Question:

Greetings, I am having a hard time accounting for what should be a simple acctg item. Must not have paid enough attention in my old management accounting classes! Here’s the scoop: a construction company generates income of 10,000 for carpentry.  The check comes from a title company, which got the money from our construction loan. As I see it, our income account gets credited 10k, our title company account gets both debited and credited 10k, zeroing out, and our construction loan gets debited 10k.  balances, life’s good.  but, how to get the money into checking account, without debiting the income account? Please help. cheers, Scot B

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, I am having a hard time accounting for what should be a simple acctg item. Must not have paid enough attention in my old management accounting classes! Here’s the scoop: a construction company generates income of 10,000 for carpentry.  The check comes from a title company, which got the money from our construction loan. As I see it, our income account gets credited 10k, our title company account gets both debited and credited 10k, zeroing out, and our construction loan gets debited 10k.  balances, life’s good.  but, how to get the money into checking account, without debiting the income account? Please help. cheers,

did you actually build something for a customer?   If that’s the case the first entry would be debiting the checking account and crediting a revenue account.   Is the contstruction loan a "draw down" line of credit? Do you have an accountant for your company?   — because it sounds like you desperately need a real (not cyber) accountant.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, I am having a hard time accounting for what should be a simple acctg item. Must not have paid enough attention in my old management accounting classes! Here’s the scoop: a construction company generates income of 10,000 for carpentry.  The check comes from a title company, which got the money from our construction loan. As I see it, our income account gets credited 10k, our title company account gets both debited and credited 10k, zeroing out, and our construction loan gets debited 10k.  balances, life’s good.  but, how to get the money into checking account, without debiting the income account?

Your narration does not make much sense… you say "a construction company" and "our construction loan" so we should assume you are NOT the construction company? If that is the case then why would you be crediting income and putting money into a checking account? If you are the construction company, why is it your construction loan? Unless you are a construction company working on your own project? Is that the case, you did some work yourself and got paid by the title company? And exactly what does "your title company account" mean? Are the proceeds of your construction loan in the possession of a title company and shown as an asset on your books? Then you would not debit and credit it to "zero it out".. you would only credit it to decrease it by the amount of the disbursement. Which MAY answer your question… you should credit the balance of the loan proceeds that the title company controls (decreasing the available balance) and debit the checking account for the check you received.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, I am having a hard time accounting for what should be a simple acctg item. Must not have paid enough attention in my old management accounting classes! Here’s the scoop: a construction company generates income of 10,000 for carpentry.  The check comes from a title company, which got the money from our construction loan. As I see it, our income account gets credited 10k, our title company account gets both debited and credited 10k, zeroing out, and our construction loan gets debited 10k.  balances, life’s good.  but, how to get the money into checking account, without debiting the income account? Please help. cheers, Scot B

I could be wrong, but anytime I hear "loan from…" I think of A/P or N/P depending on the conditions of the loan. If this indeed a true loan in which the construction company pays interest on this loan then the correct application would be Cash (company chkg acct)       $10k        Notes Payable                            $10k Like I said, I could be wrong. Your information is a little confusing.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hiyah Brother (bad ass mofo xl) Birdie! Where ya been? Drinking rum outta a coconut on some white powder azure shore? ):)Actually, much to my chagrin, I know nothing about the Tim McVeigh case. A friend of mine sent this lady’s letter to me, and I started thinking about the whole "inmate’s rights" thing. It bugs me that they get to go to "Club Fed." Ya know? They get to eat 3 squares (questionable at best… ew) work out, watch TV, get a college education, etc.. and I’m not sure how I feel about that. Plus, there have been many of them who have sold books, interviews, art, etc., and I think there’s just something wrong with that. I dunno, what are your thoughts about the whole thing? I think EVERYBODY culpable for the deaths should recieve the same fate. It looks a little like the bombing of The Reichstag, which catapulted Hitler’s police state into getting a choking grip on the populace and allowed them to exterminate or discredit those opposed to the regime.. The best I can tell you is type "Oklahoma City bombing into a search engine..google.com.. and follow the links.. An FBI bomb expert and an Army General, Oklahoma City Firemen amongst others contend there was a series of charges placed at the foundation pillars or that the damage done to the building and the amount of damage to surrounding buildings is incongruent with the force of the blast from a truck of nitrate and kerosene.. BirdTribe

Interesting… although I’m not surprised. I guess it happens all the time, don’t it? ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

Interesting… although I’m not surprised. I guess it happens all the time, don’t it? They have the mob howling with circuses, hypnotized by the illusion, while the lion suckles still on the necks of the lambs. Do we wake up from the Terror of History and re-enter the Garden one at a time or en masse.. BirdTribe

En masse! Let ‘er rip! I’ll bet they’d be scared shit-less! Muahahahahaha! ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

From my latest research it is not US that have the blood and guts fascination.. The Doctrine of Signatures is pointing ever more increasingly to a form of alien Magnetotactic bacteria. Take note of the biomagnetic crystals that Witches and Sorcerers would use, such as that found in the toad or some newts. The bacteria use these matrixes of ferrous sulpide crystals to perform a spinning magnetic field similar to an involuting tessaract in structure. They glom onto the brain neuroreceptors and "pump" ectoplasm. This magnetic pulse opens the Ca+2 ion gate in the brain blood barrier and they feed off of pumped ectoplasm. So far the gums and resins of pine, particularly frankincense and myrhh, deeply inhaled in the nostrils seems to shock the piss out of them and then loosen their grip..

Whoa! I find it particularly interesting that frank & myrrh dislodges them… and we all know the media and/or big corps will capitalize on anything they can. A Lilly book? Hee! Channel some Aphrodite.. She knows how to kick its ass.

She of the western waves of twilight… makes sense. ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

LOL! Yeah man… a Lilly book! That’s marketing, eh? Who could resist a Lilly book?

Don’t know about that one… not even sure I could actually FINISH something if my life depended on it! There’s documentation that psycho’s just get more ideas from news or published crap…. but we feed them more. Ah well, takes all kinds. I guess it wouldn’t seem right if everyone drove by a 10 car pile up like they were minding their own business. Some only need a glance to figure out the story, and others have to see every detail… Maybe along with the ambulance, the fire truck, and the cops, they need a van with portable bleachers. Then those that are reeaaalllly interested, could pull over and have a seat –  maybe even get popcorn, a coke…. LOL! whew… ok, there I go…

Ooooh! That’s it! We could set up a snack bar! I’m sure we’d make a zillion dollars. Maybe we could have some extra bacteria that Birdie was explaining about mixed in with the seasoning salt for the people that pissed us off. Muahahahaha! (we could wear those masks and have cotton balls soaked in frank & myrrh to shield us) (I still think your original post is great though, about the people who jumped in and helped, at all costs. Very touching)

I know. I thought it was a bit dramatic, but hell, if my loved ones were killed, I’d be a hell of lot more maudlin than that, unfortunately. ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

LOL! They may not have any right to profit from their crimes, but "some" of them do.

name, please? Actually, many get off on legit crimes these days,

"legit crime"?  what the fuck does that mean?  ’s an oxymoron! while others of very small accidental cases are held, filling the

stalls… so… what, Timothy McVeigh "accidentally" bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building?

Response:

Seems to always go that way, eh? Just because people buy the crap… so publishers are egging it on too? While people with good writes are turned down everyday. Arrrr, makes me mad. I want to know there’s a Lilly book out there somewhere, not some dirt balls. Kerry I know, it’s the whole blood and guts facination we have,

From my latest research it is not US that have the blood and guts fascination.. The Doctrine of Signatures is pointing ever more increasingly to a form of alien Magnetotactic bacteria. Take note of the biomagnetic crystals that Witches and Sorcerers would use, such as that found in the toad or some newts. The bacteria use these matrixes of ferrous sulpide crystals to perform a spinning magnetic field similar to an involuting tessaract in structure. They glom onto the brain neuroreceptors and "pump" ectoplasm. This magnetic pulse opens the Ca+2 ion gate in the brain blood barrier and they feed off of pumped ectoplasm. So far the gums and resins of pine, particularly frankincense and myrhh, deeply inhaled in the nostrils seems to shock the piss out of them and then loosen their grip.. and we all know the media and/or big corps will capitalize on anything they can. A Lilly book? Hee!

Channel some Aphrodite.. She knows how to kick its ass. BirdTribe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

I agree. It makes me mad that he even gets to write a book, and have it published no less… why? For entertainment and a freakish vicarious thrill? I dunno… ach!  he didn’t write a fucking book.  prisoners have no right to profit from their crimes.  that INCLUDES writing and publishing books about themselves.

LOL! They may not have any right to profit from their crimes, but "some" of them do. Actually, many get off on legit crimes these days, while others of very small accidental cases are held, filling the stalls… http://dreamwater.org/kerryntheart http://dreamwater.org/biz/kerrybear

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hiyah Brother (bad ass mofo xl) Birdie! Where ya been? Drinking rum outta a coconut on some white powder azure shore? ):)Actually, much to my chagrin, I know nothing about the Tim McVeigh case. A friend of mine sent this lady’s letter to me, and I started thinking about the whole "inmate’s rights" thing. It bugs me that they get to go to "Club Fed." Ya know? They get to eat 3 squares (questionable at best… ew) work out, watch TV, get a college education, etc.. and I’m not sure how I feel about that. Plus, there have been many of them who have sold books, interviews, art, etc., and I think there’s just something wrong with that. I dunno, what are your thoughts about the whole thing? I think EVERYBODY culpable for the deaths should recieve the same fate. It looks a little like the bombing of The Reichstag, which catapulted Hitler’s police state into getting a choking grip on the populace and allowed them to exterminate or discredit those opposed to the regime.. The best I can tell you is type "Oklahoma City bombing into a search engine..google.com.. and follow the links.. An FBI bomb expert and an Army General, Oklahoma City Firemen amongst others contend there was a series of charges placed at the foundation pillars or that the damage done to the building and the amount of damage to surrounding buildings is incongruent with the force of the blast from a truck of nitrate and kerosene.. BirdTribe Interesting… although I’m not surprised. I guess it happens all the time, don’t it?

They have the mob howling with circuses, hypnotized by the illusion, while the lion suckles still on the necks of the lambs. Do we wake up from the Terror of History and re-enter the Garden one at a time or en masse.. BirdTribe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

Seems to always go that way, eh? Just because people buy the crap… so publishers are egging it on too? While people with good writes are turned down everyday. Arrrr, makes me mad. I want to know there’s a Lilly book out there somewhere, not some dirt balls. Kerry

I know, it’s the whole blood and guts facination we have, and we all know the media and/or big corps will capitalize on anything they can. A Lilly book? Hee! ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

Seems to always go that way, eh? Just because people buy the crap… so publishers are egging it on too? While people with good writes are turned down everyday. Arrrr, makes me mad. I want to know there’s a Lilly book out there somewhere, not some dirt balls. Kerry I know, it’s the whole blood and guts facination we have, and we all know the media and/or big corps will capitalize on anything they can. A Lilly book? Hee!

LOL! Yeah man… a Lilly book! That’s marketing, eh? Who could resist a Lilly book? There’s documentation that psycho’s just get more ideas from news or published crap…. but we feed them more. Ah well, takes all kinds. I guess it wouldn’t seem right if everyone drove by a 10 car pile up like they were minding their own business. Some only need a glance to figure out the story, and others have to see every detail… Maybe along with the ambulance, the fire truck, and the cops, they need a van with portable bleachers. Then those that are reeaaalllly interested, could pull over and have a seat –  maybe even get popcorn, a coke…. LOL! whew… ok, there I go… (I still think your original post is great though, about the people who jumped in and helped, at all costs. Very touching) Kerry Kerry ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

http://dreamwater.org/kerryntheart http://dreamwater.org/biz/kerrybear

Response:

I agree. It makes me mad that he even gets to write a book, and have it published no less… why? For entertainment and a freakish vicarious thrill? I dunno…

ach!  he didn’t write a fucking book.  prisoners have no right to profit from their crimes.  that INCLUDES writing and publishing books about themselves.

Response:

I agree. It makes me mad that he even gets to write a book, and have it published no less… why? For entertainment and a freakish vicarious thrill? I dunno… ach!  he didn’t write a fucking book.  prisoners have no right to profit from their crimes.  that INCLUDES writing and publishing books about themselves.

Oh ok, the letter said that he is coming out with the book, and that they offered the proceeds to the victim’s fund (who turned it down). I can’t make up my mind if I think that anything they earn (criminals) should go to their victims, or if they just shouldn’t be allowed period. BT makes a lot of good points about Tim McVeigh too. I didn’t put up the post so much to explore him, rather to explore this "making money in the joint" phenomena that goes on. I have to say though, I know very little about it. ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

It would be nice if the proceeds went to the victims, why?  it was written to make the authors money, wasn’t it?  why would anyone spend so long researching a subject so old, go to McVeigh’s cell for an interview, write out a 200-page essay, and throw all that hard work in the shitter?  because they want to give it people in Oklahoma who don’t need it anymore?

It certainly was written to make money. It’s that weird phenomina that goes on sorta the same as when people rubberneck on the freeway when there has been a terrible accident and they wanna see limbs ascew and blood. I know Oklahoma might not need it, but I think it would be nice to offer it to the victim’s families, perhaps to pay for the medical bills, burial costs, etc.. I hate to see people commercialize mass murder (whoever did it) and make money on it, but hells bells, it happens all the time. but they don’t want it, and neither would I. oh joy.  hell, if it’s free money, i’ll take it.

That’s fine. I just think if I were in the same spot, I wouldn’t want a red-ass cent from from the person/people/institution who murdered my loved ones… even if I needed it. Why does he get to write a book in the joint anyway? he didn’t write the book.  authors are Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck.

Ok, I didn’t realize that. In my other response to you, I asked about this same thing. Good to know… ~Lilly — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

Good post. Who cares what Tim McV thinks, anyway?

ALL the BATF agents who were conveniently out of the building. I believe they are killing an Oswald styled patsy. That oughta shut him up for good. I do commend this poster on her spirit and empathy.. BirdTribe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Caliban Hey Guys & Gals of ARW, A friend of mine just sent this to me. Thought some of you would find it interesting, and might even like to comment on it. ~Lilly Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb! Dear Friends, I will not forward the excerpt from the book that has been written by two reporters and a couple of shrinks about Tim McVeigh.  It was sent to me by someone I respect, and I have checked it out to be sure that the quote was accurate.  And, it was.  I fully expected to read this book.  I wanted to know a lot of things.  And, I believe that the book is an accurate account of what Tim McVeigh has said. I wanted to know why he picked Oklahoma City. I wanted to know if he implicated anyone else. I wanted to know if he took responsibility.   But, I won’t read the book. After reading the excerpt I know that it doesn’t matter.  It won’t change a thing.  I have to address this.  So, buckle up, because here goes. And, before I start this tirade, I want to say that what follows I know to be fact because I saw it. My husband sat up a tent across the street from the building, right next to Little Caesar’s pizza, who also sat up a tent and made pizza’s on the spot.  Jim’s company donated all the coffee and  tea and equipment, and we funneled the water and cokes and other supplies that were donated through that little blue tent and to the rescuers, and the workers. So, we saw  what happened, and we know.  My husband, whose heart is so soft he swerves to miss a turtle on the highway, stood in that carnage, unflinching, on a knee the size of a basketball and did everything he could. This, to me, is the measure of a man. Tim McVeigh says, and this is the only quote from the man you’ll get from me "It was my choice and my control to hit that building when it was full. ….I understand what they felt in Oklahoma City.  I have no sympathy for them."   First of all, I don’t think Tim McVeigh feels at all, and second, no one in Oklahoma City asked for any sympathy of any kind. Least of all Tim McVeigh’s. While he was cowering away from the scene, with ear plugs in his ears, the people of my town were running toward the mess he had created.  There were not just 168 bodies to be recovered.  There were almost 1000 injured people to be triaged and helped.  That was done.  And, it was done with a speed and an accuracy that stunned the people who came later to help us. Our construction companies had cranes in place within the first hour. Our hardware companies turned their shelves over to the effort.  Vets came to help with the rescue animals. Doctors came and worked along side construction workers and lay people.  Engineers kept that wreck standing until all but three bodies were recovered And no matter what the conspiracy people say, that was a damned miracle.  When the wind blew, even a little, that building swayed and groaned so loud it was audible for blocks. When other States sent rescue units to help us, my town fed them, clothed them, held their heads when they vomited at the carnage and comforted them when they cried. Being close to that building wasn’t easy during those 19 days. It was bloody, it stank, and it was dangerous. And, in spite of this, we had trouble getting people to stand down and take a rest.   Thank you, New York Urban, and Phoenix, and Fairfax, and Dade County, and Denver, and Everyone else who came. You showed up on our door step like a good neighbor, with your equipment, and tears in your eyes, and we will forever be in your debt. You are heroes to the person, and always in my prayers.  Saint Michael’s heart beats in you all. Buildings around the site stood wide open.  Their foundations sprung to the extent that their doors wouldn’t lock.  But, locking the doors wouldn’t have mattered anyway, since the windows were all gone.  There was not one incident of looting. Not one.   And, Joe Q. American did everything else. By midnight, that first day, we had an ample supply of blood for all.  I saw people lined up around the Oklahoma Blood institute.  Hundreds of people lined up, waiting for hours,  to donate their blood. Business men in suits talked casually to homeless  people who felt the blast and came.   And, the rescuers didn’t just exist on dry sandwiches.  Oh no. Little Caesar’s, and the Outback, and Subway, and local Barbecue and Steak houses, and Hooter’s, and Taco Bell, and Sonic, and other’s too numerous to  mention, some from Texas and Kansas fed everyone well. And for free. And this  wasn’t easy. Food had to labeled as to date, origin, and time of arrival, and kept clean and cold in a very inhospitable environment.  And, this was done. Everyone at the site was sick, but it was never because of the food.  And, by the way, this was all done with a finesse that preserved ample evidence to get Tim McVeigh’s sorry ass strapped to a gurney and taken care of. That coward won’t kill anyone else’s babies. While we tended to the needs of the rescuers, the FBI, the ATF, FEMA, and the Oklahoma City Police Department worked around us, and under our feet, sometimes with tweezers, and plastic bags, picking up minute pieces of the barrels that held the explosives, and pieces as big as the axle of the Ryder Rental truck.  They were professionals all, and sensitive to our feelings. When the authors wanted to donate a portion of the proceeds from the book to our Memorial, the Memorial committee quietly said "no thank you."  I am so glad, and so proud of them.  No sympathy, or no money needed here. We’ll handle it, thank you.  Don’t buy the book.  Send the $20. to the Memorial, or to the Red Cross, or to the Education fund for the children of the victims, or to the Oklahoma City Fire Department, or the Phoenix Fire Department, or Dade County, or to Feed the Children.   This is not about Tim McVeigh. It’s about the human spirit. And, it’s here, and it thrives, and it asks no sympathy. Love to All, Donna Prather — Caliban "Don’t fear the night. Fear what hunts at night."

Response:

Good post. Who cares what Tim McV thinks, anyway? Caliban Ya, I know. Actually though, sadly, somehow I think it will do rather well (the book).

a-yup. It would be nice if the proceeds went to the victims,

why?  it was written to make the authors money, wasn’t it?  why would anyone spend so long researching a subject so old, go to McVeigh’s cell for an interview, write out a 200-page essay, and throw all that hard work in the shitter?  because they want to give it people in Oklahoma who don’t need it anymore? but they don’t want it, and neither would I.

oh joy.  hell, if it’s free money, i’ll take it. Why does he get to write a book in the joint anyway?

he didn’t write the book.  authors are Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck. *grin*

Response:

I agree. It makes me mad that he even gets to write a book, and have it published no less… why? For entertainment and a freakish vicarious thrill? I dunno…

Seems to always go that way, eh? Just because people buy the crap… so publishers are egging it on too? While people with good writes are turned down everyday. Arrrr, makes me mad. I want to know there’s a Lilly book out there somewhere, not some dirt balls. Kerry — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

http://dreamwater.org/kerryntheart http://dreamwater.org/biz/kerrybear

Response:

Good post. Who cares what Tim McV thinks, anyway? Caliban Ya, I know. Actually though, sadly, somehow I think it will do rather well (the book). It would be nice if the proceeds went to the victims, but they don’t want it, and neither would I. Why does he get to write a book in the joint anyway? Shouldn’t he be doing hard time? LOL! Sheesh, next they’ll be piping in cable to his own wide screen TV in his luxury cell…

Umm… next he’ll be dead.

Response:

ALL the BATF agents who were conveniently out of the building. I believe they are killing an Oswald styled patsy. That oughta shut him up for good. I do commend this poster on her spirit and empathy.. BirdTribe

Hiyah Brother (bad ass mofo xl) Birdie! Where ya been? Drinking rum outta a coconut on some white powder azure shore? ):)Actually, much to my chagrin, I know nothing about the Tim McVeigh case. A friend of mine sent this lady’s letter to me, and I started thinking about the whole "inmate’s rights" thing. It bugs me that they get to go to "Club Fed." Ya know? They get to eat 3 squares (questionable at best… ew) work out, watch TV, get a college education, etc.. and I’m not sure how I feel about that. Plus, there have been many of them who have sold books, interviews, art, etc., and I think there’s just something wrong with that. I dunno, what are your thoughts about the whole thing? Missed ya! ~The Petaled One — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ALL the BATF agents who were conveniently out of the building. I believe they are killing an Oswald styled patsy. That oughta shut him up for good. I do commend this poster on her spirit and empathy.. BirdTribe Hiyah Brother (bad ass mofo xl) Birdie! Where ya been? Drinking rum outta a coconut on some white powder azure shore? ):)Actually, much to my chagrin, I know nothing about the Tim McVeigh case. A friend of mine sent this lady’s letter to me, and I started thinking about the whole "inmate’s rights" thing. It bugs me that they get to go to "Club Fed." Ya know? They get to eat 3 squares (questionable at best… ew) work out, watch TV, get a college education, etc.. and I’m not sure how I feel about that. Plus, there have been many of them who have sold books, interviews, art, etc., and I think there’s just something wrong with that. I dunno, what are your thoughts about the whole thing?

I think EVERYBODY culpable for the deaths should recieve the same fate. It looks a little like the bombing of The Reichstag, which catapulted Hitler’s police state into getting a choking grip on the populace and allowed them to exterminate or discredit those opposed to the regime.. The best I can tell you is type "Oklahoma City bombing into a search engine..google.com.. and follow the links.. An FBI bomb expert and an Army General, Oklahoma City Firemen amongst others contend there was a series of charges placed at the foundation pillars or that the damage done to the building and the amount of damage to surrounding buildings is incongruent with the force of the blast from a truck of nitrate and kerosene.. BirdTribe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Missed ya! ~The Petaled One — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

Good post. Who cares what Tim McV thinks, anyway? Caliban

Ya, I know. Actually though, sadly, somehow I think it will do rather well (the book). It would be nice if the proceeds went to the victims, but they don’t want it, and neither would I. Why does he get to write a book in the joint anyway? Shouldn’t he be doing hard time? LOL! Sheesh, next they’ll be piping in cable to his own wide screen TV in his luxury cell… ~L — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

Lilly Willow,       A very touching and heartfelt accounting of good people doing great work in the aftermath of one of the most heinous crimes ever committed against our fellow man.  It brought tears to my eyes as I visualized the wreckage of the building and the brave souls who worked to save who they could, and to make right the wrong perpetrated that day. I fully agree with your sentiments.  The publisher of the book will make no money from me! Blessed Be O’Carolan GrayOwl

Nor me! ~Lilly — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you, Lilly. Very touching, indeed. That was an excellent letter, I hope many are fortunate to read it. It was so well written it kept me till the last, and the point… was so well said. Our focus tends to be on the gossip, the ooos and ahhhs, and the wrecks along the highway… It makes me angry to see the focus on a single individual who’s intent it was to get that focus, …to prove that humans are not keeping their priorities in the right place, and we fall victim every time. I say we, because there is a majority who thrive on this crap, and it only enhances the decision of more, to do the same. We need to bombard the world with more things like this and let the suckers be ignored. Thanks for the post! Kerry

I agree. It makes me mad that he even gets to write a book, and have it published no less… why? For entertainment and a freakish vicarious thrill? I dunno… — Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb!

Response:

Lilly Willow,       A very touching and heartfelt accounting of good people doing great work in the aftermath of one of the most heinous crimes ever committed against our fellow man.  It brought tears to my eyes as I visualized the wreckage of the building and the brave souls who worked to save who they could, and to make right the wrong perpetrated that day. I fully agree with your sentiments.  The publisher of the book will make no money from me! Blessed Be O’Carolan GrayOwl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Guys & Gals of ARW, A friend of mine just sent this to me. Thought some of you would find it interesting, and might even like to comment on it. ~Lilly Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb! Dear Friends, I will not forward the excerpt from the book that has been written by two reporters and a couple of shrinks about Tim McVeigh.  It was sent to me by someone I respect, and I have checked it out to be sure that the quote was accurate.  And, it was.  I fully expected to read this book.  I wanted to know a lot of things.  And, I believe that the book is an accurate account of what Tim McVeigh has said. I wanted to know why he picked Oklahoma City. I wanted to know if he implicated anyone else. I wanted to know if he took responsibility.   But, I won’t read the book. After reading the excerpt I know that it doesn’t matter.  It won’t change a thing.  I have to address this.  So, buckle up, because here goes. And, before I start this tirade, I want to say that what follows I know to be fact because I saw it. My husband sat up a tent across the street from the building, right next to Little Caesar’s pizza, who also sat up a tent and made pizza’s on the spot.  Jim’s company donated all the coffee and  tea and equipment, and we funneled the water and cokes and other supplies that were donated through that little blue tent and to the rescuers, and the workers. So, we saw  what happened, and we know.  My husband, whose heart is so soft he swerves to miss a turtle on the highway, stood in that carnage, unflinching, on a knee the size of a basketball and did everything he could. This, to me, is the measure of a man. Tim McVeigh says, and this is the only quote from the man you’ll get from me "It was my choice and my control to hit that building when it was full. ….I understand what they felt in Oklahoma City.  I have no sympathy for them."   First of all, I don’t think Tim McVeigh feels at all, and second, no one in Oklahoma City asked for any sympathy of any kind. Least of all Tim McVeigh’s. While he was cowering away from the scene, with ear plugs in his ears, the people of my town were running toward the mess he had created.  There were not just 168 bodies to be recovered.  There were almost 1000 injured people to be triaged and helped.  That was done.  And, it was done with a speed and an accuracy that stunned the people who came later to help us. Our construction companies had cranes in place within the first hour. Our hardware companies turned their shelves over to the effort.  Vets came to help with the rescue animals. Doctors came and worked along side construction workers and lay people.  Engineers kept that wreck standing until all but three bodies were recovered And no matter what the conspiracy people say, that was a damned miracle.  When the wind blew, even a little, that building swayed and groaned so loud it was audible for blocks. When other States sent rescue units to help us, my town fed them, clothed them, held their heads when they vomited at the carnage and comforted them when they cried. Being close to that building wasn’t easy during those 19 days. It was bloody, it stank, and it was dangerous. And, in spite of this, we had trouble getting people to stand down and take a rest.   Thank you, New York Urban, and Phoenix, and Fairfax, and Dade County, and Denver, and Everyone else who came. You showed up on our door step like a good neighbor, with your equipment, and tears in your eyes, and we will forever be in your debt. You are heroes to the person, and always in my prayers.  Saint Michael’s heart beats in you all. Buildings around the site stood wide open.  Their foundations sprung to the extent that their doors wouldn’t lock.  But, locking the doors wouldn’t have mattered anyway, since the windows were all gone.  There was not one incident of looting. Not one.   And, Joe Q. American did everything else. By midnight, that first day, we had an ample supply of blood for all.  I saw people lined up around the Oklahoma Blood institute.  Hundreds of people lined up, waiting for hours,  to donate their blood. Business men in suits talked casually to homeless  people who felt the blast and came.   And, the rescuers didn’t just exist on dry sandwiches.  Oh no. Little Caesar’s, and the Outback, and Subway, and local Barbecue and Steak houses, and Hooter’s, and Taco Bell, and Sonic, and other’s too numerous to  mention, some from Texas and Kansas fed everyone well. And for free. And this  wasn’t easy. Food had to labeled as to date, origin, and time of arrival, and kept clean and cold in a very inhospitable environment.  And, this was done. Everyone at the site was sick, but it was never because of the food.  And, by the way, this was all done with a finesse that preserved ample evidence to get Tim McVeigh’s sorry ass strapped to a gurney and taken care of. That coward won’t kill anyone else’s babies. While we tended to the needs of the rescuers, the FBI, the ATF, FEMA, and the Oklahoma City Police Department worked around us, and under our feet, sometimes with tweezers, and plastic bags, picking up minute pieces of the barrels that held the explosives, and pieces as big as the axle of the Ryder Rental truck.  They were professionals all, and sensitive to our feelings. When the authors wanted to donate a portion of the proceeds from the book to our Memorial, the Memorial committee quietly said "no thank you."  I am so glad, and so proud of them.  No sympathy, or no money needed here. We’ll handle it, thank you.  Don’t buy the book.  Send the $20. to the Memorial, or to the Red Cross, or to the Education fund for the children of the victims, or to the Oklahoma City Fire Department, or the Phoenix Fire Department, or Dade County, or to Feed the Children.   This is not about Tim McVeigh. It’s about the human spirit. And, it’s here, and it thrives, and it asks no sympathy. Love to All, Donna Prather

Response:

Good post. Who cares what Tim McV thinks, anyway? Caliban – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Guys & Gals of ARW, A friend of mine just sent this to me. Thought some of you would find it interesting, and might even like to comment on it. ~Lilly Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb! Dear Friends, I will not forward the excerpt from the book that has been written by two reporters and a couple of shrinks about Tim McVeigh.  It was sent to me by someone I respect, and I have checked it out to be sure that the quote was accurate.  And, it was.  I fully expected to read this book.  I wanted to know a lot of things.  And, I believe that the book is an accurate account of what Tim McVeigh has said. I wanted to know why he picked Oklahoma City. I wanted to know if he implicated anyone else. I wanted to know if he took responsibility.   But, I won’t read the book. After reading the excerpt I know that it doesn’t matter.  It won’t change a thing.  I have to address this.  So, buckle up, because here goes. And, before I start this tirade, I want to say that what follows I know to be fact because I saw it. My husband sat up a tent across the street from the building, right next to Little Caesar’s pizza, who also sat up a tent and made pizza’s on the spot.  Jim’s company donated all the coffee and  tea and equipment, and we funneled the water and cokes and other supplies that were donated through that little blue tent and to the rescuers, and the workers. So, we saw  what happened, and we know.  My husband, whose heart is so soft he swerves to miss a turtle on the highway, stood in that carnage, unflinching, on a knee the size of a basketball and did everything he could. This, to me, is the measure of a man. Tim McVeigh says, and this is the only quote from the man you’ll get from me "It was my choice and my control to hit that building when it was full. ….I understand what they felt in Oklahoma City.  I have no sympathy for them."   First of all, I don’t think Tim McVeigh feels at all, and second, no one in Oklahoma City asked for any sympathy of any kind. Least of all Tim McVeigh’s. While he was cowering away from the scene, with ear plugs in his ears, the people of my town were running toward the mess he had created.  There were not just 168 bodies to be recovered.  There were almost 1000 injured people to be triaged and helped.  That was done.  And, it was done with a speed and an accuracy that stunned the people who came later to help us. Our construction companies had cranes in place within the first hour. Our hardware companies turned their shelves over to the effort.  Vets came to help with the rescue animals. Doctors came and worked along side construction workers and lay people.  Engineers kept that wreck standing until all but three bodies were recovered And no matter what the conspiracy people say, that was a damned miracle.  When the wind blew, even a little, that building swayed and groaned so loud it was audible for blocks. When other States sent rescue units to help us, my town fed them, clothed them, held their heads when they vomited at the carnage and comforted them when they cried. Being close to that building wasn’t easy during those 19 days. It was bloody, it stank, and it was dangerous. And, in spite of this, we had trouble getting people to stand down and take a rest.   Thank you, New York Urban, and Phoenix, and Fairfax, and Dade County, and Denver, and Everyone else who came. You showed up on our door step like a good neighbor, with your equipment, and tears in your eyes, and we will forever be in your debt. You are heroes to the person, and always in my prayers.  Saint Michael’s heart beats in you all. Buildings around the site stood wide open.  Their foundations sprung to the extent that their doors wouldn’t lock.  But, locking the doors wouldn’t have mattered anyway, since the windows were all gone.  There was not one incident of looting. Not one.   And, Joe Q. American did everything else. By midnight, that first day, we had an ample supply of blood for all.  I saw people lined up around the Oklahoma Blood institute.  Hundreds of people lined up, waiting for hours,  to donate their blood. Business men in suits talked casually to homeless  people who felt the blast and came.   And, the rescuers didn’t just exist on dry sandwiches.  Oh no. Little Caesar’s, and the Outback, and Subway, and local Barbecue and Steak houses, and Hooter’s, and Taco Bell, and Sonic, and other’s too numerous to  mention, some from Texas and Kansas fed everyone well. And for free. And this  wasn’t easy. Food had to labeled as to date, origin, and time of arrival, and kept clean and cold in a very inhospitable environment.  And, this was done. Everyone at the site was sick, but it was never because of the food.  And, by the way, this was all done with a finesse that preserved ample evidence to get Tim McVeigh’s sorry ass strapped to a gurney and taken care of. That coward won’t kill anyone else’s babies. While we tended to the needs of the rescuers, the FBI, the ATF, FEMA, and the Oklahoma City Police Department worked around us, and under our feet, sometimes with tweezers, and plastic bags, picking up minute pieces of the barrels that held the explosives, and pieces as big as the axle of the Ryder Rental truck.  They were professionals all, and sensitive to our feelings. When the authors wanted to donate a portion of the proceeds from the book to our Memorial, the Memorial committee quietly said "no thank you."  I am so glad, and so proud of them.  No sympathy, or no money needed here. We’ll handle it, thank you.  Don’t buy the book.  Send the $20. to the Memorial, or to the Red Cross, or to the Education fund for the children of the victims, or to the Oklahoma City Fire Department, or the Phoenix Fire Department, or Dade County, or to Feed the Children.   This is not about Tim McVeigh. It’s about the human spirit. And, it’s here, and it thrives, and it asks no sympathy. Love to All, Donna Prather

– Caliban "Don’t fear the night. Fear what hunts at night."

Response:

Hey Guys & Gals of ARW, A friend of mine just sent this to me. Thought some of you would find it interesting, and might even like to comment on it. ~Lilly Anek Khepera… Ankh OodJa Seneb! Dear Friends, I will not forward the excerpt from the book that has been written by two reporters and a couple of shrinks about Tim McVeigh.  It was sent to me by someone I respect, and I have checked it out to be sure that the quote was accurate.  And, it was.  I fully expected to read this book.  I wanted to know a lot of things.  And, I believe that the book is an accurate account of what Tim McVeigh has said. I wanted to know why he picked Oklahoma City. I wanted to know if he implicated anyone else. I wanted to know if he took responsibility.   But, I won’t read the book. After reading the excerpt I know that it doesn’t matter.  It won’t change a thing.  I have to address this.  So, buckle up, because here goes. And, before I start this tirade, I want to say that what follows I know to be fact because I saw it. My husband sat up a tent across the street from the building, right next to Little Caesar’s pizza, who also sat up a tent and made pizza’s on the spot.  Jim’s company donated all the coffee and  tea and equipment, and we funneled the water and cokes and other supplies that were donated through that little blue tent and to the rescuers, and the workers. So, we saw  what happened, and we know.  My husband, whose heart is so soft he swerves to miss a turtle on the highway, stood in that carnage, unflinching, on a knee the size of a basketball and did everything he could. This, to me, is the measure of a man. Tim McVeigh says, and this is the only quote from the man you’ll get from me "It was my choice and my control to hit that building when it was full. ….I understand what they felt in Oklahoma City.  I have no sympathy for them."   First of all, I don’t think Tim McVeigh feels at all, and second, no one in Oklahoma City asked for any sympathy of any kind. Least of all Tim McVeigh’s. While he was cowering away from the scene, with ear plugs in his ears, the people of my town were running toward the mess he had created.  There were not just 168 bodies to be recovered.  There were almost 1000 injured people to be triaged and helped.  That was done.  And, it was done with a speed and an accuracy that stunned the people who came later to help us. Our construction companies had cranes in place within the first hour. Our hardware companies turned their shelves over to the effort.  Vets came to help with the rescue animals. Doctors came and worked along side construction workers and lay people.  Engineers kept that wreck standing until all but three bodies were recovered And no matter what the conspiracy people say, that was a damned miracle.  When the wind blew, even a little, that building swayed and groaned so loud it was audible for blocks. When other States sent rescue units to help us, my town fed them, clothed them, held their heads when they vomited at the carnage and comforted them when they cried. Being close to that building wasn’t easy during those 19 days. It was bloody, it stank, and it was dangerous. And, in spite of this, we had trouble getting people to stand down and take a rest.   Thank you, New York Urban, and Phoenix, and Fairfax, and Dade County, and Denver, and Everyone else who came. You showed up on our door step like a good neighbor, with your equipment, and tears in your eyes, and we will forever be in your debt. You are heroes to the person, and always in my prayers.  Saint Michael’s heart beats in you all. Buildings around the site stood wide open.  Their foundations sprung to the extent that their doors wouldn’t lock.  But, locking the doors wouldn’t have mattered anyway, since the windows were all gone.  There was not one incident of looting. Not one.   And, Joe Q. American did everything else. By midnight, that first day, we had an ample supply of blood for all.  I saw people lined up around the Oklahoma Blood institute.  Hundreds of people lined up, waiting for hours,  to donate their blood. Business men in suits talked casually to homeless  people who felt the blast and came.   And, the rescuers didn’t just exist on dry sandwiches.  Oh no. Little Caesar’s, and the Outback, and Subway, and local Barbecue and Steak houses, and Hooter’s, and Taco Bell, and Sonic, and other’s too numerous to  mention, some from Texas and Kansas fed everyone well. And for free. And this  wasn’t easy. Food had to labeled as to date, origin, and time of arrival, and kept clean and cold in a very inhospitable environment.  And, this was done. Everyone at the site was sick, but it was never because of the food.  And, by the way, this was all done with a finesse that preserved ample evidence to get Tim McVeigh’s sorry ass strapped to a gurney and taken care of. That coward won’t kill anyone else’s babies. While we tended to the needs of the rescuers, the FBI, the ATF, FEMA, and the Oklahoma City Police Department worked around us, and under our feet, sometimes with tweezers, and plastic bags, picking up minute pieces of the barrels that held the explosives, and pieces as big as the axle of the Ryder Rental truck.  They were professionals all, and sensitive to our feelings. When the authors wanted to donate a portion of the proceeds from the book to our Memorial, the Memorial committee quietly said "no thank you."  I am so glad, and so proud of them.  No sympathy, or no money needed here. We’ll handle it, thank you.  Don’t buy the book.  Send the $20. to the Memorial, or to the Red Cross, or to the Education fund for the children of the victims, or to the Oklahoma City Fire Department, or the Phoenix Fire Department, or Dade County, or to Feed the Children.   This is not about Tim McVeigh. It’s about the human spirit. And, it’s here, and it thrives, and it asks no sympathy. Love to All, Donna Prather

Response:

Question:

I am a Small Company with 8 employees and have an annual Gross of around $700,000. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what it might cost to prepare a 5500 Tx return for me. I have a suspicion I was charged way too much by my accountant. Seneca

Response:

It depends on what he actually had to do. In Italy you would have been charged for some 1,500-2,000 bucks if data were ready to be assembled. It’s difficult to make a comparaison. Bye. Vince – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a Small Company with 8 employees and have an annual Gross of around $700,000. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what it might cost to prepare a 5500 Tx return for me. I have a suspicion I was charged way too much by my accountant. Seneca

Response:

It would depend on the type of plan the 5500 is for, and the amount of prep work required.  The state of your records, and the number of transactions will also have an effect on the price.  Without further information, estimates would not be meaningful. Anthony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a Small Company with 8 employees and have an annual Gross of around $700,000. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what it might cost to prepare a 5500 Tx return for me. I have a suspicion I was charged way too much by my accountant. Seneca

Response:

I am a Small Company with 8 employees and have an annual Gross of around $700,000. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what it might cost to prepare a 5500 Tx return for me. I have a suspicion I was charged way too much by my accountant.

Company gross revenues is not a factor in the amount of billings (at least it shouldn’t be) for a Form 5500. What type of plan do you have?   Of the 8 employees, how many are participating in the plan?   How many ex-employees are vested (if that is a factor)? Does the plan have to be tested for the highly compensated (top heavy) employees? How many investments does the plan have? What shape are the records in? Remember that the forms changed this year (99 plan years).   — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

I am a Small Company with 8 employees and have an annual Gross of around $700,000. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what it might cost to prepare a 5500 Tx return for me. I have a suspicion I was charged way too much by my accountant.

As Paul said, there are *LOTS* of variables involved in this case–far too many for anyone to really be able to give you a realistic estimate of a fee.  Additionally, is it *ONLY* the 5500 that is involved, or are other aspects of plan compliance also involved (testing, distribution notices, 1099s, etc.)?  And is the plan a "vanilla" plan or is it a "complex" plan (say a new comparability profit sharing plan)?

Response:

I am a Small Company with 8 employees and have an annual Gross of around $700,000. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what it might cost to prepare a 5500 Tx return for me. I have a suspicion I was charged way too much by my accountant.

It can vary greatly depending on the type of work involved, but an easy one could be around $2000-3000. Most accounting firms would charge around $150-200 per hour for staff time, more for supervisory or partner time. It really depends on how long it takes. Sometimes most of the work is done by the client, and sometimes most of it is done by the accountant. It’s kind of like asking how much is costs for an individual return if the individual earns $100,000. If it comprises one W-2, it wouldn’t cost much, but if the client had a Schedule "C" and dozens of stock transactions, but the same $100,000 AGI, the return might cost a lot more. So, the real question is, how much work was involved? If you don’t know, ask the accountant how he/she calculated the fee.

Response:

With the changes an complexities in that particular form, I doubt you were over charged.  Look it over yourself and see how long it would take you to do it. Then consider what you were charged.  If you are honest, I suspect you will not have a problem with the fee.

Response:

With the changes an complexities in that particular form, I doubt you were over charged.  Look it over yourself and see how long it would take you to do it. Then consider what you were charged.  If you are honest, I suspect you will not have a problem with the fee.

He probably couldn’t do it himself

Response:

Question:

Hello.  In my sales position we figure magins by dividing the cost of goods by the inverse of the margin you want.  For example, if the cost of an item is 1, to figure a 30% margin you would divide the cost by 70, the inverse of .30.  This is how I was taught to do it, but is this a true 30% margin?  Or is it actually padded a little bit?  How would you figure the margin when you have the selling price, the cost, and the margin?  For example: help me backwards engineer the equation. According to our accounting software, items (200pcs) that sold for a total of $14, with a combined cost of $1.36, brought in a profit of $12.64 and a profit margin of 90%.  How can I figure the profit margin percentage when given the cost and selling price?  Thanks!

Response:

Troy – enter the cost and divide by the sales amount.  This produces the calculation for the cost percentage.  The inverse of this number will be the profit %.  In your example:  1.36 / 14.00 = .10.  The profit % is then 90%. DeeDee Heyne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  In my sales position we figure magins by dividing the cost of goods by the inverse of the margin you want.  For example, if the cost of an item is 1, to figure a 30% margin you would divide the cost by 70, the inverse of .30.  This is how I was taught to do it, but is this a true 30% margin?  Or is it actually padded a little bit?  How would you figure the margin when you have the selling price, the cost, and the margin?  For example: help me backwards engineer the equation. According to our accounting software, items (200pcs) that sold for a total of $14, with a combined cost of $1.36, brought in a profit of $12.64 and a profit margin of 90%.  How can I figure the profit margin percentage when given the cost and selling price?  Thanks!

  dbhent.vcf

1K Download

Response:

I hope this is what you are looking for.  This is what I was taught. SP= Selling Price of widget COGS=Cost of Goods Sold (i.e cost of widget) GP=Gross Profit Margin GP%=Gross Profit  Percentage(or Gross Margin percentage) SP – COGS = GP   GP is what you have left to cover your Fixed Costs. GP / SP = GP% In your example you said your sales were $14 and Cost of Goods Sold = $1.36 and your Gross Profit  was $12.64, so your Gross Profit Percentage was 12.64 / 14.00 = 90.29%.   This is not your Profit Margin. It looks as though the percentage that you were given was the Gross Profit Percentage and not the Profit Margin Percentage. Now, if you wish to figure out your Profit Margin you take your Net Income and divide by Sales. NI/ Sales = Profit Margin. Of course, to get to your NI you need to take sales – COGS – Other Expenses. I hope this helped clarify the question you had. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  In my sales position we figure magins by dividing the cost of goods by the inverse of the margin you want.  For example, if the cost of an item is 1, to figure a 30% margin you would divide the cost by 70, the inverse of .30.  This is how I was taught to do it, but is this a true 30% margin?  Or is it actually padded a little bit?  How would you figure the margin when you have the selling price, the cost, and the margin?  For example: help me backwards engineer the equation. According to our accounting software, items (200pcs) that sold for a total of $14, with a combined cost of $1.36, brought in a profit of $12.64 and a profit margin of 90%.  How can I figure the profit margin percentage when given the cost and selling price?  Thanks!

Response:

Everyone’s right.  It depends on the definition in force.  Same is true for other ratios, such as "inventory turns."  We’ve found five definitions for inventory turns, with three in realtively common usage.  There’s no authoritative standard, therefore, it is tough to compare company to company unless you can start with the raw numbers.  Same is true for "profit margin."  You can go on for years thinking "profit margin" (simply "margin" in many companies as you’re using it) is one thing and your boss may have a different mental calculation.  Its relatively simple to resolve in you case, far more complicated when you’re trying to decide what to inclue in "cost of goods." Within a given company, I urge you to develop what we call "E" or explanation sheets, AKA "standards".  An "E" sheet for "profit margin" will explain how it is to be calculated within your company.  Notes may explain how it might be calculated in another company, so people understand the semantic problems.  "E" sheets are the only way to bring consistency over time, but people will still argue "this is the way I was taught." Wins Burke

Response:

Just subtract the cost from the selling price and divide the result by the selling price.  That will give you the GM (Gross Margin) on the sale.  A lot of people confuse Markup with Gross Margin (Profit). They are two distinctly different things.

Response:

Question:

snip I and others like me sure pay less fuel tax than before. Mike Borgelt

All LSP has done for me is make flying more expensive, which means less time in the air and less time for sympathy for Dick Smith and friends. No fuel tax cuts have been passed on to me and I now have to cop landing charges that I had never been charged before. Please explain. Peter Vogl

Response:

All LSP has done for me is make flying more expensive, which means less

time in the air and less time for sympathy for Dick Smith and friends. No fuel tax cuts have been passed on to me and I now have to cop landing

charges that I had never been charged before. Please explain. I and others like me sure pay less fuel tax than before. Peter Vogl

I can explain Peter’s problem because the Govt’s policy of selling off its (our) assets for a quick buck means the entrepreneurs who borrowed money to buy them (and were the highest bidders) means we now have to pay their interest bills to the hungry financiers rather than just a "dividend" to ourselves. I can’t explain Mike Borgelt’s paying less fuel tax because I know him as a glider pilot who therefore never paid fuel tax anyway.  He just paid sales tax for his glider – taxed at 22% as sporting goods rather than 0% like every other aircraft. Either way, ordinary fliers have been screwed by the Government, regardless of the politics of CASA and Airservices. Wombat  (with standard employer disclaimer)

Response:

I gotta bite on this one I and others like me sure pay less fuel tax than before.

I wish. I do not think that the dropping of the fuel tax has cheapened my flying at all, at all. Operators have absorbed the difference, not the user (in the case of the hirer like myself – canna afford to buy). Cheers John — NOTE! Change of address: ICQ 8529894 (Chat, Voice & Video)

Response:

. If you truly wanted a safer GA system you would push for immediate, fullscale adoption of the USA rules, procedures and airspace management.

I’d reckon that’s rather questionable even after we spend $$millions on a full coverage radar system – after all, that’s what makes the US procedures viable. — Pete

Response:

Very big Snip. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dear God, no!  - "I’m from Canberra and I’m here to help you". In his book "Guns, Germs and Steel" Jared Diamond coins the term"kleptocracy" to refer to the advent of the politician/bureaucrat class. This was invented by these people so that they could be fed, housed, etc without doing any of the real work necessary to produce the goods and services wanted or needed. Not much has changed. "Us’" is the people paying, "them" is the people telling us what a great job they are doing for us while taking home their ill gotten gains. If you truly wanted a safer GA system you would push for immediate, fullscale adoption of the USA rules, procedures and airspace management. Despite much more traffic and far worse weather and visibility combined with lots of high terrain their GA record is better than ours. We must be doing something wrong. AOPA was an utterly pathetic and useless organisation before Dick Smith and Boyd Munro. If this is what you mean by "politicisation" I’m all for it. Recent AOPA elections have shown  what the membership thinks in no uncertain manner.  AOPA had  better get on a few cases again. Starting with military airspace. Why is it that the Australian armed forces need much more restricted airspace than other western countries with far more aircraft? Are our pilots less competent? If people like Dick and Boyd manage to upset a few bureacrats it’s only because of the awful possibility that the free lunches will stop. Mike Borgelt

Hi Mike and all, Mike, This is not directly to do with your post but a general question. Do you support Dick Smith and all his views all the time? Do you have any other points of view? Is AOPA the only organisation in the country that is in step and everyone else out of step? Do you have any proposals to put up? The above are not meant in a nasty way but I’m just trying to get a handle on matters. I am interested in you response. Cheers Boyd Moody

Response:

Rupert Murdoch and Kerry Packer are successful businessmen. Would you have them run a public organisation? No way.

Another big name in business, with political aspirations, comes to mind – he recently spoke to a bunch of accountants and got into a bit of trouble. How often, in Australia, does a noted public organisation leader leave and start a successful business career? It doesn’t happen.

Some can’t even run a piggery without leaving a trail of *#&^! — Pete

Response:

Boyd Moody said..  BM Is AOPA the only organisation in the country that is in step and  BM everyone else out of step? I’ve seen some critical points made about AOPA. In particular, complaints about members being fobbed off by the executive about issues. Yet, when such complaints are aired in this ng, there seems to be a marked lack of response by the people in general. Why should this be so? Martin .. An elephant never forgets. After all, what does it have to remember? Remove "land" from email address for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

Hi again Mike; You’re on a roll eh?

snip Maybe, but in relation to aviation administration, I think it more relevant to look at the total picture – his dealings with industry etc. Did Dick foresee the need for him to resign when he made public unsubstantiated allegations about BASI, a body who he needed to work with – intelligent? I’ve just been reading "Island in the Sky" by Piers Bizony. Its about building the International Space Station. Exactly the same attacks as on  Dick Smith were made on Dan Goldin(NASA administrator). Same letters to higher authority by disgruntled employees, disgruntled contractors whose gravy train suddenly went away etc.

Well then the analogy does not exist. snip The common thread amongst Dick’s critics seems to be "but things will change!"

No … it was that Dick’s reforms would not work because they were dangerous. And you forget that it is not just the Australian aviation industry saying it but ICAO and bodies like the CSIRO and BASI’s equivalents overseas who maintain that see and avoid is dangerous and not to be used as a primary means of separation. snip It’s quite easy to stop any change. 1. During consultation agree to the proposed changes. 2. Just before implementation date, raise further problems and demand changes which greatly complicate the new system with little time then left for education. This nicely confuses everyone. 3. When the inevitable incidents happen blame them on the changes and demand that the changes be abandoned. This seem to sum up the airspace trial.

No way. IMHO CASA and AA knowingly mislead the industry (and the public) and it was only when the airline industry showed incontrovertible proof that things were not as Dick and Mick put it, that changes had to be made at the last moment to try and keep the trial alive. The goal posts kept moving. In the end it was just band-aid on band-aid and no-one knew what the hell was going on. There will always be incidents, however, some are easily preventable. It is those which types of incidents which increased, they posed the most danger and could not be tolerated. BASI are very conscious of the implementation problems and of cost. (So are we …) Implementation was part of the problem, costs likewise. You seem to believe that AS2000 was going to save you money?? What garbage Paul. BASI doesn’t take any notice of the costs of its recommendations. They aren’t responsible for spending the money. No doubt making these recommendations  gives people warm fuzzy feelings and justifies their jobs.

I stand by my original statement and wonder how you would know otherwise. I have put proposals to BASI and while they have acknowledged the merit of the proposal, costs were a factor that was considered dominant in the overall conclusion. BASI does not have to decide cost priorities, perhaps that is what you meant, but in my experience,  they are certainly conscious of cost limitations on the safety of the system, and can also **advise** on where the safety dollar should be spent. The roads would be a lot safer if every vehicle had someone with a red flag walking in front of it. Might even find employment for a few FSOs or ATC personnel. Dont think so – it would be too dangerous. Anyway, no doubt there would be some pilots – I mean drivers, who did not want to follow rules or who had no sense of community responsibility and would run into all those red flag holders because they want to drive unrestricted. Sound familiar? You mean the red flag idea would be rightly seen as completely stupid and impractical by most people. Current air traffic control is not actually much better. Technical means exist by which ALL enroute ATC could be eliminated. Don’t hold your breath waiting for it to happen, though as vested interests will see to that it doesn’t.

I think current ATC is much better than you give ‘em credit for Mike. If you were to fly with a professional airline you would see that they believe ATC, while not perfect, are at the moment, indispensable, mind you – you’re starting to sing my tune … bring on GPS datalinks and freeflight …. but there are start up costs Mike! snip Just some comments by John Wood of the CASA pilots trade union and others in the media since Dick resigned.

You mean edited comments … heavily edited by an unbalanced program. You could tell it was going to be that way the moment you saw the girlish smitten response from Liz Jackson at being given a freebie … standard DS practice isn’t it? And Mike surely you were close to vomiting when the birthday cake came out? I thought 4 Corners had a reputation for handling indepth reporting of difficult and serious issues. However, lets hope their professionalism allows the truth to come out now. snip If you truly wanted a safer GA system you would push for immediate, fullscale adoption of the USA rules, procedures and airspace management. Despite much more traffic and far worse weather and visibility combined with lots of high terrain their GA record is better than ours. We must be doing something wrong.

Is there a significant difference in accident/incident rates between the US and Australia? Its like comparing apples with oranges in some respects  … anyway, I think we can do better and so does the USA who also are trying to "harmonise" with ICAO airspace. (Dick was not doing that) How does Australia’s pilot training and navaid availability stack up against the US? Should we ignore the lessons from the US mid-airs? What is the rate of VCA’s over there? These are all factors that have to be dealt with. AOPA was an utterly pathetic and useless organisation before Dick Smith and Boyd Munro.

snip So what have they achieved now Mike? While they antagonize the rest of industry with publicity stunts and lies, they will never achieve what you are after. The Free in G Trial is a case in point. Mike Borgelt

Paul Groves ICQ 16709877

Response:

Hi Mike, folks; Building up a couple of successful multi-million dollar businesses(the first from nothing) and planning and successfully executing various aviation records is proof enough for me of foresight and intelligence. Maybe, but in relation to aviation administration, I think it more relevant to look at the total picture – his dealings with industry etc. Did Dick foresee the need for him to resign when he made public unsubstantiated allegations about BASI, a body who he needed to work with – intelligent?

I’ve just been reading "Island in the Sky" by Piers Bizony. Its about building the International Space Station. Exactly the same attacks as on  Dick Smith were made on Dan Goldin(NASA administrator). Same letters to higher authority by disgruntled employees, disgruntled contractors whose gravy train suddenly went away etc. Goldin is reputed to have said "this agency doesn’t exist for the benefit of its employees. It exists to do a job for the nation". As a result of his efforts the organisation still exists(it may not have otherwise) and is doing things. The common thread amongst Dick’s critics seems to be "but things will change!" Personally I think it time that CASA, Airservices and BASI were shaken up and required to justify their existence. It’s too easy to carry on as usual. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The public record is surely enough evidence for point 2 including the numerous posts by you, Paul. Bet you wouldn’t enjoy personal attacks like you and your mates have been making on Dick Smith. I dont follow you. Which public record are you talking about Mike?  Isn’t it true that Dick has attacked everyone who has disagreed with him? Hasn’t he used "privilege" to do so?  Mind you, I am not saying that just because he has done this, that it excuses anyone else. I admit to having difficulty, trying to keep personalities out of it, but in the end, Dick’s personality was part of the problem. That is not to condemn him, but only to recognise that the problems need a different leadership "style", one that can take account of expert advice from others, stick to due process, so as a real solution may be arrived at. I think if you were fair now, you would see that the arguments put up by the airlines and I, against Dick’s position and AS2000 – have all been substantive and rarely personal.

It’s quite easy to stop any change. 1. During consultation agree to the proposed changes. 2. Just before implementation date, raise further problems and demand changes which greatly complicate the new system with little time then left for education. This nicely confuses everyone. 3. When the inevitable incidents happen blame them on the changes and demand that the changes be abandoned. This seem to sum up the airspace trial. Assuming for a split second that Dick was attacked personally, the easiest way to stop those attacks, would have been to answer them with fact. Dick had more than ample opportunity yet that did not happen. I and others have sought factual answers from Dick, CASA and AA? They never came. The third point is apt. It’s very easy to make safety recommendations when you aren’t responsible for implementation or cost. BASI are very conscious of the implementation problems and of cost. (So are we …) Implementation was part of the problem, costs likewise. You seem to believe that AS2000 was going to save you money??

What garbage Paul. BASI doesn’t take any notice of the costs of its recommendations. They aren’t responsible for spending the money. No doubt making these recommendations  gives people warm fuzzy feelings and justifies their jobs. The roads would be a lot safer if every vehicle had someone with a red flag walking in front of it. Might even find employment for a few FSOs or ATC personnel. Dont think so – it would be too dangerous. Anyway, no doubt there would be some pilots – I mean drivers, who did not want to follow rules or who had no sense of community responsibility and would run into all those red flag holders because they want to drive unrestricted. Sound familiar?

You mean the red flag idea would be rightly seen as completely stupid and impractical by most people. Current air traffic control is not actually much better. Technical means exist by which ALL enroute ATC could be eliminated. Don’t hold your breath waiting for it to happen, though as vested interests will see to that it doesn’t. Incidentally now that Dick has resigned I see the story seems to be that it was his style not substance that caused all the "problems". I guess there’s just no putting air safety in front of a few bureaucratic hurt feelings. What gives you that idea? As far as I can see it was both style and substance (lack thereof) which caused the problems. In fact had due process been followed, the ensuing solution ( substance) would have made the style much easier to cope with.

Just some comments by John Wood of the CASA pilots trade union and others in the media since Dick resigned. After going to a "safety seminar" in Brisbane about 3 years ago where the eccentric from BASI made a presentation and a hall full of adults were told by a high ranking CASA bureaucrat that we would all kill ourselves if it wasn’t for CASA’s rules I don’t go to them anymore. Sounds bad and I sympathise with Industry here. We also have to put up with that sort of rubbish too. I guess the important question is – do you still follow the rules? If not, well, we may need to have them changed, so forums like that have a role. Dont throw the baby out with the bath water.

It was truly pathetic. I and most other experienced pilots will follow the rules(which rules? all of them? Does anyone know all of the rules well enough to be sure he/she isn’t breaking any?) until they endanger the safety of the operation, then commonsense and experience will take over. The rules you can’t break are the laws  of physics. Unfortunately inexperienced pilots will probably follow the rules and/or die trying. How many people have died in Australia because they were too scared of being given a hard time to yell for help? – too scared to carry out a pecautionary landing while there was time? One of the respondents to this thread implied Dick Smith was stupid because he got lost while flying his helicopter in the UK and executed a precautionary landing to find out where he was. Sounds like good airmanship and common sense to me. It’s actually pretty easy to get lost in an unfamiliar environment at low level in poor visibility. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -snip By the way I don’t believe that the airlines should be the only ones consulted about changes to the way aviation is run in this country as you seem to indicate in another of your posts – I bet you wouldn’t like it if large commercial interests to be explicitly given absolute priority when laws are made in this country. (not to say it doesn’t happen – it’s just not explicit -doesn’t play well with those pesky voters) Mike Borgelt Mike – please read it again. It was never suggested that the laws should be made to provide absolute priority for the airlines or other commercial interests. If anything, I have, on many occasions, argued that assistance and priority be given to the weakest link, that section with the highest accident/incident rate. It seems that there is a "them and us" mentality in your argument. This division, caused by the politicisation of AOPA, CASA etc has cost everyone a lot of money and risk.

Dear God, no!  - "I’m from Canberra and I’m here to help you". In his book "Guns, Germs and Steel" Jared Diamond coins the term"kleptocracy" to refer to the advent of the politician/bureaucrat class. This was invented by these people so that they could be fed, housed, etc without doing any of the real work necessary to produce the goods and services wanted or needed. Not much has changed. "Us’" is the people paying, "them" is the people telling us what a great job they are doing for us while taking home their ill gotten gains. If you truly wanted a safer GA system you would push for immediate, fullscale adoption of the USA rules, procedures and airspace management. Despite much more traffic and far worse weather and visibility combined with lots of high terrain their GA record is better than ours. We must be doing something wrong. AOPA was an utterly pathetic and useless organisation before Dick Smith and Boyd Munro. If this is what you mean by "politicisation" I’m all for it. Recent AOPA elections have shown  what the membership thinks in no uncertain manner.  AOPA had  better get on a few cases again. Starting with military airspace. Why is it that the Australian armed forces need much more restricted airspace than other western countries with far more aircraft? Are our pilots less competent? If people like Dick and Boyd manage to upset a few bureacrats it’s only because of the awful possibility that the free lunches will stop. Mike Borgelt

Response:

I can’t answer for Gregg but I can see why he said it and I agree with him. Building up a couple of successful multi-million dollar businesses As far as Aust. Geo. goes, he said the people that subscribe to it will own it. I know of at least two people that took out subscriptions on that note only to get sold out by Dick years later.

Without knowing the context it’s impossible to make real comment. Then again it’s the sort of cheap shot that is typical of Dick’s critics. Care to explicitly accuse Dick of unethical business practices here?. I didn’t think so. (the first from nothing) and planning and successfully executing various aviation records is proof enough for me of foresight and intelligence. Flying his helicopter in the UK he got lost, so he landed on a road to read the road signs. Two cops stopped and were looking at him dumb founded. Of course Dick was real smart. Wasn’t he.

Assuming it wasn’t a set up to add interest to the movie a pilot in a helicopter making a precautionary landing after becoming unsure of his position is surely unexceptional. Have you ever flown in the UK? The visibility is nearly always bad and there are lots of villages which look pretty much the same. Come to think of it do you actually fly? Hold a pilot’s license? Own an aircraft or part of one?  public record is surely enough evidence for point 2 including the numerous posts by you, Paul. Bet you wouldn’t enjoy personal attacks like you and your mates have been making on Dick Smith. When you are in the public eye, and you claim to have the ANSWER, you got to expect a certain amount of flack. The third point is apt. It’s very easy to make safety recommendations when you aren’t responsible for implementation or cost. The roads would be a lot safer if every vehicle had someone with a red flag walking in front of it. Might even find employment for a few FSOs or ATC personnel. The fact is Dick laid off a lot of ATC staff, only to recruit more. And after it all, has Dick really saved the taxpayer a single cent?

I and others like me sure pay less fuel tax than before. Mike Borgelt

Response:

Exactly, what do you think of  politics and its impact on Australian aviation safety?

For me, I believe that Australian aviation is under to much restriction from the government and are unableto self regualte properly. There have been many times where governments say that they have given quite alot of freedom to to the industry but exactly, what freedom? Australia is suppose to have the best aviation safety system in the world. If you look at the number of accicdents occurring  in Australia there is very little, but that doesn’t neccessary means that its safe. Confuse.

Response:

Hi Mike, folks;

Building up a couple of successful multi-million dollar businesses(the first from nothing) and planning and successfully executing various aviation records is proof enough for me of foresight and intelligence.

Maybe, but in relation to aviation administration, I think it more relevant to look at the total picture – his dealings with industry etc. Did Dick foresee the need for him to resign when he made public unsubstantiated allegations about BASI, a body who he needed to work with – intelligent? The public record is surely enough evidence for point 2 including the numerous posts by you, Paul. Bet you wouldn’t enjoy personal attacks like you and your mates have been making on Dick Smith.

I dont follow you. Which public record are you talking about Mike?  Isn’t it true that Dick has attacked everyone who has disagreed with him? Hasn’t he used "privilege" to do so?  Mind you, I am not saying that just because he has done this, that it excuses anyone else. I admit to having difficulty, trying to keep personalities out of it, but in the end, Dick’s personality was part of the problem. That is not to condemn him, but only to recognise that the problems need a different leadership "style", one that can take account of expert advice from others, stick to due process, so as a real solution may be arrived at. I think if you were fair now, you would see that the arguments put up by the airlines and I, against Dick’s position and AS2000 – have all been substantive and rarely personal. Assuming for a split second that Dick was attacked personally, the easiest way to stop those attacks, would have been to answer them with fact. Dick had more than ample opportunity yet that did not happen. I and others have sought factual answers from Dick, CASA and AA? They never came. The third point is apt. It’s very easy to make safety recommendations when you aren’t responsible for implementation or cost.

BASI are very conscious of the implementation problems and of cost. (So are we …) Implementation was part of the problem, costs likewise. You seem to believe that AS2000 was going to save you money?? The roads would be a lot safer if every vehicle had someone with a red flag walking in front of it. Might even find employment for a few FSOs or ATC personnel.

Dont think so – it would be too dangerous. Anyway, no doubt there would be some pilots – I mean drivers, who did not want to follow rules or who had no sense of community responsibility and would run into all those red flag holders because they want to drive unrestricted. Sound familiar? Incidentally now that Dick has resigned I see the story seems to be that it was his style not substance that caused all the "problems". I guess there’s just no putting air safety in front of a few bureaucratic hurt feelings.

What gives you that idea? As far as I can see it was both style and substance (lack thereof) which caused the problems. In fact had due process been followed, the ensuing solution ( substance) would have made the style much easier to cope with. After going to a "safety seminar" in Brisbane about 3 years ago where the eccentric from BASI made a presentation and a hall full of adults were told by a high ranking CASA bureaucrat that we would all kill ourselves if it wasn’t for CASA’s rules I don’t go to them anymore.

Sounds bad and I sympathise with Industry here. We also have to put up with that sort of rubbish too. I guess the important question is – do you still follow the rules? If not, well, we may need to have them changed, so forums like that have a role. Dont throw the baby out with the bath water. snip By the way I don’t believe that the airlines should be the only ones consulted about changes to the way aviation is run in this country as you seem to indicate in another of your posts – I bet you wouldn’t like it if large commercial interests to be explicitly given absolute priority when laws are made in this country. (not to say it doesn’t happen – it’s just not explicit -doesn’t play well with those pesky voters) Mike Borgelt

Mike – please read it again. It was never suggested that the laws should be made to provide absolute priority for the airlines or other commercial interests. If anything, I have, on many occasions, argued that assistance and priority be given to the weakest link, that section with the highest accident/incident rate. It seems that there is a "them and us" mentality in your argument. This division, caused by the politicisation of AOPA, CASA etc has cost everyone a lot of money and risk. Thanks for your reply, cheers Paul Groves ICQ 16709877

Response:

<snip Building up a couple of successful multi-million dollar businesses(the first from nothing) and planning and successfully executing various aviation records is proof enough for me of foresight and intelligence.

<more snip Successfully executed. I suppose if it’s the end result that youre after, then I suppose you have it. But the execution of Dick’s feats seem to have been more along the lines of keystone cops at times… 1983 – Dicks flight around Australia and I was listening out on the Amateur bands one day, when lo and behold, I respond to a call from a Dick about to land at a spot in the NT, didn’t know where he was, but he reported that he was OK, and could I phone Pip and let her know. . This I duly did. Perhaps I should now charge him for the use of my service back then and add the interest… might come to a reasonably sizable amount by my reckoning, but that’s what you get when the user pays. I also suppose not all pilots are able to use non-approved amateur equipment in aircraft as a backup. my thoughts on the matter (soapbox mode off) marc

Response:

I can’t answer for Gregg but I can see why he said it and I agree with him. Building up a couple of successful multi-million dollar businesses

As far as Aust. Geo. goes, he said the people that subscribe to it will own it. I know of at least two people that took out subscriptions on that note only to get sold out by Dick years later. (the first from nothing) and planning and successfully executing various aviation records is proof enough for me of foresight and intelligence.

Flying his helicopter in the UK he got lost, so he landed on a road to read the road signs. Two cops stopped and were looking at him dumb founded. Of course Dick was real smart. Wasn’t he. The public record is surely enough evidence for point 2 including the numerous posts by you, Paul. Bet you wouldn’t enjoy personal attacks like you and your mates have been making on Dick Smith.

When you are in the public eye, and you claim to have the ANSWER, you got to expect a certain amount of flack. The third point is apt. It’s very easy to make safety recommendations when you aren’t responsible for implementation or cost. The roads would be a lot safer if every vehicle had someone with a red flag walking in front of it. Might even find employment for a few FSOs or ATC personnel.

The fact is Dick laid off a lot of ATC staff, only to recruit more. And after it all, has Dick really saved the taxpayer a single cent?

Response:

What brings you to these **3** conclusions? snip …. someone with foresight and intelligence (**1**) tries to drag the Australian bureaucracy into the 20th (let alone 21st) century. (Snip)  … leaving the heel-draggers to settle back into their slovenly ways. (**2**) Thank God BASI is not running road transport or we would all be employing blokes with red flags to lead us around. (**3**)

I can’t answer for Gregg but I can see why he said it and I agree with him. Building up a couple of successful multi-million dollar businesses(the first from nothing) and planning and successfully executing various aviation records is proof enough for me of foresight and intelligence. The public record is surely enough evidence for point 2 including the numerous posts by you, Paul. Bet you wouldn’t enjoy personal attacks like you and your mates have been making on Dick Smith. The third point is apt. It’s very easy to make safety recommendations when you aren’t responsible for implementation or cost. The roads would be a lot safer if every vehicle had someone with a red flag walking in front of it. Might even find employment for a few FSOs or ATC personnel. Incidently now that Dick has resigned I see the story seems to be that it was his style not substance that caused all the "problems". I guess there’s just no putting air safety in front of a few bureaucratic hurt feelings. After going to a "safety seminar" in Brisbane about 3 years ago where the eccentric from BASI made a presentation and a hall full of adults were told by a high ranking CASA bureaucrat that we would all kill ourselves if it wasn’t for CASA’s rules I don’t go to them anymore. The most intelligent thing said at that seminar was the comment of "Bullshit" from the back when the same high ranking CASA official told us that CASA was a totally different organisation from CAA. By the way I don’t believe that the airlines should be the only ones consulted about changes to the way aviation is run in this country as you seem to indicate in another of your posts – I bet you wouldn’t like it if large commercial interests to be explicitly given absolute priority when laws are made in this country. (not to say it doesn’t happen – it’s just not explicit -doesn’t play well with those pesky voters) Mike Borgelt

Response:

No. It’s a tragedy. But that’s what happens when someone with foresight and intelligence tries to drag the Australian bureaucracy into the 20th (let alone 21st) century. Sad to see Dick go, leaving the heel-draggers to settle back into their slovenly ways. Thank God BASI is not running road transport or we would all be employing blokes with red flags to lead us around.

Response:

No. It’s a tragedy. But that’s what happens when someone with foresight and intelligence tries to drag the Australian bureaucracy into the 20th (let alone 21st) century. Sad to see Dick go, leaving the heel-draggers to settle back into their slovenly ways. Thank God BASI is not running road transport or we would all be employing blokes with red flags to lead us around.

Oh, I get it – quiet evening so why not try a little trolling? — Pete

Response:

What brings you to these **3** conclusions?

snip …. someone with foresight and intelligence (**1**) tries to drag the Australian bureaucracy into the 20th (let alone 21st) century. (Snip)  … leaving the heel-draggers to settle back into their slovenly ways. (**2**) Thank God BASI is not running road transport or we would all be employing blokes with red flags to lead us around. (**3**)

Cheers Paul Groves ICQ 16709877

Response:

: No. It’s a tragedy. : But that’s what happens when someone with foresight and intelligence tries : to drag the Australian bureaucracy into the 20th (let alone 21st) century. : Sad to see Dick go, leaving the heel-draggers to settle back into their : slovenly ways. : Thank God BASI is not running road transport or we would all be employing : blokes with red flags to lead us around. : : BWAHAAAAAAHAHAHAAAAA! Thanks, I needed a good gut laugh. — Cheers,  | University of Newcastle          |               ~~~| /~~  |  | New South Wales, AUSTRALIA       |                   o   o              http://u2.newcastle.edu.au/~mgjdh

Response:

is everybody happy?!                                /

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Question:

Hi Everyone: Well, I guess we should be grateful that the media is taking an interest as the handicapped community has become quite popular. Bill aimed at helping disabled keep benefits WASHINGTON (Reuters Health)–Legislation aimed at making it easier for the disabled to hold jobs and keep their Medicare or Medicaid coverage advanced a step Thursday at a hearing of the Senate Finance Committee. The bill would permit beneficiaries of the Social Security Disability Income (SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) programs to purchase Medicare and Medicaid coverage if they leave the disability rolls to take jobs. Currently, the risk of losing health insurance is a problem for disabled people seeking jobs, said Sen. James Jeffords (R-Vt.), a sponsor of the measure. "Individuals with significant disabilities, who meet the rigorous eligibility criteria of the Social Security disability programs cannot often get reasonably priced, appropriate health insurance coverage from the private sector," he said. "These individuals can only get health insurance from the government, and the government gives it to them only if they stay home, or at best, work a minimal amount." President Clinton in his State of the Union address in January singled out the "Work Incentives Improvement Act" as legislation that Congress should pass. The first panel speaking on behalf of the legislation consisted of Sen. Edward Kennedy, (D-Mass.), one of the Senate’s leading liberal members, and former Sen. Bob Dole, the 1996 Republican presidential nominee, a testament to the proposal’s bipartisan backing. Dole, a longtime advocate for those with disabilities, said "access to healthcare remains an enormous hurdle confronting people with disabilities who want to work." According to the General Accounting Office, less than 0.5 percent of SSDI beneficiaries leave the rolls each year for jobs. One estimate found that if this increased by only one percentage point, the federal government would save $3.5 billion in benefits costs over those individuals’ lifetimes. But Dole said that the potential to save money was not the main reason the bill enjoys such broad bipartisan backing. Rather, he told the committee, "there’s a recognition that nothing costs the government more than keeping bright, creative people from doing what they want to do." Life is no brief candle to me. It is sort of a splendid torch which I have got hold of for a moment, and I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations. — George Bernard Shaw Laura K.* Life is no brief candle to me. It is sort of a splendid torch which I have got hold of for a moment, and I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations. — George Bernard Shaw Laura K.*

Response:

That is very nice; however it is somewhat (completely?) worthless until they cover medications or some part thereof. — Founder: Church of Transcendental Solipsism. "Laura K." <Nygab…@AOL.COM> wrote in message

news:67489f6d.36bcad68@aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Everyone: >Well, I guess we should be grateful that the media is taking an interest as >the handicapped community has become quite popular. >Bill aimed at helping disabled keep benefits >WASHINGTON (Reuters Health)–Legislation aimed at making it easier for the >disabled to hold jobs and keep their Medicare or Medicaid coverage advanced a >step Thursday at a hearing of the Senate Finance Committee. >The bill would permit beneficiaries of the Social Security Disability Income >(SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) programs to purchase Medicare >and Medicaid coverage if they leave the disability rolls to take jobs. >Currently, the risk of losing health insurance is a problem for disabled >people seeking jobs, said Sen. James Jeffords (R-Vt.), a sponsor of the >measure. >"Individuals with significant disabilities, who meet the rigorous eligibility >criteria of the Social Security disability programs cannot often get >reasonably priced, appropriate health insurance coverage from the private >sector," he said. "These individuals can only get health insurance from the >government, and the government gives it to them only if they stay home, or at >best, work a minimal amount." >President Clinton in his State of the Union address in January singled out the >"Work Incentives Improvement Act" as legislation that Congress should pass. >The first panel speaking on behalf of the legislation consisted of Sen. Edward >Kennedy, (D-Mass.), one of the Senate’s leading liberal members, and former >Sen. Bob Dole, the 1996 Republican presidential nominee, a testament to the >proposal’s bipartisan backing. >Dole, a longtime advocate for those with disabilities, said "access to >healthcare remains an enormous hurdle confronting people with disabilities who >want to work." >According to the General Accounting Office, less than 0.5 percent of SSDI >beneficiaries leave the rolls each year for jobs. One estimate found that if >this increased by only one percentage point, the federal government would save >$3.5 billion in benefits costs over those individuals’ lifetimes. >But Dole said that the potential to save money was not the main reason the >bill enjoys such broad bipartisan backing. Rather, he told the committee, >"there’s a recognition that nothing costs the government more than keeping >bright, creative people from doing what they want to do." >Life is no brief candle to me. It is sort of a splendid torch >which I have got hold of for a moment, and I want to make it burn >as brightly as possible before handing it on to future >generations. >– George Bernard Shaw >Laura K.* >Life is no brief candle to me. It is sort of a splendid torch >which I have got hold of for a moment, and I want to make it burn >as brightly as possible before handing it on to future >generations. >– George Bernard Shaw >Laura K.*

Response:

So much for the goverment protecting disabled employees.  I had a government job, was diagnosed with MS, was told that they didn’t have a job to accomidate my illness and "off the record", I should file for disability. -Martin   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Laura K. wrote: > Hi Everyone: > Well, I guess we should be grateful that the media is taking an interest as > the handicapped community has become quite popular. > Bill aimed at helping disabled keep benefits > WASHINGTON (Reuters Health)–Legislation aimed at making it easier for the > disabled to hold jobs and keep their Medicare or Medicaid coverage advanced a > step Thursday at a hearing of the Senate Finance Committee. > The bill would permit beneficiaries of the Social Security Disability Income > (SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) programs to purchase Medicare > and Medicaid coverage if they leave the disability rolls to take jobs. > Currently, the risk of losing health insurance is a problem for disabled > people seeking jobs, said Sen. James Jeffords (R-Vt.), a sponsor of the > measure. > "Individuals with significant disabilities, who meet the rigorous eligibility > criteria of the Social Security disability programs cannot often get > reasonably priced, appropriate health insurance coverage from the private > sector," he said. "These individuals can only get health insurance from the > government, and the government gives it to them only if they stay home, or at > best, work a minimal amount." > President Clinton in his State of the Union address in January singled out the > "Work Incentives Improvement Act" as legislation that Congress should pass. > The first panel speaking on behalf of the legislation consisted of Sen. Edward > Kennedy, (D-Mass.), one of the Senate’s leading liberal members, and former > Sen. Bob Dole, the 1996 Republican presidential nominee, a testament to the > proposal’s bipartisan backing. > Dole, a longtime advocate for those with disabilities, said "access to > healthcare remains an enormous hurdle confronting people with disabilities who > want to work." > According to the General Accounting Office, less than 0.5 percent of SSDI > beneficiaries leave the rolls each year for jobs. One estimate found that if > this increased by only one percentage point, the federal government would save > $3.5 billion in benefits costs over those individuals’ lifetimes. > But Dole said that the potential to save money was not the main reason the > bill enjoys such broad bipartisan backing. Rather, he told the committee, > "there’s a recognition that nothing costs the government more than keeping > bright, creative people from doing what they want to do." > Life is no brief candle to me. It is sort of a splendid torch > which I have got hold of for a moment, and I want to make it burn > as brightly as possible before handing it on to future > generations. > — George Bernard Shaw > Laura K.* > Life is no brief candle to me. It is sort of a splendid torch > which I have got hold of for a moment, and I want to make it burn > as brightly as possible before handing it on to future > generations. > — George Bernard Shaw > Laura K.*

Response:

Question:

 [snip]   He says it’s not the money…but what if I should become "burned out" on stitching before I get to them??

start them.  Now after  .  .  . — Karin "Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend.  Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read." – Groucho Marx

Response:

This is exactly why I’ve resisted the offer of DH to use Quicken and do our finances.  I hate paying the bills and balancing the checkbook, but I also don’t like to be required to keep receipts and explain purchases in order to allot them to some spending category.  I like the lunch equivalency though — I work close to home so I usually eat at home (have to let out the dogs anyway).  He commutes and eats out.  I think I’ll use this theory next time this comes up!

I use Quicken myself, It’s not easy to ‘fess up to the computer after a textile binge, but it does help keep in perspective just how much I’ve spent on stash items. I find that if I’m not scrupulous about entering receipts every few days I get <ahem optomistic about how much I’ve spent so far this month. Those little budget bars that show how far into the month and how far into the budget you are are annoying, but necessary The fiancee and I haven’t straightened out all the details of who is doing the accounting, but we have agreed to a ‘your money, my money, our money’ scheme. We should both have spending money for our hobbies that we don’t have to account for to each other. — Liz Stokes         |            Hey! Where am I going? Ilaine de Cameron  |    And what am I doing in this handbasket?                    |     —

Response:

<snip I use Quicken myself, It’s not easy to ‘fess up to the computer after a textile binge, but it does help keep in perspective just how much I’ve spent on stash items.

<snip The other problem with allocating your stitching purchases in Quicken is when you see that you spend as much of your income on stitching stuff as on auto insurance. Yikes!  :-) Deb — Current stitching projects: Canvas Stitch Sampler, The Castle, Chief Seattle’s Testimony, Good Neighbors, Gomshall Flower Shop, Second Sunday….

Response:

I realized then and there I’m either going to have to marry Keith or kill him cuz’ he knows too much about me!

Forget about Love – this is the reason my DH & I tied the knot 15 years ago and what keeps us together to this day!  Just kidding; but it is a contributing factor.  That, and the knowledge that no one else would tolerate our habits Judy

Response:

I got a divorce, too, but that was because of UFOs, not sneaking.  Then I married this terrific dude who finds great patterns and buys them for me.  He’s always asking when I’m going to the craft store.  He smokes 2 packs of cancer sticks a day, so he truly does out spend me now, and when the old "C" hits, he will have really passed me.  I wish it were even, tho!  He’s too terrific to envision life without! (To all of you skeptics, we’ve been together 9 years, and that’s NOT long enuf!) Tere Fredericks

Response:

I, too, have bought several projects to work on. My DH was a little surprised to know that I have even one new project in my drawer (he doesn’t know that there are really three new projects in my drawer) . He says it’s not the money…but what if I should become "burned out" on stitching before I get to them?? HA! I’m so glad I found this group. Laura

Response:

While I was chuckling about the responses to this thread, my SO came back into the room to see what I was laughing at.  I asked him if I was going to have to "sneak" my needlework purchases past him after he and I start sharing a house (which could be as early as Spring).  He asked why I’d have to.  I told him I wasn’t sure if he realized just how much money I spend on supplies.  He said he thought so, that’s why I am always broke. I realized then and there I’m either going to have to marry Keith or kill him cuz’ he knows too much about me! "There can be no friendship where ther is no freedom.  Friendship loves free air, and will not be fenced up in straight and narrow enclosures." William Penn JoAnn (a fellow Pennsylvanian)

Response:

My DH and I are honest with each other.We are up front with the things

Sometimes honesty is best….my DH and I have an agreement that anything less than $100 we don’t need to consult the other on.  Of course, a trip to a needlework store 20 miles north ran me $97, so that was pushing it, but usually i’m pretty good about keeping myself in-budget.  He doesn’t quite understand why I do needlework, but he doens’t mind because it keeps me out of his hair when he plays whatever his latest computer game is!  (Anyway, he and I both know I spend far less on craft goodies than he spends on his computer!) I’m so proud of myself….earlier this week I finished off a nearly-abandoned UFO I started 3 years ago!  I think it will be a long time before I do any crewel piece with that blasted "long-and-short" stitch!  I decided my goal for this year was to finish off all my UFOs, so I only have one left, other than "The Castle" Belinda —

Response:

says… Is there anyone else out there who has to sneak? — Karin

I don’t think most of us *have* to sneak, but I think many of us do. The problem is *them*, not us.  Those that don’t have "the disease" don’t understand the power of the symptoms!!  We are envisioning the pride and satisfaction of completion, while they only see another bag of "stuff." However, I have found that if, when questioned, you reply, "Oh, that.   That’s the one I bought about 2 weeks ago.  You remember me showing it to you, dear," they are generally don’t want to admit that 2 wks ago, they weren’t paying attention (obviously) cause they can’t remember being shown anything, and they just drop the whole subject.  (This also works with dress purchases!) My poor DH gets the double-whammy, as daughter is an avid stitcher also, will be 16 next month and has 10 (!) years experience already and has her own separate stash.   Pat

Response:

I started this thread so now I have to defend myself.  I know I shouldn’t have to sneak, but I think he does it too.  I *know* DH sneaks miscellaneous computer purchases (although it’s hard to sneak the big ones – after all, I’m the one that pays the bills and balances the checkbook). And, there’s no logical reason for his sneaking either because  *I* wouldn’t even dream of making a comment about *another* indispensable computer paraphernalia item that does some additional miraculous thing to make this thing bigger, faster, better.  (All I care about is that it does what I want it to do when I want it to do it – without comments.) Other DH sneaking items are bags of chocolate bars or Hershey kisses.  I don’t know if he sneaks these because he thinks I will think it’s bad, or if he thinks I will want him to share. — Karin "Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend.  Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read." – Groucho Marx – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My SO and I have an agreement. If it’s something that we truly want, no questions asked. However, I have returned from Borders on occasion and buried the trash sack so that he wouldn’t even know that I’ve been. And yes, He has sneaked comic books when I *wasn’t* looking. Actually, never sneaked the books, just didn’t say how much! And sadly, his are worth more than mine today! Donna

Response:

This is exactly why I’ve resisted the offer of DH to use Quicken and do our finances.  I hate paying the bills and balancing the checkbook, but I also don’t like to be required to keep receipts and explain purchases in order to allot them to some spending category.  I like the lunch equivalency though — I work close to home so I usually eat at home (have to let out the dogs anyway).  He commutes and eats out.  I think I’ll use this theory next time this comes up! — Karin "Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend.  Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read." – Groucho Marx – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My DH keeps the checkbook and uses quicken so I have to turn in my receipts.  So i use plastic and with any luck the bill won’t come for a month.  Actually, his toy is more costly than all of mine, even mu UFO’s and USO’s included, ( it’s a 1967 Austin Healey 3000,) so he doesn’t say much about my stitching habit! — Claudia, A Stitch in Time Saves Sanity Mine DH never notices and I keep the check book.  But on the occasions he does decide to ask how I have money to spend on xstitch and tell him we are broke, I have decided that since he eats lunch out every day ($35-$50 a week)  I can spend that much on stitching before he can complain.  He didn’t say much when I told him this.  Sharon

Response:

I got rid of this problem entirely…it’s called divorce.<VBG  Of course, this was not the reason but it sure is nice to know what money I have to spend and to be able to spend it the way I want to.  Ann – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mine DH never notices and I keep the check book.  But on the occasions he does decide to ask how I have money to spend on xstitch and tell him we are broke, I have decided that since he eats lunch out every day ($35-$50 a week)  I can spend that much on stitching before he can complain.  He didn’t say much when I told him this.  Sharon

Response:

I had lunch with a friend of mine the other day — I knew she stitched but she has apparently only recently caught "the disease".  Well, here we were, two professional women, talking about how we had to sneak our stitching purchases into the house!  I don’t think either of our husbands would ever complain about the amount of money spent (better not!  But, we both wanted to avoid the question why we were buying "more stuff"  when we hadn’t even started (much less finished) all of the other stuff we had already brought home.  I told her about rctn and UFOs and USOs and she was ROFL! Is there anyone else out there who has to sneak? — Karin "Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend.  Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read." – Groucho Marx

Response:

I had lunch with a friend of mine the other day — I knew she stitched but she has apparently only recently caught "the disease".  Well, here we were, two professional women, talking about how we had to sneak our stitching purchases into the house! snip Is there anyone else out there who has to sneak? — Karin

How pathetic is this?– I live alone and I still sneak the stuff into the house!!! My SO never says a word when he sees new charts lying around (no, he doesn’t live with me but does spend a great deal of time at my house) but I feel guilty anyway!!!! My name is Kris… and I’m a stitchaholic. I’m off to order some beads and flower thread! hahahhahahaha (maniacal laughter) And no one can stop me do you hear?! No one!!!!! — Kristyne Jouwsma (aka Addmirall) "…he that stands or walks on slippery ground needs nothing but his own weight to throw him down." Jonathan Edwards

Response:

I myself seem to have to sneak, then about 6 months after I have had my new acquisitions, my husband notices.  He doesnt always understand the gadgets that are needed

Response:

Mine DH never notices and I keep the check book.  But on the occasions he does decide to ask how I have money to spend on xstitch and tell him we are broke, I have decided that since he eats lunch out every day ($35-$50 a week)  I can spend that much on stitching before he can complain.  He didn’t say much when I told him this.  Sharon

Response:

Well, here we were, two professional women, talking about how we had to sneak our stitching purchases into the house!

I don’t sneak, because I don’t have enough money to buy what I want (someday, someday), but this reminds me a a woman who used to shop in the store I managed.  She would have me hold the items purchased on her lunch hours until Saturday when her husband was out playing golf.  She would then sneak them in the house and put them at the back of the closet. After a few weeks she would wear the items and say "What this?  I’ve had it for some time now."  :-)  What a hoot! I’ll just stitch away on my one project at a time, thank you…….oops, Mary in Gainesville  _  _           _                     |__|

Response:

I can’t keep my mouth shut a moment longer <grin. I just have one question: Do any of your DH’s have to sneak?  Come on ladies…you’re hard working, income earning, contributing members of society.  What are you afraid of?  Karen     (no flames please…tongue planted in cheek)

Response:

Good idea!  Thanks.  Now that I stay at home with our 5 year old’ I’ve been trying to figure out how to explain it.  I used to save lunch money for my big projects. Cynthia (a retired accountant)

Response:

How pathetic is this?– I live alone and I still sneak the stuff into the house!!! My SO never says a word when he sees new charts lying around (no, he doesn’t live with me but does spend a great deal of time at my house) but I feel guilty anyway!!!! My name is Kris… and I’m a stitchaholic. I’m off to order some beads and flower thread! hahahhahahaha (maniacal laughter) And no one can stop me do you hear?! No one!!!!! — Kristyne Jouwsma (aka Addmirall)

Hey Kris – You’re not alone!  I’m in the same situation and my SO knows that I am always buying new supplies.  I don’t usually advertise my pruchases for the sam reason.  Gosh, maybe I’m not so different after all.  Thank you! "My name is JoAnn and I’m a stitchoholic." "Old friends are the great blessings of one’s latter years.  Half a word conveys one’s meaning. They have memory of the same events and have the same mode of thinking."  Horace Walpole JoAnn

Response:

Mine DH never notices and I keep the check book.  But on the occasions he does decide to ask how I have money to spend on xstitch and tell him we are broke, I have decided that since he eats lunch out every day ($35-$50 a week)  I can spend that much on stitching before he can complain.  He didn’t say much when I told him this.  Sharon

I use golf in the same way. I found it also helps to remind them that all in all, it’s a really safe addiction to have! (That, and he can always find me and the cats by the trail of floss the cats drag off my lap.) Susan

Response:

My SO and I have an agreement. If it’s something that we truly want, no questions asked. However, I have returned from Borders on occasion and buried the trash sack so that he wouldn’t even know that I’ve been. And yes, He has sneaked comic books when I *wasn’t* looking. Actually, never sneaked the books, just didn’t say how much! And sadly, his are worth more than mine today! Donna

Response:

My DH keeps the checkbook and uses quicken so I have to turn in my receipts.  So i use plastic and with any luck the bill won’t come for a month.  Actually, his toy is more costly than all of mine, even mu UFO’s and USO’s included, ( it’s a 1967 Austin Healey 3000,) so he doesn’t say much about my stitching habit! — Claudia, A Stitch in Time Saves Sanity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mine DH never notices and I keep the check book.  But on the occasions he does decide to ask how I have money to spend on xstitch and tell him we are broke, I have decided that since he eats lunch out every day ($35-$50 a week)  I can spend that much on stitching before he can complain.  He didn’t say much when I told him this.  Sharon

Response:

Question:

Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time.

Response:

Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time.

I’m in the office of my neurologist about 40 seconds. He takes my pulse, asks me how I’ve been and if I want more presciptions. Then he bills my insurance $60 bucks. Still, he’s helped me with my migraines. Many others didn’t even try. Dan —                 Daniel H. Carlson                 Susan A. Carlson                         West Palm Beach, Florida                                            http://home.earthlink.net/~freewaver

Response:

I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he swallows a gallon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same  time.

That has to be one of the best descriptions I’ve ever heard of a migraine!  One more thing – tell the doctor to imagine his head is being squeezed by a giant vise, and the cement someone poured in his ears is hardening.  : ) Kathy K.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time. I’m in the office of my neurologist about 40 seconds. He takes my pulse, asks me how I’ve been and if I want more presciptions. Then he bills my insurance $60 bucks. Still, he’s helped me with my migraines. Many others didn’t even try. Dan —                 Daniel H. Carlson                 Susan A. Carlson                         West Palm Beach, Florida                                            http://home.earthlink.net/~freewaver

Dan, how did he help you with your migraines? Susan

Response:

Why do neuros charge an arm and a leg to treat migraine patients but the only treatment they offer the suggestion that you should tough it out. The Dr my wife goes to idea of treatment is shining a flashlight in her eyes, offer the above advice and offer has he says the "drug of the week". Which happens to be what some salesman has just dropped off. I wish I had told him that he might understand more what my wife is going through if he sallows a galleon of ice cream in about 1 minute then let someone scream in his ear, place a strobe light next to his eye and let someone beat on his head all at the same time.

*MAN*  Do you ever need a NEW Neurologist!   My experience with doctors in chronological order: 1970 – Madigan Gen Hosp (Air force) – given I don’t know what, but I was *GONE* for 3 days from 1 injection 1971 – 1985 – in the Military, just toughed it out . . . Docs didn’t believe in pain, I guess . . . 1985 – diagnosed as sinus infection, given nasal spray (which obviously did NOTHING 1986 – 1990 CAT scan and MRI – checked for cancer – diagnosed as secondary complication arising from being hit by a truck (truck doing about 60mph, I was pedestrian) – put on muscle relaxants and went to Chiropractor. 1991 – 1992 Diagnosed by several different doctors as 1. sinus infection (again, *sigh*)  2. cancer (Cat again killed THAT one) 3. secondary complications from accident (again with the robaxin and chiropractic) 4. yet ANOTHER doc calls it a sinus infection.  5. simple migraine. 1993 – FINALLY!!!!  My G.P. (family doctor) CORRECTLY diagnoses me as having clusters!!! 1994 – regular meds stop working, see Neurologist – tried all kinds of stuff (including Oxygen – oxygen didn’t stop pain, but made me RANDY as all get-out!) Neuro did little good, my G.P. STILL gives best advice. 1995 – see new neuro – tries new meds (stadol, vicodin, and Imitrex). They work pretty good. 1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while) In all this time, I’ve had 2 doctors who did any good, and I’ve stuck with them!  My G.P., and one Neurologist.   If you have to go through a number of doctors to find one who will help, it’s WELL WORTH the search!  A doctor who believes that you are REALLY in pain will do what’s necessary to help you, and they are a God-send!!! Good luck! Live Long and Prosper J. Michael Phillips http://www.eskimo.com/~wizkidm/

Response:

1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while)

(sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors? btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Fenway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

Response:

1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while)

(sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors? btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Benway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

Response:

1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while) (sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors?

 . . . and you thought I was joking . . . The voodoo is aimed at the headaches.  I’m going to withhold the name/description of the treatment until it’s had a chance to work, so that it isn’t prejudiced by well-meaning people on the Internet telling WHY it can’t work . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Fenway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                the cross before me, the world behind me                             no turning back

Live Long and Prosper J. Michael Phillips http://www.eskimo.com/~wizkidm/

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Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?

Russell my doctor came right out and told me last thursday that he would much rather try to handle most of the problems over the phone.  I don’t know…maybe I’m too grumpy when I have a headache and since I always have a headache maybe I am always grumpy??? Karen

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i have the best neurologist on the planet…bar none. she is my third neuro…i love her because she CARES. Ah….the missing ingredient in most neuros….CARING!! she is at UCLA….email me if you want more info. Scott S….. PS, the reason she cares?…she is a migraine sufferer herself!

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I’m in the office of my neurologist about 40 seconds. He takes my pulse, asks me how I’ve been and if I want more presciptions. Then he bills my insurance $60 bucks. Still, he’s helped me with my migraines. Many others didn’t even try.

I’m starting to get in that situation, going to the office for new prescriptions for something the Doctor has already diagnosed, no change in the condition, and little or no examination.  I’m not complaining, but I do have some questions. Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often. Russell Van Zandt

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Why are you on a 7-month waiting list for neurologists? It only takes a few more years than that to hatch a new one.   Marnette

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1996 – tried accu-puncture (failed) – currently trying voodoo (will let you know . . . could take a while) (sprays Coke over computer) This, I can understand.  Is the voodoo aimed at the headache or the doctors? btw, my new doctor (who seems ok – as in, she’s infinitely better than everyone else I’ve seen, but let’s be honest, so would Dr Benway from Naked Lunch) has stuck me on beta-blockers and a muscle relaxant, even after being told what amitriptylene did (ie., nothing) for want of anything better to do while I rot on the 7-month neurology waiting list. I’ll be seeing her again this week, (a) for more meds and (b) to see if she has a tame neurologist to run diagnostics and medication options past.  In case she doesn’t… does anyone on the group? (Oh, and we go to the polls next weekend.  Voting for the bunch who initiated the mess that the current lot have perfected is the only sane path I see.  Can someone tell me how this makes sense?) later, butting — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

Hi Bruce, Are you in New Zealand?  How do they handle the msg labeling there? Susan not Jerry

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writes: Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often. Russell Van Zandt

Hi Russell, My neuro has seen me exactly twice in person since first going to her in May of this year.  It takes me two months to get in to see her by appointment.  HOWEVER….she does EVERTHING possible by phone.  She told me that she has so many people coming to her office, that she actually prefers doing whatever she can by phone….after all, all she does is talk with me and prescribe meds. this week alone, i think i talked to her 4 times.  once was on her cell phone for 15 MINUTES!!! she is great…hope you can find one like her. Scott S.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone? Russell my doctor came right out and told me last thursday that he would much rather try to handle most of the problems over the phone.  I don’t know…maybe I’m too grumpy when I have a headache and since I always have a headache maybe I am always grumpy??? Karen

Karen and Russell, I think the reason we "migraineurs" (I love that title,,,,arent we important) hesitate to be treated by phone is because doctors are really shitty (sorry) about calling back.  sometimes docs dont even call back, as you are then stuck talking to a stupid receptionist who could care less if you have a stroke. My neuro, who i first saw in May of this year, gave me her pager number and said, "if you need anything, call me."…..I remember thinking, "yeah….right."  I have called MANY times since….she calls me back within an hour….she also gave me specific instructions to page her again if i dont hear from her in one hour…as she is human and forgets things…imagine that..i have a neurologist who cops out to being human!!! i find it wonderful to be able to be treated quickly by phone and not have to make an appointment and wait in line at her office. hope all of you can find a neuro as good as mine….by the way, she is a migraineur herself……think that makes a difference?? Scott S.

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i have the best neurologist on the planet…bar none. she is my third neuro…i love her because she CARES. Ah….the missing ingredient in most neuros….CARING!! PS, the reason she cares?…she is a migraine sufferer herself!

After talking to many people in the health care system in the past several months, I too have found that I get much more respect from people who have migraines themselves.  Others tend to have little sympathy and sometimes I’ve even experienced prejudice from those who know little about the cause of migraine.  It’s especially difficult dealing with ignorant people where I work.  People with chronic headaches tend to be ostracized.  Everyone I work with seems to know what’s causing my headaches and what the cure is. I’m glad you have finally found a decent doctor Scott. John Draeger

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often. Russell Van Zandt Hi Russell, My neuro has seen me exactly twice in person since first going to her in May of this year.  It takes me two months to get in to see her by appointment.  HOWEVER….she does EVERTHING possible by phone.  She told me that she has so many people coming to her office, that she actually prefers doing whatever she can by phone….after all, all she does is talk with me and prescribe meds. this week alone, i think i talked to her 4 times.  once was on her cell phone for 15 MINUTES!!! she is great…hope you can find one like her. Scott S.

Scott, where do you live?  She sounds like a neurologist from heaven. Susan, not Jerry

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Why are you on a 7-month waiting list for neurologists? It only takes a few more years than that to hatch a new one.  

This has been a BITCH of a day so I’ll explain.  This could take a while. [I'll also cross-post to nz.politics, as we have an election this weekend and there may be lucky fortunates reading who haven't dealt with our health system yet, and certain parties are pushing health as a main issue.  As they should.  So I'll assume anyone who posts followups will send them to appropriate places.] [I'll also make liberal use of footnotes.  You're on your own.] Lessee… physio, headache starts, dr tries amitriptylene, various painkillers, stopping physio from doing more harm.  Drop out of varsity and forced to find new dr, who refers me to community health who decide I’m high risk o/d so bounce me off to a psych outpatient service (known as the kindergarten, but never mind).  Whose sole use is to put me on the waiting list for the hospital’s physio dept (as the – new – private physio was saying ACC[1] won’t pay for this much longer; O her prophetic soul…), aside from sending me off to an osteopath[2]. Eventually I make it to the hospital physio.  Who puts heat packs on, gives me exercises that only made things worse (anyone else with something that appears to be a chronic muscle-contraction headache, caused by accident/trauma, found the same thing?), and tells me I should be seeing the Pain Clinic (which she’s seconded to).  Hope.  (This was, um, sometime around the New Year.  Say eight months in.) So this goes back to my dr (actually, another one; the previous new dr dropped out of practice), with a request to send me back to the orthapaedic surgeon who’d put me on to the physio who started this whole mess in the first place to see what -she- intended doing.  Not a thing, but hey.  Meantime my dr sits on the Pain Clinic referral as "Margaret’s [the O.S.] doing it."  (No she isn’t, YOU are.)  A few visits later, this gets sorted out, he makes the referral.  This was probably March. Sometime after this my ACC case mangler, sorry, manager, is sent off for three month’s training[10].  I learn this after being told by him after asking about -yet another- physio referral that had the physio saying "… but they have a treatment limit… they won’t be paying for this," "Sure, go ahead, no prob, send the form in, I’ll take care of it, there’s no treatment limit," only to get a letter back from someone else saying I get diddly squat (other than a NZ$180 bill for the visits to date on that referral)[3].  This was (counts on fingers) five months back.  No physio since.  Hell, nothing since but painkillers and sleeping pills.  (Imovane [aka zopiclone], and I’m keeping them to a minimum and cursing the aftertaste every day.) About this time my dr is getting letters from ACC asking what treatments he’s looking at and when a return to work[4] could be expected.  He doesn’t reply because "I didn’t know what form to use." Which I believe, even though a month-dead dingo would be able to work out that what they want is a letter.  Of course, he doesn’t think to ask the case mangler (who even, thoughtfully, provided a return name, address, and phone number), his collegues, or even me.  So we sort this out, he yet again fails to think of anything constructive to do, and I hit him for as many months’ worth of scripts as I can get in one go and start hunting for a new one. Sometime around then I get an invitation to mosey along to the Pain Clinic.  Great! until I look at the time, figure the odds of being able to say anything coherant let alone useful – or, for that matter, of getting to the hospital without crashing – and call them up and ask if there’s any chance of having the appointment changed.  I’m still optimistic, here.  Sure, we’ll be in touch. Anyway, I don’t hear anything, so call back, call back, call back, and eventually get through to one of the drs.  He’s a little annoyed that I’d got him instead of the receptionist, but says yep, that’s a good point, I’ll get her to call you back. And we repeat.  This time, I -finally- get an answering machine the day before the original (and presumed cancelled) appointment, and so I figure I’d better just be ready in the morning. Next am, call up, no, they’re not expecting me, "But I did try to call" she tells me.  Uh-huh.  When’s the new appointment?  "I’ll call you back." A few blood pressure points higher it turns out she hasn’t -made- a new appointment, but she tried calling me -once- and no, she didn’t send me any mail about it.   About this time I figure out the problem with our falling-to-the- ground health system isn’t -just- the managers who’ve appeared out of nowhere[5], but has more than a little to do with the bottom feeders they hire[6].  Bear with me, we *are* getting to the point. Some time later, I get an appointment card with a *very* tetchy note attached to the effect that I wasn’t home the one time she tried calling, Shame On Me, for Thursday the 7th of October[7].  And track down one of the drs concerned, and scream that there’s no WAY I’m going to cope till then, and is there -any- chance of seeing him outside the clinic before then?  No, but why haven’t you seen a neurologist yet?  From which it transpires that he doesn’t want to do -anything- without me having been seen by a neurologist yet, and what the hell does your dr think he’s doing sending you to us before trying that? Good point, after having been on their waiting list seven months. So, I storm in to my dr’s to put the same question, get a referral, and collect my file (after phoning ahead and not being able to get hold of him).  No luck, I just get his colleague, who doesn’t see the point of a referral and won’t make one. My new dr is the first one I’d (a) heard -one- good word-of-mouth of, (b) whose receptionist wanted to know why I hadn’t been sent to a neurologist, and (c) might possibly be able to fill in referrals without drooling on them.  Though I still have reservations about her, but she’s at least considered the possibility of migraines being involved and complicating things. So, now I’m on the semi-urgent waiting list of the hospital’s neurology dept, who won’t put me on the (month-long) urgent list[8].  At a guess, they’ve made the same call I have: if it’s a tumour, he’d be dead by now anyway.  (Though suddenly there’s a run of strokes in the family that I’m getting vaguely nervous about.)  And it turns out that "Thursday the 7th" doesn’t mean "Monday the 7th" or even "Thursday the 10th"; it means "Thursday the 17th".  Fsck(1m)[11].  After phoning several times – *never* getting the receptionist – I get the same answer, from a different dr, to the same pleading.  No, he doesn’t see the point of seeing me without a neurologist’s opinion, no, he won’t see me outside the clinic, no, he won’t even put me on the physio waiting list (a week and a half for clinic patients; about four months otherwise.  Damn. It’s been five since I last had any physio… never *mind* that this one did stuff all).  Ask your dr to talk to neurology about being put on the urgent list. In the meantime: psych don’t care -how- desperate things are (if I’m willing to trade a few nights in the hellhole wards here just on the chance it’ll move me up one of the lists I’m on, things are DESPERATE), emergency won’t do anything besides tell me to have my dr refer me to a neurologist and stick pathadeine in my leg, and I’ve got no chance of being able to afford regular private physio, let alone a neurologist. Maybe, just maybe, the Pain Clinic will be able to convince Neurology to move me up.  But what, really, could I hope to gain from that? Only Managed Health could be worse than this mess. Marnette

butting [1] ACC – Accident Compensation Corporation, which -did- cover health costs resulting from accidents, with all sorts of useful no-fault clauses, until it was decided that taking away most of the cover but withholding right-to-sue would be a Good Thing. [2] and claiming that ACC would cover, so dammit, you’re not doing enough, make a <censored appointment with her.  Only to find -after- the visit that I’d been referred by someone who had not a clue what an ACC referral was, let alone being authorised to make one, and ACC won’t accept bills after the fact. [3] and although I’m on the Sickness Benefit, I don’t qualify for the allowance that covers regular treatment because an accident was involved, which makes it an ACC matter, even if they DO have a treatment cap and wash their hands of a case after n treatments. Scream. [4] of course, being a student at the time this started confuses things somewhat.  I’m not entitled to any earnings compensation, because my earnings for the previous year were frankly pitiful, and having open- offer drool-worthy-salary jobs available for "when I’m available for work again" is irrelevant under the legislation. [5] true story: one was told that the post-natal ward they were responsible for needed more ventilators.  Several weeks later some carpenters turn up to measure up for air ducts.  True story #2: the auditors brought in to ensure that one of our public hospitals is being run as properly befits a business were muttering dark things about "going concerns" and threatening to refuse to ok the books.  I hope, I hope I hope I *hope*, it comes to this.  Then, maybe, someone will learn. [6] the entire surgical staff of the Ear Nose & Throat dept has just resigned en masse.  Unfortunately, I’m on -their- waiting list as well; and after an examination, being told "ok, we’ll operate," being sent off for a pre-surgery blood test and CT scan (sinuses only, unfortunately, and they -won’t- give me an electronic copy to play with and keep myself occupied) and being told to wait to be scheduled for surgery, I’ve dropped into a black hole. [7] you are entitled to go "yer wha’?"  I didn’t think to check. Duh. [8] I … read more »

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Zandt) writes: Basically what I’m wondering is how often do I go in for visits rather than just talking to the doctor on the phone?  I’m just curious if people in a maintenance situation see the doctor every quarter, twice a year, or more often.

Russell, I have appointments set every 30 days. If the headaches haven’t changed and the patterns remain about the same, I call and cancel. Then I just speak to a Nurse and get refills of my regular Meds. With the recent addition of Lithium and the required *off period* for my sansert, I’ve been going in quite regularly. Bob

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Damn, Bryce, I already knew I was against the U.S. subsidizing health care.  And I thought our health system was in a downward spiral.  Damn.  No wonder you have a headache. Marnette

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Damn, Bryce, I already knew I was against the U.S. subsidizing health care.  And I thought our health system was in a downward spiral.  Damn.  No wonder you have a headache.

Actually, ours has been making the opposite journey – fully state- funded (our health/education/social welfare/superannuation system was once one of the best -anywhere-) to part-state-funded/part-private- insurance/weasel-holes-everywhere. What this means is that the tax take supposedly goes into funding the public health system (don’t ask about the others…), which was a national system but is now a collection of "Crown Health Enterprises", now responsible only for patients in their own area except for special circumstances (what was a national women’s hospital[1] is now really open only to Auckland patients, heart and cancer waiting lists vary wildly between regions, etc., etc.), each with massive waiting lists in various fields (as I mentioned, 18 months for ENT, 7 months for neurology, here in the Waikato; others I can’t speak for).  The bit that makes the accountants rub their hands with glee is that waiting lists can be jumped if you are prepared to pay for the treatment that *your taxes are subsidising anyway*. This’ll happen anywhere during a transitional period.  I figure the important questions are "Is the target solution worth it?", and "Can we plan around it?"  Here, the answers would probably have been "No" and "Why bother?" – in the States, it looks like you’re trying to solve the opposite mess, which’ll involve a similar process.  I’d say watch out for the private interests, but I think most of you have found that out already… Marnette

butting [1] I think the one of a huuuuge scandal some time back; a non- consentual experiment to see what would happen to cancer patients if treatment was withheld, effectively.  (This is the same country where a DC-10 that slammed into the side of an Antarctic mountain on account of the flight plan being changed without the knowledge of the flight crew, I should probably point out.)  This sort of thing is partly among the reasons (probably more like an excuse) for handing the system over to private insurance companies to scrap it out over.  Bad move. — Bryce Utting                          http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting                 the cross before me, the world behind me                              no turning back

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this week alone, i think i talked to her 4 times.  once was on her cell phone for 15 MINUTES!!! she is great…hope you can find one like her.

Scott, I think you should ask her if she has an E-mail address so we could send her a thank you note. She sounds like somebody that deserves a pat on the back. Bob

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Question:

I am looking to set up a corporate flight department. Would anyone know of any mauals which are published which can lay down the groundwork fir a jet operation? Thanks in Advance. Mark Dinan

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I am looking to set up a corporate flight department. Would anyone know of any mauals which are published which can lay down the groundwork fir a jet operation? Thanks in Advance. Mark Dinan

There is a 349 page overview text out entitled ‘Corporate Aviation Management’ written by Raoul Castro. It is available for $34.95 from Southern Illinois University Press at (800)346-2680. It is also available on the WWW at Amazon.com and the book was reviewed in the January edition of B&CA. Good Luck. Mark Casey

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I’ve done some startup and optimization consulting with various medium to large flight departments.  I’ve moved on to a "Big Six" accounting firm now.  But, I’d still be willing to talk to you about some of your specific problems and maybe show you some options. –JCB

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Question:

[snip] including at least 186 hyacinth macaws — birds which federal authorities value at more than one-point-three million dollars. Yow!  I had no idea that hyacinths cost that much!  Is that an accurate figure, or is it some bizarrely inflated government accounting figure? — Emily

    That comes out to just under $7000 a bird. I saw a Nova program that had to do with bird smuggling, and they gave a different price for the Hyacinth Macaws. They said that they cost between $8000 and $15,000 each!     Of coarse, they ARE very rare birds…     Chris Biebel — * UniQWK v3.3a* The Windows Mail Reader

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   That comes out to just under $7000 a bird. I saw a Nova program that had to do with bird smuggling, and they gave a different price for the Hyacinth Macaws. They said that they cost between $8000 and $15,000 each!    Of coarse, they ARE very rare birds…

Oh, that makes sense.  I read it as meaning "one point three million dollars EACH" which seemed extreme, to say the least.  :-) — Emily

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:    That comes out to just under $7000 a bird. I saw a Nova program that : had to do with bird smuggling, and they gave a different price for the : Hyacinth Macaws. They said that they cost between $8000 and $15,000 each! :    Of coarse, they ARE very rare birds… : Oh, that makes sense.  I read it as meaning "one point three million : dollars EACH" which seemed extreme, to say the least.  :-) : — Emily 7000 would be about right. We Sell babies for 7500 weaned <takes 8 mos to a year to wean!

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7000 would be about right. We Sell babies for 7500 weaned <takes 8 mos to a year to wean!

In Canada (B.C., actually) I think the price is around C$8,000-10,000. Of course you have to add at least another $1,000 for a cage, and probably another $1,000 for accessories and food. Their diet is somewhat specialized from what I understand. The bottom line is, you are looking at the equivelent of the down payment on a small house. —

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] including at least 186 hyacinth macaws — birds which federal authorities value at more than one-point-three million dollars. Yow!  I had no idea that hyacinths cost that much!  Is that an accurate figure, or is it some bizarrely inflated government accounting figure? — Emily    That comes out to just under $7000 a bird. I saw a Nova program that had to do with bird smuggling, and they gave a different price for the Hyacinth Macaws. They said that they cost between $8000 and $15,000 each!    Of coarse, they ARE very rare birds…    Chris Biebel — * UniQWK v3.3a* The Windows Mail Reader

Not that you can own one, but the red-fronted amazon at the Houston Zoo (an endangered species) is valued at $50,000.  Now that’s an expensive bird!

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