In article <2c627c56.0409231444.6cb14…@posting.google.com>, bobsbigbo…@excite.com (Mr. Williams) wrote: >If you, a loved one or any one you know has been diagnosed as >schizophrenic etc. perhaps you should read this article by Carole >Smith.
What a wretched and peevish kook are you. >Posted by >Mr. and Mrs. Smith >(Thanks to Bob and Ingemar)
You are welcome bobsbigboy41 to bob and ingemar. >On the Need for New Criteria of Diagnosis of Psychosis in the Light of >Mind Invasive Technology >Carole Smith
Usenet is the best argument for legalizing lobotomies. — Lady Chatterly "Bot needs more sources." — Dr.Postman
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Tin-foil%20hat http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000609.html Lead shielding !
I have 80 full screen scrolls needed to reach the end of the originating post in this thread. Its the size of a Doctoroial thesis. It totally flabbergasted me after expending so much time with it to see I had only just begun to delve into its depths up around the thirty full screen scrolls level. Screw it. I always try to give a warning on posts or e-mails if its going to be long. http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit
"Mr. Williams" <bobsbigbo…@excite.com> wrote in message
news:2c627c56.0409231444.6cb1430f@posting.google.com… > If you, a loved one or any one you know has been diagnosed as > schizophrenic etc. perhaps you should read this article by Carole > Smith. > Posted by > Mr. and Mrs. Smith > (Thanks to Bob and Ingemar) > On the Need for New Criteria of Diagnosis of Psychosis in the Light of > Mind Invasive Technology > Carole Smith
Now THATS schizophrenia! WOW! Imagine what they could have accomplished if they had been working at a job. At least theyde have a paycheck. Troop
If you, a loved one or any one you know has been diagnosed as schizophrenic etc. perhaps you should read this article by Carole Smith. Posted by Mr. and Mrs. Smith (Thanks to Bob and Ingemar) On the Need for New Criteria of Diagnosis of Psychosis in the Light of Mind Invasive Technology Carole Smith ————————————————————————— —– For those of us who were trained in a psychoanalytical approach to the patient which was characterised as patient centred, and which acknowledged that the effort to understand the world of the other person entailed an awareness that the treatment was essentially one of mutuality and trust, the American Psychiatry Association’s Diagnostic Criteria for Schizotypal personality was always a cause for alarm. The Third Edition (1987) of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) required that there be at least four of the characteristics set out for a diagnosis of schizophrenia, and an approved selection of four could be: magical thinking, telepathy or sixth sense; limited social contact; odd speech; and over-sensitivity to criticism. By 1994, the required number of qualifying characteristics were reduced to two or more, including, say, hallucinations and
Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children." It is not, as those who make the statement know very well. It’s owed to the mothers of the children. However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —
Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children." It is not, as those who make the statement know very well. It’s owed to the mothers of the children. However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.
The other usual lie is in this article too – Claiming how the CS program "collected" millions of dollars. Most of that money is paid voluntarily by fathers and the CS program does have to lift a finger to "collect" any of it. It’s total garbage for any state CS program, supported by federal laws mandating employer garnishment orders, to take credit for actions they never do.
This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony. Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.
I’ve heard of cases where the moment a guy gets out of jail the DA slaps him with a felony non-payment of child support charge. Of course, the idea that non-payment of a debt should be a felony is ridiculous and overreaching. Criminalizing historically non-criminal conduct is a recent fetish of legislatures across the country. Check out www.overcriminalized.com.
Nebraska is 10 years statute of limitations, Iowa has no statute of limitations….and Iowa is one of the BIG offenders of abusing men.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. T
I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. It’s like this Tiffany… 1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200. But the "get out of jail free" card does work. Wish I had one of those… California has a ‘three strikes’ law. The first two have to be violent felonies, but the third does not have to be violent. Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent, also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form. I mean, c’mon, if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult. If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions, it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’ — Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?
If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions, it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’
It could just as easily be felony conviction of "failure to pay" one’s CS…
LMAO! It is NEVER about the kids! It is about politics. There has been some form of support enforcement program available for YEARS. So how is it that the government officials who ARE RESPONSIBLE for enforcing the support orders in the first place ever let the arrearage in this case reach more than $43,000??? Incompetance, that’s how! So now to cover their incompetence, they point the finger at "dead-beat dad’s:"! Quite correct, if the man is in Jail, then he wont be able to pay ANYTHING. and, as usual, the children will suffer – right along with the dad – while some politician cites "vicotry" ‘in the best interests of the child". Given the other stories about ‘lost" child support funds, I suspect that all the government is doing is using this as a cash grab. the money will eventually be collected, but the system will "mysteriously" lose the money somehow! So, again, the father suffers, and the children suffer. What a load of crap. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back. ~Author Unknown
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy. I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments. This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony. Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.
Oh yeah, that is probaly a right assumption. I thought the habitual thing was CS related, not just over all criminal record. My bad. lol
"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ?????
I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy. I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments. This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony. Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies. How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?
State laws vary in making that determination. Most have laws keeping the CS judgement active for a 7-10 year period. After that the CS judgment can be re-upped for an additional 7-10 year period. So, in theory, the state can continue to go after the obligor forever.
I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. It’s like this Tiffany… 1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200. But the "get out of jail free" card does work. Wish I had one of those…
California has a ‘three strikes’ law. The first two have to be violent felonies, but the third does not have to be violent. Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent, also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form. I mean, c’mon, if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult. — Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <big snip So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights? How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations? Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him? "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat. Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" . The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined. I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha.
It’s like this Tiffany… 1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200. But the "get out of jail free" card does work. Wish I had one of those…
Depends on what state you’re in. Some don’t allow for collection of arrearages afert three years…some 20, some, as Dusty said, no limit.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T As I understand it.. there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS. So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <big snip So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights? How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations? Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him? "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat. Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" . The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.
I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. T
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here. A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement. It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS. The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help. The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment. My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount? Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements? If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt. But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension. I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father. The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying. I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state. It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids. Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case. If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights? How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations? Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him? "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?
It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T
There is probably a lot in play that isn’t being said here. He may have had an order he was paying on ( same here 1987 order…lot of confusion involved with changes in custody back and forth ), she contacts CSE or CSRU and they get involved ( automatically, the amounts seem to take on astronomical proportions) with the state suddenly impuning wages that may or may not exist and may or may not ( but most likely ) inflate those wages, add on what the state says has been rendered to CP for support services, WIC, HHS services for food, health, dental, legal ( and it keeps adding ), plus interest ( Iowa tags on an additional 10% annually to arrearages ). It is very possible this poor schmuck has nothing, never had anything, and now he never will. CSRU can hound you to the grave unless you can derail them. In my case, I have been denied services by Legal Aid ( although Iowa did give me an attorney that quit one day before the initial court hearing, leaving me to represent myself ), Volunteer Lawyers have refused assistance ( lawyers are required to do so much Pro Bono work annually, I have been told ) because it is an interstate case, Iowa refuses to relinquish any claims to jurisdiction, even though I have never been a resident of Iowa, the divorce was not in Iowa, and no one ( not the ex or the children ) reside in Iowa any longer….and they are in violation of 28 USC 1738A ( also known as the "Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act" ). So, in short, they get to change the rules, reinterpret law to suit their purpose, and they will do everything ( including breaking laws and rules ) to keep the man paying. I have YET to see a single mother be pursued in this fashion, making this a very gender based ( biased, prejudiced ) system. If you can find ANY enforcements of this sort and extreme on record being done against a woman, I’d like to see it. Anyone? It ain’t just Michigan, and it ain’t just the guys making in the new reports. This stuff is happening every day, and from my observation ( jaded as it is ), it is usually the guys that have paid or have made the effort that are being reamed the worst. The true "deadbeats" are seldom ever heard from.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came away with a different take on what is going on here. A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement. It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS. The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help. The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment. My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount? Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements? If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt. But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.
Iowa has no statute of limitations, and so may Michigan. They can harass a man to his grave and take anything of value left in his estate at his death to satisfy their liens, levies, and arrearages.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T
<big snip So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights? How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations? Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him? "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat. Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" . The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.
"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T
As I understand it.. there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS. So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here. A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement. It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS. The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help. The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment. My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount? Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements? If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt. But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension. I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father. The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying. I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state. It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids. Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case. If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures.
Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights? How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations? Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?
"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender." – ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here. A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement. It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS. The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help. The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment. My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount? Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements? If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt. But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website?
"McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point.
I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension. I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father. The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying. I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state. It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids. Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same
If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case. If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights? How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations? Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?
Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —
Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart
Todd Dick Mac? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler.
So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said.
"It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court.
Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back. ~Author Unknown
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here. A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement. It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS. The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help. The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment. My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount? Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements? If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt. But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.
Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids. Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same T
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed.
I came away with a different take on what is going on here. A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement. It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS. The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help. The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment. My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount? Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements? If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt. But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay? At least the full amount owed, of course. I know, they cover their asses below. The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…" Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know? Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time. However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all. How would jail time help anybody? I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time. How does that help them? It is about the kids, right?
LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. T
Hey Gang, The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room. The requirements are: – Unit will cover the length and height of a wall (~14′ long and 13′ tall). – The bottom 30" or so will have cabinets, drawers, etc. – The upper section (from 30" to 13′) will be bookshelves. They will hold a large number of heave books. – The back of the bookshelf area will be as open as possible (to see the wall). – Wood will be Maple (to match the kitchen cabinets) or maybe cherry (to match the floors). Some other type of hardwood would probably also work, but not oak. So, I’m thinking that I will either use plywood cut into strips or 1×12 hardwood boards. I don’t have the equipment or time to start with rough-sawn on this one. I’ll screw/glue some 1×2’s on the bottom rear of the shelves to support them and prevent them from sagging along the span. These will also be screwed through the sheet rock to the wall studs. If I use plywood then I’ll probably use 1×2 of hardwood on the front faces of the shelves to hide the plywood edge. This will also give it some more rigidity. A few things I haven’t figured out: 1) I can’t seem to find plywood longer than 8′. The bookshelf unit will be at least 10′ high. So there would need to be a seam at some point. Is there a good way to join the lenghts of plywood together? And make it look good? Maybe put some moulding to cover the joint? 2) Is plywood a bad idea for this? If I used solid wood then I can probably get away with not doing the 1×2 pieces to cover the fronts of the boards, which, IMO will look better and save time. Any other tips for this project? I’ve done some Google searching but haven’t found too much about building bookshelves that actually attach to the wall. Thanks! -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–
Hey Gang, The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room..
Make that "living room." Not sure what a linging room is; sounds french. -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–
Use as much support along the span as you can get, remember books etc can hide any amount of support structure at the back. However they accentuate any bowing so go to town with those supports. reinforce the floor if you are going to transfer alot of weight down – especially if your floor boards run in the wrong direction, e.g. parallel with the end pieces. Measure your largest books and add about 1" – check which you biggest book is! Notch 1 corner to allow mains cables up the back with plugs on – the notches aren’t really noticable and you can have your hifi/phone/chargers/chrismas lights on your shelves without any cables up the front. Apply the finish to your shelves before installing if poss. Check if your walls are square before you cut all your shelves, as my walls open out at the top slightly when I filled in an alcove See also recent post below I have built two built-in bookcases in my current house. The first used solid oak, which I oiled, and the latter used A/B and A/C ply, which I painted. First off, I believe strongly that if its BUILT-IN, it should go from floor to ceiling. Secondly, if it’s BUILT-IN, shelf supports should not be visible. Dowels are OK, and require fewer tools than other methods which require dados, but aren’t going to be as sturdy as the preferred method, v.i.z.: horizontal dados for the shelves themselves. This requires clamps and glue, and is incredibly sturdy (and heavy, I might add). I don’t think its harder than cutting dados for those metal supports, and it looks orders of magnitude better. The hard part is fitting it all together with a face frame, accomodating the charming variances in your wall and ceiling. Finish is critical. For some reason the local paint stores are telling me you can’t get oil-based paints anymore. I used a water-based primer which raised the grain and really irritated me. Perhaps the shellac-primer trick would have avoided this. — 9692 Via Excelencia, San Diego, CA 92126 phone: (619) 271-9940
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Gang, The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room. The requirements are: – Unit will cover the length and height of a wall (~14′ long and 13′ tall). – The bottom 30" or so will have cabinets, drawers, etc. – The upper section (from 30" to 13′) will be bookshelves. They will hold a large number of heave books. – The back of the bookshelf area will be as open as possible (to see the wall). – Wood will be Maple (to match the kitchen cabinets) or maybe cherry (to match the floors). Some other type of hardwood would probably also work, but not oak. So, I’m thinking that I will either use plywood cut into strips or 1×12 hardwood boards. I don’t have the equipment or time to start with rough-sawn on this one. I’ll screw/glue some 1×2’s on the bottom rear of the shelves to support them and prevent them from sagging along the span. These will also be screwed through the sheet rock to the wall studs. If I use plywood then I’ll probably use 1×2 of hardwood on the front faces of the shelves to hide the plywood edge. This will also give it some more rigidity. A few things I haven’t figured out: 1) I can’t seem to find plywood longer than 8′. The bookshelf unit will be at least 10′ high. So there would need to be a seam at some point. Is there a good way to join the lenghts of plywood together? And make it look good? Maybe put some moulding to cover the joint? 2) Is plywood a bad idea for this? If I used solid wood then I can probably get away with not doing the 1×2 pieces to cover the fronts of the boards, which, IMO will look better and save time. Any other tips for this project? I’ve done some Google searching but haven’t found too much about building bookshelves that actually attach to the wall. Thanks! -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Gang, The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room. The requirements are: – Unit will cover the length and height of a wall (~14′ long and 13′ tall). – The bottom 30" or so will have cabinets, drawers, etc. – The upper section (from 30" to 13′) will be bookshelves. They will hold a large number of heave books. – The back of the bookshelf area will be as open as possible (to see the wall). – Wood will be Maple (to match the kitchen cabinets) or maybe cherry (to match the floors). Some other type of hardwood would probably also work, but not oak. So, I’m thinking that I will either use plywood cut into strips or 1×12 hardwood boards. I don’t have the equipment or time to start with rough-sawn on this one.
I’d probably go with plywood for this one. you may have a hard time finding enough 1×12 hardwood to do the shelves and casework in one piece. you can edge join narrower boards, but then you are back to surfacing. I’ll screw/glue some 1×2’s on the bottom rear of the shelves to support them and prevent them from sagging along the span. These will also be screwed through the sheet rock to the wall studs. If I use plywood then I’ll probably use 1×2 of hardwood on the front faces of the shelves to hide the plywood edge. This will also give it some more rigidity.
a full face frame will help pull the design together and give it visual solidity as well as add to the structural integrity of the case. A few things I haven’t figured out: 1) I can’t seem to find plywood longer than 8′. The bookshelf unit will be at least 10′ high. So there would need to be a seam at some point. Is there a good way to join the lenghts of plywood together? And make it look good? Maybe put some moulding to cover the joint?
pick a line in the room, probably the top of the doorways or the top of the windows, and run a crown or picture molding all of the way around the room at that height. the top of the crown will be the top of a fixed shelf with the joint in the standards hidden under the end of the shelf. the other shelves can be adjustable. just make sure they can support the weight you plan for them. the 1×2 hardwood edging front and back edges should take care of that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -2) Is plywood a bad idea for this? If I used solid wood then I can probably get away with not doing the 1×2 pieces to cover the fronts of the boards, which, IMO will look better and save time. Any other tips for this project? I’ve done some Google searching but haven’t found too much about building bookshelves that actually attach to the wall. Thanks! -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–
Matt; You will need to break the shelving into acceptable lengths to prevent bending under the weight of the books. You should plan on about 5 segments, each having shelves under 3 feet in length. You should make separate carcasses for lower and upper sections, thus accounting for the joining beyond 8 foot lengths of ply. Sources you might refer to include "Cabinetry" edited by Robert A. Yoder, page 100, "Traditional Bookshelves". Workbench No. 262, Nov/Dec 2000 has two articles, "custom-Fit Bookcase & Window Seat" and "Tower Bookcase" that might be of interest. I also saw an article in "Workbench" Set. 2002 (I think) on built-in bookcases. (I borrowed it from the library, so am not too sure). I am planning to do something similar in my home in the future but I am limited to under 8′ in height. Brian
| Hey Gang, | The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room. The | requirements are: | | – Unit will cover the length and height of a wall (~14′ long and 13′ tall). | – The bottom 30" or so will have cabinets, drawers, etc. | – The upper section (from 30" to 13′) will be bookshelves. They will hold a | large number of heave books. | – The back of the bookshelf area will be as open as possible (to see the | wall). | – Wood will be Maple (to match the kitchen cabinets) or maybe cherry (to | match the floors). Some other type of hardwood would probably also work, | but not oak. | | So, I’m thinking that I will either use plywood cut into strips or 1×12 | hardwood boards. I don’t have the equipment or time to start with | rough-sawn on this one. | | I’ll screw/glue some 1×2’s on the bottom rear of the shelves to support them | and prevent them from sagging along the span. These will also be screwed | through the sheet rock to the wall studs. | | If I use plywood then I’ll probably use 1×2 of hardwood on the front faces | of the shelves to hide the plywood edge. This will also give it some more | rigidity. | | A few things I haven’t figured out: | | 1) I can’t seem to find plywood longer than 8′. The bookshelf unit will be | at least 10′ high. So there would need to be a seam at some point. Is | there a good way to join the lenghts of plywood together? And make it look | good? Maybe put some moulding to cover the joint? | | 2) Is plywood a bad idea for this? If I used solid wood then I can probably | get away with not doing the 1×2 pieces to cover the fronts of the boards, | which, IMO will look better and save time. | | Any other tips for this project? I’ve done some Google searching but | haven’t found too much about building bookshelves that actually attach to | the wall. | | Thanks! | -Matt
Hi Matt, When I asked for help with the size of shelves a while ago, I was pointed to this site – plenty of help for me, may be of some use to you as well. Good luck with your project! Regards Andy http://www.woodbin.com/ref/furniture/shelves.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Gang, The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room. The requirements are: – Unit will cover the length and height of a wall (~14′ long and 13′ tall). – The bottom 30" or so will have cabinets, drawers, etc. – The upper section (from 30" to 13′) will be bookshelves. They will hold a large number of heave books. – The back of the bookshelf area will be as open as possible (to see the wall). – Wood will be Maple (to match the kitchen cabinets) or maybe cherry (to match the floors). Some other type of hardwood would probably also work, but not oak. So, I’m thinking that I will either use plywood cut into strips or 1×12 hardwood boards. I don’t have the equipment or time to start with rough-sawn on this one. I’ll screw/glue some 1×2’s on the bottom rear of the shelves to support them and prevent them from sagging along the span. These will also be screwed through the sheet rock to the wall studs. If I use plywood then I’ll probably use 1×2 of hardwood on the front faces of the shelves to hide the plywood edge. This will also give it some more rigidity. A few things I haven’t figured out: 1) I can’t seem to find plywood longer than 8′. The bookshelf unit will be at least 10′ high. So there would need to be a seam at some point. Is there a good way to join the lenghts of plywood together? And make it look good? Maybe put some moulding to cover the joint? 2) Is plywood a bad idea for this? If I used solid wood then I can probably get away with not doing the 1×2 pieces to cover the fronts of the boards, which, IMO will look better and save time. Any other tips for this project? I’ve done some Google searching but haven’t found too much about building bookshelves that actually attach to the wall. Thanks! -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers
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Here is a LONG time members version in MDF: http://www.blackfoot.net/~woodwork/laurioffice.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Gang, The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room. The requirements are: – Unit will cover the length and height of a wall (~14′ long and 13′ tall). – The bottom 30" or so will have cabinets, drawers, etc. – The upper section (from 30" to 13′) will be bookshelves. They will hold a large number of heave books. – The back of the bookshelf area will be as open as possible (to see the wall). – Wood will be Maple (to match the kitchen cabinets) or maybe cherry (to match the floors). Some other type of hardwood would probably also work, but not oak.
Matt; You will need to break the shelving into acceptable lengths to prevent bending under the weight of the books. You should plan on about 5 segments, each having shelves under 3 feet in length. You should make separate carcasses for lower and upper sections, thus accounting for the joining beyond 8 foot lengths of ply.
Yes, I plan to divide it into 5 sections. I should have specified this. With a 13′ tall ceiling, I think that it will have to be broken into 3 sections – 30" base, 8′ middle and ~2.5′ top. I liked the idea of using chair moulding at the seam for the whole room. Or maybe I’ll not quite go all the way to the top. It would probably look just fine with a 2.5′ gap up there and it’s a whole lot easier to not deal with construction up there. Sources you might refer to include "Cabinetry" edited by Robert A. Yoder, page 100, "Traditional Bookshelves". Workbench No. 262, Nov/Dec 2000 has two articles, "custom-Fit Bookcase & Window Seat" and "Tower Bookcase" that might be of interest. I also saw an article in "Workbench" Set. 2002 (I think) on built-in bookcases. (I borrowed it from the library, so am not too sure).
Thanks. I’ll check my library to see what I can find. I am planning to do something similar in my home in the future but I am limited to under 8′ in height. Brian
Thanks again to everyone who has replied. Great group.. -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–
Here is a LONG time members version in MDF: http://www.blackfoot.net/~woodwork/laurioffice.htm
Holy Bejesus, don’t show that one to my wife! That’s awesome! -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–
There is an article in last months FWW which shows how to build shelves. The shelves are not modular but are quick to assemble and disassemble. I have built the shelves and they look very nice indeed. You can modify the plans for almost any height and width.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Gang, The wife wants me to build a bookshelf for the liging room. The requirements are: – Unit will cover the length and height of a wall (~14′ long and 13′ tall). – The bottom 30" or so will have cabinets, drawers, etc. – The upper section (from 30" to 13′) will be bookshelves. They will hold a large number of heave books. – The back of the bookshelf area will be as open as possible (to see the wall). – Wood will be Maple (to match the kitchen cabinets) or maybe cherry (to match the floors). Some other type of hardwood would probably also work, but not oak. So, I’m thinking that I will either use plywood cut into strips or 1×12 hardwood boards. I don’t have the equipment or time to start with rough-sawn on this one. I’ll screw/glue some 1×2’s on the bottom rear of the shelves to support them and prevent them from sagging along the span. These will also be screwed through the sheet rock to the wall studs. If I use plywood then I’ll probably use 1×2 of hardwood on the front faces of the shelves to hide the plywood edge. This will also give it some more rigidity. A few things I haven’t figured out: 1) I can’t seem to find plywood longer than 8′. The bookshelf unit will be at least 10′ high. So there would need to be a seam at some point. Is there a good way to join the lenghts of plywood together? And make it look good? Maybe put some moulding to cover the joint? 2) Is plywood a bad idea for this? If I used solid wood then I can probably get away with not doing the 1×2 pieces to cover the fronts of the boards, which, IMO will look better and save time. Any other tips for this project? I’ve done some Google searching but haven’t found too much about building bookshelves that actually attach to the wall. Thanks! -Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers
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Yes, I plan to divide it into 5 sections. I should have specified this. With a 13′ tall ceiling, I think that it will have to be broken into 3 sections – 30" base, 8′ middle and ~2.5′ top. I liked the idea of using chair moulding at the seam for the whole room. Or maybe I’ll not quite go all the way to the top. It would probably look just fine with a 2.5′ gap up there and it’s a whole lot easier to not deal with construction up there.
If you’re married and your wife is anything like mine, make that a 6" to 9" gap. She’ll have it full of nick-nacks in a week 
. — It’s turtles – all the way down!
Hey Gang, … Any other tips for this project? I’ve done some Google searching but haven’t found too much about building bookshelves that actually attach to the wall. Thanks! -Matt
The current issue of Family Handyman has one that’s easy to make. See the cover page at http://www.familyhandyman.com/ I recall seeing a very nice one in Workbench not too long ago. I’ll try to remember to look that up tonight. — John Shear
Oh, for fucking christ’s sakes. You people are so anal sometimes. Yes, and I get paid good money for being like that. 
Peter
You get paid good money for being anal? This is beginning to sound pornographic? Just kidding around. — Ring "Isn’t having a smoking section in a restaurant like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?"
You people are so anal sometimes. Yes, and I get paid good money for being like that. OOOOOOOOOoooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You’re a bean counter! Yep. ;-)
So what do I have to do to deduct my cat? Jazziecat is a vital part of my business. 1) She causes about an hour of lost time per day, demanding pets. Guess I should consider a pay cut for her for that. 2) She provides solace after I get off the phone or email from dealing with a jerky customer. 3) She protects me from intrusive delivery persons. Ok, actually she just purrs at them. But she means well! – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok – Life is a banquet – and most poor suckers are starving to death.
OT, Peter: Do you use Peachtree?
Yep. The companies I work for either use Peachtree or Quickbooks. I have worked for other companies that use different programs, but I’m focusing on companies that use these two right now. Peter
OT, Peter: Do you use Peachtree? — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You people are so anal sometimes. Yes, and I get paid good money for being like that. OOOOOOOOOoooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You’re a bean counter! ( Or … naaaah. Yep. ;-) Peter
The concept of something you "write off" and an operational expense are very different. Nobody who knows what he’s talking about would ever make a connection between them.
Oh, for fucking christ’s sakes. You people are so anal sometimes. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The concept of something you "write off" and an operational expense are very different. Nobody who knows what he’s talking about would ever make a connection between them. Peter The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. A re-read of my post shows I was clearly mixing metaphors. Sorry. I guess I assumed anyone would know that you don’t write off *anything* until you’ve had a crack at selling it. My comment about writing off things he’s collected this year was specifically in regard to business operational expenses, NOT merchandise. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio Bad information, and very commonly misunderstood. What? That everything is subject to limits and that this person should consult an accountant? The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
I don’t know about you, Peter, but I call utilities and mortgage/rent an "operational expense." Home offices (which I presume this potential seller would have) are deductible to some limit which is determined individually. So are other miscellaneous expenses that brick-and-mortar businesses can’t deduct. Now, I’m sure I said that wrong, too. So have at me. Sheesh. This perfectly illustrates my point about how some people get so bent out of shape over attempts to gender-neutralize language, saying that "everybody knows what ‘man’ means!" Then you get the polar opposite, such as this newsgroup — where using words that don’t match up *exactly* to what one reader or another demands will land you in hot water and extend threads into oblivion. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The concept of something you "write off" and an operational expense are very different. Nobody who knows what he’s talking about would ever make a connection between them. Peter The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. A re-read of my post shows I was clearly mixing metaphors. Sorry. I guess I assumed anyone would know that you don’t write off *anything* until you’ve had a crack at selling it. My comment about writing off things he’s collected this year was specifically in regard to business operational expenses, NOT merchandise. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio Bad information, and very commonly misunderstood. What? That everything is subject to limits and that this person should consult an accountant? The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
If you have a business (as opposed to a hobby) and you qualify for the home office deduction (generally, if your home is the only place you operate your business from), you can use a percentage of your home expenses as business expenses. However, this is in no way a ‘write off’.
Figure of speech for the lay public, Peter. Let us have our share. 
— "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know about you, Peter, but I call utilities and mortgage/rent an "operational expense." Home offices (which I presume this potential seller would have) are deductible to some limit which is determined individually. So are other miscellaneous expenses that brick-and-mortar businesses can’t deduct. If you have a business (as opposed to a hobby) and you qualify for the home office deduction (generally, if your home is the only place you operate your business from), you can use a percentage of your home expenses as business expenses. However, this is in no way a ‘write off’. Now, I’m sure I said that wrong, too. So have at me. Sheesh. This perfectly illustrates my point about how some people get so bent out of shape over attempts to gender-neutralize language, saying that "everybody knows what ‘man’ means!" Then you get the polar opposite, such as this newsgroup — where using words that don’t match up *exactly* to what one reader or another demands will land you in hot water and extend threads into oblivion. This is usenet, for Christ’s sake. There is no horse so dead that someone, somewhere on usenet isn’t beating it. ;-0 Peter
You people are so anal sometimes. Yes, and I get paid good money for being like that. OOOOOOOOOoooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You’re a bean counter! ( Or … naaaah.
Yep. ;-) Peter
You people are so anal sometimes. Yes, and I get paid good money for being like that.
OOOOOOOOOoooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You’re a bean counter! ( Or … naaaah. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, for fucking christ’s sakes. You people are so anal sometimes. Yes, and I get paid good money for being like that. Peter
I don’t know about you, Peter, but I call utilities and mortgage/rent an "operational expense." Home offices (which I presume this potential seller would have) are deductible to some limit which is determined individually. So are other miscellaneous expenses that brick-and-mortar businesses can’t deduct.
If you have a business (as opposed to a hobby) and you qualify for the home office deduction (generally, if your home is the only place you operate your business from), you can use a percentage of your home expenses as business expenses. However, this is in no way a ‘write off’. Now, I’m sure I said that wrong, too. So have at me. Sheesh. This perfectly illustrates my point about how some people get so bent out of shape over attempts to gender-neutralize language, saying that "everybody knows what ‘man’ means!" Then you get the polar opposite, such as this newsgroup — where using words that don’t match up *exactly* to what one reader or another demands will land you in hot water and extend threads into oblivion.
This is usenet, for Christ’s sake. There is no horse so dead that someone, somewhere on usenet isn’t beating it. ;-0 Peter
Oh, for fucking christ’s sakes. You people are so anal sometimes.
Yes, and I get paid good money for being like that. Peter
If you’re worried about the difference between the price last year and the price this year you aren’t investing either, you’re speculating. Nothing wrong with it per se, but it is a more high risk venture. If you’re worried about the difference between the price last year and the price five or ten years down the road your investing. Richard Ward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That makes perfect sense. And I sure hope he sells it for more than he paid; after all, is that not the concept of "collectibles?" No, it’s not. The concept of collectables is that you collect them because you find it to be an enjoyable pasttime and you enjoy owning them. The concept of "investments" is that you sell them for more than you paid, and even that doesn’t always work–if you think it does, you haven’t checked the DOW or NASDAQ against a year ago’s figures. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
The concept of collectables is that you collect them because you find it to be an enjoyable pasttime and you enjoy owning them. The concept of "investments" is that you sell them for more than you paid, and even that doesn’t always work–if you think it does, you haven’t checked the DOW or NASDAQ against a year ago’s figure
A lot of "investments" have become collectables although there isn’t much joy in owning them. John
The concept of something you "write off" and an operational expense are very different. Nobody who knows what he’s talking about would ever make a connection between them. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. A re-read of my post shows I was clearly mixing metaphors. Sorry. I guess I assumed anyone would know that you don’t write off *anything* until you’ve had a crack at selling it. My comment about writing off things he’s collected this year was specifically in regard to business operational expenses, NOT merchandise. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio Bad information, and very commonly misunderstood. What? That everything is subject to limits and that this person should consult an accountant? The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses.
A re-read of my post shows I was clearly mixing metaphors. Sorry. I guess I assumed anyone would know that you don’t write off *anything* until you’ve had a crack at selling it. My comment about writing off things he’s collected this year was specifically in regard to business operational expenses, NOT merchandise. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bad information, and very commonly misunderstood. What? That everything is subject to limits and that this person should consult an accountant? The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
No, it’s not. The concept of collectables is that you collect them because you find it to be an enjoyable pasttime and you enjoy owning them. The concept of "investments" is that you sell them for more than you paid, and even that doesn’t always work–if you think it does, you haven’t checked the DOW or NASDAQ against a year ago’s figures. —
Fred, don’t be such a curmudgeon. Obviously, the idea behind trying to make money on eBay is to sell things for more than you paid. — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That makes perfect sense. And I sure hope he sells it for more than he paid; after all, is that not the concept of "collectibles?" No, it’s not. The concept of collectables is that you collect them because you find it to be an enjoyable pasttime and you enjoy owning them. The concept of "investments" is that you sell them for more than you paid, and even that doesn’t always work–if you think it does, you haven’t checked the DOW or NASDAQ against a year ago’s figures. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
Bad information, and very commonly misunderstood. What? That everything is subject to limits and that this person should consult an accountant?
The only good information you provided was that he should consult an accountant. The rest of it was mostly wrong, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s not subject to limits. I’m not picking on you, but most of what you said was not how things are figured when calculating business profits or losses. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
That makes perfect sense. And I sure hope he sells it for more than he paid; after all, is that not the concept of "collectibles?"
No, it’s not. The concept of collectables is that you collect them because you find it to be an enjoyable pasttime and you enjoy owning them. The concept of "investments" is that you sell them for more than you paid, and even that doesn’t always work–if you think it does, you haven’t checked the DOW or NASDAQ against a year ago’s figures. — "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You spammed my father. Prepare to die."
Expenses are expenses–bills you have to pay in order to keep the "doors" open. They have nothing to do with whether the business makes a profit that year or not. <etc – much snippage of good stuff
All this seems sound to me, in biz now for almost 4 years (eBay just a very small part of it, but included nonetheless just like the other facets). If you play it straight, it’s a win/win situation, even if you never make any significant bux. About worst will happen is that at some point the Feds can declare your biz a "hobby" and not let you take any more deductions for it (has to do with how many years you lost money without making any or somesuch). I reiterate, take all legal deductions, but play it straight. Also make sure you’re doing the right thing re sales/income tax for your state. This includes sales tax on things you buy for your biz. Obviously, anything you buy for resale, if you can get it taxfree, is fine. But you are probably supposed to pay sales tax for other biz items. In TN, you are SUPPOSED to pay sales tax even if you buy stuff from out of state. I have something called an Industrial Machinery Authorization Exemption, which is a fancy way of saying that anything I use to produce my products (in my case photos, scans, digital film products, websites, technical writing, multi-image shows, cheeseburgers , etc) I can buy without paying sales tax, which has saved me 3 or 4 grand over 4 years. YMMV on that, depending on what your state allows and what your "product" is considered to be. (TN doesn’t have income tax, yet.) My accountant’s first advice was "Play it VERY straight with the STATE, as they’ll come down on you for comparatively little revenue, whereas the Feds won’t split hairs as much. — Mac (doogle) www.doogle.com
– "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio As far as writing off expenses, you can write off anything you can justify as a business expense within (help me out here, accountants) the same calendar year as you first report revenues. That means everything you collected over the years is not deductible, but anything you bought this year may be. And anything you buy to help operate your business is also deductible, subject to normal limits. That is an individual situation and you should consult a CPA for more information. Bad information, and very commonly misunderstood.
What? That everything is subject to limits and that this person should consult an accountant? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Expenses are expenses–bills you have to pay in order to keep the "doors" open. They have nothing to do with whether the business makes a profit that year or not. If they result in a loss, they can be applied to the next year’s taxes, or used to cancel out income from your 9-5 job. Expenses include things like office supplies, a computer, your ISP bill, phone bill, utilities, ebay fees, mileage (to and from shows and the post office, for example), advertising, postage, interest you paid for money you bought stuff with, rent, insurance, etc. They are all deductable from your profit, to the extent that they are used in business. There are also some finer details regarding depreciation, which is where the CPA comes in. Inventory is the stuff you’re selling. It’s not deductable, ever. It is your asset base. If you bought a card for $1 ten years ago, it is carried on your books at $1 as part of your inventory. It doesn’t matter whether you bought it ten years ago, last week, or whether it’s on consignment and you pay after you sell it–the only difference is when it counts as part of your inventory, which is when you have paid for it and still own it. Once you sell something, the difference between what you paid for it and what you sell it for is your gross profit. If the card sells for $10, your gross profit is $9. Unless a market really collapses, you will almost always have a gross profit. Once you add up all the individual gross profits (or your total sales minus what you paid for the specific items you sold), you have a total gross profit from which you deduct your expenses. If your expenses are less than your gross profit, you made money, if not, you lost money. If you don’t lose money the first few years of business, you are probably overlooking an expense or two. Note that it doesn’t matter whether you had $10,000 in old stuff that you started selling, or bought $10,000 worth in the current year, or bought $1 million and only sold $10 of it. The inventory is the value (at cost) of your "stuff", and does not enter into the profit calculations, except for the value of each item WHEN it is sold. The neat thing about being in business (and I mean doing it legitimately, not some hocus pocus) is that you can deduct a lot of things that you used to pay for, but can now be considered legitimate business expenses. For example, if you used to go to antique shows to buy stuff for your collection, that’s your hobby. If you go to the same shows to buy stuff to resell (or to sell to dealers at the show, or even just to do research), you can now deduct the admission, parking, mileage, hotel room and food if it’s far enough away, etc. In fact, for far-away shows and buying trips, there’s a thing called a per diem expense of around $75 a day for food–and the IRS doesn’t even ask for receipts–it’s like the standard deduction. This doesn’t mean you can list an item a month on ebay, and write off your summer vacation slumming at antique stores across the country. However, if you run a business like you would expect a business to be run, and try to do it for a profit, you will be OK. That includes keeping track of everything you buy and sell, devoting a reasonable portion of your time to business activities, buying things you can reasonably expect to sell at a profit, selling what you buy as opposed to keeping it, etc. Get a basic book or three on starting a business. Get an accountant. Go for it. — I’ll give up my guns when it takes longer for a burglar to shoot than it does for a cop to get here from a donut shop.
As far as writing off expenses, you can write off anything you can justify as a business expense within (help me out here, accountants) the same calendar year as you first report revenues. That means everything you collected over the years is not deductible, but anything you bought this year may be. And anything you buy to help operate your business is also deductible, subject to normal limits. That is an individual situation and you should consult a CPA for more information.
Bad information, and very commonly misunderstood. Expenses are expenses–bills you have to pay in order to keep the "doors" open. They have nothing to do with whether the business makes a profit that year or not. If they result in a loss, they can be applied to the next year’s taxes, or used to cancel out income from your 9-5 job. Expenses include things like office supplies, a computer, your ISP bill, phone bill, utilities, ebay fees, mileage (to and from shows and the post office, for example), advertising, postage, interest you paid for money you bought stuff with, rent, insurance, etc. They are all deductable from your profit, to the extent that they are used in business. There are also some finer details regarding depreciation, which is where the CPA comes in. Inventory is the stuff you’re selling. It’s not deductable, ever. It is your asset base. If you bought a card for $1 ten years ago, it is carried on your books at $1 as part of your inventory. It doesn’t matter whether you bought it ten years ago, last week, or whether it’s on consignment and you pay after you sell it–the only difference is when it counts as part of your inventory, which is when you have paid for it and still own it. Once you sell something, the difference between what you paid for it and what you sell it for is your gross profit. If the card sells for $10, your gross profit is $9. Unless a market really collapses, you will almost always have a gross profit. Once you add up all the individual gross profits (or your total sales minus what you paid for the specific items you sold), you have a total gross profit from which you deduct your expenses. If your expenses are less than your gross profit, you made money, if not, you lost money. If you don’t lose money the first few years of business, you are probably overlooking an expense or two. Note that it doesn’t matter whether you had $10,000 in old stuff that you started selling, or bought $10,000 worth in the current year, or bought $1 million and only sold $10 of it. The inventory is the value (at cost) of your "stuff", and does not enter into the profit calculations, except for the value of each item WHEN it is sold. The neat thing about being in business (and I mean doing it legitimately, not some hocus pocus) is that you can deduct a lot of things that you used to pay for, but can now be considered legitimate business expenses. For example, if you used to go to antique shows to buy stuff for your collection, that’s your hobby. If you go to the same shows to buy stuff to resell (or to sell to dealers at the show, or even just to do research), you can now deduct the admission, parking, mileage, hotel room and food if it’s far enough away, etc. In fact, for far-away shows and buying trips, there’s a thing called a per diem expense of around $75 a day for food–and the IRS doesn’t even ask for receipts–it’s like the standard deduction. This doesn’t mean you can list an item a month on ebay, and write off your summer vacation slumming at antique stores across the country. However, if you run a business like you would expect a business to be run, and try to do it for a profit, you will be OK. That includes keeping track of everything you buy and sell, devoting a reasonable portion of your time to business activities, buying things you can reasonably expect to sell at a profit, selling what you buy as opposed to keeping it, etc. Get a basic book or three on starting a business. Get an accountant. Go for it. — I’ll give up my guns when it takes longer for a burglar to shoot than it does for a cop to get here from a donut shop.
That makes perfect sense. And I sure hope he sells it for more than he paid; after all, is that not the concept of "collectibles?" — "It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then." — G.W. Bush, from a 1994 interview, as quoted in First Son, by Bill Minutaglio
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure the advice of the previous honorable poster is entirely correct. What you propose to do is basically transfer property acquired for personal use to your new business. You would not give your stuff away free to another business, so why should you give it away free to yours? What you would logically do is sell it to your business at fair market value. You can determine this by the price it brings on eBay. Thus your business could treat the full selling price of the item as a cost. But you’re not out of the woods yet. When you sold the item to your business, you may have created a taxable event on the personal side. If you sold it for less than you originally paid, you realized no income. If you had a gain on property held for more than one year, it might be eligible for the 28% capital gains rate on collectables. If it was less than one year, it’s probably a short-term gain taxable at ordinary rates. You probably should check with an accountant to make sure this is correct.
I’m not sure the advice of the previous honorable poster is entirely correct. What you propose to do is basically transfer property acquired for personal use to your new business. You would not give your stuff away free to another business, so why should you give it away free to yours? What you would logically do is sell it to your business at fair market value. You can determine this by the price it brings on eBay. Thus your business could treat the full selling price of the item as a cost. But you’re not out of the woods yet. When you sold the item to your business, you may have created a taxable event on the personal side. If you sold it for less than you originally paid, you realized no income. If you had a gain on property held for more than one year, it might be eligible for the 28% capital gains rate on collectables. If it was less than one year, it’s probably a short-term gain taxable at ordinary rates. You probably should check with an accountant to make sure this is correct.
I’ve collected a lot of items like cards & toys etc. over the years & I want to start selling on Ebay. I need to know about getting a tax ID, a name for the business etc. How far back can I use receipts since I don’t have a tax ID yet? I don’t know much about this venture but I want to give it a try. I just need to know how to get started & how to keep everything legit with the IRS. Thanks in advance! Direct emails are welcome! Surfer
www.irs.gov … they’ll guide you through the process. If you have Adobe Acrobat, you can download a .pdf document for applying for a Taxpayer ID number. It takes forever to get. Don’t sweat it. It’s only really necessary if you have employees. As far as writing off expenses, you can write off anything you can justify as a business expense within (help me out here, accountants) the same calendar year as you first report revenues. That means everything you collected over the years is not deductible, but anything you bought this year may be. And anything you buy to help operate your business is also deductible, subject to normal limits. That is an individual situation and you should consult a CPA for more information. In the meantime, you should check with your state for their tax requirements. You may have to get a business license (probably will, in fact). It all depends on the volume you plan to do. — "The only thing I know about Slovakia is what I learned first-hand from your foreign minister, who came to Texas." - Our worldly president-to-be, to a Slovak journalist as quoted by Knight Ridder News Service, June 22, 1999. Bush’s meeting was with Janez Drnovsek, the prime minister of Slovenia.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve collected a lot of items like cards & toys etc. over the years & I want to start selling on Ebay. I need to know about getting a tax ID, a name for the business etc. How far back can I use receipts since I don’t have a tax ID yet? I don’t know much about this venture but I want to give it a try. I just need to know how to get started & how to keep everything legit with the IRS. Thanks in advance! Direct emails are welcome! Surfer
A Fixed Assets Register is set up to record each individual asset, and usually contains the following minimum data; Date of Acquisition Acquisition Price Description of Asset Depreciation Rate Accumulated Depreciation to Date Written Down Value to Date Other data may be included depending on your requirements; location of asset, tax depreciation as distinct from book, item ID #, retirement date, sale value, etc etc. Sarah Clark rightly pointed out that not all depreciation shows up as COS, non production depn would show in expense accounts by cost centre. I implied this in my earlier reply, I should have been more specific. Ken Russell Sydney Australia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s another question regarding depreciation: I notice that the Asset accounts are lumped together in categories like Vehicles, etc. Now, what happens if you have, say, two or three vehicles and all bought at different but overlapping times in the life of the company? If you don’t specifically list each vehicle separately with its Original Cost and Accumulated Depreciation accounts, how do you determine Book Value of any one vehicle at any point in time, especially if the odd vehicle or two requires more upgrades or repairs than another? Or isn’t this a consideration accounting-wise? Doesn’t this become a nightmare when even medium-sized fleets of vehicles are involved? Even if you’re NOT in the car rental business? How is this concept reconciled? Remove "spamkill" to email me. Don’t send me spam. You’ve been warned. "Lallang" is the Malay name for "Cogon grass". See http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/imcy1.htm for information.
I understand depreciation of on site equipment that is producing revenues for you as a cost of goods sold but what about depreciation of computer and office furniture? Should that have its own line item as an expense item or should it be lumped together with the other depreciation?
OK. First of all depreciation has nothing to do with cost of goods sold. depreciation is an operating expense. Second of all, each category of asset has a separate depreciation account- actually the current term is "amortization". So every accounting period you have to accrue the amortization expense for that period (date) Amortization expense for XYZ machine 2000 Accumulated amortization 2000 So the machinery , office equipment, furniture, vehicles, etc. all have separate amortization accounts. You make adjustments at the end of the period to bring the accumulated amortization accounts up to date. Then the accumulated amortization is deducted from the value of the asset in the balance sheet statement….it’s a "contra-asset" account.
Gary, In a manufacturing company, depending on the costing system adopted, depreciation of manufacturing equipment could be part of COGS. By the way, the term "Amortisation" is applied to intangible assets, "Depreciation" to physical assets. Ken Russell Sydney Australia
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand depreciation of on site equipment that is producing revenues for you as a cost of goods sold but what about depreciation of computer and office furniture? Should that have its own line item as an expense item or should it be lumped together with the other depreciation? OK. First of all depreciation has nothing to do with cost of goods sold. depreciation is an operating expense. Second of all, each category of asset has a separate depreciation account- actually the current term is "amortization". So every accounting period you have to accrue the amortization expense for that period (date) Amortization expense for XYZ machine 2000 Accumulated amortization 2000 So the machinery , office equipment, furniture, vehicles, etc. all have separate amortization accounts. You make adjustments at the end of the period to bring the accumulated amortization accounts up to date. Then the accumulated amortization is deducted from the value of the asset in the balance sheet statement….it’s a "contra-asset" account.
Gary, In a manufacturing company, depending on the costing system adopted, depreciation of manufacturing equipment could be part of COGS. By the way, the term "Amortisation" is applied to intangible assets, "Depreciation" to physical assets.
Ken: In Canada, the terms depreciation & fixed assets are no longer referenced to in the CICA Handbook. Rather the CICA Handbook suggests amortization be used to cover off all depreciation, depletion, & amortization. Similarily the Handbook suggests using capital assets to cover off all fixed assets & intangible assets.
Most companies who have multiple high cost assets use an asset tracking type of software to calculate depreciation, which is then entered as a total amount in the appropriate asset and expense categories, with notes in the financial statements as to how those numbers were generated. Barb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s another question regarding depreciation: I notice that the Asset accounts are lumped together in categories like Vehicles, etc. Now, what happens if you have, say, two or three vehicles and all bought at different but overlapping times in the life of the company? If you don’t specifically list each vehicle separately with its Original Cost and Accumulated Depreciation accounts, how do you determine Book Value of any one vehicle at any point in time, especially if the odd vehicle or two requires more upgrades or repairs than another? Or isn’t this a consideration accounting-wise? Doesn’t this become a nightmare when even medium-sized fleets of vehicles are involved? Even if you’re NOT in the car rental business? How is this concept reconciled? Remove "spamkill" to email me. Don’t send me spam. You’ve been warned. "Lallang" is the Malay name for "Cogon grass". See http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/imcy1.htm for information.
Depreciation in general should be put in under General & Administrative Expenses (G&A) especially for office furniture/computer etc. They should NOT be lumped into your Cost of Goods Sold account
depreciation on assets that are used in the production process need to be classified as cost of sales! so depreciation in general should be coded exactly proportionate with the function of the assets, not to G & A. think of a printing company that has 1MM worth of presses and 1,000 worth of furniture … — sarah clark Would you not like to be Sitting on top of the world, with your legs hanging free? Would you not like to be ? Okay, okay, okay – Dave Matthews Band
Depreciation in general should be put in under General & Administrative Expenses (G&A) especially for office furniture/computer etc. They should NOT be lumped into your Cost of Goods Sold account
Thanks Dan. I guess things are different in some countries. Ken Russell Sydney Australia
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary, In a manufacturing company, depending on the costing system adopted, depreciation of manufacturing equipment could be part of COGS. By the way, the term "Amortisation" is applied to intangible assets, "Depreciation" to physical assets. Ken: In Canada, the terms depreciation & fixed assets are no longer referenced to in the CICA Handbook. Rather the CICA Handbook suggests amortization be used to cover off all depreciation, depletion, & amortization. Similarily the Handbook suggests using capital assets to cover off all fixed assets & intangible assets.
Ah! I see. Thank you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A Fixed Assets Register is set up to record each individual asset, and usually contains the following minimum data; Date of Acquisition Acquisition Price Description of Asset Depreciation Rate Accumulated Depreciation to Date Written Down Value to Date Other data may be included depending on your requirements; location of asset, tax depreciation as distinct from book, item ID #, retirement date, sale value, etc etc. Sarah Clark rightly pointed out that not all depreciation shows up as COS, non production depn would show in expense accounts by cost centre. I implied this in my earlier reply, I should have been more specific. Ken Russell Sydney Australia Here’s another question regarding depreciation: I notice that the Asset accounts are lumped together in categories like Vehicles, etc. Now, what happens if you have, say, two or three vehicles and all bought at different but overlapping times in the life of the company? If you don’t specifically list each vehicle separately with its Original Cost and Accumulated Depreciation accounts, how do you determine Book Value of any one vehicle at any point in time, especially if the odd vehicle or two requires more upgrades or repairs than another? Or isn’t this a consideration accounting-wise? Doesn’t this become a nightmare when even medium-sized fleets of vehicles are involved? Even if you’re NOT in the car rental business? How is this concept reconciled?
Remove "spamkill" to email me. Don’t send me spam. You’ve been warned. "Lallang" is the Malay name for "Cogon grass". See http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/imcy1.htm for information.
I understand depreciation of on site equipment that is producing revenues for you as a cost of goods sold but what about depreciation of computer and office furniture? Should that have its own line item as an expense item or should it be lumped together with the other depreciation?
Hi Jason, Depreciation expense can be individual expense accounts by asset type if needed, or it can be just one account covering all assets. It all depends how much detail you want to show in your reports. It may be a good idea to separate depreciation expense on production facilities from office furniture and equipment. Ken Russell Sydney Australia
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand depreciation of on site equipment that is producing revenues for you as a cost of goods sold but what about depreciation of computer and office furniture? Should that have its own line item as an expense item or should it be lumped together with the other depreciation?
Hi Jason, Depreciation expense can be individual expense accounts by asset type if needed, or it can be just one account covering all assets. It all depends how much detail you want to show in your reports. It may be a good idea to separate depreciation expense on production facilities from office furniture and equipment. Ken Russell Sydney Australia
Pardon me for butting in but wouldn’t this information be already found in the Accumulated Depreciation contra-asset account (i.e. for each debit to the Depreciation expense account, there would be a corresponding credit to the Accumulated Depreciation contra-asset account)? And the detail would be found depending on how many Accum Dep accounts you create (i.e. one for everything considered, say, a "computer" or one for each individual computing device)? I’m not being facetious: I’m a non accountant who’s just trying to get a handle on this accountancy/bookkeeping stuff. Remove "spamkill" to email me. Don’t send me spam. You’ve been warned. "Lallang" is the Malay name for "Cogon grass". See http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/imcy1.htm for information.
The data certainly would be on the balance sheet in the Accumulated Depreciation accounts by asset type for the TOTAL company but as the name suggests, it is the accumulation of depreciation charges from the time of purchase of all assets. There is no way of telling to which cost centre the depreciation belongs. The only way cost centres can reflect this detail is to set up expense accounts to capture it that way. Jason needs to determine what level of detail will make his reports most meaningful. Ken Russell Sydney Australia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Jason, Depreciation expense can be individual expense accounts by asset type if needed, or it can be just one account covering all assets. It all depends how much detail you want to show in your reports. It may be a good idea to separate depreciation expense on production facilities from office furniture and equipment. Ken Russell Sydney Australia Pardon me for butting in but wouldn’t this information be already found in the Accumulated Depreciation contra-asset account (i.e. for each debit to the Depreciation expense account, there would be a corresponding credit to the Accumulated Depreciation contra-asset account)? And the detail would be found depending on how many Accum Dep accounts you create (i.e. one for everything considered, say, a "computer" or one for each individual computing device)? I’m not being facetious: I’m a non accountant who’s just trying to get a handle on this accountancy/bookkeeping stuff. Remove "spamkill" to email me. Don’t send me spam. You’ve been warned. "Lallang" is the Malay name for "Cogon grass". See http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/imcy1.htm for information.
Ah! I see. Thanks. I think I can see applications to my own situation. The data certainly would be on the balance sheet in the Accumulated Depreciation accounts by asset type for the TOTAL company but as the name suggests, it is the accumulation of depreciation charges from the time of purchase of all assets. There is no way of telling to which cost centre the depreciation belongs. The only way cost centres can reflect this detail is to set up expense accounts to capture it that way. Jason needs to determine what level of detail will make his reports most meaningful. Ken Russell Sydney Australia
Remove "spamkill" to email me. Don’t send me spam. You’ve been warned. "Lallang" is the Malay name for "Cogon grass". See http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/imcy1.htm for information.
The data certainly would be on the balance sheet in the Accumulated Depreciation accounts by asset type for the TOTAL company but as the name suggests, it is the accumulation of depreciation charges from the time of purchase of all assets. There is no way of telling to which cost centre the depreciation belongs. The only way cost centres can reflect this detail is to set up expense accounts to capture it that way. Jason needs to determine what level of detail will make his reports most meaningful.
but if it’s material, his office depreciation needs to be in G & A, not COS. That would not be a matter of personal preference, imo.. — sarah clark Would you not like to be Sitting on top of the world, with your legs hanging free? Would you not like to be ? Okay, okay, okay – Dave Matthews Band
Here’s another question regarding depreciation: I notice that the Asset accounts are lumped together in categories like Vehicles, etc. Now, what happens if you have, say, two or three vehicles and all bought at different but overlapping times in the life of the company? If you don’t specifically list each vehicle separately with its Original Cost and Accumulated Depreciation accounts, how do you determine Book Value of any one vehicle at any point in time, especially if the odd vehicle or two requires more upgrades or repairs than another? Or isn’t this a consideration accounting-wise? Doesn’t this become a nightmare when even medium-sized fleets of vehicles are involved? Even if you’re NOT in the car rental business? How is this concept reconciled? Remove "spamkill" to email me. Don’t send me spam. You’ve been warned. "Lallang" is the Malay name for "Cogon grass". See http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/imcy1.htm for information.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Consider the following:- A acquires B for
Qbp 5.0 doesn’t withhold correct amount of fica or medicare for one employee. Would also like to use inventory description (not item number) to bring up inventory when writing invoices. Any suggestions?
Hi Liz: Keep a reasonably recent extra copy of the company file for test purposes. One payroll bug was due to YTD errors, so check YTD wages against YTD tax. You also might upgrade with the latest on-line version and Windows – Close All – File – Utilities – Rebuild to clean up data errors. Problems can relates to an income amount not being properly included or excluded in tax calculations. In such cases I often find reasons for apparent payroll tax errors with a spreadsheet, by seeing what is different about employees who are wrong. Run a Report – Payroll – Employee Earnings Summary for ONE week. Print to a file in Excel, etc., format. Import in the file and do calculations manually. If this fails, send me a QBB file. I will keep it completely confidential. As a very experienced QB Professional Advisors, we always have many leftover "free calls" to Intuit Tech Support. I have not heard anything about a Preference to recall inventory by description, but it a good idea. Until then, you could use an Item Number that would normally be part of the regular description, while putting any official Item Number at the end of the description. mike block – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am working with a group that is now actively looking for QuickBooks bugs and product suggestions. No idea is too small. Please email or post, so we can all help make QuickBooks do even more of what you want. Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A., 954-566-7540 National #1 QuickBooks 6 Top Tester QuickBooks add-ons/seminars: www.blcoktax.com keeping biz.comp.accounting spam free
I am working with a group that is now actively looking for QuickBooks bugs and product suggestions. No idea is too small. Please email or post, so we can all help make QuickBooks do even more of what you want.
I don’t know how later versions of QB perform, but we use QB 3.0 UK. We enter a transaction under one expense category, and ensure that the VAT code is correctly applied. If we then decide we have categorized it wrongly and open the transaction to change the category, it then uses the default VAT code! Mike — Michael J Davis Watchman Consulting Associates Ltd | For this is what the Lord has said to me, << | "Go and post a Watchman and let him report what he sees." Isa 21:6 <<
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" S: The ability to enter Taxable items on Statements. I do service throughout the month and bill at the end. I would like to be able to enter mchdse sales on the statements instead of using invoices.
That would help. I suspect the structure of statement billing excludes it. An alternative is possible. Calculate the tax and use an item that credits it to an income account. Before paying sales tax, use a journal entry to move it into Sales Tax Payable. The entry is the reverse of what the User’s Guide describes for a Sales Tax Credit. Harry Pottol Click here for the best book on QuickBooks Content-type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit <HTML <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE <PS: The ability to enter Taxable items on Statements. I do service <BRthroughout <BRthe month and bill at the end. I would like to be able to enter mchdse <BRsales <BRon the statements instead of using invoices. <BR </BLOCKQUOTE That would help. I suspect the structure of statement billing excludes it. <PAn alternative is possible. Calculate the tax and use an item that credits it to an income account. Before paying sales tax, use a journal entry to move it into Sales Tax Payable. The entry is the reverse of what the User’s Guide describes for a Sales Tax Credit. <PHarry Pottol <BR <A HREF="http://www.moneymeter.com"Click here for the best book on QuickBooks</A <BR </HTML
STRONG Suggestion. The ability to specify a check number manually when making a payment. Man is that frustrating!!! S: The ability to enter Taxable items on Statements. I do service throughout the month and bill at the end. I would like to be able to enter mchdse sales on the statements instead of using invoices. S: The ability to receive PO items on COD with a check instead of using a bill. S: I give clients Net15 on invoices. But, I have a custom Terms type for Service Contracts each month. I would like to be able to shut off the question that asks me if I want to make that my default terms every time I bill a Contract each month. S: Integration with Outlook/Exchange Server Contacts list for Customers and Vendors. S: Outlook Exchange Integration for Emailing/Faxing Invoices, Contact Management, ToDo’s/Reminders, PURCHASE ORDERS(It would be great to have an Exchange Server PO Request/Approval routing system. This would be Outstanding. S: Larger ‘Check No’ field for Customer Payments. S: EFT Payment Method S: When Receiving Customer Payments, it would be nice to check off the Invoices first and have QB fill in the payment amount. S: The ability to set multiple default backup points. I create a floppy AND a network backup file when I do backups. It would be nice to do this in one fell swoop. HTH, Chris Mindas MicroDyn Consulting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am working with a group that is now actively looking for QuickBooks bugs and product suggestions. No idea is too small. Please email or post, so we can all help make QuickBooks do even more of what you want. Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A., 954-566-7540 National #1 QuickBooks 6 Top Tester QuickBooks add-ons/seminars: www.blcoktax.com keeping biz.comp.accounting spam free
I am working with a group that is now actively looking for QuickBooks bugs and product suggestions. No idea is too small. Please email or post, so we can all help make QuickBooks do even more of what you want. Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A., 954-566-7540 National #1 QuickBooks 6 Top Tester QuickBooks add-ons/seminars: www.blcoktax.com keeping biz.comp.accounting spam free
Qbp 5.0 doesn’t withhold correct amount of fica or medicare for one employee. Would also like to use inventory description (not item number) to bring up inventory when writing invoices. Any suggestions? Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am working with a group that is now actively looking for QuickBooks bugs and product suggestions. No idea is too small. Please email or post, so we can all help make QuickBooks do even more of what you want. Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A., 954-566-7540 National #1 QuickBooks 6 Top Tester QuickBooks add-ons/seminars: www.blcoktax.com keeping biz.comp.accounting spam free
My company is starting up a non-profit thriftstore, similar to Goodwill Industries. Since all of the items we sell will be donated, we have a question on whether we should recognize revenue when a donation is received. I know that according to GAAP, donations are usually recognized as revenue as long as the amount is significant and the value can be determined fairly. But how can we determine a fair value of the donated item, as most will be used and some won’t be worth selling? Are there any exceptions, which allow non-profits to wait until such items are sold to recognize revenue? Also, if we do recognize revenue what are the proper accounting entries to be made for the donation and then for the sale of the same donated item? This is my best attempt at such an entry: DR CR Inventory 5 Donated Revenue 5 to record the donation of an item valued at $5 Cash 10 Donated Expense 5 Inventory 5 Sales 10 to record the sale of the same item for $10 Any help or advise in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
fasb 116 says contributions should be recognized when they are received. They should be recognized at their "fair market" value… That is where your problem comes about, what to consider fair value. The debit would be to inventory and the credit to contributions…. the fair value would be an estimate of value. the value would be tested in an audit by noting history and subsequent sales of merchandise. the je at sale would be a dr to cash then a credit to inventory (at the value determined at donation) and the je would be balanced by some account that quantifies the over or undervaluation of the contribution (IE gain/loss on valuation of inventory)….. have fun – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company is starting up a non-profit thriftstore, similar to Goodwill Industries. Since all of the items we sell will be donated, we have a question on whether we should recognize revenue when a donation is received. I know that according to GAAP, donations are usually recognized as revenue as long as the amount is significant and the value can be determined fairly. But how can we determine a fair value of the donated item, as most will be used and some won’t be worth selling? Are there any exceptions, which allow non-profits to wait until such items are sold to recognize revenue? Also, if we do recognize revenue what are the proper accounting entries to be made for the donation and then for the sale of the same donated item? This is my best attempt at such an entry: DR CR Inventory 5 Donated Revenue 5 to record the donation of an item valued at $5 Cash 10 Donated Expense 5 Inventory 5 Sales 10 to record the sale of the same item for $10 Any help or advise in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Just saw this post, don’t you mean Facist Mortgagee….you are the mortgagor
3. I’ve attempted to get a "non-sell" clause in the mortgage contract to prohibit the mortgage company from selling the contract to another party. Sometimes I’ve been successful with this but mostly not.
Why would you possibly care if they sell the loan? Whoever buys it will be obligated to honor the terms of the loan contract, so what possible difference could it who you make the checks out to?
3. I’ve attempted to get a "non-sell" clause in the mortgage contract to prohibit the mortgage company from selling the contract to another party. Sometimes I’ve been successful with this but mostly not. Why would you possibly care if they sell the loan? Whoever buys it will be obligated to honor the terms of the loan contract, so what possible difference could it who you make the checks out to?
Because "obligated to honor" and "honor" are two very different things. Or to put it another way: you can’t eat, deposit in your bank account, etc., an obligation. Also there are big differences in competence, customer service, etc. between different mortgage servicers. — Scott
First, please forgive me for responding directly, I’m not sure my posts are making it past my "server". 3. I’ve attempted to get a "non-sell" clause in the mortgage contract to prohibit the mortgage company from selling the contract to another party. Sometimes I’ve been successful with this but mostly not. Why would you possibly care if they sell the loan? Whoever buys it will be obligated to honor the terms of the loan contract, so what possible difference could it who you make the checks out to?
I don’t make out checks, my bank does an ETF. In our last house, the mortgage was sold before we closed! In 2 years, it was sold 2 more times; each time we got nasty notes about non-payment. The bank (actually a CU) was so good to us about other things that when we moved, we made a special effort to go thru the CU to finance. Robert Thornton
Now EMC Corporation is bombarding me with conflicting threats. First they demand immediate payment of the outstanding very large "escrow". What "escrow"? No, it’s not taxes. They thre figures at me, but nothing to justify them. Then they decide to double the amount of my monthly payment (my contract is a fixed-rate 30 years mortgage). Then they changed their minds. Don’t know what’s going on in their minds or in their accounting system.
I just thought I’d jump in here also in case anyone searching pulls up this message. Back in the early 80’s I had a house and mortgage (also in Texas). I was a first time homebuyer, so what did I know? What happened was that although the mortgage conditions and terms were regulated out the kazaoo, the ESCROW was completely (at that time) UNregulated. If they all of a sudden decided they wanted $5000/month escrow, there was absolutely nothing I could do about it but pay up or default on my Mortgage. In effect this is exactly what they did. I received a notice saying that they had changed their bookkeeping and now wanted all of the escrow in the account at the beginning of the year, instead of me paying is monthly along with the P&I, and to please send them $2000/month for the new two months. This damn near put me into foreclosure (it was REAL close – I called the mortgage insurance guys and told ‘em I was going to let them have the house – they didn’t like that at *all*). This company is now out of business (and I hope the guys are in jail as a result of the S&L stuff), so the name is moot. However, since them in 3 other real estate transactions, I’ve avoided problems by doing the following. 1. There ain’t no escrow! I pay the taxes and insurance myself. It’s sometimes difficult to find a mortgage company that will do this since escrow is such a cash cow for them (in Texas at the time, they didn’t have to pay interest on the escrow – nor did they have to give you an option to refund any overage at the end of the year). 2. There ain’t no mortgage insurance! I found out dealing with the MI guys that there’s no point in having it from the owner’s point of view (which seems obvious in retrospect). I’ve been fortunate in that I’ve been able to save enough to put down the 20% or so to avoid that. (Note – this is not the same as title insurance which will pretty much always be required – although it only covers the mortgage company’s ass – you might want to look into owner’s Title Insurance as well). 3. I’ve attempted to get a "non-sell" clause in the mortgage contract to prohibit the mortgage company from selling the contract to another party. Sometimes I’ve been successful with this but mostly not. Subsequently I believe that *some* controls on escrow have been been put into effect (by the feds?) but I got burned so badly on my first house with it, I’ve never had it again so can’t say much along those lines. Watch out about escrow! Best to have an RE attorney look at the contract to see if there are potential pitfalls. –Bob Wier
If you want to make the statement that "misuse of
antibiotics causes an increase in resistant bacteria", no one will fault you. In fact, you can find a lot of support in conventional medical journals. However, if you write that "antibiotics cause weakened immune systems", you are just blowing smoke. These are two different concepts.<< As far as the nominal subject of the emergence of a new flu strain, I didn’t think anyone was attributing that to human drug use (I thought it was basically a given that flus arise in that area of the world due to close proximity of dense populations and animals), but I suppose that _theoretically_ it’s possible that if the poultry birds in SE Asia are being dosed with antibiotics that might account for it. From a semantic point of view, I would argue that _weakness_ is only meaningful as a relative term, and has no absolute definition in medicine or any other field. Thus an increase in resistent bacteria and other _new_ pathogens that people succumb to _is_ relative weakness. Excuse me if this is too practical a concept for the scientific brain. It is a _myth_ that the immune system is independent of the _person_ and their total environment. Empirical evidence (my own as a Licensed practitioner of TCM) suggests that persons with long history of medical drug use (antibiotics and others) tend to have greater susceptibility to contagion, lower health in general, and far more intractable problems than people who have chosen to emphasise care in lifestyle, diet, etc. . . . Duh, that’s why they were taking the drugs ! . . . To my knowledge there’s no way a correlation with immunity can be established other than by association with bowel dysfunction (dysbiosis) which clearly does follow many drug regimens. But then I’m neither internist nor scientist so you’re free to knock yourself out with rebuttal. But don’t try so hard you spoil your holidays - I’ll be off skiing or something. Peace. Joe Reid, O.M.D.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(APMODELER) writes: As far as the nominal subject of the emergence of a new flu strain, I didn’t think anyone was attributing that to human drug use (I thought it was basically a given that flus arise in that area of the world due to close proximity of dense populations and animals), but I suppose that _theoretically_ it’s possible that if the poultry birds in SE Asia are being dosed with antibiotics that might account for it. But, isn’t the "bird flu" viral, like other flus? How then would antibiotic use contribute to the development of a new flu strain?
It wouldn’t – the Hong Kong bird flu is another great example of emerging diseases among susceptible populations
Can anyone explain to me why so many of the major baddie flus start in the East: Asian flu, Hong Kong flu, bird flu?
They don’t mind offending the East when they drum up vaccine sales. Nothing like some new virus to get everyone running for the medical industry to save them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (APMODELER) writes: It wouldn’t – the Hong Kong bird flu is another great example of emerging diseases among susceptible populations
No. There appears to be a shortage of selenium in the soil there. Selenium appears to slow viral propagation. However, it also appears to reduce human life-span if taken in even slight excess. RS
Can anyone explain to me why so many of the major baddie flus start in the East: Asian flu, Hong Kong flu, bird flu?
I would guess that Africa and Asia have had a human population longer than other parts of the world. Viruses and bacteria may have evolved at a faster rate in these places because of a longer contact with human ‘hosts’. Or…maybe these organisms are being threatened somehow by stresses on their/our habitat…{shrug} Carole
Can anyone explain to me why so many of the major baddie flus start in the East: Asian flu, Hong Kong flu, bird flu? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (APMODELER) writes: It wouldn’t – the Hong Kong bird flu is another great example of emerging diseases among susceptible populations
I believe perhaps you have misunderstood what you have posted. Antibiotics are not "bad" for the immune system; the problem is the overuse of antibiotics for any and everything, which gives the bugs a chance to develop resistance to them. They become "superbugs" which cannot be treated with the customary antibiotics because the bugs are immune to them. And this is, indeed, a BIG problem today.
You shouldn’t use the term "immune" in reference to "bugs" and antibiotics. Antibiotics fail to kill bacteria through bacterial resistance mechanisms. Bacteria do not have immune system that convey immunity to antibiotics. The BIG problem is the selection and spread of "resistant" bacteria.
It may not be "scientifically proven" that the prolonged use of antibiotics weakens the immune system, but it makes infinite common sense,
If "common sense" were really that common, we wouldn’t even have a name for it. In any case, since when are ideas like "antibiotics" and "the immune system" something that you’d come up with using common sense? (I also hate it when ignorant people start tossing around the word "infinite," since they are qualified to use the term, but that’s my math background.) which is what is supposed to separate us from inanimate objects, including the ultra-logical scientific method. Science is linear, whereas knowledge is not, and one must remember that science is only one organization of the available information.
Yeah, but it’s also a very successful one, so let’s not be quite so cavalier about dismissing it, shall we? Do you know enough about it to make these sweeping statements? It’s common sense that you don’t. If one removes the need for a strong immune system, the system no longer has any evolutionary pressure to be ready for all comers. This must, ultimately, result in the loss of potential in the system.
Ah, yet another person who doesn’t know anything much about evolution but is ready to try to haul it into the discussion. The body is under constant assault from microorganisms, including lots of them that are unaffected by antibiotics, and in any case, antibiotics are just an assist — the immune system still has to work, and work well. Antibiotics serve their purpose, but the manner in which they are currently used will inevitably result in loss of immune-response potential in humans, whether the scientific literature "proves" it or not. The argument is logical, not scientific.
Your argument is neither — you’re just making some misguided assertions. In a thousand generations, maybe antibiotic use would have some effect on the human immune system. The idea that it’ll have any effect in the short term is idiotic. These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct. "After all, this is still the land of opportunity. If you know where to look." – Jack Douglas
I believe perhaps you have misunderstood what you have posted. Antibiotics are not "bad" for the immune system; the problem is the overuse of antibiotics for any and everything, which gives the bugs a chance to develop resistance to them. They become "superbugs" which cannot be treated with the customary antibiotics because the bugs are immune to them. And this is, indeed, a BIG problem today. Nancy — Nancy
Actually there is a LOT of research in this area, here are a few one may find at the local library or on the internet: 1.McCue JD. Antibiotic resistance: Why is it increasing in nursing homes? Geriatrics 1997;52:34-43. A paragraph says:: "The precribing of antibiotics for patients who have no fever or other signs or symptoms of infection must stop. The inappropriate use of antibiotics, as well as administration of agents of inadequate duration or strength, can lead to an increased incidence of resistance."
<snip It is certainly true that inappropriate use of antibiotics has led to serious problems of resistance. However, as your above quote mentions, inappropriate use also includes using antibiotics that are not of sufficient strength and not using them for long enough. Antibiotics have to be prescribed more responsibly by doctors. However, it should be made clear to the patient that once the course of antibiotics is started, it should always be completed. Too often patients begin to feel better and decide that no more antibiotics are required. This type of partial treatment of bacterial infections is a major factor in the development of antibiotic resistance.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Feh. You don’t know what I believe, Tom, so don’t go putting words in my mouth. All I said was that I’d never heard that antibiotics are bad for the immune system. Now, would you care to back up your blanket assertion, or do you insist that I blindly believe what you say simply because it’s you who’s saying it? Just like most prescription drugs, using antibiotics for long period of time weakens immune system in humans and animals. I don’t have medical reoprts regarding this situation on hand, but it makes sense that antibiotics are bad. Maybe in some circumstances they are needed, but even that they should not be used for too long period of time. Tom Goodman Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
It may not be "scientifically proven" that the prolonged use of antibiotics weakens the immune system, but it makes infinite common sense, which is what is supposed to separate us from inanimate objects, including the ultra-logical scientific method. Science is linear, whereas knowledge is not, and one must remember that science is only one organization of the available information. If one removes the need for a strong immune system, the system no longer has any evolutionary pressure to be ready for all comers. This must, ultimately, result in the loss of potential in the system. Antibiotics serve their purpose, but the manner in which they are currently used will inevitably result in loss of immune-response potential in humans, whether the scientific literature "proves" it or not. The argument is logical, not scientific. A Sympathetic MD
(APMODELER) writes: As far as the nominal subject of the emergence of a new flu strain, I didn’t think anyone was attributing that to human drug use (I thought it was basically a given that flus arise in that area of the world due to close proximity of dense populations and animals), but I suppose that _theoretically_ it’s possible that if the poultry birds in SE Asia are being dosed with antibiotics that might account for it.
But, isn’t the "bird flu" viral, like other flus? How then would antibiotic use contribute to the development of a new flu strain?
(LFHAMILTON) writes:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(APMODELER) writes: As far as the nominal subject of the emergence of a new flu strain, I didn’t think anyone was attributing that to human drug use (I thought it was basically a given that flus arise in that area of the world due to close proximity of dense populations and animals), but I suppose that _theoretically_ it’s possible that if the poultry birds in SE Asia are being dosed with antibiotics that might account for it. But, isn’t the "bird flu" viral, like other flus? How then would antibiotic use contribute to the development of a new flu strain?
It wouldn’t. The flu is a virus. Antibiotic use anywhere is totally and completely irrelevent to what happens with new strains, mutations, etc, etc. This is nothing you can blame on medications or medical care. New strains of flu generally arise by recombination of various strains of flu virus in birds and pigs, which it also infects besides people. For obvious reasons, such strains generally come from Asia, where birds (ducks, etc), pigs, and people live in close proximity. For example, an infected duck or chicken defecates in a rice paddy, an infected pig roots around in there, and ends up living in the back yard of some peasant family, where the hybrid virus is passed on. Bingo, next world epidemic. Steve Harris, M.D.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Feh. You don’t know what I believe, Tom, so don’t go putting words in my mouth. All I said was that I’d never heard that antibiotics are bad for the immune system. Now, would you care to back up your blanket assertion, or do you insist that I blindly believe what you say simply because it’s you who’s saying it? Just like most prescription drugs, using antibiotics for long period of time weakens immune system in humans and animals. I don’t have medical reoprts regarding this situation on hand, but it makes sense that antibiotics are bad. Maybe in some circumstances they are needed, but even that they should not be used for too long period of time. Tom Goodman Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Using them for too short a time is our current problem. —
Just like most prescription drugs, using antibiotics for long period of time weakens immune system in humans and animals.
about antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. Um, Walter, resistance to antibiotics in _bacteria_ has nothing to do with "weakened immune systems" in _humans and animals_. If you want to make the statement that "misuse of antibiotics causes an increase in resistant bacteria", no one will fault you. In fact, you can find a lot of support in conventional medical journals. However, if you write that "antibiotics cause weakened immune systems", you are just blowing smoke. These are two different concepts.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(JXBrown) writes: Just like most prescription drugs, using antibiotics for long period of time weakens immune system in humans and animals. references about antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. Um, Walter, resistance to antibiotics in _bacteria_ has nothing to do with "weakened immune systems" in _humans and animals_. If you want to make the statement that "misuse of antibiotics causes an increase in resistant bacteria", no one will fault you. In fact, you can find a lot of support in conventional medical journals. However, if you write that "antibiotics cause weakened immune systems", you are just blowing smoke. These are two different concepts.
Except for just one case, which should always be kept in mind: Your gut flora are a part of your defense against foreign bugs, if not strictly a part of your "immune system" (semantic point, there). If you are taking an antibiotic, this causes you to be selectively susceptable to organisms which infect through the gut, such as E. Coli, which happen to be resistant to that antibiotic. This, due to the fact that you’re providing a selective pressure to help them in their competition with your other gut organisms. I don’t know of any other case where this happens, but it’s a theoretic possibility for vaginal and superficial skin infections (impetigo) also, I suppose. Any place where you’re partly protected by your own flora. It would not hold for (say) lung infections. But might for sinus, etc. It’s not a weakening of the immune system by the antibiotic, but it has the same effect. And of course, it only lasts for as long as the antibiotic is taken, so it’s not a LASTING effect, as the alternatives have it. And, finally, it requires an attacking organism which has the right antibiotic resistant genes. Steve
Feh. You don’t know what I believe, Tom, so don’t go putting words in my mouth. All I said was that I’d never heard that antibiotics are bad for the immune system. Now, would you care to back up your blanket assertion, or do you insist that I blindly believe what you say simply because it’s you who’s saying it?
Just like most prescription drugs, using antibiotics for long period of time weakens immune system in humans and animals. I don’t have medical reoprts regarding this situation on hand, but it makes sense that antibiotics are bad. Maybe in some circumstances they are needed, but even that they should not be used for too long period of time. Tom Goodman Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Just like most prescription drugs, using antibiotics for long period of time weakens immune system in humans and animals.
LOL. Any proof of that? Jet Silverman To email me, remove the x. (I won’t buy from anyone who sends me ads.) Bah Humbug
Just like most prescription drugs, using antibiotics for long period of time weakens immune system in humans and animals. I don’t have medical reoprts regarding this situation on hand, but it makes sense that antibiotics are bad. Maybe in some circumstances they are needed, but even that they should not be used for too long period of time.
Actually there is a LOT of research in this area, here are a few one may find at the local library or on the internet: 1.McCue JD. Antibiotic resistance: Why is it increasing in nursing homes? Geriatrics 1997;52:34-43. A paragraph says:: "The precribing of antibiotics for patients who have no fever or other signs or symptoms of infection must stop. The inappropriate use of antibiotics, as well as administration of agents of inadequate duration or strength, can lead to an increased incidence of resistance." Several articles may be found at the Scientific American site http://www.sciam.com/explorations/072197bacteria/mirsky.html Here are a few: "Could antibacterial soaps lead to resistant strains?" "Why is it only recently that antibiotic-resistant bacteria have become the focus of alarm?" from Scientific American’s Ask the Experts "Shaking the Ebola Tree", by Gunjan Sinha and Corey S. Powell; Scientific American Exploration, August 26, 1996 Links from that page: Outbreak, a compendium of the latest information on emerging diseases Society of Infectious Diseases Pharmacists Home Page "Bacteria Blasters", news story from the American Chemical Society Antibiotic Resistance References from Harvey Mudd College From The New England Med Journal we have" Antibiotic Overuse September 30, 1997 " Most people are aware that growing bacterial resistance to antibiotics makes it essential that they be prescribed only when absolutely necessary. But knowing when to see your doctor for an infection that could be treated with antibiotics can be tricky