Question:

i just bought Atkins’ book. here are some questions i have. i haven’t read the whole thing (bought it at 9:30 last night). 1) do i HAVE to eat chicken with the skin on? esp. for induction? i have a whole freezer load of boneless, skinless chicken breasts. can i have those? 2) i prefer turkey bacon over "real" bacon. can i eat turkey bacon liberally and not have to worry about it being nitrate-free? 3) i like a splash of milk in my scrambled eggs? can i have a splash (probably way less than 1/8 cup) during induction? 4) anyone do induction by drinking caffeine? i am a diet coke addict and i’m not sure how i will fare w/o my daily dose. 5) what was the hardest part of induction and the program in general? i’m already dreading people making me believe i am missing out and being deprived because i can’t have a piece of bread (or whatever). any quick comebacks i can nick from someone? i’m already thinking i’ll say something like, "i want to get healthier more than i want to eat a piece of bread." thanx in advance, pam

Response:

1) No you dont have to eat it that way, but you can. 2) Yes you can eat the turkey bacon, but it is lower in fat and we are not trying to keep our fat down. If you make it, cook it in olive oil. 3) NO MILK. Try cream instead. 4) Atkins is anti caffeine because of the results of a diet soda study. Feel free to caffienate. Some people even use a ephedra, caffeine, asparin stack (ECA stack) to loose more weight. 5) The hardest part of induction is the first week of feeling your body go through very odd changes. Once you get past them it is clear sailing. You are not missing out on anyting except a shorter life. Feel free to tell people that. If people ask what diet you are on say a LOW CARB diet or a low glycemic diet. The idiots out there think Atkins is a fad and not healthy. Confusing them with the technical terms of the diet is helpful. If they press you, you can say you are using the information in the Atkins book as a guideline. Do get your blood checked so you have evidence once you have gotten through this and can state with confidence that you will live longer this way. You do still have the choice to moderate on foods, on occasion, which are high carb if you feel like it. You still have the option to not miss out on some of the "forbiden" foods once and a while. And restaurants are VERY cool about low carbers now. Ordering meals without starches is not unusual at all and many will even offer low low carb substitutes in the starches absense. It is really getting pretty cool in the restaurant world for us LC’ers. My best advice. STICK WITH IT. There will be moments while in induction that will be very odd indeed, but realize that those moments are reinforcement that you are doing something right for YOU. Be selfish about this and do what YOU want to do with YOUR life. The only thing that people will be able to say in 6 months is "WOW, you have come a long way. How did you do that? You look great."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i just bought Atkins’ book. here are some questions i have. i haven’t read the whole thing (bought it at 9:30 last night). 1) do i HAVE to eat chicken with the skin on? esp. for induction? i have a whole freezer load of boneless, skinless chicken breasts. can i have those? 2) i prefer turkey bacon over "real" bacon. can i eat turkey bacon liberally and not have to worry about it being nitrate-free? 3) i like a splash of milk in my scrambled eggs? can i have a splash (probably way less than 1/8 cup) during induction? 4) anyone do induction by drinking caffeine? i am a diet coke addict and i’m not sure how i will fare w/o my daily dose. 5) what was the hardest part of induction and the program in general? i’m already dreading people making me believe i am missing out and being deprived because i can’t have a piece of bread (or whatever). any quick comebacks i can nick from someone? i’m already thinking i’ll say something like, "i want to get healthier more than i want to eat a piece of bread." thanx in advance, pam

Response:

i just bought Atkins’ book. here are some questions i have. i haven’t read the whole thing (bought it at 9:30 last night). 1) do i HAVE to eat chicken with the skin on? esp. for induction? i have a whole freezer load of boneless, skinless chicken breasts. can i have those?

Sure. You don’t have to cut the skin off (like some people do), unless you prefer chicken with no skin. Just marinate or saute it in something oil based, so you get enough fat. 2) i prefer turkey bacon over "real" bacon. can i eat turkey bacon liberally and not have to worry about it being nitrate-free?

No accounting for taste! I’ve eaten turkey bacon and sausage, by mistake. I won’t make that mistake again. Think about your protein vs fat balance. 3) i like a splash of milk in my scrambled eggs? can i have a splash (probably way less than 1/8 cup) during induction?

Well, let’s do the arithmetic. You’re going to have 20 g/carb per day during induction, of which 1 or 2 will be from the milk? You *could* do that. Or you could just use a smidge of heavy cream instead, for half the carb content. 4) anyone do induction by drinking caffeine? i am a diet coke addict and i’m not sure how i will fare w/o my daily dose.

Some people get stalled by the caffeine and/or other ingredients in the soda. On the other hand, some people get serious caffeine withdrawal symptoms on top of the carb withdrawal. Your body, your science experiment. AF — "it’s good to know that this country hasn’t lost touch with its founding values and principles:  freedom for all, a government of the people, for the people and by the people and a personal relationship with Loki." — sam h shares his vision of the American Dream

Response:

1) do i HAVE to eat chicken with the skin on? esp. for induction? i have a whole freezer load of boneless, skinless chicken breasts. can i have those?

Of course you can.  What leads you to think you can’t?  Most people like the skin, so I think Atkins is pointing out that you can have it.  But if you read his recipes, you’ll notice that many of them call for boneless skinless thighs or breasts. 2) i prefer turkey bacon over "real" bacon. can i eat turkey bacon liberally and not have to worry about it being nitrate-free?

Not sure what you’re asking.  You *want* nitrate-free products.  If your turkey bacon is nitrate-free, great.  I eat nitrate-containing pork bacon, but very infrequently. 3) i like a splash of milk in my scrambled eggs? can i have a splash (probably way less than 1/8 cup) during induction?

Try cream, or water, or both (what I do).  But if you must use milk, count the carbs.  2 tablespoons is 1 gram. 4) anyone do induction by drinking caffeine? i am a diet coke addict and i’m not sure how i will fare w/o my daily dose.

I had caffeine headaches, so I brought one daily full-strength espresso back into my diet.  For most people, aspartame is the issue of Diet Coke, not the caffeine.  Try Diet Rite–no aspartame, no caffeine, and yummy, especially the flavors. 5) what was the hardest part of induction and the program in general?

I’ve only been doing it a few weeks, but "hard" is not a word I’d use so far.  I felt dreadful the third and fourth days from carb withdrawal, but other than that, the experience has been great.  The only "hard" thing is keeping track of everything you eat. i’m already dreading people making me believe i am missing out and being deprived because i can’t have a piece of bread (or whatever). any quick comebacks i can nick from someone? i’m already thinking i’ll say something like, "i want to get healthier more than i want to eat a piece of bread."

How about, "No, thank you?"  I prefer not to discuss my reasons. — Trey 225/208/145 Started Atkins Induction 07/22/02 Started OWL 08/08/02 — currently at 25 g carbs

Response:

1) no skin req. 2)turkey o.k. count carbs. 3)you probably shouldn’t if you wont miss it to much but if you do count carbs. 4)I’ve had a diet pepsi or two a week, caffiene just makes you crave. 5)hardest part for me is the first 3 to 5 days. you can have bread after a while there’s only 10 carbs. in one slice. I have eggs on a slice in the morning sometimes w/o going over 35 carbs in that day. check out you health food stores for sweets and breads you’re allowed to have.

Response:

Trey 225/207/145

what are these numbers? (i am only on page 30-something w/ atkins) i thought it was weight but you couldn’t have lost eighty pounds in 3 weeks, uh, right? pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Started Atkins Induction 07/22/02 Started OWL 08/08/02 — currently at 25 g carbs

Response:

5) The hardest part of induction is the first week of feeling your body go through very odd changes. Once you get past them it is clear sailing. You are not missing out on anyting except a shorter life. Feel free to tell people that. If people ask what diet you are on say a LOW CARB diet or a low glycemic diet.

I usually say i am on a carbohydrate controlled intake plan. if you say diet people go crazy trying to disprove it. its just easier than saying diet. though it is a mouthful. heh, no pun intended. Sponky

Response:

Trey 225/207/145 what are these numbers? (i am only on page 30-something w/ atkins) i thought it was weight but you couldn’t have lost eighty pounds in 3 weeks, uh, right?

Start weight/current weight/goal weight — Trey 225/207/145 Started Atkins Induction 07/22/02 Started OWL 08/08/02 — currently at 25 g carbs

Response:

Just the whole process of switching from carb burning to fat burning makes your body do strange things. Feeling lethargic, tired, sick, headaches, these are all things (and there are more) that people tend to mention as problems for the first week or two. Once you are deep into lipolisis though you will be done with these feelings and all will be better than before, but do not be surprised when you feel "unusual" for the begining of this adventure.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 5) The hardest part of induction is the first week of feeling your body go through very odd changes. uh…like what?

Response:

5) The hardest part of induction is the first week of feeling your body go through very odd changes.

uh…like what?

Response:

5) The hardest part of induction is the first week of feeling your body go through very odd changes. uh…like what?

Everybody’s different–some people have reported no odd feelings at all, some feel wretched and want to die (or quit Atkins), and some feel great. As for me, I had an awful headache.  Not a migraine, just a terrible tightness at the back of my skull that wouldn’t go away for 48 hours (days three and four, continuing in the background if I thought about it on into days five and six), even with pain relievers.  I believe it was caffeine withdrawal–a nice heavy-cream cappucino with full-strength espresso reduced the pain quite a bit.  Apparently quitting caffeine is not essential to the process of Induction, though it is desirable if you can manage it.  I couldn’t, though my daily caffeine consumption now is about 15% of what it was before Induction. I also had stomach distress–not cramps, not nausea, just tightness and churning.  I felt very hot, and sweated quite a bit.  I felt weak and my large muscles in the arms and legs spasmed a bit.  These were probably symptoms of carbohydrate withdrawal. I had odd and elaborate dreams having to do with food and counting carbs.  One I remember vividly was learning that you could eat a banana cream pie without counting the carbs if the entire pie was eaten in one sitting exactly N minutes after breakfast, where N was a number derived from the effective carb count, fat content, and number of bananas in the pie by some complex equation.  I think I had read articles about CAD, stacking, and CKD that day and my brain was trying to process all that information–that’s what dreams are for.  I was a bit annoyed when I awoke from that one and realized it wasn’t true. Finally, I generally felt out of sorts and "wrong".  Several people on the NG said that sounded like candida (systemic yeast colonization) die-off.  Sure enough, my dentist noticed an enormous improvement in my oral candida a couple days later–and he had seen me just a week before. These symptoms were all only during days three, four, and the beginning of five on Induction.  Many people report extreme hunger on days one and two, going into three and four, but just before starting Induction I was ill, and just called two days I didn’t eat hardly at all days one and two by fiat and started eating on day three.  So I can’t speak to hunger on those days. By the end of day five, I felt great, and the appetite supression of ketosis was in full swing.  I’ve felt good since, and many of my ongoing pre-Atkins complaints, including brain-fog, occassional headaches, GERD, and IBS, have vanished or reduced substantially. — Trey 225/207/145 Started Atkins Induction 07/22/02 Started OWL 08/08/02 — currently at 25 g carbs

Response:

wayne- you are too funny! thanx for the laugh. pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -As for other people…they’ll look at you like your nuts or rush to catch your kidneys which they think are going to fall out. Waitresses will leave the bread bowl through dessert because they are convinced you just forgot to eat it. Well, the way I fought this was simply not to tell anyone what I was doing. Only if they asked and were very interested did I describe the WOE. Now that there is an obvious difference in my body, I proudly say I’m doing Atkins. Screw ‘em….it’s my life and it will be longer now that I am 40% of a person lighter. Wayne Crannell 250/160.5/155 Atkins 10/27/01

Response:

dean- thanx. this is so touching i am going to print it and keep it for inspiration! pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My best advice. STICK WITH IT. There will be moments while in induction that will be very odd indeed, but realize that those moments are reinforcement that you are doing something right for YOU. Be selfish about this and do what YOU want to do with YOUR life. The only thing that people will be able to say in 6 months is "WOW, you have come a long way. How did you do that? You look great."

Response:

3) i like a splash of milk in my scrambled eggs? can i have a splash (probably way less than 1/8 cup) during induction? Try cream, or water, or both (what I do).  But if you must use milk, count the carbs.  2 tablespoons is 1 gram.

Oops!  2 tablespoons is 1.5 gram whole milk.  More for 2% or skim. I’ve memorized lots of carb counts, but not of things I don’t have, like milk! — Trey 225/207/145 Started Atkins Induction 07/22/02 Started OWL 08/08/02 — currently at 25 g carbs

Response:

1) do i HAVE to eat chicken with the skin on? esp. for induction? i have a whole freezer load of boneless, skinless chicken breasts. can i have those? Sure. You don’t have to cut the skin off (like some people do), unless you prefer chicken with no skin. Just marinate or saute it in something oil based, so you get enough fat.

You can also saute in butter.  I’ve been using butter more often than olive oil during induction.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i just bought Atkins’ book. here are some questions i have. i haven’t read the whole thing (bought it at 9:30 last night). 1) do i HAVE to eat chicken with the skin on? esp. for induction? i have a whole freezer load of boneless, skinless chicken breasts. can i have those? 2) i prefer turkey bacon over "real" bacon. can i eat turkey bacon liberally and not have to worry about it being nitrate-free? 3) i like a splash of milk in my scrambled eggs? can i have a splash (probably way less than 1/8 cup) during induction? 4) anyone do induction by drinking caffeine? i am a diet coke addict and i’m not sure how i will fare w/o my daily dose. 5) what was the hardest part of induction and the program in general? i’m already dreading people making me believe i am missing out and being deprived because i can’t have a piece of bread (or whatever). any quick comebacks i can nick from someone? i’m already thinking i’ll say something like, "i want to get healthier more than i want to eat a piece of bread." thanx in advance, pam

Here’s my 2 cents, and remember you get what you pay for. 1. I eat almost nothing BUT boneless, skinless. I get fat from other sources. I’m not adverse to a well-prepared plate of wings though! 2. Turkey bacon will have more carbs. Check the label for nitrates. I’m guessing the normal turkey bacon will have some. 3. How about a splash of cream in your eggs, or better yet, water. Water is the best for fluffiness. 4. Lot’s of people do caffeine. I changed to decaf simply as a mental thing…..sort of the "complete, new lifestyle" approach. These days I use about 2/3 decaf and 1/3 caf. I’ll have a triple espresso once in a while though. 5. The hardest part was the first few days. Just changing the mindset was tough. But once I decided, I simply refused to give in. No cheats. Ever. I’m just a really stubborn bastard, and still am. Now it is second nature to push the bread away and never even taste someting with carbs in it. (For example, today, I for the first time ate sugar free jelly beans – 9 of them…yes, I counted – you’d think I ran over a puppy what with all the guilt I experienced. However, being that they were sweetened with malitol, I did in fact pay the pennance later As for other people…they’ll look at you like your nuts or rush to catch your kidneys which they think are going to fall out. Waitresses will leave the bread bowl through dessert because they are convinced you just forgot to eat it. Well, the way I fought this was simply not to tell anyone what I was doing. Only if they asked and were very interested did I describe the WOE. Now that there is an obvious difference in my body, I proudly say I’m doing Atkins. Screw ‘em….it’s my life and it will be longer now that I am 40% of a person lighter. Wayne Crannell 250/160.5/155 Atkins 10/27/01

Response:

Question:

Timberline has the reputation of being the number 1 accounting program for the construction business.  Last I checked it was a very pricy package.  But it did just about everything.  I’ve looked at it as I’m developing a package that will be a lot lower priced and not quite as extensive to compete with it. Bill Couture

Response:

Hello: I am on a project now with a client who has the Timberline software.  The users have turned over so much there is not a lot of inhouse knowledge.  My background is in Solomon and Oracle so I am feeling my way on this. Is this software capable of generating an invoice?  And if so, are there templates we can send to a printer for preprinted invoice stock or a continuous forms supplier that does? Also, the users have said that only 2 months can be open and that current cash postings cannot be seen because of the open months.  Is their a way thecollectors can see what is posted and save some useless/embarassing calls?

There is an affordable, quick to learn and easy to run alternative to Timberline. A-Systems has been providing job cost accounting software to the construction industry since 1978.  You may view screens from A-Systems JobView and request a Free Trial version of the software at  www.a-systems.net .  A Free Trial is full running version of the Preferred Edition of A-Systems JobView.  It may be run without restriction for 5,000 transactions during an evaluation period.  If more time is needed, A-Systems will extend it. By the way, A-Systems JobView allows the user to have as many open fiscal periods as they want.  Current cash postings are available at the click of the mouse. A-Systems is definitely the smaller of the two companies, but their software lacks nothing except a high price tag. By the way part 2, the Free Trial CD also comes with 50 sessions of training, also at no cost. Arnold S. Grundvig, Jr. A-Systems Corporation

Response:

Hello: I am on a project now with a client who has the Timberline software.  The users have turned over so much there is not a lot of inhouse knowledge.  My background is in Solomon and Oracle so I am feeling my way on this.   Is this software capable of generating an invoice?  And if so, are there templates we can send to a printer for preprinted invoice stock or a continuous forms supplier that does? Also, the users have said that only 2 months can be open and that current cash postings cannot be seen because of the open months.  Is their a way the collectors can see what is posted and save some useless/embarassing calls? thanks in advance for help on these questions John J. Fisher Houston, Texas

Response:

Question:

Thank you. — The man who can right himself by a vote will seldom resort to a musket. James Fenimore Cooper, , 1838

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Centuries  ago,  Nostradamus   foresaw   when   "Republican  Engineer" A certain accountant   in Vancouver charged me   for doing GST   tax audit…I paid  him. Today I  got a notice in the  mail that I owe a small   fortune    because the    accountant  failed  to   submit my material. Any suggestions? Where in  Canada does one complain  about Accountants? You should readily be able to determine  which organization to look to based on the letters after his name. If he’s a  CA, then you most   likely should contact the Institute  of Chartered Accountants  of British Columbia.   For more  details, visit their web site: <http://www.ica.bc.ca/ The other possibility would be that he’s a CGA; see <http://www.cga-bc.org/ for more details. — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/internet.html "Let me blow that up a bit more for you." — Colin Powell, Discussing a picture of the intelligence compound in    Iraq

Response:

A certain accountant in Vancouver charged me for doing GST tax audit…I paid him. Today I got a notice in the mail that I owe a small fortune because the accountant failed to submit my material. Any suggestions? Where in Canada does one complain about Accountants? — The man who can right himself by a vote will seldom resort to a musket. James Fenimore Cooper, , 1838

Response:

Centuries  ago,  Nostradamus   foresaw   when   "Republican  Engineer" A certain accountant   in Vancouver charged me   for doing GST   tax audit…I paid  him. Today I  got a notice in the  mail that I owe a small   fortune    because the    accountant  failed  to   submit my material. Any suggestions? Where in  Canada does one complain  about Accountants?

You should readily be able to determine  which organization to look to based on the letters after his name. If he’s a  CA, then you most   likely should contact the Institute  of Chartered Accountants  of British Columbia.   For more  details, visit their web site: <http://www.ica.bc.ca/ The other possibility would be that he’s a CGA; see <http://www.cga-bc.org/ for more details. — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/internet.html "Let me blow that up a bit more for you." — Colin Powell, Discussing a picture of the intelligence compound in    Iraq

Response:

Question:

I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

can’t help you with the proggie but just wanted to point out the obvious — if you have MS excel, you can just make a table with a graph yourself. it’s fun and you have a lot of options regarding the visual output. it also exports to web pages. here’s mine (kinda old but you get the idea): http://zarathustra.pentragon.net/temp/tummy.htm nina 210/153/140

Response:

I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

If you register at www.fitday.com, you can input your weight, and a goal weight/date, and access the kind of graph you describe. Mardi — To reply by e-mail, please replace <NOSPAM with <NYCAP.rr. But not to send me spam!  I never requested your "report," and I’m not interested in your pyramid scheme which, by the way, is NOT legal!

Response:

Was this a shareware program?  Perhaps they have a newer version that works with ME?  What is the name of the program? — Melissa 140/122/118

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

Thank you all for the input!  I cannot remember the name of the program exactly but the exe was called dtk.exe and it was made by a company named Softrak who I can no longer find on the Web.  I don’t have Excel on my computer but that is a good idea!  Thanks!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was this a shareware program?  Perhaps they have a newer version that works with ME?  What is the name of the program? — Melissa 140/122/118 I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

See if you can find anything here: http://download.cnet.com/downloads/1,10150,0-10001-103-0-1-7,00.html?… h&qt=weight+loss&cn=&ca=10001

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

well I found a few softrak websites… they look like accounting things. One is www.softrak.com another is.. www.stepwise.com/softrak. I did a google search for softrak and these are only two of the ones I found.  Not sure exactly what the company is so I don’t know if it’s them. But try the google search and sort through.. Perhaps you will find it there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you all for the input!  I cannot remember the name of the program exactly but the exe was called dtk.exe and it was made by a company named Softrak who I can no longer find on the Web.  I don’t have Excel on my computer but that is a good idea!  Thanks! Was this a shareware program?  Perhaps they have a newer version that works with ME?  What is the name of the program? — Melissa 140/122/118 I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

Question:

Even if Cairns is correct, and I don’t know that he is, I imagine the 5% who benefit are grateful for chemotherapy.  And how do we know which individuals who make up the 50% figure are going to be of the 5% that benefit?  If none are given chemo, than there would not be that alleged 5% that benefit.  Last I heard, nobody is forcing adults to take chemotherapy.

You are naive.  They know what works re chemo but dish it out anyway even if it doesn’t.  Read Moss book Questioning Chemo.  Adults trust the doctors as they don’t know anything re cancer or chemo. "Two to 4% of cancers respond to chemotherapy..The bottom line is for a few kinds of cancer chemo is a life extending procedure—Hodgkin’s disease, Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia (ALL), Testicular cancer, and Choriocarcinoma."—-Ralph Moss, Ph.D. 1995 Author of Questioning Chemotherapy. Read this article http://www.whale.to/v/horwin1.html  it may open your eyes, if that is possible. That’s Cairn’s opinion, for whatever it’s worth.  Many others in the know would disagree.

Oh really. john "The majority of publications equate the effect of chemotherapy with (tumour) response, irrespective of survival.  Many oncologists take it for granted that response to therapy prolongs survival, an opinion which is based on a fallacy and which is not supported by clinical studies.  To date there is no clear evidence that the treated patients, as a whole, benefit from chemotherapy as to their quality of life."—Abel.1990. "For the majority of the cancers we examined, the actual improvements (in survival) have been small or have been overestimated by the published rates…It is difficult to find that there has been much progress…(For breast cancer), there is a slight improvement…(which) is considerably less than reported."—General Accounting Office "As a chemist trained to interpret data, it is incromprehensible to me that physicians can ignore the clear evidence that chemotherapy does much, much more harm than good."—Alan Nixon, Ph.D., Past President, American Chemical Society. http://www.whale.to/cancer/chemo.html

Response:

  he posted my exact words last night.  No lies in them as anyone could plainly see.

Well let us review the ENTIRE conversation to see if you told any lies: Jan says: I don’t disagree Rich. except *I* was that certain one who did if fact react to metal in the mouth, while many others never do.

what’s such a lie about that? she thinks she has a reaction to having mercury fillings. so what? why do you insist that she is lying about this? why, indeed are you so eager to discredit jan, richie? WHY, indeed, do you feel that it is necessary to keep going after jan AT ALL?? (given the fact that you are obviously so sure that her ideas and opinions are so far under the bar of science and all) c’mon richie….talk to me some more about acupuncture and noni juice!!! let’s forget jan’s amalgams and her "lies". let’s me and you get down and dirty about those other two unproven alternative modalities, shall we???? see, how societally pervasive do ya suppose a belief in mercury poisoning is compared to a belief in acupuncture??? and, more importantly, which is doing more harm and/or SCAMMING more people out of their hard earned money, eh richie?????? Above you state that my explanation is TOTALLY different of what you SAID. Now tell me how when I said that you said that within days of having your amalgams removed that you felt better than you had in two years is a total distortion of what you said. After all that is ALL that TDN was basing his comment to you on; my assertion of your statement. Not only was my statement about what you said not a *total distortion* but it was a VERBATIM account of what you said.

go smoke anothe maui wowie, richie. you’re too funny! you’re dwelling on some conversation that you had with jan **3 or 4 years ago.** any new readers here might not realize that. you’ve brought jan’s "i’ve felt better" comment up so many times now that i am starting to worry about you, hon. is it bothering you that much?? you did this to connie, as i recall, with some comment she made about an IQ test. gawd forbid you talk about something like how the field of psychiatry/psychology has been ripping people off. course, that wouldn’t be in your best intersest, would it? that would be sort of like andrew kingoff discussing acupuncture’s finer points and PROOFs. pun intended. s’like pulling teeth, i tellya. several of these guys are all over posters like jan and/or ilena…but ask them specific questions about their own chosen fields and what do you get???? redirection. Your lie is that what I presented that you said was a total distortion.

LOL The only distortion is the maladaptive and dysfunctional manner in which your mind works.

what’s so distortive about that, richie? be specific. c’mon, tell us exactly how jan’s mind works. isn’t that what you get paid for, after all? I agree with the individual who said that it is a good thing that you no longer care for children. Lord knows how much damage you did to these children with your incredibly impaired reality testing and paranoia.

i would trust my child with jan 5000 times before i would let you lay a hand on him, richie. for all of her faults, she seems genuine. you, otoh, have never exhibited that particular trait here at mha. — Someday we’ll look back on this moment and plow into a parked car. Evan Davis In Paris they simply stared when I spoke to them in French; I never did succeed in making those idiots understand their language. Mark Twain

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that would be the fair thing to do, rather than constantly calling him "BAR RAT," and denigrating him as a person. I have quit calling him names. Bullshit. You friggin liar. You called him "Quack Barrett" just today!!

Rich you are so angry you aren’t even reading correctly. We were talking about grasping at straws. Settle down. Jan

Response:

Rich on the war path again. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that would be the fair thing to do, rather than constantly calling him "BAR RAT," and denigrating him as a person. I have quit calling him names. Bullshit. You friggin liar. You called him "Quack Barrett" just today!! Rich you are so angry you aren’t even reading correctly. We were talking about grasping at straws. "Quack Barrett" is NOT Dr. Barrett’s name. So you are still calling him names. You may have stopped calling him "BAR RAT" but your statement did NOT say that you stopped calling him "BAR RAT". Your statement was that you stopped calling him "names". I do not expect you to understand the difference since it is clear that your mind is so open that your brains have fallen out. Better luck next life:-)) Aloha, Rich Life is grand!! Check the teeth!!! Jan Drew

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go figure. Why figure,,,,,,,,,,,,,when we have Quack Barrett’s,,,,,,,,,,,*in the know* Jan john Jan, here is yet another of your lies.   You claimed to have stopped calling Dr Barrett names and here you are calling him a quack. She will never admit she lied. neither will several other posters….ie andrew…or is it ilsa now? When I confronted Jan about the lie she claims that she said that she stopped calling him "BAR RAT" and that is what she meant when she said that she stopped calling him "names". I guess that means that Jan thinks that she could call Dr. Barrett "Idiot Barrett", "Imbecile Barrett", or "Quack Barrett" and retain honesty following her claim that she stopped calling him names. The truth is that Jan Drew is an unmitigated liar who continues to lie and lie and lie. gee, this is certainly worthy of taking one to task about: calling someone **who doesn’t even post here** names. or a poster’s supposed lying about ’sayign they’re gonna stop calling someone names." what grade are you in, anyway? rich, i don’t suppose the idea of someone lying about state laws or educational requirements in order to somehow bolster their credibility bothers you, does it? oh, how silly of me. of course it doesn’t!

Hmm. Jan also when confronted about belittling asked whether I thought that calling him "Quack Barrett" was belittling. Is Jan for real??? If someone called her good buddy Hulda, "Quack Hulda" you can be SURE that Jan would think that it was belittling. In fact people HAVE called Hulda a quack and Jan indeed HAS confronted the person about belittling her good buddy Hulda. i say belittle both hulda and barrett all you want. they don’t post here, and for the most part, don’t deserve the attention that is paid them in this forum. if, otoh, you are attempting to ‘educate and inform’ some particular reader or group, then the persistent use of belittling sarcasm and/or egotistical condescension is both misguided and inappropriate.

Yes. Give him enough rope. he posted my exact words last night.  No lies in them as anyone could plainly see. Then he lost his temper and posted two lies while having a hissy fit. He hung himself with his own rope. of coure, if you are just here to troll, then constant belittling and indiscriminate ad homs are the name of the game. you go, boy.

LOL. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Someday we’ll look back on this moment and plow into a parked car. Evan Davis In Paris they simply stared when I spoke to them in French; I never did succeed in making those idiots understand their language. Mark Twain

Response:

By 1969, Dr. Hardin Jones had already released a shocking report on this issue at the Science Writers Convention, sponsored by the American Cancer Society. Jones, a respected professor of medical physics from the University of California at Berkeley and an expert on statistics and the effects of radiation and drugs, concluded that "the common malignancies show a remarkably similar rate of demise, whether treated or untreated." <snip Like surgery, radiation therapy was grandfathered in without rigorous testing. Radiation is carcinogenic and mutagenic. In the few tests comparing radiation treatment against no treatment, according to Jones, "Most of the time, it makes not the slightest difference if the machine is turned on or not." Jones went even further, saying, "My studies have proved conclusively that untreated cancer victims actually live up to four times longer."

Yea, right, 4 times longer.  Let’s see those studies.  I don’t believe it. Bill Ross

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go figure. Why figure,,,,,,,,,,,,,when we have Quack Barrett’s,,,,,,,,,,,*in the know* Jan john Jan, here is yet another of your lies.   You claimed to have stopped calling Dr Barrett names and here you are calling him a quack. She will never admit she lied.

neither will several other posters….ie andrew…or is it ilsa now? When I confronted Jan about the lie she claims that she said that she stopped calling him "BAR RAT" and that is what she meant when she said that she stopped calling him "names". I guess that means that Jan thinks that she could call Dr. Barrett "Idiot Barrett", "Imbecile Barrett", or "Quack Barrett" and retain honesty following her claim that she stopped calling him names. The truth is that Jan Drew is an unmitigated liar who continues to lie and lie and lie.

gee, this is certainly worthy of taking one to task about: calling someone **who doesn’t even post here** names. or a poster’s supposed lying about ’sayign they’re gonna stop calling someone names." what grade are you in, anyway? rich, i don’t suppose the idea of someone lying about state laws or educational requirements in order to somehow bolster their credibility bothers you, does it? oh, how silly of me. of course it doesn’t! Jan also when confronted about belittling asked whether I thought that calling him "Quack Barrett" was belittling. Is Jan for real??? If someone called her good buddy Hulda, "Quack Hulda" you can be SURE that Jan would think that it was belittling. In fact people HAVE called Hulda a quack and Jan indeed HAS confronted the person about belittling her good buddy Hulda.

i say belittle both hulda and barrett all you want. they don’t post here, and for the most part, don’t deserve the attention that is paid them in this forum. if, otoh, you are attempting to ‘educate and inform’ some particular reader or group, then the persistent use of belittling sarcasm and/or egotistical condescension is both misguided and inappropriate. of coure, if you are just here to troll, then constant belittling and indiscriminate ad homs are the name of the game. you go, boy. — Someday we’ll look back on this moment and plow into a parked car. Evan Davis In Paris they simply stared when I spoke to them in French; I never did succeed in making those idiots understand their language. Mark Twain

Response:

Go figure. Why figure,,,,,,,,,,,,,when we have Quack Barrett’s,,,,,,,,,,,*in the know* Jan john

Jan, here is yet another of your lies.   You claimed to have stopped calling Dr Barrett names and here you are calling him a quack.  I wonder if that is libelous?

Response:

You are naive.  They know what works re chemo but dish it out anyway even if it doesn’t.  Read Moss book Questioning Chemo.  Adults trust the doctors as they don’t know anything re cancer or chemo.

And you are naive if you believe "They know what works re chemo…".   Fact is, they often (most of the time?) don’t know at all.  The statistics regarding adjuvant chemotherapy are very hard to decipher.  Experts such as Cairns see it one way, others view the data differently. "Two to 4% of cancers respond to chemotherapy..The bottom line is for a few kinds of cancer chemo is a life extending procedure—Hodgkin’s disease, Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia (ALL), Testicular cancer, and Choriocarcinoma."—-Ralph Moss, Ph.D. 1995 Author of Questioning Chemotherapy. Read this article http://www.whale.to/v/horwin1.html  it may open your eyes, if that is possible.

Ralph Moss is not the final or best authority on chemotherapy.  And in spite of his criticism, even Moss has maintained that chemo has a place in cancer treatment.  And chemo is not just effective in extending some lives.  It also relieves cancer symptoms that are causing pain or significant discomfort.  Even with the negative side effects, some cancer patients prefer chemo over the cancer symptoms they are suffering from. "The majority of publications equate the effect of chemotherapy with (tumour) response, irrespective of survival.  Many oncologists take it for granted that response to therapy prolongs survival, an opinion which is based on a fallacy and which is not supported by clinical studies.  To date there is no clear evidence that the treated patients, as a whole, benefit from chemotherapy as to their quality of life."—Abel.1990.

That’s Abel’s interpretation of the data.  Who is Abel, by the way? "For the majority of the cancers we examined, the actual improvements (in survival) have been small or have been overestimated by the published rates…It is difficult to find that there has been much progress…(For breast cancer), there is a slight improvement…(which) is considerably less than reported."—General Accounting Office

"Slight improvement" is better than *no improvement*.   We all wish improvement could be much faster. "As a chemist trained to interpret data, it is incromprehensible to me that physicians can ignore the clear evidence that chemotherapy does much, much more harm than good."—Alan Nixon, Ph.D., Past President, American Chemical Society. http://www.whale.to/cancer/chemo.html

Maybe Nixon is right.  I am not in a position to understand the data, and must rely on the "experts."  Most oncologists and other doctors seem to disagree with Nixon. I agree that chemotherapy has not been very successful in helping most cancer patients.  It needs to be looked at much closer, and cancer patients should probably learn all they can about their particular cancer (if they are capable of understanding it sufficiently), rather than trust that their oncologist is doing the best thing for them.  But it is very difficult for most patients to conclude what is best, because even the top notch experts have significant disagreements about chemotherapy use. Bill Ross

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -that would be the fair thing to do, rather than constantly calling him "BAR RAT," and denigrating him as a person. I have quit calling him names. Bullshit. You friggin liar. You called him "Quack Barrett" just today!! Rich you are so angry you aren’t even reading correctly. We were talking about grasping at straws. Settle down. Jan

Jan, you should start listening to Rich.  You do lie constantly and you do such a poor job of it.  One would hope that you would become more versed in it, considering all the practice you have had. You could be headed for a libel suit the way you have, in my opinion, defamed the good Dr Barrett.  Be very careful about whom you accuse of being evil and part of a conspiracy.  Perhaps Dr Barrett will feel the need to stoop to Hulda’s level and hire a Tim Bolen-esque character to harass and sue you.

Response:

John Cairns of Harvard published a study in Scientific American that showed chemotherapy drugs were of benefit to at most 5% of cancer patients they are given to, but are routinely given to 50% of patients! Even if Cairns is correct, and I don’t know that he is, I imagine the 5% who benefit are grateful for chemotherapy.  

Maybe, maybe not. People aren’t crazy about putting poison in their bodies and having their hair fall out. I know a person who wishes she had not had chemo. And how do we know which individuals who make up the 50% figure are going to be of the 5% that benefit?  If none are given chemo, than there would not be that alleged 5% that benefit.  Last I heard, nobody is forcing adults to take chemotherapy.

That’s correct. Some choose to go other places,,,,,,,,,,,like that perhaps be the only choice left? Could it be this is the plan? He also termed the chemotherapy used to treat malignancies too advanced for surgery (80% of cancers) as a "scientific wasteland". That’s Cairn’s opinion, for whatever it’s worth.  Many others in the know would disagree. Bill Ross

different opinion? That makes him *in the know* Or in the *establishment* Go figure.

Why figure,,,,,,,,,,,,,when we have Quack Barrett’s,,,,,,,,,,,*in the know* Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – john

Response:

Why figure,,,,,,,,,,,,,when we have Quack Barrett’s,,,,,,,,,,,*in the know* It is never right to belittle someone is it

What part do you find belittling? Jan you friggin hypocrite and liar?

I do believe you have lost your temper Rich. You are famous for using the word hypocrite. And true to form this always happens after we have a decent discussion and I say something about how nice it was. Do you realize this? If not go back and look. I guess it is OK for YOU to belittle

By calling Barrett a quack? Saying he is in the know? Who do you think Bill Ross was speaking of?  someone but not OK for others especially when others are belittling someone that you agree with.

How wrong you are. I came to Bill Ross’s defense when he was being treated wrong and it was on the Dr Clark list. I told both Tim Bolen and Hulda brother what I thought. I also wrote to Hulda and told her. Funny how you haven’t seeen the times when I have disagreed with *anyone* that I felt was wrong,,,,,,,,,regardless of which side of the camp. And be sure to go to confessional and admit all your lies.

Woops. I am not catholic, I don’t believe in confessing anything to a priest. That is God’s job. It’s also his to *judge* what lies are,,,,,,,,,,,,NOT YOURS.  You will be quite busy confessing all your blatant falsehoods.

You need to settle down Rich. You are making a fool of yourself. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aloha, Rich Life is grand!! Check the teeth!!! Jan Drew

Response:

John Cairns of Harvard published a study in Scientific American that showed chemotherapy drugs were of benefit to at most 5% of cancer patients they are given to, but are routinely given to 50% of patients!

Even if Cairns is correct, and I don’t know that he is, I imagine the 5% who benefit are grateful for chemotherapy.  And how do we know which individuals who make up the 50% figure are going to be of the 5% that benefit?  If none are given chemo, than there would not be that alleged 5% that benefit.  Last I heard, nobody is forcing adults to take chemotherapy. He also termed the chemotherapy used to treat malignancies too advanced for surgery (80% of cancers) as a "scientific wasteland".

That’s Cairn’s opinion, for whatever it’s worth.  Many others in the know would disagree. Bill Ross – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go figure. john

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By 1969, Dr. Hardin Jones had already released a shocking report on this issue at the Science Writers Convention, sponsored by the American Cancer Society. Jones, a respected professor of medical physics from the University of California at Berkeley and an expert on statistics and the effects of radiation and drugs, concluded that "the common malignancies show a remarkably similar rate of demise, whether treated or untreated." <snip Like surgery, radiation therapy was grandfathered in without rigorous testing. Radiation is carcinogenic and mutagenic. In the few tests comparing radiation treatment against no treatment, according to Jones, "Most of the time, it makes not the slightest difference if the machine is turned on or not." Jones went even further, saying, "My studies have proved conclusively that untreated cancer victims actually live up to four times longer." Yea, right, 4 times longer.  Let’s see those studies.  I don’t believe it. Bill Ross

John Cairns of Harvard published a study in Scientific American that showed chemotherapy drugs were of benefit to at most 5% of cancer patients they are given to, but are routinely given to 50% of patients!   He also termed the chemotherapy used to treat malignancies too advanced for surgery (80% of cancers) as a "scientific wasteland". Go figure. john

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea, right, 4 times longer.  Let’s see those studies.  I don’t believe it. Bill Ross Big surprise. It wasn’t written by *the media* who has claimed he would provide more studies, but when called on it, he took this part of his website down and told k&g that he shouldn’t even be questioned, or something to that effect. BTW, have you ever questioned him? Yes I have, Jan.  It’s been easy to do.  I just send him an email at his easy to find email address on his website.  He has been good about answering my well-intentioned questions.

And what might your questions be? You seem to agree with most everything he says. Maybe you should ask him why he wastes so much time and money of the tax payers when his lawyers can’t even file paper appropriately or ever get them in the correct county??  You could try questioning him as well, Yes, indeed I have. His answer was if you want to be quacked then be quacked. His arroganceIi can do without. K&g also questioned him, he was rude.  and perhaps that would be the fair thing to do, rather than constantly calling him "BAR RAT," and denigrating him as a person.

I have quit calling him names. As a person I frankly don’t think he gives a flying fig about peoples health. He is totally untruthful by claiming to be ye ole great protected but never mentions the greatest death toll  caused by none other than conv. medicine. His is so wrapped up in the evils of *organized* medicine that I have not one speck of respect for him.  Is it possible I could question Hulda Clark, somehow?  Does she have email, or does she answer questions from the public in another way?      –Bill Ross

Not that I know of. She wouldn’t waste her time with you, it is non productive. As a matter of fact I did indeed waste many hours with you. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Jan Drew

Response:

Yea, right, 4 times longer.  Let’s see those studies.  I don’t believe it. Bill Ross Big surprise. It wasn’t written by *the media* who has claimed he would provide more studies, but when called on it, he took this part of his website down and told k&g that he shouldn’t even be questioned, or something to that effect. BTW, have you ever questioned him?

Yes I have, Jan.  It’s been easy to do.  I just send him an email at his easy to find email address on his website.  He has been good about answering my well-intentioned questions.  You could try questioning him as well, and perhaps that would be the fair thing to do, rather than constantly calling him "BAR RAT," and denigrating him as a person.  Is it possible I could question Hulda Clark, somehow?  Does she have email, or does she answer questions from the public in another way?      –Bill Ross

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By 1969, Dr. Hardin Jones had already released a shocking report on this issue at the Science Writers Convention, sponsored by the American Cancer Society. Jones, a respected professor of medical physics from the University of California at Berkeley and an expert on statistics and the effects of radiation and drugs, concluded that "the common malignancies show a remarkably similar rate of demise, whether treated or untreated." <snip Like surgery, radiation therapy was grandfathered in without rigorous testing. Radiation is carcinogenic and mutagenic. In the few tests comparing radiation treatment against no treatment, according to Jones, "Most of the time, it makes not the slightest difference if the machine is turned on or not." Jones went even further, saying, "My studies have proved conclusively that untreated cancer victims actually live up to four times longer." Yea, right, 4 times longer.  Let’s see those studies.  I don’t believe it. Bill Ross

Big surprise. It wasn’t written by *the media* who has claimed he would provide more studies, but when called on it, he took this part of his website down and told k&g that he shouldn’t even be questioned, or something to that effect. BTW, have you ever questioned him? Jan

Response:

thanks Jan for posting this … the HealthFrauds have gotten away with this far too long

**During Hoxsey’s era, surgery and radiation were primitive and excessive. Both **were solely local treatments, reflecting the profession’s belief that cancer **was a local disease. As such they could address just a quarter of all cases, **claiming to cure only about a quarter of those. With the advent of toxic **chemotherapy drugs in the 1950s, organized medicine at last acknowledged cancer **as a systemic disease, which Hoxsey and the other "unorthodox" practitioners **had been asserting throughout. ** ** **Clearly, conventional cancer treatments have an important place in medicine and **save lives. But since the 1950s, evidence has steadily accumulated that **surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy are far less effective than the public is **being led to believe. Investigative journalist Daniel Greenberg, writing in the **Columbia Journalism Review in 1975, produced the first widely reported expos

Question:

I was looking around online to see if it’s possible to take review courses and I wondered if anyone knows of any or has had good luck using any. I found one at www.tvaccounting.com that looks pretty comprehensive. Is anyone familiar with it? Before you buy.

Response:

Just my advice… they worked for me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking around online to see if it’s possible to take review courses and I wondered if anyone knows of any or has had good luck using any. I found one at www.tvaccounting.com that looks pretty comprehensive. Is anyone familiar with it? Before you buy.

Response:

How long have those been around? The TVAccounting one struck me as seeming really thorough, but not too long. Are those other courses the same kind of approach? Just my advice… they worked for me.

I was looking around online to see if it’s possible to take review courses and I wondered if anyone knows of any or has had good luck using any. I found one at www.tvaccounting.com that looks pretty comprehensive. Is anyone familiar with it? Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

Becker started out as a solo instructor back in the 50’s, and has probably worked every disclosed CPA exam question in the last forty years. Becker’s notes are presented at a very detailed level.   Kaplan came out of the standardized testing world, MCAT, LSAT, etc., and has good concept reviews for each subject.  I did the Becker CD-ROM course at home, and used the Kaplan FARE book as a cross-reference for subject areas that I needed help with.  I think Kaplan has a course on-line if you want to go with that, but I liked the CD-rom course, because it’s probably richer in content.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long have those been around? The TVAccounting one struck me as seeming really thorough, but not too long. Are those other courses the same kind of approach? Just my advice… they worked for me. I was looking around online to see if it’s possible to take review courses and I wondered if anyone knows of any or has had good luck using any. I found one at www.tvaccounting.com that looks pretty comprehensive. Is anyone familiar with it? Before you buy. Before you buy.

Response:

The programs such as Becker and Kaplan that have been around a while have been proven to help people who are seeking that type of education.  The internet is capable of making anyone a publisher, and without commenting directly on the program you are advocating, there are a lot of people who simply compile a "not too long" list of accounting questions (or for other professions) and attempt to pass them off as "education". If you have to ask "whether it’s possible to take review courses" or if you talk about "good luck" instead of thorough study, then perhaps you should ask for competent advice rather than whether a particular course you have might have found randomly on through a search engine is appropriate to your studies. In my opinion, if you can’t bother yourself to talk with CPA’s to find out how to get into the industry, then the "almostcpa" in your e-mail address will describe the way you will be for a long time.  Are you familiar with the other requirements for becoming a CPA? — Bryan Johnson, EA (and accounting student) Pioneer Tax & Accounting Service     Portland, OR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long have those been around? The TVAccounting one struck me as seeming really thorough, but not too long. Are those other courses the same kind of approach? I was looking around online to see if it’s possible to take review courses and I wondered if anyone knows of any or has had good luck using any. I found one at www.tvaccounting.com that looks pretty comprehensive. Is anyone familiar with it?

Response:

Question:

 at the minimum they   need to educate their staff on "good practice" and make   sure their systems make it clear to the user when Internet   accesses are happening. — Roger Barnett

This is a lot easier said than done.  Two recent additions to my collection of programs (QB 2000 & McAfee ActiveShield) have what I rather cynically refer to as an "ET call home" provision.  I’m not at all comfortable with this trend, but I’m not sure as to what I can / should do about it.  I suppose I could unplug the phone cord when I’m not online, however that only works with a dial up, and the coming thing appears to be continual access. Thoughts? — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

Warning: There’s a Unix/Linux version of this one out there as well. I got hit with it today and I have no idea how to go about recovering my system. Here it is: This is the Unix/Linux version of "I Love You". It works on the honor system. If you receive this mail, you should delete a bunch of GIFs, MP3s, and binaries from your home directory, then send a copy of this e-mail to everyone you know. Thanks for your cooperation, Malicious Coder

If you are more technical, try this one — you will need to have access to root . . . this one works on the honor system… 1. cd to /usr/bin 2. type ls -l and pick 3 or 4 files at random 3. type rm -f filename for each of the chosen files 4. forward this email to 50 friends also running linux.

Response:

I know this thread is poking fun at various PC issues, but it reminded me of something I had been meaning to ask. If you received the ILOVEYOU virus in another email package, such as Eudora, wouldn’t the virus still delete the multimedia files on your system without replicating itself? Mike.

Response:

I know this thread is poking fun at various PC issues, but it reminded me of something I had been meaning to ask. If you received the ILOVEYOU virus in another email package, such as Eudora, wouldn’t the virus still delete the multimedia files on your system without replicating itself? Mike.

I don’t know, but I suspect that it would. I use Eudora Pro for email, Netscape for browsing, and McAfee Active Shield for a bug screen.  I recently checked all our computers to be sure that Windows Scripting Host was turned off (it is in Windows, not Explorer – as I had previously thought) I DO NOT open attachments I am not sure of. I try to use reasonable precautions including the avoidance of  programs that make it easy for bugs to propagate.  So far I have not had a serious virus.  If I did get one, the chance of passing it on to others is pretty remote (I think). I am a lot more comfortable with programs that are not too tightly integrated – even if the overall scheme lacks a bit of "functionality". — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

If you received the ILOVEYOU virus in another email package, such as Eudora, wouldn’t the virus still delete the multimedia files on your system without replicating itself?

Only if you launched it, the program started up the *.vbs script and the script didn’t rely on Outlook being running.  But the damage would be a bit more contained, since the virus would not be able to replicate itself by invading the address book.

Response:

If you received the ILOVEYOU virus in another email package, such as Eudora, wouldn’t the virus still delete the multimedia files on your system without replicating itself? Only if you launched it, the program started up the *.vbs script and the script didn’t rely on Outlook being running.  But the damage would be a bit more contained, since the virus would not be able to replicate itself by invading the address book.

Ed, Do you know if it is possible to remove outlook without also removing MS Internet Explorer. I normally use Netscape, however I use some software (QB 2000 & MCAT) that insist on I.E.. I’m admittedly a bit paranoid about this, but I am fearful that someone will figure out a way to get these "high functionality" programs to self launch and do God only knows what while I’m totally unaware of it. Thanks — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

You are confusing Outlook and Outlook Express. Outlook is part of MS Office.  In addition to email, it includes contact management and calendar functions. Outlook Express is the email and news client that is bundled with Internet Explorer.  It is also the news client that is called by Outlook, which does not have its own news capabilities. Little wonder that you (and many others) find this confusing. Anyway, "yes", you can use IE without using either OL or OE. With IE open, click Tools, Internet Options, Programs to specify which mail and news software you wish to use.  (This doesn’t actually remove any software, but should prevent the unwanted programs from opening unintended.)  Outlook can be removed through the MS Office Set-Up.  Outlook Express can be removed through the Control Panel, Add/Remove Programs.

Do you know if it is possible to remove outlook without also

removing MS Internet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Explorer.

Response:

I use Eudora Pro for email

I love Eudora Pro and if I had really understood what I was getting into with OutLook 98 I would not have changed from Eudora Pro. Be sure to keep yourself up to date on Eudora security patches. One of the things hackers love about Eudora is that it keeps the attachemnts as separate files in your attachment directory. They can send you any damned thing they want, Back Orifice, NetBUs or whatver, and it will certainly come into your inbox and be stored on your disk. They can give it any seductive name, for example, "Dear CPA here is a list of all CPE" and a file "CPEList.doc" which could even behave as a normal word doc. If you don’t delete the attachment file, and they can figure out a way to get into your machine (usually easy) *they* can execute the file they sent you even if *you* don’t, * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use Eudora Pro for email I love Eudora Pro and if I had really understood what I was getting into with OutLook 98 I would not have changed from Eudora Pro. Be sure to keep yourself up to date on Eudora security patches. One of the things hackers love about Eudora is that it keeps the attachemnts as separate files in your attachment directory. They can send you any damned thing they want, Back Orifice, NetBUs or whatver, and it will certainly come into your inbox and be stored on your disk. They can give it any seductive name, for example, "Dear CPA here is a list of all CPE" and a file "CPEList.doc" which could even behave as a normal word doc. If you don’t delete the attachment file, and they can figure out a way to get into your machine (usually easy) *they* can execute the file they sent you even if *you* don’t,

Todd, Thanks for the heads up. If I am understanding this correctly, I need to delete unwanted attachments separately from the unwanted email to which they are attached. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are confusing Outlook and Outlook Express. Outlook is part of MS Office.  In addition to email, it includes contact management and calendar functions. Outlook Express is the email and news client that is bundled with Internet Explorer.  It is also the news client that is called by Outlook, which does not have its own news capabilities. Little wonder that you (and many others) find this confusing. Anyway, "yes", you can use IE without using either OL or OE. With IE open, click Tools, Internet Options, Programs to specify which mail and news software you wish to use.  (This doesn’t actually remove any software, but should prevent the unwanted programs from opening unintended.)  Outlook can be removed through the MS Office Set-Up.  Outlook Express can be removed through the Control Panel, Add/Remove Programs.

Vernon, Thanks. I just reset IE to use Eudora for email and tested same.  It seems to work as desired. I was not able to reset the newsreader function (to Netscape – Eudora doesn’t read news), however I’ve never heard of anyone getting a virus through a newsgroup. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

If I am understanding this correctly, I need to delete unwanted attachments separately from the unwanted email to which they are attached.

I believe that is right.  I do know that Eudora has that "helpful" habit of saving its attachments automatically and requiring separate housekeeping to remove them. But, to be honest, the biggest advantage of Eudora is the fact that it isn’t the most used program.  So that means that even if there was a glaring security hole, only someone specifically interested in compromising your system would be interested.  The current set of worms (Melissa and I Love You) are set to create a huge overall effect rather than attack a single machine.

Response:

I am a lot more comfortable with programs that are not too tightly integrated – even if the overall scheme lacks a bit of "functionality".

While that’s true, it’s also true that merely using programs that aren’t the "most used" provides protection from the viruses that are being written in macro/scripting languages–because authors of those bugs are naturally drawn to the biggest audience.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I am understanding this correctly, I need to delete unwanted attachments separately from the unwanted email to which they are attached. I believe that is right.  I do know that Eudora has that "helpful" habit of saving its attachments automatically and requiring separate housekeeping to remove them. But, to be honest, the biggest advantage of Eudora is the fact that it isn’t the most used program.  So that means that even if there was a glaring security hole, only someone specifically interested in compromising your system would be interested.  The current set of worms (Melissa and I Love You) are set to create a huge overall effect rather than attack a single machine.

I just got a security alert from Eudora.  One of their suggestions was to set up a customized attachment folder, which I just did. They also recommended updating their "warning script" which I just did also. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

Ha, how shallow to assume I am angry for my own sake and have done something wrong. Nope.  I was a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate) who protected the children removed from homes for abuse. Nothing in my past, just reality I witnessed in the courts, Child Services and Legal teams and their attitudes and actions. Also, I know a mother who smokes pot, we brought the policeman to our house and he talked to the child, recognized the descriptions he gave and did nothing other than going to her house and chastising her.  I guess it’s okay to smoke and drive. Uh huh, people do care even when they have nothing personal at stake.  Sorry you didn’t consider that option. Laws are laws.  I have my priorities and I have my time limits.  I was just stating the laws that are important to me.  That’s all. c. Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Also, speaking of laws.  Let me know when we will pass laws to protect children instead of treating them as property and trying to reunite them with worthless parents.  This is higher on my list than monetary and computer related issues. c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923 <snip Rather a non-sequitar isn’t it? You wouldn’t happen to be a mother who had her children taken from her and given to the father would you?  Too many times there is more to these stories than one wants to admit to. — Steve Thompson OSP LLC 330/335-9907 office 330/334-2097 fax Remove "_" in email address to contact me — anti-spam measures in use

Response:

Also, speaking of laws.  Let me know when we will pass laws to protect children instead of treating them as property and trying to reunite them with worthless parents.  This is higher on my list than monetary and computer related issues. c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923

<snip Rather a non-sequitar isn’t it? You wouldn’t happen to be a mother who had her children taken from her and given to the father would you?  Too many times there is more to these stories than one wants to admit to. — Steve Thompson OSP LLC 330/335-9907 office 330/334-2097 fax Remove "_" in email address to contact me — anti-spam measures in use

Response:

One of the problems is that the underlying Internet technology is inherently insecure – remember that its basic design objective was to be resilient against damage to parts of the network. One consequence of this is that there is no control over the path taken by a message (or part of a message) to get from source to destination. IMO the problem is that business latched onto what looked like a free resource, i.e. the Internet infrastructure that then comprised mostly academic and research resources, and has subsequently been unwilling to invest in establishing and then paying for a commercial alternative (which I think is what Todd really wants – a parallel Internet with inherent support for the rules of doing business, such as no anonymity). Of course, if companies believe in the effectiveness of the Internet for advertising to individuals then they will insist on a single infrastructure, in which case IMO they have little comeback when the same infrastructure fails to protect them. With regard to the ILY trojan/worm, I see two problems: – any email reader which executes code in attachments   (as opposed to reading data from attachments, which can    still be dodgy but is probably reasonable with suitable    precautions) is deliberately broken;  claiming that it is   a configurable option is no excuse at all. – companies who think they can use the Internet as an   invisible extension to their office systems are misled   (often by others who know better); at the minimum they   need to educate their staff on "good practice" and make   sure their systems make it clear to the user when Internet   accesses are happening. — Roger Barnett

Response:

Unfortunately the Internet (which is world wide) cannot be regulated within national boundaries. The Australian Government has passed laws to outlaw pornography on the net, but all they have done is to drive the operators off shore.

Those are all good points. We certainly need to be able to implement some form of protection against criminal attacks on the net.  I would be interested to hear if you have some ideas on how this might be achieved.

I posted them.  The principle thrust is to stop treating the internet like citizens band radio — hell this is even worse!  Any dumb ass can setup a transmitter with unlimited speed, and unlimited bandwidth connection to the internet and spew out unlimited volumes of spam, port scans, viruses and hacker attacks and say, "Oh gee, I’m sorry, we don’t know where those packets came from!" Of course the "internet community" i.e. big infrastructure operators, actually DO have working arrangements in this case and the offending parties are subject to being blocked if they offend in certain ways.  This only proves the point that the industry is CAPABLE of policing itself, but doesn’t want to spend the money other than to the extent necessary to optimize its OWN profit.  Do you understand what I’m saying?  This is a classic tragedy of the commons, which calls for legislative remedy. Not many will agree with my ideas since after all, they are not fun, and are all business.  But the current lack of regulation makes it impossible for small business to get things we need very badly, in terms of payment and commerce capabilities, secure communications, non-repudiation, and authentication.   We are entitled to a reasonable degree of protection from criminal activity on the internet, and if the present profit-making operators of the routers and infrastructure don’t see fit to improve the situation, then the proper avenue for redress is thru our elected representatives, who are always eager to jump in and take over problems like this. There are many, many instances historically, of industries that ultimately failed to regulate themselves and are now being regulated very nicely by state and national laws.  So, it will not be the end of western civilization if the internet becomes regulated.   Todd * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

Haha.  :)  It’s not like anyone’s life is at risk.  And if you’re going to argue the old stalker stuff, if they are not bright enough or old enough to prevent their own harm, stay off. People want children to have net nannies and such.  I say, "Train your children."  Talk with them.  Understand what they are doing, who they are communicating with, at school, in the neighborhood, on the phone, on the net.  All is the same, only the method differs.  I know one woman who won’t allow her children to use the internet because she doesn’t understand it. Smart woman.  Risks outweigh the benefits in her mind and she is taking right action.  She will be taking an internet class this summer. Responsible. Property is property.  It is illegal to damage it.  If I knew of someone harming someone or trying to, I’d report it if there was a place, otherwise, whatever. I’m not so enamored with the police anyway as when I have tried to report things – speeding cars, angry drivers, child abuse, the red tape to get through or the lack of caring is enough to frustrate anyone. So far, I’ve not taken the law into my own hands, but it is darn tempting at times.   And all I want to do is enforce it!  But I can’t.  I have to obey it, watch others flaunt it, have no recourse and have people talking about making more useless laws.  Let’s get the ones we have right first.  Let’s get our priorities straight.  People, not products.  :) HA!  I can be a liberal AND a conservative at the same, exact time!   Help people, but keep government out of it!  :) c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Amen Cindy.  I have a real problem with people who see government intervention as the solution to everything.  They are all to willing to trade my freedom for what they perceive to be their sense of security even if it’s false.  The first question they ask is, what’s the government going to do to protect us.  The answer is, it can do nothing even though there are plenty of bureaucrats who are all too willing to take away everyone’s freedom.  The truth is the government can’t even protect itself let alone anyone else.  Thousands of government PC’s fell victim to the virus.  I agree, if the internet is too risky for you then stay the hell off. I have to strongly disagree with you here.  I am licensed as a ham operator and the main reason I accept the FCC regulating me is the "limited" bandwidth, so that it must be allocated or have chaos. The internet does not have a "real" limit, only a manufactured one.  In fact, there really aren’t limits as you can choose what you go look at, what newsgroups send things to you and in general what part of the ‘bandwidth’ you interact with. Criminals can just as easy broadcast illegally over the air waves, but it is extremely expensive and not much payback. REGULATION IS NOT THE ANSWER. Despite any regulation, it is still easy, cheap and has a high return (to ego or money). I obey streetlights because I want everyone else to.  If I didn’t care, NOTHING stops me from barreling down the street anywhere I want, until I crash or get arrested.  Hmm, then they take my license away.  I can drive without a license. My point is, that regulation puts burden on those that enforce it without really detracting from those who want to ignore it. Most of what people are doing now is illegal.  If you disrupt a business, it’s illegal.  If you share porn, it’s illegal. I can agree that countries should work towards supporting each other laws, but I love the internet being open as possible. You are not entitled to have someone else protect you on a medium that you have the option of not interacting with.  If you don’t like the internet’s many, many benefits, go away.     I don’t want you to go away, but I want you to choose, not have me regulated for your comfort. And by the way, the internet is NOT just for business.  Although that is 80% of my use, I love reading other people’s philosophies, learning about other cultures and geography and shopping for an RV, right now.  :) I’ll accept the risks and problems to support freedom any day!  :) Take care,  c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923 Unfortunately the Internet (which is world wide) cannot be regulated within national boundaries. The Australian Government has passed laws to outlaw pornography on the net, but all they have done is to drive the operators off shore. Those are all good points. We certainly need to be able to implement some form of protection against criminal attacks on the net.  I would be interested to hear if you have some ideas on how this might be achieved. I posted them.  The principle thrust is to stop treating the internet like citizens band radio — hell this is even worse!  Any dumb ass can setup a transmitter with unlimited speed, and unlimited bandwidth connection to the internet and spew out unlimited volumes of spam, port scans, viruses and hacker attacks and say, "Oh gee, I’m sorry, we don’t know where those packets came from!" Of course the "internet community" i.e. big infrastructure operators, actually DO have working arrangements in this case and the offending parties are subject to being blocked if they offend in certain ways. This only proves the point that the industry is CAPABLE of policing itself, but doesn’t want to spend the money other than to the extent necessary to optimize its OWN profit.  Do you understand what I’m saying?  This is a classic tragedy of the commons, which calls for legislative remedy. Not many will agree with my ideas since after all, they are not fun, and are all business.  But the current lack of regulation makes it impossible for small business to get things we need very badly, in terms of payment and commerce capabilities, secure communications, non-repudiation, and authentication. We are entitled to a reasonable degree of protection from criminal activity on the internet, and if the present profit-making operators of the routers and infrastructure don’t see fit to improve the situation, then the proper avenue for redress is thru our elected representatives, who are always eager to jump in and take over problems like this. There are many, many instances historically, of industries that ultimately failed to regulate themselves and are now being regulated very nicely by state and national laws.  So, it will not be the end of western civilization if the internet becomes regulated. Todd * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

Also, speaking of laws.  Let me know when we will pass laws to protect children instead of treating them as property and trying to reunite them with worthless parents.  This is higher on my list than monetary and computer related issues. c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to strongly disagree with you here.  I am licensed as a ham operator and the main reason I accept the FCC regulating me is the "limited" bandwidth, so that it must be allocated or have chaos. Hi Cindy, I was a ham for a number of years, WA7DGZ… expired now, though. The internet does not have a "real" limit, only a manufactured one.  In fact, there really aren’t limits as you can choose what you go look at, what newsgroups send things to you and in general what part of the ‘bandwidth’ you interact with. The question isn’t whether the network’s limits are real.  There can be no doubt, that misbehaving citizens on the network cause damage to the ability of other peoples’ servers, data and connectivity. Criminals can just as easy broadcast illegally over the air waves, but it is extremely expensive and not much payback. REGULATION IS NOT THE ANSWER. You still haven’t made any coherent argument as to the reasons for your position. Despite any regulation, it is still easy, cheap and has a high return (to ego or money). I obey streetlights because I want everyone else to.  If I didn’t care, NOTHING stops me from barreling down the street anywhere I want, until I crash or get arrested.  Hmm, then they take my license away.  I can drive without a license. I agree that effective mechanisms making crime impossible are preferred over regulations that end with the result "… and then you go to jail". Anything that requires human monitoring and enforcement, or after-the-fact remedy is an inferior solution.  Here are the choices  1. components that make it mechanically difficult or impossible to spoof,     hack, intrude, etc. such as IPV6, 1024 bit encryption, smartcards,     biological authentication  2. components or practices that make it impossible to commit crimes without     being recorded or detected, such as logging and monitoring systems, but     which are easy for clerks of low intelligence to trace the individual an     prosecute, and which have high percentage of prosecution e.g. the IRS’     reporting of income at source, stuff like that.  3. components that make it impossible to get away with crimes without leaving     some kind of evidence but which require expensive investigation an evidence     gathering, and can only be enforced on small percentage of violations. So we are in agreement, number one is the preferred form of regulation? My point is, that regulation puts burden on those that enforce it without really detracting from those who want to ignore it. I agree that any regulations should actually be effective enough at some particular objective that they would unquestionably yield net economic gain to the internet community at large.  If such regulations were proposed, and gains could be demonstrated, would you then support them? Most of what people are doing now is illegal.  If you disrupt a business, it’s illegal.  If you share porn, it’s illegal. I can agree that countries should work towards supporting each other laws, but I love the internet being open as possible. Porn is legal.  Theft, child abuse, etc are illegal and the internet community should pull their heads out of their irresponsible asses and help enforce the laws, instead of protecting criminals in their ranks. You are not entitled to have someone else protect you on a medium that you have the option of not interacting with.  If you don’t like the internet’s many, many benefits, go away.     I don’t want you to go away, but I want you to choose, not have me regulated for your comfort. And by the way, the internet is NOT just for business.  Although that is 80% of my use, I love reading other people’s philosophies, learning about other cultures and geography and shopping for an RV, right now.  :) I’ll accept the risks and problems to support freedom any day!  :) Thanks for your post.  I hope that you will also support the freedoms that are provided by a lawful society.  Most of the people who argue the loudest for unregulated internet actually want the benefits of a lawful society — but want to hold in reserve, their ability to break the law when it suits them.   Now look– I am a radical, I am a Vietnam era protester and have been a freedom fighter my whole life.  But if you don’t want to obey the law, get involved in the democratic process and speak out to protect your rights and your interests. It is insane for a civilized society to put laws on the books and then allow them to be broken, and refuse to enforce them, on the internet.  That is just stupid. Todd BOyle CPA

Response:

Amen Cindy.  I have a real problem with people who see government intervention as the solution to everything.  They are all to willing to trade my freedom for what they perceive to be their sense of security even if it’s false.  The first question they ask is, what’s the government going to do to protect us.  The answer is, it can do nothing even though there are plenty of bureaucrats who are all too willing to take away everyone’s freedom.  The truth is the government can’t even protect itself let alone anyone else.  Thousands of government PC’s fell victim to the virus.  I agree, if the internet is too risky for you then stay the hell off. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to strongly disagree with you here.  I am licensed as a ham operator and the main reason I accept the FCC regulating me is the "limited" bandwidth, so that it must be allocated or have chaos. The internet does not have a "real" limit, only a manufactured one.  In fact, there really aren’t limits as you can choose what you go look at, what newsgroups send things to you and in general what part of the ‘bandwidth’ you interact with. Criminals can just as easy broadcast illegally over the air waves, but it is extremely expensive and not much payback. REGULATION IS NOT THE ANSWER. Despite any regulation, it is still easy, cheap and has a high return (to ego or money). I obey streetlights because I want everyone else to.  If I didn’t care, NOTHING stops me from barreling down the street anywhere I want, until I crash or get arrested.  Hmm, then they take my license away.  I can drive without a license. My point is, that regulation puts burden on those that enforce it without really detracting from those who want to ignore it. Most of what people are doing now is illegal.  If you disrupt a business, it’s illegal.  If you share porn, it’s illegal. I can agree that countries should work towards supporting each other laws, but I love the internet being open as possible. You are not entitled to have someone else protect you on a medium that you have the option of not interacting with.  If you don’t like the internet’s many, many benefits, go away.     I don’t want you to go away, but I want you to choose, not have me regulated for your comfort. And by the way, the internet is NOT just for business.  Although that is 80% of my use, I love reading other people’s philosophies, learning about other cultures and geography and shopping for an RV, right now.  :) I’ll accept the risks and problems to support freedom any day!  :) Take care,  c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923 Unfortunately the Internet (which is world wide) cannot be regulated within national boundaries. The Australian Government has passed laws to outlaw pornography on the net, but all they have done is to drive the operators off shore. Those are all good points. We certainly need to be able to implement some form of protection against criminal attacks on the net.  I would be interested to hear if you have some ideas on how this might be achieved. I posted them.  The principle thrust is to stop treating the internet like citizens band radio — hell this is even worse!  Any dumb ass can setup a transmitter with unlimited speed, and unlimited bandwidth connection to the internet and spew out unlimited volumes of spam, port scans, viruses and hacker attacks and say, "Oh gee, I’m sorry, we don’t know where those packets came from!" Of course the "internet community" i.e. big infrastructure operators, actually DO have working arrangements in this case and the offending parties are subject to being blocked if they offend in certain ways.  This only proves the point that the industry is CAPABLE of policing itself, but doesn’t want to spend the money other than to the extent necessary to optimize its OWN profit.  Do you understand what I’m saying?  This is a classic tragedy of the commons, which calls for legislative remedy. Not many will agree with my ideas since after all, they are not fun, and are all business.  But the current lack of regulation makes it impossible for small business to get things we need very badly, in terms of payment and commerce capabilities, secure communications, non-repudiation, and authentication. We are entitled to a reasonable degree of protection from criminal activity on the internet, and if the present profit-making operators of the routers and infrastructure don’t see fit to improve the situation, then the proper avenue for redress is thru our elected representatives, who are always eager to jump in and take over problems like this. There are many, many instances historically, of industries that ultimately failed to regulate themselves and are now being regulated very nicely by state and national laws.  So, it will not be the end of western civilization if the internet becomes regulated. Todd * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

I have to strongly disagree with you here.  I am licensed as a ham operator and the main reason I accept the FCC regulating me is the "limited" bandwidth, so that it must be allocated or have chaos. Hi Cindy, I was a ham for a number of years, WA7DGZ… expired now, though.

Cool.  :) The internet does not have a "real" limit, only a manufactured one.  In fact, there really aren’t limits as you can choose what you go look at, what newsgroups send things to you and in general what part of the ‘bandwidth’ you interact with. The question isn’t whether the network’s limits are real.  There can be no doubt, that misbehaving citizens on the network cause damage to the ability of other peoples’ servers, data and connectivity.

Damage, yes. But causing damage is already against the law.  My point is that people shouldn’t regulate one medium differently than other mediums. In example, making laws agains unsolicited emails or faxes, but not against unsolicited phone calls, paper mail or knocks on the door. I support laws against activites, but not against the method of the activity. Criminals can just as easy broadcast illegally over the air waves, but it is extremely expensive and not much payback. REGULATION IS NOT THE ANSWER. You still haven’t made any coherent argument as to the reasons for your position.

See above and below.  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Despite any regulation, it is still easy, cheap and has a high return (to ego or money). I obey streetlights because I want everyone else to.  If I didn’t care, NOTHING stops me from barreling down the street anywhere I want, until I crash or get arrested.  Hmm, then they take my license away.  I can drive without a license. I agree that effective mechanisms making crime impossible are preferred over regulations that end with the result "… and then you go to jail". Anything that requires human monitoring and enforcement, or after-the-fact remedy is an inferior solution.  Here are the choices  1. components that make it mechanically difficult or impossible to spoof,     hack, intrude, etc. such as IPV6, 1024 bit encryption, smartcards,     biological authentication

Okay, where do you propose placing these and who pays?  2. components or practices that make it impossible to commit crimes without     being recorded or detected, such as logging and monitoring systems, but     which are easy for clerks of low intelligence to trace the individual an     prosecute, and which have high percentage of prosecution e.g. the IRS’     reporting of income at source, stuff like that.

So, what about the protection of this tracing for people who don’t want to be monitored and while are not doing anything wrong, could have trouble with people twisting things.  ie  I read anything and everything.  I am a philosopher and curious about other people and why they do what they do. Because I go to a site, does not mean I will do anything. Good example – if I read about the bomb that went off in Oklahoma City and said, hmmm,  I wonder how easy it was for them to make that bomb and then went to a site that descibed that and other activities, even if the things they describe are illegal, my looking at or reading about them is not and should not be illegal or tracked.  I like to understand and what I do in my head is my business.  If I then do something illegal, the act should be punished, but not the potential for the act. I don’t want people tracking my income.  It’s my business and no one else’s. I gladly pay taxes, although SIDE NOTE I don’t see why we can’t electronically register what it should be spent on – ie direct representation.  3. components that make it impossible to get away with crimes without leaving     some kind of evidence but which require expensive investigation an evidence     gathering, and can only be enforced on small percentage of violations.

Like what? So we are in agreement, number one is the preferred form of regulation?

Not really.  Who pays?  I’d rather say put in place whatever you want to pay for.  Protect your information in whatever way you feel safe.  My info is important, but not enough to pay for protection.  I’ll risk the loss and restore via backups.  I’ll risk someone stealing my info and publishing it or whatever, because there’s nothing that would hurt me enough to pay for protecting it. It’s all a matter of perspective, but I feel that people who have something to protect want us that don’t to pay for them.  Nope!  Pay for your own protection.  Free for all.  Don’t lock people out because they can’t afford to pay for your protection. My point is, that regulation puts burden on those that enforce it without really detracting from those who want to ignore it. I agree that any regulations should actually be effective enough at some particular objective that they would unquestionably yield net economic gain to the internet community at large.  If such regulations were proposed, and gains could be demonstrated, would you then support

them? See above comments.  I feel that the answer would be no.  How would it benefit ME and others like me?  It benefits big business and big govt.  They can pay for it themselves.  I don’t want to pay for it. Give me the particular objective and "net" economic gain, although I have to ask to whom is the gain given to. I tend to be against any regulation because of cost and incompetence. Anything can be weasled around.  Why waste money trying to fix a world wide issue.  It would be a lot harder for a hacker to deal with a million different security systems than one universal one which would then become a prime target for admiration of who could break in and then share the info with other hackers. Give me specifics and I’ll give you my opinions on pros and cons, but until then, no to regulation as a general principle.  :) Most of what people are doing now is illegal.  If you disrupt a business, it’s illegal.  If you share porn, it’s illegal. I can agree that countries should work towards supporting each other laws, but I love the internet being open as possible. Porn is legal.  Theft, child abuse, etc are illegal and the internet community should pull their heads out of their irresponsible asses and help enforce the laws, instead of protecting criminals in their ranks.

How are they protecting criminals in their ranks? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are not entitled to have someone else protect you on a medium that you have the option of not interacting with.  If you don’t like the internet’s many, many benefits, go away.     I don’t want you to go away, but I want you to choose, not have me regulated for your comfort. And by the way, the internet is NOT just for business.  Although that is 80% of my use, I love reading other people’s philosophies, learning about other cultures and geography and shopping for an RV, right now.  :) I’ll accept the risks and problems to support freedom any day!  :) Thanks for your post.  I hope that you will also support the freedoms that are provided by a lawful society.  Most of the people who argue the loudest for unregulated internet actually want the benefits of a lawful society — but want to hold in reserve, their ability to break the law when it suits them.   Now look– I am a radical, I am a Vietnam era protester and have been a freedom fighter my whole life.  But if you don’t want to obey the law, get involved in the democratic process and speak out to protect your rights and your interests.

I do get involved.  :)  I vote on every issue after research and discussion. I talk and discuss issues that are important to me.  I respect everyone’s right to vote on everything and respect the decision when made, whether I agree or not. I live in a city where it is against the law to smoke – whoo hoo for me!  :) I like that.  But it is legal to smoke in other cities and I respect that. I don’t go there, but if I can’t avoid it, I accept and deal with smoke.  :) As far as wanting to be protected and do what I want, it is very simple: I obey laws that make sense and accept consequences if I break a law. It is insane for a civilized society to put laws on the books and then allow them to be broken, and refuse to enforce them, on the internet.  That is just stupid.

Okay.  What’s different about this than what I say.  I just don’t want certain laws on the books and I will speak out against them. Do remember that part of inter net means inter national.  :)  Would you support the laws of Iran if they support our laws?  Who will you support being extridited and on what grounds?  If a woman or child is considered property there, would you have us return them or protect them? While we’re wandering, what was your opinion on the Elian Gonzalas situation? Todd BOyle CPA

Thanks so much for your opinions.  :)  I’m enjoying our discussion.  :)   I invite others to join.  I support everyone’s right to an opinion and I will defend to the death, your right to have it, no matter what I think about it.  But I’ll also support the action I think is right.  Two different things.  :) Take care,   c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923

Response:

I have to strongly disagree with you here.  I am licensed as a ham operator and the main reason I accept the FCC regulating me is the "limited" bandwidth, so that it must be allocated or have chaos. The internet does not have a "real" limit, only a manufactured one.  In fact, there really aren’t limits as you can choose what you go look at, what newsgroups send things to you and in general what part of the ‘bandwidth’ you interact with. Criminals can just as easy broadcast illegally over the air waves, but it is extremely expensive and not much payback. REGULATION IS NOT THE ANSWER. Despite any regulation, it is still easy, cheap and has a high return (to ego or money). I obey streetlights because I want everyone else to.  If I didn’t care, NOTHING stops me from barreling down the street anywhere I want, until I crash or get arrested.  Hmm, then they take my license away.  I can drive without a license. My point is, that regulation puts burden on those that enforce it without really detracting from those who want to ignore it. Most of what people are doing now is illegal.  If you disrupt a business, it’s illegal.  If you share porn, it’s illegal. I can agree that countries should work towards supporting each other laws, but I love the internet being open as possible. You are not entitled to have someone else protect you on a medium that you have the option of not interacting with.  If you don’t like the internet’s many, many benefits, go away.     I don’t want you to go away, but I want you to choose, not have me regulated for your comfort. And by the way, the internet is NOT just for business.  Although that is 80% of my use, I love reading other people’s philosophies, learning about other cultures and geography and shopping for an RV, right now.  :) I’ll accept the risks and problems to support freedom any day!  :) Take care,  c. — Cindy Fox Computer Training Solutions www.cindyfox.com (602) 692-8923

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortunately the Internet (which is world wide) cannot be regulated within national boundaries. The Australian Government has passed laws to outlaw pornography on the net, but all they have done is to drive the operators off shore. Those are all good points. We certainly need to be able to implement some form of protection against criminal attacks on the net.  I would be interested to hear if you have some ideas on how this might be achieved. I posted them.  The principle thrust is to stop treating the internet like citizens band radio — hell this is even worse!  Any dumb ass can setup a transmitter with unlimited speed, and unlimited bandwidth connection to the internet and spew out unlimited volumes of spam, port scans, viruses and hacker attacks and say, "Oh gee, I’m sorry, we don’t know where those packets came from!" Of course the "internet community" i.e. big infrastructure operators, actually DO have working arrangements in this case and the offending parties are subject to being blocked if they offend in certain ways.  This only proves the point that the industry is CAPABLE of policing itself, but doesn’t want to spend the money other than to the extent necessary to optimize its OWN profit.  Do you understand what I’m saying?  This is a classic tragedy of the commons, which calls for legislative remedy. Not many will agree with my ideas since after all, they are not fun, and are all business.  But the current lack of regulation makes it impossible for small business to get things we need very badly, in terms of payment and commerce capabilities, secure communications, non-repudiation, and authentication. We are entitled to a reasonable degree of protection from criminal activity on the internet, and if the present profit-making operators of the routers and infrastructure don’t see fit to improve the situation, then the proper avenue for redress is thru our elected representatives, who are always eager to jump in and take over problems like this. There are many, many instances historically, of industries that ultimately failed to regulate themselves and are now being regulated very nicely by state and national laws.  So, it will not be the end of western civilization if the internet becomes regulated. Todd * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

I have to strongly disagree with you here.  I am licensed as a ham operator and the main reason I accept the FCC regulating me is the "limited" bandwidth, so that it must be allocated or have chaos.

Hi Cindy, I was a ham for a number of years, WA7DGZ… expired now, though. The internet does not have a "real" limit, only a manufactured one.  In fact, there really aren’t limits as you can choose what you go look at, what newsgroups send things to you and in general what part of the ‘bandwidth’ you interact with.

The question isn’t whether the network’s limits are real.  There can be no doubt, that misbehaving citizens on the network cause damage to the ability of other peoples’ servers, data and connectivity. Criminals can just as easy broadcast illegally over the air waves, but it is extremely expensive and not much payback. REGULATION IS NOT THE ANSWER.

You still haven’t made any coherent argument as to the reasons for your position. Despite any regulation, it is still easy, cheap and has a high return (to ego or money). I obey streetlights because I want everyone else to.  If I didn’t care, NOTHING stops me from barreling down the street anywhere I want, until I crash or get arrested.  Hmm, then they take my license away.  I can drive without a license.

I agree that effective mechanisms making crime impossible are preferred over regulations that end with the result "… and then you go to jail". Anything that requires human monitoring and enforcement, or after-the-fact remedy is an inferior solution.  Here are the choices  1. components that make it mechanically difficult or impossible to spoof,     hack, intrude, etc. such as IPV6, 1024 bit encryption, smartcards,     biological authentication  2. components or practices that make it impossible to commit crimes without     being recorded or detected, such as logging and monitoring systems, but     which are easy for clerks of low intelligence to trace the individual an     prosecute, and which have high percentage of prosecution e.g. the IRS’     reporting of income at source, stuff like that.  3. components that make it impossible to get away with crimes without leaving     some kind of evidence but which require expensive investigation an evidence     gathering, and can only be enforced on small percentage of violations. So we are in agreement, number one is the preferred form of regulation? My point is, that regulation puts burden on those that enforce it without really detracting from those who want to ignore it.

I agree that any regulations should actually be effective enough at some particular objective that they would unquestionably yield net economic gain to the internet community at large.  If such regulations were proposed, and gains could be demonstrated, would you then support them? Most of what people are doing now is illegal.  If you disrupt a business, it’s illegal.  If you share porn, it’s illegal. I can agree that countries should work towards supporting each other laws, but I love the internet being open as possible.

Porn is legal.  Theft, child abuse, etc are illegal and the internet community should pull their heads out of their irresponsible asses and help enforce the laws, instead of protecting criminals in their ranks. You are not entitled to have someone else protect you on a medium that you have the option of not interacting with.  If you don’t like the internet’s many, many benefits, go away.     I don’t want you to go away, but I want you to choose, not have me regulated for your comfort. And by the way, the internet is NOT just for business.  Although that is 80% of my use, I love reading other people’s philosophies, learning about other cultures and geography and shopping for an RV, right now.  :) I’ll accept the risks and problems to support freedom any day!  :)

Thanks for your post.  I hope that you will also support the freedoms that are provided by a lawful society.  Most of the people who argue the loudest for unregulated internet actually want the benefits of a lawful society — but want to hold in reserve, their ability to break the law when it suits them.   Now look– I am a radical, I am a Vietnam era protester and have been a freedom fighter my whole life.  But if you don’t want to obey the law, get involved in the democratic process and speak out to protect your rights and your interests.   It is insane for a civilized society to put laws on the books and then allow them to be broken, and refuse to enforce them, on the internet.  That is just stupid. Todd BOyle CPA

Response:

Todd, You say "Federal regulation of Internet services is overdue." Unfortunately the Internet (which is world wide) cannot be regulated within national boundaries. The Australian Government has passed laws to outlaw pornography on the net, but all they have done is to drive the operators off shore. We certainly need to be able to implement some form of protection against criminal attacks on the net.  I would be interested to hear if you have some ideas on how this might be achieved. — Ken Russell Sydney Australia

Now that ILoveYOu is over with, and my computer is still working, I been researching how to prevent the next one. Here is a deja news search with the latest/greatest technical discussion

+2000&todate=Dec+31+2000&LNG=ALL&format=threaded&DBS=1&showsort=score&maxhi t – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – s=100&defaultOp=AND The root of the problem seems to be Windows Scripting Host.  As long as you have that on your computer, it’s only a matter of time until more viruses come along to use it.  Granted, there are plenty of other executables an intruder can use to hurt you, but WSH appears to be a bigger risk than others. There are scripts you can run in linux that increase the security of the computer by going around tightening up fifty things… I wonder if there are any scripts like that for WinNT4? That would be the only good use of WSH or vbscript I can think of <G Another problem is the lack of regulation of the internet.  The security of the internet could be greatly improved by expenditures by ISPs and infrastructure providers on better security. Many good and worthy things would result from a more secure internet. Since self regulation has not emerged, the security situation on internet today is a "tragedy of the commons".  The industry’s savings of $1 on security is costing the rest of society $5. Federal regulation of internet services is overdue.  Cost of bandwidth would increase modestly, for all carriers, equally, and the benefits to the economy will exceed the costs. Federal regulation of the internet should include the following: 1. ISPs prohibited from routing packets from their zone or subnets containing source address not in their subnet. This would have prevented the DDoS attack that took place against Yahoo in February. 2. Know your Customer regulations, making ISPs and carriers liable for damages for acts by their subscribers if they do not document minimal compliance to know their customer and control their nets. 3. Some minimal logging of IP traffic. 4. Some minimal monitoring for obvious hacker activity like repeated port scanning of multiple remote addresses. 5. Mandatory adoption dates for IPv6 soon, like within 24 months, and sunset date for IPV4 for large carriers first, followed in stages by smaller carriers. Telcos have no incentive to improve security of the free internet. Their incentive is to drive businesses to secure private links. Likewise they have no interest in a well-performing internet, that would provide clear IP telephony. At this late date it is crystal clear that large telecomms companies, mass media content providers actively want to screw the small business sector from participating in e-commerce.  The software companies who are beholden to enterprise clients also have little interest in a secure internet. If the internet were secure we could all have a static IP address and run our entire home or business marvelously, with it.  You could run a webserver, FTP server or online commerce from your home.  You could run an open telephone or videoconference connection, which anybody could call, anytime just as they can now connect with a telephone.  These things are impractical today because the firewall is 100 times more expensive and complex than the application itself. When big business is bitten by hackers, Pres. Clinton and all his cronies in the telecoms and banking biz. pretend concern.  Meanwhile, nothing is being done to fundamentally fix the internet. Let’s talk about why the government sector wants the internet to be insecure: to maintain their absolute grip on the banking system and commerce in this country, which is the key to easy collection of taxes.   If citizens could conduct business over the internet, we might stop driving to the bank and exchanging pretty pieces of paper.  That might result in the government sector shrinking below the present 35% of the GNP.  So, they need hordes of thieves and vandals, keeping the internet insecure. Read about digital cash http://www.philodox.com * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033      (425) 827-3107

Response:

Now that ILoveYOu is over with, and my computer is still working, I been researching how to prevent the next one. Here is a deja news search with the latest/greatest technical discussion +2000&todate=Dec+31+2000&LNG=ALL&format=threaded&DBS=1&showsort=score&maxhi t s=100&defaultOp=AND The root of the problem seems to be Windows Scripting Host.  As long as you have that on your computer, it’s only a matter of time until more viruses come along to use it.  Granted, there are plenty of other executables an intruder can use to hurt you, but WSH appears to be a bigger risk than others. There are scripts you can run in linux that increase the security of the computer by going around tightening up fifty things… I wonder if there are any scripts like that for WinNT4? That would be the only good use of WSH or vbscript I can think of <G Another problem is the lack of regulation of the internet.  The security of the internet could be greatly improved by expenditures by ISPs and infrastructure providers on better security. Many good and worthy things would result from a more secure internet. Since self regulation has not emerged, the security situation on internet today is a "tragedy of the commons".  The industry’s savings of $1 on security is costing the rest of society $5. Federal regulation of internet services is overdue.  Cost of bandwidth would increase modestly, for all carriers, equally, and the benefits to the economy will exceed the costs. Federal regulation of the internet should include the following: 1. ISPs prohibited from routing packets from their zone or subnets containing source address not in their subnet. This would have prevented the DDoS attack that took place against Yahoo in February. 2. Know your Customer regulations, making ISPs and carriers liable for damages for acts by their subscribers if they do not document minimal compliance to know their customer and control their nets. 3. Some minimal logging of IP traffic. 4. Some minimal monitoring for obvious hacker activity like repeated port scanning of multiple remote addresses. 5. Mandatory adoption dates for IPv6 soon, like within 24 months, and sunset date for IPV4 for large carriers first, followed in stages by smaller carriers. Telcos have no incentive to improve security of the free internet. Their incentive is to drive businesses to secure private links. Likewise they have no interest in a well-performing internet, that would provide clear IP telephony. At this late date it is crystal clear that large telecomms companies, mass media content providers actively want to screw the small business sector from participating in e-commerce.  The software companies who are beholden to enterprise clients also have little interest in a secure internet. If the internet were secure we could all have a static IP address and run our entire home or business marvelously, with it.  You could run a webserver, FTP server or online commerce from your home.  You could run an open telephone or videoconference connection, which anybody could call, anytime just as they can now connect with a telephone.  These things are impractical today because the firewall is 100 times more expensive and complex than the application itself. When big business is bitten by hackers, Pres. Clinton and all his cronies in the telecoms and banking biz. pretend concern.  Meanwhile, nothing is being done to fundamentally fix the internet. Let’s talk about why the government sector wants the internet to be insecure: to maintain their absolute grip on the banking system and commerce in this country, which is the key to easy collection of taxes.   If citizens could conduct business over the internet, we might stop driving to the bank and exchanging pretty pieces of paper.  That might result in the government sector shrinking below the present 35% of the GNP.  So, they need hordes of thieves and vandals, keeping the internet insecure. Read about digital cash http://www.philodox.com * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033      (425) 827-3107

Response:

Question:

Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Response:

John – I, as a reseller for several other products, was recruited to resell Great Plains as well.  I decided not to include the product in my list of available products for several reasons (note this was 2 years ago).  I list the following:     1)    Tech Support – try calling them and getting an answer that actually answers your question.     2)    If your company purchases the product as a single user system and then in the future requires a multi-user, you are assessed the original purchase price and more for this option.  There are many products available that allow the client to add "user licenses" at a minimal fee for this future need.     3)    Finally, I found the product cumbersome to setup and new users for my clients would require a great amount of training to learn it. You might also inquire as the yearly maintenance costs for technical support, PR Tax Table updates, etc. before you make your final decision. DeeDee Heyne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

  dbhent.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

I would like to comment on a couple of the following: 1) Great Plains is constantly rated one of the best companies for providing support both to end users and to resellers. 2) Not true.  If you buy a single user system and wish to move to multi-user your original investment is applied to the new purchase. 3)  It does require a great deal of setup and training and that is because Great Plains’ products are very feature rich and powerful.  Flexibility like that comes with a price and that price is in increased implementation fees. Alan — Alan C. Whitehouse The Resource Group Great Plains Reseller 1400 Talbot Rd. S., Suite 301 Renton, WA 98055 (425) 277-4760 http://www.resgroup.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John – I, as a reseller for several other products, was recruited to resell Great Plains as well.  I decided not to include the product in my list of available products for several reasons (note this was 2 years ago).  I list the following:     1)    Tech Support – try calling them and getting an answer that actually answers your question.     2)    If your company purchases the product as a single user system and then in the future requires a multi-user, you are assessed the original purchase price and more for this option.  There are many products available that allow the client to add "user licenses" at a minimal fee for this future need.     3)    Finally, I found the product cumbersome to setup and new users for my clients would require a great amount of training to learn it. You might also inquire as the yearly maintenance costs for technical support, PR Tax Table updates, etc. before you make your final decision. DeeDee Heyne Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Response:

Great Plains makes some great software but without knowing more about your organization there is no way of knowing if it might be good (or bad) for you. Alan — Alan C. Whitehouse The Resource Group Great Plains Reseller 1400 Talbot Rd. S., Suite 301 Renton, WA 98055 (425) 277-4760 http://www.resgroup.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Response:

Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Great Plains software is perfectly irrelevant to 99.9% of small and midrange businesses because it is waay up in the high end on pricing, and maintenance.  You could buy a house for $50,000 and five figures per year in maintenance… Great Plains software is for the fortune 1000.  Companies who need the functionality of GPS:  you know who you are:  There is a great website for you at http://www.erpfans.com for ERP software; no aspersions intended, on GPS itself. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

Great Plains has a very good reputation. We regularly compete against them (I’m a MAS90 reseller). We do not run into many companies switching from Great Plains. We run into many more switching from lower tier products like RealWorld or Accpac…..the systems that haven’t done as well or been upgraded as much in recent years. You can get some independent feedback at http://www.ctsguides.com — they produce and Expertalk survey annually that queries resellers of various products and publishes the results (things like satisfaction and other juicy comments). If I were looking for software in today’s market, I’d be focussing on: Great Plains Solomon MAS90 (biased) Navision I find that they all have a typical price of around $1,500 per module and an equal amount in consulting/setup time. Typical client for me is in the $1 million to $ 50 million range. Regards, Wayne http://www.s-consult.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks Great Plains software is perfectly irrelevant to 99.9% of small and midrange businesses because it is waay up in the high end on pricing, and maintenance.  You could buy a house for $50,000 and five figures per year in maintenance… Great Plains software is for the fortune 1000.  Companies who need the functionality of GPS:  you know who you are:  There is a great website for you at http://www.erpfans.com for ERP software; no aspersions intended, on GPS itself. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

– Schulz Consulting is an authorized consultant/reseller for the popular MAS90 accounting software. Visit us online at http://www.s-consult.com Before you buy.

Response:

Irrelevant?  Hardly. Perhaps there is some need of an explanation of ‘Great Plains’, which is a company, not a product.  Generally, when folks are talking about ‘Great Plains’, they are talking about the product called Dynamics – their foundation product.  They also support a lower end product called Great Plains Accounting, which I think is on the way out. Dynamics also has a higher end brother called Dynamics C/S+.  Dynamics runs on C-Tree, which is a low end (1-5 users) that can support both MAC and PC clients, or BTrieve (now called Pervasive SQL).  Pervasive SQL can support up to 12-14 users.  C/S+ runs on Microsoft SQL for high end processing but low numbers of users (limited to 10).  This product doesn’t really seem to have a place and I doubt it will live many more years.  GP’s ERP product is called eEnterprise and runs on SQL as well.  It is extremely expensive but can scale up to run extremely large companies. In summary, GP has several different products to suit the size of different businesses. I am a GP reseller and would be happy to answer any questions you may specific to your industry.  Unless you’re close geographically, I would suggest another reseller that could be more hands-on.  However, don’t take my word for it.  Check out independant evaluations from people who actually know something about the product, you can start at: http://www.accountingsoftwarenews.com Mike. Michael Cooper Director of Information Systems Hisle and Company Lexington, Kentucky

Response:

Software: good. Price: a little steep. Flexibility: adequate but not comparable to UA Corporate Accounting.  - Carl Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Respectfully,   – Carl Dick www.cpaccess.com 800-997-7944 949-261-2694  California, USA

Response:

Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

John: Our company has been using Dynamics for 2 years and have had a very positive experience.  We moved off of a mini-computer based system.  We are a relatively small company (under $25 million in revenues) and only use Dynamics for General Ledger, Accounts Payable and Bank Rec.  Our Vertical Market Software Vendor supplies software strictly for our industry, and thus it handles all other funcitons and needs.  Our experiences with Great Plains Dynamics include: – Participating in Great Plains Training Class prior to implementation where we were not only trained on using the software, but also setting up the system. – Performing all set-ups in-house.  (Our total training class bill paid to Great Plains plus the consulting bill paid to our VAR was less than 40% of the purchase price of the software. – As yet, having not utilized the first one of the 5-pack of Support Calls that we purchased with the software.  I know this sounds unbelievable, however our company’s experience with software systems is such that we are capable, ‘low-maintenance’ users. – A good working relationship with our VAR, who was supportive of our desire to perform set-ups in-house.  Our company’s philosophy is to try to be as self-supportive as possible, and therefore, we felt if we did not perform the set-ups ourselves, we wouldn’t be as successful making changes later. While we appreciate the value of the VAR, the success of our experience with the product (and its ability to meet and continue to support our needs) was more important to them than selling us alot of consulting time. – We designed and utilize a combination of Unit and Variable Allocation accounts combined with a unique Account Segment design to enable Automated Allocations of Costs using Activity based costing models built in to Dynamics.  The software, and its FRx reporting utilities are certainly feature rich enough for our needs. In sum, having spent around $9k for the software (4-user license), and around $5k in total implementation/support/upgrade costs for the first 2 years of utilization, it has been an excellent solution for our company. You may want to look at www.ctsguides.com They publish a helpful tool for Accounting Software selection. Good luck with your selection. Kevin Nelson <Remove the dontspamme for e-mail

Response:

Question:

Hey guys tell mw what you think…ever been told you are obessed with this WOE??  My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup.  I am always up here checking things out.  Hey I do think more about just this, the very reason I am lcing is so that I can be in better health so that I can be around for along time for my husband and 9mos son. gotta go

Response:

Hey guys tell mw what you think…ever been told you are obessed with this WOE??  My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup.  I am always up here checking things out.  Hey I do think more about just this, the very reason I am lcing is so that I can be in better health so that I can be around for along time for my husband and 9mos son. gotta go

My wife is getting sick of me using the word "carbohydrate"!       — – Mike 235+/190/190 PP 5/4/99

Response:

I *was* obsessed for the first few months.  It was very hard for me to not go about continuously preaching the LC word.  And I can’t say that I completely controlled myself. lol!  But I got a few people on this WOE.  A couple are even on this group.  You know who you are. Cat PP 6/28/99: 189/155/155 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey guys tell mw what you think…ever been told you are obessed with this WOE??  My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup.  I am always up here checking things out.  Hey I do think more about just this, the very reason I am lcing is so that I can be in better health so that I can be around for along time for my husband and 9mos son. gotta go

Response:

x-no-archive: yes My wife is getting sick of me using the word "carbohydrate"!       So use carb instead.

Somehow I think she’s be on to me there too! Accountants are pretty clever people!               — – Mike 235+/190/190 PP 5/4/99

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There is? — Debbie Cusick "When I get a little money I buy books: and if any is left over I buy food and clothes. "  - Erasmus Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup

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SNIP!   My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup.

There is????  Why didn’t you guys tell me!!! geese, just when you think you have it figured out, someone tells you there is a world away from the ng. go figure! Jae lifeless

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No one has ever told me that but I have to wonder  if I am or if others think I am. I think I have to be kind of obsessive about it, at least until it becomes as natural as eating low fat/high carb used to be. Stephanie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey guys tell mw what you think…ever been told you are obessed with this WOE??  My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup.  I am always up here checking things out.  Hey I do think more about just this, the very reason I am lcing is so that I can be in better health so that I can be around for along time for my husband and 9mos son. gotta go

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: : My wife is getting sick of me using the word "carbohydrate"!       : — I’ve driven my mom crazy on the weekends when I go home and now I’m not allowed to mention the diet anymore.

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Diet Coke and said : I *was* obsessed for the first few months.  It was very hard for me to not go about continuously preaching the LC word.  And I can’t say that I completely controlled myself. lol!  But I got a few people on this WOE.  A couple are even on this group.  You know who you are.

I was too. I was convinced that *any* carbs I ate were going to make me gain 800 pounds. But I made myself accept that that was not true.

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hmmmm, obsession with the LC WOE, or obsession with the chocolate cake and ice cream….LC…chocolate cake…LC….I think if I’m going to be obsessed with one or the other..LC RULES  JMHO! …and I figure the obsession will disappear….along with the weight. kat lc 10/99 380/342/160 next mini goal 330 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey guys tell mw what you think…ever been told you are obessed with this WOE??  My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup.  I am always up here checking things out.  Hey I do think more about just this, the very reason I am lcing is so that I can be in better health so that I can be around for along time for my husband and 9mos son. gotta go

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If I remember correctly, my DH did say something about his not becoming obsessive about eating low carb or staying on this diet.     (If he really wants something, he’s gonna eat it, damn it!) Hmmmm….could that be why he put back on all the weight that he lost…and then some? Me? I’ll stay "obsessive" if that what it takes. Jo NJ

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Obsessed??? Me obsessed???  Nah…..although I did have to fight off the urge to ask how many carbs were in the piece of pasta I accidently ate in the pasta salad I was served at lunch today. (I was really going for the broccoli and pepperoni in it instead). Ann Marie 259/227/130 1/10/00

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I might be "obsessed" with eating and living low carb but my husband better not say a word since he is "obsessed" over my new body!

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I’m sure my friends are sick of hearing about my diet…..who cares, I feel better. Jillena – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey guys tell mw what you think…ever been told you are obessed with this WOE??  My husband told me today at lunch that there is more to life that lcing and this newsgroup.  I am always up here checking things out.  Hey I do think more about just this, the very reason I am lcing is so that I can be in better health so that I can be around for along time for my husband and 9mos son. gotta go

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Question:

Posted and emailed. This is a public reply to a post in alt.support.depression, please reply to that group, unless your reply is private.

i’ve been a professional programmer, analyst and consultant for 13 years.  i have been programming computers since i was 17, 22 years ago. might i politely point out that you are full of shit?    Did you ever see the movie "The Net" with Sandra Bullock?  It’s about a software company that got corportations to buy its security program by actually creating disasters like a stock market crash, or messing with the air traffic controllers’ computers. Even though that’s just a movie, I think maybe the same sort of thing has happened with Y2K.  

sandra bullock.  there’s an expert for you. Software companies have used the media to convince the public that computers will just stop working because of the change from ‘99 to ‘00. This may not be true for all computer systems, but I would think that most computers recognize 24 hour periods, not actual dates.

computers recognize whatever date format that their operating system is designed to recognize.  even if the os is y2k compliant, the applications software may not be. So after the 24 hours of Dec. 31st are up, clocks will simply start a new 24 hour countdown as they normally would.

computer clocks count upwards, not down. It’s not like your computer knowns the difference between a Friday or a Saturday, or ‘99 and ‘00.

the ibm as/400, the computer i have most of my expertise in, knows the following things: the hour the minute the second to the nearest hundredth the century the year to four digits the month the day of the month the day of the week what the last day of the month is what the offset from greenwich mean time is whether it’s daylight savings time or not it’s a very simple process to set up a job to run only on friday, or the last day of the month, or on the second tuesday every month, precisely because the system *does* know those things. The day and the year are meaningless.

bullshit.  tell our accounting department that. (For example, I’ve heard your VCR could be affected, so I set the clock to Fri. Dec. 31st 1999, and after 24 hours it changed to Sat. Jan. 1st 2000 (actually it just said ‘00).

your vcr is not a computer, it doesn’t control any atm networks or navigate any planes.   Most coporations know that there is no big problem

more bullshit. and have been working to make sure nothing bad happens since the early ’70s

i wish.  i been bitching about 2 digit dates in databases and programs for 13 years and nobody starting listening until about 3 years ago. (I know because my dad was an exec. at GM),

oh my god.  an executive, you say?  wow.  just like my boss, the cio of the north american division of an international 5 billion dollar a year corporation?  the same cheesehead that i have to print reports for, because he can’t figure it out for himself? let me let you in on a secret: executives, for the most part, don’t know jack-shit about technology.  they just give you problems and money to throw at them until they go away.  all they care about is whether units are moving out and money is coming in.  that’s it. but because there’s this big deal about it now,

because people like me, who know what the fuck is going on, have been screaming about it. they have to buy security software they don’t need, just so they can show the public that they are taking measures to avoid the problem.

these companies are owned by and work for the public, for the most part.   I know this was a long post, and you may not believe what I’m saying, but think of it this way, How could the change to 2000 really affect the clock on your microwave, VCR, or computer when you can reset the clock to any day and time you want, or not set it at all ?

that’s fine for your home, but you can’t run a business that way. New Years Day is no the end of the world,   It’s just a Saturday.  

want my personal predictions? 1) it won’t be the end of the world.  a lot of millennialists and    new-agers will be sorely disappointed to find out we’re still    here. 2) a fair percentage of the small businesses in this country    (usa) will go under.  think 2-3 percent.  you realize, i hope,    that 80 percent of our jobs are provided by small businesses    and not large corporations.  and these businesses have not    been nearly as pressured to prepare. 3) the current economic boom will end abruptly.  we’ll have a    significant depression, lasting at least 3-5 years. 4) there will be some power supply and food shortages, but not as    widespread as some doomsayers would have you believe. 5) recent polls show that 80 percent of people in some regions,    notably virginia, : ( , will be arming themselves for y2k.    some idiot is going to get killed over this. of course, i could be wrong.  i’m an optimist, after all. . . ; ) john mark "dysthymia don’t dance." Dysthymia

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About this y2k I’m really   not worried because it seems as though the more you worry the more the situation gets out of control so the best thing to do is just be prepared to the best of ypur ability and just pray that the worst doesn’t be here.

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   Did you ever see the movie "The Net" with Sandra Bullock?  It’s about a software company that got corportations to buy its security program by actually creating disasters like a stock market crash, or messing with the air traffic controllers’ computers. Even though that’s just a movie, I think maybe the same sort of thing has happened with Y2K.     Software companies have used the media to convince the public that computers will just stop working because of the change from ‘99 to ‘00. This may not be true for all computer systems, but I would think that most computers recognize 24 hour periods, not actual dates. So after the 24 hours of Dec. 31st are up, clocks will simply start a new 24 hour countdown as they normally would. It’s not like your computer knowns the difference between a Friday or a Saturday, or ‘99 and ‘00. The day and the year are meaningless. (For example, I’ve heard your VCR could be affected, so I set the clock to Fri. Dec. 31st 1999, and after 24 hours it changed to Sat. Jan. 1st 2000 (actually it just said ‘00).   Most coporations know that there is no big problem  and have been working to make sure nothing bad happens since the early ’70s (I know because my dad was an exec. at GM), but because there’s this big deal about it now, they have to buy security software they don’t need, just so they can show the public that they are taking measures to avoid the problem.   I know this was a long post, and you may not believe what I’m saying, but think of it this way, How could the change to 2000 really affect the clock on your microwave, VCR, or computer when you can reset the clock to any day and time you want, or not set it at all ? New Years Day is no the end of the world,   It’s just a Saturday.  

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this is one thing that triggered my depression….and I do need a generator or my house floods( rural gal)    I am super worried but am doing the best I can. Ive always anticipated the worst and driven myself in the ground to try and stop the worst from happening…thats my control thing…just do your best, buy some water and canned food to last you for a bit and keep your meds updated by a month…..dont be obsessed like me about this …its no picnic, especially when funds are low and there are children involved and I feel super responsible ((((hugs)))))) kaat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband and I are just going to stockup on water, ensure , balance bars, ( girly things for me ) , and definitely take out most of our cash a few weeks before, probably around the 15th of Dec. Thats it, oh and kerosene for a heater we have and for our lanterns. Thats about it. Who knows whats going to happen, the Govt says everything is going to be ok, I never trust the Govt. lol , thats why we are stocking up some. RC She Was Just A Wish ..She Was Just A Wish And Her Memory Is All That Is Left Of Her Now… ~ Stevie Nicks ~

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My husband and I are just going to stockup on water, ensure , balance bars, ( girly things for me ) , and definitely take out most of our cash a few weeks before, probably around the 15th of Dec. Thats it, oh and kerosene for a heater we have and for our lanterns. Thats about it. Who knows whats going to happen, the Govt says everything is going to be ok, I never trust the Govt. lol , thats why we are stocking up some. RC She Was Just A Wish ..She Was Just A Wish And Her Memory Is All That Is Left Of Her Now… ~ Stevie Nicks ~

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They just did a news story about how to buy electric generators "in case anything goes wrong at the New Year".  I’m completely confused about this y2k business.  My head says nothing is going to happen, and I shouldn’t worry about it. My gut can’t help but notice news stories about buying generators "in case". Does anyone here know just how worried one should be?

I would not buy a generator. Imagine a powerful hurricane hitting your community. Things might be inconvenient for a few days. I think that’s the * worst * you should anticipate. OTOH, I wouldn’t be on an airplane at midnight. And New Year’s Eve — any year — is a great time to meet up with a drunk driver. Sttuck

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Lisa, I suppose that it all depends on what your council/local governmen/ local shops and people have done to prepare themselves for it. If they have then yoyu have nothing to fear, Most business would have done what they have to do to survive the yk2 otherwise they would loose too much money. I personally don’t think that you have too much to worry about. (but i live in perth australia, may be a totally different ball game where you reside on this big blue planet.) Don’t know if that helps you at all. Ed {My life is a mess and so is my bedroom} – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They just did a news story about how to buy electric generators "in case anything goes wrong at the New Year".  I’m completely confused about this y2k business.  My head says nothing is going to happen, and I shouldn’t worry about it. My gut can’t help but notice news stories about buying generators "in case". Does anyone here know just how worried one should be? lisa scheduled to do a wedding Jan 1, so I can’t be locked in my house against looters! — Power concedes nothing without a demand.                                  Frederick Douglass

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They just did a news story about how to buy electric generators "in case anything goes wrong at the New Year".  I’m completely confused about this y2k business.  My head says nothing is going to happen, and I shouldn’t worry about it. My gut can’t help but notice news stories about buying generators "in case". Does anyone here know just how worried one should be? lisa scheduled to do a wedding Jan 1, so I can’t be locked in my house against looters! — Power concedes nothing without a demand.                                  Frederick Douglass

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Um…..well….you don’t know much about computers do you? There’s no great conspiracy.  Y2K isn’t something dreamed up by huge corporations.  There are legitmate issues that need to be addressed.  Most companies have already addressed them.  I work for a major Bank and we are OVER prepared.  Nothing will happen to your money, we’ve been prepared for over a year. Computers do know the date and time.  They know it because they were programmed that way.  Where did you get the idea that they only know 24 hour periods?  My computer updates me to daylight savings time and back when it’s the appropriate time.  I don’t have to do anything. I agree that it is not going to be the end of the world.  In fact, it will probably go by without a lot of trouble, at least for the corporations that prepared themselves. I work in a technology and operations division of my corporation.  i am a developer.  I don’t sell software. this is not a big media blitz.  yes, there is a lot of over hysteria, but Y2K will make several companies go out of business, if they weren’t prepared. Luckily, all the smart ones are prepared.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Did you ever see the movie "The Net" with Sandra Bullock? It’s about a software company that got corportations to buy its security program by actually creating disasters like a stock market crash, or messing with the air traffic controllers’ computers. Even though that’s just a movie, I think maybe the same sort of thing has happened with Y2K.   Software companies have used the media to convince the public that computers will just stop working because of the change from ‘99 to ‘00. This may not be true for all computer systems, but I would think that most computers recognize 24 hour periods, not actual dates. So after the 24 hours of Dec. 31st are up, clocks will simply start a new 24 hour countdown as they normally would. It’s not like your compute r knowns the difference between a Friday or a Saturday, or ‘99 and ‘00. The day and the year are meaningless. (For example, I’ve heard your VCR could be affected, so I set the clock to Fri. Dec. 31st 1999, and after 24 hours it changed to Sat. Jan. 1st 2000 (actually it just said ‘00).   Most coporations know that there is no big problem  and have been working to make sure nothing bad happens since the early ’70s (I know because my dad was an exec. at GM), but because there’s this big deal about it now, they have to buy security software they don’t need, just so they can show the public that they are taking measures to avoid the problem.   I know this was a long post, and you may not believe what I’m saying, but think of it this way, How could the change to 2000 really affect the clock on your microwave, VCR, or computer when you can reset the clock to any day and time you want, or not set it at all ? New Years Day is no the end of the world,   It’s just a Saturday.

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 I’m glad to hear from someone who actually works with computers, but the one thing I wanted to point out is that , since I read in some news articles and saw on the news that they weren’t 100% sure that it wouldn’t affect your VCR, PC, microwave, etc., the chances that it would seemed ridiculous (just like you said).   Also, the media HAS focused on Y2K, causing a lot of people to become worried about it, and I think this could develop into a kind of panic as we get closer to New Year’s. People cleaning out their bank accounts and raiding supermarkets, for example, would create an even bigger problem than it would have been in the first place.   I would have thought that you’d agree that Y2K is not a new problem, companies have known about this for a long time, but national attention has only been given to it within the past year. So what exactly do you plan to do to prepare for it, if anything?

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I plan to be on a plane at midnight. Mistake?

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Don’t take out your cash!  You’ll end up being robbed and lose everything!  Keep it in the bank where it is safe.  Banks have been ready for this for a long time.  I work for a major bank, and your money is perfectly safe, much safer than if it was in your house. jaz

My husband and I are just going to stockup on water, ensure , balance bars, ( girly things for me ) , and definitely take out most of our cash a few weeks before, probably around the 15th of Dec. Thats it, oh and

kerosene for a heater – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we have and for our lanterns. Thats about it. Who knows whats going to happen, the Govt says everything is going to be ok, I never trust the Govt. lol , thats why we are stocking up some. RC She Was Just A Wish ..She Was Just A Wish And Her Memory Is All That Is Left Of Her Now… ~ Stevie Nicks ~

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Lisa — looks like you’ve gotten some advice already so I hope you don’t mind some more.  I don’t think anyone can predict with certainty what will or will not happen.  A lot of people seem to believe that there might be some glitches. Looking at the entire planet, even the entire country, one or two glitches wouldn’t surprise me.  And, I’ve seen the way people in my town panic when there’s even a moderate snowstorm — you trek into Kroger and there’s no bread left on the shelves cause everyone has panicked.  Everyone knows that it will be sunny two or three days down the road, but, they panic none the same. I think that even if there aren’t any major disruptions in the power supply or the food supply or the banks ability to provide ready cash, there will probably be some freaking out.  I’d rather have enough food stored up for a couple of weeks so that I don’t have to go out and deal with it while it’s going on.  Thanksgiving week is bad enough to try to buy groceries, I can’t imagine how some people might behave if they thought they didn’t know when they’d ever see food again. I read one article that said that about a million people in the United States are affected by some type of disaster every year, whether that be power outages from blizzards or having to evacuate because of a hurricaine.  The positive side of Y2K is that people have bought first aid kits, flash lights, battery operated radios, fire extinguishers, stuff they should always keep around anyway. This is a bit of a digression, but I have a friend who says she’s sick of hearing about Y2K because she thinks that absolutely nothing would happen at all. This surprised me because she usually tends to be a little more conscientious.   She’s on medication for an illness that she has to get every day, and she would get very sick if she didn’t have it.  She has made no attempt to deal with this or even try to figure out how her clinic is going to handle it.  I think she is so afraid of what would happen that she’s convinced herself that there is zero chance that Y2K will be any problem whatsoever. Or, then again, maybe she’s right and there is zero chance that Y2K will be any problem whatsoever. I dunno. Gabrielle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They just did a news story about how to buy electric generators "in case anything goes wrong at the New Year".  I’m completely confused about this y2k business.  My head says nothing is going to happen, and I shouldn’t worry about it. My gut can’t help but notice news stories about buying generators "in case". Does anyone here know just how worried one should be? lisa scheduled to do a wedding Jan 1, so I can’t be locked in my house against looters! — Power concedes nothing without a demand.                                  Frederick Douglass

Before you buy.

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Here’s another little piece of info to ponder.  The IRS (American tax management) will not allow companies to amortize the cost of Y2K compliance over several years. All companies must claim the cost of compliancy within whatever year it was paid.  My company alone (insurance) paid over $20 million this year (they’re still working on it) in making our systems compliant.  Gee, wonder what that might do to the company’s stock?  Just to be safe, I took what little profit sharing I have and moved it from stocks to money market for the time being.

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