Question:

Thanks!  Yeah.  We were still married December 31 of 2003. Yeah.  What a dink.  My x-husband wanted us to stay married until March just so we could file as married.  I’m all ‘No thanks.  I have no desire to cheat the IRS.’ I question if we can do it, how am I even supposed to sign the paperwork? I’m in Canada and him in the US.  I don’t suppose that occured to him. Yeah.  As if.  That would require him to use his brain.

US and Canada share tax info (in cases like this) and have a treaty about same. If you are even slightly squeamish about tackling this on your own I would suggest you seek tax advice and/or service from a pro… It may be $30.00-$50.00 well spent! Ask around and make sure they understand US and Canadian tax laws. I was lucky in that when I was married to an American she did not have landed status so she was classed as a visitor and was employed in the US… so we filled individually in our separate countries. John

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I just emailed my x-husband about income tax crap.  He promised me some money you see when he gets his return. Anyways, he says we should file together because we were married in 2003.  Is that right?

If you file jointly since you were married, the refund check should be made out to BOTH of you.  So if you don;t sign it, he’d have to forge it to cash it.  Seems like you’d have a little leverage there.   "Sure, former dear, hand me 1/2 the check in cash and I’ll sign it over to you."

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I would suggest you seek tax advice and/or service from a pro… It may be $30.00-$50.00 well spent!

$30 or $50? Dream on, dude. Best – Fido, CPA

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I think he was thinking about those fake tax accountants at H&R Block. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would suggest you seek tax advice and/or service from a pro… It may be $30.00-$50.00 well spent! $30 or $50? Dream on, dude. Best – Fido, CPA

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If you file jointly since you were married, the refund check should be made out to BOTH of you.  So if you don’t sign it, he’d have to forge it to cash it.  <snip

… which is not unheard of.  She could charge him, but the money is already gone. But these days, he need not forge anything.  All he needs to do is use his bank’s routing and account # for a direct deposit.  The IRS won’t know its not a joint account & nothing’s forged.  I suggest that she get a promissory note from him for the part of the refund that she is due.  [Rog']

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I would suggest you seek tax advice and/or service from a pro… It may be $30.00-$50.00 well spent! $30 or $50? Dream on, dude.

I can have mine done for $35.00, my parents have both theirs done for $50.00 (they have use the same accountant for years). Maybe it costs more elsewhere, I can only go by what I know… John

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Good call.  I will do that.  I don’t even know if he will agree to giving me half of the tax return but if he wants me to go to this trouble then he had better.  Besides he owes me money anyways so I’m due damnit.  Grrrrrr. Playin’  :-) I don’t have any reason to believe that he wouldn’t screw me over because he has been good about the money stuff so far.  On the other hand, this is the same man who swore to be with me forever and lasted eleven months.  Oh yeah, and said ‘I swear that I will never hurt you Karen.’  Ummm…yeah.  Damn right I will get a promissory note. Thanks all! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But these days, he need not forge anything.  All he needs to do is use his bank’s routing and account # for a direct deposit.  The IRS won’t know its not a joint account & nothing’s forged.  I suggest that she get a promissory note from him for the part of the refund that she is due.  [Rog']

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I was planning to file separately but married. Why not do that? Joe MB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks!  Yeah.  We were still married December 31 of 2003. Yeah.  What a dink.  My x-husband wanted us to stay married until March just so we could file as married.  I’m all ‘No thanks.  I have no desire to cheat the IRS.’ I question if we can do it, how am I even supposed to sign the paperwork? I’m in Canada and him in the US.  I don’t suppose that occured to him. Yeah.  As if.  That would require him to use his brain. Peace Do not sign a tax return with him if you know it is false. You can file separately even if you are married. I am not sure if you are even allowed to file jointly if yo are divorced, but in any case, stay clear of the IRS wrath and file only honest tax returns, preferably without anyone who may be cheating on a joint return. i

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I was planning to file separately but married. Why not do that?

1.  Becuz you have it backwards… its "married filing separately"     (according to the IRS). 2.  The tax burden on those filing jointly is usually lower.  [Rog']

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It might be worth it–when she says "I need you to do my taxes again this year as always" I can say "Oh, I already filed." Hell no I ain’t above it! –Joe Micro – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was planning to file separately but married. Why not do that? 1.  Becuz you have it backwards… its "married filing separately"     (according to the IRS). 2.  The tax burden on those filing jointly is usually lower.  [Rog']

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I was planning to file separately but married. Why not do that? 1.  Becuz you have it backwards… its "married filing separately"     (according to the IRS). 2.  The tax burden on those filing jointly is usually lower.  [Rog']

The first year after we were separated my ex (the tax writer) handed my stuff back on April 14th with the news that I would have to file separately. Filing jointly, we would get a $2,000 refund. Filing separate, she got $3,000 back and I owed $5,000.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was planning to file separately but married. Why not do that? 1.  Becuz you have it backwards… its "married filing separately"     (according to the IRS). 2.  The tax burden on those filing jointly is usually lower.  [Rog'] The first year after we were separated my ex (the tax writer) handed my stuff back on April 14th with the news that I would have to file separately. Filing jointly, we would get a $2,000 refund. Filing separate, she got $3,000 back and I owed $5,000.

I suppose, then, that there was nothing in the separation agreement specifying the filing status, or the disposition of the refund (or liability).  My condolances. Folks who are writing up separation agreements may want to consider such a clause (along with who gets to claim the children as exemptions). My ex and I waited for January for the actual divorce in order to file jointly that one last time, and we agreed to split the bottom line (refund or liability) 50/50.  I count myself fortunate for having had a reasonably amicable separation. — Jack in NJ

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The first year after we were separated my ex (the tax writer) handed my stuff back on April 14th with the news that I would have to file separately. Filing jointly, we would get a $2,000 refund. Filing separate, she got $3,000 back and I owed $5,000.

My ex and I always cooperated on money matters. The tax clause in our separation agreement: For any year in which we could do so, we would file a joint return and our respective payments or refunds would be determined by dividing the total tax amount by the ratio of our respective incomes, then deducting the tax withheld (prepaid) by each from those sums to determine the amount over or underpaid by each.  Individually, one party may owe more and the other may be due a refund.  In such a case, the party who owed more would first pay IRS any tax due and the balance to the party who overpaid.  [Rog']

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The first year after we were separated my ex (the tax writer) handed my stuff back on April 14th with the news that I would have to file separately. Filing jointly, we would get a $2,000 refund. Filing separate, she got $3,000 back and I owed $5,000. I suppose, then, that there was nothing in the separation agreement specifying the filing status, or the disposition of the refund (or liability).  My condolances.

I probably will file separately because: 1) She’s self-employed (and has a supplemental low paying part time job) and will owe money at the end of the year. 2) I have a regular job with a bit extra self-employed income on top, and will get a refund. 3) I’m through being extra nice 4) there is no separation agreement because she has dragged her feet and delayed and screwed around 5) And when I get the refund I’m going to split it with her anyway, because that seems like the right thing to do. Joe "just nice, not extra nice" Micro Brew

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"Rambler" wrote… From what you said above, Roger, it seems that if in a given year you were making all of the money, you’d be paying all the tax. <snip … it would seem to say that, since I earned it, I should be responsible for the tax.  However, she also benefited from my earnings in that it supplied her with a lifestyle that she otherwise wouldn’t have been able to. Now, since it was "our" money, shouldn’t she be responsible, equally, for the  tax on it.  If it’s paid, it’s paid, and it was paid out of the joint funds, but if it is not paid, well then … what sayest ye on that?  I mean, legally, morally and ethically, she be able to walk?

Legally, I don’t think that she could be held liable for tax that you owe on your income (unless she signs your return).  But morally and ethically, she ought to pay a portion of the tax burden to the extent that she spent your income on herself. My ex also spent a lot of my income for her lifestyle, but the reason we used the ratio of our incomes was not legal, morals or ethics, just that, since we both had tax withheld from our pay, proportionately, a "from each according to their abilities" approach seemed to work best.

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Hey All, I just emailed my x-husband about income tax crap.  He promised me some money you see when he gets his return.  Anyways, he says we should file together because we were married in 2003.  Is that right?  Its him who will be cheating the IRS I suppose and not me but is that cheating them or is that technically right since we were married in 2003?  I just want to be sure is all.  Works for me because we’ll get more money back and therefore I’ll actually get some well deserved $$$ from him but I just don’t know if thats technically okay. Any help would be great. Thanks

Karen, I’m certainly not a tax expert of any sort, so your mileage may vary…. But I suspect that the question really boils down to "Did you, personally, work and earn money during that tax year?"  If you did, then you would be required to file a return with the US IRS.  That return could be either a joint return with your ex or a separate return filed only by yourself, but a return must be filed with your name on it.  Now, otoh, if you did *not* earn money during that tax year, you are *not* required to file.  Your ex-husband (assuming he worked and earned money) would have to file, though.  And he *could* file jointly (with your name on the return) if the two of you were married during the tax period.  His reasons for doing this would be that the total tax bill would probably be lower than if he filed separately. Cheers! rj

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Hey All, I just emailed my x-husband about income tax crap.  He promised me some money you see when he gets his return.  Anyways, he says we should file together because we were married in 2003.  Is that right?  Its him who will be cheating the IRS I suppose and not me but is that cheating them or is that technically right since we were married in 2003?  I just want to be sure is all.  Works for me because we’ll get more money back and therefore I’ll actually get some well deserved $$$ from him but I just don’t know if thats technically okay. Any help would be great. Thanks

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Hey All, I just emailed my x-husband about income tax crap.  He promised me some money you see when he gets his return.  Anyways, he says we should file together because we were married in 2003.  Is that right?

Were you still married to him on Dec. 31, 2003?  If so, you file as "married", and you may choose to file either "jointly" or "separately". If you were divorced by Dec. 31, 2003, you cannot file as "married" (unless you married someone else by Dec. 31, 2003). http://www.irs.gov/publications/p501/ar02.html#d0e974 :   Divorced persons.   If you are divorced under a final decree by the last day of the year,   you are considered unmarried for the whole year. Best wishes. — Jack in NJ

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Thanks!  Yeah.  We were still married December 31 of 2003. Yeah.  What a dink.  My x-husband wanted us to stay married until March just so we could file as married.  I’m all ‘No thanks.  I have no desire to cheat the IRS.’ I question if we can do it, how am I even supposed to sign the paperwork? I’m in Canada and him in the US.  I don’t suppose that occured to him. Yeah.  As if.  That would require him to use his brain. Peace

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do not sign a tax return with him if you know it is false. You can file separately even if you are married. I am not sure if you are even allowed to file jointly if yo are divorced, but in any case, stay clear of the IRS wrath and file only honest tax returns, preferably without anyone who may be cheating on a joint return. i

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I just emailed my x-husband about income tax crap.  He promised me some money you see when he gets his return. Anyways, he says we should file together because we were married in 2003.  Is that right?

In 1999, I was pleased that our final hearing was on 12/23. Pleased not about the divorce, but the timing.  Since we were not married to each other on 12/31, we would be considered unmarried and _could not_ file jointly. My taxes were higher, but at least I would not have to deal with sharing a payment or a refund. However, there were dividends, interest and capital gains on joint accts which had my SSN, so I had to report them on my return.  My ex agreed to pay a prorated share of the tax on those items… it wasn’t much.  [Rog']

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Karen said… Thanks!  Yeah.  We were still married December 31 of 2003. Yeah.  What a dink.  My x-husband wanted us to stay married until March just so we could file as married.  I’m all ‘No thanks.  I have no desire to cheat the IRS.’

If you were legally married on Dec 31 you’re not cheating.   You’d be cheating if you lied about your marital status. I question if we can do it, how am I even supposed to sign the paperwork? I’m in Canada and him in the US.  I don’t suppose that occured to him. Yeah.  As if.  That would require him to use his brain.

Mail, UPS, FedEx… any of those will work.  Mail to you, you sign, mail back to him or to the IRS.  He’ll probably think of this idea. Casey We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

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Thanks!  Yeah.  We were still married December 31 of 2003. Yeah.  What a dink.  My x-husband wanted us to stay married until March just so we could file as married.  I’m all ‘No thanks.  I have no desire to cheat the IRS.’ I question if we can do it, how am I even supposed to sign the paperwork?  I’m in Canada and him in the US.  I don’t suppose that occured to him…. That would require him to use his brain.

I detect a touch of sarcasm.  If he agreed to provde a notarized affidavit stating that: 1. he has reported all taxable income and that all deductions are fully supported and will provide proof of same upon request, 2. he will pay any exepenses (including attorneys or accountant fees) and any penalties or interests that may be incurred or assessed as a result of any error or omission, or an IRS audit, and 3. he acknowledges your claim to a portion of any refund and will not deposit, cash or assign it without your prior approval… Then, I’d consider signing a joint return.  And Fed-X the papers. [Rog']

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It’s not cheating the IRS if all you’re doing is taking advantage of the married status.  Of course you have to be married as of 12/31/2003, though.  Why would you want to be taxed more than your fair share anyway? As for signing the return, he can sign first, then mail it to you…perfectly legit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks!  Yeah.  We were still married December 31 of 2003. Yeah.  What a dink.  My x-husband wanted us to stay married until March just so we could file as married.  I’m all ‘No thanks.  I have no desire to cheat the IRS.’ I question if we can do it, how am I even supposed to sign the paperwork? I’m in Canada and him in the US.  I don’t suppose that occured to him. Yeah.  As if.  That would require him to use his brain. Peace Do not sign a tax return with him if you know it is false. You can file separately even if you are married. I am not sure if you are even allowed to file jointly if yo are divorced, but in any case, stay clear of the IRS wrath and file only honest tax returns, preferably without anyone who may be cheating on a joint return. i

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Question:

I may have this confused with another post, but here goes. Valuating a business for a divorce is a nightmare. Judges HATE it. It often costs more to get an honest appraisal than what you "might" gain. I gave up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done? I am also looking for some support – those of you who are done with your mess, was there anything that you mistakenly left out – if so, can that one portion be opened up? Why doesn’t he get into trouble with all these contempt charges, he lied on his financial, and now this, will he get any kind of repercussions at all??? I can’t really say what I mean (the ambien kicked in FAST ) but I hope you can get at least some sort of a  clue as to what I need…. any advice?

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I’m coming into this thread a bit late, Christi, but it seems to me that a settlement agreement would have to have it spelled out, and not left hanging. Doesn’t that make sense to you.  Try to stand back, and look at from the legal point of view.  JMO though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Thank you all for your support – I feel better since someone actually ANSWERED me : ) First, my stbx is in contempt because the judge ordered him to have all the paperwork in to the appraisers by July 16 – he just turned it in to them on August 6 – so I have been trying to get the damn thing appraised – My money is paid and currently in escrow… Second, my lawyer knows all about this, and I do have an appt. with her on Tues or Wed. (my book is downstairs) – I am definitely going to push for NOT signing anything pertaining to the business, if I can…. Now, can the judge keep one part of the divorce open? If we agree on everything else (yeah, picture THAT with a Kodak!) but the business, can we just keep the business portion of the divorce open?  I KNOW this judge wants the case done and over with (like I don’t) and I fear he is going to push for an agreement – can I refuse with no repercussions? I certainly don’t want to end up in jail because of my stbx’s neglect in following the judges order in the first place…..    I should be HAPPY thi is almost over – truthfully, I am scared to DEATH that I am going to get screwed (and not in a good way) just because this judge wants to close the case….. sigh :::: — Christi Stampin’ Up! Representative Art Without Anxiety www.ArtWithoutAnxiety.com ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^< I may have this confused with another post, but here goes. Valuating a business for a divorce is a nightmare. Judges HATE it. It often costs more to get an honest appraisal than what you "might" gain. I gave up. x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done? I am also looking for some support – those of you who are done with your mess, was there anything that you mistakenly left out – if so, can that one portion be opened up? Why doesn’t he get into trouble with all these contempt charges, he lied on his financial, and now this, will he get any kind of repercussions at all??? I can’t really say what I mean (the ambien kicked in FAST ) but I hope you can get at least some sort of a  clue as to what I need…. any advice?

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Christi, You will survive this.  The judge and the courts don’t want to waste time if someone hasn’t done their part in preparing for court.  The judge will see that he wasn’t prepared.  Make sure you have a good lawyer.  One that looks out for what is best for you.  ALso, if there are kids involved, what is best for the kids.   Susan

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I’m coming into this thread a bit late, Christi, but it seems to me that a settlement agreement would have to have it spelled out, and not left hanging.  Doesn’t that make sense to you.  Try to stand back, and look at from the legal point of view.  JMO though. Wow, an on topic, helpful post from Bill!!!

It must be the drugs…..ummm, I meant meds…

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You don’t have to agree to anything.  Just say, "I don’t agree."  The judge cannot require you to settle, but it is possible that he could think that you are obstructionist in a matter where who-is-cooperative could make a difference: Child custody and support.  Ask your lawyer. Judges in Florida ~can~ bifurcate a divorce proceeding by granting the divorce and holding a separate trial on all other issues.  Not sure about yours.  You need to ask your lawyer. [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you all for your support – I feel better since someone actually ANSWERED me : ) First, my stbx is in contempt because the judge ordered him to have all the paperwork in to the appraisers by July 16 – he just turned it in to them on August 6 – so I have been trying to get the damn thing appraised – My money is paid and currently in escrow… Second, my lawyer knows all about this, and I do have an appt. with her on Tues or Wed. (my book is downstairs) – I am definitely going to push for NOT signing anything pertaining to the business, if I can…. Now, can the judge keep one part of the divorce open? If we agree on everything else (yeah, picture THAT with a Kodak!) but the business, can we just keep the business portion of the divorce open?  I KNOW this judge wants the case done and over with (like I don’t) and I fear he is going to push for an agreement – can I refuse with no repercussions? I certainly don’t want to end up in jail because of my stbx’s neglect in following the judges order in the first place…..    I should be HAPPY thi is almost over – truthfully, I am scared to DEATH that I am going to get screwed (and not in a good way) just because this judge wants to close the case…..

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x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium?

Maybe a Xanax?  (just kidding) My situation was so different that i don’t have any advice.   But if you need a shoulder to cry on or a really dumb joke to give you a respite from worrying, let me know.  

Response:

I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done?

Judges like to push for agreements — it helps get them to the golf course b4 the sun goes down.  They also like to close files.  So the Judge could make his/her own decision as to the value of the business based on the testimony presented, even though your s2bx stonewalled.  I would hope that your lawyer has subpoenaed the business’ accountants, tax preparers, records custodian and any piece of paper that may pertain to its value.  Time is woefully short. Check with him on Monday.  [R]

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Well – simply refuse to sign any and all paperwork, holding up the divorce until he does what he is susposed to do. OR talk to your lawyer about this. Deb

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These are issues you need to confront your attorney about. How can you tell what is an equitable settlement without all values in front of you? Make an appointment to sit down and talk to your attorney face to face and get your questions answered. You should know the value of the business, so why don’t you? Why wasn’t a valuation done? Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes I posted this a while back and NO ONE answered me ::sniff, sniff:: can anyone offer me a clue? or a little advice? how about a valium? Seems that we have a date to get divorced – August 14 & 15 – my witnesses will be there on the 15th. I’m confused and concerned because my stbx defied the court order to get certain paperwork to the appraisers, so we could have the appraisal done – the deadline was July 16.  He never made any effort to meet they deadline – so he is in contempt again.  My lawyer seems to feel that judge may try to push for an agreement, even without the business appraisal – can I refuse to agree until the appraisal is done? I am also looking for some support – those of you who are done with your mess, was there anything that you mistakenly left out – if so, can that one portion be opened up? Why doesn’t he get into trouble with all these contempt charges, he lied on his financial, and now this, will he get any kind of repercussions at all??? I can’t really say what I mean (the ambien kicked in FAST ) but I hope you can get at least some sort of a  clue as to what I need…. any advice? — Christi Stampin’ Up! Representative Art Without Anxiety www.ArtWithoutAnxiety.com ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^<         ^,,^<

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Question:

H.B., trill. Your goals are brave – and I have every hope for you. I will follow your story avidly, because I am rather in a similar position of wanting to re-enter, and feeling as if it might be possible. Might. Take care, and I’m glad about the couch. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today is mine.     This is my last year in the forties.  It is the first time that I’ve felt any fear of aging, and I guess that’s because of all of the health problems that have developed for me over the past year.     I’m working on getting back into the work force.  I think that if I am working and involved in community that I will not only be more mentally and emotionally healthy, but that I will become more physically healthy as well. (Just thought I’d take the opportunity of my birthday to  post some goals for myself.)     I share this birthday with good company — Malcom X, Ho Chi Minh, and Grace Jones, to name a few famous people born on May 19. Over the weekend a friend of mine gave me a couch.  It is her old couch, but my new one.  The one I had was about 20 yrs. old and I could only tolerate using it by piling a whole bunch of pillows on it.  But this "new" one is still quite comfy.  And not only that, it is a sleep sofa, you know that kind that opens out into a bed.  Plus, it totally matches the rest of my living room decor, which another friend describes as "early attic," but none-the-less, it has a color scheme.     So, because today is the first sunshiny day in weeks, The Potato and I will go on a long hike, for hours and hours and miles and miles in the area woods.  Then I will get together with a friend who has a birthday close to mine and we will get a carry out dinner and watch the Martha Stewart movie on t.v. because we think it will be really campy, from the previews, and that Cybil Shephard is the perfect person to play the role.         "Did I not order merlot?"  (anybody else see the ads for this t.v. movie?)  Just the ads crack me up.         "From my table to yours."     I used to work at an independent book store and we sold a monthly that was called "Martha Stewart Doesn’t Live Here."  Anybody ever see that?  It was funny, always spoofing everything Marthaesque.     For my big FIVE  OH b-day, next May 19, I want to be in a beach house on the coast of a Carolina, or on one of the islands off the coast of those states, with a small group of close friends.  Maybe for a week.     Starting now to save and plan. Gotta have some goals and plans at this stage of life, eh?  And gotta get moving.  Because right now I’m on a different kind of island, stranded, and alone (which someone will contradict by telling me to look upwards in this post and notice what I’ve said of friends, but whether or not this would be true for another person, for me I do not get enough company, nor do I feel connected to anything.  And, it is sort of scary.     But, maybe I’ll be able to make a comeback.     Is there anyone here who has been dxed with that which brings us here, gone on disability, and then managed to come back to working life and what is considered to be normal socializing?  If so, can you please post something about the process: how you began to reconnect, how you got beyond the stigma of being MI, or if you just didn’t tell anyone and how you managed to get back into the work force without accounting for your time out of it? trill

Response:

Today is mine.     This is my last year in the forties.  It is the first time that I’ve felt any fear of aging, and I guess that’s because of all of the health problems that have developed for me over the past year.     I’m working on getting back into the work force.  I think that if I am working and involved in community that I will not only be more mentally and emotionally healthy, but that I will become more physically healthy as well. (Just thought I’d take the opportunity of my birthday to  post some goals for myself.)     I share this birthday with good company — Malcom X, Ho Chi Minh, and Grace Jones, to name a few famous people born on May 19. Over the weekend a friend of mine gave me a couch.  It is her old couch, but my new one.  The one I had was about 20 yrs. old and I could only tolerate using it by piling a whole bunch of pillows on it.  But this "new" one is still quite comfy.  And not only that, it is a sleep sofa, you know that kind that opens out into a bed.  Plus, it totally matches the rest of my living room decor, which another friend describes as "early attic," but none-the-less, it has a color scheme.     So, because today is the first sunshiny day in weeks, The Potato and I will go on a long hike, for hours and hours and miles and miles in the area woods.  Then I will get together with a friend who has a birthday close to mine and we will get a carry out dinner and watch the Martha Stewart movie on t.v. because we think it will be really campy, from the previews, and that Cybil Shephard is the perfect person to play the role.         "Did I not order merlot?"  (anybody else see the ads for this t.v. movie?)  Just the ads crack me up.         "From my table to yours."     I used to work at an independent book store and we sold a monthly that was called "Martha Stewart Doesn’t Live Here."  Anybody ever see that?  It was funny, always spoofing everything Marthaesque.     For my big FIVE  OH b-day, next May 19, I want to be in a beach house on the coast of a Carolina, or on one of the islands off the coast of those states, with a small group of close friends.  Maybe for a week.     Starting now to save and plan. Gotta have some goals and plans at this stage of life, eh?  And gotta get moving.  Because right now I’m on a different kind of island, stranded, and alone (which someone will contradict by telling me to look upwards in this post and notice what I’ve said of friends, but whether or not this would be true for another person, for me I do not get enough company, nor do I feel connected to anything.  And, it is sort of scary.     But, maybe I’ll be able to make a comeback.     Is there anyone here who has been dxed with that which brings us here, gone on disability, and then managed to come back to working life and what is considered to be normal socializing?  If so, can you please post something about the process: how you began to reconnect, how you got beyond the stigma of being MI, or if you just didn’t tell anyone and how you managed to get back into the work force without accounting for your time out of it? trill

Response:

happy bday, tho i’m sure you’ll read this when it’s tomorrow for you.  it’s still your bday here, tho. having plans is good.  we went back to school to get back into the job market.  had plans to say something about family obligations if asked, but no one ever did. — astri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Today is mine.    This is my last year in the forties.  It is the first time that I’ve felt any fear of aging, and I guess that’s because of all of the health problems that have developed for me over the past year.    I’m working on getting back into the work force.  I think that if I am working and involved in community that I will not only be more mentally and emotionally healthy, but that I will become more physically healthy as well. (Just thought I’d take the opportunity of my birthday to  post some goals for myself.)    I share this birthday with good company — Malcom X, Ho Chi Minh, and Grace Jones, to name a few famous people born on May 19. Over the weekend a friend of mine gave me a couch.  It is her old couch, but my new one.  The one I had was about 20 yrs. old and I could only tolerate using it by piling a whole bunch of pillows on it.  But this "new" one is still quite comfy.  And not only that, it is a sleep sofa, you know that kind that opens out into a bed.  Plus, it totally matches the rest of my living room decor, which another friend describes as "early attic," but none-the-less, it has a color scheme.    So, because today is the first sunshiny day in weeks, The Potato and I will go on a long hike, for hours and hours and miles and miles in the area woods.  Then I will get together with a friend who has a birthday close to mine and we will get a carry out dinner and watch the Martha Stewart movie on t.v. because we think it will be really campy, from the previews, and that Cybil Shephard is the perfect person to play the role.        "Did I not order merlot?"  (anybody else see the ads for this t.v. movie?)  Just the ads crack me up.        "From my table to yours."    I used to work at an independent book store and we sold a monthly that was called "Martha Stewart Doesn’t Live Here."  Anybody ever see that?  It was funny, always spoofing everything Marthaesque.    For my big FIVE  OH b-day, next May 19, I want to be in a beach house on the coast of a Carolina, or on one of the islands off the coast of those states, with a small group of close friends.  Maybe for a week.    Starting now to save and plan. Gotta have some goals and plans at this stage of life, eh?  And gotta get moving.  Because right now I’m on a different kind of island, stranded, and alone (which someone will contradict by telling me to look upwards in this post and notice what I’ve said of friends, but whether or not this would be true for another person, for me I do not get enough company, nor do I feel connected to anything.  And, it is sort of scary.    But, maybe I’ll be able to make a comeback.    Is there anyone here who has been dxed with that which brings us here, gone on disability, and then managed to come back to working life and what is considered to be normal socializing?  If so, can you please post something about the process: how you began to reconnect, how you got beyond the stigma of being MI, or if you just didn’t tell anyone and how you managed to get back into the work force without accounting for your time out of it? trill

Response:

Hey trill/lil sis Happy B’day  woo hoo bells whistles and rockets.. mustn’t forget those pickeral cheeks D The "1" rolled around on our odometer at the beginin’ of the the month shrug<

Kewl… about the couch!  :o) Really neat plans for the big five oh… too.. Getting back into the workforce… too!! We think that would be most benificial for you.. sis!! Do try not to over-commit yourself though! Much malf and B-day cheer J/cbig sis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today is mine.     This is my last year in the forties.  It is the first time that I’ve felt any fear of aging, and I guess that’s because of all of the health problems that have developed for me over the past year.     I’m working on getting back into the work force.  I think that if I am working and involved in community that I will not only be more mentally and emotionally healthy, but that I will become more physically healthy as well. (Just thought I’d take the opportunity of my birthday to  post some goals for myself.)     I share this birthday with good company — Malcom X, Ho Chi Minh, and Grace Jones, to name a few famous people born on May 19. Over the weekend a friend of mine gave me a couch.  It is her old couch, but my new one.  The one I had was about 20 yrs. old and I could only tolerate using it by piling a whole bunch of pillows on it.  But this "new" one is still quite comfy.  And not only that, it is a sleep sofa, you know that kind that opens out into a bed.  Plus, it totally matches the rest of my living room decor, which another friend describes as "early attic," but none-the-less, it has a color scheme.     So, because today is the first sunshiny day in weeks, The Potato and I will go on a long hike, for hours and hours and miles and miles in the area woods.  Then I will get together with a friend who has a birthday close to mine and we will get a carry out dinner and watch the Martha Stewart movie on t.v. because we think it will be really campy, from the previews, and that Cybil Shephard is the perfect person to play the role.         "Did I not order merlot?"  (anybody else see the ads for this t.v. movie?)  Just the ads crack me up.         "From my table to yours."     I used to work at an independent book store and we sold a monthly that was called "Martha Stewart Doesn’t Live Here."  Anybody ever see that?  It was funny, always spoofing everything Marthaesque.     For my big FIVE  OH b-day, next May 19, I want to be in a beach house on the coast of a Carolina, or on one of the islands off the coast of those states, with a small group of close friends.  Maybe for a week.     Starting now to save and plan. Gotta have some goals and plans at this stage of life, eh?  And gotta get moving.  Because right now I’m on a different kind of island, stranded, and alone (which someone will contradict by telling me to look upwards in this post and notice what I’ve said of friends, but whether or not this would be true for another person, for me I do not get enough company, nor do I feel connected to anything.  And, it is sort of scary.     But, maybe I’ll be able to make a comeback.     Is there anyone here who has been dxed with that which brings us here, gone on disability, and then managed to come back to working life and what is considered to be normal socializing?  If so, can you please post something about the process: how you began to reconnect, how you got beyond the stigma of being MI, or if you just didn’t tell anyone and how you managed to get back into the work force without accounting for your time out of it? trill

Response:

Things hard here on the outside. Working very hard to strenghthen myself on the inside and with outside skills. But sometimes feel like I am lying in a puddle. Thanks for asking. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Beauty, and it’s good to hear from you, too.  I am doing really well.,…. and it’s scary!  ;)  Hope you’re doing ok, too. Donna : : Haven’t seen you long time. Happy to see a name from way back. Hope you : are well – you are sounding well. Thanks for coming by to see us – : : Best – : : Beauty.

Response:

Hi, Beauty, and it’s good to hear from you, too.  I am doing really well.,…. and it’s scary!  ;)  Hope you’re doing ok, too. Donna : : Haven’t seen you long time. Happy to see a name from way back. Hope you : are well – you are sounding well. Thanks for coming by to see us – : : Best – : : Beauty.

Response:

Hi Donna!!!! Haven’t seen you long time. Happy to see a name from way back. Hope you are well – you are sounding well. Thanks for coming by to see us – Best – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi again, trill, and I live not to far from our state’s capital.  Have always lived in the Pacific NW. I use to write a lot on asd but went thru so much "stuff" that I stayed away…..I was triggering myself a lot and didn’t want to cause harm here.  I am doing really well these days, though, and am down to 3 people…..all adult woman .  I work at a really cool place and have even made some friends……didn’t think that was possible a few years ago.  Course they don’t know anything about me but that;s the way I want it. thanks for the happy birthday greeting.  Even though we don’t know each other, receiving it meant a lot to me. Donna : Hello Donna.  I don’t think I’ve met you before, so it’s nice of you to send : good birthday wishes to me. :     I’ve been to Mt. St. Helens.  In fact, I used to watch it blowing stuff : out, although I wasn’t near it until a year after the major eruption.  The : fall out was amazing, though.  And then, over the years, I hiked around : there a bunch and watched while evolution started over again.  It was : amazing, awe-inspiring, and beautiful, even in the devastation. :     Do you live in that area?  The Pacific NW is my favorite part of the : Americas. : : And thanks to everyone else who took the time to send me a birthday : greeting.  Also, Happy Birthday to you, too, Donna, and to you, too Nancy. : : trill : : and a belated happy birthday to you, trill!  the 18th was mine.  I beat ya : to the 50’s plus add 2 more.  Mt. Saint Helens blew on my bday in 1980. : Kinda like I did in ‘95. : Donna : : : :

Response:

hi again, trill, and I live not to far from our state’s capital.  Have always lived in the Pacific NW. I use to write a lot on asd but went thru so much "stuff" that I stayed away…..I was triggering myself a lot and didn’t want to cause harm here.  I am doing really well these days, though, and am down to 3 people…..all adult woman .  I work at a really cool place and have even made some friends……didn’t think that was possible a few years ago.  Course they don’t know anything about me but that;s the way I want it. thanks for the happy birthday greeting.  Even though we don’t know each other, receiving it meant a lot to me. Donna : Hello Donna.  I don’t think I’ve met you before, so it’s nice of you to send : good birthday wishes to me. :     I’ve been to Mt. St. Helens.  In fact, I used to watch it blowing stuff : out, although I wasn’t near it until a year after the major eruption.  The : fall out was amazing, though.  And then, over the years, I hiked around : there a bunch and watched while evolution started over again.  It was : amazing, awe-inspiring, and beautiful, even in the devastation. :     Do you live in that area?  The Pacific NW is my favorite part of the : Americas. : : And thanks to everyone else who took the time to send me a birthday : greeting.  Also, Happy Birthday to you, too, Donna, and to you, too Nancy. : : trill :

: and a belated happy birthday to you, trill!  the 18th was mine.  I beat ya : to the 50’s plus add 2 more.  Mt. Saint Helens blew on my bday in 1980. : Kinda like I did in ‘95. : Donna : : : :

Response:

and a belated happy birthday to you, trill!  the 18th was mine.  I beat ya to the 50’s plus add 2 more.  Mt. Saint Helens blew on my bday in 1980. Kinda like I did in ‘95. Donna

Response:

Hello Donna.  I don’t think I’ve met you before, so it’s nice of you to send good birthday wishes to me.     I’ve been to Mt. St. Helens.  In fact, I used to watch it blowing stuff out, although I wasn’t near it until a year after the major eruption.  The fall out was amazing, though.  And then, over the years, I hiked around there a bunch and watched while evolution started over again.  It was amazing, awe-inspiring, and beautiful, even in the devastation.     Do you live in that area?  The Pacific NW is my favorite part of the Americas. And thanks to everyone else who took the time to send me a birthday greeting.  Also, Happy Birthday to you, too, Donna, and to you, too Nancy. trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and a belated happy birthday to you, trill!  the 18th was mine.  I beat ya to the 50’s plus add 2 more.  Mt. Saint Helens blew on my bday in 1980. Kinda like I did in ‘95. Donna

Response:

Happy birthday, trill! I hope you enjoyed the day and had a great time. Mine was last week, by the way. I went out to dinner twice, that day and the day before. And my clients made me cards and got cheescake and chocolate cake -Nancy

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<SNIP Let me try again. What is it about the the world at large that makes you think that a company management group which wishes to lie, cheat, and steal would hire an auditor with high integrity if "competition" allows the presence of auditors with low integrity in the marketplace? Because not everyone has bitten into the greed management seminars Andersen did during the 1980’s and 1990’s.  Not everyone solely bases their decisions on $$…for example, it looks to me Hudspeth has lost

Not everyone has to buy into greed to wreak havoc. money due to his wanting to maintain his integrity, for either legal, moral reasons or because or his belief in accounting princicples. He didn’t put down money as the only or sole reason for for making decisions.

So, in your perfect world those with integrity will out compete the liars and thieves thus driving them from the market place. What about back here in reality? <<SNIP I never hear bad things about other accounting firms. That doesn’t

Then you don’t pay attention. As we post, the other Big four (and AICPA) are doing their utmost to minimize the occurrence of any substantive change in the way they do business. They left Andersen out of their little group NOT because Andersen is seen as lacking integrity but because Andersen was seen as being too willing to agree to changes that would hurt the other firms’ ability to make money and lots of it. make my conclusion scientific, but it does lead me to hope that isn’t true of accounting in general. I’m hoping with Andersen’s demise people will look toward the smaller firms and things wil lturn around. I am under the impression most accountants aren’t like Andersen, but

Among the Big 5 it appears to be only a matter of degree. easy2000

Response:

To be blunt, it is time to clean house.

I completely agree. Jim Hudspeth

Response:

Just about everything that involves human beings has a tendency to go rotten.  The only solution is to tend the garden and take out the weeds.  The price of a lack of corruption is eternal vigilance. Unfortunately, lethargy is a dominant human predisposition. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Competition is a wonderful thing as is free market capitalism.  However, it has absolutely nothing to do with the problem at hand, the rot in public accounting.  The rot has been there a long time as the industry has been self shielded from close scrutiny since it started.  It needs effective external regulation.  Self regulation has failed.  It is time to get the States off their butts and get the Federal government into closely overseeing accounting firms. To be blunt, it is time to clean house. I’ll agree with that. But if we don’t try doing something to change people internally, then in a few years the Feds will become just as corrupt as Enron’s board, and nothing long term will change. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

So, in your perfect world those with integrity will out compete the liars and thieves thus driving them from the market place. What about back here in reality? That is reality. If things had always been as they are, you wouldn’t be complaining about nor have a job, would you? Accounting was supposed to solve part of that problem.

Although I have a job that fact is irrelevant to the accuracy (or more accurately, the lack of accuracy) of your belief that all it takes is some competition from ethical audit firms for everything to be ok. easy2000

Response:

No, people like the Enron managers and Andersen auditors will continue to look for ways to arabesque around the rules. This has always been true though. Hence why auditing started to begin with.

And how is your ‘competition will fix everything’ model going to deal with that? easy2000

Response:

When when people realize that competition among auditing firms is BAD for independence? I don’t mean competition on the grand scale as in the late 80’s and early 90’s, but based more on integrity. Little firms will have to offer that, I think.

And what is it about the Enron fiasco that makes you think that an auditing firm with integrity has a competitive advantage with company management that wishes to lie, cheat, and steal? easy2000

Response:

<<SNIP Let me try again. What is it about the the world at large that makes you think that a company management group which wishes to lie, cheat, and steal would hire an auditor with high integrity if "competition" allows the presence of auditors with low integrity in the marketplace? easy2000

Response:

<<SNIP Let me try again. What is it about the the world at large that makes you think that a company management group which wishes to lie, cheat, and steal would hire an auditor with high integrity if "competition" allows the presence of auditors with low integrity in the marketplace?

Nothing. Which is why the industry needs rigorous external regulation, monitoring and enforcement in addition of the innoculous "self-regulation" placebo palated to date. At least the soft fraudsters would have to pay off more conpliance and enforcement officials, making crime a bit more expensive. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": jihad Bush fissionable Somalia assassination AK-47 Khatami quiche bomb

Response:

What is it about the the world at large that makes you think that a company management group which wishes to lie, cheat, and steal would hire an auditor with high integrity if "competition" allows the presence of auditors with low integrity in the marketplace? Nothing. Which is why the industry needs rigorous external regulation, monitoring and enforcement in addition of the innoculous "self-regulation" placebo palated to date. At least the soft fraudsters would have to pay off more conpliance and enforcement officials, making crime a bit more expensive.

I agree with you 100%. I’m trying to get coltdawg to actually think a bit about his apparent beliefs that (1) competition will solve this problem and (2) integrity is a feature liars and thieves will look for in an audit firm. easy2000

Response:

Competition is a wonderful thing as is free market capitalism.  However, it has absolutely nothing to do with the problem at hand, the rot in public accounting.  The rot has been there a long time as the industry has been self shielded from close scrutiny since it started.  It needs effective external regulation.  Self regulation has failed.  It is time to get the States off their butts and get the Federal government into closely overseeing accounting firms. To be blunt, it is time to clean house. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve talked to a few fellows who get tax clients by finding errors in the work of other CPAs.  They say it is absolutely no problem to get clients. This is a good example of the competition I’m talking about. They won clients due to integrity, since they could demonstrate they did a better job. Andersen retained clients by doing a worse job. They promised less work for more money. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

I agree with you 100%. I’m trying to get coltdawg to actually think a bit about his apparent beliefs that (1) competition will solve this problem If it’s competition based on merit, than yes. But I think it is more based on money. If Andersen gets punished and Enron too, companies may see the writing on the wal land think twice about trying to BS their investors so badly, and look for a better firm.

No, people like the Enron managers and Andersen auditors will continue to look for ways to arabesque around the rules. A firm concerned with its integrity and honestly maintaining it will

What about the firms that lack integrity and honesty? be much more likely to disclaim an audit by an unscrupulous company, and keep its long term clients, rather than betting the farm as Andersen did with Enron and others. and (2) integrity is a feature liars and thieves will look for in an audit firm. Well, I don’t think they ever will. But if the smaller firms which

You sure talk like that’s what you believe. You’ve not yet offered a solution that addresses the real problem. depend on integrity to get by are the next ones to get the bigger clients, perhaps they’ll consider not betting the farm and not putting up with Andersen’s shanigans for short term gain, making it harder for

Enron’s shenanigans, too. That’s my point. easy2000

Response:

Major rumbles likely if Andersen collapses By Robert Manor, Tribune staff reporter. Tribune staff reporter Delroy Alexander contributed to this report Published March 12, 2002 If Andersen is dragged into oblivion by the Enron scandal–an outcome some industry observers regard as inevitable–it likely will have far-reaching effects on Corporate America. Auditing fees will rise if the Big Five accounting firms become the Big Four. Some companies may find that accounting firms reject their business. And the many thousands of people who are suing Andersen could win in court, only to learn that Andersen has no way to pay them. Andersen is in dire trouble. The firm is negotiating with the Justice Department in the hope of avoiding indictment for obstruction of justice. After Enron’s deceptive accounting came to light late last year, Andersen partners shredded thousands of documents, the firm later disclosed. The severity of Andersen’s problems was underscored Monday when the head of an independent oversight board established to recommend reforms at the Chicago-based firm urged Andersen to separate its auditing and consulting practices, among other changes. The combination at Andersen and other major accounting firms has generated conflict-of-interest allegations. <snip While the Big Five firms–KPMG, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Deloitte & Touche, Ernst & Young and Andersen–have a lock on most of the nation’s largest corporations, there are dozens of smaller firms eager for a share of their business. Julie Lindy, managing editor of Public Accounting Report, said some publicly traded companies may decide that a marquee name isn’t worth the price, and consider going to a lesser-known auditing firm. She noted that BDO Seidman of Chicago, the sixth-largest accounting firm, has revenues of $2.2 billion compared with fifth-ranked Andersen’s $9.3 billion. Still, she said, Seidman has an international reach. "Would Corporate America be willing to entrust their audits to a smaller firm?" Lindy asked. "There are some very good firms with integrity and the ability to audit public companies." http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0203120261mar12.story?coll… Big 4? Large 100?  There may be non-locomotive light at the end of this tunnel yet. Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA

Response:

Think you have it Jim! My prof’s in college were hoping for the same thing, especially after the Big 8 stopped hiring as much……I’d rather see moe smaller firms-less centralization, more competition,

When when people realize that competition among auditing firms is BAD for independence? easy2000

Response:

Could any better outcome occur than Andersen disappearing from public auditing as they deserve? Perhaps such a demise would at least make the others think twice about helping their clients cook the books. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": class struggle Nazi nuclear GAO von Buelow cryptographic Treasury Ortega

Response:

Could any better outcome occur than Andersen disappearing from public auditing as they deserve?

A few Andersen partners in jail. Perhaps such a demise would at least make the others think twice about helping their clients cook the books.

Maybe, maybe not. More likely not if competition for clients increases. easy2000

Response:

Accounting may return to being a profession again.

That’d be nice I suppose, but I doubt the AICPA will allow it to happen that way, nor will Congress.  The hunt is on and we won’t come out of this until we (CPA’s) are regulated out of business. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmmmm.  BDO Siedman, successor firm to Seidman & Siedman.  EQUITY FUNDING. No one ever lost a buck underestimating the retention’s span of the public and their ability to do an internet search. Actually, Equity Funding was audited by some jack leg outfit that merged with Siedman & Siedman. Some years later Stanley Goldblum (disgraced CEO of Equity Funding) became the CEO of a chain of medical services clinics that Siedman was auditing.  Siedman promptly resigned. To the best of my knowledge Siedman is a first class outfit. Also, we need to keep in mind that anyone can get had once in a while.  The problem with Andersen is that it has become a way of life.

I will lay odds that Andersen is no worse than the bottom half, and probably better than the second quartile in auditing.  I will also propose most audits are far below the written standards and wouldn’t stand up to a serious quality control review. The only thing that save there bacon is no one really reviews there work. I’ve talked to a few fellows who get tax clients by finding errors in the work of other CPAs.  They say it is absolutely no problem to get clients.  If we ever get to the point where there is a thorough, competent review of public accountants work by a federal or state agency, I predict there are going to be a lot fewer firms.  I remember how many firms got into single audits when they started.  It was simply amazing how many audits failed a desk review.  To bad we could never convince D.C. to go out and review the work papers.  I think we could have made the New York Times. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

And Mr. Siedman had left S&S when it happened. Some think the majority of firms play russian roulette with risk and it is only because Enrons happen so infrequently that they get away with doing sloppy audits. You look at BDO Siedman’s web ad and you find they are doing the same thing Andersen did.  Auditing AND consulting out of the same firm.  This is one of the big points that Metcalf Submission brought up and is finally being addressed via H.R. 3818. Hmmmmm.  BDO Siedman, successor firm to Seidman & Siedman.  EQUITY FUNDING. No one ever lost a buck underestimating the retention’s span of the public and their ability to do an internet search. Actually, Equity Funding was audited by some jack leg outfit that merged with Siedman & Siedman. easy2000

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Hmmmmm.  BDO Siedman, successor firm to Seidman & Siedman.  EQUITY FUNDING. No one ever lost a buck underestimating the retention’s span of the public and their ability to do an internet search.

Actually, Equity Funding was audited by some jack leg outfit that merged with Siedman & Siedman. easy2000

Response:

Hmmmmm.  BDO Siedman, successor firm to Seidman & Siedman.  EQUITY FUNDING. No one ever lost a buck underestimating the retention’s span of the public and their ability to do an internet search. Actually, Equity Funding was audited by some jack leg outfit that merged with Siedman & Siedman.

Some years later Stanley Goldblum (disgraced CEO of Equity Funding) became the CEO of a chain of medical services clinics that Siedman was auditing.  Siedman promptly resigned. To the best of my knowledge Siedman is a first class outfit. Also, we need to keep in mind that anyone can get had once in a while.  The problem with Andersen is that it has become a way of life. Jim Hudspeth

Response:

I don’t see it. Partnership goes.  Partners & staff, IMHO the real problem, go to other firms.  The problem contuse under a new name. Best outcome would probably be to bar all partners, professional staff, and employees from S.E.C. work for life.  I don’t see that happening. Could any better outcome occur than Andersen disappearing from public auditing as they deserve? Perhaps such a demise would at least make the others think twice about helping their clients cook the books.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Perhaps such a demise would at least make the others think twice about helping their clients cook the books.

If no one goes to jail for a long-long time and/or no one is forced to fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars of their OWN money, then they just change ships and keep sailing along.  History has shown that few (from all sides) will learn much from this. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

Response:

Hmmmmm.  BDO Siedman, successor firm to Seidman & Siedman.  EQUITY FUNDING. No one ever lost a buck underestimating the retention’s span of the public and their ability to do an internet search.

…. Never heard anything bad about Seidman, ever. Not sure what that means, but oftenno news is good news.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arthur Andersen Warned Qwest About Risk of Swaps The memos also paint a more complex picture of Andersen’s role in accounting for telecom companies. The now-defunct accounting firm is considered the primary architect of the transactions, and it authored a so-called White Paper that was widely followed in the industry. http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1033610506150854313,00.html?mod=ho… (subscription only) This tends to confirm what I have alleged for years – that the accountants were pushing these scams. Jim Hudspeth I strongly disagree with your attitude that Accountants were primarily responsible for these scams.  Executives of corporations were *primarily* responsible for the act of FRAUD.  Fraud is an act, that originates in Intention.  These Executives attracted to themselves and paid huge fees to, whateaver liars and devious cheats they could find to help them *implement* their intention of lying. The Executives were accordingly, the Corrupters of accountants, not the reverse. By allocating hundreds of millions of dollars to Andersen and that whole segment of the accounting industry who works hard to assist in LYING, they made it impossible for honest accountants to make a living. When did Accountants have any symettrical power, to corrupt Executives? Get a fuckin CLUE, Jim. Todd Just following the evidence Todd.

I vote for Jim’s interpretation. I think Andersen, as well as the rest of the Internationals was staffed with folks who "would do what it takes to get the job done." I also think the repercussions of this stuff is going to go on for a long time.  I notice all those good folks "who can get the job done" are moving off into other prominent positions.  I don’t think we are anywhere near the end of the tunnel. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arthur Andersen Warned Qwest About Risk of Swaps The memos also paint a more complex picture of Andersen’s role in accounting for telecom companies. The now-defunct accounting firm is considered the primary architect of the transactions, and it authored a so-called White Paper that was widely followed in the industry. http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1033610506150854313,00.html?mod=ho… (subscription only) This tends to confirm what I have alleged for years – that the accountants were pushing these scams. Jim Hudspeth I strongly disagree with your attitude that Accountants were primarily responsible for these scams.  Executives of corporations were *primarily* responsible for the act of FRAUD.  Fraud is an act, that originates in Intention.  These Executives attracted to themselves and paid huge fees to, whateaver liars and devious cheats they could find to help them *implement* their intention of lying.   The Executives were accordingly, the Corrupters of accountants, not the reverse.   By allocating hundreds of millions of dollars to Andersen and that whole segment of the accounting industry who works hard to assist in LYING, they made it impossible for honest accountants to make a living. When did Accountants have any symettrical power, to corrupt Executives? Get a fuckin CLUE, Jim.   Todd

Just following the evidence Todd. Jim

Response:

Arthur Andersen Warned Qwest About Risk of Swaps The memos also paint a more complex picture of Andersen’s role in accounting for telecom companies. The now-defunct accounting firm is considered the primary architect of the transactions, and it authored a so-called White Paper that was widely followed in the industry. http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1033610506150854313,00.html?mod=ho… (subscription only) This tends to confirm what I have alleged for years – that the accountants were pushing these scams. Jim Hudspeth

I strongly disagree with your attitude that Accountants were primarily responsible for these scams.  Executives of corporations were *primarily* responsible for the act of FRAUD.  Fraud is an act, that originates in Intention.  These Executives attracted to themselves and paid huge fees to, whateaver liars and devious cheats they could find to help them *implement* their intention of lying.   The Executives were accordingly, the Corrupters of accountants, not the reverse.   By allocating hundreds of millions of dollars to Andersen and that whole segment of the accounting industry who works hard to assist in LYING, they made it impossible for honest accountants to make a living. When did Accountants have any symettrical power, to corrupt Executives? Get a fuckin CLUE, Jim.   Todd

Response:

Arthur Andersen Warned Qwest About Risk of Swaps By DENNIS K. BERMAN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL As early as 2000, outside auditors at Qwest Communications International Inc. regarded the company’s use of revenue-enhancing swap transactions as a potential risk for the company, warning that the Securities and Exchange Commission was already "vigorously" challenging some of its financial practices. <snip The memos also paint a more complex picture of Andersen’s role in accounting for telecom companies. The now-defunct accounting firm is considered the primary architect of the transactions, and it authored a so-called White Paper that was widely followed in the industry. http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1033610506150854313,00.html?mod=ho… (subscription only) This tends to confirm what I have alleged for years – that the accountants were pushing these scams. Jim Hudspeth

Response:

Question:

…. If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets … So in what way are they more convenient?

They’re more conveninet for the airline, in that they don’t have to process all that "nasty" paper.  Same reason bankers are in love with the idea of a "cashless society," even if no one else is.

Response:

<<snip If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient? marcos

Convenient for WHOM?  I agree that if you don’t lose a ticket, it doesn’t matter.  You can stay on-line (on the same airline) and it doesn’t matter, either.  The savings goes to the line.  (I have lost 2 tickets, though and not being able to lose one actually helps me feel better – especially when I’m ready to leave for the airport and going

Response:

I think that until e-tickets are electronically transferable from one airline to another, airlines should have a default reaction to print the eticket as soon as a passenger has a problem which cannot be handled electronically (eg: put on another airline’s plane).

Actually, NW has already started electronic transfer of e-tickets when needed (I believe with UA??), since the strike last fall (other airlines offered to transport passengers stranded by the strike).  This was the first electronic transfer in the Airline industry, and there will be more and more such agreements in the near future. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better? That was not the blanket position taken by e-ticket supporters on this group.  In fact, each time this has come up, it is noted that this biggest disadvantage of e-tickets is when there are flight irregularities and it becomes necessary to fly on a carrier other than the one in which you are e-ticketed. You may be confusing yourself with a post about a flight that was cancelled after everyone had already checked in (and boarded, IIRC). Paper ticket holders had to stand in line to retrieve their pulled coupons before they could make alternate flight arrangements, putting them at a disadvantage for availability on other flights, either on the ticketed carrier or another carrier.  In that scenario, e-ticket holders could go directly to a pay phone and call the airlines for an alternate reservation.  Yes, they would then have to have their e-ticket converted to a paper ticket if the new flight was on another carrier, but at least they had a reservation, when someone calling 10 or 15 minutes later may not.

yes, you are correct, the scenario you describe was the one that I was thinking about.  But I don’t understand why paper ticket holders couldn’t go to the same pay phone and make the same reservation as an e-ticket holder?  (Perhaps this was discussed at the time, but I believe the thread became quite long and I stopped reading). marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better?

That was not the blanket position taken by e-ticket supporters on this group.  In fact, each time this has come up, it is noted that this biggest disadvantage of e-tickets is when there are flight irregularities and it becomes necessary to fly on a carrier other than the one in which you are e-ticketed. You may be confusing yourself with a post about a flight that was cancelled after everyone had already checked in (and boarded, IIRC). Paper ticket holders had to stand in line to retrieve their pulled coupons before they could make alternate flight arrangements, putting them at a disadvantage for availability on other flights, either on the ticketed carrier or another carrier.  In that scenario, e-ticket holders could go directly to a pay phone and call the airlines for an alternate reservation.  Yes, they would then have to have their e-ticket converted to a paper ticket if the new flight was on another carrier, but at least they had a reservation, when someone calling 10 or 15 minutes later may not. If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient?

See above response.

Response:

e-tickets have an advantage to the passenger:         you can’t lose them….         you can make changes over the phone…         you can make last minute bookings…

Also …. they can’t get lost in the mail. —                                 William LeFebvre                                 Group sys Consulting                                 +1 770 813 3224

Response:

But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better?

Change to another flight on the same airline: much easier Change to another flight on a different airline: much harder (And which do you think the airline would prefer? That said, you may be able to get your e-ticket converted to a paper ticket at another desk, where if your paper ticket has already been pulled for a flight you’ll have to get it back from *that* desk.  (Admittedly, I haven’t yet had a situation that required trying this.)  That may tip the balance a little toward the e-ticket. — Put location information in your DNS! <URL:http://www.ckdhr.com/dns-loc/

Response:

If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient?

e-tickets are relatively new. Once all airlines are confortable with them, you will start to see the possibility to electronically switch you from one airline to the other. But for the airlines to develop this software, there has to be a business case for it. How much will they save versus printing your ticket ? paper tickets costs the airline megabucks to handle. A blank paper ticket is like a signed blank check. And a used paper ticket must be reconciliated to ensure no fraud was done and to do all the accounting because the ticket has the value, not the computer. But with an e-ticket, the value is in the computer. I think that until e-tickets are electronically transferable from one airline to another, airlines should have a default reaction to print the eticket as soon as a passenger has a problem which cannot be handled electronically (eg: put on another airline’s plane). e-ticklets have an advantage to the passenger:         you can’t lose them. (remember if you lose your paper ticket, you must buy a new one usually at         full price and wait for a refund)         you can make changes over the phone and not have to show up at a ticket office to update the         ticket.         you can make last minute bookings and still meet the ticketing deadline even if airport         or city ticket offices are already closed. (for advance fares).         also, many airlines offer incentives (extra FF points) if you go eticket.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SNIP Change to another flight on the same airline: much easier Change to another flight on a different airline: much harder (And which do you think the airline would prefer? That said, you may be able to get your e-ticket converted to a paper ticket at another desk, where if your paper ticket has already been pulled for a flight you’ll have to get it back from *that* desk.  (Admittedly, I haven’t yet had a situation that required trying this.)  That may tip the balance a little toward the e-ticket.

The fact that you are really hosed if you want to try an alternate airline due to some problem with the ticketed airline is a HUGE problem in my book.   Anybody can get a ticket change for flights within the same airline.  I really don’t like walking around with an e-ticket with flights that the e-ticket doesn’t say.  In any event, won’t the ticket locator number for a paper or an e-ticket say which routing or flights you are really booked on? Rich

Response:

When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with.

But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better? If what I experienced and you say is true this mans that e-tickets have no advantage over paper tickets (except for those people who lose airline tickets).  So in what way are they more convenient? marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. But this is exactly the opposite position of the one taken by the e-tickets supporters in a long r.t.a thread several months ago.  They said that the big advantage of e-tickets is that when flights get cancelled and/or travel plans change it’s possible to change flights without having to physically be at an airline ticket counter or office (i.e. you could do it over the pohone) .  If I have to have an e-ticket converted to a paper ticket before changing airlines how is that better?

Yet another reason why I hate e-tickets….  I had no problem presenting my paper ticket to the front desk agent down in MBJ last month.  Even though my paper ticket was for a flight which no longer existed, I was reconfirmed in their computer through the alternate flight (seat assignments and all).   I got screwed last xmas during the big ice storm at IAD when I was going to miss my connecting flight out of PHL on US.  I called the Preferred line and got through to a person who had no problem in booking me on a n/s flight through LAX on UA.  Problem is that when I got to the UA gate, I realized I had a e-ticket.  S**T! Rich

Response:

One of the problems with e-tickets is they have to be converted to paper tickets before another airline can accept them.  Whenever there is a problem or potential problem that should be the first thing you do, ask they convert your e-ticket to a paper ticket, it will keep you from having to make a stop at your airlines ticket counter before going to the other airline. I also found out, the hard way, that your own airline may need a copy of the paper ticket to give you miles for the flight they cancelled.  They can not issue you the miles with just the e-ticket, even if you made the reservation through them.  As it was explained to us they need either a paper ticket or a copy of the confirmation from the airline with the ticket number, not the locator number on it. When there are not any problems, as happens most of the time, e-tickets are very convenient to use.  When problems arise, keep in mind the very first thing you should do is to convert them to paper tickets and it may make things so much easier to deal with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve always avoided E-tickets, since based on my personal experiences I lose airline tickets a lot less often than the airlines lose me (I’ve never lost an airline ticket, the airlines have misplaced my reservations several times).  This time I had e-tickets because I booked tickets on Reno Air SFO-SNA-SFO via their www site and it doesn’t have any other options. The outbound flight was no problem (I did have to give them my record locator number, they couldn’t find our tickets based on my last time). The return was more interesting: My wife, daughter, and I were in the gate area waiting for our 6:41 pm SNA-SFO flight.  At 6:15 they announced that because of weather and associated air-traffic delays in SFO our flight was being cancelled and they would put us on their 7:55 pm flight.  But because of the same weather/ATC delays that flight wouldn’t be leaving until 9:00pm at the earliest.  This would put us into SFO around 10:15pm, and by the time we drove home it would have been a very long day for our 2 year old daughter (who had managed not to nap that day because of Disneyland excitement). Checking the computer screens, the other options were: UA SNA-SFO 6:40pm  but was also showing delayed on the screens AK SNA-OAK 7:35pm  but that doesn’t arrive into OAK until 8:49, so by the                    time we get to SFO and home it’s very late. AA SNA-SJC 6:30pm  being in SJC isn’t great, but I know there is a SJC-SFO                    bus and my parents live 15 minutes from SJC so if                    needed we can get a ride to SFO from them. I explained to the gate agent at Reno we’d like to try for the AA flight. She said that she couldn’t help us, they weren’t going to allow people to take non-Reno Air flights.  I explained to her that perhaps she hadn’t heard but American purchased Reno Air and they were all one big happy airline now.  I pointed out that the agent at the ticket counter had even put our Reno Air boarding passes into an American ticket folder. But she said that as far as she knew Reno Air and American were still different airlines.  At the same time I overheard a different gate agent tell a passenger that if he took his ticket to Alaska Airlines they might be willing to take it as-is, so we decided to see if American would take our tickets as is. Luckily SNA is small, so the walk to the American gate wasn’t too long, and yes, they’d be happy to put us on their SJC flight, but it was leaving in 10 minutes and they couldn’t accept Reno Air’s E-ticket.  If we’d had a paper ticket it would be no problem.  They suggested that I might have time to return to the Reno Air gate and have them print paper tickets (American had already finished boarding the plane, but the door was still open).  I ran back to the Reno gate, which now had a long line of people trying to deal with the cancelled flight.  So I ran to the ticket counter, explained my situation to the agent and she proceeded to attempt to convert our e-tickets to paper tickets.  Long story short, she finally did it (some problem about have to de-assign our seats first).  Unfortunately she had no idea how to get our luggage on the American flight, she suggested that it would be offloaded unto baggage carousel 4 and that I should go and get it So now it’s 6:25, I ran back to the gate, gave my wife the tickets, said "I’m going to find our luggage, don’t leave without me".  I ran downstairs to the baggage office.  Talked to a amazingly competent woman named Jennifer, who not only understood what had happened, but also what I needed her to do, and, most surprisingly, why I was in a hurry. Anway, we just made the flight and got home around 10:00pm (our daughter fell asleep in the car and we transferred her to bed without waking her).  Now I’m waiting for our luggage to arrive, but I spoke to Jennifer late last night and she had found it and was sending it to SJC on this mornings flight, so I’m optimistic. marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann Abort, Retry, Fail?                                   |

Response:

I’ve always avoided E-tickets, since based on my personal experiences I lose airline tickets a lot less often than the airlines lose me (I’ve never lost an airline ticket, the airlines have misplaced my reservations several times).  This time I had e-tickets because I booked tickets on Reno Air SFO-SNA-SFO via their www site and it doesn’t have any other options. The outbound flight was no problem (I did have to give them my record locator number, they couldn’t find our tickets based on my last time). The return was more interesting: My wife, daughter, and I were in the gate area waiting for our 6:41 pm SNA-SFO flight.  At 6:15 they announced that because of weather and associated air-traffic delays in SFO our flight was being cancelled and they would put us on their 7:55 pm flight.  But because of the same weather/ATC delays that flight wouldn’t be leaving until 9:00pm at the earliest.  This would put us into SFO around 10:15pm, and by the time we drove home it would have been a very long day for our 2 year old daughter (who had managed not to nap that day because of Disneyland excitement). Checking the computer screens, the other options were: UA SNA-SFO 6:40pm  but was also showing delayed on the screens AK SNA-OAK 7:35pm  but that doesn’t arrive into OAK until 8:49, so by the                    time we get to SFO and home it’s very late. AA SNA-SJC 6:30pm  being in SJC isn’t great, but I know there is a SJC-SFO                    bus and my parents live 15 minutes from SJC so if                    needed we can get a ride to SFO from them. I explained to the gate agent at Reno we’d like to try for the AA flight. She said that she couldn’t help us, they weren’t going to allow people to take non-Reno Air flights.  I explained to her that perhaps she hadn’t heard but American purchased Reno Air and they were all one big happy airline now.  I pointed out that the agent at the ticket counter had even put our Reno Air boarding passes into an American ticket folder. But she said that as far as she knew Reno Air and American were still different airlines.  At the same time I overheard a different gate agent tell a passenger that if he took his ticket to Alaska Airlines they might be willing to take it as-is, so we decided to see if American would take our tickets as is. Luckily SNA is small, so the walk to the American gate wasn’t too long, and yes, they’d be happy to put us on their SJC flight, but it was leaving in 10 minutes and they couldn’t accept Reno Air’s E-ticket.  If we’d had a paper ticket it would be no problem.  They suggested that I might have time to return to the Reno Air gate and have them print paper tickets (American had already finished boarding the plane, but the door was still open).  I ran back to the Reno gate, which now had a long line of people trying to deal with the cancelled flight.  So I ran to the ticket counter, explained my situation to the agent and she proceeded to attempt to convert our e-tickets to paper tickets.  Long story short, she finally did it (some problem about have to de-assign our seats first).  Unfortunately she had no idea how to get our luggage on the American flight, she suggested that it would be offloaded unto baggage carousel 4 and that I should go and get it So now it’s 6:25, I ran back to the gate, gave my wife the tickets, said "I’m going to find our luggage, don’t leave without me".  I ran downstairs to the baggage office.  Talked to a amazingly competent woman named Jennifer, who not only understood what had happened, but also what I needed her to do, and, most surprisingly, why I was in a hurry. Anway, we just made the flight and got home around 10:00pm (our daughter fell asleep in the car and we transferred her to bed without waking her).  Now I’m waiting for our luggage to arrive, but I spoke to Jennifer late last night and she had found it and was sending it to SJC on this mornings flight, so I’m optimistic. marcos — Not ready reading .signature                          |    Marcos H. Woehrmann

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Question:

It has allowed organizations to do away with large numbers of administrative and secretarial staff– at least in performance auditing (not accounting, I know). | I have to  do a presentation on the effects of computers in today’s | accounting world. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little | insight of the effects of them. Thank you! | |                              Billy |One of the biggest differences the computer has made in my life it has |allowed me to continue working

To me it is truly frightening to consider that the transition to an information society which began in the early part of this century, is nearly complete, i.e. we’re all working in offices. It is almost axiomatic that computers, especially when combined with communication abilities, will be able to perform many of the activities performed by humans in administering the economy. The danger easy to understand -you’d have to be dumb as a doorpost to miss it… we must stop accepting money for reading and viewing and analyzing numbers and data themselves.  It is a sin.  It is exploitation of your client.  The punishment shall be losing those clients, as soon as they obtain the means to obtain financial analyses electronically, to send invoices electronically, receive them and pay them electronically, etc.  Accountants want to be far away from the clerical processes as possible when that day comes. We must also be far away from reportwriting.  Reports and analyses of every variety will be available. Instead we must move to a higher level of abstraction. We must direct the computer to feed streams of data from place to place. We must configure it, manage it, negotiate with data interface providers on price/performance.   We must decide what data is sensitive, and what is not.  We must decide who will be allowed access, who should not, and how to control that. We must search for software and select wisely. We must find wellsprings of data, of business opportunity, into which to connect.  We must be alert to the trap, the closed system, the company store. There is a real good article in Atlantic Monthly this month, Francis Fukuyama, The Great Disruption.  This will take an hour or two.  Fukuyama isn’t a genius. But he raises it to a high enough vantage point to understand where we are at right now, historically. While you’re at it read Lester Thurow’s last month, http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/current/9906thurow.htm "There are no institutional substitutes for individual entrepreneurial change agents. CAPITALISM is a process of creative destruction. The new destroys the old. Both the creation and the destruction are essential to driving the economy forward. Entrepreneurs are central to the process of creative destruction; they bring the new technologies and the new concepts into active commercial use. They are the change agents of capitalism. "

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In addition to the reduction of workloads it has greatly enhanced our ability to gather information and receive it much more timely.  First if you were asked "how many new customers did we get from the southeast last month" and you had to search through all the invoices for the month and determine which ones where new then count them by hand only for your boss to then say "how much is that expressed as a percent of total customers invoiced last month".  Doing this project by hand could, depending on size take days, weeks or even months.  Yet with computers we can obtain that information with a keystroke and the report is produced.  Because this type of information can be gathered without much effort the demand for this information continues to increase.  I have yet to install a new computer system that did not increase labor requirements for the company.  While the number of clerical and data entry people inevitably decline the number of high level skilled personnel required to collect, manage, distribute and decipher this information tends to increase. Secondly because the can now be collected and reported in a timely fashion corporations can spot trends both on the rise and decline much sooner and react to those changes thus changing the direction of the company as trends change.  This reduces waste as stockouts happen less frequently and outdated stock is reduced.  The effect is lower pricing in the long run. Many stores now collect data to help predict future sales.  For example grocery stores are developing customer profiles with the use of discount cards.  They issue the cards to customers who have them scanned when they shop and thus take advantage of any computerized discounts within the store.  What the store gets is a profile of every shopping trip.  How often and what they buy.  They develop profiles of a typical shopping trip and types of items that customers are buying.  Again helping to spot trends and develop future projections.  This type of info would never have been accessible prior to the advent of technology. Don

  It has allowed organizations to do away with large numbers of   administrative and secretarial staff– at least in performance   auditing (not accounting, I know).  Auditors used to hand write report   and then turn them over to secretaries who typed them.  Few changes   were made to reports.  Now, the auditors generally write their   findings and consolidate into reports without the intervention of the   administrative and secretarial staff.  Automation allows changes for   the most petty of reasons in the pursuit of perfection.   Auditors   have more pressure to do things formerly done by others.  Auditors   now, more than ever, need writing skills.     Automated workpapers will soon feed into reports.. indeed, some may be   doing this already.  I think Air Force performance/financial auditors   may already use such techniques.     |   |   | I have to  do a presentation on the effects of computers in today’s   | accounting world. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little   | insight of the effects of them. Thank you!   |   |                              Billy   |One of the biggest differences the computer has made in my life it has   |allowed me to continue working.  Chronic health problems and severe   |repetitive stress injuries have cost me full use of my hands and health   |problems mean I tire easily and haven’t been able to work a traditional   |9-5 day in 10 yrs.   |   |I am very dependent on my computer for work.  I use voice recognition   |technology to do high volumes of data entry related to accounting, to   |dictate letters to the word processor and with some aspects of my   |spreadsheets.   |   |With my limited ability to write  and type there would be many jobs I   |could no longer do.   |   |Without the computer I would be doing a minimum wage part time job   |somewhere that didn’t require writing or heavy lifting.   |   |I have met others who are completely dependent on their voice recogntion   |system and their computer to keep a job and run a business.   |   |I also use a tape recorder and dictation/transcription machine to record   |meetings and later play back tapes which I then dictate to the computer   |to summarize my notes.   |   |KG   |   |   |Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.   **Tippy**

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I have to  do a presentation on the effects of computers in today’s accounting world. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little insight of the effects of them. Thank you!                              Billy

Response:

I have to  do a presentation on the effects of computers in today’s accounting world. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little insight of the effects of them. Thank you!                              Billy

If you want some excellent reading on the future of computers and the internet in the accounting profession try to find archived copies of Todd Boyle’s post in this newsgroup.  

Response:

Start with an abacus, the first true counting machine. — __Stephen Russell Memphis VFP User Group – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to  do a presentation on the effects of computers in today’s accounting world. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little insight of the effects of them. Thank you!                              Billy

Response:

I have to  do a presentation on the effects of computers in today’s accounting world. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little insight of the effects of them. Thank you!                              Billy

One of the biggest differences the computer has made in my life it has allowed me to continue working.  Chronic health problems and severe repetitive stress injuries have cost me full use of my hands and health problems mean I tire easily and haven’t been able to work a traditional 9-5 day in 10 yrs. I am very dependent on my computer for work.  I use voice recognition technology to do high volumes of data entry related to accounting, to dictate letters to the word processor and with some aspects of my spreadsheets. With my limited ability to write  and type there would be many jobs I could no longer do. Without the computer I would be doing a minimum wage part time job somewhere that didn’t require writing or heavy lifting. I have met others who are completely dependent on their voice recogntion system and their computer to keep a job and run a business. I also use a tape recorder and dictation/transcription machine to record meetings and later play back tapes which I then dictate to the computer to summarize my notes. KG Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

…. Time passes……. Bruce spends 3 hrs 1st learning how to "power search" on DejaNews, then power searching on this subject. Ok, my conclusions based on input from the 6 people that have responded thusfar and the 100’s of archived messages that I have read from DejaNews in this newsgroup are: 1)  Tell my wife that the slide out is out of the question ( the suggestion of a different tow vehicle would not leave enough budget for the trailer)  & go with the Lite version at 4800 dry weight.  I am looking at  the 1999 29′ model of either the Jayco Quest or Keystone Springdale Lite.  This will put full loaded weight at 6000 to 7000 lbs. (depending on how much junk my wife wants to take :-}.  Well below Roberts estimate (admittedly way High) of 9500lbs., and still below the ‘98 model book towing weight. 2) Spend the extra money on the pullrite hitch (Yes I know that the hensley is safer, etc but the $1600 price difference is ridiculous). Thanks to all who responded,  and to all who will respond. (even F.S…… If that’s the worst flame I get, I feel pretty lucky!)  This is definitely the most complete answer I have ever had to a newsgroup question that I have asked.  Thanks especially to those who looked up the various tow ratings! OK, now anyone had experience positive or negative with the two brands?(1999 ~29′ model of either the Jayco Quest or Keystone Springdale Lite) Bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am a newbie to this group and soon to be a newbie to RV’ing. We are looking into a travel trailer to tow behind my 1986 Chev Suburban 1/2 ton 350. Notwithstanding the bafflegab from people who think a Suburban can tow Mt Rushmore, yours will not safely tow a trailer of the weight you are considering.  Do a search on dejanews for this NG for untold hundreds of good posts on this subject.  Bottom line: don’t try to tow more than about 3/4 of the MAX rating for your rig. Will KD3XR

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Chris You did pretty good, but let me try to correct one error. The GCWR is not the GVWR + Maximum trailer weight. The GCWR is a weight rating and is the allowable maximum weight of the whole rig (Truck+Trailer + all cargo in either truck or trailer). The GCWR value is established by the manufacturer of the truck, just like the GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). Remember that the GCWR and GVWR are not specifically the weights of anything. The key word is "Rating". They are allowable weight maximums, not to exceed.  The GVWR is for the truck alone and the GCWR is for the combination. I made some additional comments , indented below, following your statements.

snipped a bunch GCWR (Gross Combination Weight Rating) = max. allowable weight of truck, trailer, equipment, payload, fuel & occupants.  It is the GVWR plus the maximum allowable trailer weight.

First sentence is correct. Second sentence is incorrect and should be deleted. You can only calculate where you are relative to the maximum specified by the supplied GCWR. snipped some But the Guide numbers are a little different than those from the brochure you cite. GCWR would be 6800 GVWR + 6500 trailer max. = 13,300, right? 13,300 – 5400 (GVW, i.e. scale weight of Sub) = 7900 75% of 7900 = 5,925, which would mean if trailer is 5800 lbs, my friend is trailering at 73.4%.

You don’t get to calculate the GCWR. That is a given specification. Consider the following: When the manufacturer specifies a GCWR of 12,000# for your vehicle and also specifies a maximum trailer weight of 6500#, they know that your tow vehicle nominally weighs about 5500#. Therefore, 12,000 -5500# = 6500#. If you were to put an extra 500# of camping cargo in your tow vehicle it would weigh about 6000#. In this case you would no longer be allowed a maximum trailer weight of 6500#. Instead, it would be reduced to a maximum trailer weight of 6000#. If this trailer weight reduction were not made, you would be exceeding the GCWR. Hope this helps clarify Bob

Response:

one important error:    GCWR (Gross Combination Weight Rating) = max. allowable weight of truck, trailer, equipment, payload, fuel & occupants.  It is the GVWR plus the maximum allowable trailer weight.

I see a couple of other folks have responded but perhaps this will help: The max COMBINATION rating isn’t the tow rating plus the GVWR – it’s the maker’s idea of a ceiling for the whole outfit that should not be exceeded. The TOW rating is a ceiling too, but it applies only to what you hook onto.  As someone else pointed out, you can only tow the max tow load specified if (after adding cargo & passengers in the tow vehicle) you don’t exceed the GCWR. With all the research you’ve done up to now you may already know this, but let me emphasize that we’re suggesting that staying well below the maximum figures is not a legal or warranty issue – its a way of assuring a much safer, more comfortable drive.  It’s not a question of what CAN be done, but of what is safe and  manageable. There’s endless debate on the issue of whether the maker’s ratings are "conservative" or "liberal" – whatever those terms mean!  But after you have towed a few miles you’ll understand why the really experienced folks don’t exceed – or even push – the maximums. Will KD3XR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chris I may be mis-interpreting what you have stated or you may have a mis-interpretation. When the NG states that you should not try to tow more than about 3/4 of the maximum rating for your tow vehicle, this refers to the maximum tow rating established by the manufacturer. Typically this maximum rating will be determined by subtracting the tow vehicle weight from the GCWR(Gross Combination Weight Rating). There could be other factors, but this is typical. The GCWR value is not usually stamped on the driver door tag. The GCWR is typically provided in the manufacturers vehicle brochure or towing guide.  For GM products, the GCWR value is essentially dependent upon engine and rear gear ratio.  For example: Using a 1997 GM Truck Brochure, the GCWR for a 350 V8 and 3.73 ratio rear end is 12000#. The maximum tow rating would then be 12,000# – 5400#(weight of your Burb) = 6600#. Derating the maximum tow rating to 3/4 of the value would be: .75 X 6600# = 4950#. If you tried to tow the loaded horse trailer you would be at a 5800/6600 = 88% level, which is a little on the high side. Hope this clarifies or helps with the understanding. Bob

Bob,         My thanks to you, and Will, for the prompt, and helpful follow up.  Some sculling around town yielded a copy of "1996 Chevy Truck Product Guide", (my post incorrectly identified the Sub as an ‘86, it’s a ‘96) which has spec info for all the pick ups, vans and SUV’s, a Trailer Towing section, and a Truck Definition section.  It’s a lot of material, and W’s comment about lengthy posts is acknowledged, so I’ll try to be succint in the hope that it helps other newbies. Stuff drawn from the Guide:         Weight ratings – Established by mfgr., represent weights that should not be exceeded.         GCWR (Gross Combination Weight Rating) = max. allowable weight of truck, trailer, equipment, payload, fuel & occupants.  It is the GVWR plus the maximum allowable trailer weight.         GVWR= maximum amount of weight allowable for the truck, all equipment, payload, fuel, and occupants         GVW= actual weight of entire vehicle & its contents (include fuel, occupants, cargo)         Trailer chart maximum weight for Sub. w/350V8 and 3.73 axle = 6500 lbs. Your methodolgy is correct, and mine was incorrect.  But the Guide numbers are a little different than those from the brochure you cite. GCWR would be 6800 GVWR + 6500 trailer max. = 13,300, right?   13,300 – 5400 (GVW, i.e. scale weight of Sub) = 7900 75% of 7900 = 5,925, which would mean if trailer is 5800 lbs, my friend is trailering at 73.4%.   It is worth emphasizing that it would be a very good idea, if one were "in the market" for a tow vehicle, to get your hands on this brochure or your mfgr’s equivalent.  There are about five (5) pages of charts and calculations involved, and changing one variable (engine, axle ratio, 1/2 vs. 3/4 or 1 tone) changes the final number.  And, as my part of this exercise has shown, it’s easy to make a mistake. Thanks to all who responded.  The strength of the group is the collective knowledge and experience of those who follow and post. I appreciate the help.

Response:

Chris I may be mis-interpreting what you have stated or you may have a mis-interpretation. When the NG states that you should not try to tow more than about 3/4 of the maximum rating for your tow vehicle, this refers to the maximum tow rating established by the manufacturer. Typically this maximum rating will be determined by subtracting the tow vehicle weight from the GCWR(Gross Combination Weight Rating). There could be other factors, but this is typical. The GCWR value is not usually stamped on the driver door tag. The GCWR is typically provided in the manufacturers vehicle brochure or towing guide.  For GM products, the GCWR value is essentially dependent upon engine and rear gear ratio.  For example: Using a 1997 GM Truck Brochure, the GCWR for a 350 V8 and 3.73 ratio rear end is 12000#. The maximum tow rating would then be 12,000# – 5400#(weight of your Burb) = 6600#. Derating the maximum tow rating to 3/4 of the value would be: .75 X 6600# = 4950#. If you tried to tow the loaded horse trailer you would be at a 5800/6600 = 88% level, which is a little on the high side. Hope this clarifies or helps with the understanding. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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other things): – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the sake of clarity, and to ensure that I understand the point, take the following example, which uses a friend’s vehicle: 1986 Suburban 350 V8 Model 10906 with/either factory or dealer installed tow package GVWR 6800 (from driver door tag) GAFR 3400   ( "        "        "      ") – front axle GAWR 3968  ( "        "       "       ") – rear axle Certified scale weights of above vehicle w/driver and full tank of gas and related "stuff" (here, horse stuff): 5400 lbs. total 2600 front axle 2800 rear axle Assumptions: use of a Class IV receiver and Reese tagalong weight distributing hitch, use of anti-sway control (either part of hitch or add on anti-sway unit) Proposed to be pulled:  Aluminum 2 horse trailer: 3400 lbs. empty                      5800 lbs. loaded       Tongue weight: don’t know this for certain because tongue scale hasn’t been used with the trailer fully loaded, but let’s assume 10% of fully loaded weight, i.e. 580 lbs. I  "Conventional towing wisdom" would be that you are adding 580 pounds to GVWR, total 5860, comfortably within the 6800 GVWR and comfortably within the maximums for both the front and rear axles of the Suburban. II.  The NG/Will’s 75% recommendation would change the math as follows:    GAVR:           6800    75% of 6800     5100 Bottom line:  no tow.  The scale weight with nothing being towed is 5400 already. Is this what we’re talking about here?

No.  It ain’t. In spite of all the work, you have left out key data: WOT IS THE TOW RATING?  You may well have to check with the tow rating stuff Chevy prints to dope it out, but the allowed GCWR (COMBINED weight of truck, cargo and trailer) will vary depending on the engine, axle, and extra quipment. It is good that you know the actual weight, because then you can calculate how much trailer GM thinks you can haul under ideal conditions, and THEN derate that number to the 75% number. I have read, but cannot confirm it from factory sources, that the GVWR ratings are extremely conservative.

You have ALSO read (if not, read it now) that some factory tow ratings are pretty radical. My favorite whipping boy on that score is the Jeep Cherokee – most models ‘rated’ to tow 5,000 lbs in spite of ample evidence that it’s foolish to try that much. "Conservative" is not a good word to describe most factory ratings, IMO. Consider that they are arrived at in a tug of war between engineers who have some level of data from testing & calculations, to accountants & lawyers pushing to protect against warranty claims & lawsuits, and marketing types eager to sell by claiming your Neon will pull a tri-axle Airstream.  What comes out in the end is really not subject to any rigid standard, but in most (if not all) cases is "ok" for fairly ideal conditions.  But if your travels involve long or steep grades, bad roads, freeway speeds, or driver inexperience, the factory limits are TOO high.  MOST CRUCIAL: the max load is positively dangerous in most cases in the even of a need for a sudden stop or emergency evasive maneuver. NOW do you see why experienced trailerist generally recommend you not exceed 75% of the max tow rating? Will KD3XR

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Hi, I am a newbie to this group and soon to be a newbie to RV’ing.   We are looking into a travel trailer to tow behind my 1986 Chev Suburban 1/2 ton 350.   Notwithstanding the bafflegab from people who think a Suburban can tow Mt Rushmore, yours will not safely tow a trailer of the weight you are considering.  Do a search on dejanews for this NG for untold hundreds of good posts on this subject.  Bottom line: don’t try to tow more than about 3/4 of the MAX rating for your rig.

For the sake of clarity, and to ensure that I understand the point, take the following example, which uses a friend’s vehicle: 1986 Suburban 350 V8 Model 10906 with/either factory or dealer installed tow package GVWR 6800 (from driver door tag) GAFR 3400   ( "        "        "      ") – front axle GAWR 3968  ( "        "       "       ") – rear axle Certified scale weights of above vehicle w/driver and full tank of gas and related "stuff" (here, horse stuff): 5400 lbs. total 2600 front axle 2800 rear axle Assumptions: use of a Class IV receiver and Reese tagalong weight distributing hitch, use of anti-sway control (either part of hitch or add on anti-sway unit) Proposed to be pulled:  Aluminum 2 horse trailer: 3400 lbs. empty                           5800 lbs. loaded       Tongue weight: don’t know this for certain because tongue scale hasn’t been used with the trailer fully loaded, but let’s assume 10% of fully loaded weight, i.e. 580 lbs. I  "Conventional towing wisdom" would be that you are adding 580 pounds to GVWR, total 5860, comfortably within the 6800 GVWR and comfortably within the maximums for both the front and rear axles of the Suburban. II.  The NG/Will’s 75% recommendation would change the math as follows:         GAVR:           6800         75% of 6800     5100 Bottom line:  no tow.  The scale weight with nothing being towed is 5400 already. Is this what we’re talking about here? BTW, I concur that the 75% makes a lot of sense.  I have pulled 85% but only after significantly beefing up tires, shocks, springs, adding a 2nd ATF cooler, and the experience is what everyone who’s done it describes:  on flat Interstate, fine; on long grades, not so fine, you can just feel everything (engine, transmission, cooling system) working hard, hard, hard.   The practical problem for the non-motorhome puller is, of course, obvious: more power and more towing capacity = more $$$, sometimes lots of it.  I imagine many would love to have a dedicated "puller", I know I would, something like a 172" wheelbase extended cab dually with a big block gas or diesel and one of those killer hitches from PullRite or Hensley.  That requires a minimum $30K — $40K new and the thing just sits when you aren’t on the road.  And I imagine many would be bothered by the excessive consumption/materialism embodied in this approach, regardless of whether you can easily afford to write the check or not. Reading the posts it seems pretty clear that for most, there has to be some compromising.  You can shop for a used vehicle (which is where the diesels have some attraction if the oil changes are documented, since they go longer between overhauls); you can buy a smaller travel or other type trailer; you can resign yourself to the fact that, if running in the 80% and higher range fully loaded and towing, you should run slower and make lots of allowances for the fact that your margin of safety and/or error is significantly less than those running 75% or less. The problem that I have seen, albeit not here since by definition people that post or read on this NG are interested enough in the issues to look for information and advice, is people that have not given any thought at all to the issues (physics and otherwise) involved in going down the road with 12,000 or 13,000 lbs, or more, and just taking at face value what they’re told by the sellers of the various equipment.  It doesn’t take a lot of thought to see that there is an inherent conflict between those who make and sell tow vehicles and those who make and sell things meant to be towed.  The former want you to stay well under the rating limits of what they’re selling you; the latter want the option of going up to the ratings limits so as to enpand the universe of possible choices of products available for your purchase. I have read, but cannot confirm it from factory sources, that the GVWR ratings are extremely conservative.  This makes sense, since any mfgr. today has to know that people will do things that were never intended. The lack of postings about crashes caused by axles, tires and wheels collapsing under excess weight gives some credence to this guess.  It does not however, address the central point that I see as underlying the 75% recommendation:  when s*&# happens out there involving the need for a quick stop or a quick lane change or when some 60 footer goes by you doing 90 mph (and I clocked a 60 foot tractor trailer at 95 mph, up and down hills, couple of months ago) and the draft hits you, then you have a lot more chance of getting through it if you aren’t towing near the max. End of soapbox.  Be careful out there.

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…. Time passes……. Bruce spends 3 hrs 1st learning how to "power search" on DejaNews, then power searching on this subject. Ok, my conclusions based on input from the 6 people that have responded thusfar and the 100’s of archived messages that I have read from DejaNews in this newsgroup are: 1)  Tell my wife that the slide out is out of the question ( the suggestion of a different tow vehicle would not leave enough budget for the trailer)  & go with the Lite version at 4800 dry weight.  I am looking at  the 1999 29′ model of either the Jayco Quest or Keystone Springdale Lite.  

I still don’t like the length.  We don’t hove too much trouble with our Hi-lo in cross winds, but we traveled through Iowa last summer ahead of some heavy-duty thunderstorms (we even had to hide under an overpass while they went by) and the cross winds effected our rig in ways that didn’t please me.  I don’t think any hitch made is going to change this, myself.  I believe the problem is that you’ would be towing something which presents the broad side of a barn to the wind. Even if weight weren’t a consideration, I wouldn’t go over about 26 without a heavier tow vehicle. — Doing things that make the international man cringe…

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Anyone out there with a Chev 350 that upgraded to a bigger heavier trailer and really noticed the "pull"?  (or am I just a worry wart?)

I had a Chev 350 PU 1500, The camper dealer said the PU would do the job, pull with no trouble, so I purchased the GVW camper 7300 lbs 1st camping trip was to Panama City Fl 410 miles from home we dropped down under 40 mph on some hills and it was a real struggle for the PU gas mileage dropped down to 9 mpg I should con fronted the dealer, but did not as I had 90,000 miles on my chev, I just have purchased a 99 Ford SD Power Stroke Diesel, will try iy out in a few days, but my 350 would not handle less than 7300 lbs as I did not put much in it on the 1st trip. Elzie Speir

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Thanks to all who responded,  and to all who will respond. (even F.S…… If that’s the worst flame I get, I feel pretty lucky!)  This is definitely the most complete answer I have ever had to a newsgroup question that I have asked.  Thanks especially to those who looked up the various tow ratings!

are a select frew in the NG who have made it an advocation to expouse passed is indeed educating and extremely valuable. Fred in AZ

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Agreeing with folks in here…  Don’t tow more than your vehicle can safely handle…  1/2 ton is unlikely to find much with a slide that it can safely handle.  We couldn’t do it, and our Dodge is rated at 8100 lbs instead of 6500 As far as the trailers, we looked at both last winter at the show…  I remember being in the Keystone, and didn’t feel like the quality was particularly good. It just didn’t have the solid feel, although this assessment is far too subjective to be meaningful…….   I’d take a good look at both, crawl around under the cabinets, poke walls and push on things, look inside cupboards and cabinets for workmanship and to see if there are any spare parts laying around……   At that time, the salespeople at the show were saying these were brand new units for the production line where they were being made.  So perhaps they were just early production units and still had some things to work out? In any case, we wound up with a small Jayco 5th…

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Sorry, That was really more a complement to the group, than a complaint about the post.  I guess I was initially kind of defensive from experiences with other newsgroups.  You should have seen the fire when I asked advise in rec.pets.birds before we purchased our Umbrella Cockatoo!  I think I might still be singed. BTW, I just saw a footprint of a 26′ in a simular configuaration that only dry’s at 4050 lbs.  I hope to look into that. Bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to all who responded,  and to all who will respond. (even F.S…… If that’s the worst flame I get, I feel pretty lucky!)  This is definitely the most complete answer I have ever had to a newsgroup question that I have asked.  Thanks especially to those who looked up the various tow ratings! are a select frew in the NG who have made it an advocation to expouse passed is indeed educating and extremely valuable. Fred in AZ

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….. Time passes……. Bruce spends 3 hrs 1st learning how to "power search" on DejaNews

Congratulations for following good advice and doing some research. All your conclusions are valid IMO except: . . . [buy] pullrite hitch (Yes I know that the hensley is safer

In my opinion there’s NO measurable difference in safety between these two hitches – and there is SOME argument in favor of the Pullrite have a slight safety advantage (though I think it is largely theoretical) because the pivot point remains constant regardless of angle.   Instead, the Hensley advantages relate to issues OTHER than safety, such as convenience, turning radius, etc. Bottom line: choosing Pullrite over Hensley does not carry a safety penalty, IMO. Will KD3XR

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Hi, I am a newbie to this group and soon to be a newbie to RV’ing.  We are looking into a travel trailer to tow behind my 1986 Chev Suburban 1/2 ton 350.  We have decided that the unit we pick will be a  29 – 30ft unit with bunk beds in the back for the kids and the queen up front for us. My biggest issue, is deciding on the slide-out feature.  We like the extra room of the slide-out, and the extra cost is not that much, the big issue for me (this is really the question) is the weight. The standard trailers dry weight at just under 5000 lbs.  The slide out’s add about 1500 lbs to the equation. Ok, so with my Chevy 350, is that extra 1500 lbs going to make a big difference going up hills,  wear & tear on my transmission, etc.?  Or am I just worrying over nothing? Thanks in advance Bruce

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It depends on the tow vehicle’s max tow rating. You should consider the trailer’s loaded  and ready to travel weight. You should have a safety margin of 10 to 25% of Max tow rating just to be safe. Brian

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OK,  The dealer says I can tow up to $10,000 lbs. (w/ trans cooler & oil cooler), so either trailer would be within the safety limits fully loaded, my concern is just how much difference that 1500 lbs. will make say, going camping in Colorado, etc. Anyone out there with a Chev 350 that upgraded to a bigger heavier trailer and really noticed the "pull"?  (or am I just a worry wart?) Bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It depends on the tow vehicle’s max tow rating. You should consider the trailer’s loaded  and ready to travel weight. You should have a safety margin of 10 to 25% of Max tow rating just to be safe. Brian

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OK,  The dealer says I can tow up to $10,000 lbs. (w/ trans cooler & oil cooler), so either trailer would be within the safety limits fully loaded, my concern is just how much difference that 1500 lbs. will make say, going camping in Colorado, etc. Anyone out there with a Chev 350 that upgraded to a bigger heavier trailer and really noticed the "pull"?  (or am I just a worry wart?) Bruce

Where did the 10,000 pounds come from? A 350 v-8 in a half ton pickup was only rated about 7000-7500 pounds with full towing package and a 3.73 axle ratio. I think you are being given some wrong info about the Suburban. It has the same drive train as the pickup and is a heavier vehicle itself. — Don Dickson

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Y’know   I kind of thought he answered me kind of fast.  The problem then becomes I don’t have the manual, and a 1986 manual may be kind of hard to come by.  The trailer dealer had a tow rating book, but it only went back to 1990.  With the body style change I think the ratings may(?) be different. Are tow rating books available back to 1986? If indeed my vehicle is really rated at 7000-7500 lbs., that makes the decision then doesn’t it.  No slide out. :-{ Bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK,  The dealer says I can tow up to $10,000 lbs. (w/ trans cooler & oil cooler), so either trailer would be within the safety limits fully loaded, my concern is just how much difference that 1500 lbs. will make say, going camping in Colorado, etc. Anyone out there with a Chev 350 that upgraded to a bigger heavier trailer and really noticed the "pull"?  (or am I just a worry wart?) Bruce Where did the 10,000 pounds come from? A 350 v-8 in a half ton pickup was only rated about 7000-7500 pounds with full towing package and a 3.73 axle ratio. I think you are being given some wrong info about the Suburban. It has the same drive train as the pickup and is a heavier vehicle itself. — Don Dickson

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Hi, I am a newbie to this group and soon to be a newbie to RV’ing.   We are looking into a travel trailer to tow behind my 1986 Chev Suburban 1/2 ton 350.  

Notwithstanding the bafflegab from people who think a Suburban can tow Mt Rushmore, yours will not safely tow a trailer of the weight you are considering.  Do a search on dejanews for this NG for untold hundreds of good posts on this subject.  Bottom line: don’t try to tow more than about 3/4 of the MAX rating for your rig. Will KD3XR

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OK,  The dealer says I can tow up to $10,000 lbs.

Do I see a Freudian $lip there? The dealer is saying this because SOME GM vehicles are rated to tow up to 5 tons, and because he sees $$$$$$. Your 1/2-ton Suburban regardless of engine or features is not safe for that weight.   Will KD3XR

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I am a newbie to this group and soon to be a newbie to RV’ing.  We are looking into a travel trailer to tow behind my 1986 Chev Suburban 1/2 ton 350.  We have decided that the unit we pick will be a  29 – 30ft unit with bunk beds in the back for the kids and the queen up front for us. My biggest issue, is deciding on the slide-out feature.  We like the extra room of the slide-out, and the extra cost is not that much, the big issue for me (this is really the question) is the weight. The standard trailers dry weight at just under 5000 lbs.  The slide out’s add about 1500 lbs to the equation. Ok, so with my Chevy 350, is that extra 1500 lbs going to make a big difference going up hills,  wear & tear on my transmission, etc.?  Or am I just worrying over nothing?

With a 29-30ftr, you are probably at the limits of your Burban already and the slide will definately put you over. You neglected to mention the 1000-1500 extra pounds you need to add for all your necessaries. They add up quick. You will probably here in this NG that 75% is a magic number. (Whatever your tow vehicle is rated to handle, don’t go over 75% of that.) This is GOOD advice. I am at close to 100% rating with my van and 29ftr and while it tows well on interstates, it really works on hills in the rural areas we like to camp. If you must go this big, look at the lighter weight units. Forget the slide though. While the extra room is nice, I for one would not want to tow something in an overloaded state. I also highly reccomend using either a Hensley Arrow or a Pull-Rite hitch. These units make towing a pleasure and IMO much safer. (See the thread discussing these) Good luck and have fun!!! Jeff

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Hi, I am a newbie to this group and soon to be a newbie to RV’ing.  We are looking into a travel trailer to tow behind my 1986 Chev Suburban 1/2 ton 350.  We have decided that the unit we pick will be a  29 – 30ft unit with bunk beds in the back for the kids and the queen up front for us.

We have an ‘85, towing a 22-foot Hi-Lo.  My feeling is you need a bigger tow vehicle if you want such a large trailer.  You should take a look around at the weight the vehicle can tow, then try to find the weight of the trailer, not forgetting to include the weight of anything you might want to put in it such as water and propane.  I’d guess such a trailer would end up weighing well over the 5,000 pounds that is the max on my trailer.  We live in a reasonably flat part of the country, but end up towing through some pretty good hills.  There are places where our Suburban tends to struggle a bit, I don’t like going up a hill in 2nd gear wondering if it is going to have to shift into 1st, myself.   Along with checking weights, take a look in your glove box at the label.  It’ll mention what your axle ratio is.  We have a 3.42 which isn’t that great for towing, a 3.73 would be better, I believe.  The higher the number, the more low-end power you have available, and the more noise you’re going to get out of the engine at highway speeds. Another thing you should know is that with this vehicle you should not tow in overdrive.  This is mentioned in your owner’s manual, but I just thought I should mention it as well. Good luck. — Doing things that make the international man cringe…

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I have a chev 350 (and it is mounted in front of a 4 speed manual in a 3/4 ton pickup) and I would NOT even think of trying what you suggest. Unless of course I had the cemetery plots already bought and paid for for each member of your family, Really good life insurance, and at least a Million dollars worth of liability insurance. You may be able to pull it like the dealer stated, but he mention how many miles it would take to stop it? Did he mention how comfortable you would feel when hit by a 50mph cross wind? Now if you are really determined to pull a trailer that size with a 1/2 ton burb here is what you can do. Replace the front and rear axles and springs you have now with a set from under a 1 ton, make sure you have a 2 spd rear end. Of course with the duals sticking out the side of the burb you will have to do some body work to fit wide fenders on it. Next you really should change out the auto tranny and install a new 2 ton 4 speed in it as you will have to replace that old tranny pretty soon anyway (might as well do it up front). Oh yes I almost forgot. The heavier springs won’t bolt up to your light weight frame so you better get a heavier on of those also. (You wouldn’t want it to buckle up in the middle). And while you are at it (unless you don’t mind crawling up the hills at 20mph) you will need a larger power unit. May I suggest a 454cid. Now you are almost ready to go. All you have left is to get your state DOT to certify  that all the changes are legal and really do qualify you to do what you want to do. That could take a couple of years of paper work. ** Why not just get a larger pull vehicle to start out with. Lots quicker and cheaper in the long run. And as a side effect you may even live long enough to enjoy you family. ** Just my $.03 worth. By the way the largest trailer I’ve ever towed behind my 350 is a 16 ft. bumper mount horse trailer and it will swing the rig all over the road at times. Hope to see you on the road. Fred Schreier Please send email replies to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK,  The dealer says I can tow up to $10,000 lbs. (w/ trans cooler & oil cooler), so either trailer would be within the safety limits fully loaded, my concern is just how much difference that 1500 lbs. will make say, going camping in Colorado, etc. Anyone out there with a Chev 350 that upgraded to a bigger heavier trailer and really noticed the "pull"?  (or am I just a worry wart?) Bruce It depends on the tow vehicle’s max tow rating. You should consider the trailer’s loaded  and ready to travel weight. You should have a safety margin of 10 to 25% of Max tow rating just to be safe. Brian

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Bruce I just happen to have an old Towing Guide put out by Trailer Life. This book covers the years 1986 trough 1990. According to this guide, it says that a Suburban(2wd) with 350 V8 is rated to tow 9000# with a 4.56 ratio rear end. A Suburban(4wd) with 350 V8 is rated to tow 8000# with a 4.10 ratio rear end. They provide no other data for other rear end ratios or differences in 1500 or 2500 chassis models. Not a very good guide. I then decided to go look at a GM trailer guide for the 1997 model year. They list a Suburban 1500 with 350 V8(5.7L) and 3.73 rear end as capable of 6500#. If I then use the GCWR(Gross Combination Weight Rating) chart, this indicates that the 350 V8 and 3.73 rear value is 12000#. This indicates that the Burb must weigh approx. 12000-6500 = 5500#. Now using the GCWR chart again, I can extrapolate up to the 350V8 and 4.56 rear which gives 15,000#. With a Burb weight of 5500#, this would seem to indicate that you could tow 15,000-6000=9500#. This is in pretty good agreement, little on the high side, with the old Trailer Life guide. After all of this high math I believe that we could use the 1997 GM guide as being reasonably representative for your vehicle. If that is true, the following ratings prevail. 1500 Suburban with 350 V8 and 2wd 3.42 rear = 5500# 3.73 rear = 6500# 4.10 rear = 8000# 4wd are 500# less in each case One final comment. Based on my own towing experiences with 1/2 ton(1500) and 3/4 ton(2500) pickup models, I would not care to go above 5000# fully loaded on a 1500 model. I also would recommend reducing the maximum tow ratings by 20 to 25 %. Oh yes, the extra 1500# (for slide )will make a substantial difference in towing performance, in my opinion. Bob

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OK,  The dealer says I can tow up to $10,000 lbs. (w/ trans cooler & oil cooler), so either trailer would be within the safety limits fully loaded, my concern is just how much difference that 1500 lbs. will make say, going camping in Colorado, etc. Anyone out there with a Chev 350 that upgraded to a bigger heavier trailer and really noticed the "pull"?  (or am I just a worry wart?)

Your dealer is less than completely honest.  I’ve got tow ratings back to 1992, and the 1500 Suburban with the 350 engine shows ratings of: 1992 – 7,000 lb (2WD)        6,500 lb (4WD) 1994 – 7,000 lb 1995 – 6,500 lb 1996 – 6,500 lb 1997 – 6,500 lb I don’t recall anything major being changed between 1986 and 1992 that would cause the tow rating to drop from 10,000 lb to 6,500 lb.  Note that properly equipped, the 2500 model WAS rated for 10,000 lb, but there’s a world of difference between a 1500 and a 2500 – it’s not just a badge upgrade. That being said, I would load up the trailer so that it’s ready for travel and get it to a scale to find out exactly what it weighs.  Knowing the so-called "dry" weight gives you a figure to use when comparing trailers but is pretty useless for matching thrailers up to tow vehicles.  I have never seen a single person start out on a trip with their trailer weighing anywhere close to "dry" weight.  If your "dry" weight is indeed 5,000 lb you can expect the real weight to be as much as 1000 lb (or more) higher, depending on what you’re carrying.  Add in the 1500 lb or so of slideout, and your Suburban is overloaded.  You need a 2500 Suburban with a 454 cid gas engine, and 4.1:1 gears to safely tow that trailer. — Alan Hepburn  (Email: Alan at Hepburn dot com) "…But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

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Question:

Does anyone have any experience using Microsoft Access with Accpac Plus accounting system for dos v6.5 made by Computer Associates. Thanks, Brent

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Does anyone have any experience using Microsoft Access with Accpac Plus accounting system for dos v6.5 made by Computer Associates. Thanks, Brent

Brent, Yes, lots of experience.  What do you want to know? Softline’s "ODBC Link" product lets you read (Std version) and optionally write (Pro version) directly to the proprietary Plus database.  ODBC Link is pretty indespensible for the Plus/Access projects.  Softline also has a .DLL if you are going to be doing a lot of programming where performance is very important. Note that the WSM (Windowing System Manager) is the Accpac International product at the 6.5 level.  The applications themselves are mostly at either 6.1A or 6.1B. You might also try http://www.accpaconline.com, look in the discussion forum titled "Plus Technical."  Post your questions in detail, the 3rdparty development community for Accpac Plus hangs out there. Regards, Jon (Accpac VAR in Chicago) PS Computer Associates is spinning off Accpac International, there was a press release last week about a pending IPO.

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MS Access & Accpac Does anyone have any experience using Microsoft Access with Accpac Plus accounting system for dos v6.5 made by Computer Associates. Thanks, Brent

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Brent, Softline Systems makes an ODBC interface that lets Access either just get the data ($395) or also manipulate it within AccPac ($595).  Check out their website. Ellen MS Access & Accpac Does anyone have any experience using Microsoft Access with Accpac Plus accounting system for dos v6.5 made by Computer Associates. Thanks, Brent

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I bashed around reading Accpac Data from Clipper in real time. Will help if I can. Doug Does anyone have any experience using Microsoft Access with Accpac Plus accounting system for dos v6.5 made by Computer Associates. Thanks, Brent Note that the WSM (Windowing System Manager) is the Accpac International product at the 6.5 level.  The applications themselves are mostly at either 6.1A or 6.1B.

True.

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Question:

There are people who prefer to appeal to experiment, when the theory is not quite secure: like this one for example… On the contrary, the theory is quite secure. /// Mark S. Bell  

Your parser took the not unreasonable default reference for ‘this one’, I see, using adjacency. MY parser could have been more explicit in referring the ‘this one’ fragment to ‘experiment’ rather than ‘theory’. Then you would have concluded (correctly) that my sentence structure makes no claims about the aerodynamic theory of flour-bags in moving airstreams – no matter how well you claim this ( ahem – the THEORY) is secured to reality. Now, where’s that ten-pin ball?         <grin Altus OK

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There are people who prefer to appeal to experiment, when the theory is not quite secure: like this one for example… On the contrary, the theory is quite secure.  It is the inability to model the flour bag, and it’s interaction with the environment, (at least due to the technical and economic constraints most of us have) that yields to the pragmatic approach.

Correct! You can be that if Clinton ordered the navy to drop flower bags out of Cessna’s they would have the exact formula. For the layman the point is more academic since its easier just to try it. The hardest part would be accounting for the change in wind resistance as the bag rotated and the possibility of the bag to bend concave on the underside which would slightly slow the rate of descent (acting a bit like a parachute). — Robert Gary

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There are people who prefer to appeal to experiment, when the theory is not quite secure: like this one for example…

On the contrary, the theory is quite secure.  It is the inability to model the flour bag, and it’s interaction with the environment, (at least due to the technical and economic constraints most of us have) that yields to the pragmatic approach. Often it’s not the bags that hit the target that are interesting, it’s the bags that hit other things that make for great conversation… Forget the flour bags…go for the bowling ball !! Regards Mark S. Bell                           412-268-7925 (Voice) Software Engineering Institute         412-268-5758 (Fax) Carnegie Mellon University             ** These are my opinions, 4500 Fifth Ave, Pittsburgh PA.,15213      not those of the SEI or CMU **

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Question:

Can anyone recommend a good resource about composting paper or for using shredded paper, newspaper or other types as a mulch in the garden??

"… good men must commit themselves to the glories of love."                                                Martin Luther King Jr.

Shredded newspaper is indeed a good mulch, like shredded leaves. I used to sneak into the copy room at work during lunch to shred stacks of paper for the garden. I also used the computer papers accounting shredded. Shredded paper is great bedding for composting worms, and an active worm pit can consume incredible amounts of it. I understand that paper can take the place of leaves or straw in composting — that is, it provides the dry, carbonaceous material. Regards, Robert

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Can anyone recommend a good resource about composting paper or for using shredded paper, newspaper or other types as a mulch in the garden?? Thanks — Thomas C. Waters I always assume someone is gay unless they tell me otherwise. "When evil men plot, good men must plan.  When evil men burn and bomb, good men must build and bind.  When evil men shout ugly words of hatred, good men must commit themselves to the glories of love."                                                 Martin Luther King Jr.

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I’ve used shredded paper in the compost heap (no coloured inks!) Are the colored inks really bad? If so, why?

Colors are created with the same chemicals/pigments paint is made from. Read the labels on paint for the hazards – chromium yellow, cadmium red are examples that cause liver damage. You could check with OSHA for a complete report.

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I’ve used newsprint added to clay soil to make it a bit better. — "You are not ready for Immortality" Kosh on Babylon 5

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Having just finished shredding my out-of-date records and bills from the early ’90s, I wonder if the shredded paper is useful in the compost pile along with the plant material I’ve added there.  Has anyone tried using shredded paper in the compost heap?  Did it make a worthwhile addition? Regards —

I work for Georgia-Pacific, and I can tell you that paper would work fine with your compost — it’s pine and hardwood pulp and will decompose fine.  The two things you’ll want to watch out for are the inks (both color and black).  The color can be toxic, and the black carries trace metallic elements.  The black shouldn’t hurt, as long as you don’t go whole hog and put in cartons and cartons and cartons. And if you have colored paper (like yellow post-it’s), you may want to avoid that, too.  The dye there is actually put in during the papermaking process. The other thing you’ll want to watch is the ph.  Depending on the process used to bleach the paper, it could raise or lower the acidity. Otherwise, go to it!  No only are you adding pulp, but it you use white office paper, you also be adding calcium to your compost.

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The shredded paper you have would be an excellent addition of carbon to your compost system.  Having shredded it is an added bonus!  Balance it with roughly equal volumes of garden waste that is still vibrant in color; like grass clippings, spent flowers and veggies (I know you have a lot of those this time of year ) and such.  these are rich in nitrogen.  Keep the pile moist and turn it as often as you can.  Great home recycling you’re doing! Kelly Slocum Vermiculture specialist Clark County Washington – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having just finished shredding my out-of-date records and bills from the early ’90s, I wonder if the shredded paper is useful in the compost pile along with the plant material I’ve added there.  Has anyone tried using shredded paper in the compost heap?  Did it make a worthwhile addition? Regards —

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I’ve used shredded paper in the compost heap (no coloured inks!)

Are the colored inks really bad? If so, why? Linda

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Jim, I’ve been using my shredded records in my compost for a few years.  My grass grows so fast I always have more grass clippings than I can leave on the lawn and more than the amount of dried leaves.  I mix them about half & half with the grass and the pile heats up well in a few days.  Turn the pile frequently and keep just moist.   Julie L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having just finished shredding my out-of-date records and bills from the early ’90s, I wonder if the shredded paper is useful in the compost pile along with the plant material I’ve added there.  Has anyone tried using shredded paper in the compost heap?  Did it make a worthwhile addition? Regards —

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I’ve used shredded paper in the compost heap (no coloured inks!) and it works fine if it’s spread thinly throughout as opposed to all in a lump (although even a lump will eventually break down). Also left a large bag of it out for a few years and when I finally went to add it to the compost heap it already had it’s own population of earthworms and other insects… I’ve also used finely shredded paper (about 1" x 1/16") to mulch under Rhododendrons, which certainly makes them stand out (until bark mulch was put on top!) and caused no problems — Leo Smit,   Mt Uniacke, Nova Scotia, Canada;                      USDA Zone 5, sort-of

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Having just finished shredding my out-of-date records and bills from the early ’90s, I wonder if the shredded paper is useful in the compost pile along with the plant material I’ve added there.  Has anyone tried using shredded paper in the compost heap?  Did it make a worthwhile addition? Regards —

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Having just finished shredding my out-of-date records and bills from the early ’90s, I wonder if the shredded paper is useful in the compost pile along with the plant material I’ve added there.  Has anyone tried using shredded paper in the compost heap?  Did it make a worthwhile addition? Regards —

I’ve read that a lot of people do it. I for one do not. I have enough grass clippings and leaves to supply all I need. John Huff Home Page: http://web2.airmail.net/jhu554

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I put shredded wet newspaper, only black and white, (the color ink isn’t good) as a base for garden beds in the spring.  It helps with water retention and it can be laid in sheets for weed block.  My guess is that it would take a while to compost.   Michele

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