Question:

I asked the same thing.  "What is the outstanding bill so far"?  I was put on hold forever, and then the billing dept. said there was no bill compiled as of yet.  When I gave my donation, I asked if she wanted my "internet name" for Dan’s records and she said that everyone else was donating anonymously.  So, I followed suit.

I don’t like this way of doing it and it makes no sense that they are not making an audit trail.  I would like to see people let Dan know how much they’ve donated so that he can make sure that it was all properly credited to his account. Susan M Otis and Chester

Response:

accounted for on Dan’s bill as it stands.  It strikes me that Dan should receive and accounting from everyone who sent to the specialist so that he can make sure that it was appropriately applied to his account.

Absolutely! Dan, would you mind getting an itemized list of the donations received and posting it? Even if it’s just the ammounts, we can make sure everybody’s donation was included. — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

Absolutely! Dan, would you mind getting an itemized list of the donations received and posting it? Even if it’s just the ammounts, we can make sure everybody’s donation was included.

Victor – I think its better if everyone writes to Dan with their amounts. Otherwise, there may be lots of $20 donations for instance, and no one will know which one is theirs and how many there should be. The only reason I’m jazzed about it this time is that I didn’t like their accounting procedures with not using names for the donations.  They didn’t even take the name for the Visa card for goodness sake! Susan M Otis and Chester

Response:

Harriet Mahoney is currently at: VCA All Care Animal Referral Centre 18440 Amistad St Fountain Valley California 92708 Their phone number is 714 963 0909 Yowie

On the phone w/them right now…  I went ahead and doubled my donation. Harri needs all the help she can get!! —

Question:

Great big caveat…  The B.L.S. crystal ball is no better than anyone else’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm The Bureau of Labor Statistics (US) provides the outlook for accountants and auditors at the site above.  Here is an excerpt from the forcast portion: "Employment of accountants and auditors is expected to grow about as fast as the average for all occupations through the year 2010. In addition to openings resulting from growth, the need to replace accountants and auditors who retire or transfer to other occupations will produce numerous job openings annually in this large occupation." Lots of information for accounting students and others with an interest in the field. Tippy For every service there is a market.  For accounting services the market has been in decline since the mid 1970s. FWIW, two suggestions: (1) Read Boles’s "What Color is Your Parachute," or something like that. (2) Consider broadening your perspective, there are many more occupations than public accounting out there. YMMV Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Good point….And probably slow to adjust to changing times.  I don’t think they date their material well. Tippy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great big caveat…  The B.L.S. crystal ball is no better than anyone else’s. http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm The Bureau of Labor Statistics (US) provides the outlook for accountants and auditors at the site above.  Here is an excerpt from the forcast portion: "Employment of accountants and auditors is expected to grow about as fast as the average for all occupations through the year 2010. In addition to openings resulting from growth, the need to replace accountants and auditors who retire or transfer to other occupations will produce numerous job openings annually in this large occupation." Lots of information for accounting students and others with an interest in the field. Tippy For every service there is a market.  For accounting services the market has been in decline since the mid 1970s. FWIW, two suggestions: (1) Read Boles’s "What Color is Your Parachute," or something like that. (2) Consider broadening your perspective, there are many more occupations than public accounting out there. YMMV Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting …. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        * — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

This is my first post to this group. After reading your letter, I think you could improve your writing skills.  I saw several sentences in your post that could be improved.  Sometimes it’s not just the accounting skills, it’s everything.

Response:

Great big caveat…  The B.L.S. crystal ball is no better than anyone else’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm The Bureau of Labor Statistics (US) provides the outlook for accountants and auditors at the site above.  Here is an excerpt from the forcast portion: "Employment of accountants and auditors is expected to grow about as fast as the average for all occupations through the year 2010. In addition to openings resulting from growth, the need to replace accountants and auditors who retire or transfer to other occupations will produce numerous job openings annually in this large occupation." Lots of information for accounting students and others with an interest in the field. Tippy For every service there is a market.  For accounting services the market has been in decline since the mid 1970s. FWIW, two suggestions: (1) Read Boles’s "What Color is Your Parachute," or something like that. (2) Consider broadening your perspective, there are many more occupations than public accounting out there. YMMV Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting …. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

To get a job with a big 5 directly from graduation here in Egypt, you or a family member has to know the partner of the firm otherwise don’t bother sending CV’s unless your very confident about yourself that employers will actually beg you to work for them. The same thing applies to other mulitinational companies but to a lesser extent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm The Bureau of Labor Statistics (US) provides the outlook for accountants and auditors at the site above.  Here is an excerpt from the forcast portion: "Employment of accountants and auditors is expected to grow about as fast as the average for all occupations through the year 2010. In addition to openings resulting from growth, the need to replace accountants and auditors who retire or transfer to other occupations will produce numerous job openings annually in this large occupation." Lots of information for accounting students and others with an interest in the field. Tippy For every service there is a market.  For accounting services the market has been in decline since the mid 1970s. FWIW, two suggestions: (1) Read Boles’s "What Color is Your Parachute," or something like that. (2) Consider broadening your perspective, there are many more occupations than public accounting out there. YMMV Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting …. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Hi A. L. As roger has eluded to, you have a heap of theory training and no years of practical work in the Accounting industry If I have got it right so far, you will find that theory is a real pain because it wont apply to all situations, it has to be varied differently in a lot of cases, in the workplace there are heaps of unwritten rules, don’t get em wrong now, BUT you only get told what they are after you have got it wrong.  Getting the picture, not pretty is it??? Basically, you are a well trained graduate without experience, your pay wont be very high because you in reality know bugger all in the real world. This makes you and others angry so get it over with as quickly as you can, take a entry level job and get on with your career, take the low pay until you have 2 to 3 years of hard nut cracking, you will then be an Accountant with basic all round experience. Peter Australia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting ‘training vacancies’ with different firms throughout the UK, I have only achieved two interviews. In both cases, although having been short-listed to the last three applicants, I failed to secure a position. After brief enquiries, I find that my colleagues are sharing similar experiences, most applications not even meriting a response and not one having secured a post. Some are now considering employment outside of the finance sector or in positions that they are obviously over-qualified for. Personally, I am looking at my options abroad. Am I doing something wrong? Could I be doing something more? Why are UK accountancy firms dismissing applications so readily and when is this ‘recession’ likely to end? I welcome all comments, suggestions or constructive criticism and would especially appreciate any advice you care to offer. Recent events in the accounting/consulting industry (some of which people are discussing here) and the general economic trends (much more caution concerning corporate investments) have put big dents in the accounting/consulting businesses. Management give existing staff preference. Managers with accounting backgrounds who were in IT consultancy must move back to audit grunt work, etc. So realise that you are part of the business cycle. This may sober you up and give you a more seasoned start in professional life than joining the workforce during a full employment bull market phase. Example: my father graduated from Harvard law school and passed the bar exams in the early 1930s. He told me that he remained severely underemployed until after WW2. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": fissionable Kennedy class struggle CIA opus dei Shin Beth sentiero Libya

Response:

You shouldn’t mention the GCSE results unless the employer asks you about them. Employers don’t care about your secondary (high school) scores, thay are concerned with your bachelor degree GPA and whether the university is a top tier school, atleast that’s the case for top accounting firms. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting ‘training vacancies’ with different firms throughout the UK, I have only achieved two interviews. In both cases, although having been short-listed to the last three applicants, I failed to secure a position. After brief enquiries, I find that my colleagues are sharing similar experiences, most applications not even meriting a response and not one having secured a post. Some are now considering employment outside of the finance sector or in positions that they are obviously over-qualified for. Personally, I am looking at my options abroad. Am I doing something wrong? Could I be doing something more? Why are UK accountancy firms dismissing applications so readily and when is this ‘recession’ likely to end? I welcome all comments, suggestions or constructive criticism and would especially appreciate any advice you care to offer.

Response:

To get a job with a big 5 directly from graduation here in Egypt, you or a family member has to know the partner of the firm otherwise don’t bother sending CV’s unless your very confident about yourself that employers will actually beg you to work for them. The same thing applies to other mulitinational companies but to a lesser extent.

Following recent events, is Big ? magic beginning to wear off? I’ve worked in the UK for firms all sizes. In my days as a student most of us preferred a small or medium size firm to train in and then spent a couple of years in a large firm after qualifying. Trainees in small firms were soon getting experience of preparing balance sheets whilst those in large firms spent their early years just ticking and turning on large audits.When I qualified and joined a large firm I found there was some new experience but not as much as people tended to claim. If I were at the starting point today I’d probably go for training in a medium firm which is not out to merge with others in order to move up the league table. If I were a potential employer outside the practising side of the profession, I don’t reckon I would be impressed by somebody just because he had trained in the Big ?

Response:

Uh, there was a reason that was called the Great Depression, 1929 through 1938, more or less.

… So realise that you are part of the business cycle. This may sober you up and give you a more seasoned start in professional life than joining the workforce during a full employment bull market phase. Example: my father graduated from Harvard law school and passed the bar exams in the early 1930s. He told me that he remained severely underemployed until after WW2. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm The Bureau of Labor Statistics (US) provides the outlook for accountants and auditors at the site above.  Here is an excerpt from the forcast portion: "Employment of accountants and auditors is expected to grow about as fast as the average for all occupations through the year 2010. In addition to openings resulting from growth, the need to replace accountants and auditors who retire or transfer to other occupations will produce numerous job openings annually in this large occupation." Lots of information for accounting students and others with an interest in the field. Tippy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For every service there is a market.  For accounting services the market has been in decline since the mid 1970s. FWIW, two suggestions: (1) Read Boles’s "What Color is Your Parachute," or something like that. (2) Consider broadening your perspective, there are many more occupations than public accounting out there. YMMV Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting …. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

For every service there is a market.  For accounting services the market has been in decline since the mid 1970s. FWIW, two suggestions: (1) Read Boles’s "What Color is Your Parachute," or something like that. (2) Consider broadening your perspective, there are many more occupations than public accounting out there. YMMV Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting

…. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

snip Am I doing something wrong? Could I be doing something more? Why are UK accountancy firms dismissing applications so readily and when is this ‘recession’ likely to end? I welcome all comments, suggestions or constructive criticism and would especially appreciate any advice you care to offer.

Maybe you talk too much about what you have achieved so far, even act as if you are entitled to be considered. If those achievements are on your CV, don’t bring them up at an interview. Instead, show more interest in the work you will be doing. I started my career fifty years ago, when most UK accountancy students did not go to university. What irked us later when new lads started arriving from university, was that they acted as if they were above doing humdrum work which was an essential part of training. Even with your advantage of having some accounting theory in you ‘baggage’, you will find that things are often done differently in real life. Act as if you are keen to come face-to-face with reality. Ask about the mix of clients, ask whether you will get plenty of experience with manufacturing companies, etc. Roger

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting ‘training vacancies’ with different firms throughout the UK, I have only achieved two interviews. In both cases, although having been short-listed to the last three applicants, I failed to secure a position. After brief enquiries, I find that my colleagues are sharing similar experiences, most applications not even meriting a response and not one having secured a post. Some are now considering employment outside of the finance sector or in positions that they are obviously over-qualified for. Personally, I am looking at my options abroad. Am I doing something wrong? Could I be doing something more? Why are UK accountancy firms dismissing applications so readily and when is this ‘recession’ likely to end? I welcome all comments, suggestions or constructive criticism and would especially appreciate any advice you care to offer.

I can imagine how depressing this must be when you seem so well qualified. You don’t say what type of firm you have been applying to but I would firstly advise you to seek feedback as to why you were unsuccessful from the firms where you have been interviewed. Secondly, the correlation between A level results and subsequent performance in professional examinations has led to the use of A level results as an initial filter for applications, ignoring subsequent academic achievement. I advise my students (I am a university lecturer) to try to make their applications distinctive in some way to get round this. Thirdly, a commitment to an ACCA qualification may be putting you at a disadvantage with firms where ICAEW training is the norm. You don’t say what your longer term ambitions are: if you are looking for broader opportunities than a career in the profession, you might like to consider pursuing a CIMA qualification instead. HTH and good luck. — Laura (emulate St. George for email)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting ‘training vacancies’ with different firms throughout the UK, I have only achieved two interviews. In both cases, although having been short-listed to the last three applicants, I failed to secure a position. After brief enquiries, I find that my colleagues are sharing similar experiences, most applications not even meriting a response and not one having secured a post. Some are now considering employment outside of the finance sector or in positions that they are obviously over-qualified for. Personally, I am looking at my options abroad. Am I doing something wrong? Could I be doing something more? Why are UK accountancy firms dismissing applications so readily and when is this ‘recession’ likely to end? I welcome all comments, suggestions or constructive criticism and would especially appreciate any advice you care to offer.

Recent events in the accounting/consulting industry (some of which people are discussing here) and the general economic trends (much more caution concerning corporate investments) have put big dents in the accounting/consulting businesses. Management give existing staff preference. Managers with accounting backgrounds who were in IT consultancy must move back to audit grunt work, etc. So realise that you are part of the business cycle. This may sober you up and give you a more seasoned start in professional life than joining the workforce during a full employment bull market phase. Example: my father graduated from Harvard law school and passed the bar exams in the early 1930s. He told me that he remained severely underemployed until after WW2. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": fissionable Kennedy class struggle CIA opus dei Shin Beth sentiero Libya

Response:

Following successful completion of a Bachelor of Arts, honours degree, in Accounting & Computing, I am working towards my MSc in Finance & Law. I have excellent GCSE results and four A-Level passes including Mathematics. Additionally, I am currently preparing to take my Level 1 ACCA (Association of Chartered Certified Accountants) examinations this summer. Despite applying for over 30 accounting

Question:

Your board is an expense not a fixed asset please believe me?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why so many references to an aircraft?  I don’t think that is a good example given my post. Brett Is there an amount limit in the US that one can say something is an expense or fixed asset?  Say below $250 is an expense.  What conditions should I use to qualify an expense or fixed asset? Maybe a computer cpu, motherboard, office white board, office table are all expenses because they are under $250, yet last longer than a year as a fixed asset does. Thanks, Brett

Response:

It was just a question that I had, which had some relation to your post.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why so many references to an aircraft?  I don’t think that is a good example given my post. Brett Is there an amount limit in the US that one can say something is an expense or fixed asset?  Say below $250 is an expense.  What conditions should I use to qualify an expense or fixed asset? Maybe a computer cpu, motherboard, office white board, office table are all expenses because they are under $250, yet last longer than a year as a fixed asset does. Thanks, Brett

Response:

Hi John As you know appreciating assets remain on the books in the USA at cost.. The concept here is "don’t count your chickens before they hatch" <g Accountants call that the "cost principle"  The cost principle has roots in conservatism, losses related to assets are recorded as they happen but "possible" gains are not. For practical purposes as Cindy stated it is not a gain or loss until you sell or trade. We live in a world with a variable dollar.  It matters not to the tax man if you paid $34,000 in 1978 for an item and now the $$ value is $75,000. Well $75,000 today is not $34,000 in 1978 $$ so you will (maybe) be paying tax because a 2k+ $$ is worth $0.30. I would write it off.  The money is still shrinking in relation to the value of goods.  The non-cash tax benefit helps your cash flow.  I would investigate with a tax specialist to find, if you trade the plane, if there are tax "roll over" possibilities that could avoid a tax on the gain. If you sell the plane outright in the future you will pay the tax with less valuable $$ than today and you will have the cash from the sale to pay any tax. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excellent response, John.  Perhaps you can volunteer an opinion on a somewhat similar topic that I posted on this board a few weeks ago. It too, deals with fixed assets, but along a slightly different tangent. As an example, I purchased an airplane in 1978 (brand new) for $34,000.  Now in 2001, some 23 years later, that same aircraft has a fair market value of around $75,000. Granted, there have been some capital improvements along the way, but if you factor those out of the equation, the appraised value of the aircraft is around $60-65,000.  Still significantly higher than the cost basis. The increase in value is mostly due to a general, low level of supply of light aircraft in the 1980’s and early 1990’s because manufacturer’s left the market to avoid excessivily high liability exposures.  One major builder went bankrupt as a result.  Recently, legislation restricted product liability to aircraft manufacturers to 15 years (I think), so many companies have re-entered the market. The question is, "How would you treat this asset with regards to depreciation?"  Consider the fact that the salvage value exceeds the cost. Additionally, how can I predict what will happen in the future now that the problem that caused this situation has been resolved?  Only time will tell, I suppose.

<snip

Response:

John, again, thanks for the input.  Your points are valid, except I should add a couple of other wrinkles. First of all, I am not particularly interested in how we treat this for tax purposes.  I am writing them off on a 6-year ADS. The tax issues, as well as any potential capital gains are actually moot, since the aircraft is owned by a non-profit organization. I am more interested in the GAAP thinking concerning how to state these assets in our financial statements.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi John As you know appreciating assets remain on the books in the USA at cost.. The concept here is "don’t count your chickens before they hatch" <g Accountants call that the "cost principle"  The cost principle has roots in conservatism, losses related to assets are recorded as they happen but "possible" gains are not. For practical purposes as Cindy stated it is not a gain or loss until you sell or trade. We live in a world with a variable dollar.  It matters not to the tax man if you paid $34,000 in 1978 for an item and now the $$ value is $75,000. Well $75,000 today is not $34,000 in 1978 $$ so you will (maybe) be paying tax because a 2k+ $$ is worth $0.30. I would write it off.  The money is still shrinking in relation to the value of goods.  The non-cash tax benefit helps your cash flow.  I would investigate with a tax specialist to find, if you trade the plane, if there are tax "roll over" possibilities that could avoid a tax on the gain. If you sell the plane outright in the future you will pay the tax with less valuable $$ than today and you will have the cash from the sale to pay any tax. Excellent response, John.  Perhaps you can volunteer an opinion on a somewhat similar topic that I posted on this board a few weeks ago. It too, deals with fixed assets, but along a slightly different tangent. As an example, I purchased an airplane in 1978 (brand new) for $34,000.  Now in 2001, some 23 years later, that same aircraft has a fair market value of around $75,000. Granted, there have been some capital improvements along the way, but if you factor those out of the equation, the appraised value of the aircraft is around $60-65,000.  Still significantly higher than the cost basis. The increase in value is mostly due to a general, low level of supply of light aircraft in the 1980’s and early 1990’s because manufacturer’s left the market to avoid excessivily high liability exposures.  One major builder went bankrupt as a result.  Recently, legislation restricted product liability to aircraft manufacturers to 15 years (I think), so many companies have re-entered the market. The question is, "How would you treat this asset with regards to depreciation?"  Consider the fact that the salvage value exceeds the cost. Additionally, how can I predict what will happen in the future now that the problem that caused this situation has been resolved?  Only time will tell, I suppose. <snip

Response:

If you sell this asset then you will open a disposal account this willinclude the money received for the aircraft and the total depreciation that you have charged to expenses. The difference between the cost of the fixed asset when you bought it and what it is valued at now will as you say be a profit. This profit is then put back into your accounts as an income. If it was a loss then that woukld also be entered in your profit and loss account but as an expense. I guess you have no need to worry until you sell it! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excellent response, John.  Perhaps you can volunteer an opinion on a somewhat similar topic that I posted on this board a few weeks ago.  It too, deals with fixed assets, but along a slightly different tangent. As an example, I purchased an airplane in 1978 (brand new) for $34,000. Now in 2001, some 23 years later, that same aircraft has a fair market value of around $75,000. Granted, there have been some capital improvements along the way, but if you factor those out of the equation, the appraised value of the aircraft is around $60-65,000.  Still significantly higher than the cost basis. The increase in value is mostly due to a general, low level of supply of light aircraft in the 1980’s and early 1990’s because manufacturer’s left the market to avoid excessivily high liability exposures.  One major builder went bankrupt as a result.  Recently, legislation restricted product liability to aircraft manufacturers to 15 years (I think), so many companies have re-entered the market. The question is, "How would you treat this asset with regards to depreciation?"  Consider the fact that the salvage value exceeds the cost. Additionally, how can I predict what will happen in the future now that the problem that caused this situation has been resolved?  Only time will tell, I suppose. Assets represent resources owned (controlled) by the entity. There are some fundamental rules in accounting, "great principles" and the one in this case is the "matching principle".  Costs associated with revenue earned must be matched in the accounting period. Therefore almost all expenses are in fact assets but because they are used completely in the accounting period they are expensed at the time of purchase. Most of questions as to asset v expense are with "capital assets"  For accounting purposes (not income tax) a capital asset has a limited life that extends beyond the accounting period and is expensed, matched in a systematic and rational manner to the future revenues that it contrubutes toward. This rule is tempered for accounting purposes (not income tax) by the "materiality concept" and the "cost-benefit" constraint.  If the value of the item(s) is not large enought to affect decisions (material) or if the cost of recording the item out-weighs the value of the benifits it is expensed (subject to tax rules). The systematic and rational manner is important. Make some rules and stick to them. (systematic).  The cost of an individual items if it is to be part of a whole is not the cost of the item. If you buy computer parts and each item is under $200.00 but they are used to create a $10,000 computer system you must record the $10,000 computer system but if you buy 5 white boards for $1,000.00 and they are in fact sepeate items at $200 each they then may be expensed. (rational)(subject to tax rules) For taxation purposes some capital assets under certain dollar value may be expensed.  This is normally allowed by a class or catagory that is depreciated at 100%. Hi Brett I don’t know the correct answer to your question, but the way you word it, most of the items are expenses.  A new motherboard is considered a repair to an existing asset that is already being depreciated. <snip I purchased 5, 6 foot long chalkboards, heavy suckers.  These I had to claim as an asset and depreciate the cost.  Had I only purchased one of them, it would have been a standard office expense. TTUL Gary

Response:

Thanks for the input, Cindy.  I realize the capital gain implications, but I am more interested in whether or not I should depreciate this asset at all, or if so, at what rate?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you sell this asset then you will open a disposal account this willinclude the money received for the aircraft and the total depreciation that you have charged to expenses. The difference between the cost of the fixed asset when you bought it and what it is valued at now will as you say be a profit. This profit is then put back into your accounts as an income. If it was a loss then that woukld also be entered in your profit and loss account but as an expense. I guess you have no need to worry until you sell it! Excellent response, John.  Perhaps you can volunteer an opinion on a somewhat similar topic that I posted on this board a few weeks ago.  It too, deals with fixed assets, but along a slightly different tangent. As an example, I purchased an airplane in 1978 (brand new) for $34,000. Now in 2001, some 23 years later, that same aircraft has a fair market value of around $75,000. Granted, there have been some capital improvements along the way, but if you factor those out of the equation, the appraised value of the aircraft is around $60-65,000.  Still significantly higher than the cost basis. The increase in value is mostly due to a general, low level of supply of light aircraft in the 1980’s and early 1990’s because manufacturer’s left the market to avoid excessivily high liability exposures.  One major builder went bankrupt as a result.  Recently, legislation restricted product liability to aircraft manufacturers to 15 years (I think), so many companies have re-entered the market. The question is, "How would you treat this asset with regards to depreciation?"  Consider the fact that the salvage value exceeds the cost. Additionally, how can I predict what will happen in the future now that the problem that caused this situation has been resolved?  Only time will tell, I suppose. Assets represent resources owned (controlled) by the entity. There are some fundamental rules in accounting, "great principles" and the one in this case is the "matching principle".  Costs associated with revenue earned must be matched in the accounting period. Therefore almost all expenses are in fact assets but because they are used completely in the accounting period they are expensed at the time of purchase. Most of questions as to asset v expense are with "capital assets"  For accounting purposes (not income tax) a capital asset has a limited life that extends beyond the accounting period and is expensed, matched in a systematic and rational manner to the future revenues that it contrubutes toward. This rule is tempered for accounting purposes (not income tax) by the "materiality concept" and the "cost-benefit" constraint.  If the value of the item(s) is not large enought to affect decisions (material) or if the cost of recording the item out-weighs the value of the benifits it is expensed (subject to tax rules). The systematic and rational manner is important. Make some rules and stick to them. (systematic).  The cost of an individual items if it is to be part of a whole is not the cost of the item. If you buy computer parts and each item is under $200.00 but they are used to create a $10,000 computer system you must record the $10,000 computer system but if you buy 5 white boards for $1,000.00 and they are in fact sepeate items at $200 each they then may be expensed. (rational)(subject to tax rules) For taxation purposes some capital assets under certain dollar value may be expensed.  This is normally allowed by a class or catagory that is depreciated at 100%. Hi Brett I don’t know the correct answer to your question, but the way you word it, most of the items are expenses.  A new motherboard is considered a repair to an existing asset that is already being depreciated. <snip I purchased 5, 6 foot long chalkboards, heavy suckers.  These I had to claim as an asset and depreciate the cost.  Had I only purchased one of them, it would have been a standard office expense. TTUL Gary

Response:

Why so many references to an aircraft?  I don’t think that is a good example given my post. Brett

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there an amount limit in the US that one can say something is an expense or fixed asset?  Say below $250 is an expense.  What conditions should I use to qualify an expense or fixed asset? Maybe a computer cpu, motherboard, office white board, office table are all expenses because they are under $250, yet last longer than a year as a fixed asset does. Thanks, Brett

Response:

Assets represent resources owned (controlled) by the entity. There are some fundamental rules in accounting, "great principles" and the one in this case is the "matching principle".  Costs associated with revenue earned must be matched in the accounting period. Therefore almost all expenses are in fact assets but because they are used completely in the accounting period they are expensed at the time of purchase. Most of questions as to asset v expense are with "capital assets"  For accounting purposes (not income tax) a capital asset has a limited life that extends beyond the accounting period and is expensed, matched in a systematic and rational manner to the future revenues that it contrubutes toward. This rule is tempered for accounting purposes (not income tax) by the "materiality concept" and the "cost-benefit" constraint.  If the value of the item(s) is not large enought to affect decisions (material) or if the cost of recording the item out-weighs the value of the benifits it is expensed (subject to tax rules). The systematic and rational manner is important. Make some rules and stick to them. (systematic).  The cost of an individual items if it is to be part of a whole is not the cost of the item. If you buy computer parts and each item is under $200.00 but they are used to create a $10,000 computer system you must record the $10,000 computer system but if you buy 5 white boards for $1,000.00 and they are in fact sepeate items at $200 each they then may be expensed. (rational)(subject to tax rules) For taxation purposes some capital assets under certain dollar value may be expensed.  This is normally allowed by a class or catagory that is depreciated at 100%. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Brett I don’t know the correct answer to your question, but the way you word it, most of the items are expenses.  A new motherboard is considered a repair to an existing asset that is already being depreciated. <snip I purchased 5, 6 foot long chalkboards, heavy suckers.  These I had to claim as an asset and depreciate the cost.  Had I only purchased one of them, it would have been a standard office expense. TTUL Gary

Response:

Excellent response, John.  Perhaps you can volunteer an opinion on a somewhat similar topic that I posted on this board a few weeks ago.  It too, deals with fixed assets, but along a slightly different tangent. As an example, I purchased an airplane in 1978 (brand new) for $34,000.  Now in 2001, some 23 years later, that same aircraft has a fair market value of around $75,000. Granted, there have been some capital improvements along the way, but if you factor those out of the equation, the appraised value of the aircraft is around $60-65,000.  Still significantly higher than the cost basis. The increase in value is mostly due to a general, low level of supply of light aircraft in the 1980’s and early 1990’s because manufacturer’s left the market to avoid excessivily high liability exposures.  One major builder went bankrupt as a result.  Recently, legislation restricted product liability to aircraft manufacturers to 15 years (I think), so many companies have re-entered the market. The question is, "How would you treat this asset with regards to depreciation?"  Consider the fact that the salvage value exceeds the cost. Additionally, how can I predict what will happen in the future now that the problem that caused this situation has been resolved?  Only time will tell, I suppose.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Assets represent resources owned (controlled) by the entity. There are some fundamental rules in accounting, "great principles" and the one in this case is the "matching principle".  Costs associated with revenue earned must be matched in the accounting period. Therefore almost all expenses are in fact assets but because they are used completely in the accounting period they are expensed at the time of purchase. Most of questions as to asset v expense are with "capital assets"  For accounting purposes (not income tax) a capital asset has a limited life that extends beyond the accounting period and is expensed, matched in a systematic and rational manner to the future revenues that it contrubutes toward. This rule is tempered for accounting purposes (not income tax) by the "materiality concept" and the "cost-benefit" constraint.  If the value of the item(s) is not large enought to affect decisions (material) or if the cost of recording the item out-weighs the value of the benifits it is expensed (subject to tax rules). The systematic and rational manner is important. Make some rules and stick to them. (systematic).  The cost of an individual items if it is to be part of a whole is not the cost of the item. If you buy computer parts and each item is under $200.00 but they are used to create a $10,000 computer system you must record the $10,000 computer system but if you buy 5 white boards for $1,000.00 and they are in fact sepeate items at $200 each they then may be expensed. (rational)(subject to tax rules) For taxation purposes some capital assets under certain dollar value may be expensed.  This is normally allowed by a class or catagory that is depreciated at 100%. Hi Brett I don’t know the correct answer to your question, but the way you word it, most of the items are expenses.  A new motherboard is considered a repair to an existing asset that is already being depreciated. <snip I purchased 5, 6 foot long chalkboards, heavy suckers.  These I had to claim as an asset and depreciate the cost.  Had I only purchased one of them, it would have been a standard office expense. TTUL Gary

Response:

Is there an amount limit in the US that one can say something is an expense or fixed asset?  Say below $250 is an expense.  What conditions should I use to qualify an expense or fixed asset? Maybe a computer cpu, motherboard, office white board, office table are all expenses because they are under $250, yet last longer than a year as a fixed asset does. Thanks, Brett

Response:

I thought the answers were given in response to your earlier post! — Ken Russell Sydney

Is there an amount limit in the US that one can say something is an expense or fixed asset?  Say below $250 is an expense.  What conditions should I use to qualify an expense or fixed asset? Maybe a computer cpu, motherboard, office white board, office table are all expenses because they are under $250, yet last longer than a year as a fixed asset does. Thanks, Brett

Response:

Hi Brett I don’t know the correct answer to your question, but the way you word it, most of the items are expenses.  A new motherboard is considered a repair to an existing asset that is already being depreciated. The computer system (assembled and working) when you started your business was a capital expenditure, an asset with a definitive lifespan.  If you replace a component within that asset it is simply an equipment repair. This may sound rediculous, but if you replace a tire on a company owned vehicle, it is considered a repair, even if that vehicle happens to be a multi-million dollar machine and the tires cost in excess of 5 grand each, it’s still a repair to an existing depreciable asset. Now the accountants can pounce on me for that one, hi hi….. Naturally, all consumables used in the office are expensed, unless you buy them in vast quantities that cannot be consumed in a reasonable time.  As an example, the manufacturer of a particular product we used and loved was closing down his business.  Before closing we contracted with them to run as many of this product as he could with the raw materials he had available.  The finished product filled an entire 3 story warehouse.  Even though it was a consumable, it became a capital expenditure and an inventoried item as well until the stock was depleted. I purchased 5, 6 foot long chalkboards, heavy suckers.  These I had to claim as an asset and depreciate the cost.  Had I only purchased one of them, it would have been a standard office expense. TTUL Gary

Response:

Question:

 For better or for worse, I kept the sunfire.  I had no choice.  GMAC has ruined my credit rating with several of their accounting mistakes.  GMAC doesn’t care about this either and has done nothing to correct the problem.  My salesman said he has seen this before and had a +30 on his credit rating too that they refused to fix. After spending thousands of dollars on a GTP lease, GMAC originally refused my sunfire lease.  The only reason I got the lease was that the dealership stood up for me as a valued good customer. — Rob …going my way?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did ya look at the Monte Carlo? From your complaints, You might like the Monte… Grand Prix GTP (GPT?) two door has more HP and cost more greenbacks but is comparable in inside room, etc. Good luck with your choice. Meat The sunroof reduces this even more Well, it is a smaller car, right?  You moved from a larger car to a smaller one, and made the change immediately.  So you see an "exaggerated" comparison psychological effect. The brake pedal is incredibly sensetive and has little travel I wish more cars were like that.  I like to rest my foot on the heel and just rock the toes forward to slow down. That is more easeful than having a less sensitive brake where I have to stomp forward with the whole leg in order to get braking action. The lumbar adjustment is really awkward From driving the Infiniti Q30, I have to agree.  I had driven recently to Canada and back, and there was a small but significant difference in comfort between the Infiniti and the Cavalier (essentially the same as your Sunfire).  But I use the Cav mostly for commuting or errands, so its purposes are different. If I were to use the Cav as a an SUV for the soccer team, well, I’d be unhappy with some aspects. The power window buttons are in a bad location, I wish they were on the door I like how the window buttons are designed in a "his/her" style in the center console area.  Both the driver and passenger have access to the main set of window buttons and the rear-seat "kid safety" lockout button. Also, at night, the doors remain dark because there is no illuminated window button there.  The illuminated window buttons in the center keep the illumination out of your field of vision, but remain easy to find without having to take your eyes off the road. I find it more convenient to have the buttons there and so does my passenger. The cup holders are in a bad spot. So far forward and blocks the climate controls. A tall water bottle does reach high enough to block the temperature range adjustment, but the fan speed and other adjustments aren’t blocked. The air vents are ultra cheap.  They do not block airflow well when closed! Neither does the Infiniti Q30.  I can still hear air swishing through the closed shutters in the Infiniti. Tomorrow, I may take it back.  The dealer isn’t going to like this at all I know, since they ordered aftermarket rims to put on next week.   Let the shit hit the fan!     Rob

Response:

Did ya look at the Monte Carlo? From your complaints, You might like the Monte… Grand Prix GTP (GPT?) two door has more HP and cost more greenbacks but is comparable in inside room, etc. Good luck with your choice. Meat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sunroof reduces this even more Well, it is a smaller car, right?  You moved from a larger car to a smaller one, and made the change immediately.  So you see an "exaggerated" comparison psychological effect. The brake pedal is incredibly sensetive and has little travel I wish more cars were like that.  I like to rest my foot on the heel and just rock the toes forward to slow down. That is more easeful than having a less sensitive brake where I have to stomp forward with the whole leg in order to get braking action. The lumbar adjustment is really awkward From driving the Infiniti Q30, I have to agree.  I had driven recently to Canada and back, and there was a small but significant difference in comfort between the Infiniti and the Cavalier (essentially the same as your Sunfire).  But I use the Cav mostly for commuting or errands, so its purposes are different. If I were to use the Cav as a an SUV for the soccer team, well, I’d be unhappy with some aspects. The power window buttons are in a bad location, I wish they were on the door I like how the window buttons are designed in a "his/her" style in the center console area.  Both the driver and passenger have access to the main set of window buttons and the rear-seat "kid safety" lockout button. Also, at night, the doors remain dark because there is no illuminated window button there.  The illuminated window buttons in the center keep the illumination out of your field of vision, but remain easy to find without having to take your eyes off the road. I find it more convenient to have the buttons there and so does my passenger. The cup holders are in a bad spot. So far forward and blocks the climate controls. A tall water bottle does reach high enough to block the temperature range adjustment, but the fan speed and other adjustments aren’t blocked. The air vents are ultra cheap.  They do not block airflow well when closed! Neither does the Infiniti Q30.  I can still hear air swishing through the closed shutters in the Infiniti. Tomorrow, I may take it back.  The dealer isn’t going to like this at all I know, since they ordered aftermarket rims to put on next week.   Let the shit hit the fan!     Rob

Response:

The sunroof reduces this even more

Well, it is a smaller car, right?  You moved from a larger car to a smaller one, and made the change immediately.  So you see an "exaggerated" comparison psychological effect. The brake pedal is incredibly sensetive and has little travel

I wish more cars were like that.  I like to rest my foot on the heel and just rock the toes forward to slow down. That is more easeful than having a less sensitive brake where I have to stomp forward with the whole leg in order to get braking action. The lumbar adjustment is really awkward

From driving the Infiniti Q30, I have to agree.  I had driven recently to Canada and back, and there was a small but significant difference in comfort between the Infiniti and the Cavalier (essentially the same as your Sunfire).  But I use the Cav mostly for commuting or errands, so its purposes are different. If I were to use the Cav as a an SUV for the soccer team, well, I’d be unhappy with some aspects. The power window buttons are in a bad location, I wish they were on the door

I like how the window buttons are designed in a "his/her" style in the center console area.  Both the driver and passenger have access to the main set of window buttons and the rear-seat "kid safety" lockout button.   Also, at night, the doors remain dark because there is no illuminated window button there.  The illuminated window buttons in the center keep the illumination out of your field of vision, but remain easy to find without having to take your eyes off the road. I find it more convenient to have the buttons there and so does my passenger. The cup holders are in a bad spot. So far forward and blocks the climate controls.

A tall water bottle does reach high enough to block the temperature range adjustment, but the fan speed and other adjustments aren’t blocked. The air vents are ultra cheap.  They do not block airflow well when closed!

Neither does the Infiniti Q30.  I can still hear air swishing through the closed shutters in the Infiniti. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tomorrow, I may take it back.  The dealer isn’t going to like this at all I know, since they ordered aftermarket rims to put on next week.   Let the shit hit the fan!     Rob

Response:

Rob, Just a couple of words, that.. perhaps others are thinking. If you put it into perspective this way, you’ll understand. You moved from a BMW to a VW Rabbit. Plain and simple..   The GTP is a higher-end GM Vehicle, and you’ve moved to GM’s budjet pocket-rocket. I’m sorry you feel this way. I own a 98 cavalier Z24, first car ever that I’ve bought (brand new too when I got it) and all I can say is it’s the last GM car I’ll ever own. From sales to support, GM doesn’t cut it for me. I’m in canada too.. if you feel like chatting, email me — Thanks man Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just traded away my 1999 Grand Prix GTP with 26,000kms.  Although I liked the car alot, I was almost near the end of the lease and am tired of the high payments.  I have a brand new sunfire gt in the driveway with less than 100km on it.  I want to like this car, I really do, but several things bother me. Headroom is bad, especially in the back seating area.  The sunroof reduces this even more The brake pedal is incredibly sensetive and has little travel The lumbar adjustment is really awkward Shifting in low gears is difficult The power window buttons are in a bad location, I wish they were on the door The cup holders are in a bad spot. So far forward and blocks the climate controls. The air vents are ultra cheap.  They do not block airflow well when closed! No seat height adjustment, see lack of headroom concern. The seats… They just are not comfortable I keep getting nasty static shocks from the door when I exit the car. Plates are $250/year more than my GTP!!  CRAZY! Why did I lease the car?  0.9% financing for 4 years and a payment that is over $250/month cheaper than my GTP.  The better mileage and ability to use regular grade gas now are plusses as well.  Of course I know this car is half the car my GTP was, but it should still maintain a certain level of quality. That aside, everyone and their dog has a Cavalier/Sunfire.  Resale and trade in value will probably be terrible I imagine. Is this all worth it, to save a few bucks?  I really don’t know. Unfortunately GM needs a car like the Protoge5, which I think they will have in 2003 with their "Vibe". Tonight I am really feeling like I made a mistake getting this vehicle.  The bad part is that I almost had to take it because someone else was about to buy it (not a sales ploy, really true). There are only a few 2001 models left and only those have the 0.9% rate. The 2002 are about 5.9% I think.  That would translate into an extra $100/month almost. Tomorrow, I may take it back.  The dealer isn’t going to like this at all I know, since they ordered aftermarket rims to put on next week.   Let the shit hit the fan! I’m in Canada btw, so it’s considerably more expensive than US pricing.

Response:

Yes, the headroom is not great in the back on the Sunfires. Fortunately I don’t have to sit in the back in mine, being over 6 feet tall For the comfort up front, though, I find it pretty good. You’ll probably get used to the brake pedal. You think that’s sensitive, you should see the 95 Grand Am my parents have, after driving my Sunfire for a while, when I’ve driven that car I’ve been lurching to a stop until I readjust. Could be it’s a bit different on the newer Sunfires, though. Mine’s an automatic, it doesn’t have the lumbar adjustment or power windows, and I don’t try to close off the vents, so I can’t comment on any of those. Looks like you’re in Saskatchewan, right? I don’t think SGI takes differences in injury claims rates into account for the insurance rates, so it’d have to be either frequency of claims or repair costs. Probably the former, lots of teenagers driving them and crashing them a lot.. — Robert Hancock      Saskatoon, SK, Canada Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just traded away my 1999 Grand Prix GTP with 26,000kms.  Although I liked the car alot, I was almost near the end of the lease and am tired of the high payments.  I have a brand new sunfire gt in the driveway with less than 100km on it.  I want to like this car, I really do, but several things bother me. Headroom is bad, especially in the back seating area.  The sunroof reduces this even more The brake pedal is incredibly sensetive and has little travel The lumbar adjustment is really awkward Shifting in low gears is difficult The power window buttons are in a bad location, I wish they were on the door The cup holders are in a bad spot. So far forward and blocks the climate controls. The air vents are ultra cheap.  They do not block airflow well when closed! No seat height adjustment, see lack of headroom concern. The seats… They just are not comfortable I keep getting nasty static shocks from the door when I exit the car. Plates are $250/year more than my GTP!!  CRAZY! Why did I lease the car?  0.9% financing for 4 years and a payment that is over $250/month cheaper than my GTP.  The better mileage and ability to use regular grade gas now are plusses as well.  Of course I know this car is half the car my GTP was, but it should still maintain a certain level of quality.  That aside, everyone and their dog has a Cavalier/Sunfire.  Resale and trade in value will probably be terrible I imagine. Is this all worth it, to save a few bucks?  I really don’t know. Unfortunately GM needs a car like the Protoge5, which I think they will have in 2003 with their "Vibe". Tonight I am really feeling like I made a mistake getting this vehicle. The bad part is that I almost had to take it because someone else was about to buy it (not a sales ploy, really true). There are only a few 2001 models left and only those have the 0.9% rate. The 2002 are about 5.9% I think.  That would translate into an extra $100/month almost. Tomorrow, I may take it back.  The dealer isn’t going to like this at all I know, since they ordered aftermarket rims to put on next week.   Let the shit hit the fan! I’m in Canada btw, so it’s considerably more expensive than US pricing. — Rob …going my way?

Response:

 I just traded away my 1999 Grand Prix GTP with 26,000kms.  Although I liked the car alot, I was almost near the end of the lease and am tired of the high payments.  I have a brand new sunfire gt in the driveway with less than 100km on it.  I want to like this car, I really do, but several things bother me. Headroom is bad, especially in the back seating area.  The sunroof reduces this even more The brake pedal is incredibly sensetive and has little travel The lumbar adjustment is really awkward Shifting in low gears is difficult The power window buttons are in a bad location, I wish they were on the door The cup holders are in a bad spot. So far forward and blocks the climate controls. The air vents are ultra cheap.  They do not block airflow well when closed! No seat height adjustment, see lack of headroom concern. The seats… They just are not comfortable I keep getting nasty static shocks from the door when I exit the car. Plates are $250/year more than my GTP!!  CRAZY! Why did I lease the car?  0.9% financing for 4 years and a payment that is over $250/month cheaper than my GTP.  The better mileage and ability to use regular grade gas now are plusses as well.  Of course I know this car is half the car my GTP was, but it should still maintain a certain level of quality.  That aside, everyone and their dog has a Cavalier/Sunfire.  Resale and trade in value will probably be terrible I imagine. Is this all worth it, to save a few bucks?  I really don’t know. Unfortunately GM needs a car like the Protoge5, which I think they will have in 2003 with their "Vibe". Tonight I am really feeling like I made a mistake getting this vehicle.  The bad part is that I almost had to take it because someone else was about to buy it (not a sales ploy, really true). There are only a few 2001 models left and only those have the 0.9% rate. The 2002 are about 5.9% I think.  That would translate into an extra $100/month almost. Tomorrow, I may take it back.  The dealer isn’t going to like this at all I know, since they ordered aftermarket rims to put on next week.   Let the shit hit the fan! I’m in Canada btw, so it’s considerably more expensive than US pricing. — Rob …going my way?

Response:

Question:

… ….  Academics who mistakenly wind up in K12 quit within a few years once they realize that the reality does not wander anywhere near the ideal. ….  I have a PhD, two accountants, a paralegal, an insurance exec and a lawyer crash and burn within a few semesters– a few within one semester.  All of them were intelligent people with good intentions but not an f-ing clue about how to run a classroom, relate to K12 age children, or plan an effective lesson. The 60 hour weeks and the low pay make it difficult, if not impossible, to advance your own education, formal or otherwise.  I am beginning my seventh year in the classroom.  

…. I did not catch the original post in this thread.  As an academic who has considered K-12 teaching I have also found that there is considerable opposition from those already in the system.  I understand why this is there (I think)–most of it is based on past experience; they may have seen Ph.D.’s try K-12 teaching and not succeed in the past. But there is definitely a hurdle to overcome if you try to make the transition from college teaching to K-12 teaching (besides the usual huge hurdles that first-time teachers face)–many will be assuming that you don’t have what it takes. — Brian G. Moore, School of Science, Penn State Erie–The Behrend College

Response:

 I’m fine with that for the most part. I’ve simply grown tired of the assumption a few folks hold that subject area knowledge is all that is required. Having the knowledge is half way there, and it’s a required half way. But while knowledge without teaching skill can do some good,

It can do harm as well. teaching skill without knowledge is irrelevant.

That can do some good in some cases and harm in others as well. So, the issue isn’t teaching skill vs. knowledge, but rather, among those of us who have the knowledge, can we teach ? Because if we don’t have the knowledge, I’m not sure we should be teaching, even if we have the greatest teaching knowledge and technique in the universe.

What do you recommend at elementary? How would you change preparation for elementary teachers?

Response:

        I believe that the more common term, teacher’s aide, is better as it gets around the college TA confusion. A teacher’s aide is a very low-paid helper for the teachers – around $6 to 7/hr. MacDonald’s pays better, starting at $7/hr + burgers!   No actually, this could possibly vary from state to state but here in Michigan there is no requirement as to who can be a teaching assistant other than they have to be breathing.   And again NO, we have them in our classrooms from K-12.  SURPRISE!!!!

– Gary Schnabl (Southwest) Detroit — 2 miles NORTH of Canada

Response:

 It is not the control of the classroom, but the control of what children will be allowed to learn, and how they will be advanced.  The educationists want to use grades and credits, not understanding and the ability to put it all together and use it.  They consider it a sin that some can learn better and quicker than others, and do their best to punish this sin.

I thought we were talking about college ? College students aren’t children, but young adults. And in college, I have academic control over my classroom. Alberto.

Response:

 It is not the control of the classroom, but the control of what children will be allowed to learn, and how they will be advanced.  The educationists want to use grades and credits, not understanding and the ability to put it all together and use it.  They consider it a sin that some can learn better and quicker than others, and do their best to punish this sin. I thought we were talking about college ? College students aren’t children, but young adults. And in college, I have academic control over my classroom. Alberto.

I was replying to the posting, which was not concerned with college teaching, but elementary and secondary teaching. However, at the present time, much of this is also going on at the college level.  In few colleges does a student who bypasses unnecessary courses have a way of receiving credit for those courses, and students deliberately take weak courses for grades and easy credits. — This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I know a good number of people who would love to retire from the 60+ hours, (24/7) work week of the high tech industry, to the quaint and comparitively slow pace of a classroom.  At anyrate, it doesn’t matter becasue even if there were an endless stream of volunteers, the teacher’s unions would never permit it.  After all, you’ve got to realize this education scam isn’t about education ..it’s about controlof the classroom. And here’s the fantasy. A classroom is not a slow thing unless the teacher him or herself is slow – and then, that individual will be slow in industry too, and who wants that kind of people ? To teach at college degree, with a few exceptions, you need to have the knowledge of a Ph.D. And where are all those people that we can’t find them ?

I just have to laugh here. That poster has never spent a Friday working with 40 eight year olds, 30 nine year olds and 100 six year olds (40 of whom don’t speak English). My Fridays alone — we won’t even count M, T, W & Th — would drive most techies back to their computers in a hurry. Slow paced? Less than 60 hours? Not 24/7? In his *dreams* maybe.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Teaching certificates are not required or expected to teach college students.  They are only part of the requirements for teaching in elementary or secondary schools, and usually are not required by private schools.  I personally question whether they should be considered at all.  I would prefer people who understand subject matter, and who either have never had any education courses, or who think they are of negative value. Your comments show that you don’t understand what K12 teaching is.   This work offers no incentives to attract or keep academics. Complaining that academics don’t choose K12 teaching is like complaining that dentists apply for jobs laying bricks.  This career has little appeal to people who like to read, study, research and publish, simply because they will neither be allowed time for these things, support for these things, or any compensation for these things.  Academics who mistakenly wind up in K12 quit within a few years once they realize that the reality does not wander anywhere near the ideal. The pay is drastically lower than in other fields requiring comparable years of study.  Academics are usually miserable in K12 because of the poor working conditions, the low prestige, the mishandling they’re subjected to by administration and state officials, and the psychopathology of the students.  I have a PhD, two accountants, a paralegal, an insurance exec and a lawyer crash and burn within a few semesters– a few within one semester.  All of them were intelligent people with good intentions but not an f-ing clue about how to run a classroom, relate to K12 age children, or plan an effective lesson.

I believe this holds true for some teaching at the college level too. That is, I experienced some pretty lousy teaching at the college/university level. Being a subject area God is *NO* guarantee that a person can teach at *any* level.

Response:

Teaching certificates are not required or expected to teach college students.  They are only part of the requirements for teaching in elementary or secondary schools, and usually are not required by private schools.  I personally question whether they should be considered at all.  I would prefer people who understand subject matter, and who either have never had any education courses, or who think they are of negative value.

Your comments show that you don’t understand what K12 teaching is.   This work offers no incentives to attract or keep academics. Complaining that academics don’t choose K12 teaching is like complaining that dentists apply for jobs laying bricks.  This career has little appeal to people who like to read, study, research and publish, simply because they will neither be allowed time for these things, support for these things, or any compensation for these things.  Academics who mistakenly wind up in K12 quit within a few years once they realize that the reality does not wander anywhere near the ideal. The pay is drastically lower than in other fields requiring comparable years of study.  Academics are usually miserable in K12 because of the poor working conditions, the low prestige, the mishandling they’re subjected to by administration and state officials, and the psychopathology of the students.  I have a PhD, two accountants, a paralegal, an insurance exec and a lawyer crash and burn within a few semesters– a few within one semester.  All of them were intelligent people with good intentions but not an f-ing clue about how to run a classroom, relate to K12 age children, or plan an effective lesson. In the K12 trenches, your ideal teacher candidate is far more often than not the sacrificial lamb of a bunch of you silly, self-important, out of touch, ivory-assed bozos who would never get your hands dirty on an actual educational problem. The 60 hour weeks and the low pay make it difficult, if not impossible, to advance your own education, formal or otherwise.  I am beginning my seventh year in the classroom.  I earned two BAs in languages and a Master’s in Education in six years, but I can’t afford– financially or timewise–  to take more than two courses a year towards a postdoctorate degree.  For years I have wanted to be trained in a technology-related skill, such as web publishing, or graphic design.  Because I sponsor student publications, all these skills are directly related to my work.  I have yet to be offered one solitary dollar to support my training that I did not get from a grant I applied for entirely on my own. The professional development opportunities are largely limited to being lectured about how poorly you do your job.  The incentives for continuing in this line of work are so poor that I literally don’t know one teacher who stays because she *wants* to stay.  They are either too old to change careers, working between babies, or working to change careers.  I know plenty of teachers who are running businesses on the side, coaching so they can transition to a junior college sports position, or using their summers to earn a degree in an unrelated field.  And of the eight Gen-X teachers I started with at my first school seven years ago, only two of us are still teaching. So you can cast all the blame on teachers you want.  In many schools, the job itself is total shit, and the lack of applicants speaks for itself.  This country built these schools and made of them exactly what they are.  You are lucky anyone teaches in them at all. J. Z. Al-Huriyeh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I just have to laugh here. That poster has never spent a Friday working with 40 eight year olds, 30 nine year olds and 100 six year olds (40 of whom don’t speak English). My Fridays alone — we won’t even count M, T, W & Th — would drive most techies back to their computers in a hurry. Slow paced? Less than 60 hours? Not 24/7? In his *dreams* maybe. However… Have you ever had to put up a whole nighter ? I had, more than once. Do you work on saturdays and sundays ? I do, more often than I care for. Do you put up eighteen hour work days ? I do, every once in a while. Does your lifemate complain that you get home late night far too often, that your work looks more important than your private life ? Mine did, more than once. High tech can be intense too, you know! Alberto.

Not saying it isn’t. My DH regularly puts in long days, etc. However, that doesn’t mean that teaching isn’t one of the most stressful jobs out there. I doubt many retired adults would be willing to put up with the stress teachers suffer, for a job which probably pays less than their pension/social security/retirement fund. A starting teacher makes less than $30,000/yr. A paraprofessional (teacher’s aide) makes under $20,000/yr. — Donna Devore Metler www.math.ttu.edu/~dmettler www.funfelt.com/donna Asst. Director, Educational Programming, Peabody Place Museum Faculty, Academy of the Performing Arts, early childhood and applied music Children’s educational advocate

Response:

 I’m fine with that for the most part. I’ve simply grown tired of the assumption a few folks hold that subject area knowledge is all that is required.

Having the knowledge is half way there, and it’s a required half way. But while knowledge without teaching skill can do some good, teaching skill without knowledge is irrelevant. So, the issue isn’t teaching skill vs. knowledge, but rather, among those of us who have the knowledge, can we teach ? Because if we don’t have the knowledge, I’m not sure we should be teaching, even if we have the greatest teaching knowledge and technique in the universe. Alberto.

Response:

 I was replying to the posting, which was not concerned with college teaching, but elementary and secondary teaching.

I haven’t seen people using TAs at elementary and secondary level in this area, but I may be wrong. However, at the present time, much of this is also going on at the college level.  In few colleges does a student who bypasses unnecessary courses have a way of receiving credit for those courses, and students deliberately take weak courses for grades and easy credits.

That’s two problems. The first issue is, what is the college willing to accept before it gives a grade ? The other is, how demanding is a college willing to be ? Both issues resolve to a money balance: to make sure that the level is kept up while not impacting the college’s or department’s own feasibility. Alberto.

Response:

 I just have to laugh here. That poster has never spent a Friday working with 40 eight year olds, 30 nine year olds and 100 six year olds (40 of whom don’t speak English). My Fridays alone — we won’t even count M, T, W & Th — would drive most techies back to their computers in a hurry. Slow paced? Less than 60 hours? Not 24/7? In his *dreams* maybe.

However… Have you ever had to put up a whole nighter ? I had, more than once. Do you work on saturdays and sundays ? I do, more often than I care for. Do you put up eighteen hour work days ? I do, every once in a while. Does your lifemate complain that you get home late night far too often, that your work looks more important than your private life ? Mine did, more than once. High tech can be intense too, you know! Alberto.

Response:

 I believe this holds true for some teaching at the college level too. That is, I experienced some pretty lousy teaching at the college/university level. Being a subject area God is *NO* guarantee that a person can teach at *any* level.

But at college level, it is certainly a prerequisite. The problem is, to teach in college one must be able to teach *and* one must be good enough at what one’s teaching. In fact, I believe this goes for K12 too – and the fact that people drop the academic requirement is, as I see it, one of the main components of the problem. Alberto.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I believe this holds true for some teaching at the college level too. That is, I experienced some pretty lousy teaching at the college/university level. Being a subject area God is *NO* guarantee that a person can teach at *any* level. But at college level, it is certainly a prerequisite. The problem is, to teach in college one must be able to teach *and* one must be good enough at what one’s teaching. In fact, I believe this goes for K12 too – and the fact that people drop the academic requirement is, as I see it, one of the main components of the problem.

I’m fine with that for the most part. I’ve simply grown tired of the assumption a few folks hold that subject area knowledge is all that is required.

Response:

  This shortage could be resolved tomorrow without the need for additional funds from the U.S. government, in the following manner.  1)  Fire teaching assistants.  2)  Hire retired professional people who have academic degrees in math and science for the same money.  3)  Let them earn teaching certificates as part of an apprenticeship.   Q.E.D.

Teaching assistants are grad students who help professors teach college courses.  They earn minimum wage or less.  "Retired professional people" aren’t interested in the job.  Giving out "teaching certificates" wouldn’t be much of a lure, since teaching certificates aren’t needed to teach college. Nor would handing out teaching certificates to someone who’s done a bit of time as a teacher’s aide, but is otherwise untrained to teach, eliminate the TEACHER’S shortage. You wouldn’t ease the doctor’s shortage by handing out MD degrees to hospital volunteers, would you? Frank Before you buy.

Response:

You go, girl!   Teaching certificates are not required or expected to teach college students.   <snip I would prefer people who understand subject matter, and who either have never had any education courses, or who think they are of negative value.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Your comments show that you don’t understand what K12 teaching is.   your ideal teacher candidate is far more often than not the sacrificial lamb of a bunch of you silly, self-important, out of touch, ivory-assed bozos who would never get your hands dirty on an actual educational problem. <snip So you can cast all the blame on teachers you want.  In many schools, the job itself is total shit, and the lack of applicants speaks for itself.  This country built these schools and made of them exactly what they are.  You are lucky anyone teaches in them at all. J. Z. Al-Huriyeh

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Teaching certificates are not required or expected to teach college students.  They are only part of the requirements for teaching in elementary or secondary schools, and usually are not required by private schools.  I personally question whether they should be considered at all.  I would prefer people who understand subject matter, and who either have never had any education courses, or who think they are of negative value. Your comments show that you don’t understand what K12 teaching is. This work offers no incentives to attract or keep academics. Complaining that academics don’t choose K12 teaching is like complaining that dentists apply for jobs laying bricks.  This career has little appeal to people who like to read, study, research and publish, simply because they will neither be allowed time for these things, support for these things, or any compensation for these things.  Academics who mistakenly wind up in K12 quit within a few years once they realize that the reality does not wander anywhere near the ideal. The pay is drastically lower than in other fields requiring comparable years of study.  Academics are usually miserable in K12 because of the poor working conditions, the low prestige, the mishandling they’re subjected to by administration and state officials, and the psychopathology of the students.  I have a PhD, two accountants, a paralegal, an insurance exec and a lawyer crash and burn within a few semesters– a few within one semester.  All of them were intelligent people with good intentions but not an f-ing clue about how to run a classroom, relate to K12 age children, or plan an effective lesson. I believe this holds true for some teaching at the college level too. That is, I experienced some pretty lousy teaching at the college/university level. Being a subject area God is *NO* guarantee that a person can teach at *any* level.

  O.K.  Perhaps you MISSED the salient points of this message so I’ll S-L-O-W it down for you.   ONE:  Currently, certified teachers do not have to know anything in particular about their subject, they merely need a certificate that says they know how to teach.   < I will pause bete]ween each point to allow each point to sink in   TWO:  Currently, in many classrooms (K-12) a teaching assistant needs neither a degree, nor a certificate to ASSIST the teacher with teaching duties.          < * **** PAUSE *****   THREE:  There are currently people who hold academic degrees in Math, Physics, English (you get the picture), who are working in other professions, but are nearing retirement age and would love the opportunity to help the next generation by teaching in the classroom.   FOUR:  IF (big IF) the teachers unions had apprenticeship programs (like many other unions do) which could train these academically knowledgeable people on the job.  (e.g. let them be the teaching assistants for say a year or two learning from a certified teacher how to relate what they know to the young people)    THEN   FIVE:  Having teaching assistance would have some merit beyond just hiring a breathing body to babysit the rest of the class while the teacher is working with the "reading group" or "math group" etc.   SIX:  This idea will never see the light of day because the real issue in the classroom isn’t education and how to improve it, or a depleted teacher pool.  It is control, and money. They want the local districts controlled from Washington, where their lobby efforts will be better managed and cheaper to employ.   Instead of having to finance thousands of local efforts, they would only need one.  This is why they oppose all attempts to change the system.  Even ideas like this which would cost nothing, and would provide the public schools with knowledgeable teachers.   If Algore is elected he has already promised to increase federal spending for education to 15 billion dollars.  This is three times the current budget.  The largest teachers union in the country (NEA) has already claimed that money for salaries and wages of CURRENT teachers. With this added spending will come additional federal regulations which will favor the Unions and the teachers at the expense of the children and parents, while other options like apprenticeships, vouchers and the like get tossed aside.   See, it’s not so hard to understand this.   Good job! Semperfinite… Before you buy.

Response:

   I know a good number of people who would love to retire from the 60+ hours, (24/7) work week of the high tech industry, to the quaint and comparitively slow pace of a classroom.  At anyrate, it doesn’t matter becasue even if there were an endless stream of volunteers, the teacher’s unions would never permit it.  After all, you’ve got to realize this education scam isn’t about education ..it’s about controlof the classroom.

And here’s the fantasy. A classroom is not a slow thing unless the teacher him or herself is slow – and then, that individual will be slow in industry too, and who wants that kind of people ? To teach at college degree, with a few exceptions, you need to have the knowledge of a Ph.D. And where are all those people that we can’t find them ? And you know, college is a very, very different reality from a public K12. Alberto.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Teachers Not Making the Grade  1:50 p.m.  Sep. 27, 2000 PDT The United States’ shortage of good teachers in math and science has reached crisis proportions, a government commission on education reported Wednesday.  This shortage could be resolved tomorrow without the need for additional funds from the U.S. government, in the following manner. 1)  Fire teaching assistants. As I understand it, teaching assistants are college students who do some teaching in connection with their education.  This is a short-term proposition, and they only teach college students.

  ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK!  I’m sorry that’s the wrong answer, but thank you for playing our game…   No actually, this could possibly vary from state to state but here in Michigan there is no requirement as to who can be a teaching assistant other than they have to be breathing.   And again NO, we have them in our classrooms from K-12.  SURPRISE!!!! 2)  Hire retired professional people who have academic degrees in math and science for the same money. 3)  Let them earn teaching certificates as part of an apprenticeship. Teaching certificates are not required or expected to teach college students.  They are only part of the requirements for teaching in elementary or secondary schools, and usually are not required by private schools.  I personally question whether they should be considered at all.  I would prefer people who understand subject matter, and who either have never had any education courses, or who think they are of negative value.

  Truly, the idea of certificates in education as a prerequisite for employment could only have come from the minds of the Union leaders or democRATS.  It is a perfectly rediculous requirement that serves only to restrict the nuber of people who may legally be hired by the government run system. I doubt that you can find enough of these retired professional people, and in any case, they, not the current teachers, should decide the curriculum, with emphasis on understanding and getting the most accomplished.

  I know a good number of people who would love to retire from the 60+ hours, (24/7) work week of the high tech industry, to the quaint and comparitively slow pace of a classroom.  At anyrate, it doesn’t matter becasue even if there were an endless stream of volunteers, the teacher’s unions would never permit it.  After all, you’ve got to realize this education scam isn’t about education ..it’s about controlof the classroom.  Q.E.D. Now that you know the cure, take a good look at the forces that would oppose this plan.  I’ll give you dollars to donuts the opponants will be the teacher’s unions and the democRATS. They will oppose anything which will allow children to get a real education.

Well at least we agree on something. Semperfinite… Before you buy.

Response:

   This shortage could be resolved tomorrow without the need for additional funds from the U.S. government, in the following manner.

Your medicine would rather sink the system, and pretty quick.  1)  Fire teaching assistants.

TAs are either grad students – that is, PROFESSIONALS, with a hard-earned four-year college degree – or PostDocs, that is – PH.D’S – DOCTORS – who do one or two years service as the equivalent of the medical "residence". They are not ignorants neither are they just your average undergrad, and as a rule they’re going to be far more competent in current knowledge than retired professionals. So, what are you proposing, reverse age discrimination ?  2)  Hire retired professional people who have academic degrees in math and science for the same money.

You couldn’t hire a janitor for the money a TA or even PostDoc is paid. Furthermore, those retired professionals of yours – unless they are college professors with a Ph.D., and even then, it’s a very iffy proposition because science and technology advances by leaps and bounds – will be so rusty, and their knowledge so out of date, that they’ll be hopeless as teachers. There will be the odd soul who will bring industry knowledge to balance academic tilt, but those are few and far between, and most of them are already teaching anyway, because they’ve been bitten by the bug. And you know, the last thing we need is to bring in people who’ll convert a science college degree into a votech incursion. If those people were available for hire, we wouldn’t be experiencing the hard personnel crunch that we experience today in science and technology, accross the board. But if they don’t seem to exist even to perform their own favorite jobs in their own industry, how can we possibly pretend they could handle something as hard as academia ?  3)  Let them earn teaching certificates as part of an apprenticeship.

In other words, old TAs instead of new ones, with no guarantee whatsoever of performance, and with the additional need to train them. While a TA today is fresh out of college or of a Ph.D., with up to date knowledge and experience, often with superior academic history, who has worked with his or her professor for the last few years at least, who knows the university, the college, the department, and its often idiosyncratic ways. TAs are a far better compromise than anything else I can think, except of course hiring full time Ph.Ds. But then, they’re EXPENSIVE, and students get what they pay for.   Q.E.D.

The way I see it, your suggestion doesn’t make any sense at the light of the current academic reality.  Now that you know the cure, take a good look at the forces that would oppose this plan.  I’ll give you dollars to donuts the opponants will be the teacher’s unions and the democRATS. Wanna bet???

I’m not in a teacher’s union and I’m not a democrat.  You owe me a donut. Alberto.

Response:

1)  Fire teaching assistants. As I understand it, teaching assistants are college students who do some teaching in connection with their education.  This is a short-term proposition, and they only teach college students.

Teaching assistant is the guy/gal that "found" 4 unexisting errors in my daughter’s 2nd grade math test. It took lots of efforts to persuade my daughter that the teacher is not stupid, she knows that after 21 goes 22 and it is the assistant who messes things up. These assistants are college students? Poor, poor college professors! Alex.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2)  Hire retired professional people who have academic degrees in math and science for the same money. 3)  Let them earn teaching certificates as part of an apprenticeship. Teaching certificates are not required or expected to teach college students.  They are only part of the requirements for teaching in elementary or secondary schools, and usually are not required by private schools.  I personally question whether they should be considered at all.  I would prefer people who understand subject matter, and who either have never had any education courses, or who think they are of negative value.  Truly, the idea of certificates in education as a prerequisite for employment could only have come from the minds of the Union leaders or democRATS.  It is a perfectly rediculous requirement that serves only to restrict the nuber of people who may legally be hired by the government run system.

The idea of curricular certificates goes farther back, even to the time when the unions were much weaker, and the Democratic party had not yet become the welfare party. Yes, there was such a time.  This was promulgated, not just for teachers but also for lawyers and doctors, by those who wanted others to believe that their type of academic accreditation was necessary in order to be a professional. It was this phony and arrogant professionalism which was the driving force.   I doubt that you can find enough of these retired professional people, and in any case, they, not the current teachers, should decide the curriculum, with emphasis on understanding and getting the most accomplished.  I know a good number of people who would love to retire from the 60+ hours, (24/7) work week of the high tech industry, to the quaint and comparitively slow pace of a classroom.  At anyrate, it doesn’t matter becasue even if there were an endless stream of volunteers, the teacher’s unions would never permit it.  After all, you’ve got to realize this education scam isn’t about education ..it’s about controlof the classroom.

It is not the control of the classroom, but the control of what children will be allowed to learn, and how they will be advanced.  The educationists want to use grades and credits, not understanding and the ability to put it all together and use it.  They consider it a sin that some can learn better and quicker than others, and do their best to punish this sin. — This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

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Teachers Not Making the Grade  1:50 p.m.  Sep. 27, 2000 PDT The United States’ shortage of good teachers in math and science has reached crisis proportions, a government commission on education reported Wednesday. The  [ http://www.wirednews.com/news/politics/0,1283,38876,00.html/news/cult... ] Glenn Commission , chaired by former senator and astronaut John Glenn an Full text at: http://www.wirednews.com/news/politics/0,1283,38876,00.html http:  www wirednews com news politics 0,1283,38876,00 html web2news.pl

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Teachers Not Making the Grade  1:50 p.m.  Sep. 27, 2000 PDT The United States’ shortage of good teachers in math and science has

reached crisis proportions, a government commission on education reported Wednesday.

  This shortage could be resolved tomorrow without the need for additional funds from the U.S. government, in the following manner.  1)  Fire teaching assistants.  2)  Hire retired professional people who have academic degrees in math and science for the same money.  3)  Let them earn teaching certificates as part of an apprenticeship.   Q.E.D. Now that you know the cure, take a good look at the forces that would oppose this plan.  I’ll give you dollars to donuts the opponants will be the teacher’s unions and the democRATS. Wanna bet??? Semperfinite… Before you buy.

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Teachers Not Making the Grade  1:50 p.m.  Sep. 27, 2000 PDT The United States’ shortage of good teachers in math and science has reached crisis proportions, a government commission on education reported Wednesday.  This shortage could be resolved tomorrow without the need for additional funds from the U.S. government, in the following manner. 1)  Fire teaching assistants.

As I understand it, teaching assistants are college students who do some teaching in connection with their education.  This is a short-term proposition, and they only teach college students. 2)  Hire retired professional people who have academic degrees in math and science for the same money. 3)  Let them earn teaching certificates as part of an apprenticeship.

Teaching certificates are not required or expected to teach college students.  They are only part of the requirements for teaching in elementary or secondary schools, and usually are not required by private schools.  I personally question whether they should be considered at all.  I would prefer people who understand subject matter, and who either have never had any education courses, or who think they are of negative value. I doubt that you can find enough of these retired professional people, and in any case, they, not the current teachers, should decide the curriculum, with emphasis on understanding and getting the most accomplished.  Q.E.D. Now that you know the cure, take a good look at the forces that would oppose this plan.  I’ll give you dollars to donuts the opponants will be the teacher’s unions and the democRATS.

They will oppose anything which will allow children to get a real education. — This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

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Question:

Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too.  I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

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does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

Hi Bob, My wife works at a high school that has done the same thing as yours: they "paid" for their computer labs by basically eliminating all their shop classes. What a joke! I really appreciate my computer for communication purposes, but all they are teaching the kids on the computers is how to be hi-tech clerks. Oh, there are a few destined to be techies and programmers, but the bulk of them will be clerks. I had wood, metal and handicraft shops while in junior high school in Southern California. Thank heavens! That, and the love affair with large moving mechanical objects called cars, was the basis for my current ability to solve problems, and build things from scratch, as needed. . .It is a real shame that this current cultural policy of assuming that all the U.S. needs is people who can manipulate keyboards is being foisted off on this generation and those to follow. Kim

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        Greetings and Salutations.         Well between THIS news group, and, rec.crafts.metalworking, there are probably megabytes of stored discussion about this.  I tend to agree with you, and, see only one, short-term benefit to this.  It means that it will mean permanent employment for all of us that can (and the few of us that are learning how to) do this sort of skilled work in metal and wood.  It will also cut down on the number of times we hit up against some twit saying "Geeze…why are you charging THAT much for <blivet.  I could do it for myself for about 1/3 that cost!"         In the long run, it will mean that America see a continuing erosion of its ability to be self-sufficient.  It will mean that more and more manufacturing will move to other countries, and, employers that remain IN the US will be unable to find competent workers.  Can America survive turning into a country of White-Collar workers who are not able to make basic tools?  I think not.  While it is not a terrible thing if a given person does not know EXACTLY what is going on inside their computer/car/etc, it makes problem resolution a bit easier if they have moved beyond the level of turning the key on and pointing it in a given direction.         Part of the problem is the snotty attitudes that many Americans have about people that work with their hands.  We have had a couple of generations now of folks that put College folks on a pedestal,and, view these folks that work mainly with their minds as being "better" than those that work with their hands.         Part of the problem is the liability issues.  America is continually overrun with more and more lawyers, and, more and more folks believing in the motto of "I got hurt…SOMEBODY ELSE is going to pay".  hence, even if some idiot ignores all safety instructions and warnings, and, runs their fingers through a table saw, or nails a foot to the floor while horsing around, the school system gets sued. With the general mind-set of the populace these days, a LOT of awards get made that should either not be as BIG as they are, or, should not be made at all.         When folks used to make Polish jokes, I would look at them and say "well, let me ask you…can you speak Polish?".  As the answer was almost always "well…no".  I would retort with "How does it feel to be stupider than a Pole, then?"  It is important for all of us to respect skills in ALL areas.  There is nothing that makes a heart surgeon any better a person than a car mechanic.  EIther can be vital to your life, depending on what is failing.         Regards         Dave Mundt Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too.  I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

Remove the mapson. from the email address to get to me… I hate Cullers who gather from newsgroups Visit my home page at http://www.esper.com/xvart/index.html

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If what you are describing is the same as I have seen in WV and PA schools then I think that there is a misrepresentation. In these Districts they still have a Vo-Tech school where those interested in technical education such as carpentry, metal working, auto repair/body, etc. can obtain a good basis in these fields. The tech labs are designed to provide younger kids in the Jr. Highs and Middle schools a reasonably good sampling of various technical fields that may be of interest to them as future careers or might interest them in the sciences behind these fields. The labs that I have been in include hydrolics, robotics, electronics, electrical (two different things), and other fields. The kids go from one station to another spending 3 to 6 weeks on each. Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby. Granted, so is pottery and numerous other "subjects" that seem to be able to maintain funding and time in the curriculum after shop is dropped. Maybe woodshop should be redefined as an art so that it can compete in the liberal mindset with pottery, music, etc. However, if our schools are going to return to a focus on preparing kids for careers after school or for higher eductation, the curriculum needs to be focused on such. As long as those with an interest can still obtain a quality techical education in the Vo-Tech programs, I am not sure that woodshop as a curricular subject matter in the academic program makes good use of limited time in school. Dave Hall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob. Hi Bob, My wife works at a high school that has done the same thing as yours: they "paid" for their computer labs by basically eliminating all their shop classes. What a joke! I really appreciate my computer for communication purposes, but all they are teaching the kids on the computers is how to be hi-tech clerks. Oh, there are a few destined to be techies and programmers, but the bulk of them will be clerks. I had wood, metal and handicraft shops while in junior high school in Southern California. Thank heavens! That, and the love affair with large moving mechanical objects called cars, was the basis for my current ability to solve problems, and build things from scratch, as needed. . .It is a real shame that this current cultural policy of assuming that all the U.S. needs is people who can manipulate keyboards is being foisted off on this generation and those to follow. Kim

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A large school district in our city has reduced the woodworking and metal shops to three with two instructors dividing their time between them.  An instructor I was talking to was told it was a combination of liability and the redirecting of the curricula toward high technology (spelled computers). He couldn’t understand because there was always a shortage of spaces available compared to the students wanting to take the classes. I have always felt that common sense can be gained through practical experience and woodshop is a great place for it.  It also teaches self sufficiency and practical knowledge for the future homeowner and family man. And, it is a good springboard for the future professional woodworker.  I guess these things are no longer important. Dismayed and Disillusioned, Preston — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too. I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

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Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby.

It teaches much more than "simply" a hobby, although hobbies are certainly in decline these days. It teaches of the union between hand and eye, it teaches practical lessons in physics, in other words, it teaches much more than how to nail two boards together. . .Linguists have long been aware of the direct link between the sensitivity of digital manipulation and the ability for refined speech and critical thinking. As long as those with an interest can still obtain a quality techical education in the Vo-Tech programs, I am not sure that woodshop as a curricular subject matter in the academic program makes good use of limited time in school.

I am not speaking exclusively of producing carpenters, but rather human beings with the ability to think critically, to take a hands on approach to life, rather than thinking all things come from the "store." Training people to be fodder for corporate globalism is not my idea of what it’s all about. . .IMHO. Kim Kim

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I agree completely. — CW KC7NOD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby. It teaches much more than "simply" a hobby, although hobbies are certainly in decline these days. It teaches of the union between hand and eye, it teaches practical lessons in physics, in other words, it teaches much more than how to nail two boards together. . .Linguists have long been aware of the direct link between the sensitivity of digital manipulation and the ability for refined speech and critical thinking. As long as those with an interest can still obtain a quality techical education in the Vo-Tech programs, I am not sure that woodshop as a curricular subject matter in the academic program makes good use of limited time in school. I am not speaking exclusively of producing carpenters, but rather human beings with the ability to think critically, to take a hands on approach to life, rather than thinking all things come from the "store." Training people to be fodder for corporate globalism is not my idea of what it’s all about. . .IMHO. Kim Kim

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I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested)

Please don’t.  If this is not just another troll, you are likely a US teacher, or perhaps an Ontario teacher.  They follow closely behind all of the mistakes made in the US, since they can’t believe that anyone could be that dumb and feel they must try them for themselves. Actually, the last part is not quite true.  They do it because the diplomats in both government, ministry, and board of ed and yuppy teachers (who really want to get the Hell out of the classroom into the principal’s office and board office at double their salary) need some sort of novel idea to show that they are useful and doing something.  It doesn’t matter what.  They just need "something", so they change for the sake of change. It was made pretty clear that the real education of Joe Average was down the chute when they took him away from (sold all of them) the wood and metal lathe and stuck him in front of the computer typing in WordImperfect.  Just what we need:  a whole bunch of bearded secretaries who can’t knock a nail into a piece of wood if they had all day, or add 2+2 without a calculator. Dan.

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Dave Hall writes: Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby. Granted, so is pottery and numerous other "subjects" that seem to be snip Maybe woodshop should be redefined as an art so that it can compete in the liberal mindset with pottery, music, etc.

Say what?  As a certified liberal woodworker I find your statement absolutely asinine. Too, I’ve been lucky enough to never live in an area where pottery is taught and woodworking is not. Charlie Self Word Worker

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All you have to do now is go to your local convenience store or fast food joint and give the kid behind the counter exact change,or the change above the large bill you just gave them and watch the confusion reign on their faces as they try to figure this strange event out, especially when the ‘puter goes down. Heck, kids in elementary school carry calculators arond with them now. What’s the world coming to. When in High School, I had college-level accounting and only had the old type of calculator; the one with the big handle on the side. I could add up a whole page of debits and credits faster without the calculator than most of my classmates with a calculator. In house building and commercial construction, one is always adding up a series of measurements, often with different fractions,ie; 9′-8 9/16" + 16′-4 1/4" + 7′-0 3/8" = 33′-1 3/16" Of course everyone knows that you have to transmute everything in adding fractions to the common denominator. Well…off to work I go. Got to add up those hurs and tell y boss to keep writing that check til his hand gets tired, then I’ll take over…ha ha.           Mike G.  

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What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Personally, I really hope that my three kids seriously look at vocational school rather than university.  Companies are desperate to find skilled tool-and-die makers, and they make good coin.  I am trying to keep the image of "mechanic as skilled worker" instead of "dirty handed grunt labor" strong in my kids. And now we teach them in school that working with your hands is secondary and unimportant, compared to "keyboarding skills". Sigh. Before you buy.

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The only counter I will make to this is I was raised in a small farming community in Oregon and in the early 70’s I wanted to do electronics and the only choices I had was metal and woodworking. Mind I love woodworking and the classes didn’t really improve my skills because I have a great dad who showed me how to do stuff. I ended up working for a TV repair place and learning electronics kind of on the job (part time). What I find lacking when I talk to my child that she has no interest in learning anything about how stuff works. To me that is the shame on the parents about not getting the kids excited about discovering how things work. — Just my thoughts……Roydan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too.  I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

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What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes.

Quite the opposite, actually. Our high standard of living is due to automation and its affect on productivity. A car assembler today is many times as productive as a car assembler of the 1920s…but a custom furniture maker is no more productive than his cousin from 80 years ago. Yet he expects to make a decent living, too, despite the fact his productivity makes his product a luxury rather than a necessity. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays.

Given that being a skilled tradesman pays a lot more than minimum wage, I wonder where you got this idea.

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My daughter goes to me just recently "Dad, why should I work as a plumber when I can go to college, get my commercial flight license, aerospace degree and not get that dirty and have to work crazy hours." She does like to work with her hands (ie. car engines, woodworking, building rockets etc…) but would rather do it as a hobby. In her eyes school shop was a waste, she had already learned it at home. I wish I had the solution and I do not believe that there is a single answer. I do feel that all school districts should have a votec though. Even if one or two districts have to get together to fund it. Just my 2 cents worth ChrisW NE N. Carolina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Personally, I really hope that my three kids seriously look at vocational school rather than university.  Companies are desperate to find skilled tool-and-die makers, and they make good coin.  I am trying to keep the image of "mechanic as skilled worker" instead of "dirty handed grunt labor" strong in my kids. And now we teach them in school that working with your hands is secondary and unimportant, compared to "keyboarding skills". Sigh. Before you buy.

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My daughter goes to me just recently "Dad, why should I work as a plumber when I can go to college, get my commercial flight license, aerospace degree and not get that dirty and have to work crazy hours." She does like

I hope you enlightened her about crazy flight hours, double shifts, and overnighters in the airline/aerospace businesses, Chris. to work with her hands (ie. car engines, woodworking, building rockets etc…) but would rather do it as a hobby. In her eyes school shop was a waste, she had already learned it at home.

Probably a valid point, but she could have learned more 1) from a teacher other than Dad, and 2) by helping others learn. I love my dad and learned lots from him, but others had other info which was just as important. I wish I had the solution and I do not believe that there is a single answer. I do feel that all school districts should have a votec though. Even if one or two districts have to get together to fund it.

Agreed. These are skills which should never die. I took wood shop, metal shop, mechanical drawing, and basic aviation in school and feel that I’m a better man from each of the four classes. Unfortunately, the term "Homo Sapiens" is a goal, not a description.                                 —-                                       http://www.diversify.com    Web Design for YOUR Business!        

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How many examples of stupidity are we willing to accept from the public school systems. MHO: All school administrators, board members, many teachers and the majority of the parents are morons! To prove my point compare the language of the Gettysburg Address to any public announcement from the schools. Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating.

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Well, MY daughter decided to forgo college (after 2 1/2 yrs) to go to work in my industry ( trade show exhibit installations). Jon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter goes to me just recently "Dad, why should I work as a plumber when I can go to college, get my commercial flight license, aerospace degree and not get that dirty and have to work crazy hours." She does like to work with her hands (ie. car engines, woodworking, building rockets etc…) but would rather do it as a hobby. In her eyes school shop was a waste, she had already learned it at home. I wish I had the solution and I do not believe that there is a single answer. I do feel that all school districts should have a votec though. Even if one or two districts have to get together to fund it. Just my 2 cents worth ChrisW NE N. Carolina What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Personally, I really hope that my three kids seriously look at vocational school rather than university.  Companies are desperate to find skilled tool-and-die makers, and they make good coin.  I am trying to keep the image of "mechanic as skilled worker" instead of "dirty handed grunt labor" strong in my kids. And now we teach them in school that working with your hands is secondary and unimportant, compared to "keyboarding skills". Sigh. Before you buy.

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<<Heavy Snips What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor. Quite the opposite, actually. Our high standard of living is due to automation and its affect on productivity. A car assembler today is many times as productive as a car assembler of the 1920s…but a custom furniture maker is no more productive than his cousin from 80 years ago. Yet he expects to make a decent living, too, despite the fact his productivity makes his product a luxury rather than a necessity.

Hmm… Clarity problem.  I wasn’t talking about product when I mentioned "value".  I was thinking purely along the lines that being a "dirty hands" kind of trade is not held in as high a regard as it used to be, be it plumber, electrician, HVAC, whatever.  I was not attempting to imply that merely because someone works with their hands that their work *should* be valuable. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Given that being a skilled tradesman pays a lot more than minimum wage, I wonder where you got this idea.

Uh, okay.  Given that when a child stands up and says "Dad, I want to be an (X)", parents initial reaction is usually not to whip out the "average wages per profession" tables and gauge potential incomes.  My kids could make a Jillion as a (insert dangerous high risk job here) but it doesn’t mean that I’d be instantly happy if they decided to do so. There are attitudes and perceptions attached to any occupation, and theses have changed in recent years to weigh more positively on "brain" jobs as opposed to "hands" jobs, independent of wages. –Kirby Before you buy.

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kerf writes: Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating.

We got a local problem following those strictures, kerf.  Us liberals are so much in the minority here that the school system has had to get screwed up by itself.  Or was that by the conservatives? Charlie Self Word Worker

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and pecked: kerf writes: Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating. We got a local problem following those strictures, kerf.  Us liberals are so much in the minority here that the school system has had to get screwed up by itself.  Or was that by the conservatives?

That’s "We liberals" (you guys, not me) and the system was surely done-in it by said minority. The conservatives only screw ‘em up then they follow the SCRIPtures, and we all know they’re kept out of schools. <bseg obww: Are new trees killed to produce revisionist history books? Unfortunately, the term "Homo Sapiens" is a goal, not a description.                                 —-                                       http://www.diversify.com    Web Design for YOUR Business!        

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Most school boards and administrations are controlled by flaming liberals. Their solution is to throw more and more money into the system. Not so the education will improve but because that will ensure their continued employment and justify their useless existance. How was it that until the early 60’s the US managed to produce functionally literate individuals? My solution is radical. Return to the classical education of math, language (including Latin), science, history and the arts. End the open campus  and make achievement mandatory for advancement. School should be tough, otherwise just give everyone a diploma and let industry worry about it. Another trend that just frosts my monkeys is the way media and ploiticians pander to the children. Seeking answers from them to solve the world’s problems. These are children who are in or barely out of puberty. Their world is videos and baggy pants. No wonder the world is screwed up. The president looks for solutions from kids on MTV. And, what’s the most memorable question the kids asked Clinton? Boxers or briefs?   Can’t you guys see how screwed up the whole mess is?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many examples of stupidity are we willing to accept from the public school systems. MHO: All school administrators, board members, many teachers and the majority of the parents are morons! To prove my point compare the language of the Gettysburg Address to any public announcement from the schools. Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating.

A wise and well reasoned analysis of the issues and possible corrective actions. A product of the public school system, I am sure. Dave Hall

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Most school boards and administrations are controlled by flaming liberals. Their solution is to throw more and more money into the system. Not so the education will improve but because that will ensure their continued employment and justify their useless existance. How was it that until the early 60’s the US managed to produce functionally literate individuals?

If you had the strength of your own convictions, you’d kill your television.

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Unfortunately, the major power is neither the feds nor the local boards, but the NEA and its teacher college system.  As a previously degreed individual enrolled in a teacher certification curriculum, I was sickened by the number of times the future educators asked the profs either of two questions: "Do we have to know this for the exam?"                           "What does this have to do with being a teacher?" The gray hair could only keep saying life is cumulative, and nothing you learn is ever wasted.  Not that they listened.  It wasn’t going to be on the exam.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating. We got a local problem following those strictures, kerf.  Us liberals are so much in the minority here that the school system has had to get screwed up by itself.  Or was that by the conservatives?

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Another trend that just frosts my monkeys is the way media and ploiticians pander to the children. Seeking answers from them to solve the world’s problems. These are children who are in or barely out of puberty. Their world is videos and baggy pants.

Oh that takes me back… I haven’t had a good frosted monkey in years. Probably not the same any more, though. Multinational conglomerate that doesn’t know the difference between a good frosted monkey and a simple chilled ape. Ah, well, best to breed your own, I suppose. No wonder the world is screwed up. The president looks for solutions from kids on MTV. And, what’s the most memorable question the kids asked Clinton? Boxers or briefs? Can’t you guys see how screwed up the whole mess is?

I can see someone who selectively remembers one stupid, offhand question asked by the MTV kids and conveniently ignores their other serious, penetrating, non-journalist questions. You’re biased if you say the glass is half full or half empty. It’s just half a glass of water, nothing more or less. — Guy Finney

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If the Purchases invoiced are within the Trading and Profit and Loss period then you should enter

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i need a accounts payable system do not want to use any other accounting funtion any recomendations ?? can quick books or one write plus or peechtree be used as a stand alone A/P (will need reports to post to existing G/L) thanks charlie

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Why dont you use the simple method of PeachTree or Quicken

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary, The industry I had in mind was fine wine wholesaling.  "Futures" transactions (as much as two years before the wine is even BOTTLED) are evidenced by documents called "proformas".  When the wine is actually shipped, an actual invoice is generated.  Some European vendors use separately numbered customs invoices, so that altogether there are three documents with different numbers for the same merchandise. Amazing, ain’t it? Even more amazing IMO is how the guys that buy and sell this stuff can figure out what it’s gonna taste like (and sell for) two years hence. It’s a wunnerful world out there… Ellen  :)

Ellen The transaction you are describing (Wine Futures) is similar to a contractor or Lawyer where a given project increases in time but not directly in relation to the cost. This is project accounting as opposed to Goods in Process or Inventory. When this principle is undertaken even the generic low cost accounting packages can organize and compile your transactions into reports that help you control your business. GARY

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The expense and frustration of developing an alternative to a "canned" system is not for the faint of heart

True, though some developers would disagree … there are certainly a number of suppliers who provide source code for working accounting packages that can be tweaked with a little effort, allowing you to roll your own without doing ALL the development work. But as a developer (or is the word ’specialist’ now <grin), I’d rather be dragged over hot coals and broken glass before getting into such a project – not because of the front end, but because of the support and upgrade requirements. A well-staffed help-desk and an ongoing commitment to upgrading the product based on lots of customer feedback are the key issues. To say nothing of the "hit by a truck" scenario (What happens if the developer gets hit by a truck ? Will anyone else be able to maintain and upgrade the software ?) systems are (1) too simple and (2) too available for a company to waste

On the ground, none of my clients have the same accounting requirements. No nationally-known software meets all their needs. They resolve this, not by rewriting accounting software, but by using complementary programs that meet their special needs. One example: a client who tracks the production of gravestones. There are even commercial gravestone accounting packages available – but they solve their problem by running a database application I wrote in parallel with AccPac. They’ve developed standard operating procedure to make sure the database data is used to drive their accounting entries.

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Your statement seems rather facile to me.  Many businesses cannot use software like QuickBooks or Peachtree because the way the business is run doesn’t fit the expectations of the people who wrote the program.  For example, in some industries merchandise is ordered and paid for well in advance of being shipped. For GAAP, no purchase or sale has occurred in such a case.  Most canned software packages will track "purchase orders" and "sales orders"… and funds paid or received can be posted to deposit accounts as current assets or liabilities respectively… but there will be no way to track payment SCHEDULES or show the equivalent of an A/R or A/P aging.  Insisting that such transactions be shoehorned into a canned program does not help the client. My $0.02. Ellen

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your statement seems rather facile to me.  Many businesses cannot use software like QuickBooks or Peachtree because the way the business is run doesn’t fit the expectations of the people who wrote the program.  For example, in some industries merchandise is ordered and paid for well in advance of being shipped. For GAAP, no purchase or sale has occurred in such a case.  Most canned software packages will track "purchase orders" and "sales orders"… and funds paid or received can be posted to deposit accounts as current assets or liabilities respectively… but there will be no way to track payment SCHEDULES or show the equivalent of an A/R or A/P aging.  Insisting that such transactions be shoehorned into a canned program does not help the client. My $0.02. Ellen

Ellen Would you please name four of the several industries where merchandise is ordered and paid for well in advance of being shipped. I thought that I knew that an Invoice was a legal document describing the transfer of title. What do these Industries use instead of invoices? Gary

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Gary, The industry I had in mind was fine wine wholesaling.  "Futures" transactions (as much as two years before the wine is even BOTTLED) are evidenced by documents called "proformas".  When the wine is actually shipped, an actual invoice is generated.  Some European vendors use separately numbered customs invoices, so that altogether there are three documents with different numbers for the same merchandise. Amazing, ain’t it? Even more amazing IMO is how the guys that buy and sell this stuff can figure out what it’s gonna taste like (and sell for) two years hence. It’s a wunnerful world out there… Ellen  :)

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The expense and frustration of developing an alternative to a "canned" system is not for the faint of heart.  Basically, no effort should be spared in trying to find a "canned" solution before attempting in-house (or worse, outside) development of an accounting application.  Accounting systems are (1) too simple and (2) too available for a company to waste money, gobs of money, reinventing the wheel. Perhaps QB or Peachtree isn’t the right program — they’re great for smaller businesses but not enough horsepower for medium or large businesses.  The size of the business is the most important factor in determining the suitability of a particular accounting program.  A small business should seldom, if ever, consider developing an alternative to a canned program.  Anyone advising a small business owner to do otherwise is providing poor advise. David Ray CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your statement seems rather facile to me.  Many businesses cannot use software like QuickBooks or Peachtree because the way the business is run doesn’t fit the expectations of the people who wrote the program.  For example, in some industries merchandise is ordered and paid for well in advance of being shipped. For GAAP, no purchase or sale has occurred in such a case.  Most canned software packages will track "purchase orders" and "sales orders"… and funds paid or received can be posted to deposit accounts as current assets or liabilities respectively… but there will be no way to track payment SCHEDULES or show the equivalent of an A/R or A/P aging.  Insisting that such transactions be shoehorned into a canned program does not help the client. My $0.02. Ellen Ellen Would you please name four of the several industries where merchandise is ordered and paid for well in advance of being shipped. I thought that I knew that an Invoice was a legal document describing the transfer of title. What do these Industries use instead of invoices? Gary

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I am starting a company and in the process to choose both a cpa and an accounting software. Over the weeks in this newsgroup, the most recommended software appears to be MYOB. I received a trial version and it fits my needs. But I do not find a local CPA knowing it One CPA recommend Peachtree, the other one says :"I would not recommend Peachtree. For you, I prefer Creative Solution …" Who could give me some advice in this important and difficult decision ?

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I am starting a company and in the process to choose both a cpa and an accounting software. Over the weeks in this newsgroup, the most recommended software appears to be MYOB. I received a trial version and it fits my needs. But I do not find a local CPA knowing it One CPA recommend Peachtree, the other one says :"I would not recommend Peachtree. For you, I prefer Creative Solution …" Who could give me some advice in this important and difficult decision ?

a third option – letting an accountant do your books initially while you concentrate on the business – it can save you a lot of grief.  All the accounting software packages (QB, Peachtree, MYOB, one write, etc) can do the job, however it takes some time/patience/detail work.  something not everyone’s cut out to do.

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Perhaps a joke is permitted on this newsgroup- A businessman is starting a corporation and needs to choose a CPA.  He asks the first CPA, "How much is two and two?"  The answer he receives is "four." "No, I don’t want you for my CPA." he says. With the second CPA it is the same story – "two and two are four." He then asks the third CPA "How much is two and two?"  "How much do you want it to be?" asks the third CPA.  "Ah!" says the businessman. "I want you for my CPA". I am starting a company and in the process to choose both a cpa and an accounting software. Over the weeks in this newsgroup, the most recommended software appears to be MYOB. I received a trial version and it fits my needs. But I do not find a local CPA knowing it One CPA recommend Peachtree, the other one says :"I would not recommend Peachtree. For you, I prefer Creative Solution …" Who could give me some advice in this important and difficult decision ?

Please note that the "Reply To" address has been modified. To reach me, use the one below. harold(at)isracom(dot)net(dot)il

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QuickBooks and Peachtree appear to be the most widely used lower-cost accounting packages out there. Find a CPA who doesn’t get all excited about your using either of them. If you run into some CPAs who hate the software you’ve probably uncovered a computer illiterate firm who will not be able to help you much in the future. Regards, Wayne I am starting a company and in the process to choose both a cpa and an accounting software. Over the weeks in this newsgroup, the most recommended software appears to be MYOB. I received a trial version and it fits my needs. But I do not find a local CPA knowing it One CPA recommend Peachtree, the other one says :"I would not recommend Peachtree. For you, I prefer Creative Solution …" Who could give me some advice in this important and difficult decision ?

Schulz Consulting http://www.s-consult.com MAS 90 Consultants Since 1986 860-295-9271

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Question:

Anyone got any ideas on accounting/market related responses to spamming?  I know, pay as you go means they won’t be worth sending…… rather mess up the idea of an open newsgroup though….

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Anyone got any ideas on accounting/market related responses to spamming?  I know, pay as you go means they won’t be worth sending…… rather mess up the idea of an open newsgroup though….

I think you’re seeing some news servers take action directly against spamming.  For instance, the news server I’m posting from runs an automated agent to remove spam from their feed before I read it. As a practical matter, that allows me to pay them for that service.  I expect we may see more "edited" sources of news as a way around spam. Alternatively, we’re also seeing more and more groups turn to moderation as a method to control spamming. — Ed Zollars, CPA                         Phoenix, AZ http://www.getnet.com/~hmtzcpas

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///edited out for brevity// |So there you have it.  Companies that use the Internet are losing |money due to spam.  Companies that do business on the Internet are |losing business due to spam. | |-Dan | |– Excellent post– would you consider buying the bulk emailer and sending this message to all spammers.  I’d contribute my share. —- —-  Firefly  -<— My tables don’t link!

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