Question:

"John Jones" <jiversjiv…@btopenworld.com> wrote in message

news:cmgmji$ff1$1@titan.btinternet.com… > Yes, Yes, and yes. Where’s YOUR point by the way?

If you have a gay family tree which side is the name on?

Response:

> If you have a gay family tree which side is the name on?

I thought family trees came down to having sprogs. JJ Immortalist <Reanimater_2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:j-6dnak7T8OZQhbcRVn-oQ@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "John Jones" <jiversjiv…@btopenworld.com> wrote in message > news:cmgmji$ff1$1@titan.btinternet.com… > > Yes, Yes, and yes. Where’s YOUR point by the way? > If you have a gay family tree which side is the name on?

Response:

Yes, Yes, and yes. Where’s YOUR point by the way? JJ Immortalist <Reanimater_2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:i_ydnehL0ZjAVBbcRVn-gw@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How would Gay Marriages Change these Universal Human Traditions of Family > Descent? > Kinship is the most basic principle of organizing individuals into social groups, > roles, and categories. Some form of organization based on parentage and marriage > is present in every human society. In modern industrial communities family > structures have been weakened by the dominance of the market economy and the > provision of state organized social services. However, the nuclear family > household is still the fundamental institution responsible for rearing children > and organizing consumption. In nonindustrial contexts, kinship units normally > have a much wider array of functions. They often serve as basic units of > production, political representation and even as religious bodies for the worship > of spiritual beings, who are themselves considered members of the kingroup. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/index.html > …kinship is constructed from a set of categories, groups, relationships, and > behaviours based upon culturally determined beliefs and values concerning human > biology and reproduction. Accordingly, an underlying common framework is present > but is substantially modified by culture and ideology. > Universal features of kinship systems that have been proposed include the > following: > 1. A lengthy infant maturation period that requires a major commitment from one > and usually both parents to nurture and educate dependent children, > 2. The presence of a marital bond that creates an enduring and socially regulated > sexual and domestic relationship between two or more people, > 3. A division of labor based on gender, > 4. A prohibition on intercourse and marriage between close kin, which creates a > widely articulated network of relationships between individuals related by > marriage. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/fund1.html > Unilineal Kinship and Descent > Many societies construct kinship groupings, roles, and relationships by tracing > descent exclusively through the male – patrilineal – or female – matrilineal – > line. The resulting units are called unilineal descent groups, either > patrilineages or matrilineages according to the prevailing descent rule. > Unilineal kinship institutions occur at over twice the incidence of cognatic ones > among the world’s cultures. In many societies, unilineal descent groups assume > important corporate functions such as land ownership, political representation > and mutual aid and support. > Patrilineal societies are much more common than matrilineal ones, occurring at > roughly twice the incidence and accounting for 60% of all unilineal systems and > 40% descent systems (unilineal and cognatic) thoughout the world. They may be > familiar to you from the Bible, (the "tribes" of Israel were patrilineages) and > ancient Greek and Roman family organization. Matrilineal systems are less > frequent but are still ethnographically important. The powerful West African > Ashanti kingdom developed within a matrilineal society. Accordingly, the heir to > the throne is not the king’s (Asantehene’s) own child but his sister’s son. Early > British emissaries to Ashanti learned about this family system the hard way. They > supported several of the Asantehene’s sons to be educated in England only to > realize that the allies they had so carefully cultivated were not in line to > assume the throne. > A third unilineal form, dual descent, involves the presence of significant > patrilineal and matrilineal groupings in single society. Their occurance is > relatively rare. > Cognatic Descent Systems > Unilineal kinship makes a direct and simple assignment of social statuses, > rights, and duties by confining transmission to a single descent line. By > contrast, nonunilineal, or cognatic, systems allow for the construction of social > groups and categories through any or all of an individual’s acknowledged > relatives beginning with both his/her father and mother. The open nature of > cognatic organization leads to greater complexities and wider variations than are > normally apparent in partilineal or matrilineal forms. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/unilineal/ > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/cognatic/ > Post-marital residence rules specify where a person resides after marriage and, > accordingly, influence the structure and size of household units. Anthropologists > have identified several basic rules and related domestic forms. However, > adherence to a specific residence rules involves many complications and > consequences and a firm classification of a particular society’s arrangements is > sometime ambiguous. Accordingly, the form and dynamics of household must be > understood in terms of houselhold flexibility, ideal vs actual arrangements, and > the domestic cycle. The following general patterns have been observed in varying > socieities around the world. > 1. Neolocal Residence > This system is determined by a rule that each spouse leaves his or her family of > origin and jointly forms a new household, which develops as nuclear family. This > is of course the basic pattern in modern industrial societies. > 2. Patrilocal Residence > A patrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a man remains in his father’s > household while his wife leaves her family to move in with him. As children are > born, they are added to the paternal unit. The result is a patrilocal extended > family, in which three or more generations of related men live together to form a > shallow patrilineage. An alternate designation, virilocal, refers to a simpler > rule that a wife must move to her husband’s residence. > 3. Matrilocal Residence > A matrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a woman remains in her mother’s > household while her husband leaves his family to move in with her. As children > are born, they are added to the maternal unit. The result is a matrilocal > extended family, in which three or more generations of related women live > together to form a shallow matrilineage. An alternate designation, uxorilocal, > refers to a simpler rule that a husband must move to his wife’s residence. > 4. Matrifocal Residence > A matrifocal family consists of a woman and her children and sometimes her > daughter’s children, without coresident husbands or other adult men. This pattern > is not usually an expression of a rule or cultural preference but results from > economic conditions in which a man is unable to support a family. The household > form is different from a matrilocal one, in which wives and husbands are > coresident. > 5. Avunculocal Residence > The avunculocal rule is more complicated than the previous ones, since two > residence changes are involved. Household formation begins with a virilocal rule, > placing a married woman in her husband’s household, where their children are > raised. Upon reaching maturity, the men must relocate to their mother’s brother’s > household, the actual avunculocal move. The result is an avunculocal extended > family consisting of one or more elder men, their sister’s sons, and the wives > and immature children of all the married men. > 6. Ambilocal Residence > In a ambilocal pattern a married couple decides whether to join either the > husband’s or wife’s household of origin. According to the choice made in the > previous generations, they may reside with either spouse’s father or mother. The > result is an ambilocal extended family. > 7. Natalocal Residence > The natalocal rule specifies that each partner remains with his and her own > families of residence after marriage. If children remain in their mother’s > household the result will be the formation of domestic matrilineages to which all > male and female residents belong. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/residence/rules.html

Response:

How would Gay Marriages Change these Universal Human Traditions of Family Descent? Kinship is the most basic principle of organizing individuals into social groups, roles, and categories. Some form of organization based on parentage and marriage is present in every human society. In modern industrial communities family structures have been weakened by the dominance of the market economy and the provision of state organized social services. However, the nuclear family household is still the fundamental institution responsible for rearing children and organizing consumption. In nonindustrial contexts, kinship units normally have a much wider array of functions. They often serve as basic units of production, political representation and even as religious bodies for the worship of spiritual beings, who are themselves considered members of the kingroup. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/index.html …kinship is constructed from a set of categories, groups, relationships, and behaviours based upon culturally determined beliefs and values concerning human biology and reproduction. Accordingly, an underlying common framework is present but is substantially modified by culture and ideology. Universal features of kinship systems that have been proposed include the following: 1. A lengthy infant maturation period that requires a major commitment from one and usually both parents to nurture and educate dependent children, 2. The presence of a marital bond that creates an enduring and socially regulated sexual and domestic relationship between two or more people, 3. A division of labor based on gender, 4. A prohibition on intercourse and marriage between close kin, which creates a widely articulated network of relationships between individuals related by marriage. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/fund1.html Unilineal Kinship and Descent Many societies construct kinship groupings, roles, and relationships by tracing descent exclusively through the male – patrilineal – or female – matrilineal – line. The resulting units are called unilineal descent groups, either patrilineages or matrilineages according to the prevailing descent rule. Unilineal kinship institutions occur at over twice the incidence of cognatic ones among the world’s cultures. In many societies, unilineal descent groups assume important corporate functions such as land ownership, political representation and mutual aid and support. Patrilineal societies are much more common than matrilineal ones, occurring at roughly twice the incidence and accounting for 60% of all unilineal systems and 40% descent systems (unilineal and cognatic) thoughout the world. They may be familiar to you from the Bible, (the "tribes" of Israel were patrilineages) and ancient Greek and Roman family organization. Matrilineal systems are less frequent but are still ethnographically important. The powerful West African Ashanti kingdom developed within a matrilineal society. Accordingly, the heir to the throne is not the king’s (Asantehene’s) own child but his sister’s son. Early British emissaries to Ashanti learned about this family system the hard way. They supported several of the Asantehene’s sons to be educated in England only to realize that the allies they had so carefully cultivated were not in line to assume the throne. A third unilineal form, dual descent, involves the presence of significant patrilineal and matrilineal groupings in single society. Their occurance is relatively rare. Cognatic Descent Systems Unilineal kinship makes a direct and simple assignment of social statuses, rights, and duties by confining transmission to a single descent line. By contrast, nonunilineal, or cognatic, systems allow for the construction of social groups and categories through any or all of an individual’s acknowledged relatives beginning with both his/her father and mother. The open nature of cognatic organization leads to greater complexities and wider variations than are normally apparent in partilineal or matrilineal forms. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/unilineal/ http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/cognatic/ Post-marital residence rules specify where a person resides after marriage and, accordingly, influence the structure and size of household units. Anthropologists have identified several basic rules and related domestic forms. However, adherence to a specific residence rules involves many complications and consequences and a firm classification of a particular society’s arrangements is sometime ambiguous. Accordingly, the form and dynamics of household must be understood in terms of houselhold flexibility, ideal vs actual arrangements, and the domestic cycle. The following general patterns have been observed in varying socieities around the world. 1. Neolocal Residence This system is determined by a rule that each spouse leaves his or her family of origin and jointly forms a new household, which develops as nuclear family. This is of course the basic pattern in modern industrial societies. 2. Patrilocal Residence A patrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a man remains in his father’s household while his wife leaves her family to move in with him. As children are born, they are added to the paternal unit. The result is a patrilocal extended family, in which three or more generations of related men live together to form a shallow patrilineage. An alternate designation, virilocal, refers to a simpler rule that a wife must move to her husband’s residence. 3. Matrilocal Residence A matrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a woman remains in her mother’s household while her husband leaves his family to move in with her. As children are born, they are added to the maternal unit. The result is a matrilocal extended family, in which three or more generations of related women live together to form a shallow matrilineage. An alternate designation, uxorilocal, refers to a simpler rule that a husband must move to his wife’s residence. 4. Matrifocal Residence A matrifocal family consists of a woman and her children and sometimes her daughter’s children, without coresident husbands or other adult men. This pattern is not usually an expression of a rule or cultural preference but results from economic conditions in which a man is unable to support a family. The household form is different from a matrilocal one, in which wives and husbands are coresident. 5. Avunculocal Residence The avunculocal rule is more complicated than the previous ones, since two residence changes are involved. Household formation begins with a virilocal rule, placing a married woman in her husband’s household, where their children are raised. Upon reaching maturity, the men must relocate to their mother’s brother’s household, the actual avunculocal move. The result is an avunculocal extended family consisting of one or more elder men, their sister’s sons, and the wives and immature children of all the married men. 6. Ambilocal Residence In a ambilocal pattern a married couple decides whether to join either the husband’s or wife’s household of origin. According to the choice made in the previous generations, they may reside with either spouse’s father or mother. The result is an ambilocal extended family. 7. Natalocal Residence The natalocal rule specifies that each partner remains with his and her own families of residence after marriage. If children remain in their mother’s household the result will be the formation of domestic matrilineages to which all male and female residents belong. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/residence/rules.html

Response:

Question:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -grandwazoo wrote… Then you should have no trouble naming a few more presidents with a track record of 80+ deaths, most of them mysterious or unexplained, surrounding their political career. What’s that you say? You can not? Well now there’s a real shocker… http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm What’s that you say? Not debunked because the story is good it must be true! Not debunked by snopes or anyone else. They make the same vapid "can’t happen" and "everyone else" assertions you parrot, but conspicuously fail to either address a single specific case, or offer any *other* person with the same track record to back up that claim. Just like you. There are other possible explanations. A "v" appears on a copy of a copy. Right, the document has to be at least two generations from original. Who knows. ROTFL!! You haven’t a single **clue***, do you? The "V" in question is a decoration that’s given in conjunction with other ribbons to denote special circumstances. Kerry claims to have received a "V" with a decoration that he couldn’t have, as the Navy doesn’t issue the two together. Period. They never have. Ever. Kerry claims, OK put up. Not what people say he said, let us see the quote or disappear in shame. The "quote" is on his forged DD-214. It reads "SILVER STAR WITH COMBAT ‘V’". That document is freely available on his own web site… http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/DD214.pdf See page 2. It’s impossible, as there’s only 10 commendations that are authorized by the Navy to be embellished by the Combat V. And the Silver Star isn’t one of them, basically because it would be redundant. Sorry about your luck and all, but there it is for you, in stark black and white. Sorry to inform you but the Navy stands by their authenticity. You want it not to be true. the man is a genuine war hero and even your president has continued to say this is so. You don’t even have a clue what the hell were talking about, and you pretend to know what the Navy thinks on the issue?? Now *that’s* just too amusing for words…   The Navy documents refute accusations in television and Internet advertisements by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group funded by No, they don’t. They fully support the fact that not only is Kerry’s political career built on a lie, his forged citations are fallacious and quite probably a felony offense. So I do have a clue and you don’t. You still amused? Admit I’m right or go away. What misguided stretch of illogic makes you believe I’d have any desire to join you in a lie, or allow your lies to go unanswered? Solid journalism? Like your little Rumsfeld fiasco? <laughing The original report say as much. Yes. Much falsehood and speculation, as the actual findings of the investigation prompted by such claims proves. the finding’s you suggested I look up, and cite. *shrug* Again, sorry about your luck but the facts seem to contradict your rather warped concept of reality. http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=3029 This should be sufficient to make the necessary connections. Halliburton and its subsidiaries have been awarded altogether about $8 billion in Iraq war-related contracts. They have contributed $2.4 million to President Bush

Question:

I may have this confused with another post, but here goes. Valuating a business for a divorce is a nightmare. Judges HATE it. It often costs more to get an honest appraisal than what you "might" gain. I gave up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done? I am also looking for some support – those of you who are done with your mess, was there anything that you mistakenly left out – if so, can that one portion be opened up? Why doesn’t he get into trouble with all these contempt charges, he lied on his financial, and now this, will he get any kind of repercussions at all??? I can’t really say what I mean (the ambien kicked in FAST ) but I hope you can get at least some sort of a  clue as to what I need…. any advice?

Response:

I’m coming into this thread a bit late, Christi, but it seems to me that a settlement agreement would have to have it spelled out, and not left hanging. Doesn’t that make sense to you.  Try to stand back, and look at from the legal point of view.  JMO though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Thank you all for your support – I feel better since someone actually ANSWERED me : ) First, my stbx is in contempt because the judge ordered him to have all the paperwork in to the appraisers by July 16 – he just turned it in to them on August 6 – so I have been trying to get the damn thing appraised – My money is paid and currently in escrow… Second, my lawyer knows all about this, and I do have an appt. with her on Tues or Wed. (my book is downstairs) – I am definitely going to push for NOT signing anything pertaining to the business, if I can…. Now, can the judge keep one part of the divorce open? If we agree on everything else (yeah, picture THAT with a Kodak!) but the business, can we just keep the business portion of the divorce open?  I KNOW this judge wants the case done and over with (like I don’t) and I fear he is going to push for an agreement – can I refuse with no repercussions? I certainly don’t want to end up in jail because of my stbx’s neglect in following the judges order in the first place…..    I should be HAPPY thi is almost over – truthfully, I am scared to DEATH that I am going to get screwed (and not in a good way) just because this judge wants to close the case….. sigh :::: — Christi Stampin’ Up! Representative Art Without Anxiety www.ArtWithoutAnxiety.com ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^< I may have this confused with another post, but here goes. Valuating a business for a divorce is a nightmare. Judges HATE it. It often costs more to get an honest appraisal than what you "might" gain. I gave up. x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done? I am also looking for some support – those of you who are done with your mess, was there anything that you mistakenly left out – if so, can that one portion be opened up? Why doesn’t he get into trouble with all these contempt charges, he lied on his financial, and now this, will he get any kind of repercussions at all??? I can’t really say what I mean (the ambien kicked in FAST ) but I hope you can get at least some sort of a  clue as to what I need…. any advice?

Response:

Christi, You will survive this.  The judge and the courts don’t want to waste time if someone hasn’t done their part in preparing for court.  The judge will see that he wasn’t prepared.  Make sure you have a good lawyer.  One that looks out for what is best for you.  ALso, if there are kids involved, what is best for the kids.   Susan

Response:

I’m coming into this thread a bit late, Christi, but it seems to me that a settlement agreement would have to have it spelled out, and not left hanging.  Doesn’t that make sense to you.  Try to stand back, and look at from the legal point of view.  JMO though. Wow, an on topic, helpful post from Bill!!!

It must be the drugs…..ummm, I meant meds…

Response:

You don’t have to agree to anything.  Just say, "I don’t agree."  The judge cannot require you to settle, but it is possible that he could think that you are obstructionist in a matter where who-is-cooperative could make a difference: Child custody and support.  Ask your lawyer. Judges in Florida ~can~ bifurcate a divorce proceeding by granting the divorce and holding a separate trial on all other issues.  Not sure about yours.  You need to ask your lawyer. [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you all for your support – I feel better since someone actually ANSWERED me : ) First, my stbx is in contempt because the judge ordered him to have all the paperwork in to the appraisers by July 16 – he just turned it in to them on August 6 – so I have been trying to get the damn thing appraised – My money is paid and currently in escrow… Second, my lawyer knows all about this, and I do have an appt. with her on Tues or Wed. (my book is downstairs) – I am definitely going to push for NOT signing anything pertaining to the business, if I can…. Now, can the judge keep one part of the divorce open? If we agree on everything else (yeah, picture THAT with a Kodak!) but the business, can we just keep the business portion of the divorce open?  I KNOW this judge wants the case done and over with (like I don’t) and I fear he is going to push for an agreement – can I refuse with no repercussions? I certainly don’t want to end up in jail because of my stbx’s neglect in following the judges order in the first place…..    I should be HAPPY thi is almost over – truthfully, I am scared to DEATH that I am going to get screwed (and not in a good way) just because this judge wants to close the case…..

Response:

x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium?

Maybe a Xanax?  (just kidding) My situation was so different that i don’t have any advice.   But if you need a shoulder to cry on or a really dumb joke to give you a respite from worrying, let me know.  

Response:

I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done?

Judges like to push for agreements — it helps get them to the golf course b4 the sun goes down.  They also like to close files.  So the Judge could make his/her own decision as to the value of the business based on the testimony presented, even though your s2bx stonewalled.  I would hope that your lawyer has subpoenaed the business’ accountants, tax preparers, records custodian and any piece of paper that may pertain to its value.  Time is woefully short. Check with him on Monday.  [R]

Response:

Well – simply refuse to sign any and all paperwork, holding up the divorce until he does what he is susposed to do. OR talk to your lawyer about this. Deb

Response:

These are issues you need to confront your attorney about. How can you tell what is an equitable settlement without all values in front of you? Make an appointment to sit down and talk to your attorney face to face and get your questions answered. You should know the value of the business, so why don’t you? Why wasn’t a valuation done? Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done? I am also looking for some support – those of you who are done with your mess, was there anything that you mistakenly left out – if so, can that one portion be opened up? Why doesn’t he get into trouble with all these contempt charges, he lied on his financial, and now this, will he get any kind of repercussions at all??? I can’t really say what I mean (the ambien kicked in FAST ) but I hope you can get at least some sort of a  clue as to what I need…. any advice? — Christi Stampin’ Up! Representative Art Without Anxiety www.ArtWithoutAnxiety.com ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^<

Response:

Question:

I am in the eyeglass business. I once had an attorney client complain to me that the industry had a lot of nerve charging so much for "a nickel’s worth of plastic". He was judging what we should charge based solely on his perceived cost of the ‘materials’ we supply and that only. I said to him that, based on his own logic, he should charge zero for what he does since he supplies no materials at all to his clients. Of course, he became indignant at that suggestion, and remained defiantly stubborn in his belief that our ‘professional knowledge’ was not equal to his, nor that our material costs, manufacturing time, advertising, insurance, rent, employee, expenses, our need to make a profit, etc. should count. Clearly, he had no business acumen.

No.  He’s an attorney.  He doesn’t care.  It’s his nature not to give a f*** about anyone but himself. —  Dave T  DT’s Guitar and Band Page:   http://dbtaylor.topcities.com/guitar1.html  Dave’s Shameless Page-O-Guitar Leads:   http://users3.ev1.net/~dbtaylor/  Above address somewhat spam deterrant (duh).  To reply in person, email dbtaylor at ev1 dot net.

Response:

says… I’d go with that – the markup at retail is about 50% of retail , or $500 of a $1000 geetar Gibson will also markup, about the same – 50% of the $500 price it charges the retailer which will be $250. Therefore, whats left is $250, which is the manufacturing cost.

I’m surprised that the retail markup is so high. I thought selling guitars would be more cut throat than that. You know how customers like to haggle when it comes to price. So I kind of figured that the markup would have been more like 30% of retail before any haggling or discounts. However, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if MSRP (Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price) is at least double the wholesale price.  

Response:

I’m surprised that the retail markup is so high. I thought selling guitars would be more cut throat than that. You know how customers like to haggle when it comes to price. So I kind of figured that the markup would have been more like 30% of retail before any haggling or discounts.

If the retail market for guitars is anything like the retail market for computers/software (dunno if it is, I just have experience with Comp retail), the margin is a lot smaller than even 30%.  In the computer market, it’s anywhere from 5-10%, at the most.  And you’re right, the MSRP is SEVERELY overstated, on just about everything.

Response:

I’d go with that – the markup at retail is about 50% of retail , or $500 of a $1000 geetar Gibson will also markup, about the same – 50% of the $500 price it charges the retailer which will be $250. Therefore, whats left is $250, which is the manufacturing cost. You can use that rule of thumb for any priced guitar, I guess although the real expensive ones will probably hhave a larger markup percentage.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the store pays half of retail..roughly a $1000 for a Standard LP, then at the most Gibson has $500 into that guitar, since they are this huge mass manufacturer I would guess in reality they really only have $250 into said guitar. Figure that Nike only has $2.50 or so into a pair of $100 shoes, nice profit margin, huh? But since Gibson LP is a "made in America" product the manufacturing cost is gonna be higher because they are paying an American laborer, not a 10 yro Korean kid .                             DEMENTED Hey Demented.  Where do you get this figure? How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question. $250 American dollars.                        DEMENTED

Response:

Apart from the fact that a calculation like does not take into account the development costs, i.e. prototyping, development of machines, transferring prototype experience into mass production, etc. The material for a LP is probably in the $100 ballpark but you’re not going to make a useful guitar at such a cost without decent mass production. So yes, the question makes no sense.

No sense whatsoever.  Nor is the question a likely candidate for a real answer unless there’s a Gibson accountant out there willing to risk his neck for violating a non-disclosure agreement he prolly signed on employment. I dunno – this one had an odor-de-bait from the get-go. —  Dave T  DT’s Guitar and Band Page:   http://dbtaylor.topcities.com/guitar1.html  Dave’s Shameless Page-O-Guitar Leads:   http://users3.ev1.net/~dbtaylor/  Above address somewhat spam deterrant (duh).  To reply in person, email dbtaylor at ev1 dot net.

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If the store pays half of retail..roughly a $1000 for a Standard LP, then at the most Gibson has $500 into that guitar, since they are this huge mass manufacturer I would guess in reality they really only have $250 into said guitar. Figure that Nike only has $2.50 or so into a pair of $100 shoes, nice profit margin, huh? But since Gibson LP is a "made in America" product the manufacturing cost is gonna be higher because they are paying an American laborer, not a 10 yro Korean kid .                             DEMENTED

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Demented.  Where do you get this figure? How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question. $250 American dollars.                        DEMENTED

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Hey Demented.  Where do you get this figure?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question. $250 American dollars.                        DEMENTED

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Wow, a Gibson Les Paul for $5.00!

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I think marginal cost would be good to use – the cost to produce 1 more unit. cb

Oh man…I’m having intermediate macro flashbacks… Scott

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I’m sort of assuming that you’re looking for justification on the $1849 (musicians friend 2003 gear preview catalog price) pricetag.  It’s really a cost accounting question and the answer depends on your methodology.  I can’t seem to put my hands on my old textbook at the moment but I’ll try dig it up and post the actual equation. It seems pretty hard to justify almost 2K for a Gibson when you can buy a McInturff for less money.  But I digress…The price of the guitar has to include all of the overhead (non-production related costs i.e.: marketing, R&D, sales, accounting, employee benefits…it goes on and on) as well as the manufacturing costs. Someone else mentioned the marginal cost, and I think that’s really an economist looking at an accounting question (no disrespect meant, my degree is in economics).  What you’re asking is a very complicated question and one that’s really impossible to answer accurately without a look at Gibson’s books. If you really want an estimate, hit eBay and find the raw mahogany boards and maple top,  price the hardware from a luthier’s supply house and then comes the hard part…estimating the labor.  I think, and it’s just my opinion based on MY EXPERIENCES in manufacturing, the most expensive component is often labor.  From there, your guess is as good as mine on what a place like Gibson pays when they buy thousands of tuning machines and thousands of knobs etc… Is it worth 2K when you compare it to an Epi that goes for $499?  That’s a recipe for a flame war and has been debated over and over here and in the other guitar newsgroups.  Bottom line, it’s worth what someone will pay for it. Scott

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How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question.

Only they know…obviously. -=weasel=-

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They charge that much because they can. A guitar is worth however much you can get for it. If they weren’t worth that much they wouldn’t sell for that much and Gibson would have to lower the price. I personally own a Gibson Les Paul Custom and If I had the money I would gladly pay 2K for another one. I think they are worth it.

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I agree. The ‘58 reissue I have is without a doubt one of the best Les Pauls I have ever owned, the second best being a previous ‘58 reissue I owned. I would get another if I could afford it (and pull it off without getting a divorce in the process). The cost is bordering on the ridiculous (the ’59’s I looked at were a couple of grand more, and I felt the ’58’s were better guitars), but I feel the one I have is certainly worth it, much more so than the PRS CU 24 I bought earlier this year. JT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They charge that much because they can. A guitar is worth however much you can get for it. If they weren’t worth that much they wouldn’t sell for that much and Gibson would have to lower the price. I personally own a Gibson Les Paul Custom and If I had the money I would gladly pay 2K for another one. I think they are worth it.

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I won’t mention who said that but… At a very well know music store a well respected owner I know said that he was at a "martini" lunch and they were discussing price subject indirectly when he asked the gibson rep what they where going to charge for a certain "Les Paul". The reply (under intoxication I might add) was that they basically sold them for whatever they thought they could get for them and they are priced to whatever the market will bear and that the actual cost of the guitar was rather immaterial. What that really means is, sure they could charge less, but why should they? I seem to remember that Gibson was having financial issues either in the late 70’s or early 80’s don’t remember which. I know an old Gibson Les Paul Standard I had from that era was made from Many Many pieces of wood. That doesn’t answer you original question but I thought this was a very interesting info. -ag

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question.

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They charge that much because they can. A guitar is worth however much you can get for it. If they weren’t worth that much they wouldn’t sell for that much and Gibson would have to lower the price. I personally own a Gibson Les Paul Custom and If I had the money I would gladly pay 2K for another one. I think they are worth it.

Agreed. Supply and demand. I was fortunate to get my LP back in the ’70s; it seemed outragelously expensive then but a bargain today. Not that I would ever part with it. I just bought a Strat and I love it for its unique quality and playability but I still love my LP, it plays differently and that’s OK with me. (Why does one have to be better; its like comparing Liz Hurley and Cameron Diaz – pointless.) — ‘ John Mishefske

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How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question.

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How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question.

Are you talking about straight manufacturing costs or total costs including office, shipping, advertising, etc.? — Thad Eckhoff aka Spyder Barques

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I think marginal cost would be good to use – the cost to produce 1 more unit. cb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question. Are you talking about straight manufacturing costs or total costs including office, shipping, advertising, etc.? — Thad Eckhoff aka Spyder Barques

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How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les  Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question. Are you talking about straight manufacturing costs or total costs including office, shipping, advertising, etc.?

Straight manufacturing costs.

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How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question.

$250 American dollars.                        DEMENTED

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I think Spyder’s is an excellent question and his points should definitely be taken into consideration. The cost of producing one unit (as one poster termed it, "marginal cost") is quite misleading and actually provides no useful information that I can think of. Unfortunately, we don’t know what the original poster was trying to learn when he asked the question. But I just sense that giving him that "marginal cost" response would not lead him to understand anything. I am in the eyeglass business. I once had an attorney client complain to me that the industry had a lot of nerve charging so much for "a nickel’s worth of plastic". He was judging what we should charge based solely on his perceived cost of the ‘materials’ we supply and that only. I said to him that, based on his own logic, he should charge zero for what he does since he supplies no materials at all to his clients. Of course, he became indignant at that suggestion, and remained defiantly stubborn in his belief that our ‘professional knowledge’ was not equal to his, nor that our material costs, manufacturing time, advertising, insurance, rent, employee, expenses, our need to make a profit, etc. should count. Clearly, he had no business acumen. Some budget pairs of glasses cost as little as $5.00 in materials to make, but certainly no one could sell them for $5.00, nor even $10 or $20 and survive – not enough dollar profit in a sale that takes so long to sell (showing frames, discussing lens options, etc.) and which then requires 10-20 minutes to make. So, knowing that the single unit glasses only ‘cost’ $5.00 doesn’t tell anyone anything that’s useful. Same with guitars. My speech for the day!  :-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much does it actually cost Gibson to make a Les Paul? Lets stick with the Les Paul Standard for this question. Are you talking about straight manufacturing costs or total costs including office, shipping, advertising, etc.? — Thad Eckhoff aka Spyder Barques

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Question:

I have added a 12 x 20 room.  I plan on adding 12"ceramic tile on the floor. If I lay the tile on a 45 instead of square will it require me to use more tile?  Any pointers on how to do this will be appreciated.

Theretically 12×20 is 12×20. Practically… well, you’ll mismeasure some, miscut some, and otherwise have more wastage if doing it on a 45. Let’s face it, most people just aren’t BUILT right to do things on a 45. I get cross-eyed looking at tiles on a 45, and I’m just LOOKING at them, not placing them! So yeah, you’ll need more tile. — There is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress.                                               – Mark Twain

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Mr Fixit writes: The cut-offs from one side should fit into the other side, so that it takes the same number of tiles any way you lay them.

Uh, you’ve done this before?  Properly? Generally one prefers to adjust the starting course location such that edge pieces are all bigger than a half a tile, as much as possible or practical.   That means you have waste all along the edge.  You only need the "same number" if you’re willing to use a lot of tiny pieces instead of wasting them.  But that makes for a weaker, and most would say uglier, job.

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Mr Fixit writes: The cut-offs from one side should fit into the other side, so that it takes the same number of tiles any way you lay them. Uh, you’ve done this before?  Properly? Generally one prefers to adjust the starting course location such that edge pieces are all bigger than a half a tile, as much as possible or practical. That means you have waste all along the edge.  You only need the "same number" if you’re willing to use a lot of tiny pieces instead of wasting them.  But that makes for a weaker, and most would say uglier, job.

Maybe I should have started out by saying: I am not a ceramic tile installer, nor have I ever played one on TV. And I am certainly not here to argue ignorantly with any experienced contributer to the group. I fully expected, and still do, that our resident tile expert will step in and add the voice of practical experience. Seeing that you are in the pool business, I’m sure that your practical experience also sheds the light of reality on any cognative reasoning I might postulate. I intended my reply to be a statement of theory, as indicated by my opening line. LOL!!" I intended that line to acknowledge that every job is its own animal and that what I was about to say would not necessarily apply to his, or even most jobs. I base my theory on geometry and experience in other rectangular coverings where it seems to hold up. So, for my own clarification and enlightenment, let’s deal with that nonexistent perfectly square room. Admittedly, in my example, I am not accounting for 12" nominal tiles having grout lines increasing the area of coverage. Let’s say that I have a room that is 13 feet by 13 feet. And I wish to lay 12" tiles. If I lay my starter course in the center of the room on a 45 deg. angle to the walls, will I not be cutting each tile in half diagonally when I meet the wall? I realize that you have far more experience in laying tile but just to unconfuse my usually logical mind could you please explain (in layman’s terms) how you would adjust the starter course such that you would wind up with more than half a tile on one wall without causing the tile on the opposite wall to be less than half a tile? Of course I know that the size of the tiles will effect the layout and the proportion of a tile that fits where the wall is met. As will the size and configuration of the room, but that doesn’t change the fact that moving something away from one wall necessitates moving it closer to the other. In my reply I also stated: "You will surely have breakage and I’d be surprised if the room is perfectly square so I’m sure you will need extra tiles to actually get the job done. Like, say……. one extra row. That should leave you with some leftovers for future repairs." with the tile size will most likely not land the edge tiles on exactly half a tile, but rather more, or less than half a tile. (given a starting row positioned so that the edge tiles on opposing walls are of equal size) If that equal size is more than half a tile then the job will, as you stated generate considerable waste, unless……. the edge tiles, all being equal size, are less than half a tile?? Wouldn’t that take the same number of tiles and leave the same amount of waste as a floor laid parallel to the walls?  (allowing for breakage etc.)

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I have added a 12 x 20 room.  I plan on adding 12"ceramic tile on the floor. If I lay the tile on a 45 instead of square will it require me to use more tile?  Any pointers on how to do this will be appreciated. Thanks in advace, Phil

Rather than the standard 10%, order 15% more for a diagonal install.   To lay it out and end up with 1/2 diagonals requires a border.  The border may or may not be equal size pieces but will generally look better than small and different size diagonal cuts around the perimeter.  The full field tiles are set first, center out, with the border last. You should attempt to end up with a half tile or larger (but not more) for the border tiles. Check the pic.  It shows the full field with 1/2 diagonals and the accompanying border.   http://www.tiletrends.co.nz/images/halfborder.jpg Allthough this site deals with vinyl it gives pretty decent instructions for layout either straight or diagonal. http://tinyurl.com/orw  In addition to their instructions don’t forget to include your spacers in your dry layout.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr Fixit writes: The cut-offs from one side should fit into the other side, so that it takes the same number of tiles any way you lay them. Uh, you’ve done this before?  Properly? Generally one prefers to adjust the starting course location such that edge pieces are all bigger than a half a tile, as much as possible or practical. That means you have waste all along the edge.  You only need the "same number" if you’re willing to use a lot of tiny pieces instead of wasting them.  But that makes for a weaker, and most would say uglier, job. Maybe I should have started out by saying: I am not a ceramic tile installer, nor have I ever played one on TV.

Relax.  Don’t let this pompous ass Kink push your buttons.  He’s nothing but a blowhard.  As for being in the pool business I hardly think that because Kinch supervised his minor children who re-plastered his personal pool one time that makes him an expert on pools.  As for Kinch & tile issues anyone witha pc and a library card can study the trade just enough to make themselves dangerous.  My guess is he’s well read.  Another Dan Hicks. But practical, repetitive experience and training from an expert is the best teacher when it comes to the trades.

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Mr Fixit writes: On a square layout, I see what you’re saying although I thought that the *first* thing you would shoot for is symmetry, egual size edge tiles on opposing walls. So basically you’re saying that if that wouldn’t give you at least .5 tiles, then you toss out symmetry (that’s the thing my mind was trying to hang on to and still make sense of your statement about shifting the starter course) in favor of the more durable larger edge tiles on one wall with whole tiles on the opposing wall. Huh?  In my example, you span 3.2 units with 0.6 + 1 + 1 + 0.6.  That’s perfectly symmetric.  The naive 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.2 wouldn’t be symmetric.  I suppose 0.1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.1 would be symmetric, but awful.  They all leave you with about the same waste.

It’s sinking in. I finally see what you’re saying. Thanks.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr Fixit writes: The cut-offs from one side should fit into the other side, so that it takes the same number of tiles any way you lay them. Uh, you’ve done this before?  Properly? Generally one prefers to adjust the starting course location such that edge pieces are all bigger than a half a tile, as much as possible or practical. That means you have waste all along the edge.  You only need the "same number" if you’re willing to use a lot of tiny pieces instead of wasting them.  But that makes for a weaker, and most would say uglier, job. Maybe I should have started out by saying: I am not a ceramic tile installer, nor have I ever played one on TV. Relax.  Don’t let this pompous ass Kink push your buttons.  He’s nothing but a blowhard.  As for being in the pool business I hardly think that because Kinch supervised his minor children who re-plastered his personal pool one time that makes him an expert on pools.  As for Kinch & tile issues anyone witha pc and a library card can study the trade just enough to make themselves dangerous.  My guess is he’s well read.  Another Dan Hicks. But practical, repetitive experience and training from an expert is the best teacher when it comes to the trades.

These ol’ buttons are kinda rusty. Just thought I’d see how logical the next response was. BTW, you did clear up it up and calm my usually logical brain with a logical answer……. a border……. did I miss that in his reply? Now that you mentioned it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a diagonal floor without one. So, I can sleep well, being confident that up is still up and down is still down…… and moving something away from one wall does mean moving it closer to the other.  LOL!!

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Mr Fixit writes: could you please explain (in layman’s terms) how you would adjust the starter course such that you would wind up with more than half a tile on one wall without causing the tile on the opposite wall to be less than half a tile?

Easy. Consider an example where you want to lay a square pattern on a hallway that is say 3.2 tiles wide.  Now you can span that width with 3 whole tiles plus ugly 0.2 strips.  Or you can shift the centerline over and do it with 2 whole tiles and two 0.6 wide cut pieces on each side. A little mathematical reasoning shows that you can tile *any* given distance with more than half a tile on each end. Similar principle applies to diagonal layout.

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aj writes: Another Dan Hicks.

I’m flattered.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr Fixit writes: could you please explain (in layman’s terms) how you would adjust the starter course such that you would wind up with more than half a tile on one wall without causing the tile on the opposite wall to be less than half a tile? Easy. Consider an example where you want to lay a square pattern on a hallway that is say 3.2 tiles wide.  Now you can span that width with 3 whole tiles plus ugly 0.2 strips.  Or you can shift the centerline over and do it with 2 whole tiles and two 0.6 wide cut pieces on each side. A little mathematical reasoning shows that you can tile *any* given distance with more than half a tile on each end. Similar principle applies to diagonal layout.

You didn’t use the example I so carefully laid out, but that’s ok. The answer to that one, I now know is "with a border". On a square layout, I see what you’re saying although I thought that the *first* thing you would shoot for is symmetry, egual size edge tiles on opposing walls. So basically you’re saying that if that wouldn’t give you at least .5 tiles, then you toss out symmetry (that’s the thing my mind was trying to hang on to and still make sense of your statement about shifting the starter course) in favor of the more durable larger edge tiles on one wall with whole tiles on the opposing wall. Ok. Perfectly logical, thank you.

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Mr Fixit writes: On a square layout, I see what you’re saying although I thought that the *first* thing you would shoot for is symmetry, egual size edge tiles on opposing walls. So basically you’re saying that if that wouldn’t give you at least .5 tiles, then you toss out symmetry (that’s the thing my mind was trying to hang on to and still make sense of your statement about shifting the starter course) in favor of the more durable larger edge tiles on one wall with whole tiles on the opposing wall.

Huh?  In my example, you span 3.2 units with 0.6 + 1 + 1 + 0.6.  That’s perfectly symmetric.  The naive 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.2 wouldn’t be symmetric.  I suppose 0.1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.1 would be symmetric, but awful.  They all leave you with about the same waste.

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Mr Fixit writes: On a square layout, I see what you’re saying although I thought that the *first* thing you would shoot for is symmetry, egual size edge tiles on opposing walls. So basically you’re saying that if that wouldn’t give you at least .5 tiles, then you toss out symmetry (that’s the thing my mind was trying to hang on to and still make sense of your statement about shifting the starter course) in favor of the more durable larger edge tiles on one wall with whole tiles on the opposing wall. Huh?  In my example, you span 3.2 units with 0.6 + 1 + 1 + 0.6.  That’s perfectly symmetric.  The naive 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.2 wouldn’t be symmetric.  I suppose 0.1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.1 would be symmetric, but awful.  They all leave you with about the same waste.

It’s sinking in. I got it. Thanks.

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I have added a 12 x 20 room.  I plan on adding 12"ceramic tile on the floor. If I lay the tile on a 45 instead of square will it require me to use more tile?  Any pointers on how to do this will be appreciated. Thanks in advace, Phil

The cut-offs from one side should fit into the other side, so that it takes the same number of tiles any way you lay them. You will surely have breakage and I’d be surprised if the room is perfectly square so I’m sure you will need extra tiles to actually get the job done. Like, say……. one extra row. That should leave you with some leftovers for future repairs.

Response:

I have added a 12 x 20 room.  I plan on adding 12"ceramic tile on the floor. If I lay the tile on a 45 instead of square will it require me to use more tile?  Any pointers on how to do this will be appreciated. Thanks in advace, Phil

Response:

I have added a 12 x 20 room.  I plan on adding 12"ceramic tile on the floor. If I lay the tile on a 45 instead of square will it require me to use more tile?  Any pointers on how to do this will be appreciated. Thanks in advace, Phil

Because of the partial tiles reqired on the edges due to cuts you will likely need more tiles than if you tiled sqare.  Use some graph paper to layout the design and determine the number of tiles needed.  Don’t forget to account for the grout line spacing and add a small number of additional tiles to make up for any mistakes (mis-cut tiles, dropped/broken tiles etc…) Chris

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Question:

Agreed- user fees are a great idea – they’d separate the wheat from the chaff for sure! too many abusers make the msp rates go up along with the docs’ salaries and cost of medicine overall! I’d better stop before the soapbox gets stuck to my shoes! Shelagh  AT    valleylu…@telus.net Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight   AT http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus/index.html "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message

news:ucbujj4icta880@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A user fee would be a darn good idea especially with Medicaid patients. The > hospital emergency rooms are overflowing with them because they can "afford" > (using our tax dollars) to visit the emergency room over stubbed toes, hang > nails, and sniffles! And they get to ride in either an ambulance, or taxi > there free!! Yet when our neighbor who was battling cancer of the spine > found it too painful to ride in the car to the hospital for treatments – she > had to use a medical transport vehicle. Her insurance would not cover the > cost of the transport so she paid the very high cost of medical transport > out of pocket.  Our system is not fair! Yet most socialized medicine is > failing both the public and financially. > Over the years I have watched the cost of medication rise. Not because the > production costs have risen but because insurance companies became involved > in paying the cost of Rx’s. Twenty years ago that pink liquid bottle of > ampicillin used on just abut every child cost a little over a dollar. When > health insurance companies started to pay for it the cost rose dramatically. > When my granddaughter needed it the cost was almost $20. Shocking! That same > stuff (so I’ve heard) sells without a Rx in Europe for about $2. > Our system is far from perfect. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical > companies do pressure doctors and hospitals here virtually calling the shots > at times. Personally I’d like to see the insurance companies go away. Things > would probably be better. (Of course they won’t they own half the land in > the USA and just about every shopping mall.) Normal competition would keeps > prices in control. Everybody would make money and the rest of us could > afford it! Years ago a doctor knew who could not afford medical care and > those folks were charged a nominal fee or none. Now, it is big business! > The Medicaid abuses are terrible. Just look at that and you can see exactly > what would happen if we had socialized medicine! But once something becomes > established it is hard to undo. Look at our income tax. It has been proven > over and over that a sales tax would do more good. The coffers of the US > govt. would be overflowing in nothing flat. But the IRS is the largest > employer. Millions of accountants make their living off of income taxes, > etc. Big companies like H & R Block would have almost no business so they > would dissolve. To dissolve the IRS would throw this country into a economic > downward spin due to all the layoffs. So it won’t happen. > Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. Oops, sorry, I can’t; it’s glued to my feet! >  :-) > Bev > "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca> wrote in message > <SNIP>  I wish we had a user fee. It would cut down on the number of > > people that see a doctor for a simple cold or a hang-nail. Even a small > > amount might dissuade them. <SNIP>

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On Sun, 05 May 2002 20:09:25 GMT, "Nancy Farrell" <nfarrel…@worldnet.att.net>  wrote: >From the point of view of a Medicaid patient – I’m sure there are abusers, >as in anything to do with humans, but please don’t stereotype us too >quickly. <s>

<gentle snip> Hi Nancy! Gosh, I had no idea.  I really thought Medicaid and things like it were  less complex and more helpful. Almost makes you wonder if it’s worth it sometimes.  Sometimes…  $300 a month vs. the cost of the care otherwise is still probably better… but not good. Wish there was a better way. Sending you good thoughts. KCat

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Lee,     Yes, one does have to be damn near broke to be approved for MediCal. And THEN the fun begins — the co-pays, share-of-costs, which meds are on the list, which procedures will be approved, did the caseworker get my reports?, etc, etc.     I never pay for my med services upfront. I get all services at the County Medical Center or on a referral from them becaise I can get the care *before* either MediCal or I pay. I’ve even been told that if I pay for Rx’s the agency considers that I had the resources to do it, they don’t have to. That’s why it’s so tricky with a share-of-cost – if I need an Rx that I can’t pay for as part of my share-of-cost I have to wait until my payment or pay agreement with the Medical Center is recorded in the state computer. Blech!!!!!     I do agree with you about the absurdity of the rules & processes. Part of the prob with the drugs is that MediCal pressures the vendors to make contracts with very low prices. If a certain vendor won’t accept the offer MediCal puts those meds on a "no" list. A doctor can appeal by saying *why* a patient needs a particular med that is not allowed but it is a very iffy thing to get approval. — Nancy  F <nfarrel…@munge.att.net> "Lee Thompson-Herbert" <l…@gw.retro.com> wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> MediCAL only kicks in if you’re damn near broke.  And not all hospitals > will actually take MediCAL.  Plus, you’re expected to pay cash upfront > at most places and pray that MediCAL will reimburse you.  That combined > with the shrinking number of ERs and trauma units and the totally > ridiculous rules they use for disability, MediCAL and Medicaid, you run > a good chance of not getting anywhere close to adequate treatment.  There > are currently a couple really stupid rules about which antibiotics they’ll > cover, which has bitten a friend of mine on the ass a couple times now. > — > Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        l…@retro.com       KoX 1995, SP4 > Head Muso, White Rats Morris > Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. > "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"

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    Yes, the Medicaid program in California is called MediCal. I just used the more general name of Medicaid to be, hopefully, more clear. Nancy  F <nfarrel…@munge.att.net> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"J Rogow" <JRo…@Newsguy.com> wrote: > Doesn’t California have a program called "MediCAL" that will > pay most of your bills that Medicare doesn’t cover?

Response:

Good heavens – the things you learn on ASL! "Lee Thompson-Herbert" <l…@gw.retro.com> wrote in message

news:ab4ml7$gh2$1@gw.retro.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <ab4eiq02…@enews2.newsguy.com>, > J Rogow <JRo…@Newsguy.com> wrote: > >Doesn’t California have a program called "MediCAL" that will > [Hey folks, learn to trim.  I just chopped out 80 lines worth of old > posts!] > MediCAL only kicks in if you’re damn near broke.  And not all hospitals > will actually take MediCAL.  Plus, you’re expected to pay cash upfront > at most places and pray that MediCAL will reimburse you.  That combined > with the shrinking number of ERs and trauma units and the totally > ridiculous rules they use for disability, MediCAL and Medicaid, you run > a good chance of not getting anywhere close to adequate treatment.  There > are currently a couple really stupid rules about which antibiotics they’ll > cover, which has bitten a friend of mine on the ass a couple times now. > — > Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        l…@retro.com       KoX 1995, SP4 > Head Muso, White Rats Morris > Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. > "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"

Response:

In article <ab4eiq02…@enews2.newsguy.com>, J Rogow <JRo…@Newsguy.com> wrote: >Doesn’t California have a program called "MediCAL" that will

[Hey folks, learn to trim.  I just chopped out 80 lines worth of old posts!] MediCAL only kicks in if you’re damn near broke.  And not all hospitals will actually take MediCAL.  Plus, you’re expected to pay cash upfront at most places and pray that MediCAL will reimburse you.  That combined with the shrinking number of ERs and trauma units and the totally ridiculous rules they use for disability, MediCAL and Medicaid, you run a good chance of not getting anywhere close to adequate treatment.  There are currently a couple really stupid rules about which antibiotics they’ll cover, which has bitten a friend of mine on the ass a couple times now. — Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        l…@retro.com            KoX 1995, SP4 Head Muso, White Rats Morris Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"

Response:

Doesn’t California have a program called "MediCAL" that will pay most of your bills that Medicare doesn’t cover? "Nancy Farrell" <nfarrel…@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:VjgB8.7625$6T5.693591@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> From the point of view of a Medicaid patient – I’m sure there are abusers, > as in anything to do with humans, but please don’t stereotype us too > quickly. <s> >     Here in California we are supposed to pay $1.00 co-pay for every office > visit, Rx, ER is $5.00, no fee for labs, X-rays, etc. Some offices see this > as a hassle and don’t bother to collect. With the budgetary constraints > those $1.00’s become precious. >     Also, if the *household’s* total income is more than a ridiculously low > amount for California (currently about $1,000 a month for 2 people) we have > to pay (or make an arrangement to pay) a monthly "share of cost" before > Medicaid pays *anything*. This means that if my Share of Cost is $300 per > month I must either pay cash price upfront for my meds & services up to $300 > or sign a pay agreement at the medical center for $300 for that month (And > then get the most services I can on meds, labs, tests, specialty visits > while in that month.). With my HUD assisted housing costs of $500 a month, > utils, car payment & ins (Yes, we can’t get anywhere without our own car > that can hold my mobility cart), there isn’t much left! >     Please understand that we don’t go zooming off to the ER in an ambulance > any time we have a trivial complaint. It is an agonizing process to decide > if a current "emergency’ is emergent enough for Medicaid to pay when I am > losing consciousness. If I guess wrong I’ll have to somehow pay the > ambulance service, the ER, the ER doc, the lab, whatever else they throw in. > This is especially hard on parents of sick children, ie asthmatics, > diabetics, etc. >     Thank you for my turn "on the soapbox".– > Nancy  F <nfarrel…@munge.att.net> > "Shelagh" <valleylu…@telus.net> wrote in message > news:aznx8.8675$dd7.615314@news0.telusplanet.net… > > Agreed- user fees are a great idea – they’d separate the wheat from the > > chaff for sure! too many abusers make the msp rates go up along with the > > docs’ salaries and cost of medicine overall! > > I’d better stop before the soapbox gets stuck to my shoes! > > Shelagh  AT    valleylu…@telus.net > > Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight   AT > > http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus/index.html > > "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message > > news:ucbujj4icta880@corp.supernews.com… > > > A user fee would be a darn good idea especially with Medicaid > > patients. The > > > hospital emergency rooms are overflowing with them because they can > > "afford" > > > (using our tax dollars) to visit the emergency room over stubbed toes, > > hang > > > nails, and sniffles! And they get to ride in either an ambulance, or > > taxi > > > there free!! Yet when our neighbor who was battling cancer of the > > spine > > > found it too painful to ride in the car to the hospital for > > treatments – she > > > had to use a medical transport vehicle. Her insurance would not cover > > the > > > cost of the transport so she paid the very high cost of medical > > transport > > > out of pocket.  Our system is not fair! Yet most socialized medicine > > is > > > failing both the public and financially. > > > Over the years I have watched the cost of medication rise. Not because > > the > > > production costs have risen but because insurance companies became > > involved > > > in paying the cost of Rx’s. Twenty years ago that pink liquid bottle > > of > > > ampicillin used on just abut every child cost a little over a dollar. > > When > > > health insurance companies started to pay for it the cost rose > > dramatically. > > > When my granddaughter needed it the cost was almost $20. Shocking! > > That same > > > stuff (so I’ve heard) sells without a Rx in Europe for about $2. > > > Our system is far from perfect. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical > > > companies do pressure doctors and hospitals here virtually calling the > > shots > > > at times. Personally I’d like to see the insurance companies go away. > > Things > > > would probably be better. (Of course they won’t they own half the land > > in > > > the USA and just about every shopping mall.) Normal competition would > > keeps > > > prices in control. Everybody would make money and the rest of us could > > > afford it! Years ago a doctor knew who could not afford medical care > > and > > > those folks were charged a nominal fee or none. Now, it is big > > business! > > > The Medicaid abuses are terrible. Just look at that and you can see > > exactly > > > what would happen if we had socialized medicine! But once something > > becomes > > > established it is hard to undo. Look at our income tax. It has been > > proven > > > over and over that a sales tax would do more good. The coffers of the > > US > > > govt. would be overflowing in nothing flat. But the IRS is the largest > > > employer. Millions of accountants make their living off of income > > taxes, > > > etc. Big companies like H & R Block would have almost no business so > > they > > > would dissolve. To dissolve the IRS would throw this country into a > > economic > > > downward spin due to all the layoffs. So it won’t happen. > > > Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. Oops, sorry, I can’t; it’s glued to my > > feet! > > >  :-) > > > Bev > > > "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca> wrote in message > > > <SNIP>  I wish we had a user fee. It would cut down on the number of > > > > people that see a doctor for a simple cold or a hang-nail. Even a > > small > > > > amount might dissuade them. <SNIP>

Response:

Soap box or no box, who cares? We all need to vent. I received a notice from our private insurer, informing us they are receiving "rebates" from the Pharmaceutical companies. And those dollars are not reimbursable to us the insured? We pay a tremendous amount of money for insurance. I think everyone will agree, a dollar is a dollar. We all need them. I have physicians, that will not file our major med. let alone Medicare. They are good doctors, so do we find another, or bite the bullet and pay the doctor and take our chances that the insurance co. will receive our claim in the mail, let alone consider it for benefits. Then there is the whole matter of Medicare and what they allow, approve, and are willing to pay. Nothing if they can help it. I’m finished, I think. Wende "Nancy Farrell" <nfarrel…@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:VjgB8.7625$6T5.693591@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> From the point of view of a Medicaid patient – I’m sure there are abusers, > as in anything to do with humans, but please don’t stereotype us too > quickly. <s> >     Here in California we are supposed to pay $1.00 co-pay for every office > visit, Rx, ER is $5.00, no fee for labs, X-rays, etc. Some offices see this > as a hassle and don’t bother to collect. With the budgetary constraints > those $1.00’s become precious. >     Also, if the *household’s* total income is more than a ridiculously low > amount for California (currently about $1,000 a month for 2 people) we have > to pay (or make an arrangement to pay) a monthly "share of cost" before > Medicaid pays *anything*. This means that if my Share of Cost is $300 per > month I must either pay cash price upfront for my meds & services up to $300 > or sign a pay agreement at the medical center for $300 for that month (And > then get the most services I can on meds, labs, tests, specialty visits > while in that month.). With my HUD assisted housing costs of $500 a month, > utils, car payment & ins (Yes, we can’t get anywhere without our own car > that can hold my mobility cart), there isn’t much left! >     Please understand that we don’t go zooming off to the ER in an ambulance > any time we have a trivial complaint. It is an agonizing process to decide > if a current "emergency’ is emergent enough for Medicaid to pay when I am > losing consciousness. If I guess wrong I’ll have to somehow pay the > ambulance service, the ER, the ER doc, the lab, whatever else they throw in. > This is especially hard on parents of sick children, ie asthmatics, > diabetics, etc. >     Thank you for my turn "on the soapbox".– > Nancy  F <nfarrel…@munge.att.net> > "Shelagh" <valleylu…@telus.net> wrote in message > news:aznx8.8675$dd7.615314@news0.telusplanet.net… > > Agreed- user fees are a great idea – they’d separate the wheat from the > > chaff for sure! too many abusers make the msp rates go up along with the > > docs’ salaries and cost of medicine overall! > > I’d better stop before the soapbox gets stuck to my shoes! > > Shelagh  AT    valleylu…@telus.net > > Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight   AT > > http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus/index.html > > "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message > > news:ucbujj4icta880@corp.supernews.com… > > > A user fee would be a darn good idea especially with Medicaid > > patients. The > > > hospital emergency rooms are overflowing with them because they can > > "afford" > > > (using our tax dollars) to visit the emergency room over stubbed toes, > > hang > > > nails, and sniffles! And they get to ride in either an ambulance, or > > taxi > > > there free!! Yet when our neighbor who was battling cancer of the > > spine > > > found it too painful to ride in the car to the hospital for > > treatments – she > > > had to use a medical transport vehicle. Her insurance would not cover > > the > > > cost of the transport so she paid the very high cost of medical > > transport > > > out of pocket.  Our system is not fair! Yet most socialized medicine > > is > > > failing both the public and financially. > > > Over the years I have watched the cost of medication rise. Not because > > the > > > production costs have risen but because insurance companies became > > involved > > > in paying the cost of Rx’s. Twenty years ago that pink liquid bottle > > of > > > ampicillin used on just abut every child cost a little over a dollar. > > When > > > health insurance companies started to pay for it the cost rose > > dramatically. > > > When my granddaughter needed it the cost was almost $20. Shocking! > > That same > > > stuff (so I’ve heard) sells without a Rx in Europe for about $2. > > > Our system is far from perfect. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical > > > companies do pressure doctors and hospitals here virtually calling the > > shots > > > at times. Personally I’d like to see the insurance companies go away. > > Things > > > would probably be better. (Of course they won’t they own half the land > > in > > > the USA and just about every shopping mall.) Normal competition would > > keeps > > > prices in control. Everybody would make money and the rest of us could > > > afford it! Years ago a doctor knew who could not afford medical care > > and > > > those folks were charged a nominal fee or none. Now, it is big > > business! > > > The Medicaid abuses are terrible. Just look at that and you can see > > exactly > > > what would happen if we had socialized medicine! But once something > > becomes > > > established it is hard to undo. Look at our income tax. It has been > > proven > > > over and over that a sales tax would do more good. The coffers of the > > US > > > govt. would be overflowing in nothing flat. But the IRS is the largest > > > employer. Millions of accountants make their living off of income > > taxes, > > > etc. Big companies like H & R Block would have almost no business so > > they > > > would dissolve. To dissolve the IRS would throw this country into a > > economic > > > downward spin due to all the layoffs. So it won’t happen. > > > Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. Oops, sorry, I can’t; it’s glued to my > > feet! > > >  :-) > > > Bev > > > "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca> wrote in message > > > <SNIP>  I wish we had a user fee. It would cut down on the number of > > > > people that see a doctor for a simple cold or a hang-nail. Even a > > small > > > > amount might dissuade them. <SNIP>

Response:

From the point of view of a Medicaid patient – I’m sure there are abusers, as in anything to do with humans, but please don’t stereotype us too quickly. <s>     Here in California we are supposed to pay $1.00 co-pay for every office visit, Rx, ER is $5.00, no fee for labs, X-rays, etc. Some offices see this as a hassle and don’t bother to collect. With the budgetary constraints those $1.00’s become precious.     Also, if the *household’s* total income is more than a ridiculously low amount for California (currently about $1,000 a month for 2 people) we have to pay (or make an arrangement to pay) a monthly "share of cost" before Medicaid pays *anything*. This means that if my Share of Cost is $300 per month I must either pay cash price upfront for my meds & services up to $300 or sign a pay agreement at the medical center for $300 for that month (And then get the most services I can on meds, labs, tests, specialty visits while in that month.). With my HUD assisted housing costs of $500 a month, utils, car payment & ins (Yes, we can’t get anywhere without our own car that can hold my mobility cart), there isn’t much left!     Please understand that we don’t go zooming off to the ER in an ambulance any time we have a trivial complaint. It is an agonizing process to decide if a current "emergency’ is emergent enough for Medicaid to pay when I am losing consciousness. If I guess wrong I’ll have to somehow pay the ambulance service, the ER, the ER doc, the lab, whatever else they throw in. This is especially hard on parents of sick children, ie asthmatics, diabetics, etc.     Thank you for my turn "on the soapbox".– Nancy  F <nfarrel…@munge.att.net> "Shelagh" <valleylu…@telus.net> wrote in message

news:aznx8.8675$dd7.615314@news0.telusplanet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Agreed- user fees are a great idea – they’d separate the wheat from the > chaff for sure! too many abusers make the msp rates go up along with the > docs’ salaries and cost of medicine overall! > I’d better stop before the soapbox gets stuck to my shoes! > Shelagh  AT    valleylu…@telus.net > Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight   AT > http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus/index.html > "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message > news:ucbujj4icta880@corp.supernews.com… > > A user fee would be a darn good idea especially with Medicaid > patients. The > > hospital emergency rooms are overflowing with them because they can > "afford" > > (using our tax dollars) to visit the emergency room over stubbed toes, > hang > > nails, and sniffles! And they get to ride in either an ambulance, or > taxi > > there free!! Yet when our neighbor who was battling cancer of the > spine > > found it too painful to ride in the car to the hospital for > treatments – she > > had to use a medical transport vehicle. Her insurance would not cover > the > > cost of the transport so she paid the very high cost of medical > transport > > out of pocket.  Our system is not fair! Yet most socialized medicine > is > > failing both the public and financially. > > Over the years I have watched the cost of medication rise. Not because > the > > production costs have risen but because insurance companies became > involved > > in paying the cost of Rx’s. Twenty years ago that pink liquid bottle > of > > ampicillin used on just abut every child cost a little over a dollar. > When > > health insurance companies started to pay for it the cost rose > dramatically. > > When my granddaughter needed it the cost was almost $20. Shocking! > That same > > stuff (so I’ve heard) sells without a Rx in Europe for about $2. > > Our system is far from perfect. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical > > companies do pressure doctors and hospitals here virtually calling the > shots > > at times. Personally I’d like to see the insurance companies go away. > Things > > would probably be better. (Of course they won’t they own half the land > in > > the USA and just about every shopping mall.) Normal competition would > keeps > > prices in control. Everybody would make money and the rest of us could > > afford it! Years ago a doctor knew who could not afford medical care > and > > those folks were charged a nominal fee or none. Now, it is big > business! > > The Medicaid abuses are terrible. Just look at that and you can see > exactly > > what would happen if we had socialized medicine! But once something > becomes > > established it is hard to undo. Look at our income tax. It has been > proven > > over and over that a sales tax would do more good. The coffers of the > US > > govt. would be overflowing in nothing flat. But the IRS is the largest > > employer. Millions of accountants make their living off of income > taxes, > > etc. Big companies like H & R Block would have almost no business so > they > > would dissolve. To dissolve the IRS would throw this country into a > economic > > downward spin due to all the layoffs. So it won’t happen. > > Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. Oops, sorry, I can’t; it’s glued to my > feet! > >  :-) > > Bev > > "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca> wrote in message > > <SNIP>  I wish we had a user fee. It would cut down on the number of > > > people that see a doctor for a simple cold or a hang-nail. Even a > small > > > amount might dissuade them. <SNIP>

Response:

A user fee would be a darn good idea especially with Medicaid patients. The hospital emergency rooms are overflowing with them because they can "afford" (using our tax dollars) to visit the emergency room over stubbed toes, hang nails, and sniffles! And they get to ride in either an ambulance, or taxi there free!! Yet when our neighbor who was battling cancer of the spine found it too painful to ride in the car to the hospital for treatments – she had to use a medical transport vehicle. Her insurance would not cover the cost of the transport so she paid the very high cost of medical transport out of pocket.  Our system is not fair! Yet most socialized medicine is failing both the public and financially. Over the years I have watched the cost of medication rise. Not because the production costs have risen but because insurance companies became involved in paying the cost of Rx’s. Twenty years ago that pink liquid bottle of ampicillin used on just abut every child cost a little over a dollar. When health insurance companies started to pay for it the cost rose dramatically. When my granddaughter needed it the cost was almost $20. Shocking! That same stuff (so I’ve heard) sells without a Rx in Europe for about $2. Our system is far from perfect. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies do pressure doctors and hospitals here virtually calling the shots at times. Personally I’d like to see the insurance companies go away. Things would probably be better. (Of course they won’t they own half the land in the USA and just about every shopping mall.) Normal competition would keeps prices in control. Everybody would make money and the rest of us could afford it! Years ago a doctor knew who could not afford medical care and those folks were charged a nominal fee or none. Now, it is big business! The Medicaid abuses are terrible. Just look at that and you can see exactly what would happen if we had socialized medicine! But once something becomes established it is hard to undo. Look at our income tax. It has been proven over and over that a sales tax would do more good. The coffers of the US govt. would be overflowing in nothing flat. But the IRS is the largest employer. Millions of accountants make their living off of income taxes, etc. Big companies like H & R Block would have almost no business so they would dissolve. To dissolve the IRS would throw this country into a economic downward spin due to all the layoffs. So it won’t happen. Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. Oops, sorry, I can’t; it’s glued to my feet!  :-) Bev "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca> wrote in message

<SNIP>  I wish we had a user fee. It would cut down on the number of – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> people that see a doctor for a simple cold or a hang-nail. Even a small > amount might dissuade them. <SNIP>

Response:

WOW!! An absolutely overwhelming situation and you have my full admiration for your ability to accept and work with ‘what has to be’. I for one, appreciate the explanation of the system as I really had no knowledge at all of billing procedures and all….what I did know would fit into a thimble…eg: Canadians are very fearful of getting sick (or even seeing a clinic for emerg.)  in the States due to the ‘unknown’ and ’scary’ hospital costs….so most always invest in travellers insurance. Thanks for sharing and good luck to you and your family with regards to your health and maintaining payments. Shelagh  AT    valleylu…@telus.net Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight   AT http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus/index.html "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message

news:ucarjl26uflm8f@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Since this seems to keep cropping up I decided I’d start a new thread and > see what happens. Having no insurance is not easy. Plans vary in the USA > often depending on what an employer has available. > If you really are poor you do get help, Medicaid. And with Medicaid often > comes some other help in the form of housing assistance and food stamps. The > amount varies depending upon which State within the USA you live. > Most folks do have insurance. I don’t know the numbers but I do know there > is a very high percentage of folks that do not have any insurance.  Of > course the nice thing would be to have enough money to be considered self > insured! But many folks are sitting in a position much like ourselves, > employers offer insurance but we cannot afford the premiums (monthly > payments). Insurance where my husband works would be over $400/month. That > is a big chunk of money for us so we declined insurance. > Then George got sick seriously sick, not once but twice. First was not quite > 2 years ago. He had a lung infection. The medical bills for that staggered > to almost $8,000. During that bout of sickness upon routine examination and > blood work it was discovered he had another problem. They said it needed to > be investigated further when we had the chance. So about a year later we > returned for an additional exam and biopsy. Cancer! > This time the bills are mounting to what we expect will be about $35,000 for > cancer treatment, alone. How, do we pay it? Slowly. Every month we pay small > amounts to each medical bill. Our biggest bill right now is to the local > hospital. They do something called stacking the bills where others are > combining them into one account. So for instance, we pay $50/month to the > one hospital. They credit one of the bills until that one disappears and > then start with the next bill.  Quite honestly at that rate it will take us > 18 years to pay off the bill. > The big hospital where my husband is going for his cancer has a different > set-up but it is probably better for us. They combine all the actual > hospital bills into one account and all the doctors associated with the > hospital into another account.  So that is another $100/month, $50 to each > account. > But you have to get on the phone to the billing offices and beg for payments > that fit the budget. They will work with you!! But then you have to stick > with what you promise. I have promised $25 to several bills but pay $50, > knowing if I do have a problem one month I can drop it down to the $25. > I’m still paying the pulmonologist from 2 years ago and every once in a > while another odd bill floats in because some radiologist read a chest X-ray > or cat-scan. Or some lab/pathologist charges us for some sort of blood work. > Often these little bills can just totally foul up our payment system mostly > because they are unexpected and usually several hundred dollars. > My often foggy little brain has to really try hard to keep up with > everything. We got one bill in for almost $3,000 for a pathology report. > REPORT!!!! The pathology lab was less than $300. Naturally, I got on the > phone about that one and it seemed to vanish. I think someone made a mistake > and hit too many zeros while typing in the bill. It’s a wee bit harder > because I am the only one looking at  what we are being charged for and I > have to understand the charges or I pick up the phone and don’t let up until > I understand the charges. > The good thing is not one of these bills have interest charged on them. So > each payment does reduce the balance. If I quit paying somebody I’d get into > big trouble fast. If something comes up I could probably skip a month if I > asked first. Communication is very important with billing offices. > The strange thing is – if my husband were to lose his job today most of > these bills would vanish as we would fall under Medicaid and they will back > pay up to 3 months of medical bills incurred. Of course if he were to be > laid off we’d also probably lose everything including our house! So, no, > having him laid off to prevent us from having to pay medical bills doesn’t > work very well! (LOL) > So right now we are paying out about $300 a month in medical bills. Most > everybody is getting 50 and some getting 25 per month. It’s a lot of money > for us. That is also why I don’t want to incur any more bills. For instance > if I go to a Rheumy it will probably be $180 up front and then blood work > $300? and who knows what else. See the problem? > On the other hand having no insurance gave us the freedom to choose who we > wanted and to make sure my husband is getting the very best care. Most > insurance plans limit you to only certain types of medical treatments and to > only certain facilities and doctors. We got to use one of the best > pulmonologists in the area when he needed a pulmonologist. Now that my > husband is battling cancer we were able to choose one of the best radiation > oncologists on the east coast and still use the local radiation oncology > department for a portion of his treatment so that he did not have to travel > 4 hours a day for treatment. He was able to continue working and really was > only a few minutes late for work daily for 5 weeks. Time he could make up at > lunch without losing his 40 hours. This was a better alternative to us than > using the more standard treatment for this type of cancer; surgery and six > weeks of lost wages while home recuperating. > So really it is a trade off. We have the bills but we also got exactly the > type of treatment we wanted from the people and facilities we chose. His > work is not interrupted. So he will continue to be the main income provider. > And with this superior treatment I should have him around for another 30 > years or more! > Of course there is one other thing we could do. Bankrupt. Not something I > would even want to consider but it is a last resort. People do it. > As long as we have income I will continue to pay the bills. It has taken > almost 2 years but I just about have the pulmonologist paid off. When the > bill hits zero it will free up another $50/month I can put towards another > bill. > So what if one of us gets sick again? The bills get stacked/combined etc. > Our local hospital cannot deny treatment as long as we are faithfully paying > on our bills. It has something to do with ethics. > We do ask the doctors to prescribe generic or cheaper brands if possible. > And fortunately neither one of us is on any daily meds, not including my > naprosyn. So the Rx problem is usually a limited one time item. > How do we do it? We don’t make a whole lot of money. I think we would easily > be considered the working poor these days. We own our house (well, the bank > does-LOL) in a beautiful Historic neighborhood. We drive reasonably decent > cars. And we live pretty ordinary lives. That means we don’t go away on > fancy vacations, I don’t go shopping as a hobby, we don’t have cable TV,etc. > What is often considered normal in some households would be pure luxury > here. Our big panic right now is wondering if the 28 year old AC unit will > work this summer as we cannot afford $6,000 to replace it. It is not > considered fixable because it is too old. (Window units? Not supposed to > have them in a Historic District)  It wasn’t supposed to work last year but > it did. So who knows. > I still think we are better off without insurance. At least we can chose our > doctors and treatments. Now, you also know why I work. > Sorry this is so long. > Bev

Response:

Thanks Bev, It is so confusing for Canadians. I have often asked how the U.S. system works, and did not have a clear picture until you explained your situation. I just got back from having my regular blood work, and a special one ordered by the endocrinologist. It cost me nothing. I would guess that we would be in about the same financial position as you. I had to pick up a presc. which normally costs me $82, but we had reached our deductible with the govt so it only cost $29 today. We start back at $0 every six months. I will look at all of my scripts today and fill anything that is getting low while we are in that position. I take about a dozen meds a day, so that will save us a lot. We would have to have private insurance to pay all, or part of the cost of meds. You see, we have universal medicare here. It is great because the cost of all dr visits and tests are covered. The problem is that both patients and doctors abuse the system. The waiting time for tests and to see specialists is extremely long. A Canadian might have to wait up to two years for hip replacement or knee surgery. A lot of the wait time can depend on the doctor too. I have one doc who really goes to bat for his patients. He actually fudged a requisition for a test for me. He said it was urgent, but it he filled it in properly I might have to wait far too long. He wrote in what would be considered by the govt to be more of a priority, just to speed things up. I was a good thing too, because the test came back positive. I was suffering terribly and got treatment far sooner than I would have otherwise. He could be in trouble if he were caught, but was willing to do it to help me. I wish we had a user fee. It would cut down on the number of people that see a doctor for a simple cold or a hang-nail. Even a small amount might dissuade them. I know that I delay seeing a doctor even though I am seriously ill. I don’t like to strain the system. I wish others felt the same. Again, thank you for your explaination. BJ-who blinked and missed spring "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message

news:ucarjl26uflm8f@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Since this seems to keep cropping up I decided I’d start a new thread and > see what happens. Having no insurance is not easy. Plans vary in the USA > often depending on what an employer has available. > If you really are poor you do get help, Medicaid. And with Medicaid often > comes some other help in the form of housing assistance and food stamps. The > amount varies depending upon which State within the USA you live. > Most folks do have insurance. I don’t know the numbers but I do know there > is a very high percentage of folks that do not have any insurance.  Of > course the nice thing would be to have enough money to be considered self > insured! But many folks are sitting in a position much like ourselves, > employers offer insurance but we cannot afford the premiums (monthly > payments). Insurance where my husband works would be over $400/month. That > is a big chunk of money for us so we declined insurance. > Then George got sick seriously sick, not once but twice. First was not quite > 2 years ago. He had a lung infection. The medical bills for that staggered > to almost $8,000. During that bout of sickness upon routine examination and > blood work it was discovered he had another problem. They said it needed to > be investigated further when we had the chance. So about a year later we > returned for an additional exam and biopsy. Cancer! > This time the bills are mounting to what we expect will be about $35,000 for > cancer treatment, alone. How, do we pay it? Slowly. Every month we pay small > amounts to each medical bill. Our biggest bill right now is to the local > hospital. They do something called stacking the bills where others are > combining them into one account. So for instance, we pay $50/month to the > one hospital. They credit one of the bills until that one disappears and > then start with the next bill.  Quite honestly at that rate it will take us > 18 years to pay off the bill. > The big hospital where my husband is going for his cancer has a different > set-up but it is probably better for us. They combine all the actual > hospital bills into one account and all the doctors associated with the > hospital into another account.  So that is another $100/month, $50 to each > account. > But you have to get on the phone to the billing offices and beg for payments > that fit the budget. They will work with you!! But then you have to stick > with what you promise. I have promised $25 to several bills but pay $50, > knowing if I do have a problem one month I can drop it down to the $25. > I’m still paying the pulmonologist from 2 years ago and every once in a > while another odd bill floats in because some radiologist read a chest X-ray > or cat-scan. Or some lab/pathologist charges us for some sort of blood work. > Often these little bills can just totally foul up our payment system mostly > because they are unexpected and usually several hundred dollars. > My often foggy little brain has to really try hard to keep up with > everything. We got one bill in for almost $3,000 for a pathology report. > REPORT!!!! The pathology lab was less than $300. Naturally, I got on the > phone about that one and it seemed to vanish. I think someone made a mistake > and hit too many zeros while typing in the bill. It’s a wee bit harder > because I am the only one looking at  what we are being charged for and I > have to understand the charges or I pick up the phone and don’t let up until > I understand the charges. > The good thing is not one of these bills have interest charged on them. So > each payment does reduce the balance. If I quit paying somebody I’d get into > big trouble fast. If something comes up I could probably skip a month if I > asked first. Communication is very important with billing offices. > The strange thing is – if my husband were to lose his job today most of > these bills would vanish as we would fall under Medicaid and they will back > pay up to 3 months of medical bills incurred. Of course if he were to be > laid off we’d also probably lose everything including our house! So, no, > having him laid off to prevent us from having to pay medical bills doesn’t > work very well! (LOL) > So right now we are paying out about $300 a month in medical bills. Most > everybody is getting 50 and some getting 25 per month. It’s a lot of money > for us. That is also why I don’t want to incur any more bills. For instance > if I go to a Rheumy it will probably be $180 up front and then blood work > $300? and who knows what else. See the problem? > On the other hand having no insurance gave us the freedom to choose who we > wanted and to make sure my husband is getting the very best care. Most > insurance plans limit you to only certain types of medical treatments and to > only certain facilities and doctors. We got to use one of the best > pulmonologists in the area when he needed a pulmonologist. Now that my > husband is battling cancer we were able to choose one of the best radiation > oncologists on the east coast and still use the local radiation oncology > department for a portion of his treatment so that he did not have to travel > 4 hours a day for treatment. He was able to continue working and really was > only a few minutes late for work daily for 5 weeks. Time he could make up at > lunch without losing his 40 hours. This was a better alternative to us than > using the more standard treatment for this type of cancer; surgery and six > weeks of lost wages while home recuperating. > So really it is a trade off. We have the bills but we also got exactly the > type of treatment we wanted from the people and facilities we chose. His > work is not interrupted. So he will continue to be the main income provider. > And with this superior treatment I should have him around for another 30 > years or more! > Of course there is one other thing we could do. Bankrupt. Not something I > would even want to consider but it is a last resort. People do it. > As long as we have income I will continue to pay the bills. It has taken > almost 2 years but I just about have the pulmonologist paid off. When the > bill hits zero it will free up another $50/month I can put towards another > bill. > So what if one of us gets sick again? The bills get stacked/combined etc. > Our local hospital cannot deny treatment as long as we are faithfully paying > on our bills. It has something to do with ethics. > We do ask the doctors to prescribe generic or cheaper brands if possible. > And fortunately neither one of us is on any daily meds, not including my > naprosyn. So the Rx problem is usually a limited one time item. > How do we do it? We don’t make a whole lot of money. I think we would easily > be considered the working poor these days. We own our house (well, the bank > does-LOL) in a beautiful Historic neighborhood. We drive reasonably decent > cars. And we live pretty ordinary lives. That means we don’t go away on > fancy vacations, I don’t go shopping as a hobby, we don’t have cable TV,etc. > What is often considered normal in some households would be pure luxury > here. Our big panic right now is wondering if the 28 year old AC unit will > work this summer as we cannot afford $6,000 to replace it. It is not > considered fixable because it is too old. (Window units? Not supposed to > have them in a Historic District)  It wasn’t supposed to work last year but > it did. So who knows. > I still think we are better off without insurance. At least we can chose our > doctors and treatments. Now, you also know why I work. > Sorry this is so long. > Bev

Response:

Hi Bev:)))) Bruce On.  Thank you for being so open . It just blows me away that you try to be a good citizen and just for profit on the sick hosp. corp. can repo everything you have. Then have the gall to medicade you to the poor house. But on the other hand where can I buy hosp. stock ? Sounds like they have Enron accountancies with their stacking pyramid scheme. In Canuck land we are also moving that way , Health care is 80% back to 1960 with downsizing privatizing . Here it is drug companies and insurance that control dr. and hosp. My idea was for all casinos be owned by state/prov. and all profits go to health and education as we all use this and we are the losers that gamble. Do hope others fear not to tell their stories?? hugs Bruce "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message

news:ucarjl26uflm8f@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Since this seems to keep cropping up I decided I’d start a new thread and > see what happens. Having no insurance is not easy. Plans vary in the USA > often depending on what an employer has available. > If you really are poor you do get help, Medicaid. And with Medicaid often > comes some other help in the form of housing assistance and food stamps. The > amount varies depending upon which State within the USA you live. > Most folks do have insurance. I don’t know the numbers but I do know there > is a very high percentage of folks that do not have any insurance.  Of > course the nice thing would be to have enough money to be considered self > insured! But many folks are sitting in a position much like ourselves, > employers offer insurance but we cannot afford the premiums (monthly > payments). Insurance where my husband works would be over $400/month. That > is a big chunk of money for us so we declined insurance. > Then George got sick seriously sick, not once but twice. First was not quite > 2 years ago. He had a lung infection. The medical bills for that staggered > to almost $8,000. During that bout of sickness upon routine examination and > blood work it was discovered he had another problem. They said it needed to > be investigated further when we had the chance. So about a year later we > returned for an additional exam and biopsy. Cancer! > This time the bills are mounting to what we expect will be about $35,000 for > cancer treatment, alone. How, do we pay it? Slowly. Every month we pay small > amounts to each medical bill. Our biggest bill right now is to the local > hospital. They do something called stacking the bills where others are > combining them into one account. So for instance, we pay $50/month to the > one hospital. They credit one of the bills until that one disappears and > then start with the next bill.  Quite honestly at that rate it will take us > 18 years to pay off the bill. > The big hospital where my husband is going for his cancer has a different > set-up but it is probably better for us. They combine all the actual > hospital bills into one account and all the doctors associated with the > hospital into another account.  So that is another $100/month, $50 to each > account. > But you have to get on the phone to the billing offices and beg for payments > that fit the budget. They will work with you!! But then you have to stick > with what you promise. I have promised $25 to several bills but pay $50, > knowing if I do have a problem one month I can drop it down to the $25. > I’m still paying the pulmonologist from 2 years ago and every once in a > while another odd bill floats in because some radiologist read a chest X-ray > or cat-scan. Or some lab/pathologist charges us for some sort of blood work. > Often these little bills can just totally foul up our payment system mostly > because they are unexpected and usually several hundred dollars. > My often foggy little brain has to really try hard to keep up with > everything. We got one bill in for almost $3,000 for a pathology report. > REPORT!!!! The pathology lab was less than $300. Naturally, I got on the > phone about that one and it seemed to vanish. I think someone made a mistake > and hit too many zeros while typing in the bill. It’s a wee bit harder > because I am the only one looking at  what we are being charged for and I > have to understand the charges or I pick up the phone and don’t let up until > I understand the charges. > The good thing is not one of these bills have interest charged on them. So > each payment does reduce the balance. If I quit paying somebody I’d get into > big trouble fast. If something comes up I could probably skip a month if I > asked first. Communication is very important with billing offices. > The strange thing is – if my husband were to lose his job today most of > these bills would vanish as we would fall under Medicaid and they will back > pay up to 3 months of medical bills incurred. Of course if he were to be > laid off we’d also probably lose everything including our house! So, no, > having him laid off to prevent us from having to pay medical bills doesn’t > work very well! (LOL) > So right now we are paying out about $300 a month in medical bills. Most > everybody is getting 50 and some getting 25 per month. It’s a lot of money > for us. That is also why I don’t want to incur any more bills. For instance > if I go to a Rheumy it will probably be $180 up front and then blood work > $300? and who knows what else. See the problem? > On the other hand having no insurance gave us the freedom to choose who we > wanted and to make sure my husband is getting the very best care. Most > insurance plans limit you to only certain types of medical treatments and to > only certain facilities and doctors. We got to use one of the best > pulmonologists in the area when he needed a pulmonologist. Now that my > husband is battling cancer we were able to choose one of the best radiation > oncologists on the east coast and still use the local radiation oncology > department for a portion of his treatment so that he did not have to travel > 4 hours a day for treatment. He was able to continue working and really was > only a few minutes late for work daily for 5 weeks. Time he could make up at > lunch without losing his 40 hours. This was a better alternative to us than > using the more standard treatment for this type of cancer; surgery and six > weeks of lost wages while home recuperating. > So really it is a trade off. We have the bills but we also got exactly the > type of treatment we wanted from the people and facilities we chose. His > work is not interrupted. So he will continue to be the main income provider. > And with this superior treatment I should have him around for another 30 > years or more! > Of course there is one other thing we could do. Bankrupt. Not something I > would even want to consider but it is a last resort. People do it. > As long as we have income I will continue to pay the bills. It has taken > almost 2 years but I just about have the pulmonologist paid off. When the > bill hits zero it will free up another $50/month I can put towards another > bill. > So what if one of us gets sick again? The bills get stacked/combined etc. > Our local hospital cannot deny treatment as long as we are faithfully paying > on our bills. It has something to do with ethics. > We do ask the doctors to prescribe generic or cheaper brands if possible. > And fortunately neither one of us is on any daily meds, not including my > naprosyn. So the Rx problem is usually a limited one time item. > How do we do it? We don’t make a whole lot of money. I think we would easily > be considered the working poor these days. We own our house (well, the bank > does-LOL) in a beautiful Historic neighborhood. We drive reasonably decent > cars. And we live pretty ordinary lives. That means we don’t go away on > fancy vacations, I don’t go shopping as a hobby, we don’t have cable TV,etc. > What is often considered normal in some households would be pure luxury > here. Our big panic right now is wondering if the 28 year old AC unit will > work this summer as we cannot afford $6,000 to replace it. It is not > considered fixable because it is too old. (Window units? Not supposed to > have them in a Historic District)  It wasn’t supposed to work last year but > it did. So who knows. > I still think we are better off without insurance. At least we can chose our > doctors and treatments. Now, you also know why I work. > Sorry this is so long. > Bev

Response:

I truly understand the situation that you are in with wanting and getting the best medical care regardless of the cost! Also I thought that I would mention if you ever did decide to file bankruptcy you would be in good company.  Look at all of the major national chain stores that had to do so!  I also understand that you want to pay the bills as long as you can regardless of the bill tightening that had to go with it.  We do what we have to do to survive in this life. That is great that George has not had to miss work with his illness and treatments.  But you would figure it out if he did have to! Do take care of yourself too!!! Will add your a/c to my prayers for you and George.  When it rains it usually pours. My sister-in-law owns a house in a Historical area of El Paso and she has to be very careful of what she can do to the house also especially the outside of it. Here’s wishing that someone buys you a lottery ticket and you hit the big one! Hugs, Sherry "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message

news:ucarjl26uflm8f@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Since this seems to keep cropping up I decided I’d start a new thread and > see what happens. Having no insurance is not easy. Plans vary in the USA > often depending on what an employer has available. > If you really are poor you do get help, Medicaid. And with Medicaid often > comes some other help in the form of housing assistance and food stamps. The > amount varies depending upon which State within the USA you live. > Most folks do have insurance. I don’t know the numbers but I do know there > is a very high percentage of folks that do not have any insurance.  Of > course the nice thing would be to have enough money to be considered self > insured! But many folks are sitting in a position much like ourselves, > employers offer insurance but we cannot afford the premiums (monthly > payments). Insurance where my husband works would be over $400/month. That > is a big chunk of money for us so we declined insurance. > Then George got sick seriously sick, not once but twice. First was not quite > 2 years ago. He had a lung infection. The medical bills for that staggered > to almost $8,000. During that bout of sickness upon routine examination and > blood work it was discovered he had another problem. They said it needed to > be investigated further when we had the chance. So about a year later we > returned for an additional exam and biopsy. Cancer! > This time the bills are mounting to what we expect will be about $35,000 for > cancer treatment, alone. How, do we pay it? Slowly. Every month we pay small > amounts to each medical bill. Our biggest bill right now is to the local > hospital. They do something called stacking the bills where others are > combining them into one account. So for instance, we pay $50/month to the > one hospital. They credit one of the bills until that one disappears and > then start with the next bill.  Quite honestly at that rate it will take us > 18 years to pay off the bill. > The big hospital where my husband is going for his cancer has a different > set-up but it is probably better for us. They combine all the actual > hospital bills into one account and all the doctors associated with the > hospital into another account.  So that is another $100/month, $50 to each > account. > But you have to get on the phone to the billing offices and beg for payments > that fit the budget. They will work with you!! But then you have to stick > with what you promise. I have promised $25 to several bills but pay $50, > knowing if I do have a problem one month I can drop it down to the $25. > I’m still paying the pulmonologist from 2 years ago and every once in a > while another odd bill floats in because some radiologist read a chest X-ray > or cat-scan. Or some lab/pathologist charges us for some sort of blood work. > Often these little bills can just totally foul up our payment system mostly > because they are unexpected and usually several hundred dollars. > My often foggy little brain has to really try hard to keep up with > everything. We got one bill in for almost $3,000 for a pathology report. > REPORT!!!! The pathology lab was less than $300. Naturally, I got on the > phone about that one and it seemed to vanish. I think someone made a mistake > and hit too many zeros while typing in the bill. It’s a wee bit harder > because I am the only one looking at  what we are being charged for and I > have to understand the charges or I pick up the phone and don’t let up until > I understand the charges. > The good thing is not one of these bills have interest charged on them. So > each payment does reduce the balance. If I quit paying somebody I’d get into > big trouble fast. If something comes up I could probably skip a month if I > asked first. Communication is very important with billing offices. > The strange thing is – if my husband were to lose his job today most of > these bills would vanish as we would fall under Medicaid and they will back > pay up to 3 months of medical bills incurred. Of course if he were to be > laid off we’d also probably lose everything including our house! So, no, > having him laid off to prevent us from having to pay medical bills doesn’t > work very well! (LOL) > So right now we are paying out about $300 a month in medical bills. Most > everybody is getting 50 and some getting 25 per month. It’s a lot of money > for us. That is also why I don’t want to incur any more bills. For instance > if I go to a Rheumy it will probably be $180 up front and then blood work > $300? and who knows what else. See the problem? > On the other hand having no insurance gave us the freedom to choose who we > wanted and to make sure my husband is getting the very best care. Most > insurance plans limit you to only certain types of medical treatments and to > only certain facilities and doctors. We got to use one of the best > pulmonologists in the area when he needed a pulmonologist. Now that my > husband is battling cancer we were able to choose one of the best radiation > oncologists on the east coast and still use the local radiation oncology > department for a portion of his treatment so that he did not have to travel > 4 hours a day for treatment. He was able to continue working and really was > only a few minutes late for work daily for 5 weeks. Time he could make up at > lunch without losing his 40 hours. This was a better alternative to us than > using the more standard treatment for this type of cancer; surgery and six > weeks of lost wages while home recuperating. > So really it is a trade off. We have the bills but we also got exactly the > type of treatment we wanted from the people and facilities we chose. His > work is not interrupted. So he will continue to be the main income provider. > And with this superior treatment I should have him around for another 30 > years or more! > Of course there is one other thing we could do. Bankrupt. Not something I > would even want to consider but it is a last resort. People do it. > As long as we have income I will continue to pay the bills. It has taken > almost 2 years but I just about have the pulmonologist paid off. When the > bill hits zero it will free up another $50/month I can put towards another > bill. > So what if one of us gets sick again? The bills get stacked/combined etc. > Our local hospital cannot deny treatment as long as we are faithfully paying > on our bills. It has something to do with ethics. > We do ask the doctors to prescribe generic or cheaper brands if possible. > And fortunately neither one of us is on any daily meds, not including my > naprosyn. So the Rx problem is usually a limited one time item. > How do we do it? We don’t make a whole lot of money. I think we would easily > be considered the working poor these days. We own our house (well, the bank > does-LOL) in a beautiful Historic neighborhood. We drive reasonably decent > cars. And we live pretty ordinary lives. That means we don’t go away on > fancy vacations, I don’t go shopping as a hobby, we don’t have cable TV,etc. > What is often considered normal in some households would be pure luxury > here. Our big panic right now is wondering if the 28 year old AC unit will > work this summer as we cannot afford $6,000 to replace it. It is not > considered fixable because it is too old. (Window units? Not supposed to > have them in a Historic District)  It wasn’t supposed to work last year but > it did. So who knows. > I still think we are better off without insurance. At least we can chose our > doctors and treatments. Now, you also know why I work. > Sorry this is so long. > Bev

Response:

Since this seems to keep cropping up I decided I’d start a new thread and see what happens. Having no insurance is not easy. Plans vary in the USA often depending on what an employer has available. If you really are poor you do get help, Medicaid. And with Medicaid often comes some other help in the form of housing assistance and food stamps. The amount varies depending upon which State within the USA you live. Most folks do have insurance. I don’t know the numbers but I do know there is a very high percentage of folks that do not have any insurance.  Of course the nice thing would be to have enough money to be considered self insured! But many folks are sitting in a position much like ourselves, employers offer insurance but we cannot afford the premiums (monthly payments). Insurance where my husband works would be over $400/month. That is a big chunk of money for us so we declined insurance. Then George got sick seriously sick, not once but twice. First was not quite 2 years ago. He had a lung infection. The medical bills for that staggered to almost $8,000. During that bout of sickness upon routine examination and blood work it was discovered he had another problem. They said it needed to be investigated further when we had the chance. So about a year later we returned for an additional exam and biopsy. Cancer! This time the bills are mounting to what we expect will be about $35,000 for cancer treatment, alone. How, do we pay it? Slowly. Every month we pay small amounts to each medical bill. Our biggest bill right now is to the local hospital. They do something called stacking the bills where others are combining them into one account. So for instance, we pay $50/month to the one hospital. They credit one of the bills until that one disappears and then start with the next bill.  Quite honestly at that rate it will take us 18 years to pay off the bill. The big hospital where my husband is going for his cancer has a different set-up but it is probably better for us. They combine all the actual hospital bills into one account and all the doctors associated with the hospital into another account.  So that is another $100/month, $50 to each account. But you have to get on the phone to the billing offices and beg for payments that fit the budget. They will work with you!! But then you have to stick with what you promise. I have promised $25 to several bills but pay $50, knowing if I do have a problem one month I can drop it down to the $25. I’m still paying the pulmonologist from 2 years ago and every once in a while another odd bill floats in because some radiologist read a chest X-ray or cat-scan. Or some lab/pathologist charges us for some sort of blood work. Often these little bills can just totally foul up our payment system mostly because they are unexpected and usually several hundred dollars. My often foggy little brain has to really try hard to keep up with everything. We got one bill in for almost $3,000 for a pathology report. REPORT!!!! The pathology lab was less than $300. Naturally, I got on the phone about that one and it seemed to vanish. I think someone made a mistake and hit too many zeros while typing in the bill. It’s a wee bit harder because I am the only one looking at  what we are being charged for and I have to understand the charges or I pick up the phone and don’t let up until I understand the charges. The good thing is not one of these bills have interest charged on them. So each payment does reduce the balance. If I quit paying somebody I’d get into big trouble fast. If something comes up I could probably skip a month if I asked first. Communication is very important with billing offices. The strange thing is – if my husband were to lose his job today most of these bills would vanish as we would fall under Medicaid and they will back pay up to 3 months of medical bills incurred. Of course if he were to be laid off we’d also probably lose everything including our house! So, no, having him laid off to prevent us from having to pay medical bills doesn’t work very well! (LOL) So right now we are paying out about $300 a month in medical bills. Most everybody is getting 50 and some getting 25 per month. It’s a lot of money for us. That is also why I don’t want to incur any more bills. For instance if I go to a Rheumy it will probably be $180 up front and then blood work $300? and who knows what else. See the problem? On the other hand having no insurance gave us the freedom to choose who we wanted and to make sure my husband is getting the very best care. Most insurance plans limit you to only certain types of medical treatments and to only certain facilities and doctors. We got to use one of the best pulmonologists in the area when he needed a pulmonologist. Now that my husband is battling cancer we were able to choose one of the best radiation oncologists on the east coast and still use the local radiation oncology department for a portion of his treatment so that he did not have to travel 4 hours a day for treatment. He was able to continue working and really was only a few minutes late for work daily for 5 weeks. Time he could make up at lunch without losing his 40 hours. This was a better alternative to us than using the more standard treatment for this type of cancer; surgery and six weeks of lost wages while home recuperating. So really it is a trade off. We have the bills but we also got exactly the type of treatment we wanted from the people and facilities we chose. His work is not interrupted. So he will continue to be the main income provider. And with this superior treatment I should have him around for another 30 years or more! Of course there is one other thing we could do. Bankrupt. Not something I would even want to consider but it is a last resort. People do it. As long as we have income I will continue to pay the bills. It has taken almost 2 years but I just about have the pulmonologist paid off. When the bill hits zero it will free up another $50/month I can put towards another bill. So what if one of us gets sick again? The bills get stacked/combined etc. Our local hospital cannot deny treatment as long as we are faithfully paying on our bills. It has something to do with ethics. We do ask the doctors to prescribe generic or cheaper brands if possible. And fortunately neither one of us is on any daily meds, not including my naprosyn. So the Rx problem is usually a limited one time item. How do we do it? We don’t make a whole lot of money. I think we would easily be considered the working poor these days. We own our house (well, the bank does-LOL) in a beautiful Historic neighborhood. We drive reasonably decent cars. And we live pretty ordinary lives. That means we don’t go away on fancy vacations, I don’t go shopping as a hobby, we don’t have cable TV,etc. What is often considered normal in some households would be pure luxury here. Our big panic right now is wondering if the 28 year old AC unit will work this summer as we cannot afford $6,000 to replace it. It is not considered fixable because it is too old. (Window units? Not supposed to have them in a Historic District)  It wasn’t supposed to work last year but it did. So who knows. I still think we are better off without insurance. At least we can chose our doctors and treatments. Now, you also know why I work. Sorry this is so long. Bev

Response:

Question:

IN TODAY’S NEWS FDA GAGS OFF-LABEL DRUG INFORMATION The Food and Drug Administration considers any company promoting off-label use of any drug it produces to be engaged in a criminal offense.  In other words, the manufacturer cannot inform doctors that a particular drug approved to fight one disease may be useful in fighting a different disease for which it is not approved. Experts say this kind of censorship is costing lives.  It also puts doctors in the position of committing malpractice if they fail to prescribe an off-label use of a drug they know to be effective.    o   According to the General Accounting Office, 25 percent of        anti-cancer drugs are prescribed off-label.    o   And 56 percent of cancer patients have been given at least        one drug off-label.    o   An FDA official says the agency approves of doctors        learning about off-label uses from seminars, textbooks,        the Internet or colleagues.    o   But it does not permit doctors to receive reprints of        medical journal articles from pharmaceutical firms — even        if the reprint discloses that the use discussed has not        been approved by the FDA. A year ago, federal Judge Royce Lambeth struck down these FDA restrictions on constitutional free-speech grounds.  But the FDA asked the court to declare that it need not adhere to the constitutional principles.  Since the judge has yet to rule on the agency’s request, the FDA continues to enforce its gag rule on manufacturers. A case in point is spironolactone, a drug approved decades ago to treat water retention.  Just recently it has been found to reduce congestive heart failure.  So dramatic are the results that the New England Journal of Medicine just this week rushed into print a study reporting reduced death rates of 30 percent over two years. But under the FDA rules, doctors won’t be receiving reprints of the article from the drug’s manufacturer any time soon. Source: Daniel E. Troy (American Enterprise Institute), "FDA Censorship Could Cost Lives," Wall Street Journal, July 23, 1999. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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In article <7nr7nk$n9…@nnrp1.deja.com>,   cowboy <cow…@nmda.nmsu.edu> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> IN TODAY’S NEWS > FDA GAGS OFF-LABEL DRUG INFORMATION > The Food and Drug Administration considers any company promoting > off-label use of any drug it produces to be engaged in a criminal > offense.  In other words, the manufacturer cannot inform doctors > that a particular drug approved to fight one disease may be > useful in fighting a different disease for which it is not > approved. > Experts say this kind of censorship is costing lives.  It also > puts doctors in the position of committing malpractice if they > fail to prescribe an off-label use of a drug they know to be > effective. >    o   According to the General Accounting Office, 25 percent of >        anti-cancer drugs are prescribed off-label. >    o   And 56 percent of cancer patients have been given at least >        one drug off-label. >    o   An FDA official says the agency approves of doctors >        learning about off-label uses from seminars, textbooks, >        the Internet or colleagues. >    o   But it does not permit doctors to receive reprints of >        medical journal articles from pharmaceutical firms — even >        if the reprint discloses that the use discussed has not >        been approved by the FDA. > A year ago, federal Judge Royce Lambeth struck down these FDA > restrictions on constitutional free-speech grounds.  But the FDA > asked the court to declare that it need not adhere to the > constitutional principles.  Since the judge has yet to rule on > the agency’s request, the FDA continues to enforce its gag rule > on manufacturers. > A case in point is spironolactone, a drug approved decades ago to > treat water retention.  Just recently it has been found to reduce > congestive heart failure.  So dramatic are the results that the > New England Journal of Medicine just this week rushed into print > a study reporting reduced death rates of 30 percent over two > years. > But under the FDA rules, doctors won’t be receiving reprints of > the article from the drug’s manufacturer any time soon. > Source: Daniel E. Troy (American Enterprise Institute), "FDA > Censorship Could Cost Lives," Wall Street Journal, July 23, 1999. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

I can’t believe this.  The Government is only here to HELP us aand they would do nothing wrong. Look how good they are in helping us keep 4-AP. Also, he did not have sex with that woman ….. and there is a cure for MS buried in Pharoh’s tomb. gordon Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

Our company is looking for a accounting package. Any suggestions?? Currently reviewing solomon IV (MS SQL version) Anyone know of this system? All suggestions appreciated. Patrick Kwok

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Without knowing what your organization does, it is tough to tell you for sure what to look at.  But it is probably worth your time to investigate Dynamics C/S+ from Great Plains Software.  Call 1-800-456-0025 to get the name of a VAR in your area or check out their web site at http:/www.gps.com. Alan C. Whitehouse The Resource Group Renton, WA Great Plains Software VAR & ISV – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our company is looking for a accounting package. Any suggestions?? Currently reviewing solomon IV (MS SQL version) Anyone know of this system? All suggestions appreciated. Patrick Kwok

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Soloman’s implementation on MS SQL has been less than exemplary.  The Btrieve version seems to be much more stable.  Since the core product is designed to run on multiple platforms they can’t optimize it for any one – and this is certainly the case with the MS SQL version. Although I’m biased, you should really take a look at State of the Art’s Acuity Financials product.  It was developed from the ground up to be a 32-bit, MS SQL product.  This State of the Art product has won Microsoft’s Backoffice Challenge the last two years for Best Technology Integration. This is really the way to go!  For information on Acuity, you can check out State of the Art’s web site: www.sota.com/acuity. Check out the following link for information regarding the major change of direction of Soloman IV development: http://www.informatic-inc.com/sotumessage398.htm Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our company is looking for a accounting package. Any suggestions?? Currently reviewing solomon IV (MS SQL version) Anyone know of this system? All suggestions appreciated. Patrick Kwok

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what type of business and how much are you wanting to spend?

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    I’m looking for help.  Specifically, I’m looking for any pointers people can give me towards resources about dealing with financial realities and ADD.  I’ve managed to nearly spend myself into the ground, and a lot of this comes from failing to pay attention to financial details, playing games with "that’ll take two days to clear, so…", etc.  It’s reaching the point where it’s making it very hard for me to live, despite the fact that I’ve got a decent job. So, I need to do something to get myself organized and back together on the financial front, and make sure this never happens again.     So, any pointers either towards resources to help me deal with this or tips are greatly appreciated… "What do you mean you sold 2000% of the show? We’re ruined!" "No, only if makes money." — "The Producers"

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    I’m looking for help.  Specifically, I’m looking for any pointers people can give me towards resources about dealing with financial realities and ADD.  I’ve managed to nearly spend myself into the ground, and a lot of this comes from failing to pay attention to financial details, playing games with "that’ll take two days to clear, so…", etc.  It’s reaching the point where it’s making it very hard for me to live, despite the fact that I’ve got a decent job. So, I need to do something to get myself organized and back together on the financial front, and make sure this never happens again.     So, any pointers either towards resources to help me deal with this or tips are greatly appreciated…

My Quicken program helps alot. I do however suffer from the procrastination related to ADD. Sometimes the transactions take a little time getting in the computer. (remember) always back-up your data. I ususally have to wait until I get in that whirl-wind where I get a few things done at a time.

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Steven – I know of a bookkeeping business in the small town I live in that budgets money for their clients.  The client’s paycheck is direct deposited in an account that the bookkeeping company uses to pay all the bills.  I also heard they managed the savings budget and sent money into the savings plan of the client’s choice.  After the money was distributed to pay bills and contribute to a savings plan the client was given the balance in cash which was to be used for groceries, gas, and other expenses. Maybe a service like this can be found near you.  Maybe this would help. Anyway, I sympathize with your dilema and hope this helps. Peace & Light, Brenda

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Ya money is a problem for me too. It is an example of spontanious something. I have cut up cards that I use only to spend. I have set  many of my payments up to be taken monthly directly from my account. I do try to write down what I spend money on. This is successful according to my mood. I did find that I spend a lot on restaurants because I enjoy the ineteraction with others and on courses and books. I have been able to cut down all three since I now know that I am doing it. Good luck

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i know a guy in Tucson who uses a service like this!  he makes enough money, and knows his bills can be paid, but hates doing it himself. i forget how much he pays, but it does cost.  but, everything gets paid on time, and he  gets an itemized list of all the bills that were paid. -michaels.

: Steven – : I know of a bookkeeping business in the small town I live in that : budgets money for their clients.  The client’s paycheck is direct : deposited in an account that the bookkeeping company uses to pay all the : bills.  I also heard they managed the savings budget and sent money into : the savings plan of the client’s choice.  After the money was : distributed to pay bills and contribute to a savings plan the client was : given the balance in cash which was to be used for groceries, gas, and : other expenses. : Maybe a service like this can be found near you.  Maybe this would help. : Anyway, I sympathize with your dilema and hope this helps. : Peace & Light, : Brenda

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as another poster mentioned, i wouldn’t use credit cards, debit cards, or any other from of plastic.  i almost exclusively use checks now, because it is *one* system that i have to worry about.  i typically pay my plastic off bi-monthly– so my checking account feels the crunch sooner, than later.  my credit card company (AT&T) has an easy system to check the balance at any time of the day or night. a lot of people (IMO) seem to forget that credit cards can be used for at least two different purposes: financing (no intent to pay in the near future), and as payment. (intend to pay in the near future).  the book, "personal finance for dummys" makes a point that there are two kinds of debt: good and bad (surprise, surprise!). thank goodness there are only two kinds. (unlike the food groups) you may want to see what that book has to say about this.  but, it helped me focus on the *intent* (financing vs. payment) and *consequences* (good debt vs. bad  debt) of my purchases. my biggest advice, as i said above, is simply making whatever system you use as simple as possible.  for me, trying to track ATM, POS, checks, and charges was just too much work.  i don’t think that this is ADD.  microsoft did a study, and the majority of people they interviewed balanced their checkbooks, etc.., when the balance came at the end of the month!  now, instead of splitting my payments among multiple methods, my checkbook now handles nearly 90% of my financial transactions.  and, i am getting pretty good at writing my transactions down– since i am getting good at a *single* method.  i no longer worry about where i am going to store my ATM, POS, and charge receipts. i’m sure that microsoft is looking at methods of combining ATM, POS, check, and charge data easily! i no longer take money to the store with me, if i am not clear about what i want to buy! [i try to seperate decision from purchase]  i like using physical limitations such as using my bike to go grocery shopping. my car can carry more than my ability to pay and use.  each item i pick up takes up *precious* space in my backpack!  –hence, each item fights for space!  maybe a deal a meal system would work with spending? moving your budgeted dollars from available to spent? if doing this was so easy, i think that their wouldn’t be a profession called accounting! -best luck, michaels.

:     I’m looking for help.  Specifically, I’m looking for any pointers : people can give me towards resources about dealing with financial : realities and ADD.  I’ve managed to nearly spend myself into the : ground, and a lot of this comes from failing to pay attention to : financial details, playing games with "that’ll take two days to : clear, so…", etc.  It’s reaching the point where it’s making it : very hard for me to live, despite the fact that I’ve got a decent job. : So, I need to do something to get myself organized and back together : on the financial front, and make sure this never happens again. :     So, any pointers either towards resources to help me deal with this : or tips are greatly appreciated… : "What do you mean you sold 2000% of the show? We’re ruined!" "No, only : if makes money." — "The Producers"

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I have found that Microsoft Money97 is the best in trying to track finances as I also had a horrible time with numbers.  The program is very graphic and keeps you reminded of monthly bills that are due.  You can also use the checkfree service and it will pay and mail your payments for you hope it helps mark

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Question:

Has anyone else noticed the change of Alexander Aeroplane to Aircraft Spruce East?

snip Last Christmas my significant other decided to suprise me by ordering a few items on my homebuilderwish list.  She ordered some books and other materials from  Aircraft Spruce two (2) months in advance of Christmas. Every week she called them up and they promised her the "stuff will arrive here any day now."  True to what they said, "any day" arrived in early January.

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My significant other switched over to Alexander after her run of bad luck with Aircraft Spruce & Specialty.  With the new catalog in hand, she ordered me a birthday gift and it arrived on time, just like one would expect from Alexander Aeroplane.  What she did not expect was the invoice reading a 40% price increase.  She called Aircraft Spruce East and tried to explain that she had not been told of the price increase while ordering the item by phone.  Aircraft Spruce East told her to call back customer relations, which is long distance.  She was put on hold for 10 minutes and then shuffled around a half dozen times to different people who kept transferring her until she ended up with someone asking for her order. She was less than happy and insisted on speaking to someone there who made decisions. She was then transferred to a customer representative who told her that she should have used a "current" catalog. Asking whether the latest catalog (being less a week old) was current enough, she was told that it was her responsibilty to ask if the price had changed. I am grateful that I was nowhere around when my significant other was on the phone, because "really pissed" would be a mild description of how she felt after being treated in this manner. A complaint was left and a promise to call her back was made by Aircraft Spruce. Much to the credit of Aircraft Spruce East, a manager called back and agreed to only charge her the price listed in the catalog.

another snip Bye Bye Alexander Aeroplane. We are truly going to miss you and all of the good things you have done for us.

I have had way too many experiences like that with ACS, but I can tell you that as bad as they are now, they are much improved over what they were a few years ago. A few weeks ago I compared ACS buying Alexander to Sears buying Nordstroms.  I still feel that way.  I hope that ACS learns from whats left of the AA crew, and not the other way around. About your only option is Wicks 800-221-9425.  They’re better than Spruce, not as good as Alexander, with a selection that’s between the two as well. — Richard Riley 300,000 KpH — it’s not just a good idea, it’s the law. My opinions are only mine, and they’re worth what you paid for them.

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Ron used to have a weekly staff meeting which always ended by reading the credo in which he firmly believed.  That credo was that every employee must do what it takes to satisfy the needs of the customer, that it is the customers who will keep the company alive so treat them well.  Ron has not left, he’s still there.  The name has changed and the proceedures, but the committment to you the customer is still there.

Yes, but JT in sales has left the company. I’m not sure of the reason or the problems, but she always treated our company with the best service you could ever ask for. I have never met "JT in Sales", but I can tell you, I will miss her. Douglas Karlsen Turbine Design Inc. Turbine Seawind built

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else noticed the change of Alexander Aeroplane to Aircraft Spruce East? I went out of my way to support Alexander Aeroplane, even when their prices were a little bit higher than Aircraft Spruce & Specialty on a couple of items.  Alexander always provided me with good products and great service. However, I seem to have a terrible run of luck with Aircraft Spruce and Specialty.  More than half of the time, the items I was ordering from current catalogs had increased in price or were not in stock. What I found to be especially frustrating was not being told that items were not in stock and to expect a delay. Last Christmas my significant other decided to suprise me by ordering a few items on my homebuilderwish list.  She ordered some books and other materials from  Aircraft Spruce two (2) months in advance of Christmas. Every week she called them up and they promised her the "stuff will arrive here any day now."  True to what they said, "any day" arrived in early January. The new Alexander Aeroplane catalog arrived in my mailbox a few weeks ago, but the name had been changed to Aircraft Spruce East. My thoughts on the matter were neutral at the time.  I was hopeful that things would continue to run smoothly, just as they always had when ordering products from Alexander Aeroplane. My thoughts were soon answered.

Two things of interest here Mr. Average Homebuilder, 1. Ron Alexander announced the buyout to this group several months ago after which the usual comments flew back and forth and several lamented the situation as you have.   2. I have in the past advocated going to the source for answers to questions and decided your post deserved a call to Alexander Aeroplane, or rather Aircraft Spruce East.  The woman who answered the phone said that they were going through a transition period right now in which they learn the accounting, sales and inventory procedures as used by the new owners.  Inventory has to be upgraded since Aircraft Spruce has many items Alexander Aeroplane did not carry.  New shelf space must be created and items cataloged and shelved.  All this is happening at a furious pace but, and this was the answer I was really looking for, the same old committment to customer satisfaction remains paramount at Aircraft Spruce East as it did when it was called Alexander Aeroplane. Ron used to have a weekly staff meeting which always ended by reading the credo in which he firmly believed.  That credo was that every employee must do what it takes to satisfy the needs of the customer, that it is the customers who will keep the company alive so treat them well.  Ron has not left, he’s still there.  The name has changed and the proceedures, but the committment to you the customer is still there. Expect some delays for a little while though as they stock up and learn the new computer system, she said it was like hellweek down there right now. Hope this helps. Corky Scott

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Has anyone else noticed the change of Alexander Aeroplane to Aircraft Spruce East? I went out of my way to support Alexander Aeroplane, even when their prices were a little bit higher than Aircraft Spruce & Specialty on a couple of items.  Alexander always provided me with good products and great service. However, I seem to have a terrible run of luck with Aircraft Spruce and Specialty.  More than half of the time, the items I was ordering from current catalogs had increased in price or were not in stock. What I found to be especially frustrating was not being told that items were not in stock and to expect a delay. Last Christmas my significant other decided to suprise me by ordering a few items on my homebuilderwish list.  She ordered some books and other materials from  Aircraft Spruce two (2) months in advance of Christmas. Every week she called them up and they promised her the "stuff will arrive here any day now."  True to what they said, "any day" arrived in early January. The new Alexander Aeroplane catalog arrived in my mailbox a few weeks ago, but the name had been changed to Aircraft Spruce East. My thoughts on the matter were neutral at the time.  I was hopeful that things would continue to run smoothly, just as they always had when ordering products from Alexander Aeroplane. My thoughts were soon answered. My significant other switched over to Alexander after her run of bad luck with Aircraft Spruce & Specialty.  With the new catalog in hand, she ordered me a birthday gift and it arrived on time, just like one would expect from Alexander Aeroplane.  What she did not expect was the invoice reading a 40% price increase.  She called Aircraft Spruce East and tried to explain that she had not been told of the price increase while ordering the item by phone.  Aircraft Spruce East told her to call back customer relations, which is long distance.  She was put on hold for 10 minutes and then shuffled around a half dozen times to different people who kept transferring her until she ended up with someone asking for her order. She was less than happy and insisted on speaking to someone there who made decisions. She was then transferred to a customer representative who told her that she should have used a "current" catalog. Asking whether the latest catalog (being less a week old) was current enough, she was told that it was her responsibilty to ask if the price had changed. I am grateful that I was nowhere around when my significant other was on the phone, because "really pissed" would be a mild description of how she felt after being treated in this manner. A complaint was left and a promise to call her back was made by Aircraft Spruce. Much to the credit of Aircraft Spruce East, a manager called back and agreed to only charge her the price listed in the catalog. Perhaps it is just me, my significant other, and a few of my friends who have had such a terrible run of luck with Aircraft Spruce. Perhaps our luck will change, but in the mean time, I would really like the names and phone numbers of other available homebuilt aircraft suppliers. Please post them here on this newsgroup. Many thanks in advance. Having made a short story, long … Bye Bye Alexander Aeroplane. We are truly going to miss you and all of the good things you have done for us.

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