Question:

Gary, is that "ver-bo-si-tized", long o with the accent on the -bo-?

You got me on that one John! TTUL Gary

Response:

Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting.  The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting.  The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?

 I would agree with you  (depending on the rent contract)

Response:

But in a sense isn’t a refundable deposit the same thing as a issuing a bond from the apartments perspective? at the end of the bonds life they have to pay the bond off, but in the mean time, it is considered income (minus interest payments)? Confused Man

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting. The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?  I would agree with you  (depending on the rent contract)

Response:

I agree. A refundable security deposit should not be put in "unearned revenue". To credit them to a "security deposits" liability account is how I would handle it. However, if the security deposit is a "last month’s rent deposit" and will be used to pay the final rental upon receiving notice from the tenant, then the "unearned revenue" or "last months rent deposit" would be the appropriate handling. It just depends on whether it is fully refundable or applied to the last month’s rent. — Stephanie Serba, AICIA Partner, Durham Business Outsource Accounting & Technology smserba <at dbo <dot ca www.dbo.ca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting. The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?  I would agree with you  (depending on the rent contract)

Response:

No.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But in a sense isn’t a refundable deposit the same thing as a issuing a bond from the apartments perspective? at the end of the bonds life they have to pay the bond off, but in the mean time, it is considered income (minus interest payments)? Confused Man Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting. The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?  I would agree with you  (depending on the rent contract)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting.  The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?

John, I would agree that the rent deposit should be recorded into a separate account.  It is easier to keep track of that way and more clear.  In real life, an organization might have 100 or more tenant security deposits to account for.  If all of these funds were labeled as unearned revenue, it may mislead the user of the financial statements into believing that all of this unearned revenue (or "deferred revenue" as I like to call it) will eventually be recognized. In defense of the author of the textbook, he or she is apparantly taking the point of view that since the Unearned Rent account and Tenant Deposit account are both liability accounts, it is not necessary to distinguish between the two. Preston Singleton, CPA Austin, Texas  

Response:

Thank you all for the help – my world is once again in order. Gary, is that "ver-bo-si-tized", long o with the accent on the -bo-? John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi John We always had in our chart of accounts an entry named ‘Security Deposits’, which is an ‘Other Current Liability’ account. TTUL Gary Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting. The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?

Response:

Hi John We always had in our chart of accounts an entry named ‘Security Deposits’, which is an ‘Other Current Liability’ account. TTUL Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just started an intermediate accounting course and I disagree with the way a refundable security deposit was recorded in a problem I’m attempting.  The problem asks for the necessary end of period adjusting entry to record the ‘earned’ portion of the unearned rent.   The existing balance in the ‘unearned rent revenue’ account consists of all the paid up rent into the following year plus a refundable security deposit.  In my opinion, because the security deposit is expected to be refunded to the tenant at the completion of the lease, it should not be considered revenue (either unearned or earned).  The authors of the book may consider it acceptable to include the deposit in unearned rent revenue, but there is no way that any portion of the deposit should be moved into the revenue account as earned rent.  I would put the security deposit in it’s own liability account (’security deposits held’?) and leave it there until it is either returned to the tenant or forfeited by the tenant.  Any comments?

Response:

Question:

Schnell und einfach viel Geld verdienen Investition von $6.00! Ich habe mir gedacht, das da

Question:

Sheesh, I didn’t realize new hires were getting offers that low.  I made more than that without even *using* my degree (I was waaaay overqualified for some of the jobs I had after I got out of school). The really sad thing about this is – I live in the MidWest, where wages are supposedly lower because the cost of living is so much lower.  Yet the local McDonalds in the little town we live in pays $6.00/hr, which is more than your’s does.  In the nearest city, they are paying more like $8.00/hr, and are lucky to get high school kids for that.  Average wages are more like $10.00 hr. for unskilled labor.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Susan, I think you’ve missed the point about the McDonalds comment. Many, many new hires at CPA firms are not paid that much these days. Local firms often start a student in the low 20s. Now, for a 40 hour a week job, a low 20s salary is pretty good in most places with an average cost of living. But during tax season, it’s a whole different story. Let’s take a new hire accountant named John as our example. John graduates from college, and in November or so gets hired on at a local accounting firm for 22,000 a year. For someone like John, the promise of going to school for accounting was so that he would not have to be flipping burgers while making near minimum wage at a place like McDonalds. So in November, John is quite thrilled to be making 22,000 a year. It seems a lot to John because it’s about $ 425.00 a week. To him that’s around $ 10 or $ 11 dollars an hour. Pretty nice compared to the low wages John made while in high school or college at various low-paying menial jobs such as flipping burgers at McDonalds. With me so far ? OK, now let’s move ahead to tax season. Now we find that John is no longer working 40 hour work weeks. As a new hire, his employers at the firm have him working 80 hours a week and sometimes more than that. But since John’s firm ( like MOST accounting firms ) is not paying him any overtime, John is still making around $ 425.00 a week. $ 425.00 per week divided by 80 hours =   $ 5.31 an hour. Yikes !  The national minimum wage is  $ 5.15 cents an hour. But here is John. During tax season, he’s making only 16 cents above the minimum wage ! Around here, McDonalds new hires start for around $ 5.75 to $ 6.00 an hour. And teenage babysitters often earn more per hour than John is making during his 80 hour weeks during tax season. The McDonalds example is a good one, Susan. It’s much more accurate than people think. And the biggest reason it’s accurate is that we live in a country that allows accounting firms to get out of paying overtime to new hires. It’s shameful. But it does have some good benefits I guess. The BMW dealers can sell more cars to partners of accounting firms. I was offered at one firm a low 20s salary,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what they mean is working all day long no with no OT allow. Sometimes sat and sun during peak. MEANWHILE doing the cpa. hows that? at the end of the day, a waitress working in Mcdonalds makes more than we do. My daughter words at McDonalds.  Even during tax season, when I’m working 60 hours or more a week, she doesn’t make more than I do – not even on an hourly basis.  Apparently McDonalds pays a hell of a lot more where you live than it does where I live.

Response:

Even these wages in the low to mid 20s wouldn’t be so bad if the job was a 40 hour job. But with tax season hours at accounting firms, and no overtime, these new hires end up making horrible wages while the partners laugh all the way to the bank. I would love to see one of the network news programs like 20/20 or 60 Minutes do a story on how accounting firms use this overtime " loophole " to shortchange and take advantage of new hires during tax season. They could even profile two " Johns " for the story. One who would work at McDonald’s and one at an accounting firm. The story could follow them both through tax season, and see who ended up making more per hour. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sheesh, I didn’t realize new hires were getting offers that low.  I made more than that without even *using* my degree (I was waaaay overqualified for some of the jobs I had after I got out of school). The really sad thing about this is – I live in the MidWest, where wages are supposedly lower because the cost of living is so much lower.  Yet the local McDonalds in the little town we live in pays $6.00/hr, which is more than your’s does.  In the nearest city, they are paying more like $8.00/hr, and are lucky to get high school kids for that.  Average wages are more like $10.00 hr. for unskilled labor. Susan, I think you’ve missed the point about the McDonalds comment. Many, many new hires at CPA firms are not paid that much these days. Local firms often start a student in the low 20s. Now, for a 40 hour a week job, a low 20s salary is pretty good in most places with an average cost of living. But during tax season, it’s a whole different story. Let’s take a new hire accountant named John as our example. John graduates from college, and in November or so gets hired on at a local accounting firm for 22,000 a year. For someone like John, the promise of going to school for accounting was so that he would not have to be flipping burgers while making near minimum wage at a place like McDonalds. So in November, John is quite thrilled to be making 22,000 a year. It seems a lot to John because it’s about $ 425.00 a week. To him that’s around $ 10 or $ 11 dollars an hour. Pretty nice compared to the low wages John made while in high school or college at various low-paying menial jobs such as flipping burgers at McDonalds. With me so far ? OK, now let’s move ahead to tax season. Now we find that John is no longer working 40 hour work weeks. As a new hire, his employers at the firm have him working 80 hours a week and sometimes more than that. But since John’s firm ( like MOST accounting firms ) is not paying him any overtime, John is still making around $ 425.00 a week. $ 425.00 per week divided by 80 hours =   $ 5.31 an hour. Yikes !  The national minimum wage is  $ 5.15 cents an hour. But here is John. During tax season, he’s making only 16 cents above the minimum wage ! Around here, McDonalds new hires start for around $ 5.75 to $ 6.00 an hour. And teenage babysitters often earn more per hour than John is making during his 80 hour weeks during tax season. The McDonalds example is a good one, Susan. It’s much more accurate than people think. And the biggest reason it’s accurate is that we live in a country that allows accounting firms to get out of paying overtime to new hires. It’s shameful. But it does have some good benefits I guess. The BMW dealers can sell more cars to partners of accounting firms. I was offered at one firm a low 20s salary, what they mean is working all day long no with no OT allow. Sometimes sat and sun during peak. MEANWHILE doing the cpa. hows that? at the end of the day, a waitress working in Mcdonalds makes more than we do. My daughter words at McDonalds.  Even during tax season, when I’m  working 60 hours or more a week, she doesn’t make more than I do – not even on an hourly basis.  Apparently McDonalds pays a hell of a lot more where you  live than it does where I live.

Response:

Susan, it is pretty sad to say the least. And on top of the low wages entry level accountants get, there are also costs associated with that first entry level accounting job that a worker at McDonald’s won’t have. John, the fictional accountant in my example, may also have to fork over money for parking every day if the firm is in a downtown area. On top of that, working in an accounting firm is a white-collar job. Maintaining a white-collar wardrobe (costs of clothes, dry-cleaning, etc), is another cost John will incur with the accounting firm job that he wouldn’t have at McDonalds. So that $ 5.31 an hour that John makes during tax season may be worth even less when additional costs that " go with the job " are taken into account. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sheesh, I didn’t realize new hires were getting offers that low.  I made more than that without even *using* my degree (I was waaaay overqualified for some of the jobs I had after I got out of school). The really sad thing about this is – I live in the MidWest, where wages are supposedly lower because the cost of living is so much lower.  Yet the local McDonalds in the little town we live in pays $6.00/hr, which is more than your’s does.  In the nearest city, they are paying more like $8.00/hr, and are lucky to get high school kids for that.  Average wages are more like $10.00 hr. for unskilled labor. Susan, I think you’ve missed the point about the McDonalds comment. Many, many new hires at CPA firms are not paid that much these days. Local firms often start a student in the low 20s. Now, for a 40 hour a week job, a low 20s salary is pretty good in most places with an average cost of living. But during tax season, it’s a whole different story. Let’s take a new hire accountant named John as our example. John graduates from college, and in November or so gets hired on at a local accounting firm for 22,000 a year. For someone like John, the promise of going to school for accounting was so that he would not have to be flipping burgers while making near minimum wage at a place like McDonalds. So in November, John is quite thrilled to be making 22,000 a year. It seems a lot to John because it’s about $ 425.00 a week. To him that’s around $ 10 or $ 11 dollars an hour. Pretty nice compared to the low wages John made while in high school or college at various low-paying menial jobs such as flipping burgers at McDonalds. With me so far ? OK, now let’s move ahead to tax season. Now we find that John is no longer working 40 hour work weeks. As a new hire, his employers at the firm have him working 80 hours a week and sometimes more than that. But since John’s firm ( like MOST accounting firms ) is not paying him any overtime, John is still making around $ 425.00 a week. $ 425.00 per week divided by 80 hours =   $ 5.31 an hour. Yikes !  The national minimum wage is  $ 5.15 cents an hour. But here is John. During tax season, he’s making only 16 cents above the minimum wage ! Around here, McDonalds new hires start for around $ 5.75 to $ 6.00 an hour. And teenage babysitters often earn more per hour than John is making during his 80 hour weeks during tax season. The McDonalds example is a good one, Susan. It’s much more accurate than people think. And the biggest reason it’s accurate is that we live in a country that allows accounting firms to get out of paying overtime to new hires. It’s shameful. But it does have some good benefits I guess. The BMW dealers can sell more cars to partners of accounting firms. I was offered at one firm a low 20s salary, what they mean is working all day long no with no OT allow. Sometimes sat and sun during peak. MEANWHILE doing the cpa. hows that? at the end of the day, a waitress working in Mcdonalds makes more than we do. My daughter words at McDonalds.  Even during tax season, when I’m  working 60 hours or more a week, she doesn’t make more than I do – not even on an hourly basis.  Apparently McDonalds pays a hell of a lot more where you  live than it does where I live.

Response:

Sheesh, I didn’t realize new hires were getting offers that low.  I made more than that without even *using* my degree (I was waaaay overqualified for some of the jobs I had after I got out of school). The really sad thing about this is – I live in the MidWest, where wages are supposedly lower because the cost of living is so much lower.  Yet the local McDonalds in the little town we live in pays $6.00/hr, which is more than your’s does.  In the nearest city, they are paying more like $8.00/hr, and are lucky to get high school kids for that.  Average wages are more like $10.00 hr. for unskilled labor.

When I graduated in 1992, I got offered $23K by a local firm in NC.  

Response:

what they mean is working all day long no with no OT allow. Sometimes sat and sun during peak. MEANWHILE doing the cpa. hows that? at the end of the day, a waitress working in Mcdonalds makes more than we do.

My daughter words at McDonalds.  Even during tax season, when I’m working 60 hours or more a week, she doesn’t make more than I do – not even on an hourly basis.  Apparently McDonalds pays a hell of a lot more where you live than it does where I live.

Response:

Susan, I think you’ve missed the point about the McDonalds comment. Many, many new hires at CPA firms are not paid that much these days. Local firms often start a student in the low 20s. Now, for a 40 hour a week job, a low 20s salary is pretty good in most places with an average cost of living. But during tax season, it’s a whole different story. Let’s take a new hire accountant named John as our example. John graduates from college, and in November or so gets hired on at a local accounting firm for 22,000 a year. For someone like John, the promise of going to school for accounting was so that he would not have to be flipping burgers while making near minimum wage at a place like McDonalds. So in November, John is quite thrilled to be making 22,000 a year. It seems a lot to John because it’s about $ 425.00 a week. To him that’s around $ 10 or $ 11 dollars an hour. Pretty nice compared to the low wages John made while in high school or college at various low-paying menial jobs such as flipping burgers at McDonalds. With me so far ? OK, now let’s move ahead to tax season. Now we find that John is no longer working 40 hour work weeks. As a new hire, his employers at the firm have him working 80 hours a week and sometimes more than that. But since John’s firm ( like MOST accounting firms ) is not paying him any overtime, John is still making around $ 425.00 a week. $ 425.00 per week divided by 80 hours =   $ 5.31 an hour. Yikes !  The national minimum wage is  $ 5.15 cents an hour. But here is John. During tax season, he’s making only 16 cents above the minimum wage ! Around here, McDonalds new hires start for around $ 5.75 to $ 6.00 an hour. And teenage babysitters often earn more per hour than John is making during his 80 hour weeks during tax season. The McDonalds example is a good one, Susan. It’s much more accurate than people think. And the biggest reason it’s accurate is that we live in a country that allows accounting firms to get out of paying overtime to new hires. It’s shameful. But it does have some good benefits I guess. The BMW dealers can sell more cars to partners of accounting firms. I was offered at one firm a low 20s salary, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what they mean is working all day long no with no OT allow. Sometimes sat and sun during peak. MEANWHILE doing the cpa. hows that? at the end of the day, a waitress working in Mcdonalds makes more than we do. My daughter words at McDonalds.  Even during tax season, when I’m working 60 hours or more a week, she doesn’t make more than I do – not even on an hourly basis.  Apparently McDonalds pays a hell of a lot more where you live than it does where I live.

Response:

We are wasting our time with Joe.  His has no interest in any profession. All he wants is an easy job with lots of money. — Ken Russell Sydney,  Australia

| | | –Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is | a –pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I go | into –college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t | really a –great job (concerning pay and the amount of education | needed) what should I –get into thats equaly easy and pays well? | Thanks | | It is easier than many jobs, harder than others.  Mainly, its a | "clean" job. | | To move up in almost any organization or move laterally or vertically | amoung jobs, you’ll need a degree. | | Tons of professions, become an engineer, or insurance man, or sales, | or whatever — find out what you want | | | | Whats the average salary a out of college accountant makes? I don’t mind | being an accountant it doesn’t uninterest me, I just want a job that gives | decent pay.

Response:

–Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a –pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I go into –college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really a –great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what should I –get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks It is easier than many jobs, harder than others.  Mainly, its a "clean" job. To move up in almost any organization or move laterally or vertically amoung jobs, you’ll need a degree. Tons of professions, become an engineer, or insurance man, or sales, or whatever — find out what you want

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a –pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I go into –college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really a –great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what should I –get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks It is easier than many jobs, harder than others.  Mainly, its a "clean" job. To move up in almost any organization or move laterally or vertically amoung jobs, you’ll need a degree. Tons of professions, become an engineer, or insurance man, or sales, or whatever — find out what you want

Whats the average salary a out of college accountant makes? I don’t mind being an accountant it doesn’t uninterest me, I just want a job that gives decent pay.

Response:

I was in the restaurant biz, and we would often hold special parties for different types of orgs — believe me they are different.     Directly on point: A recruiting dinner party hosted by a large law firm.,., and a recruiting dinner party hosted by a big six accy firm. — The lawyers drank like fish, the highest liquor sales per customer of any group ever !!!, the accountants barely drank, ordering slightly more liquor than a church study group. –I am amazed that someone who has admittedly never worked in the profession has –such insight into the types of people who are accountants and the stereotypes –that surround them. — –I was in sales, and then accounting.  I would say that the types of people who –worked in both were alot more similar than different.  Sales people are a bit –more outgoing, but the college grads I met that were into accounting liked to –go out and drink, and go to social occassions

Response:

People who are pure accountants are some of the most boring, anal-retentive, and humorless type people you’ll ever meet in any job. Will you happy working around those type of people ? And do you like sitting at a desk and working in a stuffy cubicle for 10-14 hours a day ?

I am amazed that someone who has admittedly never worked in the profession has such insight into the types of people who are accountants and the stereotypes that surround them. I was in sales, and then accounting.  I would say that the types of people who worked in both were alot more similar than different.  Sales people are a bit more outgoing, but the college grads I met that were into accounting liked to go out and drink, and go to social occassions just like the rest of the free world.  When we were on the road, we always made a point of catching a baseball game or hitting the casino during our trips.   And the 10-14 hour days are mostly times that run up to deadlines.  More often than not, my work weeks were 40 hours.  The one thing that is bad about Big 4 accounting is the travel, but the good thing is the flexibility.  You don’t have some boss hovering over you making sure you are in your seat until 5 PM if you need to go run a personal errand. The hierarchy is prettly losely woven. If you are a staff person, it is usually up to your senior on the job to let you go if you have some personal errands to run.  

Response:

Joe, are you interested in business ?  Getting an accounting degree doesn’t mean you have to go out and be an accountant. I still believe that an accounting degree is by far the best overall business degree that you can get. Not everyone who majors in accounting becomes an accountant. I know of one guy who bought a unit of a gas station/convenience store from a franchise and using his accounting skills to help him do all the bookeeping for the place. He worked in public accounting and didn’t like it. There are also questions you need to ask yourself about the kind of environment you like working in. People who are pure accountants are some of the most boring, anal-retentive, and humorless type people you’ll ever meet in any job. Will you happy working around those type of people ? And do you like sitting at a desk and working in a stuffy cubicle for 10-14 hours a day ? many pure accounting jobs are like that. On the other hand, have you ever thought about running your own business ? In my opinion, an accounting degree is very valuable for someone who wants to run their own business. Decide on what YOU want to do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Joe, I suggest you don’t choose accounting as your "job".  I wouldn’t like to see the standard lowered by your entry!  Get some purpose in your life other than money and laziness.  You’ll be surprised how good it will make you feel. — Ken Russell Sydney,  Australia | | Wrong attitude I’m afraid! | | The most important element in any job is job satisfaction.  Easy | and highly paid jobs don’t always provide that. | | — | Ken Russell | Sydney,  Australia | | | | Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting | | is a pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I | | go into college or university to study accounting? If accounting | | isn’t really a great job (concerning pay and the amount of | | education needed) what should  I | | get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks | | | | | | | Nah, a job is a job…plus I can handle boredom can someone answer | my questions please? | hmmm, after reading this newsgroup I’ve come to the conclusion that about 90% of the people who post here don’t like accounting at all :/ How come?

Response:

what they mean is working all day long no with no OT allow. Sometimes sat and sun during peak. MEANWHILE doing the cpa. hows that? at the end of the day, a waitress working in Mcdonalds makes more than we do.

The majority of the people that have responded on the working conditions in public practice have experiences complete different from mine. I started at the firm I work at in October 2002 and have had nothing but good things to say so far. I would like tax season to be over, obviously, so I can have Saturdays back, but other than that… Since the first of February I’ve been working around 50-55 hours a week. My base salary is in the mid 20s but I am also getting paid time and half for overtime. Plus I get some decent benefits – health insurance, accrued vacation days, flexible hours. All in all, with the OT from tax season, I’ll end up making around 34-36K this year without my CPA (which, hopefully, I’ll have in November), and the partners seem to be preparing me for a long-term commitment to the firm. I think that’s pretty decent, overall, for an entry level job. Perhaps it’s just working for a small firm in a small town. Any others here work in a similar situation? Is mine really that much of a rarity? – Michael S. Whitehead.

Response:

Joe, Too late, matey. If you were born 10 years eariler, You could have signed off Enron;s account and cooked many books, make huge $ this way and retire. Too bad that, there were many unprofessional and unethical people in this world, making our accounitng industry and economy fail as a result. With that attitude, May I suggest you pick up singer… or acting.

Response:

Joe, the first question you want to ask yourself is if you’re interested in or think you would like doing accounting work. Is accounting something you have an interest in ? You have to find out first whether you’re interested in accounting before thinking about a career in it. Very few jobs that pay well are " easy, " if I’m understanding what you mean by that term. Find out what you want to do. Pick a career that you enjoy but one that will also put a roof over your head. accounting takes a good amount of education. But when you are done with college or with the CPA or CMA exams, your learning is not done. You have to continue learning as laws and rules concerning accounting issues change. Don’t pick a career whether it’s " easy " or not. If you don’t like something, it won’t matter if it’s easy because it will be " hard " to continue to do it day after day. Accountants can work a LOT of hours. If you don’t like accounting, those hours will be very hard for you to do. And whoever said accounting was " easy " ? A good rule for you to follow is that things that are " easy " are usually not going to be the things that pay well. If something is " easy, " then lots of people can do it. So the pay won’t be so good.

Response:

Get a bachelor degree in accounting from Queen’s University, and you’ll be making $CD 42,000+ once you graduate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? if you like numbers and living cheap, yes, it is true  Also, should I go into college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really a great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what should  I get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks i suggest rock star or maybe acting living cheap?? what do you mean?

Response:

what they mean is working all day long no with no OT allow. Sometimes sat and sun during peak. MEANWHILE doing the cpa. hows that? at the end of the day, a waitress working in Mcdonalds makes more than we do.

Response:

My suggestion is to not to listen to certain disgruntled losers who post on this newsgroup and to make up your own mind. Bitterness abounds.

Response:

Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I go into college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really a great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what should I get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks

Response:

Wrong attitude I’m afraid! The most important element in any job is job satisfaction.  Easy and highly paid jobs don’t always provide that. — Ken Russell Sydney,  Australia

| Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a | pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I go into | college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really a | great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what should I | get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks |

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wrong attitude I’m afraid! The most important element in any job is job satisfaction.  Easy and highly paid jobs don’t always provide that. — Ken Russell Sydney,  Australia | Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a | pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I go into | college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really | a great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what | should I | get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks |

Nah, a job is a job…plus I can handle boredom can someone answer my questions please?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Joe, I suggest you don’t choose accounting as your "job".  I wouldn’t like to see the standard lowered by your entry!  Get some purpose in your life other than money and laziness.  You’ll be surprised how good it will make you feel. — Ken Russell Sydney,  Australia | | Wrong attitude I’m afraid! | | The most important element in any job is job satisfaction.  Easy | and highly paid jobs don’t always provide that. | | — | Ken Russell | Sydney,  Australia | | | | Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting | | is a pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I | | go into college or university to study accounting? If accounting | | isn’t really a great job (concerning pay and the amount of | | education needed) what should | I | | get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks | | | | | | | Nah, a job is a job…plus I can handle boredom can someone answer | my questions please? |

hmmm, after reading this newsgroup I’ve come to the conclusion that about 90% of the people who post here don’t like accounting at all :/ How come?

Response:

Well Joe, I suggest you don’t choose accounting as your "job".  I wouldn’t like to see the standard lowered by your entry!  Get some purpose in your life other than money and laziness.  You’ll be surprised how good it will make you feel. — Ken Russell Sydney,  Australia

| | Wrong attitude I’m afraid! | | The most important element in any job is job satisfaction.  Easy and | highly paid jobs don’t always provide that. | | — | Ken Russell | Sydney,  Australia | | | | Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a | | pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? Also, should I go into | | college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really | | a great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what | | should | I | | get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks | | | | | | | Nah, a job is a job…plus I can handle boredom can someone answer my | questions please? |

Response:

Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true?

if you like numbers and living cheap, yes, it is true  Also, should I go into college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really a great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what should I get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks

i suggest rock star or maybe acting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m 17 and I’m living in Ontario. I’ve heard that accounting is a pretty easy job that pays well. Is that true? if you like numbers and living cheap, yes, it is true  Also, should I go into college or university to study accounting? If accounting isn’t really a great job (concerning pay and the amount of education needed) what should I get into thats equaly easy and pays well? Thanks i suggest rock star or maybe acting

living cheap?? what do you mean?

Response:

Question:

Hi, every one, I am Winnie Lau and studying for an honours degree in pscyhology at USQ. As part of my course, I am doing a thesis, the aim of which is to investigate the behaviour of children and associated stress in parents.  In this study, there are THREE groups, "intact" two parent, single parent and foster carer.  I have started to invite the participants since last semester.  I have invited the participants at primary school and family centre.  However, there are no more single parent.  Because the due date is coming, I would like to invite the single parent via internet in order to save time. Finally, if you are (1) single parent                              (2) have at least one child aged between 6 and 14, please contact me.  I need your help.  If you have interested in my research, please send me your name and postal address to me. Thank you for your interest in my research. Regards, Winnie Lau

Response:

Winnie, go away with this shit … You got boundary problems, seek therapy sweetie. Go to your thesis supervisor and delay your project, wait for you to find someone local like you did for ALL the other research participants you already have seen and personally been with. Like Cheops law, nothing gets built on time or within budget. Brain Surgeons have an 8 or 12 year internship on their time, like you are trying to save time, find another patient to practice on and make your report and get your degree. Brain Surgeons take so long to train like you are in training – cause brain surgery patients are not so frequent. Ya know you have to get it from your patient pool, and what kind of doctor goes out and rushes the patient pool for brain surgery … wants to save time. Noooooooo, they wait for the patient to come to them, that is how research is done in the United States any way. Sounds like your supervisors are really fucked ya know to let you lose like this going outside of your selected and agreed to parameters you have already followed except for just ONE participant. right. ya, sure. alan alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, every one, I am Winnie Lau and studying for an honours degree in pscyhology at USQ. As part of my course, I am doing a thesis, the aim of which is to investigate the behaviour of children and associated stress in parents.  In this study, there are THREE groups, "intact" two parent, single parent and foster carer.  I have started to invite the participants since last semester.  I have invited the participants at primary school and family centre.  However, there are no more single parent.  Because the due date is coming, I would like to invite the single parent via internet in order to save time. Finally, if you are (1) single parent (2) have at least one child aged between 6 and 14, please contact me.  I need your help.  If you have interested in my research, please send me your name and postal address to me. Thank you for your interest in my research. Regards, Winnie Lau

Response:

Noooooooo, they wait for the patient to come to them, that is how research is done in the United States any way.

Maybe she doesn’t care how we do things in the US.  Not everybody has to do things our way. — Dan Abel Sonoma State University AIS http://www.sonoma.edu/IT/AIS/people/Abel.html

Response:

I think this is some kind of scam to get the names of single parents….I read something very similar from someone else recently…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, every one, I am Winnie Lau and studying for an honours degree in pscyhology at USQ. As part of my course, I am doing a thesis, the aim of which is to investigate the behaviour of children and associated stress in parents.  In this study, there are THREE groups, "intact" two parent, single parent and foster carer.  I have started to invite the participants since last semester.  I have invited the participants at primary school and family centre.  However, there are no more single parent.  Because the due date is coming, I would like to invite the single parent via internet in order to save time. Finally, if you are (1) single parent (2) have at least one child aged between 6 and 14, please contact me.  I need your help.  If you have interested in my research, please send me your name and postal address to me. Thank you for your interest in my research. Regards, Winnie Lau

Response:

Hi Dan Its not a real interest for me to triangulate with you over this person (identity unknown and purpose suspect) and what they care about or not in a supposed clinical situation.  Such action I have found to be a waste of time. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt, like I do you, that both of you have some personal interest to learn; being you claim to be in education. Which is the only reason why I am being civil to you and to the other person who you are supposing dont care about other people and their own personal hypocrisy. You know, being sick in the head. Its part of the nature of the Beast and how it always goes to it Armageddon. If you have some recovery issues over this Dan – go ahead and post them. I am trying to talk to a person who doesn’t care to be talked to or to examine their thesis and education … which I hope you know its what a thesis is all about, you know … open examination …seeing the light of day … that is if you care …. like my professors of psychology cared in my Master’s Program (Class of 83, SSU Alumni). Since this person dont care and dont care to talk about it – one could think they are not honest and their intentions are suspect …. untoward. FYI my thesis is published and in the SSU library. Its entitled "Psychogenic Health Transformations". You will notice if you care to look that Dr. Eleanor Criswell, a current Professor Of Psychology, Sonoma State University was one of the members of my Masters Committee. You can even ask her about me. Alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Noooooooo, they wait for the patient to come to them, that is how research is done in the United States any way. Maybe she doesn’t care how we do things in the US.  Not everybody has to do things our way. — Dan Abel Sonoma State University AIS http://www.sonoma.edu/IT/AIS/people/Abel.html

Response:

yaaa, its a scam in my book also and not to be trusted. kinda like your bank selling your life and buying demographics and making you spend money to get them not to do business with you like this. usery and foulness. its like being fucked by Bushy. no pleasent nor welcomed. sumbuddie said dis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think this is some kind of scam to get the names of single parents….I read something very similar from someone else recently……

Response:

Dan, it seems you are a little green about relationships and internet stuff as well as a bit fragmented in your own personality, since you dont write in complete and whole thoughts; but can write in whole and complete thoughts … Like you did before with me, and I am did and still continue to do with you, its only just recently in this recent priavte missive that you decided to fragment and not talk in whole thoughts, as well as contact me privately when all the other times we have talked in the public domaine. I am not curious as to what was going on in your mind to do this, thats for you to figure out if you can. As to the other person who is showing a face that they are in Australia and not the United States and that is all you wanted to comment on, well great, thanks for sharing. I also know about the changes in SSU, I live just down the road and drive by the campus all the time. Oh by the way, I would really appreciate it if in the future you confine your contacts to me in the public domaine; it far to much work for me to deal with you privately. I am posting this so that our conversation can stay public. Thanks for thinking about me. sumbuddie said dis :*) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Dan Its not a real interest for me to triangulate with you over this person (identity unknown and purpose suspect) and what they care about or not in a supposed clinical situation.  Such action I have found to be a waste of time. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt, like I do you, that both of you have some personal interest to learn; being you claim to be in education. I am a computer programmer working primarily with accounting software.  I have very little contact at present with the instructional side.  I have no personal issue in this, I was just commenting that she appears to be in Australia, not the US. If you have some recovery issues over this Dan – go ahead and post them. This article was cross-posted to alt.parents-teens, which I follow.  The original post may or may not be legitimate, but I am suspicious, due to the cross-posting and lack of relevance to teens. Oh, and if you haven’t been to SSU for awhile, there are lots of changes. The entire flavor of the school has changed, along with a lot of new buildings.  I started at SSU as a student in 1979, so we were both here at the same time.  I joined the staff a couple of years later, so I’ve been a programmer here for about twenty years.

Response:

Question:

Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

 I just got a PC router from them. No problems. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

I ordered from them once with no problems. The specific item failed past their 30 day warranty, although it was only the 2nd time used, and they replaced it with no problems. I recommend them from my experience. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Bill… I purchases the Milwaukee 10" csms w/stand and a Hitachi compressor from them a while back (actually from the "low priced tools" site) and was very satisfied with product as well as price. Jon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I just got a PC router from them. No problems. Bill Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Ya, I have been real happy with their service.  Though, I haven’t ordered anything heavier than about 20 pounds. — John Shear

Response:

William Alden been berry good to me… — John McGaw Knoxville, Tennessee, USA —– —– This is not your average boring web site! This is MY average boring web site: http://www.public.usit.net/jmcgaw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

I have ordered several items from them and I will order from them again with out hesitation. Good company.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – William Alden been berry good to me… — John McGaw Knoxville, Tennessee, USA —– —– This is not your average boring web site! This is MY average boring web site: http://www.public.usit.net/jmcgaw Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

    Go.  I had a Delta 37-195 jointer shipped to my work address (~200 lbs.), via Roadway, and W.A. only charged me $12.00 for shipping.  I’ve always been very pleased with their service as well as prices.     Casey

Response:

I ordered a Jet 15" planer from them and had absolutely no problems. I have also ordered many other small items and have never had a problem.                                                            Dale – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

I wouldn’t feel right in letting this thread go by without mentioning my favorite place to acquire stuff – 7 Corners / Tools-on-Sale. http://www.7cornershdwe.com/ Folk… Check the following and READ THE FAQ, SEARCH THE ARCHIVES, THEN ASK A QUESTION rec.ww  FAQ:    http://www.robson.org/woodfaq/ Archives *:     http://x29.deja.com/home_ps.shtml * Dust FAQ & Steambending FAQ posted on first of each month

Response:

Dear Bill, I am in Canada, and I ordered a Hitachi M12V and Freud 508 Super Dado from William Alden and had no problems with them either. I found the order taker quite helpful and I got my order within four days. Go ahead, you will be happy with them, Thanks, David. Newbies, please read this newsgroups FAQ. rec.ww FAQ http://www.robson.org/woodfaq/ Archives http://x29.deja.com/home_ps.shtml crowbar FAQ http://www.concentric.net/~Odeen/oldtools/crowbar.shtml

Response:

Go Excellent prices, good service, no problems over half a dozen orders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

GO

Response:

I am a very satisfied customer of William Alden – for hand tools.  Stanley planes, Freud dado, router, clamps, etc. I have purchased all of my stationary tools locally (table saw, band saw, drill press, etc.).  I found that the local prices (Woodcraft, Denny Lumber(Delta dealer), Rockler, Lowes) are competitive with mail order, and I like the idea of a local dealer in case of problems.  Also, I like the privilidge of drooling over the tools before I by them. My $.02 Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

I’ve ordered a from them a few times for small items as well as a Jet cabinet saw.  My only real complaint is that their warehouse staff only works 4 days per week.  Basically, if you order after noon on a wednesday, your order won’t ship until the following monday.  I’ve found this sufficiently annoying that I’ll generally get Tool Crib to match a better price and order from them. Ben Shakman Springfield, Illinois Homepage: http://members.aol.com/ltshakman/homepage.htm

Response:

Most people seem to have good things to say about them.  I placed an order with them once.  They said the item was in stock.  They never shipped.  When I called to inquire I got a service rep who must have been having a bad day.  They were unhelpful and rude.   I will never order from them again.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

Response:

I have ordered numerous times and have been satisfied for the most part.  They did not handle a backorder well before Christmas (SWMBO ordered a dovetail jig for me) and never shipped it.  It worked out though because I really wanted the Leigh jig anyway instead of the PC. I will continue to order from them anyway.

Response:

Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go.

I’ve ordered from them several times and had no problem.  However, the last time I ordered from them, there was indeed a problem.  I ordered a Porter Cable brad nailer and, because of the problems with the Delta/Porter Cable merger that we’re all aware of, I wanted to know whether they had the brad nailer in stock – I didn’t want to have to wait for a shipment from Porter Cable.  The sales lady assured me that they did and that it would arrive on my doorstep in 5-6 business days.  I said fine and placed the order.  A week later, after seeing nothing on my doorstep, I called customer service at William Alden and was told that the item was not in stock and was on back-order.  I was more than a little annoyed.  I felt that I had been lied to.  To make a long story short I cancelled the order with William Alden and placed an order with another company that had a better price anyway.  This is a one-time experience and, as I say above, I’ve had good experiences with them in the past.  It does make you wonder though. Good luck, Al Hart

Response:

I just received an order from them in less than a week. I’ve run into delays from different Internet vendors. Since you were dealing with a PC item, I’d not rush to judgement. Delta and PC have had a lot of problems recently and it shows.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one ordered from this place? I want to order a 200lb tool and since I am not familiar with the company would appreciate any feed back. Go or no Go. I’ve ordered from them several times and had no problem.  However, the last time I ordered from them, there was indeed a problem.  I ordered a Porter Cable brad nailer and, because of the problems with the Delta/Porter Cable merger that we’re all aware of, I wanted to know whether they had the brad nailer in stock – I didn’t want to have to wait for a shipment from Porter Cable.  The sales lady assured me that they did and that it would arrive on my doorstep in 5-6 business days.  I said fine and placed the order.  A week later, after seeing nothing on my doorstep, I called customer service at William Alden and was told that the item was not in stock and was on back-order.  I was more than a little annoyed.  I felt that I had been lied to.  To make a long story short I cancelled the order with William Alden and placed an order with another company that had a better price anyway.  This is a one-time experience and, as I say above, I’ve had good experiences with them in the past.  It does make you wonder though. Good luck, Al Hart

Response:

<snip The sales lady assured me that they did and that it would arrive on my doorstep in 5-6 business days.  I said fine and placed the order.  A week later, after seeing nothing on my doorstep, I called customer service at William Alden and was told that the item was not in stock and

was onback-order. I had a similar experience on an order I placed in early December.  Three items that were supposed to have been in stock when I talked to them later turned out to have been out of stock and I was never notified.  They were helpful and apologetic when I called to enquire but of course by then the damage was done. I’ll continue to deal with other companies. David Vaughn * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Does anyone know what happened to William Alden tools. I haven’t received a catalog for a long time. Are they still in business? Jim —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Out of business probably over a year now – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know what happened to William Alden tools. I haven’t received a catalog for a long time. Are they still in business? Jim —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Does anyone know what happened to William Alden tools. I haven’t received a catalog for a long time. Are they still in business? Jim

  I was wondering that myself. Their website appears to be   gone and someone appears to have scoffed up their domain.   Their corporate offices were in Taunton, MA the last that I   new. It might be interesting to see if directory assistance still   has a listing for them.   Tim Henrion   Boston

Response:

All considering placing an order with William Alden or their related websites should be advised that the company is on the verge of filing bankruptcy. Right now they have served their vendors with notice that they are in financial trouble, and urge them to accept an offer of 30 cents on the dollar for the amounts owed. Otherwise the company will have to go forward with filing bankruptcy and you may get nothing. They also advised that they have sold their building and are renting it back from the purchaser to continue operations, They have provided this half ass accounting of where all the proceeds from the sale went, claiming none went to family who owns the company. Bottom line

Question:

Well, my Soldano is partially PCB, and partially PtP, so does that mean my amp sucks?  

NOOOOOOO…. 1st two words.. MY OPINION And my tone must suck also, as a result of that nasty PCB board.

Hey I haven’t heard a bad soldano yet! but then again we aren’t talking about soldanos are we? talking about marshall. There are well built marshalls and half ass marshalls. I’ve used 30 year old marshalls without a hitch and had a brand new JCM900 shoot smoke after 15 minutes. Looks like I just wasted $1800.  The point of this rant is that there is ZERO differance in tone in a PtP amp and a PCB one.

but not the point of the thread… and yes there is a difference if you’re talking about the same amp model, say a JCM 800. Rob, the point is, PCB, if done correctly, is just as good as PtP.

Soundwise yes, in the long run… who knows? I speak from my experience with PCB based amps they aren’t nearly as sturdy as their PtP counterparts. I don’t know about the soldanos, i would imagine the PCB section is preamp and the PtP is Power stage. I could be wrong, I probably am. I’ve never burnt a power tube socket in a PtP amp and 4 in PCB based amps. I’ve never broke the pcb mounts resulting in arc/frying problems on a PtP amp. I’ve never had to stop a show half way through because my PtP amp arced and fried the entire power amp stage. Just my experience, YMMV.  I don’t, however, know any prices for the 900.  I do know that a decent (not too beat up, relatively new tubes, no mods….) JCM 800 shouldn’t cost over $400.

http://listen.to/tiltwheel Home of the tiltwheel Founders of the United States Frankie Core

Response:

Actually, this is pretty much the description of any electronic product reliability… if it will fail, it’s usually in the first hours of use. That’s part of what burn-in periods are for.   And yes, there are well built and poorly built examples of everything..  we can see it seems to get worse when too many accountants get involved and manufacturers become complacent (ex. AMF gibsons and CBS fenders, and early 80’s north american cars). The very fact that the amp has survived for 30 years indicates that the reliability of *that amp* is proven; it does not mean that, when it was brand-new, other examples didn’t become fireplaces. -pk <snip There are well built marshalls and half ass marshalls. I’ve used 30 year

old marshalls without a hitch and had a brand new JCM900 shoot smoke after 15 minutes.

<Snip

Response:

Well, my Soldano is partially PCB, and partially PtP, so does that mean my amp sucks? NOOOOOOO…. 1st two words.. MY OPINION

Missed that, my apologies And my tone must suck also, as a result of that nasty PCB board. Hey I haven’t heard a bad soldano yet! but then again we aren’t talking

about soldanos are we? talking about marshall. There are well built marshalls and half ass marshalls. I’ve used 30 year

old marshalls without a hitch and had a brand new JCM900 shoot smoke after 15 minutes.

I think mostly everything prior to the 90’s is made better.  Better, more durable cars (steel instead of plastic), houses (more brick and less wood), etc, etc.  It seems more care was put into the work.  Nowadays, products are put together in a haphazard way.  Have you seen the shoddy workmanship on some of these new super-expensive houses?  Its incredible.  I could go on, but I won’t. Looks like I just wasted $1800.  The point of this rant is that there is ZERO differance in tone in a PtP amp and a PCB one. but not the point of the thread… and yes there is a difference if you’re

talking about the same amp model, say a JCM 800. I’m basing my statement on an article by Mike Soldano himself.  Here’s a clip: "In closing this discussion, one should bear in mind that there is absolutely no sonic difference between point to point and printed circuit board wiring. Detractors of PC boards have argued that they are less reliable do to cracked solder joints or failure prone do to burned traces – neither of these complaints are even an issue with a properly designed board." heres the rest: http://www.soldano.com/mharticle.htm Rob, the point is, PCB, if done correctly, is just as good as PtP. Soundwise yes, in the long run… who knows? I speak from my experience

with PCB based amps they aren’t nearly as sturdy as their PtP counterparts. I don’t know about the soldanos, i would imagine

the PCB section is preamp and the PtP is Power stage. I could be wrong, I probably am. I’ve never burnt a power tube

socket in a PtP amp and 4 in PCB based amps. I’ve never broke the pcb mounts resulting in arc/frying problems on a PtP amp.

I’ve never had to stop a show half way through because my PtP amp arced and fried the entire power amp stage.

Just my experience, YMMV. I’d think we both agree that the new Marshalls aren’t as good (sound wise and durability wise) as older models, the 800 and older.  I don’t, however, know any prices for the 900.  I do know that a decent (not too beat up, relatively new tubes, no mods….) JCM 800 shouldn’t cost over $400.

steve

Response:

many early marshals were considered as junk just as some view all modern marshals, however for those who loved that crushing sound that only a marshal gets they would either find a decent one, spend money to make a half decent one sound good or just live with the shoddyness. ollie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Internet Direct – http://www.mydirect.com Newsgroups: alt.guitar Actually, this is pretty much the description of any electronic product reliability… if it will fail, it’s usually in the first hours of use. That’s part of what burn-in periods are for.   And yes, there are well built and poorly built examples of everything..  we can see it seems to get worse when too many accountants get involved and manufacturers become complacent (ex. AMF gibsons and CBS fenders, and early 80’s north american cars). The very fact that the amp has survived for 30 years indicates that the reliability of *that amp* is proven; it does not mean that, when it was brand-new, other examples didn’t become fireplaces. -pk <snip There are well built marshalls and half ass marshalls. I’ve used 30 year old marshalls without a hitch and had a brand new JCM900 shoot smoke after 15 minutes. <Snip

Response:

"In closing this discussion, one should bear in mind that there is absolutely no sonic difference between point to point and printed circuit board wiring. Detractors of PC boards have argued that they are less reliable do to cracked solder joints or failure prone do to burned traces – neither of these complaints are even an issue with a properly designed board." heres the rest: http://www.soldano.com/mharticle.htm

thanks for the url! See soldano *had* to add that "properly designed" remark didn’t he A PCB amp with shoddy workmanship(basically i would consider any former PtP amp model redesigned with PCB to save mfg costs Shoddy) is probably what most people are going to be able to afford. An 1800 dollar Soldano head probably has more actual man hours/burn in than a crate or even a marshall. It also has much more attention to detail/QA. I’d think we both agree that the new Marshalls aren’t as good (sound wise and durability wise) as older models, the 800 and older.

oh yeah… the 900s on up don’t do anything for me at all. They sound very flat and have no "life" to them. mind you i don’t use pedals or outboard devices, Guitar-Cord-Amp and if i need anymore than that then I’m playing the wrong amp. cheers davey http://listen.to/tiltwheel Home of the tiltwheel Founders of the United States Frankie Core

Response:

mind you i don’t use pedals or outboard devices, Guitar-Cord-Amp and if

i need anymore than that then I’m playing the wrong amp.

Is there any other way? steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cheers davey http://listen.to/tiltwheel Home of the tiltwheel Founders of the United States Frankie Core

Response:

Well, my Soldano is partially PCB, and partially PtP, so does that mean my amp sucks?  And my tone must suck also, as a result of that nasty PCB board. Looks like I just wasted $1800.  The point of this rant is that there is ZERO differance in tone in a PtP amp and a PCB one. Rob, the point is, PCB, if done correctly, is just as good as PtP.  I don’t, however, know any prices for the 900.  I do know that a decent (not too beat up, relatively new tubes, no mods….) JCM 800 shouldn’t cost over $400. steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the best amp for a rock band? my opinion: One with high gain, no PC Board and not too many knobs What is the best Marshall amp? I’m partial to old JMP Mark ____ How good is the JCM900? its PCB based so its not actually as great an amp as youd like to think.

Early 800s are still point to point. 800’s sound much better to me than 900s there is a world of difference in tone and gain. What is the best new and used price for a JCM900? Don’t know about new but my rule is: don’t ever pay more than 350 for a

used(non-classic/black color) marshall. Esp. one thats PCB based.  I’d never buy a new amplifier, for some reason I’d trust anything thats

been running for 10-20 years over some shiny new thing with the same parts as a nintendo. I’ve been through that… broken

boards, ordering shop manuals, inability to order parts after only 3 years… its a nightmare, you get an amp with PtP

wiring, BOOM! repaired in 24 hours! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cheers davey Thanks! Rob Z I’ll be buying one in 6 months,,,,I’m just doing the research now, keeping my eye out for an awesome deal. Robert M. Ziruolo at FGCU, Florida [][]—-[][] http://listen.to/tiltwheel Home of the tiltwheel Founders of the United States Frankie Core

Response:

What is the best amp for a rock band? What is the best Marshall amp? How good is the JCM900? What is the best new and used price for a JCM900? Thanks! Rob Z I’ll be buying one in 6 months,,,,I’m just doing the research now, keeping my eye out for an awesome deal.   Robert M. Ziruolo at FGCU, Florida [][]—-[][]

Response:

What is the best amp for a rock band?

my opinion: One with high gain, no PC Board and not too many knobs What is the best Marshall amp?

I’m partial to old JMP Mark ____ How good is the JCM900?

its PCB based so its not actually as great an amp as youd like to think. Early 800s are still point to point. 800’s sound much better to me than 900s there is a world of difference in tone and gain. What is the best new and used price for a JCM900?

Don’t know about new but my rule is: don’t ever pay more than 350 for a used(non-classic/black color) marshall. Esp. one thats PCB based.  I’d never buy a new amplifier, for some reason I’d trust anything thats been running for 10-20 years over some shiny new thing with the same parts as a nintendo. I’ve been through that… broken boards, ordering shop manuals, inability to order parts after only 3 years… its a nightmare, you get an amp with PtP wiring, BOOM! repaired in 24 hours! cheers davey Thanks! Rob Z I’ll be buying one in 6 months,,,,I’m just doing the research now, keeping my eye out for an awesome deal.   Robert M. Ziruolo at FGCU, Florida [][]—-[][]

http://listen.to/tiltwheel Home of the tiltwheel Founders of the United States Frankie Core

Response:

Question:

Can anyone tell me anything about these two accounting software?  Which one is better? Lawrence

Response:

Can anyone tell me anything about these two accounting software?  Which one is better?

Hi Lawrence: Ask the sellers. They are from different divisions of the same company.       Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.                  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester QB add-ons/seminars http://www.blocktax.com        Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, don’t worry, I won’t be asking you for a date…and I’m sure the feeling’s mutual… RJRUBY Ya gotta love Usenet!  When you make an intelligent, factual, well thought out response to a post, and people know that you’re right, they come back with tripe like this. Go ahead, insult me.  It just proves that I’m right. What’s to reply to…you come across as an angry woman who has no understanding and compassion for some of the issues being stated here by many men on this n-g. Stating reams statistics to defend the other side of the coin would make no difference to you. But, hey, whatever floats yer boat….I’m just sorry you got screwed by your parent’s divorce. BTW, my parents divorced and I am divorced, too…and I am the CP of my son. But, hey, what do I know…I just post tripe..I’ll take mine with some garlic and pakrika.. :^) RJRUBY

I thought it was funny. Broke the tension. Hey, some guys would have slammed her back. You’re a nice guy, right? She just didn’t know how to take you.  Oh and by the way, GJP this is the third father who is a CP that I have seen post this ng today. I’m going to start keeping track. Ha ha… just joking. DS Jones

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes You were doing pretty good until you slipped into that "every penny" piece of rhetoric.  Father’s rights.  Good cause.  Let’s not discredit it by appearing overzealous or reactionary. — Dan                       FATHERS RIGHTS We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights:  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our  children as the mothers;  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social  activities;  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s life,  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities;  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to paying  child support; And in situations where child support is to be paid,  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or theoretical  income;  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished;  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money is  spent; and  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother. Right now, I’d settle for any accounting. And a lot of CPs would be happy to get some CS to account *for*! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html Ah, the usual drum beat.  Pat, as you well know, the vast majority of men who have the means to pay their child support pay it on time every time. And those who do have the means but don’t pay?

Why don’t you throw them in prison.  Ooops they already do that when the extended family can’t afford to do that. And what about the CP’s whose ex can’t afford to help out… do the kids eat fresh air?

How about they get food stamps that has no time limit. Hell, I used to account to my ex on a relatively casual basis for *my* money that I spent on *our* kids when he spent NOTHING!!! Should he have been accounting to the penny (to me) for how he managed to live his lifestyle (better than mine if looked at superficially – new furniture, new clothes etc) yet still be too poor to help with the kids’ expenses? If not, why not?

You were begging….and for all we know he didn’t have the money.  You as a CP should have had other means. That’s what you are asking for. Remember – *I* was paying his share of the CS because he did not! Why shouldn’t he have accounted to me?

Well it seems their are an awful lot of men in that position.  And although there are many women who carry their load…if they do not want to there is always the State and taxpayers. It’s not enough that you know what *your* portion of the CS is spent on… you want an accounting of what the CP does with *her* money for the kids in order to be sure you aren’t supporting her!

Why not since it is supposed to go for the children.  accounting is coming or more reasonable Does she have the right to see what you spent money on while the kids were with you? Does she have the right to know what your general household bills are?

That is part of the normal CS guideline award establishment and modification procedure.  Of course there isn’t much accounting to do over a few hundred bucks. What happens when she proves (audited accounts) that the amount you pay in CS is less than half of the cost of raising the kids? Does she get to look in your bank accounts and household arrangements then? If not, why not?

Always deflect to the very poor to keep the cash transfers going to the ones receiving large lifestyle support/backdoor alimony. Predictable. Greg Palumbo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your definition of "to the child"?  Should Mom be writing 13 year old Kid a check for a couple hundred dollars every week to use as Kid sees fit?  What if Kid thinks that he really needs drugs instead of lunch?  Should 8 year old Kid be responsible for buying his own clothes/shoes/food/toys/pets/books/etc.?  Are you going to send the children of divorced parents to accounting classes so that they can handle the responsibility of this? Or do you mean that you’re afraid that Mom is going out and getting pedicures with "your" or "your kid’s" money?  Wake up and smell the java, boys, it’s hard enough to manage personal finances when you’re a single mother who probably works full time (or more).  I don’t know any woman who has the time or the inclination to worry about which dollar is ear-marked for and from whom!

You are trying to be a troll. Q.What part of my C$ goes to my child?                               A.About 10%. The rest the mother uses as her personal income. She pays no rent, does not pay for food, rarely buys him clothes. His grandparents supply the housing and food. I would much rather pay them. Your argument sure sounds like "gimme tha money". Lets’ role play a little.  I’m your ex-wife, I’m remarried, we have one child, and you want me to "account for" "every penny" of your meager support.  Say that the following components are ALL the money that is required to raise a child (which they are not):

She’s single still. Does not apply. BTW, I’ve never asked for ‘every penny’ accountability, just a rough estimate. Shelter N/A Food N/A Clothing 10% of C$. School Expenses (books, notebooks, etc) School Extras (yearbooks, dances, trips, band instruments, lessons, etc.)

I pay extra for these above C$. Transportation

Either grandparents transport, or I do. In the case of visitation, I alone do each and every time, period. Are you REALLY suggesting that I divide my rent ($600) into 3 (one share for me, my new husband, and one for kid) pro-rate it to a weekly rate ($200/4 = $50) and make sure that $25 (half you, half me) of your weekly support goes into the rent payment for the kid’s share of the rent?

No, actually unless the child gets the appreciation of the house and 1/3 of the money when it’s sold you shouldn’t count a full 33% of the cost. When the child is 18, they leave. Or were you planning on estimating the worth and giving them 33% of the value? Utilities – conservative estimate – $200/month.  Divided by 3 people, that’s $66.67 a month or $16.67 a week divided in half is $8.34.

I live alone, to heat the house costs X amount. Another living here would be just as warm with no added expense. Phone, only LD calls would be counted unless you only have a phone for the child. Then I have to save a certain percentage of "your money", which we have agreed should be set aside for clothes, for long enough to buy these clothes?  Let’s set aside $2 a week for clothes.  That’s $104 a year. Am I allowed to pay ONLY $104, so it’s fair?

Am I to understand that this is half or were you planning on me paying for it all like my real ex does?  What if Kid needs a dress for the prom or new shoes in an emergency or something?  Do I have to call and get half from you?  What if you don’t want to pay it?  What do I tell OUR Kid, who I am trying to be FAIR and EQUAL in the division of?

Do what my ex does, "If you don’t pay this _______, you’ll never see your son again and I’ll make sure he doesn’t want to see you either". Any of you ever hear of King Solomon?

Did he have to pay extravigant C$ as well? Ok, we’re up to $35.34 a week.

No, you are. Let’s say book rental is $100 a semester – divided over 26 weeks per semester – that’s what, $3.85 per week for books – half of that is $1.93.  I have to save that in a separate file marked "books" so that I don’t accidentally spend unfairly?

Book rental? WE don’t have that.  Ok, what about notebooks, pencils, lunches, etc.?  Let’s conservatively say that all of the other expenses for school work out to $500 a year – that’s another $4.81 a week… You’re up to $37.27.

No, again you are. And you’re too high. Oh shit, what about the 12 weeks the kid isn’t in school?  I don’t have time to figure that out …  Anyway…

As much as possible, he’s with me. Let’s say that groceries cost $150 a week for a family of 3.  That’s another $50 for Kid’s share, half of that is $25 – you’re up to $62.27.

I don’t think this is a fair distrubiton either. Does this include all groceries? If so then I am subsidizing you and your husband. It varies as well by location. What it costs in L.A. for instance is far above what it would cost in say, Tulsa. Those "Quality of Life" extras that Kid needs will probably cost more, but lets figure it at $1000 a year – for EVERYTHING.  That’s $500 a year (half) divided by 52 weeks – another $9.62 a week.

What is the quality of life, your way of saying YOUR quality of living? $1000 a year? For what? I like to know what I’m paying for. $71.89/week

Still your figure, not mine. Now comes the hard part, transportation.  I have to have a car to get to work so I can support my half of Kid.  That’s my responsibility.  I pay $400 a month car payment and $200 a month insurance.  Let’s see.  How can we decide what percentage of that fee is going to Kid?  What about gas, oil changes, maintenance, etc?  Let’s just figure a third of that expense as Kid’s…  $200 a month in half is $100, $25 a week, that brings you up to $96.89 per week that I CAN account for…

How about using mileage, there are gov’t figures on this but I don’t know what they are; somewhere around $.22 a mile. What about McDonalds when Kid just "deserves a break" from my lousy cooking?

This is covered under food, even if it comes from Ronnie Mac’s.  What about birthday presents for friends?  What about allowance?

I am the only one of my child’s parents that give him an allowance.  What about HIS car insurance and car payment when HE starts driving?

Historically, I will surely have to supply it all.  Are you going to pay the exact amount of half of the support of this child every month?  Should I keep track of every penny I spend on his behalf and you can reimburse me for half at the end of each month?  You can be that I’m going to go get him that $200 pair of shoes if I’m pissed at you – just to make you pay an unexpected expense!!!

Now you are sounding like my ex wife!! All of the income that I receive, as Mom, goes into the checking account, and I use all of it for what WE, as a family need.  I don’t worry about which dollar bill came from who.  I don’t have time for that, and you shouldn’t care as long as your child is fed, clothed, and happy.

Just shut up and pay the money, right? Hardly, I’m being extorted and it don’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. What if I reserve the right to send him to you for every other temper tantrum, every other dirty diaper, every other arguement, every other time he breaks the rules?  What if you live across the country from us? Are you going to pay for exactly half of the flights back and forth?

That would be fair, as it is, I have to foot the entire bill each and every time. Grow up, get real, and get a life.

I wonder which of us needs to grow up and get a life? You are nowhere near real yet. All your figures are of no use in my case. Stop pouting that you’ve been treated unfairly by your evil ex’s, and go spend time with your children rather than wasting all this energy being pissed off and feeling like you’ve been treated unfairly.

You really don’t have a clue do you? I suppose you don’t get angry, even when you are being mistreated because of your gender? And I’m supposed to just take it, smile and go on? I don’t think so. She’s using the child for the money and I think she should be stopped. It’s more than ‘feeling’ I’ve been mistreated, it’s a fact in nearly every divorce with children in this country…   If you can’t see your kids whenever you want to, one of three things is going on 1) You ex wife thinks there’s a reason to keep you away from them, 2) Your kids are busy and have other things taking up their time that you are going to have to work around, or 3) Your kids are pissed off at you, or don’t like you, or just don’t want to see you for their own reasons. You can’t blame lack of visitation solely on the mom.  When was the last time you TRIED to see them, anyway?

Let’s see, she uses the visitation as a weapon to get even more money out of me. Which one of the three does this fall under? My son loves to visit me, btw. Incidentally, I am not a mother, and have never been married.  I am a child of a divorce…  If I can have this much insight into the reality of the situation as a CHILD, WHY CAN’T YOU?

Mostly because I am living through the reality, your are living in a dream. What you have is most definately NOT insight. I am living through the situation that you don’t have a clue about, nor do you even know what you are talking about. If you want to send money to someone for no good reason, I don’t mind. Amy

I should have guessed you’re not a mother nor a wife. With God’s help you’ll never be either with that attitude. In the mean time, why don’t you check out divorce laws in the U.S. today. You may be surprised. You are a troll.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying        child support; How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t come to court with that already agreed to? What I really don’t understand is why, apparently, getting custody half the time in order to avaoid CS means the parent won’t have to spend money on the child!  :-) Perhaps this is the way you think but the vast majority of men who don’t have custody want it so that they can spend the time with their children and provide for their children’s needs.

But the vast majority of men are already providing for the (financial) needs of their child, and the mother is spending what the father provides on that child *in addition* to the share that she provides and spends on them. Or do you have stats that *prove* (not suggest) that most mothers receiving CS do not spend it directly or indirectly for the benefit of the child? The sad thing is when parents are trying to get custody for the sake of their wallet rather than for the sake of the child. It’s sick, whichever parent does it! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html The vast majority of men want custody of their children for the sake of their children.  Its in the child’s best interests.

Of course it is in the best interests of the child for the child to have good contact with both parents (assuming both are reasonable parents). But that has nothing to do with money!!! If I’d thought that one had to be able to supply money to be a good parent my ex would never have had any contact with his kids after the split because he never contributed financially towards their keep after the split… but no… he had more or less open access to them any time he liked and generally saw them every weekend (often with me sending a large bag of food for/with them [inc him] for the weekend)! Try again!!! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

Response:

Well, don’t worry, I won’t be asking you for a date…and I’m sure the feeling’s mutual… RJRUBY Ya gotta love Usenet!  When you make an intelligent, factual, well thought out response to a post, and people know that you’re right, they come back with tripe like this. Go ahead, insult me.  It just proves that I’m right.

You’re not right.  Having not experienced these injustices firsthand, you cannot relate to them.   — *Support the rights of divorced fathers to be parents!* *  Surf to http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/5066  * *        The site NOW doesn’t want you to see!        * ***Current*Events**Helpful*Tips**Chat**Wall*of*Shame***

Response:

Well, if Amy grew up along with you that would cheer such a statement, just realize that punitive CS awards and vindictive wives interfere with visitation with children. If the only place where the child can be exposed to an acceptable standard of living is the CPs because the NCP is being unfairly assessed, the child is even endangered.  For example, how safe an automobile can my friend afford when he has $800 a month left after paying his ex. Punitive awards must be eliminated girls, because it will improve the relationship of children with their fathers…a relationship every bit as important as that of the mother. I would love to trade places with my ex.  LOVE TO!! Larry

:Amy… I raise my glass to you – go girl! : :Sandi : :: <<Snipped for redundancy :: ::  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by :the :: mother. :: :: Right now, I’d settle for any accounting. :: :: And a lot of CPs would be happy to get some CS to account *for*! :: :: Pat Winstanley :: http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html :: :: But it remains a fact that those that do get C$, don’t and don’t have :to :: account for the expeditures. It may go to the child but not :necessarily. :: :: What is your definition of "to the child"?  Should Mom be writing 13 :: year old Kid a check for a couple hundred dollars every week to use as :: Kid sees fit?  What if Kid thinks that he really needs drugs instead of :: lunch?  Should 8 year old Kid be responsible for buying his own :: clothes/shoes/food/toys/pets/books/etc.?  Are you going to send the :: children of divorced parents to accounting classes so that they can :: handle the responsibility of this? :: :: Or do you mean that you’re afraid that Mom is going out and getting :: pedicures with "your" or "your kid’s" money?  Wake up and smell the :: java, boys, it’s hard enough to manage personal finances when you’re a :: single mother who probably works full time (or more).  I don’t know any :: woman who has the time or the inclination to worry about which dollar is :: ear-marked for and from whom! :: :: Lets’ role play a little.  I’m your ex-wife, I’m remarried, we have one :: child, and you want me to "account for" "every penny" of your meager :: support.  Say that the following components are ALL the money that is :: required to raise a child (which they are not): :: :: Shelter :: Food :: Clothing :: School Expenses (books, notebooks, etc) :: School Extras (yearbooks, dances, trips, band instruments, lessons, :: etc.) :: Transportation :: :: Are you REALLY suggesting that I divide my rent ($600) into 3 (one share :: for me, my new husband, and one for kid) pro-rate it to a weekly rate :: ($200/4 = $50) and make sure that $25 (half you, half me) of your weekly :: support goes into the rent payment for the kid’s share of the rent? :: :: Utilities – conservative estimate – $200/month.  Divided by 3 people, :: that’s $66.67 a month or $16.67 a week divided in half is $8.34. :: :: Then I have to save a certain percentage of "your money", which we have :: agreed should be set aside for clothes, for long enough to buy these :: clothes?  Let’s set aside $2 a week for clothes.  That’s $104 a year. :: Am I allowed to pay ONLY $104, so it’s fair?  What if Kid needs a dress :: for the prom or new shoes in an emergency or something?  Do I have to :: call and get half from you?  What if you don’t want to pay it?  What do :: I tell OUR Kid, who I am trying to be FAIR and EQUAL in the division of? :: :: Any of you ever hear of King Solomon? :: :: Ok, we’re up to $35.34 a week. :: :: Let’s say book rental is $100 a semester – divided over 26 weeks per :: semester – that’s what, $3.85 per week for books – half of that is :: $1.93.  I have to save that in a separate file marked "books" so that I :: don’t accidentally spend unfairly?  Ok, what about notebooks, pencils, :: lunches, etc.?  Let’s conservatively say that all of the other expenses :: for school work out to $500 a year – that’s another $4.81 a week… :: You’re up to $37.27. :: :: Oh shit, what about the 12 weeks the kid isn’t in school?  I don’t have :: time to figure that out …  Anyway… :: :: Let’s say that groceries cost $150 a week for a family of 3.  That’s :: another $50 for Kid’s share, half of that is $25 – you’re up to $62.27. :: :: Those "Quality of Life" extras that Kid needs will probably cost more, :: but lets figure it at $1000 a year – for EVERYTHING.  That’s $500 a year :: (half) divided by 52 weeks – another $9.62 a week. :: :: $71.89/week :: :: Now comes the hard part, transportation.  I have to have a car to get to :: work so I can support my half of Kid.  That’s my responsibility.  I pay :: $400 a month car payment and $200 a month insurance.  Let’s see.  How :: can we decide what percentage of that fee is going to Kid?  What about :: gas, oil changes, maintenance, etc?  Let’s just figure a third of that :: expense as Kid’s…  $200 a month in half is $100, $25 a week, that :: brings you up to $96.89 per week that I CAN account for… :: :: What about McDonalds when Kid just "deserves a break" from my lousy :: cooking?  What about birthday presents for friends?  What about :: allowance?  What about HIS car insurance and car payment when HE starts :: driving?  Are you going to pay the exact amount of half of the support :: of this child every month?  Should I keep track of every penny I spend :: on his behalf and you can reimburse me for half at the end of each :: month?  You can be that I’m going to go get him that $200 pair of shoes :: if I’m pissed at you – just to make you pay an unexpected expense!!! :: :: All of the income that I receive, as Mom, goes into the checking :: account, and I use all of it for what WE, as a family need.  I don’t :: worry about which dollar bill came from who.  I don’t have time for :: that, and you shouldn’t care as long as your child is fed, clothed, and :: happy. :: :: What if I reserve the right to send him to you for every other temper :: tantrum, every other dirty diaper, every other arguement, every other :: time he breaks the rules?  What if you live across the country from us? :: Are you going to pay for exactly half of the flights back and forth? :: :: Grow up, get real, and get a life. :: :: Stop pouting that you’ve been treated unfairly by your evil ex’s, and go :: spend time with your children rather than wasting all this energy being :: pissed off and feeling like you’ve been treated unfairly.  If you can’t :: see your kids whenever you want to, one of three things is going on 1) :: You ex wife thinks there’s a reason to keep you away from them, 2) Your :: kids are busy and have other things taking up their time that you are :: going to have to work around, or 3) Your kids are pissed off at you, or :: don’t like you, or just don’t want to see you for their own reasons. :: You can’t blame lack of visitation solely on the mom.  When was the last :: time you TRIED to see them, anyway? :: :: Incidentally, I am not a mother, and have never been married.  I am a :: child of a divorce…  If I can have this much insight into the reality :: of the situation as a CHILD, WHY CAN’T YOU? :: :: Amy ::

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<Snipped for redundancy  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother. Right now, I’d settle for any accounting. And a lot of CPs would be happy to get some CS to account *for*! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html But it remains a fact that those that do get C$, don’t and don’t have to account for the expeditures. It may go to the child but not necessarily. What is your definition of "to the child"?  Should Mom be writing 13 year old Kid a check for a couple hundred dollars every week to use as Kid sees fit?  What if Kid thinks that he really needs drugs instead of lunch?  Should 8 year old Kid be responsible for buying his own clothes/shoes/food/toys/pets/books/etc.?  Are you going to send the children of divorced parents to accounting classes so that they can handle the responsibility of this? Or do you mean that you’re afraid that Mom is going out and getting pedicures with "your" or "your kid’s" money?  Wake up and smell the java, boys, it’s hard enough to manage personal finances when you’re a single mother who probably works full time (or more).  I don’t know any woman who has the time or the inclination to worry about which dollar is ear-marked for and from whom! Lets’ role play a little.  I’m your ex-wife, I’m remarried, we have one child, and you want me to "account for" "every penny" of your meager support.  Say that the following components are ALL the money that is required to raise a child (which they are not): Shelter Food Clothing School Expenses (books, notebooks, etc) School Extras (yearbooks, dances, trips, band instruments, lessons, etc.) Transportation Are you REALLY suggesting that I divide my rent ($600) into 3 (one share for me, my new husband, and one for kid) pro-rate it to a weekly rate ($200/4 = $50) and make sure that $25 (half you, half me) of your weekly support goes into the rent payment for the kid’s share of the rent? Utilities – conservative estimate – $200/month.  Divided by 3 people, that’s $66.67 a month or $16.67 a week divided in half is $8.34. Then I have to save a certain percentage of "your money", which we have agreed should be set aside for clothes, for long enough to buy these clothes?  Let’s set aside $2 a week for clothes.  That’s $104 a year. Am I allowed to pay ONLY $104, so it’s fair?  What if Kid needs a dress for the prom or new shoes in an emergency or something?  Do I have to call and get half from you?  What if you don’t want to pay it?  What do I tell OUR Kid, who I am trying to be FAIR and EQUAL in the division of? Any of you ever hear of King Solomon? Ok, we’re up to $35.34 a week. Let’s say book rental is $100 a semester – divided over 26 weeks per semester – that’s what, $3.85 per week for books – half of that is $1.93.  I have to save that in a separate file marked "books" so that I don’t accidentally spend unfairly?  Ok, what about notebooks, pencils, lunches, etc.?  Let’s conservatively say that all of the other expenses for school work out to $500 a year – that’s another $4.81 a week… You’re up to $37.27. Oh shit, what about the 12 weeks the kid isn’t in school?  I don’t have time to figure that out …  Anyway… Let’s say that groceries cost $150 a week for a family of 3.  That’s another $50 for Kid’s share, half of that is $25 – you’re up to $62.27. Those "Quality of Life" extras that Kid needs will probably cost more, but lets figure it at $1000 a year – for EVERYTHING.  That’s $500 a year (half) divided by 52 weeks – another $9.62 a week. $71.89/week Now comes the hard part, transportation.  I have to have a car to get to work so I can support my half of Kid.  That’s my responsibility.  I pay $400 a month car payment and $200 a month insurance.  Let’s see.  How can we decide what percentage of that fee is going to Kid?  What about gas, oil changes, maintenance, etc?  Let’s just figure a third of that expense as Kid’s…  $200 a month in half is $100, $25 a week, that brings you up to $96.89 per week that I CAN account for… What about McDonalds when Kid just "deserves a break" from my lousy cooking?  What about birthday presents for friends?  What about allowance?  What about HIS car insurance and car payment when HE starts driving?  Are you going to pay the exact amount of half of the support of this child every month?  Should I keep track of every penny I spend on his behalf and you can reimburse me for half at the end of each month?  You can be that I’m going to go get him that $200 pair of shoes if I’m pissed at you – just to make you pay an unexpected expense!!! All of the income that I receive, as Mom, goes into the checking account, and I use all of it for what WE, as a family need.  I don’t worry about which dollar bill came from who.  I don’t have time for that, and you shouldn’t care as long as your child is fed, clothed, and happy. What if I reserve the right to send him to you for every other temper tantrum, every other dirty diaper, every other arguement, every other time he breaks the rules?  What if you live across the country from us? Are you going to pay for exactly half of the flights back and forth? Grow up, get real, and get a life. Stop pouting that you’ve been treated unfairly by your evil ex’s, and go spend time with your children rather than wasting all this energy being pissed off and feeling like you’ve been treated unfairly.  If you can’t see your kids whenever you want to, one of three things is going on 1) You ex wife thinks there’s a reason to keep you away from them, 2) Your kids are busy and have other things taking up their time that you are going to have to work around, or 3) Your kids are pissed off at you, or don’t like you, or just don’t want to see you for their own reasons. You can’t blame lack of visitation solely on the mom.  When was the last time you TRIED to see them, anyway? Incidentally, I am not a mother, and have never been married.  I am a child of a divorce…  If I can have this much insight into the reality of the situation as a CHILD, WHY CAN’T YOU? Amy

Amy, I must say that you have a valid point taken from a childs point of view.  And, that is what you have shown is a childs point of view.  As you have not yet figured it out yet, I’ll tell you the ugly truth.  LIFE IS NOT FAIR!  What gives the CP, a person the support court judges take for what is on a piece of paper.  The judge can give a shit less what evidence of fraud or abuse the NCP has against the CP for not caring for the child.  The NCP is just trying to get even, right?  The NCP has no true concern for what is in the "BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD" and certainly no CP has ever abused the law (AFDC or NON-AFDC) to stay off their lazy ass while the NPC is forced to work and pay their fair share of support.  The child should be supported by both parents equally, have the same amount of contact with both parents, that is unless one of the parents is unable to care for their half of support.  If a person, oh since you did it I will too, say has one child.  The parents divorce and support is set to federal guildlines.  However, during the marriage the but after the seperation the now CP has a couple of children not belonging to the NCP (this is a true case)sues the NCP and two other persons for the paternity.  The father of one of the children is found and support is ordered.  The mother remains on welfare collecting from her ex, the new father of the second child, all while living with the father of her last two children.  By the way the last dad in this mess lives with the mother (and has for 9 of the 9 years since the seperation) but he does not appear on any of her claims for AFDC.  However, at this time she does not have to pay her (the mother’s) share of the childs care we the tax payers are, not the live-in boy toy.   Also, let me point out to you that, most courts in a support action hear the fathers side of the story, but don’t allow them the ability to cross examine the prosecution witnesses.  Why you might ask, simple one govt. agency sent a piece of paper she (the mother) signed saying it’s true that you are the father, that you abandoned the family unit with no intent to return.  Judge reads that (by the way you haven’t seen this application for AFDC or read it), he then asks if you are the papa, without revealing any of the other facts in the application.  Later, the ex spouse can prove to the court the mother’s fraudulent claim on the application that she was abandoned (you see, she had to lie or AFDC would not help her get supposed child support).  Yet, this little lie has probably cost the child the love of one of their parents, countless legal expenses trying to regain custody or just a visit, and quite frankly a whole lot of bullshit just trying to learn the truth of daddy and why mommy has told all these lies. The judge will be glad to tell you he sees things your way Amy and no accounting will be ordered. But, can you honestly say that you KNOW this woman in this scenario is going to have her first childs interest in mind when she gets her check, knowing she didn’t think about that childs welfare and best interest when she had 3 other children out of wedlock (a lack of concern financially),  3 different fathers of her children (a lack of concern morally), and lied to get free money (so she didn’t have to work, an ethical lack).  You know the answer is no.   You should be proud that your morality and ethics are so high after being a child of divorced parents.  But, you should hopefully now see that not all CP’s are as dedicated to their children as you someday … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<Snipped for redundancy  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother. Right now, I’d settle for any accounting. And a lot of CPs would be happy to get some CS to account *for*! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html But it remains a fact that those that do get C$, don’t and don’t have to account for the expeditures. It may go to the child but not necessarily. What is your definition of "to the child"?  Should Mom be writing 13 year old Kid a check for a couple hundred dollars every week to use as Kid sees fit?  What if Kid thinks that he really needs drugs instead of lunch?  Should 8 year old Kid be responsible for buying his own clothes/shoes/food/toys/pets/books/etc.?  Are you going to send the children of divorced parents to accounting classes so that they can handle the responsibility of this? Or do you mean that you’re afraid that Mom is going out and getting pedicures with "your" or "your kid’s" money?  Wake up and smell the java, boys, it’s hard enough to manage personal finances when you’re a single mother who probably works full time (or more).  I don’t know any woman who has the time or the inclination to worry about which dollar is ear-marked for and from whom! Lets’ role play a little.  I’m your ex-wife, I’m remarried, we have one child, and you want me to "account for" "every penny" of your meager support.  Say that the following components are ALL the money that is required to raise a child (which they are not): Shelter Food Clothing School Expenses (books, notebooks, etc) School Extras (yearbooks, dances, trips, band instruments, lessons, etc.) Transportation Are you REALLY suggesting that I divide my rent ($600) into 3 (one share for me, my new husband, and one for kid) pro-rate it to a weekly rate ($200/4 = $50) and make sure that $25 (half you, half me) of your weekly support goes into the rent payment for the kid’s share of the rent? Utilities – conservative estimate – $200/month.  Divided by 3 people, that’s $66.67 a month or $16.67 a week divided in half is $8.34. Then I have to save a certain percentage of "your money", which we have agreed should be set aside for clothes, for long enough to buy these clothes?  Let’s set aside $2 a week for clothes.  That’s $104 a year. Am I allowed to pay ONLY $104, so it’s fair?  What if Kid needs a dress for the prom or new shoes in an emergency or something?  Do I have to call and get half from you?  What if you don’t want to pay it?  What do I tell OUR Kid, who I am trying to be FAIR and EQUAL in the division of? Any of you ever hear of King Solomon? Ok, we’re up to $35.34 a week. Let’s say book rental is $100 a semester – divided over 26 weeks per semester – that’s what, $3.85 per week for books – half of that is $1.93.  I have to save that in a separate file marked "books" so that I don’t accidentally spend unfairly?  Ok, what about notebooks, pencils, lunches, etc.?  Let’s conservatively say that all of the other expenses for school work out to $500 a year – that’s another $4.81 a week… You’re up to $37.27. Oh shit, what about the 12 weeks the kid isn’t in school?  I don’t have time to figure that out …  Anyway… Let’s say that groceries cost $150 a week for a family of 3.  That’s another $50 for Kid’s share, half of that is $25 – you’re up to $62.27. Those "Quality of Life" extras that Kid needs will probably cost more, but lets figure it at $1000 a year – for EVERYTHING.  That’s $500 a year (half) divided by 52 weeks – another $9.62 a week. $71.89/week Now comes the hard part, transportation.  I have to have a car to get to work so I can support my half of Kid.  That’s my responsibility.  I pay $400 a month car payment and $200 a month insurance.  Let’s see.  How can we decide what percentage of that fee is going to Kid?  What about gas, oil changes, maintenance, etc?  Let’s just figure a third of that expense as Kid’s…  $200 a month in half is $100, $25 a week, that brings you up to $96.89 per week that I CAN account for… What about McDonalds when Kid just "deserves a break" from my lousy cooking?  What about birthday presents for friends?  What about allowance?  What about HIS car insurance and car payment when HE starts driving?  Are you going to pay the exact amount of half of the support of this child every month?  Should I keep track of every penny I spend on his behalf and you can reimburse me for half at the end of each month?  You can be that I’m going to go get him that $200 pair of shoes if I’m pissed at you – just to make you pay an unexpected expense!!! All of the income that I receive, as Mom, goes into the checking account, and I use all of it for what WE, as a family need.  I don’t worry about which dollar bill came from who.  I don’t have time for that, and you shouldn’t care as long as your child is fed, clothed, and happy. What if I reserve the right to send him to you for every other temper tantrum, every other dirty diaper, every other arguement, every other time he breaks the rules?  What if you live across the country from us? Are you going to pay for exactly half of the flights back and forth? Grow up, get real, and get a life. Stop pouting that you’ve been treated unfairly by your evil ex’s, and go spend time with your children rather than wasting all this energy being pissed off and feeling like you’ve been treated unfairly.  If you can’t see your kids whenever you want to, one of three things is going on 1) You ex wife thinks there’s a reason to keep you away from them, 2) Your kids are busy and have other things taking up their time that you are going to have to work around, or 3) Your kids are pissed off at you, or don’t like you, or just don’t want to see you for their own reasons. You can’t blame lack of visitation solely on the mom.  When was the last time you TRIED to see them, anyway? Incidentally, I am not a mother, and have never been married.  I am a child of a divorce…  If I can have this much insight into the reality of the situation as a CHILD, WHY CAN’T YOU? Amy

Well, don’t worry, I won’t be asking you for a date…and I’m sure the feeling’s mutual… RJRUBY

Response:

<<Snipped for redundancy  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother. Right now, I’d settle for any accounting. And a lot of CPs would be happy to get some CS to account *for*! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html But it remains a fact that those that do get C$, don’t and don’t have to account for the expeditures. It may go to the child but not necessarily.

What is your definition of "to the child"?  Should Mom be writing 13 year old Kid a check for a couple hundred dollars every week to use as Kid sees fit?  What if Kid thinks that he really needs drugs instead of lunch?  Should 8 year old Kid be responsible for buying his own clothes/shoes/food/toys/pets/books/etc.?  Are you going to send the children of divorced parents to accounting classes so that they can handle the responsibility of this? Or do you mean that you’re afraid that Mom is going out and getting pedicures with "your" or "your kid’s" money?  Wake up and smell the java, boys, it’s hard enough to manage personal finances when you’re a single mother who probably works full time (or more).  I don’t know any woman who has the time or the inclination to worry about which dollar is ear-marked for and from whom! Lets’ role play a little.  I’m your ex-wife, I’m remarried, we have one child, and you want me to "account for" "every penny" of your meager support.  Say that the following components are ALL the money that is required to raise a child (which they are not): Shelter Food Clothing School Expenses (books, notebooks, etc) School Extras (yearbooks, dances, trips, band instruments, lessons, etc.) Transportation Are you REALLY suggesting that I divide my rent ($600) into 3 (one share for me, my new husband, and one for kid) pro-rate it to a weekly rate ($200/4 = $50) and make sure that $25 (half you, half me) of your weekly support goes into the rent payment for the kid’s share of the rent? Utilities – conservative estimate – $200/month.  Divided by 3 people, that’s $66.67 a month or $16.67 a week divided in half is $8.34. Then I have to save a certain percentage of "your money", which we have agreed should be set aside for clothes, for long enough to buy these clothes?  Let’s set aside $2 a week for clothes.  That’s $104 a year. Am I allowed to pay ONLY $104, so it’s fair?  What if Kid needs a dress for the prom or new shoes in an emergency or something?  Do I have to call and get half from you?  What if you don’t want to pay it?  What do I tell OUR Kid, who I am trying to be FAIR and EQUAL in the division of? Any of you ever hear of King Solomon? Ok, we’re up to $35.34 a week. Let’s say book rental is $100 a semester – divided over 26 weeks per semester – that’s what, $3.85 per week for books – half of that is $1.93.  I have to save that in a separate file marked "books" so that I don’t accidentally spend unfairly?  Ok, what about notebooks, pencils, lunches, etc.?  Let’s conservatively say that all of the other expenses for school work out to $500 a year – that’s another $4.81 a week… You’re up to $37.27. Oh shit, what about the 12 weeks the kid isn’t in school?  I don’t have time to figure that out …  Anyway… Let’s say that groceries cost $150 a week for a family of 3.  That’s another $50 for Kid’s share, half of that is $25 – you’re up to $62.27. Those "Quality of Life" extras that Kid needs will probably cost more, but lets figure it at $1000 a year – for EVERYTHING.  That’s $500 a year (half) divided by 52 weeks – another $9.62 a week. $71.89/week Now comes the hard part, transportation.  I have to have a car to get to work so I can support my half of Kid.  That’s my responsibility.  I pay $400 a month car payment and $200 a month insurance.  Let’s see.  How can we decide what percentage of that fee is going to Kid?  What about gas, oil changes, maintenance, etc?  Let’s just figure a third of that expense as Kid’s…  $200 a month in half is $100, $25 a week, that brings you up to $96.89 per week that I CAN account for… What about McDonalds when Kid just "deserves a break" from my lousy cooking?  What about birthday presents for friends?  What about allowance?  What about HIS car insurance and car payment when HE starts driving?  Are you going to pay the exact amount of half of the support of this child every month?  Should I keep track of every penny I spend on his behalf and you can reimburse me for half at the end of each month?  You can be that I’m going to go get him that $200 pair of shoes if I’m pissed at you – just to make you pay an unexpected expense!!!   All of the income that I receive, as Mom, goes into the checking account, and I use all of it for what WE, as a family need.  I don’t worry about which dollar bill came from who.  I don’t have time for that, and you shouldn’t care as long as your child is fed, clothed, and happy. What if I reserve the right to send him to you for every other temper tantrum, every other dirty diaper, every other arguement, every other time he breaks the rules?  What if you live across the country from us? Are you going to pay for exactly half of the flights back and forth? Grow up, get real, and get a life. Stop pouting that you’ve been treated unfairly by your evil ex’s, and go spend time with your children rather than wasting all this energy being pissed off and feeling like you’ve been treated unfairly.  If you can’t see your kids whenever you want to, one of three things is going on 1) You ex wife thinks there’s a reason to keep you away from them, 2) Your kids are busy and have other things taking up their time that you are going to have to work around, or 3) Your kids are pissed off at you, or don’t like you, or just don’t want to see you for their own reasons. You can’t blame lack of visitation solely on the mom.  When was the last time you TRIED to see them, anyway?   Incidentally, I am not a mother, and have never been married.  I am a child of a divorce…  If I can have this much insight into the reality of the situation as a CHILD, WHY CAN’T YOU? Amy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying        child support; How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t come to court with that already agreed to? What I really don’t understand is why, apparently, getting custody half the time in order to avaoid CS means the parent won’t have to spend money on the child!  :-) The sad thing is when parents are trying to get custody for the sake of their wallet rather than for the sake of the child. It’s sick, whichever parent does it!

What a bunch of CP money grubbing trash Pat.  The only one with the apparent I deserve the money attitude is you.  Pay me and I will call what you have joint custody is what you are claiming.  Why not hold the child higher and more out and front as you claim it……I am not sure I see the children.   How new!!!!! Greg Palumbo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying        child support; How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t come to court with that already agreed to? What I really don’t understand is why, apparently, getting custody half the time in order to avaoid CS means the parent won’t have to spend money on the child!  :-) The sad thing is when parents are trying to get custody for the sake of their wallet rather than for the sake of the child. It’s sick, whichever parent does it! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

That’s just the point…..WE want to spend the money on the child….NOT the CP.  If we were paying in the form of JC, we would know that our money is going to che child. — *Support the rights of divorced fathers to be parents!* *  Surf to http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/5066  * *        The site NOW doesn’t want you to see!        * ***Current*Events**Helpful*Tips**Chat**Wall*of*Shame***

Response:

writes :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying        child support; How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t come to court with that already agreed to?

What I really don’t understand is why, apparently, getting custody half the time in order to avaoid CS means the parent won’t have to spend money on the child!  :-) The sad thing is when parents are trying to get custody for the sake of their wallet rather than for the sake of the child. It’s sick, whichever parent does it! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

Response:

writes :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying        child support; How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t come to court with that already agreed to? What I really don’t understand is why, apparently, getting custody half the time in order to avaoid CS means the parent won’t have to spend money on the child!  :-)

Perhaps this is the way you think but the vast majority of men who don’t have custody want it so that they can spend the time with their children and provide for their children’s needs. The sad thing is when parents are trying to get custody for the sake of their wallet rather than for the sake of the child. It’s sick, whichever parent does it! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

The vast majority of men want custody of their children for the sake of their children.  Its in the child’s best interests. Rich Soyack

Response:

writes :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying child support; How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t come to court with that already agreed to? What I really don’t understand is why, apparently, getting custody half the time in order to avaoid CS means the parent won’t have to spend money on the child!  :-)

I think the sticking point is giving money to the ex, not spending money on the child.  Anyone with a grain of sense knows that if the child is with you, you’re going to end up spending money on the child — very likely a lot more than you’d expected! The sad thing is when parents are trying to get custody for the sake of their wallet rather than for the sake of the child. It’s sick, whichever parent does it!

That it is.  I have no use for such people. Cici in Texas

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes You were doing pretty good until you slipped into that "every penny" piece of rhetoric.  Father’s rights.  Good cause.  Let’s not discredit it by appearing overzealous or reactionary. — Dan                       FATHERS RIGHTS We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights:  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our  children as the mothers;  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social  activities;  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s life,  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities;  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to paying  child support; And in situations where child support is to be paid,  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or theoretical  income;  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished;  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money is  spent; and  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother. Right now, I’d settle for any accounting. And a lot of CPs would be happy to get some CS to account *for*! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

Ah, the usual drum beat.  Pat, as you well know, the vast majority of men who have the means to pay their child support pay it on time every time. Rich Soyack

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Father’s Rights" You’re forgetting that there are many fathers who can’t be bothered to play such an active role in their children’s lives.  Many divorced parents that I’ve seen have fallen into this pigeon hole – Mom tries to include Dad, Dad is too angry/selfish/apathetic to be bothered with the day-to-day process of raising a child, Mom eventually gives up and figures that she’s done her part to involve Dad – now it’s up to him, Dad remains uninvolved, CHILDREN SUFFER. Too many dads go out and get "new lives" and the children from their first marriage only see them on holidays.  That is not what being a parent is all about. You can have all the bills of rights that you want, but don’t expect your kids to come gift-wrapped to your door whenever you get the whim to be a Disneyland Daddy.  The maintenance of any relationship – whether family, friend, or romantic – takes active involvement and effort from both sides.  You can’t just be a father when it is easy or convenient. And these dads wonder why their ex-wives get bitter and their kids are resentful.  Sheesh. Amy

Too many dads are shoved out of the lives of their children because they are men. Many men would love to be able to even see their children. If some men take this ‘active involvement’ in many cases, they will be locked up. You know little about that which you speak. My ex is bitter, as am I, my child loves us both but hates the fact that we hate each other. The tenor of your post says to me: "it’s all the man’s fault", and you are wrong.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You were doing pretty good until you slipped into that "every penny" piece of rhetoric.  Father’s rights.  Good cause.  Let’s not discredit it by appearing overzealous or reactionary. — Dan                       FATHERS RIGHTS We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights:  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our  children as the mothers;  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social  activities;  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s life,  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities;  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to paying  child support; And in situations where child support is to be paid,  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or theoretical  income;  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished;  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money is  spent; and  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother.

Right now, I’d settle for any accounting.

Response:

:                       FATHERS RIGHTS : : We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created : equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights: : :  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our :  children as the mothers; : :  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s :  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social :  activities; : :  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s life, :  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities; : :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying        child support; : : : And in situations where child support is to be paid, : :  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into : consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or : theoretical  income; : :  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished; : :  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money : is  spent; and : :  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the : mother. : Yeah, well… where does your accountability come in to play here?  

Response:

writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You were doing pretty good until you slipped into that "every penny" piece of rhetoric.  Father’s rights.  Good cause.  Let’s not discredit it by appearing overzealous or reactionary. — Dan                       FATHERS RIGHTS We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights:  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our  children as the mothers;  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social  activities;  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s life,  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities;  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to paying  child support; And in situations where child support is to be paid,  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or theoretical  income;  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished;  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money is  spent; and  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother. Right now, I’d settle for any accounting.

And a lot of CPs would be happy to get some CS to account *for*! Pat Winstanley http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html

Response:

Great reply, Amy… couldn’t have said it better myself… Thanks for saying so eloquently what so many of us as single moms face. Sandi : "Father’s Rights" : : You’re forgetting that there are many fathers who can’t be bothered to : play such an active role in their children’s lives.  Many divorced : parents that I’ve seen have fallen into this pigeon hole – Mom tries to : include Dad, Dad is too angry/selfish/apathetic to be bothered with the : day-to-day process of raising a child, Mom eventually gives up and : figures that she’s done her part to involve Dad – now it’s up to him, : Dad remains uninvolved, CHILDREN SUFFER.   : : Too many dads go out and get "new lives" and the children from their : first marriage only see them on holidays.  That is not what being a : parent is all about. : : You can have all the bills of rights that you want, but don’t expect : your kids to come gift-wrapped to your door whenever you get the whim to : be a Disneyland Daddy.  The maintenance of any relationship – whether : family, friend, or romantic – takes active involvement and effort from : both sides.  You can’t just be a father when it is easy or convenient. : : And these dads wonder why their ex-wives get bitter and their kids are : resentful.  Sheesh. : : Amy : ***** :

: : Just a note… my name was used here… but I wasn’t condoning Mr. Jones’ : actions… Just wanted to set the record straight! : : Sandi : : : : : :                       FATHERS RIGHTS : : : : : : We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are : created : : : equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights: : : : : That’s a stretch of immagination. Example my mother and father. : : : : : :  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our : : :  children as the mothers; : : : : They do, until the divorce and then somebody loses! Somtimes it’s the : : father sometimes the mother. Example, ME! : : : : : :  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the : child’s : : :  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social : : :  activities; : : : : Consider staying married. It might happen then, it might not. Depends : : who wears the pants so to speak. : : : : : :  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s : : life, : : :  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities; : : : : Who’s stopping you. Just go! I do! : : : : : :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : : : paying        child support; : : : : How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t : : come to court with that already agreed to? : : : : : : : : : And in situations where child support is to be paid, : : : : : :  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors : into : : : consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or : : : theoretical  income; : : : : It would require judges to become fortune tellers or mind readers. Given : : the uniqueness of each circumstance, a percentage is the only fair way. : : : : : :  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished; : : : : Does that include the original family? (Notice I wrote FAMILY) : : : : : :  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the : money : : : is  spent; and : : : : Once again you should consider staying married. A divorce makes that : : nearly impossible. : : : : : :  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the : : : mother. : : : : It’s none of my business what my ex spends money on now. How could you : : suggest that he account to me? Would you? Get real! I know the answer to : : that. If the shoe were on the other foot you would take your ex for : : everything she has or ever will have. Please, tell me I’m wrong.  DS : : Jones : : — : : "How does it happen that the male child whose sense of life is so vivid : : that he imparts humanity to sun and stone changes into the adult male : : who cannot grant or even imagine the common humanity of women?" Andrea : : Dworkin : : : : : : : Yeah, well… where does your accountability come in to play here? : : :

Response:

:                       FATHERS RIGHTS : : We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created : equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights:

That’s a stretch of immagination. Example my mother and father. : :  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our :  children as the mothers;

They do, until the divorce and then somebody loses! Somtimes it’s the father sometimes the mother. Example, ME! : :  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s :  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social :  activities;

Consider staying married. It might happen then, it might not. Depends who wears the pants so to speak. : :  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s life, :  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities;

Who’s stopping you. Just go! I do! : :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : paying        child support;

How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t come to court with that already agreed to? : : : And in situations where child support is to be paid, : :  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into : consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or : theoretical  income;

It would require judges to become fortune tellers or mind readers. Given the uniqueness of each circumstance, a percentage is the only fair way. : :  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished;

Does that include the original family? (Notice I wrote FAMILY) : :  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money : is  spent; and

Once again you should consider staying married. A divorce makes that nearly impossible. : :  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the : mother.

It’s none of my business what my ex spends money on now. How could you suggest that he account to me? Would you? Get real! I know the answer to that. If the shoe were on the other foot you would take your ex for everything she has or ever will have. Please, tell me I’m wrong.  DS Jones — "How does it happen that the male child whose sense of life is so vivid that he imparts humanity to sun and stone changes into the adult male who cannot grant or even imagine the common humanity of women?" Andrea Dworkin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Yeah, well… where does your accountability come in to play here?

Response:

Sorry for the confusion…

: : Just a note… my name was used here… but I wasn’t condoning Mr. Jones’ : actions… Just wanted to set the record straight! : : Sandi : : While we’re setting the record straight, I’m Ms. Jones. Thank you very : much. : I don’t want anybody accusing me of pretending to be a man again. : DS Jones : : : : : :                       FATHERS RIGHTS : : : : : : We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are : created : : : equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights: : : : : That’s a stretch of immagination. Example my mother and father. : : : : : :  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our : : :  children as the mothers; : : : : They do, until the divorce and then somebody loses! Somtimes it’s the : : father sometimes the mother. Example, ME! : : : : : :  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the : child’s : : :  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social : : :  activities; : : : : Consider staying married. It might happen then, it might not. Depends : : who wears the pants so to speak. : : : : : :  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s : : life, : : :  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities; : : : : Who’s stopping you. Just go! I do! : : : : : :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : : : paying        child support; : : : : How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t : : come to court with that already agreed to? : : : : : : : : : And in situations where child support is to be paid, : : : : : :  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors : into : : : consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or : : : theoretical  income; : : : : It would require judges to become fortune tellers or mind readers. Given : : the uniqueness of each circumstance, a percentage is the only fair way. : : : : : :  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished; : : : : Does that include the original family? (Notice I wrote FAMILY) : : : : : :  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the : money : : : is  spent; and : : : : Once again you should consider staying married. A divorce makes that : : nearly impossible. : : : : : :  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the : : : mother. : : : : It’s none of my business what my ex spends money on now. How could you : : suggest that he account to me? Would you? Get real! I know the answer to : : that. If the shoe were on the other foot you would take your ex for : : everything she has or ever will have. Please, tell me I’m wrong.  DS : : Jones : : — : : "How does it happen that the male child whose sense of life is so vivid : : that he imparts humanity to sun and stone changes into the adult male : : who cannot grant or even imagine the common humanity of women?" Andrea : : Dworkin : : : : : : : Yeah, well… where does your accountability come in to play here? : : : : — : "How does it happen that the male child whose sense of life is so vivid : that he imparts humanity to sun and stone changes into the adult male : who cannot grant or even imagine the common humanity of women?" Andrea : Dworkin :

Response:

"Father’s Rights" You’re forgetting that there are many fathers who can’t be bothered to play such an active role in their children’s lives.  Many divorced parents that I’ve seen have fallen into this pigeon hole – Mom tries to include Dad, Dad is too angry/selfish/apathetic to be bothered with the day-to-day process of raising a child, Mom eventually gives up and figures that she’s done her part to involve Dad – now it’s up to him, Dad remains uninvolved, CHILDREN SUFFER.   Too many dads go out and get "new lives" and the children from their first marriage only see them on holidays.  That is not what being a parent is all about. You can have all the bills of rights that you want, but don’t expect your kids to come gift-wrapped to your door whenever you get the whim to be a Disneyland Daddy.  The maintenance of any relationship – whether family, friend, or romantic – takes active involvement and effort from both sides.  You can’t just be a father when it is easy or convenient. And these dads wonder why their ex-wives get bitter and their kids are resentful.  Sheesh. Amy ***** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a note… my name was used here… but I wasn’t condoning Mr. Jones’ actions… Just wanted to set the record straight! Sandi : : :                       FATHERS RIGHTS : : : : We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created : : equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights: : : That’s a stretch of immagination. Example my mother and father. : : : :  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our : :  children as the mothers; : : They do, until the divorce and then somebody loses! Somtimes it’s the : father sometimes the mother. Example, ME! : : : :  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s : :  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social : :  activities; : : Consider staying married. It might happen then, it might not. Depends : who wears the pants so to speak. : : : :  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s : life, : :  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities; : : Who’s stopping you. Just go! I do! : : : :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : : paying        child support; : : How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t : come to court with that already agreed to? : : : : : : And in situations where child support is to be paid, : : : :  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into : : consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or : : theoretical  income; : : It would require judges to become fortune tellers or mind readers. Given : the uniqueness of each circumstance, a percentage is the only fair way. : : : :  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished; : : Does that include the original family? (Notice I wrote FAMILY) : : : :  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money : : is  spent; and : : Once again you should consider staying married. A divorce makes that : nearly impossible. : : : :  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the : : mother. : : It’s none of my business what my ex spends money on now. How could you : suggest that he account to me? Would you? Get real! I know the answer to : that. If the shoe were on the other foot you would take your ex for : everything she has or ever will have. Please, tell me I’m wrong.  DS : Jones : — : "How does it happen that the male child whose sense of life is so vivid : that he imparts humanity to sun and stone changes into the adult male : who cannot grant or even imagine the common humanity of women?" Andrea : Dworkin : : : : Yeah, well… where does your accountability come in to play here? :

Response:

Just a note… my name was used here… but I wasn’t condoning Mr. Jones’ actions… Just wanted to set the record straight! Sandi

: : :                       FATHERS RIGHTS : : : : We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created : : equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights: : : That’s a stretch of immagination. Example my mother and father. : : : :  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our : :  children as the mothers; : : They do, until the divorce and then somebody loses! Somtimes it’s the : father sometimes the mother. Example, ME! : : : :  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s : :  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social : :  activities; : : Consider staying married. It might happen then, it might not. Depends : who wears the pants so to speak. : : : :  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s : life, : :  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities; : : Who’s stopping you. Just go! I do! : : : :  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to : : paying        child support; : : How can you seriously expect a judge to order joint custody if you can’t : come to court with that already agreed to? : : : : : : And in situations where child support is to be paid, : : : :  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into : : consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or : : theoretical  income; : : It would require judges to become fortune tellers or mind readers. Given : the uniqueness of each circumstance, a percentage is the only fair way. : : : :  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished; : : Does that include the original family? (Notice I wrote FAMILY) : : : :  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money : : is  spent; and : : Once again you should consider staying married. A divorce makes that : nearly impossible. : : : :  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the : : mother. : : It’s none of my business what my ex spends money on now. How could you : suggest that he account to me? Would you? Get real! I know the answer to : that. If the shoe were on the other foot you would take your ex for : everything she has or ever will have. Please, tell me I’m wrong.  DS : Jones : — : "How does it happen that the male child whose sense of life is so vivid : that he imparts humanity to sun and stone changes into the adult male : who cannot grant or even imagine the common humanity of women?" Andrea : Dworkin : : : : Yeah, well… where does your accountability come in to play here? :

Response:

                      FATHERS RIGHTS We hold these truths to be self-evident.  That ALL parents are created equal.  We declare that fathers have these inalienable rights:  To have the opportunity to spend just as much physical time with our  children as the mothers;  To have the right to equal decision making in every facet of the child’s  life, including religious training,  health,  schooling, and social  activities;  To have the right to participate in all major events in the child’s life,  including birthdays, holidays, schooling, and social activities;  To have the right to choose 50/50 joint custody as an alternative to paying  child support; And in situations where child support is to be paid,  To pay fair and reasonable amounts, taking ALL pertinent factors into consideration, and not solely based on a percentage of real or theoretical  income;  To not be forced into poverty or have second families impoverished;  To have equal input in decisions regarding the manner in which the money is  spent; and  To have every penny of the child support money accounted for by the mother.

Response:

Question:

just a general inquiry as to general work opportunities (i.e. not super-technical programming jobs etc.) in Vietnam…what they’re like, what pay is like, visa situation etc.  I know its a pretty general question, but Im sure there’s some people out there who have taught english or done something of the sort…

Just got back from 3 weeks in Hanoi.  I can’t really say much about any other jobs, but it is pretty easy to get jobs teaching English.  In fact, they are STARVED for native speakers of English, and teaching opportunities are plentiful.  The Vietnamese are really excited about learning English. I had two American friends who were teaching English in Hanoi, and they said they got started by just going to schools in the evening and hanging around until someone came up to them (to look for schools just look for huge concentrations of bikes and scooters).  They got hooked up with various schools, and they were also able to set up "private classes" on their own.  They were getting paid roughly $8 US an hour for their private classes.  There really are  many opportunities to teach.  We sat in on a bunch of classes and the Vietnamese people were really enthusiastic.   In Hanoi, you can also volunteer at the English language daily the Vietnam News.  Their "news" coverage is somewhat ridiculous, but the work is easy (basically, rewriting poorly translated English into something coherent and readabable) and if you work around 20 hours a week you get paid.  It’s a mellow place to hang out, and you can also check the AP wire and read stuff while you’re there (you have to be helping though; you can’t just bust in and start reading stuff). Visas ARE a problem, however.  YOu can get a couple extensions on your tourist visa (two, I think), but then after that you have to leave the country, get a new visa, and then come back.  My friends tried very hard to get business visas, and no one would sponsor them for fear of a future police problem.  It was a drag.    Overall, if you’re into it, I’d say Hanoi would be a nice stop for a working stiff.   Butch

Response:

just a general inquiry as to general work opportunities (i.e. not super-technical programming jobs etc.) in Vietnam…what they’re like,

When I wast in Hanoi this past March, it didn’t look like there were major opportunities, at least none that would pay too well. (Please note I was only there for a few days on holiday, so I’m not an expert). The areas that seemed to have the most activity were small shops selling arts/crafts to tourists, CD rip-off shops, video-houses, import/export people moving goods in/out of the country. I did see a couple of western accounting firms (Arthur Andersen) with little shops there. Your best bet would be to teach english there. I heard that a group of women was doing so in Haiphon (north on coast). Ho Chi Minh city in the south is much more commercialize/western (and crazy), whereas the north is still a bit behind, making it much more pleasant to stay in. Also check out the soc.culture.vietnamese area, which gets 300+new posts/day. Lots of Vietnamese folks there. Good luck — The Volunteer Center of San Francisco 1160 Battery St. #70     San Francisco, CA 94111  USA Vox 415/982-4663      Fax 415/399-9214

Response:

: just a general inquiry as to general work opportunities (i.e. not : super-technical programming jobs etc.) in Vietnam…what they’re like, : what pay is like, visa situation etc.  I know its a pretty general : question, but Im sure there’s some people out there who have taught : english or done something of the sort… There’s lots of internal competition for general work.  The pay scale isn’t anything like you’re used to.  Unless you can convince a multinational opening a rep office, the UN or an NGO organization that you are worth hiring, it may be rough. Then again, you never know…  Maybe others will be more optimistic. Chris Northcutt San Francisco, CA

Response:

just a general inquiry as to general work opportunities (i.e. not super-technical programming jobs etc.) in Vietnam…what they’re like, what pay is like, visa situation etc.  I know its a pretty general question, but Im sure there’s some people out there who have taught english or done something of the sort… plus Im presently unemployed and anything sounds pretty decent right now!

Response:

Question:

There is supposed to be a movie on CBS tonight called Flight #174 (I believe).  Is this based on a true incident, and, if so, does anyone know the true details of the incident? Thanks David Cooper

        Yes, the movie was based on a true story about an Air Canada 767 on a flight from Toronto-Ottawa-Calgary.  Mid-way through the Ottawa- Calgary leg of the flight the plane lost power.  Initially it was thought as a power failure, but they soon realized they had run out of fuel.  The captain had to basically glide the plane and land at an abandoned airfield.  The plane incurred minor damage and a few passengers were rattled.  An investigation was conducted soon after the incident and a report was issued.  The report concluded that the incident occured because the amount of fuel needed on the flight was miscalculated: they loaded less fuel than necessary. Why was the improper amount of fuel loaded?  The report said that in computing the fuel load, the pilot used both metric and imperial measuring systems. This was not the pilot’s fault per se, but it was company policy.  But it was the combination of these two different systems that caused the lack of fuel to be loaded on to the plane.  Oh yeah, there is another point.  The 767 also had faulty computers, especially ones that measured the fuel level.  It was later found out that that one of the chips in the computer was improperly installed, thus giving faulty readings.  I am writing this from memory, so forgive me if some of the details are wrong, but I thing I got to the gist of the matter.  I read about this incident in Reader’s Digest a few years back. — *Niraj Agarwalla                      * A CPA wanna-be.              *   *University of Massachusetts at Lowell* A lover of history.          * *Dept. of Accounting/Finance          * An observer of politics.     *

Response:

There is supposed to be a movie on CBS tonight called Flight #174 (I believe).  Is this based on a true incident, and, if so, does anyone know the true details of the incident? Thanks David Cooper

Response:

There is supposed to be a movie on CBS tonight called Flight #174 (I believe).  Is this based on a true incident, and, if so, does anyone know the true details of the incident?

I only saw the last half hour of the movie and that was definitely enough! Not only did they have about the worst possible special effects — the exterior shots of the aircraft incredibly fake looking — but most of the action seemed incredibly unrealistic.  Like during the crash landing, nobody assumed crash positions and parents were holding their kids up in their arms instead of keeping them strapped in their baby-seats.  Then during the ever so-slow evacuation of the smoke filled plane, they only existed out of one door and then let everyone just stand around the plane as it burned.  I could keep on listing things like this for a while…  And the acting was just as bad! In terms of being based on a true story — now remember I didn’t see the beginning — that it ocurred because of a mess-up in the calibrations of the tank during a switch over from the metric system to imperial or something like that. -Marc Wollemborg Marc Wollemborg:  11A1 Plimpton Hall, Columbia Univ., New York, NY 10027;

Response:

: There is supposed to be a movie on CBS tonight called : Flight #174 (I believe).  Is this based on a true : incident, and, if so, does anyone know the true details : of the incident? : Thanks : David Cooper I remember all this very well as I was living in Winnipeg at the time. All of the other posts have been correct, but the show had many flaws. For example, leaving Montreal for Edmonton is incorrect, banking the plane to the right and seeing Winnipeg on the right is not possible for that particular flight path (!) and the front landing gear did not collapse on landing but was almost torn off by the guard rail that was supposed to be in the middle of the landing strip, which at the time was being used as a drag strip. These are some of the inaccuracies that I noticed…  and there’s probably more.

Response:

: There is supposed to be a movie on CBS tonight called : Flight #174 (I believe).  Is this based on a true : incident, and, if so, does anyone know the true details : of the incident? : : Thanks : : David Cooper : :       Yes, the movie was based on a true story about an Air Canada 767 : on a flight from Toronto-Ottawa-Calgary.  Mid-way through the Ottawa- : Calgary leg of the flight the plane lost power.  Initially it was thought as a : power failure, but they soon realized they had run out of fuel.  The captain : had to basically glide the plane and land at an abandoned airfield.  The plane : incurred minor damage and a few passengers were rattled.  An investigation The disused airfield at Gimli had a drag racing competition taking place at the time the 767 glided in. Can you imagine what everyone thought just when they were packing up getting ready to leave, and they saw this rather large twin gliding silently towards them?? The planes nose-gear collapsed when it landed resulting in a lot of shaved metal in the nose area The "Gimli Glider" was patched up and is still flying. Scotty — NetNews and Gopher Admin.               Phone:  (519) 824-4120 x2556 Computing and Communications Svcs.      Fax:    (519) 763-6143 University of Guelph If it’s not Scottish its CRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP

Response:

: : There is supposed to be a movie on CBS tonight called : : Flight #174 (I believe).  Is this based on a true : : incident, and, if so, does anyone know the true details : : of the incident? I saw it last night, and I must say it was one of the most unrealistic movies ever. Heck, I think the movie "airplane" even did a better job . I liked the cockpit in the 767 though.  Real big, get up and walk around , too bad that isn’t what a cockpit really looks like. Regards, Steve

Response:

: I forgot to tune in to the TV movie, but as I recall from the book, there : was something about Air Canada switching from the English measurement system : to the metric system at the time — am I in left field, or did Canada have : to adopt the metric system a while back? Anyway, the book implied that the : flight crew had miscalculated the metric amount of fuel that would be needed : for the full distance, and the initial ground crew didn’t question their : request because they assumed the jet would be refueled at an intermediate : stop. It wasn’t, of course … It was a new delivery of 767’s and the fuel guage was broken so the fuel level was done manually. With the new planes, there was a mixup between imperial and metric measurements. — Darren Downs Faculty of Commerce and Business Administration University of British Columbia Vancouver, B.C. Canada

Response:

| | Even the UA 232 movie wasn’t completely realistic… I had the misfortune of | seeing that accident within 5 minutes after it happened in 1989, as I was | working for MCI right across Interstate 29 from the Sioux City airport.  It | (the rescue effort) seemed 10 times more frantic and intense than it appeared | in the movie. United Airlines Capt. Al Haynes made an incredible attempt | flying a DC 10 over 60 miles as the crow flies (not to mention the circles | he turned) with nothing more than thrust as a steering mechanism.  As I | watched the DC 10 float down out of the sky, it seemed like a normal approach | (other than the fact that he was landing on a closed runway (4-22).  I saw | it disappear behind a water tower and some large hangars and thought they | had it made till we heard the loud thump thump thump of the liner doing | cartwheels and saw the fireball and smoke. It’s the sickest feeling in the | world watching something like that…it’ll turn your blood cold…  The | movie was very hard to watch. | Out of curiousity, did you know that the plane was in trouble when you saw it coming in?  If not, did you *suspect* that there was something wrong?   Did you know that the runway that it was headed for was closed?   I can’t imagine seeing something like that – what you think is a normal landing and then hearing the crash.  I think that in addition to my blood turning cold, I’d probably toss my cookies on the spot.  I don’t think that I’d ever be the same.   Has anyone else out there in net.land ever seen a plane crash?  How did it affect you?  (My morbid curiousity stems from my immense fear of flying and my utter fascination with airplanes.) Michelle Bork Michelle Wright Bork                   – You cannot achieve the impossible Hughes Information Technology Corporation                       Reston,VA  a subsidiary of Hughes Aircraft Company

Response: