Question:

Kind of unbelievable that so much business is going on and yet there is so very little guitar music making it these days. Guitar Center, at least in Houston, isn’t all that much about guitars anymore.  Pro audio/ DJ equipment seems to rule the roost.

At the NYC Mannhattan store, the top floor is all guitar, bass, and drums. The downstairs is all keyboards, lighting, digital recording, DJ, mixers, etc. About equal space on both floors, so guitars still seem to be the biggest in terms of real estate. Doug

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kind of unbelievable that so much business is going on and yet there is so very little guitar music making it these days. Guitar Center, at least in Houston, isn’t all that much about guitars anymore.  Pro audio/ DJ equipment seems to rule the roost. At the NYC Mannhattan store, the top floor is all guitar, bass, and drums. The downstairs is all keyboards, lighting, digital recording, DJ, mixers, etc. About equal space on both floors, so guitars still seem to be the biggest in terms of real estate. Doug

It’s not just about square footage, it’s about what’s moving out the front door.  When I visit the (North Houston) store and see the same guitar inventory with the same missing parts, sporting same "mung" and the same crusty, out of tune strings that were there two or three months ago, it is fairly obvious where guitars fit in management’s priorities.

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looks like they outdid McDonalds, even Burger King..

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Apparently the sales people who work there don’t make dick for base pay…it’s all comission.

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WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Jan. 29, 2004–Guitar Center, Inc.(NASDAQ-NMS:GTRC) (Nasdaq NMS:GTRC) today reported that its net income for the fourth quarter of 2003 increased 47.1% to $19.7 million,

<snip For some real fun, post this on AGA and credit GC’s income increase to the Bush tax cuts and watch the fireworks fly.

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Kind of unbelievable that so much business is going on and yet there is so very little guitar music making it these days. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Kind of unbelievable that so much business is going on and yet there is so very little guitar music making it these days.

Guitar Center, at least in Houston, isn’t all that much about guitars anymore.  Pro audio/ DJ equipment seems to rule the roost.

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Kind of unbelievable that so much business is going on and yet there is so very little guitar music making it these days.

Depends on how you define "making it". MTV? No music is making it there. I think talented guitarists are making good money all around the country–plenty of audience for most genres. I know I’ve spent a lot of money on CDs, books, vids of my favorite artists this year. I think genuine music is making a major comeback that is ahead of the top of the industry–it’s a broad market that doesn’t peak on individual artists as in the days of Michael Jackson. I think individual "unknown" artists like Ed Gerhardt, Stanley Clark, and many of the jazz. blues and bluegrass guitarists are making a damned comfortable living. In addition, I think the general populace is so starved for genuine music that they’ve decided to make it themselves. Of all the instruments, the guitar is the most versatile tool–beating even the keyboard in expressive capabilities. More power to Guitar Center! Some of those millions of kids just starting out are going to eventually produce some decent stuff. ti     Tom Ivers President: Equine Racing Systems, Inc. http://www.equineracing.com http://www.egroups.com/group/horsescience

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WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Jan. 29, 2004–Guitar Center, Inc.(NASDAQ-NMS:GTRC) (Nasdaq NMS:GTRC) today reported that its net income for the fourth quarter of 2003 increased 47.1% to $19.7 million, or $0.78 per diluted share, compared to net income in the fourth quarter of 2002 of $13.4 million, or $0.57 per diluted share. Net income for the year ended December 31, 2003 increased 45.9% to $36.9 million, or $1.50 per diluted share, compared to net income for 2002 of $25.3 million, or $1.09 per diluted share. As previously announced, consolidated net sales for the quarter ended December 31, 2003 increased 18.2% to $395.8 million from $334.8 million in the same period last year. Net sales for the year ended December 31, 2003 increased 15.8% to $1.275 billion compared with $1.101 billion for 2002. Marty Albertson, president and co-chief executive officer of Guitar Center, said, "We are extremely pleased with the strong performance we achieved for the quarter and the year. Solid supply chain execution enabled us to capitalize on high traffic at our Guitar Center stores and, as a result of our improved infrastructure and systems at Musician’s Friend, we were poised to take advantage of increased Internet demand. Through better execution in the retail business at American Music we were also able to generate increased sales and an operating loss slightly smaller than we had expected for those stores." Mr. Albertson continued, "Our strong financial results for the fourth quarter enabled us to meet our goal of generating positive cash flow from operations for the year. Additionally, positive cash flow resulted in our having no borrowings outstanding on our line of credit at year-end. Based on the increasing momentum in our business in the second half of 2003, we are optimistic in our view of 2004." Guitar Center Stores Turn in Strong Performance During the fourth quarter, we opened flagship Guitar Center stores in Manhattan, New York and Nashville, Tennessee, as well as a large format store in Saginaw, Michigan. This brings our total number of stores opened in 2003 to 14. As reported on January 6th, net sales from Guitar Center stores were $306.3 million for the fourth quarter, an 18.2% increase from $259.2 million reported in the same period of 2002. Comparable Guitar Center store sales increased 10% for the quarter. Sales from new stores contributed $21 million and represent 44% of the total increase in Guitar Center store sales. Net sales from Guitar Center stores for 2003 totaled $979.0 million, a 13.9% increase from $859.6 million in 2002. Comparable Guitar Center store sales for the full year increased 7%. Sales from new stores contributed $60 million and represent 51% of the total increase in Guitar Center store sales. Fourth quarter gross margin for the Guitar Center stores, after buying and occupancy costs, was 27.7% compared with 27.9% in the fourth quarter of 2002. This decrease reflects increased freight costs, partially offset by leveraging of occupancy costs. Selling, general and administrative expenses for the Guitar Center stores, inclusive of corporate general and administrative expenses, were 19.3% as a percentage of sales compared with 20.1% in the fourth quarter of 2002. The decrease reflects leveraging due to higher than expected sales, partially offset by increased advertising and insurance expenses and profit sharing plan contribution accruals. Strong Sales Growth at American Music As previously announced, net sales from American Music stores were $11.0 million for the fourth quarter, a 14.6% increase from $9.6 million generated in the fourth quarter of 2002. Comparable American Music store sales increased 12% for the quarter. Net sales from American Music stores for 2003 totaled $38.2 million, a 17.5% increase from $32.5 million in 2002. Comparable American Music store sales for the full year increased 10%. Fourth quarter gross margin for the American Music stores was 34.3% compared with 18.4% in the fourth quarter of 2002. The fourth quarter 2002 gross margin was negatively impacted by inventory adjustments. Selling, general and administrative expenses for the American Music stores were 43.4% as a percentage of sales compared with 44.2% in the fourth quarter of 2002. Selling, general and administrative expenses reflect the continued systems implementation and infrastructure build out. As a result, we incurred an operating loss of $1.0 million for the fourth quarter for these stores, which was slightly smaller than expected. Direct Response Division Continues Growth In the fourth quarter, direct response sales increased 18.9% to $78.5 million from $66.0 million in the fourth quarter of 2002. Direct response sales increased 23.6% to $257.9 million in 2003 from $208.7 million in 2002. In the fourth quarter, gross margin for the direct response division was 32.5% compared with 31.3% in the fourth quarter of 2002. The increase in gross margin resulted primarily from an increase in selling margin. Selling, general and administrative expenses for the direct response division were 20.8% in the fourth quarter compared to 20.2% in the same period last year. The increase was primarily due to higher promotional activity to drive customers to the web site. During the fourth quarter, we changed our method of accounting for the direct response division whereby we do not recognize revenue until the estimated date an order is received by the customer, instead of the date shipped. This change resulted in a reduction of approximately $3.9 million in net sales, and of approximately $546,000 in net income, or $0.02 per diluted share, for the fourth quarter. Credit Agreement Amended We took advantage of our strong financial performance and favorable credit markets to amend our credit agreement during the fourth quarter. The amendment extended the facility to December 2007, reduced the interest rate spreads, reduced most of the fees, and relaxed a number of the restrictive covenants including those relating to debt incurrence, acquisitions, stock repurchases and similar matters. In light of currently expected needs, the applicable borrowing base and our desire to minimize fees, we elected to reduce the facility size to $125 million. At December 31, 2003, no borrowings were outstanding under this facility. Business Outlook We have already opened a large format Guitar Center store in Brookfield, Wisconsin and a small format store in Mobile, Alabama in the first quarter of 2004. We expect to open additional small format stores in Ft. Meyers, Florida and Toledo, Ohio during the first quarter of 2004. Based on current business and economic conditions, we continue to expect that first quarter 2004 net sales will be in the range of $323.2 million to $333.9 million and that first quarter 2004 diluted earnings per share will be in the range of $0.31 to $0.34, consistent with the guidance we previously provided for this quarter on December 4, 2003. The comments regarding the future financial performance in the immediately preceding paragraphs constitute forward-looking statements and are made in express reliance on the safe harbor provisions contained in Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. This information, as well as other forward-looking information provided, should be read in conjunction with the information under the caption "Business Risks and Forward Looking Statements" below. Source: (NASDAQ-NMS:GTRC)

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Question:

I read recently about a book (it cost the author his job) that listed some of the most common ways that several accounting rules were used in order to "cook the books"….can’t remember the title or author…does this sound familiar to anyone?

Accounting for Growth – Terry Smith Peter Saxton from London

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I read recently about a book (it cost the author his job) that listed some of the most common ways that several accounting rules were used in order to "cook the books"….can’t remember the title or author…does this sound familiar to anyone?  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

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Mr. Penis, There are plenty of books on the market that describe fraudulent accounting schemes in great detail.  Further, the designation of Certified Fraud Examiner (CFE) will indicate that an individual is trained in examinations to detect fraud.  Bookstores should be able to provide plenty of information on either. Good luck, Gene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read recently about a book (it cost the author his job) that listed some of the most common ways that several accounting rules were used in order to "cook the books"….can’t remember the title or author…does this sound familiar to anyone?  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Timothy Sutter wrote… Timothy Sutter wrote… by virtue of the fact that the night sky is not all lit up, theorists conclude that light has not had an infinite time to travel the distances of the universe, and therefore, modern cosmology sets a definite beginning to the material universe. this postulate will apply to matter/energy that is already in existence, and says nothing of the apparently evident statement that the material universe, i.e. matter and energy, did in fact have a beginning. Since you brought it up, just how does Dalton’s Postulate prove the energy/matter had a beginning?

this question does not show you to be a clever manipulator. this questions shows you to be a very confused person who cannot read ordinary english prose. you say that you are not confused, but this question says otherwise about you. if you will not acknowledge this, you bring me nothing. this question does -not- say; "ha ha, i’m just f—-ing with you" no, this question says; "i can’t read, and i don’t understand what’s placed before me enough to make a relevant statement about it, and therefore,  my ideography is just a haphazzard piecemeal construction with no real basis in substantive thinking." one of the dangers of this medium. that question has been asked by you, that question is "on the record" and that question does *not* say,  "i’m f—-ing with you" if you’d now like to say; "i’m f—-ing with you" you may do so. and then cast a clear taint of incredibility over your entire set of statements. either way, it doesn’t bode well for you standing here and addressing me as a peer. and as of right now, not even as a clever manipulator. I’d say that God is within you, as you. so, you’d say i, Timothy Sutter, am God. No, I’d say you are God (Nature) as Timothy Sutter. .. well, then, your usage of the term "God" is ill suited. I could clarify that a bit. I’m a Pantheist who believes that the universe conceived of as a whole is God and, conversely, that there is no God but the combined substance, forces, and laws that are manifested in the existing universe. ..

basically, you’re an atheist who wants to play silly games with words. sqirmy semantic manipulations and cowardly equivocations are boring. I’m an Ecletic Pantheist.)) do lies exist. Sure. ..

assuming lies are not "The Truth" then something aside from "The Truth" exists. generally, when those of your ilk speak of "truth" they maintain that "the truth is what is" and in your case, you’d have to agree that "the truth is nature" however, allowing that lies exist leaves you in a bit of a conflict. you will be forced to tell me that "lies are truth" and "lies are not truth" and therefore, you offer up a "yes equals no" proposition. and this, is not, "balance and harmony" do this; change your name again, and come back when you can satisfactorily reconcile your contradictions. by virtue of the fact that the night sky is not all lit up, theorists conclude that light has not had an infinite time to travel the distances of the universe, and therefore, modern cosmology sets a definite beginning to the material universe. The beginning of our present material Universe was preceded by the collapse of the last one. Every Big Bang is followed by an equally Big Crunch, which in turn is followed by the next Big Bang. It’s a rythm that never ends. Some have called it the heartbeat of God. I just see it as the balance and harmony which is at the heart of all things, the Tao. ..

baseless belief. if such a thing were possible, and "Nature" has no will and or consciousness, then there is absolutely no way for any knowledge of one "Universe" to carry over to the next and therefore, it is nothing but a baseless speculation on your part. and aside from the material universe, what exactly do you consider "Nature" EVERYTHING

this is a private definition of Nature. and not a very useful one. if you are now redefining "Nature" to include some non-atomic ’stuff’ i.e entirely immaterial as we know material, now is your opportunity to clearly do so, or you simply inject more confusing rhetoric in to your belief structure. ONE

the term "nature" presumes "birth" that’s what nature means, like pre-natal, post-natal, and neo-natal. you are claiming a thing gives birth to itself. by using these terms one describes nature as being born, and something as giving birth to nature. now, if you will kindly lose -your- hang-ups about human gender identification, we can say "God gave birth to nature." and God has always existed. while we can convince ourselves quite readily that nature has not always existed. to continue using the term "nature" inappropriately, will now suggest that you mean only to infuse confusing rhetoric into your belief system in order to initiate and spread discord in other people’s belief systems. just saying, "oh, i’m going to use it my way anyway" will just make you look ignorant. not exactly, the postulated composition of the ’stuff’ commonly referred to as a "plasma" that was supposedly around and about in the first moments of time and spacial expansion is neither matter nor energy, but some composite of both. Energy and Matter are manifestations of each other. ..

irrelevant to the constitution of the pre-expansion [Time T=0] material Universe. what "existed" before that epoch is unknowable to physical manipulative discovery. No, not yet. ..

not ever thru physical "sciences" therefore, not "Nature" therefore, it can be stated with a very high degree of certainty that something aside from "Nature" exists. Sorry, but that’s your chosen assumption. You’ve proven nothing. Just saying something doen’t make it so. I can show you Nature. Beyond your faith, you can’t show me that something aside from Nature exists. ..

but i can show you that something that cannot be descibed with physical qualities must exist. and that’s what i did. this postulate will apply to matter/energy that is already in existence, and says nothing of the apparently evident statement that the material universe, i.e. matter and energy, did in fact have a beginning. Since you brought it up, just how does Dalton’s Postulate prove the energy/matter had a beginning?

go ahead and make it obvious that you only wish to play silly little games. apparently because you don’t know what you are talking about. remember the bit about the night sky not being all lit up and therefore one can draw the conclusion that electromagnetic radiation has not been around for an infinity. All energy becomes the next singularity, so yes, when it does, it’s not around as light. There is no light. ..

this is a nonsense statement. it’s not based on any finding of fact, nor experience other than reading it scrawled on the bathroom wall somewhere, and therefore is relegated to pure speculation bordering on fantasy. do you know the difference between speculation and finding of fact? you have not the ability to make such a statement that "energy has always existed" in what form? in wavelengths and frequencies? care to demonstrate how you know this? or can know this? Can you and/or anyone else destroy energy? Can you make it?

this doesn’t address the constituent make-up of the [time T=0] Universe. look, DNA is a complete set of instructions for the production of living things from so-called inanimate matter. DNA is a pattern of energy, a pattern that can change. ..

doesn’t address problem. based on previous statements, it seems likely that you simply don’t understand the problem. not that i haven’t set it out very clearly, and in simple terms, before you. that is, the algorithm is written upon the material that constitutes algorithm. and as you may well agree, algorithms don’t write themselves in to existence. They are abstracted from existing and eternal laws of Nature,  patterns that Energy follows as it flows forward through time to its potential. ..

doesn’t understand problem. all your "laws of nature" require stuff to be governed by them. now kindly describe the "laws" that govern the [time T=0] Universe, when, as far as can be relevantly understood, no such "things" existed. and -then- you can try again to make your baseless statements about algorithms. either way, you have what amounts to a very definite anomaly in that we see an algorithm, but we do not see the author. can we surmise the existance of an author from the evident work? Nature creates itself, and evolution within the context of time is its tool.

time needs stuff to exist. without stuff, time vanishes. you have yet to demonstrate clearly and decisively that stuff has "always existed." and there is evidence, presented here even, that stuff has not always existed. therefore time has not always existed. without time, no "slow gradual change" may occur. therefore, the material universe could not have become thru evolution, or slow gradual change. It does not have will,

"the material universe by accident" but it does have law.

and your assessment violates these laws. it is the acknowledgement of these "laws" that point to a beginning. for there to be no "beginning" one must violate or misunderstand these laws. There is no author, no creation.

that’s not what the existance of algorithms in nature suggests. The cause and effect are a seamless whole, One, not Two. ..

violates the second law. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in all other case of instructed machinations, yes, we can surmise an

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pumpkin

 pumpkin

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so anyway, having established that as a fact, ay, i got a pumpkin on my little vine out in the backyard. i put some punkpin seeds in the ground and two vines grewed and they got some first they got some little green sorta like buds onnem, and then they turned into sort of orange blossoms and some of’em fell off, but there’s a little green punkin on both little vines. i thought they wuz supposed to be orange but they look green like little watermelons but i figure they’ll turn orange soon enough and then oh i pinched off some of the green buds cuz i didn’t want to have to many punkins on the vine cuz i figure they’d be smaller and wouldn’t get as big if there were too many on a vine. and i watered’em today, cuz it was real hot and they looked all wilted and stuff. the leaves looked all wilted, so i watered’em. i may pinch off some more of the little buds that don’t have no orange onnem so the little punkin gets all big and stuff and i can eat it come halloween.

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Pumpkins will be green like every thing else until it is time for harvest and then they will turn orange and get ripe. but if you want a  very good pumpkin to store in he cellar it is best if they get nipped by a good frost but not frozen. M,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so anyway, having established that as a fact, ay, i got a pumpkin on my little vine out in the backyard. i put some punkpin seeds in the ground and two vines grewed and they got some first they got some little green sorta like buds onnem, and then they turned into sort of orange blossoms and some of’em fell off, but there’s a little green punkin on both little vines. i thought they wuz supposed to be orange but they look green like little watermelons but i figure they’ll turn orange soon enough and then oh i pinched off some of the green buds cuz i didn’t want to have to many punkins on the vine cuz i figure they’d be smaller and wouldn’t get as big if there were too many on a vine. and i watered’em today, cuz it was real hot and they looked all wilted and stuff. the leaves looked all wilted, so i watered’em. i may pinch off some more of the little buds that don’t have no orange onnem so the little punkin gets all big and stuff and i can eat it come halloween.

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Pumpkins will be green like every thing else until it is time for harvest and then they will turn orange and get ripe. but if you want a very good pumpkin to store in he cellar it is best if they get nipped by a good frost but not frozen.

that makes sense, somewhat like chrysanthemumums and christmiss cactusseses. but with those, the cold is a trigger to bloom. with pumpkins, i’d figure it maybe the cold causes them to produce more sugars or something like that.

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pumpkin

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Timothy Sutter wrote… I’d say that God is within you, as you. so, you’d say i, Timothy Sutter, am God. No, I’d say you are God (Nature) as Timothy Sutter. .. well, then, your usage of the term "God" is ill suited.

I could clarify that a bit. I’m a Pantheist who believes that the universe conceived of as a whole is God and, conversely, that there is no God but the combined substance, forces, and laws that are manifested in the existing universe. .. to say "Nature is God" has no real meaning and can only lead to confusion.

I was speaking for myself, not anyone else. I’m not confused.)) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. .. and you’d say the set of "us" which, apparently, holds -you- is a human. Yes, I do. .. great, you’re a human being, no confusing rhetoric there. this would be the "slap you around with the literal sense of your statement" routine. you call me, Timothy Sutter, God and place yourself in "us" and call that human. the following would be based on the assumption that you place me, Timothy Sutter in "us" and call human beings God; Actually, I’d spell God as Nature, and yes, we are Nature manifesting itself as humans. .. then, for you, you may as well simply drop the term "God" as it carries no significant meaning for you which is not properly reckoned by the term "Nature"

No, I think I’ll keep it, but yes, it’s obvious that we each define God quite differently. .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you write: I’d say that God is within you, as you. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. .. here’s the skeletal breakdown; God is you[human] you[human] is Nature and here’s the conclusion; God is Nature Yes. .. then drop the term "God".

No, I think I’ll keep it, but I’ll be happy to explain just what I mean when I say "God" to anyone who’s interested. .. for you, it has no real meaning. this is generally referred to as Pantheism. I’m an Ecletic Pantheist.)) do lies exist.

Sure. .. do you say that God is a lie?

God is what we say He/She and/or It is. Afterall, for most, God is made in man’s image. I’d agree with Jelaluddan Rumi, however, when he says, "There is no reality but God. There is only God." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a lie is not truth or the truth and therefore, is not God inasmuch as God is what is or the truth. if a lie exists, and a lie is not God, then there is something which exists which is not God and therefore, not all things are God. therefore, Pantheism, eclectic or otherwise, falls short of a correct description of things as they are. if, a lie or lies exist. if you say no such thing exists, i’d suggest that you are probably lieing to me, as i bet you probably will agree that such a thing exists.

I’m not lying to you, Timothy. I’m just telling you what I believe. .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – generally used to strip the universe of a Creative Personality and place the human consciousness as a manifestation of the accidental disintegration of the Godhead. that the Universe was not a purposed action but an accident. I’d say neither. The Universe has always existed. by virtue of the fact that the night sky is not all lit up, theorists conclude that light has not had an infinite time to travel the distances of the universe, and therefore, modern cosmology sets a definite beginning to the material universe.

The beginning of our present material Universe was preceded by the collapse of the last one. Every Big Bang is followed by an equally Big Crunch, which in turn is followed by the next Big Bang. It’s a rythm that never ends. Some have called it the heartbeat of God. I just see it as the balance and harmony which is at the heart of all things, the Tao. .. i have no reason to dispute this because it seems logically sound. so, you’d have to give some reason why you think the material universe has always existed, and not just offer up a "because i say so" and some ancillary descriptive statements.

Let’s get something straight, Timothy. I don’t have to do anything. Neither do you. .. and aside from the material universe, what exactly do you consider "Nature"

EVERYTHING if you are now redefining "Nature" to include some non-atomic ’stuff’ i.e entirely immaterial as we know material, now is your opportunity to clearly do so, or you simply inject more confusing rhetoric in to your belief structure.

ONE and i say "belief structure" because i’m not sure that you have any experiential datums to offer up as support for your above statement. It only changes as it moves forward into its potential. .. then, it may become evident to you that the term "Nature" does not fully describe the universe. as one may insist that you relegate the term "Nature" to what is materially definable.

Once again, EVERYTHING. .. just a second, see below for more. there is insufficient physical data to support the notion that any living tissue will rise from the kitchen floor by random collisions of ‘non-living’ molecules or that algorithms will simply write themselves into existence from the kitchen floor by accident. And? and can you show an instance that may dismantle this statement?

It’s your statement. You dismantle it. .. On the contrary a wealth of observation supports the very opposite notion that Life begats Life and that DNA is the template for its own replication. Matter is Energy becoming itself. .. not exactly, the postulated composition of the ’stuff’ commonly referred to as a "plasma" that was supposedly around and about in the first moments of time and spacial expansion is neither matter nor energy, but some composite of both.

Energy and Matter are manifestations of each other. .. what "existed" before that epoch is unknowable to physical manipulative discovery.

No, not yet. .. therefore, not "Nature" therefore, it can be stated with a very high degree of certainty that something aside from "Nature" exists.

Sorry, but that’s your chosen assumption. You’ve proven nothing. Just saying something doen’t make it so. I can show you Nature. Beyond your faith, you can’t show me that something aside from Nature exists. .. that is, ‘we’ observe that Life springs from that which is already alive, number one. Energy has always been. You can’t create it, or destroy it,  but it can change. .. you’re misapplying dalton’s postulate. this postulate will apply to matter/energy that is already in existence, and says nothing of the apparently evident statement that the material universe, i.e. matter and energy, did in fact have a beginning.

Since you brought it up, just how does Dalton’s Postulate prove the energy/matter had a beginning? remember the bit about the night sky not being all lit up and therefore one can draw the conclusion that electromagnetic radiation has not been around for an infinity.

All energy becomes the next singularity, so yes, when it does, it’s not around as light. There is no light. .. you have not the ability to make such a statement that "energy has always existed" in what form? in wavelengths and frequencies? care to demonstrate how you know this? or can know this?

Can you and/or anyone else destroy energy? Can you make it? and, that algorithms never write themselves in to existence, number two. No, we do that. We are Nature’s conceptual beings, that place in Nature that can write algorithms. .. look, DNA is a complete set of instructions for the production of living things from so-called inanimate matter.

DNA is a pattern of energy, a pattern that can change. .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and this complete set of instructions is itself encoded -on- the material that it describes. that is, one could argue that the algorithm that runs your web browser is immaterial and resides solely in the mind of the manufacturer, and what is encoded on magnetic strips is not the algorithm itself, but, in the case of DNA, the molecule -is- the algorithm. that is, the algorithm is written upon the material that constitutes algorithm. and as you may well agree, algorithms don’t write themselves in to existence.

They are abstracted from existing and eternal laws of Nature, patterns that Energy follows as it flows forward through time to its potential. .. either way, you have what amounts to a very definite anomaly in that we see an algorithm, but we do not see the author. can we surmise the existance of an author from the evident work?

Nature creates itself, and evolution within the context of time is its tool. It does not have will, but it does have law. There is no author, no creation. The cause and effect are a seamless whole, One, not Two. .. in all other case of instructed machinations, yes, we can surmise an author. for one, in the case of DNA, to discount the existance of an author would be to go against his own observations that instruction sets require an author.

What authored the author? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – algorithms arise from the purposeful assembly of instruction sets by an outside agency. the central dogma of molecular biology would state; DNA —  RNA  – Protein and never; RNA — Protein — DNA nor Protein — RNA — DNA and the central dogma of genetics would say; "DNA is the template for its own replication" I’d say the balance and harmony of the Tao is the templete of replication, the

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Timothy Sutter wrote… I’d say that God is within you, as you. so, you’d say i, Timothy Sutter, am God. No, I’d say you are God (Nature) as Timothy Sutter. ..

well, then, your usage of the term "God" is ill suited. to say "Nature is God" has no real meaning and can only lead to confusion. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. .. and you’d say the set of "us" which, apparently, holds -you- is a human. Yes, I do. ..

great, you’re a human being, no confusing rhetoric there. this would be the "slap you around with the literal sense of your statement" routine. you call me, Timothy Sutter, God and place yourself in "us" and call that human. the following would be based on the assumption that you place me, Timothy Sutter in "us" and call human beings God; Actually, I’d spell God as Nature, and yes, we are Nature manifesting itself as humans. ..

then, for you, you may as well simply drop the term "God" as it carries no significant meaning for you which is not properly reckoned by the term "Nature" you write: I’d say that God is within you, as you. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. .. here’s the skeletal breakdown; God is you[human] you[human] is Nature and here’s the conclusion; God is Nature Yes. ..

then drop the term "God". for you, it has no real meaning. this is generally referred to as Pantheism. I’m an Ecletic Pantheist.))

do lies exist. do you say that God is a lie? a lie is not truth or the truth and therefore, is not God inasmuch as God is what is or the truth. if a lie exists, and a lie is not God, then there is something which exists which is not God and therefore, not all things are God. therefore, Pantheism, eclectic or otherwise, falls short of a correct description of things as they are. if, a lie or lies exist. if you say no such thing exists, i’d suggest that you are probably lieing to me, as i bet you probably will agree that such a thing exists. generally used to strip the universe of a Creative Personality and place the human consciousness as a manifestation of the accidental disintegration of the Godhead. that the Universe was not a purposed action but an accident. I’d say neither. The Universe has always existed.

by virtue of the fact that the night sky is not all lit up, theorists conclude that light has not had an infinite time to travel the distances of the universe, and therefore, modern cosmology sets a definite beginning to the material universe. i have no reason to dispute this because it seems logically sound. so, you’d have to give some reason why you think the material universe has always existed, and not just offer up a "because i say so" and some ancillary descriptive statements. and aside from the material universe, what exactly do you consider "Nature" if you are now redefining "Nature" to include some non-atomic ’stuff’ i.e entirely immaterial as we know material, now is your opportunity to clearly do so, or you simply inject more confusing rhetoric in to your belief structure. and i say "belief structure" because i’m not sure that you have any experiential datums to offer up as support for your above statement. It only changes as it moves forward into its potential. ..

then, it may become evident to you that the term "Nature" does not fully describe the universe. as one may insist that you relegate the term "Nature" to what is materially definable. just a second, see below for more. there is insufficient physical data to support the notion that any living tissue will rise from the kitchen floor by random collisions of ‘non-living’ molecules or that algorithms will simply write themselves into existence from the kitchen floor by accident. And?

and can you show an instance that may dismantle this statement? On the contrary a wealth of observation supports the very opposite notion that Life begats Life and that DNA is the template for its own replication. Matter is Energy becoming itself. ..

not exactly, the postulated composition of the ’stuff’ commonly referred to as a "plasma" that was supposedly around and about in the first moments of time and spacial expansion is neither matter nor energy, but some composite of both. what "existed" before that epoch is unknowable to physical manipulative discovery. therefore, not "Nature" therefore, it can be stated with a very high degree of certainty that something aside from "Nature" exists. that is, ‘we’ observe that Life springs from that which is already alive, number one. Energy has always been. You can’t create it, or destroy it,  but it can change. ..

you’re misapplying dalton’s postulate. this postulate will apply to matter/energy that is already in existence, and says nothing of the apparently evident statement that the material universe, i.e. matter and energy, did in fact have a beginning. remember the bit about the night sky not being all lit up and therefore one can draw the conclusion that electromagnetic radiation has not been around for an infinity. you have not the ability to make such a statement that "energy has always existed" in what form? in wavelengths and frequencies? care to demonstrate how you know this? or can know this? and, that algorithms never write themselves in to existence, number two. No, we do that. We are Nature’s conceptual beings, that place in Nature that can write algorithms. ..

look, DNA is a complete set of instructions for the production of living things from so-called inanimate matter. and this complete set of instructions is itself encoded -on- the material that it describes. that is, one could argue that the algorithm that runs your web browser is immaterial and resides solely in the mind of the manufacturer, and what is encoded on magnetic strips is not the algorithm itself, but, in the case of DNA, the molecule -is- the algorithm. that is, the algorithm is written upon the material that constitutes algorithm. and as you may well agree, algorithms don’t write themselves in to existence. either way, you have what amounts to a very definite anomaly in that we see an algorithm, but we do not see the author. can we surmise the existance of an author from the evident work? in all other case of instructed machinations, yes, we can surmise an author. for one, in the case of DNA, to discount the existance of an author would be to go against his own observations that instruction sets require an author. algorithms arise from the purposeful assembly of instruction sets by an outside agency. the central dogma of molecular biology would state; DNA —  RNA  – Protein and never; RNA — Protein — DNA nor Protein — RNA — DNA and the central dogma of genetics would say; "DNA is the template for its own replication" I’d say the balance and harmony of the Tao is the templete of replication, the Way. ..

"there is no Tao" when you come to understand the meaning of this phrase, you’ll understand the meaning of this phrase. at any rate, "DNA is the template for its replication" is a very solid finding of fact. if you’d like to say these other things about balance and harmony, that’s nice, but it won’t lead to any conclusion that DNA raised itself from the kitchen floor. DNA, here, is our algorithm and we observe, essentially, that DNA is a primary necessity for the production of DNA and this has never been observed to be violated in any manner. and so, what -you- "say" leaves us with a quandary that a purposed phenomenon like an algorithm, wrote itself into existance by accident. You aren’t an accident.

then there’s more to the universe than "Nature" You are Nature yearning to know itself,

Nature likes to be dead, i don’t, one may conclude that there is more than nature in me. maybe you’ll need to re-examine exactly what you mean by "nature" and then tell. and apparently, you know quite a lot.))

i just make stuff up as i go along. this is contrary to all observation and must, therefore, be discarded as a self evident falsehood. now, you -should- be able to see *exactly* why the "science" of ‘evolution’ is a big fat lie. I see evolution as the process, the Way of change. ..

adaptivity is what you see. you don’t see "something from nothing" that would be a magic and even Jeanie doesn’t do magic. remember, she said if she floods a desert, the water has to some from somewhere else. but that’s another story it steamrolls overtop of physical observation and overwrites it with some simplistic metaphysical lie gleaned from the entrails of an owl. as far as physical observation is concerned, a purposeful Creative Event is exactly necessary. and this is no accident. You sound as though you believe in the Intelligent Design of the Universe.

i’ve met my maker. how can i suppose otherwise? If so, maybe you could tell me who designed the designer. ..

let me first take you in to a ‘world’ where time does not exist. can you grasp that? and then, first off, it becomes a meaningless statement to say that anything has "always existed" because "always" is lost in the timelessness of eternity. not "everlasting time" but no time at all. with me so far? so, what we can posit with certainty is that the universe had a beginning and "something" existed before that beginning, but, that, the concept of time did not, as yet exist. and so, the intelligent design may be considered the issue of a reflection of what "existed" before the beginning with some few exeptions. chief among those is the lie. and the short version is this;

… read more »

Response:

I’d say that God is within you, as you. so, you’d say i, Timothy Sutter, am God.

No, I’d say you are God (Nature) as Timothy Sutter. .. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. .. and you’d say the set of "us" which, apparently, holds -you- is a human.

Yes, I do. .. this would be the "slap you around with the literal sense of your statement" routine. you call me, Timothy Sutter, God and place yourself in "us" and call that human. the following would be based on the assumption that you place me, Timothy Sutter in "us" and call human beings God;

Actually, I’d spell God as Nature, and yes, we are Nature manifesting itself as humans. .. you write: I’d say that God is within you, as you. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. .. here’s the skeletal breakdown; God is you[human] you[human] is Nature and here’s the conclusion; God is Nature

Yes. .. this is generally referred to as Pantheism.

I’m an Ecletic Pantheist.)) generally used to strip the universe of a Creative Personality and place the human consciousness as a manifestation of the accidental disintegration of the Godhead. that the Universe was not a purposed action but an accident.

I’d say neither. The Universe has always existed. It only changes as it moves forward into its potential. .. there is insufficient physical data to support the notion that any living tissue will rise from the kitchen floor by random collisions of ‘non-living’ molecules or that algorithms will simply write themselves into existence from the kitchen floor by accident.

And? On the contrary a wealth of observation supports the very opposite notion that Life begats Life and that DNA is the template for its own replication.

Matter is Energy becoming itself. .. that is, ‘we’ observe that Life springs from that which is already alive, number one.

Energy has always been. You can’t create it, or destroy it, but it can change. .. and, that algorithms never write themselves in to existence, number two.

No, we do that. We are Nature’s conceptual beings, that place in Nature that can write algorithms. .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – algorithms arise from the purposeful assembly of instruction sets by an outside agency. the central dogma of molecular biology would state; DNA —  RNA  – Protein and never; RNA — Protein — DNA nor Protein — RNA — DNA and the central dogma of genetics would say; "DNA is the template for its own replication"

I’d say the balance and harmony of the Tao is the templete of replication, the Way. .. DNA, here, is our algorithm and we observe, essentially, that DNA is a primary necessity for the production of DNA and this has never been observed to be violated in any manner. and so, what -you- "say" leaves us with a quandary that a purposed phenomenon like an algorithm, wrote itself into existance by accident.

You aren’t an accident. You are Nature yearning to know itself, and apparently, you know quite a lot.)) this is contrary to all observation and must, therefore, be discarded as a self evident falsehood. now, you -should- be able to see *exactly* why the "science" of ‘evolution’ is a big fat lie.

I see evolution as the process, the Way of change. .. it steamrolls overtop of physical observation and overwrites it with some simplistic metaphysical lie gleaned from the entrails of an owl. as far as physical observation is concerned, a purposeful Creative Event is exactly necessary. and this is no accident.

You sound as though you believe in the Intelligent Design of the Universe. If so, maybe you could tell me who designed the designer. ..  Ape:)

Response:

some guy a long while back, maybe even before 1948 came up with the brilliant notion while vomitting up last nights drunken binge that the world was filled with imperfection and therefore could not have been designed by a perfect Being.

see, like, one thing is this, this guy’s up there dictating God’s perfection according to his own "sacred" point of view. he’s saying, "i find fault with this this and that, and therefore, this place was not invented by my idea of who God should be because *I*, the great me, should not find anything at all to balk at God about." and you can play around with all the various permutations of this attitude as makes your day spin by. he points at the small child who was murdered by a streetcar, and says, "how awful" but what he’s really dissatisfied with is the fact that he didn’t get chocolate pudding for breakfast last night. or whenever it was. after all, he was responsible for running the little kid over in the first place, cuz his mind was pre-occupied with liver and haircurlers. so, he says; "this place was not invented by the real God, and therefore, i don’t have to pay heed to anyone’s suggestions about behavior but my own." but he’s holding up his own invention as the established order that God supposedly didn’t create. so, he’s correct in suggesting that God didn’t create his nightmare, but he’s incorrect to suggest that his nightmare is God’s established order. he’s playing hide and seek with himself. a fool’s game. this, of course, seen thru the broken prism of his shattered eyeglasses.

he’s judging God thru his, admittedly incomplete, sense apparatus. he visits the graveyard and knows that’s where he’s headed, and deduces a nemesis. this ‘evil’ maniac is everywhere, and so, he deduces, this ‘evil’ maniac made his bed for him. but what he fails to see is that this ‘evil’ maniac is his own dis-guise. his own case of mistaken identity. invented because he can’t see but a brief glimpse and incomplete. shattered in a barroom brawl he had with an empty chair in the corner of the juke joint.

he may know there’s something more, he just can’t place his finger on it, and therefore, he’s troubled. "God isn’t mocking me God doesn’t exist"

he loses all hope. abandons it, even. odd isn’t it?

Response:

i saw this sandwich board that read; "i am God and so are you, the only difference is that I realize this and you don’t" but i can’t quite agree with that. if you were "born of God" you’d recognize this as a personal miracle. you’d have -some- sort of knowledge of this thing. the way i figure it is that everyone is born a ‘potential’ Temple for God to dwell in the flesh. but God needs to sweep in and clear out the dead man’s bones and replace that with Christ, or Messiah, or whathaveyou. God must complete this thing you were created to be. i’m sure i’ve mentioned before as to how the begettal to child of God is instantaneous followed by what may be considered a somewhat difficult labor into fruition. a true labor of Love carried out by Christ thru Faith in the Holy Spirit. another thing, in The Law, various things makes one "unclean" until evening or for longer periods of time, and the consequences of this uncleanness seems to be that this person cannot enter into the sanctuary or touch any sacred objects. but see, -we- feel that ritual purity thru The Law is, by and large, a shadow, and Christ or Messiah is the reality. that is, ritual purity is a shadow and the reality is God dwelling in the flesh. you know, like, shadows sort of show a flattened out image of the thing itself. and, at very best, this shadow *can* -only- yield a whitewashed tomb. but the reality is God in you. let Jesus circumcise your heart. let the valley of dry bones walk again.

Response:

i saw this sandwich board that read; "i am God and so are you, the only difference is that I realize this and you don’t" but i can’t quite agree with that.

can’t even come close to any agreement with this perverse notion. it’s the same old perverse lie. with this statement, "you are God only you just don’t know it" you have God committing crimes of violence and hatred against itself in either a willful manner or unwittingly. it’s the same perverse notion that says God created you to lie cheat steal rob and do murder only to turn around and punish you for it. you were created to good works. you ain’t finished until God seals you with the likeness of God from outer space. yes, i mean, "…to good works" and not "…to do good works" some people may write, "..unto good works" at any rate, steer clear of these perverse notions. sure, it sounds all sweet and stuff; "you’re God you just don’t know it" but just examine what that says about God. uh uh bub, no way. these are perversions of writ and an affront to any logical construct. and to be shunned at all costs. that’s why they call them "pernicious liars" [sophist] http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=sophist they don’t love wisdom, they absolutely hate and despise God.

Response:

you were created to good works. you ain’t finished until God seals you with the likeness of God from outer space.

and, more correctly, your seal of Faith in the Holy Spirit is just an earnest downpayment. but then you get into this sort of bit; "you were viewed as complete and holy from square one, and now you are becoming what you are" you can goof around with that sentiment in any number of ways. "the seed that was planted was perfect and holy and it grows into a perfect and holy thing" but then, ‘twould appear, God will strip off the flesh entirely. sort of like you’re in a cocoon right now. and this magnificent Creation will burst forth. but this comes from ‘above’ and not from your mommy and daddy. bless their hearts.

Response:

you have to open a bank account with God. not everybody has a bank account with God. so, when they die, it’s basically ashes to ashes and dust to dust. thru Christ, it’s basically individual accounts that are set up, and no national identity brings a previous benefit nor debt into this accounting process. it’s true that Israel, that peculiar people, from way back when, had a national account with the Almighty. but apparently, most individuals simply went directly in to debt with God and God was exacting repayment in an ongoing basis. and whereas, you can now, thru Christ, reap some reward in the present physical manifestation, and much greater rewards for the hereafter, Israel was also reaping a physical debt both nationally and on an individual basis. now, thru Christ, there is a certain debt amnesty that goes along with this account. sort of an automatic reckoning according to the law and an immediate forgiveness of all debts public and private. but it’s no travesty of Justice either. applies to everyone.

Response:

now, thru Christ, there is a certain debt amnesty that goes along with this account. sort of an automatic reckoning according to the law and an immediate forgiveness of all debts public and private. but it’s no travesty of Justice either. applies to everyone.

in case you couldn’t recognize this those other bits about everyone being God and blah blah blah is just some insidious purpose to remove accountability from your midst. etch Personalized God out of the picture, remove accountability to an ultimate perfection. but you’ll also find out that it doesn’t stop at "do as you please, you’re God" it progresses to "do as the state tells you, we know best" some guy a long while back, maybe even before 1948 came up with the brilliant notion while vomitting up last nights drunken binge that the world was filled with imperfection and therefore could not have been designed by a perfect Being. this, of course, seen thru the broken prism of his shattered eyeglasses. shattered in a barroom brawl he had with an empty chair in the corner of the juke joint. he realized, of course, that he was accountable to his own bad habits but found that when he prayed to "God" to remove his indigestion, all he got was a faint ringing in his ears that sounded like the record in the juke box skipping saying; "run run a runaway…run run a runaway…run run a runaway…" only he had no place to go, he locked the liquor cabinet and needed a drink and couldn’t get back in. his only option was to break the glass and steal a drink. so, he looked around and exclaimed; "God isn’t mocking me God doesn’t exist" "i’ll just help myself to whatever i want and then run away" but someone was watching him, and shaking their head; "tsk tsk, drunk again, and now you want -me- to buy you a drink" and that’s when he developed his spiel about how everyone was God and all they had to do was realize it and go about their business and "who cares cuz we’re all gunna die tomorrow anywho and God don’t even care enough to take away this major headache i have and only you are here to give me a load of crap cuz i need a drink and you got some in your glass only you won’t share it with me and that makes me better than you cvuz i’d share mine with you if i had some." and, "i’ll pay you back later" only he didn’t mean a word of it. he just wanted another drink and that’s all. so he could resume his argument with the chair. he was trying to convince the chair that if there -was- a God, God was a drunk who had a heavy binge and vommitted out the universe by accident and left us to clean up his mess. truth be known, that person was solely responsible for his own condition, only he couldn’t face up to the fine mess he’d got himself in to and so he kept trying to blame it on ollie. only there wasn’t really an ollie, and only an empty chair. and that’s how he saw everything. and he wants you to see things that way as well. only it obviously ain’t well. it’s just an empty pit with no water in it at all. and that’s what he is. even if he does manage to bring up the black bile on occasion. stumbling around in the dark, cursing the chair.

Response:

I’d say that God is within you, as you.

so, you’d say i, Timothy Sutter, am God. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. ..

and you’d say the set of "us" which, apparently, holds -you- is a human. this would be the "slap you around with the literal sense of your statement" routine. you call me, Timothy Sutter, God and place yourself in "us" and call that human. the following would be based on the assumption that you place me, Timothy Sutter in "us" and call human beings God; you write: I’d say that God is within you, as you. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. ..

here’s the skeletal breakdown; God is you[human] you[human] is Nature and here’s the conclusion; God is Nature this is generally referred to as Pantheism. generally used to strip the universe of a Creative Personality and place the human consciousness as a manifestation of the accidental disintegration of the Godhead. that the Universe was not a purposed action but an accident. there is insufficient physical data to support the notion that any living tissue will rise from the kitchen floor by random collisions of ‘non-living’ molecules or that algorithms will simply write themselves into existence from the kitchen floor by accident. On the contrary a wealth of observation supports the very opposite notion that Life begats Life and that DNA is the template for its own replication. that is, ‘we’ observe that Life springs from that which is already alive, number one. and, that algorithms never write themselves in to existence, number two. algorithms arise from the purposeful assembly of instruction sets by an outside agency. the central dogma of molecular biology would state; DNA —  RNA  – Protein and never; RNA — Protein — DNA nor Protein — RNA — DNA and the central dogma of genetics would say; "DNA is the template for its own replication" DNA, here, is our algorithm and we observe, essentially, that DNA is a primary necessity for the production of DNA and this has never been observed to be violated in any manner. and so, what -you- "say" leaves us with a quandary that a purposed phenomenon like an algorithm, wrote itself into existance by accident. this is contrary to all observation and must, therefore, be discarded as a self evident falsehood. now, you -should- be able to see *exactly* why the "science" of ‘evolution’ is a big fat lie. it steamrolls overtop of physical observation and overwrites it with some simplistic metaphysical lie gleaned from the entrails of an owl. as far as physical observation is concerned, a purposeful Creative Event is exactly necessary. and this is no accident.

Response:

I’d say that God is within you, as you. Each of us is Nature manifesting itself as a human. .. Ape;)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i saw this sandwich board that read; "i am God and so are you, the only difference is that I realize this and you don’t" but i can’t quite agree with that. if you were "born of God" you’d recognize this as a personal miracle. you’d have -some- sort of knowledge of this thing. the way i figure it is that everyone is born a ‘potential’ Temple for God to dwell in the flesh. but God needs to sweep in and clear out the dead man’s bones and replace that with Christ, or Messiah, or whathaveyou. God must complete this thing you were created to be. i’m sure i’ve mentioned before as to how the begettal to child of God is instantaneous followed by what may be considered a somewhat difficult labor into fruition. a true labor of Love carried out by Christ thru Faith in the Holy Spirit. another thing, in The Law, various things makes one "unclean" until evening or for longer periods of time, and the consequences of this uncleanness seems to be that this person cannot enter into the sanctuary or touch any sacred objects. but see, -we- feel that ritual purity thru The Law is, by and large, a shadow, and Christ or Messiah is the reality. that is, ritual purity is a shadow and the reality is God dwelling in the flesh. you know, like, shadows sort of show a flattened out image of the thing itself. and, at very best, this shadow *can* -only- yield a whitewashed tomb. but the reality is God in you. let Jesus circumcise your heart. let the valley of dry bones walk again.

Response:

what’s the matter with baseball? one word;           loyalty player loyalty has been completely removed from the professional game owner loyalty is basically non-existant and slowly but surely, fan loyalty is becoming a thing of a bygone era. not that i care about or watch the game anymore. they killed me a long time ago when the Sentators were just sold to another city. first the owner, whose name will burn in the infernal regions forever, gutted the team, and then sold it off to another city. and now, it’s just a way to sell sneakers. well, you don’t have to sit thru a long boring game for $100 a shot to be sold sneakers. the players aren’t loyal to any particular team or city. that guy from baltimore was probably the last person to play his entire career in one city. probably wouldn’t have played anywhere else anyway. players just hop around to whichever team offers them the best stock options. what would i do? kill off half the teams, cede ownership to the cities themselves thru an agency like a labor union or something, and kill free agency. but that ain’t gunna happen, and the game of professional baseball will soon enough be reckoned to the ash heap of "who gives a rat’s butt about this thing?" once you wrench a thing like loyalty out of something, it’s pretty much impossible to shove it back in. and the concept of loyalty has been removed from professional baseball. and without loyalty, all you have is a very long and boring shoe commercial. it’s called loyalty and it doesn’t exist in a game that thrives on it. how else do you suppose that someone would actually root for the Cubs?

Response:

lymphatic system is like vacuum cleaner. it’s like, the blood forces water and nutrients into the cells, and it forces too much water and stuff in to them, and there is an overflow, and then the lyphatic system vacuums up all the excess, and recycles it. it filters out what is too big and what it can’t use and shoves the rest of the stuff back into the blood stream. ionic strength between osmotic barrier and pore size want to clear out big molecules that may have a short shelf life. as, say, a certain protein or hormone has been attacked and one atom has been altered and it is no longer the appropriate molecule to serve its function and now it may even have a deleterious effect. for instance, some hormones may be attacked by ‘free radicals’ and then they can no longer serve the function they are intended to serve. you would like the lymphatic filters  to yank that out and lyphocytes to chop it up and send it to the kidneys and liver for removal as waste product. so, you’d probably like it of the ionic/partical strength on either side of the lymph/blood barriers to be somewhat identical. you don’t want the lymph apparatus to start shoving large partical thru the barriers because it’s just overloaded with stuff it can not manage. then the blood will be burdened with what may be considered poisons. so, what can you do about it? well, wave your arms around and cluck like a chicken,,,,no, skip the clucking part, unless it makes you happy, but drinking some water is probably also good. because you figure the construction of the osmotic barrier between blood and lymph is governed at a level that is genetic and not wholly subject to excesses of large molecules in the lymphatic system. i’m working on this one. it’s sort of interesting. i think i’d like to tidy it up some.

Response:

Are you sure you’re not still on the moon Timothy?

my physical substance does come from here on earth. i was never on the moon. the seeds that grew me don’t come from here on earth. are we all familiar with the whole routine? Maybe you are just part of the same pumpkin patch,

i wasn’t born from this earth. i was born from somewhere else. some say, "above" but, as i’m sure i made mention; up and down don’t really mean all that much where i come from. running wild all over the galaxy, "cross" polonating the patch.

this whole material universe, is nothing more than a tiny speck inside of the place where i come from which is the "outside" you must be born from the outside. a tiny tiny speck inside of the outside. that’s all the night sky is. the head of a pin. can be folded up in the twinkling of light’s eye. the outside is permanent. the outside is growing in me.

Response:

I like your poetry…. in the twinkling of light’s eye….

Darren

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you sure you’re not still on the moon Timothy? my physical substance does come from here on earth. i was never on the moon. the seeds that grew me don’t come from here on earth. are we all familiar with the whole routine? Maybe you are just part of the same pumpkin patch, i wasn’t born from this earth. i was born from somewhere else. some say, "above" but, as i’m sure i made mention; up and down don’t really mean all that much where i come from. running wild all over the galaxy, "cross" polonating the patch. this whole material universe, is nothing more than a tiny speck inside of the place where i come from which is the "outside" you must be born from the outside. a tiny tiny speck inside of the outside. that’s all the night sky is. the head of a pin. can be folded up in the twinkling of light’s eye. the outside is permanent. the outside is growing in me.

Response:

I like your poetry…. in the twinkling of light’s eye….

apparently, light has an eye must be somewhat figurative i’ll try to find out more thank you for your comment

Response:

dream sleep, capacitive discharge, axons separate while ‘awake’ and firing is lessened, axons relax and draw nearer while ‘asleep’ and firing is more rapid and capacitive discharge is accomplished. primary importance is the capacitive discharge of neural network. of lesser importance in any meaning drawn from random erratic brain function. yes, of course, dear olde God sometimes speaks to people in their dreams. doesn’t mean all dreams are messages from God. aside; it’s claimed that some mental disorders are associated with an improper dream sleep function. some mental disorders are evidenced by erratic and unfocusable thought patterns. almost as if one is always in the erratic firing pattern of dream sleep. as if they are dreaming while ‘awake’ now, it still seems possible to me, that when one is actually ‘awake’ that the nervous network will pull apart from itself and you have a larger gap between axons. asleep ands dreaming;         –| |– awake;         –|       |– adrenaline;         –|                 |– firing is slowed substantially, but electrical activity may even be somewhat heightened. and so, the term ‘burnout’ may be a more correct term than you think. a consistent and persistent buildup of electrical charge without significant capacitive discharge thru dream sleep. the capacitors in your brain are just burned out. other effects may be an increased distance between axons. and the inability for the axons to relax sufficiently during sleep so as to initiate the steady firing of the dream state. and the rest sort of writes itself. it is claimed that adrenaline makes you more focused. yeah, but it’s for a short term and necessary supplement. persistent low levels of adrenaline may broaden gap between axons and disturb capacitive discharge during sleep. and basically, when you see your long lost teddy bear appear in a dream about what you had for dinner last night, it may not necessarily be some relevant message from the Almighty, and may simply be a good night’s sleep. if it makes you happy to have strawberry iced cream with tad pole gizzards, more power to you. but more than likely, it’s just a random access of your memories. you can do that while you’re awake.

Response:

there’s been a moon colony for several thousand years. they have special seeds up there, moon pumpkin seeds. and they send some to earth sometimes. and i was grown from pumpkin seeds. that came from the moon.                                                 were you grown from a pumpkin seed? special pumpkin seeds. that people grow from. only, you need to get like a little pumpkin head hammock. so, the little pumpkin head doesn’t have a flat spot. cuz then it’s not all round and stuff.

Response:

Are you sure you’re not still on the moon Timothy? Maybe you are just part of the same pumpkin patch, running wild all over the galaxy, "cross" polonating the patch. Darren

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – there’s been a moon colony for several thousand years. they have special seeds up there, moon pumpkin seeds. and they send some to earth sometimes. and i was grown from pumpkin seeds. that came from the moon.                                                 were you grown from a pumpkin seed? special pumpkin seeds. that people grow from. only, you need to get like a little pumpkin head hammock. so, the little pumpkin head doesn’t have a flat spot. cuz then it’s not all round and stuff.

Response:

Question:

I am looking for a relatively easy to use (for a non-accountant) accounting software package for a small one-person consulting company. Don’t have inventory; mostly time billing.  Would be good if handle GST any any other things particular to Canada. Have looked in the electronic software stores and have seen MYOB, Simply Accounting and QuickBooks.  Am leaning towards MYOB but for no particular reason. Any recommendations or experiences that anyone would like to share?

Response:

Is SAGE Instant Accounting available?, much better than Quickbooks & more user friendly than TAS Books.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a relatively easy to use (for a non-accountant) accounting software package for a small one-person consulting company. Don’t have inventory; mostly time billing.  Would be good if handle GST any any other things particular to Canada. Have looked in the electronic software stores and have seen MYOB, Simply Accounting and QuickBooks.  Am leaning towards MYOB but for no particular reason. Any recommendations or experiences that anyone would like to share?

Response:

Any of those should be fine, all can account for GST. If you have an accountant, ask his/her opinion.  (If not, why not?) What about family, friends, colleagues, customers – what do they use?  It’s nice to know someone else who uses the same software – especially if they are more experienced than you. My own preference is QuickBooks.  I think it’s the most flexible, most "forgiving", and easiest to use – especially for a non-accountant, but then I  AM  an accountant.  I have a lot of respect for MYOB, but very little actual experience with it. Simply is the market leader in Canada, but I personally like it least. Be aware that each has a couple of different versions at different prices.  Probably the basic version of any of these programs would be sufficient, they’re all approximately the same price (within about $25) and have similar features and capabilities.  However, if you wanted to track your time and charge time and specific expenses to specific clients ("job-costing") you might prefer QuickBooks PRO (about $100 more) to basic QuickBooks, for example; I’m not sure what specific features MYOB and Simply have for time-tracking and job-costing.

I am looking for a relatively easy to use (for a

non-accountant) accounting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – software package for a small one-person consulting company. Don’t have inventory; mostly time billing.  Would be good if handle GST any any other things particular to Canada. Have looked in the electronic software stores and have seen MYOB, Simply Accounting and QuickBooks.  Am leaning towards MYOB but for no particular reason. Any recommendations or experiences that anyone would like to share?

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In documenting facts for a second big national news story, on the QB2000 tax table mess, I saw more QB 2000 bad news. By the way, the reporter said Intuit almost certainly off on the extra tax fees because of a gigantic hue and cry in the Internet discussion group known as biz.comp.accounting. Now will ONLY need one table per copy of QB (not per company using it), with employer identification numbers of all payroll companies. However, QB2000 requires web updates of tables each 45 days FOR EACH  COMPANY PROCESSING PAYROLL. www.intuit.com/quickbooks/products/payroll/bas_qna2.html #4 says, "In addition, we expect to provide by May 31, 2000 a new update of QuickBooks 2000. This update will change the number of times you need to go online to download payroll updates if you prepare payroll for multiple companies. UNTIL THE QUICKBOOKS 2000 UPDATE, YOU NEED TO GO ONLINE EVERY 45 DAYS PER COMPANY FILE.

This in one of the most idiotic software policies I have ever seen. With the update, you only need to go online every 45 days per registered copy of QuickBooks." Also see www.intuit.com/quickbooks/products/payroll/bas_qna.html#10

Mike. I think you may still have to provide them with the EIN of every company that you process payroll for. << mike’s reply:  Right as usual Karl. That’s what I meant by saying, <<"with employer identification numbers of all payroll companies." <<Intuit MAY fix this with a May 31 update. Until then, << http://www.intuit.com/quickbooks/products/payroll/bas_qna2.html << 2b says, "For all other companies for which you prepare payroll << on that copy of QuickBooks 2000, provide us with ONLY THE EIN << FOR EACH COMPANY." << <<We went wild about this  DURING pre-release beta tests. We got <<them to agree to keep providing tables on disk, but missed the <<planned charge for each company using one copy of QB.

Response:

But Mr. Block, am I missing something or what!  Why does Intuit have to pry into the private information of any of my customers. This requirement of needing EIN’s is not right. By backing off the per company fee for the moment, they think they are making us happy. How long will it be before the charges are brought back? mike’s reply: Intuit never had either the right or a need to pry into our private information. They very mistakenly tried to use EINs to stop software piracy of tax tables and make more money. Based on two recent lawsuits they were already gathering even more confidential information on the  www.quicken.com  web site. Intuit never realized how much the extra charges and invasion of privacy would upset key CPAs and Pro Advisors. EINs appear on W2s, so Intuit actually felt they were not "very confidential." Certainly no one there thought of the serious possibility of credit fraud or realized CPAs would need written permission from each client to disclose EINs. They also never expected so many of our biz.comp.accounting readers to quickly notify each other, clients, colleagues, professional groups, news media and regulatory agencies. Intuit probably would not have made these mistakes, which cost it lots of money, if they had an effective professional advisory board or listened to beta testers. They promised one such tester they would make QB tables available on disk, but did not even respond when she sent back her FREE copy of 2000 to protest this broken promise. Intuit has already backed off on about $28 million dollars of per company tax table charges. However, they are stuck with many QB2000 copies needing frequent updates. YOU CAN & SHOULD USE BOGUS EINs. Changing EINs does not disable tax tables. WE WILL WASTE LOTS OF TIME on tax table updates we do not,need between now and an expected May 31 QB update. Intuit will waste lots of time downloading pointless upgrades & dealing with many of us who remain very upset over this. More important, unless they create an effective professional advisory council and spend more time satisfying our need for some long overdue upgrades, they will lose lots of market share. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In documenting facts for a new big news story on the QB2000 tax table mess, I saw more expected QB2000 bad news. Thanks to biz.comp.accounting readers, you do not need QB tables for each company processing payroll. You will ONLY need one table per copy of QB, with the employer identification number of all payroll companies. However, QB2000 web updates tables each 45 days FOR EACH COMPANY PROCESSING PAYROLL. www.intuit.com/quickbooks/products/payroll/bas_qna2.html #4 says, "In addition, we expect to provide by May 31, 2000 a new update of QuickBooks 2000. This update will change the number of times you need to go online to download payroll updates if you prepare payroll for multiple companies. UNTIL THE QUICKBOOKS 2000 UPDATE, YOU NEED TO GO ONLINE EVERY 45 DAYS PER COMPANY FILE. With the update, you only need to go online every 45 days per registered copy of QuickBooks." Also see www.intuit.com/quickbooks/products/payroll/bas_qna.html#10 By the way, the new reporter says Intuit backed off on extra tax fees almost certainly because of a gigantic hue and cry in the Internet discussion group known as biz.comp.accounting.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A. Free Guaranteed Tax Cutting Review  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester 700+ page QB book/free updates $10 QB add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/    Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

Response:

In documenting facts for a new big news story on the QB2000 tax table mess, I saw more expected QB2000 bad news. Thanks to biz.comp.accounting readers, you do not need QB tables for each company processing payroll. You will ONLY need one table per copy of QB, with the employer identification number of all payroll companies. However, QB2000 web updates tables each 45 days FOR EACH COMPANY PROCESSING PAYROLL. www.intuit.com/quickbooks/products/payroll/bas_qna2.html #4 says, "In addition, we expect to provide by May 31, 2000 a new update of QuickBooks 2000. This update will change the number of times you need to go online to download payroll updates if you prepare payroll for multiple companies. UNTIL THE QUICKBOOKS 2000 UPDATE, YOU NEED TO GO ONLINE EVERY 45 DAYS PER COMPANY FILE. With the update, you only need to go online every 45 days per registered copy of QuickBooks." Also see www.intuit.com/quickbooks/products/payroll/bas_qna.html#10 By the way, the new reporter says Intuit backed off on extra tax fees almost certainly because of a gigantic hue and cry in the Internet discussion group known as biz.comp.accounting.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A. Free Guaranteed Tax Cutting Review  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester 700+ page QB book/free updates $10 QB add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/    Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A. Free Guaranteed Tax Cutting Review  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester 700+ page QB book/free updates $10 QB add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/    Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

Response:

Question:

…. If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets … So in what way are they more convenient?

They’re more conveninet for the airline, in that they don’t have to process all that "nasty" paper.  Same reason bankers are in love with the idea of a "cashless society," even if no one else is.

Response:

<<snip If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient? marcos

Convenient for WHOM?  I agree that if you don’t lose a ticket, it doesn’t matter.  You can stay on-line (on the same airline) and it doesn’t matter, either.  The savings goes to the line.  (I have lost 2 tickets, though and not being able to lose one actually helps me feel better – especially when I’m ready to leave for the airport and going

Response:

I think that until e-tickets are electronically transferable from one airline to another, airlines should have a default reaction to print the eticket as soon as a passenger has a problem which cannot be handled electronically (eg: put on another airline’s plane).

Actually, NW has already started electronic transfer of e-tickets when needed (I believe with UA??), since the strike last fall (other airlines offered to transport passengers stranded by the strike).  This was the first electronic transfer in the Airline industry, and there will be more and more such agreements in the near future. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better? That was not the blanket position taken by e-ticket supporters on this group.  In fact, each time this has come up, it is noted that this biggest disadvantage of e-tickets is when there are flight irregularities and it becomes necessary to fly on a carrier other than the one in which you are e-ticketed. You may be confusing yourself with a post about a flight that was cancelled after everyone had already checked in (and boarded, IIRC). Paper ticket holders had to stand in line to retrieve their pulled coupons before they could make alternate flight arrangements, putting them at a disadvantage for availability on other flights, either on the ticketed carrier or another carrier.  In that scenario, e-ticket holders could go directly to a pay phone and call the airlines for an alternate reservation.  Yes, they would then have to have their e-ticket converted to a paper ticket if the new flight was on another carrier, but at least they had a reservation, when someone calling 10 or 15 minutes later may not.

yes, you are correct, the scenario you describe was the one that I was thinking about.  But I don’t understand why paper ticket holders couldn’t go to the same pay phone and make the same reservation as an e-ticket holder?  (Perhaps this was discussed at the time, but I believe the thread became quite long and I stopped reading). marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better?

That was not the blanket position taken by e-ticket supporters on this group.  In fact, each time this has come up, it is noted that this biggest disadvantage of e-tickets is when there are flight irregularities and it becomes necessary to fly on a carrier other than the one in which you are e-ticketed. You may be confusing yourself with a post about a flight that was cancelled after everyone had already checked in (and boarded, IIRC). Paper ticket holders had to stand in line to retrieve their pulled coupons before they could make alternate flight arrangements, putting them at a disadvantage for availability on other flights, either on the ticketed carrier or another carrier.  In that scenario, e-ticket holders could go directly to a pay phone and call the airlines for an alternate reservation.  Yes, they would then have to have their e-ticket converted to a paper ticket if the new flight was on another carrier, but at least they had a reservation, when someone calling 10 or 15 minutes later may not. If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient?

See above response.

Response:

e-tickets have an advantage to the passenger:         you can’t lose them….         you can make changes over the phone…         you can make last minute bookings…

Also …. they can’t get lost in the mail. —                                 William LeFebvre                                 Group sys Consulting                                 +1 770 813 3224

Response:

But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better?

Change to another flight on the same airline: much easier Change to another flight on a different airline: much harder (And which do you think the airline would prefer? That said, you may be able to get your e-ticket converted to a paper ticket at another desk, where if your paper ticket has already been pulled for a flight you’ll have to get it back from *that* desk.  (Admittedly, I haven’t yet had a situation that required trying this.)  That may tip the balance a little toward the e-ticket. — Put location information in your DNS! <URL:http://www.ckdhr.com/dns-loc/

Response:

If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient?

e-tickets are relatively new. Once all airlines are confortable with them, you will start to see the possibility to electronically switch you from one airline to the other. But for the airlines to develop this software, there has to be a business case for it. How much will they save versus printing your ticket ? paper tickets costs the airline megabucks to handle. A blank paper ticket is like a signed blank check. And a used paper ticket must be reconciliated to ensure no fraud was done and to do all the accounting because the ticket has the value, not the computer. But with an e-ticket, the value is in the computer. I think that until e-tickets are electronically transferable from one airline to another, airlines should have a default reaction to print the eticket as soon as a passenger has a problem which cannot be handled electronically (eg: put on another airline’s plane). e-ticklets have an advantage to the passenger:         you can’t lose them. (remember if you lose your paper ticket, you must buy a new one usually at         full price and wait for a refund)         you can make changes over the phone and not have to show up at a ticket office to update the         ticket.         you can make last minute bookings and still meet the ticketing deadline even if airport         or city ticket offices are already closed. (for advance fares).         also, many airlines offer incentives (extra FF points) if you go eticket.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SNIP Change to another flight on the same airline: much easier Change to another flight on a different airline: much harder (And which do you think the airline would prefer? That said, you may be able to get your e-ticket converted to a paper ticket at another desk, where if your paper ticket has already been pulled for a flight you’ll have to get it back from *that* desk.  (Admittedly, I haven’t yet had a situation that required trying this.)  That may tip the balance a little toward the e-ticket.

The fact that you are really hosed if you want to try an alternate airline due to some problem with the ticketed airline is a HUGE problem in my book.   Anybody can get a ticket change for flights within the same airline.  I really don’t like walking around with an e-ticket with flights that the e-ticket doesn’t say.  In any event, won’t the ticket locator number for a paper or an e-ticket say which routing or flights you are really booked on? Rich

Response:

When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with.

But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better? If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient? marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better?

Yet another reason why I hate e-tickets….  I had no problem presenting my paper ticket to the front desk agent down in MBJ last month.  Even though my paper ticket was for a flight which no longer existed, I was reconfirmed in their computer through the alternate flight (seat assignments and all).   I got screwed last xmas during the big ice storm at IAD when I was going to miss my connecting flight out of PHL on US.  I called the Preferred line and got through to a person who had no problem in booking me on a n/s flight through LAX on UA.  Problem is that when I got to the UA gate, I realized I had a e-ticket.  S**T! Rich

Response:

One of the problems with e-tickets is they have to be converted to paper tickets before another airline can accept them.  Whenever there is a problem or potential problem that should be the first thing you do, ask they convert your e-ticket to a paper ticket, it will keep you from having to make a stop at your airlines ticket counter before going to the other airline. I also found out, the hard way, that your own airline may need a copy of the paper ticket to give you miles for the flight they cancelled.  They can not issue you the miles with just the e-ticket, even if you made the reservation through them.  As it was explained to us they need either a paper ticket or a copy of the confirmation from the airline with the ticket number, not the locator number on it. When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve always avoided E-tickets, since based on my personal experiences I lose airline tickets a lot less often than the airlines lose me (I’ve never lost an airline ticket, the airlines have misplaced my reservations several times).  This time I had e-tickets because I booked tickets on Reno Air SFO-SNA-SFO via their www site and it doesn’t have any other options. The outbound flight was no problem (I did have to give them my record locator number, they couldn’t find our tickets based on my last time). The return was more interesting: My wife, daughter, and I were in the gate area waiting for our 6:41 pm SNA-SFO flight.  At 6:15 they announced that because of weather and associated air-traffic delays in SFO our flight was being cancelled and they would put us on their 7:55 pm flight.  But because of the same weather/ATC delays that flight wouldn’t be leaving until 9:00pm at the earliest.  This would put us into SFO around 10:15pm, and by the time we drove home it would have been a very long day for our 2 year old daughter (who had managed not to nap that day because of Disneyland excitement). Checking the computer screens, the other options were: UA SNA-SFO 6:40pm  but was also showing delayed on the screens AK SNA-OAK 7:35pm  but that doesn’t arrive into OAK until 8:49, so by the                    time we get to SFO and home it’s very late. AA SNA-SJC 6:30pm  being in SJC isn’t great, but I know there is a SJC-SFO                    bus and my parents live 15 minutes from SJC so if                    needed we can get a ride to SFO from them. I explained to the gate agent at Reno we’d like to try for the AA flight. She said that she couldn’t help us, they weren’t going to allow people to take non-Reno Air flights.  I explained to her that perhaps she hadn’t heard but American purchased Reno Air and they were all one big happy airline now.  I pointed out that the agent at the ticket counter had even put our Reno Air boarding passes into an American ticket folder. But she said that as far as she knew Reno Air and American were still different airlines.  At the same time I overheard a different gate agent tell a passenger that if he took his ticket to Alaska Airlines they might be willing to take it as-is, so we decided to see if American would take our tickets as is. Luckily SNA is small, so the walk to the American gate wasn’t too long, and yes, they’d be happy to put us on their SJC flight, but it was leaving in 10 minutes and they couldn’t accept Reno Air’s E-ticket.  If we’d had a paper ticket it would be no problem.  They suggested that I might have time to return to the Reno Air gate and have them print paper tickets (American had already finished boarding the plane, but the door was still open).  I ran back to the Reno gate, which now had a long line of people trying to deal with the cancelled flight.  So I ran to the ticket counter, explained my situation to the agent and she proceeded to attempt to convert our e-tickets to paper tickets.  Long story short, she finally did it (some problem about have to de-assign our seats first).  Unfortunately she had no idea how to get our luggage on the American flight, she suggested that it would be offloaded unto baggage carousel 4 and that I should go and get it So now it’s 6:25, I ran back to the gate, gave my wife the tickets, said "I’m going to find our luggage, don’t leave without me".  I ran downstairs to the baggage office.  Talked to a amazingly competent woman named Jennifer, who not only understood what had happened, but also what I needed her to do, and, most surprisingly, why I was in a hurry. Anway, we just made the flight and got home around 10:00pm (our daughter fell asleep in the car and we transferred her to bed without waking her).  Now I’m waiting for our luggage to arrive, but I spoke to Jennifer late last night and she had found it and was sending it to SJC on this mornings flight, so I’m optimistic. marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann Abort, Retry, Fail?                                   |

Response:

I’ve always avoided E-tickets, since based on my personal experiences I lose airline tickets a lot less often than the airlines lose me (I’ve never lost an airline ticket, the airlines have misplaced my reservations several times).  This time I had e-tickets because I booked tickets on Reno Air SFO-SNA-SFO via their www site and it doesn’t have any other options. The outbound flight was no problem (I did have to give them my record locator number, they couldn’t find our tickets based on my last time). The return was more interesting: My wife, daughter, and I were in the gate area waiting for our 6:41 pm SNA-SFO flight.  At 6:15 they announced that because of weather and associated air-traffic delays in SFO our flight was being cancelled and they would put us on their 7:55 pm flight.  But because of the same weather/ATC delays that flight wouldn’t be leaving until 9:00pm at the earliest.  This would put us into SFO around 10:15pm, and by the time we drove home it would have been a very long day for our 2 year old daughter (who had managed not to nap that day because of Disneyland excitement). Checking the computer screens, the other options were: UA SNA-SFO 6:40pm  but was also showing delayed on the screens AK SNA-OAK 7:35pm  but that doesn’t arrive into OAK until 8:49, so by the                    time we get to SFO and home it’s very late. AA SNA-SJC 6:30pm  being in SJC isn’t great, but I know there is a SJC-SFO                    bus and my parents live 15 minutes from SJC so if                    needed we can get a ride to SFO from them. I explained to the gate agent at Reno we’d like to try for the AA flight. She said that she couldn’t help us, they weren’t going to allow people to take non-Reno Air flights.  I explained to her that perhaps she hadn’t heard but American purchased Reno Air and they were all one big happy airline now.  I pointed out that the agent at the ticket counter had even put our Reno Air boarding passes into an American ticket folder. But she said that as far as she knew Reno Air and American were still different airlines.  At the same time I overheard a different gate agent tell a passenger that if he took his ticket to Alaska Airlines they might be willing to take it as-is, so we decided to see if American would take our tickets as is. Luckily SNA is small, so the walk to the American gate wasn’t too long, and yes, they’d be happy to put us on their SJC flight, but it was leaving in 10 minutes and they couldn’t accept Reno Air’s E-ticket.  If we’d had a paper ticket it would be no problem.  They suggested that I might have time to return to the Reno Air gate and have them print paper tickets (American had already finished boarding the plane, but the door was still open).  I ran back to the Reno gate, which now had a long line of people trying to deal with the cancelled flight.  So I ran to the ticket counter, explained my situation to the agent and she proceeded to attempt to convert our e-tickets to paper tickets.  Long story short, she finally did it (some problem about have to de-assign our seats first).  Unfortunately she had no idea how to get our luggage on the American flight, she suggested that it would be offloaded unto baggage carousel 4 and that I should go and get it So now it’s 6:25, I ran back to the gate, gave my wife the tickets, said "I’m going to find our luggage, don’t leave without me".  I ran downstairs to the baggage office.  Talked to a amazingly competent woman named Jennifer, who not only understood what had happened, but also what I needed her to do, and, most surprisingly, why I was in a hurry. Anway, we just made the flight and got home around 10:00pm (our daughter fell asleep in the car and we transferred her to bed without waking her).  Now I’m waiting for our luggage to arrive, but I spoke to Jennifer late last night and she had found it and was sending it to SJC on this mornings flight, so I’m optimistic. marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann

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Question:

My ex tried to do this with me, unsuccessfully.  I know it’s painful to hear and maybe even see these things happening, but there’s really nothing you can do about how she spends the support money.  Somehow it can all be made to look like the money is being spent on the child.  In my case, it paid the rent.  I considered that supporting my children, because without it, we’d probably have ended up in a shelter or something. As far as the college thing goes, I don’t have any idea, but I think you are wise to consider getting something nailed down now.  We had nothing in our decree, so it went by statute.  When the child turned 18 or graduated from high school, the support ended.  I think that’s how it is in most states, unless you make provisions for it in your decree. Depending on the type of bankruptcy she filed, she may or may not be using that income to pay off her debts. Devil’s advocate…. don’t jump to conclusions.  It’ll make you crazy. How old is SS?  Is he old enough to be trusted with money to buy his own clothing?  Just curious. R.

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In article <7jm60u$oq…@nnrp1.deja.com>, Cat Voci <catv…@mail.fwi.com> writes: >We were wondering if we can request to know how the CS checks are being >used?  

You can request anything, but the odds of getting that is pretty slim. >She earns over 60,000 a year, gets 900. a month CS , but sends us >messages that SS doesn’t have any clothes to wear ( of course what we >send is never good enough since they’re not designer! )  All the while >SS tells us about their new computer, new big screen TV, new pedigree >puppy.  She filed for bankruptcy a few years ago and we expect she’s >using CS payments to pay off her debts.  We’re also afraid that when >college comes around, she won’t come up with half.  Can we make sure >that a portion of her CS payments are set aside for college?

Nope, highly doubtful. CS is not *supposed* to be enough to put aside for college. It is *supposed* to cover a percentage of the day-to-day expenses of the child. I would research *very* carefully before I took someone back to court and started asking about CS. It’s pretty possible to end up with a higher CS payment than a lower one. Tracey

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After 4 years or arguing over visitation, my husband has decided it’s time to contact a lawyer to get a more definite schedule set up. Since we’re going to be paying him anyway, we’re trying to address other issues that was left out of the divorce decree  such as college.  We were wondering if we can request to know how the CS checks are being used?  She earns over 60,000 a year, gets 900. a month CS , but sends us messages that SS doesn’t have any clothes to wear ( of course what we send is never good enough since they’re not designer! )  All the while SS tells us about their new computer, new big screen TV, new pedigree puppy.  She filed for bankruptcy a few years ago and we expect she’s using CS payments to pay off her debts.  We’re also afraid that when college comes around, she won’t come up with half.  Can we make sure that a portion of her CS payments are set aside for college? — Cat Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Well, all I can say Cat is that I hope you’re not in NJ. You wouldn’t have a PRAYER of getting any kind of accounting for child support, and it doesn’t seem to matter whether *either* parent will have enough money to send the child to college, only that they’re legally required to do so! I’ve never known anyone who’s been in the situation of just not being able to afford it. Because it’s not like just a regular parent not being able to afford it, there’s a court order that says you have to! Do you go to jail? Can the ex sue you for it? These are the questions that keep me up at night, as I busily tuck college funds away in my childrens’ names instead of mine (and yes, I know that will completely screw us for financial aid) and open bank accounts in trust for them. Because I have nightmares about some lawyer coming here and demanding that I raid their college funds to send SD to college. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cat Voci wrote: > After 4 years or arguing over visitation, my husband has decided it’s > time to contact a lawyer to get a more definite schedule set up. Since > we’re going to be paying him anyway, we’re trying to address other > issues that was left out of the divorce decree  such as college.  We > were wondering if we can request to know how the CS checks are being > used?  She earns over 60,000 a year, gets 900. a month CS , but sends us > messages that SS doesn’t have any clothes to wear ( of course what we > send is never good enough since they’re not designer! )  All the while > SS tells us about their new computer, new big screen TV, new pedigree > puppy.  She filed for bankruptcy a few years ago and we expect she’s > using CS payments to pay off her debts.  We’re also afraid that when > college comes around, she won’t come up with half.  Can we make sure > that a portion of her CS payments are set aside for college? > — > Cat > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

in california, there is no legal process for seeing how the CS money is being spent.  if you can get her to sign something independantly with her and have it notarized and filed with the courts then, you might get somewhere.  we’ve tried to get something already because we have been told that our CS money has gone towards drunk driving school, cigarettes and alcohol for BM’s mom and brother.  we called the lawyer and the d.a.’s office and nothing can be done about it.  BM gets $1100/month and the kids still always show up in dirty, holey clothes and shoes and never have a haircut.  The whole system makes me sick.  Everything is done in favor of the "poor, abandoned woman" and as a woman, I find it a total embarrasment and I’m disguested by it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cat Voci wrote: > After 4 years or arguing over visitation, my husband has decided it’s > time to contact a lawyer to get a more definite schedule set up. Since > we’re going to be paying him anyway, we’re trying to address other > issues that was left out of the divorce decree  such as college.  We > were wondering if we can request to know how the CS checks are being > used?  She earns over 60,000 a year, gets 900. a month CS , but sends us > messages that SS doesn’t have any clothes to wear ( of course what we > send is never good enough since they’re not designer! )  All the while > SS tells us about their new computer, new big screen TV, new pedigree > puppy.  She filed for bankruptcy a few years ago and we expect she’s > using CS payments to pay off her debts.  We’re also afraid that when > college comes around, she won’t come up with half.  Can we make sure > that a portion of her CS payments are set aside for college? > — > Cat > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

If one wanted to implement a financial accounting system for a business that has always used a cash/tax basis accounting system, how would one go about this? Please reply to newsgroup.

Response:

Take a time the account information is in order. Year End.?? Start at the top. Take an inventory of all the assets your company holds. Assets   Cash   Account Receivable – who owes you? have you billed without keeping a true accounting of the outstanding bills?   Prepaid such as insurance, supplies on hand.   Inventory held for sale   Equipment         do not forget accumulated depreciation taken or claimed on      taxes. Decide on future depreciation schemes – write them down.  Other Assets Liabilities   Who do you owe?  Vendors, Employees?, Sales Tax, etc.   Bank Loans Owners Equity.   If ALL assets are true and all liabilities are true. The difference between the two is Owner’s Equity. Now you are ready to start this years business. Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If one wanted to implement a financial accounting system for a business that has always used a cash/tax basis accounting system, how would one go about this? Please reply to newsgroup.

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Well, as simply as possible, since this is a very complex area: You need to identify all the areas that need to be converted to accrual such as Accounts receivable, payables, and accrued expenses.  Generally those are the key areas that need to be setup (but are not all inclusive).  If you have a CPA familiar with your business, he/she will be able to help you setup controls over each of those areas.  A/R and A/P are usually items that your computer system needs to be setup for easier integration with the general ledger. If you can be more specific, about the company or your requirements, I can – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If one wanted to implement a financial accounting system for a business that has always used a cash/tax basis accounting system, how would one go about this? Please reply to newsgroup.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, as simply as possible, since this is a very complex area: You need to identify all the areas that need to be converted to accrual such as Accounts receivable, payables, and accrued expenses.  Generally those are the key areas that need to be setup (but are not all inclusive).  If you have a CPA familiar with your business, he/she will be able to help you setup controls over each of those areas.  A/R and A/P are usually items that your computer system needs to be setup for easier integration with the general ledger. If you can be more specific, about the company or your requirements, I can  If one wanted to implement a financial accounting system for a business that has always used a cash/tax basis accounting system, how would one go   about this? Please reply to newsgroup.

There are also businesses that are only accrual for tax purposes, i.e. just carrying an inventory at year-end. For this you would not have to adjust all the balance sheet accounts.

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Question:

…….is much easier than you think. Cayman is a tax free offshore jurisdiction committed to subjecting its financial services sector to stringent confidentiality laws.  It is the fifth largest financial center in the world. WE CAN OPEN AN OFFSHORE ACCOUNT FOR YOU WHILE MINIMIZING CORRESPONDENCE TO YOUR HOME. We can arrange for mail to be forwarded to our address in the Cayman Islands. We can correspond with you using PGP-encrypted Internet web postings or EMail. Our rates are competitive, and our turnaround times are excellent. http://www.aginternational.com (Visit our client correspondence Internet web post page by clicking on the "pi" symbol located at the very bottom of our page!)

Response:

…….is much easier than you think. Cayman is a tax free offshore jurisdiction committed to subjecting its financial services sector to stringent confidentiality laws.  It is the fifth largest financial center in the world. WE CAN OPEN AN OFFSHORE ACCOUNT FOR YOU WHILE MINIMIZING

** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **

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We are a legitimate business, incorporated in the Cayman Islands.  We consist of several Chartered Accountants who are quite adept at structuring complex tax vehicles for individuals and companies utilizing effective tax planning strategies.  Frankly, I’m a bit surprised by your comments. If you have any specific questions or concerns, rather than defaming my good name, please Email me. John DosSantos, on behalf of AG International Limited …….is much easier than you think. Cayman is a tax free offshore

jurisdiction committed to subjecting its financial services sector to stringent confidentiality laws.  It is the fifth largest financial center in the world. WE CAN OPEN AN OFFSHORE ACCOUNT FOR YOU WHILE MINIMIZING ** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **

Response:

Notice that the posting domain of all the SCAM ALERT crap is none other than the armpit internet provider of the US named prime.net, and from bogus accounts there as well.   PRIME.NET is a censorious internet provider which tries to control content. Prime.net is run by asswipes Jim J. Lippard and Nathan Raciborski, of which see:         http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/lipparj0.html Got to hell Lippard, RAciborski, and prime.net.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  We are a legitimate business, incorporated in the Cayman Islands.  We  consist of several Chartered Accountants who are quite adept at structuring  complex tax vehicles for individuals and companies utilizing effective tax  planning strategies.  Frankly, I’m a bit surprised by your comments.  If you have any specific questions or concerns, rather than defaming my good  name, please Email me.  John DosSantos, on behalf of  AG International Limited   …….is much easier than you think. Cayman is a tax free offshore  jurisdiction committed to subjecting its financial services sector to  stringent confidentiality laws.  It is the fifth largest financial center in  the world. WE CAN OPEN AN OFFSHORE ACCOUNT FOR YOU WHILE MINIMIZING  ** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **

Notice that the posting domain of all the SCAM ALERT stuff is none other than the armpit internet provider of the US named prime.net, and from bogus account there as well.  PRIME.NET is a censorious internet provider which tries to control content.  Got to hell prime.net.  

Response:

Notice that the posting domain of all the SCAM ALERT crap is none other than the armpit internet provider of the US named prime.net, and from bogus accounts there as well.   PRIME.NET is a censorious internet provider which tries to control content. Prime.net [should be primenet.com] is run by asswipes Jim J. Lippard and Nathan Raciborski, of which see:         http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/lipparj0.html Got to hell Lippard, RAciborski, and prime.net [should be primenet.com].   [added later]  The actual domain being used on closer reading is prime.net (not primenet.com described above). However, the same comments apply.  Prime.net is a primenet.com wannabe.  Nics listing for prime.net is: M. Stenzel PRIME7-DOM   9727 NE Sandy Blvd.   Portland, OR 97220   US    Domain Name: PRIME.NET   Administrative Contact:       (510) 724-4421 (FAX) (510) 724 4031   Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Fax- – - – - 707 256-1997   Billing Contact:       (510) 724-4421 (FAX) (510) 724 4031   Record last updated on 19-Jun-97.    Record created on 19-Jun-97.    Database last updated on 12-Dec-97 05:57:16 EDT.    Domain servers in listed order:   NSB.NTX.NET                        209.24.1.216    NSX.NTX.NET                  206.79.254.150 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  We are a legitimate business, incorporated in the Cayman Islands.  We  consist of several Chartered Accountants who are quite adept at structuring  complex tax vehicles for individuals and companies utilizing effective tax  planning strategies.  Frankly, I’m a bit surprised by your comments.  If you have any specific questions or concerns, rather than defaming my good  name, please Email me.  John DosSantos, on behalf of  AG International Limited   …….is much easier than you think. Cayman is a tax free offshore  jurisdiction committed to subjecting its financial services sector to  stringent confidentiality laws.  It is the fifth largest financial center in  the world. WE CAN OPEN AN OFFSHORE ACCOUNT FOR YOU WHILE MINIMIZING  ** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **** SCAM ALERT **

Notice that the posting domain of all the SCAM ALERT stuff is none other than the armpit internet provider of the US named prime.net, and from bogus accounts there as well.  PRIME.NET is a censorious internet provider which tries to control content.  Got to hell prime.net.   [added later]  Copycat SCAM alert stuff is coming from bogus accounts at erols.com and posting host cyberstar-141.vabch.com. Here are the internic’s listings for those two shops: Erol’s Internet Service EROLS-DOM    7921 Woodruff Court    Springfield, VA 22151    US    Domain Name: EROLS.COM    Administrative Contact:       tel.: 703-321-8000  fax.: 703-321-8316  http://www.erols.com    Technical Contact, Zone Contact:       tel.: 703-321-8000  fax.: 703-321-8316  http://www.erols.com    Record last updated on 01-Aug-97.    Record created on 30-Apr-95.    Database last updated on 12-Dec-97 05:57:16 EDT.    Domain servers in listed order:    DOMAIN01.DNS.EROLS.NET       207.172.3.20    DOMAIN02.DNS.EROLS.NET       207.172.3.21    OFFSITE01.DNS.EROLS.NET      206.138.112.20 and Cyberstar Technologies VABCH-DOM    P.O. Box 64141    Virginia Beach, VA 23467    US    Domain Name: VABCH.COM    Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:       757-420-2356    Billing Contact:       757-420-2356    Record last updated on 16-Jul-97.    Record created on 27-Oct-95.    Database last updated on 12-Dec-97 05:57:16 EDT.    Domain servers in listed order:    NS1.VABCH.COM                209.96.152.11    NS1.VISI.NET                 206.246.194.7    NS1.EXIS.NET                 205.252.72.102

Response:

Question:

American Power Conversion’s Smart-UPS series output "Pure sine wave output at 115 Vac +/-5%, -10% after low battery warning, synchronized to utility line", according to their literature.   Based on this thread, I’m sending out one of the 1400KVA models to my brother, who has been diagnosed with sleep apnea.  I am buying him a cpap machine based on the following information he received from the sleep clinic.  Since I know very little about this, I’d really appreciate any information or feedback on models, accessories, etc. Here’s the info he sent me, cut ‘n’ pasted: 1. CPAP AT 8 CM WATER PRESSURE 2.UNIT TYPE:  RESPIRONICS OR SULLIVAN 3.RAMP TIME: 5-10 MINUTES 5.HEADGEAR: SMALL WIDE  PURITAN BENNETT 6.HEATED HUMIDIFIER OR OASIS HUMIDIFICATION – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MartinLee1 wrote: > Hi John, > Thank you for the explaination on the difference between the trapezoidal and > the sine waves.

Response:

Hello group, Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A 1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. I think this means it produce good AC power. My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a cooling fan. I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. Different UPS are designed for different applications. I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also found these tests interesting too. ~Martin~ p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? Thanks, ~Martin~

Response:

MartinLee1 wrote: > Hi John, > Thank you for the explaination on the difference between the trapezoidal and > the sine waves. I did not know the difference — but now you mentioned it, I > think I saw something like that in the vendor’s documentation when I was > searching the site. The difference in the wave pattern, is it from the battery > or from the AC  inverter? If we use a car or deep cycle battery and an AC > inverter, do we also need to check for the wave pattern so not to damage our > machines? > By the way, I am leaning so much in this discussion thread. Thank you all !!! > ~Martin~

Hi Martin – Sorry it took a while for me to reply.  Your deep cycle battery + inverter  would probably work ok, as long as the inverter’s output was fairly smooth and the current rating was sufficient for the CPAP.   The type of battery  has nothing to do with the ultimate shape of the AC wave. As long as the battery has sufficient capacity, then the output wave is a function of the type and quality of the inverter, and the better ones generally cost more.  Many cheap inverters are only good for powering light bulbs and shavers,  these produce little more than square waves.  You could use an oscilloscope to see how "noisy" your inverter output is (have the CPAP attached while doing this), but most people don’t have access to test equipment like this.  It might be easier to provide your CPAP manufacturer with the  AC harmonic distortion specs from your inverter documentation, and they might be able to tell you right away if their unit is compatible. I apologize if I’m not being more specific with regard to inverters setups, since there are so many variables (harmonic distortion tolerance of the CPAP, inverter type/quality, "kluginess" of the particular setup, wiring/safety  issues, etc.) . Since we are ultimately talking about hooking this up to medical equipment, I would always check with the CPAP manufacturer to get their input  (no pun intended).  Hope this helps. Good luck! – John

Response:

In article <35ea4a86.2311…@news.iaw.on.ca>, "Jabba T. Hutt" <ja…@iaw.on.ca> writes >         From what I have seen these 12v to 120 volt inverters  is >that most of them do not use a perfect sin wave in them, t hat is why >alit of them cannot be used for running a computer as most computers >use a switching type supply and the lack of a good sine wave messes >them up.

[...] As I understand the operation of a switched mode power supply, the AC is rectified to DC, which is then filtered (smothed) by a high value capacitor before going on to the next stage. Therefore the quality of the AC waveform going into the switched mode power supply would make no difference, you could even run a switched mode power supply from a DC input! There is even a device available that converts 12V DC to 330V DC just for this purpose – see stock No. 243-1686 on http://rswww.com Regards Paul —      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@:

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Martin, Look for the Phantom sleep page. There is an extensive discussion of CPAP and UPS there. One very important piece of info was battery type. Those who have made it work use what is called ‘deep cycle marine’ batteries. regards, eric pearson er…@nospammindspring.com On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. >Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short >hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran >shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option >for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit >handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is >charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the >battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This >was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus >accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a >cooling fan. >I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit >with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status >monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets >spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. >I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The >cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP >unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my >whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   >My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is >not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. >Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when >compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. >Different UPS are designed for different applications. >I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also >found these tests interesting too. >~Martin~ >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? >Thanks, >~Martin~

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On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in?

I would suspect that there would be combinations that work together and combinations that don’t work together. Here’s one manufacturers’ answer to the question. ResMed uses a switchmode power supply that runs on a wide range of voltages. (The US version has a cord hard wired in but the foreign ones have a switchable cord. However, the USA models retain the 100-240 V, 50-60 Hz power supply.) To quote from the manual, written in that vaguely English language known as British-Australian: "Your SULLIVAN V can operate from a battery supply (e. g. in a truck or recreational vehicle), with the use of a suitable inverter unit. The inverter should be capable of supplying mains voltage in the range 110-240 V and should be of sufficient capacity. NOTE: A rated capacity of up to 200 W may be necessary with some brands of inverter to ensure satisfactory operation." I suspect your mileage may vary with other brands. (I know some of them sell inverters. ResMed does have a model but there aren’t any warnings in the manual saying that one has to use that particular inverter.) –C. PS: I just got titrated last night (YES, a Saturday night — the sleep lab people LOVE keeping their beds full) and I’m now learning the controls of a ResMed SULLIVAN 5. (On, off, and three choices of ramp; 16 years of education and 21 years of experience in electrical and software engineering should suffice to understand its operating controls.) I’m happy to report that I slept six hours straight, woke up for a restroom break, and then two more. (The lab techs were nice and let me sleep–it was almost lunch time before I got home. On the other hand, the tech that did my initial study was SMART and kicked me out at 6 AM so I could beat the rush hour back home!) I don’t think I have done that in three to four years. It’s a bit strange but I think I’ll adjust to it. (Just don’t try to talk. All sorts of weird things seem to happen.) –C.

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Hi Peter, I do differ with you on your comment about computer UPS not certified for motorized equipment. My file servers are stuffed with lots on motors inside. From cooling fans in each of the multiple power supplies, multiple cooling fans in the chassie, A fan on top of each CPU chips, each disk drive in the disk array (14 disks total) have two motors ( one drive motor and another for the servo read/write heads, motor in the floppy, CD ROM, tape backup drives … I think my computer UPS supplies more power to drive those motors than the actual electronics inside the computer. Anyway, this is not the point of this discussion. I did find your pointer to (http://www.newtechpub.com/phantom/psnews/) very interesting. Jerry Halberstadt discusses ‘Battery Operation of CPAP Devices …’ is excellent. Thanks for the pointer to these articles. I will have to read them a couple of times to make sure I didn’t miss anything. Thanks, ~Martin~

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Hi group, Here is my second UPS test with my CPAP unit. One of my tech has a small APC BACK-Ups Office unit.  The capacity on this unit is 250VA, 150W. I think it is around the $100 range. According to APC’s booklet, that UPS will run a Pentium desktop with 15" monitor for 7 minutes. My CPAP unit (REMstar @ 10cm H20) ran for 1 hour and 15 minutes. It beeped every 5 minutes or so and there wasn’t a silence button. This test showed me my CPAP unit do not draw that much power. I was surprised when it ran over a hour. Just wondering if you live in a power fail prone area and can document the failures, can we purchase the UPS and deduct it as required medical expense just like the xPAP unit? Any tax consultant or IRS out there? I hope to be able to test 1000VA unit this weekend for the group. ~Martin~

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In article <1998082205595000.BAA22…@ladder01.news.aol.com> MartinLee1, martinl…@aol.com writes: >My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The >specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said >it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power >consumption please us to interpret these numbers.

I think someone else already calculated that out to be 96 watts. But I also have a REMstar and did some tests for 12 volt operation prior to some camping earlier in the summer. My unit is running at 13 cm H2O and on the 12 volt port it took just about 2 amps at 13 volts. That’s only 26 watts. So I suspect that 800 ma AC current is peak startup current or some such. I can’t imagine the power supply is so inefficient as to draw 96 watts to make 26 watts of DC for the internal electronics. That’d be about 30 percent efficient, pretty dismal. I ran mine overnights on a 24 amp-hour 12 volt battery, smallish tractor sized. I only ran single nights and never ran it till it quit so I don’t know how long it really would have run. Calculations predict 12 hours, more than enough for the single night use I needed. For the remstar, and other units which run on 12 volts, a much cheaper solution than a UPS would probably be to buy a decent deep cycle battery, say a group 24 or 27 cell size. I think that runs 105 amp-hours in the group 27 size, for about $60. Then find an automatic charger that delivers at least 2 amps, and which automatically goes into float mode. I found a 1.5 amp hour unit at Walmart for $24. I’m sure you can find a 2 amp or larger unit for twice that or so. Call it $200 for the whole shooting match. A 105 amp hour battery should run my CPAP for about 50 hours, or 6 eight hour nights. With the charger running, the battery will just float, with all the load supplied by the charger. So I can run the system and not worry about backup. If the AC is on, the charger runs the CPAP and keeps the battery at top charge. If the AC goes off, the CPAP starts running on the battery, and will do that for 48 hours or so continous. I only know of two power outages in this state in that last 20 years that lasted longer than a week (ice storms both). The 12 volt solution would only run cpaps and other appliances that run at that voltage, but for $50 you can buy a 300 watt inverter to make 115 vac as necessary for devices that can’t run at 12 volts. Hope that’s useful . Kevin

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          From what I have seen these 12v to 120 volt inverters  is that most of them do not use a perfect sin wave in them, t hat is why alit of them cannot be used for running a computer as most computers use a switching type supply and the lack of a good sine wave messes them up.         If you have that many power failures and a UPS is out of the question and your machine will run 12v get yourself the biggest gellcell 12v battery you can afford,  a 12v charger that will go into a trickle charge to keep that battery topped up and at least a 5 to 7 amp 120v to 12v power supply, the type used to power mobile ham radio or cb radios.         You can have the charger wired to charge the battery at all times and the power supply wire thru a relay to the CPAP to power it at all times and when the hydro quits the power supply quits and the relay drops out and switches over to the battery.         My opinion on UPS’s is to not buy the cheapest one there is but get a couple models up from there and make sure it has a good sine wave output and it should be ok.  You don’t need a unit most of the time that will power your CPAP for 8 hours,  it just has to be enough to get you past the power outage which most times does not last more than a couple hours, if you go to bed and sleep 4 hours and the power goes out and the UPS runs it for another 3 hours you now have 3 hours more decent sleep that without it but it is still enough to get you thru the day.         Just my 2 cents worth. Len On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. >Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short >hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran >shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option >for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit >handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is >charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the >battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This >was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus >accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a >cooling fan. >I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit >with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status >monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets >spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. >I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The >cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP >unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my >whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   >My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is >not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. >Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when >compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. >Different UPS are designed for different applications. >I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also >found these tests interesting too. >~Martin~ >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? >Thanks, >~Martin~

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On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: >Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours.

Does it really matter?  Seems to me the 650W unit is plenty enough. Why should you need more than 6.5 hours? Rationale is this, if the power goes off during the night you have already received "x" number of hours sleep.  Even if that were but 1.5 how often do you regularly sleep beyond 8 full hours?  How much beyond the 8? If the power went off well before bedtime you’re likely better off making a quick visit to the nearby hotel, friend or relatives house. By the time you reach 1000VA capable UPS, the price differential suggests to me a better option would be purchase of a lightweight portable generator.  Stick it outside with the extension cord through the window.  Besides if the power was out all day you could also use it during the daytime for the refrigerator then swap to the CPAP at night. *************************************** delete "nospam" for e-mail reply ***************************************

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It could have been a dream on or about 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT when martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) stunned my sensibilities with: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. >Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short >hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran >shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option >for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit >handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is >charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the >battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This >was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus >accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a >cooling fan. >I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit >with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status >monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets >spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. >I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The >cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP >unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my >whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   >My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is >not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. >Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when >compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. >Different UPS are designed for different applications. >I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also >found these tests interesting too. >~Martin~ >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? >Thanks, >~Martin~

Sounds like some good information, Martin. This makes me wish that we had a comprehensive UPS/alternative power source FAQ for this group.  The technical prowess is definitely present here. Thanks, D

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Hi John, Thank you for the explaination on the difference between the trapezoidal and the sine waves. I did not know the difference — but now you mentioned it, I think I saw something like that in the vendor’s documentation when I was searching the site. The difference in the wave pattern, is it from the battery or from the AC  inverter? If we use a car or deep cycle battery and an AC inverter, do we also need to check for the wave pattern so not to damage our machines? By the way, I am leaning so much in this discussion thread. Thank you all !!! ~Martin~

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MartinLee1 wrote: > Hi Peter, > I do differ with you on your comment about computer UPS not certified for > motorized equipment. My file servers are stuffed with lots on motors inside. > From cooling fans in each of the multiple power supplies, multiple cooling fans > in the chassie, A fan on top of each CPU chips, each disk drive in the disk > array (14 disks total) have two motors ( one drive motor and another for the > servo read/write heads, motor in the floppy, CD ROM, tape backup drives … I > think my computer UPS supplies more power to drive those motors than the actual > electronics inside the computer. Anyway, this is not the point of this > discussion. > I did find your pointer to (http://www.newtechpub.com/phantom/psnews/) very > interesting. Jerry Halberstadt discusses ‘Battery Operation of CPAP Devices > …’ is excellent. Thanks for the pointer to these articles. I will have to > read them a couple of times to make sure I didn’t miss anything. > Thanks, > ~Martin~

Hi Martin – Peter is correct about not using "computer" type UPS’s for motor loads. Most  UPS’s sold to consumers for their PC’s  generate a trapezoidal wave or an approximated sine wave from the battery, not a smooth, true AC sine wave.  The PC’s internal AC power supply can handle this easily, and just converts this approximated AC sine wave into DC power for all the fans, motors, and disk drives. The problem occurs when people try and connect other kinds of non-computer devices to this type of UPS.  Though not always immediately apparent,  motors and certain AC circuits can eventually be damaged by this approximated sine wave, especially if run for continuous periods.  At the very least,  it might void the warranty if the attached device failed.  The safest thing would probably be to buy a UPS that produced "true" sine waves (like the APC Smart-UPS Series), but unfortunately these start at around $450. Anyway, even though it’s not the ideal setup,  I suppose it  beats having no backup power for the CPAP in a blackout, and most UPS’s use gel batteries that are relatively safe.  The other good thing is that the CPAP would only be running off the UPS when a blackout occurred, hopefully not too often.  In any case, I would still check with the manufacturer of the CPAP. – John

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F. Feeney wrote: > snipped < > For the remstar, and other units which run on 12 volts, a much cheaper > solution than a UPS would probably be to buy a decent deep cycle battery, > say a group 24 or 27 cell size. I think that runs 105 amp-hours in the > group 27 size, for about $60. Then find an automatic charger that > delivers at least 2 amps, and which automatically goes into float mode. I > found a 1.5 amp hour unit at Walmart for $24. I’m sure you can find a 2 > amp or larger unit for twice that or so. Call it $200 for the whole > shooting match. > snipped < > Kevin

I agree that I wouldn’t buy a UPS just for my CPAP, but I already have one for my home computer.  If there’s a power outage at night I’ll just go downstairs and grab the UPS and carry it to my bedroom. The point is that if you plan to buy a UPS anyway, consider sizing it for both your computer and your xPAP.  Since I have quite a computer setup I bought a Tripp Lite 650W UPS that keeps my stuff running for about 10 minutes.  With more thought I would have bought the 1000W UPS. — BigAl db-g…@bigfoot.com

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I agree with the group’s comment about computer UPS unit isn’t exactly cheap. I’ll see if I can find the smallest UPS in my area and do the same test. I think one of my Tech have a little $50 or $75 unit which he use keep a couple of modems alive while that particular circuit switch over to emergency power. Charles, Is your calculation of 92 watts means my unit will use 92 watts per hour? Then do I divide 92 into the 630 watts, which give me about 6.8 hrs. Then taking the UPS inefficiency and housekeeping … then the 6.5 hrs run time seems to make sense? This why I decided to plug in my unit and watch the clock. Thanks, ~Martin~

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APC has outstanding technical data.  I don’t know if they have presales tech support.  However, if they do I’m pretty sure that they could provide any information requested. Since I work in computer mail order I thought I might mention that you can usually get a deal without lying.  Many reps will deal with you if you just ask.  It is more likely if you are placing a large order, or ordering late at night or at the end of the month.  However, most reps have a pretty good idea that their competitors prices aren’t too much different than their own and often the price is verified.  Perhaps not all sales people function like it but most are real people and don’t appreciate being lied to. Of course, since you mentioned those "other guys" I can’t leave out the URL for the company that makes my CPAP possible:  Mac/PC Zones at http://www.zones.com Tony BigAl <db-g…@bigfoot.com> wrote in article <35DEEA38.4…@bigfoot.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Those are list prices, if you intend to buy one, try one of the online > sources such as Computer Discount Warehouse at http://www.cdw.com  They > also sometimes give even lower prices if you call them and ask.  SAy you > got a better price elsewhere such as PCMall. > BigAl > db-g…@bigfoot.com

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Please note that MOST UPSs for computer equipment are NOT certified for motorized equipment (your xPAP).  Check carefully because some can have catastrophic failures under such use (ie: battery explodes). The Phantom Sleep has an excelent write-up on back ups for xPAPs. See:  http://www.newtechpub.com/phantom/ Peter

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On 22 Aug 1998 05:59:48 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: >My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The >specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said >it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power >consumption please us to interpret these numbers.

        800 ma = 800 milliamperes = 0.8 amperes         0.8 amperes * 115 VAC (volts AC) = 92 watts Typically, devices with motors (like CPAPs) will ONLY draw their peak power drain with they’re starting up. It might be useful to compare how long the same UPS will run a 100-watt light bulb. The battery will charge up to hold a certain number of watthours of power. However, the amount the CPAP will get to use won’t be linear with different loadings, because the battery power dissipates in three different paths:         Power out of battery = Power to CPAP                         + UPS inefficiency (load dependent)                         + UPS minimum power to run ("housekeeping") Because the UPS has a minimum power use for its control circuitry, a UPS won’t run a 100-watt bulb twice as long as it runs two 100-watt bulbs. Hope this doesn’t muddy the WAT[T]ERS too much… –C.

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Those are list prices, if you intend to buy one, try one of the online sources such as Computer Discount Warehouse at http://www.cdw.com  They also sometimes give even lower prices if you call them and ask.  SAy you got a better price elsewhere such as PCMall. BigAl db-g…@bigfoot.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Paul Kemp wrote: > Hi Martin, > Very interesting, there is nothing to beat a practical test. I will be > waiting with interest for the results of your subseqent tests. > One point worth mentioning here (I hope you will agree). You are using > professional quality UPS units with high capacities, don’t think that > you can go to the computer store and buy a $100 UPS and expect it to run > your CPAP for more than half an hour. > However: > I went to the APC web page and found they have a section called "Runtime > & Sizing". > Here you can put in your power and runtime requirements, and a list of > UPS’s meeting your requirements will be displayed. > If you go to: > http://www.apcc.com/english/prods/works/backs/index.htm > And click on the "Runtime & Sizing" link at the left of the page you > will get to it. > In this section leave everything at its default value except; change the > monitor type to "None", change the Power Margin to 0%, and the desired > run time to 8 hours. This will give you a power consumption of 50W > (typical for CPAP alone). > This came up with a UPS that would apparently run for 842 minutes (14 > hours). > But remember it is 8.5 x 6.7 x 17.3 inches, weighs 60lb, and costs $600 > + $258 for a battery! > If you have got the money it would seem like quite a good solution for > folks with power supply interruption problems. > snipped <

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In article <1998082205595000.BAA22…@ladder01.news.aol.com>, MartinLee1 <martinl…@aol.com> writes Hi Martin, Very interesting, there is nothing to beat a practical test. I will be waiting with interest for the results of your subseqent tests. One point worth mentioning here (I hope you will agree). You are using professional quality UPS units with high capacities, don’t think that you can go to the computer store and buy a $100 UPS and expect it to run your CPAP for more than half an hour. However: I went to the APC web page and found they have a section called "Runtime & Sizing". Here you can put in your power and runtime requirements, and a list of UPS’s meeting your requirements will be displayed. If you go to: http://www.apcc.com/english/prods/works/backs/index.htm And click on the "Runtime & Sizing" link at the left of the page you will get to it. In this section leave everything at its default value except; change the monitor type to "None", change the Power Margin to 0%, and the desired run time to 8 hours. This will give you a power consumption of 50W (typical for CPAP alone). This came up with a UPS that would apparently run for 842 minutes (14 hours). But remember it is 8.5 x 6.7 x 17.3 inches, weighs 60lb, and costs $600 + $258 for a battery! If you have got the money it would seem like quite a good solution for folks with power supply interruption problems. Regards Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello Group, >Seems like a number of us are discussing attaching our CPAP unit to UPS >(Uninterruptible Power Supply). I decided to an experiment to see how long my >CPAP unit will run on a UPS that was design for a computer server. >Just for reference, my CPAP unit is a Respironics REMstar set at 10cm H2O. I >manage computer operations for the company I work for and have access to a >number of difference size UPS units. I will try to run multiple UPS tests with >my CPAP unit. >Basically I plug in my CPAP unit to the fully charged UPS and time it to see >when my CPAP unit will stop running. When the batteries are drained low enough, >most UPS will shut itself off to prevent damage to the batteries and circuitry. >Most UPS will have an audible alarm when the power is gone. My units have a >switch to silence the beeps after the initial alarm. I can’t see anyone >sleeping through the beeps once every 5 seconds or so if they don’t silence it. >So people who wants to be waken up by a alarm (not by choking) when the power >goes out, may see advantage in getting an UPS unit. >My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The >specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said >it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power >consumption please us to interpret these numbers. >My CPAP unit ran for 6.5 hours on this APC Back-UPS 900. The last 10 minutes >the alarm came back on solid and could not be silenced. A good feature to let >us know it is about to shut itself down. >I am not sure about the current price of this unit. This is an older unit and >it is not listed in the APC catalog any more. Looking at other UPS with the >similar capacity, I believe it is between the $350 to $400 range. Not exactly >pocket change in my book. >My next test will be a 1000W UPS unit, and then a smaller 400W UPS unit. Since >my computer servers are running 24 hrs by 7 days, I will have to arrange for >down time to make them available for my tests. >Your xPAP unit may run longer or shorter than mine unit depending on the power >it draws. I hope at least using my unit as an example, this will give the group >some idea on CPAP run time on computer UPS units. >So on a 900W UPS unit, my CPAP ran for 6.5 hours. More to follow later. >Regards, >~ Martin Lee ~

– Paul Kemp       E Mail:         p…@kemp.demon.co.uk                 Home Page:      http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/                 ICQ Pager:      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266

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Hello Group, Seems like a number of us are discussing attaching our CPAP unit to UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply). I decided to an experiment to see how long my CPAP unit will run on a UPS that was design for a computer server. Just for reference, my CPAP unit is a Respironics REMstar set at 10cm H2O. I manage computer operations for the company I work for and have access to a number of difference size UPS units. I will try to run multiple UPS tests with my CPAP unit. Basically I plug in my CPAP unit to the fully charged UPS and time it to see when my CPAP unit will stop running. When the batteries are drained low enough, most UPS will shut itself off to prevent damage to the batteries and circuitry. Most UPS will have an audible alarm when the power is gone. My units have a switch to silence the beeps after the initial alarm. I can’t see anyone sleeping through the beeps once every 5 seconds or so if they don’t silence it. So people who wants to be waken up by a alarm (not by choking) when the power goes out, may see advantage in getting an UPS unit. My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power consumption please us to interpret these numbers. My CPAP unit ran for 6.5 hours on this APC Back-UPS 900. The last 10 minutes the alarm came back on solid and could not be silenced. A good feature to let us know it is about to shut itself down. I am not sure about the current price of this unit. This is an older unit and it is not listed in the APC catalog any more. Looking at other UPS with the similar capacity, I believe it is between the $350 to $400 range. Not exactly pocket change in my book. My next test will be a 1000W UPS unit, and then a smaller 400W UPS unit. Since my computer servers are running 24 hrs by 7 days, I will have to arrange for down time to make them available for my tests. Your xPAP unit may run longer or shorter than mine unit depending on the power it draws. I hope at least using my unit as an example, this will give the group some idea on CPAP run time on computer UPS units. So on a 900W UPS unit, my CPAP ran for 6.5 hours. More to follow later. Regards, ~ Martin Lee ~

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————18E76EF77C22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI: I attached my CPAP to a APC 650 UPS, and turned it to full  blast… The runtime was 1 hr and 12 minutes…  Enough for a small blackup!! Remember, this was a full blast!!! Hope this helps you all….. jim ————18E76EF77C22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <HTML><BODY> <DT>FYI:&nbsp;</DT> <DT>&nbsp;</DT> <DT>I attached my CPAP to a APC 650 UPS, and turned it to full&nbsp; blast… The runtime was 1 hr and 12 minutes…&nbsp; Enough for a small blackup!!&nbsp; Remember, this was a full blast!!!</DT> <DT>&nbsp;</DT> <DT>Hope this helps you all…..</DT> <DT>jim</DT> </BODY> </HTML> ————18E76EF77C22–

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James Lorance <jas…@inlink.com> writes: >I attached my CPAP to a APC 650 UPS, and turned it to full  blast… The >runtime was 1 hr and 12 minutes…  Enough for a small blackup!! >Remember, this was a full blast!!!>Hope this helps you all….. >jim

Good experimient, Jim. Could you attach a 50 or 90AH deep cycle battery to this unit, then you could get a full night’s sleep? For a detailed review of the technical options for an electrical backup system for the CPAP, see the Phantom Sleep Page. — Jerry Halberstadt. *President, New Technology Publishing, Inc: Health & Business Resources *Principal, FORESIGHT: Visionary business plans. * PHANTOM SLEEP PAGE <http://www.newtechpub.com/> *<halbe…@world.std.com> * 6 W.Blvd. POB 1737, Onset MA 02558 USA.

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