Question:

hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Jim’s more objective about it than you are, Mike.  Given your problem, you’re not going to find a better solution. Joe Calypso Green ‘93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black ‘03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

I would suggest that if you aren’t willing to pay this small amount to get your vehicle fixed, that you are not being very realistic about what it takes to repair most things. The diagnostic computers, cables and the training needed to operate all of this is fairly expensive. The total operating costs for a repair business are very high and you are expected to pay for the time you use up. You are whining about a very small repair bill.

Response:

Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words….

Very well said. I can’t begin to imagine why he is complaining about such a tiny repair bill. It is truly amazing that he is mad because someone could actually fix his vehicle for such a small amount.

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

Mike, Why don’t you buy your own diagnostic computer, go to school for quite some time, buy all the tools you need for this job and than use your own connections to order the special parts you need. Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it. That is what a mechanic thinks when people bitch about paying for repair services. Claud

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective,  do ya jim? I would suggest that if you aren’t willing to pay this small amount to get your vehicle fixed, that you are not being very realistic about what it takes to repair most things. The diagnostic computers, cables and the training needed to operate all of this is fairly expensive. The total operating costs for a repair business are very high and you are expected to pay for the time you use up. You are whining about a very small repair bill.

I’d say it’s a normal screw job. Dealer repair bill, credit card, learning experience, priceless!

Response:

** let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me ** for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed ** there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. The money sounds pretty reasonable to me.  The diagnosis is what is worth it’s weight in gold; installing a part isn’t that big a deal, but hiring a specialist to properly diagnose a problem like this is where the magic happens, and most outfits need to collect about $75/hr. to make any money at all.  Kwitcherbellyachin and pay the man.  Or fix it yourself! I’m taking The Winter Beater in today for a very simple yet vexing problem: I dropped a bolt down into the pulley assembly, and it somehow managed to get behind the crank pulley and won’t come out.  Makes a hellacious amount of noise, and if I drive it much, it will eventually take out the seal and bearing.  It’s FWD (damn!) and the only way you can pull that crank pulley is to lift the engine out of the cradle – there is only 3/4" in. between the pulley and the frame.  Hellova design, I’ll tell ya.  The cost: $75.00/hr. for the man’s time, and I’ll gladly pay it.  I don’t expect these people to work for free.  I sure as hell wouldn’t. Regards, -JD JD’s Locally-Famous Mustang Page: http:/207.13.104.8/users/jdadams

Response:

Well I would have defeated the asinine shift interlock switch  with 10 cents worth of wire and two connectors( go figure, I know how to operate the gas and the brake pedal without big brother coddling me!) Problem solved.  But then again I know what to do. That must be worth something? Knowledge, Ability,Experience, Tools, Equipment, Facilities, Heating, Maintenance, Supplies, Fuel, Insurance etc. The longer my resume gets the more money I’d like to make. Do you work for free? Do you take a pay cut as you get more knowledgeable in your job? I estimate jobs for living. I’m pure overhead. I’m fairly well paid yet produce nothing but a "paper" quote. I’m literally paid for what I know. I have to figure my cost into a job and believe me nothing is free. I used to think in similar terms but have realized that people that have skills are well sought after and are usually worth spending the money on. The jobs are often done better and faster. You could spend days shopping around to save a few dollars but what is your time worth? Once you found someone that has a reasonable price (to you) and does good work, you should hang on to them. If you have issues with poor service that is another story. Vote with your wallet.  I do most of my car work myself but I like to say it takes a professional to know when to call another professional. There are some jobs better left to the people that know.  StuK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Mike, My ‘96 Contour has the same problem in extremely cold weather.  My shop looked at it and a slight oil leak.  Said it’d take $800 because you have to get the entire shifter from FoMoCo.  No individual parts available.  Or, they’d take out the interlock for < $200.  I decided to exercise my right arm and force it to work until warmer weather comes along.  They snugged up the bolts on the oil pan and transmission.  The leak stopped.  Cost me $29. — John If you Reply, be sure and remove the " (DELETE_THIS) " from the email address.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

John, I don’t want to sound like the devils advocate but I have to wonder about your shop. We have nowhere near the useless litigation that those in the states experience (though we appear to be catching up)….. I steadfastly refuse to enter into a modification that will render a safety device inoperative. While hacking the repair might save a few bucks, there is the ever so slight chance that I might be named correspondant in a criminal neglect case. The accountants mistake will get you a slap on the wrist, the shoe salesmans mistake will make your feet hurt…… my mistake can make someone very, very dead. Our automobiles are fun to drive, they offer us freedom our forebears could never even dream of, they are a convenience device that ever so many of us heartless beast waiting for us to unleash the deathly power that they have (a little too dramatic????) – the car is a machine and it really doesn’t care who lives and who dies but we have the "power" to control it…. Sorry if it sounds like I’m venting… your post just set us up for something I wanted to say sooner or later…. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, My ‘96 Contour has the same problem in extremely cold weather.  My shop looked at it and a slight oil leak.  Said it’d take $800 because you have to get the entire shifter from FoMoCo.  No individual parts available.  Or, they’d take out the interlock for < $200.  I decided to exercise my right arm and force it to work until warmer weather comes along.  They snugged up the bolts on the oil pan and transmission.  The leak stopped.  Cost me $29. —

Response:

Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Jim, Can I use your words on the next customer who just wants "a cheap fix"? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, I don’t want to sound like the devils advocate but I have to wonder about your shop. We have nowhere near the useless litigation that those in the states experience (though we appear to be catching up)….. I steadfastly refuse to enter into a modification that will render a safety device inoperative. While hacking the repair might save a few bucks, there is the ever so slight chance that I might be named correspondant in a criminal neglect case. The accountants mistake will get you a slap on the wrist, the shoe salesmans mistake will make your feet hurt…… my mistake can make someone very, very dead. Our automobiles are fun to drive, they offer us freedom our forebears could never even dream of, they are a convenience device that ever so many of us heartless beast waiting for us to unleash the deathly power that they have (a little too dramatic????) – the car is a machine and it really doesn’t care who lives and who dies but we have the "power" to control it…. Sorry if it sounds like I’m venting… your post just set us up for something I wanted to say sooner or later…. Jim Warman

Response:

I think I agree with Jim although when my temperature gauge was acting up several months ago, staying normal then shooting up, I thought it was a malfunctioning thermostate.  Then on a Wednesday when I had to get to the office for a conference call it "needled" about a block from Worthington Ford in Long Beach, CA.  So there I go and got a ride to the office.  So they said it was a clogged cooling system and radiator (replaced it 2 years ago) and needed new radiator, power flushing, hoses, etc. Since it’s a 90 LX 5.0 with only 90,000 miles on it I agreed.  Repair bill less than a year’s payments on a new car.  The "power flush" blew out the heater core and I ended up spending over $3,000.  That of course included a new clutch which I went for since the shop who works on my 67 Dodge R/T quoted $200 more. In summary, I don’t particularly like going to dealers for repairs but Jim isw right about the complexity of today’s machines and a dealer does have a reputation to protect.  So I guess we need to suck it up.  The old days are gone when a mechanis/technitian works for $10 an hour. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between

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Response:

Well Put

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along. Any techs reading this…. just remember, we didn’t design them…. we didn’t build them……. most important – we didn’t break them. Unfortunately, come time for a customer to be upset, we are a little too handy 8^) An aside…. thankfully this wasn’t my Saturday to work…. another tech finished off a job I started Friday (normally doesn’t happen, but in this case….). Taurus with a pooched head and what looks like bits of piston welded to one spark plug…… Customer insists on having a new set of Motorcrafts installed and he’ll drive it home. I sure hope he doesn’t live too far away….. But we all know who will be blamed for the "no fix".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, Can I use your words on the next customer who just wants "a cheap fix"?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along. Any techs reading this…. just remember, we didn’t design them…. we didn’t build them……. most important – we didn’t break them. Unfortunately, come time for a customer to be upset, we are a little too handy 8^) An aside…. thankfully this wasn’t my Saturday to work…. another tech finished off a job I started Friday (normally doesn’t happen, but in this case….). Taurus with a pooched head and what looks like bits of piston welded to one spark plug…… Customer insists on having a new set of Motorcrafts installed and he’ll drive it home. I sure hope he doesn’t live too far away….. But we all know who will be blamed for the "no fix".

 Very interesting thread. Being a dreaded Service Writer, I expected a huge flame war against dealers. I was pleasantly surprised.   And Jim is very, very correct in his statements. A refurbished SBDS diagnostic machine is 15G’s. REFURB. But it’s almost obsolete. Now you gotta have the WDS.. bye bye 10 grand.. someone has to pay for this equipment. Guess who that is? The customer. This is why the labor rate is what it is. And for you folks paying $75/hr for labor, you’re getting a deal. From the latest reports I have heard, the average labor rate in the San Francisco area is $125/hr. Cars are unbelievably complex now. You know that big thing called the internet? It’s a big computer network that spans the globe. Guess what? There’s a network in your new car too. Yup. It’s called CAN, and it’s an actual network in your car. No longer is it needed to have 3 different speed sensors for 3 different control modules in your vehicle. 1 sensor can be used, and the data shared over the CAN with all the modules. Wanna know something else that’s coming? 42V electrical systems. Yes.. the current requirements for all of the systems on a car, plus the stuff they want to put on them, is almost to the point of overloading the current 12V system. The traditional starter? GONE.. The traditional alternator? GONE. Replaced by electromagnetic coils in the flywheel assy. Power steering pump? Electric.. Water pump? Electric. The revolution in automotive technology has just begun. Just wait..   The dealer has to be able to fix *anything*  If you take your car to 10 different shops and they can’t fix it, where do you end up? The dealer. Sorry, but it costs a lot of money for training, equipment, overhead, etc to be able to repair vehicles at the dealer level. I had a customer spend over $800 dollars at independent shops on O2 sensor, MAF sensor, crank angle sensor, etc, etc, on his 2001 Taurus that he NEVER NEEDED!. That’s right, the independents lacked the technical skill and knowledge to correctly diagnose the problem. Just because there is a DTC for an EGR system problem does not make a bad EGR valve. Wanna know something? The *real* fix cost him $175.00. Wanna know what it was? A bad connector at the Mass Air Flow sensor. Yup. $975 to get his car fixed, when it could have only cost him a connector and pins. He learned his lesson.   What you really pay for is knowledge. Time is just a convenient way to attach a certain dollar amount to the amount of skill and knowledge it will take to repair something. If you want to pay $25/hour for labor, then you’ll get what you pay for.  Sorry for the ramble.. Michael

Response:

Jim, where are you?  I’m just curious with the Telus e-mail….  if you’re close to me, I’ll come by and see you next time my 5.0 (or Bronco) decides to give me grief…. (as you’ve already helped me in here before…)  :) Brad S

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at.

Absolutely.  I’m still trying to untangle why a 15k mile "tune-up" that consists of an oil change and "inspecting" all the rubber under the hood costs $USD 100.  I frankly think that automakers have done very well at making cars very low maintenance but the service industry is doing as much as possible to make drivers think that cars need constant attention because the cars basically don’t require anything but warranty repair otherwise.  Service techs don’t make shit on warranty service. I know, I know.  It’s easier to get warranty service when you’ve been shelling out the $$$ to the dealer for "tune-ups" on cars that require nothing more than an oil change – according to the warranty schedule. I’m still tickled pink that I bought a brand new car from one of the Ford companies, and no one took the time to run the TSBs as they delivered the car to me and say "there are a few warranty issues we should correct right away".  No, it took a few months for me to notice a problem and find the TSB myself… then I had to take the car to the dealer twice to get it fixed (once to verify the problem they could have verified before delivery, another time to replace the parts after ordering them).  The problem?  Poorly designed fuel-filler results in early shut-off.  It’s not like a minor problem that most people would overlook. Let’s not overlook the Ford Windstar I had that developed a terrible brake shimmy after 12000 miles. I pulled the rotors and replaced them with aftermarket rotors which lasted more than 90k miles with one resurfacing, after the dealer tried to sell me a $300 brake job.  Gosh, when I looked, I found a TSB that explained that Ford had installed *the wrong rotors* at the factory.  You think the dealer volunteered this?  Nope.  They offered a $300 brake job *I didn’t need*.  I spent $100 and an hour of my time to fix it myself.  I know, I know, I could have killed my family saving that $200… err, $300… but I didn’t.  That car stopped well right up until we sold it. The two-week old Geo Prism we had in 1993… a brand new car.  The ECU died and the dealer spent 5 days working on the car and then told me it would take two weeks to fix and cost $500.  So I called the 1-800-ASK-GM-FOR-HELP number, and the customer service rep found an ECU and FedExed it to the dealer. Funny, the car was fixed two days later at $0 cost to me.  Suppose I’d trusted the "experts" at the dealer… Jim, I totally respect the skill and training that automotive service techs have.  But it’s getting harder to defend service techs when they’re making the mortgage on superfluous service.  Cars are more complicated than ever, but they’re also more reliable than ever.  The next time someone tries to sell me a $100 "fuel injector cleaning" on the basis of nothing more than "injectors can get clogged, you don’t want that", I’m likely to say "let’s pull those injectors out and test them, and if even one of them is clogged or sprays funny, I’ll pay you $200 to clean them, otherwise you pay me $100 for trying to sell me a needless service".  Wonder how many takers I’d have (I think the answer is *zero*, which is odd when *they* started out saying I needed the service). Cars break and we need experts to fix them.  But the "experts" have done much to erode trust when ordinary service that consists of nothing more than an oil change and probing/flashlighting all the rubber is over $USD 200 depending on the mile interval. Don’t get me wrong.  I really do appreciate expert debugging and repair.  I just have come to believe that the situation is artificially complicated in ways designed to exploit the consumer and it’s breaking down the cycle of trust.  When a service tech tells me something today, I have a lot of reason to question the validity.  So please don’t blame or get self-righteous with someone that can’t believe a broken switch costs $130.  They’ve got reason to ask and it’s nothing personal. Dana

Response:

You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along.

Whoa.  I’ve seen a lot of accidents in my driving days, and most of them were clearly the result of driver error.  Perhaps things are different in your part of North America, but down here in California, people drive too fast and follow too closely and that’s what causes accidents, as verified by my highway patrol friends I ask. Dana

Response:

 Very interesting thread. Being a dreaded Service Writer, I expected a huge flame war against dealers. I was pleasantly surprised.

Well, I hope I haven’t ruined your day…   And Jim is very, very correct in his statements. A refurbished SBDS diagnostic machine is 15G’s. REFURB. But it’s almost obsolete. Now you gotta have the WDS.. bye bye 10 grand.. someone has to pay for this equipment. Guess who that is? The customer. This is why the labor rate is what it is. And for you folks paying $75/hr for labor, you’re getting a deal. From the latest reports I have heard, the average labor rate in the San Francisco area is $125/hr.

$100 in Napa, California. Cars are unbelievably complex now.

They’re also unbelievable reliable now.  That’s the problem for dealers. Cars just don’t need a lot of fixing.  If it wasn’t for that darn check-engine light, you’d never see a running car The traditional starter? GONE..

In which cars in the 2004 model year? The traditional alternator? GONE. Replaced by electromagnetic coils in the flywheel assy.

In a hybrid car, sure.  Otherwise, which 2004 models lack an alternator? Power steering pump? Electric..

Which models?  Since the only source of power in a car is the mechanical engine, pumps are still best driven by a belt.  Perhaps you’re referring to hybrids again? Water pump? Electric.

In which currently-shipping models? The revolution in automotive technology has just begun. Just wait..

Sure.  Cars that require oil changes every 5k miles or so and new plugs at 60k miles… that’s been pretty revolutionary. Are you saying that the manufacturers have been making cars less reliable?   The dealer has to be able to fix *anything*  If you take your car to 10 different shops and they can’t fix it, where do you end up? The dealer. Sorry, but it costs a lot of money for training, equipment, overhead, etc to be able to repair vehicles at the dealer level. I had a customer spend over $800 dollars at independent shops on O2 sensor, MAF sensor, crank angle sensor, etc, etc, on his 2001 Taurus that he NEVER NEEDED!.

I’m sure this is true, but don’t overlook that your fellow dealer service writers have tried more than once to sell me repairs I didn’t need. [...]   What you really pay for is knowledge. Time is just a convenient way to attach a certain dollar amount to the amount of skill and knowledge it will take to repair something. If you want to pay $25/hour for labor, then you’ll get what you pay for.

I don’t disagree.  I love it when people I know want me to come fix their computers, and then volunteer "I’ll pay you".  Every single time, I tell them, "You can’t afford me".  I fix the computers for the people that I care about and I refer the others to a reputable repair shop. Dana

Response:

  Gosh, when I looked, I found a TSB that explained that Ford had installed *the wrong rotors* at the factory.  You think the dealer volunteered this?  Nope.  They offered a $300 brake job *I didn’t need*.

Let me clarify – I didn’t need a $300 brake job. I needed the rotors replaced under warranty for $0. Dana

Response:

Question:

Thanks.  I think he had a similar relation ship with Ampeg Japan.    Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The whole L6-S story in on BL’s website — BL was the lead designer at Gibson in the early-to-mid ’70s.  As he once told me, "Seth Lover’s boss reported to me — they involved me in everything related to design and manufacturing, but the final form of the L6-S was decided by accountants and marketers, not designers or players!" <http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/L6S.htm Funny I was thinking about just what his "Q-filter" is.  Will likely be ordering 290s soon.  Thanks Chris. BTW I understand he did the neck and such on that axe too.  Check out the Ampeg ”Heavy Stud” if you ever see one. I miss mine too, but fortunately you can recreate the circuit pretty easily.  The L-6S is an old Bill Lawrence design, and BL’s current "Q-Filter" inductor should be a suitable replacement for the Gibson 70-062 inductor. Mine was a one henry choke (coil).  Miss that axe.    Peace Chris I just sent the schematic to your e-mail address.  I pulled this off of a Yahoo Group files section, and the value of the coil on the second tone control is missing. Are you restoring an L6-S, or just looking for something different to try? Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave Disclaimer: I occasionally consult with William Lawrence Designs (Wilde), dba "Bill Lawrence Guitars"

Response:

The whole L6-S story in on BL’s website — BL was the lead designer at Gibson in the early-to-mid ’70s.  As he once told me, "Seth Lover’s boss reported to me — they involved me in everything related to design and manufacturing, but the final form of the L6-S was decided by accountants and marketers, not designers or players!" <http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/L6S.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Funny I was thinking about just what his "Q-filter" is.  Will likely be ordering 290s soon.  Thanks Chris. BTW I understand he did the neck and such on that axe too.  Check out the Ampeg ”Heavy Stud” if you ever see one. I miss mine too, but fortunately you can recreate the circuit pretty easily.  The L-6S is an old Bill Lawrence design, and BL’s current "Q-Filter" inductor should be a suitable replacement for the Gibson 70-062 inductor. Mine was a one henry choke (coil).  Miss that axe.    Peace Chris I just sent the schematic to your e-mail address.  I pulled this off of a Yahoo Group files section, and the value of the coil on the second tone control is missing. Are you restoring an L6-S, or just looking for something different to try? Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave

Disclaimer: I occasionally consult with William Lawrence Designs (Wilde), dba "Bill Lawrence Guitars"

Response:

I miss mine too, but fortunately you can recreate the circuit pretty easily.  The L-6S is an old Bill Lawrence design, and BL’s current "Q-Filter" inductor should be a suitable replacement for the Gibson 70-062 inductor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mine was a one henry choke (coil).  Miss that axe.    Peace Chris I just sent the schematic to your e-mail address.  I pulled this off of a Yahoo Group files section, and the value of the coil on the second tone control is missing. Are you restoring an L6-S, or just looking for something different to try? Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave

Disclaimer: I occasionally consult with William Lawrence Designs (Wilde), dba "Bill Lawrence Guitars"

Response:

Funny I was thinking about just what his "Q-filter" is.  Will likely be ordering 290s soon.  Thanks Chris. BTW I understand he did the neck and such on that axe too.  Check out the Ampeg ”Heavy Stud” if you ever see one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I miss mine too, but fortunately you can recreate the circuit pretty easily.  The L-6S is an old Bill Lawrence design, and BL’s current "Q-Filter" inductor should be a suitable replacement for the Gibson 70-062 inductor. Mine was a one henry choke (coil).  Miss that axe.    Peace Chris I just sent the schematic to your e-mail address.  I pulled this off of a Yahoo Group files section, and the value of the coil on the second tone control is missing. Are you restoring an L6-S, or just looking for something different to try? Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave Disclaimer: I occasionally consult with William Lawrence Designs (Wilde), dba "Bill Lawrence Guitars"

Response:

Mine was a one henry choke (coil).  Miss that axe.    Peace Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just sent the schematic to your e-mail address.  I pulled this off of a Yahoo Group files section, and the value of the coil on the second tone control is missing. Are you restoring an L6-S, or just looking for something different to try? Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave

Response:

Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave

Response:

I just sent the schematic to your e-mail address.  I pulled this off of a Yahoo Group files section, and the value of the coil on the second tone control is missing. Are you restoring an L6-S, or just looking for something different to try? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave

Response:

Your address failed.  Send me an e-mail with PRIVATE in subject line, requesting schematic, and I’ll send it to you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gibson just sent me a schematic and I can’t make any sense out of it. Is there someplace (or does someone have) a diagram showing the switch, pots, and connections for the L6-S? thanks for any help…Dave

Response:

Question:

Deano sez: So who has crossed the line into treason?

John Walker Lindh has for one. Others are skating on thin ice. We are talking about U.S. citizens right? There are some here on green cards that fit the bill. But then they are not citizens. Jan Eric Orme "Work like you don’t need the money, love like you have never been hurt and dance like nobody is watching!"

Response:

It’s time the Jane Fonda’s & Sean Penn’s of this country wise up and support the troops that defend them. We ALL support our troops. One of the best ways of supporting our troops is to stop our so-called leaders from putting them into uncalled for, unnecessary, unwise, and counterproductive wars.

That situation isn’t happening right now, so I will file your comment away for future reference.

Response:

This Airman’s response to the Washington Times should be printed in all newspapers across America. Especially now when the President is calling up more Reserves and National Guardsmen. Get this response out to everyone you know. It’s time the Jane Fonda’s & Sean Penn’s of this country wise up and support the troops that defend them. Military pay article On 12 Nov, Ms Cindy Williams (from Laverne and Shirley TV show) wrote a piece for the Washington Times, denouncing the pay raise(s) coming service members’ way this year — citing that the stated 13% wage was more than they deserve.

Urban legend.  Check snopes before spreading this kind of stuff. — Carl A. http://pages.prodigy.net/chainnj/Journal.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you mean, did I protest in the streets? No I did not. That, to me is a waste of good shoe leather. But I did speak out against the bombing of Serbia. I think that war was wrong. I think this one is right. I also support people’s right to dessent as long as we can also point out where they are wrong AND they don’t go over the line and commit treason by defending the enemy. Jane Fonda should have had the cojones to denounce her US citizenship and stayed in Hanoi. She blatently put our POWs in serious danger. Dessent is fine. But traveling to an enemy shore and speaking against your own nation is something I consider to be treason. Rather Treasonous Dan can have the benifit of doubt because he is the media. Sean Penn is just a wimp ass commoner like the rest of us, giving aid to the enemy. Jan Eric Orme

So who has crossed the line into treason? Deano

Response:

That’s not what she said on her interview on FAUX news. She did protest the NATO bombing of Serbia as did many others including many repubs, did you? Were you a traitor for lending comfort to the enemy? No, of course not. That’s a ruse by the right wing to shut people up. I totally disagree with the current anti war views but completely support their right to dessent. Even if it were you. Deano

If you mean, did I protest in the streets? No I did not. That, to me is a waste of good shoe leather. But I did speak out against the bombing of Serbia. I think that war was wrong. I think this one is right. I also support people’s right to dessent as long as we can also point out where they are wrong AND they don’t go over the line and commit treason by defending the enemy. Jane Fonda should have had the cojones to denounce her US citizenship and stayed in Hanoi. She blatently put our POWs in serious danger. Dessent is fine. But traveling to an enemy shore and speaking against your own nation is something I consider to be treason. Rather Treasonous Dan can have the benifit of doubt because he is the media. Sean Penn is just a wimp ass commoner like the rest of us, giving aid to the enemy. Jan Eric Orme "Work like you don’t need the money, love like you have never been hurt and dance like nobody is watching!"

Response:

This Airman’s response to the Washington Times should be printed in all newspapers across America.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blpayraise.htm Tex Houston

Response:

Jenny said: Trendy Protesting (of Republicans) Explaining why she and other anti-war protesters didn’t organize demonstrations when President Clinton launched attacks on Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan and the Sudan. "It wasn’t very hip" [to protest Clinton's Wars]. Source: http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/2/23/151110

like nobody is watching!" That’s not what she said on her interview on FAUX news. She did protest the NATO bombing of Serbia as did many others including many repubs, did you? Were you a traitor for lending comfort to the enemy? No, of course not. That’s a ruse by the right wing to shut people up. I totally disagree with the current anti war views but completely support their right to dessent. Even if it were you. Deano

Response:

Jenny said: It’s time the Jane Fonda’s & Sean Penn’s of this country wise up and support the troops that defend them. We ALL support our troops. One of the best ways of supporting our troops is to stop our so-called leaders from putting them into uncalled for, unnecessary, unwise, and counterproductive wars.

Just wondering Jenny. Does this mean you feel that way all the time or do you agree with Janeane Garofalo and her comments about? Trendy Protesting (of Republicans) Explaining why she and other anti-war protesters didn’t organize demonstrations when President Clinton launched attacks on Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan and the Sudan. "It wasn’t very hip" [to protest Clinton's Wars]. Source: http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/2/23/151110 I’m not trying to set you up here Jenny, because I assume you did not support Clinton on his wars either. Clinton, BTW, holds the bloody record for wars. The point is, that these "Actors" are hypocrits in most cases. When it comes to this subject it’s all politics and what a Democtate Administration does is somehow OK. And Jenny, you are into nakedness, do you agree with Janeans on this silly nakedness? Naked Gay Burning the Flag Choke Her up With Pride From a 1998 interview in the now-folded Buzz magazine: "Our country is founded on a sham: our forefathers were slave-owning rich white guys who wanted it their way. So when I see the American flag, I go, ‘Oh my God, you’re insulting me.’ That you can have a gay parade on Christopher Street in New York, with naked men and women on a float cheering, ‘We’re here, we’re queer!’ — that’s what makes my heart swell. Not the flag, but a gay naked man or woman burning the flag. I get choked up with pride." Source: http://www.hollywoodinvestigator.com/2002/garofalo.htm For more Hollywood Nitwit Garofaloisms you can read this: http://www.hollywoodhalfwits.com/janeanegarofalo/index.htm And for Leftist Hollywood Nitwits in general, you can go to: http://www.hollywoodhalfwits.com/ Jan Eric Orme "Work like you don’t need the money, love like you have never been hurt and dance like nobody is watching!"

Response:

It’s time the Jane Fonda’s & Sean Penn’s of this country wise up and support the troops that defend them.

We ALL support our troops. One of the best ways of supporting our troops is to stop our so-called leaders from putting them into uncalled for, unnecessary, unwise, and counterproductive wars. Jenny Before emailing, remove Clothes

Response:

This Airman’s response to the Washington Times should be printed in all newspapers across America. Especially now when the President is calling up more Reserves and National Guardsmen. Get this response out to everyone you know. It’s time the Jane Fonda’s & Sean Penn’s of this country wise up and support the troops that defend them. Military pay article On 12 Nov, Ms Cindy Williams (from Laverne and Shirley TV show) wrote a piece for the Washington Times, denouncing the pay raise(s) coming service members’ way this year — citing that the stated 13% wage was more than they deserve. A young airman from Hill AFB responds to her article below.  He ought to get a bonus for this! "Ms Williams: I just had the pleasure of reading your column, "Our GIs earn enough" and I am a bit confused.  Frankly, I’m wondering where this vaunted overpayment is going, because as far as I can tell, it disappears every month between DFAS (The Defense Finance and Accounting Service) and my bank account.  Checking my latest earnings statement  I see that I make $1,117.80 before taxes. After taxes, I take home $874.20.  When I run that through the calculator, I come up with an annual salary of $13,413.60 before taxes, and $10,490.40 after. I work in the Air Force Network Control Center where I am part of the team responsible for a 5,000-host computer network.  I am involved with infrastructure segments, specifically with Cisco Systems equipment.  A quick check under jobs for Network Technicians in the Washington, D.C. area reveals a position in my career field, requiring three years experience with my job.  Amazingly, this job does NOT pay $13,413.60 a year.  No, this job is being offered at $70,000 to $80,000 per annum.  I’m sure you can draw the obvious conclusions. Given the tenor of your column, I would assume that you have NEVER had the pleasure of serving your country in her armed forces.  Before you take it upon yourself to once more castigate congressional and DOD leadership for attempting to get the families in the military’s lowest pay brackets off of WIC, and food stamps, I suggest that you join a group of deploying soldiers headed for AFGHANISTAN, I leave the choice of service branch up to you. Whatever choice you make, though, opt for the SIX month rotation: it will guarantee you the longest possible time away from your family and friends, thus giving you full "deployment experience."  As your group prepares to board the plane, make sure to note the spouses and children who are saying good-bye to their loved ones.  Also take care to note that several families are still unsure of how they’ll be able to make ends meet while the primary breadwinner is gone — obviously they’ve been squandering the "vast" piles of cash the government has been giving them.  Try to deploy over a major holiday; Christmas and Thanksgiving are perennial favorites. And when you’re actually over there, sitting in a foxhole, shivering against the cold desert night; and the flight sergeant tells you that there aren’t enough people on shift to relieve you for chow, remember this: trade whatever MRE (meal-ready-to-eat) you manage to get for the tuna noodle casserole or cheese tortellini, and add Tabasco to everything.  This gives some flavor.  Talk to your loved ones as often as you are permitted; it won’t nearly be long enough or often enough, but take what you can get and be thankful for  it.  You may have picked up on the fact that I disagree with most of the points you present in your op-ed piece.  But, tomorrow from KABUL, I will defend to the death your right to say it. You see, I am an American fighting man, a guarantor of your First Amendment rights and every other right you cherish.  On a daily basis, my brother and sister soldiers worldwide ensure that you and people like you can thumb your collective nose at us, all on a salary that is nothing short of pitiful and under conditions that would make most people cringe. We hemorrhage our best and brightest into the private sector because we can’t offer the stability and pay of civilian companies.  And you, Ms Williams, have the gall to say that we make more than we deserve? Rubbish! A1C Michael Bragg, Hill AFB AFNCC IF YOU AGREE, PLEASE PASS THIS ALONG TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE AND SHOW OUR SUPPORT OF THE AMERICAN FIGHTING  MEN AND WOMEN. THANK YOU. THIS LETTER SHOULD BE APPLAUDED BY ANYONE WHO’S EVER  SERVED OR HAD  A FAMILY MEMBER SERVE IN THE ARMED FORCES!  THIS YOUNG MAN DESERVES A MEDAL!

Response:

Question:

  Does anyone know what the first and second pass rate is when taking the CPA test? I’ve just started college (again) and I’m going for my BAS in Accounting and want become a CPA soon after graduation.   Also, what does the test involve and what can I start working on now to help me pass it in 3 years or so.   THREE years?  C’mon!  Worry about your college education, study hard, learn a lot, that’s all you need to worry about for now.  Worry about the CPA exam in 2 1/2 years.   —   Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC   Athens, Georgia

Response:

Does anyone know what the first and second pass rate is when taking the CPA test? I’ve just started college (again) and I’m going for my BAS in Accounting and want become a CPA soon after graduation. Also, what does the test involve and what can I start working on now to help me pass it in 3 years or so.

I believe CA is among the vast majority of states that require 150 hours to sit for the CPA.  You’ll need more than your bachelor’s degree. — Todd Stephens

Response:

Does anyone know what the first and second pass rate is when taking the CPA test? I’ve just started college (again) and I’m going for my BAS in Accounting and want become a CPA soon after graduation. Also, what does the test involve and what can I start working on now to help me pass it in 3 years or so. Thanks, Matt Bock

Response:

Question:

Did anyone test what shutter speed is needed to get the same picture sharpness when handholding you camera with, say, a 50mm lens, compared to the sharpness you get by using a tripod? I would guess you need at least 1/250. Vagabond

Response:

I’ve heard a ‘rule of thumb’ that you shouldn’t try to handhold at a longer shutter speed than the focal length. eg. should be alright with a 50mm at 1/60th but not 1/30th or with a focal length of 200mm you shouldn’t try to handhold with anything less than 1/200th.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anyone test what shutter speed is needed to get the same picture sharpness when handholding you camera with, say, a 50mm lens, compared to the sharpness you get by using a tripod? I would guess you need at least 1/250. Vagabond

Response:

Did anyone test what shutter speed is needed to get the same picture sharpness when handholding you camera with, say, a 50mm lens, compared to the sharpness you get by using a tripod? I would guess you need at least 1/250.

You’ll always get greater sharpness by using a good, sturdy tripod. That’s the short answer. More in depth the question becomes, "How sharp is sharp enough?" The answer varies from person to person. Most of the time I prefer to trade off ultimate sharpness for the ability to react quickly. So I rarely use tripods but often handhold 50mm lenses at 1/30th second or less. With a rangefinder camera I can do this and get acceptably sharp photos. For my SLR I have a 400mm lens with a shoulder stock, gun grip and remote cable release. I can easily handhold this lens at 1/60th second and get very good sharpness. -Dave-

Response:

Did anyone test what shutter speed is needed to get the same picture sharpness when handholding you camera with, say, a 50mm lens, compared to the sharpness you get by using a tripod? I would guess you need at least 1/250.

Depends.   Depends on whether there is anyway I can bolster my stance:  Leaning on something, sitting, proping my elbows on something. Depends on circumstances.  I used to do a lot of target shooting, and if I have the time, I can get pretty steady, breathe right, squeeze the shot.  If I don’t, then I don’t. Depends on the subject.  Viewers will stand for less sharpness in some subjects than in others. — Kirk Experience is the best teacher…      But her pop quizzes can be mighty tough.

Response:

Depends on the subject.  Viewers will stand for less sharpness in some subjects than in others.

Good point. I feel my landscapes need to be very sharp or else it is annoying. But people pictures and candids are more forgiving. In street pictures a bit of blur kind of add to the authentic feeling. Vagabond

Response:

Did anyone test what shutter speed is needed to get the same picture sharpness when handholding you camera with, say, a 50mm lens, compared to the sharpness you get by using a tripod? I would guess you need at least 1/250.

As has already been said, it depends on a lot of things.  There’s the oft-repeated rule of thumb that says 1/f, or 1/60 second for a 50mm lens.  But while 1/60 may be adequate for some purposes, with a well-focused 50mm lens, used with fine grained film, if you enlarge the photo, a tripod will nearly always give noticably better sharpness.  And if you’re cold and shivering, and if wind is blowing you around and you have nothing to lean up against, 1/60 won’t be good enough even for a snapshot.  But I’ve handheld a 50mm at 1/4 second with good results when I was able to brace my camera well. Don’t forget that a tripod also helps by letting you choose your aperture.  Instead of being forced to shoot at f1.4, you can stop down to f8 or so where your depth of field is better and your lens is sharper.  It will also let you work with slower film.  I’ve taken cityscape shots just after sunset using exposures of around 30 seconds at f16 on ISO 100 film.  After accounting for reciprocity, that’s roughly equivalent to a handholdable 1/30 or 1/60 at f2 using ISO 800 film.  But stopping down and using slow film made a MUCH better picture. –Rich

Response:

Did anyone test what shutter speed is needed to get the same picture sharpness when handholding you camera with, say, a 50mm lens, compared to the sharpness you get by using a tripod? I would guess you need at least 1/250. Vagabond

It’s not possible to get a picture as sharp handheld as on a tripod. Shutter speed won’t matter, it still won’t be as sharp. webpage: http://www.kjsl.com/~jbdavis/

Response:

      I’ve tried every thing; fast, slow, long, short, nothing works but a support or flash, both at the same time works best. I"ll never understand people who stand there swaying in the crowd and then coming to the conclusion that the camera’s no good.               Bob Hickey

Response:

I"ll never understand people who stand there swaying in the crowd and then coming to the conclusion that the camera’s no good.  

No matter what the marketeers tell you, cameras do not take good pictures. Photographers take good pictures. Dave

Response:

If you’re trying to get a really sharp image without the aid of any support other than yourself, I’d start with 2 or 3 shutter speeds faster than 1/focal length.  So 1/250 or 1/500 for a 50mm lens.  

*snap* Thanks for the reply. The reason I started to wonder about this is that I noticed that pictures taken in good with my 20-35 zoom handheld were very sharp. Even with Velvia (50 iso) a daylight scene may give f8 @ 1/125 second or so exposure. At  20mm 1/125 second is more than six times the "minimum" shutter speed if using the old rule of thumb. I am trying to disipline myself to using a tripod more. The real issue isn’t what the "minimum" handheld shutter speed is for any given lenght, but what handheld shutter speed I can use without a quality loss compared to tripod use. Untill I can do more tests, I will stick to the 5 x focal lenght rule: At 50mm a sharp picture will be had at 50mm X 5 = 1/250 seconds and up. Vagabond PS. When I hear people praise their wide angles for sharp pictures, I wonder if they are regular tripod users or not. If they are not, they might confuse optical lens sharpness with the lack of motion blur "sharpness" which is much easier to achieve with a wide lens than with normal or tele lenses.

Response:

Question:

BlankCan anybody tell me as to whether or not Business Works is a good accounting software package? — Thank you and have a nice day! Harvey S Linda  CPA begin 666 Harvey S Linda  CPA.vcf M0D5′24XZ5D-!4D0-"E9%4E-)3TXZ,BXQ#0I..DQI;F1A("!#4$$[2&%R=F5Y M.U,-"D9..DAA<G9E2!3($QI;F1A("!#4$$-"DY)0TM.04U%.D%D86UO<PT* M3U)'.DA33%1!6 T*5$5,.U=/4DL[5D])0T4Z-C$W(#<X,RTT,#(V#0I414P[ M03LP,C$S-2TS-#$U.U5300T*3$%"14P[5T]22SM%3D-/1$E.1SU154]4140M M4%))3E1!0DQ%.D)R:6=H=&]N+"!-02 P,C$S-2TS-#$U/3!$/3!!55-!#0I8 M;&1N970N871T+FYE= T*4D56.C(P,# P,3$R5#(S,#$R-%H-"D5.1#I60T%2 #1 T* ` end

Response:

All of the popular Acctg. Software packages including BusinessWorks are good accounting packages.  However, some of them are better at some things than others.  The answer as to whether BusinessWorks is good for a particular company depends on what type of business they are in, what their information needs are and whether BusinessWorks has the features they require. I think BusinessWorks is a fine product, but whether it is for you can only be answered by you after you spend the time to determine if it has the features and capabilities that you require. Peter McGowan

Response:

This sounds like a Bill Clinton press release. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of the popular Acctg. Software packages including BusinessWorks are good accounting packages.  However, some of them are better at some things than others.  The answer as to whether BusinessWorks is good for a particular company depends on what type of business they are in, what their information needs are and whether BusinessWorks has the features they require. I think BusinessWorks is a fine product, but whether it is for you can only be answered by you after you spend the time to determine if it has the features and capabilities that you require. Peter McGowan

Response:

    It may be but different packages are still better than others in particular companies. BW is a fine package and just doesn’t fit some companies as is true for any package in that area, like Red Wing (which I resell). Testing in your particular circumstances is the only way to find out. Luck,  Dana To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the address Visit our web site at http://www.tailored-computing.com

Response:

Perhaps some of the posters who are familiar with BW could tout some of its strengths?  The original post was looking for information and several posts later, I suspect they are STILL looking for some information form individuals who have some experience with this package. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    It may be but different packages are still better than others in particular companies. BW is a fine package and just doesn’t fit some companies as is true for any package in that area, like Red Wing (which I resell). Testing in your particular circumstances is the only way to find out. Luck, Dana To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the address Visit our web site at http://www.tailored-computing.com

Response:

Try downloading the demo at www.sota.com.  At best you will learn about the features of BW.  As a reseller of this software I have sold to non profits, service oriented for profit business, retail and manufacturing.  If you need further information, after downloading the demo I would be glad to respond. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BlankCan anybody tell me as to whether or not Business Works is a good accounting software package? — Thank you and have a nice day! Harvey S Linda  CPA

Response:

We are a BusinessWorks consultant.  As commented earlier there are many packages out there.  Some stronger in certain industries than in others. Let’s face it AP,AR are basically the same from one package to another.  It just depends on features and needs of the company.  Sometimes there are features that one package has and the other doesn’t or there are add-on modules that one package has that the other doesn’t. BusinessWorks offers a 30 day trial of the system.  You should look for a free trial of any program you are interested in and kick the tires a little. However, I must warn you a do it yourself trial generally doesn’t always show off the capabilities of a product. It is a good idea to sit down with a consultant for the accounting products your interested.  A good consultant will honestly tell you whether their package will fit your needs.  The consultant can also demonstrate the features of the program showing you things you didn’t see in it.  He can go over any other add-on packages available that would help fit the needs of the company.  Finally a good consultant usually has a CPA on board to work with you and your accountant to help you set it up and train your staff. I know there are happy and disatisfied customers of any accounting package. Just because there are unsatisfied customers doesn’t mean the product is no good.  Maybe the customer did their own leg work and avoided a consultant and is unhappy.  Maybe they bought it from a consultant who really doesn’t understand accounting and company needs.  Remember there are box sellers and there are consultants.  The box sellers are good at selling you on the product but can’t help you make it work for you. Joe Norcott Business Technologies Of New England, Inc. www.btne.com

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Adamos – I am currently a reseller for Business Works and I think that it is a full feature product in its price range.  Of course, you can spend more, but your company needs should determine if you actually need to do that.  There are few products in this price range, and the others do not offer many of the features included in BW.  If you are looking you might also look at Great Plains (their price doubles when you go multi-user) or Champion (still a DOS based product) or Cougar Mountain (a mail order software with "0" support).  SAGE, which owns BW is the largest Accounting Software Developer in the European market and has recently acquired Peachtree, Acuity, BW, MAS90, DacEasy, Timeslips, and most recently BEST Software (producers of Best Fixed Assets, etc.)  As you can see they are determined to be the largest Accounting Software company in the USA as well. DeeDee Heyne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BlankCan anybody tell me as to whether or not Business Works is a good accounting software package? — Thank you and have a nice day! Harvey S Linda  CPA

  dbhent.vcf

1K Download

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It’s a highly competitive market sector.  For comparison, UA Corporate Accounting offers their Small Business Edition for $3,995. It’s the same 10 well-integrated modules which they sell on other platforms, including MS SQL 7.0. Respectfully,  - Carl  Dick www.cpaccess.com 800-997-7944 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BlankCan anybody tell me as to whether or not Business Works is a good accounting software package? — Thank you and have a nice day! Harvey S Linda  CPA begin 666 Harvey S Linda  CPA.vcf M0D5′24XZ5D-!4D0-"E9%4E-)3TXZ,BXQ#0I..DQI;F1A("!#4$$[2&%R=F5Y M.U,-"D9..DAA<G9E2!3($QI;F1A("!#4$$-"DY)0TM.04U%.D%D86UO<PT* M3U)'.DA33%1!6 T*5$5,.U=/4DL[5D])0T4Z-C$W(#<X,RTT,#(V#0I414P[ M03LP,C$S-2TS-#$U.U5300T*3$%"14P[5T]22SM%3D-/1$E.1SU154]4140M M4%))3E1!0DQ%.D)R:6=H=&]N+"!-02 P,C$S-2TS-#$U/3!$/3!!55-!#0I8 M;&1N970N871T+FYE= T*4D56.C(P,# P,3$R5#(S,#$R-%H-"D5.1#I60T%2 #1 T* ` end

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Question:

Got some bad news from Peachtree on the future of Peachtree Office Accounting. Here’s a few snippets from what I was sent: "Peachtree Software was acquired by the Sage Group plc in February of this year." "In reviewing the product lines offered by both Peachtree and Sage, it became readily apparent that Peachtree’s Eagle product (Peachtree Office Accounting v2.0 on SQL Server 7.0) and Sage’s MAS 90 for SQL Server were very similar." "Peachtree has decided to discontinue development of the product code-named Eagle thus allowing Peachtree Software to continue its strong focus in the 1-25 employee small business market. This change in direction impacts the delivery date of the multi-user Version 2.0 of Peachtree Office Accounting. At present we do not know the magnitude of this delay; however, we are confident that Version 2.0 of Peachtree Office Accounting will not be available during the 1999 calendar year." This appears to be bad news for those of us who invested money and time into Peachtree Office 1.0/1.1. The good news is that I’ve been told that Peachtree Office 1.1 is compatible with Microsoft Office 2000. We shall see. There is also the chance that the product my continue to be developed down the road. But the future looks bleak. I, for one, am probably going to give up on Peachtree due to this very, very disappointing product development shift. As for other Peachtree products, I have no information on how they might be affected. Peachtree’s sales number is 800-247-3224 or you can write Brian

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"Peachtree Software was acquired by the Sage Group plc in February of this year." "In reviewing the product lines offered by both Peachtree and Sage, it became readily apparent that Peachtree’s Eagle product (Peachtree Office Accounting v2.0 on SQL Server 7.0) and Sage’s MAS 90 for SQL Server were very similar." "Peachtree has decided to discontinue development of the product code-named Eagle

Its quite a shock isn’t it? Peachtree’s sales number is 800-247-3224 or you can write

Can’t blame Peachtree Inc. –they were sold by ADP and then Sage Software tore their little wings off. Sage is the force to be reckoned with.  Show me a Sage product that is worth the money.  Show me one that is current technology, that doesn’t cost 5 figures.   Hummph.   They discontinued the wrong product if you’re going on merit. Sage is like an oil company; they search and find mineral deposits (groups and herds of users, who have a demonstrated propensity to pay more than the software is worth and more than it costs to sell)  then they mine it and tap it.  POA users were too smart for that, no, not a good bet… Todd

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Peachtree Software was acquired by the Sage Group plc in February of this year." "In reviewing the product lines offered by both Peachtree and Sage, it became readily apparent that Peachtree’s Eagle product (Peachtree Office Accounting v2.0 on SQL Server 7.0) and Sage’s MAS 90 for SQL Server were very similar." "Peachtree has decided to discontinue development of the product code-named Eagle Its quite a shock isn’t it? Peachtree’s sales number is 800-247-3224 or you can write Can’t blame Peachtree Inc. –they were sold by ADP and then Sage Software tore their little wings off. Sage is the force to be reckoned with.  Show me a Sage product that is worth the money.  Show me one that is current technology, that doesn’t cost 5 figures.   Hummph. They discontinued the wrong product if you’re going on merit. Sage is like an oil company; they search and find mineral deposits (groups and herds of users, who have a demonstrated propensity to pay more than the software is worth and more than it costs to sell)  then they mine it and tap it.  POA users were too smart for that, no, not a good bet… Todd

I’m sorry to hear this, but I sort of felt it was coming.  Peachtree Office Accounting could have given QuickBooks some real competition in the small business market (looks like it could have given MAS 90 competition too!).  There is definitely a need for an accounting program for small businesses that are "growing up" but that do not want one of the "high end," high cost, high customer service, modular accounting programs.  Now it looks like small businesses will have to take what Intuit wants to give them. Regards, — Robert W. Scroggins, CPA A Texas CPA http://members.aol.com/rscrogg562/ —Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

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Sage is like an oil company; they search and find mineral deposits (groups and herds of users, who have a demonstrated propensity to pay more than the software is worth and more than it costs to sell)  then they mine it and tap it.  POA users were too smart for that, no, not a good bet…

In the late 60s, corporate raiders and conglomerates existed due to the difference in PE ratios between the traditional companies, such as a steel mill, and the glamorous conglomerate.  Steel mill – PE 10 to 15.  Conglomerate – PE 20 to 50. After Asher Adelman, junk bonds, …, the process stumbled.   Sage may be the harbinger of a new wave.  Somehow they have pyramided small acquisitions such as DAC Easy and Timeslips into a cash buyout of State of the Art.   How long can they offer stale technology at inflated prices?  Not long.  Maybe 3 years, but it could all change in less than a year. Software oligopolies have 2 choices; 1) develop software which takes advantage of faster and cheaper computers, or 2) let the market roll over them. And what happens to the programmers who would have created the next Peachtree?  An analogous situation from recent history: Platinum had financial problems, causing them to lose their best talent.  Their top developers went on to develop UA Corporate Accounting software by ASD.  - Carl

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Question:

If the Purchases invoiced are within the Trading and Profit and Loss period then you should enter

Question:

The Practicism of the Accounting Profession One of the things we can do in resolving the synthesis is deciding what we want the answer to be, and then using the arrow that best gets us there. Such was the cornerstone of the neo – Hegelian Korsch and Freyer’s practiscism theory of categorical logic. You decide what you want the future to be, and then immerse yourself in the theoretical and practical constellation of ideas and processes that best get you there. Accountants know what they want society to be like. They require the stability of certainty. The arrow that best gets them there is the arrow of "probable"; a thing being more likely than not. Such a very dualistic world-view has the advantage of requiring no value judgments and is easy to understand. As a logical positivist, I would claim that such an approach leads to dysfunctional consequences. One day you’re solvent; the next day you’re at the receivers. One day you’re financially sound; the next day you’re an undischarged bankrupt. I sneer at this. As one might say in terms of the recent Goldman Sachs LBO Maine Investments : what is this probable thing ?                                         Paul Taylor Famo Triangle Enterprises On "Neo Marxism" With respect to Adorno and Horkheimer, I feel that the psychological resiting of the labor versus capital conflict in terms of a psychological view of economics; the notion of "fetishism", that the capitalist pig must have his profits and these are what make the whole exercise enjoyable, as being dangerous, misguided and deceitful if this is to be considered Marxist. I know that no-one talks about surplus value any more, except snidely in terms of midly paid computer programmers who add so much value to an organization but who capture so little of it for themselves because of the nature of the power structures guided by the authority of those who make capital decisions. But to turn everybody, even those and especially those who are not "critically aware", who has had a bone to pick with music over the large amount of trash, who stays away from McDonalds because the food, though marketed excellently, is poor in quality and uninteresting in flavor, or who disdains the large amounts of packaging surrounding consumer non-durables somehow into a Marxist, even of a "nice flavor that everyone could enjoy", is a nonsense. Most lack the critical apparatus to suggest radical solutions to society; Marxism to me has always been about the gun toting Che Guevara, not someone who chooses to go to an unfranchised burger bar. It’s not clear that just because you are annoyed (and isn’t everybody) about the lack of quality or larger goals inherent in some of the excesses of capitalism, that you are a Marxist. And it’s not clear that these things bring forward a socialist society; just because people are annoyed with something doesn’t mean they’ll go all out to subvert it; they’ll just continue to ask the little questions of it. Do we want to debase Marxism like this for a start ? To attack capitalism on quality grounds is not "Marxist". Its just sheer common sense. Don’t you want to be a craftsman ? Even if it doesn’t pay very well ? And don’t you want to o shame people who are into excess ? Some sort of stigma ?                                         Paul Taylor                                                 Famo Triangle Enterprises

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Practicism of the Accounting Profession One of the things we can do in resolving the synthesis is deciding what we want the answer to be, and then using the arrow that best gets us there. Such was the cornerstone of the neo – Hegelian Korsch and Freyer’s practiscism theory of categorical logic. You decide what you want the future to be, and then immerse yourself in the theoretical and practical constellation of ideas and processes that best get you there. Accountants know what they want society to be like. They require the stability of certainty. The arrow that best gets them there is the arrow of "probable"; a thing being more likely than not. Such a very dualistic world-view has the advantage of requiring no value judgments and is easy to understand. As a logical positivist, I would claim that such an approach leads to dysfunctional consequences. One day you’re solvent; the next day you’re at the receivers. One day you’re financially sound; the next day you’re an undischarged bankrupt. I sneer at this. As one might say in terms of the recent Goldman Sachs LBO Maine Investments : what is this probable thing ?                                         Paul Taylor Famo Triangle Enterprises On "Neo Marxism" With respect to Adorno and Horkheimer, I feel that the psychological resiting of the labor versus capital conflict in terms of a psychological view of economics; the notion of "fetishism", that the capitalist pig must have his profits and these are what make the whole exercise enjoyable, as being dangerous, misguided and deceitful if this is to be considered Marxist. I know that no-one talks about surplus value any more, except snidely in terms of midly paid computer programmers who add so much value to an organization but who capture so little of it for themselves because of the nature of the power structures guided by the authority of those who make capital decisions. But to turn everybody, even those and especially those who are not "critically aware", who has had a bone to pick with music over the large amount of trash, who stays away from McDonalds because the food, though marketed excellently, is poor in quality and uninteresting in flavor, or who disdains the large amounts of packaging surrounding consumer non-durables somehow into a Marxist, even of a "nice flavor that everyone could enjoy", is a nonsense. Most lack the critical apparatus to suggest radical solutions to society; Marxism to me has always been about the gun toting Che Guevara, not someone who chooses to go to an unfranchised burger bar. It’s not clear that just because you are annoyed (and isn’t everybody) about the lack of quality or larger goals inherent in some of the excesses of capitalism, that you are a Marxist. And it’s not clear that these things bring forward a socialist society; just because people are annoyed with something doesn’t mean they’ll go all out to subvert it; they’ll just continue to ask the little questions of it. Do we want to debase Marxism like this for a start ? To attack capitalism on quality grounds is not "Marxist". Its just sheer common sense. Don’t you want to be a craftsman ? Even if it doesn’t pay very well ? And don’t you want to o shame people who are into excess ? Some sort of stigma ?                                         Paul Taylor                                                 Famo Triangle Enterprises

Paul It sure seems strange to me that after shooting all those arrows you still don’t have a good picture of the target. GARY

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry

Truly amazing and more than meets the eye. Pepperdine is littlem more than a diploma mill. He didn’t leave to go to Harvard or even Georgetown?  Wow.  Didn’t leave to be a bigshot corporate board member?  Wow. If he truly is leaving to go to Pepperdine, it’s worse than you might think. He has no credibility even among his GOP friends. Guess the evidence just wasn’t there to get him a job at a REAL university. Gail

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry Truly amazing and more than meets the eye. Pepperdine is littlem more than a diploma mill. He didn’t leave to go to Harvard or even Georgetown?  Wow.  Didn’t leave to be a bigshot corporate board member?  Wow. If he truly is leaving to go to Pepperdine, it’s worse than you might think. He has no credibility even among his GOP friends. Guess the evidence just wasn’t there to get him a job at a REAL university. Gail

Gail and Harry, hope while you can.  I think this will come to court soon and ole Ken is just securing future employment.  Ole Jim McD has led him to much more credible evidence than either his or (in love with Slick) Susan’s testimony could possibly be. You’re welcome, jwt/ke5p

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From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe

  I demand an investigation of why Starr is quiting. And a   thorough accounting of all funds. Yes, yes, yes, I LOVE IT! — rha

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From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe [...] Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you.

It’s a career move. He wants to get out of a waste of time and money while the getting’s good. After all, how do you think that looks on a resume? RT

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Good riddance. There is nothing there. — Ben Larson The Last Liberal in the Texas Panhandle http://www.wtrt.net/~blarson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Harry From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry If Starr is ready to idict….his investigation will be over.  Looks like the cat will be let out of the bag by summer.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                         By PETE YOST                         Associated Press Writer                         Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry

Yup, it doesn’t look good for any criminal charges against the President based on Whitewater.  Then again, it never did.  The intent of the special prosecutor law is to allow for a fair investigation when some of the parties involved fall into a narrowly defined band of public officials whose position might allow them to influence any investigations by the Justice Department.  That means a special prosecutor is appointed not to nail the President (necessarily) but rather because the President might influence any investigation to protect friends and associates.  And Starr did a pretty good job of rounding up a good number of friends and associates. The curious thing is that Starr was also investigating Filegate and the Travel Office scandel.  Billy Dale just got compensated by the government for his legal fees, so that might have shut the door on that.  But I’m mildly surprised that Craig Livingstone wasn’t charged with anything. So it seems unlikely that Starr will be pressing anything on the federal level if he’s going to step down, which would basically torpedo any of the cases mentioned above.  Of course, Clinton’s not out of the woods yet.  Now we’ve got the Lippo Group, Buddhist nuns, and the Chinese government to keep us entertained for the next two years. Actually, I should add one caveat to what I said above.  It’s probably best to wait and see if Starr gets a successor, and to see what he says.

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<SNIP Yup, it doesn’t look good for any criminal charges against the President based on Whitewater.  Then again, it never did.  The intent of the special prosecutor law is to allow for a fair investigation when some of the parties involved fall into a narrowly defined band of public officials whose position might allow them to influence any investigations by the Justice Department.  That means a special prosecutor is appointed not to nail the President (necessarily) but rather because the President might influence any investigation to protect friends and associates.  And Starr did a pretty good job of rounding up a good number of friends and associates. The curious thing is that Starr was also investigating Filegate and the Travel Office scandel.  Billy Dale just got compensated by the government for his legal fees, so that might have shut the door on that.  But I’m mildly surprised that Craig Livingstone wasn’t charged with anything.

HUH?  The investigation hasn’t stopped.  Do you even know what your talking about?  "Craig LIvingstone wasn’t charged with anything"?  Since when was Livingtone cleared of any wrongdoing? So it seems unlikely that Starr will be pressing anything on the federal level if he’s going to step down, which would basically torpedo any of the cases mentioned above.  Of course, Clinton’s not out of the woods

Why would it be "torpedoed"?  Did Starr lead the prosection of the McDougals, Tucker, Hale, or Webb Hubble?  Or did he simply indict them and have over the info he had to prosectutors?  I’m not saying that he will definitely be indicting anyone, but it seems people are counting their chickens before they hatch. yet.  Now we’ve got the Lippo Group, Buddhist nuns, and the Chinese government to keep us entertained for the next two years. Actually, I should add one caveat to what I said above.  It’s probably best to wait and see if Starr gets a successor, and to see what he says.

Ahhh….

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                         By PETE YOST                         Associated Press Writer                         Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry Yup, it doesn’t look good for any criminal charges against the President based on Whitewater.  Then again, it never did.  The intent of the special prosecutor law is to allow for a fair investigation when some of the parties involved fall into a narrowly defined band of public officials whose position might allow them to influence any investigations by the Justice Department.  That means a special prosecutor is appointed not to nail the President (necessarily) but rather because the President might influence any investigation to protect friends and associates. And Starr did a pretty good job of rounding up a good number of friends and associates. The curious thing is that Starr was also investigating Filegate and the Travel Office scandel.  Billy Dale just got compensated by the government for his legal fees, so that might have shut the door on that.  But I’m mildly surprised that Craig Livingstone wasn’t charged with anything. So it seems unlikely that Starr will be pressing anything on the federal level if he’s going to step down, which would basically torpedo any of the cases mentioned above.  Of course, Clinton’s not out of the woods yet.  Now we’ve got the Lippo Group, Buddhist nuns, and the Chinese government to keep us entertained for the next two years. Actually, I should add one caveat to what I said above.  It’s probably best to wait and see if Starr gets a successor, and to see what he

says. They need a "snitch" like John Dean to overcome the stonewalling the Clinton WH has been pulling. Also I believe alot of the documents have been shredded by Her Royal Highness (that is Hillary Rodham.  They have had so many years to do I’m not sure any documents or materials are available.     yasmin2

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP Yup, it doesn’t look good for any criminal charges against the President based on Whitewater.  Then again, it never did.  The intent of the special prosecutor law is to allow for a fair investigation when some of the parties involved fall into a narrowly defined band of public officials whose position might allow them to influence any investigations by the Justice Department.  That means a special prosecutor is appointed not to nail the President (necessarily) but rather because the President might influence any investigation to protect friends and associates.  And Starr did a pretty good job of rounding up a good number of friends and associates. The curious thing is that Starr was also investigating Filegate and the Travel Office scandel.  Billy Dale just got compensated by the government for his legal fees, so that might have shut the door on that.  But I’m mildly surprised that Craig Livingstone wasn’t charged with anything. HUH?  The investigation hasn’t stopped.  Do you even know what your talking about?  "Craig LIvingstone wasn’t charged with anything"?  Since when was Livingtone cleared of any wrongdoing?

 Gem of logic, here. "…wasn’t charged…" is invalidated by "[wasn't]  cleared". Soooo…the fact you’ve never been charged with incest  is irrelevant because *you’ve* never been cleared of them. I *like* it. — rha

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry Truly amazing and more than meets the eye. Pepperdine is littlem more than a diploma mill. He didn’t leave to go to Harvard or even Georgetown?  Wow.  Didn’t leave to be a bigshot corporate board member?  Wow. If he truly is leaving to go to Pepperdine, it’s worse than you might think. He has no credibility even among his GOP friends. Guess the evidence just wasn’t there to get him a job at a REAL university. Gail Gail and Harry, hope while you can.  I think this will come to court soon and ole Ken is just securing future employment.  Ole Jim McD has led him to much more credible evidence than either his or (in love with Slick) Susan’s testimony could possibly be. You’re welcome, jwt/ke5p

Heh. I guess you know exactly what Jim told ole Ken. By any chance was Jim talking to Ken over a cellular phone…and your scanner just happened to be on? Or is this just you blowing neo-con smoke? Errrr, never mind. (Waving hand in front of face.) — rha

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- – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: – - Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe – - [...] – - Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, – - Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. – – -It’s a career move. He wants to get out of a waste of time – -and money while the getting’s good. After all, how do you – -think that looks on a resume? – – Little late for that, don’t you think?  But it does look like he’s – given up hope for an impeachment. –  Let me dust off Leon Jaworski’s resume and see how it reads…..I’d -say, not too bad! – – My guess is that he hoped he could spread enough mud to sink Clinton’s – reelection and build up points for that Supreme Court seat, but now – that game is lost.  He’s well aware that it would take an unlikely – combination of death and impeachment to get him the seat now, so – there’s no point in playing anymore. –   WOW! The only reason Ken Starr had to accept the job as special -prosecutor was to get that supreme court seat? And here I thought that -he was gunning for president of the World Bank! Remedial reading courses for you.  No wonder you still think the Whitewater investigation is an open case.  It’s been pointed out many a time that Starr had lots to gain from defeating Clinton’s reelection, but I suppose you were too busy yelling "He’s guilty!" to hear. –   By the way, lets tick off the salient points of this "waste of time" –      1: Bill & Hillary get into the Whitewater Development Corp, and -become equal partners, for less money than the land was worth. –      2: The Whitewater Development Corp throws several parties at which -people who want to support Bill Clinton give money to the corporation -for "Options to buy" on property owned by Whitewater. The money is -available through a draw account to the firms partners (Jim McDougal and -Bill Clinton) –       3: The price of the land keeps rising, parties keep getting -thrown, and Bill Clinton keeps discovering all this money that helps him -with his campaign finances. –      4: The property is evaluated professionally, after the election, -and it reverts to the declared value that it was when Bill & Hillary -bought in. On paper, Bill Clinton loses $60,000+, which he uses on his -tax returns to reduce his capital gains tax. You’ve neglected the fact that Clinton lost money on the deal, that he was making the payments himself to keep the property out of forclosure, that McDougal had a history of hyperbole in the interest of dealmaking, that there’s never been any evidence warranting an indictment found. –      Now if Bill Clinton were to change his political affiliation to -Republican tomorrow, the left would rejoice in the fact that it would -prove that Republicans are unethical. It would, in fact, prove no such -thing, but I do believe that items 1-4 above prove Bill Clinton to be -unethical. If you want the citations of these points, I will gladly go -back to the various stories covering Whitewater and its timeline and -plaster the newsgroup with quotations. Yes, yes there have been prlenty of speculations in the newspapers and other places on Whitewater, you can pile on the rumours and claims hipdeep, but why oh why hasn’t there been any indictments of the President or Mrs. Clinton? – the On the other hand, if you haven’t -been screaming "Bill’s Innocent" so loud that you couldn’t hear, Actually, I’ve never taken a stand one way or the other on Clinton’s guilt, it’s just so easy to skewer most of the guilty arguments that I can’t resist. – you -probably saw and read at least some of these points, so I hope we can -take this as a mutual ground. Note that I did not include the bringing -of the Arkansas Mafia to Washington and the hiring of Rose law firm -lawyers  by the Whitre House, I don’t want any charges of cronyism -muddying the waters. The spoild system is a fact of life.  D’oh! – I also didn’t include the disgrace of Webster Hubbell, the death of -Vince Foster, You didn’t mention the death of three of his former bodyguards at Waco… how strange… -or the questionable campaign finance deals with the -asians. While these certainly bolster the case that Bill Clinton is -unethical, and point to the kind of crime that Whitewater probably is, -they are side issues. –      However, i would hope that we could agree that a thorough, fair, -investigation is certainly in the best interests of the people. Yes, how about a FAIR investigation led by someone who has nothing to gain, and no ax to grind with the target?  It’s about time. Actually, since Starr, with his high level of motivation, hasn’t been able to finsd a crime, I doubt that an unbiased prosecutor would either. –      3:   – As for how the witch-hunt would look on a resume, haven’t you ever – heard of a think tank?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP The curious thing is that Starr was also investigating Filegate and the Travel Office scandel.  Billy Dale just got compensated by the government for his legal fees, so that might have shut the door on that.  But I’m mildly surprised that Craig Livingstone wasn’t charged with anything. HUH?  The investigation hasn’t stopped.  Do you even know what your talking about?  "Craig LIvingstone wasn’t charged with anything"?  Since when was Livingtone cleared of any wrongdoing?  Gem of logic, here. "…wasn’t charged…" is invalidated by "[wasn't]  cleared". Soooo…the fact you’ve never been charged with incest  is irrelevant because *you’ve* never been cleared of them. I *like* it.

Not quite the same thing.  I am not, nor ever have been under investigation for incest.  If I had been investigated for incest, then the authorities announce that I am no longer a suspect, then I am cleared of any wrong doing. Mr. Livingstone is still under investigation for illegally obtaining FBI files.  When someone states that "I’m mildly suprised that Craig Livingstone wasn’t charged with anything", that implies that he will not be charged with anything.  If I’m being investigated for incest, but the authorities have not yet arrested me, would it be rational to say that I wasn’t going to be charged with anything?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP Yup, it doesn’t look good for any criminal charges against the President based on Whitewater.  Then again, it never did.  The intent of the special prosecutor law is to allow for a fair investigation when some of the parties involved fall into a narrowly defined band of public officials whose position might allow them to influence any investigations by the Justice Department.  That means a special prosecutor is appointed not to nail the President (necessarily) but rather because the President might influence any investigation to protect friends and associates.  And Starr did a pretty good job of rounding up a good number of friends and associates. The curious thing is that Starr was also investigating Filegate and the Travel Office scandel.  Billy Dale just got compensated by the government for his legal fees, so that might have shut the door on that.  But I’m mildly surprised that Craig Livingstone wasn’t charged with anything. HUH?  The investigation hasn’t stopped.  Do you even know what your talking about?  "Craig LIvingstone wasn’t charged with anything"?  Since when was Livingtone cleared of any wrongdoing?

The fact of the matter is that you don’t quit a major case like whitewater because things are going well. Starr is bailing out. His only witness is a confirmed liar. The whole case was bullshit from day one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gem of logic, here. "…wasn’t charged…" is invalidated by "[wasn't] cleared". Soooo…the fact you’ve never been charged with incest is irrelevant because *you’ve* never been cleared of them. I *like* it. — rha

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry Truly amazing and more than meets the eye. Pepperdine is littlem more than a diploma mill. He didn’t leave to go to Harvard or even Georgetown?  Wow.  Didn’t leave to be a bigshot corporate board member?  Wow. If he truly is leaving to go to Pepperdine, it’s worse than you might think. He has no credibility even among his GOP friends. Guess the evidence just wasn’t there to get him a job at a REAL university. Gail Gail and Harry, hope while you can.  I think this will come to court soon and ole Ken is just securing future employment.  Ole Jim McD has led him to much more credible evidence than either his or (in love with Slick) Susan’s testimony could possibly be. You’re welcome, jwt/ke5p Heh. I guess you know exactly what Jim told ole Ken. By any chance was Jim talking to Ken over a cellular phone…and your scanner just happened to be on? Or is this just you blowing neo-con smoke? Errrr, never mind. (Waving hand in front of face.) — rha rha, have you heard the latest?  The so-called ‘mock trials’ NEVER happened!  The story was just demo propaganda.  Also, Ken Starr just hired two highly specialized prosecutors.  Why? Certainly not because he is giving up, but probably to insure the investigation and prosecution will not suffer if he leaves before it comes to trial.  He has set the stage very well and is confident in the casts to do their jobs. jwt/ke5p

Yes, moreover his deputy (who will replace him if he does not finish his job) is a lot more energetic. So despite Carville bulshit, getting Starr out of the case can make Clinton’s trouble a lot worse. Tom

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–  He has set the -stage very well and is confident in the casts to do their jobs. Good choice of words there.  It’s been nothing but a performance all along.

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It really is of no consequence why he is quitting.  The fact is Hillary-Rodham has been exposed for the criminal she is whether she is indicted or not.  It is a fact that federal prosecutions only occurr when the potential verdict can produce severe enough penalties.  For instance, the FBI will not investigate, nor will a federal prosecutor accept for prosecution any bank embezzelment case where the amount embezzeled is $14,999.00 or less.  You may be sure that GAO will audit the expenditure of funds by the special prosecutor.  They have done this in every instance of the use of a federal prosecutor and, interestingly enough, the only one who has been criticized for even possible misuse of funds is the democrat who indicted Casper Winberger on the Friday afternoon before the 1992 election.  Recall that one?  Check it out.   Additionally, the investigation may well go on for another two years if it gets bogged down in the Huan matter and other forms of Clinton administration money laundering.   Those of you who rejoice had better consider the potential for indictment is far from over. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe   I demand an investigation of why Starr is quiting. And a   thorough accounting of all funds. Yes, yes, yes, I LOVE IT! — rha

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They need a "snitch" like John Dean to overcome the stonewalling the Clinton WH has been pulling. They have two but they have both been proven to be callous liars. Also I believe alot of the documents have been shredded by Her Royal Highness (that is Hillary Rodham.  They have had so many years to do I’m not sure any documents or materials are available. You seem to have the First Lady confused with Oliver North and fawn Hall.

  The existance of other people who are guilty of shredding evidence does nothing to prove anything about the first lady, one way or the other. This is like saying that OJ can’t be guilty because there is another person already serving time for the crime of murder. You right wing fools should be getting used to being on the losing side what with Dole/Kemp and Newt and all.

   The only way we could be on the losing side is for people to mistake what you spout for "evidence". If we were to take all the snide comments out and require good, logical argument, you wouldn’t be able to post anymore.    Once again, what does Dole/Kemp coming in second have to do with the accusation that Hillary Clinton withheld evidence and shredded documents that were under subpoena? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        Jim I’ll try to not be moronic if you’ll try to be smarter.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: – Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe – [...] – Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, – Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. -It’s a career move. He wants to get out of a waste of time -and money while the getting’s good. After all, how do you -think that looks on a resume? Little late for that, don’t you think?  But it does look like he’s given up hope for an impeachment.

  Let me dust off Leon Jaworski’s resume and see how it reads…..I’d say, not too bad! My guess is that he hoped he could spread enough mud to sink Clinton’s reelection and build up points for that Supreme Court seat, but now that game is lost.  He’s well aware that it would take an unlikely combination of death and impeachment to get him the seat now, so there’s no point in playing anymore.

   WOW! The only reason Ken Starr had to accept the job as special prosecutor was to get that supreme court seat? And here I thought that he was gunning for president of the World Bank!    By the way, lets tick off the salient points of this "waste of time"       1: Bill & Hillary get into the Whitewater Development Corp, and become equal partners, for less money than the land was worth.       2: The Whitewater Development Corp throws several parties at which people who want to support Bill Clinton give money to the corporation for "Options to buy" on property owned by Whitewater. The money is available through a draw account to the firms partners (Jim McDougal and Bill Clinton)        3: The price of the land keeps rising, parties keep getting thrown, and Bill Clinton keeps discovering all this money that helps him with his campaign finances.       4: The property is evaluated professionally, after the election, and it reverts to the declared value that it was when Bill & Hillary bought in. On paper, Bill Clinton loses $60,000+, which he uses on his tax returns to reduce his capital gains tax.       Now if Bill Clinton were to change his political affiliation to Republican tomorrow, the left would rejoice in the fact that it would prove that Republicans are unethical. It would, in fact, prove no such thing, but I do believe that items 1-4 above prove Bill Clinton to be unethical. If you want the citations of these points, I will gladly go back to the various stories covering Whitewater and its timeline and plaster the newsgroup with quotations.On the other hand, if you haven’t been screaming "Bill’s Innocent" so loud that you couldn’t hear, you probably saw and read at least some of these points, so I hope we can take this as a mutual ground. Note that I did not include the bringing of the Arkansas Mafia to Washington and the hiring of Rose law firm lawyers  by the Whitre House, I don’t want any charges of cronyism muddying the waters.  I also didn’t include the disgrace of Webster Hubbell, the death of Vince Foster, or the questionable campaign finance deals with the asians. While these certainly bolster the case that Bill Clinton is unethical, and point to the kind of crime that Whitewater probably is, they are side issues.       However, i would hope that we could agree that a thorough, fair, investigation is certainly in the best interests of the people.       3:   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As for how the witch-hunt would look on a resume, haven’t you ever heard of a think tank?

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– From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: – Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe – [...] – Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, – Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. -It’s a career move. He wants to get out of a waste of time -and money while the getting’s good. After all, how do you -think that looks on a resume? Little late for that, don’t you think?  But it does look like he’s given up hope for an impeachment. My guess is that he hoped he could spread enough mud to sink Clinton’s reelection and build up points for that Supreme Court seat, but now that game is lost.  He’s well aware that it would take an unlikely combination of death and impeachment to get him the seat now, so there’s no point in playing anymore. As for how the witch-hunt would look on a resume, haven’t you ever heard of a think tank?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry Truly amazing and more than meets the eye. Pepperdine is littlem more than a diploma mill. He didn’t leave to go to Harvard or even Georgetown?  Wow.  Didn’t leave to be a bigshot corporate board member?  Wow. If he truly is leaving to go to Pepperdine, it’s worse than you might think. He has no credibility even among his GOP friends. Guess the evidence just wasn’t there to get him a job at a REAL university. Gail Gail and Harry, hope while you can.  I think this will come to court soon and ole Ken is just securing future employment.  Ole Jim McD has led him to much more credible evidence than either his or (in love with Slick) Susan’s testimony could possibly be. You’re welcome, jwt/ke5p Heh. I guess you know exactly what Jim told ole Ken. By any chance was Jim talking to Ken over a cellular phone…and your scanner just happened to be on? Or is this just you blowing neo-con smoke? Errrr, never mind. (Waving hand in front of face.) — rha

rha, have you heard the latest?  The so-called ‘mock trials’ NEVER happened!  The story was just demo propaganda.  Also, Ken Starr just hired two highly specialized prosecutors.  Why? Certainly not because he is giving up, but probably to insure the investigation and prosecution will not suffer if he leaves before it comes to trial.  He has set the stage very well and is confident in the casts to do their jobs. jwt/ke5p

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Firewall Echo (CC) — I find it quite amusing, that a person of Starr’s position & reputation would take a "chance of a lifetime" position at a private, and mostly conservative educational institution such as Pepperdine U. …And appearing to abandon all hopes of indicting the First Family;  A ploy?  Perhaps. Kenneth Starr, Chief Independent Counsel in/of the Whitewater Affair, has yet to redeem his reasons for vacating his tenure — He has declined comment to date. Moreover, it is quite ironic that he would settle, if not resort to a petty strategem(s) that are quite transparent to the more discerning of pundits & political tacticians …Especially, those who are intimate with the motivations of such a limited perspective, that serves to (& has, ad infinitum) undermine an impetus which seeks to divulge the true nefarious intent of those who cling to -power- by the mere shred of a whim, promise & a witless ‘contract.’ – Dominic   (conveying to Republicans …One should not throw stones    in a glass-house such as Congress)

   Let me see if I have this straight. A special prosecutor was appointed to investigate the Whitewater affair (out of deference to Mr Kennemur I won’t refer to it as the Whitewater Scandal). From the time the prosecutor is appointed until shortly after the president he is investigating has assumed office for his second term, we hear nothing from the left except how partisan and unfair a man Kenneth Starr is.    One month after Clinton’s first term ends, Mr Starr resigns, and now, because he was so partisan and unfair, he obviously resigned because he had no case.    Never mind the fact that, to date, there has been no evidence that Kenneth Starr did anything in a partisan or unfair manner in the Whitewater investigation.    Never mind the fact that he answered his critics who claimed that the perception would be that the investigation would not proceed as vigourously.    Never mind that the left is now exposed as wanting, not a fair and impartial investigation, but a whitewash of Whitewater.    Kenneth starr’s departure only emphasizes the no-win situation he was in. No matter what evidence he had gathered, the left would still be screaming "It’s all politics"    And that last bit, about the message being that one should not throw stones in a glass house such as congress…that really takes the cake. The premis that most, if not all, congresspeople are corrupt, and that any behavior is therefor OK, reminds me of a Democratic election judge I witnessed walking into the voting booth with her friends, in order to show them how to vote the straight Democratic ticket. When faced with the accusation that she was breaking the election laws she was there to enforce, her defense was "Oh, the Republicans are doing it elsewhere" (a Tu Quoque fallacy).    Even if it should be true that ALL republicans are corrupt (something I find highly unlikely) it would have nothing whatever to do with Bill Clinton’s corruption as he was never a member of congress. If the legislators are corrupt, then let’s go after them, but do not let it deter us from holding the president of the united states accountable for his actions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –               5th Centurion             |  YU3′Y3_3′Y3YU3′Y3_3′Y3Y3_3′Y3YYUU   Centurion Chronicles (c) &  Web Page  |  YU3′Y3_3′Y3YU3′Y3_3′Y3Y3_3′Y3YYUU     <http://www.webcom.com/centrnv/    |  YU3′Y3_3′Y3YU3′Y3_3′Y3Y3_3′Y3YYUU          Last Updated: 2/3/97           |  YU3   Volpus   Y3_3   Marina  YUU Featured Links:                    The 2nd Amendment Is Not An Excuse                <http://www.webcom.com/centrnv/gunfaq.html                May Odell’s Prevarication Never Be Forgotten         <ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ce/centrnv/despicable/tko2.txt             Thus May We Never Ever Forget The *Most* Despicable       <ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ce/centrnv/despicable/despicable.txt

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry

Go ahead and feel good (hope) while you can, Harry.  Even if he leaves the job he can still prosecute the cases.  I think he’s expecting the case to come to court (after indictments) soon and is securing future employment.  jwt/ke5p

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry If Starr is ready to idict….his investigation will be over.  Looks like the cat will be let out of the bag by summer.

Remember, testimony aside, ole Jim McD has been a big help for Ken Starr in helping him to connect the dots in this case.  He doesn’t need Susan because she is even less credible than Jim.  jwt/ke5p

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry

If Starr is ready to idict….his investigation will be over.  Looks like the cat will be let out of the bag by summer.

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From the Associated Press, 2/17/97: Starr To Quit Whitewater Probe                          By PETE YOST                          Associated Press Writer                          Monday, February 17, 1997 WASHINGTON (AP) — In a surprising development, a California university said Monday that Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Starr will step down from the probe to join the school this summer, raising questions about whether his investigation of President Clinton and the first lady is at an end. The Whitewater investigation, which Starr has led for the past 2 1/2 years, is at a critical juncture with prosecutors weighing the evidence involving the president and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Starr and the Whitewater prosecutor’s office were silent after the announcement by Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Guess the kitchen got to hot for him. So long, Kenny, don,t call us we’ll call you. Harry

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