There’s no accounting for tastes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just found this … KASSEL, Germany : A self-confessed cannibal went on trial in Germany, accused of murdering a man who was apparently a willing accomplice in his videotaped death, dissection and consumption. In chilling, matter-of-fact detail, Armin Meiwes told the hushed court how his obsession with cannibalism developed as a child and eventually led him to kill and eat a fellow human being. The suspect and victim met in early 2001, after Armin M is said to have posted a personal ad on several websites and in chatrooms asking for "young, well-built men aged 18 to 30 to slaughter", the German daily newspaper Bild reported at the time of his arrest. The advertisement read in part "Are you max 30 years old, with a normal body, then you are just right for me. I want to slaughter you and consume your delicious flesh." Sex on the Internet is well known. But cannibalism? It’s out there too. One particular web forum has an explicit board containing messages such as from Diana, looking for "an experienced butcher" for "conventional slaughter" at her home. A man offers to get rid of women aged up to 40 who have become "useless and a burden." Other visitors offer to sacrifice a foot, a hand or an ear. German criminologist Rudolf Egg (!) said it reflected on society as a whole. "People should ask themselves what they like about it, why they do it and what that actually reveals of their personality and their sexual frustrations in society." The victim in this particular case was a 43-year-old Berlin computer technician who had sold his car, written a will and taken the day off work to sort out what he called a "personal" matter. He then went to Armin M’s home, where the pair reportedly agreed to cut off his penis. Police declined comment on reports that they first flambeed the organ in spirits, then, after tasting it, decided to fry it. The macabre case is unprecedented in German legal history and has gripped the country in horrified fascination. Meiwes, a 42-year-old computer technician who says he regrets what he did, admits the killing but insists it was not murder as he was only doing what he had been asked. Testifying Wednesday on the opening day of his trial for murder, he said his fantasy first developed between the ages of eight and 12. He would imagine killing, carving up and eating schoolfriends whom he liked. Meiwes, dressed smartly in a dark jacket and tie, said he felt lonely as a child and longed for a younger brother, his father having abandoned the family. His longing for a brother led him to imagining binding a friend to him for ever by consuming him. It also aroused him sexually, he admitted. "Slim and blond, that would have been the type," he told the court. Meiwes said horror films and watching animals being slaughtered heightened his imagination. "I had the fantasy, and in the end I fulfilled it." Television pictures earlier showed him laughing and chatting easily to his lawyer moments before the trial opened in Kassel, central Germany. The case is legally complex as cannibalism is not a crime in Germany. Legal experts have doubted whether prosecutors will be able to sustain the charge of murder for the purposes of sexual satisfaction. Nevertheless, prosecutors argue that even though the victim, Bernd Juergen Brandes, had an apparent death wish, Meiwes is still guilty of murder because he was always intent on killing him. If convicted, he would be liable for life in prison. He is also accused of "disturbing the peace of the dead" for carving up the body. Defence lawyers argue that, at worst, he is guilty of "killing on demand," which would be punishable by up to five years in prison. It was unclear whether the videos taken during the incident in March 2001 would be shown in public or behind closed doors. Investigators who have scanned them have spoken of scenes like "in a horror film." Meiwes, who has admitted his actions to investigators and in interviews in newspapers, has said he made contact with Brandes, a 43-year-old Berlin engineer, on the Internet after advertising for someone willing to be killed and eaten. Brandes travelled to his house in Rotenburg, near Kassel, where Meiwes cut off his penis, which they partially ate together. Then Meiwes stabbed him, carved up the body, ate some of the flesh, stored some more in a deep-freeze for later consumption and buried bones and the skull in his garden. The whole scenario was recorded on video, again with the apparent agreement of Brandes. In an interview released Tuesday, Meiwes said it was not a case of murder because Brandes "used me as a tool" to help him die. "My friend enjoyed dying, death. I only waited horrified for the end after doing the deed. It took so terribly long," he said. The case did not emerge until an Austrian student spotted another advertisement placed by Meiwes on the Internet and alerted police. Officers who studied the 16 computers, 221 hard drives, 95 CD-Roms, nearly 1,800 diskettes and 307 videos found at his home tapped into a hitherto hidden cannibal scene. Apparently the victim lied about his age so he could participate! Obviously the cannibal swallowed his story. berko
– If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other. Carl Schurz (1829-1906)
There’s no accounting for tastes. He then went to Armin M’s home, where the pair reportedly agreed to cut off his penis. Police declined comment on reports that they first flambeed the organ in spirits, then, after tasting it, decided to fry it.
Apparently one man’s meat is another’s penis. berko
I just found this … KASSEL, Germany : A self-confessed cannibal went on trial in Germany, accused of murdering a man who was apparently a willing accomplice in his videotaped death, dissection and consumption. In chilling, matter-of-fact detail, Armin Meiwes told the hushed court how his obsession with cannibalism developed as a child and eventually led him to kill and eat a fellow human being. The suspect and victim met in early 2001, after Armin M is said to have posted a personal ad on several websites and in chatrooms asking for "young, well-built men aged 18 to 30 to slaughter", the German daily newspaper Bild reported at the time of his arrest. The advertisement read in part "Are you max 30 years old, with a normal body, then you are just right for me. I want to slaughter you and consume your delicious flesh." Sex on the Internet is well known. But cannibalism? It’s out there too. One particular web forum has an explicit board containing messages such as from Diana, looking for "an experienced butcher" for "conventional slaughter" at her home. A man offers to get rid of women aged up to 40 who have become "useless and a burden." Other visitors offer to sacrifice a foot, a hand or an ear. German criminologist Rudolf Egg (!) said it reflected on society as a whole. "People should ask themselves what they like about it, why they do it and what that actually reveals of their personality and their sexual frustrations in society." The victim in this particular case was a 43-year-old Berlin computer technician who had sold his car, written a will and taken the day off work to sort out what he called a "personal" matter. He then went to Armin M’s home, where the pair reportedly agreed to cut off his penis. Police declined comment on reports that they first flambeed the organ in spirits, then, after tasting it, decided to fry it. The macabre case is unprecedented in German legal history and has gripped the country in horrified fascination. Meiwes, a 42-year-old computer technician who says he regrets what he did, admits the killing but insists it was not murder as he was only doing what he had been asked. Testifying Wednesday on the opening day of his trial for murder, he said his fantasy first developed between the ages of eight and 12. He would imagine killing, carving up and eating schoolfriends whom he liked. Meiwes, dressed smartly in a dark jacket and tie, said he felt lonely as a child and longed for a younger brother, his father having abandoned the family. His longing for a brother led him to imagining binding a friend to him for ever by consuming him. It also aroused him sexually, he admitted. "Slim and blond, that would have been the type," he told the court. Meiwes said horror films and watching animals being slaughtered heightened his imagination. "I had the fantasy, and in the end I fulfilled it." Television pictures earlier showed him laughing and chatting easily to his lawyer moments before the trial opened in Kassel, central Germany. The case is legally complex as cannibalism is not a crime in Germany. Legal experts have doubted whether prosecutors will be able to sustain the charge of murder for the purposes of sexual satisfaction. Nevertheless, prosecutors argue that even though the victim, Bernd Juergen Brandes, had an apparent death wish, Meiwes is still guilty of murder because he was always intent on killing him. If convicted, he would be liable for life in prison. He is also accused of "disturbing the peace of the dead" for carving up the body. Defence lawyers argue that, at worst, he is guilty of "killing on demand," which would be punishable by up to five years in prison. It was unclear whether the videos taken during the incident in March 2001 would be shown in public or behind closed doors. Investigators who have scanned them have spoken of scenes like "in a horror film." Meiwes, who has admitted his actions to investigators and in interviews in newspapers, has said he made contact with Brandes, a 43-year-old Berlin engineer, on the Internet after advertising for someone willing to be killed and eaten. Brandes travelled to his house in Rotenburg, near Kassel, where Meiwes cut off his penis, which they partially ate together. Then Meiwes stabbed him, carved up the body, ate some of the flesh, stored some more in a deep-freeze for later consumption and buried bones and the skull in his garden. The whole scenario was recorded on video, again with the apparent agreement of Brandes. In an interview released Tuesday, Meiwes said it was not a case of murder because Brandes "used me as a tool" to help him die. "My friend enjoyed dying, death. I only waited horrified for the end after doing the deed. It took so terribly long," he said. The case did not emerge until an Austrian student spotted another advertisement placed by Meiwes on the Internet and alerted police. Officers who studied the 16 computers, 221 hard drives, 95 CD-Roms, nearly 1,800 diskettes and 307 videos found at his home tapped into a hitherto hidden cannibal scene. Apparently the victim lied about his age so he could participate! Obviously the cannibal swallowed his story. berko
Hi, I’m doing a cost-volume-profit analysis for a fictional business as part of my first year accounting studies. The text and the tutor’s notes are a little unclear on a particular matter. In calculating the fixed costs for this business do I include the $2000 a month the owner intends to draw from the business for his personal use? The business has already budgeted a certain amount for salaries and the $2000 is in addition to this amount. Would this be classed as a salary (fixed cost) or should it be left out of the equation altogether. Thanks in advance.
Hi, I’m doing a cost-volume-profit analysis for a fictional business as part of my first year accounting studies. The text and the tutor’s notes are a little unclear on a particular matter. In calculating the fixed costs for this business do I include the $2000 a month the owner intends to draw from the business for his personal use? The business has already budgeted a certain amount for salaries and the $2000 is in addition to this amount. Would this be classed as a salary (fixed cost) or should it be left out of the equation altogether. Thanks in advance.
include it in fixed costs
Hi, I’m doing a cost-volume-profit analysis for a fictional business as part of my first year accounting studies. The text and the tutor’s notes are a little unclear on a particular matter. In calculating the fixed costs for this business do I include the $2000 a month the owner intends to draw from the business for his personal use? The business has already budgeted a certain amount for salaries and the $2000 is in addition to this amount. Would this be classed as a salary (fixed cost) or should it be left out of the equation altogether. Thanks in advance.
I beg to differ with John slightly. If it’s a salary for work done, as an employee of the business and at a reasonable level, it’s a fixed cost. Ditto if it’s rent. If it’s anything over that it’s a drawing out of profit. The point to consider is the word ‘fixed’. If he ceases working for the business, then somebody else has to do that work for an equivalent amount. Hence it’s a fixed cost to the business – it can’t do without it. The proprietor doesn’t have to draw out excess amounts (unless he’s broke!), so that’s not a fixed cost to the business. So, with two different answers you may have preferred not to have asked the question in the first place. Sorry about that! Regards Mike
I agree with Mike on this one. Depends on the treatment of the director’s drawing, if it is P/L item or not…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m doing a cost-volume-profit analysis for a fictional business as part of my first year accounting studies. The text and the tutor’s notes are a little unclear on a particular matter. In calculating the fixed costs for this business do I include the $2000 a month the owner intends to draw from the business for his personal use? The business has already budgeted a certain amount for salaries and the $2000 is in addition to this amount. Would this be classed as a salary (fixed cost) or should it be left out of the equation altogether. Thanks in advance. I beg to differ with John slightly. If it’s a salary for work done, as an employee of the business and at a reasonable level, it’s a fixed cost. Ditto if it’s rent. If it’s anything over that it’s a drawing out of profit. The point to consider is the word ‘fixed’. If he ceases working for the business, then somebody else has to do that work for an equivalent amount. Hence it’s a fixed cost to the business – it can’t do without it. The proprietor doesn’t have to draw out excess amounts (unless he’s broke!), so that’s not a fixed cost to the business. So, with two different answers you may have preferred not to have asked the question in the first place. Sorry about that! Regards Mike
It sounds to me like the $2000/mth is a direct drawing on capital and wouldn’t be deemed an expense. Personally I would regard this as a red herring and document an assumption that this is irrelevant to the cost-volume-profit analysis as it’s in addition to budgeted salaries. As Mike says below, even if the drawing is personally necessary for the proprietor, it’s unnecessary for the business. Even though there may be a legal relationship between the proprietor and the business, the GAAP Entity convention assumes that they are completely separate from an accounting perspective. Hope this helps. Regards, Ian. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with Mike on this one. Depends on the treatment of the director’s drawing, if it is P/L item or not…… Hi, I’m doing a cost-volume-profit analysis for a fictional business as part of my first year accounting studies. The text and the tutor’s notes are a little unclear on a particular matter. In calculating the fixed costs for this business do I include the $2000 a month the owner intends to draw from the business for his personal use? The business has already budgeted a certain amount for salaries and the $2000 is in addition to this amount. Would this be classed as a salary (fixed cost) or should it be left out of the equation altogether. Thanks in advance. I beg to differ with John slightly. If it’s a salary for work done, as an employee of the business and at a reasonable level, it’s a fixed cost. Ditto if it’s rent. If it’s anything over that it’s a drawing out of profit. The point to consider is the word ‘fixed’. If he ceases working for the business, then somebody else has to do that work for an equivalent amount. Hence it’s a fixed cost to the business – it can’t do without it. The proprietor doesn’t have to draw out excess amounts (unless he’s broke!), so that’s not a fixed cost to the business. So, with two different answers you may have preferred not to have asked the question in the first place. Sorry about that! Regards Mike
Good point, but then you’re dealing with materiality issues. A $200m global operator is not going to serve any purpose by capitalising it’s paper clips. All down to relevance really.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many larger companies have a bulk pool of software assets that aren’t individually identified, Many larger companies just expense asset purchases under $500 or $1000 or some insane amount like that. A small to mid size company would never have any assets on their books if they followed "big company" accounting policies. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia
Your advice is much appreciated. So why do many large companies appear to be happy to endlessly upgrade software? Literally throwing out functioning software – and hardware – in the trash. Does an upgrade depreciate the previous version’s value to zero? And given that MS products, for example, are upgraded every year, how does this affect depreciation? (part curiosity & part doing my small business accounts electronically for the first time and wondering how to classify my software – some of which I buy, use once, then never use again!) Kind regards Nick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is computer software a fixed asset? (it usually functions for over a year – I have some 6 years old) Thanks Naive Newbie
So why do many large companies appear to be happy to endlessly upgrade software? Literally throwing out functioning software – and hardware – in the trash. Does an upgrade depreciate the previous version’s value to zero? And given that MS products, for example, are upgraded every year, how does this affect depreciation? (part curiosity & part doing my small business accounts electronically for the first time and wondering how to classify my software – some of which I buy, use once, then never use again!)
If you buy software that, for all purposes is not very useful, or can’t be used (it expires) one year later, then by all means just write it off. But, most major programs work year-in and year-out even if you didn’t buy the upgrade the *newest and bestest* version. Payroll software that is year specific (ie you can’t run 2003 payroll on 2002 software) is an example of a software that I’d just expense each year. My tax software is expensed each year, although I have several back years on my computer, and I *could* do a 2000 or 2001 return on them, for all real purposes they are obsolete. Now, my time and billing software isn’t year specific, and although they offer upgrades (for a fee), for all real purposes they don’t impact the usefulness of the existing software, and therefore get depreciated (expensed) over 3 years. Oh, by the way, software purchased separate from the hardware gets depreciated over 3 years and is not subject to Section 179 expensing. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
Many larger companies have a bulk pool of software assets that aren’t individually identified,
Many larger companies just expense asset purchases under $500 or $1000 or some insane amount like that. A small to mid size company would never have any assets on their books if they followed "big company" accounting policies. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia
So why do many large companies appear to be happy to endlessly upgrade software? Literally throwing out functioning software – and hardware – in the trash. Does an upgrade depreciate the previous version’s value to zero?
Many larger companies have a bulk pool of software assets that aren’t individually identified, any adjustments – ie, writeoffs, upgrades and acquisitions are just represented as changes to the overall balance in the software pool. What would happen is that the software may no longer be used but will still be depreciated over it’s initial 3-5yr term. Upgrades just get added onto the value of the software pool, this is good because it increases depreciation. end result = less profit, less tax. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So why do many large companies appear to be happy to endlessly upgrade software? Literally throwing out functioning software – and hardware – in the trash. Does an upgrade depreciate the previous version’s value to zero? And given that MS products, for example, are upgraded every year, how does this affect depreciation? (part curiosity & part doing my small business accounts electronically for the first time and wondering how to classify my software – some of which I buy, use once, then never use again!) If you buy software that, for all purposes is not very useful, or can’t be used (it expires) one year later, then by all means just write it off. But, most major programs work year-in and year-out even if you didn’t buy the upgrade the *newest and bestest* version. Payroll software that is year specific (ie you can’t run 2003 payroll on 2002 software) is an example of a software that I’d just expense each year. My tax software is expensed each year, although I have several back years on my computer, and I *could* do a 2000 or 2001 return on them, for all real purposes they are obsolete. Now, my time and billing software isn’t year specific, and although they offer upgrades (for a fee), for all real purposes they don’t impact the usefulness of the existing software, and therefore get depreciated (expensed) over 3 years. Oh, by the way, software purchased separate from the hardware gets depreciated over 3 years and is not subject to Section 179 expensing. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
Is computer software a fixed asset? (it usually functions for over a year – I have some 6 years old) Thanks Naive Newbie
Is computer software a fixed asset? (it usually functions for over a year – I have some 6 years old) Thanks Naive Newbie
computer software is a separate fixed asset tax category – 3 years – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Yep, sure is. Industry standard useful economic life is usually 3-5yrs.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is computer software a fixed asset? (it usually functions for over a year – I have some 6 years old) Thanks Naive Newbie
… Mike, Cruise over to SmartPros & read some Ed Ketz (Associate professor of accounting – Penn State’s Smeal College of Business Administration). You will find him very refreshing. http://accounting.smartpros.com/x34138.xml Jim Hudspeth
I always find it so humorous when a lawyer talks about greed……. almost always in other people. :-) — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * Students, when someone tells you of your great future as * * an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, most lay people look at the term C.P.A. and instantly assume that person is an expert on all levels of accounting. The CPA industry has sold the public on this notion, which is a false one. Yes, you will probably have to obtain the CPA certification to be accepted by clients, becoming an Enrolled Agent is a better plan for someone wanting to specialize in taxes. I don’t think the public knows the difference between a CPA and an EA (or cares either). I recently did some tax work for a person who had previously used an EA. The documentation provided to me included two cancelled checks paid to the EA for the tax work. On both checks the client and made the check out to Xxx Xxx, EA and had written CPA on the bottom of the check.
I’ve seen that, or at least similar, behavior before. If I was younger and wanted a career in tax I would go for either an EA or JD (or maybe both), depending on what area of tax I wanted to work in.
I agree. In today’s economy, I think a good tax lawyer can generate significantly more tax practice revenue than the a very good CPA. Some things I perceive on the horizon lead me to believe the gap will continue to grow. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * Students, when someone tells you of your great future as * * an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
…. Public accounting experience is very overrated. Especially experience at a large firm. And this is even more so today. I’m sure a lot of people love to tell a prospective employer that they worked at Arthur Anderson.
You better believe it. Big name employers are picking up those Andersen folks as fast as they can sign them up. I think Half singed around a thousand for a new division and Kroll, the security people, picked up a boatload. You will even see the unindited partners who WERE connected to the Enron and other "problems" picked up as fast as the employers can meet their salary demands. It is a simple historical fact. Unless the CPA is indited and convicted, they are still a desirable employee in the business community. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * Students, when someone tells you of your great future as * * an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
Jim, what did you attempt to accomplish by having me read that article ? My integrity is just fine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that anytime someone poses an honest question that makes someone else uncomfortable, we get this " no one put a gun to your head " kind of bullshit as a response ? " Fact: Most of the best paying jobs available to top students with undergraduate degrees in accounting are with large public accounting firms. " Right out of college ? I don’t think so. And for the massive hours that major accounting firms make new hires work, those seemingly good entry-level salaries often translate in a job paying 6 or 7 bucks an hour. And most people that join those firms don’t stay long enough to be making a very large salary. Most are burned out long before they get close to making six figures. " Fact: Experience in public accounting, particularly with large public accounting firms is viewed as desirable by many, if not most, other employers. " Public accounting experience is very overrated. Especially experience at a large firm. And this is even more so today. I’m sure a lot of people love to tell a prospective employer that they worked at Arthur Anderson. " If upon graduation you think you want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching to something else is relatively easy. If upon graduation you think you do not want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching from something else is relatively difficult. " Sure, and why not ? A public accounting firm would find it much easier to take hire, and then burn out a naive college student coming out of school then they would a good quality employee that happened to spend a few years in industry or in corporate accounting. " Yes. When those other employers are willing to compete on pay, growth potential, career opportunities, etc., they will get more exposure from typical accounting professors. " You mean a job with general electric as a cost accountant is a lesser quality job than an entry level job in a public accounting firm ? In which job would a new hire most likely be at in 5-10 years ? The public accounting firm, or at a quality company like GE ? Mike, Cruise over to SmartPros & read some Ed Ketz (Associate professor of accounting – Penn State’s Smeal College of Business Administration). You will find him very refreshing. http://accounting.smartpros.com/x34138.xml Jim Hudspeth
Jim, the biggest reason the public doesn’t know the difference between an EA and a CPA is that the CPA profession doesn’t want the public to know about Enrolled Agents. CPA’s sell themselves as the accounting experts and in many ways they are.
The latest conspiracy theory. The CPAs of America have entered a cabal with every segment of the news media to prevent public awareness of the existence of Enrolled Agents.
Jim, what did you attempt to accomplish by having me read that article ? My integrity is just fine.
Mike, Who said anything about your integrity? I thought the discussion had to do with the efficacy of accounting education. If you don’t want to read Professor Ketz, then don’t read read him. As Professor Brown stated in a prior post, no one is holding a gun to your head. I do think that Professor Brown deserves more respect than you are showing him. That has to do with manners, however, not integrity. As to flaming me – you don’t have enough gas. Jim Hudspeth
Why is it that anytime someone poses an honest question that makes someone else uncomfortable, we get this " no one put a gun to your head " kind of bullshit as a response ?
Why is it when someone gets brought up short for blaming others for stuff they can control for themselves, they start complaining about bullshit? " Fact: Most of the best paying jobs available to top students with undergraduate degrees in accounting are with large public accounting firms. " Right out of college ? I don’t think so. And for the massive hours that major accounting firms make new hires work, those seemingly good entry-level salaries often translate in a job paying 6 or 7 bucks an hour.
No one is holding a gun to your head. Reject any and all employment offers you get from any CPA firm of any size if that suits your preferences. And most people that join those firms don’t stay long enough to be making a very large salary. Most are burned out long before they get close to making six figures.
Good pay for an entry level position is considerably less than 6 figures. " Fact: Experience in public accounting, particularly with large public accounting firms is viewed as desirable by many, if not most, other employers. " Public accounting experience is very overrated. Especially experience
That is your opinion. That is not what I see in employment ads for mid-level accounting positions. at a large firm. And this is even more so today. I’m sure a lot of people love to tell a prospective employer that they worked at Arthur Anderson.
It would depend on how high they were at Andersen. Many of them, by the way, are currently working for the Other Four. " If upon graduation you think you want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching to something else is relatively easy. If upon graduation you think you do not want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching from something else is relatively difficult. " Sure, and why not ? A public accounting firm would find it much easier to take hire, and then burn out a naive college student coming out of school then they would a good quality employee that happened to spend a few years in industry or in corporate accounting.
Then don’t work for a public accounting firm No one is holding a gun to your head. " Yes. When those other employers are willing to compete on pay, growth potential, career opportunities, etc., they will get more exposure from typical accounting professors. " You mean a job with general electric as a cost accountant is a lesser quality job than an entry level job in a public accounting firm ? In which job would a new hire most likely be at in 5-10 years ? The public accounting firm, or at a quality company like GE ?
Go to work for GE. No one is forcing you to work in public accounting. <<SNIP Is public accounting the only answer ? Answer to which question?
That retort was, of course, intended to point out that Mike was neither asking questions nor seeking information.
Jim, the biggest reason the public doesn’t know the difference between an EA and a CPA is that the CPA profession doesn’t want the public to know about Enrolled Agents. CPA’s sell themselves as the accounting experts and in many ways they are. But not on everything. Unless they specialize in tax, a CPA is no more knolwedgeable about taxation than an Enrolled Agent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, most lay people look at the term C.P.A. and instantly assume that person is an expert on all levels of accounting. The CPA industry has sold the public on this notion, which is a false one. Yes, you will probably have to obtain the CPA certification to be accepted by clients, becoming an Enrolled Agent is a better plan for someone wanting to specialize in taxes. I don’t think the public knows the difference between a CPA and an EA (or cares either). I recently did some tax work for a person who had previously used an EA. The documentation provided to me included two cancelled checks paid to the EA for the tax work. On both checks the client and made the check out to Xxx Xxx, EA and had written CPA on the bottom of the check. If I was younger and wanted a career in tax I would go for either an EA or JD (or maybe both), depending on what area of tax I wanted to work in. Jim Hudspeth, CPA
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW, I think (didn’t pay too much attention to it as I am, and always was, too old to work for a CPA firm) California changed its accounting act so that 49% of the firm partners could be non CPAs. I think this (or something similar) is in practice everywhere now. I could try to look it up but I think it actually is a rule propagated by the AICPA that non-CPAs can be partners now. I’m told that many large firms have lawyers as partners, though I haven’t had contact with any large firms to validate this.
Previously, I believe they had "principles" who were partners in substance but not in the legal form. Or something like that. AIR being told, It was the way the firms kept things like the consultants and tax lawyers who generated really big revenue. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * Students, when someone tells you of your great future as * * an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that anytime someone poses an honest question that makes someone else uncomfortable, we get this " no one put a gun to your head " kind of bullshit as a response ? " Fact: Most of the best paying jobs available to top students with undergraduate degrees in accounting are with large public accounting firms. " Right out of college ? I don’t think so. And for the massive hours that major accounting firms make new hires work, those seemingly good entry-level salaries often translate in a job paying 6 or 7 bucks an hour. And most people that join those firms don’t stay long enough to be making a very large salary. Most are burned out long before they get close to making six figures. " Fact: Experience in public accounting, particularly with large public accounting firms is viewed as desirable by many, if not most, other employers. " Public accounting experience is very overrated. Especially experience at a large firm. And this is even more so today. I’m sure a lot of people love to tell a prospective employer that they worked at Arthur Anderson. " If upon graduation you think you want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching to something else is relatively easy. If upon graduation you think you do not want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching from something else is relatively difficult. " Sure, and why not ? A public accounting firm would find it much easier to take hire, and then burn out a naive college student coming out of school then they would a good quality employee that happened to spend a few years in industry or in corporate accounting. " Yes. When those other employers are willing to compete on pay, growth potential, career opportunities, etc., they will get more exposure from typical accounting professors. " You mean a job with general electric as a cost accountant is a lesser quality job than an entry level job in a public accounting firm ? In which job would a new hire most likely be at in 5-10 years ? The public accounting firm, or at a quality company like GE ?
Mike, Cruise over to SmartPros & read some Ed Ketz (Associate professor of accounting – Penn State’s Smeal College of Business Administration). You will find him very refreshing. http://accounting.smartpros.com/x34138.xml Jim Hudspeth
John, most lay people look at the term C.P.A. and instantly assume that person is an expert on all levels of accounting. The CPA industry has sold the public on this notion, which is a false one. Yes, you will probably have to obtain the CPA certification to be accepted by clients, becoming an Enrolled Agent is a better plan for someone wanting to specialize in taxes.
I don’t think the public knows the difference between a CPA and an EA (or cares either). I recently did some tax work for a person who had previously used an EA. The documentation provided to me included two cancelled checks paid to the EA for the tax work. On both checks the client and made the check out to Xxx Xxx, EA and had written CPA on the bottom of the check. If I was younger and wanted a career in tax I would go for either an EA or JD (or maybe both), depending on what area of tax I wanted to work in. Jim Hudspeth, CPA
John, most lay people look at the term C.P.A. and instantly assume that person is an expert on all levels of accounting. The CPA industry has sold the public on this notion, which is a false one. Yes, you will probably have to obtain the CPA certification to be accepted by clients, becoming an Enrolled Agent is a better plan for someone wanting to specialize in taxes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is not the only answer, but it is the place you will probably have to work if you intend to become a Certified Public Accountant. A lot of money can be made by someone who is not a CPA, but works in accounting in industry. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation Wayne, I’m getting ready to start a Master’s of Taxation program in the next few months, and was wondering how necessary the CPA title is for getting ahead in the Tax world. One of my prof’s once stated "a CPA is basically a license to audit public companies". Well, I don’t ever see myself doing this! Will -not- having the CPA affect my payscale? (I’m looking to work with small-to-mid-size firms). -=john=-
Why is it that anytime someone poses an honest question that makes someone else uncomfortable, we get this " no one put a gun to your head " kind of bullshit as a response ? " Fact: Most of the best paying jobs available to top students with undergraduate degrees in accounting are with large public accounting firms. " Right out of college ? I don’t think so. And for the massive hours that major accounting firms make new hires work, those seemingly good entry-level salaries often translate in a job paying 6 or 7 bucks an hour. And most people that join those firms don’t stay long enough to be making a very large salary. Most are burned out long before they get close to making six figures. " Fact: Experience in public accounting, particularly with large public accounting firms is viewed as desirable by many, if not most, other employers. " Public accounting experience is very overrated. Especially experience at a large firm. And this is even more so today. I’m sure a lot of people love to tell a prospective employer that they worked at Arthur Anderson. " If upon graduation you think you want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching to something else is relatively easy. If upon graduation you think you do not want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching from something else is relatively difficult. " Sure, and why not ? A public accounting firm would find it much easier to take hire, and then burn out a naive college student coming out of school then they would a good quality employee that happened to spend a few years in industry or in corporate accounting. " Yes. When those other employers are willing to compete on pay, growth potential, career opportunities, etc., they will get more exposure from typical accounting professors. " You mean a job with general electric as a cost accountant is a lesser quality job than an entry level job in a public accounting firm ? In which job would a new hire most likely be at in 5-10 years ? The public accounting firm, or at a quality company like GE ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms. I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places. Did they put a gun to your head? Did you lose your free will when you declared accounting as major? Fact: Most of the external financial support to accounting programs comes from large public accounting firms. (This is not a suggestion they buy endorsements. It is a suggestion that they are the ones who see value in accounting education.) Fact: Most of the best paying jobs available to top students with undergraduate degrees in accounting are with large public accounting firms. Fact: Experience in public accounting, particularly with large public accounting firms is viewed as desirable by many, if not most, other employers. Fact: Some accounting programs see placing their grads with big CPA firms as being a more important objective than other programs see that objective. Fact: Accounting as a separate discipline exists because of public accounting. Fact: If upon graduation you think you want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching to something else is relatively easy. If upon graduation you think you do not want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching from something else is relatively difficult. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ? Yes. When those other employers are willing to compete on pay, growth potential, career opportunities, etc., they will get more exposure from typical accounting professors. Is public accounting the only answer ? Answer to which question?
The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms. I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places.
Did they put a gun to your head? Did you lose your free will when you declared accounting as major? Fact: Most of the external financial support to accounting programs comes from large public accounting firms. (This is not a suggestion they buy endorsements. It is a suggestion that they are the ones who see value in accounting education.) Fact: Most of the best paying jobs available to top students with undergraduate degrees in accounting are with large public accounting firms. Fact: Experience in public accounting, particularly with large public accounting firms is viewed as desirable by many, if not most, other employers. Fact: Some accounting programs see placing their grads with big CPA firms as being a more important objective than other programs see that objective. Fact: Accounting as a separate discipline exists because of public accounting. Fact: If upon graduation you think you want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching to something else is relatively easy. If upon graduation you think you do not want to work for a large CPA firm and later decide you made a mistake, switching from something else is relatively difficult. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ?
Yes. When those other employers are willing to compete on pay, growth potential, career opportunities, etc., they will get more exposure from typical accounting professors. Is public accounting the only answer ?
Answer to which question?
Not only does the license open doors, you cannot be a partner in a public accounting firm if you are not a CPA. Which would limit advancement in a public firm. But then again, that might not be a bad thing. If you don’t practice as a CPA, you don’t have the nasty unlimited liability problem…
FWIW, I think (didn’t pay too much attention to it as I am, and always was, too old to work for a CPA firm) California changed its accounting act so that 49% of the firm partners could be non CPAs. Naturally, only CPA partners could supervise and sign on the attest functions. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * Students, when someone tells you of your great future as * * an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
FWIW, I think (didn’t pay too much attention to it as I am, and always was, too old to work for a CPA firm) California changed its accounting act so that 49% of the firm partners could be non CPAs.
I think this (or something similar) is in practice everywhere now. I could try to look it up but I think it actually is a rule propagated by the AICPA that non-CPAs can be partners now. I’m told that many large firms have lawyers as partners, though I haven’t had contact with any large firms to validate this. — Todd Stephens
The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms. I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ? Is public accounting the only answer ?
Most programs are designed around passing the CPA exam, as most any academic curriculum is designed around passing some test or another these days. Until groups like the IMA and the IIA get the notoriety and clout of the AICPA, this is the way the situation will be. This shouldn’t keep someone out of private industry. The knowledge gained in a financial accounting course is invaluable to those working outside of public accounting as well. The auditing courses are the ones that I find least useful for someone looking to go the CMA route. — Todd Stephens
The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms. I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ? Is public accounting the only answer ?
I feel that my school has offered a fairly even split between corporate/cost and public accounting. The area where it really lacks is Tax, with one required course, and one advanced elective offered ONE quarter a year! (and its always full!) Not counting the intro acct courses required for all business majors, when I graduate I’ll have: Auditing Advanced Financial (Analysis, Mergers&Acquisitions, Foreign Currency Translation) Contemporary Accounting Theory (basically getting a watered down version of our prof’s doctoral studies) Cost Accounting Intermediate Financial (3 Quarters!!)(basically CPA material) Personal Tax (rather basic) -=john=-
It is not the only answer, but it is the place you will probably have to work if you intend to become a Certified Public Accountant. A lot of money can be made by someone who is not a CPA, but works in accounting in industry. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation
Wayne, I’m getting ready to start a Master’s of Taxation program in the next few months, and was wondering how necessary the CPA title is for getting ahead in the Tax world. One of my prof’s once stated "a CPA is basically a license to audit public companies". Well, I don’t ever see myself doing this! Will -not- having the CPA affect my payscale? (I’m looking to work with small-to-mid-size firms). -=john=-
Wayne, I’m getting ready to start a Master’s of Taxation program in the next few months, and was wondering how necessary the CPA title is for getting ahead in the Tax world. One of my prof’s once stated "a CPA is basically a license to audit public companies". Well, I don’t ever see myself doing this! Will -not- having the CPA affect my payscale? (I’m looking to work with small-to-mid-size firms).
I’d say yes. Having a CPA and a Masters in Tax would be much better for opening doors at a Public accounting firm (especially the tax positions) than not having a CPA. The clients EXPECT it. You have to have it. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is not the only answer, but it is the place you will probably have to work if you intend to become a Certified Public Accountant. A lot of money can be made by someone who is not a CPA, but works in accounting in industry. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation Wayne, I’m getting ready to start a Master’s of Taxation program in the next few months, and was wondering how necessary the CPA title is for getting ahead in the Tax world. One of my prof’s once stated "a CPA is basically a license to audit public companies". Well, I don’t ever see myself doing this! Will -not- having the CPA affect my payscale? (I’m looking to work with small-to-mid-size firms). -=john=-
Having become a CPA is supposed to add prestige and whatever might go with it, but it is not necessary in terms of tax planning and preparation. Your professor was right- performing a financial audit for a company is the only thing that CPA’s can do that no other accountant is legally allowed to do. If you intend to work in CPA firms, I would say that it may be necessary to have it so your pay scale will not be so low. If you intend to get the Masters degree and start your own firm, it will not be necessary. What you would need to do if you choose not to go for the CPA designation is to take the Special Enrollment Examination given each September by the IRS and become an Enrolled Agent. That will give you more prestige as well as enabling you to represent your clients in tax matters more adequately. Good luck in your future. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation
The CPA certificate is mainly important if you actually work in public accounting or if you are fresh out of school with little experience. With little experience it is a good credential — same for an MBA. Once you go to work anywhere other than a public accounting firm it is not too important. You will then be judged more on work performance and "interpersonal skills."
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms. I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ? Is public accounting the only answer ? I feel that my school has offered a fairly even split between corporate/cost and public accounting. The area where it really lacks is Tax, with one required course, and one advanced elective offered ONE quarter a year! (and its always full!) Not counting the intro acct courses required for all business majors, when I graduate I’ll have: Auditing Advanced Financial (Analysis, Mergers&Acquisitions, Foreign Currency Translation) Contemporary Accounting Theory (basically getting a watered down version of our prof’s doctoral studies) Cost Accounting Intermediate Financial (3 Quarters!!)(basically CPA material) Personal Tax (rather basic) -=john=-
The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms.
Sometime back, the School of Business was the campus money maker. Not sure that has been true for some time. There are numerous anecdotes about the low esteem that business faculty was held in by the "real professors, with real doctorates." I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ?
I don’t know. I never got an answer. I know that my school left out or glossed over a lot of areas that are important in government and corporate. Of course, once you get through the program, you have the tools to pick up anything. Is public accounting the only answer ?
No. I think it one of the smallest segments of accounting. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * Students, when someone tells you of your great future as * * an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms. I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ? Is public accounting the only answer ?
It is not the only answer, but it is the place you will probably have to work if you intend to become a Certified Public Accountant. A lot of money can be made by someone who is not a CPA, but works in accounting in industry. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation
The college I went to had an accounting and business department that was set up above all else to push it’s accounting students towards jobs in public accounting firms. I’ve always resented this. Public Accounting is not a place that most students will spend their careers at. Most people that go into public accounting don’t stay in it more than a few years and then get jobs other places. Why don’t colleges realize that there are other places accountants can get jobs at such as industry ? Is public accounting the only answer ?
Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on. So, choose your colleagues wisely,
How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? Chris
On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job. —
It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. Chris
How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston?
You don’t know what’s going on specifically, but "you" as a collective group of employees and partners didn’t do a whole lot to stop the shredding of documents that may or may not have been crucial in determining the facts. Any one of you could have, and a whole lot of you should have, stepped up to the plate and said STOP THIS. And while a few priests have disgraced the priesthood as well as the Catholic Church, so have a few Andersen CPA’s disgraced Andersen as well as every CPA in the world. Now we all have to wait to see just how muddied the designation has become, and if the stain ever washes off. THANK YOU AA. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com
How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston?
A real problem–but one that any Big 5 firm is going to face. It’s the nature of the beast that you have potential exposure to the actions of people in other offices. You would hope that the internal and quality controls are sufficient to give assurance that such problems aren’t happening undetected for a long period of time. In fact, professional standards demand The results in Waste Management, Sunbeam, Baptist Foundation of Arizona and Enron suggest that, in fact, those systems weren’t working very well at Andersen. That said, you say you have 3.5 years with Andersen. If you started with them straight out of school, that means you are in the very early stages of your career. I would caution you that over your career you are going to experience a lot of ups and downs–and, in fact, while this situation appears terrible today, you are extremely likely to recover from it relatively quickly. The work Andersen did is still going to be done–just by other firms. And those firms are going to be hiring accountants, assuming they weren’t terribly overstaffed to start with. You should be in a good position to go with whatever firm landed the account you just lost.
It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.
You mean the "Final Four"? I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.
Therein lies the problem. It should be crossing your mind every day. I know that’s the case in my (and I mean I own it) practice. Whether it’s a tax issue, accounting, billing, collection, employee issues, client acceptance, retention, etc. the decisions made each day affect your ethics, morality, integrity, etc. – not to mention the bottom line. And in my practice, my income is based on what’s left over for me after the business bills get paid. I’ve lost clients (big ones) and/or never obtained a client because I wouldn’t DO what they thought should be done. And of course that not only hurts the business bottom line, but my personal earnings as well. I am sure that similar (albeit significantly larger in dollars) pressure resides with the partners at AA and the other four firms. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com
…. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.
Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.
You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia, * * the Seventh worst state for business, * * Ayn Rand was right *
The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
I take it you are an Andersen employee or associate. You seem to be blaming DOJ and the media for Andersen’s screw ups. So let me see what should be done here. Should everyone just turn a blind eye to this fiasco in which YOUR firm was involved? Muzzle the media? And the Department of Justice should give preferential treatment to Andersen and not investigate and prosecute if there were wrong doings or fraud? It is regrettable that you are losing customers and I understand that you had nothing to do with the fiasco, but your anger is directed at the wrong people. The DOJ and media are doing their jobs. Your anger needs to be directed at the top Andersen Brass, they are responsible for your plight, not the media. By not investigating and reporting on this the DOJ and media would be doing a disservice to all American and some foreigners as some Enron stock was held by foreigners. So what you are saying is your interests should be protected at the expense of everybody else’s. I’m sorry, that’s not equitable. As for your customers bailing out on you I do sympathize, if you gave them unparalleled service for many years it seems unfair. But it’s a free country and you have to understand that some customers are nervous and they don’t want the additional stress of being unsure about their accounting firm. Business is hard enough without headaches that one doesn’t need or have any control over, so they are acting with prudence and due care. They are protecting their interests. If the whole thing really blows right apart why should they be unwitting victims? They really have nothing to do with this, they are not Andersen employees or associates, they are customers. In business if one of your suppliers is about to go bankrupt or get sued you have to take measures to ensure uninterrupted supplies and continuance of your affairs as smoothly as possible. You cannot expect anything else, not doing so would be poor business practice. This whole thing is somewhat comparable to the Ford Explorer debacle. When Firestone tires were flying apart and Explorers were flying head first in ditches a lot of people who were not directly responsible suffered. There was only 2 line of Firestone tires that were at issue, yet sale of all Firestone tires suffered, even wheelbarrow tires. People who had never even seen a Ford Explorer were affected. Employees of Bridgestone Tires, which owns Firestone, lost their jobs even though there was nothing wrong with their products. And Ford employees who weren’t in anyway even closely working on Explorers lost their jobs, not to mention Ford suppliers, dealers and contractor. What should have been done then? No congressional investigation and muzzle the media? Just be thankful you’re not a 75 year old widow who has lost all of her life savings on Enron stock. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
That concept is really too much for me. Its like blaming all Germans for No. It’s like blaming the people responsible for Andersen’s policies and decision making for not meeting their responsibilities to their profession, their colleagues, and the users of the financial statements they pretended to audit.
We agree to disagree on that. Most of the people at Andersen probably didn’t have the remotest clue of what was going. I will believe that until it is proved otherwise. They don’t deserve the sticks and stones. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<SNIP I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job. They have enough to deal with. Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few. And the point of that is what? People you work with are subject to being screwed over if colleagues they trust do wrong? Tell me, if someone in your organization breaks the law – say your boss, for example – and the company ceases to exist because when the boss is caught and indicted, the business goes under, are you going to blame your boss, who broke the law, or are you going to blame the cops who arrested him?
Actually, I just went through that. Six or seven allegations were thrown out against the head of my organization and supported by the W Post. The allegations seem oh so true. However, ALL of the allegations were disapproven. The issues are now dead. Had my organization been AA, we would be out of business based on the unscrouplous tactics of a few– those making the allegations. ///I just can’t write what needs to be written above and had to remove about 5 lines. //// I know what you are trying to say. My issue was that AA people are not all equally guilty. We don’t know the extent that upper level people were involved in the decision making. We do know the system of quality control was ineffective if not totally broken. Indict those who broke the law, not those who were not connected. I see nothing wrong with Cris questioning the tactics of the "cops." The fact is that cops/investigators have a mission and they don’t mind hurting the innocent a bit a long the way to get the guilty. Car chases, exposed whistle blowers, and others are obvious examples. Depending on the damage done, I would even support a bit of that to get the guilty….I’m not sure where the line is and I’m glad I don’t get involved in that area. The fact that he chose to attack that aspect doesn’t preclude that he would attack the actual perpetrators at AA. He has been silent on that probably because everyone has already discussed that and he probably agrees. Your example doesn’t fit well because they aren’t attacking the boss alone, they are going after the firm, which is thousands of people, some of which could be your friends and relativess and who are perfectly innocent of any wrong doing. He has every right to be ticked at the methodology no matter how much you agree with it. Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm. To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues. Mostly, I’m painting the ones who were directly involved in the wrong doing and the ones who insist upon defending the indefensible.
That’s find…but the tone in this thread has been recently and continues to be that all of AA had to know what went on and are therefore guilty of at least inaction. I don’t buy that and must challenge that position. By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general.
In that, we agree. I will tell you this— if the big 5 are tainted, they run rings around the small firms in terms of ethics. I think in a year or two, this aspect will become clear. The free ride is over and the AA debacle has made it easier to challenge the work of all CPAs. Respectfully, Tippy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards, Bill
By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general.
There’s truly the frightful part. If there are substantial problems with the other guys, there are two possibilities: - Perhaps the "blood-letting" at AA may be a sufficient scare to draw others back from the brink of further disaster; - Alternatively, perhaps there’s worse to come, including problems of devaluation of all sorts of companies out there. The latter is what people should be quite fearful of, and both possibilities represent good political reason for the DOJ to be as harsh as possible with AA. That’s small comfort for those unjustly affected by the harshness; it wouldn’t be the first time, and it won’t be the last. Ronald Reagan fired about 12000 air traffic controllers, which was rather harsh, and bites people to this day. At that time, the issue was "defense of the airways;" today, it’s "defense of stock valuations." And of course, in _this_ situation, things are quite conflated because there are _two_ plausible causes for the bleeding away of AA clients: a) Really, really, really bad publicity about Enron, coming in the wake of some other "bad publicity" scenarios, and b) DOJ becoming an adversary. Blaming all the problems on the DOJ indictment represents a very _convenient_ apologia; I suppose we’ll never know for sure if things would have come to a similar "head" without that indictment. — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/spiritual.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #200. "During times of peace, my Legions of Terror will not be permitted to lie around drinking mead and eating roast boar. Instead they will be required to obey my dietician and my aerobics instructor." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/
That concept is really too much for me. Its like blaming all Germans for
No. It’s like blaming the people responsible for Andersen’s policies and decision making for not meeting their responsibilities to their profession, their colleagues, and the users of the financial statements they pretended to audit. <<SNIP I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job. They have enough to deal with. Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few.
And the point of that is what? People you work with are subject to being screwed over if colleagues they trust do wrong? Tell me, if someone in your organization breaks the law – say your boss, for example – and the company ceases to exist because when the boss is caught and indicted, the business goes under, are you going to blame your boss, who broke the law, or are you going to blame the cops who arrested him? Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm. To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues.
Mostly, I’m painting the ones who were directly involved in the wrong doing and the ones who insist upon defending the indefensible. By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general. Regards, Bill
I’d love to see your reactions if your career was dramatically affecting by the unfortunate conduct of a few, especially if you didn’t even work in the audit practice, like at least 60% of the people employed by Andersen.
I’d be pissed as hell and I’d be blaming the ones who committed the "unfortunate conduct," not the cops for bringing them to justice. By the way, I had a job in a Big 8 firm – back in the days when at least in that office, there was a note of pride in the voices of the professional staff when commenting that the partner in charge was a man of _integrity_.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy.
It is entirely plausible that in 3 1/2 years, the individual in question hasn’t been near enough to _serious_ involvement with marketing or practice management to see much in the way of "scary issues." Contrary to Hollywood scenarios as in _The Rainmaker_, where just-out-of-school lawyers immediately get thrown into complex negotiations, with their practical education coming from senior lawyers who run strip clubs on the side and outrun FBI investigations, in the _real world,_ it takes a few years for those in the big firms to get around to dealing with sensitive situations. Someone who may have barely been a CPA for a year or maybe two isn’t likely to be out pounding the pavement in the "business development" area which _is_ the place where thare are likely to be hefty ethical challenges. Indeed, a junior auditor working in Utah is liable to be too busy writing up timesheets and searching for billable time to have the time to look for terribly many polygamists. :-) — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/languages.html "The classic Common Lisp defmacro is like a cook’s knife; an elegant idea which seems dangerous, but which experts use with confidence." — Paul Graham, _On Lisp_
With incredible insight like that it’s really surprising that you’re unemployed with your MBA & CPA credentials. Did you learn your know it all sarcasm in your graduate program. Let alone all the bitter holier than thou sole proprietors just waiting to pile on the Big 5 firms because you couldn’t get hired out of college. I know this isn’t the case with all of the respondents in this newsgroup, but it sure is the general tone of the piling on uninformed responses that I’ve read. I’d love to see your reactions if your career was dramatically affecting by the unfortunate conduct of a few, especially if you didn’t even work in the audit practice, like at least 60% of the people employed by Andersen. Take a look in the mirror before you slam the concerns of the mostly excellent professionals working at Andersen.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s
statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia, * * the Seventh worst state for business, * * Ayn Rand was right *
Tippy w/ unpopular views
Without a difference of opinion there could be no discussion. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com
It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely: As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not.
I suspect he meant that he never detected an issue of integrity, ethics, or independence or that such matters never surfaced as an issue to him. As similarly stated by Paul (I think), auditors should always have an awareness of such matters. As authority increases, so does the need to keep an awareness of these matters. But even a junior auditor can compromise work by applying to work for the client without recusing himself from work on that client. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s
statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
That concept is really too much for me. Its like blaming all Germans for the holocaust when many left the country and many helped the Jews escape. Yes, people still believe that *all* Germans were responsible for the holocaust. Or blaming all of any group. The idea that people throughout the entire organization (AA) at all levels had at least an inkling belies realistic behavior. I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job. They have enough to deal with. Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few. Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm. To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues. Tippy w/ unpopular views – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? You don’t know what’s going on specifically, but "you" as a collective group of employees and partners didn’t do a whole lot to stop the shredding of documents that may or may not have been crucial in determining the facts. Any one of you could have, and a whole lot of you should have, stepped up to the plate and said STOP THIS. And while a few priests have disgraced the priesthood as well as the Catholic Church, so have a few Andersen CPA’s disgraced Andersen as well as every CPA in the world. Now we all have to wait to see just how muddied the designation has become, and if the stain ever washes off. THANK YOU AA. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com
Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on. So, choose your colleagues wisely, How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? Chris
There are some very smart people in this group…but empathy is not always easy when the whole profession has been tainted by your colleagues. I am not in agreement with most of the group–respectfully, I see an attitude of "holier than thou" that will diminish over time. (Some posters are strictly factual or speculative rather than emotional.) For the most part, few are challenging the prevailing view here. When there is near consensus, you won’t see much sympathy for those I believe were unfairly tainted. OTOH, why would anyone want their financial statements examined by Andersen when its reputation has been so tainted. I suspect that potential investors would worry about why a tainted CPA firm is continuing to opine on the corporation…are shenanigans going on between AA and the firm. Fair? Perhaps. Tippy
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job. — It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.
It is more a mixture of contempt and sorrow. I once held the "Big 8" in high regard. No more. In my quieter moments I grieve for what we have all lost, primarily as a result of the unbridled greed of a few. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.
Innocence lost. It happens to most of us sooner or later. You will no doubt get caught up in the next 3 1/2. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com
It remains to be seen whether DOJ has a winnable case. The media rarely gets the facts right, they take the easy road until they find out they are on losing side of an issue and then they turn on the other side like a dog. In the meantime, honorable people get hurt. But the end justifies the means, right. As much as I admire most of the intentions of our "crimefighters," they sometimes get it wrong and people are hurt. More often than not, information is somehow leaked that taints individuals and firms…and the investigations lead nowhere. Oftentimes, politicians pressure investigators and others in government…the pressure is powerful sometimes. Years ago, I led a multiagency federal (PCIE) audit that yielded results different than the politician wanted to see. That didn’t go over well but the testing was good and the results stood. I’m not so sure that the FBI and certain others can withstand the pressure placed on them to yield results beneficial to the desires of the politicians. My point is simply that Andersen apparently was decentralized to point it was not as effective as it was supposed to be. But, does that mean that those who were effective have to lose their jobs because they are associated with Andersen. Okay, so be it. The public has the right to choose. But why should any CPA be held in any higher esteem than those of Andersen. For the most part, CPAs went to the same schools, the same ethics, the same friends, etc. What happened at Andersen has very likely happened in varying degrees at big and small CPA firms throughout this country. The holier than thou business just doesn’t fly — if you blame all of Andersen then you need to blame everyone. As we all know, control systems are just as good as the people in the positions— and I suggest to you that Andersen’s people, overall, were just as good. Sorry a bit rambling, okay a lot. Tippy BTW, look at the FBI, the screwed up so badly with Hansen…but who is being held accountable….nobody but Hansen. They had zip controls over access to classified and sensitive information…according to our media friends.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take it you are an Andersen employee or associate. You seem to be blaming DOJ and the media for Andersen’s screw ups. So let me see what should be done here. Should everyone just turn a blind eye to this fiasco in which YOUR firm was involved? Muzzle the media? And the Department of Justice should give preferential treatment to Andersen and not investigate and prosecute if there were wrong doings or fraud? It is regrettable that you are losing customers and I understand that you had nothing to do with the fiasco, but your anger is directed at the wrong people. The DOJ and media are doing their jobs. Your anger needs to be directed at the top Andersen Brass, they are responsible for your plight, not the media. By not investigating and reporting on this the DOJ and media would be doing a disservice to all American and some foreigners as some Enron stock was held by foreigners. So what you are saying is your interests should be protected at the expense of everybody else’s. I’m sorry, that’s not equitable. As for your customers bailing out on you I do sympathize, if you gave them unparalleled service for many years it seems unfair. But it’s a free country and you have to understand that some customers are nervous and they don’t want the additional stress of being unsure about their accounting firm. Business is hard enough without headaches that one doesn’t need or have any control over, so they are acting with prudence and due care. They are protecting their interests. If the whole thing really blows right apart why should they be unwitting victims? They really have nothing to do with this, they are not Andersen employees or associates, they are customers. In business if one of your suppliers is about to go bankrupt or get sued you have to take measures to ensure uninterrupted supplies and continuance of your affairs as smoothly as possible. You cannot expect anything else, not doing so would be poor business practice. This whole thing is somewhat comparable to the Ford Explorer debacle. When Firestone tires were flying apart and Explorers were flying head first in ditches a lot of people who were not directly responsible suffered. There was only 2 line of Firestone tires that were at issue, yet sale of all Firestone tires suffered, even wheelbarrow tires. People who had never even seen a Ford Explorer were affected. Employees of Bridgestone Tires, which owns Firestone, lost their jobs even though there was nothing wrong with their products. And Ford employees who weren’t in anyway even closely working on Explorers lost their jobs, not to mention Ford suppliers, dealers and contractor. What should have been done then? No congressional investigation and muzzle the media? Just be thankful you’re not a 75 year old widow who has lost all of her life savings on Enron stock. John The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
Therein lies the problem. It should be crossing your mind every day.
Hopefully he meant he has never had to compromise his ethics *AND* that his ethics are not warped to begin with. But, as you note, the real question is whether you’ve ever had to make a decision that took money out of your pocket in order to sustain an ethical position. My guess is that, with 3 1/2 years experience, he may actually not have faced such a decision. But it will come–and when you make that decision, it tells a lot about you. As you note, when you have your own practice these types of decisions occur quite often. And, in many cases, the ethical choice is one that is going to take money directly out of my pocket in the short term. And, if the problem is never uncovered (and in most cases it’s highly unlikely that it will be), the decision takes money out of your pocket over the long term.
Thanks Jim, and earlier, Ed Zollars. I emphatically agree. I never cheated. I paid heavily for the privilege. Many of us have watched other managers and partners make money cheating. And said nothing, while getting paychecks out of the revenue they made for our firm. Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on. So, choose your colleagues wisely, Todd Boyle CPA Kirkland WA The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
[...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personal experience here. As I’ve mentioned before, I was involved in a decision that lead to the loss of a client that made up nearly 10% of firm revenues for a local firm–and which we knew would lead to the loss of that client when we made the decision. I know how difficult it is to make decisions in that context–and what temptation exists to find some way to prevent that loss of revenue from occurring. And that temptation exists for all professional staff on the engagement–from the partner level all the way down to the staffer who is likely going to be laid off if the revenue can’t be replaced. At the time, the economy in Phoenix was bad enough that it was highly unlikely that revenue replacement would occur AND it was going to be very difficult for any laid off staff to find a new position. In the case in question had we decided to simply do what the client wanted, we would have retained the fees, the partners would have not had to skip being paid for a while and at least one layoff would have been avoided. We decided, however, that we couldn’t live with that decision from a moral or professional standpoint. Been there; done that; numerous times. On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job.
Arthur Anderson? The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing.
"It’s God’s job to sort out what to do with terrorists. It’s our job to deliver them to God. " I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing.
Let me be as clear as I can. If people perceive you and your office’s audit opinion as being tainted it is because of the behavior of your associates in Houston and Chicago. That is where you should direct your "thanks," not to DOJ and the media. I’m sorry for your troubles. I’m more sorry for the troubles now being experienced by the financial markets; all auditors’ opinions are now tainted, not just yours. I’m more sorry for the lowered regard in which all CPAs are now held. I put the primary blame for these bad things where it belongs, with Andersen’s decision makers in Houston and Chicago. Good luck to you and the rest of us as well.
The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week. It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job. They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media. Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday. Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris
— copy / paste from another thread — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personal experience here. As I’ve mentioned before, I was involved in a decision that lead to the loss of a client that made up nearly 10% of firm revenues for a local firm–and which we knew would lead to the loss of that client when we made the decision. I know how difficult it is to make decisions in that context–and what temptation exists to find some way to prevent that loss of revenue from occurring. And that temptation exists for all professional staff on the engagement–from the partner level all the way down to the staffer who is likely going to be laid off if the revenue can’t be replaced. At the time, the economy in Phoenix was bad enough that it was highly unlikely that revenue replacement would occur AND it was going to be very difficult for any laid off staff to find a new position. In the case in question had we decided to simply do what the client wanted, we would have retained the fees, the partners would have not had to skip being paid for a while and at least one layoff would have been avoided. We decided, however, that we couldn’t live with that decision from a moral or professional standpoint.
Been there; done that; numerous times. On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye. A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education. Go get another job. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com
Good grief people. If you know anything at all about QB, you would realize that you cannot simply put an entry into the "Opening Balance Equity" account without an offsetting entry into another account. And yes, the "Opening Balance Equity" is a very integral part of QB. QB is one of many double-entry accounting packages available for small businesses. I am a Certified QuickBooks ProAdvisor, and I know the software inside and out. 99% of the problems I see from clients who use QB is that they don’t know the first thing about accounting and how to post entries into the system. The only problem I have with QB is that it does not allow for the closing of periods the way other accounting packages (such as Peachtree) have. However, QB does allow for a "closing date", which works something like the closing of a period in other software. — Kenneth Reid, CPP MasterType Computer Services Professional Accounting and Payroll Services 6312 N. Milwaukee Avenue Chicago, IL 60646-3786 (773) 792-1910 (877) 754-1913 (Outside Chicago) (773) 792-1950 – FAX www.mcschicago.com www.mastertypecomputerservices.com
Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double
entry, but it isn’t. One of – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the equity accounts is a plug. Jim
Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug.
Hallelujah and Amen!!! Someone finally agrees with me! {:-) FWK
I filtered out Strategic Center posts after they showed they had no idea what they were discussing. Now I only see posts from those who effectively agree, but waste time debating them. If we agree on this we may be able to get Usenet to stop their posts here. Any supporters for this?
No. I think he may be on to something, but is having a difficult time getting his point across. Although sometimes lengthy & seemingly rambling, there’s been nothing objectionable. Let’s hear what he has to say. FWK
How do you say that you that you filtered our posts while you said a week ago that you will use a kill filter to stop reading our posts? Isn’t that a contradiction? Or do you consider it otherwise?
In all fairness to the "tool", the software, whatever brand, GI = GO. The problem is not the software but the user. Any bookkeeping systems, hand journal – ledger or software only works if it is operated correctly. What I do not understand is why those people don’t get someone (accountant) to set their system up for them. Guess, their daddy never told them about an ounce of prevention …
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare. I had a new would-be client show up just before April 15 last year with some QB printouts and the familiar refrain, "It is all there". Among other things, the cash account was massively overdrawn and the payables had a huge debit balance. I told the lady that I would do her company’s tax return ONLY if she gave me a hand prepared set of numbers to work from for which she was prepared to take full responsibility. I’m becoming increasingly afraid to even look at some of these QB messes. If I work from a backup I have the entire electronic record, there is never enough time and money to fix them, and there is effectively no limit to the
potential liability. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim
QB, yup. First time I saw it I was initially amazed (as in shocked and disgusted) anyone would use it. Fifteen minutes later I figured it out what the motivation (not good motivation) was. It is kind of like heroin, makes you feel good, but ain’t no good for you. OTOH, I think QB is useful as an illustration of why a parliamentary democracy is inferior to a republic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. Jim
– * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia, * * the Seventh worst state for business, * * Ayn Rand was right *
Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug.
Yup, it’s the "You F’d up and here it is"…..AKA "Opening Balance Equity". What amazes me is the number of people with QB that think their financials are useful, correct, etc, when they have loans in and out of the Income statement, all the car payments go to "auto expense", and revenues include all moneys deposited to the bank account. One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com
One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare.
I had a new would-be client show up just before April 15 last year with some QB printouts and the familiar refrain, "It is all there". Among other things, the cash account was massively overdrawn and the payables had a huge debit balance. I told the lady that I would do her company’s tax return ONLY if she gave me a hand prepared set of numbers to work from for which she was prepared to take full responsibility. I’m becoming increasingly afraid to even look at some of these QB messes. If I work from a backup I have the entire electronic record, there is never enough time and money to fix them, and there is effectively no limit to the potential liability. Jim
One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare.
Now’s the time to show him a hammer and tell him you’re going to build a house! ;) — Brandon Sommerville CaseView Solutions Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post. Well that would make my posts the equal of yours. Aside: "We"? Who does this jerk think he’s fooling with his "we" crapola? I’m quite sure the "we" is real. I’m also sure that the Strategetic center folks are clueless with regards to "western culture", including western accounting. I’ve been hoping that we could get some real discussion going and all learn a little more about each other. So far that has not happened.
I filtered out Strategic Center posts after they showed they had no idea what they were discussing. Now I only see posts from those who effectively agree, but waste time debating them. If we agree on this we may be able to get Usenet to stop their posts here. Any supporters for this? How anyone from anywhere can look at the Enron / Andersen mess and then say that "The weakness of accounting is due to the double entry not accountants" is totally beyond me. Nevertheless, as a dedicated student of human behavior and beliefs, I’m not willing to conclude that they don’t believe it. Interesting. Jim Hudspeth
Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. Jim
I agree Quickbooks should Require Accounts for every entry, so they balance. However,, this is one of many Preferences you can and should set. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm
I filtered out Strategic Center posts after they showed they had no idea what they were discussing. Now I only see posts from those who effectively agree, but waste time debating them. If we agree on this we may be able to get Usenet to stop their posts here. Any supporters for this?
Not here. Further, I don’t understand your angst. While the Strategetic center folks clearly do not understand double entry accounting, they are putting voice to a little understood problem of massive importance – the search for an easy fix. We (USA) are addicted to easy fixes. We pop pills instead of working on diet and exercise. We buy toys for our kids instead of spending time with them. We build cities in wetlands and then try to fix the problems with disaster relief. The list is almost endless. Now some Egyptians show up here trying to sell us another easy fix and we get all "wrapped around the axle". Why is this Egyptian "snake oil" any worse that the countless other varieties that we deal with every day? Ultimately, the Strategetic center folks will either get off their present obsession and join us in some meaningful discussion on some other topic (my hope) or go away under their own power. Either way is better than for us to attempt to push them away. Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare. I had a new would-be client show up just before April 15 last year with some QB printouts and the familiar refrain, "It is all there". Among other things, the cash account was massively overdrawn and the payables had a huge debit balance. I told the lady that I would do her company’s tax return ONLY if she gave me a hand prepared set of numbers to work from for which she was prepared to take full responsibility. I’m becoming increasingly afraid to even look at some of these QB messes. If I work from a backup I have the entire electronic record, there is never enough time and money to fix them, and there is effectively no limit to the potential liability. Jim
Yes, if you do not work with them often, but it seems personal contact is the easiest thing we can sell. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm
Yup, it’s the "You F’d up and here it is"…..AKA "Opening Balance Equity". What amazes me is the number of people with QB that think their financials are useful, correct, etc, when they have loans in and out of the Income statement, all the car payments go to "auto expense", and revenues include all moneys deposited to the bank account. One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare.
I thought my clients were the only ones who did this. They also have booked draws as expense reimbursements. Fortunately, QB makes it easy to change. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm
I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. I agree Quickbooks should Require Accounts for every entry, so they balance. However,, this is one of many Preferences you can and should set.
I’m certainly not holding myself out as a QB expert, however it is my understanding that "Opening Balance Equity" is an integral part of the program – not a preference. To the best of my knowledge, it is not possible to setup QB in such a way that it becomes a true double entry system. Jim Hudspeth, CPA
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I filtered out Strategic Center posts after they showed they had no idea what they were discussing. Now I only see posts from those who effectively agree, but waste time debating them. If we agree on this we may be able to get Usenet to stop their posts here. Any supporters for this? Not here. Further, I don’t understand your angst. While the Strategetic center folks clearly do not understand double entry accounting, they are putting voice to a little understood problem of massive importance – the search for an easy fix. We (USA) are addicted to easy fixes. We pop pills instead of working on diet and exercise. We buy toys for our kids instead of spending time with them. We build cities in wetlands and then try to fix the problems with disaster relief. The list is almost endless. Now some Egyptians show up here trying to sell us another easy fix and we get all "wrapped around the axle". Why is this Egyptian "snake oil" any worse that the countless other varieties that we deal with every day? Ultimately, the Strategetic center folks will either get off their present obsession and join us in some meaningful discussion on some other topic (my hope) or go away under their own power. Either way is better than for us to attempt to push them away.
There in another unit the exponential increase of which during the last 3 to 4 centuries is a basic economic factor many prefer to ignore: human population units Cultures and countries investing primarily in population growth (geographically mostly in the south) sometimes try to find reasons why the resources (expressed in units) per human population unit result in a lower ratio than in areas (Europe currently has the lowest population growth of all continents) investing relatively more in material goods. By migration areas with a high population production surplus currently try to export to those with meagre growth. Rather than making a moral or self-centered judgement on cultural superiority (criteria ?), we might rather use double-entry accounting tools including both monetary and non-monetary units to show the trade-offs involved in resource allocation. And by remembering: the sum of all wishes expressed in units of consumables vastly exceeds the sum of all resources likewise expressed in units. Relative scarcity is part of the definition of the human condition. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.
There in another unit the exponential increase of which during the last 3 to 4 centuries is a basic economic factor many prefer to ignore: human population units
<snip Rather than making a moral or self-centered judgement on cultural superiority (criteria ?), we might rather use double-entry accounting tools including both monetary and non-monetary units to show the trade-offs involved in resource allocation.
Certainly an interesting point of view. I need to think about this before I comment. Jim
Some writers of the accounting theory think that there are basic ideas that accompanied the accounting conception during its development , these ideas and basic rules are summarized as follows: I-The organization’s manager was obligated to present reports to the investors which include the organization’s activity .These reports were represented in a budget in the form of periodical publications that led to record the accounting data in books to present them to the investors. The idea of recording began in the ancient history , during the Islamic age and in the ancient civilizations like Papel, Ashore and Pharos . It is currently named the process of accessing accounting data . 2-The need to audit data to verify their correctness arise. Some people related it to the human element weakness . It is known currently as the internal auditing and the external auditing verification of the correctness of the accounting data . In fact the need to audit data is due to the weakness of the double entry system in its mechanical performance and continuous verification to its assets and their resources while the human element is not the reason as it created the computer system which covers that weakness .The debit and credit system is inable to cover the accounting operation with all its sides . Even using auditing in the double entry system does not cover all these goals . 3-To provide the right basis for the management to make the necessary decisions for the organization’s future there has to be analyses with the accounting data to make the appropriate decisions .In the double entry system,the main source of analyzing data was the credit and debit concept which analyzes these data and form information in reports to make decision ,but it is inable to analyze the accounting operation itself the right analysis,it is also inable to explain the unit and show it in reports so it depended on explanation which is not related to money. In conclusion ,there are no rules that imposed themselves during the development of accountancy in modern ages,which is estimated by seven hundred years,but modern scientific means imposed themselves on the development of accountancy and showed its defects. In fact programmers and practical accountants tried to develop the accountancy science even if they have to ignore some traditional accounting rules.
<<SNIP The weakness of accounting is due to the intrusion of people, such as yourself, that don’t know the first thing about accounting. easy2000
Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post.
Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post.
Well that would make my posts the equal of yours. Aside: "We"? Who does this jerk think he’s fooling with his "we" crapola? easy2000
Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post. Well that would make my posts the equal of yours. Aside: "We"? Who does this jerk think he’s fooling with his "we" crapola?
I’m quite sure the "we" is real. I’m also sure that the Strategetic center folks are clueless with regards to "western culture", including western accounting. I’ve been hoping that we could get some real discussion going and all learn a little more about each other. So far that has not happened. How anyone from anywhere can look at the Enron / Andersen mess and then say that "The weakness of accounting is due to the double entry not accountants" is totally beyond me. Nevertheless, as a dedicated student of human behavior and beliefs, I’m not willing to conclude that they don’t believe it. Interesting. Jim Hudspeth
Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. A typical example: The book-keeper, if appropriate, enters an expense voucher into both systems, financial and cost, but only enters a debit in the cost account (so designed by the IT people) without a corresponding credit. You can imagine the consternation of the dumbfounded designers and programmers (non accountants) when they were (by definition) unable to demonstrate how to close the cost accounting cycle and reconcile it with the financial accounting results. My question was simple and stupid: where is the credit entry in the cost accounting system? In the financial accounts, one debits expense and credits accounts payable. Obviously there are occasions when cost does not equal expense, making the requirement of strict double-entries in the cost accounting cycle even more obvious. But the IT people wanted to move back 700 years to single entry accounting. Let’s remember that from Sumerian times 10,000 years ago with single-entry book-keeping and detailed inventories, it took humanity over 9,000 years until Luca Paccioli discovered the double-entry system. Apparently it may still take some time until many even well educated humans really grasp the elegance, genius and usefulness of double-entry accounting. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Marxist assassination bomb Nazi $400 million in gold bullion Treasury
Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting.
I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. Jim
Fr. Luca Pacioli, paper on accounting was written in 1494, almost 200 years before Newton recognized that the universe works the same way. Newton 1642 – 1727, third law is: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." And that applies to cost accounting . . . of all flavours. Or what’s a varation for? 
=) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. A typical example: The book-keeper, if appropriate, enters an expense voucher into both systems, financial and cost, but only enters a debit in the cost account (so designed by the IT people) without a corresponding credit. You can imagine the consternation of the dumbfounded designers and programmers (non accountants) when they were (by definition) unable to demonstrate how to close the cost accounting cycle and reconcile it with the financial accounting results. My question was simple and stupid: where is the credit entry in the cost accounting system? In the financial accounts, one debits expense and credits accounts payable. Obviously there are occasions when cost does not equal expense, making the requirement of strict double-entries in the cost accounting cycle even more obvious. But the IT people wanted to move back 700 years to single entry accounting. Let’s remember that from Sumerian times 10,000 years ago with single-entry book-keeping and detailed inventories, it took humanity over 9,000 years until Luca Paccioli discovered the double-entry system. Apparently it may still take some time until many even well educated humans really grasp the elegance, genius and usefulness of double-entry accounting. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Marxist assassination bomb Nazi $400 million in gold bullion
Treasury
Hi Paul! Relax. You will get all kinds of bad advice from Accounting Firms. The basic problem is they only want to deal with software that they are familiar with. Usually that means Bedford or it’s Windows version, Simply Acctg. or for the bigger guys, AccPac. I have never heard of Easy Acctg.. Perhaps you mean DacEasy? Anyway, I have seen, many times, Acctg. firms recommend Bedford or Simply Acctg. to many businesses where it was not well suited to that business’ requirements. Accountants get hung up on the General Ledger aspects to the exclusion of other day to day vital functions like Order Entry, Sales Analysis, Manufacturing, etc.. Tell your customer that he might be wise to look for another Accountant who can see beyond his/her narrow view of the world and will allow that there could just possibly be an Acctg. Software better suited to that particular business than just what the Accountant is familiar with. My experience has taught me that an Accountant is generally NOT the best person to ask about accounting software. They tend to have a rather myopic view of things. By the way, the Accountant in question wouldn’t be in Rossland by chance? Best of Luck! Peter McGowan
Opps I meant Simply Accounting Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would you see Easy Accounting as mud free place in your analogy or is it just another hole as deep but built differently? Paul Picard I once saw a Steve McQueen movie titled "The Reavers". The movie was set in the South in the days before paved roads. In a particularly memorable scene, Steve and a buddy were heading for a little action in Memphis in a Stutz Bearcat. They topped a hill at high speed and landed squarely in the middle of a huge mudhole. Almost immediately a farmer with a team of horses appeared out of nowhere and offered to pull the boys out – for a fee of course. The next scene showed Steve and his buddy heading over the next hill, as the farmer counted his money, hitched his horses to a nearby water wagon, and prepared to add a few barrels of water to the mudhole. When I hear about accountants recommending Quickbooks I keep seeing the image of that farmer and his waterwagon. We are told that Quickbooks is a simple program, geared toward non-accountants. It isn’t. For anything beyond the most basic functions, Quickbooks requires a significant level of knowledge and skill. If that knowledge and skill are not applied up front, someone has an expensive mess. A number of my peers have told me, some with a straight face, that Quickbooks is wonderful; an annuity for accountants. They are right. It is clearly a great seller, and it certainly does generate work for accountants. Personally, I would rather my clients spent more on software and software installation on the front end and less with me on the tail end. Nevertheless, if they insist of getting in the mudhole, I will show up with the horses and pull them out. I cannot, however, bring myself to add more water to the mudhole. Jim Hudspeth, CPA A silly notion: Who is the "customer" – the client or the Accounting firm. I am not aware of any fundamental accounting reason why Quickbooks is not "accountant" approved. It is a simple program, geared towards non-accountants. An accounting (firm) is hired generally to audit, review, or prepare financial statements. The software selected may help them if its compatible, easily audited etc. It is not however the key criteria for selecting the package. IMHO, they may have input into the selection of software I choose, but it is not their decision. My advice to your client is choose the most approriate software for your business. By the way, I am aware of some regional firms that recommend Quickbooks. Do accounting firms generally accept that their customers do their accounting with Quickbooks? Here in the Kootenays (BC) the only program that they teach at the local college is (not so) Easy Accounting. I even had a local accounting firm saying that they don’t want to have anything to do with Quickbook they want their customers to use Easy Accounting. I am a computer consultant and had recommended Quickbook after studying both packages and checking with one major accounting firm to make sure that it was compatible with their way of doing business. Now I look silly to learn that my customer was told to switch to Easy Accounting by his accountant and that the data entry clerk that he wanted to hire deals only with Easy Accounting??? Is this a common situation or is it just typical an out of the mainstream isolated community. Regards Paul Picard Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Would you see Easy Accounting as mud free place in your analogy or is it just another hole as deep but built differently? Paul Picard
Paul, I don’t know because I am not familiar with Easy Accounting. My point has to with a philosophy; an approach to system design. It has very little to do with any particular piece of software. The traditional way to design / select an accounting system is a fairly involved process. It involves analysis of needs, discussions with participants and planning. It is time consuming, expensive and hard work. Various vendors, Intuit being the most successful, have attempted to replace analysis, discussion and planning with hype, spin, and wishful thinking. The result has been what any competent system designer would have predicted; lots of people with big problems. My advice to any client is to "look before you leap". Take the time to realistically assess the requirements before committing to any particular piece of software. Then do it right the first time. That almost always means hiring someone with significant experience specific to the program to guide the installation. My problem with Quickbooks has to do with the way it is sold – not with the program itself. Accounting is not simple. It cannot be made simple. Any assertion by anyone that a piece of software will make accounting simple is simply wrong. Jim Hudspeth, CPA Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
QuickBooks can do a lot for very little money (compared to the cost of other accounting programs). So, suggesting QuickBooks was probably good advice that you gave to your client. But QuickBooks doesn’t teach accounting. By that, I mean that it doesn’t really show you how to set a "chart of accounts", where certain income and expense items should be posted, etc. So, anyone who doesn’t understand accounting (like me) is not going to know how to set up QuickBooks or any other accounting program. We did it the hard way. We screwed everything up first, then asked for help. If I knew then what I know now, I would have located an accountant in our area who knew QuickBooks and had them help us do the set up and explain where and how we should be entering the data. The setup and initial training may only take a few hours and there are accounting people who will do that with you for about $45 to $60 per hour (U.S.) It seems odd to me that the accounting firm and data entry person your client wanted to use could not adapt themselves to use QuickBooks. But, there are plenty of firms and people who are familiar with QuickBooks. One source is to go to http://quickbooks.com and look up their list of QuickBooks Professional Advisors for your area. You’ll probably hear from some of those people via this newsgroup, but there are certainly some accounting firms listed in your local telephone directory who will be familiar with QuickBooks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do accounting firms generally accept that their customers do their accounting with Quickbooks? Here in the Kootenays (BC) the only program that they teach at the local college is (not so) Easy Accounting. I even had a local accounting firm saying that they don’t want to have anything to do with Quickbook they want their customers to use Easy Accounting. I am a computer consultant and had recommended Quickbook after studying both packages and checking with one major accounting firm to make sure that it was compatible with their way of doing business. Now I look silly to learn that my customer was told to switch to Easy Accounting by his accountant and that the data entry clerk that he wanted to hire deals only with Easy Accounting??? Is this a common situation or is it just typical an out of the mainstream isolated community. Regards Paul Picard
I once saw a Steve McQueen movie titled "The Reavers". The movie was set in the South in the days before paved roads. In a particularly memorable scene, Steve and a buddy were heading for a little action in Memphis in a Stutz Bearcat. They topped a hill at high speed and landed squarely in the middle of a huge mudhole. Almost immediately a farmer with a team of horses appeared out of nowhere and offered to pull the boys out – for a fee of course. The next scene showed Steve and his buddy heading over the next hill, as the farmer counted his money, hitched his horses to a nearby water wagon, and prepared to add a few barrels of water to the mudhole. When I hear about accountants recommending Quickbooks I keep seeing the image of that farmer and his waterwagon. We are told that Quickbooks is a simple program, geared toward non-accountants. It isn’t. For anything beyond the most basic functions, Quickbooks requires a significant level of knowledge and skill. If that knowledge and skill are not applied up front, someone has an expensive mess. A number of my peers have told me, some with a straight face, that Quickbooks is wonderful; an annuity for accountants. They are right. It is clearly a great seller, and it certainly does generate work for accountants. Personally, I would rather my clients spent more on software and software installation on the front end and less with me on the tail end. Nevertheless, if they insist of getting in the mudhole, I will show up with the horses and pull them out. I cannot, however, bring myself to add more water to the mudhole. Jim Hudspeth, CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A silly notion: Who is the "customer" – the client or the Accounting firm. I am not aware of any fundamental accounting reason why Quickbooks is not "accountant" approved. It is a simple program, geared towards non-accountants. An accounting (firm) is hired generally to audit, review, or prepare financial statements. The software selected may help them if its compatible, easily audited etc. It is not however the key criteria for selecting the package. IMHO, they may have input into the selection of software I choose, but it is not their decision. My advice to your client is choose the most approriate software for your business. By the way, I am aware of some regional firms that recommend Quickbooks. Do accounting firms generally accept that their customers do their accounting with Quickbooks? Here in the Kootenays (BC) the only program that they teach at the local college is (not so) Easy Accounting. I even had a local accounting firm saying that they don’t want to have anything to do with Quickbook they want their customers to use Easy Accounting. I am a computer consultant and had recommended Quickbook after studying both packages and checking with one major accounting firm to make sure that it was compatible with their way of doing business. Now I look silly to learn that my customer was told to switch to Easy Accounting by his accountant and that the data entry clerk that he wanted to hire deals only with Easy Accounting??? Is this a common situation or is it just typical an out of the mainstream isolated community. Regards Paul Picard
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Would you see Easy Accounting as mud free place in your analogy or is it just another hole as deep but built differently? Paul Picard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I once saw a Steve McQueen movie titled "The Reavers". The movie was set in the South in the days before paved roads. In a particularly memorable scene, Steve and a buddy were heading for a little action in Memphis in a Stutz Bearcat. They topped a hill at high speed and landed squarely in the middle of a huge mudhole. Almost immediately a farmer with a team of horses appeared out of nowhere and offered to pull the boys out – for a fee of course. The next scene showed Steve and his buddy heading over the next hill, as the farmer counted his money, hitched his horses to a nearby water wagon, and prepared to add a few barrels of water to the mudhole. When I hear about accountants recommending Quickbooks I keep seeing the image of that farmer and his waterwagon. We are told that Quickbooks is a simple program, geared toward non-accountants. It isn’t. For anything beyond the most basic functions, Quickbooks requires a significant level of knowledge and skill. If that knowledge and skill are not applied up front, someone has an expensive mess. A number of my peers have told me, some with a straight face, that Quickbooks is wonderful; an annuity for accountants. They are right. It is clearly a great seller, and it certainly does generate work for accountants. Personally, I would rather my clients spent more on software and software installation on the front end and less with me on the tail end. Nevertheless, if they insist of getting in the mudhole, I will show up with the horses and pull them out. I cannot, however, bring myself to add more water to the mudhole. Jim Hudspeth, CPA A silly notion: Who is the "customer" – the client or the Accounting firm. I am not aware of any fundamental accounting reason why Quickbooks is not "accountant" approved. It is a simple program, geared towards non-accountants. An accounting (firm) is hired generally to audit, review, or prepare financial statements. The software selected may help them if its compatible, easily audited etc. It is not however the key criteria for selecting the package. IMHO, they may have input into the selection of software I choose, but it is not their decision. My advice to your client is choose the most approriate software for your business. By the way, I am aware of some regional firms that recommend Quickbooks. Do accounting firms generally accept that their customers do their accounting with Quickbooks? Here in the Kootenays (BC) the only program that they teach at the local college is (not so) Easy Accounting. I even had a local accounting firm saying that they don’t want to have anything to do with Quickbook they want their customers to use Easy Accounting. I am a computer consultant and had recommended Quickbook after studying both packages and checking with one major accounting firm to make sure that it was compatible with their way of doing business. Now I look silly to learn that my customer was told to switch to Easy Accounting by his accountant and that the data entry clerk that he wanted to hire deals only with Easy Accounting??? Is this a common situation or is it just typical an out of the mainstream isolated community. Regards Paul Picard Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Do accounting firms generally accept that their customers do their accounting with Quickbooks? Here in the Kootenays (BC) the only program that they teach at the local college is (not so) Easy Accounting. I even had a local accounting firm saying that they don’t want to have anything to do with Quickbook they want their customers to use Easy Accounting. I am a computer consultant and had recommended Quickbook after studying both packages and checking with one major accounting firm to make sure that it was compatible with their way of doing business. Now I look silly to learn that my customer was told to switch to Easy Accounting by his accountant and that the data entry clerk that he wanted to hire deals only with Easy Accounting??? Is this a common situation or is it just typical an out of the mainstream isolated community. Regards Paul Picard
A silly notion: Who is the "customer" – the client or the Accounting firm. I am not aware of any fundamental accounting reason why Quickbooks is not "accountant" approved. It is a simple program, geared towards non-accountants. An accounting (firm) is hired generally to audit, review, or prepare financial statements. The software selected may help them if its compatible, easily audited etc. It is not however the key criteria for selecting the package. IMHO, they may have input into the selection of software I choose, but it is not their decision. My advice to your client is choose the most approriate software for your business. By the way, I am aware of some regional firms that recommend Quickbooks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do accounting firms generally accept that their customers do their accounting with Quickbooks? Here in the Kootenays (BC) the only program that they teach at the local college is (not so) Easy Accounting. I even had a local accounting firm saying that they don’t want to have anything to do with Quickbook they want their customers to use Easy Accounting. I am a computer consultant and had recommended Quickbook after studying both packages and checking with one major accounting firm to make sure that it was compatible with their way of doing business. Now I look silly to learn that my customer was told to switch to Easy Accounting by his accountant and that the data entry clerk that he wanted to hire deals only with Easy Accounting??? Is this a common situation or is it just typical an out of the mainstream isolated community. Regards Paul Picard
Method Information Systems has released their rules-based enterprise system. It is e-commerce / web-enabled.
Huh? This "Method Information Systems" cannot be found in Altavista, Yahoo, or Infoseek. Is this a hoax? System requires MS SQL7.0. Microsoft is claiming that SQL7.0 installations cost 1/16 as much as comparable Oracle installations. http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1999/03-16sql.htm
HuH? This is a longwinded diatribe about huge Oracle databases costing over $10 million and has NOTHING to do with Web-Based Accounting systems. Take an online tour. http://www.methodfinancial.com/cpaccess/CPAccessInfo.htm Respectfully, – Carl Dick
Carl, the online tour doesn’t have anything to do with "Method Information Systems" in the first few screens. It just feeds into your needs analysis and marketing part of your website. Your post is a troll. If you’re going to post this type of message, at least provide the url of "Method Information Systems" Thanks. TOdd
Not a hoax. They are currently changing from "Method Financial" to "Method Information Systems". – Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Method Information Systems has released their rules-based enterprise system. It is e-commerce / web-enabled. Huh? This "Method Information Systems" cannot be found in Altavista, Yahoo, or Infoseek. Is this a hoax? System requires MS SQL7.0. Microsoft is claiming that SQL7.0 installations cost 1/16 as much as comparable Oracle installations. http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1999/03-16sql.htm HuH? This is a longwinded diatribe about huge Oracle databases costing over $10 million and has NOTHING to do with Web-Based Accounting systems. Take an online tour. http://www.methodfinancial.com/cpaccess/CPAccessInfo.htm Respectfully, – Carl Dick Carl, the online tour doesn’t have anything to do with "Method Information Systems" in the first few screens. It just feeds into your needs analysis and marketing part of your website. Your post is a troll. If you’re going to post this type of message, at least provide the url of "Method Information Systems" Thanks. TOdd
Todd. you might want to take a look at our system: http://www.journyx.com/wts Fully web-based, free for 5 users and less It only does the time collection front-end piece, but is easy to integrate with virtually any accounting software for folks who care about tracking time for payroll, billing, or project management, and should go well with any truly web-based accounting package. VERY useful when you have travelling workers or virtual workers, who aren’t sitting at the same desk all day long. BTW, let us know when/if you find a good web-based accounting package. We’d be interested too. Thanks. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Take an online tour. http://www.methodfinancial.com/cpaccess/CPAccessInfo.htm Respectfully, – Carl Dick Carl, the online tour doesn’t have anything to do with "Method Information Systems" in the first few screens. It just feeds into your needs analysis and marketing part of your website. Your post is a troll. If you’re going to post this type of message, at least provide the url of "Method Information Systems" Thanks. TOdd
Method Information Systems has released their rules-based enterprise system. It is e-commerce / web-enabled. System requires MS SQL7.0. Microsoft is claiming that SQL7.0 installations cost 1/16 as much as comparable Oracle installations. http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1999/03-16sql.htm Take an online tour. http://www.methodfinancial.com/cpaccess/CPAccessInfo.htm Respectfully, - Carl Dick 949-261-2694 www.cpaccess.com – Carl Dick 949-261-2694 800-997-7944 www.cpaccess.com
Gary please make the count 3 Thanks BLewis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nancy I have offered to post here the ‘TRICK’ to getting Texas reports out of QB. I said that if I was asked by 20 Texans I would post it. So far I have only 2 requests. Gary
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary please make the count 3 Thanks BLewis Nancy I have offered to post here the ‘TRICK’ to getting Texas reports out of QB. I said that if I was asked by 20 Texans I would post it. So far I have only 2 requests. Gary
B Lewis The Count is now 3 Gary
I hope to have 15 to 25 customers with small businesses. I would be doing some payroll, general ledger and many reports and quarterlies. I need a program that will allow many companies and so on, but can’t afford a program like Mas90 that I used at the CPA I worked for – out of my range financially. Would Quickbooks Pro 5 or Peachtree 5 for Windows 95 do the job? …..May I only be a figment of your imagination……
I hope to have 15 to 25 customers with small businesses. I would be doing some payroll, general ledger and many reports and quarterlies. I need a program that will allow many companies and so on, but can’t afford a program like Mas90 that I used at the CPA I worked for – out of my range financially. Would Quickbooks Pro 5 or Peachtree 5 for Windows 95 do the job? …..May I only be a figment of your imagination……
I am in this business – and I use two programs. Peachtree Complete for DOS v10. And Quickbooks for windows. I prefer PT for my clients that get me good information the 1st time. If it is a client that is really bad about getting me info, or I have a lot of questions, I use QB. I much prefer the payroll module in PT. But the QB payroll has advantages, too, except that I am in Texas & it doesn’t do state report. GOOD LUCK! If you see someone without a smile, give them one of yours!"
Nancy I have offered to post here the ‘TRICK’ to getting Texas reports out of QB. I said that if I was asked by 20 Texans I would post it. So far I have only 2 requests. Gary
Figment I saw your message on the Internet. You were looking for an accounting package for your company. I would like to tell you about our products Painless Accounting and Painless Payroll. Here is our web site, you can down load a free trial version of the software, read some reviews, and see some testimonials from some of our customers. http://www.computek.net/public/kpierce/ If you are interested in downloading a demo of the software please follow these steps. 1. Click on Painless Accounting 7.6 Installation Disk. 2. Click on Painless Accounting/Payroll Runtime Disk 3. Make a temporary directory, and copy Disk1.Exe, Disk2.Exe into that directory. 4. Open or click on Disk1.Exe, then Disk2.Exe 5. Run the Install Program. 6. And you should be ready to use the trail version that you downloaded. Please contact me if you have any questions I hope to hear from you soon. Jim Ness Voice: (507) 386-1334
I am vacationing in Gaspe, Que. during the next few weeks, and I would like to do some fly fishing. Can anyone suggest possible locations or offer other advice?
MWI am vacationing in Gaspe, Que. during the next few weeks, and I MWwould like to do some fly fishing. Can anyone suggest possible MWlocations or offer other advice? I ventured blindly into that region two years ago and had a nightmarish experience due to lack of preperation and research. The rivers are fantastic, the salmon extrordinary, and the local residents very friendly. However. . . The regulations concerning fishing in Gaspe, Quebec are very complicated and seriously enforced to protect the salmon fishery. Violation of the regulations means seizure of all fishing tackle, large fines, and seizure of ANY vehicle used to transport the violator to the scene of the crime (car, trailer, boat, plane) so be very carefull. In an area with 50 percent unemployment, wardens do everything possible to keep their jobs! There are many great rivers in zone 1 (Gaspe) but access to them is done by lottery each spring. Forget getting a salmon license for 1993, and concentrate on trout and char fishing in Parks Canada areas or private access lakes controlled by local ZECs (long story). Also note that local fish and game officials have french as their first, and sometimes only language, so you should call first or stick to federally run parks where all employees are bilingual and fishing regulations are different from the rest of the region. Here are some numbers you should contact before arriving, so that you will not have overly high expectations: Government of Canada For federal information on tourism in Quebec call 1-800-363-7777 or 1-514-873-2015. They can direct you only to federally controlled lands in the Gaspe. Gouvernment du Quebec For provincially supplied info on fishing, contact the MLCP (Ministry of leisure, hunting and fishing) at the following numbers. Note that at some regional locations you may have to specifically ask the person to speak english, as they are not allowed to do so until the moment you ask the question (long story). Montreal (english info gaurenteed) 1-514-374-2417 Gaspe (probably english) 1-418-368-3444 New Richmond (probably english) 1-418-392-4436 Matane (maybe) 1-418-566-2618 Despite all my gloom and doom, visiting the Gaspe is a joy, and fishing in the Gaspe region is such a superb experience that every year I enter the lottery hoping for a chance to fish the best holes on the best rivers. Regards, Bob Beaupre Documents Plus Beaconsfield, Quebec * DeLuxe2 1.26b #7029 * Was Roy Rodgers a Trigger Happy Cowboy? —- XON/XOFF Information Service | Sales and service of hardware a division of XON/XOFF Computer Solutions | & software for all OS’s. Montreal, Canada | RealWorld Accounting Software