Question:
Just out of curiosity, what 12 string models are you looking at? I picked up a Guild JF55-12 a couple years ago and love it. It seems to hold its tuning very well. Not only are the necks on Guild 12’s beefier, but they have double truss rods that really withstand a lot of pressure and hold up to concert pitch quite well. I second the tuning method of lowers first then octaves second. It’s worked for me for years. Good luck, Steve
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich Patrick, Nick & Rich, Thanks for the replies. I can live with your answers… Still trying to choose between a couple nice sounding 12-stringers on the rack. Best, Andy
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich Patrick, Nick & Rich, Thanks for the replies. I can live with your answers… Still trying to choose between a couple nice sounding 12-stringers on the rack. Best, Andy
Be sure to budget for having them set up really well, and learn the trick for tuning it – tune as a pair of six strings. Tune the "lower" course first, and then tune the octave courses. You’ll wind up taking three passes or so, but it will actually be faster. Enjoy. -pk
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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Contemplating a 12-string… Thanks, Andy
I think no, because I have a picky ear and I only find strings that are not quite right as I play. Then again, if your style has less bending then maybe it will stay in tune because of that diffence. There are more variables than you are accounting for.
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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes?
Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with.
Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich See my gear at the link! http://community.webtv.net/one4rich/RichsGuitarPage
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? Nope! All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Weather changes affect wood, and though the neck may be beefier, it’s still wood. What you end up with is *more* tuning, because there’s more strings. I love my 12 string, but it’s a pain to get in tune. ~Rich
Patrick, Nick & Rich, Thanks for the replies. I can live with your answers… Still trying to choose between a couple nice sounding 12-stringers on the rack. Best, Andy
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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Contemplating a 12-string… Thanks, Andy
In general? No. It depends on the guitar, how well it’s been set up and the condition of the nut relative to the strings, the degree of weather change, etc. The guitar is built stronger but there is the same balance of tension v. strength. In short, all other things being equal, the change should be the same or worse, as there is more potential for dissonance within the courses. -pk
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stay in tune better than their 6 string cousins as the weather changes? All of my 6 string instruments change tuning as does the weather and some more than others. Was wondering about 12-strings in general as their neck is suppose to be beefier to begin with. Contemplating a 12-string… Thanks, Andy
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Question:
Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on. So, choose your colleagues wisely,
How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? Chris
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On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job. —
It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. Chris
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How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston?
You don’t know what’s going on specifically, but "you" as a collective group of employees and partners didn’t do a whole lot to stop the shredding of documents that may or may not have been crucial in determining the facts. Any one of you could have, and a whole lot of you should have, stepped up to the plate and said STOP THIS. And while a few priests have disgraced the priesthood as well as the Catholic Church, so have a few Andersen CPA’s disgraced Andersen as well as every CPA in the world. Now we all have to wait to see just how muddied the designation has become, and if the stain ever washes off. THANK YOU AA. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com
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How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston?
A real problem–but one that any Big 5 firm is going to face. It’s the nature of the beast that you have potential exposure to the actions of people in other offices. You would hope that the internal and quality controls are sufficient to give assurance that such problems aren’t happening undetected for a long period of time. In fact, professional standards demand The results in Waste Management, Sunbeam, Baptist Foundation of Arizona and Enron suggest that, in fact, those systems weren’t working very well at Andersen. That said, you say you have 3.5 years with Andersen. If you started with them straight out of school, that means you are in the very early stages of your career. I would caution you that over your career you are going to experience a lot of ups and downs–and, in fact, while this situation appears terrible today, you are extremely likely to recover from it relatively quickly. The work Andersen did is still going to be done–just by other firms. And those firms are going to be hiring accountants, assuming they weren’t terribly overstaffed to start with. You should be in a good position to go with whatever firm landed the account you just lost.
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It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.
You mean the "Final Four"? I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.
Therein lies the problem. It should be crossing your mind every day. I know that’s the case in my (and I mean I own it) practice. Whether it’s a tax issue, accounting, billing, collection, employee issues, client acceptance, retention, etc. the decisions made each day affect your ethics, morality, integrity, etc. – not to mention the bottom line. And in my practice, my income is based on what’s left over for me after the business bills get paid. I’ve lost clients (big ones) and/or never obtained a client because I wouldn’t DO what they thought should be done. And of course that not only hurts the business bottom line, but my personal earnings as well. I am sure that similar (albeit significantly larger in dollars) pressure resides with the partners at AA and the other four firms. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com
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…. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.
Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.
You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia, * * the Seventh worst state for business, * * Ayn Rand was right *
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The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
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I take it you are an Andersen employee or associate. You seem to be blaming DOJ and the media for Andersen’s screw ups. So let me see what should be done here. Should everyone just turn a blind eye to this fiasco in which YOUR firm was involved? Muzzle the media? And the Department of Justice should give preferential treatment to Andersen and not investigate and prosecute if there were wrong doings or fraud? It is regrettable that you are losing customers and I understand that you had nothing to do with the fiasco, but your anger is directed at the wrong people. The DOJ and media are doing their jobs. Your anger needs to be directed at the top Andersen Brass, they are responsible for your plight, not the media. By not investigating and reporting on this the DOJ and media would be doing a disservice to all American and some foreigners as some Enron stock was held by foreigners. So what you are saying is your interests should be protected at the expense of everybody else’s. I’m sorry, that’s not equitable. As for your customers bailing out on you I do sympathize, if you gave them unparalleled service for many years it seems unfair. But it’s a free country and you have to understand that some customers are nervous and they don’t want the additional stress of being unsure about their accounting firm. Business is hard enough without headaches that one doesn’t need or have any control over, so they are acting with prudence and due care. They are protecting their interests. If the whole thing really blows right apart why should they be unwitting victims? They really have nothing to do with this, they are not Andersen employees or associates, they are customers. In business if one of your suppliers is about to go bankrupt or get sued you have to take measures to ensure uninterrupted supplies and continuance of your affairs as smoothly as possible. You cannot expect anything else, not doing so would be poor business practice. This whole thing is somewhat comparable to the Ford Explorer debacle. When Firestone tires were flying apart and Explorers were flying head first in ditches a lot of people who were not directly responsible suffered. There was only 2 line of Firestone tires that were at issue, yet sale of all Firestone tires suffered, even wheelbarrow tires. People who had never even seen a Ford Explorer were affected. Employees of Bridgestone Tires, which owns Firestone, lost their jobs even though there was nothing wrong with their products. And Ford employees who weren’t in anyway even closely working on Explorers lost their jobs, not to mention Ford suppliers, dealers and contractor. What should have been done then? No congressional investigation and muzzle the media? Just be thankful you’re not a 75 year old widow who has lost all of her life savings on Enron stock. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
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That concept is really too much for me. Its like blaming all Germans for No. It’s like blaming the people responsible for Andersen’s policies and decision making for not meeting their responsibilities to their profession, their colleagues, and the users of the financial statements they pretended to audit.
We agree to disagree on that. Most of the people at Andersen probably didn’t have the remotest clue of what was going. I will believe that until it is proved otherwise. They don’t deserve the sticks and stones. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<SNIP I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job. They have enough to deal with. Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few. And the point of that is what? People you work with are subject to being screwed over if colleagues they trust do wrong? Tell me, if someone in your organization breaks the law – say your boss, for example – and the company ceases to exist because when the boss is caught and indicted, the business goes under, are you going to blame your boss, who broke the law, or are you going to blame the cops who arrested him?
Actually, I just went through that. Six or seven allegations were thrown out against the head of my organization and supported by the W Post. The allegations seem oh so true. However, ALL of the allegations were disapproven. The issues are now dead. Had my organization been AA, we would be out of business based on the unscrouplous tactics of a few– those making the allegations. ///I just can’t write what needs to be written above and had to remove about 5 lines. //// I know what you are trying to say. My issue was that AA people are not all equally guilty. We don’t know the extent that upper level people were involved in the decision making. We do know the system of quality control was ineffective if not totally broken. Indict those who broke the law, not those who were not connected. I see nothing wrong with Cris questioning the tactics of the "cops." The fact is that cops/investigators have a mission and they don’t mind hurting the innocent a bit a long the way to get the guilty. Car chases, exposed whistle blowers, and others are obvious examples. Depending on the damage done, I would even support a bit of that to get the guilty….I’m not sure where the line is and I’m glad I don’t get involved in that area. The fact that he chose to attack that aspect doesn’t preclude that he would attack the actual perpetrators at AA. He has been silent on that probably because everyone has already discussed that and he probably agrees. Your example doesn’t fit well because they aren’t attacking the boss alone, they are going after the firm, which is thousands of people, some of which could be your friends and relativess and who are perfectly innocent of any wrong doing. He has every right to be ticked at the methodology no matter how much you agree with it. Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm. To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues. Mostly, I’m painting the ones who were directly involved in the wrong doing and the ones who insist upon defending the indefensible.
That’s find…but the tone in this thread has been recently and continues to be that all of AA had to know what went on and are therefore guilty of at least inaction. I don’t buy that and must challenge that position. By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general.
In that, we agree. I will tell you this— if the big 5 are tainted, they run rings around the small firms in terms of ethics. I think in a year or two, this aspect will become clear. The free ride is over and the AA debacle has made it easier to challenge the work of all CPAs. Respectfully, Tippy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards, Bill
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By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general.
There’s truly the frightful part. If there are substantial problems with the other guys, there are two possibilities: - Perhaps the "blood-letting" at AA may be a sufficient scare to draw others back from the brink of further disaster; - Alternatively, perhaps there’s worse to come, including problems of devaluation of all sorts of companies out there. The latter is what people should be quite fearful of, and both possibilities represent good political reason for the DOJ to be as harsh as possible with AA. That’s small comfort for those unjustly affected by the harshness; it wouldn’t be the first time, and it won’t be the last. Ronald Reagan fired about 12000 air traffic controllers, which was rather harsh, and bites people to this day. At that time, the issue was "defense of the airways;" today, it’s "defense of stock valuations." And of course, in _this_ situation, things are quite conflated because there are _two_ plausible causes for the bleeding away of AA clients: a) Really, really, really bad publicity about Enron, coming in the wake of some other "bad publicity" scenarios, and b) DOJ becoming an adversary. Blaming all the problems on the DOJ indictment represents a very _convenient_ apologia; I suppose we’ll never know for sure if things would have come to a similar "head" without that indictment. — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/spiritual.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #200. "During times of peace, my Legions of Terror will not be permitted to lie around drinking mead and eating roast boar. Instead they will be required to obey my dietician and my aerobics instructor." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/
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That concept is really too much for me. Its like blaming all Germans for
No. It’s like blaming the people responsible for Andersen’s policies and decision making for not meeting their responsibilities to their profession, their colleagues, and the users of the financial statements they pretended to audit. <<SNIP I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job. They have enough to deal with. Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few.
And the point of that is what? People you work with are subject to being screwed over if colleagues they trust do wrong? Tell me, if someone in your organization breaks the law – say your boss, for example – and the company ceases to exist because when the boss is caught and indicted, the business goes under, are you going to blame your boss, who broke the law, or are you going to blame the cops who arrested him? Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm. To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues.
Mostly, I’m painting the ones who were directly involved in the wrong doing and the ones who insist upon defending the indefensible. By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general. Regards, Bill
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I’d love to see your reactions if your career was dramatically affecting by the unfortunate conduct of a few, especially if you didn’t even work in the audit practice, like at least 60% of the people employed by Andersen.
I’d be pissed as hell and I’d be blaming the ones who committed the "unfortunate conduct," not the cops for bringing them to justice. By the way, I had a job in a Big 8 firm – back in the days when at least in that office, there was a note of pride in the voices of the professional staff when commenting that the partner in charge was a man of _integrity_.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy.
It is entirely plausible that in 3 1/2 years, the individual in question hasn’t been near enough to _serious_ involvement with marketing or practice management to see much in the way of "scary issues." Contrary to Hollywood scenarios as in _The Rainmaker_, where just-out-of-school lawyers immediately get thrown into complex negotiations, with their practical education coming from senior lawyers who run strip clubs on the side and outrun FBI investigations, in the _real world,_ it takes a few years for those in the big firms to get around to dealing with sensitive situations. Someone who may have barely been a CPA for a year or maybe two isn’t likely to be out pounding the pavement in the "business development" area which _is_ the place where thare are likely to be hefty ethical challenges. Indeed, a junior auditor working in Utah is liable to be too busy writing up timesheets and searching for billable time to have the time to look for terribly many polygamists. :-) — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/languages.html "The classic Common Lisp defmacro is like a cook’s knife; an elegant idea which seems dangerous, but which experts use with confidence." — Paul Graham, _On Lisp_
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With incredible insight like that it’s really surprising that you’re unemployed with your MBA & CPA credentials. Did you learn your know it all sarcasm in your graduate program. Let alone all the bitter holier than thou sole proprietors just waiting to pile on the Big 5 firms because you couldn’t get hired out of college. I know this isn’t the case with all of the respondents in this newsgroup, but it sure is the general tone of the piling on uninformed responses that I’ve read. I’d love to see your reactions if your career was dramatically affecting by the unfortunate conduct of a few, especially if you didn’t even work in the audit practice, like at least 60% of the people employed by Andersen. Take a look in the mirror before you slam the concerns of the mostly excellent professionals working at Andersen.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s
statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia, * * the Seventh worst state for business, * * Ayn Rand was right *
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Tippy w/ unpopular views
Without a difference of opinion there could be no discussion. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com
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It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not.
I suspect he meant that he never detected an issue of integrity, ethics, or independence or that such matters never surfaced as an issue to him. As similarly stated by Paul (I think), auditors should always have an awareness of such matters. As authority increases, so does the need to keep an awareness of these matters. But even a junior auditor can compromise work by applying to work for the client without recusing himself from work on that client. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s
statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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That concept is really too much for me. Its like blaming all Germans for the holocaust when many left the country and many helped the Jews escape. Yes, people still believe that *all* Germans were responsible for the holocaust. Or blaming all of any group. The idea that people throughout the entire organization (AA) at all levels had at least an inkling belies realistic behavior. I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job. They have enough to deal with. Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few. Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm. To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues. Tippy w/ unpopular views – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? You don’t know what’s going on specifically, but "you" as a collective group of employees and partners didn’t do a whole lot to stop the shredding of documents that may or may not have been crucial in determining the facts. Any one of you could have, and a whole lot of you should have, stepped up to the plate and said STOP THIS. And while a few priests have disgraced the priesthood as well as the Catholic Church, so have a few Andersen CPA’s disgraced Andersen as well as every CPA in the world. Now we all have to wait to see just how muddied the designation has become, and if the stain ever washes off. THANK YOU AA. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com
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Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on. So, choose your colleagues wisely, How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? Chris
There are some very smart people in this group…but empathy is not always easy when the whole profession has been tainted by your colleagues. I am not in agreement with most of the group–respectfully, I see an attitude of "holier than thou" that will diminish over time. (Some posters are strictly factual or speculative rather than emotional.) For the most part, few are challenging the prevailing view here. When there is near consensus, you won’t see much sympathy for those I believe were unfairly tainted. OTOH, why would anyone want their financial statements examined by Andersen when its reputation has been so tainted. I suspect that potential investors would worry about why a tainted CPA firm is continuing to opine on the corporation…are shenanigans going on between AA and the firm. Fair? Perhaps. Tippy
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job. — It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.
It is more a mixture of contempt and sorrow. I once held the "Big 8" in high regard. No more. In my quieter moments I grieve for what we have all lost, primarily as a result of the unbridled greed of a few. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.
Innocence lost. It happens to most of us sooner or later. You will no doubt get caught up in the next 3 1/2. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com
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It remains to be seen whether DOJ has a winnable case. The media rarely gets the facts right, they take the easy road until they find out they are on losing side of an issue and then they turn on the other side like a dog. In the meantime, honorable people get hurt. But the end justifies the means, right. As much as I admire most of the intentions of our "crimefighters," they sometimes get it wrong and people are hurt. More often than not, information is somehow leaked that taints individuals and firms…and the investigations lead nowhere. Oftentimes, politicians pressure investigators and others in government…the pressure is powerful sometimes. Years ago, I led a multiagency federal (PCIE) audit that yielded results different than the politician wanted to see. That didn’t go over well but the testing was good and the results stood. I’m not so sure that the FBI and certain others can withstand the pressure placed on them to yield results beneficial to the desires of the politicians. My point is simply that Andersen apparently was decentralized to point it was not as effective as it was supposed to be. But, does that mean that those who were effective have to lose their jobs because they are associated with Andersen. Okay, so be it. The public has the right to choose. But why should any CPA be held in any higher esteem than those of Andersen. For the most part, CPAs went to the same schools, the same ethics, the same friends, etc. What happened at Andersen has very likely happened in varying degrees at big and small CPA firms throughout this country. The holier than thou business just doesn’t fly — if you blame all of Andersen then you need to blame everyone. As we all know, control systems are just as good as the people in the positions— and I suggest to you that Andersen’s people, overall, were just as good. Sorry a bit rambling, okay a lot. Tippy BTW, look at the FBI, the screwed up so badly with Hansen…but who is being held accountable….nobody but Hansen. They had zip controls over access to classified and sensitive information…according to our media friends.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take it you are an Andersen employee or associate. You seem to be blaming DOJ and the media for Andersen’s screw ups. So let me see what should be done here. Should everyone just turn a blind eye to this fiasco in which YOUR firm was involved? Muzzle the media? And the Department of Justice should give preferential treatment to Andersen and not investigate and prosecute if there were wrong doings or fraud? It is regrettable that you are losing customers and I understand that you had nothing to do with the fiasco, but your anger is directed at the wrong people. The DOJ and media are doing their jobs. Your anger needs to be directed at the top Andersen Brass, they are responsible for your plight, not the media. By not investigating and reporting on this the DOJ and media would be doing a disservice to all American and some foreigners as some Enron stock was held by foreigners. So what you are saying is your interests should be protected at the expense of everybody else’s. I’m sorry, that’s not equitable. As for your customers bailing out on you I do sympathize, if you gave them unparalleled service for many years it seems unfair. But it’s a free country and you have to understand that some customers are nervous and they don’t want the additional stress of being unsure about their accounting firm. Business is hard enough without headaches that one doesn’t need or have any control over, so they are acting with prudence and due care. They are protecting their interests. If the whole thing really blows right apart why should they be unwitting victims? They really have nothing to do with this, they are not Andersen employees or associates, they are customers. In business if one of your suppliers is about to go bankrupt or get sued you have to take measures to ensure uninterrupted supplies and continuance of your affairs as smoothly as possible. You cannot expect anything else, not doing so would be poor business practice. This whole thing is somewhat comparable to the Ford Explorer debacle. When Firestone tires were flying apart and Explorers were flying head first in ditches a lot of people who were not directly responsible suffered. There was only 2 line of Firestone tires that were at issue, yet sale of all Firestone tires suffered, even wheelbarrow tires. People who had never even seen a Ford Explorer were affected. Employees of Bridgestone Tires, which owns Firestone, lost their jobs even though there was nothing wrong with their products. And Ford employees who weren’t in anyway even closely working on Explorers lost their jobs, not to mention Ford suppliers, dealers and contractor. What should have been done then? No congressional investigation and muzzle the media? Just be thankful you’re not a 75 year old widow who has lost all of her life savings on Enron stock. John The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
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Therein lies the problem. It should be crossing your mind every day.
Hopefully he meant he has never had to compromise his ethics *AND* that his ethics are not warped to begin with. But, as you note, the real question is whether you’ve ever had to make a decision that took money out of your pocket in order to sustain an ethical position. My guess is that, with 3 1/2 years experience, he may actually not have faced such a decision. But it will come–and when you make that decision, it tells a lot about you. As you note, when you have your own practice these types of decisions occur quite often. And, in many cases, the ethical choice is one that is going to take money directly out of my pocket in the short term. And, if the problem is never uncovered (and in most cases it’s highly unlikely that it will be), the decision takes money out of your pocket over the long term.
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Thanks Jim, and earlier, Ed Zollars. I emphatically agree. I never cheated. I paid heavily for the privilege. Many of us have watched other managers and partners make money cheating. And said nothing, while getting paychecks out of the revenue they made for our firm. Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on. So, choose your colleagues wisely, Todd Boyle CPA Kirkland WA The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
[...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personal experience here. As I’ve mentioned before, I was involved in a decision that lead to the loss of a client that made up nearly 10% of firm revenues for a local firm–and which we knew would lead to the loss of that client when we made the decision. I know how difficult it is to make decisions in that context–and what temptation exists to find some way to prevent that loss of revenue from occurring. And that temptation exists for all professional staff on the engagement–from the partner level all the way down to the staffer who is likely going to be laid off if the revenue can’t be replaced. At the time, the economy in Phoenix was bad enough that it was highly unlikely that revenue replacement would occur AND it was going to be very difficult for any laid off staff to find a new position. In the case in question had we decided to simply do what the client wanted, we would have retained the fees, the partners would have not had to skip being paid for a while and at least one layoff would have been avoided. We decided, however, that we couldn’t live with that decision from a moral or professional standpoint. Been there; done that; numerous times. On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job.
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Arthur Anderson? The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing.
"It’s God’s job to sort out what to do with terrorists. It’s our job to deliver them to God. " I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing.
Let me be as clear as I can. If people perceive you and your office’s audit opinion as being tainted it is because of the behavior of your associates in Houston and Chicago. That is where you should direct your "thanks," not to DOJ and the media. I’m sorry for your troubles. I’m more sorry for the troubles now being experienced by the financial markets; all auditors’ opinions are now tainted, not just yours. I’m more sorry for the lowered regard in which all CPAs are now held. I put the primary blame for these bad things where it belongs, with Andersen’s decision makers in Houston and Chicago. Good luck to you and the rest of us as well.
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The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
— copy / paste from another thread — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personal experience here. As I’ve mentioned before, I was involved in a decision that lead to the loss of a client that made up nearly 10% of firm revenues for a local firm–and which we knew would lead to the loss of that client when we made the decision. I know how difficult it is to make decisions in that context–and what temptation exists to find some way to prevent that loss of revenue from occurring. And that temptation exists for all professional staff on the engagement–from the partner level all the way down to the staffer who is likely going to be laid off if the revenue can’t be replaced. At the time, the economy in Phoenix was bad enough that it was highly unlikely that revenue replacement would occur AND it was going to be very difficult for any laid off staff to find a new position. In the case in question had we decided to simply do what the client wanted, we would have retained the fees, the partners would have not had to skip being paid for a while and at least one layoff would have been avoided. We decided, however, that we couldn’t live with that decision from a moral or professional standpoint.
Been there; done that; numerous times. On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com
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Question:
I had a nasty incident happen at the Woodworkers Warehouse new store in Watertown, NY. I went with a friend on Wednesday Aug.23rd. on our day off and spent 3-4 hours wandering thru the store, drooling and putting "stuff" in a shopping basket. When we got to the cashier my "stuff" came to about $90 US and his came to about $300 US. My "stuff" got rung thru first and while they were doing his, I was still looking around. I found a set of ball-end hex keys I couldn’t do without, so I bought them. Or at least I tried to. WHen they tried to use the same credit card I had used on the $90 order, it didn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t print a credit card receipt. So they tried a couple of times all with the same result. I also got them to credit the purchase to offset the repeated tries they made. I told them to never mind as I didn’t want to spend any more time there. They said everything would be OK on my statement. HA ! ! ! It didn’t make my statement until the Oct. billing & this is how I faired: Aug.23 Purchase $18.18 Aug.23 Purchase $18.18 Aug.24 Credit $18.18 Aug.24 Purchase $18.18 So, I’m out $36.36, they used my credit card number TWICE on the day after my visit without my permission, AND I still don’t have a set of hex keys to show for all this. I called the store, long distance, & the manager tells me he can’t do anything although he was one of the people ringing up my sale. He says I have to phone Trendlines in Mass.-says I have to talk to their accounting office and the number he gives me to call is for placing an order! They say they have no 1-800 number for the head office. I call another number from their catalog & get the same crap. I spoke to a supervisor and she takes my name & number and says she will pass it along & get them to call me. DOUBLE HA ! ! ! So there it stands woodworkers. Fraudulent use of a credit card and a company that refuse to deal with the problem or speak to me. MORAL —— WOODWORKERS WAREHOUSE / TRENDLINES cannot be trusted to use your credit card. Be very careful if you use a credit card with EITHER of these companies. It could happen to you too. I am sure some of you have had pleasant experience with thes outfits, but I felt people should be warned. Regards, JD
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: | local manager is a non-customer oriented caveman. They track everything : | you buy in their stores–they ask you for your zipcode and last 4 phone : | digits. They then pull you up on their computer and have record of : | everything you buy from them : SO! Seems to me that smart businessmen would want to keep data like this : in their database so they can see who is buying what. It is called : marketing. It does not harm the consumer. It helps the business, and this : hopefully helps keep their prices down. Many places now have intelligent : cash registers, its the wave of the future. I’ve seen this at Dick’s and : at radio Shack, just to name a few. Oh, BTW, you dont need to pay by check : to get entered into their database. They just ask you your name and address. : This also helps when sending out their catalogs. That’s what I hate about Radio Shack. I don’t want to get their catalogues. I never read them, and it is a waste of paper and trees for them to send them to me. Hence I never give them my name, even when they ask. And I think it is up to me whether or not I want someone keeping track of what I buy. Apparently I’m not alone in this. There have been repeated threads about this aspect of Radio shack in the Electronincs newsgroups. And their cashiers have gotten friendlier about people who do not want to give their name. Apparently they get a lot of flack if they are insistent. So it may or may not be smart business practice. If Radiao Shack were not the only game in town in many areas, they might find the downside to be more costly. Woodworking stores may have to worry about that more. That said, I somehow don’t feel nearly as bothered by woodworking stores getting my name. Maybe it is because I actually look at their catalogues. Mark
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| | We have a WWH locally and I have an uneasy feeling about the place. The | local manager is a non-customer oriented caveman. They track everything | you buy in their stores–they ask you for your zipcode and last 4 phone | digits. They then pull you up on their computer and have record of | everything you buy from them SO! Seems to me that smart businessmen would want to keep data like this in their database so they can see who is buying what. It is called marketing. It does not harm the consumer. It helps the business, and this hopefully helps keep their prices down. Many places now have intelligent cash registers, its the wave of the future. I’ve seen this at Dick’s and at radio Shack, just to name a few. Oh, BTW, you dont need to pay by check to get entered into their database. They just ask you your name and address. This also helps when sending out their catalogs. John "Measure it 3 times, check it 2 times, cut it once" | John O’Brien | | Johnson & Johnson Clinical Diagnostics | | Rochester, NY |
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For credit card problems, start with the credit card company. They will take the information from you and make the store either prove you actually bought something (for in store purchase the store has to produce the signed charge slip) or cancel the charge.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WOODWORKERS WAREHOUSE / TRENDLINES cannot be trusted to use your credit card. Be very careful if you use a credit card with EITHER of these companies. It could happen to you too. JD, We have a WWH locally and I have an uneasy feeling about the place. The local manager is a non-customer oriented caveman. They track everything you buy in their stores–they ask you for your zipcode and last 4 phone digits. They then pull you up on their computer and have record of everything you buy from them. It bothers me that my buying records are so well kept. I told them so and now pay in cash (not check). Rick Haver
Guess what Rick?, If you ever buy anything with a credit card or debit card including groceries, you have a profile of everything you have ever bought in many different data bases that marketing companies use extensivly to judge the market place for various products or services. You are just seeing it done localy at WWH rather than globaly as it is done at other retailers. Big Brother is always watching ! Dennis Slabaugh, ARM Hobbyist Woodworker Dennis Slabaugh
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I had a nasty incident happen at the Woodworkers Warehouse new store in Watertown, NY. [snip - unhappy story about a credit card billing error and very poor customer service]
John, I have had a simlar experience with billing problems a couple of times. Any time you have a problem with a credit card, always call your credit card company. They place the burden of proof on the vendor. I hope you get this worked out. ThomD
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a nasty incident happen at the Woodworkers Warehouse new store in Watertown, NY. … deleted It didn’t make my statement until the Oct. billing & this is how I faired: Aug.23 Purchase $18.18 Aug.23 Purchase $18.18 Aug.24 Credit $18.18 Aug.24 Purchase $18.18 So, I’m out $36.36, they used my credit card number TWICE on the day after my visit without my permission, AND I still don’t have a set of hex keys to show for all this. I called the store, long distance, & the manager tells me he can’t do anything although he was one of the people ringing up my sale. He says I have to phone Trendlines in Mass.-says I have to talk to their accounting office and the number he gives me to call is for placing an order! They say they have no 1-800 number for the head office. I call another number from their catalog & get the same crap. I spoke to a supervisor and she takes my name & number and says she will pass it along & get them to call me. DOUBLE HA ! ! !
In situations of this nature, I have had very good results getting the Credit Card Company involved. Your case may or may not have difficulties associated with it. If the company cannot show a signed receipt (since this was supposedly an in-store purchase, the credit card company may be able to resolve this relatively quickly) you should be able to get this resolved through these channels. Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a big stick to get the results you need when dealing with large companies. Being placed in the bad graces of a particular credit card for various misdeeds can be really *bad* for a mail order company, therefore, IMHO, it seems that this may be readily resolved. Good Luck, Mark L. BTW, your warning will be heeded by more than a few 
. My opinions only, my employer has its own opinions
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I had a nasty incident happen at the Woodworkers Warehouse new store in Watertown, NY.
<snip WOODWORKERS WAREHOUSE / TRENDLINES cannot be trusted to use your credit card. Be very careful if you use a credit card with EITHER of these companies. It could happen to you too.
Yet another reason not to deal with this outfit. There is hope, however if you contact your card company and inquire as to their procedure for contesting charges on your account. Usually a written notice with the particulars is required. They will withhold payment until descrepencies are resolved. Contacting the NY attorney general may be another option. regards, DB
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WOODWORKERS WAREHOUSE / TRENDLINES cannot be trusted to use your credit card. Be very careful if you use a credit card with EITHER of these companies. It could happen to you too.
JD, We have a WWH locally and I have an uneasy feeling about the place. The local manager is a non-customer oriented caveman. They track everything you buy in their stores–they ask you for your zipcode and last 4 phone digits. They then pull you up on their computer and have record of everything you buy from them. It bothers me that my buying records are so well kept. I told them so and now pay in cash (not check). Rick Haver
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: : I called the store, long distance, & the manager tells me he can’t do anything : although he was one of the people ringing up my sale. He says I have to phone : Trendlines in Mass.-says I have to talk to their accounting office and the : number he gives me to call is for placing an order! They say they have no : 1-800 number for the head office. I call another number from their catalog : & get the same crap. I spoke to a supervisor and she takes my name & number : and says she will pass it along & get them to call me. DOUBLE HA ! ! ! : : In situations of this nature, I have had very good results getting : the Credit Card Company involved. Your case may or may not have : difficulties associated with it. If the company cannot show a signed : receipt (since this was supposedly an in-store purchase, the credit : card company may be able to resolve this relatively quickly) you should : be able to get this resolved through these channels. : Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a big stick to get the results : you need when dealing with large companies. Being placed in the : bad graces of a particular credit card for various misdeeds can : be really *bad* for a mail order company, therefore, IMHO, it seems : that this may be readily resolved. I second the suggestion, but also would suggest a *letter* to the credit card company to cover yourself legally. I believe that such a letter carries with it certain legal protections not obtained by a phone call. Mark
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I wasn’t either that impressed with the knowledgeablity of the people who worked in the Bloomfield, CT store. I asked for a simple demonstration on how is the blade retained in a Skill jig/saber saw and no one over there could explain it to me. The salesman couldn’t even figure it out by reading the manual and eventually just walked away from me. I probably will never visit that store again. And their prices for some of the stuff are not all that competitive. NG
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WOODWORKERS WAREHOUSE / TRENDLINES cannot be trusted to use your credit card. Be very careful if you use a credit card with EITHER of these companies. It could happen to you too. JD, We have a WWH locally and I have an uneasy feeling about the place. The local manager is a non-customer oriented caveman. They track everything you buy in their stores–they ask you for your zipcode and last 4 phone digits. They then pull you up on their computer and have record of everything you buy from them. It bothers me that my buying records are so well kept. I told them so and now pay in cash (not check).
Actually, wwh just recently started doing this, probably because their competitors like Woodcraft and Woodworkers Supply have been doing this for along time. Mark Miller
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I called the store, long distance, & the manager tells me he can’t do anything although he was one of the people ringing up my sale. He says I have to phone Trendlines in Mass.-says I have to talk to their accounting office and the number he gives me to call is for placing an order!
Don’t screw around with the merchant. Go straight to your credit card bank. I’m sure they’ve seen plenty of cases of multiple charges appearing in the same timeframe for the same amount. It’s something which can happen in the most innocent of circumstances as well as the most nefarious. They should turn things around in an instant and pu the burden of proof back on the merchant.
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