Question:

Hello, I am not working in the audit/accounting sector. I have a question about the consequence of choosing Open Source/Free accounting softwares (1). I have attended a conference where the speaker explained that such an accounting software would give less assurance to the auditor concerning the trustability of the accounting. He argued that, as you can read the source code of the software, as you can modify it and recompile it, you would be able to modify the data already inputted in the system. While this is true, technically speaking, I had the impression that there was something wrong with this argument. I would be very interested in reading the accountant/auditor point of vue about this issue. Frederic. (1) For those of you who are not familiar with Open Source/Free softwares, we can say that Free software is a matter of the users’ freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software: 1- The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). 2- The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. 3- The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). 4- The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I am not working in the audit/accounting sector. I have a question about the consequence of choosing Open Source/Free accounting softwares (1). I have attended a conference where the speaker explained that such an accounting software would give less assurance to the auditor concerning the trustability of the accounting. He argued that, as you can read the source code of the software, as you can modify it and recompile it, you would be able to modify the data already inputted in the system. While this is true, technically speaking, I had the impression that there was something wrong with this argument. I would be very interested in reading the accountant/auditor point of vue about this issue.

==== You can probably  modify data already in any system.  I use Peachtree Accounting and if I find something that needs to be changed several months later, I can go back to, say January, and add, change or delete any transaction whether I’m now in February or December.  I can even go back into a prior year. Futhermore, very few auditors are likely to get that deep into things.  If any auditor were to question it at all, it would probably be an internal auditor rather than an audit firm (like Arthur Andersen) hired to tell the stockholders that everything is O.K. If you had a system that absolutely precluded going back to modify anything, the question could conceivably be raised if you switched to a system that did not prevent it.  It could be argued that any changes should be recorded as an adjustment to the prior period so as to leave an audit trail.  Major companies probably have such systems.  A company I used to work for recorded both the "accounting" month and the month of occurrence when out of period adjustments were made.  This created other problems.  Some months would show large variances in certain operations because the accounting month showed both current business and prior adjustments.  We had do devise a program to show the accounting month vertically and the occurrence month horizontally across the page to determine if the variances signified anything was wrong.

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The lecturer’s argument is /not/ a criticism of Open Source; it is a criticism that may be used to attack any sort of software that uses any sort of "open standard." In short, "nonsense." I tend to agree. I see no reason to believe that "open source" software is any less secure than "proprietary" software.  Neither can be relied upon without question (both are subject to manipulation).

The main difference may be that if a piece of "open source" software is badly built, everyone can be made aware of that, whereas incompetent construction of "closed source" software can be hidden. That’s a sword that cuts both ways, of course; you’re less likely to get stuck with incompetently constructed "open source" software… — http://cbbrowne.com/info/linux.html "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."  – Philip Greenspun

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Having written accounting software for over 15 years, I’d make the following points. 1)  The statement about open databases and tables is true. 2)  Yes you can modify source code to cook the books. 3)  In most cases accounting software uses relational databases.  That means changing just one databas will only put you  out of balance and make it obvious that someone tried something. 4)  Most of what I write includes passive audit trails.  These are usually invisible to the end user.  I once spent 1/2 a day trying to prove that I hadn’t caught an embezzer.  I had.  Even low end stuff like Peachtree has elements of this kind. 5)  The average accounting package has thousands of lines of code.  Much of it in highly structured. If it is a package I support I can probably spot where you broke it in a few hours at most. 6)  Many large companies do not let the IT department at real data as they can hid the  trails. 7)  One of the bigest problems with proprietary tables is that you can’t view the tables directly.  For instance I had a plumbing company secretary swear on a stack of bibles she hadn’t entered any transactions out of period.  Then I told her which ones she had and she admitted that she had to do a few little fixes. Bill Couture http:\www.sbtbill.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Frederic Lemoine Hello, I am not working in the audit/accounting sector. I have a question about the consequence of choosing Open Source/Free accounting softwares (1). I have attended a conference where the speaker explained that such an accounting software would give less assurance to the auditor concerning the trustability of the accounting. He argued that, as you can read the source code of the software, as you can modify it and recompile it, you would be able to modify the data already inputted in the system. While this is true, technically speaking, I had the impression that there was something wrong with this argument. I would be very interested in reading the accountant/auditor point of vue about this issue. The lecturer clearly didn’t think through the implications of his claims…  Actually, this claim implies that using software that uses any sort of "open" data format would be a severely problematic thing. Consider: If you use Microsoft Great Plains Dynamic, you’re using some distinctly NOT-free software. But data is (normally) stored in Microsoft SQL Server.  (Or Faircom’s C-Tree format, which is arguably less open, but still, to someone with a license to C-Tree, pretty readable.) Anyone with some form of admin ID can go into the DBMS and fiddle with the data. Lest someone with a modicum of understanding of databases should object with something like "Oh, but they have stored procedures to defeat that…" it is trivial to respond with "… But if you have an admin ID, which /someone/ has to have, then you can fiddle with and defeat the triggers." The same sort of thing is true for /any/ accounting software that runs atop SQL database software as sold by Oracle, Sybase, IBM, Microsoft, SAP, and such. The lecturer’s argument is /not/ a criticism of Open Source; it is a criticism that may be used to attack any sort of software that uses any sort of "open standard." In short, "nonsense."

I tend to agree. I see no reason to believe that "open source" software is any less secure than "proprietary" software.  Neither can be relied upon without question (both are subject to manipulation). Jim Hudspeth, CPA, CFE  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I am not working in the audit/accounting sector. I have a question about the consequence of choosing Open Source/Free accounting softwares (1). I have attended a conference where the speaker explained that such an accounting software would give less assurance to the auditor concerning the trustability of the accounting. He argued that, as you can read the source code of the software, as you can modify it and recompile it, you would be able to modify the data already inputted in the system. While this is true, technically speaking, I had the impression that there was something wrong with this argument. I would be very interested in reading the accountant/auditor point of vue about this issue.

The lecturer clearly didn’t think through the implications of his claims…  Actually, this claim implies that using software that uses any sort of "open" data format would be a severely problematic thing. Consider: If you use Microsoft Great Plains Dynamic, you’re using some distinctly NOT-free software. But data is (normally) stored in Microsoft SQL Server.  (Or Faircom’s C-Tree format, which is arguably less open, but still, to someone with a license to C-Tree, pretty readable.) Anyone with some form of admin ID can go into the DBMS and fiddle with the data. Lest someone with a modicum of understanding of databases should object with something like "Oh, but they have stored procedures to defeat that…" it is trivial to respond with "… But if you have an admin ID, which /someone/ has to have, then you can fiddle with and defeat the triggers." The same sort of thing is true for /any/ accounting software that runs atop SQL database software as sold by Oracle, Sybase, IBM, Microsoft, SAP, and such. The lecturer’s argument is /not/ a criticism of Open Source; it is a criticism that may be used to attack any sort of software that uses any sort of "open standard." In short, "nonsense." — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linuxxian.html "What  you end  up with,  after  running an  operating system  concept through these  many marketing coffee filters, is  something not unlike plain hot water."  – Matt Welsh

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Question:

As an intangible asset – ‘Formation Expenses" Peter French Melbourne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, How do we record the company registration fee on the accounts? I don’t see how it is recorded as expenditure because it is acutally spent before the company exists ? Or can the company reimburse the founders for this fee ? Many Thanks Daniel

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Hi All, How do we record the company registration fee on the accounts? I don’t see how it is recorded as expenditure because it is acutally spent before the company exists ? Or can the company reimburse the founders for this fee ? Many Thanks Daniel

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These expenses are treated as Formation Expenses, and are actually an asset, that can be amortised for accounting purposes, but not for tax. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, How do we record the company registration fee on the accounts? I don’t see how it is recorded as expenditure because it is acutally spent before the company exists ? Or can the company reimburse the founders for this fee ? Many Thanks Daniel

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Question:

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Professionals often have such an overwhelming advantage in terms of knowledge that the client (or patient) has little effective power of choice.  That is why we are licensed and regulated. I agree.  That’s especially true when the client isn’t informed of the benefits the CPA will receive if the client pursues Action A, especially if the client believes that he is the only one compensating the CPA.

Ed, Thanks for some very insightful comments. Many years ago, while still flying for money, I took a college course taught by an attorney / pilot dealing with aviation law.  One of the ideas that stuck was the concept of absolute liability.  The idea, with regards to aviation, was that some things are so outrageously dangerous that indulging in them could create "absolute liability".  The Latin term used by this attorney / professor was RES IPSA LO QUTUR, which translates to English as "the thing (act) speaks for itself". I believe this concept is also applicable to professional conduct when the professional is dealing with a client who has limited capacity, as could be the case where a tax preparer is working with elderly people in their declining years. In order to illustrate the law, I copy pasted the following from http://www.pimall.com/nais/n.negl.html. UNDERSTANDING THE DOCTRINE OF RES IPSA LO QUTUR Negligence can be proven with circumstantial evidence and one type is res ipsa loquitur. This is a Latin term which means, "the thing (act) speaks for itself. There must be four elements present to prove or show negligence with this doctrine. They are: a) The accident could not have ordinarily occurred without someone being negligent. b) The accident is caused by an instrumentality within the exclusive control of the defendant. c) The injured party (plaintiff) did not contribute to the negligence. d) The evidence as to the explanation of the accident is more available to the defendant than to the plaintiff. If we substitute "loss" for "accident", not a stretch at all, we have language that fits a malpractice situation.  Further, let us assume a situation where a CPA sells front-loaded mutual funds to a tax client known to have diminished capacity.  After the sale the market crashes, leaving the CPA with a nice commission and the client with a nasty loss. In my opinion, given our long-standing public commitment to integrity and independence, this client has a reasonable claim that the CPA should be liable for the loss. As a general rule, I don’t go looking for opportunities to help sue fellow accountants, however there are exceptions and the above is one of them. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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But, to carry on the devil’s advocate role, the argument is that there exist incentives to "cheat" the client (and/or sell unneeded products and services) in all compensation models and that the ethical (both formal/regulatory and simple moral stature) makeup of the individual is what has to control those impulses.  Which is correct as far as it goes. Well, it takes two to tango. Any proposal can be refused by the client – CPAs do not possess any specific abilities to overpower the volitional control of clients or their power of choice.

I am prone to agree with Harry.  CPAs aren’t that powerful and even when clients somehow think the CPA is bigger than life, they probably get better treatmnet than from other industries. Banks have known in tremendous detail, your buying and selling for decades, and used it in many ways.  The world didn’t end… In fact the marketing industry has great detailed info. on everybody already and there’s no big outcry. Keep in mind, many people and businesses WANT to receive offers as long as those are things of interest to them.  When marketers really know your needs, you start getting better ads.  I get some free mags. that are really first rate. ‘odd

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, to carry on the devil’s advocate role, the argument is that there exist incentives to "cheat" the client (and/or sell unneeded products and services) in all compensation models and that the ethical (both formal/regulatory and simple moral stature) makeup of the individual is what has to control those impulses.  Which is correct as far as it goes. Well, it takes two to tango. Any proposal can be refused by the client – CPAs do not possess any specific abilities to overpower the volitional control of clients or their power of choice. I am prone to agree with Harry.  CPAs aren’t that powerful and even when clients somehow think the CPA is bigger than life, they probably get better treatmnet than from other industries. Banks have known in tremendous detail, your buying and selling for decades, and used it in many ways.  The world didn’t end… In fact the marketing industry has great detailed info. on everybody already and there’s no big outcry. Keep in mind, many people and businesses WANT to receive offers as long as those are things of interest to them.  When marketers really know your needs, you start getting better ads.  I get some free mags. that are really first rate. ‘odd

Speaking about banks, have all of you given your CPA clients the privacy disclosure forms required by the FTC by June 30? These relate to tax preparers having been classified as financial institutions, possibly due to the prevalence of this type of marketing. I wonder how quickly the H&R Blocks (no relation) will comply with this rule?      Mike Block – Tax Cut CPA  World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester     FREE  NetLedger accounting   FREE 462p QB books/error codes 100+ QB add-ons http://blocktax.com/

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Speaking about banks, have all of you given your CPA clients the privacy disclosure forms required by the FTC by June 30?

It is is on the short to do list.  I wonder how quickly the H&R Blocks (no relation) will comply with this rule?

Most likely by 6/30/2001. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Mike Block said, Speaking about banks, have all of you given your CPA clients the privacy disclosure forms required by the FTC by June 30? These relate to tax preparers having been classified as financial institutions, possibly due to the prevalence of this type of marketing. I wonder how quickly the H&R Blocks (no relation) will comply with this rule?

Heh heh!  Since taking my metadata pledge I am no longer subject to these things.  With great satisfaction this year I sent back my QAR form to the Wash. BOard of Accountancy as well, marked no attestation this year!     And my fees are up by 100% since moving into XML and webledger consulting.  That’s what happens when you do what the market is telling you to do, instead of following the habitual patterns of the past decades before computers, TOdd http://www.gldialtone.com/MetadataPledge.htm

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Heh heh!  Since taking my metadata pledge I am no longer subject to these things.  With great satisfaction this year I sent back my QAR form to the Wash. BOard of Accountancy as well, marked no attestation this year!    

Well, maybe not so quick on that last point.  You noted the following in your pledge: "If the statement is wrong or has insufficient drilldown for him to understand, well, that’s MY job, to fix." If you fix the statement because it’s wrong, I suspect that clearly under the pre-SSARS 8 accounting and review standards *AND* possibly even under the post-SSARS 8 standards (if you believe the Compilation/Review Alert’s asterisk) you may have been required to perform an attest service on the statements. Don’t bother with little details like *HOW* you go about attaching a report to an XML based report <grin, the issue is that it appears you needed to do it. Second, because the tax preparer provision also includes tax planning, it’s a lot easier to trip the FTC rule than you might expect.

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Ed Zollars said, "If the statement is wrong or has insufficient drilldown for him to understand, well, that’s MY job, to fix." If you fix the statement because it’s wrong, I suspect that clearly under the pre-SSARS 8 accounting and review standards *AND* possibly even under the post-SSARS 8 standards (if you

Ed! Thanks for the correction–and the warning.  I will rephrase my metadata pledge. Accounting systems are designed and configured for the purpose of generating financial statements.  Owners have a right to collect informaiton about transactions they have executed and to print reports and summaries to their hearts’ content. If an accounting system creates financial statements that are incorrect from the data entered by users, or do not provide sufficient functionality for the reader to drilldown into the information to answer their questions, that is my job to fix. If the government wants to come after me for working on accounting software, I will be very surprised.  Who knows. I have been surprised before.   Ed –Is there some presumption I am allowing my name to be associatd with these financial statements?  That would be quite a stretch, for a webledger vendor who provides accounting software systems, no accounting services, and doesn’t even know the client and has never even seen his data! Todd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heh heh!  Since taking my metadata pledge I am no longer subject to these things.  With great satisfaction this year I sent back my QAR form to the Wash. BOard of Accountancy as well, marked no attestation this year!     Well, maybe not so quick on that last point.  You noted the following in your pledge: "If the statement is wrong or has insufficient drilldown for him to understand, well, that’s MY job, to fix." If you fix the statement because it’s wrong, I suspect that clearly under the pre-SSARS 8 accounting and review standards *AND* possibly even under the post-SSARS 8 standards (if you believe the Compilation/Review Alert’s asterisk) you may have been required to perform an attest service on the statements. Don’t bother with little details like *HOW* you go about attaching a report to an XML based report <grin, the issue is that it appears you needed to do it. Second, because the tax preparer provision also includes tax planning, it’s a lot easier to trip the FTC rule than you might expect.

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Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Professionals often have such an overwhelming advantage in terms of knowledge that the client (or patient) has little effective power of choice.  That is why we are licensed and regulated.

I agree.  That’s especially true when the client isn’t informed of the benefits the CPA will receive if the client pursues Action A, especially if the client believes that he is the only one compensating the CPA.  I have a lot less trouble with *fully disclosed* commissions–and by that I don’t mean disclosed in a manner that meets the legal requirements but is structured to attempt to "slide" it by the client (the "fine print" method, including a paragraph buried in an engagement letter), but I mean openly discussed just as any other fee would be. I doubt any CPA would openly defend an "it’s OK if helps more than hurts" standard.  Some certainly practice that way, but I know of very few who talk that way, even in private.

The problem with "it’s OK if it helps more than it hurts" is that it’s very easy to rationalize any situation so that you believe that.  I’ve found that most financial service providers (I mean mutual fund companies, insurance companies, brokerages, etc.) spend a lot of time "stroking" the sales force to help them believe that whatever they do helps more than it hurts those they are selling to. This isn’t about the efficacy of commissions.  

I would put it this way–whether they are effective or not, I have trouble accepting a payment that is *expected* to have an influence on my behavior so that I look out for the interest of the paying party as opposed to the client. Using the logic of efficacy, a politician accepting favors would be "OK" so long as the politician could convince himself that they had no impact on his actions.  As a practical matter, I expect that even those that have accepted the largest bribes have managed to convince themselves that this is the case.

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Well, it takes two to tango. Any proposal can be refused by the client – CPAs do not possess any specific abilities to overpower the volitional control of clients or their power of choice.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Professionals often have such an overwhelming advantage in terms of knowledge that the client (or patient) has little effective power of choice.  That is why we are licensed and regulated. But I think it’s also very important to watch ourselves to see when we are rationalizing away potentially harmful behavior. Definitely – but nobody is perfect. I think the essential evaluation factor here is simply "are you helping the client more than harming him?" And I’m confident you are – and CPAs are.

While some of our members have difficulty "walking the walk", for the most part we all still "talk the talk".  We persistently claim follow a Code of Professional Conduct which stresses independence, integrity, objectivity, technical competence and adherence to professional standards. I doubt any CPA would openly defend an "it’s OK if helps more than hurts" standard.  Some certainly practice that way, but I know of very few who talk that way, even in private. BTW – the fact that sales commissions are paid isn’t a proof that they work or would cause "excessive selling" <grin. In fact, what I’ve found is that it’s more a question of wishful thinking on the management’s side (SME especially).

This isn’t about the efficacy of commissions.  It is about knowing who and what we serve.  When we claim to be working on behalf of a client we should not willing permit ourselves to be distracted.  There are enough conflicts without inviting them. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Of course you could.  So could I.  I doubt you would.  I know I wouldn’t.

But, to carry on the devil’s advocate role, the argument is that there exist incentives to "cheat" the client (and/or sell unneeded products and services) in all compensation models and that the ethical (both formal/regulatory and simple moral stature) makeup of the individual is what has to control those impulses.  Which is correct as far as it goes. But I think it’s also very important to watch ourselves to see when we are rationalizing away potentially harmful behavior.  And that includes asking whether we don’t have a real bias (conscious or unconscious) towards proposing solutions that will give us a benefit vs. solutions that might be more appropriate but for which we won’t receive compensation.  And that’s true whether the solution relates to tax planning services *OR* life insurance policies.

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 I think it’s also very important to watch ourselves to see when we are rationalizing away potentially harmful behavior.  And that includes asking whether we don’t have a real bias (conscious or unconscious) towards proposing solutions that will give us a benefit vs. solutions that might be more appropriate but for which we won’t receive compensation.  And that’s true whether the solution relates to tax planning services *OR* life insurance policies.

Agreed. and lead us not into temptation, but save us from evil. Matthew 6 – 13 — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Of course you could.  So could I.  I doubt you would.  I know I wouldn’t. But, to carry on the devil’s advocate role, the argument is that there exist incentives to "cheat" the client (and/or sell unneeded products and services) in all compensation models and that the ethical (both formal/regulatory and simple moral stature) makeup of the individual is what has to control those impulses.  Which is correct as far as it goes.

Well, it takes two to tango. Any proposal can be refused by the client – CPAs do not possess any specific abilities to overpower the volitional control of clients or their power of choice. But I think it’s also very important to watch ourselves to see when we are rationalizing away potentially harmful behavior.

Definitely – but nobody is perfect. I think the essential evaluation factor here is simply "are you helping the client more than harming him?" And I’m confident you are – and CPAs are.  And that includes asking whether we don’t have a real bias (conscious or unconscious) towards proposing solutions that will give us a benefit vs. solutions that might be more appropriate but for which we won’t receive compensation.  And that’s true whether the solution relates to tax planning services *OR* life insurance policies.

BTW – the fact that sales commissions are paid isn’t a proof that they work or would cause "excessive selling" <grin. In fact, what I’ve found is that it’s more a question of wishful thinking on the management’s side (SME especially). I think the basic fundamental problem of this "sell or not sell" issue has an additiona vector  or dimension. You cannot accurately evaluate this without taking number of clients and rate of expansion (growth of client base) into the equation. Simply, if the number of clients remains the same, but sales ($) goes up, then definitely you are approaching the point where you are selling too much to each client. To keep this at a healthy level, NEW clients would be needed — in other words, sales has to act on two fronts: 1) Finding / sigining on NEW clients 2) Analyzing the needs of existing clients and offering them needed services based on those findings. I understand the ethical concern but simplified, it just means the CPA would have to SELF be certain that the service will benefit the client more than "harm" (expense) him. I don’t really believe there are all that many "cheaters" and "cheated." I firmly believes most of the business activity works on the intention to offer valuable services that benefit the client. Best wishes Harry http://www.cpamarketingtips.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, I think the "much more" is just bad advertising copy – a meaningless addition many of use tend to add on to such presentations of benefits just in case we missed something. I don’t know these guys and I received the same e-mail. But it doesn’t seem like it necessarily has bad intentions. As Ed elsewhere explains in a much more learned way, they probably just mean that by having access to the clients data, you can analyze it with the purpose of finding whether he has some problem he doesn’t KNOW about. With an existing client, the trust factor is much higher than with potential clients — and often all you need to do is to POINT OUT he may have a problem that has now been noticed… and he will want it handled. Self-serving as it may seem — for I am a seller <grin — the activity of sales isn’t usually one of bad intention. The basic purpose of any service provider is to HELP his clients to succeed better — and the basic goal of clients is (or should be) to attain a higher degree of success. But the problem that hasn’t been found, cannot be solved. Found problems can and the obvious choice for solving it (in lieau of a fee) would be the CPA that found it. Most clients appreciate you finding such a problem, provided it is communicated to him in a correct way. I would assume that’s what this message is basically talking about — but they’ve tried to present it as a sales opportunity and as such, their approach appears to suggest a breach. But again – I don’t know these guys… just commenting on their copy based on my own understanding of it. Best wishes Harry Kafka

Harry, Thanks for the comments. While I recognize that sales is a necessary element of modern life, I am greatly troubled by the level of commercial intrusions into professional services we are presently enduring. Yes, I agree with Ed that professionals do (and should) analyze data available to them for the benefit of their clients.  What I am objecting to is the notion that a primary reason for seeking access to such data is to acquire sales opportunities. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Our first doctor is a professional first and a merchant of necessity. Our second doctor is using his professional status to facilitate his merchandising. Correct as far as it goes, though I suspect that most professionals would *see* themselves as being part of the first group rather than the second.  Since "someone" would get the commission anyway (which presupposes the client would buy it absent the CPA pushing), the rationalization would go that it doesn’t harm the client at all for the CPA to collect that fee.

I plan to stay in the first group. Under the right circumstances some people can rationalize just about anything. In his own mind Tim McViegh was justified in blowing up the Federal building. I doubt either of us would agree with him.  The jury certainly didn’t. And, to give the devil his due, some would argue that the same example could use "standard" services rather than merchandise (or financial products).  For instance, I’m perfectly aware that people react irrationally to taxes, and that I can use the "save taxes" mantra to sell a lot of services that don’t make economic sense (they end up leaving the client net poorer than simply paying the tax).

Of course you could.  So could I.  I doubt you would.  I know I wouldn’t. A real problem I have, though, is that I know why *my* clients pay commissions to their sales forces–and that’s because they expect the commissions to have a certain behavioral impact on the salesperson to get him/her to sell more product than they otherwise would.  If it truly had no behavioral impact, my clients would likely not pay commissions at all.  I have trouble believing that the financial services industry doesn’t believe the same thing–that paying commissions to the CPA affects his/her recommendation in favor of their products.

Charles Keating was asked if he thought his political contributions bought him political favors. His response – "I sure hope so". Of course they believe commissions are effective – otherwise they wouldn’t pay them. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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Our first doctor is a professional first and a merchant of necessity. Our second doctor is using his professional status to facilitate his merchandising.

Correct as far as it goes, though I suspect that most professionals would *see* themselves as being part of the first group rather than the second.  Since "someone" would get the commission anyway (which presupposes the client would buy it absent the CPA pushing), the rationalization would go that it doesn’t harm the client at all for the CPA to collect that fee. And, to give the devil his due, some would argue that the same example could use "standard" services rather than merchandise (or financial products).  For instance, I’m perfectly aware that people react irrationally to taxes, and that I can use the "save taxes" mantra to sell a lot of services that don’t make economic sense (they end up leaving the client net poorer than simply paying the tax). A real problem I have, though, is that I know why *my* clients pay commissions to their sales forces–and that’s because they expect the commissions to have a certain behavioral impact on the salesperson to get him/her to sell more product than they otherwise would.  If it truly had no behavioral impact, my clients would likely not pay commissions at all.  I have trouble believing that the financial services industry doesn’t believe the same thing–that paying commissions to the CPA affects his/her recommendation in favor of their products.

Response:

Yes, I agree with Ed that professionals do (and should) analyze data available to them for the benefit of their clients.  What I am objecting to is the notion that a primary reason for seeking access to such data is to acquire sales opportunities.

Though I understand (and share) many of your concerns, I will play devil’s advocate here.  That is, what is the fundamental difference between me informing a client that he could benefit from establishing a family limited partnership (even though the client didn’t consult you about estate planning specifically) and informing the client that he might benefit from another financial product or service?  That is, aren’t both of these cases of *selling* additional products or services to clients? My real problem involves a) selling products and services that I truly do not the same type of experience that I do with other parts of my practice and b) working with compensation arrangements that have different biases depending on the type of work involved.  Note that all compensation mechanisms have biases built in–but it’s tougher on the client when those biases shift on the fly. The first issue is my real problem–in too many cases, what is really being asked of the CPA, attorney, whomever is to essentially transfer the data to an outside party and/or to make "canned" sales.  The problem is that this is a fundamental shift in how we normally work.  Normally I select from the entire universe of tax planning options to customize something for a client’s problem.  But in many of these financial services engagements, I’m specifically dealing only with a limited subset of potential options the client might select–and I *cannot* select from certain options (or at least cannot if I plan to be paid for my services).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I agree with Ed that professionals do (and should) analyze data available to them for the benefit of their clients.  What I am objecting to is the notion that a primary reason for seeking access to such data is to acquire sales opportunities. Though I understand (and share) many of your concerns, I will play devil’s advocate here.  That is, what is the fundamental difference between me informing a client that he could benefit from establishing a family limited partnership (even though the client didn’t consult you about estate planning specifically) and informing the client that he might benefit from another financial product or service?  That is, aren’t both of these cases of *selling* additional products or services to clients?

Ed, The difference is not the product or service, but the motivation behind the professional involved. It is often easier to understand these things with a non personal example.  For that purpose, let us assume a couple of 19th century country doctors. Our first country doctor makes house calls, delivers babies, sets bone breaks, etc., etc.  He goes to a medical convention and hears about some new and wonderful drugs. There is no place in his community where these drugs can be purchased, so he sets up a small pharmacy.  He sets his prices so that he can cover his cost and overhead and make a modest profit.  His purpose it to provide the best medical care possible to his community. Our second country doctor does all the same things, except that when he goes to the medical conference he sees the new drugs and realizes that he has a captive market that will pay big bucks for these new drugs.  He returns home, sets up a pharmacy, prescribes the maximum drugs possible at the highest prices possible.  He is concerned that the community remain healthy enough to continue to support his pharmacy. Our first doctor is a professional first and a merchant of necessity. Our second doctor is using his professional status to facilitate his merchandising. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

… The first issue is my real problem–in too many cases, what is really being asked of the CPA, …

Is to sell a commission product to his "natural market."  It goes downhill form there…… I would find it very hard to sell most of these products to one of my clients, IF I was in public practice, simply because I have always been able to put together a better package on my own.  There is a reason why these "products" have to be SOLD. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *   Unemployed six years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia       * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The following is an excerpt from a solicitation that just arrived in my ebox. For accountants only:  This is an invitation to listen in on a FREE Teleconference on Application Service Provider (ASP) technology and outsourced on line accounting. <snip Learn how to increase revenue by… <snip

Question:

Nothing like drive-by pontification, especially when one has obviously failed to understand the entire story. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It would help if you would get background info before pontificating. I read your messages.  You feel the person either misunderstood you was an asshole, or a ‘STUPID FOREIGNER’, without taking in to consideration that expressed your desire to break the contract because you couldn’t pay.  Then he gave you a negative which you may or may not have deserved. And now you’re getting pissy about it, and want to be the bigger of two assholes. I’ll say it again:  move on. If you haven’t already, respond to your negative feedback in your feedback profile with an explanation, then move on. It’s as simple as that. — The leading distinction of magnets is sex… The kind that is found in Troas is black, and of the female sex, and consequently destitute of attractive power.  -Pliny The Elder (23-79)

– BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

Nothing like drive-by pontification, especially when one has obviously failed to understand the entire story.

.. then one should obviously explain the story better. — The leading distinction of magnets is sex… The kind that is found in Troas is black, and of the female sex, and consequently destitute of attractive power.  -Pliny The Elder (23-79)

Response:

: It would help if you would get background info before pontificating. : : I read your messages.  You feel the person either misunderstood you : was an asshole, or a ‘STUPID FOREIGNER’, without taking in to : consideration that expressed your desire to break the contract : because you couldn’t pay.  Then he gave you a negative which you may : or may not have deserved. : Uh, she did pay.  He didn’t ship.

Response:

Gee, everyone else seems to have absorbed it. Nothing like drive-by pontification, especially when one has obviously failed to understand the entire story. .. then one should obviously explain the story better. — The leading distinction of magnets is sex… The kind that is found in Troas is black, and of the female sex, and consequently destitute of attractive power.  -Pliny The Elder (23-79)

– BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

Sorry, I don’t tolerate negatives — especially for no good reason. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, you all have to help me come up with a way to get back at this asshole. (Pardon my Russian there.) In searching out other versions of Peachtree, I stumbled onto an auction in which my friend the Iraqui (or whatever) has re-listed the software he wouldn’t let me buy, and he couldn’t ship properly. Here is the description: "PEACHTREE ACCOUNTING VER 8.0 FOR 20001,CHECK WRITING,INVOICING,PAYROLL,INVENTORY,NEW IN ORIGINAL BOX UPC LABEL TAKEN FOR REBATE SHIPPING $8.00 NOTE:WINNER SHOULD EMAIL SHIPPING ADDRESS AND CREDIT # JAN RODAK,ID#LEFTCOAST-THREAD-WAS WINNER OF THIS ITEM,SHE COULD NOT BUY IT,THAT IS WHY I AM LISTING THIS ITEM AGAIN 770-564- 1128 FAX 770-717-7080. Tell me … did I fall into some black hole, or is my kharma acting up? Why is this guy such a loser?? More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a little lesson?? It’s really not that bad if you think about it. Let’s assume that I’m a seller who doesn’t know the whole story and who happens to see this auction (which I doubt many people would): 1) It does say "could not buy" rather than "deadbeat scumbag" or    something even worse. (I’m not saying you /are/ a deadbeat, but    people do love to exaggerate.) 2) Even if I did see it, I doubt I’d remember it a week later. 3) Even if I did remember it, it wouldn’t put me off of having you    bid on my auctions unless you had a big history of bid retraction. So true, it’s annoying that s/he mentions your name and eBay ID, but I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Unless, of course, that’s your phone number in the listing — then I’d contact SafeHarbor… — If you’re interested in voting on the possible creation of a new online auction newsgroup, please see the article entitled "CFV: misc. business.online-auctions.discuss", posted in news.announce.newgroups, for official instructions. Thank you!

– BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

I just now e-mailed them. I actually didn’t know that was a violation of policy. And yes, that is my personal info.

That makes a big difference.  Ignore my other posts:  get pissed off and report him, instead.  ;) — O that the gods would bring to a miserable end such fictitious, crazy, deformed labours, with which the minds of the studious are blinded!  -William Gilbert (1544-1603)

Response:

Actually, no .. that’s his phone number. But it’s my name and (almost) my User ID (he left off a letter, that illiterate swine). That’s why I’m not sure if it’s a BAD violation. Nonetheless, it ticks me off. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that your phone number the idiot put in there?  It looks like a USA phone number.  If it’s yours, notify Safe Harbor immediately.  They’ll most likely kick him off. : Okay, you all have to help me come up with a way to get back at this : asshole. (Pardon my Russian there.) : : In searching out other versions of Peachtree, I stumbled onto an : auction in which my friend the Iraqui (or whatever) has re-listed the : software he wouldn’t let me buy, and he couldn’t ship properly. : : Here is the description: : : "PEACHTREE ACCOUNTING VER 8.0 FOR 20001,CHECK : WRITING,INVOICING,PAYROLL,INVENTORY,NEW IN ORIGINAL BOX UPC LABEL TAKEN : FOR REBATE SHIPPING $8.00 NOTE:WINNER SHOULD EMAIL SHIPPING ADDRESS AND : CREDIT # JAN RODAK,ID#LEFTCOAST-THREAD-WAS WINNER OF THIS ITEM,SHE : COULD NOT BUY IT,THAT IS WHY I AM LISTING THIS ITEM AGAIN 770-564- 1128 : FAX 770-717-7080. : : : Tell me … did I fall into some black hole, or is my kharma acting up? : Why is this guy such a loser?? : : More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a : little lesson?? : : : grrrr. : : : : — : BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness. : :

– BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a little lesson??

Ignore it, and only bid on items which you intend to and can actually pay for? — It is not the possession of truth, but the success which attends the seeking after it, that enriches the seeker and brings happiness to him.  -Max Planck (1858-1947)

Response:

Is that your personal info in the ad ? Please tell me you already emailed SafeHarbor. tbird88

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, you all have to help me come up with a way to get back at this asshole. (Pardon my Russian there.) In searching out other versions of Peachtree, I stumbled onto an auction in which my friend the Iraqui (or whatever) has re-listed the software he wouldn’t let me buy, and he couldn’t ship properly. Here is the description: "PEACHTREE ACCOUNTING VER 8.0 FOR 20001,CHECK WRITING,INVOICING,PAYROLL,INVENTORY,NEW IN ORIGINAL BOX UPC LABEL TAKEN FOR REBATE SHIPPING $8.00 NOTE:WINNER SHOULD EMAIL SHIPPING ADDRESS AND CREDIT # JAN RODAK,ID#LEFTCOAST-THREAD-WAS WINNER OF THIS ITEM,SHE COULD NOT BUY IT,THAT IS WHY I AM LISTING THIS ITEM AGAIN 770-564-1128 FAX 770-717-7080. Tell me … did I fall into some black hole, or is my kharma acting up? Why is this guy such a loser?? More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a little lesson?? grrrr. — BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

It would help if you would get background info before pontificating. More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a little lesson?? Ignore it, and only bid on items which you intend to and can actually pay for? — It is not the possession of truth, but the success which attends the seeking after it, that enriches the seeker and brings happiness to him.  -Max Planck (1858-1947)

– BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

Is that your phone number the idiot put in there?  It looks like a USA phone number.  If it’s yours, notify Safe Harbor immediately.  They’ll most likely kick him off.

: Okay, you all have to help me come up with a way to get back at this : asshole. (Pardon my Russian there.) : : In searching out other versions of Peachtree, I stumbled onto an : auction in which my friend the Iraqui (or whatever) has re-listed the : software he wouldn’t let me buy, and he couldn’t ship properly. : : Here is the description: : : "PEACHTREE ACCOUNTING VER 8.0 FOR 20001,CHECK : WRITING,INVOICING,PAYROLL,INVENTORY,NEW IN ORIGINAL BOX UPC LABEL TAKEN : FOR REBATE SHIPPING $8.00 NOTE:WINNER SHOULD EMAIL SHIPPING ADDRESS AND : CREDIT # JAN RODAK,ID#LEFTCOAST-THREAD-WAS WINNER OF THIS ITEM,SHE : COULD NOT BUY IT,THAT IS WHY I AM LISTING THIS ITEM AGAIN 770-564-1128 : FAX 770-717-7080. : : : Tell me … did I fall into some black hole, or is my kharma acting up? : Why is this guy such a loser?? : : More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a : little lesson?? : : : grrrr. : : : : — : BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness. : :

Response:

It would help if you would get background info before pontificating.

I read your messages.  You feel the person either misunderstood you was an asshole, or a ‘STUPID FOREIGNER’, without taking in to consideration that expressed your desire to break the contract because you couldn’t pay.  Then he gave you a negative which you may or may not have deserved. And now you’re getting pissy about it, and want to be the bigger of two assholes. I’ll say it again:  move on. If you haven’t already, respond to your negative feedback in your feedback profile with an explanation, then move on. It’s as simple as that. — The leading distinction of magnets is sex… The kind that is found in Troas is black, and of the female sex, and consequently destitute of attractive power.  -Pliny The Elder (23-79)

Response:

I just now e-mailed them. I actually didn’t know that was a violation of policy. And yes, that is my personal info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that your personal info in the ad ? Please tell me you already emailed SafeHarbor. tbird88 Okay, you all have to help me come up with a way to get back at this asshole. (Pardon my Russian there.) In searching out other versions of Peachtree, I stumbled onto an auction in which my friend the Iraqui (or whatever) has re-listed the software he wouldn’t let me buy, and he couldn’t ship properly. Here is the description: "PEACHTREE ACCOUNTING VER 8.0 FOR 20001,CHECK WRITING,INVOICING,PAYROLL,INVENTORY,NEW IN ORIGINAL BOX UPC LABEL TAKEN FOR REBATE SHIPPING $8.00 NOTE:WINNER SHOULD EMAIL SHIPPING ADDRESS AND CREDIT # JAN RODAK,ID#LEFTCOAST-THREAD-WAS WINNER OF THIS ITEM,SHE COULD NOT BUY IT,THAT IS WHY I AM LISTING THIS ITEM AGAIN 770-564- 1128 FAX 770-717-7080. Tell me … did I fall into some black hole, or is my kharma acting up? Why is this guy such a loser?? More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a little lesson?? grrrr. — BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

– BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

Okay, you all have to help me come up with a way to get back at this asshole. (Pardon my Russian there.) In searching out other versions of Peachtree, I stumbled onto an auction in which my friend the Iraqui (or whatever) has re-listed the software he wouldn’t let me buy, and he couldn’t ship properly. Here is the description: "PEACHTREE ACCOUNTING VER 8.0 FOR 20001,CHECK WRITING,INVOICING,PAYROLL,INVENTORY,NEW IN ORIGINAL BOX UPC LABEL TAKEN FOR REBATE SHIPPING $8.00 NOTE:WINNER SHOULD EMAIL SHIPPING ADDRESS AND CREDIT # JAN RODAK,ID#LEFTCOAST-THREAD-WAS WINNER OF THIS ITEM,SHE COULD NOT BUY IT,THAT IS WHY I AM LISTING THIS ITEM AGAIN 770-564-1128 FAX 770-717-7080. Tell me … did I fall into some black hole, or is my kharma acting up? Why is this guy such a loser?? More importantly, what should I do (within bounds) to teach him a little lesson?? grrrr. — BLASPHEMY: The ultimate and original political correctness.

Response:

Question:

I am interested in becoming an accountant. Could anyone tell me what the education requirements are to become an accountant. I need to sign up for classes soon, and any info would be extremely helpful. Thank you for your time.                                     Mike Register

Response:

I am interested in becoming an accountant. Could anyone tell me what the education requirements are to become an accountant.

Depends on your location.  The requirements vary from location to location.  You might want to talk to your school’s guidance counselor. If you’re in the U.S., you might want to consider engineering.  I think you would find it takes the same educational investment as professional accounting and the pay back will be much better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -snip<

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in becoming an accountant. Could anyone tell me what the education requirements are to become an accountant. Depends on your location.  The requirements vary from location to location.  You might want to talk to your school’s guidance counselor. If you’re in the U.S., you might want to consider engineering.  I think you would find it takes the same educational investment as professional accounting and the pay back will be much better. snip< I just finished my qualification her in England. All you need to get on to a foundation course is 4 GCSE’s at C or better/ or equivilent. I would suggest doing the GCSE Accounting first as it goes in to more detail than a foundation or intermediate AAT as the GCSE is more manual bookkeeping and the AAT is on computers.

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Uh…Oh!  Well, you crossed the line.  My guess is that if you ever want another answer out of this group, change your name. Perhaps you’ve confused bookkeeping with accounting, that’s why they call it "QuickBooks" not "QuickAccounting." The other posters have advised you to hire an accountant and I’m going to join the chorus and add that you need to find a "good" accountant.  And, pay attention to your accountant.  You’re attitude reflects a dangerously casual attitude. We’re in the process of cleaning up a three year old small business, with a very modest $150,000 in annual revenues, that cut the wrong corners and is facing, in addition to consulting and legal fees, a little over $10,000 in fines and penalties, as well as a host of back taxes, and fortunate not to be facing a criminal trial.  Around $1,000 a year in total accounting fees, included tax preparation, would have saved all this grief. Do your own bookkeeping, hire an accountant for your accounting. Wins Burke

Response:

Perhaps you’ve confused bookkeeping with accounting, Do your own bookkeeping, hire an accountant for your accounting.

I want to throw in a plug for bookkeepers here. In my opinion, quality accounting requires quality bookkeeping.   If I have a well prepared set of books to work with, my job is easy.  If I don’t have a well prepared set of books to work with, I may not be able to do my job at all. I rarely accept (or keep) clients who insist on doing their own books. Incidentally, most successful owners I know figure their time and focus is better spent in their area of competence than in doing books. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com

Response:

Thanks again for the numerous responses to my question.  Even though I did not get an answer to my specific question I did learn a lot about what accounting is, who accountants are, and what to look for when chosing an accountant. As some of you pointed out correctly, I am new in the business terminology and I confused bookkeeping with accounting.  Sorry for stepping on some sensitive toes.  However, even though I was half joking with my ‘how hard can it be’ remark, I hope and think that doing the bookkeeping of a simple home based massage business is doable without having to pay also an accountant.  Starting such a business with all the licenses and stuff is expensive enough. Gerard

Response:

As others have noted, sure, you should be able to do your own bookkeeping. But you are operating a BUSINESS, and the requirements of doing so include learning how to run a business.  There are liability and insurance implications, tax and bookkeeping implications, and perhaps licensing requirements, for example.  What many others have attempted (with varying degrees of somewhat strained politeness) to explain is that you seem unaware of several issues that may have significant tax/bookkeeping implications; that these issues are more complicated than you believe; that a large number of people who understand these issues believe it is unwise (and/or impractical and/or unprofessional) for you to attempt to learn these issues (and for them to attempt to teach you) in a few brief e-mail exchanges. AFTER you understand some of these issues you will be able to do your own bookkeeping.  And the consensus seems to be that the best way for you to learn is to consult a professional.  It’s a cost of doing business – just like getting the licenses. Vernon Paige.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks again for the numerous responses to my question.  Even though I did not get an answer to my specific question I did learn a lot about what accounting is, who accountants are, and what to look for when chosing an accountant. As some of you pointed out correctly, I am new in the business terminology and I confused bookkeeping with accounting.  Sorry for stepping on some sensitive toes.  However, even though I was half joking with my ‘how hard can it be’ remark, I hope and think that doing the bookkeeping of a simple home based massage business is doable without having to pay also an accountant.  Starting such a business with all the licenses and stuff is expensive enough. Gerard

Response:

Thanks again for the numerous responses to my question.  Even though I did not get an answer to my specific question I did learn a lot about what accounting is, who accountants are, and what to look for when chosing an accountant. As some of you pointed out correctly, I am new in the business terminology and I confused bookkeeping with accounting.  Sorry for stepping on some sensitive toes.  However, even though I was half joking with my ‘how hard can it be’ remark, I hope and think that doing the bookkeeping of a simple home based massage business is doable without having to pay also an accountant.  Starting such a business with all the licenses and stuff is expensive enough. Gerard

well, sooner or later, u’ll find out that an accountant is important to your business!

Response:

Jim, I’d like to thank you for the "plug" for bookkeepers like me.  Good accountants recognize good bookkeeping, and a good bookkeeper can recognize bad accounting.  I depend on our CPA to answer the questions about depreciation, tax laws, etc., and he counts on me to record things the right way, in the right place. I would advise any new business to get their books set up by a professional bookkeeper (in QuickBooks, Peachtree, whatever), so that they don’t have to fix things down the line. Paula

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps you’ve confused bookkeeping with accounting, Do your own bookkeeping, hire an accountant for your accounting. I want to throw in a plug for bookkeepers here. In my opinion, quality accounting requires quality bookkeeping.   If I have a well prepared set of books to work with, my job is easy.  If I don’t have a well prepared set of books to work with, I may not be able to do my job at all. I rarely accept (or keep) clients who insist on doing their own books. Incidentally, most successful owners I know figure their time and focus is better spent in their area of competence than in doing books. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com

Response:

Joyce / Gerard, An an accountant I was amazed at your generalization about how tough it can be.  I am not sure what or why you are posting such questions, tetious in nature, to this newsgroup. In addition, depreciation is basic accounting.  I agree with Jim. Professional liability is a big issue.  Some accountants, those that are not publicly insured are not to provide expertise on these easy topics. So the best advise I can provide, as did Jim, ask a professional.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question.  Thanks for the many responses I received.  Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation.  For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99.  This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard I am one of the people who responded to your prior post. While I frequently respond to questions of a general nature and requests for information that is essentially public, as I did with your prior post, I do not give accounting advice or do student’s homework in this or any other newsgroup.  In my opinion, both are unprofessional and foolish. That is particularly true with regards to "giving accounting advice".  Any professional who does so may very well create professional liability exposure for him / herself with no offsetting fee. Your request here is clearly a request for free accounting advice.  I suggest you retain a qualified professional. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com

Response:

Accounting is hard enough that we went to post secondary school for a good number of years to be able to say we’re ‘Accountants’.  Perhaps you’re confusing bookkeeping with accounting.  They are two very different disciplines.  Also, if you’re in Canada, there is something called the half-year rule that you need to take into account for your tax filing. Depreciation in bookkeeping is different from CCA in taxation.  Consult a professional. Barb

Yes, how hard can accounting be?  Apparently hard enough that you don’t have a clue.  It is in extremely poor taste to insult the people you are trying to beg free advice from.  Get a professional.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question.  Thanks for the many responses I received.  Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation.  For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99.  This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard

Response:

Yes, how hard can accounting be?  Apparently hard enough that you don’t have a clue.  It is in extremely poor taste to insult the people you are trying to beg free advice from.  Get a professional.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question.  Thanks for the many responses I received.  Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation.  For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99.  This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard

Response:

Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question.  Thanks for the many responses I received.  Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation.  For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99.  This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, The question I have today is related to the previous ‘assets vs expense’ question.  Thanks for the many responses I received.  Many of you have recommended to get in contact with an accountant and I am sure we will do that after a while, but before that I would like to do as much as possible myself (How hard can accounting be?) Now, my question is about when to register a depreciation of an asset. In the books and the help function I found how to set a depreciation/expense account up in Quickbooks, but the information I am now missing is what date I should enter the depreciation.  For example: On 9-30-99 we bought a massage table of let’s say $750. Right now I depreciated the first year $750/5=$150 on 9-30-99.  This is in correspondence to the example file that is given in Quickbooks. However, it could well be that it is normal to write of the first year at the end of the year or maybe for tax-purposes it common to depreciate on a monthly bases, so the true depreciation is accounted for at the end of a fiscal year? Any help on this topic would again be highly appreciated. Gerard

I am one of the people who responded to your prior post. While I frequently respond to questions of a general nature and requests for information that is essentially public, as I did with your prior post, I do not give accounting advice or do student’s homework in this or any other newsgroup.  In my opinion, both are unprofessional and foolish. That is particularly true with regards to "giving accounting advice".  Any professional who does so may very well create professional liability exposure for him / herself with no offsetting fee. Your request here is clearly a request for free accounting advice.  I suggest you retain a qualified professional. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com

Response:

Question:

Hi Mike! In my experience, the best way to target market a service like your propose is to make a list of all the prospective customers in the area you are located in,  phone them to get the owner’s/manager’s name and their correct mailing address.  Then send them some information by mail as to what you are offering and the advantages for them to use your services.  Then within 7 to 10 days, phone the person you sent the information to and ask what them if they would be interested in a service like that and if not, why not. You will get a pretty fast and accurate reading on how viable your proposed service is to them. Hope this helps! Peter McGowan

Response:

Thanks for your response. I will give this a try and let you know the type of results I find. Thanks  Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Mike! In my experience, the best way to target market a service like your propose is to make a list of all the prospective customers in the area you are located in,  phone them to get the owner’s/manager’s name and their correct mailing address.  Then send them some information by mail as to what you are offering and the advantages for them to use your services.  Then within 7 to 10 days, phone the person you sent the information to and ask what them if they would be interested in a service like that and if not, why not. You will get a pretty fast and accurate reading on how viable your proposed service is to them. Hope this helps! Peter McGowan

—Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

I’ve been toying with the idea of providing services to various motels and bed and breakfast type operations that wish to farm out their accounting. Would anyone have any background or suggestions on researching this type of market? Thanks Mike —Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

Question:

I,m looking for a good cashflow software package for an accounting practice in melbourne australia anyone have any ideas

Response:

I,m looking for a good cashflow software package for an accounting practice in melbourne australia anyone have any ideas

I use Winforecast. It does monthly P & L’s Balance Sheets, Cash Flow’s Fund Statements and Ratios. It’s UK Web site is www.pase.com.uk (from memory – email me if it doesn’t work) They have an Australianised version distributed by a mob in WA – the web site will give you more info. Raoul Dunk      Salisbury, South Australia "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." — Aristotle Remove NOSPAM to email me. http://adelaidesa.8m.com/rpdunk.htm

Response:

Question:

 Lyons made no mistake.  David, do you think you made a mistake?  I got my license when I was 16.      I’m now 20.

Hey!  That would qualify you for "punk" status, wouldn’t it?   Fossil? Did you get that from "Children’s Book of Dinosaurs"? Well then, turn to page 289. See that caveman with the big club standing next to the dead Brontosaurus? That’s me. Old habits die hard, I guess…  How old are you, anyways?  We should have a new thread for everyone to state their age.  That would be great for everyone to have a better idea of who we are talking to.

As if a chronological accounting of one’s life has any relativity to the merits of one’s argument.  There are 20-year-olds who make you look like a Downs baby, and there are 60-year-olds that make me look….well, old.   Just because Emily and I know how to spell I.Q. doesn’t justify your feeble jealousy. I’m smart enough to be reeling you in.  Well, I guess that doesn’t say very much.  What am I supposed to be jealous of?  

Again with the "I’m the Center of the Universe" approach…  You may call it "reeling us in", if you wish.  But if someone comes to MY house and sprays graffiti on the walls, I call it "going upside his head with a two by four". "Reeling us in"?  I repeat:  You’re an itch, a flea, a scab begging to be pulled off.  Nothing more.   dwight P.S.:  Your TBA number has been revoked.  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – UPDATE TO MY POST BEFORE I SEND IT MR. SD = David Lyons I don’t understand Mr. SD.  In one post he contributes to the group, and then in the next he is trying to is trying to harrass the members who he will eventually turn to if he ever needs advice.  SD what is your agenda?  Are you trying to drive away the contributing members of this group? CJ, not that you need any help defending yourself, but you can be rest assured the newsgroup members are in your corner. Patrick Black/Grey ‘87 5 liter 5 speed LX

  I started out all in good fun.  Then, I simply stated that FossilJet’s and Ty85gris’ cyber sex in this newsgroup was totally inappropriate (notice that it has stopped, thanks to me) and then I’m getting flamed by a lot of you. Haven’t you been reading my conversation with Lyons about street tires vs. slicks/cheaters at the track?  FossilJet must be emailing you all and convincing you to gang up on me. SD! TBA #666

Response:

  I have never flamed you.  Well, once.  That’s what started all this.  Now, I’m just reeling you in.  When you’re close enough, I’m going to bash you over the head with a baseball bat.  You should really get some lessons from Lyons.     Haven’t you noticed David never comes to your rescue? He doesn’t need to get in a fire fight with me or anyone else on your behalf. Stand on your own two feet. Quit kissing up to him so he can sit down already.

  David, did you see what Mr. Jet here wrote?  I think he’s calling YOU out! You better watch out FossilJet, David has a torch compared to your match (while I have a flame thrower). Since you’re are still reeling me in, I gave you a chance in the "my ISP is down" thread. Read it carefully. Follow the directions.

  What are you talking about?  Enlighten me, oh wise one. SD! TBA #666

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Well, halfway down. I can post but not retrieve.   Too bad it wasn’t the other way around. I have seen a few articles from Saturday and only one today. Oddly, the only group that is working for me is the alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.autos group.   Ok, thanks for telling us. I cross-posted a reply into this group and it showed up on my screen right away! Very confusing.   Cross-posting is a violation of netiquette.    Not when both groups are dealing with Fords, asswipe. What’s worse, and infinitely more infantile, is modifying someone’s quote. Like adding "erotica", above. I bet you and your other grade school circle jerk buddies whacking each other in your bedroom got a great giggle out of that.

  I thought you would like that. Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all. Until the ISP gets it together I’m out of any conversations. Oh darn.   We’re all very dissapointed…….NOT!  Let’s party, everyone!    You couldn’t flame me if someone handed you a Bic lighter and a gallon of kerosene. Trying to get anybody here to join an anti-CJ is going to leave you alone in your gayness. (Your used to that, aren’t you?). Only a true coward spews really weak shit at others when he thinks they can’t respond.

  I have never flamed you.  Well, once.  That’s what started all this.  Now, I’m just reeling you in.  When you’re close enough, I’m going to bash you over the head with a baseball bat.  You should really get some lessons from Lyons.    Are you STILL trying to pass off those pictures as your car, you wannabe? Didn’t you notice there are two different Mustangs there? Maybe there is a Troll tutoring school within bicycle riding distance of Sodomy Elementary. Sign up now and come back after your face clears up.       CobraJet

  Actually, it’s the same car.  Have you heard of modifications, Mr. Jet? The first one is with the stock 1979 body pieces and the second one is with the addition of ‘87-’93 LX front and back bumper covers and a 3 inch cowl induction hood ( I couldn’t use the stock 1979 hood because it wouldn’t fit, and I decided why not get a cowl induction hood instead of just a regular, stock ‘87-’93 hood).  You seem to be the ONLY one who is disputing the fact that it is my car.  What’s your problem? SD! TBA #666

Response:

  Hahaha, I don’t have an Explorer.  I have a Mustang.  Have you seen the pictures of it?  http://g50mc.org/images/SideBurnout.jpg http://g50mc.org/images/Launch2.jpg    Are you still trying this shit? Just because David made the mistake of posting those pics doesn’t mean that is your car in them. Your constant abrasive pleas for recognition reiterate the fact that you are not old enough to drive.   Lyons made no mistake.  David, do you think you made a mistake?  I got my license when I was 16.  I’m now 20.

     I’m sure he does, especially after the way you talk to him since, you disrespectful little bastard. I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t yank your fake pictures off his site. You have no class, do you?   Emily, Emily, Emily……you’re slowly turning into an old fossil like CobraJet.  Stop, before it’s too late!      Fossil? Did you get that from "Children’s Book of Dinosaurs"? Well then, turn to page 289. See that caveman with the big club standing next to the dead Brontosaurus? That’s me. Old habits die hard, I guess…   How old are you, anyways?  We should have a new thread for everyone to state their age.  That would be great for everyone to have a better idea of who we are talking to.

    I’m 41, you booger-nosed little wimp. An age thread? How stupid. If you can’t tell I’m your superior by now then you are even more a fool than I thought, if that’s possible. But you have ALWAYS had more trouble learning things than the other children in your class, haven’t you? (Don’t think I didn’t notice the symptoms).      Just because Emily and I know how to spell I.Q. doesn’t justify your feeble jealousy.   I’m smart enough to be reeling you in.  Well, I guess that doesn’t say very much.  What am I supposed to be jealous of?

   OK, let’s play. You’ve done such a marvelous job reeling me in, unbeknownst to my unwitting self, and the others here who are sitting slack-jawed, awash in their naivete. Let me have it! Amaze me! Humiliate me! Make me grovel in the shadow of your exaltedness, you dastardly devil! Now’s your chance to make the hounds of hell howl in your hallowed presence. I’m waiting to experience the final sanguinary evacuation, the ganglia-high separation of cranium and torso, the definitive verbal vasectomy, the intestinal evisceration that only YOU dareth to slather upon my unworthy hide!     The clock ticketh, oh pungent pubescent. I await.        CobraJet SD! TBA #666

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Response:

    <To Tfrog93 You forget, oh chicken-legged one, that I have enough cars to keep me wrench-wielding for many years to come. Oddly, my father was always very good at crossword puzzles. He drives sensible, economical cars.   My dad is good at crossword puzzles too.  He has a ‘ 94 Q45, but it is getting old, and is looking to trade it in.   Oddly, he has no plans to trade in his ‘85 S-10 Blazer.  Could it be the 6-71 sitting on the SBC that is under and through the hood?  *I* think so  =)

My Dad likes to read, and can’t afford to race competitvely anymore. And he used to go round bendy bits too. And my 76 year old grandfather is trying to work out how he can prop up a superbike with his "not as strong as they used to be" legs. He wants the power, but not the weight.   To remember why I look at young girls all I have to do is glance downward.   And then CJ sees that beer gut instead of his toes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now give your bench-anchored butt a heave and get on that bicycle, young man!       Cobra-it’s-spring-in-Arizona-where’s-the-closest-mall-Jet   dwight-need-a-last-name-?       Yes you do, for closure. .     Loan him one of your middle ones  till Dwight gets one of his own.             Emily

Willikers! Spewin I missed out on this insignificant little scumbucket. If I start spitting out this garbage, can I be noticed too? 20 years old huh? I remember being 20, geez, it was only 3 years ago, And I didn’t really know shit. I knew how to make something go fast, but not really fast. I also knew how to 1: Hit things 2: roll things and 3: get a sensible car. What’s that you say, a sensible car? Yes, a pussy little 1.5 litre nissan. But that’s just saving cash for something decent. Now If I can figure how to fit a blower under the hood, and some tubs into these excessively curved guards, I might consider the "sensible car" well spent. Just because you own a "fast" car, still doesn’t mean you know anything. But most people here defy that theory right?

Response:

I have never flamed you.  Well, once.  That’s what started all this.  Now, I’m just reeling you in.  When you’re close enough, I’m going to bash you over the head with a baseball bat.  You should really get some lessons from Lyons.    Haven’t you noticed David never comes to your rescue? He doesn’t need to get in a fire fight with me or anyone else on your behalf. Stand on your own two feet. Quit kissing up to him so he can sit down already. Since you’re are still reeling me in, I gave you a chance in the "my ISP is down" thread. Read it carefully. Follow the directions.    CobraJet

CJ, Mr. SD is Super Dave or better known as Mr. David Lyons. Patrick Black/Grey ‘87 5 liter 5 speed LX

Response:

    <To Tfrog93 You forget, oh chicken-legged one, that I have enough cars to keep me wrench-wielding for many years to come. Oddly, my father was always very good at crossword puzzles. He drives sensible, economical cars.

   My dad is good at crossword puzzles too.  He has a ‘ 94 Q45, but it is getting old, and is looking to trade it in.   Oddly, he has no plans to trade in his ‘85 S-10 Blazer.  Could it be the 6-71 sitting on the SBC that is under and through the hood?  *I* think so  =)   To remember why I look at young girls all I have to do is glance downward.

   And then CJ sees that beer gut instead of his toes.  Now give your bench-anchored butt a heave and get on that bicycle, young man!       Cobra-it’s-spring-in-Arizona-where’s-the-closest-mall-Jet   dwight-need-a-last-name-?       Yes you do, for closure. .

     Loan him one of your middle ones  till Dwight gets one of his own.              Emily ‘85 Cutlass  383, 700, 3.70 posi, Global West Suspension, NOS cheater 12.60’s on the engine 11.34  on  NOS suspension

Response:

UPDATE TO MY POST BEFORE I SEND IT MR. SD = David Lyons You couldn’t flame me if someone handed you a Bic lighter and a gallon of kerosene. Trying to get anybody here to join an anti-CJ is going to leave you alone in your gayness.

I don’t understand Mr. SD.  In one post he contributes to the group, and then in the next he is trying to is trying to harrass the members who he will eventually turn to if he ever needs advice.  SD what is your agenda?  Are you trying to drive away the contributing members of this group?   CJ, not that you need any help defending yourself, but you can be rest assured the newsgroup members are in your corner.   (Your used to that, aren’t you?). Only a true coward spews really weak shit at others when he thinks they can’t respond.   Are you STILL trying to pass off those pictures as your car, you wannabe? Didn’t you notice there are two different Mustangs there? Maybe there is a Troll tutoring school within bicycle riding distance of Sodomy Elementary. Sign up now and come back after your face clears up.

Patrick Black/Grey ‘87 5 liter 5 speed LX

Response:

    Persona non gratis? That’s very good, D. Did you go to private school too, or do you know that stuff because you’re "slightly older"?     Cobra-gots-an-amusing-middle-name-Jet No, I was a public.  I used to (emphasis on "used to") read…a lot. Everything I could get my hands on.  Also, my penchant for crossword puzzles may show through, periodically.

    I used to read a lot, too. Still do when I can. Also, my penchant for violent Sword & Sorcery has shown through, periodically. When you get to be my age, Cobra-on-the-decline-Jet, you’ll have plenty of time to do crosswords, too, as you sit on the mall bench watching young girls walk by, and try to remember why it is that you watch them.

   You forget, oh chicken-legged one, that I have enough cars to keep me wrench-wielding for many years to come. Oddly, my father was always very good at crossword puzzles. He drives sensible, economical cars.    To remember why I look at young girls all I have to do is glance downward. Now give your bench-anchored butt a heave and get on that bicycle, young man!        Cobra-it’s-spring-in-Arizona-where’s-the-closest-mall-Jet   dwight-need-a-last-name-?

       Yes you do, for closure. .

Response:

    Persona non gratis? That’s very good, D. Did you go to private school too, or do you know that stuff because you’re "slightly older"?     Cobra-gots-an-amusing-middle-name-Jet

No, I was a public.  I used to (emphasis on "used to") read…a lot. Everything I could get my hands on.  Also, my penchant for crossword puzzles may show through, periodically.   When you get to be my age, Cobra-on-the-decline-Jet, you’ll have plenty of time to do crosswords, too, as you sit on the mall bench watching young girls walk by, and try to remember why it is that you watch them.   dwight-need-a-last-name-?

Response:

  I have never flamed you.  Well, once.  That’s what started all this.  Now, I’m just reeling you in.  When you’re close enough, I’m going to bash you over the head with a baseball bat.  You should really get some lessons from Lyons.

    Haven’t you noticed David never comes to your rescue? He doesn’t need to get in a fire fight with me or anyone else on your behalf. Stand on your own two feet. Quit kissing up to him so he can sit down already. Since you’re are still reeling me in, I gave you a chance in the "my ISP is down" thread. Read it carefully. Follow the directions.     CobraJet SD! TBA #666

.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hahaha, I don’t have an Explorer.  I have a Mustang.  Have you seen the pictures of it?  http://g50mc.org/images/SideBurnout.jpg http://g50mc.org/images/Launch2.jpg Yes, we’ve seen A picture of a Mustang…  And we’ve seen your previous work on the newsgroups.   Sorry, Shithead, but you’re still persona non gratis, and will stay that way for quite some time.  Attacking Mr. Cobra-where’s-my-Server-Jet while he’s down will no ingratiate you to anyone here.   Don’t you have an appointment over on the rec.ego.self-absorbed newsgroup?   D!

     Persona non gratis? That’s very good, D. Did you go to private school too, or do you know that stuff because you’re "slightly older"?      Cobra-gots-an-amusing-middle-name-Jet .

Response:

Hahaha, I don’t have an Explorer.  I have a Mustang.       Have you seen the pictures of it?  http://g50mc.org/images/SideBurnout.jpg http://g50mc.org/images/Launch2.jpg

Yes, we’ve seen A picture of a Mustang…  And we’ve seen your previous work on the newsgroups.   Sorry, Shithead, but you’re still persona non gratis, and will stay that way for quite some time.  Attacking Mr. Cobra-where’s-my-Server-Jet while he’s down will no ingratiate you to anyone here.   Don’t you have an appointment over on the rec.ego.self-absorbed newsgroup?   D!

Response:

  Hahaha, I don’t have an Explorer.  I have a Mustang.  Have you seen the pictures of it?  http://g50mc.org/images/SideBurnout.jpg http://g50mc.org/images/Launch2.jpg    Are you still trying this shit? Just because David made the mistake of posting those pics doesn’t mean that is your car in them. Your constant abrasive pleas for recognition reiterate the fact that you are not old enough to drive.

  Lyons made no mistake.  David, do you think you made a mistake?  I got my license when I was 16.  I’m now 20.   Emily, Emily, Emily……you’re slowly turning into an old fossil like CobraJet.  Stop, before it’s too late!      Fossil? Did you get that from "Children’s Book of Dinosaurs"? Well then, turn to page 289. See that caveman with the big club standing next to the dead Brontosaurus? That’s me. Old habits die hard, I guess…

  How old are you, anyways?  We should have a new thread for everyone to state their age.  That would be great for everyone to have a better idea of who we are talking to.      Just because Emily and I know how to spell I.Q. doesn’t justify your feeble jealousy.

  I’m smart enough to be reeling you in.  Well, I guess that doesn’t say very much.  What am I supposed to be jealous of? SD! TBA #666

Response:

    Well, halfway down. I can post but not retrieve. I have seen a few articles from Saturday and only one today. Oddly, the only group that is working for me is the alt.binaries.pictures.autos group. I cross-posted a reply into this group and it showed up on my screen right away! Very confusing. Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all. Until the ISP gets it together I’m out of any conversations. Oh darn.      CobraJet .

Response:

Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all.

Here’s a reply, hope you can read it.                                                   Lil

Response:

Hey, CJ are you there.  Did you get this one?  I’ve seen a few of your replies today. riored97cobra#301 TBA #2

Response:

    Well, halfway down. I can post but not retrieve.

  Too bad it wasn’t the other way around. I have seen a few articles from Saturday and only one today. Oddly, the only group that is working for me is the alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.autos group.

  Ok, thanks for telling us. I cross-posted a reply into this group and it showed up on my screen right away! Very confusing.

  Cross-posting is a violation of netiquette. Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all. Until the ISP gets it together I’m out of any conversations. Oh darn.

  We’re all very dissapointed…….NOT!  Let’s party, everyone!      CobraJet

SD! TBA #666

Response:

    Well, halfway down. I can post but not retrieve.  Too bad it wasn’t the other way around.

   Oh, quick, attack while he is down!!  Doh!! I have seen a few articles from Saturday and only one today. Oddly, the only group that is working for me is the alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.autos group.  Ok, thanks for telling us.

   You’re interested?  I’m sure CJ is touched, truly touched. I cross-posted a reply into this group and it showed up on my screen right away! Very confusing.  Cross-posting is a violation of netiquette.

    It’s nicer than dumping used oil in the strom drains.  And I seem to NG’s.  "Pot, meet Kettle." Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all. Until the ISP gets it together I’m out of any conversations. Oh darn.  We’re all very dissapointed…….NOT!  Let’s party, everyone!

    "Rocking out" with Zamphier, Master of the pan flute, and Barry Manalowe while imbibing milk and nibbling cupcakes till your 8:30 bedtime is not a party.              Emily ‘85 Cutlass  383, 700, 3.70 posi, Global West Suspension, NOS cheater 12.60’s on the engine 11.34  on  NOS suspension

Response:

    It’s nicer than dumping used oil in the strom drains.  And I seem to NG’s.  "Pot, meet Kettle."

  Hahaha, I don’t have an Explorer.  I have a Mustang.  Have you seen the pictures of it?  http://g50mc.org/images/SideBurnout.jpg http://g50mc.org/images/Launch2.jpg Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all. Until the ISP gets it together I’m out of any conversations. Oh darn.  We’re all very dissapointed…….NOT!  Let’s party, everyone!     "Rocking out" with Zamphier, Master of the pan flute, and Barry Manalowe while imbibing milk and nibbling cupcakes till your 8:30 bedtime is not a party.

  Emily, Emily, Emily……you’re slowly turning into an old fossil like CobraJet.  Stop, before it’s too late! SD! TBA #666

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Well, halfway down. I can post but not retrieve.   Too bad it wasn’t the other way around. I have seen a few articles from Saturday and only one today. Oddly, the only group that is working for me is the alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.autos group.   Ok, thanks for telling us. I cross-posted a reply into this group and it showed up on my screen right away! Very confusing.   Cross-posting is a violation of netiquette.

   Not when both groups are dealing with Fords, asswipe. What’s worse, and infinitely more infantile, is modifying someone’s quote. Like adding "erotica", above. I bet you and your other grade school circle jerk buddies whacking each other in your bedroom got a great giggle out of that. Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all. Until the ISP gets it together I’m out of any conversations. Oh darn.   We’re all very dissapointed…….NOT!  Let’s party, everyone!

   You couldn’t flame me if someone handed you a Bic lighter and a gallon of kerosene. Trying to get anybody here to join an anti-CJ is going to leave you alone in your gayness. (Your used to that, aren’t you?). Only a true coward spews really weak shit at others when he thinks they can’t respond.    Are you STILL trying to pass off those pictures as your car, you wannabe? Didn’t you notice there are two different Mustangs there? Maybe there is a Troll tutoring school within bicycle riding distance of Sodomy Elementary. Sign up now and come back after your face clears up.       CobraJet      CobraJet SD! TBA #666

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Response:

    It’s nicer than dumping used oil in the strom drains.  And I seem to NG’s.  "Pot, meet Kettle."   Hahaha, I don’t have an Explorer.  I have a Mustang.  Have you seen the pictures of it?  http://g50mc.org/images/SideBurnout.jpg http://g50mc.org/images/Launch2.jpg

   Are you still trying this shit? Just because David made the mistake of posting those pics doesn’t mean that is your car in them. Your constant abrasive pleas for recognition reiterate the fact that you are not old enough to drive. Anyway, maybe someone can occasionally reply to this post to see if that works at all. Until the ISP gets it together I’m out of any conversations. Oh darn.  We’re all very dissapointed…….NOT!  Let’s party, everyone!     "Rocking out" with Zamphier, Master of the pan flute, and Barry Manalowe while imbibing milk and nibbling cupcakes till your 8:30 bedtime is not a party.

    Very off-the-wall, Emily. I love it. You must have seen the pics of Sausage Diddler at www.babyboy.com/mommysuckles/beddybye.html.   Emily, Emily, Emily……you’re slowly turning into an old fossil like CobraJet.  Stop, before it’s too late!

     Fossil? Did you get that from "Children’s Book of Dinosaurs"? Well then, turn to page 289. See that caveman with the big club standing next to the dead Brontosaurus? That’s me. Old habits die hard, I guess…      Just because Emily and I know how to spell I.Q. doesn’t justify your feeble jealousy.      CobraJet SD! TBA #666

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And I seem to NG’s.  "Pot, meet Kettle."  Hahaha, I don’t have an Explorer.  I have a Mustang.      Have you seen the pictures of it?  http://g50mc.org/images/SideBurnout.jpg http://g50mc.org/images/Launch2.jpg

   Hey dumbass, I never said you *had* an Explorer.  And the car is cute. 6.45’s?  Still too slow for me to have to  worry about it.  God help you if you tried to corner in that thing.  BTW, why does one picture have a Mustang with 4 headlights and in the other it has two?    Emily, Emily, Emily……you’re slowly turning into an old fossil like CobraJet.  Stop, before it’s too late!

    And join you’re little coterie of mafficks?  I think not.                Emily ‘85 Cutlass  383, 700, 3.70 posi, Global West Suspension, NOS cheater 12.60’s on the engine 11.34  on  NOS suspension

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Question:

Rowe) writes:

# # The new _Technology Review_ mentions a study by Paul Joskow and # Donald Marron, which claims that efforts to reduce electrical # consumption cost (or can cost) more than the cost of building # additional generating capacity. In contrast to Amory Lovins, # who put the cost of _saving_ a kwh at 0.6 cents, and the EPRI, which # estimated 2.6 cents, Joskow claims the "real" costs range from # 0.6 to 181 cents per kwh saved. #   Has anyone who has seen the splease # provide a citation (and perhaps a comment)?. Firstly, how much electricity are they saying is saved at this high cost? Lovins claim is that 75% of all US electricity use could be saved at a cost of 0.6 cents/kWh. saved He says the price falls to virtually nil when you reduce the amount saved to 50%. The point I make is that the price does vary depending on how much you want to save. For example, you actually get a negative cost if you save electricity by using energy efficient light bulbs(this is a large contribution to the 0.6 cents/kWh quote from Lovins). The range of costs you quote is something I could believe but it could still fit in with Lovins quotes and EPRI’s quotes. I’ll need to get more details on how much electricity can be saved at what price from this report before I can comment further. James — *  James Hammerton               *  If Pascal is equivalent to the     * *                                *  car where steering is done         * *                                *  recursively using the gearstick.   *

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Firstly, how much electricity are they saying is saved at this high cost? Lovins claim is that 75% of all US electricity use could be saved at a cost of 0.6 cents/kWh.

Less than a cent for _all_ of those kWh?  Are you sure?  I thought that was the cost for the initial savings.  I’ll have to look at his cost vs savings graph again. James — *  James Hammerton               *  If Pascal is equivalent to the     * *                                *  car where steering is done         * *                                *  recursively using the gearstick.   *

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Firstly, how much electricity are they saying is saved at this high cost? Lovins claim is that 75% of all US electricity use could be saved at a cost of 0.6 cents/kWh. Less than a cent for _all_ of those kWh?  Are you sure?  I thought that was the cost for the initial savings.  I’ll have to look at his cost vs savings graph again.

From another posting, I surmise that the ‘leger de main’ being used here is this:  I buy a CF bulb that has payback in 6 months, but a 4 year life span.  I then project it’s ‘cost’ over the life of the bulb and get a negative cost.  I then take this negative cost and average it in with some other, high cost, conversion to get an ‘average’ of 0.6/kWh. If this is, in fact, what was done; then Lovins has studied how to lie with statistics… — ‘Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has  genius, power and magic in it.’  -  Goethe I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.

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It would have behooved everyone if they had actually gone and read the piece in Technology Review before posting. The study that disputed Lovins was not about the bottom-up engineering cost of saving energy, but rather about the cost of utility programs. Typically, these programs offer rebates or subsidies for installation of certain energy saving technologies.  There are all sorts of extra costs here: administration, advertising, "free riders", and so on. An example: I know the local utility runs rebates on CF bulbs, so I tend to wait buying them until the next rebate program.  If there was no rebate program I would buy them anyway.  I am a "free rider", and the utility saves less net energy than they think they will.  The utility doesn’t really care, as they can charge the ratepayers anyway.         Paul F. Dietz

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Firstly, how much electricity are they saying is saved at this high cost? Lovins claim is that 75% of all US electricity use could be saved at a cost of 0.6 cents/kWh. Less than a cent for _all_ of those kWh?  Are you sure?  I thought that was the cost for the initial savings.  I’ll have to look at his cost vs savings graph again.

Oops, should have said an average of 0.6 cents/kWh saved, this figure including the -ve cents/kWh of lighting plus some more expensive stuff. James — *  James Hammerton               *  If Pascal is equivalent to the     * *                                *  car where steering is done         * *                                *  recursively using the gearstick.   *

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It would have behooved everyone if they had actually gone and read the piece in Technology Review before posting. The study that disputed Lovins was not about the bottom-up engineering cost of saving energy, but rather about the cost of utility programs. Typically, these programs offer rebates or subsidies for installation of certain energy saving technologies.  There are all sorts of extra costs here: administration, advertising, "free riders", and so on. An example: I know the local utility runs rebates on CF bulbs, so I tend to wait buying them until the next rebate program.  If there was no rebate program I would buy them anyway.  I am a "free rider", and the utility saves less net energy than they think they will.  The utility doesn’t really care, as they can charge the ratepayers anyway.    Paul F. Dietz

But the total energy saved due to efficiency is still the same.  All this means is that it gets shifted to the DSM category from the "naturally occurring" category.  And while it does change some cost accounting for the utility (which may have been the whole point of the Tech Review piece), it doesn’t change the effect on the need to build new capacity. The EPRI study, with which I am more familiar, split these two components into separate categories.  I am not sure whether their naturally occurring component assumed active DSM, though I think that it did not. BTW, my local utility also has a rebate program for CF bulbs, but I have never gotten the offer (its only offered to certain customers).  Probably because my usage is already so low —

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(E. Michael Smith) writes:

writes: Hammerton) writes:

# # Firstly, how much electricity are they saying is saved at this high cost? # Lovins claim is that 75% of all US electricity use could be saved at a # cost of 0.6 cents/kWh. # # Less than a cent for _all_ of those kWh?  Are you sure?  I thought that # was the cost for the initial savings.  I’ll have to look at his cost vs # savings graph again. # # From another posting, I surmise that the ‘leger de main’ being used here # is this:  I buy a CF bulb that has payback in 6 months, but a 4 year # life span.  I then project it’s ‘cost’ over the life of the bulb and # get a negative cost.  I then take this negative cost and average it # in with some other, high cost, conversion to get an ‘average’ of 0.6/kWh. # # If this is, in fact, what was done; then Lovins has studied how to lie # with statistics… How about this then. This is what I think he’s done. He’s taken the relative costs of normal lighting and CF lighting and finds the latter considerably cheaper. He then suggests that the cost of saving electricity by using the CF lights instead of the normal ones is the cost of using them as opposed to continuing to use the others(I don’t find this unreasonable), in other words the cost of using CF light bulbs minus the cost of continuing to use the normal lights, which being considerably larger than the former, leads to a negative result.The point is that he is advocating replacing inefficient technologies with efficient ones, and therefore the costs associated with doing so depend on the cost of the new technology set against the cost of staying with the current technology. I don’t consider this to be lying.(The point is that the negative cost arises as the avoided that would otherwise arise from not changing). James — *  James Hammerton               *  If Pascal is equivalent to the     * *                                *  car where steering is done         * *                                *  recursively using the gearstick.   *

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Letters Editor _Technology Review_ FAX 617-258-7264, voice 253-8284 27 January 1993 To the Editor: Professor Paul Joskow’s and Mr. Donald Marron’s paper (February/March) does not, as they and your "Reporter" state, "contradict" the costs of saving electricity calculated or observed by me, EPRI, DOE, or anyone else, because none of these costs are comparable to Joskow and Marron’s, and theirs are meaningless.  They are simply the highly aggregated, poorly characterized, opaquely recalculated costs of savings delivered by a small group of anecdotally chosen utility programs, wildly divergent in content and method, dubiously representative, and often inferior in design or execution to modern industry norms.  (Anyone who saves electricity for $1.81/kW-h should be fired, and probably was.)  Most of their costs are at or near the literature’s high end: their mean commercial/industrial savings, for example, cost 4-6 times the typical medians reported in a New York State-sponsored review of over 200 programs by 58 utilities through 1988, and many costs have fallen since then. Rocky Mountain Institute’s analyses aren’t comparable, let alone "contradicted," because they show the net internal social cost of buying, installing, and maintaining *optimized* packages of *modern* electricity-saving technologies in *all* uses and sectors.  What your reporter called the "simple calculations" underlying these "estimates" exceed 2,000 dense pages; rest on *empirical* *measurements* cited in 4,000+ sourcenotes; are used by over 100 utilities and 150 other organizations in 35 countries; are consistent with a huge body of utility experience; are undisputed; and weren’t read by Joskow and Marron. Everyone who examines utilities’ field results — many now rigorously evaluated — finds a huge range of costs.  Joskow and Marron concluded from its high end that negawatts must be costly; but even one cheap program disproves that.  The correct conclusion is that programs’ quality varies widely, dozens do deliver extremely cheap negawatts, and the rest should emulate them.  This is what actually happens.  Vigilant regulators and intervenors ensure that utilities don’t waste customers’ money.  In the best jurisdictions, utilities’ profits even depend *directly* on how much they prove they saved how cheaply.  Programs that aren’t proven cost-effective get stopped or changed.  Unfortunately, Joskow and Marron’s paper is an obstacle, not a contribution, to this learning process. Ours and others’ analyses explicitly count marketing, administrative, measurement, and other overhead costs separately, because they’re program-specific and raise good programs’ total delivered costs only slightly.  (Southern California Edison in 1984, for example, reported them to total 0.065 cents/kW-h in residential and 0.031 cents/kW-h in other sectors — less than 1% of electricity tariffs.)  The other "hidden" costs all unimportant, and often fallacious. Joskow and Marron’s paper does not cite, describe, present, or analyze data in a way anyone can scrutinize or reproduce.  The limited and unscientific data it does include do not even support its conclusions.  A year ago, as I told your reporter, I sent Professor Joskow a polite but devastating 12-page private review of the draft paper, explaining all this in detail, and concluding it would be "difficult to get . . . published in a journal refereed by people familiar with the subject" unless rewritten from scratch.  He published it essentially unchanged.  Now your article, by parroting its false claims, puts me in the embarrassing position of having to state publicly, in the interest of good science and ethical journalism, my astonishment that an economist and a University of such stature have produced and publicized such sophomoric work.  They should be ashamed of themselves. Sincerely, Amory B. Lovins, Vice President and Director of Research Rocky Mountain Institute

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writes: # I looked at the graph of costs vs electricity saved and it may be # that the average cost, however he calculated it, is less than a # cent/kWh.  I don’t know whether Lovins actually said that 75% # could be saved at .6 cents/kWh or not, but it would seem obvious # that there is a curve involved, so as long as it is represented # as an average, it should not be a problem. He makes precisely that claim in his essay for Global Warming: The Greenpeace Report, along with a claim that 50% could be saved at no overall cost! He did provide a graph and some references for this, and mentions that the cost performance data used was empirical. Further details of these calculations would presumably be in the references he gave. James — *  James Hammerton               *  If Pascal is equivalent to the     * *                                *  car where steering is done         * *                                *  recursively using the gearstick.   *

Response:

The new _Technology Review_ mentions a study by Paul Joskow and Donald Marron, which claims that efforts to reu duce electrical consumption cost (or can cost) more than the cost of building additional generating capacity. In contrast to Amory Lovins, who put the cost of _saving_ a kwh at 0.6 cents, and the EPRI, which estimated 2.6 cents, Joskow claims the "real" costs range from 0.6 to 181 cents per kwh saved.  Has anyone who has seen the study      please provide a citation (and perhaps a comment?)  )?.

I don’t think a fixed cost can be assigned.  The law of diminishing returns applies here.  Saving the first 5% is easy, cheap (even free, such as getting into the habit of turning out lights when not needed).  The next 5% is more difficult and expensive, such as upgrading to CF bulbs, timers, etc.  The next 5% is more difficult, and so on, until the last 5%, where if eliminated puts us back into the 1800s technology, with no electricity. -Mike

Response:

The new _Technology Review_ mentions a study by Paul Joskow and Donald Marron, which claims that efforts to reu duce electrical consumption cost (or can cost) more than the cost of building additional generating capacity. In contrast to Amory Lovins, who put the cost of _saving_ a kwh at 0.6 cents, and the EPRI, which

estimated 2.6 cents, Joskow claims the "real" costs range from 0.6 to 181 cents per kwh saved.  Has anyone who has seen the study      please provide a citation (and perhaps a comment?)  )?.

I don’t see any disagreement here.  Lovins says the cost of saving a kWh is 0.6 at present.  Joskow claims it ranges from the low of 0.6 (where I presume we are today, since little has been done) up to 181 for some really hard to do stuff. Lovins says it is cheap to start, Joskow is pointing out that it gets more expensive after you’ve done the cheap stuff. I don’t think a fixed cost can be assigned.  The law of diminishing returns applies here.  Saving the first 5% is easy, cheap (even free, such as getting into the habit of turning out lights when not needed).  The next 5% is more difficult and expensive, such as upgrading to CF bulbs, timers, etc.  The next 5% is more difficult, and so on, until the last 5%, where if eliminated puts us back into the 1800s technology, with no electricity.

I attended a PG&E seminar series on energy savings (DSM).  The lighting section pointed out that THE single most effective thing to do was to give people a light switch and train them to turn off the lights when not in the room!  AFTER that, came all the motion sensors, CFs, time-of-day automated controls, conversion from t-12 to t-8 lights, etc. (BTW, I’ll post more tidbits from this as time permits…. but just a brief note: It didn’t matter if it was lights, or AC or what, there was plenty of technology available to cut energy consumption…) — ‘Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has  genius, power and magic in it.’  -  Goethe I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.

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The new _Technology Review_ mentions a study by Paul Joskow and Donald Marron, which claims that efforts to reu duce electrical consumption cost (or can cost) more than the cost of building additional generating capacity. In contrast to Amory Lovins, who put the cost of _saving_ a kwh at 0.6 cents, and the EPRI, which estimated 2.6 cents, Joskow claims the "real" costs range from 0.6 to 181 cents per kwh saved.   Has anyone who has seen the study      please provide a citation (and perhaps a comment?)  )?.

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