Question:
"Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIco…@nospam.com> writes: > No formatting in place since I had to switch from HTML, which is too ick for > words…. So responses are in-line with no carets for the source. Struggle > through if you wish… or not.
I don’t use html, and have no trouble with formatting. Presumably it is a configuration issue with your newsreader!
Response:
"Richard" <midig…@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:41CB017C.A7F44CA8@hotmail.com… WhansaMi wrote:
I’d see it differently. Opinions are not *actions*. Totally different. IMO, you are entitled to your opinions. Your wife is entitled to think your opinions are wrong. Conversely, you are entitled to believe her opinions are wrong. But, actions that have an impact on the other should be negotiated. You can talk to one another. You can argue. But, (again, IMO) taking action that reflects on the couple/family should be agreed upon in advance. Everything you say here makes sense. But a couple of comments… a.. I wish my wife had the same philosophy as you. At least you seem to think that I’m entitled to my own opinion 
b.. You are correct… opinions are not actions. But the way they’re expressed *can* be. When discussion becomes brow-beating, we’ve moved into the "action realm". My wife seems to lack the capacity to "agree to disagree". IMO it’s time to redefine the conversation. So she is refusing to agree to disagree. Instead of getting your own panties in a wad, it might be helpful to say something like "Honey, I have already told you my opinion, but you keep bringing it up and up. What is it you need? Do you need to vent? Do you want me to DO something? I feel there is more going on here by the repetition, and I want to understand it. a.. Each time the issue was discussed, I gave her my blessing to contact the school, or to take some action of her choosing. She never did. It was as if "converting" me became more important. I realize there are times when a couple needs to be unified and take a common stand… but this was all about me moving over to her position… and not her becoming less consumed by this (as was my original position). b.. For brevity’s sake here, I did not include all the details of my actions with the school. But once my wife "converted" me, it was understood (between us) that the ball *was* in my court. And while my she was not completely in-the-loop, she was not completely in-the-dark either. But when she talks about the issue now, it’s almost as if she’s blind to the venom she felt/expressed at the time. I personally think that what is "understood" is often, well, not understood at all. Precise communication is referred. Honey I perceive that you are angry at me. I am not clear on what you want from me… a.. If you’re suggesting that I did not take the "high road"… I’ll be open-minded to that. But keep in mind, people do not always *take* the high road… when they’ve been treated poorly. And in my opinion, the way this issue was repeated visited was an exercise in "bad form". b.. Perhaps ironically, I can use this incident… to fend off future attempts at similar controlling behavior. :) c.. And periodically, I do suggest to my wife that we see a counselor. For both of us to have our philosophies, assumptions, and approaches put under scrutiny. But she never accepts. :) And it’s hard for me not to consider this refusal as a credibility issue (in the area of communication).
Response:
WhansaMi wrote: > I’d see it differently. Opinions are not *actions*. Totally different. > IMO, you are entitled to your opinions. Your wife is entitled to think your > opinions are wrong. > Conversely, you are entitled to believe her opinions are wrong. > But, actions that have an impact on the other should be negotiated. You can > talk to one another. You can argue. But, (again, IMO) taking action that > reflects on the couple/family should be agreed upon in advance.
Everything you say here makes sense. But a couple of comments… * I wish my wife had the same philosophy as you. At least you seem to think that I’m entitled to my own opinion * You are correct… opinions are not actions. But the way they’re expressed *can* be. When discussion becomes brow-beating, we’ve moved into the "action realm". My wife seems to lack the capacity to "agree to disagree". * Each time the issue was discussed, I gave her my blessing to contact the school, or to take some action of her choosing. She never did. It was as if "converting" me became more important. I realize there are times when a couple needs to be unified and take a common stand… but this was all about me moving over to her position… and not her becoming less consumed by this (as was my original position). * For brevity’s sake here, I did not include all the details of my actions with the school. But once my wife "converted" me, it was understood (between us) that the ball *was* in my court. And while my she was not completely in-the-loop, she was not completely in-the-dark either. But when she talks about the issue now, it’s almost as if she’s blind to the venom she felt/expressed at the time. * If you’re suggesting that I did not take the "high road"… I’ll be open-minded to that. But keep in mind, people do not always *take* the high road… when they’ve been treated poorly. And in my opinion, the way this issue was repeated visited was an exercise in "bad form". * Perhaps ironically, I can use this incident… to fend off future attempts at similar controlling behavior. :) * And periodically, I do suggest to my wife that we see a counselor. For both of us to have our philosophies, assumptions, and approaches put under scrutiny. But she never accepts. :) And it’s hard for me not to consider this refusal as a credibility issue (in the area of communication).
Response:
Jack C Lipton wrote: > Yes and no; it all matters on what she would > give and how she judges things. We all hedge our > decisions and place limits, but those with a > penchant for control aren’t going to change for > anyone else… though it’s usually strange how > others are expected to change for them.
Seems to me it’s not that ’some’ people have a penchant for control, but that most of us do at least some of the time. It’s just the degreee and way we have learned to control that differs. I’ve found that many people don’t even realise they are doing it. > (Note that I’ve got some drive to control and so > I also am an idiot in expecting my wife to > adapt to me.)
Good for you for admitting this to yourself. I too have control issues, but am aware of some/ many/all of them, and when I am fully "conscious" I am able to stop myself. At other times I struggle some. Seems to me that control issues are part and parcel of romance. But when is control a "good" thing and when is it "bad"? – Michaela
Response:
"WhansaMi" <whans…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041223111139.08281.00002963@mb-m04.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> <snip> But today, my wife tells me that I handled it wrong. And she > >laments. > >> that we no longer have a relationship with that person. I guess I was > >supposed > >> to clear every move with her > >> Me: My husband and I always expect to discuss something like this before > >> either of us acted on it. I’d be upset, too. > >> We address family issues as a couple. If it were something that was just > >in > >> our personal domain (like our own jobs), yes, we might make decisions > >without > >> consulting the other — although we tend to talk about it anyway, because > >we > >> are the other’s best friend and sounding board. But, we would both fully > >> expect to agree on a plan of action if there would be impact on the > >*family*. > >I agree 100% with the principals you state here. And on the whole, I am > >probably > >better at adhering to them (than my wife). But consider the context of my > >situation. For about a week, I took a position on an issue with my wife… > > * That I agreed with her in principal. > > * That I did not think the issue was worth pursuing. > > * But that she was free to contact the school in some fashion (phone, > >letter, > > in-person) and make an issue of it herself. > > * (And my demeanor, when discussing the issue, was "calm, cool, and > >collected.") > >But during that same week, my wife… > > * Was not capable of "agreeing to disagree". > > * Brought the issue up every day… with a demeanor that was angry, > >intense, and > > filled with disgust. > > * Repeatedly ran down the same litany of criticisms against this teacher. > > * Was highly critical of me, for not echoing her sentiments (making me > >"the > > issue" as much as the teacher). > > * But never contacted the school herself. > >In my opinion, in this situation my actions were reasonable. The way I see > >it, to > >be critical of the way I handled this seems to imply: > > * In my marriage, I’m not really entitled to my own opinions. > > * That ultimately, I’m supposed to follow my wife’s thoughts/feelings in a > >lock > > step manner. > >Rather than respecting my opinion, my wife spent a week brow-beating me. > >Lighting > >a fire under me. What’s the old saying about letting "sleeping dogs lie?" > >Sometimes I think (in general) that my opinion is supposed to be a compromise > >between her opinion and my opinion. :)
Two things, how did you get the nice little reply carets AND switch the format of the message to plain text? > I’d see it differently. Opinions are not *actions*. Totally different.
Me too. Although, I confess the sort of beating around the bush approach to figuring out what each partner wants is a little weird. It reminds me of this couple I knew a long, long time ago. They would agree to do thus and such some night. They would make no specific plans. She would go to meet him at place A and he would go to place B. After getting angry at each other for the mix up and a long argument about who assumed who would do what and what these various ambiguous signals they sent each other were supposed to *mean* … they would turn around and repeat the entire scenario 2 days later. I asked the woman why they did not just make specific plans. She looked at me like I was crazy. Don’t know what my point is anymore. > IMO, you are entitled to your opinions. Your wife is entitled to think your > opinions are wrong. > Conversely, you are entitled to believe her opinions are wrong. > But, actions that have an impact on the other should be negotiated. You can > talk to one another. You can argue. But, (again, IMO) taking action that > reflects on the couple/family should be agreed upon in advance.
Me too. What you said. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sheila
Response:
No formatting in place since I had to switch from HTML, which is too ick for words…. So responses are in-line with no carets for the source. Struggle through if you wish… or not. And part of the fallout from this is… they feel slighted (or insulted or demeaned or put-upon or…) At this point, the listening spouse may express disagreement – or may agree in principal (but may not see it as that big a deal). The offended spouse then switches their focus… from the original story, to the perceived lack-of-support of the other spouse. ("How could you not…!?!?") You know, I have certainly How Could You Notted my DH. Thankfully he had the self-respect and the respect for me to continue to discuss with me and not Yes Dear me. In the long run, agreeing to something that you do not agree with simply for hte sake of making you spouse feel better for the moment isn’t even nice, it is just kind of lame and lazy. There are times when it is appropriate to take on a spouse’s battle. Or join them in it. But there has to be a somewhat high treshhold for that to happen. I do not see this. (Remember the Michael Dukakis rape question in the 1988 Presidential Debate?) No. In my opinion, *most* interpersonnel conflicts do not come close to meeting such a standard. Especially if the offended spouse is one to eventually get over their angst anyways. One time, my wife was enraged at one of our kid’s teachers. And while the issue had merit, I did not think it was worth "going to battle" over. Well after "ragging" on me for about a week, I finally got as worked-up as she. So I descended upon the school… with a number of "political grenades". I caused alot of problems, and almost got the teacher fired. But today, my wife tells me that I handled it wrong. And she laments that we no longer have a relationship with that person. I guess I was supposed to clear every move with her :) It has nothing to do with a high threshold for joining in a battle, this example simply indicates the need to communicate action.
Response:
> <snip> But today, my wife tells me that I handled it wrong. And she laments. > that we no longer have a relationship with that person. I guess I was supposed > to clear every move with her > Me: My husband and I always expect to discuss something like this before > either of us acted on it. I’d be upset, too. > We address family issues as a couple. If it were something that was just in > our personal domain (like our own jobs), yes, we might make decisions without > consulting the other — although we tend to talk about it anyway, because we > are the other’s best friend and sounding board. But, we would both fully > expect to agree on a plan of action if there would be impact on the *family*.
I agree 100% with the principals you state here. And on the whole, I am probably better at adhering to them (than my wife). But consider the context of my situation. For about a week, I took a position on an issue with my wife… * That I agreed with her in principal. * That I did not think the issue was worth pursuing. * But that she was free to contact the school in some fashion (phone, letter, in-person) and make an issue of it herself. * (And my demeanor, when discussing the issue, was "calm, cool, and collected.") But during that same week, my wife… * Was not capable of "agreeing to disagree". * Brought the issue up every day… with a demeanor that was angry, intense, and filled with disgust. * Repeatedly ran down the same litany of criticisms against this teacher. * Was highly critical of me, for not echoing her sentiments (making me "the issue" as much as the teacher). * But never contacted the school herself. In my opinion, in this situation my actions were reasonable. The way I see it, to be critical of the way I handled this seems to imply: * In my marriage, I’m not really entitled to my own opinions. * That ultimately, I’m supposed to follow my wife’s thoughts/feelings in a lock step manner. Rather than respecting my opinion, my wife spent a week brow-beating me. Lighting a fire under me. What’s the old saying about letting "sleeping dogs lie?" Sometimes I think (in general) that my opinion is supposed to be a compromise between her opinion and my opinion. :)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> <snip> But today, my wife tells me that I handled it wrong. And she >laments. >> that we no longer have a relationship with that person. I guess I was >supposed >> to clear every move with her >> Me: My husband and I always expect to discuss something like this before >> either of us acted on it. I’d be upset, too. >> We address family issues as a couple. If it were something that was just >in >> our personal domain (like our own jobs), yes, we might make decisions >without >> consulting the other — although we tend to talk about it anyway, because >we >> are the other’s best friend and sounding board. But, we would both fully >> expect to agree on a plan of action if there would be impact on the >*family*. >I agree 100% with the principals you state here. And on the whole, I am >probably >better at adhering to them (than my wife). But consider the context of my >situation. For about a week, I took a position on an issue with my wife… > * That I agreed with her in principal. > * That I did not think the issue was worth pursuing. > * But that she was free to contact the school in some fashion (phone, >letter, > in-person) and make an issue of it herself. > * (And my demeanor, when discussing the issue, was "calm, cool, and >collected.") >But during that same week, my wife… > * Was not capable of "agreeing to disagree". > * Brought the issue up every day… with a demeanor that was angry, >intense, and > filled with disgust. > * Repeatedly ran down the same litany of criticisms against this teacher. > * Was highly critical of me, for not echoing her sentiments (making me >"the > issue" as much as the teacher). > * But never contacted the school herself. >In my opinion, in this situation my actions were reasonable. The way I see >it, to >be critical of the way I handled this seems to imply: > * In my marriage, I’m not really entitled to my own opinions. > * That ultimately, I’m supposed to follow my wife’s thoughts/feelings in a >lock > step manner. >Rather than respecting my opinion, my wife spent a week brow-beating me. >Lighting >a fire under me. What’s the old saying about letting "sleeping dogs lie?" >Sometimes I think (in general) that my opinion is supposed to be a compromise >between her opinion and my opinion. :)
I’d see it differently. Opinions are not *actions*. Totally different. IMO, you are entitled to your opinions. Your wife is entitled to think your opinions are wrong. Conversely, you are entitled to believe her opinions are wrong. But, actions that have an impact on the other should be negotiated. You can talk to one another. You can argue. But, (again, IMO) taking action that reflects on the couple/family should be agreed upon in advance. Sheila
Response:
Xandreux <Xandr…@msn.com> wrote: > > Do you refrain from criticizing? Do you hope for the best in how it > >turns out? Or is there an implied "I told you so?" > There was no criticism, and the conversation was low key, (although > emotional.)
OK. > > Did she really mean it? Does she really want you to lie to her? Or > >was this said in an emotional moment, > > like you said "what do you want me to do, lie to you?" and she said > >"if that’s what it takes, yes." > She meant it. She verifed that I understood her, and at some length. > Another reason why I believe she meant it is that her statements were > consistent with similar, although not as clearly stated statements of > hers from the past.
I hope someone else will give you a better answer. I really don’t "get" your wife.
Response:
"Richard" <midig…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41C8801C.9B399469@hotmail.com… > Ironically… everytime you disagree with her and thinks she is wrong… > she ALSO disagrees with you and thinks you are wrong. And she is > being JUST as unsupportive of you.
Exactly! So the question is where or how do people meet in the middle? Or who gets to have the final word on which disagreement? In this case the wife thinks that because the disagreement involves *her* family she should be the one to be supported no matter what the husband thinks. Amy
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Amy Lou wrote: > Richard remarked: >> Ironically… everytime you disagree with her >> and thinks she is wrong… she ALSO disagrees >> with you and thinks you are wrong. And she is >> being JUST as unsupportive of you. > Exactly! So the question is where or how do > people meet in the middle? Or who gets to have > the final word on which disagreement? In this > case the wife thinks that because the > disagreement involves *her* family she should > be the one to be supported no matter what the > husband thinks.
It can be argued that those emotionally furthest from any issues have the least skewed perception. (This is not guaranteed, of course.) The problem is _always_ with us: who gets the last word? In various jokes the husband gets the last words by saying "all right, dear, whatever you say". (It’s a good thing this is most true in jokes.) Some marriages are ground down by control issues whilst others merely flirt with them. I have been coming to believe that a couple needs to develop a means to form consensus if a long-term relationship is to survive; just "knuckling under" to avoid any/all confrontations is not good for long-term health. When one partner is more certain than the other that they are *right thinking*… well, I think you get the point. So perhaps the "last word" needs to be cycled back and forth to ensure that both partners get a chance to practice… (I sometimes think that, in terms of sexual drives, women get the last word… which, in order to show they DO, indeed, have control, that last work is most likely to be "No". It’s a good thing that I believe this is a gross exaggeration.) — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses. This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me
Response:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:45:37 GMT, "Amy Lou" <amylou…@bigpond.com> wrote: >"Richard" <midig…@hotmail.com> wrote in message >news:41C8801C.9B399469@hotmail.com… >> Ironically… everytime you disagree with her and thinks she is wrong… >> she ALSO disagrees with you and thinks you are wrong. And she is >> being JUST as unsupportive of you. >Exactly! So the question is where or how do people meet in the middle? Or >who gets to have the final word on which disagreement? In this case the wife >thinks that because the disagreement involves *her* family she should be the >one to be supported no matter what the husband thinks.
In the situation that’s been described, my opinion is that "support" could be as simple as, "Honey, I understand how upset and disappointed you are.", delivered with a big hug. If she’s expecting him to jump on the bandwagon of criticism and harsh words to her mother, then she’s out of line. Just my opinion. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless
Response:
Thanks everyone for your comments so far! Some general comments in reply to everything said so far… It’s true, my wife is into control and being right. The bad thing is that she doesn’t even know it, even though everyone in her extended family tell her she is! Even her children tease her about not being able to say she’s wrong. I’ve worsened it thru the years. I was raised to support and please women, so just went along with many things w/o (now I understand) sufficient input from me. (I’d voice my opinion, and if she ran over it and me, if it wasn’t a critical area I’d give her the field.) Now, it’s OK and good to be accomodating and agreeable. But, I see that I was setting up a pattern that now, 30 years later, I’m having to redo. It seems that my wife’s dignity and self-worth is a UNIT, an indivisible PACKAGE, in her mind. Either she’s a worthwhile individual, or she’s not. Black or white. In her mind, it seems as if the world (mainly her family) is trying to destroy her. And, they’re trying to destroy her by pointing out her errors. It is in my power also to try to get her to join the world of the fallible AND worthwhile! (Sorry. I know this sounds egotistical on my own part.) And, I can see that I can’t do this quickly. I can see that it will take years to rebuild. I can see that I must be affirming 10x more than I try to coax her into a more give-and-take mode. I have determined to gently and lovingly move us toward a more healthy relationship. I just want to be SURE that I don’t take actions based on false premises and for faulty reasons, (and especially not for selfish and self-serving reasons!). And, it’s for this reason that I sent out this email for some advice; for a sounding board. I’d love more comments. And, thanks so far…
Response:
Jack C Lipton wrote: > (I sometimes think that, in terms of sexual drives, > women get the last word… which, in order to show > they DO, indeed, have control, that last work is > most likely to be "No". It’s a good thing that I > believe this is a gross exaggeration.)
It’s not that way here — but then I had to wade through a lot of chaff before I found one of the good ones. – Ron ^*^
Response:
> >Exactly! So the question is where or how do people meet in the middle? Or > >who gets to have the final word on which disagreement? In this case the wife > >thinks that because the disagreement involves *her* family she should be the > >one to be supported no matter what the husband thinks. > In the situation that’s been described, my opinion is that "support" > could be as simple as, "Honey, I understand how upset and disappointed > you are.", delivered with a big hug. If she’s expecting him to jump > on the bandwagon of criticism and harsh words to her mother, then > she’s out of line. Just my opinion.
Your response suggests that these types of arguments do not occur in your household. Lucky you! :) In many of these arguments, there is a subtext that exists… which is about being affronted: * One spouse tells the other of some incident that occurred with either a family member, or a friend, or at a school meeting, etc. * And part of the fallout from this is… they feel slighted (or insulted or demeaned or put-upon or…) * At this point, the listening spouse may express disagreement – or may agree in principal (but may not see it as that big a deal). * The offended spouse then switches their focus… from the original story, to the perceived lack-of-support of the other spouse. ("How could you not…!?!?") There are times when it is appropriate to take on a spouse’s battle. Or join them in it. But there has to be a somewhat high treshhold for that to happen. (Remember the Michael Dukakis rape question in the 1988 Presidential Debate?) In my opinion, *most* interpersonnel conflicts do not come close to meeting such a standard. Especially if the offended spouse is one to eventually get over their angst anyways. One time, my wife was enraged at one of our kid’s teachers. And while the issue had merit, I did not think it was worth "going to battle" over. Well after "ragging" on me for about a week, I finally got as worked-up as she. So I descended upon the school… with a number of "political grenades". I caused alot of problems, and almost got the teacher fired. But today, my wife tells me that I handled it wrong. And she laments that we no longer have a relationship with that person. I guess I was supposed to clear every move with her :)
Response:
Richard wrote:
One time, my wife was enraged at one of our kid’s teachers. And while the issue had merit, I did not think it was worth "going to battle" over. Well after "ragging" on me for about a week, I finally got as worked-up as she. So I descended upon the school… with a number of "political grenades". I caused alot of problems, and almost got the teacher fired. But today, my wife tells me that I handled it wrong. And she laments that we no longer have a relationship with that person. I guess I was supposed to clear every move with her Me: My husband and I always expect to discuss something like this before either of us acted on it. I’d be upset, too. We address family issues as a couple. If it were something that was just in our personal domain (like our own jobs), yes, we might make decisions without consulting the other — although we tend to talk about it anyway, because we are the other’s best friend and sounding board. But, we would both fully expect to agree on a plan of action if there would be impact on the *family*. Like I said, I’d be ticked off, too. Sheila
Response:
Xandreux wrote: > It’s true, my wife is into control and being > right. The bad thing is that she doesn’t even > know it, even though everyone in her extended > family tell her she is! Even her children > tease her about not being able to say she’s wrong.
Well, it’s not like she’s not in control, so she must not have the problem! We *all* have blind spots, you know… and, fairly often, many of our most irritating aspects fit into them. > I’ve worsened it thru the years. I was raised > to support and please women, so just went along > with many things w/o (now I understand) > sufficient input from me. (I’d voice my > opinion, and if she ran over it and me, if it > wasn’t a critical area I’d give her the field.) > Now, it’s OK and good to be accomodating and > agreeable. But, I see that I was setting up a > pattern that now, 30 years later, I’m having to > redo.
BTDT and still kind of stuck, all due to inertia and that "sense of honor". In any relationship there’s likely to be *some* kind of competition for authority; I believe that healthier relationships are balanced in the ability to delegate to each other. > It seems that my wife’s dignity and self-worth is > a UNIT, an indivisible PACKAGE, in her mind. > Either she’s a worthwhile individual, or she’s > not. Black or white. In her mind, it seems as if > the world (mainly her family) is trying to destroy > her. And, they’re trying to destroy her by > pointing out her errors.
(nods) Yup. "But I’m a *good* person!" and so on. For some people it seems that acknowledging their fallibility will undermine their whole self-image. There’s the clinging to "rightness" which tends to avoid having to be a human being and evolve. Oh, yeah… evolution of personality is probably not allowed in religion either, is it? > It is in my power also to try to get her to join > the world of the fallible AND worthwhile! (Sorry. > I know this sounds egotistical on my own part.) > And, I can see that I can’t do this quickly. I > can see that it will take years to rebuild. I > can see that I must be affirming 10x more than I > try to coax her into a more give-and-take mode.
You are making a mistake. The only "power" you have, assuming she pays enough attention, is to act as a mirror and illuminate her behavior; any change will be *her* choice. Part of the problem I see is that there will be a resistance to any role less than "Empress of the Known Universe, Judge of All and Smiter of the Idiot Known as My Husband". (All right, so I’m working hard here to exaggerate.) > I have determined to gently and lovingly move > us toward a more healthy relationship. I just > want to be SURE that I don’t take actions based > on false premises and for faulty reasons, (and > especially not for selfish and self-serving > reasons!). And, it’s for this reason that I > sent out this email for some advice; for a > sounding board. I’d love more comments. And, > thanks so far…
Don’t knock Selfish or Self-Serving completely, BTW; consider how you can use her drives to get (and keep) her attention to the future. We *all* have a fair amount of self-interest; it is when satisfying it becomes the key thing sustaining our ego that frictions with others will arise. Self-interest, though, is pretty much the ONLY thing, though, that enables one to deal with the long term. Finding the right balance is key. There’s a problem, of course, when a person becomes too comfortable because they believe themselves to be self-satisfied, since it allows one to ignore others around them. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses. This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me
Response:
"Xandreux" <Xandr…@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1103656558.547617.137600@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I wonder how she’d have felt had her mother made >> the same judgement about her interest in marrying >> *you*. > Ironically, her parents liked me a lot, but didn’t want us to marry > when we did. (Too young. 30 years now. Been good marriage, with what > seems to be normal "bumps" along the way.) We got married anyway, and > her parents swallowed and went on with their life. I never felt > "negatived" by them. > My wife has commented on this irony; she opposed strenuously her > mother’s marriage, more by far then her mother opposed our marriage. > But, I don’t rember her comments other then remembering that they > seemed confusing! >> So… what does she agree with *you* on? > We’ve agreed on most things in our lives… religion, child-rearing, > politics, etc. But, in a few areas like this one, the differences are > real and emotional.
know what my rule is: when it comes to my wife’s family, as long as it doesn’t affect "us", my opinion is "whatever you want". I don’t have an opinion on what her family should or should not do. That being said, I will guard vehemently against family turmoil coming in our front door. Your situation seems a bit different, though – I can’t understand why your wife would be so against her mother marrying – who gives a shit? In my way of looking at things, adults can do what they wish. Neither my wife or I get too involved with other adult’s decisions.
Response:
Ironically… everytime you disagree with her and thinks she is wrong… she ALSO disagrees with you and thinks you are wrong. And she is being JUST as unsupportive of you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Xandreux wrote: > <snip> > Upon further discussion, she said that she didn’t feel supported > because I didn’t AGREE with her "take" on the situation. She very > clearly and explicitly told me that SUPPORT=AGREEMENT. She further > said that in these emotional situations, "If you don’t agree with me, > LIE to me!" > What to make of this? > My wife is a very loving and caring person. But, I can’t understand > her point. And, if I did "lie to her", seems this would eventually > have even worse consequences.
Response:
> Do you refrain from criticizing? Do you hope for the best in how it
turns out? Or is there an implied "I told you so?" There was no criticism, and the conversation was low key, (although emotional.) > Did she really mean it? Does she really want you to lie to her? Or
was this said in an emotional moment, > like you said "what do you want me to do, lie to you?" and she said
"if that’s what it takes, yes." She meant it. She verifed that I understood her, and at some length. Another reason why I believe she meant it is that her statements were consistent with similar, although not as clearly stated statements of hers from the past.
Response:
> I wonder how she’d have felt had her mother made > the same judgement about her interest in marrying > *you*.
Ironically, her parents liked me a lot, but didn’t want us to marry when we did. (Too young. 30 years now. Been good marriage, with what seems to be normal "bumps" along the way.) We got married anyway, and her parents swallowed and went on with their life. I never felt "negatived" by them. My wife has commented on this irony; she opposed strenuously her mother’s marriage, more by far then her mother opposed our marriage. But, I don’t rember her comments other then remembering that they seemed confusing! > So… what does she agree with *you* on?
We’ve agreed on most things in our lives… religion, child-rearing, politics, etc. But, in a few areas like this one, the differences are real and emotional.
Response:
Xandreux <Xandr…@msn.com> wrote: > There have been some situations, (not involving me), that my wife has > been involved in the last 20 years that were extremely emotional and > wrenching to her. (An example: her mother met and married a man > disliked by my wife, and my wife did her best "for the good of her > mother" to stop the marriage. I didn’t agree with my wife’s course of > action.) My wife and I were talking about these incidents, and she > told me, "You don’t support me, and that hurts me." > Upon further discussion, she said that she didn’t feel supported > because I didn’t AGREE with her "take" on the situation. She very > clearly and explicitly told me that SUPPORT=AGREEMENT.
That isn’t what I understand "support" to mean. As I’ve used it, it means "Maybe I wouldn’t make the same decision in your shoes, but it is your decision, so I won’t criticize you, and I hope it turns out well." Do you refrain from criticizing? Do you hope for the best in how it turns out? Or is there an implied "I told you so?" > She further > said that in these emotional situations, "If you don’t agree with me, > LIE to me!" > What to make of this?
Did she really mean it? Does she really want you to lie to her? Or was this said in an emotional moment, like you said "what do you want me to do, lie to you?" and she said "if that’s what it takes, yes." > My wife is a very loving and caring person. But, I can’t understand > her point. And, if I did "lie to her", seems this would eventually > have even worse consequences.
I agree. It sounds like a terrible idea.
Response:
Xandreux wrote: > There have been some situations, (not involving > me), that my wife has been involved in the last > 20 years that were extremely emotional and > wrenching to her. (An example: her mother met > and married a man disliked by my wife, and my > wife did her best "for the good of her mother" > to stop the marriage. I didn’t agree with my > wife’s course of action.) My wife and I were > talking about these incidents, and she told me, > "You don’t support me, and that hurts me."
(nods) I understand how this dynamic seems to come about. Part of it is that she does not have any doubt that her take on a situation is correct at an objective level. > Upon further discussion, she said that she > didn’t feel supported because I didn’t AGREE > with her "take" on the situation. She very > clearly and explicitly told me that > SUPPORT=AGREEMENT.
Been there, experienced that. It takes a bit to explain, clearly, that "support" is emotional support– i.e. "I won’t reject you even when I disagree with you". If she’s not interested in hearing a dissenting voice, well, you may want to consider getting out. I wonder how she’d have felt had her mother made the same judgement about her interest in marrying *you*. Sometimes it *may* help to question about how she would react had the shoe been on the other foot. > She further said that in > these emotional situations, "If you don’t > agree with me, LIE to me!"
Look, this sounds like she wants to have a whole set of self-deceptions reinforced; beyond the fact that this is compromising your OWN honor, this does nothing about the deeper issues. > What to make of this?
Sounds like she wants to be in control to a degree even my own wife has never aspired to; the problem, of course, is what usually happens: they don’t see *themselves* as having a problem. For your own sanity you may want to seek some kind of help or you’ll be sucked in like I’ve been. The problem is that support is support, tolerance is not approval and acceptance is not always agreement. So… what does she agree with *you* on? > My wife is a very loving and caring person.
Yes and no; it all matters on what *she* would give and how she judges things. We all hedge our decisions and place limits, but those with a penchant for control aren’t going to change for anyone else… though it’s usually strange how others are expected to change for *them*. (Note that I’ve got some drive to control and so I *also* am an idiot in expecting my wife to adapt to me.) > But, I can’t understand her point. And, if I > did "lie to her", seems this would eventually > have even worse consequences.
Extremely adverse consequences both for your own self-respect and the relationship. Once you start lying the problem is where to stop? — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses. This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me
Response:
There have been some situations, (not involving me), that my wife has been involved in the last 20 years that were extremely emotional and wrenching to her. (An example: her mother met and married a man disliked by my wife, and my wife did her best "for the good of her mother" to stop the marriage. I didn’t agree with my wife’s course of action.) My wife and I were talking about these incidents, and she told me, "You don’t support me, and that hurts me." Upon further discussion, she said that she didn’t feel supported because I didn’t AGREE with her "take" on the situation. She very clearly and explicitly told me that SUPPORT=AGREEMENT. She further said that in these emotional situations, "If you don’t agree with me, LIE to me!" What to make of this? My wife is a very loving and caring person. But, I can’t understand her point. And, if I did "lie to her", seems this would eventually have even worse consequences.