Question:

"Pumpkinhead" (pumpkin_head060…@hotmail.com) writes: > My parents never give a shit about my education.

WQhat did you do about t…? I mena…did you then decide to take classes of any kind anyway, outside the school ones..? —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Hot Pnats" (Sl…@slorp.cum.oh!) writes: > In article <cpa36m$23…@theodyn.ncf.ca>, bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA > says… >> "Hot Pnats" (Sl…@slorp.cum.oh!) writes: >> > In article <BDDDD11B.2E592%skle…@yahoo.co.uk>, skle…@yahoo.co.uk >> > says… >> >> > Just contribute…Just post. >> >> > 45. Classes your parents made you take >> >> >     outside school (piano? Ballet? Judo? >> >> >     Boxing? Macrame? Ceramics? What?) – Chloe. >> >> My parents made me take shorthand/typing because they didn’t think doing art >> >> was a practical choice for a future career. I was useless at shorthand >> >> [don't know why because I'm short and I've got hands] but I’m glad I >> >> msaterde the tuping it’s come in handy for usenet. >> > nothing, mah parents were angainst education >> Mine encouraged it and believd that earnign it was part of the education >> too. In other words f yopu wanted college or uni, you paid for it yourself. >> Which I then did. >> As for oher classes, well, lessee. I had ballet a while. >> An older sister chipping in so that me and my younger sister oudl attend. >> Other than that, it wa pretty much at college I did more activities, as in >> chsing my gym classes to do stuff like mountian h9king a weekend; scuba >> diving; modern dance; karate; swimmign lessons instructor level; horse >> riding; fencing; stuff like that. >> Classes were 24 a week and I was stuck there waiting for a ride back home >> 40 plus hours a week, so. Heh. >> At uni I did a bit of racketball and squash, and weights as in nautilus >> and the likes. I also danced a LOT each weekend. >> Or alone at home:) >> At home, my parents woud stress a talent in each oen of us. But once >> someoen was said to ave a goven talent before you were born, you ahd to >> have another. Seemed to eb to develop individuality. > That iz so hard fer me to comprehend hacing a parent that eber stressed > any kind of talent any of us had. Seems like mom did her best to stomp > them owt. I cant recall mah parents eber saying I wuz gud at anyting

As I grew up, I thought it was a sort of education understandign they had agreed upon to try and make happen. Even the 52 foster kids they raised on top of us were told each of what their talent was, and encouraged in developing it. From electrician to construction worker to doctor passing by plumber, cook, etc. If oen did not have the talent for school grades, they still foudn them a talent that woudl of its own get the kid interested in that area cause they were said to be good at it. What was soemtimes discouraging as that again, if one born before you was said to have a talent in arts, say, as good as the next one woudl be at it, be it better than the forst, only the forst one woudl be said to that it was a talent of theirs and encouraged that way. —

Response:

"Sklenge" <skle…@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:BDE0EBD4.2EE2B%sklenge@yahoo.co.uk… > Pumpkinhead wrote: >>>> I’ll be >>>> seeing a careers advisor on Monday. >>> What kind of job would you like? >> I don’t know.  Hopefully the advisor will help me realise. > What course are you doing?

Hi.  Mathematics and physics.

Response:

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 10:13:56 GMT, Sklenge sayeth: >> Just contribute…Just post. >> 45. Classes your parents made you take >>     outside school (piano? Ballet? Judo? >>     Boxing? Macrame? Ceramics? What?) – Chloe. > My parents made me take shorthand/typing because they didn’t think doing art > was a practical choice for a future career. I was useless at shorthand > [don't know why because I'm short and I've got hands] but I’m glad I > msaterde the tuping it’s come in handy for usenet.

I was forced to do ballet as a kid as the girls at my School did that while the boys played outside. I always wanted to be outside having fun with the boys and so resented ballet and did it half-assed. My ballet teacher hated my guts. She once grabbed me by the hair and hauled me off my feet across the room. When my Mum found out she had to be restrained from ripping her hair out. — ————————————— http://vilmab.blogspot.com             —————————————

Response:

Pumpkinhead wrote: > "Sklenge"wrote >>>>> I’ll be seeing a careers advisor on Monday. >>>> What kind of job would you like? >>> I don’t know.  Hopefully the advisor will help me realise. >> What course are you doing? > Hi.  Mathematics and physics.

Was the careers advisor any use today?

Response:

>> I’ll be >> seeing a careers advisor on Monday. > What kind of job would you like?

I don’t know.  Hopefully the advisor will help me realise.

Response:

Pumpkinhead wrote: >>> I’ll be >>> seeing a careers advisor on Monday. >> What kind of job would you like? > I don’t know.  Hopefully the advisor will help me realise.

What course are you doing?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > Sklenge (skle…@yahoo.co.uk) writes: > > Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > >> Sklenge (skle…@yahoo.co.uk) writes: > >>>> Just contribute…Just post. > >>>> 45. Classes your parents made you take > >>>> outside school (piano? Ballet? Judo? > >>>> Boxing? Macrame? Ceramics? What?) – Chloe. > >>> My parents made me take shorthand/typing because they didn’t > think doing art >>> was a practical choice for a future career. I was > useless at shorthand >>> [don't know why because I'm short and I've > got hands] but I’m glad I >>> msaterde the tuping it’s come in handy > for usenet.  >>> > >> Odd, I was reminescing about highschol just last evening, going to > bed, >> and thinking about how in those days, typing classes were > just given to >> poeple categorized at age 14 as "better not think of > a college or uni >> education in your case. How about typing and > hairdressing?" >> The same, promising students (according to the > school system’s belief:)) >> would take sciences and so on, and the > "others" woudl have commerce and >> typing and all that. > > Hahahaaa. I went to a girls’ school and we weren’t taught anything > > boys were taught; so no woodwork, metalwork, physics, football… > > we got taught needlework, cookery, painting and hockey. Our careers > > advice was to become a secretary, teacher, nurse, housewife [if > > pretty] or housekeeper [if ugly]…  sigh them were the days. > Hehahaha, yeah, I had a bit of that too, which stopped before my > highschool where they taught that starting grade nine usually, > calling it "family sciences" L:) > Howqever, I was sent to the only school left that taught latin, and > over there they gave the "family sciences" classes. as an all girl > highschool for that year (parents moved a lot, and I changed schools > each year or so.  Only two years I did in a same school, until > college (two years) and uni (9 years at same uni. No, was not a flunk > thing Tuut:):)) > Anyway. The teachers themselves did not know how to sow anythign save > the straight usual sowing stitches:), or the standard knitting, all > on same "side":). > I happeend to have parents that knew hwo to do everythign from > scartch and watchign them at it was already providing me with more of > that than that eyar did. Besides, that "family sciences" thing was > dropped after a few months of that one eyar, replaced by "fine arts" > which consisted of a huge woman walking in, talking like a total > welfare recepient of the 10th generation:), and woudl ask us all to > get a sheet out of our bnder and draw "whatever". > That was the most borign class I ever had, if there were more "fine > arts" calsses of the kind inmy elementary school years….Blerhh. > We were not allowed the traditional boy’s "stuff" either. I rememebr > that I loved speed and raciong (car racing:)), where I wanted to > learn mechanics.  I asked my father if there was a way to make the > school director in the next highschool, where there was both biys and > girls, teens actually, understand that I meant it and wanted to elarn > that and found it important.  My father tried. He was told that there > was no way cause I wsa an A+ student and had the highest scores in > French and every science class I had, and so on, where that woudl be > a waste. When my father insisted sayign that I had two free hours > each day and coudl easily add the mechanics class, sicne I had no > problem with my average, the dorector answered that the real reason > was that sicne i was all boys, putting a girl in there woudl distract > them boys and make them flunk their mechanics classes (sic) and so I > was refused. > Bt I "revenged" at the farm, building barns, pouring concrete, > replacing roofing, and doing all the "guys’ things" I could, if > asking my faher to teach me mechanics himself was then discarded by > him too:(.  It actually made it though so that hen the yougest of us > girls asked to be taught mechanics, my father had by the receondiered > his position about it being a biys’ thing only, and taught her, at > least. > From my mom, I learned all them family sciences that even teachers > never heard of. I liked learnign of how things used to be done and to > elarn to try and do that myself. From the real patchworks where at 14 > I ahd done 4 already of over 2,500 pieces each, to making pillows > with feathers or duvet, to how to make mattresses, carpets, fishing > nets, how yo buold a lamp (mom considered that aprt a woman’s thing, > and puttign the wire through it a guy’s thing where then I can do > nice useless lamps:)), to even elarning how to mend socks > and..stockings. I forgot the latter if soemwhere in a box is stillan > old antique crochet made just for the purpose of mending a run in > real silk stockings, mppft:) >  >  >> It woudl ahve been useless to teach me to type > anyway by then. >> It would have been too late. > >> I already had used my sister;s typewriter and started typing with > no >> method, and alredy founfd books on shorthand where I learned f > the real >> shorthand scribbles, and foudn it a waste of time as I > had my own coding >> method that was as fast and for some frequently > used words even faster.  >> Course it meant that no oen coudl > decipher it but me, as some elarned >> insistign for me to let them > my notes when they missed a class, despite my >> sayign I woudl sure > wanna, btu they;d not udnerstand a thing. They;d >> giveme the "ya > darn snob:(" dirty look, and then I woudfl hand my notebook >> to > them sayign ‘Fine then!:)" to seethem the next day sigh and say "what > >> does thgis mean? And that? Thanks, but…I think I will ask > soemoen else >> instead a next time":).  >> > >> As for typing…. > >> I shoudl have been thought that as soon as a typewriter was in the > house.  >> > >> As an editor I actuallyd di not need it for the longest time. > >> We were considerd professionals where in thse days that emant > havign >> secretarties and OCEs to type the stuff up for you. > >> I ahd a team of 12 of those typimg my handwritten stuff. > >> But then I coudl foresee the dayw en we woudl be both the writers, > proof >> readers, eitors and publishers, using a pc to do so, and > started taking >> puter lessons for word processing. > >> After goign through 4 different programs in 2 years, as technology > >> "progressed", I saw that too as a waste of time. > >> And when I learned to gain speed and accuracy at a pc keyboard, > kaboom.  >> They decided to not pay for jeytronics anymore and had us > all on the same >> cheap keyvboards as those who barely sue them in > a day. With the actual >> result. > >> Add to that that at work I have a round jeyboard, at home a regular > >> standard one, and that the one I ahve at the common station si et a > >> different model, where all accents and characters for French are > all >> programmed to be in different places, drivign you nuts with > frustration….  >> And see if I care ;-);-) > > Why does French need accents? I’ve got a sweet little portable > > typewriter which has all the accents etc I think I’ll get it out > > again [for all those poison pen letters I need to write]. I’ll post > > a pic – it’s really very quaint. > >> ne ay, I will pay myself my own work and home total three > >> keytronicskeyboard or whatever will eb the bvest in those days for > the >> speed of the keys and the way they "pop back: and get used > evenly no mater >> which you use the most. And then I might fidn it > worth the investing more >> effort. > >> Until then, I just retype endlessly until perfect for what is > professional. > > Typing on an old Imperial typewriter breaks your nails. > I had an old model that already was an antique way then, soemthign > like the first commercial typewriters….Can;t rememebr the  name > but woudl you name it I;d know it;-). > Those you had really hammer the keys in about 5 inches before the lil > character hammers woudl touch the paper:) > That woudl make them jamm woud you type too fast… > But it was on one of those I used to type 150 words per minute:) > I did my uni essays on that old thing:) > Someoen threw it out a window one day, from a third floor aparment, > as he was tired of the hammering sound on his hedache. Was his > machine anyway, his loss. The machine as an antoque was already worth > a few thousands at the time. > —

I wuz teh first girl in teh historee of teh hi skool I went to that took power mechanics. — ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— ———————— Teh REEL Official ASS Gallery http://assgallery.freeserverhost.com

Response:

The Entire Population of Liechtenstein wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sklenge wrote: >>> 45. Classes your parents made you take outside school (piano? Ballet? Judo? >>> Boxing? Macrame? Ceramics? What?) – Chloe. >> My parents made me take shorthand/typing because they didn’t think doing art >> was a practical choice for a future career. I was useless at shorthand [don't >> know why because I'm short and I've got hands] but I’m glad I msaterde the >> tuping it’s come in handy for usenet. > I wasn’t made to take any classes outside school, so I’m going to change the > subject of this thread and talk about gobbets of mucus instead. > I feel really shit at the moment. Had this flu, seemed to be getting better, > then suddenly it’s got worse again, coughing quite a lot, feel tired and > wrecked and beat-up, eyes stinging for some odd reason, permanent headache, > not much appetite, losing weight. Maybe the long hours combined with not > having time to eat properly, dunno. This morning at work I coughed and a huge > gobbet of mucus came flying out of my throat and landed on the keyboard. At > the time I was adding a line of code to the Deactivate event of a form, so > what emerged on the screen after vainly trying to remove mucus from between > keys was something like: > Private Sub Form_Deactivate() On Error Resume Next > ggggggffffffeeeeeeeeeeeesssreeeeeeerrf44222232rwaaaaaa!! End Sub > Then an error message came up, followed by a Help window. > There is no punchline. Does anyone else have any uninteresting anecdotes > involving mucus?

I alluded to this elsewhere but one of my four or five mucal tales involves a third party. I’ll call him Obadiah. He would take his paper hankies and, after thoroughly filling them with clear nasal fluid, would drape them over a heat source to dry for reuse. We could all learn from his example. I hope you gain control of your exudings asap.

Response:

Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > Sklenge writes: >> Hahahaaa. I went to a girls’ school and we weren’t taught anything boys were >> taught; so no woodwork, metalwork, physics, football… we got taught >> needlework, cookery, painting and hockey. Our careers advice was to become a >> secretary, teacher, nurse, housewife [if pretty] or housekeeper [if ugly]… >> sigh them were the days. > We were not allowed the traditional boy’s "stuff" either.

From my perspective I was glad. I was definitely not interested in boys stuff, having grown up with two brothers I realized that boy stuff was not something I wanted to have much to do with. I was mostly glad because it meant I could ‘freewheel’ at school. My parents were fairly hostile to me learning how to bake cakes and scramble eggs at school because this was something they felt ought to be taught in the home. Funny though, because I didn’t learn how to cook from school or my mother – I learned by finding myself in Hull without access to a live in skivvy and no money to eat out all the time. It’s amazing how quickly a starving female can learn how to cook minced cow. Anyway I’m a lazy female so *not* having to do things is much more my style than having to do things. > I rememebr that I > loved speed and raciong (car racing:)), where I wanted to learn mechanics. I > asked my father if there was a way to make the school director in the next > highschool, where there was both biys and girls, teens actually, understand > that I meant it and wanted to elarn that and found it important. My father > tried. He was told that there was no way cause I wsa an A+ student and had the > highest scores in French and every science class I had, and so on, where that > woudl be a waste. When my father insisted sayign that I had two free hours > each day and coudl easily add the mechanics class, sicne I had no problem with > my average, the dorector answered that the real reason was that sicne i was > all boys, putting a girl in there woudl *distract* them boys and make them > flunk their mechanics classes (sic) and so I was refused.

Would it have helped if you’d've worn some kind of abaya? > Bt I "revenged" at the farm, building barns, pouring concrete, replacing > roofing, and doing all the "guys’ things" I could, if asking my faher to teach > me mechanics himself was then discarded by him too:(. It actually made it > though so that hen the yougest of us girls asked to be taught mechanics, my > father had by the receondiered his position about it being a biys’ thing only, > and taught her, at least.

"Revenge" is a kind of wild justice. My dad would have been really pleased to teach me anything, especially car mechanics. He managed to train me how to change a wheel and check oil/water and replace a bulb and check fuses but I’m still completely ignorant of what happens in there. I put petrol in and a magic box makes a lot of noise and I’m transported to http://www.hdprint.co.uk/streetcam.htm [webcam of nearby town]. I’m happy to believe this is all done by magic. > From my mom, I learned all them family sciences that even teachers never heard > of. I liked learnign of how things used to be done and to elarn to try and do > that myself. From the real patchworks where at 14 I ahd done 4 already of over > 2,500 pieces each, to making pillows with feathers or duvet, to how to make > mattresses, carpets, fishing nets, how yo buold a lamp (mom considered that > aprt a woman’s thing, and puttign the wire through it a guy’s thing where then > I can do nice useless lamps:)), to even elarning how to mend socks > and..stockings. I forgot the latter if soemwhere in a box is stillan old > antique crochet made just for the purpose of mending a run in real silk > stockings, mppft:)

I knitted a jumper once. And made a kind of Elizabethan frock out of some old curtains when I was incredibly sick with a fluey cold – I don’t know why I did it or how I did it – mostly using a hand cranked sewing machine and hand sewing. I still wear it to this day [although not this very moment].

Response:

> Sklenge writes: >> Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >> Typing on an old Imperial typewriter breaks your nails.

Pix now available! http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sklenge/album?.dir=/44d0 > I had an old model that already was an antique way then, soemthign like > the first commercial typewriters….Can;t rememebr the  name  but woudl > you name it I;d know it;-).

Remington? > Those you had really hammer the keys in about 5 inches before the lil > character hammers woudl touch the paper:) > That woudl make them jamm woud you type too fast… > But it was on one of those I used to type 150 words per minute:) > I did my uni essays on that old thing:) > Someoen threw it out a window one day, from a third floor aparment, as he > was tired of the hammering sound on his hedache. Was his machine anyway, > his loss. The machine as an antoque was already worth a few thousands at > the time.

I’m amazed it was worth that much. I picked up my Remington for

Question:

I will be applying for a purchasing position in my company soon. Though no college degree is required, it was suggested that coursework in cost accounting would be helpful. I have 18 years of retail experience and have a good understanding of how a business works. What type of classes should I take to prepare for this? I assume cost accounting is somewhat more intense than bookkeeping. Is this something I can learn without prerequisite accounting classes?

Response:

I will be applying for a purchasing position in my company soon. Though no college degree is required, it was suggested that coursework in cost accounting would be helpful. I have 18 years of retail experience and have a good understanding of how a business works. What type of classes should I take to prepare for this? I assume cost accounting is somewhat more intense than bookkeeping. Is this something I can learn without prerequisite accounting classes?

Hi RJ, Career-wise, I did the same thing you’re about to do, and it was a great move. I really think that Accounting I and II  are worthwhile and invaluable investments. I was actually doing the job while taking the classes, and it was wonderful to suddenly make sense of all the terms I was using. If you have any self-discipline, you can hit the library and start doing exercises in the accounting books there. Good luck with your interview! A

Response:

What type of classes should you take for cost accounting? Well, Cost Accounting would be a start! Visit the nearest library and the nearest book store and look at some books on the subject to see if you think you could learn from books without taking classes.  There are also a few Internet websites, but I think you’ll find more material in books.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be applying for a purchasing position in my company soon. Though no college degree is required, it was suggested that coursework in cost accounting would be helpful. I have 18 years of retail experience and have a good understanding of how a business works. What type of classes should I take to prepare for this? I assume cost accounting is somewhat more intense than bookkeeping. Is this something I can learn without prerequisite accounting classes?

Response:

Hi Rj, mmm, cost accounting is a heavy one in theory courses Another name for it is management accounting,  also look up activity based costing it is a more modern way to make decisions re cost of production This will take a while if doing courses with exams, as already said, it is part of accounting courses Good luck Peter Australia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What type of classes should you take for cost accounting? Well, Cost Accounting would be a start! Visit the nearest library and the nearest book store and look at some books on the subject to see if you think you could learn from books without taking classes.  There are also a few Internet websites, but I think you’ll find more material in books. I will be applying for a purchasing position in my company soon. Though no college degree is required, it was suggested that coursework in cost accounting would be helpful. I have 18 years of retail experience and have a good understanding of how a business works. What type of classes should I take to prepare for this? I assume cost accounting is somewhat more intense than bookkeeping. Is this something I can learn without prerequisite accounting classes?

Response:

You’ll probably need to take accounting I & II before you can take cost accounting.  Cost is a fun course, especially after you take a couple of principles classes.  I used this book in my cost accounting class: http://www.swcollege.com/acct/hansen/cost_4e/hansen.html If you visit this site, there are a couple of sample chapters you can look at and see if you are interested in it. ABC (activity based costing) is very important part of this course.  You would probably benefit a lot from taking one. Brad

I will be applying for a purchasing position in my company soon. Though no college degree is required, it was suggested that coursework in cost accounting would be helpful. I have 18 years of retail experience and have a good understanding of how a business works. What type of classes should I take to prepare for this? I assume cost accounting is somewhat more intense than bookkeeping. Is this something I can learn without prerequisite accounting classes?

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

You’ll probably need to take accounting I & II before you can take cost accounting.  Cost is a fun course, especially after you take a couple of principles classes.  I used this book in my cost accounting class: http://www.swcollege.com/acct/hansen/cost_4e/hansen.html If you visit this site, there are a couple of sample chapters you can look at and see if you are interested in it.

I bought another book  by these people on Half.com for $5.00 (plus shipping,) and it was money well spent. A – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ABC (activity based costing) is very important part of this course.  You would probably benefit a lot from taking one. Brad I will be applying for a purchasing position in my company soon. Though no college degree is required, it was suggested that coursework in cost accounting would be helpful. I have 18 years of retail experience and have a good understanding of how a business works. What type of classes should I take to prepare for this? I assume cost accounting is somewhat more intense than bookkeeping. Is this something I can learn without prerequisite accounting classes? — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Question:

OK,OK she can have the toaster. It’s just that she had all the furniture, I am sitting in am empty (mostly) house with all the old reject furniture she didn’t want and daMn little of that. Sigh almosy like being in college again, but older and wiser than that time

Try to look at it as "liberating".   I had to start over with not much of anything either.   I learned to dumpster-dive, and actually got some stuff that wasn’t too bad (from quick evictions in the apartment building).

Response:

In your particular case I might suggest a slip and oops near the door resulting in it’s unfortunate future inability to lock…. It’s your stuff too… she’s got no right to lock everything up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My soon-to-be-ex spouse has proceeded to lock up nearly every item in the house – locked in her room & she has the only key.  Also taking all gifts she gave me in 17 1/2 years (locked up too). Even locked up all the towels so I had go and buy one for myself.  Locked up TV also so no TV in house. I consider myself "separated" because of the goings on. Perhaps not physically separated (just address sharing) but emotionally separated. I still fee for her but I can not continue this way and know that the end will come – its inevitable. I like your "fresh canvas" outlook and will remember it – Thanks! — Well she finally moved out. Didn’t want  to give me the keys "ggod luck getting the locks rekeyed. Went to ACE haedware, got in through the dog door. Changed the locks in 15 minutes and $15.00 and was back home. She took just about everything, hers, mine and the joint. Left me with 2 of the dogs (the best 2  I think, the shepherd and the terror,er terrier ). Well it is worth it, I can start over again. Appt to see the lawyer, all of the community property will be accounted for, as well as the equity loan on the house(all of three months and she spent almost $6, 000. with no accounting for it.) Was really depressed, the house as so empty, then had a mind change; the house was actually a blank canvas, a chance to  start over again; but i would still like my toaster back. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

but i would still like my toaster back.

Toasters are cheap enough.

Response:

My soon-to-be-ex spouse has proceeded to lock up nearly every item in the house – locked in her room & she has the only key.  Also taking all gifts she gave me in 17 1/2 years (locked up too). Even locked up all the towels so I had go and buy one for myself.  Locked up TV also so no TV in house.  I consider myself "separated" because of the goings on. Perhaps not physically separated (just address sharing) but emotionally separated. I still fee for her but I can not continue this way and know that the end will come – its inevitable. I like your "fresh canvas" outlook and will remember it – Thanks! —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well she finally moved out. Didn’t want  to give me the keys "ggod luck getting the locks rekeyed. Went to ACE haedware, got in through the dog door. Changed the locks in 15 minutes and $15.00 and was back home. She took just about everything, hers, mine and the joint. Left me with 2 of the dogs (the best 2  I think, the shepherd and the terror,er terrier ). Well it is worth it, I can start over again. Appt to see the lawyer, all of the community property will be accounted for, as well as the equity loan on the house(all of three months and she spent almost $6, 000. with no accounting for it.) Was really depressed, the house as so empty, then had a mind change; the house was actually a blank canvas, a chance to  start over again; but i would still like my toaster back. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not go over to her place and get *your* stuff.  If you need to, take a friend. Well she finally moved out. Didn’t want  to give me the keys "ggod luck getting the locks rekeyed. Went to ACE haedware, got in through the dog door. Changed the locks in 15 minutes and $15.00 and was back home. She took just about everything, hers, mine and the joint. Left me with 2 of the dogs (the best 2  I think, the shepherd and the terror,er terrier ). Well it is worth it, I can start over again. Appt to see the lawyer, all of the community property will be accounted for, as well as the equity loan on the house(all of three months and she spent almost $6, 000. with no accounting for it.) Was really depressed, the house as so empty, then had a mind change; the house was actually a blank canvas, a chance to  start over again; but i would still like my toaster back. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Moved, no forwarding —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

but i would still like my toaster back. Toasters are cheap enough.

That’s not the point, it was mine., she took almost everything else. Goddamit I want a small victory in all this —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Is there any way for you to find out where she moved (so you can get your personal stuff)?  I bet there is, if you look into it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not go over to her place and get *your* stuff.  If you need to, take a friend. Well she finally moved out. Didn’t want  to give me the keys "ggod luck getting the locks rekeyed. Went to ACE haedware, got in through the dog door. Changed the locks in 15 minutes and $15.00 and was back home. She took just about everything, hers, mine and the joint. Left me with 2 of the dogs (the best 2  I think, the shepherd and the terror,er terrier ). Well it is worth it, I can start over again. Appt to see the lawyer, all of the community property will be accounted for, as well as the equity loan on the house(all of three months and she spent almost $6, 000. with no accounting for it.) Was really depressed, the house as so empty, then had a mind change; the house was actually a blank canvas, a chance to  start over again; but i would still like my toaster back. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– Moved, no forwarding —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

but i would still like my toaster back. Toasters are cheap enough. That’s not the point, it was mine., she took almost everything else. Goddamit I want a small victory in all this

Sometimes that old piece of advice, "Choose your battles" has to come into play.

Response:

but i would still like my toaster back. Toasters are cheap enough. That’s not the point, it was mine., she took almost everything else. Goddamit I want a small victory in all this Sometimes that old piece of advice, "Choose your battles" has to come into play.

I always heard it was "chose your battles wisely". Lots of truth to it. A "small" victory? Let’s see, you’ve had the toaster how many years? Depreciate 1/5th per year. Take the current value verses replacement cost and figure it’s just another item to have toast when you want.  On the other hand, it’s an older model heavely used and it now tends to hold the toast and not pop up. Your ex has to deal with it. One morning she tries to use a knife to remove the toast and forgets to unplug it. After she picks herself off the floor she immediately goes to the phone and calls you to come get the "toaster from hell" out of her house. I took the preceeding from a "small" victory with an exgf. Yes, she was a blonde. As long as you keep your head up and be patient you’ll have better then a "small" victory. Just wait till she’s the one that has to pay a mechanic. LOL Mr.bill

Response:

I took the preceeding from a "small" victory with an exgf. Yes, she was a blonde.

Hey!  I resemble that remark!  :-)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not go over to her place and get *your* stuff.  If you need to, take a friend. Well she finally moved out. Didn’t want  to give me the keys "ggod luck getting the locks rekeyed. Went to ACE haedware, got in through the dog door. Changed the locks in 15 minutes and $15.00 and was back home. She took just about everything, hers, mine and the joint. Left me with 2 of the dogs (the best 2  I think, the shepherd and the terror,er terrier ). Well it is worth it, I can start over again. Appt to see the lawyer, all of the community property will be accounted for, as well as the equity loan on the house(all of three months and she spent almost $6, 000. with no accounting for it.) Was really depressed, the house as so empty, then had a mind change; the house was actually a blank canvas, a chance to  start over again; but i would still like my toaster back. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– Moved, no forwarding —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

OK,OK she can have the toaster. It’s just that she had all the furniture, I am sitting in am empty (mostly) house with all the old reject furniture she didn’t want and daMn little of that. Sigh almosy like being in college again, but older and wiser than that time —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Well she finally moved out. Didn’t want  to give me the keys "ggod luck getting the locks rekeyed. Went to ACE haedware, got in through the dog door. Changed the locks in 15 minutes and $15.00 and was back home. She took just about everything, hers, mine and the joint. Left me with 2 of the dogs (the best 2  I think, the shepherd and the terror,er terrier ). Well it is worth it, I can start over again. Appt to see the lawyer, all of the community property will be accounted for, as well as the equity loan on the house(all of three months and she spent almost $6, 000. with no accounting for it.) Was really depressed, the house as so empty, then had a mind change; the house was actually a blank canvas, a chance to  start over again; but i would still like my toaster back. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Why not go over to her place and get *your* stuff.  If you need to, take a friend. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well she finally moved out. Didn’t want  to give me the keys "ggod luck getting the locks rekeyed. Went to ACE haedware, got in through the dog door. Changed the locks in 15 minutes and $15.00 and was back home. She took just about everything, hers, mine and the joint. Left me with 2 of the dogs (the best 2  I think, the shepherd and the terror,er terrier ). Well it is worth it, I can start over again. Appt to see the lawyer, all of the community property will be accounted for, as well as the equity loan on the house(all of three months and she spent almost $6, 000. with no accounting for it.) Was really depressed, the house as so empty, then had a mind change; the house was actually a blank canvas, a chance to  start over again; but i would still like my toaster back. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

I need a program that can compute loans on a pay anyday type scenerio. We will have about 200 accounts receivable clients paying different rates and on different days. Would be nice to print out a list of delinquents by 30/60/90 past due. Thanks

Response:

Would be willing to work with you on this.  I’ve been doing financial software for about 18 years. Bill Couture

Response:

Try the following: http://www.compu-share.com/LoanWatch/ I know these guys personally and they have fantastic products, including the best general purpose mid-large business accounting software. Their loanwatch product tries to encompass all note and mortgage needs and they are very receptive to suggestions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need a program that can compute loans on a pay anyday type scenerio. We will have about 200 accounts receivable clients paying different rates and on different days. Would be nice to print out a list of delinquents by 30/60/90 past due. Thanks

Response:

Question:

Do they hire bachelors in accounting majors or do you have to have a master’s in accounting/tax, and be eligible to sit for the CPA?  How much do they pay?  $35K-$45K????  Are they sweatshops?  40-50 hours a week possible? Does the work suck?  Well, of course it does, it’s accounting!!!!!  But there is always a degree of suckiness.  Some accounting work *gasp* isn’t so bad. — Oscar

Response:

You would be better to keep searching for a different career.  One that suits you.  Don’t try to fit yourself into accounting.  Accounting has to fit you first. thanks Pam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do they hire bachelors in accounting majors or do you have to have a master’s in accounting/tax, and be eligible to sit for the CPA?  How much do they pay?  $35K-$45K????  Are they sweatshops?  40-50 hours a week possible? Does the work suck?  Well, of course it does, it’s accounting!!!!!  But there is always a degree of suckiness.  Some accounting work *gasp* isn’t so bad. — Oscar

Response:

Today, Big5 is much more than accounting, try programming for a change and you may be more in demand than a plain vanilla CPA. Once you start looking beyond the numbers the profession will be more appealing to you. Think investment banking and management consulting, but those are very competitive areas, and you will be competing against thousands of others to get in (CPAs and MBAs). Big 5 won’t guarantee it but it will give a chance, and you will pay your dues learning the business. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

..at the college where I teach, near NYC, we are having a heated debate over which of these programs is used more in business and therefore which is the most beneficial to teach..would appreciate ANY imput…thanks

The "best program" is a matter of personal preference and features needed for a particular  job. However, depending on your definition, small businesses outnumber big businesses by 50 to 1. Here is part of the uncontested testimony in the Microsoft anti-trust case on January 12, 1999.         Quicken’s market share was 80 – 85%.  It was has         not been below 70% since 1991, despite Microsoft         competition. QuickBooks has more than 84% of retail         revenue. TurboTax has 80% of that market. There also are 23 international versions of QuickBooks. http://www.intuit.com/int-international/. By the way, the new TurboTax web program is free to the 43% of all returns with less than $20,000 of income. http://www.intuit.com/corporate/press_releases/012099.html       Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.                  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester QB add-ons/seminars http://www.blocktax.com        Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

Response:

By the way, the new TurboTax web program is free to the 43% of all returns with less than $20,000 of income. http://www.intuit.com/corporate/press_releases/012099.html

Yes and no. You must pay for the service, first, then get a rebate equivalent to the cost after 6-8 weeks. The ads and info do not state this clearly up front. You find it on the website by wading through the fine print, or at the end, when it demands payment to file (unless they’ve changed in the past day or two). Gives Intuit the use of your $9.95 for 1-2 months. Not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but multiply by the 43% of people eligible to use, and it quickly adds up to a nice piece of change. Kevin Shumaker Former QB Tech Support (Core & Printing Specialist) Freelance QB Tech Support System Orientation

Response:

I have dabbled in bookkeeping for the past year or so and most all small businesses seem to be using quickbooks.  This is what I am most familiar with and seems most user friendly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..at the college where I teach, near NYC, we are having a heated debate over which of these programs is used more in business and therefore which is the most beneficial to teach..would appreciate ANY imput…thanks

Response:

There also are 23 international versions of QuickBooks. http://www.intuit.com/int-international/.

That’s not true, the Japanese accounting software isn’t Quickbooks; it isn’t even called Quickbooks.  It is impossible to port Quickbooks to Japanese because it isn’t Win32, unicode. When it becomes Win32, and runs Unicode instead of 16-bit assembler routines, you’ll notice. There are thousands of foreign companies selling products in Japan, and the most common way is that the US company is approached by a Japanese company with some kind of marketing and distribution wraparound like that. They usually mush together their images in Japan and the J/ company gets the prestige of an international product mix, and the margins on any Quickbooks sold in Japan. Living in Japan 14 years I personally saw *almost every product I ever used*, wrapped up in a Japanese distrib. arrangement like that, sooner or later. The main impact was it immediatly doubled in price and you couuldn’t get it by mailorder any more…. Note that foreign companies who come in, rent an office and try to sell it themselves never get anyplace. I guarantee you. It never happens, unless you have literally hundreds of millions, and stamina to continue at least a generation   -yes.    20-30 years. Todd Boyle

Response:

    I’m a CPA and I do a lot of software installations for my small business clients.  I have done a lot of work with clients who use Peachtree, as well as  clients who use QuickBooks.  For small businesses, both programs can do a fine job.  I do find that people with more of a formal accounting education do better with Peachtree, and those who are not as well versed in accounting do better with QuickBooks.  For a person starting a small business who lacks a background in accounting, go with QuickBooks.  If you are fortunate enough to have a bookkeeper or an accountant with an associates degree or more in accounting doing your books, then use Peachtree. Incidentally, I get much better support whenever I have to call with questions to QuickBooks (Intuit), than I do with Peachtree.     If you are trying to decide which program to incorporate into your ciriculum, I would grudgingly say Peachtree, even though there are many more users of QuickBooks out there.  Ideally, you could offer both.

Response:

Actually, in my opinion, Peachtree is just as user friendly and has more useful features, especially as regards inventory and Cost of Sales. R. Rothenberg & Associates Consultants to Management Union, NJ 07083 Phone (908) 810-0256 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/rentacontroller/ I have dabbled in bookkeeping for the past year or so and most all small businesses seem to be using quickbooks.  This is what I am most familiar with and seems most user friendly. ..at the college where I teach, near NYC, we are having a heated debate over which of these programs is used more in business and therefore which is the most beneficial to teach..would appreciate ANY imput…thanks

R. Rothenberg & Associates Consultants to Management Union, NJ 07083 Phone (908) 810-0256 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/rentacontroller/

Response:

The why does 85% or so use QuickBooks? Thanks, Steve Bookkeeping 2000 Member:  American Institute of Professional Bookkeepers Member:  QuickBooks Professional Advisors Program 1191 Huntington Drive, Suite 9, Duarte, CA 91010 Tel:  (626) 935 – 3375 Fax:  (626) 301 – 9935 Quick Books 99 Information: http://pages.prodigy.net/bookkeeping/qbp992/index.html Quick Books Professional Advisor in Your Area: http://qbpaweb.intuit.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, in my opinion, Peachtree is just as user friendly and has more useful features, especially as regards inventory and Cost of Sales. R. Rothenberg & Associates Consultants to Management Union, NJ 07083 Phone (908) 810-0256 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/rentacontroller/

Response:

Steve, I can not be definitive but I would guess that it is a combination of: More and better advertising & promotion Relationship to other of their products Probably on the market longer Better distribution Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The why does 85% or so use QuickBooks? Thanks, Steve Bookkeeping 2000 Member:  American Institute of Professional Bookkeepers Member:  QuickBooks Professional Advisors Program 1191 Huntington Drive, Suite 9, Duarte, CA 91010 Tel:  (626) 935 – 3375 Fax:  (626) 301 – 9935 Quick Books 99 Information: http://pages.prodigy.net/bookkeeping/qbp992/index.html Quick Books Professional Advisor in Your Area: http://qbpaweb.intuit.com/ Actually, in my opinion, Peachtree is just as user friendly and has more useful features, especially as regards inventory and Cost of Sales. R. Rothenberg & Associates Consultants to Management Union, NJ 07083 Phone (908) 810-0256 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/rentacontroller/

R. Rothenberg & Associates Consultants to Management Union, NJ 07083 Phone (908) 810-0256 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/rentacontroller/

Response:

..at the college where I teach, near NYC, we are having a heated debate over which of these programs is used more in business and therefore which is the most beneficial to teach..would appreciate ANY imput…thanks

Response:

I believe that QB is more widely used but from my own personal experiences Peachtree is the better application, especially if you have inventory which must be to Cost of Sales at the time of billing a customer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -..at the college where I teach, near NYC, we are having a heated debate over which of these programs is used more in business and therefore which is the most beneficial to teach..would appreciate ANY imput…thanks

Response:

I think it depends on what you are looking for, what is your accounting and computer knowledge and your experience with the programs. I think most users agree with the following 5 points: 1.  QuickBooks is easy to use and setup. 2.  Peachtree has better checks and balances that accountants would like. 3.  Over 80% of the users use QuickBooks. 4.  Peachtree offers more for Mfg.. Companies. 5.  Peachtree is hard to install. I have used Peachtree 3.0 many years ago and it was more trouble it is worth, unless you are a computer/software expert. About 7 months ago I got a letter from Peachtree, telling me how great it was, offering 3 for 1 pricing.  the interface with Microsoft Office sounded great.  So I tried it and found lots of problems. QuickBooks has some problems, mostly due to importing, on-line upgrades and some minor program errors. So I am sold on QuickBooks, it is so easy to use and customize.  I require all clients to use it and I am a member of QuickBooks Professional Advisors Program. Thanks, Steve Bookkeeping 2000 Member:  American Institute of Professional Bookkeepers Member:  QuickBooks Professional Advisors Program 1191 Huntington Drive, Suite 9, Duarte, CA 91010 Tel:  (626) 935 – 3375 Fax:  (626) 301 – 9935 Quick Books 99 Information: http://pages.prodigy.net/bookkeeping/qbp992/index.html Quick Books Professional Advisor in Your Area: http://qbpaweb.intuit.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..at the college where I teach, near NYC, we are having a heated debate over which of these programs is used more in business and therefore which is the most beneficial to teach..would appreciate ANY imput…thanks

Response:

Question:

welcome to alt.accounting.do.my.homework

Yeah, they are not even smart enough to re-phrase it so that it doesn’t sound like it comes straight out of a textbook!!! John

Response:

LOL, how do students expect to learn anything unless they use their own brain? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – welcome to alt.accounting.do.my.homework Hi, I need help with following: a) Describe any difficulties in claculating the actual cost of material and labour inccured  in the manufacture of the items that consumers purchase. b) Demonstrate how the significance of these cost elements will vary from product to product c) Indicate how accurate the costs are likely to be, and whether they could have any relevance to the price you pay for them d) Create simple numerical examples to support your point of view If anybody can help, please write Thank you!

Response:

Hi, I need help with following: a) Describe any difficulties in claculating the actual cost of material and labour inccured  in the manufacture of the items that consumers purchase. b) Demonstrate how the significance of these cost elements will vary from product to product c) Indicate how accurate the costs are likely to be, and whether they could have any relevance to the price you pay for them d) Create simple numerical examples to support your point of view If anybody can help, please write Thank you!

Response:

welcome to alt.accounting.do.my.homework – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I need help with following: a) Describe any difficulties in claculating the actual cost of material and labour inccured  in the manufacture of the items that consumers purchase. b) Demonstrate how the significance of these cost elements will vary from product to product c) Indicate how accurate the costs are likely to be, and whether they could have any relevance to the price you pay for them d) Create simple numerical examples to support your point of view If anybody can help, please write Thank you!

Response:

Question:

Three lawyers and three accountants were about to board a train. The accountants watched in awe as the three lawyers bought only a single ticket amongst them.  The accountants queried the lawyers on how they intended to pull this off and were advised to wait and watch. On boarding the train the three lawyers shoehorned themselves into the washroom and when the conductor collecting tickets knocked on the door passed their single ticket under the bottom. Much wiser on the return trip the accountants bought a single ticket and were again left in awe as the lawyers boarded the train with no ticket all. Again their queries were answered with the advice to wait and watch. The three accountants squeezed themselves into the washroom and the lawyers did the same in the washroom across the hall.  When the accountants had closed and locked their door  one lawyer slipped out of his washroom and knocked on the accountant’s door asking "tickets please". If you are planning a fight in court listen to your lawyer not your accountant.  If you plan a fight with the IRS you are nuts.

Response:

We have been dealing with this exact subject for about a year now on the 206 we bought between two of us (intending to get 4 owner long term).  We have learned a lot in the past year.  A few of the things we have learned are: 1) The only way to avoid liability in an airplane ownership is to not own one.  Period.  It is a risk you take when you purchase the plane whether it be alone or with other owners (I am particularly avoiding the word partners).

But you can manage the liability and reduce your exposure by taking some prudent steps. 2) The idea of a corporation may provide some protection (that is in debate between every lawyer I speak with), but not complete.  As an owner, did you ever turn a wrench on the aircraft. Change the oil, the spark plugs, fill a tire.  Guess what you can now be held liable.  Did you ever make a decision about maintenance (then carried out by you A&P), guess what, you are now liable.  An attorney is going to find a way to get to every pocket he/she can.

An attorney, representing the plaintiff, will of course look for any person or entity that has exposure because of ownership, negligence or legal fault.  That does not mean that everyone connected with the ownership of the plane has to stumble along with the anticipation of being named as defendant in every suit that might be brought. 3) The main reason the corporation may not protect you is that the corporation may not be valid.  One thing we learned big time is that what an attorney believes is a valid corporation, may be so from a legal sense.  All the papers are filed, you keep all the proper legal records, hold shareholders meetings, etc..  That all means absolutely nothing to an accountant.  To an accountant, the corporation has to have a "profit motive" for it to be valid.  That is not to say that you have to turn a profit, you just have to have a profit motive, and it must be valid.  It is very clear when a corp is just there for a group of individuals to have a hobby around.  Once the accounting world (and the IRS) invalidate your corp, you don’t have the protection of it.  

That is totally incorrect.  Neither an accountant nor the IRS can invalidate a corporation.  They can deny certain favorable tax treatments because of a non-profit operation, but that will not invalidate the corporation. We are yet to find an aviation-lawyer-accountant who can put this all together and find a way to do it well.  If you can create a valid "profit motive", and have it hold up, then you have a chance at keeping the corp alive in the event of a law suit.  Ultimately, I still want to find a lawyer/accountant that has actually defended someone in this situation and WON.  Then we can all learn how it worked in at least one instance.  Until then, all ideas are pure speculation.

You aren’t going to find such an attorney, because you are starting from a premise that is incorrect.  A validly formed corporation is just that, a corporation. 4) Someone commented on insurance companies not paying if one of the owners is drunk when they bend the plane.  Most good insurance companies will not deny coverage if a FAR is broken.  They will pay out to the corp.  But then they may subrogate to the individual that was negligent. If you insurance will deny payment to the corp because one of the owners broke a FAR, get rid of the insurance.  

An insurance company can deny coverage to the OWNER of the plane, for property damage or to the PILOT of the plane for injury or death because of the violation of the FARs, they cannot deny coverage to another party that is neither an owner or operator. If you bend a plane, it is very rare that you did not break a FAR somewhere along the line.  The only question is one of negligence or not.  This is question I ask of every prospective insurance carrier. Please don’t flame me if you dissagree with the above info.   All I am doing is giving the net the benefit of what we have learned through numerous lawyers and accountants.

 I would suggest you ask some more questions and seek out some other parties to ask.  I don’t think the information you have been given is correct, or perhaps it was but you misunderstood what was said. In eithre case, I would not proceed under the beliefs that you have. Wes

Response:

Does incorporation mean that, other than the personal liability of the pilot, who may be at fault (ie. whoever was operating the airplane at the time of the incident and whose actions may be judged causative), only the assets of the corporation can be attached? The personal assets of the other partners are protected……unless, I suppose, they could be judged personally negligent in some way?

A corporation is a creature of the State. It is formed by statute and as long as it is validly created, it is a separate person in the eyes of the law.  The corporation has assets and those assets are available to satisfy any judgment that might be granted against the corporation.  An individual shareholder or director of the corporation has no more personal liability for actions of the corporation than you would have as a shareholder of Ford if there was a judgment entered against Ford for a faulty car design. How well do such corporations stand up in court? A previous posting said that in court any such corporation could be picked apart if the corporation did not have a profit motive (I guess by that it meant: if the corporation was established just to avoid liability.),

There are a variety of reasons for formation of a corporation: Perpetual life, ease of transfer of ownership, tax savings, LIMITED LIABILITY OF THE SHAREHOLDERS, etc.  There is absolutely nothing that requires a corporation to be formed for a profit motive, except perhaps the ability to deduct certain expenses of the corporation on your tax return. members could be held personally liable if it could be established that they had had anything to do with maintenance of the aircraft, etc.

That is a very gray area.  What maintenance did they do?  Was that maintenance that was required to be performed by an A/P or was it simply preventive maintenance?  Was the maintenance or lack thereof the contributing factor in the claim?  As a general rule, no, the partner working on the plain and doing preventive maintenance would not lose the protection of the corporation.  That presumes, however, that certain factors don’t enter into the equation.  If the partner were to, for instance, change oil and forget to wire the filter on, put it on incorrectly and then leave it for the next person to use… and that next person failed to do a per-flight…. well, you get the idea, but it would still fall on the corporation and the individual who was PIC. Wes

Response:

Larry, as both an airplane owner and an attorney, I can give you the following advise, which is the same that I give clients in my office, and exactly the same advise that I take and use myself. 1. The only, repeat ONLY way to avoid personal liability for the acts of another is to have the plane owned by a corporation.  Corporate ownership protects the shareholders and directors from personal liability except in very specific cases in which they have actual involvment in the claim, such as piloting the plane or as a director allowing a clearly intoxicated person to operate the corporate plane. — contd. —-

Wes – You have been generous with your expertrise. Let me have another freebie: Does incorporation mean that, other than the personal liability of the pilot, who may be at fault (ie. whoever was operating the airplane at the time of the incident and whose actions may be judged causative), only the assets of the corporation can be attached? The personal assets of the other partners are protected……unless, I suppose, they could be judged personally negligent in some way? How well do such corporations stand up in court? A previous posting said that in court any such corporation could be picked apart if the corporation did not have a profit motive (I guess by that it meant: if the corporation was established just to avoid liability.), and other members could be held personally liable if it could be established that they had had anything to do with maintenance of the aircraft, etc. OK, That was TWO questions. I’ll try not to abuse your professional generosity. Joiner Cartwright, Jr. Houston, Texas

Response:

We have been dealing with this exact subject for about a year now on the 206 we bought between two of us (intending to get 4 owner long term).  We have learned a lot in the past year.  A few of the things we have learned are: 1) The only way to avoid liability in an airplane ownership is to not own one.  Period.  It is a risk you take when you purchase the plane whether it be alone or with other owners (I am particularly avoiding the word partners). 2) The idea of a corporation may provide some protection (that is in debate between every lawyer I speak with), but not complete.  As an owner, did you ever turn a wrench on the aircraft. Change the oil, the spark plugs, fill a tire.  Guess what you can now be held liable.  Did you ever make a decision about maintenance (then carried out by you A&P), guess what, you are now liable.  An attorney is going to find a way to get to every pocket he/she can. 3) The main reason the corporation may not protect you is that the corporation may not be valid.  One thing we learned big time is that what an attorney believes is a valid corporation, may be so from a legal sense.  All the papers are filed, you keep all the proper legal records, hold shareholders meetings, etc..  That all means absolutely nothing to an accountant.  To an accountant, the corporation has to have a "profit motive" for it to be valid.  That is not to say that you have to turn a profit, you just have to have a profit motive, and it must be valid.  It is very clear when a corp is just there for a group of individuals to have a hobby around.  Once the accounting world (and the IRS) invalidate your corp, you don’t have the protection of it.  We are yet to find an aviation-lawyer-accountant who can put this all together and find a way to do it well.  If you can create a valid "profit motive", and have it hold up, then you have a chance at keeping the corp alive in the event of a law suit.  Ultimately, I still want to find a lawyer/accountant that has actually defended someone in this situation and WON.  Then we can all learn how it worked in at least one instance.  Until then, all ideas are pure speculation.   4) Someone commented on insurance companies not paying if one of the owners is drunk when they bend the plane.  Most good insurance companies will not deny coverage if a FAR is broken.  They will pay out to the corp.  But then they may subrogate to the individual that was negligent. If you insurance will deny payment to the corp because one of the owners broke a FAR, get rid of the insurance.  If you bend a plane, it is very rare that you did not break a FAR somewhere along the line.  The only question is one of negligence or not.  This is question I ask of every prospective insurance carrier. Please don’t flame me if you dissagree with the above info.   All I am doing is giving the net the benefit of what we have learned through numerous lawyers and accountants. Regards, Joel Larner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California.  Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

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Well, IANAL, but when I bought into my current airplane partnership, the original owner of the plane and I visited a local lawyer (NY state) to check into a corporation of some sort.  He convinced us that this wasn’t a great advantage and probably not worth the initial cost and ongoing paperwork to keep it a recognized corporation.  I was concerned about getting sued and losing my home, investments, etc.  According to this lawyer, all of the assets of significance that I have are immune from a judgement.  

I would strongly dispute that position. He said that my 401K and pension are untouchable for some reason that I can’t now recall, and my home is untouchable since I own it jointly with my wife.  

The 401K and Pension are protected under the Insurance Law, but once you start to draw the income from them, the income stream can be reached to satisfy a judgement, and if you make a large contribution to try and shield your assets, that can be overturned. As to the house, that is dead wrong.  A filed judgment will attach to any piece of real estate that you might own.  While they can’t make you sell it to satisfy the judgment under CPLR Sec. 5206, the judgment will attach and will remain for 10 years, and can be extended for an additional 10 years by filing a simple form.  When the house is sold, they get paid before anyone else. All that was at risk was the plane iself, but only if they could show that both me and my partner were liable for whatever had happened, and my truck which is in my name alone.

If you own the plane and the plane goes down, you are going to get sued, either by the estate of your partner, the injured passenger or his estate, the injured person on the ground or his estate, or even your partner if he survives.  Win, lose or draw, you are going to be taught a very expensive lesson. Any attorneys out there familiar with NY state law who wish to support or dispute this advice?  I’m certainly hoping it was correct!

You might want to contact an aviation lawyer in New York and run that past him, or her.  I am both a pilot and an attorney and a member of the Lawyers-Pilots Bar Association and was a member of the AOPA pre-paid legal panel and the advice you  received is not, IMHO, correct. Wes

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Larry, as both an airplane owner and an attorney, I can give you the following advise, which is the same that I give clients in my office, and exactly the same advise that I take and use myself. 1. The only, repeat ONLY way to avoid personal liability for the acts of another is to have the plane owned by a corporation.  Corporate ownership protects the shareholders and directors from personal liability except in very specific cases in which they have actual involvment in the claim, such as piloting the plane or as a director allowing a clearly intoxicated person to operate the corporate plane. 2. Corporations can be formed in any state.  Each state has it’s own rules and regulations and tax laws.  The physical location of the assets of the corporation are not important, you can incorporate in any state. 3. Delaware is the most friendly in terms of "Corporate presence" in that they have no taxes and minor fees.  A Delaware corporation will shield you from liability and help you avoid taxes on the purchase of the plane.  Now, there are states that attempt to tax the plane because it is based on an airport in that state.  As far as I can tell, there is no authority to tax the assets of a corporation simply because they are based in that state.  They can, of course, tax the corporation for business activities carried on in that state, but otherwise, I would fight like a scalded cat to avoid paying taxes simply because the plane is based there. 4. I would suggest you do the following:         a. Form a Delaware Corporation through one of the service companies in Delaware.  My experience with the Delaware Registry has not been good in that they don’t follow through on their responsibilities to the corporation.  I much perfer the people at Delaware Intercorp.  They have a webpage at: http://www.delawareintercorp.com.  You can form the corporation without the aid of an attorney.         b. I would limit the number of shares to the number of partners that you intend to have, at the maximum.  If you plan on having no more than 4, then order the corporation with 4 shares, or 5 if you want.  If you have no additional shares available, you can always tell a potential partner that they can’t get in, or amend and add more shares if you change your mind.         c. Have your attorney draft up a shareholders agreement, and make it part of the corporate minutes and by-laws.  You can, then, take care of such things as how you handle someone who wants out, what to do in the event of a dispute, what to do if one of the partners dies, or one of the real biggies, what happens if one of the partners gets a divorce. This is an important document and should be drafted by someone with aviation experience.  You can call AOPA and ask them for the name of an experience aviation attorney in your area.   Hope this helps.  Oh, and forget the insurance will protect me nonsense, it won’t and it won’t protect you from being dragged into the litigation and made to defend yourself if one of the others gets into a claim situation. Wes

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We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California.  Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability?   I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own. Insurance is your best protection against third party claims.

Yes, perhaps I’m just being paranoid, but what if the damage caused by one of the other co-owners is enormous; say s/he crash lands into a school bus full of children for example, or a building full of people. Perhaps an autopsy reveals there is was alcohol involved, which is clearly a willful violation of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  The insurance policy specifically denies coverage for willful violations of the FARs, so what are the families of the children going to do? They’re going to sue the other co-owners, especially if they happen to have deep pockets, would they not?  They would have no recourse against the insurance company.  And, if the pilot had little means, they’d look for compensation elsewhere, to wit the April 1996 crash of a Cessna Cardinal in Cheyenne, Wyo., that killed 7-year-old Jessica Dubroff: http://www.avweb.com/articles/legaleag.html . "Jessica’s surviving relatives have now sued Cessna and Avco, the companies that built them 20 years earlier — along with the pilot, the owner of the plane, and 100 "Does," or defendants to be named later." I can control my behavior, but I can’t control the behavior of my co-owners, but I’d still have to defend myself without the protection of insurance. Regarding liability amoungst co-owners. Consider an indemnification agreement, whereby each co-owner agrees to indemnify and hold the other co-owners harmless for the negligent acts of a particular co-owners

By all means.  But, would such an agreement be binding on the families of the children in the example above and prevent them from filing suit against me?   Wouldn’t a "hold harmless" agreement just preclude the co-owners from suing each other? What I’m considering is putting title to my interest in the aircraft into the name of my significant-other who has "very shallow pockets". Then getting her to sign a blank Bill of Sale, so that I can transfer title without further input from her when that time comes.  Is this realistic?  She won’t be able to encumber the aircraft without the consent of the other co-owners, so that’s not an issue.  It seems this arrangement would protect me from any suit in which I was not flying the aircraft.  Of course, I’be a named insured on the policy, so even this measure might not be sufficient to protect me from the mistakes of my co-owners. It is my understanding that a incorporating the co-ownership would not afford significant protection from a tort. Thank you for your thoughtful response. Best regards, Larry Dighera         There is no expedient to which a man will not resort         to avoid the real labor of thinking.                                                   Sir Joshua Reynolds

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We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California.  Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability?   I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

Response:

We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California.  Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability?   I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

Insurance is your best protection against third party claims. Regarding liability amoungst co-owners. Consider an indemnification agreement, whereby each co-owner agrees to indemnify and hold the other co-owners harmless for the negligent acts of a particular co-owners Regards, Phillip R. Hurwitz, Esq. Rochester NY DISCLAIMER: The above is offered for the purposes of discussion only. To pursue your matter, contact an attorney in your community. To reply, remove "123" from the reply address

Response:

We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California.  Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

Of course, each state’s laws are different.  Between during a seminar on the subject here in Michigan, several aviaiton attorneys highly recommended that you incorporate rather than form a partnership. Of course, you must maintain the corporation in all ways, such as keeping the required records, holding shareholder meetings, etc.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California.  Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own. Insurance is your best protection against third party claims. Yes, perhaps I’m just being paranoid, but what if the damage caused by one of the other co-owners is enormous; say s/he crash lands into a school bus full of children for example, or a building full of people. Perhaps an autopsy reveals there is was alcohol involved, which is clearly a willful violation of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  The insurance policy specifically denies coverage for willful violations of the FARs, so what are the families of the children going to do? They’re going to sue the other co-owners, especially if they happen to have deep pockets, would they not?  They would have no recourse against the insurance company.  And, if the pilot had little means, they’d look for compensation elsewhere, to wit the April 1996 crash of a Cessna Cardinal in Cheyenne, Wyo., that killed 7-year-old Jessica Dubroff: http://www.avweb.com/articles/legaleag.html . "Jessica’s surviving relatives have now sued Cessna and Avco, the companies that built them 20 years earlier — along with the pilot, the owner of the plane, and 100 "Does," or defendants to be named later." I can control my behavior, but I can’t control the behavior of my co-owners, but I’d still have to defend myself without the protection of insurance. Regarding liability amoungst co-owners. Consider an indemnification agreement, whereby each co-owner agrees to indemnify and hold the other co-owners harmless for the negligent acts of a particular co-owners By all means.  But, would such an agreement be binding on the families of the children in the example above and prevent them from filing suit against me?   Wouldn’t a "hold harmless" agreement just preclude the co-owners from suing each other? What I’m considering is putting title to my interest in the aircraft into the name of my significant-other who has "very shallow pockets". Then getting her to sign a blank Bill of Sale, so that I can transfer title without further input from her when that time comes.  Is this realistic?  She won’t be able to encumber the aircraft without the consent of the other co-owners, so that’s not an issue.  It seems this arrangement would protect me from any suit in which I was not flying the aircraft.  Of course, I’be a named insured on the policy, so even this measure might not be sufficient to protect me from the mistakes of my co-owners. It is my understanding that a incorporating the co-ownership would not afford significant protection from a tort.

Well, IANAL, but when I bought into my current airplane partnership, the original owner of the plane and I visited a local lawyer (NY state) to check into a corporation of some sort.  He convinced us that this wasn’t a great advantage and probably not worth the initial cost and ongoing paperwork to keep it a recognized corporation.  I was concerned about getting sued and losing my home, investments, etc.  According to this lawyer, all of the assets of significance that I have are immune from a judgement.  He said that my 401K and pension are untouchable for some reason that I can’t now recall, and my home is untouchable since I own it jointly with my wife.  All that was at risk was the plane iself, but only if they could show that both me and my partner were liable for whatever had happened, and my truck which is in my name alone. Any attorneys out there familiar with NY state law who wish to support or dispute this advice?  I’m certainly hoping it was correct! Matt

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Question:

Two questions about Computer Associates Simply Accounting for DOS: 1) Is anyone aware of what testing has been done on the software to work properly after Dec 31, 1999?  Which versions will crash and which will be OK? 2) We go through more that 1000 projects per year.  There seems to be no way to get a alphabetized PRINTOUT of the project names and numbers. (CA support confirms this.)  Does anyone know of a utility that will do this? …Brad

Response:

Two questions about Computer Associates Simply Accounting for DOS: 1) Is anyone aware of what testing has been done on the software to work properly after Dec 31, 1999?  Which versions will crash and which will be OK?

DOS will have disappeared by 1999.

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Question:

hmmmm.  I’ve been around a while, myself.  Sometimes the "new" acting is kind of "tinny," kind of "brash," and lacking in SUBSTANCE.   HUMANITY Online/Talent Online Website http://h4h.com/~talent and BBS 213-936-6009.  Helping Creative People One Person at a Time.  Seeking, Creating, Marketing & Presenting New Projects & Inventions on Radio, TV, Stage & Cyberspace.  A Non-Profit Service of the Landmark Ebony Showcase Theatre & Cultural Arts Center, Inc., est. 1950.  Writers, Visual & Performing Artists, Craftspeople, Technicians, Filmmakers, Independent Projects.  Helping kids & adults.  Books & Resources are now available. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be. , Bill Smith writes:  Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches,teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students. NOW WE GET TO LISTEN TO JEREMY’S REBUTTAL!!!! Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying. Now, if I follow this argument…. an actor should study with anybody CLAIMING that he/she represents a NEW VISION in acting…. By Jeremy’s vision, that should be someone who rejects everything that Stanislavski taught.  (Jeremy, we’ve been here before…. you’re becoming redundant…. why don’t you pose some NEW arguments?)  So…. anybody who studied with Bobby Lewis, Stella Adler (as I did) or Strasberg…. is of THE OLD SCHOOL.  TO BE CONDEMNED.  OUTLAWED (in another of Jeremy’s posts.) Stanislavski is dying, only in your opinion, Jeremy.  Lewis and Adler and dozens of others, like me, who studied with a mentor, evolve…. do you hear that, Jeremy?  It’s not static, never was.   You even admit some exposure with a Stanislavski-based coach…. and it’s clear that you have a bad experience.  EXPLAIN.  DEMONSTRATE.  What are the horrible details? Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work, Well, Jeremy, most of the actors who train with me say that my coaching is fresh, esxciting and innovative.  I guess they’re mistaken.  I’ll suggest that they move to Phildelphia. not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from. Jeremy, you have demonstrated little empathy, but a tremendous amount of ego in your posts in these last few months.  Your ego is demonstrated by you (I HOPE) facetious suggestion to BAN anything to do with Stanislasvki.  (See my earlier tongue-in-cheek post to you.) They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious. You’re rambling, Jeremy. Why don’t you drink a cup or two of coffee? I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it. Now, Jeremy, look in a mirror before you accuse me of this.  Who commercalizes his classes and books on this and other boards. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy Jeremy…. this "dialogue" has long since deserted the original post from the premed at UCLA.  And your arguments have become long-winded, illogical and full of yourself.   I’ll admit to this quirk….. when I read one of you posts announcing to a novice that Stanislavski is dead…. and you suggest that actors need to take one of Jeremy’s classes, read his books, or take an improv class…. I WILL CONTINUE to offer a different point of view.   If you want to take that personally and launch into another one your your rambling diatribes…. why not just be honest and address me, personally.   Bill

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be. , Bill Smith writes:  Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches,teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.

NOW WE GET TO LISTEN TO JEREMY’S REBUTTAL!!!! Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying.

Now, if I follow this argument…. an actor should study with anybody CLAIMING that he/she represents a NEW VISION in acting…. By Jeremy’s vision, that should be someone who rejects everything that Stanislavski taught.  (Jeremy, we’ve been here before…. you’re becoming redundant…. why don’t you pose some NEW arguments?)  So…. anybody who studied with Bobby Lewis, Stella Adler (as I did) or Strasberg…. is of THE OLD SCHOOL.  TO BE CONDEMNED.  OUTLAWED (in another of Jeremy’s posts.) Stanislavski is dying, only in your opinion, Jeremy.  Lewis and Adler and dozens of others, like me, who studied with a mentor, evolve…. do you hear that, Jeremy?  It’s not static, never was.   You even admit some exposure with a Stanislavski-based coach…. and it’s clear that you have a bad experience.  EXPLAIN.  DEMONSTRATE.  What are the horrible details? Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work,

Well, Jeremy, most of the actors who train with me say that my coaching is fresh, esxciting and innovative.  I guess they’re mistaken.  I’ll suggest that they move to Phildelphia. not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from.

Jeremy, you have demonstrated little empathy, but a tremendous amount of ego in your posts in these last few months.  Your ego is demonstrated by you (I HOPE) facetious suggestion to BAN anything to do with Stanislasvki.  (See my earlier tongue-in-cheek post to you.) They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious.

You’re rambling, Jeremy. Why don’t you drink a cup or two of coffee? I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it.

Now, Jeremy, look in a mirror before you accuse me of this.  Who commercalizes his classes and books on this and other boards. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy

Jeremy…. this "dialogue" has long since deserted the original post from the premed at UCLA.  And your arguments have become long-winded, illogical and full of yourself.   I’ll admit to this quirk….. when I read one of you posts announcing to a novice that Stanislavski is dead…. and you suggest that actors need to take one of Jeremy’s classes, read his books, or take an improv class…. I WILL CONTINUE to offer a different point of view.   If you want to take that personally and launch into another one your your rambling diatribes…. why not just be honest and address me, personally.   Bill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be. , Bill Smith writes:  Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches,teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.

Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying. Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work, not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from. They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious. I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                            Home page of New School Acting

Response:

Jeremy, I don’t subscribe that the traditional form of acting is dead or dying. Look at the fabulous performances of some actors who subscribe to the "old school".  There are too numerous to mention.  The reason is, it works. However, I don’t want to get into a symantics discussion  with Jeremy. As I said, the best actors are a blend of many techniques.  Certainly there is good an bad in everything.  For every good teacher, there are 4 bad ones.  By bad I mean that they won’t do anything for you, but they might help someone else.  And then some are just bad.  Point is, look first, then leap.  And if you feel like you aren’t getting what you need, look again.  Keep looking, always.  We never know everything and we can always learn from someone. Peter Elliott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying. Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work, not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from. They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious. I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy

Peter Elliott

Response:

  And by the way, an improv class in the hands of an incompetent coach can be disastorous…. you’ll might end up learning more bad acting habits than good.

Touche Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                                      Home page of New School Acting

Response:

I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be.  Change is the main thing that makes us great actors.  We must experience many things so we can better understand all aspects of life and, in this instance, acting. Peter Elliott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Micheal, Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with.    I will respectufully disagree with Jeremy.  Jeremy and I are both actors and we are also coaches.  While I resist lables, I freely admit that I studied with Adler and Lewis — decades later, I suppose I could call myself Stanislavski influenced.      But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches, teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.

Peter Elliott

Response:

Micheal, Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                          Home page of New School Acting

Response:

Micheal, Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with.

        I will respectufully disagree with Jeremy.  Jeremy and I are both actors and we are also coaches.  While I resist lables, I freely admit that I studied with Adler and Lewis — decades later, I suppose I could call myself Stanislavski influenced.           But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches, teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.         The point is…. don’t take any one person’s word…. shop around.         And by the way, an improv class in the hands of an incompetent coach can be disastorous…. you’ll might end up learning more bad acting habits than good. Break a leg, Bill

Response:

Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with.   And by the way, an improv class in the hands of an incompetent coach can be disastorous…. you’ll might end up learning more bad acting habits than good.

Touche Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                                      Home page of New School Acting

Response:

Lots of questions by Michael, One, if you are interested in acting, TRY IT!  Take a theater class at UCLA or audition for a theater production there.  It will take a little time, but then you will have a feel for what acting is. About the lifestyle, actors are known for the bizzarre, but most lead normal lives (at least the ones who make a living at it).  A "starving actor" will work odd jobs, stay in rundown places with weird room mates and eat macaroni and cheese for dinner every night.  The life style is up to you based on what you are willing to do for the sake of acting.   There is no path to "making it".  Each actor has a different story.  Some have things handed to them by fate, family or blind luck.  Others work hard, study the craft, network and keep at it until it happens or they give up and try something else.  Others just call themselves an actor without ever really trying.   They either train and train but never perform, or they audition and audition without getting the  part because they aren’t bothering with training. But for you, I would say get out there and try it while you still have some time.  It may not be for you and you will never have to wonder "what if".  If you love it, it may change you life, or it may give you something to do many years from now when you have a practice and some time to act. Either way, you at least get to taste it first hand. Peter Elliott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a premed at UCLA, and I have at various times considered acting. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about the business, and I have heard that the life of an actor can be miserable.   Basically I am afraid of doing something stupid and trashing my future. How can I learn more about REAL actors/acting and "making it"? What kind of life does the "average" actor (is there such a thing) live? What does it take to be successful? Should I take classes? Am I just nuts??? I am sure that experience is a critical component of success, and I have little to none of that But I feel that I should at least try.  In a few years my future will be pretty much locked, and I think now is the time. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks Very Much Michael

Peter Elliott

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am a premed at UCLA, and I have at various times considered acting. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about the business, and I have heard that the life of an actor can be miserable. Basically I am afraid of doing something stupid and trashing my future. How can I learn more about REAL actors/acting and "making it"? What kind of life does the "average" actor (is there such a thing) live? What does it take to be successful? Should I take classes? Am I just nuts??? I am sure that experience is a critical component of success, and I have little to none of that But I feel that I should at least try.  In a few years my future will be pretty much locked, and I think now is the time. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks Very Much Michael

Hi Michael… I am a successful voice actor/announcer.  By successful, I mean that I’m able to earn a living doing exclusively this kind of work.  I also know several "successful" actors and a lot of "unsuccessful ones.  I spent the first half of my life trying desperately to be "responsible". (I was always good physics and electronics and tried to be an "engineer" (working in showbiz) I was not happy in my career, even though I did some "acting" type work part time.  Through an odd series of happenings, I slowly came to the realization that, although I had the ability to be an "engineer", my temperment was that of an "artist". Oddly enough, the tests that I took in high school, (the kind that tell you what you really want to be) said that I was an "actor" or "writer" or some such thing — not an engineer.  At the time I had no exposure to performing, and I was sure the test was totally off-base. It has surprised me that as an "artist" I am much less "stressed-out" – and actually do better, financially, than as an "engineer". I also know a few others who have pursued the "responsible" route through life, who are quietly miserable — I also know a couple of actors who went into the field because of parental pressure (parents were actors) who are clearly not happy — they should be accountants or some such thing.  As a matter of fact, my lawyer used to be an actress – one who had considerable success – got into the field due to her parents (both actors) and one day realized she would be much happier if she became a lawyer — she did and she is! Now to the answer to your questions… (of course there is no simple answer) 1.  Samuel French Bookstores (In Hollywood and Studio city) have a lot of books on acting and "making it in Hollywood". Most (but not all), believe it or not, actually offer reasonable advice. There are literally hundreds of books by well-known actors, describing their careers.  Most are fairly honest, especially the ones where the actors claim they have no idea why they have had success. 2.  There is no "making it" in Hollywood.  No matter who you are, you are always in an insecure position. 3.  There is no such thing as an "average actor"  Some are millionaires, some are homeless most are not making a living from acting. (I think the "homeless" actors would be homeless, even if they weren’t actors) 4.  It is important to remember, that as an actor, you are always in business for yourself. Success (being able to earn a living) depends on product (your talent) and marketing (how well and how much you promote yourself)  If you define success as making millions and becoming a star, consider playing the lottery. 5.  Yes.  Take classes… It will tell you a lot about yourself.  You will change as a person, and the classes will make you a better doctor, if that is the path you choose.  (I understand some medical schools are recommending that their students take acting or speech classes) 6.  Being "nuts" is a requirement for any job in showbiz  (this is not a joke). 7.  Being an artist is not a choice.  It is ingrained into a person’s personality.  If you are one, and you ignore that (stay "in the artistic "closet" so-to-speak), you will never achieve fullfulment.  If you try to be one and you’re not, you will also not be happy. -Good Luck (whatever path you choose) Travis (The Voice-Over Guy from Newport Beach, CA)

Response:

Hi I am a premed at UCLA, and I have at various times considered acting. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about the business, and I have heard that the life of an actor can be miserable.   Basically I am afraid of doing something stupid and trashing my future. How can I learn more about REAL actors/acting and "making it"? What kind of life does the "average" actor (is there such a thing) live? What does it take to be successful? Should I take classes? Am I just nuts??? I am sure that experience is a critical component of success, and I have little to none of that But I feel that I should at least try.  In a few years my future will be pretty much locked, and I think now is the time. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks Very Much Michael

Response: