell, I’ve got people who’re putting $1000/mo into a VUL…couldn’t deduct that in an IRA either….over 2000 Dollars…single guy)  A VUL does, however qualify for tax deferred growth.  When the money is taken out of the VUL it is free of income tax.  You pay the cost of the insurance in order to avoid the cost of the income tax.  STRICTLY ANALYZED AS INVESTMENTS, a VUL will beat an IRA in some cases, especially for younger, healthier clients.  In those cases, you could consider the insurance of the VUL as a freebie.  However, we’ve been discussing BTID.  If the individual is older, or not a good risk, the cost of the VUL and concomittant insurance will exceed the value of the tax break.  But, the cost of the term in BTID would also be very high and the VUL might well outperform the BTID.  Sometimes is does, sometimes it doesn’t.  Ya gotta crunch the numbers.  So, why would I ever suggest VUL??? Because it works better, sometimes.  Sometimes it doesn’t, so I sell him term (if he wants insurance) and a good mutual fund (consistant with his risk tolerance, needs, etc).  You see, Alan, most of the people you’ve been blathering at sell more term than you do.  We BTID too, and we do it better, with far cheaper, better products.  How do you explain where the cash-value in the first several years in any  cash-value plan? Including VUL.

That’s pretty easy.  I say, "See, here it is."  Every VUL I ever saw had cash value in the first year.  I will admit that I haven’t seen them all. But if I’d seen one, I’ve seen more than you have.  If you had, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.  I might remind you that you pay taxes on your money only once. So how is  VUL a tax advantage? Please educate me.

Actually, money is taxed several times. I won’t even argue the point.  Go read something….anything.  How is VUL a tax advantage compared to what??  Compared to an IRA.  (Anybody notice the rules here??  It seems to be that I’m trying to compare VUL to BTID, and the PFSers always want to just compare the investment. Oh, well)  Alan, as I’ve stated before, and freely admit.  it is not ALWAYS an advantage compared to an IRA. Compared to your term and CST it has lots of advantages for a great many people…again not all.  For some people, a good index fund with it’s tax advantage (get somebody else to explain distributions, capital gains, etc.) is better.  I never said it was.  You said it is a ripoff.  It is not. Overcharging (8.5% front load) for average to below average (<12%) performing mutual funds……now THAT might be a ripoff….  As far as premiums. VUL never goes up? Yes it does. The unpaid portions of  the premiums come from the cash value, right.

Again, Alan, you didn’t read my posting, you didn’t understand it, or you are blinded by what you "know" because your upline told you so.  Let’s be more specific.  Yes, the cost per thousand of the Annual Renewable Term in a VUL goes up.  However, since the amount of insurance bought goes down as the cash value goes up, the "cost of insurance" , or, the amount of premium dollar going toward insurance, stays roughly the same.  Is this so difficult to understand???  "Unpaid portions of the premiums"???  What the hell are you talking about????  You mean if the client quits paying premiums??  Yes, that’s one of the things that can happen.  If it happens to PFS, you cancell the policy.  In the outyears, when the cash value has outstripped the original death benefit level, the client has retired and no longer pays premiums, yes the cost of the small amount of insurance required by the IRS will come out of the cash value.  It will be very little, comparitively speaking.  ALL cash value insurance is a form of TERM bundled with a savings account  which has some very, very strange banking rules.

There is truth in the first part of your statement.  Mostly misconception in the second part.  I will address that in response to one of your next comments.  Oh yea, the company always owns the cash value portion, this is why you  must pay interest on a so-called policy loan ( Why borrow your own  money???)

OK,,,,,this is one of the big contradictions in the PFS party line.  On the one hand, pfsers maintain that the company owns the cash value.  On the other hand, they whine about paying interest on "your own money".  Which is it, Alan?  Do you think the company owns the cash value and rips you off by not paying the death benefit AND the cash value (I debunked that in my last post)  Or, do you think that you own it and the company is ripping you off by making you pay interest to borrow your own money.  Come on, Alan.  You can’t have it both ways. Actually  YOU own the cash value.  However, in cash value insurance, as the cash value increases, the amound of insurance being bought decreases.  In the case of whole life, the two lines don’t cross, and the death benefit paid out remains the same.  That death benefit is, however, a mixture of insurance and cash value.  The best explanation of this can be found in Ben Baldwin’s THE NEW LIFE INSURANCE INVESTMENT GUIDE,  Ch 4, pgs 37 thru 40.  In the case of variable life the cash value usually will ultimately exceed the original death benefit and that’s where the IRS "corridor" of insurance comes in, making the death benefit mixture of cash value and insurance exceed the cash value by a small percentage (10%??)  Both the cash value and the insurance are paid, again.  I keep explaining this to you. Now we get to the "peculiar banking practices"  ( I also explained this in my last post)  You just don’t get it, do you???  In VUL, some of the cash value is removed to an escrow account.  The escrow account is then used as collateral, for a loan from another source (usually the insurance company’s general account).  Escrow loans have been normal practice for a hell of a long time.  There is little, or no, net interest charged.  Whole life works differently, and usually charges higher interest. I won’t go into it. Again, I ask you, let’s see something beyond bland assertations.  Things are not true just because you say them.  Don’t just repeat your misapprehensions, WHERE’S THE BEEF???  WHAT is so great about CST and Smith Barney.  You say they’re "strong".  What is your source? Compared to what, bond funds???   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Send more laughs!

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Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I read your article about Primeamerica.  If I am not mistaken, they group  was previously owned by AL Williams.  AL Williams is in fact bad news and  he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being  sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid  scheme.  Jim Barbieri Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing

Damage to the cash-value industry! I have to take exception to a couple of your comments.  It is news to me that Primerica is prevented from doing business in several states.  Could you be more specific.  If you’re right, it’s good amunition.  If you’re wrong, you shouldn’t be saying it on the open net.

Primerica is not, and has never been banned from doing business in any state! Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product. Primerica is certainly legal and they do have products.

Primerica is similiar to several sales organizations. Real estate, auto dealers ect. Admittedly, their term insurance is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense Trust fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has the highest front load allowed by law (8.5%).  The fact that they are being sued in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others.

Expensive compared to what? Which CST fund are you refering to? What states is PFS being sued? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am not, nor have I ever been (nor will I) a Primerica agent.  However, as I understand it, here’s a little information about them. A L WMS began in the ’70s, pushing the undenyable position that buy term and investing the difference provided more insurance coverage and greater investment performance than did traditional Whole Life (WL), still does, for that matter.  They were quite successful and became the largest seller of term insurance in the world.  They were, quite literally, a driving force in changing the industry.  Because they tended to specialize in replacing already extant WL, usually calling it a ripoff and questioning the morals of the agent who originally sold it, they made a lot of enemies.  Their tactics may have been legal, but I question the morality of that approach.

You question the morality of the approach? I question the morality of an agent selling  cash value for the sake of a higher commision check, instead of selling based on the clients needs! Their Network Marketing approach works.

You mean multi level sales. Much as we deplore such organizations as AMWAY, et. al. many of them are mutli billion dollar enterprizes.  Perhaps the individual agent most often fails to make any money, to speak of, as a marketing strategy Network Marketing has become the strategy of the 90s and very many Fortune 500 companies are lineing up to get into it.  At one time A L WMS had over 200,000 agents, 35,000 of which also had securities licenses.  (There-in lies a problem that I will address later).  In 1991, when Primerica bought out the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left them in droves.  I understand they lost 70% of their business in one year.  They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach their former level.

Just keep your eyes open, and do your homework. Even Greate things will happen with PFS! Back to the problem I mentioned above.  Only 35K out of 200K had securities licenses.  That’s what, 17 and a half percent?  Now, with 200 thousand people (most part time and ill trained) out preaching the benefits of buy term, invest the difference (BTID) and only 35,000 prepared to sell the investment, guess what happens.  Right!! A lot more term got sold than did mutual funds.  My data is over a year old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions concerned mutual funds.

Your information is definitely "Old"   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Given that Primerica specializes in replacing WL, then we see that the following happens.    1.  The client already posesses a WL policy that is permanent insurance with a cash value (arguably low, but present)    2.  89% replace that permanent, cash value with term only.    3.  15, 20, or 25 years later (depending upon the length of the term contract) the client has no insurance (can’t afford to renew, even if he/she IS insurable) and NO cash value.    4.  Had the client kept the WL contract (as bad as the Primerica rep will assert that it is) he/she would STILL have insurance, and WOULD HAVE a cash value, however little. I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA.

The statements above are just not supported by any FACTS. Admittedly, the few who actually set up an investment, and stayed with it, are better off than with traditional WL.  Few did, and the majority got sold CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very high front load.

CST has strong performance. Are you refering to any particular fund? Additional thoughts; With over 80% of it’s agents insurance licensed only, yet out preaching the benefits of BTID, I question the legality of the system.  If what that agent says in any way can be construed as a offer to sell a security, and that agent has no security license, heavy fines and even jail terms are possible.

Thats true, but PFS complies with all of the laws governing this business! It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry, new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS, actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people.

WHO? I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance

False, VUL – the cost of insurance goes up every year! as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the form of loans with little or no net interest.  So, having changed the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results of that change.

Totally false! Tell me why VUL does not qualify for an IRA? The fact is that all cash value policies, the cash value is owned by the company and not the person contributing. WHY? Hope this of of some use to you…. Cheers, Skibum

Cheers, Alan L. Sheffield Alan L. Sheffield

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Great Debate, but one in which both sides are skewing their stuff. 1) ALW did much for the industry, changed it in fact,  people first need the amount of protection right for their families and their wants, cash value or term, the agent that does this for his clients did the best possible thing.  I just paid a death benefit on a $100,000 whole life policy, converted to whole life 4 years ago. the man was 59 when he died. He had a permanent need, for his business. so whole life.  He would have spent less on the term. No one knew he would die early. He could afford the 100K to match the permanent need he had.  It was the best decision at the time.  He had term before the need was considered permanent. 2)  Most people , investments or no, want to keep some life insurance in force for their life, more so those with fewer assets.The level terms are great and serve a purpose, but can short change people in later years. Modified UL’s often can offer a way to bridge the gap, and offer a term with a permanent option later on. 3)  There was indeed a time when MILICO’s operations were suspended in Tennessee, Texas, and at least one other state.  The COMMON SENSE TERM book was cited in the Texas case,  Primamerica alienated much of its field force, and created NMA and WMA as competion in the process. These orgs have replaced substantial pfs term with modified UL. and that of a great many other companies. 4) Multi-level works, can be done honestly and well. PFS failed in that respect.  The move for PFS and its offshoots of ex ALW management has been decidedly toward the traditional, in reputation. It is a far cry from the agressive on size fits all approach.   5) It all comes down to what fits the clients’ needs. Not one size but many as there are many clients.  Low budget, High budget, investment, estate planning, business.  How an agent meet those needs is his measure. Glad to add my two bits. Keith

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Nice critique of my post!  I perhaps overstated the conservative side. I have no problem with risk being taken when rewards are balanced.  I do not consider the stock market to be anything more than it is – a daily auction of securities in which the price fluctuates with expectations of numerous factors.  Most of my clients are young and I sell a lot more term than WL or interest sensitive.  I try to get them to get in the habit of saving something – anything – but save something every month. I had customers who lost some pretty heavy money (as a percentage of their total net assets) in the very late 70s and early 80s.  To say it did not affect me would be a lie. Every one of them would have made generous returns had they stuck it out or rather been able to stick it out.  They lost because they did not have balance and were afraid to stay any longer.  They bailed out at the time that they should have been buying, but no one knew when the bottom would be reached.  That’s another story – I had not sold them those funds – they were orphan clients.  Perhaps I’ve been too strong in my support for safety – time will tell.  BTW my primary business is personal lines P&C. I am curious to know what kind of expense loads are commonly being placed on the VULs now.  What I like in the ULs I’ve seen are the monthly insurance costs expressed as such.  What I seldom see explained to clients is the "expected improvement of mortality" that is often illustrated.  It may be no worse than anticipated dividends often illustrated with mutual WL policies but experience with the better companies indicates that they usually err on the side of safety.  I’m sure that this is not universally true any more than big UL players overstate their mortality figures but I read more about the excesses on the UL side.  I also have never seen UL track (under option B) favorably against a good mutual plan when premiums were equal.  I should perhaps have been more definitive on the interest sensitive side since some products are more predictible than others.  I like to make my proposals from a base of guaranteed outcomes first with reasonable expectations of whatever the current and somewhere in between may end up.  APL addresses the premium paying flexibility needed in most cases. Did I leave anything out? Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snipped, long discourse concerning my views on Primerica)  Thanks for a well thought out article, even though I do not agree with  all that you have said. (I for one, find variable UL horrible.)  I am  not a big fan of UL period.  Even though I feel that many of its  elements are a little more honest than others. Horrible??  Some VULs have a fixed, guaranteed subaccount in addition to the equity and bond based funds.  A client can choose any amount, including all (which rather defeats the purpose) of his money into that fixed account.  The client can choose a mix of fixed, conservative, middle and aggressive investment approaches, according to desire. What, by the way, do you have against flexible premium (UL) insurance?? Would you expand upon that, please??  Also, "a little more honest than others"??  Than what others, and in what way?     (snip)   What is true, is that vast numbers of  people are now investing directly or indirectly in the stock market.  Perhaps there is enough $ in the pipeline to drive the stock market to  10,000. This is a Zero Sum game???  But in time it will slow up. That, of course, is the only guarantee in the market.  Once the this top is reached, What makes you think there is such a thing as a "top"?  will the "smart money" still be in the market?  Hell no! Wrong, you can make money on a down market too. The smart  money will be making money on shorts!  Whose customers are going to get  soaked?  Not mine!  Think it can’t happen?  Read history!  Think it  can’t happen again?  Read more history! I think you need to read the history.  EVEN INCLUDING 1929, the average performance/gain of the stock market as a whole has been 10.3% (the last time I checked)  What you forget with your zero sum game/top/ etc, thinking is that the American economy is expanding.  There is no set amount of wealth, that we’re going to run out of.  The Club of Rome and other Malthusians forgot technology in their gloomy preditions of total collapse and the depletion of all natural recourses.  Our oil reserves are greater today than at the time of the Club of Rome predictions….better location….better extraction techniques,,, better efficiency of oil utilizations…..  Yes, the market WILL go down, but it will also go up, as long as we have an expanding economy.   This is a dangerous time.  There is so much optimism that even Joe Lunchbucket thinks he can make  money in the markets, by relying on fund managers Mutual funds, measured by theS & P 500 have averaged 12% gain for over 60 years.  Ya don’t loose money by buying at the wrong time.  Ya loose it by selling.  And the reason that so many people went broke in 1929 is that they had bought on margin, and couldn’t cover the margin.  Read your history.   Fund managers (good  ones too) were around in October of 1928.  Did they get their investors  out? No, they held on and made money after the market uptrended.   NO!  Term insurance salesmen were hating life in the 1930s during  the deflation.  Even the old "weekly premium" guys looked like heros  compared to the BTID crowd.  Anyone with a "lousy" whole life policy was  holding gold!  I have no doubt that we will see another collapse, and I  do not want my client’s life insurance chestnuts in the fire when it  comes.  What the heck happened to good old fashioned caution and laying  a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk? Yeah.  And the thousands who had been paying premiums to First Executive, et. al. sure are happy, right???  So, you think that having your money spread over hundreds of companies in a mutual fund is horrible compared to haveing it all in one insurance company??  I’d agree that having all your money in the market is a bad idea.  I also assert that having all your money in a fixed investment like whole life (or CDs for that matter) is planned poverty.  The idea of laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk is still alive and well.  No one has asserted anything to the contrary…..at least I didn’t.  However WL is no more the only (or even best, necessarily) foundation of that liquidity, than VUL is the only way to risk for possible gain.  I think you took my comments that VUL can, sometimes, outperform BTID (It is just another way to BTID) to be an attack on WL.  I meant no such attack.  My statement was that AS AN INVESTMENT, BTID outperformed WL.  Yes, it is possible to buy very expensive term and poor, highly loaded investments.  But, still, as investments go, WL doesn’t give a very good ROI.  Neither do CDs.  Ya pays fer security, and if that’s what you’re after, well and good.  I’m all for it!!  BTID is a concept that has been around for longer than either of us has  been on the planet.  The problem with it is that customers more often  than not BTSD (buy term and spend the difference). I believe I said that.  My point was that only some 11% of Primerica’s customers actually invested.  BTW, PFS types out there, If my figures are wrong, I’d be delighted to hear from you.  Please, some supporting documentation, or source of your figures.  No more RDS (Rectal Data Storage) data please.  Spurious attacks on my person and on the industry can left out too.  DATA please….just the facts. Traditional "whole  life" can be and still is a good purchase in most of the clients I see  (sooner or later). I won’t dispute that.  The same can be said for interest sensitive whole  life. You like interest sensitive whole life, but you don’t like UL???  Again, it is the flexible premiums you object to??  I think I missed something  I see people being sold the variable product who have NO savings  for short term  financial needs I also see those same people being sold whole life.  What’s your point? You said you thought VUL was horrible, now, it seems to me, that you object to the timing of the sale????  I would rather hand them the toll free  number for Vangard and advise them to look into Vangard’s index funds  and be their own investment advisor. For lots of folks, that’s not a bad idea.  I, on the other hand, would rather sell them those mutual funds, since that’s what I do.  I can say from experience that the  old participating WL saved my agency when Bush had us involved in desert  storm and Norfolk was like a ghost town. (The funds I own were not doing  so hot at the time.)  The paid up additional insurance that the  dividends had purchased kept my own program from failing. A well funded VUL can achieve the same thing.  If you stop the premiums too soon, of course, not.  That’s one of the main risks of VUL, to which I have alluded in prior posts.  (snip) no one , currently makes it economically rewarding enough for  bright people to see a career in our field. Well, that is one of the main argument that the MLMers use to support the MLM concept.  It IS possible in an MLM, just damn unlikely.  Maybe one in 10,000 MLMers make really big bucks, but there are those who do.  Their point is that no employees make that kind of money.  Damn few insurance salesmen either.  What’s the natinal average, 1 sale a week and maybe $30K?  I find little to like about MLM because I

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You have not answered my question about taking out a second mortgage on one’s house.  Isn’t that borrowing you own money, by your reasoning? Food for thought.  Rob

Rob, Taking out a second mortgage is not borrowing your own money. A second mortgage uses  the equity in your home as collateral againt the money you do borrow. In a cash value policy, you have paid the premium. Part of the premium goes into the  so-called savings. So you pay for insurance, and a form of savings with one premium. Another point, you really never know what the cost of the insurance portion  actually is. Also, after several years (typically 1-5 years) when you actually show a value for the savings portion, you must pay interest on any money taken out. This is the policy loan. So my question is… Why would you save money this way? when you could easily save in some other investment, or account, and not pay interest to use your money if you needed to. Thanks, Alan. Alan L. Sheffield

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Jim, (Primerica not Primeamerica for future reference) Your comments are unfounded, about A.L. Williams. Travelers Group (Formerly Primerica Corporation) bought A.L. Williams back in 1990. FYI – Primerica Financial Services has never been prevented from doing business in any state. Don’t take my word for it, go check with your state! Oh, by the way, Art Williams is one of the greatest leaders in American History. I reccomend that you go pick up one of his books or even attend one of his seminars. You may learn something. I can foward you information about his seminars, and training if you wish. As far as Primerica offering P&C, We do a great job! We offer our P&C through Travelers. We are doing things that no other company would consider. You should have a quote done on you through your local PFS office, We may save you some money there, or offer greater value for your money. Sincerely, Alan L. Sheffield

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Jim, Your comments are unfounded, about A.L. Williams. Travelers Group (Formerly Primerica Corporation) bought A.L. Williams back in 1990.

If ignorance is bliss, you must be a very happy camper.   A.L. Williams and his slash and burn techniques, have ripped a ton of people’s life savings. As a salesperson for just one of the 5,500 insurance companies in America you don’t have the first clue about what you are talking about other than being a trained robot who wantonly sings the same song about how good A.L.Williams is…. What you don’t know and can’t tell anyone is the crucial information that consumer need to make an INTELLIGENT not emotional choice when conducting Risk Management activities . If you want to learn about the business you are in go to your public library and get a copy of THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY – INSURANCE  by Ron If you want to learn how to intelligently purchase insurance go to http:www.ThePlan.com then click on THE QUALITY INFORMATION INSTITUTE.   As far as property owners insurance is concerned, how many instruction books on how to collect money in the form of a legitimate claim  does A.L. Williams and Travelers deliver with those thousands of contracts.   NOT ONE.  The facts are that your claims adjusters are TRAINED to treat consumers who suffer a loss as if they are criminals.  SHAME on TRAVELERS. When Christ said "Forgive them father, for they do not know what they do" he must have been talking about insurance salespeople who are brainwashed. Oh, by the way, Art Williams is one of the greatest leaders in American History. I reccomend that you go pick up one of his books or even attend one of his seminars. You may learn something. I can foward you information about his seminars, and training if you wish.

Training is correct.  Do you know the difference between training and education? We train animals and servants to do our bidding. We educate people  to make intelligent decisions. As far as Primerica offering P&C, We do a great job! We offer our P&C through Travelers. We are doing things that no other company would consider. You should have a quote done on you through your local PFS office, We may save you some money there, or offer greater value for your money.

As a documented expert in Crisis management and financial recovery from insurance  companies, I would NOT do business with Travelers if they were giving their insurance away for FREE. I welcome any questions and comments on the above matter or any legitimate Risk Management activities Ron Alford   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sincerely, Alan L. Sheffield

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Stick to the facts please. A.L.S. Alan L. Sheffield

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I read your article about Primeamerica.  If I am not mistaken, they group  was previously owned by AL Williams.  AL Williams is in fact bad news and  he is prevented from doing business in several states. He is also being  sued in several states and that organization is certainly a pyramid  scheme.  Jim Barbieri Much as I oppose the damage I see Primerica doing, I have to take exception to a couple of your comments.  It is news to me that Primerica is prevented from doing business in several states.  Could you be more specific.  If you’re right, it’s good amunition.  If you’re wrong, you shouldn’t be saying it on the open net.  Secondly, Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. By definition, pyramid schemes are illegal, and have no product.  Primerica is certainly legal and they do have products.  Admittedly, their term insurance is quite expensive, and they sell a lot of their in-house Common Sense Trust fund (CST) which, on average, doesn’t perform with the S & P 500 and has the highest front load allowed by law (8.5%).  The fact that they are being sued in several states puts them in the same boat with Pru and others. I am not, nor have I ever been (nor will I) a Primerica agent.  However, as I understand it, here’s a little information about them. A L WMS began in the ’70s, pushing the undenyable position that buy term and investing the difference provided more insurance coverage and greater investment performance than did traditional Whole Life (WL), still does, for that matter.  They were quite successful and became the largest seller of term insurance in the world.  They were, quite literally, a driving force in changing the industry.  Because they tended to specialize in replacing already extant WL, usually calling it a ripoff and questioning the morals of the agent who originally sold it, they made a lot of enemies.  Their tactics may have been legal, but I question the morality of that approach. Their Network Marketing approach works.  Much as we deplore such organizations as AMWAY, et. al. many of them are mutli billion dollar enterprizes.  Perhaps the individual agent most often fails to make any money, to speak of, as a marketing strategy Network Marketing has become the strategy of the 90s and very many Fortune 500 companies are lineing up to get into it.  At one time A L WMS had over 200,000 agents, 35,000 of which also had securities licenses.  (There-in lies a problem that I will address later).  In 1991, when Primerica bought out the coach (A. L. himself) they changed the pay plan and people left them in droves.  I understand they lost 70% of their business in one year.  They’re fighting back, but I don’t think they’ll ever approach their former level. Back to the problem I mentioned above.  Only 35K out of 200K had securities licenses.  That’s what, 17 and a half percent?  Now, with 200 thousand people (most part time and ill trained) out preaching the benefits of buy term, invest the difference (BTID) and only 35,000 prepared to sell the investment, guess what happens.  Right!! A lot more term got sold than did mutual funds.  My data is over a year old, but that data indicated that only 11% of all Primerica transactions concerned mutual funds. Given that Primerica specializes in replacing WL, then we see that the following happens.         1.  The client already posesses a WL policy that is permanent insurance with a cash value (arguably low, but present)         2.  89% replace that permanent, cash value with term only.         3.  15, 20, or 25 years later (depending upon the length of the term contract) the client has no insurance (can’t afford to renew, even if he/she IS insurable) and NO cash value.         4.  Had the client kept the WL contract (as bad as the Primerica rep will assert that it is) he/she would STILL have insurance, and WOULD HAVE a cash value, however little. I can only conclude from the above, that approximately 89% OF PRIMERICA’S CLIENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF HAD THEY NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA. Admittedly, the few who actually set up an investment, and stayed with it, are better off than with traditional WL.  Few did, and the majority got sold CST with it’s relatively poor performance and very high front load. Additional thoughts; With over 80% of it’s agents insurance licensed only, yet out preaching the benefits of BTID, I question the legality of the system.  If what that agent says in any way can be construed as a offer to sell a security, and that agent has no security license, heavy fines and even jail terms are possible. It is amusing that, having contributed to changing the industry, new products that partially resulted from Primerica’s (A L WMS, actually) activities, now outperform BTID for many people.  I refer to Variable Universal Life that has cheaper insurance, as good or better performance than most mutual funds Primerica sells, tax deferred growth, and income tax free income in the form of loans with little or no net interest.  So, having changed the industry, Primerica can no longer compete with the results of that change. Hope this of of some use to you…. Cheers, Skibum

Thanks for a well thought out article, even though I do not agree with all that you have said. (I for one, find variable UL horrible.)  I am not a big fan of UL period.  Even though I feel that many of its elements are a little more honest than others.  "When a guy with no knowledge whatsoever can make money in the stock market, it’s time for me to get out". I’ve heard all my life that the above statement was attributed to the late President Kennedy’s father, Joe.  Whether it is true or not is not relevent here.  What is true, is that vast numbers of people are now investing directly or indirectly in the stock market. Perhaps there is enough $ in the pipeline to drive the stock market to 10,000.  But in time it will slow up.  Once the this top is reached, will the "smart money" still be in the market?  Hell no!  The smart money will be making money on shorts!  Whose customers are going to get soaked?  Not mine!  Think it can’t happen?  Read history!  Think it can’t happen again?  Read more history!  This is a dangerous time. There is so much optimism that even Joe Lunchbucket thinks he can make money in the markets, by relying on fund managers.  Fund managers (good ones too) were around in October of 1928.  Did they get their investors out?  NO!  Term insurance salesmen were hating life in the 1930s during the deflation.  Even the old "weekly premium" guys looked like heros compared to the BTID crowd.  Anyone with a "lousy" whole life policy was holding gold!  I have no doubt that we will see another collapse, and I do not want my client’s life insurance chestnuts in the fire when it comes.  What the heck happened to good old fashioned caution and laying a foundation of liquidity before putting money at risk? BTID is a concept that has been around for longer than either of us has been on the planet.  The problem with it is that customers more often than not BTSD (buy term and spend the difference). Traditional "whole life" can be and still is a good purchase in most of the clients I see (sooner or later).  The same can be said for interest sensitive whole life. I see people being sold the variable product who have NO savings for short term  financial needs.  I would rather hand them the toll free number for Vangard and advise them to look into Vangard’s index funds and be their own investment advisor.  I can say from experience that the old participating WL saved my agency when Bush had us involved in desert storm and Norfolk was like a ghost town. (The funds I own were not doing so hot at the time.)  The paid up additional insurance that the dividends had purchased kept my own program from failing.   I cannot devote enough time here to do this subject justice but will say that no one , currently makes it economically rewarding enough for bright people to see a career in our field.  I contend that until the companies can find a way for bright, energetic,and honest people to make as much or more money than the CEO of a company, our business is going to be headed down hill. I find little to like about MLM because I have never seen a MLM plan that was not conceived on the idea that the "real" money is made off the sales of "downline" people and not off personal production which I think is where it has to be. I don’t think we disagree on this one. It sounds cynical, but I think too many of the companies are run by lawyers and bean counters who have never sold a policy to anyone (many would consider it beneath them and hold their sales force in contempt) and have no concept what goes on in the "field". I don’t mean to pound on you.  Based upon your response, you are the only other responder (that I have seen) to this forum who actually showed some real knowledge of our business and some experience.  We both have different life experiences that are reflected in our view of the industry.  Best wishes and I hope that you will be commenting often. Thanks for a refreshing article that was not an advertisement for financial planning.  Rob (in Norfolk, VA)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario:  Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check.  Three weeks later, Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area.  Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates.  They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them.  I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop What a joke!  The average career of a Primerica "insurance expert" is about 30 days!  It takes about that long for them to be exposed to the real world – which is usually just after they have alienated every friend and family member they have trying to get them to buy into the stupid pyramid scheme (make lots of money off someone else even more stupid than you are). So I guess that Prudential, Merill Lynch, Century 21, and any other Financial Service, Insurance, or Real Estate office is a pyramid scheme as well?  Apparently you have no idea how the "real world" works.  Primerica runs its offices the same way as anyone else, with one exception, they do not advertise in the newspaper for job openings.  They hire based on personal recommendations.  BTW, if someone is not interested then they are not interested, the office I was contacted by does not try to pressure people. For your information a pyramid is when you give money to someone and do not get anything in return.  It is only a pyramid when no product, service, or information is given in return for the money. Wait until they tell you about their wonderful life insurance plans! As opposed to the great product known as "cash-value"? Keep your hand clutched tightly around your wallets folks.  You’re better off contacting your nearest Amway distributor about how YOU can cash in on the "easy" multi-level marketing business, at least they are more honest about it.  Rob Multi-level marketing, that’s a good one.  Compare a full line financial services company to one that sells stuff from a catalog! And remember the only people that get rich in MLM are the ones that in at the beginning. Only a small % of people in MLM actually earn enough to support themselves, if they make any money at all it is usually only extra income. I assume that you have "proof" of you allegations?  Were you hired by Primerica at one time?  Are you in the insurance industry?  Or are you just going by some rumor that you overheard? —

What the heck did I stir up?  I’ve been in this business for 20 years. I remember when Art Williams started the thing.  I remember the lousy products that were sold by his followers and the projections of 18% annuities that were given their suckers.  I remember everything about how his organization convinced successful accountants and lawyers that a 100+ year old industry was going to be revolutionized by a former highschool football coach, so they plunged in and gave up practices to rake in the big bucks because they couldn’t quite seem to get it done part time.  They all fell for the line that the business was simple and that stupid insurance agents had been ripping people off for years and years. A two week licensing course doesn’t even scratch the surface.  99% of the Primerica crowd have never even read a life insurance policy from front to back and have no idea what they are really doing in the business.  They all are well intentioned, they do not intend to cause harm and I do not wish to imply such.  They do not know anything about insurance beyond the "official company" line.  I could go on and on but I am not attacking you!  I dare say that you have been convinced that "cash value" insurance is BAD.  I can assure you that I know more than just a little about what is good and not so good.  I own cash value insurance as well as quite a bit of term!  I will say that if it were not worth the premium, I would have replaced it years ago.  If you think that this topic is simple, you have been HAD.  Best wishes and kindest regards. Rob

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This takes place in Hawaii….. Scenario:  Submitted application for auto insurance…quoted $198 for 6-month policy…agreed to it and paid $198 by check.  Three weeks later,

Don’t forget the obvious choices of the Insurance Commissioner and the Better Business Bureau for your area.  Also, I have heard that Primerica Financial Services now has Auto Insurance at very reasonable rates.  They may be in your area….just look them up and contact them.  I have enjoyed doing business with them for years. – Brian Shoop

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