Question:

Peronally I don’t support the suits by AOL and others because they are too broad.  People who send from bogus address and are trying to defraud should be stopped but the local pizza place, vacume shop etc should be able to use e-mail to advertise. Bill Couture

Response:

Dear All, I have Microsoft Outlook Newsreader, part of Office XP 2002 and I was wondering if the best way to block the spam senders, was to just block the spam each individual time it comes. I know that I can do this via the ‘Message’ menu and ‘Block Sender…’. Is there a more complex manner in which I can block them so that I never get sent any more completely? Sorry to ask this question here, I am new to this newsgroup system. Thank you,

Response:

I have Microsoft Outlook Newsreader, part of Office XP 2002 and I was wondering if the best way to block the spam senders, was to just block the Sorry to ask this question here, I am new to this newsgroup system.

Then I’ll try to help giving some general information that might be of interest to you. The newsgroups best discussing this dilemma include Be forewarned, though, but both those groups can be scalding at times. Furthermore: Links to Timo’s FAQ materials http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html Where do I find a complete list of Usenet newsgroups? http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/newsgrps.html How do I find the FAQ (and/or the charter) of a newsgroup? http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/wherefaq.html Foiling Spam with an Email Password System http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/spamfoil.html    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjcgi.html

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Question:

tetany[tet'unE] Pronunciation Key tetany , condition of mineral imbalance in the body that results in severe muscle spasms. Tetany occurs when the concentration of calcium ions (Ca++) in extracellular fluids such as plasma falls below normal. The nervous system becomes increasingly excitable, and nerves discharge spontaneously, sending impulses to skeletal muscles and causing spasmodic contractions. Mild tetany is characterized by tingling in the fingers, toes, and lips; acute tetany, consisting of severe muscular contractions, tremors, and cramps, can result in death. Abnormally low extracellular calcium ion concentration can result from failure of the parathyroid glands to release parathyroid hormone, the substance responsible for the regulation of calcium concentration in the body; a deficiency in vitamin D, which facilitates calcium ion absorption from the gastrointestinal tract; or alkalosis, an excessively alkaline state of body fluids resulting from persistent vomiting, rapid breathing, or excess activity of the hormone aldosterone. Most forms of tetany can be treated with calcium, vitamin D, and a controlled diet. Muscle tetany is also caused by the pathogenic bacterium Clostridium tetani in the disease tetanus. tetanus Tete The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia

Response:

VITAMIN D DEFICIENCY EMERGES AS NEW EPIDEMIC; NIH CONFERENCE CALLS FOR PUBLIC HEALTH APPROACHES TO ADDRESS GROWING PROBLEM Medical experts are talking about a new health epidemic — one that most thought was eliminated decades ago. It’s a lack of vitamin D. The surprising deficiency is increasing the risk of osteoporosis and accounting for the re-emergence of rickets in children. People make their own when sunlight hits the skin, vitamin D is also found in fortified milk. With people spending more time indoors and the frequent swapping of milk for soda, Americans aren’t getting the vitamin D they need. http://healthy.net/scr/news.asp?Id=774 www.healthy.net is my favorite alternative site-

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Question:

I believe that incorporating is generally a mistake for fledgling businesses.  Incorporation is a paper shuffling exercise and does not add value but does add time and expense in filing tax returns, paying additional fees and maintaining the minutes.  The concept of limited liability is largely theoretical: you will be required to personally guarantee any loans and if anything really bad happens, plaintiffs will allege personal negligence with or without a corporate veil.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First. let me state that I have very little knowledge of accounting practices. I have just started a small internet business in my basement.  I buy materials and process them into other products and sell them online. I have no fixed vendors and my customers are constantly changing.  I have no employees. I feel that accounting software such as Quickbooks or Peachtree is overkill for my small business which will be around 5-10K per year. Especially since I have no permanent accounts – either payable or recievable. I have been tracking my expenses and sales in an Excel Spreadsheet.  I am told that I can take tax deductions such as phone lines, vehicles, electricity, computer, etc.. Some questions I have are: Do I really need acounting software or can I just use my expense and sales records for tax purposes?

At this point probably not, but good accounting records often reduce professional fees. Should I incorporate?

Depends, I would seek the advice of an attorney. Can I deduct business expenses without incorporating?

Yes. What advice do you offer to save me tax dollars?

Seek the help of a tax professional. About how much would a CPA charge to advise me?

Depends on the CPA. Fees can range from $45 to $350 per hour. About how much would a CPA charge to handle all my accounting needs?

This really depends on the level of service rendered and in big part to how well you keep your records. I have some clients that have very small businesses and if their records are clear and well organized the inclusion of a schedule C on their personal tax return can in some instances only result in a $50 increase in the cost to prepare the return. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lucky

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(1) You don’t need accounting software but it would eliminate the need

<snipped for brevity (3) You can deduct legitimate business expenses from your personal income tax filing using several additional forms/schedules including Schedule C.  Just make sure that you save EVERYTHING (receipts, invoices, bank records, etc.) related to your business activities.

<snipped for brevity I would also recommend keeping accurate vehicle records, especially mileage. Keep track of total miles driven, and how many driven for business purposes. — Stephanie Serba, AICIA Partner, Durham Business Outsource Accounting & Technology www.dbo.ca

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I’m not sure you wouldn’t find Peachtree or Quickbooks easier to maintain then a spreadsheet.  While the single user lowest version of each is pretty little you probably fit it.  I prefer Peachtree as it requires more  disipline. Quickbooks tends to let you do anything, so it usually means you need a CPA to fix the data. One suggestion know one has made is to go to a good book store and pickup an accounting for non-accountants book.  Most cost under $20.  I think there is one in the Dummys series.  Reading that is going to give you a lot of answers. One of which might be is a bookkeeper necessary.   Considering all the hassels your getting yourself another question might be if you can’t grow your business is it worth it? Bill Couture

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(1) You don’t need accounting software but it would eliminate the need for an accountant to "clean up" your financial position should your business develop to a larger scale.  My advice is that if you expect that you will continue to develop your business that you invest in a very low end records system that allows you to track business expenses through your checkbook. (2)  Incorporation adds additional levels of record keeping responsibility.  Without knowing more about your product or processes I can only speak in generalities.  Generally incorporation is done to shield the owner(s) from personal liability of debts incurred in the course of business, hence the term "corporate shield". Many states require additional filings, taxes (franchise taxes, for example), and fees for a corporation on an annual basis. (3) You can deduct legitimate business expenses from your personal income tax filing using several additional forms/schedules including Schedule C.  Just make sure that you save EVERYTHING (receipts, invoices, bank records, etc.) related to your business activities. (4)  CPA fees vary according to the location and scope of the engagement. (5) You don’t necessarily need a CPA for compliling your financial information.  An experienced tax consultant is probably more valuable to you at the moment. Keep this in mind if you intend to continue to pursue this business and grow it into a substantial endeavor:  it is much easier and less expensive to put the accounting infrastructure in place before you grow than to try to get everything in order after you have become a full fledged business. All I ask in return for this advice is a small percentage of your first billion dollars in revenue. Good luck! DGG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First. let me state that I have very little knowledge of accounting practices. I have just started a small internet business in my basement.  I buy materials and process them into other products and sell them online. I have no fixed vendors and my customers are constantly changing.  I have no employees. I feel that accounting software such as Quickbooks or Peachtree is overkill for my small business which will be around 5-10K per year. Especially since I have no permanent accounts – either payable or recievable. I have been tracking my expenses and sales in an Excel Spreadsheet.  I am told that I can take tax deductions such as phone lines, vehicles, electricity, computer, etc.. Some questions I have are: Do I really need acounting software or can I just use my expense and sales records for tax purposes? Should I incorporate? Can I deduct business expenses without incorporating? What advice do you offer to save me tax dollars? About how much would a CPA charge to advise me? About how much would a CPA charge to handle all my accounting needs? Lucky

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]First. let me state that I have very little knowledge of accounting ]practices. Sounds like me. <snip ]I have been tracking my expenses and sales in an Excel Spreadsheet.  I ]am told that I can take tax deductions such as phone lines, vehicles, ]electricity, computer, etc.. Yes, Excel is fine if you set it up right. You need to know what accounts to set up and what to book to those accounts. You can use Excel macros to give you ytd, some month last year, budget and variances. Make sure you back your data up. CDs are good, and store your most recent backup cd somewhere outside your home – bank, friends place, whatever. ]Some questions I have are: ] ]Do I really need acounting software or can I just use my expense and ]sales records for tax purposes? Keep every single receipt, docket, cheque stub, e-mail, bank statement, etc. Keep the originals for two years, then scan them and keep them on cd. ]Should I incorporate? You should consider it. It will require extra book-keeping but also offers some personal protection. I went through getting a small business incorporated, and it was quite a procedure. It was worth it for us. <snip

Response:

First. let me state that I have very little knowledge of accounting practices. I have just started a small internet business in my basement.  I buy materials and process them into other products and sell them online. I have no fixed vendors and my customers are constantly changing.  I have no employees. I feel that accounting software such as Quickbooks or Peachtree is overkill for my small business which will be around 5-10K per year. Especially since I have no permanent accounts – either payable or recievable. I have been tracking my expenses and sales in an Excel Spreadsheet.  I am told that I can take tax deductions such as phone lines, vehicles, electricity, computer, etc.. Some questions I have are: Do I really need acounting software or can I just use my expense and sales records for tax purposes? Should I incorporate? Can I deduct business expenses without incorporating? What advice do you offer to save me tax dollars? About how much would a CPA charge to advise me? About how much would a CPA charge to handle all my accounting needs? Lucky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First. let me state that I have very little knowledge of accounting practices. I have just started a small internet business in my basement.  I buy materials and process them into other products and sell them online. I have no fixed vendors and my customers are constantly changing.  I have no employees. I feel that accounting software such as Quickbooks or Peachtree is overkill for my small business which will be around 5-10K per year. Especially since I have no permanent accounts – either payable or recievable. I have been tracking my expenses and sales in an Excel Spreadsheet.  I am told that I can take tax deductions such as phone lines, vehicles, electricity, computer, etc.. Some questions I have are: Do I really need acounting software or can I just use my expense and sales records for tax purposes? Should I incorporate? Can I deduct business expenses without incorporating? What advice do you offer to save me tax dollars? About how much would a CPA charge to advise me? About how much would a CPA charge to handle all my accounting needs? Lucky

even though your business is small it will benefit you to see a local accountant, it does not have to be a CPA but someone with experience in working with small businesses.  Probably an excel worksheet will be adequate for your needs but to save on taxes next year by taking "home office deductions" or incorporating (probably not necessary) you should call around locally for a free initial consultation to discuss these issues.

Response:

Question:

What? Can’t remember all their names? Well, maybe next time they sail in, you’ll get more memory practice. I’m sure they remember ‘that kate

Kate, when you meet as many folks as me and Brenda, names and faces blur. You should get out more often. Will

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Blenda" tried BS-ing a *newbie*: As a newbie, i would just like to make a point. i’ve been lurking here for quite a while to learn the ins and outs of this ng. that included seeing what kind of discussion is the norm here and THE PEOPLE who post. my opinions of the regular posters here are based soley on what that particular person posts, (content, personality and attitude). my opinion of brenda is my own and i will not start flaming her just to join the IN crowd. you can see my response to her in my greeting post for proof. however, if she or anyone starts talking down to me or trying to take up a post as "TEACHER" over me, then i feel justified in responding in kind. the only one who can show others what a person is really like is the person themself. and it is totally reflected in their writings to the group. royake ***Hello Royake…to myself being a teacher does not in the least make someone below you or any such thing. I have always figured that anyone and anything can teach.     This goes far in accounting for your inabilities, Blenda. ***I have two students and they teach me constantly.     You have no "students" since you do not _teach_.  You are no student since you have failed to learn. *** If someone does not want what they think is "lorded over teaching"…all they have to do is say "no thanks" to me is all.     You want politeness after your condescension?  Okay, please ram your "ravenings" back up your bum, if you would be so kind.  Howzzat? ***When someone throws back something that is given in love I am hoping that they will at least understand and appreciate the spirit in which it is given. I can’t understand the need in some to spew insult however.     You know, it does seem as if you cannot truly understand the reaction to the way you present yourself.  Consider the huge blindspot which that self-delusion of yours creates.  Now, consider it again.  ::Spring arrives:: And again.  ::now it’s Summer::   And yet again. *** I don’t feel that you can be talked down to unless you really feel yourself as below someone.     Which explains your martyrdom and inferiority complexes.   Wow, I coulda been a shrink! *** Since I don’t think I am better than anyone else…it is their own way of understanding that makes them feel I am talking down to them I would reckon.     Blenda, the way you post comes off as "superior".  You are correct in that _You_ are not superior.  Now, the way I post to you comes off as superior due to my not being as dense as you.  See the distinction? *** To myself, everyone is on a road to enlightenment….some are there ahead of others in some departments..but below in others that does not make anyone better or lesser….it just *is*     I have yet to see any post of yours which shows any "department" in which you are ahead of … anyone … on any path.  Maybe you mean behind you at the cash register in the department store? *** (my opinion obviously and I don’t ask anyone to agree..just hear me out hopefully). Anyway….I have blathered on enough in this post.     Every post you make removes any residual doubts about you, Blenda. Keep posting while the fog closes in.     Hey, I replied to your post.  Got the guts to respond?     Nope – didn’t think so.  [I'm fargin' psychic!] Trevor (Steady Eye of Falcon) N. Blendings, Brenda

Response:

"Blenda" tried BS-ing a *newbie*: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a newbie, i would just like to make a point. i’ve been lurking here for quite a while to learn the ins and outs of this ng. that included seeing what kind of discussion is the norm here and THE PEOPLE who post. my opinions of the regular posters here are based soley on what that particular person posts, (content, personality and attitude). my opinion of brenda is my own and i will not start flaming her just to join the IN crowd. you can see my response to her in my greeting post for proof. however, if she or anyone starts talking down to me or trying to take up a post as "TEACHER" over me, then i feel justified in responding in kind. the only one who can show others what a person is really like is the person themself. and it is totally reflected in their writings to the group. royake ***Hello Royake…to myself being a teacher does not in the least make someone below you or any such thing. I have always figured that anyone and anything can teach.

    This goes far in accounting for your inabilities, Blenda. ***I have two students and they teach me constantly.

    You have no "students" since you do not _teach_.  You are no student since you have failed to learn. *** If someone does not want what they think is "lorded over teaching"…all they have to do is say "no thanks" to me is all.

    You want politeness after your condescension?  Okay, please ram your "ravenings" back up your bum, if you would be so kind.  Howzzat? ***When someone throws back something that is given in love I am hoping that they will at least understand and appreciate the spirit in which it is given. I can’t understand the need in some to spew insult however.

    You know, it does seem as if you cannot truly understand the reaction to the way you present yourself.  Consider the huge blindspot which that self-delusion of yours creates.  Now, consider it again.  ::Spring arrives:: And again.  ::now it’s Summer::   And yet again. *** I don’t feel that you can be talked down to unless you really feel yourself as below someone.

    Which explains your martyrdom and inferiority complexes.   Wow, I coulda been a shrink! *** Since I don’t think I am better than anyone else…it is their own way of understanding that makes them feel I am talking down to them I would reckon.

    Blenda, the way you post comes off as "superior".  You are correct in that _You_ are not superior.  Now, the way I post to you comes off as superior due to my not being as dense as you.  See the distinction? *** To myself, everyone is on a road to enlightenment….some are there ahead of others in some departments..but below in others that does not make anyone better or lesser….it just *is*

    I have yet to see any post of yours which shows any "department" in which you are ahead of … anyone … on any path.  Maybe you mean behind you at the cash register in the department store? *** (my opinion obviously and I don’t ask anyone to agree..just hear me out hopefully). Anyway….I have blathered on enough in this post.

    Every post you make removes any residual doubts about you, Blenda.  Keep posting while the fog closes in.     Hey, I replied to your post.  Got the guts to respond?     Nope – didn’t think so.  [I'm fargin' psychic!] Trevor (Steady Eye of Falcon) N. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blendings, Brenda

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: ***hmmm Brian…okay I may know him. I know a few military witches here. That one sounds familiar but not sure. Thanks hon. Brenda I was surprised when I entered the scene of public poetry readings in 1995 how many really good poets came out of the USArmy… and likewise Warlocks, Witches and various other Occulists. From the moments I spoke with him he was very enthusiastic, a nice guy. I have to conclude that they grow ‘em good up your way, you being the sweetest Witch of all, and this dude… a lot like I would imagine you in real life. Oh! Canada! Will [7] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

***awwwwww! I am just curious as to the fact that he remembers me…and with my mundame name too! I usually go by my pagan name to other pagans here in RL. Yes judging by my brothers we do grow’em good here in Canada! ..but remember many of my ancestors hail from the South! Brenda

Response:

Well, ya gonna find your own path or continue to follow the Trolls? Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Blenda" tried BS-ing a *newbie*: As a newbie, i would just like to make a point. i’ve been lurking here  for quite a while to learn the ins and outs of this ng. that included seeing what kind of discussion is the norm here and THE PEOPLE who post. my opinions of the regular posters here are based soley on what that  particular person posts, (content, personality and attitude). my opinion of brenda is my own and i will not start flaming her just to  join the IN crowd. you can see my response to her in my greeting post for  proof. however, if she or anyone starts talking down to me or trying to take up  a post as "TEACHER" over me, then i feel justified in responding in kind. the only one who can show others what a person is really like is the  person themself. and it is totally reflected in their writings to the group. royake ***Hello Royake…to myself being a teacher does not in the least make someone below you or any such thing. I have always figured that anyone and anything can teach.     This goes far in accounting for your inabilities, Blenda. ***I have two students and they teach me constantly.     You have no "students" since you do not _teach_.  You are no student since you have failed to learn. *** If someone does not want what they think is "lorded over teaching"…all they have to do is say "no thanks" to me is all.     You want politeness after your condescension?  Okay, please ram your "ravenings" back up your bum, if you would be so kind.  Howzzat? ***When someone throws back something that is given in love I am hoping that they will at least understand and appreciate the spirit in which it is given. I can’t understand the need in some to spew insult however.     You know, it does seem as if you cannot truly understand the reaction to the way you present yourself.  Consider the huge blindspot which that self-delusion of yours creates.  Now, consider it again.  ::Spring arrives:: And again.  ::now it’s Summer::   And yet again. *** I don’t feel that you can be talked down to unless you really feel yourself as below someone.     Which explains your martyrdom and inferiority complexes.   Wow, I coulda been a shrink! *** Since I don’t think I am better than anyone else…it is their own way  of understanding that makes them feel I am talking down to them I would reckon.     Blenda, the way you post comes off as "superior".  You are correct in that _You_ are not superior.  Now, the way I post to you comes off as superior due to my not being as dense as you.  See the distinction? *** To myself, everyone is on a road to enlightenment….some are there ahead of others in some departments..but below in others that does not make anyone better or lesser….it just *is*     I have yet to see any post of yours which shows any "department" in which you are ahead of … anyone … on any path.  Maybe you mean behind you at the cash register in the department store? *** (my opinion obviously and I don’t ask anyone to agree..just hear me out hopefully). Anyway….I have blathered on enough in this post.     Every post you make removes any residual doubts about you, Blenda.  Keep posting while the fog closes in.     Hey, I replied to your post.  Got the guts to respond?     Nope – didn’t think so.  [I'm fargin' psychic!] Trevor (Steady Eye of Falcon) N. Blendings, Brenda

Response:

***hmmm Brian…okay I may know him. I know a few military witches here. That one sounds familiar but not sure. Thanks hon. Brenda

I was surprised when I entered the scene of public poetry readings in 1995 how many really good poets came out of the USArmy… and likewise Warlocks, Witches and various other Occulists. From the moments I spoke with him he was very enthusiastic, a nice guy. I have to conclude that they grow ‘em good up your way, you being the sweetest Witch of all, and this dude… a lot like I would imagine you in real life. Oh! Canada! Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: Apparently the USA & Canada have some deal in the upcoming war… I haven’t looked at the news in probably 3 months, so I dunno… but he’s here in a military capacity, they train folks here at the School of the Americas so that may relate… hopefully I’ll see the guy tommorow, at the same place… he wanted to hear some songs that we usually don’t do… some covers, Neal Young and like that… we mostly do original stuff. He seemed cool, dark hair and small glasses, named Brian… didn’t get much conversation besides the kinda short "I’m from Victoria!" "Hey, know a Brenda?" "Beautiful redhead?" "Yeah!" and then on to other agendas for us both… he to wrestle with his barracks buddies, and me to attempt a few more songs. Will [7] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis ***hmmm Brian…okay I may know him. I know a few military witches here. That one sounds familiar but not sure. Thanks hon.

What? Can’t remember all their names? Well, maybe next time they sail in, you’ll get more memory practice. I’m sure they remember ‘that kate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brenda — "There is no religion higher than truth."                     Theosophical Society.     ___|___     Tori                          Ollie   ___|___   | (_)  |  | (^)                               (^) |  | (_)  |

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: Apparently the USA & Canada have some deal in the upcoming war… I haven’t looked at the news in probably 3 months, so I dunno… but he’s here in a military capacity, they train folks here at the School of the Americas so that may relate… hopefully I’ll see the guy tommorow, at the same place… he wanted to hear some songs that we usually don’t do… some covers, Neal Young and like that… we mostly do original stuff. He seemed cool, dark hair and small glasses, named Brian… didn’t get much conversation besides the kinda short "I’m from Victoria!" "Hey, know a Brenda?" "Beautiful redhead?" "Yeah!" and then on to other agendas for us both… he to wrestle with his barracks buddies, and me to attempt a few more songs. Will [7] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

***hmmm Brian…okay I may know him. I know a few military witches here. That one sounds familiar but not sure. Thanks hon. Brenda — "There is no religion higher than truth."                     Theosophical Society.     ___|___     Tori                          Ollie   ___|___   | (_)  |  | (^)                               (^) |  | (_)  |

Response:

Apparently the USA & Canada have some deal in the upcoming war… I haven’t looked at the news in probably 3 months, so I dunno… but he’s here in a military capacity, they train folks here at the School of the Americas so that may relate… hopefully I’ll see the guy tommorow, at the same place… he wanted to hear some songs that we usually don’t do… some covers, Neal Young and like that… we mostly do original stuff. He seemed cool, dark hair and small glasses, named Brian… didn’t get much conversation besides the kinda short "I’m from Victoria!" "Hey, know a Brenda?" "Beautiful redhead?" "Yeah!" and then on to other agendas for us both… he to wrestle with his barracks buddies, and me to attempt a few more songs. Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] "Phoenix"   Organization: Road Runner – NC   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References:                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: [8] http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: victoria.tc.ca…                          Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: [8] [10] http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s) ***snip Yep! **btw*** I met a guiy at my gig last night that I suspect knows you… from Victoria. I said: beautiful redhead? He said "Yep!" ***wink*** Will [9] [11] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alevgleasonpublication ***hmmmm now I’m curious.. Brenda heheheheheee.. me too!   Was he wearing dark glasses and waving a white cane? Sorry, Brenda, I just couldn’t resist that one.. P

***He may have been. I was’nt there. I think I am okay looking..but it is up to each and every one of us however. Brenda

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – victoria.tc.ca…                          Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: [8] http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s) ***snip Yep! **btw*** I met a guiy at my gig last night that I suspect knows you… from Victoria. I said: beautiful redhead? He said "Yep!" ***wink*** Will [9] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alevgleasonpublication ***hmmmm now I’m curious.. Brenda

heheheheheee.. me too!   Was he wearing dark glasses and waving a white cane? Sorry, Brenda, I just couldn’t resist that one.. P

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 50030227 VII Merry Meet Joe, Kate! …at times there seems to be a clear chance to help somebody else who is walking the same path, and there can be a genuine expectation that the teaching role can be helpful. indeed, consensually-engaged, it can be conducive to personal growth. If you find a genuine teacher, yes, or someone who can travel along the same ‘path’ as you and learn ‘with’ you. And be open to the teaching/learning. do you think the differential can be marked? a guru/chela master/devotee type thing? I noticed a great deal of resistance to such devotional differentials in the Wiccan and greater Neopagan (as compared with, say, the Santerian or Vaisnavite) groups. I can’t say I was very drawn to it most of my life myself, though I can find it with Kali directly rather than human beings. She’s very easy with me, though, so I suspect this may be a similar experience with other Neopagans.

I’ve never considered my *real* teachers to be gurus and such. No such adolation was required. I also find a lot of my teachings through the darker goddesses. If I did find a teacher that was willing to teach me something I was intensely curious about, I don’t think I’d mind playing the ‘devotee’ for awhile. Most of my best teachers have been on a level with me, knowing somethng different. Varied paths, varied interests. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am leery of the teacher role though.  I think if somebody is in a position to teach, as opposed to mutually searching, then the value of what they say will stand out.  If it doesn’t, then maybe what seemed like an opportunity to help somebody less advanced was not what it appeared. True teachers do stand out. Many times very quietly, other times it’s very obvious. There’s no end of variety afa real teachers are concerned, which is all to the good. And if it does, there is no reason for friction. usenet put-on teachers can be problematic, though — the kind what are requiring didactic relations from the get-go, perhaps to appease their monumental egos. I’ve run into one of these in person within apparent yogic trads in which the master (a woman) didn’t inform me that our relation was to be this differentiated. it was a surprise to be greeted on the phone by her attendant, as I was preparing to travel to their location, and informed that I should bring a gift for the Interview With the Master. I have to admit I was somewhat irreverent and she didn’t like it. having felt deceived, though, I was as respectful as I felt that I could be. I just had to ask why the master sat on cushions. ;

Usenet *teacher* tend to be mostly frauds IMO and experience, unless they’re friends of mine. They don’t charge or sit on cushions to impress anyone. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – occasionally when in ritual, possessed individuals in Neopagan or trans-Neopagan trads have demanded a kind of obeisance or dutiful respect. when I knew this was to be part of the routine it was a relation that I accepted going in. when it was foisted upon me unexpectedly I sometimes challenged the ‘gods’ and stood my ground. much to my amusement, sometimes I was told by those training ritualees not to let the gods get away with too much. ; there was a half-suspicion in some cases that the possessed were not truly so, and that they used their position in rite to work out interpersonal disputes to their advantage under the guise of a deity. not seeing their investiture as truly different than my own (I often felt completely enthused by Siva during many of these rites), I didn’t need that advice to get along in rituals, but the dynamics that I did witness were at times quite heated. There are other teachers here (yes, right here in ARW). Look for them, not just flame fests. *sigh* I’d got that impression, yes. :  thanks for confirming it.

You’re welcome, but I do wish you’d see for yourself. kate blessed be!

I liked ‘Blessed Beast much better, fits you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – lorax666

Response:

You forgot to include yourself on that vapid little list, sham – man. So I added you and yer whore. Yer welcome, shitsucker.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 50030227 VII Merry Meet Joe, Kate! …at times there seems to be a clear chance to help somebody else who is walking the same path, and there can be a genuine expectation that the teaching role can be helpful. indeed, consensually-engaged, it can be conducive to personal growth. If you find a genuine teacher, yes, or someone who can travel along the same ‘path’ as you and learn ‘with’ you. And be open to the teaching/learning. do you think the differential can be marked? a guru/chela master/devotee type thing? I noticed a great deal of resistance to such devotional differentials in the Wiccan and greater Neopagan (as compared with, say, the Santerian or Vaisnavite) groups. I can’t say I was very drawn to it most of my life myself, though I can find it with Kali directly rather than human beings. She’s very easy with me, though, so I suspect this may be a similar experience with other Neopagans. I am leery of the teacher role though.  I think if somebody is in a position to teach, as opposed to mutually searching, then the value of what they say will stand out.  If it doesn’t, then maybe what seemed like an opportunity to help somebody less advanced was not what it appeared. True teachers do stand out. Many times very quietly, other times it’s very obvious. There’s no end of variety afa real teachers are concerned, which is all to the good. And if it does, there is no reason for friction. usenet put-on teachers can be problematic, though — the kind what are requiring didactic relations from the get-go, perhaps to appease their monumental egos. I’ve run into one of these in person within apparent yogic trads in which the master (a woman) didn’t inform me that our relation was to be this differentiated. it was a surprise to be greeted on the phone by her attendant, as I was preparing to travel to their location, and informed that I should bring a gift for the Interview With the Master. I have to admit I was somewhat irreverent and she didn’t like it. having felt deceived, though, I was as respectful as I felt that I could be. I just had to ask why the master sat on cushions. ; occasionally when in ritual, possessed individuals in Neopagan or trans-Neopagan trads have demanded a kind of obeisance or dutiful respect. when I knew this was to be part of the routine it was a relation that I accepted going in. when it was foisted upon me unexpectedly I sometimes challenged the ‘gods’ and stood my ground. much to my amusement, sometimes I was told by those training ritualees not to let the gods get away with too much. ; there was a half-suspicion in some cases that the possessed were not truly so, and that they used their position in rite to work out interpersonal disputes to their advantage under the guise of a deity. not seeing their investiture as truly different than my own (I often felt completely enthused by Siva during many of these rites), I didn’t need that advice to get along in rituals, but the dynamics that I did witness were at times quite heated. There are other teachers here (yes, right here in ARW). Look for them, not just flame fests. *sigh* I’d got that impression, yes. :  thanks for confirming it. blessed be! lorax666

Response:

50030227 VII Merry Meet Joe, Kate! …at times there seems to be a clear chance to help somebody else who is walking the same path, and there can be a genuine expectation that the teaching role can be helpful.

indeed, consensually-engaged, it can be conducive to personal growth. If you find a genuine teacher, yes, or someone who can travel along the same ‘path’ as you and learn ‘with’ you. And be open to the teaching/learning.

do you think the differential can be marked? a guru/chela master/devotee type thing? I noticed a great deal of resistance to such devotional differentials in the Wiccan and greater Neopagan (as compared with, say, the Santerian or Vaisnavite) groups. I can’t say I was very drawn to it most of my life myself, though I can find it with Kali directly rather than human beings. She’s very easy with me, though, so I suspect this may be a similar experience with other Neopagans. I am leery of the teacher role though.  I think if somebody is in a position to teach, as opposed to mutually searching, then the value of what they say will stand out.  If it doesn’t, then maybe what seemed like an opportunity to help somebody less advanced was not what it appeared. True teachers do stand out. Many times very quietly, other times it’s very obvious. There’s no end of variety afa real teachers are concerned, which is all to the good. And if it does, there is no reason for friction.

usenet put-on teachers can be problematic, though — the kind what are requiring didactic relations from the get-go, perhaps to appease their monumental egos. I’ve run into one of these in person within apparent yogic trads in which the master (a woman) didn’t inform me that our relation was to be this differentiated. it was a surprise to be greeted on the phone by her attendant, as I was preparing to travel to their location, and informed that I should bring a gift for the Interview With the Master. I have to admit I was somewhat irreverent and she didn’t like it. having felt deceived, though, I was as respectful as I felt that I could be. I just had to ask why the master sat on cushions. ; occasionally when in ritual, possessed individuals in Neopagan or trans-Neopagan trads have demanded a kind of obeisance or dutiful respect. when I knew this was to be part of the routine it was a relation that I accepted going in. when it was foisted upon me unexpectedly I sometimes challenged the ‘gods’ and stood my ground. much to my amusement, sometimes I was told by those training ritualees not to let the gods get away with too much. ; there was a half-suspicion in some cases that the possessed were not truly so, and that they used their position in rite to work out interpersonal disputes to their advantage under the guise of a deity. not seeing their investiture as truly different than my own (I often felt completely enthused by Siva during many of these rites), I didn’t need that advice to get along in rituals, but the dynamics that I did witness were at times quite heated. There are other teachers here (yes, right here in ARW). Look for them, not just flame fests. *sigh*

I’d got that impression, yes. :  thanks for confirming it. blessed be! lorax666

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I don’t mind my name being on the list much…however being that I am not a troll it seems misrepresentative to have my name on that list. Perhaps if you had a non-troll list it would apply." Blessings Brenda Brenda, being on the list in some ways is good, since you’re listed as the most viciously attacked by these scoundrells. As this list becomes more well know, and I’ve a hunch Usenet posters wil —or should— go there by the millions, and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs", Brenda Kent will more easily be recognisable as the object of uncalled for persecution when "newbies" join the ngs. This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch. ***imo*** ***wink*** Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

Oh, cool. Than we could be sure newbies are adequately warned about how bad your poetry is. — theoneflasehaddock Offender of the Faith. A reel Troll. Merry Plonk. Don’t like my postings? post and whine about it. EYE PLAY WIF PHISHEZZ LYKE SACQUE J00STEAU!

Response:

 and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs",

As long as I maintain the a.p FAQ no poster name will be listed, because of thier posts or posts about them.  It certainly is posible that a regular poster might be named in the FAQ as being a resource or contributor to the FAQ (former posters certainly are named as contributors and prehaps a few still lurk). — Want a new group FAQs http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/ncreate.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                          Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s) "I don’t mind my name being on the list much…however being that I am not a troll it seems misrepresentative to have my name on that list. Perhaps if you had a non-troll list it would apply." Blessings Brenda Brenda, being on the list in some ways is good, since you’re listed as the most viciously attacked by these scoundrells. As this list becomes more well know, and I’ve a hunch Usenet posters wil —or should— go there by the millions, and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs", Brenda Kent will more easily be recognisable as the object of uncalled for persecution when "newbies" join the ngs. This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch. ***imo*** ***wink*** Will

***makes sense. Brenda

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                          Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s) "I don’t mind my name being on the list much…however being that I am not a troll it seems misrepresentative to have my name on that list. Perhaps if you had a non-troll list it would apply." Blessings Brenda Brenda, being on the list in some ways is good, since you’re listed as the most viciously attacked by these scoundrells. As this list becomes more well know, and I’ve a hunch Usenet posters wil —or should— go there by the millions, and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs", Brenda Kent will more easily be recognisable as the object of uncalled for persecution when "newbies" join the ngs. This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch. ***imo*** ***wink*** Will ***makes sense. Brenda

Yep! **btw*** I met a guiy at my gig last night that I suspect knows you… from Victoria. I said: beautiful redhead? He said "Yep!" ***wink*** Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alevgleasonpublication

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: victoria.tc.ca…                          Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] Will Dockery   Organization: [8] http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)

***snip Yep! **btw*** I met a guiy at my gig last night that I suspect knows you… from Victoria. I said: beautiful redhead? He said "Yep!" ***wink*** Will [9] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alevgleasonpublication

***hmmmm now I’m curious.. Brenda

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I don’t mind my name being on the list much…however being that I am not a troll it seems misrepresentative to have my name on that list. Perhaps if you had a non-troll list it would apply." Blessings Brenda Brenda, being on the list in some ways is good, since you’re listed as the most viciously attacked by these scoundrells. As this list becomes more well know, and I’ve a hunch Usenet posters wil —or should— go there by the millions, and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs", Brenda Kent will more easily be recognisable as the object of uncalled for persecution when "newbies" join the ngs. This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch. ***imo*** ***wink***

As a newbie, i would just like to make a point. i’ve been lurking here for quite a while to learn the ins and outs of this ng. that included seeing what kind of discussion is the norm here and THE PEOPLE who post. my opinions of the regular posters here are based soley on what that particular person posts, (content, personality and attitude). my opinion of brenda is my own and i will not start flaming her just to join the IN crowd. you can see my response to her in my greeting post for proof. however, if she or anyone starts talking down to me or trying to take up a post as "TEACHER" over me, then i feel justified in responding in kind. the only one who can show others what a person is really like is the person themself. and it is totally reflected in their writings to the group. royake – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                        Re: Brenda: being on the list.   Reply to: [1] "Royake the Dark"   Organization: RoadRunner – Tampa Bay   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.religion.wicca,          [3] alt.pagan,          [4] alt.magick   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: "I don’t mind my name being on the list much…however being that I am not a troll it seems misrepresentative to have my name on that list. Perhaps if you had a non-troll list it would apply." Blessings Brenda Brenda, being on the list in some ways is good, since you’re listed as the most viciously attacked by these scoundrells. As this list becomes more well know, and I’ve a hunch Usenet posters wil —or should— go there by the millions, and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs", Brenda Kent will more easily be recognisable as the object of uncalled for persecution when "newbies" join the ngs. This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch. ***imo*** ***wink*** As a newbie, i would just like to make a point. i’ve been lurking here for quite a while to learn the ins and outs of this ng. that included seeing what kind of discussion is the norm here and THE PEOPLE who post. my opinions of the regular posters here are based soley on what that particular person posts, (content, personality and attitude). my opinion of brenda is my own and i will not start flaming her just to join the IN crowd. you can see my response to her in my greeting post for proof. however, if she or anyone starts talking down to me or trying to take up a post as "TEACHER" over me, then i feel justified in responding in kind. the only one who can show others what a person is really like is the person themself. and it is totally reflected in their writings to the group. royake Will [8] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

***Hello Royake…to myself being a teacher does not in the least make someone below you or any such thing. I have always figured that anyone and anything can teach. I have two students and they teach me constantly. If someone does not want what they think is "lorded over teaching"…all they have to do is say "no thanks" to me is all. When someone throws back something that is given in love I am hoping that they will at least understand and appreciate the spirit in which it is given. I can’t understand the need in some to spew insult however. I don’t feel that you can be talked down to unless you really feel yourself as below someone. Since I don’t think I am better than anyone else…it is their own way of understanding that makes them feel I am talking down to them I would reckon. To myself, everyone is on a road to enlightenment….some are there ahead of others in some departments..but below in others that does not make anyone better or lesser….it just *is* (my opinion obviously and I don’t ask anyone to agree..just hear me out hopefully). Anyway….I have blathered on enough in this post. Blessings Brenda

Response:

As a newbie, i would just like to make a point. i’ve been lurking here for quite a while to learn the ins and outs of this ng. that included seeing what kind of discussion is the norm here and THE PEOPLE who post. my opinions of the regular posters here are based soley on what that particular person posts, (content, personality and attitude).

As is only right. Welcome to the fray BTW my opinion of brenda is my own and i will not start flaming her just to join the IN crowd.

No one expects anyone to ‘join in’ with any In Crowd, fer gawds sakes. We all have our own reasons for this. Look, read, listen, come to your own conclusions like the others have. you can see my response to her in my greeting post for proof. however, if she or anyone starts talking down to me or trying to take up a post as "TEACHER" over me, then i feel justified in responding in kind. the only one who can show others what a person is really like is the person themself. and it is totally reflected in their writings to the group.

So, you agree there can definitely be ‘personality’ and ‘tone’ in a posters words? Aye, I tend to agree with you there. When you find a teacher, the teacher finds you. That’s an interesting point. I don’t know Brenda and don’t mean to agree or disagree with your particular characterization of her (I am not ‘in’ this newsgroup … one isn’t really ‘in’ a newsgroup, posts to a group will sometimes go to multiple groups) but there are times in a newsgroup that somebody will, sometimes arrogantly, take on the role of ‘teacher’.  Often this is really offensive and presumptious, or worse, while formally a ‘teaching’ kind of relationship, the presumed ‘teacher’ is really presenting their own opinions as being inherently superior, so it’s really not a teaching relationship at all, but just another usenet soapbox.

By George, I think you’ve Got it Joe! Her arrogance and condescension isn’t the sign of a *teacher*. She uses the medium merely as a soapbox for herself and her egotism. Thanks for pointing this out. And yet, as Brenda pointed out in what seemed a very insightful reply to this post, at times there seems to be a clear chance to help somebody else who is walking the same path, and there can be a genuine expectation that the teaching role can be helpful.

If you find a genuine teacher, yes, or someone who can travel along the same ‘path’ as you and learn ‘with’ you. And be open to the teaching/learning. Certainly at times it can be hard to tell the difference.

Very true. I am leery of the teacher role though.  I think if somebody is in a position to teach, as opposed to mutually searching, then the value of what they say will stand out.  If it doesn’t, then maybe what seemed like an opportunity to help somebody less advanced was not what it appeared.

True teachers do stand out. Many times very quietly, other times it’s very obvious. There’s no end of variety afa real teachers are concerned, which is all to the good. And if it does, there is no reason for friction.

In Brenda’s case, there’s cause for friction. She’s a troll looking for attention. Search alt.native, starting around Nov. 8th for Brenda G. Kent, right up to the present on AP and ARW to get some background. That’s if you want to do your own work, and not just ask for proof that draws more flames than it’s really worth. I would suggest cat do that also, since she seems to think Brenda’s being flamed for no reason. And may I ask you to read Whole threads, not just Brenda’s replies or the replies to her? There are other teachers here (yes, right here in ARW). Look for them, not just flame fests. *sigh* kate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Joe Cosby http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com More evil means more Christ. – Zosodada

Response:

As a newbie, i would just like to make a point. i’ve been lurking here for quite a while to learn the ins and outs of this ng. that included seeing what kind of discussion is the norm here and THE PEOPLE who post. my opinions of the regular posters here are based soley on what that particular person posts, (content, personality and attitude). my opinion of brenda is my own and i will not start flaming her just to join the IN crowd. you can see my response to her in my greeting post for proof. however, if she or anyone starts talking down to me or trying to take up a post as "TEACHER" over me, then i feel justified in responding in kind. the only one who can show others what a person is really like is the person themself. and it is totally reflected in their writings to the group.

That’s an interesting point. I don’t know Brenda and don’t mean to agree or disagree with your particular characterization of her (I am not ‘in’ this newsgroup … one isn’t really ‘in’ a newsgroup, posts to a group will sometimes go to multiple groups) but there are times in a newsgroup that somebody will, sometimes arrogantly, take on the role of ‘teacher’.  Often this is really offensive and presumptious, or worse, while formally a ‘teaching’ kind of relationship, the presumed ‘teacher’ is really presenting their own opinions as being inherently superior, so it’s really not a teaching relationship at all, but just another usenet soapbox. And yet, as Brenda pointed out in what seemed a very insightful reply to this post, at times there seems to be a clear chance to help somebody else who is walking the same path, and there can be a genuine expectation that the teaching role can be helpful. Certainly at times it can be hard to tell the difference. I am leery fo the teacher role though.  I think if somebody is in a position to teach, as opposed to mutually searching, then the value of what they say will stand out.  If it doesn’t, then maybe what seemed like an opportunity to help somebody less advanced was not what it appeared. And if it does, there is no reason for friction. — Joe Cosby http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com More evil means more Christ. – Zosodada

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I don’t mind my name being on the list much…however being that I am not a troll it seems misrepresentative to have my name on that list. Perhaps if you had a non-troll list it would apply." Blessings Brenda Brenda, being on the list in some ways is good, since you’re listed as the most viciously attacked by these scoundrells. As this list becomes more well know, and I’ve a hunch Usenet posters wil —or should— go there by the millions, and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs", Brenda Kent will more easily be recognisable as the object of uncalled for persecution when "newbies" join the ngs. This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch. ***imo*** ***wink*** Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis Oh, cool. Than we could be sure newbies are adequately warned about how bad your poetry is.

I think they can figure that out without any help from you! They’re welcome to check it out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ironywaves

Response:

…This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch.  

that *is* the idea behind it, yes. : blessed be! lorax666

Response:

"I don’t mind my name being on the list much…however being that I am not a troll it seems misrepresentative to have my name on that list. Perhaps if you had a non-troll list it would apply." Blessings Brenda Brenda, being on the list in some ways is good, since you’re listed as the most viciously attacked by these scoundrells. As this list becomes more well know, and I’ve a hunch Usenet posters wil —or should— go there by the millions, and in fact it should be a part of "alt.pagan FAQs", Brenda Kent will more easily be recognisable as the object of uncalled for persecution when "newbies" join the ngs. This list might steer many people away from being caught in the sway of this bunch. ***imo*** ***wink*** Will http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temple_ofisis

Response:

Question:

The NV4500 has trouble behind the standard Cummins engine (5th gear comes off and the main shaft breaks if the engine is "turned up") and is not strong enough to stand up to the high-output (HO) Cummins or the Duramax.  I was told that GMC uses a Getrag transmission, the same as Ford.  It is a sturdy transmission, but rather clunky to shift.  The clutch on the Ford is very stiff, I don’t know about the GMC.  Dodge’s clutch is very light in comparison.

Dodge used the Getrags clear up untill ‘93 I believe, and this tranny was certainly strong enough in my ‘90 Cummins.  It stood up behind it even after putting in bigger injectors, bigger turbo housing, and turning up the pump slightly. — Tony Kimmell Normal, IL "I think that’s how Chicago got started.  A bunch of people in New York said, Gee, I’m enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn’t cold enough. Let’s go west.’" -Richard Jeni

Response:

One mistake in the below: For 2003 the Dodge/Cummins has been upgraded to common-rail fuel injection and should get better fuel economy than my truck, while having more power, less noise, and less pollution.  The GMC/Isuzu (Duramax) already has common-rail, accounting for its ability to get decent fuel economy inspite of having an automatic transmission. The NV4500 has trouble behind the standard Cummins engine (5th gear comes off and the main shaft breaks if the engine is "turned up") and is not strong enough to stand up to the high-output (HO) Cummins or the Duramax.  I was told that GMC uses a Getrag transmission, the same as Ford.  It is a sturdy transmission, but rather clunky to shift.  The clutch on the Ford is very stiff, I don’t know about the GMC.  Dodge’s clutch is very light in comparison.  The Dodge comes with an option for a NV5600 6spd transmission, which is what I have.  IIRC, I’ve been told the following numbers NV4600: max torque 460 ft-lbs NV5600: max torque 560 ft-lbs Getrag (5spd?): max torque 540 ft-lbs For whatever reason the NV5600 has a cast iron case, making it exceptionally heavy.  I was told that it weighs in at 450lbs (about the same as a V10 engine), compared to the NV4500 at 250lbs. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just curious here about your comment to avoid the GMC/manual combo. I thought GM was using the same NV4500HD (the 5 speed manual) that has been quite reliable behind the Cummins, just with different gear ratios. Or did they change behind the new Duramax?  Bad clutches mabey? My 2000 Dodge-Cummins 2500 4×4 Quad Cab long bed 6spd with 3.54 gears gets 20mpg empty at 65mph and 14mpg with my Bigfoot 1500 camper on it, also at 65mph.  If I slow down to 55mph with the camper on, the mileage jumps to 15.5mpg.  If I speed up to 70mph, it drops to 12.5mpg.  All numbers at mild summer temps and near sea level. Get a diesel, performance and mileage relative to a gas engine get better with altitude.  Mileage will be a bit worse if you get a dually, and a bit worse again if you get the Ford-Navistar rather than GMC or Dodge. Automatics make things worse still; but the GMC-Isuzu/auto combination seems to get about the same fuel economy as the Dodge-Cummins/manual combination (the Ford-Navistar gets worse fuel economy than either).  You don’t want the GMC/manual or the Dodge/auto combinations; both have problems (hard to shift and unreliable, respectively). If you are picky about such things, be aware that you need a one-ton dually to carry most self contained slide in campers and stay under the GVWR. The extra 500lbs associated with a diesel engine makes this worse.  The 2003 Dodge dually has the highest GVWR, now at 12000lbs. —

Response:

Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed.   I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work.   Any experience you guys could/would share? Thanks in advance, Pat

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed. I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work. Any experience you guys could/would share? Thanks in advance, Pat

My experience is gas, around 12 MPG, Diesel around 18-20MPG. My newest one is an ‘84 though, so current mileage’s may be higher. As for the camper it will haul it better than a 1/2 ton would, the stronger springs and larger, higher ply tires make it more stable. I personally run 10 ply tires and air them up to 80 PSI when I haul my camper, tried it with 8 plies at 65 one year and it was not nearly as stable as normal. Also my interstate fuel mileage was cut in half when I had the camper on, the extra wind resistance at high speed is murder. My next slide in will be a pop-up for that reason. Good luck.

Response:

Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed.   I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work.   Any experience you guys could/would share? Thanks in advance, the weight rating of a truck has little to do with the gas mileage, you can get a durango or a  ram 1500, 2500 or a 3500 with a 360, say they all have the same gear ratio and tires and options, the mileage will vary little, they all will be bad, such is life with a full size truck, with just about any full size truck with a gas motor, if you get 15mpg on a good day then your doing good, my v-10 gets 10-12mpg on good days, which actually is sometimes better than my friend gets with his 360 durango,  the cummins is by far much better on mileage, almost double in some cases, but the trade off if the initial extra cost up front, if you plan on using a slide in camper, you will most certainly need a 2500 or 3500, those things can be quite heavy 79 T/A WS6 455 ,Hurst 4 spd, Blk w/ t-tops, Heavily Fortified, 4mpg(well, it sure seems that way!) 00 Ram 2500HD QC V-10 4×4,Blk,5 spd,4:10 LSD, 10mpg 98 Intruder 1400, Blk, 5 spd, 25mpg

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just curious here about your comment to avoid the GMC/manual combo. I thought GM was using the same NV4500HD (the 5 speed manual) that has been quite reliable behind the Cummins, just with different gear ratios. Or did they change behind the new Duramax?  Bad clutches mabey? My 2000 Dodge-Cummins 2500 4×4 Quad Cab long bed 6spd with 3.54 gears gets 20mpg empty at 65mph and 14mpg with my Bigfoot 1500 camper on it, also at 65mph.  If I slow down to 55mph with the camper on, the mileage jumps to 15.5mpg.  If I speed up to 70mph, it drops to 12.5mpg.  All numbers at mild summer temps and near sea level. Get a diesel, performance and mileage relative to a gas engine get better with altitude.  Mileage will be a bit worse if you get a dually, and a bit worse again if you get the Ford-Navistar rather than GMC or Dodge. Automatics make things worse still; but the GMC-Isuzu/auto combination seems to get about the same fuel economy as the Dodge-Cummins/manual combination (the Ford-Navistar gets worse fuel economy than either).  You don’t want the GMC/manual or the Dodge/auto combinations; both have problems (hard to shift and unreliable, respectively). If you are picky about such things, be aware that you need a one-ton dually to carry most self contained slide in campers and stay under the GVWR. The extra 500lbs associated with a diesel engine makes this worse.  The 2003 Dodge dually has the highest GVWR, now at 12000lbs. —

As I understand it the Dodge Cummins with Manual Trans has a 6 speed manual.  The shared trans is a 5 speed and isn’t quite as tough as the Dodge 6 speed version.  Off the top of my head it’s the 6500 and not the 4500 but I could be wrong on the number.  The poster reccomending the auto has this newer transmission.

Response:

just curious here about your comment to avoid the GMC/manual combo. I thought GM was using the same NV4500HD (the 5 speed manual) that has been quite reliable behind the Cummins, just with different gear ratios. Or did they change behind the new Duramax?  Bad clutches mabey?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My 2000 Dodge-Cummins 2500 4×4 Quad Cab long bed 6spd with 3.54 gears gets 20mpg empty at 65mph and 14mpg with my Bigfoot 1500 camper on it, also at 65mph.  If I slow down to 55mph with the camper on, the mileage jumps to 15.5mpg.  If I speed up to 70mph, it drops to 12.5mpg.  All numbers at mild summer temps and near sea level. Get a diesel, performance and mileage relative to a gas engine get better with altitude.  Mileage will be a bit worse if you get a dually, and a bit worse again if you get the Ford-Navistar rather than GMC or Dodge. Automatics make things worse still; but the GMC-Isuzu/auto combination seems to get about the same fuel economy as the Dodge-Cummins/manual combination (the Ford-Navistar gets worse fuel economy than either).  You don’t want the GMC/manual or the Dodge/auto combinations; both have problems (hard to shift and unreliable, respectively). If you are picky about such things, be aware that you need a one-ton dually to carry most self contained slide in campers and stay under the GVWR. The extra 500lbs associated with a diesel engine makes this worse.  The 2003 Dodge dually has the highest GVWR, now at 12000lbs. —

Response:

You must be driving that SD downhill.  I drive an F-350 SD, V-10 and the best it gets is 11 hwy and 6 in town. ANd that is not towing anything.

Do you have an auto or 6sp?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed. I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work. I live down in Durango and have a 2002 Ford SuperDuty F250 Lariat 4×4 crewcab, shortbed with the V10, 6sp, and 4.30’s and have been getting about 14.5-15mpg empty and about 10-12 towing my 23′ boat (heavier cuddy cabin with a big block).  Much better than I thought I would get!  YMMV. Dale Anderson Durango, Colorado

Dale Anderson Durango, Colorado

Response:

My 2000 Dodge-Cummins 2500 4×4 Quad Cab long bed 6spd with 3.54 gears gets 20mpg empty at 65mph and 14mpg with my Bigfoot 1500 camper on it, also at 65mph.  If I slow down to 55mph with the camper on, the mileage jumps to 15.5mpg.  If I speed up to 70mph, it drops to 12.5mpg.  All numbers at mild summer temps and near sea level. Get a diesel, performance and mileage relative to a gas engine get better with altitude.  Mileage will be a bit worse if you get a dually, and a bit worse again if you get the Ford-Navistar rather than GMC or Dodge. Automatics make things worse still; but the GMC-Isuzu/auto combination seems to get about the same fuel economy as the Dodge-Cummins/manual combination (the Ford-Navistar gets worse fuel economy than either).  You don’t want the GMC/manual or the Dodge/auto combinations; both have problems (hard to shift and unreliable, respectively). If you are picky about such things, be aware that you need a one-ton dually to carry most self contained slide in campers and stay under the GVWR.  The extra 500lbs associated with a diesel engine makes this worse.  The 2003 Dodge dually has the highest GVWR, now at 12000lbs. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You must be driving that SD downhill.  I drive an F-350 SD, V-10 and the best it gets is 11 hwy and 6 in town. ANd that is not towing anything. Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed. I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work. I live down in Durango and have a 2002 Ford SuperDuty F250 Lariat 4×4 crewcab, shortbed with the V10, 6sp, and 4.30’s and have been getting about 14.5-15mpg empty and about 10-12 towing my 23′ boat (heavier cuddy cabin with a big block).  Much better than I thought I would get!  YMMV. Dale Anderson Durango, Colorado

Response:

You must be driving that SD downhill.  I drive an F-350 SD, V-10 and the best it gets is 11 hwy and 6 in town. ANd that is not towing anything.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed. I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work. I live down in Durango and have a 2002 Ford SuperDuty F250 Lariat 4×4 crewcab, shortbed with the V10, 6sp, and 4.30’s and have been getting about 14.5-15mpg empty and about 10-12 towing my 23′ boat (heavier cuddy cabin with a big block).  Much better than I thought I would get!  YMMV. Dale Anderson Durango, Colorado

Response:

I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  

My 3/4 ton Dodge truck gets between 18 and 21 mpg.  It is a Cummins Turbodiesel which is remarkably reliable, runs long and hard between maintenance stops, and sounds wonderful. Pickup truck mileage varies tremedously on several factors including driving style, mechanical specifications, terrain, 2 or 4 WD, and so forth.   Your mileage will vary, but 3/4 ton pickup trucks are great! -steve — Steven B. Cousineau,  http://www.scrye.com/~steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed.   I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work.   Any experience you guys could/would share? Thanks in advance, Pat

The biggest thing affecting your milage will be your gear ratios.  If you buy it with lower towing gears you will never get the high end of the milage’s people have given you.  Your motor has to be in it’s efficient zone for the best highway mpg.  To two your motor needs the lower gears to tow effictivly.  It’s a trade off.  If you only pull an occasional camper get highway gears.  If all you will ever do is pull a boat and lug your camper go with the towing gears.  It doesn’t hurt to have supercooling no matter what gears you get.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed.   I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work.   Any experience you guys could/would share? Thanks in advance, Pat

    You’ll definitely need the 3/4 ton chassis for that slide in camper.   The chassis rating has nothing to do with gas mileage – that depends on engine size/efficiency, gearing, tire size, etc.      On that note, for high mountain passes and heavy loads, you’ll need to plant a lot of power to the ground.  Displacement should be around 350 cubes.  Manual transmission would be better.  And at least a 3.90 rear gear.      My Dakota does great up the passes.  Denver to Frisco at 75+ mph without a problem (empty).  Moderate loads are definitely noticed, but not a strain.  I just have to downshift a little sooner.  Just wish I could have gotten the stick shift with the 5.9. — ‘97 FXDWG – Turbocharged! ‘01 Dakota Quad Cab 5.9/Auto/4×4 ‘66 Mustang Coup ‘66 Shelby Cobra Replica – Project ‘84 GMC Jimmy – Mountain Beater

Response:

Hi, I’m thinking about getting a truck and have some questions about mileage.  I live in Colorado and want to go over the various passes in the winter.  Also want to occasionally put a "slide-in" camper in the bed. I hear that a 3/4 ton would be better with the camper, but I’m not sure how much difference the mileage would be.  My feeling is that a 3/4 ton’s mileage would be bad enough to where I wouldn’t want to ride the truck to work.

I live down in Durango and have a 2002 Ford SuperDuty F250 Lariat 4×4 crewcab, shortbed with the V10, 6sp, and 4.30’s and have been getting about 14.5-15mpg empty and about 10-12 towing my 23′ boat (heavier cuddy cabin with a big block).  Much better than I thought I would get!  YMMV. Dale Anderson Durango, Colorado

Response:

Question:

Sensing that I am starting to get ‘flamed’, let me say that I AM trying to dwell on "purity" in this case.  Hence, the questions of which I appreciate useful answers very much. As someone stated in an earlier post, non-accountants usually don’t care about this stuff.  That is probably VERY true, and nobody (including the IRS) is going to care about this specific example, unless someone gets a bug up their butt about something totally unrelated and uses this as an example to further their cause. In that case, I feel that I need to make a decision that I can at least stand behind even if I am ultimately proven to be incorrect. I just want to turn this responsibility over to the next volunteer sucker, and as you said, "get on with my life". Thanks for your help.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like your example, The example is from IRS publication 225.  You like the IRS’s example. but in my case, the adjusted basis is actually higher than the FMV.  And the deal is done, so there is no re-negotiating. Your new basis is still your old basis plus boot (cash paid out in the trade). If I understand your example correctly, you are actually depreciating the original asset a second time ($2,000 of it anyway).  Is that really legal? You are not understanding it correctly. The $2,000 "adjusted" basis could also be called "undepreciated" basis. Example (mine): $8,000 Purchase price $6,000 Depreciation taken —– $2,000 Adjusted basis (undepreciated) ====== Keep in mind that this is tax – not GAAP.  This is practical – get on with your life stuff – not theoretical purity. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

Response:

<<SNIP I can get the information, however if I post it to a newsgroup I have violated a copyright and could possibly be prosecuted (not likely but possible).  If I do not post it, and you don’t have some other official source, we have what I would call a one sided conversation.

Once again I feel compelled to express the opinion that regulations – that is rules that have the force of law – should be in the public domain. The IRC doesn’t have copyright protection. Why should the rules the the SEC requires of registered corporations and their auditors be treated any differently? easy2000

Response:

Does the amount of the adjusted basis from the old asset, which is added to the basis of the new asset get depreciated at the same rate as the new asset?

For tax purposes, NO. For financial reporting, YES. easy2000

Response:

Sensing that I am starting to get ‘flamed’,

You are nowhere near being "flamed" – certainly not by me.   let me say that I AM trying to dwell on "purity" in this case.  Hence, the questions of which I appreciate useful answers very much.

<clarity snip I just want to turn this responsibility over to the next volunteer sucker, and as you said, "get on with my life".

As I see it, your two statements contradict.   Theoretical purity involves a lot of GAAP research and discussion, and a weighty explanation for your next "volunteer sucker".   Using the tax rule is easy.  You print the rule for the file, do the form 990 & hand the folder over to the next guy. A theoretical discussion is made difficult by the fact that there is no easily available GAAP resource online.   I can get the information, however if I post it to a newsgroup I have violated a copyright and could possibly be prosecuted (not likely but possible).  If I do not post it, and you don’t have some other official source, we have what I would call a one sided conversation. If you seriously want to pursue a GAAP discussion I’ll see what I can find that can be safely posted here, but it will take some time. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

I understand that part, but I wasn’t sure of the mechanics of the actual bookkeeping. For example, I am debiting depreciation every month for first asset, at say, $50.00 per month for the next 4 years.  When I trade that in, and add the adjusted basis to the new asset’s basis, which I will depreciate for 10 years, do I recalculate the remaining depreciation on the original asset to spread it over the new term, or maintain the 4 year/$50 per month plan along with the separate calculation for the new asset? To make matters worse, this occurs in four aircraft that we own.  In two of the cases, the equipment was directly replacing equipment that was being depreciated, and in the other two, the traded-in equipment was part of the overall aircraft since it was already installed in the aircraft when we purchased it. To take it a step further (and this is where it pushes the edge of the envelope (aviation jargon)), we do not depreciate (for reporting purposes) the airframe portion of the aircraft because the FMV has actually increased substantially from the time it was purchased (without any capital improvements).  This was the subject of a recent thread on this board, and I am satisfied with that decision.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  Let me see if I have this straight. For tax purposes, I continue to depreciate the traded-in asset as if it still exists.  And, the trade-in value is used to reduce the basis for the new equipment. Sort of. The total depreciation computed is on the new equipment. Part of that total is computed AS IF you still owned the old machine. Part of that total is computed AS IF you had purchased a 2nd machine for the cash payment only. Some tax preparation software apparently requires setting up two assets for the software to depreciate but that does not change the fact that you are really computing depreciation for only one asset for tax purposes. That computation is a two step process. For financial reporting, the cost of the new equipment is added to the basis of the traded-in equipment.  Is the depreciation then recalculated for both, GAAP depreciation is calculated on the total basis of the new equipment. One computation only. Either way you only have ONE asset. easy2000

Response:

I like your example,

The example is from IRS publication 225.  You like the IRS’s example. but in my case, the adjusted basis is actually higher than the FMV.  And the deal is done, so there is no re-negotiating.

Your new basis is still your old basis plus boot (cash paid out in the trade).   If I understand your example correctly, you are actually depreciating the original asset a second time ($2,000 of it anyway).  Is that really legal?

You are not understanding it correctly. The $2,000 "adjusted" basis could also be called "undepreciated" basis. Example (mine): $8,000 Purchase price $6,000 Depreciation taken —– $2,000 Adjusted basis (undepreciated) ====== Keep in mind that this is tax – not GAAP.  This is practical – get on with your life stuff – not theoretical purity. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

I like your example, but in my case, the adjusted basis is actually higher than the FMV.  And the deal is done, so there is no re-negotiating. If I understand your example correctly, you are actually depreciating the original asset a second time ($2,000 of it anyway).  Is that really legal?

You didn’t understand correctly. The total amount being depreciated on a like kind exchange is the $2,000 book value of the old tractor plus the $11,500 of cash paid or $13,500. No gain or loss is recognized on the old tractor. The total amount being depreciated by trying (unsuccessfully) to arabesque around the 1031 rules is $13,500. No gain or loss is recognized on the old tractor. easy2000

Response:

You’re correct, I mis-read the example and thought that the ‘arabesque’ was a method to improve the situation, and not an example of an unsuccessful method. I now understand the concept of a like-kind exchange, so I guess my question is more of a ‘bookkeeping’ one rather than one of ‘accounting principle’. It is: Does the amount of the adjusted basis from the old asset, which is added to the basis of the new asset get depreciated at the same rate as the new asset? Example:  The old asset, $5,000, was to be depreciated over 10 years.  Five years have gone by when the asset is replaced with a new asset valued at $10,000, to be depreciated over 10 years.  According to what I have read in this forum, I now have a basis of $12,500 to depreciate.  In depreciating this asset, do I depreciate $1,500 per year for the first five years and $1,000 for the second five years, OR simply $1,250 per year for 10 years? (assuming SL depreciation with no salvage value)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like your example, but in my case, the adjusted basis is actually higher than the FMV.  And the deal is done, so there is no re-negotiating. If I understand your example correctly, you are actually depreciating the original asset a second time ($2,000 of it anyway).  Is that really legal? You didn’t understand correctly. The total amount being depreciated on a like kind exchange is the $2,000 book value of the old tractor plus the $11,500 of cash paid or $13,500. No gain or loss is recognized on the old tractor. The total amount being depreciated by trying (unsuccessfully) to arabesque around the 1031 rules is $13,500. No gain or loss is recognized on the old tractor. easy2000

Response:

I like your example, but in my case, the adjusted basis is actually higher than the FMV.  And the deal is done, so there is no re-negotiating. If I understand your example correctly, you are actually depreciating the original asset a second time ($2,000 of it anyway).  Is that really legal?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  Let me see if I have this straight. For tax purposes, I continue to depreciate the traded-in asset as if it still exists.  And, the trade-in value is used to reduce the basis for the new equipment. Sort of. The total depreciation computed is on the new equipment. Part of that total is computed AS IF you still owned the old machine. Part of that total is computed AS IF you had purchased a 2nd machine for the cash payment only. Some tax preparation software apparently requires setting up two assets for the software to depreciate but that does not change the fact that you are really computing depreciation for only one asset for tax purposes. That computation is a two step process. For financial reporting, the cost of the new equipment is added to the basis of the traded-in equipment.  Is the depreciation then recalculated for both, GAAP depreciation is calculated on the total basis of the new equipment. One computation only. Either way you only have ONE asset. As you may know, GAAP stands for Generally Accepted Accounting Principals.

At one time the name was in fact descriptive of the underlying body of information.  It was based on a relatively small number of easy to

understand concepts, one of which was the "matching principal". Essentially, the matching principal said that revenue in a given period

should be matched with the cost related to producing that revenue.  Since capital equipment (buildings, machinery, etc.) was generally used for a number of

accounting periods, a means to ratably apply those capital costs to the cost of production was developed.  That means became know as depreciation. Over time GAAP has evolved into an extremely complex set of rules that may

or may not be based on any particular principal.  Those rules are promulgated mainly by the AICPA or one of it’s several tentacles (FASB, GASB, etc).

GAAP is copyrighted and not particularly easy to reference. Tax rules are also highly complex, but they are very public and easy to

reference.  Where the differences are not particularly material, as is often the case, practitioners sometimes use tax rules for both financial purposes and tax

purposes (with disclosure of course).  Over time we sometimes forget the specifics of the lesser-used GAAP rules. Such is the case here.  I know the GAAP rules are not the same as the tax

rules, but without doing a bit of research I cannot quote them. The following tax commentary comes from publication 225 (A tax guide for

farmers).  As tax commentary goes, it is exceptionally easy to understand. – IRS-PUB, 2001, IRS Publication No. 225, Sale and Purchase – Publication No. 225: Sale and Purchase If you sell property and buy similar property in two mutually dependent

transactions, you may have to treat the sale and purchase as a single nontaxable exchange.   Example. You used a tractor on your farm for 3 years. Its adjusted basis

is $2,000 and its FMV is $4,000. You are interested in a new tractor, which sells for $15,500. Ordinarily, you would trade your old tractor for the new one

and pay the dealer $11,500. Your basis for depreciation for the new tractor would then be $13,500 ($11,500

Question:

My-ohmy, a correction: On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 03:24:56 -0700, Tezza <tezzal…@hotmail.com> wrote: >I am not in a  gracious or tolerant mood these days.  I feel irritable >about his thing,

Make that, *this* thing.  doh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->plus!   plus!  on Tuesday I have to give a ten minute >presentation of my research paper!!!!!!!!  not happy at all about that >prospect…stress to the max.  Must be polished, w/visual aid(s), blah >blah blah.  

Response:

i hate this idea of a group research project I let myself be pulled into a group I didn’t want to be in…four of us who don’t have similar interests.  Yeah, a psychology major (me), a Romantic Era classical music major/whatever, an accountant/business major, and what’s-his-name w/o a definite major but likes current literature and current history (?).  Man-o-man.  And yes, it’s three guys (much younger than me) and me.   I am not in a  gracious or tolerant mood these days.  I feel irritable about his thing, plus!   plus!  on Tuesday I have to give a ten minute presentation of my research paper!!!!!!!!  not happy at all about that prospect…stress to the max.  Must be polished, w/visual aid(s), blah blah blah.   So, back to the group thing…we had to come up with a topic that was sort of universal.  Relationships finally came up (accounting-guy wanted and kept pushing for polygamy, but I am NOT in the mood for that dead horse)…and we ended up with "society’s effect on dating, courtship, and marriage."  So, the teacher hears this and jumps to the conclusion that we mean this society (culture) that we are living in in Utah.  Groan.  I dunno.  Yeah, sure, I can find much info on that, but it isn’t what I was really after. I hope, yes I really hope, that some surprising info will come up and change my whole (bad) attitude.  I wish that I didn’t feel discouraged about my "group-mates," and that I had a more gracious attitude toward them.  They are three decent people, but that one Mr. Polygamy Man is so opinionated and pushy, but not w/o a sense of humor.  At least he is very hard working…**think positive thoughts**  Music-boy hardly does any work at all, and for the most part is clueless…CLUELESS.  I shredded his research paper in my critique, and he actually gravitated toward me and gave out unmistakeable signals that he wanted to be in a group with me.   Like I said, I am not nice these days. Literature/history-guy gets more off focus than I do…drifting here and there.  Oh, this will be lovely!   I’m just a plump little mother hen…holding a riding crop! *whack!* get to work! *whack!*  make sense!  *whack* the polygamy horse is dead and buried already! Baaaaaaad attitude, but honestly, I think the stress of that presentation is causing a lot of it.  My paper fell short of what I was aiming for, so I have much to revise.  Doh.   And!  How the h*ll am I supposed to type out and then go get printed an overhead projection of an outline of what I’m going to talk about on Tuesday?!  It seems like such a CHORE.   Good night, good morning already. –Tez

Response:

Hi Tezza, I haven’t spoke to you for a while, so I thought I’d say ‘Hi’. Tezza wrote: > i hate this idea of a group research project > I let myself be pulled into a group I didn’t want to be in…four of > us who don’t have similar interests.  Yeah, a psychology major (me), a > Romantic Era classical music major/whatever, an accountant/business > major, and what’s-his-name w/o a definite major but likes current > literature and current history (?).  Man-o-man.  And yes, it’s three > guys (much younger than me) and me.

Wow, what a mixture of subjects. What class brings you all together? Three younger guys, eh? In different circumstances that might be fun. But sounds like you have your work cut out. > I am not in a  gracious or tolerant mood these days.  I feel irritable > about his thing, plus!   plus!  on Tuesday I have to give a ten minute > presentation of my research paper!!!!!!!!  not happy at all about that > prospect…stress to the max.  Must be polished, w/visual aid(s), blah > blah blah.

You always seem the model of patience on asp. Always helpful and giving wonderful advice. But preparing for presentations is always stressful. I find they are never quite so awful as you imagine when they finally happen. And everyone will be on your side as they dread doing them too. > So, back to the group thing…we had to come up with a topic that was > sort of universal.  Relationships finally came up (accounting-guy > wanted and kept pushing for polygamy, but I am NOT in the mood for > that dead horse)…and we ended up with "society’s effect on dating, > courtship, and marriage."  So, the teacher hears this and jumps to the > conclusion that we mean this society (culture) that we are living in > in Utah.  Groan.  I dunno.  Yeah, sure, I can find much info on that, > but it isn’t what I was really after.

Bummer, but I guess you can’t have it all your way. You’ll do a great job. > I hope, yes I really hope, that some surprising info will come up and > change my whole (bad) attitude.  I wish that I didn’t feel discouraged > about my "group-mates," and that I had a more gracious attitude toward > them.  They are three decent people, but that one Mr. Polygamy Man is > so opinionated and pushy, but not w/o a sense of humor.  At least he > is very hard working…**think positive thoughts**  Music-boy hardly > does any work at all, and for the most part is clueless…CLUELESS.  I > shredded his research paper in my critique, and he actually gravitated > toward me and gave out unmistakeable signals that he wanted to be in a > group with me.   Like I said, I am not nice these days. > Literature/history-guy gets more off focus than I do…drifting here > and there.  Oh, this will be lovely!

Yes, you said it – think positive thoughts. If you can manage that with this bunch it will be an achievement indeed. > I’m just a plump little mother hen…holding a riding crop! *whack!* > get to work! *whack!*  make sense!  *whack* the polygamy horse is dead > and buried already! > Baaaaaaad attitude, but honestly, I think the stress of that > presentation is causing a lot of it.  My paper fell short of what I > was aiming for, so I have much to revise.  Doh. > And!  How the h*ll am I supposed to type out and then go get printed > an overhead projection of an outline of what I’m going to talk about > on Tuesday?!  It seems like such a CHORE.

I’m continually impressed by all you take on, Tez. Getting out of bed is a major chore for me. I wish you all strength to succeed with this. You have shown many times you have the tenacity and fortitude to conquer much more than the average person. > Good night, good morning already. > –Tez

Good luck and cheese Kev

Response:

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:56:17 +0000, Kevin Quadling <Ke…@quadlingk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote: >Hi Tezza, >I haven’t spoke to you for a while, so I thought I’d say ‘Hi’.

Hello there,  Brian. >Wow, what a mixture of subjects. What class brings you all together?

Fate. >Three younger guys, eh? In different circumstances that might be >fun. But sounds like you have your work cut out.

*snork!*  Yeah, if I was thinner and unmarried!  Oi. >You always seem the model of patience on asp. Always helpful and >giving wonderful advice.

That’s because I get to ponder before I type, edit what I type, delete if I choose, and only when I am feeling up to it. <<grin>> >But preparing for presentations is always >stressful. I find they are never quite so awful as you imagine >when they finally happen. And everyone will be on your side as >they dread doing them too.

I know, but this semester I find myself falling below the mark a bit. Humbling, and very good for me.  I need to work hard to feel as if I’ve earned something. >Bummer, but I guess you can’t have it all your way. You’ll do a >great job.

Thanks.  It’s coming together bit by bit. >Yes, you said it – think positive thoughts. If you can manage that >with this bunch it will be an achievement indeed.

Heh, Mr. Classical Music "I haven’t done a single assignment right or on time" didn’t show up tonight for our group meeting. No surprise. >I’m continually impressed by all you take on, Tez. Getting out of >bed is a major chore for me. I wish you all strength to succeed >with this. You have shown many times you have the tenacity and >fortitude to conquer much more than the average person.

This class is making me tired.  Oh well, like I said, it’s good for me.  Thanks for the well wishes.  Now all it needs is some hard work and top-notch effort… >Good luck and cheese

**snap!**  Took your picture! –Tez

Response:

Question:

Sometimes it is tough.  I have a customer that sells a lot of stuff to WalMart.  When they say YOU WILL do EDI through the Web interface, then you do it.  Maybe you hire extra people to get it done, but you do it.    It’s all about clout. We deal with the same thing in the medical billing area.  No matter how absurd you think some of the electronic claim format requirements are, you have to do them (for example, Medicare requires that electronic claims for physician services be submitted to a different place than for durable medical equipment — and they use unrelated claim formats — stupid) or you don’t get paid.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [..] Hi Michael, thanks for your comments. I agree. OwensDirect is a remarkable accomplishment and better than a paper system. However, the same script or module that tosses the data in HTML format could generate XML just as easily.  There is little doubt on that point.  All of the leading web application platforms support XML. My initial impression was that OwensDirect should be delivering in XML and the clients should be integrating their systems more deeply. I was wrong.  There are plenty of EDI integrators and services of all kinds, providing deeper integrations. The absence of XML interface on OwensDirect suggests that OwensDirect is strictly after the users who do not want, or need, any automated interface. As such, it makes perfect sense.  I get the picture. Still, I don’t like it. People should put their foot down and tell their vendors we expect greater integration, all around, and we expect lower costs, not higher costs. Software companies that care about their work will build XML interfaces.  The rest, need to go away. http://www.gldialtone.com/MetadataPledge.htm Todd

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Michael, You might want to look at www.softrend.com for a truly integrated EDI Accounting solution. These documents I believe can also be sent over the net. Hmmm… not 100% sure though. Sandy, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Todd, I think you’re right in the effect that it doesn’t integrate into an accounting system.  I wish it did.  However, it solves an enormous problem for some small businesses that should be addressed in a forum such as this. A vast amount of the posts in this newsgroup are devoted to new and emerging technologies.  I see at least one post a day from either yourself or the tax fighting CPA (no offense intended).  It is nice to discuss the latest and greatest, but a little reality check is in order as well.  There are many small companies that are doing business the old fashioned way.  It involves a lot of paper, pens, ledger sheets and time.  You and I would love to introduce them to things like web based ledgers, etc, but the reality is they aren’t interested and won’t buy into the idea.  It may be short-sided of them, but its true nonetheless.  Many businesses are starting to lose out with larger customers and vendors because they are required to use EDI to continue with a relationship and can’t swing it.  That’s the market for www.owensdirect.com.  It doesn’t need to integrate, because they have nothing with which to integrate. I think eventually it will integrate with systems, though I’m sure they’ll want to wait out the standards folks to get things in line. Mike.

Response:

[..] Hi Michael, thanks for your comments. I agree. OwensDirect is a remarkable accomplishment and better than a paper system. However, the same script or module that tosses the data in HTML format could generate XML just as easily.  There is little doubt on that point.  All of the leading web application platforms support XML. My initial impression was that OwensDirect should be delivering in XML and the clients should be integrating their systems more deeply. I was wrong.  There are plenty of EDI integrators and services of all kinds, providing deeper integrations. The absence of XML interface on OwensDirect suggests that OwensDirect is strictly after the users who do not want, or need, any automated interface. As such, it makes perfect sense.  I get the picture. Still, I don’t like it. People should put their foot down and tell their vendors we expect greater integration, all around, and we expect lower costs, not higher costs. Software companies that care about their work will   build XML interfaces.  The rest, need to go away. http://www.gldialtone.com/MetadataPledge.htm Todd

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There is now a simple EDI package that is web based.  They don’t handle (as of yet) a wide variety of documents, but enough to get most businesses by, and adding more as clients request them. www.owensdirect.com Mike.

Response:

There is now a simple EDI package that is web based.  They don’t handle (as of yet) a wide variety of documents, but enough to get most businesses by, and adding more as clients request them. www.owensdirect.com Mike.

Thanks for the link, very interesting! Too bad it doesn’t integrate to the user’s system. Seems like just another example of systems that help automate the BIG CORPORATIONS and shift data entry to the little guy!  Please adjust my thinking if I’m being unfair. The local user would have to keypunch his/her own accounting system after performing that work for the BIGG CORPORATION in the OwensDirect interface. The OBI standard would be better than this. http://www.openbuy.org/  its pretty one-sided but has some solution for the small user. I want to see all of the invoices and other docs on OwenDirect, which are sent to the client browser, to be in standard XML such as BASDA EBIS or xCBL or CXML, with XSL or CSS etc. for visual presentation. IF that were the case, it would provide an integration path to update the local user’s accounts payable, receivable, inventory counts, etc. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, web ledgers, BSPs, ASPs, whatever it takes Free XSLT tutorial for accountants:  http://www.gldialtone.com/stupidtrickswithXSLT.htm

Response:

Todd, I think you’re right in the effect that it doesn’t integrate into an accounting system.  I wish it did.  However, it solves an enormous problem for some small businesses that should be addressed in a forum such as this. A vast amount of the posts in this newsgroup are devoted to new and emerging technologies.  I see at least one post a day from either yourself or the tax fighting CPA (no offense intended).  It is nice to discuss the latest and greatest, but a little reality check is in order as well.  There are many small companies that are doing business the old fashioned way.  It involves a lot of paper, pens, ledger sheets and time.  You and I would love to introduce them to things like web based ledgers, etc, but the reality is they aren’t interested and won’t buy into the idea.  It may be short-sided of them, but its true nonetheless.  Many businesses are starting to lose out with larger customers and vendors because they are required to use EDI to continue with a relationship and can’t swing it.  That’s the market for www.owensdirect.com.  It doesn’t need to integrate, because they have nothing with which to integrate. I think eventually it will integrate with systems, though I’m sure they’ll want to wait out the standards folks to get things in line. Mike.

Response:

Question:

Has anyone worked with a program called Construction Manager.  A client of mine uses QuickBooks and says it is not giving him detailed job costing reports which he needs. He wasn’t specific but did mention budget vs. actual in QuickBooks is awkward.  We work with QuickBooks, but am not all that familiar with the Job Costing section. My client is subdividing one lot and building 3 houses.

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    You might suggest he look at Red Wing (which I resell) which has a job costing module. It’s noticeably more than QB, but you get more.     The demo version includes job costing and is construction oriented. It can be downloaded. Luck,  Dana To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the address Visit our web site at http://www.tailored-computing.com

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The two leading products, as best I know, are American Contractor and Timberline.  Timberline is probably superior.   I think you can get a demo or trial version. Actually, most prospects don’t want detailed job cost, they want semi-automated job cost.  That is, they want the computer to do the maximum work so they can pull relevant reports with less effort. If this makes sense, I can offer a few alternative suggestions. Respectfully,  - Carl Dick 949-261-2694 www.cpaccess.com Has anyone worked with a program called Construction Manager.  A client of mine uses QuickBooks and says it is not giving him detailed job costing reports which he needs. He wasn’t specific but did mention budget vs. actual in QuickBooks is awkward.  We work with QuickBooks, but am not all that familiar with the Job Costing section. My client is subdividing one lot and building 3 houses.

- Carl Dick 949-261-2694 800-997-7944 www.cpaccess.com

Response:

Ron, I do a lot of contractors, but I am not familiar with "Construction Manager". If all your guy intends to do is subdivide one lot and build three houses, you might want to check out some of Mike Block’s workarounds and stay with QB.  It can take longer to set up a specilized system than it will take to do three houses. In case he has more serious things in mind, I’ve included a couple of useful sites. http://www.ctsguides.com/construction/body.html http://www.dirtpile.com/texis/index/Computer_Software/Accounting/ Jim Hudspeth, a Washington CPA Has anyone worked with a program called Construction Manager.  A client of mine uses QuickBooks and says it is not giving him detailed job costing reports which he needs. He wasn’t specific but did mention budget vs. actual in QuickBooks is awkward.  We work with QuickBooks, but am not all that familiar with the Job Costing section. My client is subdividing one lot and building 3 houses.

Response:

The two leading products, as best I know, are American Contractor and Timberline.  Timberline is probably superior.   I think you can get a demo or trial version.

Yes, Timberline is a GOIN CONCERN!  Very competent. I got a free demo CD the latest version this week simply by asking for it on the webpage. Todd

Response:

The two leading products, as best I know, are American Contractor and Timberline.  Timberline is probably superior.   I think you can get a demo or trial version. Yes, Timberline is a GOIN CONCERN!  Very competent. I got a free demo CD the latest version this week simply by asking for it on the webpage. Todd

Todd, I have at least one client running Timberline.  It is indeed a "goin concern" and very competent. It is also a bit expensive, both in terms of purchase and setup – not what I would recommend to a person who wants to subdivide one lot and build three houses. Best Regards, Jim Hudspeth, CPA

Response:

Question:

Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?     Susie

Done that! I found that i savaged my finger much worse when i stitched in the "sewing" method on aida for some reason.  I pretty much to stick and stab on aida now but on linen if in hand will"sew" it but it doesn’t seem to bother my finger as much.   — I never remember a name but I always forget a face!

Response:

Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?     Susie

Maybe you could try wearing a band-aid on the tip of your finger.  Just a thought. Rebecca

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you need a leather thimble!!… The only problem is that they can be difficult to find..

  No they’re not!  You just need to look at a sewing machine store or a quilting store/catalog.  (I think I’ve seen them in the quilting notions sections of Minn Fab and JoAnn’s too, but I may be mistaken.)

You’re not mistaken, JoAnn Fabrics has them.   Jill TO REPLY:  use the address in the .sig

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– Judith Truly fax: (937) 222-8309 Those are quilting thimbles, ( the leather ones) to be found at any quilting shop and lots of needlework shops. I still like band aids best. Judith

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*you need a leather thimble!! I don’t like metal ones or ceramic ones, but *my mom introduced me to leather thimbles and I do like them.. Most quilt shops carry them. You can also try the crinkly adhesive tape that is sold in drugstores–quilters use that too. I don’t like to use it for quilting because the sharp needle sticks into the tape with every stitch, but with a dull tapestry needle, the tape might be perfect. It even comes in a couple of different colors –marina

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I purchased "Tacky Dots" from an office supply store.. they stick to your finger(s) (bank tellers and accountants use them to count money/thumb through reports without licking the finger). These are great  – they do not wash off when you wash your hands (which I do frequently when stitching!) but they peel off nicely! I stick a dot on my needle-holding fingers and another on the "thimble" finger. Works great! A box costs approx 1.50 and I reuse the dots until the sticky is worn off.

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I’ve used the leather thimbles some people have suggested, and they work. However, another person’s suggestion of using "Liquid Skin" (or whatever it’s called) got me thinking: couldn’t you just put on a thin coat of Elmer’s Glue on the offending finger? I’m going to try this the next time my finger has a hole in it. Kate in IL — * Life’s too short to put up with lousy coffee. *

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There’s an interesting article in this month’s Quilter’s Newsletter Magazine about different types of thimbles and their pros and cons. I know probably not many on RCTN subscribe to a quilting mag, but you can find it at fabric stores, Michael’s or the library if you’re interested. Cathy Artigues     San Diego, California

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good luck, susan — How do eat an elephant?? One bite at a time…

I can answer this one with a recipe for Elephant Stew: 1 7-ounce package of elbow macaroni 1 Elephant (Medium sized, diced) 2 rabbits (Optional) Salt, Pepper After the sixty days required to cut elephant into small cubes, place in 5-ton casserole dish.  Add enough brown gravy to cover.  Cook in 325 degree F. oven for about four weeks. During final 7 minutes, cook macaroni as directed on the package. Drain; do not chill.  Mix immediately with elbow stew. Serve hot.  Makes 3,752 servings.  If guests bring their guests, add two rabbits, but only if necessary, as most people do not like to discover hare in their stew. Carol — (Whose DH once asked if I wanted to cook the chicken for a change, and I said, "Sure, did you want that burnt or raw?") *It is the repetitivenss of tasks that opens the consciousness to moments of meditation, contemplation and hopefully elevation. –Jim Tisnado*

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Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?    Susie

You’ve probably heard enough on this topic buy here’s my 2 cents. Last time I perforated my finger, I cut the end off one of the fingers of an old pair of leather gloves. Worked well as long as it stayed dry, and cheaper and easier than having to run all over town trying to find a quilting thimble. Cheers, Bill    8-)

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– Judith Truly fax: (937) 222-8309 WHAT? Just a few quilters on RCTN. What do you say, gang. I bet there are lots of us that quilt, too. Judith

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: WHAT? Just a few quilters on RCTN. What do you say, gang. I bet there : are lots of us that quilt, too. Judith Oh, just a few… ;-D Terri — Terri Carl

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I have that cookbook!  Really, really I do.  It also has a recipe for Stone Soup!   Guess what I did this weekend?  I COOKED for 2 weeks worth of meals.  My DH can’t complain anymore and I’ll get REAL stitching time now.  No guilt.  And, to my DH’s neverending surprise, I even did the dishes afterwards! What did I cook: 2 batches of beef stew (frozen for later) 8 qts of spagetti sauce (actually Italian Gravy) 10 qts of beef stock 10 qts of chicken stock Sauerbraten (actually, I put this into soak, and will crockpot it on Friday) Egg Rolls, Hot & Sour Soup, Pork Shu Mei Cabbage Soup (frozen for later) Minestrone Soup (frozen for later — goodness is zucchini expensive these days!) And two batches of waffles (frozen for breakfasts!) And, we had a slumber party yesterday.  Whew! Tere Thanks for Noticing Me ~~ Eeyore

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: WHAT? Just a few quilters on RCTN. What do you say, gang. I bet there : are lots of us that quilt, too. Judith Oh, just a few… ;-D Terri — Terri Carl

I almost always have a quilt in progress. Takes me a long time to finish them. Right now I am working on one for my sister’s 25th wedding anniversary in 1999. Then I must do one for my brother’s 25th anniversary (also 1999) and one for my own 25th (also 1999). 1974 was a busy year in our family! Donna — + Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the + + nonsense of those who think they talk sense.  + +          -Robert Frost                        +

Response:

Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?    Susie

I’ve heard that there are fabric/leather pieces that you can get instead of a thimble. Basically it’s looks like the finger of a glove that’s been cut off the glove. I haven’t actually tried it, since my fingers tend to sweat easily, but I think I remember it being available in the fabric stores, maybe among the quilting supplies? Also, I have an occasional problem with the skin peeling off the tips of my fingers in such a way as to leave them very tender. My solution is to use LOTS of lotion on them *after* I’ve finished stitching for the evening (usually right before bed.) When it’s particularly bad, I’ll "soak" my fingers in a small dish of moisturizer, kind of like they do when you get a manicure. Also, if the peeling is REALLY bad, deep enough that it’s more like a wound then tender skin, I will *very liberally* smear Carmex(tm) on the sore spot before going to bed. Although the "wound" will still be there in the morning, it usually is no longer sore. Sometimes it takes a couple days of this treatment before my hands feel back to normal. Hope some of this helps! Mary Winters-Meyer Handcrafted Crochet and Bead Art

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Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?     Susie

Response:

When I was at SOXS in Sacramento last year, I bought a book from Janice Love (The Hardanger expert).  She had a booth.  I also bought a box of a product called "Leaf-It" which is plastic dot which sitcks to your finger.  There are 60 dots in a box.  They still give you some feeling on your finger tip, but are difficult to pierce with a needle.  I especially like them for hand sewing hems.   They seem to be a product that you could find in an office supply store, and the picture on the front of the box shows someone leafing through papers. Julie Hocking In San Diego, CA

Response:

: Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I : have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles : so is there anything else you can use on your firnger? This is the subject of countless quilting discussions — I haven’t punched a hole in my "needle finger" but I have punched countless holes in my ring finger on my left hand while quilting — you put a finger on the underside to feel the needle when it comes through.  Those little teeny quilting needles leave my finger looking like hamburger when I’ve let the callus disappear.  And I can’t really do anything about it — I have to be able to feel the needle, and this is the best way for me to do it! Anyway, there are a couple of things you could try: This might be clumsy, but it might be good enough to help — put some "silk" first aid tape over the end of your finger.  You should still be able to feel the needle… There’s something called "Liquid Skin" at the drugstore — I don’t remember the exact name but basically, you paint it on your skin, and it dries to form a protective extra layer for your skin.  I don’t know if you can put it on an open wound (if it’s bleeding, I’d make sure it’s okay for that!) but it doesn’t cut back on sensitivity like the tape does. Try a different thimble.  All thimbles are not created alike.  Mine is bent a little bit, too, to fit my finger better.  (Someone I know used to step on a new thimble to get it the right shape.)  There are leather thimbles, half-thimbles, thimbles with a cutout to allow your fingernail some room…  and when you find the optimum thimble, wear it around the house when you aren’t stitching for a few days.  (I do this by accident all the time!  It’ll clink on something and I’ll realize that I’ve been wearing it for an hour or so.) If nothing else, you’ll get the beginnings of a callus from the abuse you’re putting your finger through! Terri — Terri Carl

Response:

– Judith Truly fax: (937) 222-8309 Susie: When I’m quilting I use a thimble on my upper hand and band-aids on the lower one. I like it better than a quilting thimble on my lowerhand. It might work for cross stitch, too. It gives you just enough padding to feel the needle but not get pricked. Judith

Response:

Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?

Yes, but only when quilting. I have found the elastic bandages given to blood-donors to be very good for this. snotmyfault

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Susie, I too have stitched until I wore a hole into my finger.  It doesn’t feel very good.  What I do is to take bandaids and place them, at least two, with the pads over the hole.  I hope this helps. CC

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Hi Susie,   A few years ago I bought a leather thimble from a local sewing/fabric shop.  I’m sorry I don’t remember the name of this thimble but it is just about worn out and I am trying to find another one.  If I do I will post it’s name and where I found it.  It is the greatest!  If you find one before I do please post the details here.  Heidi

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Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?     Susie

Susie, you need a leather thimble!! I don’t like metal ones or ceramic ones, but my mom introduced me to leather thimbles and I do like them.. Perfect for sore fingers, but not for fingers that have a lot of heavy-duty pushing to do (not that protective). The only problem is that they can be difficult to find.. good luck, susan — How do eat an elephant?? One bite at a time…

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Has anyone stitched so long that they punch a hole in their finrger? I have and it’s not fun when you can’t put the project down. I hate thimbles so is there anything else you can use on your firnger?    Susie

Hi Susie,    I used to have some cloth-like thimbles that molded to your finger because the material stuck to itself.  I think I originally got them from Herschners years ago.  Anyway, they finally wore out and I needed a new thimble immediately and didn’t have a H. catalog to try to reorder.      I found an adjustable leather thimble, by Dritz, at a local store with lots of quilting supplies.  It looked way to bulky to be usable, but since my finger hole was actually bleeding, I was desperate and shelled out the $7.95 for it.  It is fantastic!  I don’t know what it is about the design, but in spite of its size, I almost don’t know I have it on my finger.  One thing though, I do turn it sideways from the way shown on the package.   This completely prevents the needle from accidentally slipping through the open area, which doesn’t make sense if you haven’t seen the thimble. HTH Marsha

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you need a leather thimble!! I don’t like metal ones or ceramic ones, but my mom introduced me to leather thimbles and I do like them.. Perfect for sore fingers, but not for fingers that have a lot of heavy-duty pushing to do (not that protective). The only problem is that they can be difficult to find..

No they’re not!  You just need to look at a sewing machine store or a quilting store/catalog.  (I think I’ve seen them in the quilting notions sections of Minn Fab and JoAnn’s too, but I may be mistaken.) I know that I’ve seen them at the quilting stores around here (no XS stores within 40+ miles, but two quilting stores within 15…go figure!). Other than that, I’ve seen them in Nancy’s Notions (1-800-833-0690, they also have a web page, but I don’t know it off hand, and I’m reading off-line); Newark Dressmaking Supply (1-800-736-6783); Clotilde (1-800-772-2891); and Keepsake Quilting (1-800-865-3458). jenn (usual disclaimers) — Jenn Ridley

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