Question:
The more the merrier.
Ok, I’ll bite since this is favorite topic and this nasty virus I contracted at Kmart or other public place has calmed down. First off I hate you bloody scientists when you insist on counting steps, breaths, mileage/pace/time to twelve decimal points and now some alpha, beta, rho factor to measure effort. You will need a 20 gig hard drive just to house all your data. Ran 6.32 miles, 8:22 pace, time 50:22:33(to include a short walk, two pee breaks, and moderate flatulence), took 114, 109, etc steps, Maybe we can combine fear of failure factor an how it relates to over-reaching vs over-training and injuries. I have written a letter to every college president requesting their hard science departments instruct all students that using science in running logs books is a violation of church and state. Ok, the above is all tongue in cheek although the fear of failure factor, or more likely fear of not improving rapidly and steadily enough over long periods of time, while made up on the fly, may have more validity than I originally intended. Type A self-flagellation but I’m digressing. Anywho, effort. I kept a log book for a about 15 years starting off with rigorous details to include those numerous decimal points and colons. As the years went by I adopted the KISS (keep is simple stupid) method. I did record the following: mileage( to the whole mile – it all averages out over weeks and years), how I felt and quality. My quality(effort as being used discussed here) notion related back to the hard/easy principle. When I first got serious about running and tilted at the injury Gods, I needed to keep closer accounting of quality. With trial and effort I found I could handle at best 3 quality days per week with recovery days sandwiched. Quality was a track workout, LSD or hill session. ( I confess to decimals and colons while doing recording track intervals). These were noted with an asterisk so a casual look at 7 lines in the log book and know exactly where I was or history. I never found the need to quantify quality. Sorry but that is like decimal points with mileage. but Dot’s question brings up something I’ve tried and haven’t been able to resolve. I have an "effort" measure I record that is completely subjective.
Well Dot and I have swapped a few Emails on effort especially as how it relates to energy and injuries while she avidly cross trains in her winter abode. 
Where she uses snowshoes, others try running on the beach or hills etc etc. When one thinks of the 6 miles on the beach as just 6 miles without putting an effort asterisk next to it, you are bowing down to the injury gods. I admit I do not keep a log anymore but I do manage two quality days per week. This works for me and keeps me whole. I probably do in two days what I used to in three so in effect I have simply rearranged my efforts. My quality day might be pounding a mountain for 3-8 hours. So yes, keep track of effort but don’t go to nuts with a coefficient of difficulty. Keeping track of quality and rest is equally as important as quantity. When I see multiple quality days in a row with little rest, it is just a mater of time before someone pleads "my yada-yada hurts" and they go on the injured reserve list. I hope this makes sense as I has stopped and started this note three times and lost my train of thought and hate to proofread as is often noted. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese
Response:
Layne, I think you have more detail in your log than I do in mine (based on the above and your other post). I don’t feel so bad now 
But I’ll bet you don’t have layers of clothes , which is what prompted the db in the first place.
You got that right (clothing layers). Although, I do keep up with t-shirts, "heavy" singlets, and mesh singlets. Yeah, it’s a lot of data and I’m not as good about always recording it as I should be. But, given the choice of watching mind numbing USA network TV or doing a neural workout, I’d rather do the neural versions of speed work, trail work, and LSDs <G. That’s a very good approach you have. It would also fit in with Doug’s description of recovery. I don’t have a potential damage (wear and tear) measure but should. Thanks, I’ll need to think about this one. You should see my log from mid-Dec to early Feb and you would understand why I had to do something The week I had a problem, I only ran 2 hours (only planned that), and the week before I did 1.5 hours, and I had been running about 2.5 to 3 hrs/week with no problems. But that says nothing about the snow depth at the time or the skiing / snowshoeing I did instead of long runs on Sundays.
That’s really good that you were able to work this out. I’m still amazed at the difference aspects of running. I’m volunteering for a swamp ultra on the 24th and am interested to see how it comes off (snakes, gators, skeeters, etc.). Sounds like fun. Let us know how it goes.
I’ll do a volunteer report. I’ve also looked at AHR during 5K events (I didn’t look at it *during* the event <G) but it doesn’t have a linear relationship with pace (from 151 to 164) but temperature and AHR account for a large part of pace. Interesting. I guess that’s not too surprising that AHR and temperature account for most of the variation where you are. I wonder if I should try to generate the other half of the temperature effect – from +40F down to -20F – and see if we can find an optimum where "cooler" temperatures don’t result in faster pace
Good idea. I’ll let you handle the low temp end <VBG. Layne
Response:
Yep, I agree. I have categories for road (neighborhood and city), trail (upland and swamp), beach (near waterline and quad depth), and a category for route familiarity (new, been-there, and home).
Layne, I think you have more detail in your log than I do in mine (based on the above and your other post). I don’t feel so bad now But I’ll bet you don’t have layers of clothes , which is what prompted the db in the first place. … That’s a very good approach you have. It would also fit in with Doug’s description of recovery. I don’t have a potential damage (wear and tear) measure but should. Thanks, I’ll need to think about this one.
You should see my log from mid-Dec to early Feb and you would understand why I had to do something The week I had a problem, I only ran 2 hours (only planned that), and the week before I did 1.5 hours, and I had been running about 2.5 to 3 hrs/week with no problems. But that says nothing about the snow depth at the time or the skiing / snowshoeing I did instead of long runs on Sundays. I’m volunteering for a swamp ultra on the 24th and am interested to see how it comes off (snakes, gators, skeeters, etc.).
Sounds like fun. Let us know how it goes. … Yeah, data that isn’t part of work is a whole lot better than data we’re supposed to analyze. Your idea about studying the variation in a multidimensional plot (S is very good for this) was also the way I’d started. After a while, the changes due to improved fitness level proved to overwhelm the small variations. Although, the longer runs showed where my fitness level needed work.
It’s neat that you are able to pick that out. Hal Higdon talks about the aging effect reducing the distance before fitness breaks down. Obviously, the ultra folks in r.r are the exceptions.
Heck, they’re not just in r.r I’ve also looked at AHR during 5K events (I didn’t look at it *during* the event <G) but it doesn’t have a linear relationship with pace (from 151 to 164) but temperature and AHR account for a large part of pace.
Interesting. I guess that’s not too surprising that AHR and temperature account for most of the variation where you are. I wonder if I should try to generate the other half of the temperature effect – from +40F down to -20F – and see if we can find an optimum where "cooler" temperatures don’t result in faster pace Better get back to my report. Good luck with your models. Dot
Response:
Please excuse me for jumping in here
The more the merrier. but Dot’s question brings up something I’ve tried and haven’t been able to resolve. I have an "effort" measure I record that is completely subjective. I realize that it can be easily influenced by many other things (work stress, sleep patterns, colds and the like, etc. I had hoped that as I got more experience, the reliability of the "effort" measure would improve. Have ya’ll tried anything like this? And, just to make sure, Robert, is this your "wear and tear" factor?
I’ve never recorded it, but I do think in terms of perceived effort. "wear and tear’ is Dot’s term. In time, I learned that perceived effort did pick up on the pace loss from hot, and from hot and humid. These days, I find that a given route whose hills used to up the perceived effort, now doesn’t. Ultimately I translated the temperature effect to 20 sec/mile for hot, 40 sec/mile for hot and humid. 10 sec/mile for noticeable hills (but ‘noticeable’ is now substantially more significant than 3 years ago). Those are my figures; on the whole they all seem high compared to other folks. The perceived effort is highly accurate. Relating that to times, much less so. A recurring thread is the number of times we surprise ourselves by running PRs on days we felt lousy. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Response:
Layne, Just another quick thought. Have you tried looking at your avg hr in any of these relations? Could that work as a surrogate for your "effort"? I’m kinda doing that with mine. My "effort" db field is *planned* easy (easy, lsd), medium (steady), hard (which I haven’t done yet), and gentle (recovery). Then use my avg hr as a surrogate for "what it felt like". My avg hr for easy runs is almost always within a few heartbeats of each other – *except* on highly stressful work days (as in drained mentally, energywise – not as in highly annoyed) or just starting after summer field work, etc. Those runs are about 5+ bpm less than my usual average – and I only do those days at planned easy. (The "annoyed" days result in "steady" pace runs but generally around the same avg hr that I run those – by definition, almost.) Just a thought. Dot
Response:
I’ve never recorded it, but I do think in terms of perceived effort. "wear and tear’ is Dot’s term.
Sorry about that. In time, I learned that perceived effort did pick up on the pace loss from hot, and from hot and humid. These days, I find that a given route whose hills used to up the perceived effort, now doesn’t. Ultimately I translated the temperature effect to 20 sec/mile for hot, 40 sec/mile for hot and humid. 10 sec/mile for noticeable hills (but ‘noticeable’ is now substantially more significant than 3 years ago). Those are my figures; on the whole they all seem high compared to other folks.
That’s pretty neat. It’s nice to see what you’ve done with this. My beginner condition is still confounding any stable measures (which is actually a good thing). The perceived effort is highly accurate. Relating that to times, much less so. A recurring thread is the number of times we surprise ourselves by running PRs on days we felt lousy.
I’ve noticed the lousy perception/good time effect, too. Weird. In areas other than running, people are able to give reliable perception ratings after they’ve been trained to do it. I’m assuming that pace detection is a characteristic of perceiving effort but I’m still working on being able to tell my pace at any given time. Give me a few years and I hope to be able to converse with a little more accurately. Thanks, Layne
Response:
For curiosity, when you were doing trail and hill runs last year, did you need to treat those with a different alpha than your paved, relatively flat runs? or was that the difference in the higher alpha at your "much longer distance" that you referred to?
Alas and alack. Ok, there’s a second limit. It only applies for similar course topographies. Trail running is a different creature than road or track, and one for which I don’t chase times. Typically I don’t have distances, so couldn’t apply a predictor even if I wanted to. But, what would seem to work is to take something like your ‘wear and tear’ factor. Between two distances at a similar ‘wear and tear’ level, the same alpha as for track would apply — again, as long as the level weren’t high enough to require significant walking. For me, I adjust trails to flat-equivalent by taking the time I run and dividing by the pace I’d be running on the flat at that effort level. HAT, given other people’s marathon times, seems to be about a 25% difficulty adjustment (and does include significant walking). For an ultra, that seems low. But it’s equivalent to telling a 40 minute road 10k’er that 50 minutes would be equivalent. Scares them off. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Response:
Hi, Dot, Layne, Just another quick thought. Have you tried looking at your avg hr in any of these relations? Could that work as a surrogate for your "effort"? I’m kinda doing that with mine. My "effort" db field is *planned* easy (easy, lsd), medium (steady), hard (which I haven’t done yet), and gentle (recovery). Then use my avg hr as a surrogate for "what it felt like". My avg hr for easy runs is almost always within a few heartbeats of each other – *except* on highly stressful work days (as in drained mentally, energywise – not as in highly annoyed) or just starting after summer field work, etc. Those runs are about 5+ bpm less than my usual average – and I only do those days at planned easy. (The "annoyed" days result in "steady" pace runs but generally around the same avg hr that I run those – by definition, almost.) Just a thought.
As a matter of fact, AHR was one of the main factors in my models. I don’t monitor it during a run (too many other things to deal with <G). Like you, the AHR doesn’t vary a lot (from 132 for 3 miles running trails with another beginner to 148 on a hot day) and cardiac creep over distance tends to account for a lot of higher AHR readings. I’ve also looked at AHR during 5K events (I didn’t look at it *during* the event <G) but it doesn’t have a linear relationship with pace (from 151 to 164) but temperature and AHR account for a large part of pace. Your effort categories are pretty nice (I particularly like the annoyed category and plan to add it in somewhere). I’d started off with three 10-point Likert scales (physical, mental, and life-its-own-self) but that was too much resolution and backed off to 5-point scales. I think that I may have started recording this stuff too soon since high mental effort is usually associated with trying new things and high physical effort is still related to distance. Good thoughts. Thanks, Layne
Response:
Please excuse me for jumping in here Actually, I think I jumped in on you and Maggie first. When I made my comments above, I was also thinking about your beach runs that you may need to separate those.
Yep, I agree. I have categories for road (neighborhood and city), trail (upland and swamp), beach (near waterline and quad depth), and a category for route familiarity (new, been-there, and home). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -but Dot’s question brings up something I’ve tried and haven’t been able to resolve. I have an "effort" measure I record that is completely subjective. I realize that it can be easily influenced by many other things (work stress, sleep patterns, colds and the like, etc. I had hoped that as I got more experience, the reliability of the "effort" measure would improve. Have ya’ll tried anything like this? And, just to make sure, Robert, is this your "wear and tear" factor? The "wear and tear" factor that I’m including in my log is literally based on perceived wear and tear to legs from knees down, approximately, since that is *my* weak link – rest of me generally doesn’t feel like it’s had any exercise most of the time (slight exaggeration, but pretty close to truth). This goes back to the cross-training discussion we had about a month ago. I’m using it to adjust my logged times – that is, 1 hr in 4 inches of snow with light crust may have the equivalent wear and tear on knees, shins, feet of 1.5 hr of flat pavement (when break through the crust, you can’t anticipate when you’re going to hit bottom, so it’s not as soft as one might expect – goes back to a thread last fall). But TOL is still only 1 hr. Snowshoe walking, OTOH, for 1 hr in 4 in soft snow (no crust) might be equivalent wear and tear to about 0.5 hr equivalent wear and tear on pavement. So I’m using that to adjust for snow/ice conditions, snowshoe walking/running, skiing, etc. so that I can get sufficient exercise to get tired without overdoing it. I adjust back to pavement for now, because unfortunately, that’s where most of my experience is right now. It’s not aerobic at all. When looking at my log (in Access, finally – decided NOW was a good time to finish constructing it and transferring data , I look at both the time and adjusted time. And I’m just dealing with the first approximation now – most factors are minor tweaks except when dealing with snowshoeing and skiing.
That’s a very good approach you have. It would also fit in with Doug’s description of recovery. I don’t have a potential damage (wear and tear) measure but should. Thanks, I’ll need to think about this one. [As a side note to people that think running on snow is totally insane, the majority of ultras (at least that I've been able to find in mainland Alaka) up here take place in February - two don't finish til March in Nome - after 1100 miles. Choose your weapon - run, ski, bike And that doesn't count the Iditarod sled dog race that started today. It's a busy trail out there right now ]
I gotta admit that I’m not enlightened enough to understand those – or the 150 miler through the Sahara. I’m volunteering for a swamp ultra on the 24th and am interested to see how it comes off (snakes, gators, skeeters, etc.). Your "effort" sounds like it’s more general, but more relevant to the predictor equation and in what you seem to be trying to model. It almost seems like it would be "variation" on a scatter plot around the theoretical equation – probably mostly with longer times than predicted. But with enough runs at similar "effort", might that fit it’s own eqn with another alpha?? Just me guessing – absolutely no facts involved (yes, I’m bored analyzing work-related data and writing reports)
Yeah, data that isn’t part of work is a whole lot better than data we’re supposed to analyze. Your idea about studying the variation in a multidimensional plot (S is very good for this) was also the way I’d started. After a while, the changes due to improved fitness level proved to overwhelm the small variations. Although, the longer runs showed where my fitness level needed work. Hal Higdon talks about the aging effect reducing the distance before fitness breaks down. Obviously, the ultra folks in r.r are the exceptions. Yep, it’s gonna be an interesting next several years. Layne
Response:
Please excuse me for jumping in here
Actually, I think I jumped in on you and Maggie first. When I made my comments above, I was also thinking about your beach runs that you may need to separate those. but Dot’s question brings up something I’ve tried and haven’t been able to resolve. I have an "effort" measure I record that is completely subjective. I realize that it can be easily influenced by many other things (work stress, sleep patterns, colds and the like, etc. I had hoped that as I got more experience, the reliability of the "effort" measure would improve. Have ya’ll tried anything like this? And, just to make sure, Robert, is this your "wear and tear" factor?
The "wear and tear" factor that I’m including in my log is literally based on perceived wear and tear to legs from knees down, approximately, since that is *my* weak link – rest of me generally doesn’t feel like it’s had any exercise most of the time (slight exaggeration, but pretty close to truth). This goes back to the cross-training discussion we had about a month ago. I’m using it to adjust my logged times – that is, 1 hr in 4 inches of snow with light crust may have the equivalent wear and tear on knees, shins, feet of 1.5 hr of flat pavement (when break through the crust, you can’t anticipate when you’re going to hit bottom, so it’s not as soft as one might expect – goes back to a thread last fall). But TOL is still only 1 hr. Snowshoe walking, OTOH, for 1 hr in 4 in soft snow (no crust) might be equivalent wear and tear to about 0.5 hr equivalent wear and tear on pavement. So I’m using that to adjust for snow/ice conditions, snowshoe walking/running, skiing, etc. so that I can get sufficient exercise to get tired without overdoing it. I adjust back to pavement for now, because unfortunately, that’s where most of my experience is right now. It’s not aerobic at all. When looking at my log (in Access, finally – decided NOW was a good time to finish constructing it and transferring data , I look at both the time and adjusted time. And I’m just dealing with the first approximation now – most factors are minor tweaks except when dealing with snowshoeing and skiing. [As a side note to people that think running on snow is totally insane, the majority of ultras (at least that I've been able to find in mainland Alaka) up here take place in February - two don't finish til March in Nome - after 1100 miles. Choose your weapon - run, ski, bike And that doesn't count the Iditarod sled dog race that started today. It's a busy trail out there right now ] Your "effort" sounds like it’s more general, but more relevant to the predictor equation and in what you seem to be trying to model. It almost seems like it would be "variation" on a scatter plot around the theoretical equation – probably mostly with longer times than predicted. But with enough runs at similar "effort", might that fit it’s own eqn with another alpha?? Just me guessing – absolutely no facts involved (yes, I’m bored analyzing work-related data and writing reports) Dot
Response:
[snip] Yep, I agree. I’m not at your (Maggie) level but I appreciate the info that Robert has provided. I’ll save it for later when I can apply it. Layne, do observe that the formula says nothing about what your times are. To the extent it works at all, it works regardless of running pace.
For curiosity, when you were doing trail and hill runs last year, did you need to treat those with a different alpha than your paved, relatively flat runs? or was that the difference in the higher alpha at your "much longer distance" that you referred to? I’m just curious, since I live in more of a stochastic, rather than deterministic, world – primarily because my surfaces differ so much from one run to the next even if they are the same route I run ‘em, log ‘em, then plot ‘em. I’ve incorporated a somewhat arbitrary "wear-and-tear" adjustment factor in my running log now to adjust training times for different surfaces – completely different objective than what you are doing but I’m always curious how some of the more model oriented approaches take different surfaces into account. Dot
Response:
[snip] Yep, I agree. I’m not at your (Maggie) level but I appreciate the info that Robert has provided. I’ll save it for later when I can apply it.
Layne, do observe that the formula says nothing about what your times are. To the extent it works at all, it works regardless of running pace. (It does fail if you’re including nontrivial amounts of walking.) You may not _want_ to use it at this point, for reasons of your own. But there’s nothing in there says says you _can’t_. In other words, don’t shortchange yourself. One use you might find amusing as you’ve run a number of races. That is, take your race times and project your 5k time (or any other single distance) for each race. The fastest projected 5k suggests what distance might be your best at the moment. Given a notion of your best distance, you might then think about structuring your standard running program towards that distance. Or, you might find what distance you’re currently looking weakest at and build your program towards that. I’ve done both myself. Have fun! — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Response:
For curiosity, when you were doing trail and hill runs last year, did you need to treat those with a different alpha than your paved, relatively flat runs? or was that the difference in the higher alpha at your "much longer distance" that you referred to? Alas and alack. Ok, there’s a second limit. It only applies for similar course topographies. Trail running is a different creature than road or track,
Thanks. That’s what I suspected. and one for which I don’t chase times. Typically I don’t have distances, so couldn’t apply a predictor even if I wanted to.
My philosophy is why ruin a pretty trail run with a lot of details esp. if I have to reroute around a moose. Seriously, I do keep track of time and approximate mileage, but look at them as scatter plots – and definitely not worried about pace. As long as the time and/or distance are generally increasing across a month period (goal is building mileage, TOL, which may not be the same), I’m happy – esp. when I’m dealing with subzero temps and snow/ice. HAT, given other people’s marathon times, seems to be about a 25% difficulty adjustment (and does include significant walking). For an ultra, that seems low. But it’s equivalent to telling a 40 minute road 10k’er that 50 minutes would be equivalent. Scares them off.
Hmm, there’s my problem – that’s "rounding" error for me (but for 6k, not 10k) – depending on how deep the snow is Given the fact that the 10k bike leg on my tri was 13k, I’ve found liberal interpretations are helpful up here. And I think that’s generally true for trails – except for certified courses – people tend not to worry about exactly how long the run is. Thanks again. IF I ever get enough data points of the same kind, I’ll try it, for curiosity. Dot
Response:
Layne, do observe that the formula says nothing about what your times are. To the extent it works at all, it works regardless of running pace. (It does fail if you’re including nontrivial amounts of walking.) You may not _want_ to use it at this point, for reasons of your own. But there’s nothing in there says says you _can’t_.
One of the side benefits of running (for me, anyway) is generating data that is of propriatary interest and building models with it. Initially, I’d planned on trying a "beginner’s" model to look at improvement. The models I’ve done so far aren’t of much practical value but they provide some nice mental training (equally important to physical training for my personal well-being). Your approach is one that I hadn’t considered so I appreciate it. In other words, don’t shortchange yourself. One use you might find amusing as you’ve run a number of races. That is, take your race times and project your 5k time (or any other single distance) for each race. The fastest projected 5k suggests what distance might be your best at the moment. Given a notion of your best distance, you might then think about structuring your standard running program towards that distance. Or, you might find what distance you’re currently looking weakest at and build your program towards that. I’ve done both myself.
Very good ideas. Thanks! Since I’m still working on fitness, I’ve broken the event runs into splits to see where my fitness starts to break down (given temp, distance, effort/pace, etc.). Hmm, I wonder if the RR formula might be applied to portions of an event? Have fun!
You betcha. Thanks for the good info. Layne
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But, what would seem to work is to take something like your ‘wear and tear’ factor. Between two distances at a similar ‘wear and tear’ level, the same alpha as for track would apply — again, as long as the level weren’t high enough to require significant walking. For me, I adjust trails to flat-equivalent by taking the time I run and dividing by the pace I’d be running on the flat at that effort level. HAT, given other people’s marathon times, seems to be about a 25% difficulty adjustment (and does include significant walking). For an ultra, that seems low. But it’s equivalent to telling a 40 minute road 10k’er that 50 minutes would be equivalent. Scares them off.
Please excuse me for jumping in here but Dot’s question brings up something I’ve tried and haven’t been able to resolve. I have an "effort" measure I record that is completely subjective. I realize that it can be easily influenced by many other things (work stress, sleep patterns, colds and the like, etc. I had hoped that as I got more experience, the reliability of the "effort" measure would improve. Have ya’ll tried anything like this? And, just to make sure, Robert, is this your "wear and tear" factor? Thanks, Layne
Response:
Hi, How much you taper depends on what your expectations are. First of all what is your recovery like when you do a long run. The idea of a taper, as you know, is to rest the body before a big event. If your ability to recover is good then you need a shorter taper, if it is bad then you need a longer one. Also how frequent were your long runs, once a week, every other week? If you’ve been doing a long run every week and on Tuesday you feel fine enough to run 6 miles or so then I’d say run 10 Sunday and the rest of the week don’t run longer than 6 miles with Friday and Saturday short relaxed runs (the question of running before a race is purely up to you, everybody does something different). If you are doing a long run every other weekend then you may want to cut your long run short but continue the rest of the week as described above. Sounds like you have a solid plan. Even better you know your own body and limitations. That is the single most important skill that a runner can use to improve. Let us know how it goes, Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi guys! I hope the stupid questions will taper off themselves, once I get more experienced at this. In a decade or so. ;-) *As you all know,* since I subject everyone to the information every chance I get, I’m running my first half on 3/17. This will be the first time I’ve raced a distance further than any distance I’ve run. I ran 12 miles in January and got tendinitis, and I haven’t run more than 10 since (because I had to cut back, then build up by the dreaded 10%). I feel pretty good, but I’m not risking more than 10 until the half. Unless I get injured or sick, I’m confident I can do that distance. Now, this week I’m running my usual 30 miles, with a 10 mile long run. I’ve read you’re not supposed to do a long run before a race. Next weekend, what do I do for my long run? During the week, I run 4’s and 6’s. Usually, on my "rest" week, I do an 8 mile long run. Should I do 8 or cut back even further, e.g. to 6, next weekend? The following week I will taper, because I want to be plenty rested for that race. I’m going to do a 6 and two 4’s, and then 2 miles on Saturday, and then the race on Sunday. If you have any other advice you want to offer, y’know, to make me nervous and insecure that what I’m doing is wrong, feel free. Thanks in advance, Maggie
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Hi guys! What, don’t the gals count? Okay, you caught me. I’m just looking for some much-needed male attention, posting my weekly miles and all. I know how that gets you guys all hot. ;-)
Sexy athletic women. Sounds good to me. (By the way, on the guy/gal thing, I’m from an area where ‘guys’, especially ‘you guys’ is universal, not exclusive.) It seems that running common sense hasn’t burned any pathways into my brain yet. What you wrote makes perfect sense, after reading it, I think "of course," but I was really worried about the distance next Saturday.
I asked my share of questions (still do) whose answers were retrospectively obvious. I like your suggestion to do a run at half-marathon pace. Unfortunately, I have no idea what half-marathon pace is. In fact, the whole issue of running at a pace is bothering me, going back to the other thread on speed training. I guess I’ll learn. Back to the subject of the half — I was hoping for 9-minute miles. I did a race pace calculator at runners world, based on my 5K race time, and it thinks I can run 8:30. Ha ha. That must be for actually fast people — I have a feeling that formula doesn’t apply to slow people.
The runner’s world calculator assumes that the slow down with distance follows a power law with exponent of 1.07. Tom Ehrensberger did some work (I link to the full report from my page) which indicated that 1.10 is a better value in general. My own seems to be more like 1.12 after being accustomed to both distances. For early tries at a much longer distance, 1.15 to 1.18 seems more reasonable for me. So, reverse-engineering to your 5k time and applying these figures gives 1.07 1:51 8:30 Outrageously optimistic 1.10 1:56 8:53 Optimistic 1.12 2:00 9:08 Middle of the road 1.15 2:05 9:32 Conservative 1.18 2:10 9:57 Pessimistic Again, that’s based solely on the estimated 5k time and the power law descent. From what I recall of your training, you’ve probably already done close to half marathon distance at distinctly faster than 10:00 pace. I’ll add that some of your run times, even if not raced, for 4-10 miles are quite possibly faster than descent by some of the slower of the above estimators. Should help you limit the plausibilities. Also, to emphasize, the above are based on assuming that your 5k PR is still valid. If your training in the last few months has been significantly better (or just that the few months is a significant addition to your base) then what is above as very optimistic can become anything down to pretty conservative. Great, now I have something new to worry about. Actually, I was already worried about it, only because I’ve been warned about the hill at mile 12. But I think, I’m certainly not going to go out near my 4-mile pace, which is 8:15-8:25. I know I can’t sustain that for 10 miles, never mind 13. I’m going to ask around and go out near the 9mm people, and see how it feels and how I’m doing at each mile marker, and adjust accordingly. I’m not gonna run this feeling like I want to die the whole way!
Excellent plan. To the extent the predictors above carry weight, I’d suggest that 9 mm is a pretty good figure. Try a 4 miler at that pace, and remember to hold back at the start of the race. (Tapering messes up my sense of pace. What would normally be a 9 mm feeling often turns out to be 8 on race day.) Have fun with it, take it very easy for the first half (it’ll take some work to slow down to your targeted 9 mm in the first half), and when the hill arrives, take some confidence from having been running easily the first 12 miles. You’ll also get the lift of watching the rest of the field move backwards. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
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Hi, Bob! (Layne, regarding the manual, would that be that post-it note that Roda showed me which said "allude to your tits"?)
(Hmm, she found the unabridged, advanced version.) And Layne, what would Ozzie say? This is such a great learning opportunity for us. :-) I like this kind of learning opportunity better than when I had tendinitis, it’s a bit more positive. I’m really so grateful to have all of this guidance, or it would be going so much more slowly.
Yep, I agree. I’m not at your (Maggie) level but I appreciate the info that Robert has provided. I’ll save it for later when I can apply it. Layne
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Hi, Bob! (By the way, on the guy/gal thing, I’m from an area where ‘guys’, especially ‘you guys’ is universal, not exclusive.) Yes, here as well. It’s hard for me to get in the habit of posting "folks," it just doesn’t come naturally, but I try to. I guess I slipped, and I’ve paid for it! ;-)
Just a rib between friends. My use of a generic ‘guys’ has been a real life situation as some of the PC police object. I asked my share of questions (still do) whose answers were retrospectively obvious. And now you’re handing out the answers. And I’m grateful. :-)
Take a few, pass a few. Keep the world running. that 1.10 is a better value in general. My own seems to be more like 1.12 after being accustomed to both distances. For early tries at a much longer distance, 1.15 to 1.18 seems more reasonable for me. I love this! Give me things I can calculate. Now I have something new with which to fill my running notebook!
Then we’ll have to specify that the formula is T = T0 * (L/L0)^alpha where T0 and L0 are the known time and distance, alpha is the descent parameter (as I call it) that is in the range of 1.1, L is the distance of interest, and T is the projected time. ^ is exponentiation. Depending on how I look at it, it’s ok from long distances down to 3-5k, maybe mile, and at shortest, 200m. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, reverse-engineering to your 5k time and applying these figures gives 1.07 1:51 8:30 Outrageously optimistic 1.10 1:56 8:53 Optimistic 1.12 2:00 9:08 Middle of the road 1.15 2:05 9:32 Conservative 1.18 2:10 9:57 Pessimistic This is great! Now, I hate to get all girly, but since I’ve been subjected to posts about frozen danglies and chafing nipples (I just cringe even to type it), I’ll explain my confusion. I regularly run 10 miles around 9:30. But the day I ran 12, I felt great and I ran it at 9. A little under, in fact. Here’s the thing — it was my placebo week of the pill. That darn thing slows me down (I think) by about a half minute a mile. I will also be in the placebo week the week of the race, so I *hope* that a 9mm pace is reasonable. And I agree, after a taper, it may be hard to go out so slowly, which is why I’m going to monitor carefully. But I will do a four-mile run at that pace, for practice. I feel more confident about the pace now, seeing your calculations.
If you have a 12 miler comfortably in hand at 9 min/mile pace, then with the taper and race day excitement, 13.1 at the same pace is pretty much foregone as long as you don’t bolt off the starting line. (You can also use the above formula and your 5k and 12 mile times to estimate alpha. Since you weren’t racing the 12 miles, this is a worst case alpha.) I’ve wondered about the possibility of things like your potential placebo week effect. Ages back when a woman asked about what to put in her running log, I suggested this type of information. Since you’ve been a good (or obsessive, take your pick girl and keeping a running log, you might get some more illumination by going back and checking this point out. Maggie, very excited — mailed the application today
Looking forward to the race report! — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
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(By the way, on the guy/gal thing, I’m from an area where ‘guys’, especially ‘you guys’ is universal, not exclusive.)
Whew, glad for the clarification, Bob! I thought I was going to get arrested by the pc (politically correct) police here, too. I’m always getting dinged on university property about "2-man tents", etc. Dot
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Hi, Bob! (By the way, on the guy/gal thing, I’m from an area where ‘guys’, especially ‘you guys’ is universal, not exclusive.)
Yes, here as well. It’s hard for me to get in the habit of posting "folks," it just doesn’t come naturally, but I try to. I guess I slipped, and I’ve paid for it! ;-) (Layne, regarding the manual, would that be that post-it note that Roda showed me which said "allude to your tits"?) I asked my share of questions (still do) whose answers were retrospectively obvious.
And now you’re handing out the answers. And I’m grateful. :-) that 1.10 is a better value in general. My own seems to be more like 1.12 after being accustomed to both distances. For early tries at a much longer distance, 1.15 to 1.18 seems more reasonable for me.
I love this! Give me things I can calculate. Now I have something new with which to fill my running notebook! So, reverse-engineering to your 5k time and applying these figures gives 1.07 1:51 8:30 Outrageously optimistic 1.10 1:56 8:53 Optimistic 1.12 2:00 9:08 Middle of the road 1.15 2:05 9:32 Conservative 1.18 2:10 9:57 Pessimistic
This is great! Now, I hate to get all girly, but since I’ve been subjected to posts about frozen danglies and chafing nipples (I just cringe even to type it), I’ll explain my confusion. I regularly run 10 miles around 9:30. But the day I ran 12, I felt great and I ran it at 9. A little under, in fact. Here’s the thing — it was my placebo week of the pill. That darn thing slows me down (I think) by about a half minute a mile. I will also be in the placebo week the week of the race, so I *hope* that a 9mm pace is reasonable. And I agree, after a taper, it may be hard to go out so slowly, which is why I’m going to monitor carefully. But I will do a four-mile run at that pace, for practice. I feel more confident about the pace now, seeing your calculations. Thanks again! And Layne, what would Ozzie say? This is such a great learning opportunity for us. :-) I like this kind of learning opportunity better than when I had tendinitis, it’s a bit more positive. I’m really so grateful to have all of this guidance, or it would be going so much more slowly. Maggie, very excited — mailed the application today
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Hi guys! I hope the stupid questions will taper off themselves, once I get more experienced at this. In a decade or so. ;-) *As you all know,* since I subject everyone to the information every chance I get, I’m running my first half on 3/17. This will be the first time I’ve raced a distance further than any distance I’ve run. I ran 12 miles in January and got tendinitis, and I haven’t run more than 10 since (because I had to cut back, then build up by the dreaded 10%). I feel pretty good, but I’m not risking more than 10 until the half. Unless I get injured or sick, I’m confident I can do that distance. Now, this week I’m running my usual 30 miles, with a 10 mile long run. I’ve read you’re not supposed to do a long run before a race. Next weekend, what do I do for my long run? During the week, I run 4’s and 6’s. Usually, on my "rest" week, I do an 8 mile long run. Should I do 8 or cut back even further, e.g. to 6, next weekend? The following week I will taper, because I want to be plenty rested for that race. I’m going to do a 6 and two 4’s, and then 2 miles on Saturday, and then the race on Sunday. If you have any other advice you want to offer, y’know, to make me nervous and insecure that what I’m doing is wrong, feel free. Thanks in advance, Maggie
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Hi guys!
What, don’t the gals count? I hope the stupid questions will taper off themselves, once I get more experienced at this. In a decade or so. ;-)
Haven’t yet seen a stupid question from you. Keep ‘em coming. [cut] Now, this week I’m running my usual 30 miles, with a 10 mile long run.
Far more miles than I was putting in prior to the first time I ran a half marathon. I’ve read you’re not supposed to do a long run before a race. Next weekend, what do I do for my long run? During the week, I run 4’s and 6’s. Usually, on my "rest" week, I do an 8 mile long run. Should I do 8 or cut back even further, e.g. to 6, next weekend? The following week I will taper, because I want to be plenty rested for that race. I’m going to do a 6 and two 4’s, and then 2 miles on Saturday, and then the race on Sunday. If you have any other advice you want to offer, y’know, to make me nervous and insecure that what I’m doing is wrong, feel free.
Tapering, like warming up, is very individual. One element to consider: In terms of training effect improving your times, you can’t do anything for that in the last 10-14 days (iirc). So, in that span, do whatever you’d like that avoids injury and leaves you feeling ready to go race well. Variety is generally good. Some distance at race pace (4 miles at half marathon pace?) can be good to reassure yourself that you know the pace and as a reminder to avoid starting the race too fast. If you take a while to recover from your long runs, as in you tend to feel a little ‘draggy’ when you go out 5 days later (or 8 or 10 or 12, …) then do make sure you’ve got at least that long before your race. Especially for a long race like this, in your taper you want to approach the race feeling like you have to hold back from doing the race a day early. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
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Robert, Hi guys! What, don’t the gals count?
Okay, you caught me. I’m just looking for some much-needed male attention, posting my weekly miles and all. I know how that gets you guys all hot. ;-) But seriously, once again, thank you. It seems that running common sense hasn’t burned any pathways into my brain yet. What you wrote makes perfect sense, after reading it, I think "of course," but I was really worried about the distance next Saturday. I like your suggestion to do a run at half-marathon pace. Unfortunately, I have no idea what half-marathon pace is. In fact, the whole issue of running at a pace is bothering me, going back to the other thread on speed training. I guess I’ll learn. Back to the subject of the half — I was hoping for 9-minute miles. I did a race pace calculator at runners world, based on my 5K race time, and it thinks I can run 8:30. Ha ha. That must be for actually fast people — I have a feeling that formula doesn’t apply to slow people. Anyway, I know how that would feel — too fast. :-) Great, now I have something new to worry about. Actually, I was already worried about it, only because I’ve been warned about the hill at mile 12. But I think, I’m certainly not going to go out near my 4-mile pace, which is 8:15-8:25. I know I can’t sustain that for 10 miles, never mind 13. I’m going to ask around and go out near the 9mm people, and see how it feels and how I’m doing at each mile marker, and adjust accordingly. I’m not gonna run this feeling like I want to die the whole way! Maggie
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Robert, Hi guys! What, don’t the gals count? Okay, you caught me. I’m just looking for some much-needed male attention, posting my weekly miles and all. I know how that gets you guys all hot. ;-)
All right you guys. Who left their Males’ Manual of Manly Mannerisms lying around for Maggie to find? I like your suggestion to do a run at half-marathon pace. Unfortunately, I have no idea what half-marathon pace is. In fact, the whole issue of running at a pace is bothering me, going back to the other thread on speed training. I guess I’ll learn. Back to the subject of the half — I was hoping for 9-minute miles. I did a race pace calculator at runners world, based on my 5K race time, and it thinks I can run 8:30. Ha ha. That must be for actually fast people — I have a feeling that formula doesn’t apply to slow people.
Yeah those formulas are a little off for some of us. One of the results of a fitness test I took last Friday suggested that I should be able to run 5Ks at 6:40 instead of the 9:15 I did at the last event. The tester (who ran in the same event) spewed her bottled water. Maggie, you’ll do just fine in the 1/2. We’re both in the "reaching" phase – reaching to find our limits. Enjoy that sucker 1/2 and kick some butt. Layne
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Question:
I’m looking for a PC based software package. I’m not sure whether I need a small or mid-range product, so I will list some requirements and hopefully get some feedback: Requirements: – Only need general ledger – Multiuser – Will be installed on up to 8 PC’s. 2 or 3 will use it concurrently on a regular basis. – Must be able to import transactions from an external file – Must be able to handle a transaction volume of around 6000 transactions per month – Must be able to handle balances up to and including a billion dollars – Must have good customized reporting and/or ODBC driver or report writer I have looked at PeachTree and it looks like it would be perfect, except the transaction volume may be a little heavy. Thanks for your help! Jerry Dunn
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What will your General Ledger Account Structure look like? Mid-range packages like Accpac allow for flexible as well as large account numbers with up to 10 segments. The requirements you listed below screams out mid-range not low end.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for a PC based software package. I’m not sure whether I need a small or mid-range product, so I will list some requirements and hopefully get some feedback: Requirements: – Only need general ledger – Multiuser – Will be installed on up to 8 PC’s. 2 or 3 will use it concurrently on a regular basis. – Must be able to import transactions from an external file – Must be able to handle a transaction volume of around 6000 transactions per month – Must be able to handle balances up to and including a billion dollars – Must have good customized reporting and/or ODBC driver or report writer I have looked at PeachTree and it looks like it would be perfect, except the transaction volume may be a little heavy. Thanks for your help! Jerry Dunn
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Generally, I’d reccomend something like ACCPAC Pro for the number of users you have. Peachtree would probably work for a year or two and then bog down as volumn built up and concurent users went up. Still Peachtree would be the best of the low ends if money is really important. Bill Couture
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The chart of accounts will be small – a total of around 50 accounts. One other requirement is the ability to set up multiple companies. We will be adding a new company (with the same chart of accounts) each quarter. –Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What will your General Ledger Account Structure look like? Mid-range packages like Accpac allow for flexible as well as large account numbers with up to 10 segments. The requirements you listed below screams out mid-range not low end. I’m looking for a PC based software package. I’m not sure whether I need a small or mid-range product, so I will list some requirements and hopefully get some feedback: Requirements: – Only need general ledger – Multiuser – Will be installed on up to 8 PC’s. 2 or 3 will use it concurrently on a regular basis. – Must be able to import transactions from an external file – Must be able to handle a transaction volume of around 6000 transactions per month – Must be able to handle balances up to and including a billion dollars – Must have good customized reporting and/or ODBC driver or report writer I have looked at PeachTree and it looks like it would be perfect, except the transaction volume may be a little heavy. Thanks for your help! Jerry Dunn
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Market Leaders. Look at the list of them at http://www.ctsguides.com (No, I don’t work here or benefit from the link) -wayne http://www.s-consult.com MAS90 , MAS200 and Accounting Software Consulting MAS90 Newsletter http://www.s-consult.com/starinfo/q401/email.htm
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Will you have the need to product Financial Statements from the package that you are looking at? If you need to produce IAS / AC101 compliant statements the 50 accounts will probably not be enough to account for all the required disclosure. Given the numbers that you mentioned this may be a requirement for you? The company that I am with (FRS – Financial Reporting Solutions) produces a system that has a general ledger system in it. It has a very powerful accounting engine in the product, and can automate the production of financial statements for you. If you are interested in looking at it let me know. Regards Richard
The chart of accounts will be small – a total of around 50 accounts. One other requirement is the ability to set up multiple companies. We will be adding a new company (with the same chart of accounts) each quarter. –Jerry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What will your General Ledger Account Structure look like? Mid-range packages like Accpac allow for flexible as well as large account numbers with up to 10 segments. The requirements you listed below screams out mid-range not low end. I’m looking for a PC based software package. I’m not sure whether I need a small or mid-range product, so I will list some requirements and hopefully get some feedback: Requirements: – Only need general ledger – Multiuser – Will be installed on up to 8 PC’s. 2 or 3 will use it concurrently on a regular basis. – Must be able to import transactions from an external file – Must be able to handle a transaction volume of around 6000 transactions per month – Must be able to handle balances up to and including a billion dollars – Must have good customized reporting and/or ODBC driver or report writer I have looked at PeachTree and it looks like it would be perfect, except the transaction volume may be a little heavy. Thanks for your help! Jerry Dunn
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I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back, I was browsing through bulletin boards, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars WITHIN WEEKS with only an initial investment of $6.00(US)! So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: "What have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00(US), right?" Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!?… Within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00(US). By the end of the second week, I had made a total of over $1,100.00(US)! In the third week I had over $8,750.00 and it’s still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $17,000.00 and it’s still coming in rapidly. It’s certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, WHY it works… Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy! KEEP READING TO FIND OUT HOW THIS WORKS!!! Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (Print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It’s easy. It’s legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage on only 6 envelopes…one time only…no repeat mailing) IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; No Misleading promises or claims; it is not illegal; and it is 99% no risk – it really works! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends. JUST KEEP READING!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from people like you and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal. 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Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select ‘copy’ from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computer’s memory. Step 2) Open a blank ‘notepad’ file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the ‘edit’ menu select ‘paste’. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different settings, you’ll always have this file to go back to. 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Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual Internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. GOOD LUCK!!!
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Question:
See the pics if you’d like at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/michael.html He’s a great boy!
Damn! He’s a cute little guy. I want to hug him. Great last picture there of you two sleeping! BWB
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OK Bill! Back on the thorazine and ant poison. Warren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a boy! Yes, we’re back from Ukraine with a son. Michael Yuri Romanko, 22 months old, and a lover of aviation (four flights under his belt already)! See the pics if you’d like at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/michael.html He’s a great boy! I’m very happy for you. I am one of the people here in the U.S. who smiles when I write out my income tax check (which I did today). I’m proud to support the national highway system, the air traffic control system, the national parks, a strong nuclear defense and more freedom than anywhere else in the world. It’s all you others who support the welfare system, the prisons and all the illegal aliens. My money goes to the good stuff! I wrote a check today that was bigger than my yearly salary most of my life…and that was after paying my quarterlies and with-holdings last year too. I just hope I get to pay more next year!!! Success here in America is gauged on how much tax you pay. I wish I paid a $million a year! I wish I paid $10 million a year! Bedwetter Bill
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Congtats Bob. You’ll love it…ya even end up spending the airplane money on toys 22 months…hummm…he’s almost old enough to help with the rib stitching. (I started my oldest helping hold things on the Piet when he was about 28 months.–watching the kids is as much fun as the building) Mike
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a boy! Yes, we’re back from Ukraine with a son. Michael Yuri Romanko, 22 months old, and a lover of aviation (four flights under his belt already)! See the pics if you’d like at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/michael.html He’s a great boy! Folks, it’s great to be back in the good ‘ol USofA! Many complain about our government here, but you really need to go to Eastern Europe once in a while to appreciate what we have. I think the difference is as Americans some of us complain, and then make the effort to actually try to FIX things. Other countries sometimes forget to take that important second step. The aviation report of Ukraine is that there isn’t any. Other than commercial flying, I saw NO signs of GA whatsoever. None. Our translator found it hard to believe that people in America can build and fly their own airplanes. It was just beyond comprehension for her. I had to show her pictures of my other son, Alexander, and I sitting in the Bearhawk to prove it to her. There’s just NO money there for such things. A typical salary there is only about $50 or so a month. Not good. It would take a long, long time to build a Bearhawk on that salary! I haven’t hit the shop yet to continue bending ribs. Between getting settled in with our new family of four and getting over the jet lag, it will probably be a few more days until I get out there. I’d like to thank the folks who sent me emails with their good wishes and prayers. Foreign adoption can be quite an adventure, and we certainly had our share of ups and downs. Our first son, Alexander, was adopted from Russia three years ago. You can see his pics at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/alexander.html He’s a great kid too, and a true blessing. Loves to fly, and he asks me to take him up nearly every day. I’ll have him polishing ribs this weekend. Not bad for a 3 1/2 year old. He’ll be cutitng the grass before I know it! Again, thanks for the many kind words. If any of you folks have any questions about adopting from Russia or Ukraine, my inbox is open. It’s a rollercoaster ride, but a very rewarding one Bob "New Daddy Again" Romanko High-Time "Stick and Rudder" Reader Builder Bearhawk #399 PP-ASEL, A&P, AOPA, EAA Based at Charlottesville, VA (CHO)
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Way ta go Bob! — Richard Lamb — http://www.flash.net/~lamb01
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Outstanding! Got yourself a nice family going, Bob. Cheers! – A JYO
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: : : : : Congratulations mate! The little feller looks great! Good onya. The poor little tykes got an ugly dad though, jeez. — Cheers, Herdy. (Jon Herd) http://members.xoom.com/jdherd
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : : : Congratulations mate! The little feller looks great! Good onya. The poor little tykes got an ugly dad though, jeez. — Cheers, Herdy. (Jon Herd) http://members.xoom.com/jdherd
You have me on that on, Herdy…but his momma DOES make up for it, don’t you think (grin)? Bob
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Thanks, Stephen. He’s a special guy! What a joy it’s been since we’ve been back in our own home with him. The family’s doing great. We need another RAS/RAH BBQ soon, don’t you think? Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re a very special person Bob…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html I live to learn as I learn to live… [snip]
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Thanks, Bruce. It’s a foreign adoption is such a wonderful experience! My only wish is that more folks would do it. I saw a room of about 14 kids, every bit as beautiful as our Michael. Tough not to take them all! Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob, Your pictures bring tears to my eyes. You and your wife are truely great people. Sincerely, Bruce A. Frank
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a boy! Yes, we’re back from Ukraine with a son. Michael Yuri Romanko, 22 months old, and a lover of aviation (four flights under his belt already)! See the pics if you’d like at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/michael.html He’s a great boy! I’m very happy for you. I am one of the people here in the U.S. who smiles when I write out my income tax check (which I did today). I’m proud to support the national highway system, the air traffic control system, the national parks, a strong nuclear defense and more freedom than anywhere else in the world. It’s all you others who support the welfare system, the prisons and all the illegal aliens. My money goes to the good stuff! I wrote a check today that was bigger than my yearly salary most of my life…and that was after paying my quarterlies and with-holdings last year too. I just hope I get to pay more next year!!! Success here in America is gauged on how much tax you pay. I wish I paid a $million a year! I wish I paid $10 million a year! Bedwetter Bill
Bill: Actually, you hit the nail on the head. Our taxes DO help our country more than most imagine. Roads, communications, energy, etc… Paying taxes is not fun, but I’ve been all over the world (as you have), and I can say with total confidence, here in the US of A we have the absolute best infrastructure of any nation, and it’s because of two things: free enterprise (capitalism), and the taxes we pay. Business and government doing their best for the good of the tax-paying public. To be honest, I’d like to pay a $million in taxes a year as well (grin)! Regards, Bob
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What a joy it’s been since we’ve been back in our own home with him. The family’s doing great.
God bless you & yours, Bob… I mean, even more than He already has! We’ve missed your common sense around here (not to mention your A&P experience) whilst you were out handling more important priorities! Welcome back. cheers -=K=-
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Thanks, Bruce. It’s a foreign adoption is such a wonderful experience! My only wish is that more folks would do it. I saw a room of about 14 kids, every bit as beautiful as our Michael. Tough not to take them all!
One of the accountants at my old firm adopted two Russian kids, and said the selfsame thing. Makes me feel guilty for not being able to keep a woman around long enough to give some poor kid a home! I have to settle for being the corrupting uncle. Hint: don’t ever give your screaming-liberal sister-in-law’s kid back smelling of cordite, asking if we can’t have pizza EVERY night like Uncle Kevin does, and telling tales of aerial derring-do. cheers -=K=-
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Congratulations mate! The little feller looks great! Good onya. The poor little tykes got an ugly dad though, jeez. Herdy. (Jon Herd) You have me on that on, Herdy…but his momma DOES make up for it, don’t you think (grin)?
I wasn’t gonna mention it, Bob, but you could be as ugly as the whole RAH 15 combined, and that gorgeous woman who married you would *still* more than balance it out (don’t get her that laser eye surgery or she may see what she got herself into). That kid is truly beautiful, Bob. What a lucky couple the two of you are!
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Hint: don’t ever give your screaming-liberal sister-in-law’s kid back smelling of cordite, asking if we can’t have pizza EVERY night like Uncle Kevin does, and telling tales of aerial derring-do.
You sayin’ you should just KEEP the little tyke? Hey, that WOULD save a trip to eastern Yurrup, a whole lotta money, and just might keep the kid from believing CNN. Mark Hickey
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You sayin’ you should just KEEP the little tyke?
Naw, you just have to indoctrinate the kid before the schools can. Schools only have the kid for six hours a day and you can inculcate your own values if you try (after all that’s what happens in the inner cities, the kids get imbued with values that are different from what we wuld have the schools teach them). Latest thing in my area is teachers asking the kids whether the parents own any guns or not, and entering this information into the kids’ files at school. Next I suppose they will want to know what books and mags one subscribes to. My friend’s seven year old to her dad: ‘I didn’t tell them ANYTHING dad… did I do the right thing?’ It has been very painful to her to realise that the school is trying to turn her against her parents and indoctrinate her politically… I remember going through the same painful process of discovery although I was a bit older. I think she’s brighter than I, more precocious at any rate. Or maybe the indoctrination is just more blatant. There is a new programme in North Carolina called ‘Wave’ that’s run (at a profit) by Pinkerton, it pays kids in cash and prizes for turning in their classmates, for whatever. Don’t like the weird kid that sits in the back by himself sketching B-17s? Rat him out, he’s a ticking time bomb. Only in America could we recreate the Stasi* and find a way to make money at it. How many of us aeroplane builders were a bit eccentric in grammar school? Show of hands? just might keep the kid from believing CNN.
CNN used to be really hard news oriented. I remember watching their coverage of the Challenger disaster, and the Italian Frecce Tricolori crash at Ramstein (four months later I flew into there and there was still a huge scorch mark on the runway… horrible reminder). Both of those were handled in a thorough and fair manner. Nowadays they wouldn’t be. They’d be more likely to get say Mary Schiavo, who thinks that aeroplanes are held up by Flubber, to be their talking head, than say James Nance or somebody with his head out of his fourth point of contact. One comment I make a lot is that the more one knows about a speciality, the more one is irritated with the reporting of it in the media, yet we all assume that they’re getting the subjects we DON’T understand right. cheers -=K=- * Stasi = East German secret police – probably the world’s record at getting people to spy on one another. Almost a third of the people in the nation were signed up as informers, and 80% of them had files. A sore point with me as I have a Stasi file (I used to trade av books & mags, and model aeroplanes, with an East German guy) and can’t see it, as I’m not a German citizen. Apparently the Stasi concluded that I was a fictitious creation of US intelligence and my poor modeller buddy was one of my agents. Shows spooks everywhere watch too much bad TV!
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Again, thanks for the many kind words. If any of you folks have any questions about adopting from Russia or Ukraine, my inbox is open. It’s a rollercoaster ride, but a very rewarding one Bob "New Daddy Again" Romanko High-Time "Stick and Rudder" Reader Builder Bearhawk #399 PP-ASEL, A&P, AOPA, EAA Based at Charlottesville, VA (CHO)
I’m grinnin’ ear to ear for you!! You’re in for the most fun of your life. — mike regish PP-ASEL http://people.ne.mediaone.net/mregish
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Bob, Your pictures bring tears to my eyes. You and your wife are truely great people. Sincerely, Bruce A. Frank
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It’s a boy! Yes, we’re back from Ukraine with a son. Michael Yuri Romanko, 22 months old, and a lover of aviation (four flights under his belt already)! See the pics if you’d like at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/michael.html He’s a great boy!
I’m very happy for you. I am one of the people here in the U.S. who smiles when I write out my income tax check (which I did today). I’m proud to support the national highway system, the air traffic control system, the national parks, a strong nuclear defense and more freedom than anywhere else in the world. It’s all you others who support the welfare system, the prisons and all the illegal aliens. My money goes to the good stuff! I wrote a check today that was bigger than my yearly salary most of my life…and that was after paying my quarterlies and with-holdings last year too. I just hope I get to pay more next year!!! Success here in America is gauged on how much tax you pay. I wish I paid a $million a year! I wish I paid $10 million a year! Bedwetter Bill
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You’re a very special person Bob…Fly safe… Blue skies, St Stephen Ames PP-ASEL N16402 PA-28-180 My flying site: http://www.stephenames.com/flying/flying.html I live to learn as I learn to live…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a boy! Yes, we’re back from Ukraine with a son. Michael Yuri Romanko, 22 months old, and a lover of aviation (four flights under his belt already)! See the pics if you’d like at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/michael.html He’s a great boy! Folks, it’s great to be back in the good ‘ol USofA! Many complain about our government here, but you really need to go to Eastern Europe once in a while to appreciate what we have. I think the difference is as Americans some of us complain, and then make the effort to actually try to FIX things. Other countries sometimes forget to take that important second step. The aviation report of Ukraine is that there isn’t any. Other than commercial flying, I saw NO signs of GA whatsoever. None. Our translator found it hard to believe that people in America can build and fly their own airplanes. It was just beyond comprehension for her. I had to show her pictures of my other son, Alexander, and I sitting in the Bearhawk to prove it to her. There’s just NO money there for such things. A typical salary there is only about $50 or so a month. Not good. It would take a long, long time to build a Bearhawk on that salary! I haven’t hit the shop yet to continue bending ribs. Between getting settled in with our new family of four and getting over the jet lag, it will probably be a few more days until I get out there. I’d like to thank the folks who sent me emails with their good wishes and prayers. Foreign adoption can be quite an adventure, and we certainly had our share of ups and downs. Our first son, Alexander, was adopted from Russia three years ago. You can see his pics at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/alexander.html He’s a great kid too, and a true blessing. Loves to fly, and he asks me to take him up nearly every day. I’ll have him polishing ribs this weekend. Not bad for a 3 1/2 year old. He’ll be cutitng the grass before I know it! Again, thanks for the many kind words. If any of you folks have any questions about adopting from Russia or Ukraine, my inbox is open. It’s a rollercoaster ride, but a very rewarding one Bob "New Daddy Again" Romanko High-Time "Stick and Rudder" Reader Builder Bearhawk #399 PP-ASEL, A&P, AOPA, EAA Based at Charlottesville, VA (CHO)
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It’s a boy! Yes, we’re back from Ukraine with a son. Michael Yuri Romanko, 22 months old, and a lover of aviation (four flights under his belt already)! See the pics if you’d like at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/michael.html He’s a great boy! Folks, it’s great to be back in the good ‘ol USofA! Many complain about our government here, but you really need to go to Eastern Europe once in a while to appreciate what we have. I think the difference is as Americans some of us complain, and then make the effort to actually try to FIX things. Other countries sometimes forget to take that important second step. The aviation report of Ukraine is that there isn’t any. Other than commercial flying, I saw NO signs of GA whatsoever. None. Our translator found it hard to believe that people in America can build and fly their own airplanes. It was just beyond comprehension for her. I had to show her pictures of my other son, Alexander, and I sitting in the Bearhawk to prove it to her. There’s just NO money there for such things. A typical salary there is only about $50 or so a month. Not good. It would take a long, long time to build a Bearhawk on that salary! I haven’t hit the shop yet to continue bending ribs. Between getting settled in with our new family of four and getting over the jet lag, it will probably be a few more days until I get out there. I’d like to thank the folks who sent me emails with their good wishes and prayers. Foreign adoption can be quite an adventure, and we certainly had our share of ups and downs. Our first son, Alexander, was adopted from Russia three years ago. You can see his pics at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rr3d/alexander.html He’s a great kid too, and a true blessing. Loves to fly, and he asks me to take him up nearly every day. I’ll have him polishing ribs this weekend. Not bad for a 3 1/2 year old. He’ll be cutitng the grass before I know it! Again, thanks for the many kind words. If any of you folks have any questions about adopting from Russia or Ukraine, my inbox is open. It’s a rollercoaster ride, but a very rewarding one Bob "New Daddy Again" Romanko High-Time "Stick and Rudder" Reader Builder Bearhawk #399 PP-ASEL, A&P, AOPA, EAA Based at Charlottesville, VA (CHO)
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