Question:

    Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children."  It is not, as those who make the statement know very well.  It’s owed to the mothers of the children.  However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.   —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —

Response:

    Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children."  It is not, as those who make the statement know very well.  It’s owed to the mothers of the children.  However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.

The other usual lie is in this article too – Claiming how the CS program "collected" millions of dollars.  Most of that money is paid voluntarily by fathers and the CS program does have to lift a finger to "collect" any of it.  It’s total garbage for any state CS program, supported by federal laws mandating employer garnishment orders, to take credit for actions they never do.

Response:

This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.

I’ve heard of cases where the moment a guy gets out of jail the DA slaps him with a felony non-payment of child support charge. Of course, the idea that non-payment of a debt should be a felony is ridiculous and overreaching. Criminalizing historically non-criminal conduct is a recent fetish of legislatures across the country. Check out www.overcriminalized.com.

Response:

    Nebraska is 10 years statute of limitations, Iowa has no statute of limitations….and Iowa is one of the BIG offenders of abusing men.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. T

Response:

  I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude   just has a criminal record. Gotcha.     It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction   for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender"     It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other   states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go   directly to jail.     Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free"   card does work.  Wish I had one of those…     California has a ‘three strikes’ law.  The first two have to be violent   felonies, but the third does not have to be violent.     Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent,   also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form.  I mean, c’mon,   if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I   questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult.   If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions,  it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’     —   Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?

Response:

  If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions,  it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’

It could just as easily be felony conviction of "failure to pay" one’s CS…

Response:

LMAO! It is NEVER about the kids! It is about politics. There has been some form of support enforcement program available for YEARS. So how is it that the government officials who ARE RESPONSIBLE for enforcing the support orders in the first place ever let the arrearage in this case reach more than $43,000??? Incompetance, that’s how! So now to cover their incompetence, they point the finger at "dead-beat dad’s:"! Quite correct, if the man is in Jail, then he wont be able to pay ANYTHING. and, as usual, the children will suffer – right along with the dad – while some politician cites "vicotry" ‘in the best interests of the child". Given the other stories about ‘lost" child support funds, I suspect that all the government is doing is using this as a cash grab. the money will eventually be collected, but the system will "mysteriously" lose the money somehow! So, again, the father suffers, and the children suffer. What a load of crap. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back.  ~Author Unknown

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy.  I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments.  This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.

Oh yeah, that is probaly a right assumption. I thought the habitual thing was CS related, not just over all criminal record. My bad. lol

Response:

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????

I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy.  I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments.  This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies. How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?

State laws vary in making that determination.  Most have laws keeping the CS judgement active for a 7-10 year period.  After that the CS judgment can be re-upped for an additional  7-10 year period.  So, in theory, the state can continue to go after the obligor forever.

Response:

I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free" card does work.  Wish I had one of those…

California has a ‘three strikes’ law.  The first two have to be violent felonies, but the third does not have to be violent. Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent, also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form.  I mean, c’mon, if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult. — Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?   "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????   How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?   T   Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" . The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined. I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha.

It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free" card does work.  Wish I had one of those…

Response:

Depends on what state you’re in. Some don’t allow for collection of arrearages afert three years…some 20, some, as Dusty said, no limit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T As I understand it..  there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS.  So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?   "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????   How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?   T   Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" .  The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.

I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him? "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?

It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T

Response:

    There is probably a lot in play that isn’t being said here.     He may have had an order he was paying on ( same here 1987 order…lot of confusion involved with changes in custody back and forth ), she contacts CSE or CSRU and they get involved ( automatically, the amounts seem to take on astronomical proportions) with the state suddenly impuning wages that may or may not exist and may or may not ( but most likely ) inflate those wages, add on what the state says has been rendered to CP for support services, WIC, HHS services for food, health, dental, legal ( and it keeps adding ), plus interest ( Iowa tags on an additional 10% annually to arrearages ).     It is very possible this poor schmuck has nothing, never had anything, and now he never will. CSRU can hound you to the grave unless you can derail them. In my case, I have been denied services by Legal Aid ( although Iowa did give me an attorney that quit one day before the initial court hearing, leaving me to represent myself ), Volunteer Lawyers have refused assistance ( lawyers are required to do so much Pro Bono work annually, I have been told ) because it is an interstate case, Iowa refuses to relinquish any claims to jurisdiction, even though I have never been a resident of Iowa, the divorce was not in Iowa, and no one ( not the ex or the children ) reside in Iowa any longer….and they are in violation of 28 USC 1738A ( also known as the "Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act" ).     So, in short, they get to change the rules, reinterpret law to suit their purpose, and they will do everything ( including breaking laws and rules ) to keep the man paying. I have YET to see a single mother be pursued in this fashion, making this a very gender based ( biased, prejudiced ) system. If you can find ANY enforcements of this sort and extreme on record being done against a woman, I’d like to see it.     Anyone?     It ain’t just Michigan, and it ain’t just the guys making in the new reports. This stuff is happening every day, and from my observation ( jaded as it is ), it is usually the guys that have paid or have made the effort that are being reamed the worst. The true "deadbeats" are seldom ever heard from.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Response:

    Iowa has no statute of limitations, and so may Michigan. They can harass a man to his grave and take anything of value left in his estate at his death to satisfy their liens, levies, and arrearages.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

Response:

    <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?           "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????       How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?     T     Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" .  The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.  

Response:

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

As I understand it..  there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS.  So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures.

Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website?

"McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point.

I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same

If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?

Response:

Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.   —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —

Response:

Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart

Todd Dick Mac? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler.

So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said.

"It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court.

Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back.   ~Author Unknown

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids. Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed.

I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right?

LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. T

Response:

Question:

Hi,         We are currently setting up our guidelines for accounting and before going down the wrong road with this does anyone know if there is a rule or logic that one should follow when a business is setting up a customer number?         I have seen customer numbers use all sorts of logic but was wondering if there is a guideline to use when creating one. Thanks all! Chig

Response:

    We are currently setting up our guidelines for accounting and before going down the wrong road with this does anyone know if there is a rule or logic that one should follow when a business is setting up a customer number?

No guidelines or general rules except that it has to be something that works for your business. If you have to look up the customer by name, then it has to be one that is very flexible so you can add new customers between existing ones (to keep them alphabetical I suppose). In any event, you have to have a system in place to be able to look up the customer by other methods, name, phone number, etc. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

Hi Chig In larger businesses, the account numbers assigned to customers have very definite patterns.  Before changing to SSN numbers, the drivers licenses of our state were calculated using both the Name of the individual AND their birthday separated by a rotational number, but all were exactly the same length the way the formula worked.  The last four digit sequence not only gave in mathematical code the birthdate, but also whether they were male or female. I myself loathe being a number, so for most of my customers, I use no numerical designation.  But in some cases, (namely for privacy) it does become a necessity to use an account number. Is your business one that can eventually expand to more offices, different states or possibly even different countries?  Wherein you are looking at tracking customers on a global scale. Or is it down home and only needs to track a few hundred or few thousand customers? Many account numbers contain the Year, or month and year the individual or company became a client, and often in what region or state they became a customer in.  In some cases, the account number also shows which ’salesperson’ or ’sales office’ initiated the account.  Sometimes even the day of the week and which week of the month is included in the coding system. It really depends upon your needs and if you want the account numbers to have some meaningful significance to you.  Many loan companies have a key number in their account numbers that shows how many times you have borrowed from their company, and you get what appears to be a different account number with each new loan. Some companies go way overboard with their numbering systems, having an account number for the client, a sub-account number for each order, which also has it’s separate order number, an invoice number and a statement number, all different. Just one point that many companies follow.  They do NOT normally assign account numbers sequentually.  Especially credit card companies or companies who give credit in the course of their business!  And this applies to other numbers also, such as tracking numbers, to prevent fraud. If you have ever shipped multiple packages through UPS, you will note that even if they all go to the same address, each parcel number (the last four digits) are NOT sequential.  Well, they are sequential, but with a large gap between the numbers themselves.  You know what I mean!  It helps prevent false missing package claims. You should ask yourself if it is even necessary or even beneficial to use account numbers in the first place.  If it is beneficial, what information should be contained in those numbers, besides the obvious customer number? TTUL Gary

Response:

Hi,     We are currently setting up our guidelines for accounting and before going down the wrong road with this does anyone know if there is a rule or logic that one should follow when a business is setting up a customer number?     I have seen customer numbers use all sorts of logic but was wondering if there is a guideline to use when creating one. Thanks all! Chig

Customers can adequately be identified with a simple sequential numbering. Technology allows you to search your files for a customer by his/her/their name, geographical location, year the account was opened, department if separate from others, etc.  Why wrestle with coming up with a scheme that isn’t going to work in every situation no matter what?  Let your computer do the work. Robert Crouser AdenaPro Solutions

Response:

My thoughts are this: I want the customer to one day soon be able to go onto the website and type in a so called number identifying them and to pull up information about their account. My concern is that I may have a large coporation with 2 divisions underneath so I don’t want to just have "Larg Corporation" but have it to where they are assigned some sort of code. Prospects are for just a few hundred to a thousand customers. The reason for all of this is because of QuickBooks Pro and the Job Listing. In the view, it only shows you the Name and not the company. If I assign it a customer number that’s all I get to see and that can become irratating if I don’t know the company (Keeping track of what customer number is who is not my ideal way). Thanks Gary! Chig

Response:

Hi,     We are currently setting up our guidelines for accounting and before going down the wrong road with this does anyone know if there is a rule or logic that one should follow when a business is setting up a customer number?     I have seen customer numbers use all sorts of logic but was wondering if there is a guideline to use when creating one. Thanks all! Chig

Most of our clients use the following methodology. The premise being: Businesses actively pursue Prospects; some Prospects will become Customers; some Prospects will say "I’ll deal with you, if you deal with me"; hence, the Customer may also be a Suppliers/Vendor; for that matter even Staff members may be Customers. With this in mind they set up a "Names" table containing all possible/required information (e.g. contact information, contact person(s) based upon area of responsibility, status flags such as Prospect, Customer, Supplier, Staff etc., etc.), there being virtually no limit to the number of fields that can be maintained in the table. Each "Name" is assigned a Names ID (usually system determined sequentially; since not every "Name" will be a Customer, the Customer Number "appears to be random"*). In our jargon the Names table is a global table as it will be linked to all other global or subledger tables where the Names are being utilized e.g. Customer – (Accounts Receivable Subledger(s)), Suppliers/Vendors – Accounts Payable Subledger(s), CRM system, or whatever. With respect to Prospects, the Names table will be used by the marketing people. *There is usually no good reason that the account number should not be used for any other information purposes, there are better ways of doing that. Also, if you have a small accounting department where one person may handle both AR and AP, some people find it beneficial to have the same Names ID for the same company, the differentiating factor being the General Ledger Account Number. Under this concept, you will have a single repository of Names and any change of address needs to be recorded only once and will automatically become visible in all linked tables. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA wolfgangATgestaltDOTcom www.gestalt.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My thoughts are this: I want the customer to one day soon be able to go onto the website and type in a so called number identifying them and to pull up information about their account. My concern is that I may have a large coporation with 2 divisions underneath so I don’t want to just have "Larg Corporation" but have it to where they are assigned some sort of code. Prospects are for just a few hundred to a thousand customers. The reason for all of this is because of QuickBooks Pro and the Job Listing. In the view, it only shows you the Name and not the company. If I assign it a customer number that’s all I get to see and that can become irratating if I don’t know the company (Keeping track of what customer number is who is not my ideal way). Thanks Gary! Chig

Obviously, you will have to work within the limitations of your software. Since I am not familiar with QuickBooks Pro, this response is generic. I still favor the idea that a Customer is a Customer of a Corporation, large or small, rather than having multiple customer accounts for the same entity dispersed over Divisions. This also simplifies Credit Management. Web reporting/interrogation is another matter and again software dependent. My recommendation would be … Wolfgang Rochow, CGA wolfgangATgestaltDOTcom www.gestalt.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My thoughts are this: I want the customer to one day soon be able to go onto the website and  type in a so called number identifying them and to pull up information about their account. My concern is that I may have a large coporation with 2 divisions underneath so I don’t want to just have "Larg Corporation" but have it to where they are assigned some sort of code. I still favor the idea that a Customer is a Customer of a Corporation, large or small, rather than having multiple customer accounts for the same entity dispersed over Divisions. This also simplifies Credit Management.

I worked for a multi-national brokerage corporation, where customers were given multiple account numbers based on which type of account they had. The woman who managed to coordinate the software design that brought all those accounts together on one monthly statement was generally hailed as a genius. The numbering system evolved into something 9 digit complex, but it basically looked something like: 1’s – Equities 2′2 – Margins 3’s – Employee & Family 4’s – Managed 5’s – IRA’s 6’s – Managed Subsidiary 7’s – Trusts 8’s – Fee based Also, if you pulled up the screen, you would see the branch and rep associated with the account. So, if I saw OH32Y 3374 424123364 I knew that the account was in Ohio, in the office of 32Y, handled by rep 3374, Also, could you have them log in under a "User ID" and then let them see the account(s) associated with that ID?  When logging into the internet, I think most users prefer to assign their own access criteria. I personally hate it when I have to try to remember a name or number that somebody else gave me.

Response:

I think most users prefer to assign their own access criteria. I personally hate it when I have to try to remember a name or number that somebody else gave me.

The biggest potential downfall of the internet as a business tool is the log-in / password fiasco.  Almost every website that requires this seems to have differing criteria, alpha only, alpha/numeric, numeric only, case sensitive, and oh-by-the-way, that user name is taken, try "Paul1239868976218" as that seems to be free.  Then, that password is not long enough, to long, needs to be preceded/followed/contain at least one/two/three alpha characters, needs to be preceded/followed/contain at least one/two/three numeric characters.  By-the-way, that password has been taken, try "3S548k9652dK879.32" as that seems to be free. I have a 327 page notebook with all the usernames and passwords that I need to obtain my bank accounts, insurance policies, brokerage accounts, and my personal favorite, the "free" sites that require registration. The real killer is that if you don’t use/access that account every 30 days, it becomes inactive, and you have to re-register and…….see above. *Although there are some exaggerations in the above post, most of it is true. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think most users prefer to assign their own access criteria. I personally hate it when I have to try to remember a name or number that somebody else gave me. The biggest potential downfall of the internet as a business tool is the log-in / password fiasco.  Almost every website that requires this seems to have differing criteria, alpha only, alpha/numeric, numeric only, case sensitive, and oh-by-the-way, that user name is taken, try "Paul1239868976218" as that seems to be free.  Then, that password is not long enough, to long, needs to be preceded/followed/contain at least one/two/three alpha characters, needs to be preceded/followed/contain at least one/two/three numeric characters.  By-the-way, that password has been taken, try "3S548k9652dK879.32" as that seems to be free. I have a 327 page notebook with all the usernames and passwords that I need to obtain my bank accounts, insurance policies, brokerage accounts, and my personal favorite, the "free" sites that require registration. The real killer is that if you don’t use/access that account every 30 days, it becomes inactive, and you have to re-register and…….see above. *Although there are some exaggerations in the above post, most of it is true.

yes, I’ll agree —   there are password managers where you can store many passwords and recall them with one password but I still use a hidden cheat sheet

Response:

Hi Chig The leading first couple of numbers could designate the company, sub-company or division.  This would allow for 99 company names or divisions. The next four numbers could be a code to determine the first four letters of their last name.  There are many ways to come up with a code where all 26 letters and a space can be denoted with the numbers 1 to 9 and not even use a zero at all. I would suggest that you do not use sequential numbering, but insure gaps between customer numbers.  This helps catch typo’s and prevents people from guessing at customer numbers to place fraudulent orders. If you want to see customer number in place of names on your screen, and know what company or division.  It only makes sense to start with the company as a numeric code.  If you don’t expect more than 9 divisions within the company, simply use 1 through 9 as the leading number, avoid using zero if you can. As I mentioned once before, part of our customer account numbers are generated by the date they became a customer, but the twin date numbers are separated by a single number that represents country and state or territory sales regions. In our case 1 represents USA, 2 Canada, 3 UK and Ireland, 4 Germany and most of Europe, 5 Spain, 6 France including Italy, 7 East Asia, including Japan & Korea, 8 Africa, primarily South Africa and 9 Australia including New Zealand. So a new customer lets say from Denver Colorado who ordered their first order today would be assigned. (USA is 1, Colorado is region 4 within USA 1 and Denver is warehouse 6 within region 4.) 104403617  You can see the 04 03 & 17 which represents the year, month and day.  Also the 1 for USA, the 4 for Colorado and the 6 for Denver. Our customers are commercial wholesalers, so it is very unlikely we will pick up two wholesalers within the same warehouse district on a single day.  But we have made provisions for that also, by changing the DAY from 17 to 47 or up to 97 which allows for the instance of 2 more wholesalers to be added on that same day.  Highly unlikely! Why only 2?  Because if the date was the 27th then 57 would be used for the second customer, so 57 cannot be used to represent the 3rd customer on the 17th. We have a similar system in a different business to track individual customers, such as retail customers.  Country codes are not used either.  We do however use 2 number distributor codes.  For the example, lets assume distributor number 27 brings in 4 new clients today.  The clients would have the following account numbers; 41032177, 42032177, 43032177, 44032177.  This is in a business where it is normally impossible for a distributor to attain more than 5 new clients per day.  And the date they became a client is important to us.  If they reach the 10 year mark as an ongoing client, their number 4 would be changed to the letter D.  Considering the nature of the business, if someone remains a client for 10 years, there is something drastically wrong with what are doing for them.  The account normally closes automatically when the contract is fulfilled. In other businesses, where the date they became a customer is not important, we just use their telephone number as their account number, the area code gives us the region they are in.   For those with no phone or who want to remain unlisted, we just use their postal zip+4 code, we can tell which is which by the number of digits in the account number. There are so many possible ways of coming up with account numbers, it almost boggles the mind! TTUL Gary

Response:

Question:

Hallo everyone, In composing a Porter’s 5-forces analysis about Air France, I came across the following questions that I did not find an answer to so far.

Question:

  Point is, Bush IS going WAY too far and looks very much as if   he’d enjoy the unlimited power of monarchy (without constitutional   limitations).

Bush currently has no constitutional limitations ever since he declared the "State of Emergency" in September.  Whatever "limitations" he acts under are purely voluntary. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection.   I LOVE IT!!! KISSES AND HUGS! I LOVE IT!  I have blessed you.  Many good tings shall soom come your way.

Thanks, Raven. — theoneflasehaddock

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wrote, in alt.slack: Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing… I KNOW…. Dictatorial powers will certainly be a boon to the world… King George II said it himself…things would be so much easier if he was dictator. Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t.   There’s a difference tween being a liberloon and satirical humor.   Point is, Bush IS going WAY too far and looks very much as if   he’d enjoy the unlimited power of monarchy (without constitutional   limitations).   That said, THE CONSERVALOONS ARE PROVIDING ALL THE MATERIAL, you   don’t RILLY spect us to just IGNORE IT do you?

Yes, would you please?  And take that Constitution and the Bill of Rights pinko commie stuff when you go, if you would. That stuff just stands in the way of what Mr. Bush has planned for America. — Dial M: http://www.LisaMcPherson.COM Dial F: http://www.SlatkinFraud.COM/ Dial R: http://www.RaulLopez.ORG/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t. Do you even know my position on issues?  You are anti-radical from both sides of the aisle…Have I demonstrated different? I don’t mind people leveling insults, if those people actually know me, and simply disagree with me…but I cannot tolerate a fool who will attack me for something I didn’t even know I stood for.  I guarantee you, I am not your typical liberal, even if I do stand for many of their platforms…lets compare positions…then maybe you can back-up your slander

You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

First of all, Dipshit…I didn’t quote anything.  Secondly, branding me liberal or "loony" (i.e. intertwined with the numinousness of Luna, the moon…the irrational unconscious, or shadow self) is of no consequence to me.  Being considered unfavorable by someone such as yourself redeems me and lets me know that I’m not like you.  Thank you

No, you silly twit, your response to me has proven quite nicely that YOU ARE VERY MUCH LIKE ME!!!!  Had you responded with kindness, gentleness, love, mercy, and deep understanding, then you would have proven that you’re unlike me.  But your response is the same level of low-grad brain-dead crap that I spew.  Thus, you and I are as one! Indeed, for all I know, you ARE me. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

I love random intejections of meaningless information desgined only in order to boast about one’s intelligence.

Not me, I hate that shit now. I used to love the shit out of it too but once at the factory I set the design to randomly interject meaningful information by accident, and it was boosting my unintelligence until I was too dumb to catch the mistake. Now they don’t let me near the machine because they say the drool is bad on the parts. -Col. Sphinx Drummond TWSR

Response:

I love random intejections of meaningless information desgined only in order to boast about one’s intelligence.  Let’s all put these random (seemingly chaotic instances, which are in fact completely determinable) factoids into little asides.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, Dipshit…I didn’t quote anything.  Secondly, branding me liberal or "loony" (i.e. intertwined with the numinousness of Luna, the moon…the irrational unconscious, or shadow self) is of no consequence to me.  Being considered unfavorable by someone such as yourself redeems me and lets me know that I’m not like you.  Thank you for the compliment. good to get ta know ya!  ;^) http://www.thelema.net/hml/hecate.html You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon.

Response:

Oddly enough, the dribble that the liberloons are spewing out right now sounds a great deal like the dribble that the conservaloons spewed a few years ago, just substitute different buzzwords.

For example…what is this ‘dribble’?  I’m not saying its not out there, but lets hear what some of the charges are against teflon gorgie….Lets hear what some of the ‘Loons" have to say: I’ve heard alot of people call him a special interest laden flunky for corrupt and dangerous giant corporations. I guess thats PRETTY loonie! I’ve heard alot of people claim that he’s an environmental distaster…as he removes protections of vital and scant wildlands, meanwhile the burgeoning population swarms like locusts to destroy it. Gosh..that IS loonie! I’ve heard alot of people claim that he’s a power thirsty, belligerent (means war loving…not specifically violent), secretive and arrogant ‘leader’ (and I would hardly call him that, unless you’d consider the Pied-Piper a leader)… I’ve heard alot of people say that he’s not particularly bright (for a a president of the USoA, that is), or gifted…other than that a scheming, dangerous, morally bankrupt, intellectually antiquated and populous part of society likes to sponsor him with billions and billions of dollars…probably not earned by them…but ~managed~ by them. How loony is that? Its time for the managament to let us, The Public, We the People,  see their accounting sheets….   But where did they go? What lunacy is this?! "Uh…..    it was an accident…and I backed up, and my hand fell on the shredder…and it just…turned on!"   bursts out sobbing…focus in on sad tears on the cheek… the outro music…. It reassures….. Fade…

Response:

First of all, Dipshit…I didn’t quote anything.  Secondly, branding me liberal or "loony" (i.e. intertwined with the numinousness of Luna, the moon…the irrational unconscious, or shadow self) is of no consequence to me.  Being considered unfavorable by someone such as yourself redeems me and lets me know that I’m not like you.  Thank you for the compliment. good to get ta know ya!  ;^) http://www.thelema.net/hml/hecate.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon.

Response:

lol, apparently you don’t like President Tree (Bush)? i dont like him much either, but as the bumper stickers say… "Don’t Mess With Texas!"   lol, texas is great, but bush is to…um….conservative (among other things)? for my taste – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection. — theoneflasehaddock

Response:

in alt.slack: ps…I was agreeing with your post…and then responding to glassnost… People are posting some strange responses today…   Consider the locale.   <G

or the mercury-retrograde. ‘imp’

Response:

Oddly enough, the dribble that the liberloons are spewing out right now sounds a great deal like the dribble that the conservaloons spewed a few years ago, just substitute different buzzwords.

You are on the very doorstep of enlightenment with this comment.   — "Remember, the plural of ‘moron’ is ‘focus group’." — James A. Wolf

Response:

Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month I LOVE IT!!! KISSES AND HUGS! I LOVE IT!  I have blessed you.  Many good tings shall soom come your way.

When he takes Canada, will anybody either notice or care? Canada’s money and political crittering is so close to the United States’ (I hope I don’t anger Canadians with such a slur) that we could adopt eachother easily enough. — Dial M: http://www.LisaMcPherson.COM Dial F: http://www.SlatkinFraud.COM/ Dial R: http://www.RaulLopez.ORG/

Response:

You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon.

Gee, no ‘conservative’ would EVER do that, right? Go bother some gamers.  Or maybe go email C++. — "Remember, the plural of ‘moron’ is ‘focus group’." — James A. Wolf

Response:

ps…I was agreeing with your post…and then responding to glassnost… People are posting some strange responses today…

Response:

(Theoneflasehaddock) wrote, in alt.slack: Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas,   Gawd, I’m glad I’m not the only one that perceives the git   as wanting to be King.

If that were what he really wanted, he would already be there.  Of course, it is far more comforting and far less scary to say that Bush is an idiot or that he is an evil powermonger (or an evil idiot powermonger) than to admit to the truly terrifying possibility: That Dubya very well might be a reasonably intelligent man using the skills he has at hand to defend and improve the USA and that nobody else in his position would likely do much better (although the screwups would be in different directions). It’s SOOOOOO much easier to suck on your woobie and say "he bad man" than admit that the situation might be something that nobody can handle well. Oddly enough, the dribble that the liberloons are spewing out right now sounds a great deal like the dribble that the conservaloons spewed a few years ago, just substitute different buzzwords. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection. — theoneflasehaddock

Response:

(Theoneflasehaddock) considered running, but paused to say: ~Washington – ~Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States ~constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of ~congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and ~Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful ~waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The ~new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has ~been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." ~However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and ~all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection. Oooh, that just rings too true.

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September.

Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing… — What would you do if the people you knew Were the plastic that melted And the chromium too?             – Frank Zappa – dlindner (at) socal (dot) rr (dot) com –

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing…

Yeah!  And after all, it works so well for Castro.  }:-} — Dial M: http://www.LisaMcPherson.COM Dial F: http://www.SlatkinFraud.COM/ Dial R: http://www.RaulLopez.ORG/

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing…

I KNOW…. Dictatorial powers will certainly be a boon to the world… King George II said it himself…things would be so much easier if he was dictator. God Blast the King!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing… I KNOW…. Dictatorial powers will certainly be a boon to the world… King George II said it himself…things would be so much easier if he was dictator.

Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection.

  I LOVE IT!!! KISSES AND HUGS! I LOVE IT!  I have blessed you.  Many good tings shall soom come your way. — http://anneli.com/blackbane IRC : /server anneli.com #witchcraft creator of alt.witchcraft creator of alt.traditional.witchcraft original creator of alt.religion.wicca don’t like my postings, then go to:   alt.religion.wicca.moderated                                           //// /// ‘~ (    —–                                                    // /  // :    ) —–    Raven                                             /  /  /  /)   / —-    BlackBane                                                /   //..\       A Real Witch

Response:

Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t.

Do you even know my position on issues?  You are anti-radical from both sides of the aisle…Have I demonstrated different? I don’t mind people leveling insults, if those people actually know me, and simply disagree with me…but I cannot tolerate a fool who will attack me for something I didn’t even know I stood for.  I guarantee you, I am not your typical liberal, even if I do stand for many of their platforms…lets compare positions…then maybe you can back-up your slander.

Response:

Question:

> That’s probably where we differ most.  I think I deserve a measure of > ill health by virtue of 35 years of smoking & drinking & partying to > excess, eating junk food, not exercising, not drinking 8 glasses of > water/day, etc.

Dear G-d Chris.  Regardless of what you have/havent done you certainly dont deserve any disease.  Let alone MS of all things.  It sounds as if you have a meaure of guilt and that MS is your payback.  I couldnt disagree more.  If thats what you are saying.  I could be reading it wrong, or have the wrong impression of what you have written. I knew all those things were not condusive to > maintaining health – I made a conscious decision to do them anyway. > Given my beliefs on the importance of healthy lifestyle,  I have to > take some responsiblity for any illnesses that I have or might > develop.

Does a morbidly obese person "deserve" the heart attack that kills them?  I hardly think so.  Does someone who is addicted to the most addictive drug on planet earth, deserve lung cancer?  No chance in hell.  But, as I mentioned to Michael, "deserve" is a really hard word to use because it implies some sort of non existant Karma thingy handing out rewards and punishments.  There is this 90+ year old guy in my grand-mother in-laws nursing home.  He is perfectly healthy.  Healthier than us.  He smokes, drinks, his mind works perfectly, and he is the biggest fricken dick-head I have ever met in my life.  His brain works better than most of ours and he is simply a jerk to beat all jerks.  even jerkier than me.  ;^)  No one can stand this guy.  His family got rid of him cause nobody can stand to be around him.  Hes even worse than ME!  ;^)  And, he has been that way his ENTIRE life.  I wish "deserve" WAS the right word, because if this guy got what he "deserves" I would hate to be around when it happened.  And the worst thing of all is… his mind is absolutely perfect.  He is just the biggest ass on planet earth. Always has been. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many > communities, a > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I > believe > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who > fit the > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, > that > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special > favours all > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast > majority of > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had > in my > life, even at my most destitute." > Then I hafta’ ask why you say that you deserve treatment equal to that > received by any other human being?  Would you really want it? > Everyone in this group  has already had and will continue to receive > much better treatment than most humans – *equal* treatment would > require that we no longer have access to decent medical care, or even > adequate food & shelter. > I’m not trying to change your mind, Michael.  Your feelings & beliefs > are as valid as mine.  I just think that if this is to be an effective > support group, it’s important that options for approaching life with > MS are explored. > Thanks very much for responding in such a thoughtful – and peaceful – > manner. > Chris F

You made some really good points. Rob

Response:

> Some examples: >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the boss’s > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job.

I think deserve is the wrong word.  I think the guy who owns a business has the right, and he deserves the right, to hire anyone he likes, especially when it comes to hiring his own son for a business he owns.  Now, if you are talking about some manager at a K-Mart, then yes, you deserve equal consideration.  I think semantics is going to play a large part in this discussion.  Im not so sure "deserve" is the right word. >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, I > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted to > a millionaire.

Exactly! >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as anyone > else.

In that,,, I dont think so.  In the above, everything you "deserve" obligates others to provide things to you, that belong to "them", and not to you.  In a compasionate society, that is easily the most prosperous this world has ever seen, I do think its reasonable to "provide" the things that constitute a society worth admiring, or at least worth living in.  I dont feel we "deserve" things that obligates others to give us things that belong to them.  But through the system of taxation, some redistribution of wealth is the ultimate aim.  And I cant believe I am about to say this, but, I agree.  You, nor I, dont deserve anything… but its nice that our law makers have at least made a half-hearted attempt at providing at least some modicum of equality and care. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment.

Semantics aside, I agree completely.  We deserve what we are willing to provide to others. > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > life, even at my most destitute. > — > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>>

"WE" even being in such a shitty situation, do receive far more than we would get in other societies.  Its a tough, but good question to have asked. JMHO Rob

Response:

Joan wrote: I wrote:

"Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to thinking. deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment" Joan replied: "These librarians. <sigh> Chris, you will have to go to Gaylan’s room. You can talk dictionaries together. " Whoa there. Are you trying to tell me that *everyone* doesn’t keep their Websters on a chain attached to their wrist? No – it *can’t* be true… Chris F  :-)

Response:

My OWN belief???? Deserve is just not a working part of my vocabulary. Nor is fair….. Nor expectations. I DO believe in acceptance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With much love, Dorkey Pottybreath

Response:

Carole; >QOL isn’t always what we make of it…outside forces often impact our efforts >& >views of QOL.

Well said.  Many things are beyond our control. I hope you have an easier time of it soon. Sylvia

Response:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:00:12 -0400, "Gaylan" <gay…@attcanada.net> wrote: }At one of our holiday dinners, a question came up that created some }discussion.  After a bit, I entered the fray shifting the emphasis to }philosophy and then sat back and listened to an entirely different exchange }of opinion.  Just my way of having fun.

You’re bad, Gaylan, but cute. <smirkink> — Joan

Response:

On 16 Jan 2002 12:23:12 -0800, cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) wrote: }Whoa there. Are you trying to tell me that *everyone* doesn’t keep }their Websters on a chain attached to their wrist?

Mine is attached to a chain around my waist. My wrists are too sore. I *love* dictionaries, and words……. Kool. — Joan

Response:

"Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > thinking. > deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > Question: > What *do* you deserve from life?

"Deserve" is simply the wrong word.  Nobody deserves anything.  We arent born with an inherant, built in, pre-existing condition that obligates what ever it is, that we supposedly feel we "deserve" things from.  Who would it be that is obligated to fullfill these things that we deserve?  There is nobody to fullfill these obligations… other than from the rest of mankind. Refer to the Declaration of Independance, and the Bill of Rights to see what "WE" are obligated to provide to "OTHERS".  What we are obligated to do, respect, etc., is what we deserve.  And through our fullfillment of "OUR" obligations as set forth in the above mentioned documents, "OTHERS" aquire what they deserve, and through their obligation to live up to those laws… we recieve what "WE" deserve.  Clear as mud eh? > Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > Now explain why you deserve those things.

Well, America was the first nation to institute an overall policy of simple respect for fellow man.  While it took a while, and still needs improving, essentially it is this… Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of happiness,  our "inalienable rights".  Yada yada.  We deserve what we willingly provide to others.  Nothing more, nothing less.   What have you done/not done > that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Chris F

If you have to do something, to get what you "deserve", as we are talking in this context,  nobody would deserve anything, ever.  "Life" isn’t a system of circus tricks where you need to perform, in order to get your treats. What we deserve is exactly what we are willing to provide to another. Nothing more, nothing less. So do we deserve MS?  of course not.  Do we deserve the medicines we use, the SSDI some people are on, our doctors, neurologists, this forum, noooo, but we are better at providing what is right, correct, and moral, than we are at providing what we deserve.  I just think that is just the wrong word. Of course nobody deserves any of the unimaginable bad things in life. (outside of crime and junk) and nobody deserves any of the good things… unless we are willing to provide them to others as well. JMHO Rob

Response:

So is he Rob..or Stef or ???  Man oh man your getting loonier by the second bud… — Laura aka Mona aka Boopsie Barfbrain, Wife of Poopsie Sr. Mom to  Poopsie, Jr. and Lumpy Queen of the Mercury Amalgam Aspartame Multiple Sclerosis Society "Stef Duncan" <robandstef2…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:Lam38.4300$Fh4.353917@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > > Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > > thinking. > > deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > > Question: > > What *do* you deserve from life? > "Deserve" is simply the wrong word.  Nobody deserves anything.  We arent > born with an inherant, built in, pre-existing condition that obligates what > ever it is, that we supposedly feel we "deserve" things from.  Who would it > be that is obligated to fullfill these things that we deserve?  There is > nobody to fullfill these obligations… other than from the rest of mankind. > Refer to the Declaration of Independance, and the Bill of Rights to see what > "WE" are obligated to provide to "OTHERS".  What we are obligated to do, > respect, etc., is what we deserve.  And through our fullfillment of "OUR" > obligations as set forth in the above mentioned documents, "OTHERS" aquire > what they deserve, and through their obligation to live up to those laws… > we recieve what "WE" deserve.  Clear as mud eh? > > Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > > type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > > Now explain why you deserve those things. > Well, America was the first nation to institute an overall policy of simple > respect for fellow man.  While it took a while, and still needs improving, > essentially it is this… Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of happiness, our > "inalienable rights".  Yada yada.  We deserve what we willingly provide to > others.  Nothing more, nothing less. >   What have you done/not done > > that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > > Chris F > If you have to do something, to get what you "deserve", as we are talking in > this context,  nobody would deserve anything, ever.  "Life" isn’t a system > of circus tricks where you need to perform, in order to get your treats. > What we deserve is exactly what we are willing to provide to another. > Nothing more, nothing less. > So do we deserve MS?  of course not.  Do we deserve the medicines we use, > the SSDI some people are on, our doctors, neurologists, this forum, noooo, > but we are better at providing what is right, correct, and moral, than we > are at providing what we deserve.  I just think that is just the wrong word. > Of course nobody deserves any of the unimaginable bad things in life. > (outside of crime and junk) and nobody deserves any of the good things… > unless we are willing to provide them to others as well. > JMHO > Rob

Response:

I suppose that’s possible, Gaylan… but if so, it seems to me that my mom and I likely had different triggers setting it off. If the triggers are many, widely varied, and unknown… it’s less a lifestyle disease than just a bad day at the races, IMO. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice. "Gaylan" <gay…@attcanada.net> wrote in message

news:g%j18.236$EI.1421@tor-nn1.netcom.ca… | Michael, | | It’s that "trigger" that puzzles us all. | Maybe we did ****do something.  :) | Maybe it’s a "lifestyle" disease, like some cancers. | | Gaylan | | | | "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message

| news:a231r5$u4rrq$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… | > | > trigger to get the ball rolling.  Who *knows* what that might have been. | > | > My point?   It’s simple chance, IMO.   I *don’t* deserve it anymore than I | | |

Response:

Not dictionaries, not words, not librarians. Tis philosophy. At one of our holiday dinners, a question came up that created some discussion.  After a bit, I entered the fray shifting the emphasis to philosophy and then sat back and listened to an entirely different exchange of opinion.  Just my way of having fun. Gaylan "Joan Carter" <jecar…@gmx.net> wrote in message

news:rat94u412uhlkioc6rnoeg6igtjm4cj72f@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 15 Jan 2002 11:51:30 -0800, cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) > wrote: > }Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > }thinking. > } > }deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > These librarians. <sigh> Chris, you will have to go to Gaylan’s room. > You can talk dictionaries together. > — > Joan

Response:

That’s simple….. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" Chrys, the Constitutionalist

Response:

Michael, It’s that "trigger" that puzzles us all. Maybe we did ****do something.  :) Maybe it’s a "lifestyle" disease, like some cancers. Gaylan "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message

news:a231r5$u4rrq$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> trigger to get the ball rolling.  Who *knows* what that might have been. > My point?   It’s simple chance, IMO.   I *don’t* deserve it anymore than I

Response:

I hear what you say, and I’m sorry for your situation. My friend worked for many years and made provision for security in the event that she became ill, while she was still completely healthy, to ensure her financial security. Ok, suppose it depends on what country you live in and the welfare state support that’s available. Here in Britain it’s pretty good, not least the free to all national health services.  I’m sure elsewhere like in the US /Canada you also get the insurance sellers touting critical illness & other protective  policies ? Granted it cost her heavily at the time, and many people told her it was a waste, but now she’s secure. Roarke "Carole Ford" <cf…@ftconnect.com> wrote in message

news:3C44B253.35D8C8A8@ftconnect.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Roarke wrote: > > At least we’re alive and have a reasonably normal life expectancy. Quality > > of life is what you make of it.  Slowing down and finding the value in > > things you overlooked before is a benefit. > > Roarke > I’m unable to work due to the balance problems, my disability has been cut off > because the insurer says I can work as a janitor, I’m going thru the stress of > appealing the denial, and living on meager savings. What happens to my quality > of life if I don’t win the appeal, if I run out of money, & can’t find a job? > I’m not up to making a quality of life transition into living in my car at my > age. If I slow down & live in my car, I can discover the benfit of having seats > that recline. That is finding a benefit but not one I want to experience on a > nightly basis. > QOL isn’t always what we make of it…outside forces often impact our efforts & > views of QOL. > Carole > > "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message > > news:a223pp$topkj$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… > > > "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > > > | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > > > | thinking. > > > | > > > | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > > > | > > > | Question: > > > | > > > | What *do* you deserve from life? > > > That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an > > equal > > > chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. > > > Some examples: > > >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the > > boss’s > > > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job. > > >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, > > I > > > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted > > to > > > a millionaire. > > >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > > > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as > > anyone > > > else. > > > Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > > > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > > > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > > > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > > > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > > > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > > > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > > > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > > > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > > > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > > > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > > > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > > > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, > > a > > > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I > > believe > > > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit > > the > > > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > > > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > > > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours > > all > > > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority > > of > > > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > > > life, even at my most destitute. > > > — > > > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > > > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Thank you, Jil.   That encapsulates most of what I put into so damned many words earlier. This disease is a thing of chance, and "deserving" doesn’t enter into the picture.  Many other things in life are a matter of the presence or absence of human justice… and only they are the things to which the idea of "deserving"  (or "not deserving", as the case may be,) can be applied. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice. "Jils" <j…@optushome.com.au> wrote in message

news:3c452b30$0$24139$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au… | the way i see it, "deserving" implies there’s someone or | something somewhere dishing out stuff that’s deserved or | otherwise. i don’t believe in deserving. or fate. i just believe | that stuff happens. the stuff that happens may be the result of | environment or genetics or both but it sure has nothing to do | with deserving. | | everyone’s entitled to my opinion. | | | "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message | news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to | thinking. | | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment | | Question: | | What *do* you deserve from life? | | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work? | What | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? | | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not | done | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? | | Chris F | |

Response:

the way i see it, "deserving" implies there’s someone or something somewhere dishing out stuff that’s deserved or otherwise. i don’t believe in deserving. or fate. i just believe that stuff happens. the stuff that happens may be the result of environment or genetics or both but it sure has nothing to do with deserving. everyone’s entitled to my opinion. "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to thinking. deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment Question: What *do* you deserve from life? Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work? What type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? Chris F

Response:

On 15 Jan 2002 11:51:30 -0800, cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) wrote: }Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to }thinking. } }deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment

These librarians. <sigh> Chris, you will have to go to Gaylan’s room. You can talk dictionaries together. — Joan

Response:

"Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151942.59948af4@posting.google.com… | Michael wrote:

| " Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, | at | least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to | make me | "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health." | | That’s probably where we differ most.  I think I deserve a measure of | ill health by virtue of 35 years of smoking & drinking & partying to | excess, eating junk food, not exercising, not drinking 8 glasses of | water/day, etc.  I knew all those things were not condusive to | maintaining health – I made a conscious decision to do them anyway. | Given my beliefs on the importance of healthy lifestyle,  I have to | take some responsiblity for any illnesses that I have or might | develop. That’s not the same as saying you deserve MS, though. Truth… I’ve spent far less time than you have (or at least not as many years) doing all of the above, but 20 years plus of hardcore smoking surely must have taken something out of me, *lots* of cannabis, varying quantities of opium, mushrooms, MDA, LSD, DMT, assorted amphetamines, peyote, barbiturates, tranquilizers, PCP, and especially alcohol through most of my teen years surely can’t have done me any physical good.  A short stint as a heavily addicted beer drinker (3 dozen a day for a few months,) taught me how *incredibly* harsh that stuff is on your body. You’d think that with all the chemical self-alteration I’ve done, I’d be sure to take some of the responsibility for a CNS disease, woudn’t you? But if that disease were MS, you’d be wrong.   My mom has MS too… and though she was a smoker most of her life, she seldom smoked heavily, was always very fit and a healthy eater, was not a drinker of my caliber by a long stretch, and abstained from all other unprescribed drugs until *after* she found herself with MS at age 33.  My dx was at 35. It had absolutely nothing to do with my lifestyle, of that I’m almost certain.   It may or may not have been something environmental that mom and I had in common, but if so I’d imagine my little brother (only 15 months younger) to be caught by the same thing.  No, I’m pretty sure it’s largely genetic in my case, and maybe it was under way very early on and escaped notice until it did something big… or maybe it just needed the right trigger to get the ball rolling.  Who *knows* what that might have been. My point?   It’s simple chance, IMO.   I *don’t* deserve it anymore than I deserve to be hit by a falling LEO satellite… which isn’t the same as saying I shouldn’t accept it.   Just means shit happens… sometimes it’s bad shit.  <shrug> >| Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, >| that would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special >| favours all my life, simply by living where and when I have been. >| The vast majority of humanity is poorer and has less opportunity >| – by far – than I’ve had in my life, even at my most destitute."

| | Then I hafta’ ask why you say that you deserve treatment equal to that | received by any other human being?  Would you really want it? Of course not.   I said I’m human, didn’t I?  That implies that I can be selfish, and can desire and pursue all sorts of things beyond merely what I deserve.   The fact that I wish for them doesn’t amount to entitlement though.   In a just world, I’d be entitled to an equal chance… the rest is up to me. | Everyone in this group  has already had and will continue to receive | much better treatment than most humans – *equal* treatment would | require that we no longer have access to decent medical care, or even | adequate food & shelter. Actually, that’s not necessarily true.  It would unquestionably mean that many would have to settle for less than they have now… but a reordering of priorities could see substantial improvement for the vast bulk of humanity without the richest having to sacrifice everything. Ahem… think of the trillions (yes, trillions) of dollars and the many tens of millions of man-hours spent worldwide every single year on development, testing and deployment of armaments.  Think of the lands and waters irrevocably laid waste in the doing.   Now turn those minds, monies and natural resources to the task of feeding, housing, clothing and maintaining the health of the world’s people.   OK.. never mind all of it… how about simply attending to all their most vital health needs? It’s a disaster scenario, of course… the planet’s ability to sustain us all would be outstripped by our population growth in no time flat… but it’s possible to do exactly as I just outlined – just as many other changes are possible – if the world’s economic and political leaders wanted things to be different and worked to make them so. Anyway… I’m way off track here.   My point:  what we most deserve as members of our species… human justice… is not always synonymous with what we might want as individuals.  Still, if we all started off with what we – as human beings – deserve from the get-go, none of us would have much but our own deeds and attitudes and the workings of chance to complain about. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Michael wrote:

" Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health." That’s probably where we differ most.  I think I deserve a measure of ill health by virtue of 35 years of smoking & drinking & partying to excess, eating junk food, not exercising, not drinking 8 glasses of water/day, etc.  I knew all those things were not condusive to maintaining health – I made a conscious decision to do them anyway. Given my beliefs on the importance of healthy lifestyle,  I have to take some responsiblity for any illnesses that I have or might develop. "Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my life, even at my most destitute." Then I hafta’ ask why you say that you deserve treatment equal to that received by any other human being?  Would you really want it? Everyone in this group  has already had and will continue to receive much better treatment than most humans – *equal* treatment would require that we no longer have access to decent medical care, or even adequate food & shelter. I’m not trying to change your mind, Michael.  Your feelings & beliefs are as valid as mine.  I just think that if this is to be an effective support group, it’s important that options for approaching life with MS are explored. Thanks very much for responding in such a thoughtful – and peaceful – manner. Chris F

Response:

Hi Chris! >What *do* you deserve from life?

I would have to say an equal opportunity to work towards what I want in my life.  I deserve no more and no less than everyone else has.  Of course, in the real world, this is not going to be the case.  If I were born in a third world country, I wouldn’t get what I took for granted when I was a kid.  If I were born to a rich family, I would have many things that I hadn’t earned.   >Where do you deserve to live?

Wherever I can afford to live.  Simple as that sounds, in my experience, it’s not.  We still have housing discrimination based on race, nationallity, age, and anything else you can think of.  I went to look at an apartment once, and it was quite obvious the landlord wanted to rent to older people (I was 30 then.) >Where do you deserve to work?

Where ever I’m qualified to work.  Again, we still have discrimination  in this area.  I once didn’t get a job, and I knew I wouldn’t get it as soon as the interviewer told me the company was the largest African-American accounting firm in the city.  Because I well know of how much discrimation blacks have faced in the work place, I didn’t get angry.  I reasoned that job would go to someone who wouldn’t get a job somewhere else, but I could. >What >type of person do you deserve as your life-partner?

This is harder to answer!  This is a matter of personal preference by both parties.  I learned when I was in grade school that you couldn’t make somebody like you, as much as you thought they were "perfect" for you. >Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done >that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards?

Someone else already said it; I deserve these things simply because I’m a member of the human race.  And I have not committed any crimes that would make someone hesitate to hire me, rent to me, or date me. Sylvia

Response:

Roarke wrote: > At least we’re alive and have a reasonably normal life expectancy.  Quality > of life is what you make of it.  Slowing down and finding the value in > things you overlooked before is a benefit. > Roarke

I’m unable to work due to the balance problems, my disability has been cut off because the insurer says I can work as a janitor, I’m going thru the stress of appealing the denial, and living on meager savings. What happens to my quality of life if I don’t win the appeal, if I run out of money, & can’t find a job? I’m not up to making a quality of life transition into living in my car at my age. If I slow down & live in my car, I can discover the benfit of having seats that recline. That is finding a benefit but not one I want to experience on a nightly basis. QOL isn’t always what we make of it…outside forces often impact our efforts & views of QOL. Carole – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message > news:a223pp$topkj$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… > > "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > > | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > > | thinking. > > | > > | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > > | > > | Question: > > | > > | What *do* you deserve from life? > > That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an > equal > > chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. > > Some examples: > >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the > boss’s > > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job. > >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, > I > > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted > to > > a millionaire. > >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as > anyone > > else. > > Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, > a > > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I > believe > > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit > the > > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours > all > > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority > of > > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > > life, even at my most destitute. > > — > > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

At least we’re alive and have a reasonably normal life expectancy.  Quality of life is what you make of it.  Slowing down and finding the value in things you overlooked before is a benefit. Roarke "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message

news:a223pp$topkj$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > | thinking. > | > | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > | > | Question: > | > | What *do* you deserve from life? > That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an equal > chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. > Some examples: >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the boss’s > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job. >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, I > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted to > a millionaire. >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as anyone > else. > Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > life, even at my most destitute. > — > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

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Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to thinking. deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment Question: What *do* you deserve from life?   Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? Chris F

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Chris The answer is 42 + C. Jack "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > thinking. > deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > Question: > What *do* you deserve from life? > Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Chris F

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"Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to | thinking. | | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment | | Question: | | What *do* you deserve from life? That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an equal chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. Some examples:     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the boss’s favourite kid who’s also applied for that job.     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, I deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted to a millionaire.     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as anyone else. Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my life, even at my most destitute. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

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Question:

Hollywood Reporter East, May 23, 2001

Question:

From the "Things To Keep You Up At Night" file:

[SNIP] Reminds me of "Drug Raid At 4am" by Lard. "Sorry! Wrong house!" — "Frosty the Snowman Was peeing against the wind In a ravenstorm" – ‘Immortal Haiku’ by Annatar Gorthaur. *** UNDER THE BANNER OF FNOOGLE WE RIDE! ***

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From the "Things To Keep You Up At Night" file: [And by the way, if you think this shit only happens to various brown people, you're wrong.  Thankfully, no one I love has DIED because of the drug wars, but several have been in jail or have lost several thousands of dollars of confiscated property because of it.  Welcome to America!] (From the LA Times…) INVASION OF SWAT TEAMS LEAVES TRAUMA AND DEATH Alberto Sepulveda is no Elian Gonzalez. When 11-year-old Sepulveda was shot and killed last week by a SWAT team member during an early morning drug raid on his parents’ Modesto home, the story barely made the papers. Yet, as did the Immigration and Naturalization Service raid on the Gonzalez home in Miami in May, the killing of Alberto Sepulveda highlights a troubling trend in law enforcement: stealth raids on the homes of sleeping citizens by heavily armed government agents. Such raids are the hallmark of police states, not free societies, but as a growing number of Americans can attest, the experiences of these two boys are by no means isolated incidents. Just ask the widow of Mario Paz. She was asleep with her husband in their Compton home at 11 p.m. in August 1999 when 20 members of the local SWAT team shot the locks off the front and back doors and stormed inside. Moments later, Mario Paz was dead, shot twice in the back, and his wife was outside, half-naked in handcuffs. The SWAT team had a warrant to search a neighbor’s house for drugs, but Mario Paz was not listed on it. No drugs were found, and no member of the family was charged with any crime. And then there is Denver resident Ismael Mena, a 45-year-old father of nine, killed last September in his bedroom by SWAT team members who stormed the wrong house. Or Ramon Gallardo of Dinuba, Calif., shot 15 times in 1997 by a SWAT team with a warrant for his son. Or the Rev. Accelyne Williams of Boston, 75, who died of a heart attack in 1994 after a Boston SWAT team executing a drug warrant burst into the wrong apartment. SWAT teams, now numbering an estimated 30,000 nationwide, were originally intended for use in emergency situations, hostage-takings, bomb threats and the like. Trained for combat, their arsenals (often provided cut rate or free of charge by the Pentagon) resemble those of small armies: automatic weapons, armored personnel carriers and even grenade launchers. Today, however, SWAT units are most commonly used to execute drug warrants, frequently of the "no-knock" variety, which are issued by judges and magistrates when there is reason to suspect that the 4th Amendment’s "knock and announce" requirement, already perfunctorily applied, would be dangerous or futile, or would give residents time to destroy incriminating evidence. California is one of few states that does not allow no-knock warrants. But the fate of Alberto Sepulveda–who was shot dead an estimated 60 seconds after the SWAT team "knocked and announced"–suggests the problem is not the type of warrant issued but the use of military tactics. The state’s interest in protecting evidence of drug crimes from destruction, or even in preventing the escape of suspected drug felons, does not justify the threat to individual safety, security and peace of mind that the use of these tactics represents. On this, the now-famous image of a terrified Elian facing an armed INS agent speaks volumes. Even when no shot is fired, these raids leave in their wake families traumatized by memories of an armed invasion by government agents. Police officers, too, are shot in these raids, barging unannounced into homes where weapons are kept. These shootings may appear to confirm the dangerousness of the criminals being pursued, until one realizes that they are committed when people are caught by surprise by intruders in their own homes and not unreasonably, if unfortunately, grab a weapon to defend themselves. (Suspects also die in these shoo touts. Troy Davis, 25, was shot point blank in the chest by Texas police who broke down his door during a no-knock raid in December 1999 and found him with a gun in his hand. Police had been pursuing a tip that Davis and his mother were growing marijuana. His gun was legal.) Using paramilitary units to enforce drug warrants is the inevitable result of the government’s tendency to see itself as fighting a "war on drugs." This rhetoric makes it easy to forget that the targets in these raids are not the enemy but fellow citizens, and that the laws being enforced are supposed to ensure a safe, peaceful, well-ordered society. If lawmakers in Washington and Sacramento are genuinely committed to defending the right of the American people to be safe and secure in their own homes, they would demand an accounting for the thousands of drug raids executed by SWAT teams every year all over the country, raids that get little media attention but nonetheless leave their targets traumatized and violated. Assuming, that is, that they leave them alive. Sharon Dolovich Before you buy.

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Question:

Does anyone have any experience with a business software package called UA Accounting? Why / why dont you like it? Any problems with support? Thanks in advance for your replies…

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Does anyone have any experience with a business software package called UA Accounting? Why / why dont you like it? Any problems with support?

If you don’t get any other replies you may wish to search at www.deja.com.  Ensure that you go into Power Search and select full archive instead of the default recent archive. Tony —- Message posted to newsgroup and, if appropriate, emailed. Tony Toews, Independent Computer Consultant Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm VolStar http://www.volstar.com Manage hundreds or    thousands of volunteers for special events.

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Question:

between moments of lucidity.  However, Randi’s refusal to sign Benneth’s application form before (and if) they go to bat could be construed as a dodge. I don’t know what a lawyer would say. Well, I do. The Challenge is a unilateral contract. It’s kind of an unusual insrument, if you can call it that. I call it b’llsh’t. Anyway, there’s no clear legal recourse until he signs it as far as I can see, and it really takes an expert on unilaterals to tell us what it is, and even then, what kind of an agreement is it really? And what’s it’s jurisdiction? All I have

Are you saying that you’ve sought legal counsel (or done your own research) and have been told or learned that there’s no legal guarantee that if you win the preliminary according to the mutually agreed upon protocol that Alain and Randi are working on — including the homeopathic pharmacist and trusty NIST biochemist, the cameras, the accounting firm, et al. — that Randi will be legally bound to negotiate a final trial with you?  This is the exact opposite of what Mona, a lawyer, is insisting to be the case. from Randi are about five or six dozen e-mails from the man either to me or about me, and all derogatory or threats to humiliate me. In one he types to me an angry sounding letter in ALL CAPS and  commands me to F*CK OFF. Now why does he have to act so hostile if he’s got a valid offer?      And here’s more questions:

I’ve been tempted to type those words to you myself, and I’ve only been on the receiving end of a fraction of the venom you’ve directed at Randi.       NAME ONE APPLICANT HE’S EVER TESTED.

Why should it really matter as far as *your* case is concerned?  I do have the name and ph. number of the homeopath (or his secretary; I can’t remember) he tested, BTW — I got it from Randi — and when I offered to share it with you a few months ago, you basically said "who cares?"       WHO AT GOLDMAN SACHS WILL VERIFY THE AWARD?

Have you actually phoned or faxed the GS numbers given on the application form you signed?       WHY CAN’T WE SEE THE RECORDS OF PREVIOUS TRIALS IF THERE ARE ANY?

That would be highly desirable, but why should it prevent you from pursuing your shot at the Challenge?       WHY WON’T RANDI SIGN HIS OWN CHALLENGE?

I’d also like to know; but it would seem his signature isn’t required on this "unilateral contract" for it to be enforceable.      If all the answers to these questions is so easy, then why is he hiding them?

I don’t know why he’s hiding "most* of them (where’s the secrecy about Goldman Sachs, for instance?), but again, if you’re legally protected and can agree on a protocol that gives you a fair chance to prove your ability, what’s the problem? Why let these details deter you from moving in for the kill?       SYd, I’ve been screaming about this for over half a year now. After a while it’s gets to be funny and I actually start feeling sorry for him.  So what’s left to do but clown around until he wakes up from the smell of his reputation in flames? Really, if he wants me to act sensibly, then he could start the ball rolling by simply typing a few names so we could check this out. ANd why is he Maybe if he thinks I’m a crazy fool it will give him the needed confidence and schedule a test of my claims. But of course, that would mean he’d have to sign the paper, wouldn’t it? And he won’t do tthat, will he? He’s never done it before, and he’ll never do it ever.       But maybe you can work on him to endorse my proposal to open testing       up to the schools using my oat test and the Jones/Jenkins Yeast test. http://www.marius.net/yeast.html

He is so gonna like that idea, don’t ya know! At this point I’ve given up any hope of getting my million bucks from his cheap carney act inthe way he’s suggested it can’t be done, so what do I have to lose by revealing my methods? Let a bunch of little school kids validate my claims. What could be better? Besides, I got other ways of doing this he hasn’t even dreamed of yet.      WHERE"S MY MILLION RANDI? I GOT YOUR PROOF BOTH LIVING AND MECHANICAL, RIGHT HERE.  . . . COME AND GET IT!

I can hear his little footsteps galloping your way this very minute. Syd            http://www.escape.ca/~sgb                      Dealing with Depression Naturally                               and other books by Syd Baumel.                                      …and cool record reviews!

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What do you mean, erf? You have to sign away your right to sue when you apply, don’t you?

It’s hd, erf is jus’ a ‘lil noise.  This have been debated to death.  The clause in the challenge dealing with lawsuits wouldn’t prevent someone from suing to collect the prize if they won.  Plus substantial damages. ruf

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Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. Good advice Doggie, you should follow it!!! The point is that Randi makes you sign a contract so you CANNOT sue him. Understand now? The person has no recourse if Randi refuses to pay. He must not be too sure of his challenge if he has to resort to such tactics.

A lawyer, we already checked out her credentials, who works in this field, has opined that the clause in Randi’s contract wouldn’t prevent someone who won the challenge from suing for their money.  It isn’t the purpose of the clause.  And if you’d followed idiots like Riley G., you’d see why it’s necessary. arf

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up?

Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. erf

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So describe the experiments.   — John Walkup

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up? Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. erf

What do you mean, erf? You have to sign away your right to sue when you apply, don’t you? kb

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up? Sue him.  You really like to ask stupid questions Herbie.  Try thinking before you type. erf

Good advice Doggie, you should follow it!!! The point is that Randi makes you sign a contract so you CANNOT sue him. Understand now? The person has no recourse if Randi refuses to pay. He must not be too sure of his challenge if he has to resort to such tactics.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very, very well put.  I wish the skeptical community would openly ponder the possibility that the Emperor has been wearing too many clothes. Your recommendations for tightening the screws on the ‘Randi Challenge’ thing are valuable. The Challenge is an important signal tower for those skeptics who prefer not to investigate the paranormal for themselves. Most believe that until someone wins the million, the evidence supporting PSI amounts to precicely zero and there is no need to read and take seriously published articles or books, no matter how well recieved these are by the more critical scientific establishment. Randi therefore has a lot of power, and as long as he is able to dodge promising applicants evidence obtained by serious researchers will not readily reach it’s audience. I have no direct evidence that Randi has ever tried to dodge promising applicants, other than putting Benneth on hold for no good reason for three months.

Make that seven months, Syd . . . he’s been doing the Zwinge waltz since last January . . . Ironically, now it’s Randi who has been nose-to- the-grindstone since ~July 31 in trying to negotiate a trial for Benneth (not *with* Benneth, and I can’t say that I blame him), but Benneth has been playing (or being) the clown, fool, crazed Prince of Denmark … between moments of lucidity.  However, Randi’s refusal to sign Benneth’s application form before (and if) they go to bat could be construed as a dodge. I don’t know what a lawyer would say.

Well, I do. The Challenge is a unilateral contract. It’s kind of an unusual insrument, if you can call it that. I call it b’llsh’t. Anyway, there’s no clear legal recourse until he signs it as far as I can see, and it really takes an expert on unilaterals to tell us what it is, and even then, what kind of an agreement is it really? And what’s it’s jurisdiction? All I have from Randi are about five or six dozen e-mails from the man either to me or about me, and all derogatory or threats to humiliate me. In one he types to me an angry sounding letter in ALL CAPS and  commands me to F*CK OFF. Now why does he have to act so hostile if he’s got a valid offer?      And here’s more questions:       NAME ONE APPLICANT HE’S EVER TESTED.       WHO AT GOLDMAN SACHS WILL VERIFY THE AWARD?       WHY CAN’T WE SEE THE RECORDS OF PREVIOUS TRIALS IF THERE ARE ANY?       WHY WON’T RANDI SIGN HIS OWN CHALLENGE?       If all the answers to these questions is so easy, then why is he hiding them?       SYd, I’ve been screaming about this for over half a year now. After a while it’s gets to be funny and I actually start feeling sorry for him.  So what’s left to do but clown around until he wakes up from the smell of his reputation in flames? Really, if he wants me to act sensibly, then he could start the ball rolling by simply typing a few names so we could check this out. ANd why is he Maybe if he thinks I’m a crazy fool it will give him the needed confidence and schedule a test of my claims. But of course, that would mean he’d have to sign the paper, wouldn’t it? And he won’t do tthat, will he? He’s never done it before, and he’ll never do it ever.        But maybe you can work on him to endorse my proposal to open testing up to the schools using my oat test and the Jones/Jenkins Yeast test. http://www.marius.net/yeast.html At this point I’ve given up any hope of getting my million bucks from his cheap carney act inthe way he’s suggested it can’t be done, so what do I have to lose by revealing my methods? Let a bunch of little school kids validate my claims. What could be better? Besides, I got other ways of doing this he hasn’t even dreamed of yet.       WHERE"S MY MILLION RANDI? I GOT YOUR PROOF BOTH LIVING AND MECHANICAL, RIGHT HERE.  . . . COME AND GET IT! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, even the most zealous skeptics agree that at least some small PSI effects have been demonstrated to exist. And still, the million dollars have not been won. This fact alone should be enough to convince skeptics that the Challenge is not as subtle a barometer of PSI activity as they might think. Either Randi revamps his program by exposing the mechanics and dynamics of his application policy and by publishing the details of tests and preliminaries, or he should throw in the towl and declare the program void. That would hopefully send skeptics back to doing what they should, namely informing themselves about the status of psi-research as it stand today, instead of wasting their time standing at attention in Randi’s ranks. Joris van Dorp Syd

Yeah, Joris has written the definitive statement and speaks my sentiments exactly. John Benneth at the World’s greatest website Click here and see why . . . http://www.marius.net/ (Nose to the grindstone, yeah right sure. Most of it is his complaining about all the e-mail he gets about this . . . and by the way, Art Bell told me he does this . . . and Art has invtied him to appear on the program, but you know magic is a vanishing art)

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. Look, Randi, why don’t you take two of the tests we’ve furnished for you, and your people, whoever they are, can do them immediately as your preliminary tests. In fact, why doesn’t everyone who reads this do the test or do something to have it done in their area?.

 What type of test are you talking about? Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense. Peter Moran

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Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense.

And what are these people supposed to do when they prove what they are doing and Randi refuses to pay up?

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. Look, Randi, why don’t you take two of the tests we’ve furnished for you, and your people, whoever they are, can do them immediately as your preliminary tests. In fact, why doesn’t everyone who reads this do the test or do something to have it done in their area?.  What type of test are you talking about?

We’ve come up with a protocol that narrows down the arugment to separating homeopathically potentized solutions form non.     The problem now is to get Randi to agree to a test. To provide further evidence, and because Randi’s refusing to accept the information as confirmation of our cliam, we’re releasing two different but easy methods by which to do what we’re claiming can be done.      One makes use of oat seeds and takes a few days to get results, but the other uses yeast and the results can be seen within 24 hours sing a microscope.       All these people who have mouths bigger than their brains can now see for themselves using objective measures whether it works or not. So now the argument about homeopathy can go from "he said" to "I saw."      Try it and see for yourself if you won’t agree that Randi owes me a million bucks. Also if I was dealing with all the crackpots wanting to take on Randi’s challenge I would as sure as day want to have some protection against being sued if they don’t like the outcome.  It is common sense.

As one of the crackpots, I have to say that getting an outcome as you put it, seems to be impossible to do with Randi. I applied to take the test seven months ago, and now he’s saying he won’t communicate with me. When I’ve sent evidence to him he becomes furious, starts writing me long letters in all caps, and cussing me out. He won’t even sign and return his own challenge. If he’s afreaid of being sued, then why did he make the offer in the first place? If he’s so sure I can’t win, then why doesn’t schedule the trial and get it over with? And so far, we have not seen any reports of previous trials, nor have we been able to find anyone he’s ever tested or have we ever seen a signed copy of his CHallenge for anyone previously. To me, from first hand knowledge, the Psychic Challenge is not a valid offer, nor does it seem to have bever been one, and it makes me wonder how much valid phenomena he’s been suppressing. Most of his communication to us has been hostile.. Perhaps you can tell us where reports of former trials can be found. And how many of these "crackpots" do you know who have tried to sue him? Peter Moran

Thanks for responding to this, Peter. If I can furnish anymore information, let me know. John Benneth http://www.marius.net/proof.html

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             DIRECTLY RELEVANT: Getting on with it  Organization:             Personal   References:             1 My chemist (PhD in analytical chemistry) can do the preparation any weekend in November.  The work will all be done at Mount Saint Mary’s College. Will Benneth be ready by then?                                 Randi

     Well how do you like that?       Will Benneth be ready then? Benneth was ready the day hefiled the application to the Psychic CHallenge, on January 26th, 1999 http://www.marius.net/application.html      After seven months of bickering Randal finally agrees to a test at Mt. St. Mary’s College on some weekend in November. But what college is he talking about? Here we have a puicture of some scientists sitting around a desk at the college you propose. Is this NIST? http://www.msmcollege.com/science_dep.htm Or is this it? http://www.msmary.edu/science/ Maybe  this is it? http://www.msmc.edu/webdex/science/science/home.htm       What are you trying to pull now, Mr. Zwinge?      Seriously, I think we ALL can do better than this. Look, Randi, why don’t you take two of the tests we’ve furnished for you, and your people, whoever they are, can do them immediately as your preliminary tests. In fact, why doesn’t everyone who reads this do the test or do something to have it done in their area?. Maybe everyone could go to the science editor of their local newspaper or the head of the science department at your local college, start there, ask who could pull this off, who would be interested?       Tell them why it’s important. Tell them its to validate or debunk what purposts to be the world’s greatest doctrine of energy medicine ever known. Money and lives are riding on it.      The yeast test is the quickest one to do, but the oat test is the easiest.      Do both yourself, or get one of your people to do it, Randi, and everyone else should be doing the same.     What’s the big deal here? If a dummy, as you call me,  can pull it off, why can’t you, a MacArthur Genius, do it?  You’re the genius here who never finished high school? Is the problem not enough time?      If it’s time, we would have had this done long ago. You would have had the confidence to shoot me down immediately.      Or at least try. But you haven’t done it because you already lost this war long ago. You’ve seen plenty of evidence to prove that what you’re talking about is real, and so all you can do is to hurl ad hominem.      Is it that it isn’t important? I don’t think so. I think it’s real important. Homeopathy is a growth industry. The consumer is demanding that his government use its superior resources to rectify its trade. And it WILL happen, within a few years, homeopathy will be regulated, as it is in France with the bug remedies like the clap (Medorrhinum), because they are not similia, they are idem, and Hahnemann enjoins us against the use of idem for present manifestations of disease. . . .      There’s a lot of people out there who believe that there really is something to homeopathy, and if they’re wrong, they’re being defrauded and this is a grand hoax that should be exposed. But if the opposite is true, then this may be further validation for what appears to a lot of people as being the greatest known medical doctrine to appear in modern times. It already has become, within only 200 years, the second most used doctrine of healing in the world today, second only to Chinese medicine. That’s a lot of people for a high school dropout to characterize as stupid.      So what I suggest we do is start promoting these two tests. I’ll start posting the recipes at my web site at http://www.marius.net      And I’ll hit the newsgroups with this.      This way anyone can have access to the tests and do them for themselves to see if this is a real phenomenon. Skeptics, believers, and agnostics alike can all have the same simple procedure. All the St. Mary’s Colleges all over the world can have the test by simply logging on to http://marius.net . And then if we need to, we’ll start collecting affidavits from people who have done testing and we’ll present these to Goldman Sachs as as the preliminary evidence.      Randi, you can do these experiments for yourself and see the results. I’ll give you  the method and tell you what ingredients you need  to do it with, I’ll consult with your top scientists, although you might want to call on your quantum physicist to render an opinion for you as well about this      And lets bring in some outside testimony for what this is, that is if you’re still not convinced. People like Richard Gerber, M.D., the author of VIBRATIONAL MEDICINE. And Andrew Weil, M.D. Let’s officially bring in a representative from NIST, let’s have invite the APS to run the tests.      Let’s also being in a well known jurist, somebody on the level of a Bork to oversee any formal test. ANd let’s use everyday people to create the double blind, people neither you nor I have anything to do with selecting.      And let’s go before the media with this. We can squeeze this for everything it’s worth. You can hype your book and I can hype mine.      Then instead of everyone having an opinion about what someone else has claimed to have done, they can do for it themselves. Or do you just want to go on arguing and trading barbs like we’ve been doing?  Either way, I’m going to enjoy it. I’ve got more than enough evidence to prove the hypothesis, plenty of published studies, and more than enough method, and I’ve got a whole library worth of ad hominem remarks I can make about Hamilton Zwinge, either way I’m bucked up solid and real confident I can’t lose. So what’s it going to be, Randal? Either way it’s fine, or you can get your little white hanky out and concede now, maybe we can work out a cash settlement. I don’t care, but how is it again I’m supposed to lose? In some dark little classroom at some little ignominious school in England?     If after doing the little experiments I’ve given you and everyone else you all come up with nothing , well,  then by a putative decision we’ll have our results. If they’re negative and people are complaining that this doesn’t work, then we can all consider that the hypothesis was wrong. But if the results are positive, if you’re getting deluged by school children from Mount St. Mary’s College in England who are seeing the same 150% growth over the controls that I recorded in the oat test, if people are replicating the work of Jones and Jenkins with yeast, then maybe that will be a cue that it’s time to schedule a formal trial of your hypothesis, that , how did Mr. Thuro, aka Happy Dog, put it? *The purpose of the challenge is to refute the argument that there is insufficient incentive for promoters of the paranormal, like homeopaths, to prove their assertions.* So as a promoter of what you would deem the paranormal, I have to say that after seven months you have yet to show me the bait. And this upsets me. I took your offer to be made in good faith and I think that when the American public sees what it is that you’ve been pulling, they’re going to feel disenchanted with you, not homeopathy. I think those of us who have applied to your little challenge feel there has been little incentive to take your test. You won’t even sign your own challenge. YOu won’t even give us the name of the person at Goldman Sachs whose supposed to confirm that you even have a prize. That’s not too much to ask for people who are risking reputation and expense to meet the demands of your challenge.      I think when the American public sees what it is you’re doing, they’re going to be upset with people like you and Bob Park, because they take you to be a modern Diogenes, dedicated to the truth, not deception.  Yet that is all your craft speaks for itself, are these perpetual deceptions that serve no one but yourself in the way they aggrandize you. And is it hurting people? Yes, your recalcitrance to look at the facts is indeed hurting people, it’s killing people, because it creating a situation where superior medical treatment is being withheld from them because its been denounced by the likes of you and your ever decreasing gang.       Now we could sit back and let you simply become a footnote in history, but I’m not content with that. I want to see you rectified, but I also want my money . . . and Mr. Zwinge, I’m going to get it. .     Well, do you think we can have grounds for a formal test, perhaps on that weekend in November? Sound fair enough? That should speed things up, don’t you think? If you like, we could schedule next February, or MArch. I don’t care I could move a few appointments around and make time for you and your friends.      I’m not in any special rush. Time money and public interest are all on my side. What have you got? We’ve already seen the rabbit.      So let’s start with your mystery scientist. Let me speak to him on the phone, and he and I can collaborate on how he can see these things for himself.      This weekend.      Is that getting on with it? John Benneth 503-661-4842

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: What I DON’T want to see is BOTH taxes.  (Remember Donna Shalalalala’s : trial balloon in this regard?) In ‘96, Bowser will be crooning: Sha-la-la-la Sha-la-la-la-la ba doo Sha-la-la-la Sha-la-la-la-la ba doo Sha-la-la-la Sha-la-la-la-la ba doo Sha-la-la-la Sha-la-la-la-la dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip num num num num num num *Get* *A* *Job*!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hopefully we will see the end of the income tax was we know it in the next 4-6 years…        Option 1: A National Sale Tax – This would exclude items like        food, clothing, and housing so that the poor and low income        families would pay little in taxes.  The income tax would be        eliminated.  Entitlements would be means tested.  Money in the        underground economy would be brought into the system.        Option 2: A Flat Income Tax – This would include a $10,000        personal exemption so a family of 4 would only pay taxes on        income over $40,000.  Entitlements would be means tested. A sales tax (or a Value Added Tax) does give individuals some semblance of control, and is usually accompanied by the acquisition of a tangible asset, usually enjoyable — they would consider it "the cost of getting something desired."  It is psychologically gentler and thus more moral.  (Especially if food, clothing and housing are not taxed.)

Don’t confuse the sales tax and VAT; they’re not precisely the same thing.  For my part, I’d much prefer that any and every tax we pay should be highly visible, which is one advantage of the sales (and, to a lesser extent, income) tax.  Taxes should, when possible, be itemized on everything we buy; the applicable rate should be posted, in Big Black Numbers, in every business establishment.  People should be painfully aware of the taxes they pay; then, perhaps, fewer people would be so ready to raise them for the Good Cause Du Jour. Hidden taxes — which include the VAT and "franchise fees" — are far too easy for tax-hungry politicians to jack up via a dead-of-the-night voice vote.  That’s their appeal, of course, but that course has led us to the situation where the average Joe doesn’t have a clue as to the real percentage of his income (over 40%!) that’s siphoned off. [...] The last advantage of a NST/VAT is that collecting taxes would be a lot easier to do since most businesses now collect sales tax anyway.   … I would even go as far as allowing businesses to keep 1-3% of the sales taxes they collect to help defray the added costs of collecting them and other government regulations — a way to give each businessman more psychological incentive to collect sales taxes.

I agree, but a "psychological incentive" isn’t the reason why.  There’s a definite cost involved, and if business must be the government’s tax collector, then businesses should be recompensed.  As it stands, tax collection is an unfunded government mandate which adds to overhead and is a definitive drain on profits.  Small businesses, especially, incur very high costs for the collection, accounting, and forwarding of taxes — and are heavily penalized for their mistakes.        "There… I’ve run rings ’round you logically."            – Monty Python’s Flying Circus

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My esteemed colleague Jeff Killeen has proposed a couple of useful alternatives to the existing confiscatory tax system.  Alas, I see a couple o’ stumbling blocks here: 1) The abolition of the IRS:  I’d love it, but it ain’t gonna happen.   It’s too big a bureaucracy to nuke! 2) Gee, what are all the lawyers and tax accountants gonna do? Put up one hell of a fight, that’s what! I’d rather see a flat tax with money taken right off the top than a hidden VAT tax.  I want to know where every one of my hard-earned dollars is going.   What I DON’T want to see is BOTH taxes.  (Remember Donna Shalalalala’s trial balloon in this regard?)

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Hopefully we will see the end of the income tax was we know it in the next 4-6 years…    Option 1: A National Sale Tax – This would exclude items like    food, clothing, and housing so that the poor and low income    families would pay little in taxes.  The income tax would be    eliminated.  Entitlements would be means tested.  Money in the    underground economy would be brought into the system.    Option 2: A Flat Income Tax – This would include a $10,000    personal exemption so a family of 4 would only pay taxes on    income over $40,000.  Entitlements would be means tested.

Well, if we got to have a tax, I do like option 1 the best as stated.  There is something quite psychologically damaging to people to see a large fraction of their hard-earned income taken out *from the top* without them having any say in the matter (they see Congress spending their taxes in ways they don’t approve — liberals see taxes spent on defense, conservatives see taxes spent on certain social programs they see don’t work, etc.).  And such a demoralizing effect can affect all people’s ability to work harder, smarter, etc., to the detriment of society and *to the poor* of this country, whose best hope of rising through poverty is by a strong economy that needs skilled labor and is willing to train new people.  Just ask your average European citizen (most have stratospheric income tax rates) how ambitious they feel and if they are willing to take a chance with a new business idea — the answer to this is obvious as I’ve asked it many times to European friends from Belgium, Norway and Sweden.  Why try to increase your income from $50,000/year to $100,000 per year if 80-90% of the difference is paid in taxes as it is in many parts of the world and where the Left wants to do in the U.S.? — and I reject the notion that this extra $50,000 is taken out of someone elses pot — it is [usually] in actuality due to unique productivity (making something from nothing, "value added") which benefits *everybody*. A sales tax (or a Value Added Tax) does give individuals some semblance of control, and is usually accompanied by the acquisition of a tangible asset, usually enjoyable — they would consider it "the cost of getting something desired."  It is psychologically gentler and thus more moral.  (Especially if food, clothing and housing are not taxed.) It also encourages savings and investment, which will help with business growth.  In the short run, the extra influx of money to individuals (no income tax withholding) will cause a run on our economy (may even cause temporary inflationary pressures) which will encourage business growth. Remember McGovern’s proposal to give every man woman and child $5000? — his thinking was that this money (actually printed paper) would stimulate the economy and pay back this money several times over.  This is better than McGovern’s proposal in that the money is already there. The last advantage of a NST/VAT is that collecting taxes would be a lot easier to do since most businesses now collect sales tax anyway.  Compliance would be a lot easier as the bartering "black market" would disappear (which costs billions of dollars in revenue, on the order of $200 billion/year!  And this black market is due to the negative psychological impact that income taxes have on people!  Income taxes are immoral for that reason and should be opposed by all liberals if liberalism is to be really consistent with its fundamental tenets.)  I would even go as far as allowing businesses to keep 1-3% of the sales taxes they collect to help defray the added costs of collecting them and other government regulations — a way to give each businessman more psychological incentive to collect sales taxes. However, to prevent the return of an income tax if the Left takes over again (they consider it a matter of social and philosophical necessity to have an income tax in order to be able to control social policy!) we must have Constitutional Amendments to eliminate that possiblity, as well as putting on an absolute cap on the National Sales Tax, also by Amendment.  The only exceptions to this cap and an income tax would have to be carefully and specifically written so only in times of *true* National emergency could exceptions be allowed, and only temporarily (for example, such taxes would have to be renewed by Congress each year with a *3/4* or even *9/10* vote and approval by the President — if it’s a *true* National emergency, I’m sure getting the 3/4 or 9/10 vote would be easy and the people would gladly support these *temporary* taxes.) As a separate, but related subject, I’ve been intrigued with the idea of instituting a yearly poll of all voter-registered Americans, analogous to the ten-year Census.  In this poll, each American would be asked how they’d like to see their tax dollars (all forms of Federal taxes) spent, maybe by percentage in a general category (e.g., by Cabinet-level).  The statistics would be gathered and must be published yearly as well as what was actually budgeted.  This way, if there are big differences, Congress and individual Congresspersons would be under a little more pressure to heed to the wishes of the American people.  If we still have an income tax then can weight the data in two ways:  by individual, and by taxes paid.  BTW, has such a poll be done privately? Jon Noring — OmniMedia           | Hypertext electronic books for Windows 3.1 are available! 1312 Carlton Place  | Current offerings via anonymous ftp:  ftp.netcom.com Livermore, CA 94550 | /pub/OmniMedia/books .  E-book publishing service follows 510-294-8153        | NWU recommendations.  WWW home page coming very soon!

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