Question:

mark.gr…@reading.ac.uk (Mark Green) wrote in news:88139ee2.0402130739.4e887948@posting.google.com: > Just something that occured to me. > Let’s take a look at some of the properties that others have told me > about attractiveness: > –  Exactly what you have to do to suc…

This is as far as I got before I noticed the auther. I cannot read Mark Green’s posts anymore. I think he is nuts. Not in a really good way either. -phy

Response:

"Mark Green" <mark.gr…@reading.ac.uk> wrote in message

news:88139ee2.0402130739.4e887948@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just something that occured to me. > Let’s take a look at some of the properties that others have told me > about attractiveness: > –  Exactly what you have to do to succeed at it is different for > everyone. > –  Nobody can tell you exactly how to be good at it, but everybody can > recognize when somebody else *is* good at it, although their opinions > about particular specifics may differ. > –  It has a creative component.  Once a smooth guy uses a line, that > line’s no longer smooth.  You have to learn general principles. > –  You learn general principles from observing others. > Now think about it for a second.  These match up with a lot of other > things – like writing books, or in particular playing music.  Nobody > can tell you exactly which notes make good music, yet everyone can > tell from the notes they hear whether a piece is good or not, although > opinions between people may different.  It’s highly creative.  And you > learn general principles by observing others – hence the long > "influences.." list on almost every band sign-up poster. > But there’s a big difference. > People seem to have no trouble believing that there’s something called > "musical talent", without which you can’t produce good music no matter > what you do, and that if you don’t have you can’t get. > So, why the great resistance to the idea that something similar might > exist for attractiveness? > (And before you say "because many more people date/mate than write > music" – that only means that the talent is more common.)

Yeah, but there are lot of "musicians" who succeed but don’t have any talent at all, and there are many, many more who don’t succeed and are very talented. Ref: http://www.evacassidy.org/eva/harr96.htm S

Response:

treelike wrote: > Frank wrote >> I’m still trying to figure out exactly what charm/charisma is. Does >> it result from inner harmony perhaps? > I wonder if it’s one of those things which, if you try to persue, you > loose completely.

You mean like romance? – Michaela

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Frank wrote: > "Nutmegger" wrote: >>> "Mark Green" wrote::: >>>> So, why the great resistance to the idea that something similar >>>> might exist for attractiveness? >>> It’s called charm, charisma. >>> You either have it or you don’t. > I’m still trying to figure out exactly what charm/charisma is. Does it > result from inner harmony perhaps? Doesn’t a charismatic person lose > his/her charisma as soon as he/she becomes upset or distressed? > Frank

The ability to make someone think that both of you are wonderful ~ Ambrose Bierce A beauty is a woman you notice; a charmer is one who notices you. ~ Adlai Stevenson The few times I’ve ever been told I was charming I had simply shown interest in the other person and what they had to say. I had also noticed that I cared what they thought about me – but not excessively. So there’s that "find the middle path" thing again. That place that is neither here nor there. – Michaela

Response:

"Mark Green" wrote::: > So, why the great resistance to the idea that something similar might > exist for attractiveness?

It’s called charm, charisma. You either have it or you don’t.

Response:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:58:19 -0500, "Nutmegger" <nutmegger_7…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>"Mark Green" wrote::: >>> So, why the great resistance to the idea that something similar might >>> exist for attractiveness? >>It’s called charm, charisma. >>You either have it or you don’t.

I’m still trying to figure out exactly what charm/charisma is. Does it result from inner harmony perhaps? Doesn’t a charismatic person lose his/her charisma as soon as he/she becomes upset or distressed? Frank

Response:

mark.gr…@reading.ac.uk (Mark Green) wrote in message <news:88139ee2.0402130739.4e887948@posting.google.com>… > Just something that occured to me. > Let’s take a look at some of the properties that others have told me > about attractiveness: > –  Exactly what you have to do to succeed at it is different for > everyone.

But there are many ways to fail, on a broad consistent basis. Success consists of not failing, and of reaching the goal. Two different faculties but both necessary. > –  Nobody can tell you exactly how to be good at it, but everybody can > recognize when somebody else *is* good at it, although their opinions > about particular specifics may differ.

The real tricks are in recognizing the ones who think you’re good, and in being of a nature that they would. If you are, they’re likely to let you know on their own. > –  It has a creative component.  Once a smooth guy uses a line, that > line’s no longer smooth.  You have to learn general principles.

Not entirely true. The same truth may be said to a different lady and be as appropriate; it often seems we retrace our steps, and some things never go out of style. > –  You learn general principles from observing others. > Now think about it for a second.  These match up with a lot of other > things – like writing books, or in particular playing music.  Nobody > can tell you exactly which notes make good music, yet everyone can > tell from the notes they hear whether a piece is good or not, although > opinions between people may different.  It’s highly creative.  And you > learn general principles by observing others – hence the long > "influences.." list on almost every band sign-up poster.

If you apply your creative abilities to the purpose of romance, and are capable, you can make something special happen for her. That is the same as any other art. That’s why some chicks dig artists or have to be one themself. You may learn technique by observation and practice. But what you will create with it is another dimension entirely. > But there’s a big difference. > People seem to have no trouble believing that there’s something called > "musical talent", without which you can’t produce good music no matter > what you do, and that if you don’t have you can’t get.

This is a specious generalization. > So, why the great resistance to the idea that something similar might > exist for attractiveness?

Who resisted what? And why wasn’t it on the news? Umm… is this an infomercial? > (And before you say "because many more people date/mate than write > music" – that only means that the talent is more common.)

I would say "more people mate than write music, but there’s a shitload of chump rapper wannabees who don’t get laid". I know there’re dumb people who want to be loved for their personality and ugly people who want someone who thinks they’re hot. It seems like kind of a pointless argument because it’s the way of the world and attractiveness is nothing more than the sensory and interpretive sum of your affect on the observer. Now work it, work it.

Response:

"Frank" wrote::: > >>> So, why the great resistance to the idea that something similar might > >>> exist for attractiveness? > >>It’s called charm, charisma. > >>You either have it or you don’t. > I’m still trying to figure out exactly what charm/charisma is. Does it > result from inner harmony perhaps?

I think that has a great deal to do with it, but I also think personality does too.  Some people are just quiet, antisocial types. >Doesn’t a charismatic person lose > his/her charisma as soon as he/she becomes upset or distressed?

Sure, I would think so.

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Frank wrote in message <402d9eba.1845…@news.cis.dfn.de>… >I’m still trying to figure out exactly what charm/charisma is. Does it >result from inner harmony perhaps?

I wonder if it’s one of those things which, if you try to persue, you loose completely.

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"treelike" (treel…@lineone.net) writes: > Frank wrote in message <402d9eba.1845…@news.cis.dfn.de>… >>I’m still trying to figure out exactly what charm/charisma is. Does it >>result from inner harmony perhaps? > I wonder if it’s one of those things which, if you try to persue, you loose > completely.

I think it is pheromones for charisma. As for charm, I think it is the best those without charisma can try and act to look like they had the other one;-). —

Response:

In article <402d9eba.1845…@news.cis.dfn.de>, Frank <Frank…@nospam.net> wrote: >I’m still trying to figure out exactly what charm/charisma is. Does it >result from inner harmony perhaps? Doesn’t a charismatic person lose >his/her charisma as soon as he/she becomes upset or distressed?

Charisma is Greek for gift.  That might be a clue. Annette (charm, I think, may more likely be cultivated) (or in the eye of the beholder)

Response:

Mark Green wrote: > –  It has a creative component. Once a smooth guy uses a line, that line’s no longer smooth. You have to learn general principles.

How can people possibly know what has been tried before? How would anyone uptown know or care what you did downtown unless someone were shadowing you? Do you have a guilty conscience? I know I dread saying lines that sound like I read them from a clich

Question:

Quackshrink pondered a bit and then came up with… With all due respect, if you want ANYONE in here to care *at all* about what you’re trying to say, I would suggest you do it with a little more CIVILITY. I have been civil, Suzanne.  YOU are the one that has used disgusting language…I suppose I should counsel you to clean up your act, eh?

Oh, puleeze.  Give me a break.  You’re the one slinging mud in a public forum. True to troll form, when you get criticized, you can’t act like an adult, you have to start resorting to veiled insults. — Suzanne Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. –Groucho Marx (1890 – 1977)

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Quackshrink said for all posterity… I’m done with you anyway.   Coward.

Troll. Casey "The first rule of holes: if you are in one, stop digging."

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Could you guys take it outside, and grow up, like all the rest of us in here? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Quackshrink said for all posterity… I’m done with you anyway. Coward. Troll. Casey "The first rule of holes: if you are in one, stop digging."

Response:

Suzanne asked: If I started off my post to you, as: I just wanted to let you know that you’re a shithead… would you continue reading it?

I never used the foul language you seem to favor, Suzanne, and your critique goes on to  invalidate itself through its own illogic.  Do you, too, believe children should be exposed to sexual images?  That children should smoke methamphetamine?  You are avoiding the crux of the issue.

Response:

With all due respect, if you want ANYONE in here to care *at all* about what you’re trying to say, I would suggest you do it with a little more CIVILITY.

I have been civil, Suzanne.  YOU are the one that has used disgusting language…I suppose I should counsel you to clean up your act, eh?

Response:

Casey, in his limited wisdom concluded: Unless those are made-up names, you’re the only anonymous one.

All of the names are anonymous except for the principals that have conspired to destroy a family. And I’m not going to bother to answer your baited question about caring for children

It’s a simple question, but if you don’t want to publicly declare that you are sympathetic to the plight of children, then that is your perogative.

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I’m done with you anyway.  

Yeah, I guess you ARE, Casey.  Coward.  Here’s hoping you don’t have any kids.

Response:

Sorry Quackmaster…I’m not convinced you are so "sympathetic to the plight of children"…your original post seemed to attack Mr. White and the judge and stated very little of the kids…rather…you seem more sympathetic for your sister.  You also seem to be filled with anger and hatred to Mr. White. I’m not so sure the children’s "plight" is at all benefited by you having a public disdain for the children’s father.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a simple question, but if you don’t want to publicly declare that you are sympathetic to the plight of children, then that is your perogative.

Response:

Quackshrink pondered a bit and then came up with… I’m done with you anyway.   Yeah, I guess you ARE, Casey.  Coward.  Here’s hoping you don’t have any kids.

You know, you may not have used foul language in here, but you’re as distasteful as they come. — Suzanne Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. –Groucho Marx (1890 – 1977)

Response:

Quackshrink pondered a bit and then came up with… Suzanne asked: If I started off my post to you, as: I just wanted to let you know that you’re a shithead… would you continue reading it? I never used the foul language you seem to favor, Suzanne, and your critique goes on to  invalidate itself through its own illogic.  Do you, too, believe children should be exposed to sexual images?  That children should smoke methamphetamine?  You are avoiding the crux of the issue.

Well, call me crude, but at least I know that you can attract more flies to honey than vinegar.   — Suzanne Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. –Groucho Marx (1890 – 1977)

Response:

Casey said for all posterity… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Quackshrink said for all posterity… I notice you bravely post other people’s full names but you call yourself Quackshrink.   Casey: I assume anonymity because CHILDREN are involved in this case.  Do you CARE about CHILDREN?  I do…and I call myself "Quackshrink" because I have dedicated that screenname to the travesty my sister and her children have just been put through. Then why did you post this? "I am the brother of Tami White and the uncle of her children Ken and Barbie…the family you recently and officially destroyed in your Division D courtroom." Unless those are made-up names, you’re the only anonymous one.

I see they are.  Nevermind. I’m done with you anyway.   Casey "The first rule of holes: if you are in one, stop digging."

Response:

Quackshrink pondered a bit and then came up with… I notice you bravely post other people’s full names but you call yourself Quackshrink.   Casey: I assume anonymity because CHILDREN are involved in this case.  Do you CARE about CHILDREN?  I do…and I call myself "Quackshrink" because I have dedicated that screenname to the travesty my sister and her children have just been put through. I will happily tell you my real name via private email (if you must know).  And stop jabbering about your newsreader.  I am not interested.

With all due respect, if you want ANYONE in here to care *at all* about what you’re trying to say, I would suggest you do it with a little more CIVILITY. http://ourworld.cs.com/quackshrink/myhomepage/favorite.html

– Suzanne Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. –Groucho Marx (1890 – 1977)

Response:

Quackshrink said for all posterity… I notice you bravely post other people’s full names but you call yourself Quackshrink.   Casey: I assume anonymity because CHILDREN are involved in this case.  Do you CARE about CHILDREN?  I do…and I call myself "Quackshrink" because I have dedicated that screenname to the travesty my sister and her children have just been put through.

Then why did you post this? "I am the brother of Tami White and the uncle of her children Ken and Barbie…the family you recently and officially destroyed in your Division D courtroom." Unless those are made-up names, you’re the only anonymous one. And I’m not going to bother to answer your baited question about caring for children. Casey "The first rule of holes: if you are in one, stop digging."

Response:

Apparently you can read posts but you can’t reply to the correct one.

If I didn’t attribute…then how do you know I am replying to you, specifically?  You aren’t with the Bandwidth Police, are you?  Am I under arrest? I personally just wondered why the judge would care that you had visited Pearl Harbor and Gettysburg…. if he managed to read that far.

I don’t believe he cared about my vacation,  either, considering he obviously doesn’t care about the welfare children.  If you really want to know what this scumbag Richard Hughes is thinking I suppoose you’ll have to write to him directly (the address is on my original post).

Response:

Quackshrink pondered a bit and then came up with… Not exactly the way to win friends and influence people. It’ll probably convince the magistrate that he made the right decision.  The guy’s handle says it all.  [Rog'] I’m sure the "magistrate" believes he made the right decision.  These people are PERFECT in their judgments…which is a good thing, because apparently there is NO CONTROLLING AUTHORITY to call them to account if they are wrong. What exactly do you mean when you say my handle "says it all," Rog?  If you disagree with me you must think that children SHOULD be exposed to narcotics and pornography.  Tell us, Rog…please elaborate…do you believe children as young as six should witness acts of fellatio?  Do you think ten-year-olds should use cocaine?  Do you see any age-limit to depravity?

If I started off my post to you, as: I just wanted to let you know that you’re a shithead… would you continue reading it?  Would you care what that person had to say after that? If you don’t want your letter critiqued/analyzed, don’t post it for all of usenet to see. — Suzanne Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. –Groucho Marx (1890 – 1977)

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Quackshrink said for all posterity… Apparently you can read posts but you can’t reply to the correct one. If I didn’t attribute…then how do you know I am replying to you, specifically?  

Uh, let’s see.  Your post *was* a direct reply to mine.  My newsreader showed it as such.  Check the header and the "References:" field. If you really want to know what this scumbag Richard Hughes is thinking I suppoose you’ll have to write to him directly (the address is on my original post).

I notice you bravely post other people’s full names but you call yourself Quackshrink.   Casey "The first rule of holes: if you are in one, stop digging."

Response:

I notice you bravely post other people’s full names but you call yourself Quackshrink.  

Casey: I assume anonymity because CHILDREN are involved in this case.  Do you CARE about CHILDREN?  I do…and I call myself "Quackshrink" because I have dedicated that screenname to the travesty my sister and her children have just been put through. I will happily tell you my real name via private email (if you must know).  And stop jabbering about your newsreader.  I am not interested. http://ourworld.cs.com/quackshrink/myhomepage/favorite.html

Response:

Quackshrink said for all posterity… what does some field in Pennsylvania where an airliner crashed 1.5 years ago have to do with your sister’s case? Apparently you can read but your comprehension is lacking.  

Apparently you can read posts but you can’t reply to the correct one. The text you quoted above is from Igor’s post, but you replied to mine. It would help if you would leave the attributes in. Or maybe you just think the law should allow men to abuse children.

No, I personally just wondered why the judge would care that you had visited Pearl Harbor and Gettysburg…. if he managed to read that far. Casey "The first rule of holes: if you are in one, stop digging."

Response:

Igor16124 said for all posterity… what does some field in Pennsylvania where an airliner crashed 1.5 years ago have to do with your sister’s case?

Trips to Pearl Harbor and Gettysburg don’t have much to do with it, either. Casey "The first rule of holes: if you are in one, stop digging."

Response:

Not exactly the way to win friends and influence people. It’ll probably convince the magistrate that he made the right decision.  The guy’s handle says it all.  [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zimm pondered a bit and then came up with… Gee, I would have stopped reading after the first sentence. As a matter of fact, I did.   It’s generally better to insult the person at the end, not at the beginning. lol… I never looked at it that way, but you’re right.  I didn’t make it  past the third paragraph.

Response:

what does some field in Pennsylvania where an airliner crashed 1.5 years ago have to do with your sister’s case?

Apparently you can read but your comprehension is lacking.  Or maybe you just think the law should allow men to abuse children.

Response:

Not exactly the way to win friends and influence people. It’ll probably convince the magistrate that he made the right decision.  The guy’s handle says it all.  [Rog']

I’m sure the "magistrate" believes he made the right decision.  These people are PERFECT in their judgments…which is a good thing, because apparently there is NO CONTROLLING AUTHORITY to call them to account if they are wrong. What exactly do you mean when you say my handle "says it all," Rog?  If you disagree with me you must think that children SHOULD be exposed to narcotics and pornography.  Tell us, Rog…please elaborate…do you believe children as young as six should witness acts of fellatio?  Do you think ten-year-olds should use cocaine?  Do you see any age-limit to depravity?

Response:

Zimm pondered a bit and then came up with… Gee, I would have stopped reading after the first sentence.  As a matter of fact, I did.   It’s generally better to insult the person at the end, not at the beginning.

lol… I never looked at it that way, but you’re right.  I didn’t make it past the third paragraph. If you want to get your point across, you need to be able to make it and make it in a timely manner, or you’ll never make it past the secretary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zimm Commissioner Richard Hughes Los Angeles Superior Court Division D 400 Civic Center Plaza Pomona, CA  91766 Commissioner Hughes: You are a disgrace to the Judiciary.  You should be removed from the bench before more children in Los Angeles County are endangered by your ineptitude. I am the brother of Tami White and the uncle of her children Ken and Barbie…the family you recently and officially destroyed in your Division D courtroom.  During the custody trial in the White case you were presented with inarguable evidence that showed drugs were used by children while in the parental care of a pornographer, and that even more drugs in the possession of this "father" were discovered by these children.  You were presented with factual evidence that proved my sister

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shane, I am in nowhere near a situation like yours, but my wife has told me that from her perspective our marriage is over and we have a three year old daughter together. I am struggling with the same stay-or-go for the sake of the child, without the chemo element, of course. I can only pass along a suggestion my therapist has passed along to me. I don’t have my answer yet, but I find the process of answering the question an enlightening one. She said,"throughout the process of dealing with your situation, stay true to yourself. Don’t make your decision based on what you think is best for others if it is not good for you. If what is good for you and the others is the same thing, then there is no conflict. If it is not the same thing and you compromise yourself, you won’t be in a position to be what you need to be for yourself as well as the others – you won’t be able to fully give them what they want, anyway." Good luck with your decision, Shane.

You got a little lady on the side too Grant? Jus’ wunerin’. Roto ~:

Response:

I kinda thought it was so similar to Joan’s posts that it made me think that she was assuming another ‘role’ in her story like she did at the beginning.  If this is not true, my apologies Joan, but the stories are soooo very similar. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shane, put your personal life on hold. Support your children, support your wife..if not as a lover, as a friend. You had this child together, right or wrong, thick or thin. No one but the two of you can really understand the fear and grief of being this child’s parent. You have a special bond, through your son, so I hope you can both pull out the white flag. Respect each other, as you both deserve. Humble yourselves, and support each other with the decency and kindness that comes with character and conscience. You say you have two kids. The other child seems to be a forgotten victim. What lesson will you teach them when the going gets tough? How hurt and vulnerable will they feel if you leave? I don’t believe in pain transference, that is, transferring your pain to someone else (son, wife) so that you don’t have to suffer as much. There is a right way, and a wrong way, to end a marriage. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle any situation. I fully believe that the right answer is always evident within a minute or two of contemplation. What happens is that we tend to make our lives incredibly stressful and complicated trying to justify wrong actions for pain avoidance/transference. Your character is your destiny. I hope yours will be one you can be proud of. Best Wishes, I think many of you just don’t get it. He did not post on this group because he is torn, he posted because he is looking to excuse a choice he has already made. He just twisted the truth to get your sympathy. He is a dog looking for a bone. I feel terrible for that poor boy, and the mother. But they will pull through this, as soon as they get rid of the lying cheat. Him sticking around dreaming about his coochie, is not helping anyone. He is not father to this kid, what kind of father would even consider bolting at a time like this? Think about it. I smell snake. I know some of you think I am being way harsh, but you gotta look at what he said. If evrything he said was twisted and sick, imagine what he is not telling us? I gaurantee that poor wife has been doing everything she can to hold on to him, while he knows all along that he is going to leave. It makes me want to drink when I read this stuff. I mean it is one thing if a marraige falls apart for whatever reason and a family gets shattered but the total lack of regard for another human is…loss for words…just pplain wrong. Roto ~:

Response:

 < but I think your counselor’s statement is full of crap I found that remark odd too. I am wit’ you on this one KL. Roto ~:

Response:

I can only pass along a suggestion my therapist has passed along to me. She said…"Don’t make your decision based on what you think is best for others if it is not good for you. If what is good for you and the others is the same thing, then there is no conflict. If it is not the same thing and you compromise yourself, you won’t be in a position to be what you need to be for yourself as well as the others – you won’t be able to fully give them what they want…" JMHO, but I think your counselor’s statement is full of crap…

Agreed.  "No man is an island."  Accounting for the lives of others who you (theoretically) hold dear is a matter of conscience.  IMHO, a counselor should help a patient examine the alternatives and the effects of any proposed conduct.  To me, the question should be: Are you a sentient being who considers consequences? A person does have to live with themselves… and for many of us, that does include thinking about how we affect the lives of others. –Roger–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shane, put your personal life on hold. Support your children, support your wife..if not as a lover, as a friend. You had this child together, right or wrong, thick or thin. No one but the two of you can really understand the fear and grief of being this child’s parent. You have a special bond, through your son, so I hope you can both pull out the white flag. Respect each other, as you both deserve. Humble yourselves, and support each other with the decency and kindness that comes with character and conscience. You say you have two kids. The other child seems to be a forgotten victim. What lesson will you teach them when the going gets tough? How hurt and vulnerable will they feel if you leave? I don’t believe in pain transference, that is, transferring your pain to someone else (son, wife) so that you don’t have to suffer as much. There is a right way, and a wrong way, to end a marriage. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle any situation. I fully believe that the right answer is always evident within a minute or two of contemplation. What happens is that we tend to make our lives incredibly stressful and complicated trying to justify wrong actions for pain avoidance/transference. Your character is your destiny. I hope yours will be one you can be proud of. Best Wishes,

I think many of you just don’t get it. He did not post on this group because he is torn, he posted because he is looking to excuse a choice he has already made. He just twisted the truth to get your sympathy. He is a dog looking for a bone. I feel terrible for that poor boy, and the mother. But they will pull through this, as soon as they get rid of the lying cheat. Him sticking around dreaming about his coochie, is not helping anyone. He is not father to this kid, what kind of father would even consider bolting at a time like this? Think about it. I smell snake. I know some of you think I am being way harsh, but you gotta look at what he said. If evrything he said was twisted and sick, imagine what he is not telling us? I gaurantee that poor wife has been doing everything she can to hold on to him, while he knows all along that he is going to leave. It makes me want to drink when I read this stuff. I mean it is one thing if a marraige falls apart for whatever reason and a family gets shattered but the total lack of regard for another human is…loss for words…just pplain wrong. Roto ~:

Response:

I guess it depends on who you ask.  Timing is everything.

agreed

Response:

Well, what *I* wonder is why you equate someone staying with their family in a time of serious illness as ‘living with lies and betrayal that everything is ok’? I don’t see why a person *can’t* remain with their family in a time like this and not have lies and betrayal be a part of it?

Never said they shouldn’t remain there at this time.   All I’ve said is "for the short term".   If the treatments are going to be for a long period of time, one might want to reconsider acting like mommy and daddy are happily married.   There is enough stress in the house with the illness of the child.

Response:

Shane, I am in nowhere near a situation like yours, but my wife has told me that from her perspective our marriage is over and we have a three year old daughter together. I am struggling with the same stay-or-go for the sake of the child, without the chemo element, of course. I can only pass along a suggestion my therapist has passed along to me. I don’t have my answer yet, but I find the process of answering the question an enlightening one. She said,"throughout the process of dealing with your situation, stay true to yourself. Don’t make your decision based on what you think is best for others if it is not good for you. If what is good for you and the others is the same thing, then there is no conflict. If it is not the same thing and you compromise yourself, you won’t be in a position to be what you need to be for yourself as well as the others – you won’t be able to fully give them what they want, anyway." Good luck with your decision, Shane.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope I can ask a question without getting flamed.  I am so confused I just don’t know if I’m thinking clearly anymore. Been married 18 years, two kids.   Marriage has had problems for 7 years, no intimacy, no sex, no communication, just co-existence.   I don’t know when it started, just one day it was there and wouldn’t go away.     There was a third party involved for a while but we both decided to try to fix things, went to counseling, etc…. When it’s all said and done, neither of us is willing to try hard enough.  We know it’s over.   I also know I love the person I was involved with very much and want to share my life with them.   She says she loves me too but won’t be with me until I am legally separated.  I made the decision it was time to go when all hell broke loose. My 16 year old son just had cancer surgery.   They found it very unexpectedly after he fell off a bike.   The surgery went ok but the doctors feel there is still the possibility of microscopic cancer and want him to do chemo and radiation over the coming months. Before all this happened, I signed a lease on a place, moved in furniture and stuff.  Now I’m torn about what to do. I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love. I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shane, I am in nowhere near a situation like yours, but my wife has told me that from her perspective our marriage is over and we have a three year old daughter together. I am struggling with the same stay-or-go for the sake of the child, without the chemo element, of course. I can only pass along a suggestion my therapist has passed along to me. I don’t have my answer yet, but I find the process of answering the question an enlightening one. She said,"throughout the process of dealing with your situation, stay true to yourself. Don’t make your decision based on what you think is best for others if it is not good for you. If what is good for you and the others is the same thing, then there is no conflict. If it is not the same thing and you compromise yourself, you won’t be in a position to be what you need to be for yourself as well as the others – you won’t be able to fully give them what they want, anyway." Good luck with your decision, Shane.

JMHO, but I think your counselor’s statement is full of crap (a little indelicately stated, but gimme a break–it’s late!). At least, when it comes to decisions that affect people we supposedly love, like partners, close friends, and above all children, toward whom we have bear heightened responsibility to make sure their needs are met before our own. There are just too many situations that arise where there’s a "conflict of interests," and a healthy relationship must necessarily involve a balanced amount of compromise and negotiation. I don’t think the occasional sacrifice of our own wants for those of our loved ones is a "compromise of self" at all. Of course, one must note the words "balance" and "compromise" in the above statement. If you find yourself always giving up what you want for the sake of others, and never in the position of getting what you want over their better interests, that’s not healthy either. If you have historically found yourself in that position, then your therapist’s remarks may make a certain sense *in that context*–perhaps overstated to get you to realize that you do have a right to have at least *some* of your interests met, *some* of the time. And in a lot of decisions, it doesn’t have to be an "all or nothing" deal–there is some middle ground whereby at least some of your needs/important wants get met while at the same time you can meet the needs/wants of the other person. The tricky part is finding that middle ground–the process of negotiation cannot take place if you don’t trust the other person enough to feel like they will also be willing to give up something to meet your needs/wants. Which is surely the case in the original poster’s case. To me it’s actually pretty unfathomable that there’s any question about placing his "want" for this other woman *right now* above his child’s need for undivided attention and support at this juncture. Leaving aside for a moment the whole question of whether it’s "ok" to ditch the marriage under the best of circumstances, what’s the harm in putting that off for a little while? If the relationship with the OW is so fragile that it can’t survive being put on hold for a year or two, is it really worth pursuing in the first place? But if it was "meant to be," there will always be a "later," whereas there may *not* be a "later" for his kid! I think it was Warren Zevon who wrote a song called "I’ll Sleep When I’m Dead." He can take care of his wants for this relationship after he’s taken care of his child’s needs for support at this time in his life. (cue segue music for Janie to lead a discussion on "wants" vs. "needs"

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You already know that this "struggle" will not end after surgery or at the end of chemo/radiation.  It will go on, month after month, year after year.  Even when she’s physically healthy again (which i hope will be the outcome), there will always be the possibility of the cancer coming back.  Year after year, it will be there, like a big cloud that keeps one living a day at a time, appreciating a moment at a time.  This can greatly affect the whole family, as well.  

No question….for several relatives and friends, they didn’t breathe easy till that 5 year mark was made and even now it still looms. <<Also, this kind of sugery can cause other health problems for which she’ll need her family’s support and togetherness, if possible.

Having the family’s support is not an issue. That will be there no matter what happens or where anyone is.   The hardest emotional part to deal with of serious illness or hurt is that life does go on, it doesn’t stop just because you are sick. Nobody can change anything for you, they do the best they can, but they still can’t make it go away. I guess what I wonder is what is worse, living with lies and betrayal that everything is ok, or having everything out in the open and dealing with it?  

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All he knows is that he has CANCER.  That’s all you should be caring about right now,too. You and your wife need to drop this crap between you and pull together for this child.

I think this is what has to happen in the short term too till you have more info.   If the other person loves you, they aren’t going to bolt for the short term.  

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I guess what I wonder is what is worse, living with lies and betrayal that everything is ok, or having everything out in the open and dealing with it?

I guess it depends on who you ask.  Timing is everything.

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Having the family’s support is not an issue.

Maybe not from your POV, Joan, but, as in all things, our PsOV are not usually the only ones that matter. That will be there no matter what happens or where anyone is.  

That’s your opinion and your outlook, Joan. I’m not dis- counting that as being invalid. But that might not be everyone’s opinion and outlook and theirs are just as valid as yours. The hardest emotional part to deal with of serious illness or hurt is that life does go on, it doesn’t stop just because you are sick.

I’ve never been seriously ill, so I can’t speak defini- tively on that. But I’m not so sure that I accept that as an ultimate truth for everyone. There has to be *some* people that don’t find that difficult to deal with. Nobody can change anything for you, they do the best they can, but they still can’t make it go away.

That’s true. I guess what I wonder is what is worse, living with lies and betrayal that everything is ok, or having everything out in the open and dealing with it?

Well, what *I* wonder is why you equate someone staying with their family in a time of serious illness as ‘living with lies and betrayal that everything is ok’? I don’t see why a person *can’t* remain with their family in a time like this and not have lies and betrayal be a part of it? Tracey

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Shane, put your personal life on hold. Support your children, support your wife..if not as a lover, as a friend. You had this child together, right or wrong, thick or thin. No one but the two of you can really understand the fear and grief of being this child’s parent. You have a special bond, through your son, so I hope you can both pull out the white flag. Respect each other, as you both deserve. Humble yourselves, and support each other with the decency and kindness that comes with character and conscience. You say you have two kids. The other child seems to be a forgotten victim. What lesson will you teach them when the going gets tough? How hurt and vulnerable will they feel if you leave? I don’t believe in pain transference, that is, transferring your pain to someone else (son, wife) so that you don’t have to suffer as much. There is a right way, and a wrong way, to end a marriage. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle any situation. I fully believe that the right answer is always evident within a minute or two of contemplation. What happens is that we tend to make our lives incredibly stressful and complicated trying to justify wrong actions for pain avoidance/transference. Your character is your destiny. I hope yours will be one you can be proud of. Best Wishes, Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope I can ask a question without getting flamed.  I am so confused I just don’t know if I’m thinking clearly anymore. Been married 18 years, two kids.   Marriage has had problems for 7 years, no intimacy, no sex, no communication, just co-existence.   I don’t know when it started, just one day it was there and wouldn’t go away.     There was a third party involved for a while but we both decided to try to fix things, went to counseling, etc…. When it’s all said and done, neither of us is willing to try hard enough.  We know it’s over.   I also know I love the person I was involved with very much and want to share my life with them.   She says she loves me too but won’t be with me until I am legally separated.  I made the decision it was time to go when all hell broke loose. My 16 year old son just had cancer surgery.   They found it very unexpectedly after he fell off a bike.   The surgery went ok but the doctors feel there is still the possibility of microscopic cancer and want him to do chemo and radiation over the coming months. Before all this happened, I signed a lease on a place, moved in furniture and stuff.  Now I’m torn about what to do. I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love. I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

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I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love.

Shane, I could be the woman you met and want to be with and am facing some of those same challenges.   The guy I want to be with had come to the same place you are, knowing the marriage was over and ready to leave, when his daughter was diagnosed with uterine cancer.   She had surgery this past week and although they got everything they could see, they also want to do radiation and chemo for anything they can’t see. This is a gut wrenching and heartbreaking experience for everyone involved.   I’ve been through cancer with a number of relatives and friends and am very concerned about the outcome of all this.   Maybe she will survive and live a long life, maybe in a few months they will find it somewhere else.  There is just no way to know for sure and no doctor or support group will give you that. I am very torn myself from the other side of things.  I hate the idea of him staying in that marriage and playing a game, of not being able to be there for him, or his daughter.   But what do I do?  I can’t ask him to leave his daughter while she is in a struggle for her life.   This could be over in a few months, or it could go on for a few years. If it goes on for years, is it still best for him to stay there? Will he be able to live with himself if he leaves and the worst thing does happen and he wasn’t there?    There isn’t any easy answer because there won’t be any clear outcomes. Death and loss has taught me that we don’t know how long any of us has.  It could be tomorrow, it could be years from now, but all we really have is NOW.   The past is gone, the future is unknown, now is all there is. So what do we do?  Do we find a way to find some happiness in the midst of the chaos and trauma, or do we put it all aside and hope that this will all be over sooner than later and then get on with our own happiness? I don’t have the answer.   I’ve struggled with this for weeks now.  Part of me feels I need to back out of this relationship and let him be with his daughter.   Another part of me feels like I need to be supportive and be there for him throughout it.  Still another part of me feels like he doesn’t have to remain married to her mother and live in that house to be there and support her through this. Someone else said that you need to do what is best for you and what you can live with.   I just wish I knew how to get to a decision that one can feel really certain about in a very uncertain time ahead and not have regrets about later.    If you figure that out, please share it with me.

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I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

I have to agree with Roto’s response, Shane, but I’m looking at your situation from the standpoint of a guy who took that "…chance at happiness."  My chance for happiness turned into a nightmare.  You don’t build a marriage on a dung heap of lying and cheating.  My "chance" left me for what I’m sure she thought of as a "chance at happiness"–with another woman’s husband. I also agree with Roto that you probably didn’t try at all to work on your marriage.  If you want what’s best for your kids, that’s a two parent family and lots of love all around.  My advice to you is to look around and see what your chances of happiness truly are with this other woman.  And I think you should exaust every possibility of repairing your marriage before you end it. robre

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This is a gut wrenching and heartbreaking experience for everyone involved.   I’ve been through cancer with a number of relatives and friends and am very concerned about the outcome of all this.   Maybe she will survive and live a long life, maybe in a few months they will find it somewhere else.  There is just no way to know for sure and no doctor or support group will give you that. I am very torn myself from the other side of things.  I hate the idea of him staying in that marriage and playing a game, of not being able to be there for him, or his daughter.   But what do I do?  I can’t ask him to leave his daughter while she is in a struggle for her life.  

You already know that this "struggle" will not end after surgery or at the end of chemo/radiation.  It will go on, month after month, year after year.  Even when she’s physically healthy again (which i hope will be the outcome), there will always be the possibility of the cancer coming back.  Year after year, it will be there, like a big cloud that keeps one living a day at a time, appreciating a moment at a time.  This can greatly affect the whole family, as well.  Also, this kind of sugery can cause other health problems for which she’ll need her family’s support and togetherness, if possible.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope I can ask a question without getting flamed.  I am so confused I just don’t know if I’m thinking clearly anymore. Been married 18 years, two kids.   Marriage has had problems for 7 years, no intimacy, no sex, no communication, just co-existence.   I don’t know when it started, just one day it was there and wouldn’t go away.     There was a third party involved for a while but we both decided to try to fix things, went to counseling, etc…. When it’s all said and done, neither of us is willing to try hard enough.  We know it’s over.   I also know I love the person I was involved with very much and want to share my life with them.   She says she loves me too but won’t be with me until I am legally separated.  I made the decision it was time to go when all hell broke loose. My 16 year old son just had cancer surgery.   They found it very unexpectedly after he fell off a bike.   The surgery went ok but the doctors feel there is still the possibility of microscopic cancer and want him to do chemo and radiation over the coming months. Before all this happened, I signed a lease on a place, moved in furniture and stuff.  Now I’m torn about what to do. I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love. I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

I think you would be the lowest of scum to leave at a time like this.  *Your* happiness???  We adults all had our chance to choose our partners, get married, make kids, etc, etc.  So we screwed it up, we aren’t *happy* anymore.  SO WHAT????  So, we do whatever the hell it is that will make us happy (so we think) and just drag the kids involved along for our ride.  I think you need to put your warm fuzzies on hold and see your child through this.  He’s just a kid not even starting his adult life yet.  He doesn’t give a damn if you are sexually gratified or are feeling all warm and cozy with someone.  All he knows is that he has CANCER.  That’s all you should be caring about right now,too. You and your wife need to drop this crap between you and pull together for this child.  Can you manage that or is it too much to ask from both of his *parents*?

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"I think you would be the lowest of scum to leave at a time like this.  *Your* happiness???  We adults all had our chance to choose our partners, get married, make kids, etc, etc.  So we screwed it up, we aren’t *happy* anymore.  SO WHAT????  So, we do whatever the hell it is that will make us happy (so we think) and just drag the kids involved along for our ride.  I think you need to put your warm fuzzies on hold and see your child through this.  He’s just a kid not even starting his adult life yet.  He doesn’t give a damn if you are sexually gratified or are feeling all warm and cozy with someone.  All he knows is that he has CANCER.  That’s all you should be caring about right now,too. You and your wife need to drop this crap between you and pull together for this child.  Can you manage that or is it too much to ask from both of his *parents*?" I remember seeing a report about diseases and stress. It stalked how  less stressed people do better in most cases. The difference was not that much, but there was a difference. Questions: Will the child want much to do with you, if you leave during this crisis? Will relatives/etc blame you in part if the treatment does not work and the child dies? Are you and your spouse fighting in front of the child causing more stress? The child being young surely works in his favor. From what I hear, if the cancer does not come back in five years, they usually call you cured…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shane, Do what is right for YOU. Stay in the apartment you have… And support your son. You know what you really want to do…so do it! I’m sorry to hear about your son, for the next year he will be feeling very low in spirits…but he may also respond positively…if it’s the kind of preventative chemotherapy I know about, it is more positive, because i know that the younger the person is when they are on chemotherapy the faster they heal and the stronger they recover… If you stay in the home…you will not have the energy to help your son as you would if you are feeling better about yourself living elsewhere. Temily

Doing the *right* thing doesn’t include dumping your family in need to get what you want.  Very self centered thinking.

Response:

Shane, Do what is right for YOU. Stay in the apartment you have… And support your son. You know what you really want to do…so do it! I’m sorry to hear about your son, for the next year he will be feeling very low in spirits…but he may also respond positively…if it’s the kind of preventative chemotherapy I know about, it is more positive, because i know that the younger the person is when they are on chemotherapy the faster they heal and the stronger they recover… If you stay in the home…you will not have the energy to help your son as you would if you are feeling better about yourself living elsewhere. Temily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope I can ask a question without getting flamed.  I am so confused I just don’t know if I’m thinking clearly anymore. Been married 18 years, two kids.   Marriage has had problems for 7 years, no intimacy, no sex, no communication, just co-existence.   I don’t know when it started, just one day it was there and wouldn’t go away.     There was a third party involved for a while but we both decided to try to fix things, went to counseling, etc…. When it’s all said and done, neither of us is willing to try hard enough.  We know it’s over.   I also know I love the person I was involved with very much and want to share my life with them.   She says she loves me too but won’t be with me until I am legally separated.  I made the decision it was time to go when all hell broke loose. My 16 year old son just had cancer surgery.   They found it very unexpectedly after he fell off a bike.   The surgery went ok but the doctors feel there is still the possibility of microscopic cancer and want him to do chemo and radiation over the coming months. Before all this happened, I signed a lease on a place, moved in furniture and stuff.  Now I’m torn about what to do. I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love. I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

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I hope I can ask a question without getting flamed.  I am so confused I just don’t know if I’m thinking clearly anymore. Been married 18 years, two kids.   Marriage has had problems for 7 years, no intimacy, no sex, no communication, just co-existence.   I don’t know when it started, just one day it was there and wouldn’t go away.     There was a third party involved for a while but we both decided to try to fix things, went to counseling, etc…. When it’s all said and done, neither of us is willing to try hard enough.  We know it’s over.   I also know I love the person I was involved with very much and want to share my life with them.   She says she loves me too but won’t be with me until I am legally separated.  I made the decision it was time to go when all hell broke loose. My 16 year old son just had cancer surgery.   They found it very unexpectedly after he fell off a bike.   The surgery went ok but the doctors feel there is still the possibility of microscopic cancer and want him to do chemo and radiation over the coming months. Before all this happened, I signed a lease on a place, moved in furniture and stuff.  Now I’m torn about what to do. I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love. I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

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I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him?

Honestly, I don’t know how anyone can give the ‘right’ answer to this.  No one else is in your situation.  How does your wife feel about all of this? My best advice is to try to imagine yourself 2 years from now, looking back.  What decision will give you the best piece of mind when you reach that point?  Ultimately, you have to live with yourself, and others people’s opinions are actually secondary. This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

Best of luck to your son and sincere wishes for a complete recovery for him. Casey (Who has been divorced exactly six months as of today)

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This is truly sad.  Yes, you are entitled to a measure of happiness. However, the long and the short of it is this:  You have an obligation to your son, first.  He’s at a very vulnerable stage in his life right now and what you do over the next 12-18 months will have a profound impact on the rest of his life. If you are a half-way responsible and decent human being, you will put your life on hold for your son.  Explain it to your lady friend, and hopefully she’ll take it as a sign that you’re a good guy.  Or, you can cave into your instinct for personal pleasure and let your kid sink or swim with the trauma.  I don’t think you will. –Roger–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope I can ask a question without getting flamed.  I am so confused I just don’t know if I’m thinking clearly anymore. Been married 18 years, two kids.   Marriage has had problems for 7 years, no intimacy, no sex, no communication, just co-existence.   I don’t know when it started, just one day it was there and wouldn’t go away.     There was a third party involved for a while but we both decided to try to fix things, went to counseling, etc…. When it’s all said and done, neither of us is willing to try hard enough.  We know it’s over.   I also know I love the person I was involved with very much and want to share my life with them.   She says she loves me too but won’t be with me until I am legally separated.  I made the decision it was time to go when all hell broke loose. My 16 year old son just had cancer surgery.   They found it very unexpectedly after he fell off a bike.   The surgery went ok but the doctors feel there is still the possibility of microscopic cancer and want him to do chemo and radiation over the coming months. Before all this happened, I signed a lease on a place, moved in furniture and stuff.  Now I’m torn about what to do. I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love. I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

Response:

Uhhhhh…your gonna get flamed buddy…by me. First let me establish a few things that I beleive and maybe they can be helpful in your journey. When two people get married the physical act of sex seems to be the neo physical/emotional/spiritual consumation that creates a life long bond. When someone breaks this bond through "adultry" that initial bond is broken. Now this is not to say that many a couple have not been able to create a new and often times stronger bond, but it is never without much suffering and pain. Rebuilding trust takes a long time and a lot of work and trust is a critical componant of any marriage. For obvious reasons you have never done this, so don’t make us beleive that you "both" couldn’t try hard enough. You didn’t try at all. You made the choice to destroy your current marriage and lack of sex is not an excuse, I lived in a lovless sexless marriage for six years and never cheated. The ramifications of your choice means that now while your son needs the support of a family he does not have one. That is too bad for him not you. What is worse his dad is lying to him and his mother. The question is when, (if ever) will you start making the right choices? You have bonded with this other person and are really "married" to this other person. At the same time you have snowed your wife into thinking ou want to make things right. (Poor gal’ likely doesn’t know what to think.) Staying with your spouse is not an act of commitment but an act of guilt. When your son grows older he will know all about this, and he will hold you responsible for the heartache and pain he and his mother will feel. You are not going to fool anyone on the group into thinking that you are being selfless in this matter. When you say your marriage is a farce it is only because you have made it one. Your silly notion that the other women holds a current marriage. What on earth makes you think that if you have utterly failed at being a decent husband now that you will succeed with an illicit partner later? Really, you people amaze me. Your biggest problem is you. No the boy with cancer, not the sexless marraige, but the lying cheating manipulative selfish man that you are. Deal with you and the other things will seem very different. Look at Terri Shaddock and where dealing with himself has left him, he knows he has a chance at self respect and dignity again. Did leaving and staying with his hussy make everything better? Noooo..it was a pipe dream. No one buys the "why couldn’t it be me" line. It makes even the most jovial of us ill. Your a liar and cheat and the ground must be cold when you get up in the morning worm. Hmmmmm…let me see will this loser bother to respond, or will he simply start blathering more excuses and lies trying to paint himself as the victemized "saint" he claims to be…? Roto ~: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope I can ask a question without getting flamed.  I am so confused I just don’t know if I’m thinking clearly anymore. Been married 18 years, two kids.   Marriage has had problems for 7 years, no intimacy, no sex, no communication, just co-existence.   I don’t know when it started, just one day it was there and wouldn’t go away.     There was a third party involved for a while but we both decided to try to fix things, went to counseling, etc…. When it’s all said and done, neither of us is willing to try hard enough.  We know it’s over.   I also know I love the person I was involved with very much and want to share my life with them.   She says she loves me too but won’t be with me until I am legally separated.  I made the decision it was time to go when all hell broke loose. My 16 year old son just had cancer surgery.   They found it very unexpectedly after he fell off a bike.   The surgery went ok but the doctors feel there is still the possibility of microscopic cancer and want him to do chemo and radiation over the coming months. Before all this happened, I signed a lease on a place, moved in furniture and stuff.  Now I’m torn about what to do. I love my son, I want to be there for him, the treatments they are talking about could go on for 6 months to a year.   At the same time, I don’t want to be in this marriage anymore, and I don’t want to lose the person I love. I feel like such a jerk.  My marriage is a farce and we are just acting like things are ok for my son.  I don’t want to desert my son but I wonder if the stress of his illness and wanting out won’t take it’s toll in some other way that will hurt him.   Should I throw away a chance at happiness and stay somewhere I don’t want to be so I can be with my son?   Should I move out and find other ways to show my son I am still there for him? This is a nightmare.   Why can’t this be me instead of him?  Why does God allow this to happen to innocent kids?

Response:

Question:

   I noticed a huge dumpster behind HD.  It was overflowing with all kinds of neat stuff so I went back after they closed with a flashlight and was astonished at what was in there!  Mouldings, conduit, lots of handi panel plywood, all of it only very slightly damaged.  I assume HD is discarding this stuff, but is the Dumpster company going to recycle it or use it somehow or does it get trashed?  I’d fill up my van but I don’t want to take away someone’s livelyhood?  I felt like a thief in the night in the dumpster with a flashligh so I left.   What to do when facing such a potential gloat?  There were maybe 20 quarter sheets of birch PW, enough heavy conduit to make a big canopy and bundles of nice moldings.  Not neatly stacked, but just dumped in along with trash and rotted pallets.   Ok, I’ll wait for someone to give me some ethical advice.  

Response:

Home Depot Dumpsters go to garbage dumps or trash stations. I’ve driven many of them myself. When the continence hits the floor you should see the people rush over. Best pickens are when they put in brused boxed power tools.

Response:

   I noticed a huge dumpster behind HD.  It was overflowing with all kinds of neat stuff so I went back after they closed with a flashlight and was astonished at what was in there!  Mouldings, conduit, lots of handi panel plywood, all of it only very slightly damaged.  I assume HD is discarding this stuff, but is the Dumpster company going to recycle it or use it somehow or does it get trashed?  I’d fill up my van but I don’t want to take away someone’s livelyhood?  I felt like a thief in the night in the dumpster with a flashligh so I left.   What to do when facing such a potential gloat?  There were maybe 20 quarter sheets of birch PW, enough heavy conduit to make a big canopy and bundles of nice moldings.  Not neatly stacked, but just dumped in along with trash and rotted pallets.   Ok, I’ll wait for someone to give me some ethical advice.

If you have permission from store management to scrounge the dumpster, there’s no problem.      If you don’t,   then you may be eligible to be charged with trespassing and possibly theft,  since the stuff IS on private property. Technically,  when you throw something into a dumpster,  it becomes the property of the waste management company and later becomes the city or county’s property when it leaves the truck and hits the dump.     It’s unlikely in the extreme that the waste management company is going to object to you grabbing stuff out of their dumpster,  as long as you don’t leave a mess to clean up,   but most dumps have no scavenging restrictions and the city or county CAN charge you with stealing if you scavenge something from the dump. You would be surprised how easy it is to get permission to scavenge such a dumpster.   It may take a firm handshake with a 20 dollar bill in it, or just a nice smile and a direct question,  but most managers don’t really care what happens to that which is tossed out.   It’s already been dealt with from an accounting standpoint. CJ

Response:

Home Depot Dumpsters go to garbage dumps or trash stations. I’ve driven many of them myself. When the continence hits the floor you should see the people rush over. Best pickens are when they put in brused boxed power tools.

Continence? — Jack Novak Buffalo, NY – USA

Response:

You would be surprised how easy it is to get permission to scavenge such a dumpster.   It may take a firm handshake with a 20 dollar bill in it, or just a nice smile and a direct question,  but most managers don’t really care what happens to that which is tossed out.   It’s already been dealt with from an accounting standpoint.

From a salvage point of view, you’re right, they probably don’t care.  From a liability standpoint they usually do. — Jack Novak Buffalo, NY – USA

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Legally, when something is discarded it is considered abandoned.  As law enforcement, we can look through it without a warrant, etc.  However, when that rubbish is still on the person’s private property, it is not abandoned. (For instance, we have to wait until it is brought out to the road to search it without a warrant.) If this is still in their lot, they can still have the right to pull anything out of the dumpster they wish.  Therefore, it is still their property.  For this reason, I would get permission from the management. They may be reluctant in case you get knocked on the head, the dumpster truck picks the thing up, and you are killed in delivery.  (True story…happens fairly often, mostly to homeless people sleeping/passed out in them.) Another thing to be cognizant of…one of the most common ways for employees to steal merchandise from the store is by throwing it in the garbage and retrieving it later from the dumpster.  You may find yourself with some great company one night!  Be careful if you find that brand new in the box compressor you have always wanted.  You may find yourself in possession of stolen property. Michael — You can’t fool me.  It’s turtles all the way down.

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If you find any salami sandwiches save them for me —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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When I worked at JCPenney, we cut the athletic shoes in half before throwing them into the dumpster.  The homeless people would scrounge in the dumpsters.  Too bad all those Nike/Rebok shoes could not be donated, we were required to follow company policy.  I have seen 100’s of pounds of bananas thrown into dumspters from supermarkets.   My father donated unsold baked goods to the convent.   Amazing what companies throw out in this country–very wasteful.

Response:

They just compressed a guy in Sacramento last week at least someone heard him screaming he went threw at least one cycle. Bastard was probley after my salami sandwich —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I have seen 100’s of pounds of bananas thrown into dumspters from supermarkets.   My father donated unsold baked goods to the convent.   Amazing what companies throw out in this country–very wasteful.

Here in New York, Cityharvest (www.cityharvest.org) picks up items like this from restaurants, supermarkets, etc, and puts it to good use.

Response:

They just compressed a guy in Sacramento last week at least someone heard him screaming he went threw at least one cycle. Bastard was probley after my salami sandwich

Some people call that "Darwinism".    Since we don’t really have any effective natural predators anymore,   we have to invent dangerous machines to weed out the ones who are too stupid to stay out of trash compactors and other dangerous machines. Another such machine is called a "car".  It works best as a Darwinistic tool when the driver is young, has poor judgement,  and has been drinking. CJ

Response:

gs.  Not neatly stacked, but just dumped in along with trash and rotted pallets.   Ok, I’ll wait for someone to give me some ethical advice.  

For practical dumpster diving advice check out "dumpster diving" on your search engine to uncover the goings on of Pro-divers! Im a Diver myself ,an even own a professional Dive stick ! For folks who can do things like repair-refurbish-or just have the ability to recognize $$$ sitting in the dumpster its a good deal..Legally curbside goodies are anyones as evidenced by supreme court ruling declaring evidence obtained from trash is public domain! You COULD get into trouble by trespassing tho-OR putting stuff IN a dumpster thus stealing space..The key with Diving is to not look like a threat to anyone,and wear the apropriate DD uniform which is non descript stuff,And Never,never look like RAMBO wearing Camos n Gi stuff …Many various stores rate highly in the Dumpster lotto,,Computer stores,Book stores,industrial Mfrs throw out thousands of $$$ of items of which many can be recycled-sold…I know a few retired folks who simply pickup Goodies n store them in a storage bin till Flea market day comes.. Always have a few boxes in your truck so if the police ask you what your doin You can say Lookin for Boxes! And considering new boxes are 2.50$ EACH its not farfetched at all….Colleges are the best dumpers When the kids go home They dump Anything no matter how new in the dumpster!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gs.  Not neatly stacked, but just dumped in along with trash and rotted pallets.   Ok, I’ll wait for someone to give me some ethical advice. For practical dumpster diving advice check out "dumpster diving" on your search engine to uncover the goings on of Pro-divers! Im a Diver myself ,an even own a professional Dive stick ! For folks who can do things like repair-refurbish-or just have the ability to recognize $$$ sitting in the dumpster its a good deal..Legally curbside goodies are anyones as evidenced by supreme court ruling declaring evidence obtained from trash is public domain! You COULD get into trouble by trespassing tho-OR putting stuff IN a dumpster thus stealing space..The key with Diving is to not look like a threat to anyone,and wear the apropriate DD uniform which is non descript stuff,And Never,never look like RAMBO wearing Camos n Gi stuff …Many various stores rate highly in the Dumpster lotto,,Computer stores,Book stores,industrial Mfrs throw out thousands of $$$ of items of which many can be recycled-sold…I know a few retired folks who simply pickup Goodies n store them in a storage bin till Flea market day comes.. Always have a few boxes in your truck so if the police ask you what your doin You can say Lookin for Boxes! And considering new boxes are 2.50$ EACH its not farfetched at all….Colleges are the best dumpers When the kids go home They dump Anything no matter how new in the dumpster!

I live’d in a condo community with a lot of college kids.  They would toss out whatever Mom and Dad paid for but didn’t know about…..  I got 2 tvs and 3 stereos that way. Brad

Response:

shoot……I hadn’t thought about the dumpster.  I did ask my HD if I could have some of the pallets left out back and was told "NO"……fine no big deal, it is reusable property.  But stuff IN the dumpster! arrest me Officer!  I go to work in the wee early hrs and i could easliy swing by my local HD’s dumpster

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I noticed a huge dumpster behind HD.  It was overflowing with all kinds of neat stuff so I went back after they closed with a flashlight and was astonished at what was in there!  Mouldings, conduit, lots of handi panel plywood, all of it only very slightly damaged.  I assume HD is discarding this stuff, but is the Dumpster company going to recycle it or use it somehow or does it get trashed?  I’d fill up my van but I don’t want to take away someone’s livelyhood?  I felt like a thief in the night in the dumpster with a flashligh so I left.   What to do when facing such a potential gloat? There were maybe 20 quarter sheets of birch PW, enough heavy conduit to make a big canopy and bundles of nice moldings.  Not neatly stacked, but just dumped in along with trash and rotted pallets.   Ok, I’ll wait for someone to give me some ethical advice.

Response:

There was a time when I was a hardcore dumpster diver.   I still will hit some dumpsters when they’re convenient. I’ve found everything you can imagine, INCLUDING a shotgun. (A Stevens Model 67, 12 ga. pump.   I checked with the homeowner and he said, yes,  I could have it.)    I haven’t yet found a handgun or a rifle,  but I HAVE found a firearm,  so that covers that category. Musical instruments…of course.   A quality accordion that I made a nice bit of money selling.    A few pianos that I didn’t bother to lug home,  but did grab some ivory key facings off of. Tools.  Lots of them.    Every type of home electronics you can imagine. I’ve found wood,  and some of it was quite good stuff that I used in projects. There’s no limit, literally.     Everything that anyone buys will eventually be disposed of if it doesn’t end up in a museum.   Keep that in mind and you will soon start hitting the streets on trash day,  cruising them in an efficient pattern that covers thousands of residential garbage piles before the trash truck gets it. CJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gs.  Not neatly stacked, but just dumped in along with trash and rotted pallets.   Ok, I’ll wait for someone to give me some ethical advice. For practical dumpster diving advice check out "dumpster diving" on your search engine to uncover the goings on of Pro-divers! Im a Diver myself ,an even own a professional Dive stick ! For folks who can do things like repair-refurbish-or just have the ability to recognize $$$ sitting in the dumpster its a good deal..Legally curbside goodies are anyones as evidenced by supreme court ruling declaring evidence obtained from trash is public domain! You COULD get into trouble by trespassing tho-OR putting stuff IN a dumpster thus stealing space..The key with Diving is to not look like a threat to anyone,and wear the apropriate DD uniform which is non descript stuff,And Never,never look like RAMBO wearing Camos n Gi stuff …Many various stores rate highly in the Dumpster lotto,,Computer stores,Book stores,industrial Mfrs throw out thousands of $$$ of items of which many can be recycled-sold…I know a few retired folks who simply pickup Goodies n store them in a storage bin till Flea market day comes.. Always have a few boxes in your truck so if the police ask you what your doin You can say Lookin for Boxes! And considering new boxes are 2.50$ EACH its not farfetched at all….Colleges are the best dumpers When the kids go home They dump Anything no matter how new in the dumpster!

Response:

Yeah, you know.  North America, South America, Europe … those are all continence Continence?

– jc (Remove NoSpam when replying by mail)

Response:

Yeah, you know.  North America, South America, Europe … those are all continence

And I guess that we’re all in continence,  until we get into international waters, right? CJ

Response:

"Chris Johnson" And I guess that we’re all in continence,  until we get into international waters, right?

Well, that too. Actually, the phrase, when consisting of two distinct words, was first used by a minister as part of a benediction at the conclusion of service at an old folks’ home. Unfortunately, several of the parishioners you get the drift.

Response:

They just compressed a guy in Sacramento last week at least someone heard him screaming he went threw at least one cycle. Bastard was probley after my salami sandwich

Hell, if he went through a compactor he probably *IS* a salami sandwich about now. — John S. DeBoo

Response:

They just compressed a guy in Sacramento last week at least someone heard him screaming he went threw at least one cycle. Bastard was probley after my salami sandwich Some people call that "Darwinism".    Since we don’t really have any effective natural predators anymore,   we have to invent dangerous machines to weed out the ones who are too stupid to stay out of trash compactors and other dangerous machines.

Few weeks ago here in Albuquerque a guy escaped from custody, ran to the railroad tracks and decided to have a passing train cutt through the cuffs.  Needless to say it took off half his right arm.  Had another go in a 7/11, open his wallet & ask for change for a $20, then rob the place.  But the idiot left his wallet with his ID etc  on the counter when he left. — John S. DeBoo

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They just compressed a guy in Sacramento last week at least someone heard him screaming he went threw at least one cycle. Bastard was probley after my salami sandwich Some people call that "Darwinism".    Since we don’t really have any effective natural predators anymore,   we have to invent dangerous machines to weed out the ones who are too stupid to stay out of trash compactors and other dangerous machines. Few weeks ago here in Albuquerque a guy escaped from custody, ran to the railroad tracks and decided to have a passing train cutt through the cuffs.  Needless to say it took off half his right arm.  Had another go in a 7/11, open his wallet & ask for change for a $20, then rob the place.  But the idiot left his wallet with his ID etc  on the counter when he left. — John S. DeBoo

A relative of mine recently had a very interesting encounter with someone (two people, actually) who were caught red handed,  robbing furniture out of one of our family homes that is currently not occupied.    He ended up shooting the robber’s vehicle several times (They’d tried to run over him) and when they attempted to flee without rear tires,  they eventually wrecked, and left the following items behind in the vehicle:    The thief’s wallet, his cellular phone,  and a bag of crystal meth.      They’re in jail now, of course. Charges include attempted murder owing to their attempt to run my relative over.  (It was witnessed.) CJ

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I noticed a huge dumpster behind HD.  It was overflowing with all kinds of neat stuff so I went back after they closed with a flashlight and was astonished at what was in there!  Mouldings, conduit, lots of handi panel plywood, all of it only very slightly damaged.  I assume HD is discarding this stuff, but is the Dumpster company going to recycle it or use it somehow or does it get trashed?  I’d fill up my van but I don’t want to take away someone’s livelyhood?  I felt like a thief in the night in the dumpster with a flashligh so I left.   What to do when facing such a potential gloat? There were maybe 20 quarter sheets of birch PW, enough heavy conduit to make a big canopy and bundles of nice moldings.  Not neatly stacked, but just dumped in along with trash and rotted pallets.   Ok, I’ll wait for someone to give me some ethical advice.

In my town, scavenging in trash cans, dumpsters, etc, is against the law. The local trash co. does recycle and the rates the city pays (and hence our bills) is based on how much the trash co. makes on recycling.  You need to check with the city/town the HD is in to make sure.  You may be in there one day and a police car may pull around on a routine check.  Might be pretty embarrassing.

Response:

Welllll, if it’s urethral humor you want… Q: Why did the entire audience start peeing after Lincoln’s speech? A: He said "You’re a nation now!" Yeah, you know.  North America, South America, Europe … those are all continence Continence? — jc (Remove NoSpam when replying by mail)

                        —       Is it time for your medication or mine?  http://diversify.com  Custom Website Applications

Response:

That reminds me… In the 80’s,  the heavy metal band RATT wrote a song about prostate trouble,  or at least that’s what I think it was about. The name of the song was either "You’re in Trouble"  or "Urine Trouble"  and I’ve never been quite sure.  Even the lyrics don’t clarify the matter.   "Urine trouble….what are you gonna do?" CJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Welllll, if it’s urethral humor you want… Q: Why did the entire audience start peeing after Lincoln’s speech? A: He said "You’re a nation now!" Yeah, you know.  North America, South America, Europe … those are all continence Continence? — jc (Remove NoSpam when replying by mail)                         —       Is it time for your medication or mine?  http://diversify.com  Custom Website Applications

Response:

Legally curbside goodies are anyones as evidenced by supreme court ruling declaring evidence obtained from trash is public domain!

Unless there is a law to the contrary. My city does have a law to the contrary. No scavenging permitted. Garry

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – imho, the repeated revelations of accounting irregularities have added to profits for those selling short in today’s stock market. and it has caused losses vice versa. So what is your recommendation? Continue or increase irregularities to support and / or strengthen share prices? Like handing a drunkard a bottle of booze to cure his hangover? not at all. besides most silicon valley companies and elsewhere know that millberg weiss and other firms are rapidly filing lawsuits as soon as the shares plummet. directors, officers and accountants are waiting for the ax to fall. imho they must figure they have made so much money in the bubble years through stock options,etc that they have nothing to worry about and besides in their mind they did nothing irregular/wrong/incorrect/illegal. (think of shilling of enron).

You describe what one might call the "soft occupational fraud circuit". Emphasis on "soft". The human psyche cannot stomach getting up in the morning, looking in the mirror and saying, "What a criminal am I." i stuck my neck out in 1998-1999 about these matters and imo i was an early bird and the market enthusiasm was too great. btw the silicon valley cpa establishment went on record about possible criminal prosecutions concering earnings mgmt as early as april 2000, afaik.

As mentioned in other posts, serious accountants who dared puncture the hot air soap bubbles at road shows etc. got ignored at best. Hopefully the civil and criminal prosecutions you mention will lead in many cases to exemplary convictions and punishments, in particular to expropriation of the illicit gains you mentioned above and to licence revocations of the statutory auditors involved. Crime, including the "soft" varieties, should not pay. Those responible for these debacles are generally only creative when it comes to accounting. Their standard solution to amortise their bogus "investments" in goodwill is to lay off thousands of staffers and workers. Which will scarcely increase demand for their products. Nor prevent future rotations of the soft fraud merry-go-round. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": class struggle arrangements Serbian Delta Force terrorist NSA Khaddafi

Response:

imho, the repeated revelations of accounting irregularities have added to profits for those selling short in today’s stock market. and it has caused losses vice versa.

So what is your recommendation? Continue or increase irregularies to support and / or strengthen share prices? Like handing a drunkard a bottle of booze to cure his hangover? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Treasury SDI ammunition cracking SEAL Team 6 supercomputer Peshawar Uzi

Response:

imho, the repeated revelations of accounting irregularities have added to profits for those selling short in today’s stock market. and it has caused losses vice versa.

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Question:

U.S. Probes Computer Associates Over Stock Awards to Three Executives Accounting Crackdown Focuses Increasingly on Those at the Top By MICHAEL SCHROEDER, JERRY GUIDERA and MARK MAREMONT Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL The federal crackdown on aggressive accounting is setting its sights on more top executives, with the management of Computer Associates International Inc. among the latest to come under scrutiny. <snip More to Come? There may be more to come. The SEC recently pledged to scrutinize financial statements of the 500 largest companies. In January and February it opened an unprecedented 49 new financial-reporting cases, involving mostly large companies. That compared with 18 in the first two months of 2001. <snip http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1018575410962702920,00.html?mod=DAT According to EDGAR, CA is a KPMG account. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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A little off the rail, but…   Do you remember the allegations that International Telephone & Telegraph (ITT) managed earnings under Geneen’s leadership?  AIR, Geneen was one of the few accountants who was in to business building. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – U.S. Probes Computer Associates Over Stock Awards to Three Executives Accounting Crackdown Focuses Increasingly on Those at the Top By MICHAEL SCHROEDER, JERRY GUIDERA and MARK MAREMONT Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL The federal crackdown on aggressive accounting is setting its sights on more top executives, with the management of Computer Associates International Inc. among the latest to come under scrutiny. <snip More to Come? There may be more to come. The SEC recently pledged to scrutinize financial statements of the 500 largest companies. In January and February it opened an unprecedented 49 new financial-reporting cases, involving mostly large companies. That compared with 18 in the first two months of 2001. <snip http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1018575410962702920,00.html?mod=DAT According to EDGAR, CA is a KPMG account.

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A little off the rail, but…   Do you remember the allegations that International Telephone & Telegraph (ITT) managed earnings under Geneen’s leadership?  AIR, Geneen was one of the few accountants who was in to business building.

"For Harold Geneen, the only line was the bottom line," said his obituary in The Times: and with more than a little justification. ITT employed bribery and coercion as workaday business tactics, funded illegal operations around the world and earned notoriety for conspiring with the Central Intelligence Agency to overthrow President Salvador Allende’s leftwing government in Chile, where ITT had a substantial business. http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3FOU7RESC Not off the rail at all – at least in my opinion.  Harold was a pioneer in "earnings management". — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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Question:

Discovered Diet Watch tonight. I love the diary but found that it’s not totally accurate. Doesnt account for the non-fat foods that I’ve eaten, but it’s a good start. Anyway, check it out if you havent. Its pretty cool! Dakota 188/188/147

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Are you aware that you can customize the foods to suit you.  You can things that you eat, but arn’t in their data base. — claudia 550/370/157  A malcontent and proud of it!  Low fat rocks! For Claudia’s Cooking Newsletter celebrating low fat, sugar free cooking and living visit  http://cookingnewsletter.ecorp.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Discovered Diet Watch tonight. I love the diary but found that it’s not totally accurate. Doesnt account for the non-fat foods that I’ve eaten, but it’s a good start. Anyway, check it out if you havent. Its pretty cool! Dakota 188/188/147

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I’m not sure I know what you meant about not accounting for the non-fat foods, but I have had to add some of "my own foods" to the list, as it got frustrating to use something that was just close.  For example, I eat fat free pudding, so I took the nutrient values off of the package and added that to the database.  that makes it much easier and more accurate.  i also love dietwatch.  Claudia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Discovered Diet Watch tonight. I love the diary but found that it’s not totally accurate. Doesnt account for the non-fat foods that I’ve eaten, but it’s a good start. Anyway, check it out if you havent. Its pretty cool! Dakota 188/188/147

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Discovered Diet Watch tonight. I love the diary but found that it’s not totally accurate. Doesnt account for the non-fat foods that I’ve eaten, but it’s a good start. Anyway, check it out if you havent. Its pretty cool! Dakota 188/188/147

Dakota – you can add your own foods, even recipies.  I entered my cookie, bread, pizza, soup, etc. recipies, and now I can plug them in anytime I eat them.  Also, you can "update" your database – on the main page there’s a place where it says Update, and you can download all the foods other users have entered and uploaded. This is a GREAT timesaver, since it’s kind of a pain to enter the values on a new food every time you eat it.  Tons of brand-name stuff in there, stuff made by Kraft, etc.  I’d be on Diet Watch all damn day if I hadn’t done that. 172/154/135 Jen in ND

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I’m having problems entering "new foods" into the diary.  I can’t insert any new information into the fields

I like the program, but it is a little odd–the way it responds to mouse or keyboard actions is very unusual. For example, if you click on a blank field to enter information, a little "help" window pops up and obscures the field. I find it easier to navigate with keyboard tabs. There are a number of other little glitches, and the whole thing seems buggy and prone to crashes. I’m no software designer, so this is just my uninformed opinion as a layperson. John

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Discovered Diet Watch tonight. I love the diary but found that it’s not totally accurate. Doesnt account for the non-fat foods that I’ve eaten, but it’s a good start. Anyway, check it out if you havent. Its pretty cool!

I just downloaded DietWatch today.  It looks very interesting – but I’m having problems entering "new foods" into the diary.  I can’t insert any new information into the fields – which is quite frustrating.  I’ve mailed their tech support – has any one here experienced this problem? bye Joy

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when i enter a new food, i just start typing a food name, and then the choices drop down, but if i stick with what i have typed, and press enter? a window pops up asking if i want to invent a food, or something like that.  then i say yes, and i can enter most of the numbers.  for some reason there is one blank that doesn’t work for me, i think it is calories from fat.  the next time i type in that food name, it is one of the choices.  is this what you are doing, and this doesn’t work? Claudia from NE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Discovered Diet Watch tonight. I love the diary but found that it’s not totally accurate. Doesnt account for the non-fat foods that I’ve eaten, but it’s a good start. Anyway, check it out if you havent. Its pretty cool! I just downloaded DietWatch today.  It looks very interesting – but I’m having problems entering "new foods" into the diary.  I can’t insert any new information into the fields – which is quite frustrating.  I’ve mailed their tech support – has any one here experienced this problem? bye Joy

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First off I’d like to say how much I appreciate this group.  I’ve been lurking for a few weeks, and its great to know that losing very slowly, or even gaining weight at the beginning is normal if you also start up an exercise routine.  I don’t feel like a failure now – even though the weights not coming off but the inches are. I just downloaded and started using Diet Watch about a week ago, and I really like the diary also.  I’ve had to add several new foods since I started to use it, both single foods and groups (like my usual lunch sandwich).  To add a new food I start to type in the name of the food, and a list pops up with choices of foods.  At the bottom of this list is the entry <<add new food item  (or something like that).  When I click on that it gives me a choice of adding a single food item, a group of items, or a recipe (I’ve never tried this one).  If you pick single food item the box pops up where you enter the serving size, calories, fat, vitamins, etc.   The Calories from Fat box you can’t use – when you enter the Fat Grams in its box the Calories from fat are automatically calculated. Lisa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip  for some reason there is one blank that doesn’t work for me, i think it is calories from fat.  <snip I just downloaded DietWatch today.  It looks very interesting – but I’m having problems entering "new foods" into the diary.  I can’t insert any new information into the fields – which is quite frustrating.  I’ve mailed their tech support – has any one here experienced this problem? bye Joy

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when i enter a new food, i just start typing a food name, and then the choices drop down, but if i stick with what i have typed, and press enter? a window pops up asking if i want to invent a food, or something like that.  then i say yes, and i can enter most of the numbers.  for some reason there is one blank that doesn’t work for me, i think it is calories from fat.

You don’t need to enter the calories from fat, Dietwatch does it for you.  That’s why you can’t enter anything there Jen in ND

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Chalk me up for a third. I was really hoping to get some info there, too. Robin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I don’t remember if anyone here uses Diet Watch but when I try to log in I get the message that the server is busy. Anyone else having a problem. I ate well today and I am anxious to see all those happy green smiley faces. Margo J.

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I also use diet watch and was not able to get on to it tonight either patricia

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Hi, I don’t remember if anyone here uses Diet Watch but when I try to log in I get the message that the server is busy. Anyone else having a problem. I ate well today and I am anxious to see all those happy green smiley faces. Margo J.

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I’ve used it for two and a half months now Celeste and really like it. — 210/187/150 (first goal) Low-Fat WOE When I die, I’m leaving my body to science fiction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all I just d/l diet watch and I’m really impressed. I was jus wondering, does anyone here use this, and has it helped you along at all? Just curious Thanks, Celeste

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Hey all I just d/l diet watch and I’m really impressed. I was jus wondering, does anyone here use this, and has it helped you along at all? Just curious Thanks, Celeste

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Ok… I’ve heard about "diet watch" a couple of times now… Is this a program for the computer?  Can I get it online in MAC format? Please let us/me know what you think about it… I guess I’ll go and tryto find it on the web… Dietwatch.com? I’m trying to settle into a comfortable WOE since I’m just starting and could use some structured help… so any feedback on "diet watch" is welcome with open pixels! Sally L 270/268/170 (5′11) — Salymandr = Sally L. ,  in the sunshine state. 270/268/170 (5′11) I breathe therefore I am. To respond directly, please remove the "remove" from my email address above —

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I’m sorry I mislead you, Sally. I assumed when I saw the link for Mac Users that it was the same program as the one for Windows 95 (which is what I use). Apparently, the Mac version just allows you to use their web site info, message boards and chat rooms. The diary features are still in development. You could go ahead and download it (yes, it is free), but you’d be missing all the best parts. I’m not sure it would be much help.

PLEASE!!  don’t be sorry—you were a great help!   and I always enjoy looking at new sites anyway… looked "cool" am going to e-mail them about a mac version! Hopefully with the "imacs" coming out people will start making more MAC versions of things…  and we won’t be "those weird mac people" =  will look for the "diet sleuth" tonight… and Thanks again… Sally L — Salymandr = Sally L.   270/268/170ish (5′11-39) visualize whirled peas! To respond directly, please remove the "remove" —

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Didn’t download anything because looking at the "demo" it said that the dairy and charting screen only worked with windows 95..? and I have a MAC…no windows you know… Diva used to refer to a program for the Mac called Diet Sleuth. I don’t have the site, but I’m sure a search engine would turn it up.

It’s available at http://www.blackcatsystems.com –Adrith — Adrith L. Bicchieri   UNH   BA English pending parole May 22, 1999 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4228/be_fit/

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Didn’t download anything because looking at the "demo" it said that the dairy and charting screen only worked with windows 95..? and I have a MAC…no windows you know…

Diva used to refer to a program for the Mac called Diet Sleuth. I don’t have the site, but I’m sure a search engine would turn it up. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

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Also schrieb Salymandr: Hopefully with the "imacs" coming out people will start making more MAC versions of things…  and we won’t be "those weird mac people" = As long as they make weird Macs, you’ll still be those weird Mac people. ;-{)

Yeah…. I’m a weird mac person… …and my mother said I’d never amout to anything! ;-() — Salymandr = Sally L.   270/266/170ish (5′11)           Panic Now…avoid the rush To respond directly, please remove the "remove" —

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Also schrieb Salymandr: Hopefully with the "imacs" coming out people will start making more MAC versions of things…  and we won’t be "those weird mac people" = As long as they make weird Macs, you’ll still be those weird Mac people. ;-{)

Yeah…. I’m a weird mac person… …and my mother said I’d never amout to anything! ;-() — Salymandr = Sally L.   270/266/170ish (5′11-39) visualize whirled peas! To respond directly, please remove the "remove" —

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Also schrieb Salymandr: Hopefully with the "imacs" coming out people will start making more MAC versions of things…  and we won’t be "those weird mac people" =

As long as they make weird Macs, you’ll still be those weird Mac people. ;-{) My brother in law runs his law office on a network of weird Macs. Although he did break down and put a Linux machine in.  I helped him with the Linux machine; he couldn’t take it.   LOL —  Stack FAQ at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/4999/stackfaq.htm  349/344/wherever as the King of Tuna The Buddhist to the hot dog vendor: "Make me one with everything."

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I mainly use DIET WATCH  just to chart my weight, I found doing the diet entries to bothersome because I could not find some of the foods I ate.  And as long as I was losing the weight I did feel like I needed to  go through the burden of keeping track of it. 184-149 (145-150) Maintaining this Week so Far! -Linda  :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all I just d/l diet watch and I’m really impressed. I was jus wondering, does anyone here use this, and has it helped you along at all? Just curious Thanks, Celeste

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following manner: Ok… I’ve heard about "diet watch" a couple of times now… Is this a program for the computer?  Can I get it online in MAC format? Please let us/me know what you think about it… I guess I’ll go and tryto find it on the web… Dietwatch.com? I’m trying to settle into a comfortable WOE since I’m just starting and could use some structured help… so any feedback on "diet watch" is welcome with open pixels!

Sally, you can find the Diet Watch program at www.dietwatch.com. They do have a version for the Mac, PC, Unix and others (whatever that means). It’s free and very worth having. I like being able to input ideas for meals and seeing the calories, carbs, fiber, etc. to see if they fit in what I have left for my daily allowance. Diet Watch also has information, chat rooms and things like that at their web site, although I haven’t used them much. George 335/312/ask me when I get to 200 "You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place." – Jonathan Swift

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I use it every day and I love it.  It really has helped me track my stats. Hey all I just d/l diet watch and I’m really impressed. I was jus wondering, does anyone here use this, and has it helped you along at all? Just curious Thanks, Celeste

– KC 196/175.43/135 Eating smarter and healthier since 8/8/98

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following manner: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sally, you can find the Diet Watch program at www.dietwatch.com. They do have a version for the Mac, PC, Unix and others (whatever that means). It’s free and very worth having. I like being able to input ideas for meals and seeing the calories, carbs, fiber, etc. to see if they fit in what I have left for my daily allowance. Went there last night… couldn’t figure it out…is this totally free?? didn’t see any prices, but I’m skepitcal..? should I be? Didn’t download anything because looking at the "demo" it said that the dairy and charting screen only worked with windows 95..? and I have a MAC…no windows you know… So you say there is a mac Version — with these features???  will have to check it out again? —

I’m sorry I mislead you, Sally. I assumed when I saw the link for Mac Users that it was the same program as the one for Windows 95 (which is what I use). Apparently, the Mac version just allows you to use their web site info, message boards and chat rooms. The diary features are still in development. You could go ahead and download it (yes, it is free), but you’d be missing all the best parts. I’m not sure it would be much help. George 335/312/ask me when I get to 200 "You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place." – Jonathan Swift

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Sally, you can find the Diet Watch program at www.dietwatch.com. They do have a version for the Mac, PC, Unix and others (whatever that means). It’s free and very worth having. I like being able to input ideas for meals and seeing the calories, carbs, fiber, etc. to see if they fit in what I have left for my daily allowance.

Went there last night… couldn’t figure it out…is this totally free?? didn’t see any prices, but I’m skepitcal..? should I be? Didn’t download anything because looking at the "demo" it said that the dairy and charting screen only worked with windows 95..? and I have a MAC…no windows you know… So you say there is a mac Version — with these features???  will have to check it out again? — Salymandr = Sally L. ,  in the sunshine state. 270/268/170 (5′11) I breathe therefore I am. To respond directly, please remove the "remove" from my email address above —

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently purchased Quickbooks 5 to use in my practice of public accounting. So many of my clients seem to be making this choice. However, in trying to load my clients data from Quickbooks DOS version 1 and 2 Intuit seems to be unwilling to help in the conversion. I think it’s  a lot to ask that data can be converted automatically and/or free through 4 version upgrades, particularly when it costs as little as QB  **AND**  you’re using it professionally.  However ….. QB3 (Windows) can convert data from versions 1 and 2, DOS or Windows. QB4 (Windows) can convert data from versions 2 and 3, DOS or Windows.   QB5 I don’t know, not using it, but I presume that the manual tell you what data it can convert.  I’ll guess that it can convert data from at least version 3, 4 – and maybe also version 2.   I’ve converted about 30 files through various versions up to 4.5C (the latest Canadian version) without a single error or problem. I’d recommend that you buy a copy of version 3, use it to convert data from all previous versions, then convert the new files to version 5.  I also suggest you encourage your versions 1-2 clients to upgrade to at least version 3. If you can’t or don’t want to buy version 3, put all the older data on diskette and mail to me with a cheque or money order for $25 per file; I’ll convert them all to version 3 and return them asap.   E-mail one file to me first for a free trial.

QB 2 or 2.1 DOS can read & automatically convert QB 1 files. QB 5 Win or Pro automatically reads & converts from these. There is no going back, but QB 5 is much better. Mike Block, CPA, 275 E Oakland Pk Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334 Taxation is legalized theft!  Please help us stop this organized crime!

Response:

I recently purchased Quickbooks 5 to use in my practice of public accounting. So many of my clients seem to be making this choice. However, in trying to load my clients data from Quickbooks DOS version 1 and 2 Intuit seems to be unwilling to help in the conversion.

I think it’s  a lot to ask that data can be converted automatically and/or free through 4 version upgrades, particularly when it costs as little as QB  **AND**  you’re using it professionally.  However ….. QB3 (Windows) can convert data from versions 1 and 2, DOS or Windows. QB4 (Windows) can convert data from versions 2 and 3, DOS or Windows.   QB5 I don’t know, not using it, but I presume that the manual tell you what data it can convert.  I’ll guess that it can convert data from at least version 3, 4 – and maybe also version 2.   I’ve converted about 30 files through various versions up to 4.5C (the latest Canadian version) without a single error or problem. I’d recommend that you buy a copy of version 3, use it to convert data from all previous versions, then convert the new files to version 5.  I also suggest you encourage your versions 1-2 clients to upgrade to at least version 3. If you can’t or don’t want to buy version 3, put all the older data on diskette and mail to me with a cheque or money order for $25 per file; I’ll convert them all to version 3 and return them asap.   E-mail one file to me first for a free trial. — Vernon (Vern) Paige

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I recently purchased Quickbooks 5 to use in my practice of public accounting. So many of my clients seem to be making this choice. However, in trying to load my clients data from Quickbooks DOS version 1 and 2 Intuit seems to be unwilling to help in the conversion. I have called their customer support only to be told that the "free" software mentioned in the manual costs $149 or the cost of a new upgrade for my clients. Once they directed me to their web page, but still I receive the same error message. Has anyone had experience with this? Thanks.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)

Irwin, Please don’t respond to this guy in r.g.p.. Tout advertisements belong in r.g.sports, which is full of them.  The last thing we need around here is for all of these "services" to start posting their spam here everyday.  They are the very reason I stopped following r.g.sports. Steve

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HOW TO MAKE $800,000.00 CASH IN FOUR WEEKS! This is the fairest, most honest way I have seen to share in the wealth of the world! THIS SYSTEM WORKS!   IT IS NOT A SCAM…READ THE TEXT! Please take a few  minutes to read this and it WILL change your life.   If you want to know how to make thousands of dollars quickly, and legally, then keep reading. I am just an average person who enjoys the internet,  I saw an article in an Internet Newsgroup telling me I could make over $500,000 within a couple of months for an investment of only $5. I though it was a huge joke.  I spoke to my attorney, friends and family about it, and they all agreed it was some kind of scam.  I can’t stand scams, because usually someone gets burned, and I didn’t want it to be me.  After rejecting the idea at first, I realized all I had to lose was $5, and nothing else.  So needing more than just $5, I figured what the heck, and gave it a shot. Two weeks later, I began receiving money in the mail!  I could not believe it!   Soon, hundreds, and then thousands of dollars began to roll in. Within 4 weeks, I had received a total of $132,445!   It came from everywhere in the world. If you follow the three steps below, there is no reason why the same shouldn’t happen to you!  This is a legitimate investment opportunity.  You invest $5, and you receive a return on your investment. So does the next investor.  This is NOT ILLEGAL – and is PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE!! The Internet has grown tremendously. It doubles in size every 4  months. By investing only $5.00 in this venture you can be rewarded with TENS TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Dollars.  Think about it!  You see those ‘Make.Money.Fast’ posts more and more.  THAT’S  BECAUSE THEY WORK!   I sent in my money and mailed my letters.  Everyone was calling it a scam, but it can work for you. If you are not interested, then don’t participate, but please print this article and pass it on to someone who may be interested, so they  can take this advantage. LET’S START. This opportunity really works. It works because of basic mathematical and statistical principles. This process is somewhat similar to a pyramid process, only broader. Further, it is far more profitable for all involved. Skeptics keep reading.  Keep an open mind.  You’re intelligent if you’re skeptical.  This process works because of the formula.  The formula will make this pay.. Tim Shaw tells how he ran this program a few times last year.  The first time, he received $50,000 in cash, and over $700,000 the last time he got involved.  If this letter is continued as it should be, EVERYONE PROFITS! Just send one person FIVE DOLLARS – THAT’S ALL!  After the first time, you’ll see how easy it is and how beautifully it works! Now here are the simple details… Follow WHAT TO DO below and IN ONLY A FEW WEEKS YOU’LL RECEIVE A RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT because most people will respond, due to the LOW INVESTMENT and HIGH PROFIT POTENTIAL. WHAT  TO  DO On a blank sheet of paper, write "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST, YOU ARE NUMBER ‘X’" (Where ‘X’ is their number on the list in this article.) along with your name and address, and wrap it around one Five Dollar Bill. Through regular mail, send this to the first person on the list below. ONLY THE FIRST PERSON ON THE LIST GETS YOUR NAME AND $5 BILL!  Then remove that name from the list.  Move the other three names up and add your name to the list in the fourth position. After you have re-typed the list with your name in the fourth position, MAKE AT LEAST 20 COPIES OF THE LETTER AND SEND IT OUT IMMEDIATELY TO  20 OR MORE PROSPECTS.  Friends, relatives – anyone you’d like to see get rich along with you!  The faster you act, the faster you’ll get your money!  US Mail or Email!!!  For email, you can just cut this whole letter and paste it into the body part of your email. Then be sure to remove the first name below, then move up and re-number the last three names, and add yours as the fourth. YOU STILL HAVE TO USE REGULAR MAIL TO SEND YOUR $5 AND ADDRESS TO THE FIRST NAME!  That’s what keeps this legal and how everyone gets paid! That’s all there is to it! NOW HERE IS HOW AND WHY THIS SYSTEM WORKS: With your name in position #4, You send out 20 letters to 20 Prospects Those 20 mail out 20 letters each (400) Those 400 mail out 20 letters each (8,000) Those 8,000 mail out 20 letters each (160,000) And those 160,000 people mail YOU $5 each ($800,000) YOUR ENTIRE INVESTMENT IS ONLY $5!!! Very inexpensive when you consider the results you’ll get!  THAT’S  A POTENTIAL RETURN OF $800,000!!!!  NOW YOUR NAME DROPS OFF THE LIST. PLEASE MAIL YOUR LETTERS ASAP! I WISH YOU SUCCESS AND TOGETHER WE’LL ALL PROSPER. DON’T GIVE UP ON YOUR DREAMS!   #1 Chris Donald  2969 Bergen Ln.,  Dallas, Texas  75234   #2 Thomas Summerville  12903 Meehan Drive,  Pflugerville, Texas 78727   #3 Stephen Michaels  3950 Spring Valley Rd Apt. 815, Farmers Branch TX 75244   #4 James Burke 15 Lake Ave, Hazlet, NJ 07730 HONESTY AND INTEGRITY MAKE THIS PLAN WORK – DON’T BREAK THE RULES!  Be sure to follow the instructions EXACTLY and omit nothing. At this time we are receiving an almost 80% return rate for people wise enough to participate in the plan. The majority receive about $500,000 on average!  And rest assured this plan is 100% legal! You are providing a service to people to put them on your mailing list  (Please refer to Title 18, Section 1302 of the US Postal Code and Lottery Laws.) PLEASE NOTE: This system is based on everyone being honest, but it’s all too tempting not to bother mailing out the envelope with $5 inside.  The success for all participating is dependent upon this taking place and if carried out will mean a 500% increase on your article being redistributed! The system won’t work to yours or indeed other people’s advantage if you don’t follow the procedure. You can however, if you wish to remain anonymous use a pseudonym – but please ensure that your address is correct. P.S.  If you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the bucks to the people already included, you will not get much.  I know someone who did this and only got about $150 (and that’s after two months.)  Then he sent the $5 and was added to their lists.  In 4 – 5 weeks, he had in excess of $400,000. AS A FINAL NOTE: Many business ideas for making money, no matter how well thought out and implemented, simply don’t get off the ground.  And in most cases is due to advertising costs, but the exposure obtained through the Internet is quite honestly — pretty awesome, so please study this article carefully taking all the time you want, because the moment you begin participating you will be on track for some serious financial rewards. By the very nature of the way the system works you may not see the benefits the first week.  BUT COMMENCING THE SECOND WEEK, YOUR INTAKE OF MAIL FROM AROUND THE WORLD WILL TRULY ASTONISH YOU! Please give this some serious thought, because this is one of the few money making ideas that really does work. So have fun, be honest.  Remember, even if you get nothing, you only lost $5.  And as the old saying goes…"You can’t win if you don’t play." Best of luck to you!! OPPORTUNITY IS NEVER LOST IT SIMPLY GOES TO THOSE WHO ARE READY FOR IT. If you don’t do this you’ll wonder about it forever!  IT WORKS!! This is by far the best one of these I’ve participated in, I’ve made $350,000 in the last 5 weeks. – Steve Goodman, Dallas, TX I fully agree man. – George Nelson, Bedford, TX Me Too!!! –  Drew Cartwright, Tulsa, OK

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20-25% off all fares of a major scheduled US airline with service within the US and between the US and Europe.  For more information please visit:  http://www.cucruising.com/cu/ Follow your team out of town.

              Hello!I am Earth and nice to meet you!

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20-25% off all fares of a major scheduled US airline with service within the US and between the US and Europe.  For more information please visit:  http://www.cucruising.com/cu/ Follow your team out of town.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)                I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.                 I had the same problem and I call my credit card to dispute the charges. If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)                I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.                 I had the same problem and I call my credit card to dispute the charges. From – Wed Apr 09 11:45:29 1997 Path: alt.fishing,alt.forsale,rec.travel.marketplace,rec.sport.golf,misc.invest.m arketplace,misc.invest.misc,misc.taxes,alt.rec.camping,alt.computer.consult ants.ads,misc.entrepreneurs,triangle.forsale,rec.gambling.blackjack,rec.gam bling.poker,alt.business,rec.gambling.sports,alt.gambling,rec.gambling.misc ,rec.sport.football.pro,rec.sport.hockey,rec.sport.soccer,rec.sport.basketb all.pro,alt.sport.basketball.nba.orl-magic,alt.sports.baseball.atlanta-brav es,rec.sport.football.college,rec.sport.misc,rec.s NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.151.149.106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;

                       Get your sys fixed!

Response:

20-25% off all fares of a major scheduled US airline with service within the US and between the US and Europe.  For more information please visit:  http://www.cucruising.com/cu/ Follow your team out of town.

Response:

If you are interested in sports betting

Get to know a Boston College player.

Response:

If you are interested in sports betting Get to know a Boston College player.

I had the weirdest dream last night… I was in an OTB in Boston looking for a place that was simulcasting Sandown. I ran into Penny Hardaway, of all people, who was touting me on a 20-1 shot in a welterweight fight. He then scampered off and placed his own bet without me, and I whacked him over the head good when they guy won in three rounds. I never did find the Sandown simulcast screen. TM(&G)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)                I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.                 I had the same problem and I call my credit card to dispute the charges. If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)                I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.                 I had the same problem and I call my credit card to dispute the charges. From – Wed Apr 09 11:45:29 1997 Path: alt.fishing,alt.forsale,rec.travel.marketplace,rec.sport.golf,misc.invest.m arketplace,misc.invest.misc,misc.taxes,alt.rec.camping,alt.computer.consult ants.ads,misc.entrepreneurs,triangle.forsale,rec.gambling.blackjack,rec.gam bling.poker,alt.business,rec.gambling.sports,alt.gambling,rec.gambling.misc ,rec.sport.football.pro,rec.sport.hockey,rec.sport.soccer,rec.sport.basketb all.pro,alt.sport.basketball.nba.orl-magic,alt.sports.baseball.atlanta-brav es,rec.sport.football.college,rec.sport.misc,rec.s NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.151.149.106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;

             Something wrong with your sys due to can’t purchase your picks!

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)                I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.                 I had the same problem and I call my credit card to dispute the charges. If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)                I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.                 I had the same problem and I call my credit card to dispute the charges.

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="UNTITLED.HTM" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="UNTITLED.HTM" Content-Base: "file:///A|/UNTITLED.HTM" <BASE HREF="file:///A|/UNTITLED.HTM" From – Wed Apr 09 11:45:29 1997 Newsgroups: alt.fishing,alt.forsale,rec.travel.marketplace,rec.sport.golf,misc.invest.m arketplace,misc.invest.misc,misc.taxes,alt.rec.camping,alt.computer.consult ants.ads,misc.entrepreneurs,triangle.forsale,rec.gambling.blackjack,rec.gam bling.poker,alt.business,rec.gambling.sports,alt.gambling,rec.gambling.misc ,rec.sport.football.pro,rec.sport.hockey,rec.sport.soccer,rec.sport.basketb all.pro,alt.sport.basketball.nba.orl-magic,alt.sports.baseball.atlanta-brav es,rec.sport.football.college,rec.sport.misc,rec.sport.football.fantasy,alt .sport.horse-racing,rec.gambling.racing,rec.gambling.other-games Organization: Mike Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.151.149.106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ there you will find Real Time Sports Scoring and Real Time Betting Line Info!!!! Thanx for your time                         Frames —– No Frames                                 [Image]                         Free Sports Information                              pick a sport        NBA MLB NHL NFL NCAA FOOTS NCAA HOOPS CFL BOXING [Image]                       Get your FREE Winner NOW!                                 [Image]                        click for real time odds!      What you are about to view is quite possibly the most      sophisticated sports handicapping data base available in the      world today! Yet the novice can master it in minutes. Inside      you will see that not matter what size player you are, you      can’t afford not to have us! We offer a complete library      (updated daily) focused solely on the pointspread, totals      and money lines. If sorting through 1000’s of stats and      trends is not in your time schedule, let Lou Diamond, Bob      Fredricks and Mike "The Points" Shaver break it all down for      you with complete unbiased analysis on every Las Vegas      "board" game. Reports live from the "Las Vegas Strip" !           Home| Who is Las Vegas Cybersports? | Why Us                Free Las Vegas Sports Information | Las Vegas Betting                Line | The "Club"                     R.E.D Hot Picks           World of Handicappers | Know your Analysts | The Info           Industry                Glossary – Slang Terms used by the sports gamer                Contact Cybersports

                   What’s going on the page?I can’t get my name and password right.Is there a problem with your sys?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)

               I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)                I can’t login to your picks and could you explained why?I just register today at 1:00 E.T.

                I had the same problem and I call my credit card to dispute the charges.

Response:

If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/

Mike, any action on Formula One (Grand Prix) motorsport racing? Do you know where I can find this? Thanks, — Irwin t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l. (Helping victims of conventional wisdom)

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are interested in sports betting and would like free picks from the country’s top sports handicapper then please visit our new http://www.cybersportslv.com/ there you will find Real Time Sports Scoring and Real Time Betting Line Info!!!! Thanx for your time Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Base: "http://www.cybersportslv.com/" <BASE HREF="http://www.cybersportslv.com/" <HTML <head <TITLESports Handicapping: Handicapping: The World of Handicappers</TITLE<META HTTP-EQUIV="description" CONTENT="Here in Las Vegas we cover all the sportbooks in town and our winning strategies can work for YOU! 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Response:

Question:

American Power Conversion’s Smart-UPS series output "Pure sine wave output at 115 Vac +/-5%, -10% after low battery warning, synchronized to utility line", according to their literature.   Based on this thread, I’m sending out one of the 1400KVA models to my brother, who has been diagnosed with sleep apnea.  I am buying him a cpap machine based on the following information he received from the sleep clinic.  Since I know very little about this, I’d really appreciate any information or feedback on models, accessories, etc. Here’s the info he sent me, cut ‘n’ pasted: 1. CPAP AT 8 CM WATER PRESSURE 2.UNIT TYPE:  RESPIRONICS OR SULLIVAN 3.RAMP TIME: 5-10 MINUTES 5.HEADGEAR: SMALL WIDE  PURITAN BENNETT 6.HEATED HUMIDIFIER OR OASIS HUMIDIFICATION – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MartinLee1 wrote: > Hi John, > Thank you for the explaination on the difference between the trapezoidal and > the sine waves.

Response:

Hello group, Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A 1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. I think this means it produce good AC power. My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a cooling fan. I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. Different UPS are designed for different applications. I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also found these tests interesting too. ~Martin~ p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? Thanks, ~Martin~

Response:

MartinLee1 wrote: > Hi John, > Thank you for the explaination on the difference between the trapezoidal and > the sine waves. I did not know the difference — but now you mentioned it, I > think I saw something like that in the vendor’s documentation when I was > searching the site. The difference in the wave pattern, is it from the battery > or from the AC  inverter? If we use a car or deep cycle battery and an AC > inverter, do we also need to check for the wave pattern so not to damage our > machines? > By the way, I am leaning so much in this discussion thread. Thank you all !!! > ~Martin~

Hi Martin – Sorry it took a while for me to reply.  Your deep cycle battery + inverter  would probably work ok, as long as the inverter’s output was fairly smooth and the current rating was sufficient for the CPAP.   The type of battery  has nothing to do with the ultimate shape of the AC wave. As long as the battery has sufficient capacity, then the output wave is a function of the type and quality of the inverter, and the better ones generally cost more.  Many cheap inverters are only good for powering light bulbs and shavers,  these produce little more than square waves.  You could use an oscilloscope to see how "noisy" your inverter output is (have the CPAP attached while doing this), but most people don’t have access to test equipment like this.  It might be easier to provide your CPAP manufacturer with the  AC harmonic distortion specs from your inverter documentation, and they might be able to tell you right away if their unit is compatible. I apologize if I’m not being more specific with regard to inverters setups, since there are so many variables (harmonic distortion tolerance of the CPAP, inverter type/quality, "kluginess" of the particular setup, wiring/safety  issues, etc.) . Since we are ultimately talking about hooking this up to medical equipment, I would always check with the CPAP manufacturer to get their input  (no pun intended).  Hope this helps. Good luck! – John

Response:

In article <35ea4a86.2311…@news.iaw.on.ca>, "Jabba T. Hutt" <ja…@iaw.on.ca> writes >         From what I have seen these 12v to 120 volt inverters  is >that most of them do not use a perfect sin wave in them, t hat is why >alit of them cannot be used for running a computer as most computers >use a switching type supply and the lack of a good sine wave messes >them up.

[...] As I understand the operation of a switched mode power supply, the AC is rectified to DC, which is then filtered (smothed) by a high value capacitor before going on to the next stage. Therefore the quality of the AC waveform going into the switched mode power supply would make no difference, you could even run a switched mode power supply from a DC input! There is even a device available that converts 12V DC to 330V DC just for this purpose – see stock No. 243-1686 on http://rswww.com Regards Paul —      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@:

Response:

Martin, Look for the Phantom sleep page. There is an extensive discussion of CPAP and UPS there. One very important piece of info was battery type. Those who have made it work use what is called ‘deep cycle marine’ batteries. regards, eric pearson er…@nospammindspring.com On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. >Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short >hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran >shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option >for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit >handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is >charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the >battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This >was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus >accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a >cooling fan. >I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit >with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status >monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets >spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. >I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The >cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP >unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my >whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   >My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is >not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. >Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when >compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. >Different UPS are designed for different applications. >I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also >found these tests interesting too. >~Martin~ >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? >Thanks, >~Martin~

Response:

On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in?

I would suspect that there would be combinations that work together and combinations that don’t work together. Here’s one manufacturers’ answer to the question. ResMed uses a switchmode power supply that runs on a wide range of voltages. (The US version has a cord hard wired in but the foreign ones have a switchable cord. However, the USA models retain the 100-240 V, 50-60 Hz power supply.) To quote from the manual, written in that vaguely English language known as British-Australian: "Your SULLIVAN V can operate from a battery supply (e. g. in a truck or recreational vehicle), with the use of a suitable inverter unit. The inverter should be capable of supplying mains voltage in the range 110-240 V and should be of sufficient capacity. NOTE: A rated capacity of up to 200 W may be necessary with some brands of inverter to ensure satisfactory operation." I suspect your mileage may vary with other brands. (I know some of them sell inverters. ResMed does have a model but there aren’t any warnings in the manual saying that one has to use that particular inverter.) –C. PS: I just got titrated last night (YES, a Saturday night — the sleep lab people LOVE keeping their beds full) and I’m now learning the controls of a ResMed SULLIVAN 5. (On, off, and three choices of ramp; 16 years of education and 21 years of experience in electrical and software engineering should suffice to understand its operating controls.) I’m happy to report that I slept six hours straight, woke up for a restroom break, and then two more. (The lab techs were nice and let me sleep–it was almost lunch time before I got home. On the other hand, the tech that did my initial study was SMART and kicked me out at 6 AM so I could beat the rush hour back home!) I don’t think I have done that in three to four years. It’s a bit strange but I think I’ll adjust to it. (Just don’t try to talk. All sorts of weird things seem to happen.) –C.

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Hi Peter, I do differ with you on your comment about computer UPS not certified for motorized equipment. My file servers are stuffed with lots on motors inside. From cooling fans in each of the multiple power supplies, multiple cooling fans in the chassie, A fan on top of each CPU chips, each disk drive in the disk array (14 disks total) have two motors ( one drive motor and another for the servo read/write heads, motor in the floppy, CD ROM, tape backup drives … I think my computer UPS supplies more power to drive those motors than the actual electronics inside the computer. Anyway, this is not the point of this discussion. I did find your pointer to (http://www.newtechpub.com/phantom/psnews/) very interesting. Jerry Halberstadt discusses ‘Battery Operation of CPAP Devices …’ is excellent. Thanks for the pointer to these articles. I will have to read them a couple of times to make sure I didn’t miss anything. Thanks, ~Martin~

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Hi group, Here is my second UPS test with my CPAP unit. One of my tech has a small APC BACK-Ups Office unit.  The capacity on this unit is 250VA, 150W. I think it is around the $100 range. According to APC’s booklet, that UPS will run a Pentium desktop with 15" monitor for 7 minutes. My CPAP unit (REMstar @ 10cm H20) ran for 1 hour and 15 minutes. It beeped every 5 minutes or so and there wasn’t a silence button. This test showed me my CPAP unit do not draw that much power. I was surprised when it ran over a hour. Just wondering if you live in a power fail prone area and can document the failures, can we purchase the UPS and deduct it as required medical expense just like the xPAP unit? Any tax consultant or IRS out there? I hope to be able to test 1000VA unit this weekend for the group. ~Martin~

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In article <1998082205595000.BAA22…@ladder01.news.aol.com> MartinLee1, martinl…@aol.com writes: >My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The >specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said >it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power >consumption please us to interpret these numbers.

I think someone else already calculated that out to be 96 watts. But I also have a REMstar and did some tests for 12 volt operation prior to some camping earlier in the summer. My unit is running at 13 cm H2O and on the 12 volt port it took just about 2 amps at 13 volts. That’s only 26 watts. So I suspect that 800 ma AC current is peak startup current or some such. I can’t imagine the power supply is so inefficient as to draw 96 watts to make 26 watts of DC for the internal electronics. That’d be about 30 percent efficient, pretty dismal. I ran mine overnights on a 24 amp-hour 12 volt battery, smallish tractor sized. I only ran single nights and never ran it till it quit so I don’t know how long it really would have run. Calculations predict 12 hours, more than enough for the single night use I needed. For the remstar, and other units which run on 12 volts, a much cheaper solution than a UPS would probably be to buy a decent deep cycle battery, say a group 24 or 27 cell size. I think that runs 105 amp-hours in the group 27 size, for about $60. Then find an automatic charger that delivers at least 2 amps, and which automatically goes into float mode. I found a 1.5 amp hour unit at Walmart for $24. I’m sure you can find a 2 amp or larger unit for twice that or so. Call it $200 for the whole shooting match. A 105 amp hour battery should run my CPAP for about 50 hours, or 6 eight hour nights. With the charger running, the battery will just float, with all the load supplied by the charger. So I can run the system and not worry about backup. If the AC is on, the charger runs the CPAP and keeps the battery at top charge. If the AC goes off, the CPAP starts running on the battery, and will do that for 48 hours or so continous. I only know of two power outages in this state in that last 20 years that lasted longer than a week (ice storms both). The 12 volt solution would only run cpaps and other appliances that run at that voltage, but for $50 you can buy a 300 watt inverter to make 115 vac as necessary for devices that can’t run at 12 volts. Hope that’s useful . Kevin

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          From what I have seen these 12v to 120 volt inverters  is that most of them do not use a perfect sin wave in them, t hat is why alit of them cannot be used for running a computer as most computers use a switching type supply and the lack of a good sine wave messes them up.         If you have that many power failures and a UPS is out of the question and your machine will run 12v get yourself the biggest gellcell 12v battery you can afford,  a 12v charger that will go into a trickle charge to keep that battery topped up and at least a 5 to 7 amp 120v to 12v power supply, the type used to power mobile ham radio or cb radios.         You can have the charger wired to charge the battery at all times and the power supply wire thru a relay to the CPAP to power it at all times and when the hydro quits the power supply quits and the relay drops out and switches over to the battery.         My opinion on UPS’s is to not buy the cheapest one there is but get a couple models up from there and make sure it has a good sine wave output and it should be ok.  You don’t need a unit most of the time that will power your CPAP for 8 hours,  it just has to be enough to get you past the power outage which most times does not last more than a couple hours, if you go to bed and sleep 4 hours and the power goes out and the UPS runs it for another 3 hours you now have 3 hours more decent sleep that without it but it is still enough to get you thru the day.         Just my 2 cents worth. Len On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. >Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short >hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran >shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option >for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit >handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is >charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the >battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This >was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus >accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a >cooling fan. >I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit >with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status >monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets >spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. >I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The >cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP >unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my >whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   >My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is >not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. >Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when >compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. >Different UPS are designed for different applications. >I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also >found these tests interesting too. >~Martin~ >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? >Thanks, >~Martin~

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On 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: >Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours.

Does it really matter?  Seems to me the 650W unit is plenty enough. Why should you need more than 6.5 hours? Rationale is this, if the power goes off during the night you have already received "x" number of hours sleep.  Even if that were but 1.5 how often do you regularly sleep beyond 8 full hours?  How much beyond the 8? If the power went off well before bedtime you’re likely better off making a quick visit to the nearby hotel, friend or relatives house. By the time you reach 1000VA capable UPS, the price differential suggests to me a better option would be purchase of a lightweight portable generator.  Stick it outside with the extension cord through the window.  Besides if the power was out all day you could also use it during the daytime for the refrigerator then swap to the CPAP at night. *************************************** delete "nospam" for e-mail reply ***************************************

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It could have been a dream on or about 30 Aug 1998 04:21:52 GMT when martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) stunned my sensibilities with: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello group, >Here is my third UPS test with my CPAP (REMstar @ 10cm H20) machine. This unit >is anExide Powerware Prestige 1000P1SE. The output is stated as 120V 8.3A >1000VA 700W. On the advise of other people, the documented sine wave is +/- 3%. >I think this means it produce good AC power. >My first UPS test was with a 900VA, 650W 7.5A unit. My CPAP machine ran 6.5 >hours on it. I had hoped this 1000VA UPS will go over 8 hours. >Well it did not! It only ran my machine from 9:30 to 12:30 — just four short >hours. Looking into the features of this UPS gave me the answer why it ran >shorter. This is one of the fancier UPS units I have. This unit has the option >for additional battery units to increase it capacity. I think because this unit >handle high battery loads, it has build in cooling fan that comes on when it is >charging and shift into even higher speed when it is making AC power from the >battery. I did feel the heat coming off the unit when it was on battery. This >was basically running my CPAP unit and the cooling fan at the same time — thus >accounting for the decrease run time when compared with an UPS without a >cooling fan. >I am not saying this unit is not as good as my 900VA unit. I have this unit >with multiple external batteries, hot swapable in case of failure, status >monitoring across the network … They are protecting my communications closets >spread across multiple buildings. Simple UPS will not function in this role. >I have an even bigger APC Matrix UPS which has a number of cooling fans. The >cost of this unit is way out on what anyone would to spend to power a CPAP >unit. I will not test that UPS unit or my biggest one (50KVA) that power my >whole computer room — which is back up by a generator.   >My test result showed me just looking at the battery reserve capacity alone is >not enough. I also need to look at how the UPS run when it is producing power. >Internal components, such as cooling fans, will shorten the run time when >compared to another similar capacity unit but without the same features. >Different UPS are designed for different applications. >I have learned a bit more on UPS units running these test. I hope you also >found these tests interesting too. >~Martin~ >p.s. Can anyone answer my question on the DC/AC inverter? I am correct in >assuming we need to check for the  speces on the invertor to see what type of >AC wave (sine or trapeziodal) it produces before plugging our machines in? >Thanks, >~Martin~

Sounds like some good information, Martin. This makes me wish that we had a comprehensive UPS/alternative power source FAQ for this group.  The technical prowess is definitely present here. Thanks, D

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Hi John, Thank you for the explaination on the difference between the trapezoidal and the sine waves. I did not know the difference — but now you mentioned it, I think I saw something like that in the vendor’s documentation when I was searching the site. The difference in the wave pattern, is it from the battery or from the AC  inverter? If we use a car or deep cycle battery and an AC inverter, do we also need to check for the wave pattern so not to damage our machines? By the way, I am leaning so much in this discussion thread. Thank you all !!! ~Martin~

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MartinLee1 wrote: > Hi Peter, > I do differ with you on your comment about computer UPS not certified for > motorized equipment. My file servers are stuffed with lots on motors inside. > From cooling fans in each of the multiple power supplies, multiple cooling fans > in the chassie, A fan on top of each CPU chips, each disk drive in the disk > array (14 disks total) have two motors ( one drive motor and another for the > servo read/write heads, motor in the floppy, CD ROM, tape backup drives … I > think my computer UPS supplies more power to drive those motors than the actual > electronics inside the computer. Anyway, this is not the point of this > discussion. > I did find your pointer to (http://www.newtechpub.com/phantom/psnews/) very > interesting. Jerry Halberstadt discusses ‘Battery Operation of CPAP Devices > …’ is excellent. Thanks for the pointer to these articles. I will have to > read them a couple of times to make sure I didn’t miss anything. > Thanks, > ~Martin~

Hi Martin – Peter is correct about not using "computer" type UPS’s for motor loads. Most  UPS’s sold to consumers for their PC’s  generate a trapezoidal wave or an approximated sine wave from the battery, not a smooth, true AC sine wave.  The PC’s internal AC power supply can handle this easily, and just converts this approximated AC sine wave into DC power for all the fans, motors, and disk drives. The problem occurs when people try and connect other kinds of non-computer devices to this type of UPS.  Though not always immediately apparent,  motors and certain AC circuits can eventually be damaged by this approximated sine wave, especially if run for continuous periods.  At the very least,  it might void the warranty if the attached device failed.  The safest thing would probably be to buy a UPS that produced "true" sine waves (like the APC Smart-UPS Series), but unfortunately these start at around $450. Anyway, even though it’s not the ideal setup,  I suppose it  beats having no backup power for the CPAP in a blackout, and most UPS’s use gel batteries that are relatively safe.  The other good thing is that the CPAP would only be running off the UPS when a blackout occurred, hopefully not too often.  In any case, I would still check with the manufacturer of the CPAP. – John

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F. Feeney wrote: > snipped < > For the remstar, and other units which run on 12 volts, a much cheaper > solution than a UPS would probably be to buy a decent deep cycle battery, > say a group 24 or 27 cell size. I think that runs 105 amp-hours in the > group 27 size, for about $60. Then find an automatic charger that > delivers at least 2 amps, and which automatically goes into float mode. I > found a 1.5 amp hour unit at Walmart for $24. I’m sure you can find a 2 > amp or larger unit for twice that or so. Call it $200 for the whole > shooting match. > snipped < > Kevin

I agree that I wouldn’t buy a UPS just for my CPAP, but I already have one for my home computer.  If there’s a power outage at night I’ll just go downstairs and grab the UPS and carry it to my bedroom. The point is that if you plan to buy a UPS anyway, consider sizing it for both your computer and your xPAP.  Since I have quite a computer setup I bought a Tripp Lite 650W UPS that keeps my stuff running for about 10 minutes.  With more thought I would have bought the 1000W UPS. — BigAl db-g…@bigfoot.com

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I agree with the group’s comment about computer UPS unit isn’t exactly cheap. I’ll see if I can find the smallest UPS in my area and do the same test. I think one of my Tech have a little $50 or $75 unit which he use keep a couple of modems alive while that particular circuit switch over to emergency power. Charles, Is your calculation of 92 watts means my unit will use 92 watts per hour? Then do I divide 92 into the 630 watts, which give me about 6.8 hrs. Then taking the UPS inefficiency and housekeeping … then the 6.5 hrs run time seems to make sense? This why I decided to plug in my unit and watch the clock. Thanks, ~Martin~

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APC has outstanding technical data.  I don’t know if they have presales tech support.  However, if they do I’m pretty sure that they could provide any information requested. Since I work in computer mail order I thought I might mention that you can usually get a deal without lying.  Many reps will deal with you if you just ask.  It is more likely if you are placing a large order, or ordering late at night or at the end of the month.  However, most reps have a pretty good idea that their competitors prices aren’t too much different than their own and often the price is verified.  Perhaps not all sales people function like it but most are real people and don’t appreciate being lied to. Of course, since you mentioned those "other guys" I can’t leave out the URL for the company that makes my CPAP possible:  Mac/PC Zones at http://www.zones.com Tony BigAl <db-g…@bigfoot.com> wrote in article <35DEEA38.4…@bigfoot.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Those are list prices, if you intend to buy one, try one of the online > sources such as Computer Discount Warehouse at http://www.cdw.com  They > also sometimes give even lower prices if you call them and ask.  SAy you > got a better price elsewhere such as PCMall. > BigAl > db-g…@bigfoot.com

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Please note that MOST UPSs for computer equipment are NOT certified for motorized equipment (your xPAP).  Check carefully because some can have catastrophic failures under such use (ie: battery explodes). The Phantom Sleep has an excelent write-up on back ups for xPAPs. See:  http://www.newtechpub.com/phantom/ Peter

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On 22 Aug 1998 05:59:48 GMT, martinl…@aol.com (MartinLee1) wrote: >My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The >specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said >it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power >consumption please us to interpret these numbers.

        800 ma = 800 milliamperes = 0.8 amperes         0.8 amperes * 115 VAC (volts AC) = 92 watts Typically, devices with motors (like CPAPs) will ONLY draw their peak power drain with they’re starting up. It might be useful to compare how long the same UPS will run a 100-watt light bulb. The battery will charge up to hold a certain number of watthours of power. However, the amount the CPAP will get to use won’t be linear with different loadings, because the battery power dissipates in three different paths:         Power out of battery = Power to CPAP                         + UPS inefficiency (load dependent)                         + UPS minimum power to run ("housekeeping") Because the UPS has a minimum power use for its control circuitry, a UPS won’t run a 100-watt bulb twice as long as it runs two 100-watt bulbs. Hope this doesn’t muddy the WAT[T]ERS too much… –C.

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Those are list prices, if you intend to buy one, try one of the online sources such as Computer Discount Warehouse at http://www.cdw.com  They also sometimes give even lower prices if you call them and ask.  SAy you got a better price elsewhere such as PCMall. BigAl db-g…@bigfoot.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Paul Kemp wrote: > Hi Martin, > Very interesting, there is nothing to beat a practical test. I will be > waiting with interest for the results of your subseqent tests. > One point worth mentioning here (I hope you will agree). You are using > professional quality UPS units with high capacities, don’t think that > you can go to the computer store and buy a $100 UPS and expect it to run > your CPAP for more than half an hour. > However: > I went to the APC web page and found they have a section called "Runtime > & Sizing". > Here you can put in your power and runtime requirements, and a list of > UPS’s meeting your requirements will be displayed. > If you go to: > http://www.apcc.com/english/prods/works/backs/index.htm > And click on the "Runtime & Sizing" link at the left of the page you > will get to it. > In this section leave everything at its default value except; change the > monitor type to "None", change the Power Margin to 0%, and the desired > run time to 8 hours. This will give you a power consumption of 50W > (typical for CPAP alone). > This came up with a UPS that would apparently run for 842 minutes (14 > hours). > But remember it is 8.5 x 6.7 x 17.3 inches, weighs 60lb, and costs $600 > + $258 for a battery! > If you have got the money it would seem like quite a good solution for > folks with power supply interruption problems. > snipped <

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In article <1998082205595000.BAA22…@ladder01.news.aol.com>, MartinLee1 <martinl…@aol.com> writes Hi Martin, Very interesting, there is nothing to beat a practical test. I will be waiting with interest for the results of your subseqent tests. One point worth mentioning here (I hope you will agree). You are using professional quality UPS units with high capacities, don’t think that you can go to the computer store and buy a $100 UPS and expect it to run your CPAP for more than half an hour. However: I went to the APC web page and found they have a section called "Runtime & Sizing". Here you can put in your power and runtime requirements, and a list of UPS’s meeting your requirements will be displayed. If you go to: http://www.apcc.com/english/prods/works/backs/index.htm And click on the "Runtime & Sizing" link at the left of the page you will get to it. In this section leave everything at its default value except; change the monitor type to "None", change the Power Margin to 0%, and the desired run time to 8 hours. This will give you a power consumption of 50W (typical for CPAP alone). This came up with a UPS that would apparently run for 842 minutes (14 hours). But remember it is 8.5 x 6.7 x 17.3 inches, weighs 60lb, and costs $600 + $258 for a battery! If you have got the money it would seem like quite a good solution for folks with power supply interruption problems. Regards Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello Group, >Seems like a number of us are discussing attaching our CPAP unit to UPS >(Uninterruptible Power Supply). I decided to an experiment to see how long my >CPAP unit will run on a UPS that was design for a computer server. >Just for reference, my CPAP unit is a Respironics REMstar set at 10cm H2O. I >manage computer operations for the company I work for and have access to a >number of difference size UPS units. I will try to run multiple UPS tests with >my CPAP unit. >Basically I plug in my CPAP unit to the fully charged UPS and time it to see >when my CPAP unit will stop running. When the batteries are drained low enough, >most UPS will shut itself off to prevent damage to the batteries and circuitry. >Most UPS will have an audible alarm when the power is gone. My units have a >switch to silence the beeps after the initial alarm. I can’t see anyone >sleeping through the beeps once every 5 seconds or so if they don’t silence it. >So people who wants to be waken up by a alarm (not by choking) when the power >goes out, may see advantage in getting an UPS unit. >My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The >specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said >it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power >consumption please us to interpret these numbers. >My CPAP unit ran for 6.5 hours on this APC Back-UPS 900. The last 10 minutes >the alarm came back on solid and could not be silenced. A good feature to let >us know it is about to shut itself down. >I am not sure about the current price of this unit. This is an older unit and >it is not listed in the APC catalog any more. Looking at other UPS with the >similar capacity, I believe it is between the $350 to $400 range. Not exactly >pocket change in my book. >My next test will be a 1000W UPS unit, and then a smaller 400W UPS unit. Since >my computer servers are running 24 hrs by 7 days, I will have to arrange for >down time to make them available for my tests. >Your xPAP unit may run longer or shorter than mine unit depending on the power >it draws. I hope at least using my unit as an example, this will give the group >some idea on CPAP run time on computer UPS units. >So on a 900W UPS unit, my CPAP ran for 6.5 hours. More to follow later. >Regards, >~ Martin Lee ~

– Paul Kemp       E Mail:         p…@kemp.demon.co.uk                 Home Page:      http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/                 ICQ Pager:      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266

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Hello Group, Seems like a number of us are discussing attaching our CPAP unit to UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply). I decided to an experiment to see how long my CPAP unit will run on a UPS that was design for a computer server. Just for reference, my CPAP unit is a Respironics REMstar set at 10cm H2O. I manage computer operations for the company I work for and have access to a number of difference size UPS units. I will try to run multiple UPS tests with my CPAP unit. Basically I plug in my CPAP unit to the fully charged UPS and time it to see when my CPAP unit will stop running. When the batteries are drained low enough, most UPS will shut itself off to prevent damage to the batteries and circuitry. Most UPS will have an audible alarm when the power is gone. My units have a switch to silence the beeps after the initial alarm. I can’t see anyone sleeping through the beeps once every 5 seconds or so if they don’t silence it. So people who wants to be waken up by a alarm (not by choking) when the power goes out, may see advantage in getting an UPS unit. My first test is with a Back-UPS 900 by APC (American Power Conversion). The specs on this unit are 900VA, 630W 7.5A. I think the label on my REMstar said it draw 800ma at 115VAC. Anyone out there who is good at calculating power consumption please us to interpret these numbers. My CPAP unit ran for 6.5 hours on this APC Back-UPS 900. The last 10 minutes the alarm came back on solid and could not be silenced. A good feature to let us know it is about to shut itself down. I am not sure about the current price of this unit. This is an older unit and it is not listed in the APC catalog any more. Looking at other UPS with the similar capacity, I believe it is between the $350 to $400 range. Not exactly pocket change in my book. My next test will be a 1000W UPS unit, and then a smaller 400W UPS unit. Since my computer servers are running 24 hrs by 7 days, I will have to arrange for down time to make them available for my tests. Your xPAP unit may run longer or shorter than mine unit depending on the power it draws. I hope at least using my unit as an example, this will give the group some idea on CPAP run time on computer UPS units. So on a 900W UPS unit, my CPAP ran for 6.5 hours. More to follow later. Regards, ~ Martin Lee ~

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————18E76EF77C22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI: I attached my CPAP to a APC 650 UPS, and turned it to full  blast… The runtime was 1 hr and 12 minutes…  Enough for a small blackup!! Remember, this was a full blast!!! Hope this helps you all….. jim ————18E76EF77C22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <HTML><BODY> <DT>FYI:&nbsp;</DT> <DT>&nbsp;</DT> <DT>I attached my CPAP to a APC 650 UPS, and turned it to full&nbsp; blast… The runtime was 1 hr and 12 minutes…&nbsp; Enough for a small blackup!!&nbsp; Remember, this was a full blast!!!</DT> <DT>&nbsp;</DT> <DT>Hope this helps you all…..</DT> <DT>jim</DT> </BODY> </HTML> ————18E76EF77C22–

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James Lorance <jas…@inlink.com> writes: >I attached my CPAP to a APC 650 UPS, and turned it to full  blast… The >runtime was 1 hr and 12 minutes…  Enough for a small blackup!! >Remember, this was a full blast!!!>Hope this helps you all….. >jim

Good experimient, Jim. Could you attach a 50 or 90AH deep cycle battery to this unit, then you could get a full night’s sleep? For a detailed review of the technical options for an electrical backup system for the CPAP, see the Phantom Sleep Page. — Jerry Halberstadt. *President, New Technology Publishing, Inc: Health & Business Resources *Principal, FORESIGHT: Visionary business plans. * PHANTOM SLEEP PAGE <http://www.newtechpub.com/> *<halbe…@world.std.com> * 6 W.Blvd. POB 1737, Onset MA 02558 USA.

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