Question:

There are people on this ng who are working.

I was working as a computer systems administrator until last October. I had really serious hopes and so did my pdoc of getting back to that this year some time. It’s still likely I’ll try to work at the same company, but after a big reorg yesterday, I’m not sure what I’ll wind up doing, or whether it will suite me as well. But that’s close to working! — Manic depression befriends me, Hear his voice; Sanity now it’s beyond me, There’s no choice    -Ozzy Osbourne

Response:

You are not your roommate.  Some bipolar people work, some don’t. "Disabled", imo, is a legal term used to describe people who are unable to do a certain task or tasks.  It isn’t an all-purpose label.  Bipolarity is a "disability" to varying degrees, for different people. You can work if you believe you can and if you’re willing to try.  If you couldn’t work, you wouldn’t need to ask about working.  You’d know it. I’ve been diagnosed for 4 years, and was bipolar since I was a teenager. During that time I’ve earned a college degree, worked for the same company for 10 years, and gotten married.  It hasn’t always been easy, but I know myself.  I don’t think I’d do very well on disability – even during summer breaks when I was in college, I would "sink into my own bellybutton", sleeping odd hours, watching tv, reading, and getting more and more unfocused on life until I had the structure of classes to go back to.  I need outside structure.  I need the rewards associated with a challenging and rewarding job.  It’s sometimes stressful, but staying at home would be more stressful for me. Deal with it one day at a time, and you’ll learn to cope with lifes "ups and downs".  Good luck.  :-) Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess what I’m trying to say is that I feel a bit bummed in my situation because a roommate that I talked to, who told me that her pdoc recommended that she work (her BP is on the milder end), said that she didn’t agree with him. While I respect her choice it seemed that she was trying to get me to doubt my ability to be able to carry on my current choice (that is working at my current job). While I know that stress is something that causes problems with us, I also know that there’s a reason why we take meds. I know I am taking meds to overcome problems and hurdles to live a regular life. I don’t want to  be on disability because 1)it pays too little 2)want to give my daughters a good role model 3) I’m up for a challenge. Now that I’m at a store that the manager doesn’t make me stress out, I can handle the job I’m in. Even when stressed before, I wasn’t near a nervous breakdown in any way. I just made more mistakes that I haven’t made recently. I think what I’m trying to say is that I want validation that "I can do it", instead of being told how limited I am. I know that there may be times that I won’t be able to handle circumstances, but, by golly I want to put that off for as long as possible. Besides, in about a month or so, I can start getting medical insurance to get properly medicated. My BP is medicated, but not my ADHD. Since BP is taken care of, my ADHD seems to be mild, and even though I struggle a little bit, it’s not enough to be disabling (like before when I thought I just had ADHD – the extra problems attributed to ADHD wound up being due to BP). I think learning coping skills have helped in this area. So for as long as those meds help me, I will do whatever I can to overcome those day to day mood problems. MorphGrrl

Response:

I’d get bummed, too, if someone told me I couldn’t do what I felt I should do because of their interpretation of my condition.  Stick to your guns. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s okay  to post about individual experiences, but I get a little bummed when someone advises that I shouldn’t be doing what I’m doing because I’m "disabled". MorphGrrl

Response:

I’m a working BPer, diagnosed 1984 and have carried on working full-time for most of the time since. Cool! What do you do for a living?

In 1984 I was an analyst/programmer.  I went on to be a systems analyst, and now I’m a business analyst, working as a contractor. I had my first two manic episodes (May 84, May 85) working for one company; they kept me on through month-long hospitalisation and 3-month post-bin depression.  I remember a senior guy saying he understood, he’d had a ‘mental breakdown’ himself.  Next two manic episodes (May 89, Jan 90) working for another company – they kept me on thru same drama.  I’m very impressed with their decency, looking back on it.  (I kept having episodes because I kept going off lithium – it took me a while to accept that I have to take it). Since then I’ve been stable on lithium.  I don’t tell many people about my Dx, certainly don’t mention it to prospective clients / employers.  I still have to take care of my mental health.  Too much playing on the computer late at night means I don’t sleep.  Too much physical exercise makes me high.  My husband tells me when I’m getting a bit manic. You’re the one who knows what you can do in your situation, with your brain, meds etc.  From your other posts I’ve seen, it sounds like you’re aware & sensible – go for it.  As we say in NZ, good on you!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are not your roommate.  Some bipolar people work, some don’t. "Disabled", imo, is a legal term used to describe people who are unable to do a certain task or tasks.  It isn’t an all-purpose label.  Bipolarity is a "disability" to varying degrees, for different people. You can work if you believe you can and if you’re willing to try.  If you couldn’t work, you wouldn’t need to ask about working.  You’d know it. I’ve been diagnosed for 4 years, and was bipolar since I was a teenager. During that time I’ve earned a college degree, worked for the same company for 10 years, and gotten married.  It hasn’t always been easy, but I know myself.  I don’t think I’d do very well on disability – even during summer breaks when I was in college, I would "sink into my own bellybutton", sleeping odd hours, watching tv, reading, and getting more and more unfocused on life until I had the structure of classes to go back to.  I need outside structure.  I need the rewards associated with a challenging and rewarding job.  It’s sometimes stressful, but staying at home would be more stressful for me.

It was for me as well. I need to feel "useful". I am currently working. I’ve thought about taking on another job. However I don’t know if I should. Let’s see if I can support myself just fine with this one. Deal with it one day at a time, and you’ll learn to cope with lifes "ups and downs".  Good luck.  :-) Diane

Thanks, Diane. MorphGrrl

Response:

You are more together than many "normal" people I know!  I like the way you think and it is sad that one person is undoing what you have accomplished. Ignore the neighbor–keep on working as long as you can.  I applaud your efforts and I think you will probably be able to work for a long time to come! Hugs, Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics…

Thanks, Nancy and hugs back at ya MorphGrrl

Response:

I’d get bummed, too, if someone told me I couldn’t do what I felt I should do because of their interpretation of my condition.  Stick to your guns. Diane

Thanks Diane. I just replied to your other posts. It inspires me to see other people doing what I’m choosing to do. (and also doing). MorphGrrl

Response:

permanently into the ether: I don’t want to  be on disability because 1)it pays too little 2)want to give my daughters a good role model 3) I’m up for a challenge. You GO girlfriend! Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics…

Thanks MorphGrrl

Response:

There are people on this ng who are working. I was working as a computer systems administrator until last October. I had really serious hopes and so did my pdoc of getting back to that this year some time. It’s still likely I’ll try to work at the same company, but after a big reorg yesterday, I’m not sure what I’ll wind up doing, or whether it will suite me as well. But that’s close to working!

I’d like to work in the computing field as well. MorphGrrl

Response:

I think you’re smart to hold off on the 2nd job.  I get the impression that you are in a new job ( you mentioned that you will get medical insurance in a month).  The first few months of a new job can be very stressful.  You don’t need to make your life more stressful than it is.  One step at a time. Good luck. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was for me as well. I need to feel "useful". I am currently working. I’ve thought about taking on another job. However I don’t know if I should. Let’s see if I can support myself just fine with this one.

Response:

ether: I think you’re smart to hold off on the 2nd job.  I get the impression that you are in a new job ( you mentioned that you will get medical insurance in a month).  The first few months of a new job can be very stressful.  You don’t need to make your life more stressful than it is.  One step at a time. Good luck. Diane

You are so right Diane!  You reminded me that when I took and Organizational Development class, they taught us that it takes a minimum of six months to "belong" and fit in to a new job.  The more complex the job, the longer it takes to adjust. HTH, Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics…

Response:

I think what I’m trying to say is that I want validation that "I can do it",

instead of being told how limited I am. I know that there may be times that I won’t be able to handle circumstances, but, by golly I want to put that off for as long as possible.

~~~~Here here! I too am Bipolar and I work.  I had, for quite a few years, worked out of my home but I was not making enough money to support my family.  So, we moved to a new city and I now have a very good job with great benefits and it is easy enough for me to deal with – plus my meds have ben working so that makes everything better.  I do get scared and wonder if I will ever have a mental meltdown at work.. I haven’t worked around people like this since the late 80’s (been at this recent job since Jan. 5th – but working since Nov. of 03) — and it is a challenge!  When i first moved to this new city I made an appt. with a councilor so I could get my case set up here (case manager and all) and she told me I would never make over 5 or 6 bucks an hour.  I quickly changed councilors and complained about her to the head honcho.  I am now making over 9 an hour – which is very good for my community.  I would like to march into her office and wave one of my paycheck stubs in her face!  I wonder how many people she says things like this too and they believe her and just give up hope? Grrrrrr! Anyway, stay strong.  There are others in your position, but as nancy said we just don’t have time to post.  I haven’t even read this NG for months due to the fact that I have been doing so well and I am so incredibly busy!  I am supporting my family and it feels good!  being out and around people feels good to! Take care! Aims If it weren’t for the coffee, I’d have no identifiable personality whatsoever. – David Letterman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~~~~Here here! I too am Bipolar and I work.  I had, for quite a few years, worked out of my home but I was not making enough money to support my family.  So, we moved to a new city and I now have a very good job with great benefits and it is easy enough for me to deal with – plus my meds have ben working so that makes everything better.  I do get scared and wonder if I will ever have a mental meltdown at work.. I haven’t worked around people like this since the late 80’s (been at this recent job since Jan. 5th – but working since Nov. of 03) — and it is a challenge!  When i first moved to this new city I made an appt. with a councilor so I could get my case set up here (case manager and all) and she told me I would never make over 5 or 6 bucks an hour.  I quickly changed councilors and complained about her to the head honcho.  I am now making over 9 an hour – which is very good for my community.  I would like to march into her office and wave one of my paycheck stubs in her face!  I wonder how many people she says things like this too and they believe her and just give up hope? Grrrrrr!

That’s sad when people who are supposed to "help" others do that. Congrats on your decision. I’m a person who is "in your face" to prove someone wrong. Anyway, stay strong.  There are others in your position, but as nancy said we just don’t have time to post.  I haven’t even read this NG for months due to the fact that I have been doing so well and I am so incredibly busy!  I am supporting my family and it feels good!  being out and around people feels good to! Take care! Aims

Cool and thanks for the post. Sorry I just replied, been a bit busy lately. Also since I have ADHD as well so many things compete for my attention… Grr it’s hard to know what I need to prioritize to unless it’s a matter of life and death. I don’t have enough hours in the day, that’s for sure! Thanks for the support and you take care as well. MorphGrrl

Response:

I don’t work anymore.  I was an accountant with a decent working knowledge of all the popular accounting software and tax software.  I had 25+ yrs experience.  I was fired because I couldn’t balance a damned computerized check book.  I went to the emergency room 3x that year.  I had to go through 2 pdocs, 1 accused me of faking it, the second said I wasn’t bp, I borderline personality disorder.  My neighbor was a bper and I got started with her pdoc and medical things have improved considerably. I’m afraid to even consider going back to work.  We went to the movies, the movie required ticket stubs to get in.  I always save mine because I go to the bathroom during a movie.  I couldn’t find it and broke out into tears. I did finally find it. KG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – etched permanently into the ether: Just wondering if there’s something out there for those Bpers that are working. Currently I feel a little bummed because I can’t find anybody I can relate to in the home I’m in. I guess I want to be able to talk to people who can support me in this area. MorphGrrl There are people on this ng who are working.  Those of us who aren’t working may have a bit more time to post-but there are many people here who do work. And some have their own "business" that they can do when things are going well. Tell us what concerns you.  We all have opinions, even if we don’t work now–most of us used to work. Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor)

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics… Taylor/5A8E5342BB5E178A48256915000BD5D3

Response:

Just wondering if there’s something out there for those Bpers that are working. Currently I feel a little bummed because I can’t find anybody I can relate to in the home I’m in. I guess I want to be able to talk to people who can support me in this area. Hi Morph Grrl, whereabouts do you live?  Are you looking for a RL support group, or an online one?

Either one. I know where there is one locally. The only problem is that they have night meetings and I work nights. The day that they have a day meeting, I have to work days (Sat). I’m a working BPer, diagnosed 1984 and have carried on working full-time for most of the time since.

Cool! What do you do for a living? MorphGrrl

Response:

I work full time.  I am BPsomething.  If you have any questions, I’m here. Of course, I may not have answers, but I’m willing to give it a shot if you’re willing to ignore me if I’m wrong. Diane

Ah, I can tolerate when someone else is wrong as long as I’m not disrespected as far as the person acts like they are never wrong. It’s no problem. My friend and I have argued but we apologize (we can both be so stubborn and even though she has told me I’m wrong – the fact that she cools off and either later apologizes for how she acted, or we agree to disagree (she will say the content of what I said I believe is right, but the way I said it was wrong, so let’s agree to disagree), or she will say, "okay you are right and I was wrong". I can handle that, even if there was a little fighting involved. Knowing that there’s respect underneath and we both validate each other by saying "despite our fighting we admire what each of us is doing and who we are, etc". Man how I wish that it would have happened in my now dissolved marriage (can’t remember the verb of dissolution). That divorce would have never happened. But it took a divorce for me to get to the point where I could start maturing as a person, so it couldn’t be as bad as I thought. Back to what I was saying before (hehehehhehehe, got off track), I guess I want validation and encouragement for my choice. It’s okay  to post about individual experiences, but I get a little bummed when someone advises that I shouldn’t be doing what I’m doing because I’m "disabled". MorphGrrl

Response:

permanently into the ether: Ah, I can tolerate when someone else is wrong as long as I’m not disrespected as far as the person acts like they are never wrong. It’s no problem. My friend and I have argued but we apologize (we can both be so stubborn and even though she has told me I’m wrong – the fact that she cools off and either later apologizes for how she acted, or we agree to disagree (she will say the content of what I said I believe is right, but the way I said it was wrong, so let’s agree to disagree), or she will say, "okay you are right and I was wrong". I can handle that, even if there was a little fighting involved. Knowing that there’s respect underneath and we both validate each other by saying "despite our fighting we admire what each of us is doing and who we are, etc".

You are more together than many "normal" people I know!  I like the way you think and it is sad that one person is undoing what you have accomplished. Ignore the neighbor–keep on working as long as you can.  I applaud your efforts and I think you will probably be able to work for a long time to come! Hugs, Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics…

Response:

permanently into the ether: I don’t want to  be on disability because 1)it pays too little 2)want to give my daughters a good role model 3) I’m up for a challenge.

You GO girlfriend! Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics…

Response:

I work full time.  I am BPsomething.  If you have any questions, I’m here. Of course, I may not have answers, but I’m willing to give it a shot if you’re willing to ignore me if I’m wrong. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering if there’s something out there for those Bpers that are working. Currently I feel a little bummed because I can’t find anybody I can relate to in the home I’m in. I guess I want to be able to talk to people who can support me in this area. MorphGrrl

Response:

There are people on this ng who are working.  Those of us who aren’t working may have a bit more time to post-but there are many people here who do work.  And some have their own "business" that they can do when things are going well. Tell us what concerns you.  We all have opinions, even if we don’t work now–most of us used to work. Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics…

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I feel a bit bummed in my situation because a roommate that I talked to, who told me that her pdoc recommended that she work (her BP is on the milder end), said that she didn’t agree with him. While I respect her choice it seemed that she was trying to get me to doubt my ability to be able to carry on my current choice (that is working at my current job). While I know that stress is something that causes problems with us, I also know that there’s a reason why we take meds. I know I am taking meds to overcome problems and hurdles to live a regular life. I don’t want to  be on disability because 1)it pays too little 2)want to give my daughters a good role model 3) I’m up for a challenge. Now that I’m at a store that the manager doesn’t make me stress out, I can handle the job I’m in. Even when stressed before, I wasn’t near a nervous breakdown in any way. I just made more mistakes that I haven’t made recently. I think what I’m trying to say is that I want validation that "I can do it", instead of being told how limited I am. I know that there may be times that I won’t be able to handle circumstances, but, by golly I want to put that off for as long as possible. Besides, in about a month or so, I can start getting medical insurance to get properly medicated. My BP is medicated, but not my ADHD. Since BP is taken care of, my ADHD seems to be mild, and even though I struggle a little bit, it’s not enough to be disabling (like before when I thought I just had ADHD – the extra problems attributed to ADHD wound up being due to BP). I think learning coping skills have helped in this area. So for as long as those meds help me, I will do whatever I can to overcome those day to day mood problems. MorphGrrl

Response:

Just wondering if there’s something out there for those Bpers that are working. Currently I feel a little bummed because I can’t find anybody I can relate to in the home I’m in. I guess I want to be able to talk to people who can support me in this area. MorphGrrl

Response:

permanently into the ether: Just wondering if there’s something out there for those Bpers that are working. Currently I feel a little bummed because I can’t find anybody I can relate to in the home I’m in. I guess I want to be able to talk to people who can support me in this area. MorphGrrl

There are people on this ng who are working.  Those of us who aren’t working may have a bit more time to post-but there are many people here who do work.  And some have their own "business" that they can do when things are going well. Tell us what concerns you.  We all have opinions, even if we don’t work now–most of us used to work. Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Knocking-’Round-the-Zoo-lyrics…

Response:

Just wondering if there’s something out there for those Bpers that are working. Currently I feel a little bummed because I can’t find anybody I can relate to in the home I’m in. I guess I want to be able to talk to people who can support me in this area.

Hi Morph Grrl, whereabouts do you live?  Are you looking for a RL support group, or an online one? I’m a working BPer, diagnosed 1984 and have carried on working full-time for most of the time since.

Response:

Question:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

For tax filing only, I recommend Taxbrain.com. It’s lesser known, but in my opinion treats its customers with a higher degree of respect than most software companies. SF

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? For tax filing only, I recommend Taxbrain.com. It’s lesser known, but in my opinion treats its customers with a higher degree of respect than most software companies.

TAXBRAIN the kinder, gentler, sweeter tax software, for that warm and fuzzy feeling come next April 15th. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SF

Response:

http://www.simplyaccounting.com/simplyonline/ Angela – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t see that, unless this is the SimplyCare link that links to ACCPAC? Wish there was a way to keep track of hours/miles on a Palm or Pocket PC and sync with some sort of accounting software. What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

No, fully online accounting system. Also, something that would sync with a Palm or Pocket PC would be nice. Some way to be able to keep track of hours and miles while in the field, then sync when back home. May not work with fully online accounting system. i don’t think there is even any accounting software that does this period? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups

Response:

I don’t see that, unless this is the SimplyCare link that links to ACCPAC? Wish there was a way to keep track of hours/miles on a Palm or Pocket PC and sync with some sort of accounting software. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

I don’t see that, unless this is the SimplyCare link that links to ACCPAC? Wish there was a way to keep track of hours/miles on a Palm or Pocket PC and sync with some sort of accounting software.

Palms come with a built in application called Expense that exports directly to Excel.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? Simply Accounting also has an On-Line accounting system.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups I’d caution to be thorough in investigating the charge structure of each product you evaluate as well as its functionality.  Intuit for one has gone to a fee-based approach that makes the initial purchase attractive but the continuing costs for features such as payroll and tax tables can be onerous, espcially for "mom ‘n pop" home/small businesses… In order to keep the payroll functions working a user can opt to upgrade each year. This can cost for the basic program around 100 dollars. The term onerous may be an overstatement.

That will/may depend on the size of the business, granted….reading the QB ng’s one quickly finds many sorely displeased w/Intuit’s pricing structure, however. But, as I say, they are almost all one-person <very small businesses in my readings…of course, it’s the forced nature of the upgrade that is the sticky wicket for many.  I simply wanted to make OP aware that there is a continuing cost that may be more than anticipated from the box cover and ad copy.

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products?

online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups

Response:

What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups

I’d caution to be thorough in investigating the charge structure of each product you evaluate as well as its functionality.  Intuit for one has gone to a fee-based approach that makes the initial purchase attractive but the continuing costs for features such as payroll and tax tables can be onerous, espcially for "mom ‘n pop" home/small businesses…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other options are out there as far as online accounting software? As far as Intuit vs. Peachtree which would be preferred? Do I still get bombarded with snail mail and email when I use Intuit products? online accounting software –  do you mean buying it online?   try downloading the free trial offer from peachtree and quickbooks and decide what is best for you and your business.  Some say peachtree has better inventory options, others say quickbooks is easier to learn.   You should check out the peachtree and quickbooks newsgroups I’d caution to be thorough in investigating the charge structure of each product you evaluate as well as its functionality.  Intuit for one has gone to a fee-based approach that makes the initial purchase attractive but the continuing costs for features such as payroll and tax tables can be onerous, espcially for "mom ‘n pop" home/small businesses…

In order to keep the payroll functions working a user can opt to upgrade each year. This can cost for the basic program around 100 dollars. The term onerous may be an overstatement.

Response:

Question:

We know that a successful person need to have both public and comerical experiences. But let’s say if one wants to choose their career path for their retirements. Which is better? 1, Big 4 Partner   2, Small and Private Firm Partner   3, CFO of a small public company   4, CFO of a medium – large public company please answer with real life experiences from people that you know of.

Response:

It all depends on your personality.  Not everyone is able to be a manager (or a leader).  Working as a CFO has that requirement.  Working in a small firm I noticed that the partners are usually more stressed than those of the final four, but those are personal observations.  If you just want a job and not much more work for a big company as an accountant or analyst.

Response:

Being a partner of a private firm USUALLY earns more than a analyst or ann accountant in a private company. CFO would probably earns about the same with the allowances. But being a boss means you have alot of free time of your own. I think all that should take into account.

Response:

Define "successful person". Are you after money?  Satisfaction?  Status? Hopefullly. all of above. Then you’ll never get what you want.

Which is the motivation toward success. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * * Unemployed for seven years, mistake of being an accountant. * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

Define "successful person". Are you after money?  Satisfaction?  Status?

Hopefullly. all of above.

Response:

We know that a successful person need to have both public and comerical experiences. But let’s say if one wants to choose their career path for their retirements. Which is better? 1, Big 4 Partner 2, Small and Private Firm Partner 3, CFO of a small public company 4, CFO of a medium – large public company please answer with real life experiences from people that you know of.

I believe that this depends on the person involved. There is not, in my opinion, a right answer to this situation that will be appropriate for all people. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

Define "successful person". Are you after money?  Satisfaction?  Status? Hopefullly. all of above.

Then you’ll never get what you want. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

We know that a successful person need to have…..

Define "successful person". Are you after money?  Satisfaction?  Status? This little question reminds me of the story of the Mexican fisherman that did a little fishing in the morning, took a long siesta in the afternoon, and he did the exact same thing day after day. A big city executive on vacation was walking down the beach one day and asked the fisherman why he didn’t fish more during the day.  The fisherman asked why he should spend more time fishing.  The big city executive told him he could catch more fish, and sell them and become successful. When the fisherman asked what he’d do with that extra money the executive told him he could buy more boats, hire fishermen as employees, and take his fishing company global making millions. When the fisherman asked what he’d do with millions of dollars, the executive said he could retire to the beach, buy a small boat, fish in his spare time, and take long afternoon siestas. It’s beyond me why we define successful as being able to wear shorts all day on one hand, while wondering when the people that already wear shorts all day will get a real job. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the ideas.  I don’t have experience in the three areas you mention, but I did spend 4 1/2 years in the Army National Guard from 1987-1991, and graduated from my state’s OCS program.  I have some experience in forensic accounting, also.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a quick question to any of you in this NG.  Do you think that because of all the reorganization talks going on about the FBI (and CIA, for that matter), and the possibility of jobs being created, it will be easier to get a job as an accountant with either of these organizations.  I tried back in 1992 when I graduated USC, but was not hired.  I now have about four solid years of accounting experience, one in public and three in industry.  I have passed the CPA exam, also.  Any ideas? Are you talking about going in the FBI as a Special Agent or as an accountant in a support/administrative role?  For the CIA, all support positions require a move to the DC area, and I believe the same holds true for the FBI. You can go to either of their websites and obtain this type of information. According to the FBI’s website, they are still hiring CPAs and attorneys for agent positions, but this has taken a back seat role to the hiring of those with linguistic, military intelligence, and counter terrorism experience. Since I fit two of those categories, I am currently trying to go in myself. — Todd Stephens

Response:

I have a quick question to any of you in this NG.  Do you think that because of all the reorganization talks going on about the FBI (and CIA, for that matter), and the possibility of jobs being created, it will be easier to get a job as an accountant with either of these organizations.  I tried back in 1992 when I graduated USC, but was not hired.  I now have about four solid years of accounting experience, one in public and three in industry.  I have passed the CPA exam, also.  Any ideas?

Are you talking about going in the FBI as a Special Agent or as an accountant in a support/administrative role?  For the CIA, all support positions require a move to the DC area, and I believe the same holds true for the FBI. You can go to either of their websites and obtain this type of information. According to the FBI’s website, they are still hiring CPAs and attorneys for agent positions, but this has taken a back seat role to the hiring of those with linguistic, military intelligence, and counter terrorism experience. Since I fit two of those categories, I am currently trying to go in myself. — Todd Stephens

Response:

I have a quick question to any of you in this NG.  Do you think that because of all the reorganization talks going on about the FBI (and CIA, for that matter), and the possibility of jobs being created, it will be easier to get a job as an accountant with either of these organizations.  I tried back in 1992 when I graduated USC, but was not hired.  I now have about four solid years of accounting experience, one in public and three in industry.  I have passed the CPA exam, also.  Any ideas?

Response:

I had a nephew who wanted to enter the FBI, at that time they wanted agents who were majoring in fields like Accounting, A long time ago in a galaxy far far way  "Katy and Tracy I have a quick question to any of you in this NG.  Do you think that because of all the reorganization talks going on about the FBI (and CIA, for that matter), and the possibility of jobs being created, it will be easier to get a job as an accountant with either of these organizations.  I tried back in 1992 when I graduated USC, but was not hired.  I now have about four solid years of accounting experience, one in public and three in industry.  I have passed the CPA exam, also.  Any ideas?

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Response:

Question:

Coming late to this party, I respond in part to several other posters, too. I’m active in real estate rentals, have a house I live in which has greatly appreciated, and consider other investments in the course of considering sales of same, and have made a career of avoiding (which is entirely legal, vs evading, which is not!) taxes, so, with *only* that behind me: Starkers are ok if you put all the boot (money received in excess of the depreciated value) in an account reserved specifically – you can’t touch it – for the purpose of buying another investment, and then identify in the qualifying time the intended investment and actually buy it with that boot. The depreciated value (basis) moves over in the ‘exchange’ at the time, and if there’s money left over, that’s the taxable boot.  All the usual rules about businesses having to make a profit in some time frame apply to future business activity vs hobby activity, but the nature of the investment vehicle doesn’t have to be identical… The capital gains exclusion mentioned is for houses one *lives* in for two of the last five years, not rentals.  However, you could convert it to your personal residence, live there for two years and get the same benefit, doing it as many times as you wanted to (a good way to take fixer-uppers and get non-taxable income on turnover following improvements).  It’s double for couples. (up to 250k and 500k (single and couple respectively) gain sheltered from taxes against the purchase price – which, if it’s fully depreciated, which is likely, being a 15 year property if you used ACRS (accelerated cost recovery system) as most did at that time, means its purchase price would want to be ‘free’ in order to avoid the cap gain on that purchase (the one which converted it into a personal residence).  It might have to go through some other hands in order to pass the smell test about arms-length, but it could probably be done.)  The depreciation stinker is that they recapture the depreciation on resale (that is, if you have a depreciated value, that’s the ‘basis’ for the sale, and the sales price less the basis is the gain) which is why, if you converted it into a personal property, you’d want to sell it for free, or whatever the depreciated price/value was at the time of the conversion. And, the IRS has repeatedly held that a boat can be a residence, so you could use that as your home for whatever purpose you wanted, or do the same to it as you did with the rental. Were it me, I’d prefer the conversion to personal property route if you had the time and ability to do it, but otherwise it might still be able to be worked if you want to spend the money to set it up right under a Starker. YMMV :{)) L8R Skip — The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage. Stamp out Sesquipedalianism<<

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We own a house that we have rented out for about 15 years, and now I’m contemplating selling it to buy a (small) yacht.  We  have a significant capital gain on the house, thanks to California’s housing market in that time. Tax avoiding soul that I am, I’m trying to figure out how to avoid/defer paying the capital gain tax on the house.  Anyone on this newgroup know if a rental house qualifies for a tax deferred exchange (I think that is/was called a Starker exchange) if the proceeds are used to buy a yacht for charter? (like the Moorings buy-a-charter-yacht program I see them advertise in the glossy boating magazines.) My daydreams involve a large sailing catamaran in the Med or Caribbean, which we could use for a couple of weeks per year. I would not be looking to do this expecting to make any real money on chartering, I just want a boat and avoid those capital gain taxes. Any accountants or tax lawyers here know if this fits the rules for such an exchange? If so, could it later be converted to our permanent residence (live aboard), and could we avoid paying those capital gain taxes altogether? Legally? (I’m assuming that the long arm of the IRS indeed reaches into the Med or Caribbean, and I don’t want to pay penalties or go to "Club Fed".  I’m going to have enough trouble convincing the wife of the benefits of this idea as it is, much less learning how to navigate, anchor, trim sails, avoid hurricanes, etc…) Thanks –Bob

Response:

I think you have hit on the key issue: the "Like Kind" requirement.  Is a rental house a "Like Kind" to a rental (charter) boat?  I vaguely recall hearing that boats are Personal Property, not Real Property, such as the house.  So it does not look too promising.  But I will check with my CPA relative (the "aggressive" one, not the other CPA relative…:-) soon. Thanks –Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not a tax accountant or attorney, nor do play one on TV, but I believe you might fail the "Like Kind" requirement of a 1031 exchange: painting for painting, residential property for commercial property, and so forth.  Also has to be located within the US. A quick search brought up this (sadly) commercial site that seems to explain the basics well: http://www.starkerexchanges.com/ Still, boats can qualify as second homes and if the boat’s chartered out of FL or Puerto Rico….. As opined by others: Get the advice of someone that really knows these things. — Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux — ‘73 Tanzer 28 #4 — out of Tolchester, MD Xan’s Pics & Specs: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI Vacation trip FAQ (250+ Annotated pics): http://members.dca.net/jerelull/BVI.html

Response:

We own a house that we have rented out for about 15 years, and now I’m contemplating selling it to buy a (small) yacht.  We  have a significant capital gain on the house, thanks to California’s housing market in that time. Tax avoiding soul that I am, I’m trying to figure out how to avoid/defer paying the capital gain tax on the house.

If I were in your shoes I would be chatting with my CPA. — DAVe http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

Response:

If I were in your shoes I would be chatting with my CPA.

Well, if I had one, I would, but I don’t.  I do plan on engaging a CPA when/if I actually get closer to selling the house for a boat, but for now, I’m just trying to understand my options. Thanks –Bob

Response:

If I were in your shoes I would be chatting with my CPA. Well, if I had one, I would, but I don’t.  I do plan on engaging a CPA when/if I actually get closer to selling the house for a boat, but for now, I’m just trying to understand my options. Thanks –Bob

A few years back my CPA indicated that the laws were recently changed because of the california market and you now can get some 250,000 increase before having to pay any taxes. As I remember the conversation. — DAVe http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

Response:

We own a house that we have rented out for about 15 years, and now I’m contemplating selling it to buy a (small) yacht.  We  have a significant capital gain on the house, thanks to California’s housing market in that time. Tax avoiding soul that I am, I’m trying to figure out how to avoid/defer paying the capital gain tax on the house.  Anyone on this newgroup know if a rental house qualifies for a tax deferred exchange (I think that is/was called a Starker exchange) if the proceeds are used to buy a yacht for charter? (like the Moorings buy-a-charter-yacht program I see them advertise in the glossy boating magazines.)

I’m not a tax accountant or attorney, nor do play one on TV, but I believe you might fail the "Like Kind" requirement of a 1031 exchange: painting for painting, residential property for commercial property, and so forth.  Also has to be located within the US. A quick search brought up this (sadly) commercial site that seems to explain the basics well: http://www.starkerexchanges.com/ Still, boats can qualify as second homes and if the boat’s chartered out of FL or Puerto Rico….. As opined by others: Get the advice of someone that really knows these things. — Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux — ‘73 Tanzer 28 #4 — out of Tolchester, MD Xan’s Pics & Specs: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI Vacation trip FAQ (250+ Annotated pics): http://members.dca.net/jerelull/BVI.html

Response:

We own a house that we have rented out for about 15 years, and now I’m contemplating selling it to buy a (small) yacht.  We  have a significant capital gain on the house, thanks to California’s housing market in that time. Tax avoiding soul that I am, I’m trying to figure out how to avoid/defer paying the capital gain tax on the house.  Anyone on this newgroup know if a rental house qualifies for a tax deferred exchange (I think that is/was called a Starker exchange) if the proceeds are used to buy a yacht for charter? (like the Moorings buy-a-charter-yacht program I see them advertise in the glossy boating magazines.)   My daydreams involve a large sailing catamaran in the Med or Caribbean, which we could use for a couple of weeks per year. I would not be looking to do this expecting to make any real money on chartering, I just want a boat and avoid those capital gain taxes. Any accountants or tax lawyers here know if this fits the rules for such an exchange? If so, could it later be converted to our permanent residence (live aboard), and could we avoid paying those capital gain taxes altogether? Legally? (I’m assuming that the long arm of the IRS indeed reaches into the Med or Caribbean, and I don’t want to pay penalties or go to "Club Fed".  I’m going to have enough trouble convincing the wife of the benefits of this idea as it is, much less learning how to navigate, anchor, trim sails, avoid hurricanes, etc…) Thanks –Bob

Response:

Question:

A better suggestion would be to check with simular not for profits and see what they are using. There are several good software packages that are specific for not for profits. Good idea. And unless you have very simple needs in an accounting software programs I would seriously stay away from Access based programs. Eh?  Simple?  Most of these systems are not simple.  One or two certainly are simple.

While alot of things can be done in Access I would strongly suggest that the more complicated the system the less you should be looking at Access to do the job. I would hate to do my job on a system created on Access, it just wouldn’t work near as well. Tony

Andy

Response:

A better suggestion would be to check with simular not for profits and see what they are using. There are several good software packages that are specific for not for profits.

Good idea. And unless you have very simple needs in an accounting software programs I would seriously stay away from Access based programs.

Eh?  Simple?  Most of these systems are not simple.  One or two certainly are simple. Tony —- Message posted to newsgroup and, if appropriate, emailed. Tony Toews, Independent Computer Consultant Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm VolStar http://www.volstar.com Manage hundreds or    thousands of volunteers for special events.

Response:

Much of the concern about Access began when it was a Win 3.1 16-bit product.  One issue was that thousands of non-programmers fancies themselves to be programmers.  The tables were too large, which made them slow and unreliable.

Agreed.  Some of the system I see are pathetic.   Macro’s.  Simple designs.  What if they have more than two phone numbers?  Yech. That ad of Microsofts a few years back showing a beach with a toddler and plastic pail and shovel next to the hard hat equiped operator and a track hoe went way overboard. Tony —- Message posted to newsgroup and, if appropriate, emailed. Tony Toews, Independent Computer Consultant Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at    http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm VolStar http://www.volstar.com Manage hundreds or    thousands of volunteers for special events.

Response:

There are several good software packages that are specific for not for profits. And unless you have very simple needs in an accounting software programs I would seriously stay away from Access based programs. Andy

Much of the concern about Access began when it was a Win 3.1 16-bit product.  One issue was that thousands of non-programmers fancies themselves to be programmers.  The tables were too large, which made them slow and unreliable. Sometimes I would hear a comment like, "Delphi is a more complete programming environment."  The problem is, Access does not have to have every conceivable feature because the code is instantly available in Visual Basic, which can do as much or more than any Windows based development platform, including Delphi. In any case, these problems will soon evaporate.  Please refer to the Access 2000 press release; http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1998/Oct98/MSDEpr.htm – - – - – Here are the first few paragraphs:   – - – - – Microsoft Access 2000 Gains New Scalable Storage Engine Options New Microsoft Data Engine Combines Familiarity of Access With Scalability and Reliability of SQL Server 7.0 DENVER – Oct. 12, 1998 – - Microsoft Corp. today announced the Microsoft

Question:

Thanks much for the tips.  I’ll be giving them a shot tomorrow….

Response:

Well, there is one thing you can do now to quickly balance your system at least on paper. Then, you should probably keep control totals manually as a monthly and on-going check for all of your sub-ledgers. If the AR is out of balance, do the following; Start at the last point the AR aging agreed with the GL control account. Add all AR sales and subtract all AR cash received on a month by month basis, attempting to balance with any AR aging reports on the way (its a good idea to keep monthly aging reports). Bear in mind any writeoffs and discounts taken/allowed on the way. You’ll have to ensure all transactions during that time were posted both to the GL and the subledgers. Somewhere along the line, you will find where the imbalance occurred. More than likely in the month that yielded corrupted integrity checks. Maintain this temporary out of balance condition in your manual control totals until such time as the missing transactions can be accounted for. Review all bank reconciliations to ensure all cash was posted to AR and cash receipts journals. Trace all sales (invoices) to sales register to ensure all sales posted. It’s not such a tough job, perhaps just time consuming. Don’t despair, it will work out. There must be some import/export utility within Peachtree to import any missing transactions. There certainly is some way to fix it. Chaloner Hale

Response:

Well, there is one thing you can do now to quickly balance your system at least on paper. Then, you should probably keep control totals manually as a monthly and on-going check for all of your sub-ledgers. If the AR is out of balance, do the following; Start at the last point the AR aging agreed with the GL[..]. Somewhere along the line, you will find where the imbalance occurred.

This reminds me of a fantastically easy way to fix corruption if you are lucky enough to find the problematic transaction. First make a backup.  Then put your cursor on the unbalanced transaction, and hit <DELETE Then run the reindexing, and integrity checks again, this might cure the whole thing. Todd

Response:

But first you have to find the offending transaction, which I believe that we did today.  Thanks for your help !

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all — I’m a computer consultant, not an accountant, so excuse any ignorance as it applies to accounting terms within this post. Here’s our problem, any advice, suggestions, good beers to drink after fixing it, are much appreciated. I’m working with a small steel brokerage that is currently running Peachtree for Windows 5.0.  We have it running on a Compaq workstation (Pentium 166 / 32 mb. / Win 95), and four users are accessing the PEACHW data on this machine from their Win 95 machines.  Your basic peer-to-peer operation.  The problem is the bankers are in their office this week doing audits.  The books don’t balance, and we suspect that the data within Peachtree is corrupted.  We ran "integrity checks" for the month of June ‘98, and found two entry errors which were corrected.  We then ran integrity checks for both May and July (before and after June months) to test to make sure that no errors were showing up before or after the June accounting periods.  No errors were found by the integrity check for May or July.  Yet, when the folks in this office run the Aged Receivables report, apparently they are not getting whatever is supposed to balance, to balance.  The data within the General Ledger seems to be OK.  We called Peachtree support, and they advised running integrity checks & data synchronizations for EVERY accounting period going back to Jan. of ‘97. During one of these checks / synchronizations, the check got up to about 85% complete, then it stops, giving an error msg. which Peachtree tells us means that the file is corrupt.  How can we have corrupt data files if we are able to work within Peachtree at all? A) Can we somehow "uncorrupt", or clean up the Peachtree data files? B) Can we retrieve a Peachtree data backup from, say, September ‘97, determine if it is clean, then use this retored file on our system?  And if so, is there a quick and easy way to enter data from (for example) September ‘97 going forward until October ‘98 without manually entering every entry? C) How can we convince a bank that we are not playing games with our books, but that our data is genuinely corrupt, and yes, by the way, we still need your loan in order to stay in business? This is a grave situation.  Any advice will be MOST appreciated.  Thanks much in advance and I offer apologies for the lengthy post.

you can go back to any period and "export" or extract applications, say payments or receivables to check the numbers. This can then be imported back into the current period but first a professional (CPA) should review ledgers/files to determine where and why the G.L. or "books" don’t balance.

Response:

Hello all — I’m a computer consultant, not an accountant, so excuse any ignorance as it applies to accounting terms within this post. Here’s our problem, any advice, suggestions, good beers to drink after fixing it, are much appreciated. I’m working with a small steel brokerage that is currently running Peachtree for Windows 5.0.  We have it running on a Compaq workstation (Pentium 166 / 32 mb. / Win 95), and four users are accessing the PEACHW data on this machine from their Win 95 machines.  Your basic peer-to-peer operation.  The problem is the bankers are in their office this week doing audits.  The books don’t balance, and we suspect that the data within Peachtree is corrupted.  We ran "integrity checks" for the month of June ‘98, and found two entry errors which were corrected.  We then ran integrity checks for both May and July (before and after June months) to test to make sure that no errors were showing up before or after the June accounting periods.  No errors were found by the integrity check for May or July.  Yet, when the folks in this office run the Aged Receivables report, apparently they are not getting whatever is supposed to balance, to balance.  The data within the General Ledger seems to be OK.  We called Peachtree support, and they advised running integrity checks & data synchronizations for EVERY accounting period going back to Jan. of ‘97. During one of these checks / synchronizations, the check got up to about 85% complete, then it stops, giving an error msg. which Peachtree tells us means that the file is corrupt.  How can we have corrupt data files if we are able to work within Peachtree at all? A) Can we somehow "uncorrupt", or clean up the Peachtree data files? B) Can we retrieve a Peachtree data backup from, say, September ‘97, determine if it is clean, then use this retored file on our system?  And if so, is there a quick and easy way to enter data from (for example) September ‘97 going forward until October ‘98 without manually entering every entry? C) How can we convince a bank that we are not playing games with our books, but that our data is genuinely corrupt, and yes, by the way, we still need your loan in order to stay in business? This is a grave situation.  Any advice will be MOST appreciated.  Thanks much in advance and I offer apologies for the lengthy post. — —

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Question:

<many newsgroups trimmed for this response I can’t really blame people for hating the good ol’ US of A, I mean, we’ve done more damage to this world than the Brits could have ever dreamed of!  But please remember, silly foreigner types, not all of us are malevolant and evil.  Some of us want to change the way this land is run.

Several points: 1. Nobody should ever mistake the policies of a government as being equivalent to that country entirely.  Many Vietnam war protesters made the foolish leap from being against the war to being against the United States.  Jane Fonda is a classic, and extremely rueful example. So when you say you can’t blame people for hating the United States, you are saying you can’t blame them for being stupid jerks.  It’s like people who hated "Russia" in the cold war.  We didn’t hate Russia, we hated the idiots who happened to be in charge of the government at the time. 2. I’d much rather argue the US side than the British side in a debate about who screwed the world less.  I’d also argue that both were on balance forces for good in history. 3. "Not all of us are malevolant (sic) and evil."  Some of us are on the good side.  This is one of the problems with the current debate–each side insists the other is sick and twisted.  Liberals want your kids to learn how to have safe homosexual intercourse in kindergarten, while conservatives don’t want sex education at all because it might reveal that they’ve been raping their kids.  Liberals want the new post-birth abortion bill approved, while conservatives want to make sure the coathanger is manufactured in Mexico.  Liberals want to ban the gun you could save your family with, while conservatives want to make sure that crack dealers have plenty of assault rifles around the house.  I suspect that most of us are nowhere near any of these extremes.  Yes, we Republicans have Pat Buchanan, and you Democrats have Dick Gephardt, but the reality of life is that neither of these guys could get more than about a third of their own party’s votes, and would pick up virtually none from the other side. Pat Curley

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  Newsgroups: alt.activism; alt.fan.jello-biafra; alt.fan.noam-chomsky; alt.fan.rush-limbaugh; alt.illuminati; alt.music.alternative; alt.music.hardcore; alt.music.industrial; alt.politics.british; alt.politics.clinton; alt.politics.greens; alt.politics.libertarian; al

    What an utterly uninformed opinion you have. What should the 20,000   Microsoft employees (most of whom own stock options themselves worth millions) or the hundreds of thousands of people in companies that sprug up to enhance and support Microsoft products do when brain dead socialists

  destroy incentives to create a Microsoft because they are envious of other

  people’s success??? I’ll let you in on a little secret. Information technology will shortly

  enable smart people to work anywhere in the world.    Yers but I’m using a Microsoft system that is a bitch to operate,  and I can’t think of using others cos it was packaged kindly by my ISP   When I have some experience I hope to have the confidence to replace   most of the micrrosoft stuff on this machine.  My reason?  Because although no doubt Bill is an intelligent, benign one,   I want no part in his control of this medium or any control that  requires you to have sourced all your products from him.  I hope in the future we can get to a position where intelligent file   handling allows us to use  practically any software to open a file. One thing is for sure.  The relationship of  Microsoft’s dreams and US Government power is more surely of  concern to me as a computer user than Zaire or Indonesia,  though I have spent many hours watching and feeling for the   people of those country’s recently.  And if that is Socialism, well, tough. I just call it choice. something Microsoft currently give little of, it would seem.   Teal

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And to  suggest as the  above article did that marginal taxation was an  ilness is to deny the most  painful experience of Britain in recent years- THE POLL TAX_ -occurred   an attempt to use a non-marginal tax so why are you? I can only assume you failed to note the previous examples of true non-marginal taxation with care- eg Spain before the Republic. The chaos both of these examples exemplified the situation America should hate: an abandonment of judgement and morality by its government to the trendy politics of the rich.Teal l Teal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What an utterly uninformed opinion you have. What should the 20,000 Microsoft employees (most of whom own stock options themselves worth millions) or the hundreds of thousands of people in companies that sprug up to enhance and support Microsoft products do when brain dead socialists destroy incentives to create a Microsoft because they are envious of other people’s success??? I’ll let you in on a little secret. Information technology will shortly enable smart people to work anywhere in the world. The Clinton Administration is already worried about this and has proposed a 3% exit tax on net worth for people who want to renounce their citizenship and leave the country (sort of a financial Berlin Wall). There are an increasing number of emerging places in the world that welcome smart, wealthy people with open arms, low tax rates, and even private tax treaties for the very wealthy. They know that smart and wealthy people place few demands on government services and can provide great benefit to an area by creating new businesses that employ the local population. Faced with increasing tax burdens and envy in the industrial democracies of Europe and North American, what will smart people do when technologies like Teledesc tie the whole world together in 2002? Leave. Who will be left? The dummies. Think about it. "Maximum wage"??? You are actually suggesting, presumably with a straight face, that the public give you the right to decide if someone is making too much money, and then let you take it away??? Boy, *there’s* a sure way to motivate hard work and achievement… Yeah, If you make over 2,000,000 bucks a year.  The rest goes to society.  Screw Bill Gates and the Multimillionares who make up the top 1% of the wealth.  Thanks to Reagan-Bush right now if they have decent accountants they pay NO taxes.

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I have no Social(ist) (In)Security number and do not pay or owe income taxes.

Yet you still use government services which you admit you do not pay for. I have no Driver’s license – but I do travel upon my public roads without hinderance.

Here is an example of a government service (public roads) which you use yet do not pay for and also an example of contempt for the law – the purpose for driver’s licenses is to ensure those who drive are qualified. You apparently believe anyone, even those with records to drinking and driving, even those without insurance, etc should be allowed to fly down the road in a ton of steel. I have no auto tag – but I travel in my private automobile without hinderance.

Another show of contempt. I am an American, but I’m not a U.S. citizen.

The same could be said of my cat.  If you are anot a citizen then you do not vote.  If you do not vote and you do not pay taxes and you do not follow the laws and you continue to use public services, clearly you are part of the problem, not solution. I am a free inhabitant with all the privileges and immunities of free citizens, pursuant to Article 4 of the Articles of Confederation.

The Articles of Confederation are not law, they are history.  The U.S. Constitution is the Law of the Land now and has been for 200 years.  You are a mooch.  Get a life.      *  *                           **                 http://www.unc.edu/~davwhitt         ***                        **  *  *            People often find it easier to be a result       **    **             of the past than a cause of the future.

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OKAY OKAY OKAY If you don’t know it, Income Taxation in America is 100% voluntary. Even the IRS admits they enforce voluntary compliance. What they don’t tell you is HOW YOU VOLUNTEERED! The SECRET: The Social Security number. If you don’t have the number you have NO TAXABLE INCOME! There is no law requiring the number, nor any law that punishes you for not having the number. If there ever is a law that mandates the number, it will be involuntary servitude and unconstitutional. The Socialist / Communists, who are really pirates in pinstripes, want to confiscate all wealth. But they still need your consent – at least until they confiscate all guns from Americans. So if you want to build real wealth and not leave your beloved homeland, just move from the United States and back into the United States of America. I did. I have no Social(ist) (In)Security number and do not pay or owe income taxes. I have no Driver’s license – but I do travel upon my public roads without hinderance. I have no auto tag – but I travel in my private automobile without hinderance. I am an American, but I’m not a U.S. citizen. I am a free inhabitant with all the privileges and immunities of free citizens, pursuant to Article 4 of the Articles of Confederation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And to  suggest as the  above article did that marginal taxation was an  ilness is to deny the most  painful experience of Britain in recent years- THE POLL TAX_ -occurred   an attempt to use a non-marginal tax so why are you? I can only assume you failed to note the previous examples of true non-marginal taxation with care- eg Spain before the Republic. The chaos both of these examples exemplified the situation America should hate: an abandonment of judgement and morality by its government to the trendy politics of the rich.Teal l Teal What an utterly uninformed opinion you have. What should the 20,000 Microsoft employees (most of whom own stock options themselves worth millions) or the hundreds of thousands of people in companies that sprug up to enhance and support Microsoft products do when brain dead socialists destroy incentives to create a Microsoft because they are envious of other people’s success??? I’ll let you in on a little secret. Information technology will shortly enable smart people to work anywhere in the world. The Clinton Administration is already worried about this and has proposed a 3% exit tax on net worth for people who want to renounce their citizenship and leave the country (sort of a financial Berlin Wall). There are an increasing number of emerging places in the world that welcome smart, wealthy people with open arms, low tax rates, and even private tax treaties for the very wealthy. They know that smart and wealthy people place few demands on government services and can provide great benefit to an area by creating new businesses that employ the local population. Faced with increasing tax burdens and envy in the industrial democracies of Europe and North American, what will smart people do when technologies like Teledesc tie the whole world together in 2002? Leave. Who will be left? The dummies. Think about it. "Maximum wage"??? You are actually suggesting, presumably with a straight face, that the public give you the right to decide if someone is making too much money, and then let you take it away??? Boy, *there’s* a sure way to motivate hard work and achievement… Yeah, If you make over 2,000,000 bucks a year.  The rest goes to society.  Screw Bill Gates and the Multimillionares who make up the top 1% of the wealth.  Thanks to Reagan-Bush right now if they have decent accountants they pay NO taxes.

– DONOTUSETHESPAMBLOCKED<<ADDRESS<TO<REPLY<<<<

Jeff Ganaposki http://www.freeyellow.com/members/living-word – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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( D E L E T E D)

My Dear Uncle Authur Have you actually run out of things to say?  I have just read the third consecutive message from you . . . ALL IDENTICAL in text. What gives?   hgm

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What an utterly uninformed opinion you have. What should the 20,000 Microsoft employees (most of whom own stock options themselves worth millions) or the hundreds of thousands of people in companies that sprug up to enhance and support Microsoft products do when brain dead socialists destroy incentives to create a Microsoft because they are envious of other people’s success??? I’ll let you in on a little secret. Information technology will shortly enable smart people to work anywhere in the world. The Clinton Administration is already worried about this and has proposed a 3% exit tax on net worth for people who want to renounce their citizenship and leave the country (sort of a financial Berlin Wall). There are an increasing number of emerging places in the world that welcome smart, wealthy people with open arms, low tax rates, and even private tax treaties for the very wealthy. They know that smart and wealthy people place few demands on government services and can provide great benefit to an area by creating new businesses that employ the local population. Faced with increasing tax burdens and envy in the industrial democracies of Europe and North American, what will smart people do when technologies like Teledesc tie the whole world together in 2002? Leave. Who will be left? The dummies. Think about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Maximum wage"??? You are actually suggesting, presumably with a straight face, that the public give you the right to decide if someone is making too much money, and then let you take it away??? Boy, *there’s* a sure way to motivate hard work and achievement… Yeah, If you make over 2,000,000 bucks a year.  The rest goes to society.  Screw Bill Gates and the Multimillionares who make up the top 1% of the wealth.  Thanks to Reagan-Bush right now if they have decent accountants they pay NO taxes.

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What an utterly uninformed opinion you have. What should the 20,000 Microsoft employees (most of whom own stock options themselves worth millions) or the hundreds of thousands of people in companies that sprug up to enhance and support Microsoft products do when brain dead socialists destroy incentives to create a Microsoft because they are envious of other people’s success???

The Maximum wage idea while pretty damn desirable (considering that only .1% of the population will EVER make a 1,000,000) is not as neccesarry as a decent tax rate for the SUPER-Rich the top 10% of those afformentioned .1%  Let’s say a top tax rate of 83% like a civilised country (Holland or pre-corporate owned America). Lesse considering that the cost of a college education to get those jobs has risen out of the means of the working class, and not to forget those friendly Reagan-Bush-Clinton cuts to Government grants for the poor, Only the Upper middle-class will have a chance of ever getting those jobs. " Damn those poor people just don’t work hard enough"   and it’s basically BULLSHIT!  I’m amazed at how many college-educated people in this country have no idea how much of an advantage they had from the beginning (economic backround, private schools, not ‘having" to work in their teenage years, and dont get me started on for-pay special SAT classes only rich people can afford). Jesus, and you people wonder why the rich are systematically slaughtered by society every couple a hundred years. I’ll let you in on a little secret. Information technology will shortly enable smart people to work anywhere in the world.

No the priveleged, mostly white, middle class who could afford college.  Not Poor people in the city, who with a gutted public education system and no government loans, CANT AFFORD the technical training you are so enamored of. The Clinton Administration is already worried about this and has proposed a 3% exit tax on net worth for people who want to renounce their citizenship and leave the country (sort of a financial Berlin Wall). There are an increasing number of emerging places in the world that welcome smart, wealthy people with open arms, low tax rates, and even private tax treaties for the very wealthy.

Yes, wonderful, clean, humane places like Singapore and South America. Gee what those countries have in common is an incredible disparity between rich and poor.  Not to mention oppression, totalitarianism, and slavery for the poor and disenfranchised. They know that smart and wealthy people place few demands on government services and can provide great benefit to an area by creating new businesses that employ the local population. Faced with increasing tax burdens and envy in the industrial democracies of Europe and North American, what will smart people do when technologies like Teledesc tie the whole world together in 2002? Leave. Who will be left? The dummies. Think about it.

Nope, Greedy, Unrepentant Feudalistic bastards like you are the dummies.  Because it’s your lack of compassion and understanding, or even awareness of your own advantages, that make you INTOLERABLE to most people in this country.  

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:And for those who will argue that I’m placing my own job at risk, :their assumption would have to be that companies should waste money on :unnecessary and unproductive methods just to keep someone employed. Ok, fair enough, I know companies have to make the busniess more efficient and cut back sometimes. But when a man has worked hard for a company since the 1960’s and then is fired on the spot and then just kicked out the door that is utterly digusting by any social, moral or ethical yardstick. Secondly, even when a company is doing well they fire workers to get more profits and to boost CEO paychecks which are already bizarre figures in the USA. Even if the management is incompetant which was the case of American busniess all through the 1970’s the CEO never lose their jobs only the average workers do. There are lots of examles of this. When they screw up totally they get the US taxpayers to bail them out i.e., Penn Central, Chysler, AMC, Grummond Aerospace, S&L bail out and many other examples of "quick fix socialism" to save the CEO’s. The great Gore Vidal said that "the USA is the only country on earth that has socialism for the elite and free market for the rest". History shows again and agin he is right. Also many American companies wave the flag during commercals to make you feel it is your national duty to buy their products. Yet American companies could not care less if the US vanished tomorrow other than the fact they could not screw American tax payers anymore. Look at how they ship American jobs and technology overseas to further feed the CEO’s own insatiable greed. Look at the number of American busniessmen who renounce (yes officially renounce!), their US citizenship and then pay millions of dollars to countries like Ireland and Switzerland for citizenship in those countries for them, their families and the massive assets. Then they continue to work in the USA but are not subjected to US income tax. Also if the shit hits the fan in the USA someday, the scumbags along with their families and personal capital start life again in nice little country. The GOP congress refused to pass a bill to prevent these scumbags from doing this. Now that was the real purpose of the ‘Contract on America’. They have the average American train like a performing seal and Americans love them for it. Oh, well at least the French people have sense.

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Question:

 In other words, because we’re FREE, our health care costs more.  I say let the socialists who want to control me, and convert me  into a high-yield government resource, go to EUROPE.

        What is this often stated American FREEDOM ?         No no, I’m serious, I’d like to hear what You people         think freedom is, and how come e.g. the Northern         European countries are less free.         Jochen         PS. If I didn’t make it clear, this is not a flame-bait. —

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"Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?" WRONG!!!  Americans regularly attend the Montreal Neurological Institute.  But your papers don’t care to write about it because they feel that their readers don’t care to see that.  Also, last autumn investigations have revealed widespread fraud by Americans embezzling health insurance cards from Canadian provincial plans, either individually or trafficked by fraud rings.  UPI Clarinet covered this, and other Canadian readers can corroborate from reading their local newspapers (it is very, very widespread).

I should add to Gary’s comments (and I should say that I’m glad to see him responding; I had a very nice and fruitful discussion of the positive and negative aspects of Canadian health care with him a few months ago) that people here in Buffalo go to Canada for treatment; specifically Toronto. Hospitals in that city are trying to attract more affluent patients from Buffalo; it’s a win-win situation for both of them because a) Buffalo patients can get treatment for cancer and other such diseases that they would normally have to travel to New York for, and b) the Toronto hospitals get more money because they charge rates that are higher than those charged Canadians yet lower than those in the US. world’s biggest company town.  The health insurance industry and the CMA doctors’ monopoly was in on it, too, ‘cos the former still sells additional private benefits without the risks of basic (now making more money) while the doctors are ALL private and set the insurance rates,

And there we see what I think is the real danger of adapting the Canadian system to the US. Gary is unapologetic about the CMA’s monopoly power that has come about as a result of socialized basic health-insurance (is that a proper term for it, Gary?). It’s an interesting phenomenon. The AMA opposes Canadian-style health care by promoting charges against the Canadian system that turn out to be either a) totally groundless, or b) ridiculously exaggerated through omissions of crucial information. These invariably come to light and are exposed as such. It almost seems as if the AMA were trying to lose on purpose. Why? Well, Conquest’s Law, formulated by the conservative American historian Robert Conquest (and not, as some have thought, his older brother Norman ) and quoted here on Usenet in a few sigs, tells us that the behavior of any large organization can best be predicted by asssuming it to be controlled by a cabal of its enemies. Is that the case with the AMA? Could it be controlled by a cabal of closet "pseudo-socialists"? Maybe, but not the sense we usually think of socialists. The AMA is curiously silent on the vast increase in power over the health care system in Canada that the CMA has been given, in the form of the licensing of practitioners and providers, through Canada’s single-payer system. Gary has recounted here stories of MDs wanting to practice specialties in a particular geographical area of Canada being denied licenses for that purpose because an older doctor in that region in the same specialty has trouble keeping his appointment book full. Of course, that usually has something to do with the sparse population density of many areas of Canada, but keep in mind that that does not in most cases translate to the US. This may be guided by the perfectly laudable principle of ensuring an efficient distribution of health-care resources, but there is no reason to assume that it always has to be so. In fact, it would be in the CMA’s best interest to, if it needed to, protect older and perhaps less competent doctors from competition from younger specialists. And how sure are we that there isn’t something like this going on? Or that they are arbitrarily restricting supply for their members benefit regardless of complaints about competence (and people who say that that would result in the doctor getting chastised have a lot more faith than I do in doctors’ ability and willingness to police themselves, and their responsiveness to complaints from non-medical people), much as certain unions of skilled professionals in the US deliberately keep membership low so as to ensure plenty of work for their members. You can bet, if Dr. X who’s been practicing, say, cardiology, in Moose Jaw without any competition for twenty-five years hears that Dr. Y has just finished a residency in cardiology and is planning to open a practice in that in the area, that if Dr. X, as a dues-paying life member of the CMA, makes a few calls to friends or other people higher-up in the organization with the power to make or influence the making of licensing decisions, Dr. Y will suddenly encounter all kinds of heretofore unseen bureaucratic delays. So it is likely to imagine that the AMA would develop the same sort of power if the US adopted single-payer-only on a much greater scale and with much less benevolence than the CMA has shown. I don’t think the American public would like the idea of a wealthy organization of professionals in a profession most of them have at best mixed feelings about, accountable only to its own members, having the ability to exercise whim and caprice over such a crucial element of the health-care system. And yet the AMA never mentions that when it preaches the evils of Canadian health care, but instead relies on arguments about waiting periods and other alleged atrocities so specious that the CMA (which, coincidentally, has a lot of links with the AMA) writes letters to the New York Times refuting them quite decisively. Hmmm. (Anybody for adding alt.conspiracy to the newsgroups line?) It would indeed be ironic if such proven and devoted defenders of free-market capitalism as the John Birch Society and other conservative individuals and organizations were to turn out to only be serving as useful idiots for the establishment of yet another American monopoly.

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"Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?" WRONG!!!  Americans regularly attend the Montreal Neurological Institute.  But your papers don’t care to write about it because they feel that their readers don’t care to see that. I should add to Gary’s comments

Hi, Dan, good to see you again! (-; that people here in Buffalo go to Canada for treatment; specifically Toronto.

Vermonters go to Quebec all the time; it is actually helping to sustain the English-speaking sector of the medical industry there. the Toronto hospitals get more money because they charge rates that are higher than those charged Canadians yet lower than those in the US.

Actually, that ties in with my remark elsewhere that while claims to the provincial health insurance (OHIP, here) are guaranteed, cash payments and direct claims to American private insurance is not and thus there is the added overhead.  In fact, my buddy’s practice (he’s a junior partner, but on the verge of promotion) declared cash-only for non-insured last year after getting the stiff from a number of claims to American insurance companies.  This time last year, I freighted to them a used credit card machine bought at a defunct video store on 72nd St. at Columbus Avenue in NYC (remember that there is overhead from accepting plastic, too). Since our health care facilities are private, I certainly have no problem with them looking for more customers than they can get locally … in fact, by serving a wider market it can justify the presence of low-demand specialties that we don’t have the domestic population to supply with business … free trade! (-; Interestingly, I have a clearance from my company (self-insures, but they’re huge so no fear of getting stiff on my part) that our 80/20 can apply to cash billings generated in Canada … the cost is cheaper than doing 80/20 here, and less than what HMO’s charge when they are able to take welk-in business (btw, is that common?).  It also gives me a sick day or an extra vacation day here and there to do errands back north of the border. (-; world’s biggest company town.  The health insurance industry and the CMA doctors’ monopoly was in on it, too, ‘cos the former still sells additional private benefits without the risks of basic (now making more money) while the doctors are ALL private and set the insurance rates, And there we see what I think is the real danger of adapting the Canadian system to the US. Gary is unapologetic about the CMA’s monopoly power that has come about as a result of socialized basic health-insurance (is that a proper term for it, Gary?).

Well, if "socialized" national self-insurance in the same manner of "socialized" national self-defence … (culture, eh?) It’s not a matter of being unapologetic as much as cynical realpolitik (e.g., there was no good reason not to arm Saddam when he was beating on the Ayatollah & Co.).  The CMA is bigger than the Law Societies up north (maybe why malpractice has not moved towards the American mode, probably for better in this case).  Also, my ethnic background happens to be Chinese (family name was anglicized coming to Canada in 1900’s, like what happened to a lot of Ukrainians …) and I got to know lots of doctors from my parents’ circle, as well as their children … some are really hardcore CMA types — in once case, the father came from Taiwan and had to restart his medical education from 3rd year through residency despite being a Chief Surgeon in Taipei and for an Aramco hospital in Saudi Arabia; now, he’s retired and one of the Manitoba MA’s most vicious gatekeepers regarding qualifications. It almost seems as if the AMA were trying to lose on purpose. Why? Could it be controlled by a cabal of closet "pseudo-socialists"? Maybe, but not the sense we usually think of socialists.

It could be a matter of defending your best present position …  as an analogy, Intel has written a lot of papers and articles decrying MCM’s (multi-chip modules) in the high tech press, yet they have a number of tightly-secured labs (no big secret here) to catch up on that very sort of technology. The AMA is curiously silent on the vast increase in power over the health care system in Canada that the CMA has been given, in the form of the licensing of practitioners and providers, through Canada’s single-payer system.

More critical is the CMA’s role in setting the insurance rates … why Canadian doctors take home the same net pay as their American cousins once you factor the gross pay differences due to malpractice insurance. And yet the AMA never mentions that when it preaches the evils of Canadian health care, but instead relies on arguments about waiting periods and other alleged atrocities so specious that the CMA (which, coincidentally, has a lot of links with the AMA) writes letters to the New York Times refuting them quite decisively. Hmmm. (Anybody for adding alt.conspiracy to the newsgroups line?)

Oh, thanks for reminding me … in an Alt.conspiracy vein, the AMA may have been silent for more than a year so that people can forget what they’ve been saying (despite its mass propagation, as in the John Birch article) and have a Canadian card to play in the health care poker game … I was shocked to see that letter from the CMA’s president in the Times in March, because it would not be there sans clearance from the AMA (i.e., not their territory).  Most of the recent Canada-bashing seems to be echoes of people repeating old information that has been refuted in newspapers and magazines of record/repute (NYT, Economist, etc.). It would indeed be ironic if such proven and devoted defenders of free-market capitalism as the John Birch Society and other conservative individuals and organizations were to turn out to only be serving as useful idiots for the establishment of yet another American monopoly.

Actually, it would be funny if Rush Limbaugh didn’t know the role of the Canadian Conservatives in our health insurance setup, took shots at it, then gets a phone call from Peter Lougheed or Bill Davis … (-; gld — Gary L. Dare                            Montreal Canadiens, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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             Eight Myths about National Health Insurance   "Health Assurance" — Jan/Feb issue of _In Health_, by Anthony Schmitz   "When pollsters asked U.S. citizens if they’d prefer Canadian health       care over their own, 72 percent said yes. As for the number of             Canadians who’d choose the U.S. system: 3 percent"   "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but it’s   not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance, you don’t       go to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to pay.’"   Would a Canadian umbrella leak in the United States?   "Socialized health and medical services," said the politician, "are   incompatible with the rights and responsibilities inherent in a free   and democratic society." The year was 1959, and the speaker was J.   Donovan Ross, Alberta’s Minister of Health. Remarkably, Canada’s   citizens disagreed. By 1966 the government had declared itself the   nation’s only health insurer, and by 1971 every Canadian had full,   free coverage.   Now Americans are jealous. Anyone bold enough to endorse Canada as a   suitable model, however, can expect an argument. Here are eight   objections and the rejoinders.   WOULDN’T NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE AMOUNT TO "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE,"   FULL OF BUREAUCRATS TELLING OUR DOCTORS HOW TO TREAT US?   The thought of handing Washington power over everyone’s health is   indeed a little spooky. Who can forget the government’s attempt to   "simplify" our income tax forms by adding a mass of befuddling new   instructions?   But look at U.S. health care now. Our doctors already obey legions of   intrusive bureaucrats: Insurance officials regularly demand that your   doctor call for permission to go ahead with treatment. Medicare   officials dictate precisely how long patients can stay in the   hospital. The number of U.S. health care administrator has climbed 3.5   times faster than the number of doctors. In Canada, there are no   meddling insurers, while the government’s main power is in raising   money and paying bills, with minimal monitoring for outlandish   practices. "No one second-guesses me," says the president of British   Columbia’s medical association. "I’ve got clinical freedom."       [While the answer doesn't say so explicitly Canada's system is not     "socialized medicine" [as a Cronkite TV special quickly pointed     out to its audience, trained to fear anything "social" let alone     socialism (which had as much to do with the former Soviet bloc as     does "democracy"; they called themselves that too)] the doctors     are not employed by the state; the doctors and hospitals are     private, but the state, being the sole "buyer", has been given a     lot of power by Canadians to negotiate the prices with the doctors     an hospitals for their services and care. Bite your lip before     reading the next question. –HB] DON’T WE ALREADY HAVE THE WORLD’S BEST HEALTH CARE?   It’s certainly the most expensive. In 1987, we spent $2,050 per   citizen on health care. Canada spent an average of $1,480, most   European nations even less.   Unfortunately, spending the most hasn’t made us the healthiest.   Canada, culturally most like the United States, has an infant   mortality rate 25 percent lower. Their rate of heart disease death is   20 percent lower. Their average life span –77.1 years– is almost two   years longer   WHY NOT JUST FINE-TUNE OUR EXISTING SYSTEM SO IT REACHES ALL THE   PEOPLE WHO AREN’T NOW COVERED?   Many proposals for full U.S. health coverage would require all   businesses (except the smallest) to insure the health of their   workers, with the government looking out for everyone else.   Such fine-tuning can improve our system but won’t really fix its   biggest problem: the billions of dollars we waste every year on   paper-shuffling. (Even the picky Consumers Union recently came to   that same conclusion and endorsed a Canadian-style plan.) In Canada,   according to the latest study, citizens each spent $18 a year for   "administrative" costs," while each of us spent $95 — for a total of   $20 billion more than we would have with Canadian-style care. That’s   not all. Our doctors, hospitals, and nursing homes spend much more   –$62.1 billion by a 1983 estimate– filing out insurance forms,   billing patients, and collecting.  

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[3] Jan/Feb 1991 _In Health_ magazine, which adds that in Canada, according to a recent study, citizens each spent $18 a year for "administrative costs," while each of us spent $95 — for a total of $20 billion more than we would have with Canadian-style care.  Our doctors, hospitals, and nursing homes spend much more — $62.1 billion by a 1983 estimate — filing out insurance forms, billing patients, and collecting. The article notes that compared to other countries, "[The U.S. health care "system"] is certainly the most expensive. In 1987, we spent $2,050 per citizen on health care. Canada spent an average of $1,480, most European nations even less. "Unfortunately, spending the most hasn’t made us the healthiest. Canada, culturally most like the United States, has an infant mortality rate 25 percent lower. Their rate of heart disease death is 20 percent lower. Their average life span — 77.1 years — is almost two years longer" Similar conclusions were reached by a Business magazine [See "Condition Critical" cover story, Business Today, Fall, 1990, which summarized in hard numbers in its charts how "America spends the most... but gets the least"]

Response:

[1] The General Accounting Office [GAO] stated in a 1991 report that "If the universal coverage and single-payer features of the Canadian system were applied in the United States, the savings IN ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS ALONE would be MORE THAN ENOUGH to finance insurance coverage for the millions of Americans who are currently uninsured. There would be ENOUGH LEFT OVER to permit a reduction, or possibly even the elimination, of co-payments and deductibles" [In These Times, June 26-July 9, 1991. My added emphasis] The article also notes that "In 1970 both Canada and the U.S. spent about 7.4 percent of their gross national products on health care. By 1989, The U.S. spent 11.6 of its national income on health and Canada only 8.9 percent. Yet in Canada more health care service was delivered per person than in the U.S., according to a recent report by the U.S. General Accounting Office"

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Billing, administration, and insurance overhead as percentage of total spending: U.S.:           22% Canada:         13.7% U.K.            11.1% and Percentage of premiums consumed by overhead: Private Insurance Companies:              12% (overhead & profits) Public payers (e.g. Medicare, Medicaid):   3% Canadian provincial insurance plans:      under 1%

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** Topic 447    Socialized Medicine?    3 responses ** techie       alt.activism     6:13 am  Jun 19, 1993 ** (at cellar.org)      (From News system) **   **   ** IF WE DON’T STOP THEM, THEY’LL DESTROY AMERICAN MEDICINE **   **     "Now a Presdential team, led by Hillary Rodham Clinton, is determined   ** to apply socialism’s losing strategy to the American medical system.   ** What they plan to do amounts too performing crippling surgey on a   ** patient who needs only to be  left alone." "John Kennedy made federally guaranteed health care for older American a key element of his presidential campaign platform. But even Medicare, a boon for tens of millions of the elderly — not to mention doctors and hospitals — was enacted over the strident opposition of the AMA. Calling it `SOCIALIZED MEDICINE,’ the AMA enlisted a HOLLYWOOD ACTOR NAMED RONALD REAGAN to help block the program on Capitol Hill. "`If you and I don’t stop’ Medicade, Reagan warned on a phonograph record the AMA sent to doctors’ wives, `WE’LL SPEND OUR SUNSET YEARS TELLING OUR CHILDREN and children’s children what it was like in America when men were free.’" FROM                  What’s Blocking HEALTH CARE REFORM?          For all the finger pointing, the real culprit may be            lawmakers’ addiction to medical industry money.                   By Vicki Kemper and Viveca Novak. —  Excerpted from Common Cause magazine, Jan-March 1992, —             (Vol 18 Number 1, cover story).

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EIGHT MYTHS about National Health Insurance (Pt II)     An office visit that’s $52 in Seattle is $18 in Vancouver     (Canada).  That’s because, among other things, they’ve given their     government power to bargain with doctors and hospitals over fees.     “before you reflexively holler "No new taxes," consider what     you’re already paying…in existing state and federal taxes,     insurance premiums, payroll deductions, deferred wages,     deductibles, copayments, and ordinary cash transactions with     doctors and hospitals. Canadians pay their once in taxes but get     more care — for $600 *LESS* OUT OF EACH CITIZEN’S EARNINGS. Last     year our country spent $640 billion on health care. With a     Canadian-style system, at Canadian rates, we could cover everyone     for $365 billion.  ” "Here are eight objections and the rejoinders." "Health Assurance" — Jan/Feb issue of _In Health_, by Anthony Schmitz   "When pollsters asked U.S. citizens if they’d prefer Canadian health       care over their own, 72 percent said yes. As for the number of             Canadians who’d choose the U.S. system: 3 percent"   "`You’ve got to remember, you’ve got a waiting list as well, but it’s   not as obvious. If you’re poor and you don’t have insurance, you don’t       go to a surgeon. In the States you ration by ability to pay.’"   THERE’S NO WAY THE GOVERNMENT CAN PAY FOR EVERY AMERICAN’S   CARE WITHOUT RAISING TAXES THROUGH THE ROOF.   The federal government *would* have to come up with billions of   dollars more than the $115 billion it now spends on its health   programs for the poor and aged. Some could come from income taxes,   some from luxury taxes on cigarettes or cosmetic surgery. In Canada,   several provinces charge a small monthly premium.   But before you reflexively holler "No new taxes," consider what you’re   already paying. That grand total of $2,050 we spend per citizen doesn’t   come out of thin air. It comes in dribs and drabs out of your own   earnings — in existing state and federal taxes, insurance premiums,   payroll deductions, deferred wages, deductibles, copayments, and   ordinary cash transactions with doctors and hospitals. Canadians pay   their once in taxes but get more care — for $600 *less* out of each   citizen’s earnings. Last year our country spent $640 billion on health   care. With a Canadian-style system, at Canadian rates, we could cover   everyone for $365 billion.   WOULDN’T NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE MEAN THAT AMERICANS WHO ARE NOW   FULLY INSURED MIGHT HAVE TO SETTLE FOR LESS?   In Canada, provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental   care, eyeglasses, prescription drugs, ambulance service, and private   hospital rooms, — so many Canadians do end up buying some private   insurance. A policy to cover all of these things runs about #40 to $40   a month.   In fact, however, most people in the United States don’t really have   full coverage. Overall, American insurance now covers just 74 percent   of the costs of doctors’ services, 39 percent of dentists’ services,   and 25 percent of prescription drug charges. We pay the rest out of   pocket.   WOULDN’T FREE CARE ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO RUN TO THE DOCTOR FOR EVERY   ACHE AND PAIN?   People who get free treatment *do* go to the doctor and hospital about   a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical   bills.   Still, Canadians — who pay nothing at the doctor’s — have a lower   per-person health bill than we do. That’s because, among other things,   they’ve given their government power to bargain with doctors and   hospitals over fees. An office visit that’s $52 in Seattle is $18 in   Vancouver.   DOESN’T LETTING DOCTORS SEND PATIENTS’ BILLS STRAIGHT TO THE   GOVERNMENT LEAD TO MORE NEEDLESS TREATMENTS AND TESTS?   When patients get free care and doctors can charge no more than a set   amount per treatment, the tide does tend to run toward more and more   treatment. Studies in Canada have shown jumps in the number of   doctors’ billings –and in their incomes– after the government froze   their fees.   But the same thing’s now going on in this country — except here   federal regulators *and* private insurers have been trying, with even   less success, to keep a lid on physicians’ incomes. Last decade   American doctors increased their cut of the national income by 40   percent while Canadian doctors captured only another 10 percent.   ISN’T THE PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY JUST TOO BIG   AND POWERFUL TO KILL?   Dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be   "politically thorny," in the quiet words of one advocate for a   national plan. Some 1,200 firms now sell more than $192 billion in   health insurance. They’d put up a hard fight. Not only has the industry   grown eightfold since Canada shut down its own health insurers, but our   government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does   Canada’s parliamentary system.   Still, there’s no legal barrier to making health insurance an American   public service. The states have broad powers to legislate business   affairs and to promote citizens’ health. Likewise, the federal   government can use its control of tax revenues   — as it does with highway funds — to set standards for the states.  

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  " Taking a Look at the German Prescription "  by Henrik Bering-Jensen     How realistic is it to talk about adopting another country’s health     care system?  Not very, according to John Iglehart, the national     correspondent for the New England Journal of Medicine…     Every country has distinct political, economic and social     characteristics that make such copying difficult.

I’ll concur with that … on the surface, Canada and France and Germany use the most expensive approach of providing pure health insurance, uncontrolled, to pay for private doctors and hospitals. No HMO’s, except for a small clone of the British National Health Service in France to cover the poorest French (their system has a schedule of copayments and deductibles, and is closest to that you Americans have as private insurance).  However, people need less of it … thus lower costs.     Many of the problems that beset the United States are not     really health problems as such, but social problems.  For instance,     the American health care system has to deal with a percentage of     sickness and injury brought on by violence or self-destructive     behavior that is high compared with othe industrialized countries.

Okay, but there is also the fact that Canadian, French and German people are encouraged to practice preventive medicine (not forced) and get an annual checkup … so the insurance pays $50 now to save $5000 later.  Only a small number of American coverage as come to recognize that.     Furthermore, according to Schwartz [ of Health Policy International ]     treating everyone with the maximum high-tech care available     invariably sends costs up in proportion to the level of social     pathologies that cause health problems.

Okay … but also remember that a lot of high tech advances in the U.S. came about because people didn’t get simple stuff checked out earlier, and it mushroomed in all sorts of wild and wonderful ways. But other high tech care, other countries are nose-to-nose with the U.S. … infant care is led by the Germans, and Canadians are leaders in neurology (lots of Americans go to the Montreal Neuro- logical Institute … private).  In other words, because we’re FREE, our health care costs more.  I say let the socialists who want to control me, and convert me  into a high-yield government resource, go to EUROPE.

Most of the European systems (like Canada) were installed by their pro-business parties to the cries and derisions of socialists. You have to remember that values can differ between societies … me and Gerald Olchowy are a couple of the most pro-business Canadians on USENET yet we don’t equate basic health needs with ownership of a VCR … but we’re not Americans. gld — Gary L. Dare                            Montreal Canadiens, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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      "We hear a great deal about the supposed wonders of the Canadian socialized medicine system, " notes Mr. Mcmanus. "Yet the inevitable problems of government control over medicine have come home to roost in Canada, as they already have in Britain and other nations where government controls medicine."

Doctors in Canada are all private.  Hospitals are mostly private non-profit and public.  Britain is entirely different, they have what is essentially a national HMO (actually, HMO is based on the UK National Health Service).     The Birch Society isn’t alone in pointing out that Canadian patients must now pay for services they thought would be "free." They never were free of course, because Canadians have been heavily taxed to pay for them.

When state taxes, health insurance and various "user fees" are added to federal tax rates, Americans come out marginally ahead of their Canadian cousins.  Such comparisons are constantly being grinded on Soc.culture.canadas … retail prices are better in the U.S. because of higher volume purchasing (w/10+ times more people!) and efficient distribution (Canada has more middlemen involved, but that is in the process of changing thankfully). With "free" medical care, many more Canadians applied for it; and doctors who are paid based on case load are either rushing patients through or supplying services that are not called for.

Doctors are paid on a per-procedure basis just like in the U.S. because the system is only insurance.  It is true that all costs are covered and billing is invisible … I’ve always thought that it was a shortfall.  However, Canadians use LESS health care and are a healthier society … that offsets use of the most expensive approach possible, all insurance and no HMO’s.  Padding of bills is happening in the U.S., not Canada … in that respect, I’m glad that Canadian society is more innocent and naive … "Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?"

WRONG!!!  Americans regularly attend the Montreal Neurological Institute.  But your papers don’t care to write about it because they feel that their readers don’t care to see that.  Also, last autumn investigations have revealed widespread fraud by Americans embezzling health insurance cards from Canadian provincial plans, either individually or trafficked by fraud rings.  UPI Clarinet covered this, and other Canadian readers can corroborate from reading their local newspapers (it is very, very widespread). He cites a recent NEW YORK TIMES report listing lengthly waiting periods in Canada for various types of surgery.

This was in early March and the article said no such thing.  In fact, I’ve referenced that same article by John F. Burns to show quite the opposite.  Small markets have otherwise ALWAYS affected Canada’s infrastructure. And he also points to another report showing that the government-run medical bureau in Western Canada recently sent 200 patients to Seattle for treatment it could not supply.

There is no such thing as a "government-run medical bureau" anywhere in Canada.  The "system" is only insurance paying out to a private health care infrastructure (payment =/= practice!) *after the fact*. Nobody in Canada, France or Germany is told how to spend their benefits.  Because of transient demand in this one case many years ago (but you wouldn’t know that in America), where all local private doctors were busy, people were reminded that they could get their procedure done elsewhere and can apply for reimbursement (it is, after all, just insurance).  In fact, those British Columbians had the flexibility of coverage that a lot of Americans would not have had. And they were free individuals acting on their own, not herded cattle as the speaker would suggest. Most Americans don’t know that our system of health CARE is private, and always has been, but the basic health INSURANCE is public … and not because of socialists, but because Canada is set up like the world’s biggest company town.  The health insurance industry and the CMA doctors’ monopoly was in on it, too, ‘cos the former still sells additional private benefits without the risks of basic (now making more money) while the doctors are ALL private and set the insurance rates, plus prohibited HMO’s (U.S. HMO practice is derived from the British National Health Service, which is REAL socialized medicine).  Only the Liberals and Conservatives were in power to enact the insurance transition; the socialist NDP were out of power everywhere, anywhere. OHIP was the cornerstone of a five-term Conservative dynasty under John P. Robarts and William G. Davis in Ontario. We have real socialists up north, not strawman "liberals", and they wanted a National Health Service like the British have … a method found in private form as HMO in the U.S.  The "Canadian system" is a backstab upon them, but that hasn’t stopped them from running around trying to take the credit; American redbaiters have eaten it up, apparently. gld — Gary L. Dare                            Montreal Canadiens, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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IF WE DON’T STOP THEM, THEY’LL DESTROY AMERICAN MEDICINE     "Now a Presdential team, led by Hillary Rodham Clinton, is determined to apply socialism’s losing strategy to the American medical system. What they plan to do amounts too performing crippling surgey on a patient who needs only to be  left alone."        So states John F. McManus, the national  president of the John Birch Society. The organization has frequently spoken out about the dangers inherent in socialized medicine and is continuing to do so in the face of stepped-up movement in that direction by the Clinton Adminstration."We hear a great deal about the supposed wonders of the Canadian socialized medicine system, " notes Mr. Mcmanus. "Yet the inevitable problems of government control over medicine have come home to roost in Canada, as they already have in Britain and other nations where government controls medicine."      The Birch Society isn’t alone in pointing out that Canadian patients must now pay for services they thought would be "free." They never were free of course, because Canadians have been heavily taxed to pay for them. With "free" medical care, many more Canadians applied for it; and doctors who are paid based on case load are either rushing patients through  or supplying services that are not called for. "The system is breaking down."        "Americans have never journeyed to Canada for health care," states the Society leader. "Why should they when they’ve got the best in the world right here?" He cites a recent NEW YORK TIMES report listing lengthly waiting periods in Canada for various types of surgery. And he also points to another report showing that the government-run medical bureau in Western Canada recently sent  200 patients to Seattle for treatment it could not supply.     According to the Birch Society leader, the cost of American health care has risen "because of too much government involvement already. If we don’t stop them, they’ll drive the cost through the roof while they throw the quality out the window."       "If you want a good example of the harm federal control does, take a look at education in America," insists Mr. McManus. "Federal aid started flowing to education 40 years ago and the quality has gone sharply down hill ever since.. Wisdom dictates that Americans refuse to allow other bureaucrats to get their hands on medicine." The Birch Society contends that less government, not more, would help to make our nation’s health care system even finer. John F. McManus National President of the John Birchh Society 770 Westhill Blvd. Appleton, WI 54915-5787 Call 1-800-JBS-USA1 and have a major credit ready for our $5.00 Informational packet. —— The Cellar BBS – (215) 539-3043

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IF WE DON’T STOP THEM, THEY’LL DESTROY AMERICAN MEDICINE    "Now a Presdential team, led by Hillary Rodham Clinton, is determined to apply socialism’s losing strategy to the American medical system. What they plan to do amounts too performing crippling surgey on a patient who needs only to be  left alone."

Excerpts from "Insight" magazine, June 28, 1993    " Taking a Look at the German Prescription "  by Henrik Bering-Jensen      How realistic is it to talk about adopting another country’s health      care system?  Not very, according to John Iglehart, the national      correspondent for the New England Journal of Medicine…      Every country has distinct political, economic and social      characteristics that make such copying difficult.      Many of the problems that beset the United States are not      really health problems as such, but social problems.  For instance,      the American health care system has to deal with a percentage of      sickness and injury brought on by violence or self-destructive      behavior that is high compared with othe industrialized countries.      Furthermore, according to Schwartz [ of Health Policy International ]      treating everyone with the maximum high-tech care available      invariably sends costs up in proportion to the level of social      pathologies that cause health problems.      But once these pathologies are factored out, he says, the American      system compares very nicely with other systems in terms of both      results and costs ".   In other words, because we’re FREE, our health care costs more.   I say let the socialists who want to control me, and convert me   into a high-yield government resource, go to EUROPE.   I truly hope Clinton DOES implement his plan this year.  It should   polish off what’s left of the job market and economy, and INCITE   a REVOLUTION.

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Question:

Have you ever read the options on a W-4?  There is a slot to check for being exempt, however it says in order to be eligible to be exempt you must have filed exempt last year.  Kinda like a Catch-22. Not really.  You can be exempt from taxes in the previous year, but still had withholding in that year.  You are permitted zero withholding in the first year following a year in which you owe no taxes.  No, regretably, I am not familiar wit this thru first hand experience.                                        rob b.

I don’t think you can check the exempt option.  You can’t sign a W-4 or let the IRS even know your name if you don’t want to volunteer to be a part of the tax system.  Is the social security system voluntary also? — Charles S. Hill  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                  Complying with any law is a voluntary act.  If you don’t     voluntarily comply, you can be punished once you are caught.  Driving     55 is voluntary, not robbing banks is voluntary, not committing murder     is voluntary.     Jim McMaster   Complying with laws is MANDATORY.  Breaking them is cause to be punished.   The legal meaning of VOLUNTARY is to act without external persuasion,   compulsion, or legal obligation.     Alan Newman (Speaking for myself.)   Really?  If driving under the speed limit is so "mandatory", how come   so few people do it?  You have a choice…you can voluntarily comply   with a law without coercion, or you can wait to be coerced.  If you   wait to be coerced, punishment follows.   Jim McMaster

You seem to be implying that something can be mandatory only if there is no choice.  That would mean that failure to do that which is mandatory is imposible.  For instance, a speed limit could only be mandatory if there is no way to exceed it.  I agree that the speed limit of light may be mandatory in this sense, but do you really believe this is what mandatory means in a more general sense? According to New Riverside’s Webster’s II Dictionary: MANDATORY  - Required by or as if by mandate; OBLIGATORY OBLIGATORY – Legally or morally binding VOLUNTARY  - Acting or done with no external persuasion or complusion;              without legal obligation You seem to be trying to communicate with specific words whose commonly accepted meanings are the opposite of what you say, as though explaining it is an acceptable way of reversing the meanings of those words. Alan Newman (Again, speaking for myself.)

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Have you ever read the options on a W-4?  There is a slot to check for being exempt, however it says in order to be eligible to be exempt you must have filed exempt last year.  Kinda like a Catch-22.

Not really.  You can be exempt from taxes in the previous year, but still had withholding in that year.  You are permitted zero withholding in the first year following a year in which you owe no taxes.  No, regretably, I am not familiar wit this thru first hand experience.                                         rob b.

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Have you ever read the options on a W-4?  There is a slot to check for being exempt, however it says in order to be eligible to be exempt you must have filed exempt last year.  Kinda like a Catch-22. Not really.  You can be exempt from taxes in the previous year, but still had withholding in that year.  You are permitted zero withholding in the first year following a year in which you owe no taxes.  No, regretably, I am not familiar wit this thru first hand experience.                                        rob b.

I guess the point I was trying to make was, if you have ever paid taxes and then realize you may be exempt, there is no mechanism on the form to allow you to choose "exempt" and meet the criteria as well. John H.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                  Complying with any law is a voluntary act.  If you don’t     voluntarily comply, you can be punished once you are caught.  Driving     55 is voluntary, not robbing banks is voluntary, not committing murder     is voluntary.     Jim McMaster   Complying with laws is MANDATORY.  Breaking them is cause to be punished.   The legal meaning of VOLUNTARY is to act without external persuasion,   compulsion, or legal obligation.     Alan Newman (Speaking for myself.)   Really?  If driving under the speed limit is so "mandatory", how come   so few people do it?  You have a choice…you can voluntarily comply   with a law without coercion, or you can wait to be coerced.  If you   wait to be coerced, punishment follows.   Jim McMaster

Pardon me, I’m still learning how to use this Internet thing. Perhaps my post didn’t make it, so I’ll run this by again, You volunteer by signing a W-4.  By doing this you are saying that of your own acord you have decided that you owe taxes.  If after declaring your taxable status, you don’t follow the Tax Code in respect to how you pay, you have broken a law.  A law that is applicable to you because you said it was when you signed on. Have you ever read the options on a W-4?  There is a slot to check for being exempt, however it says in order to be eligible to be exempt you must have filed exempt last year.  Kinda like a Catch-22. As I indicated in a previous post, I have received my information from a couple of places, the National Commodities and Barter Association and an employee of the IRS who gave a seminar I attended. The IRS you know how to get in touch with. The NCBA can be reached at 800-759-6222. I am in no way affiliated with the NCBA other than receiving their free info-pac and having my questions answered by phone. The IRS and I are more affiliated that I care to be. John Holland

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   : who voluntarily comply with the tax laws and pay their fair share,        Isn’t this an oxymoron, how can you be jailed for NOT volunteering?        Okay, either its voluntary on its not!  Why does the department of        justice (JUST US fasists) and the IRS admit that its voluntary and        then slam dunk those who choose not to volunteer?        Oh! Now I get it, more typical govermental double talk!   Not at all.  Complying with any law is a voluntary act.  If you don’t   voluntarily comply, you can be punished once you are caught.  Driving   55 is voluntary, not robbing banks is voluntary, not committing murder   is voluntary.   …   Jim McMaster Complying with laws is MANDATORY.  Breaking them is cause to be punished. The legal meaning of VOLUNTARY is to act without external persuasion, compulsion, or legal obligation.  This is a perfect example of governmental double talk. Alan Newman (Speaking for myself.)

Really?  If driving under the speed limit is so "mandatory", how come so few people do it?  You have a choice…you can voluntarily comply with a law without coercion, or you can wait to be coerced.  If you wait to be coerced, punishment follows. And just for the record, I have no connection with government at any level, other than as a citizen. Jim McMaster

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– – So the DoJ expects us to be scared because 200 people have been or will – be indicted?  If that’s the best they can do, I’m not worried.  I bet – that’s a small fraction of those who fail to file returns. On the other hand, that could be just the ones they’re TELLING you about. How many others are they not publicizing? —  - or – ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave                      |  Sys. <* Admin. |

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  : who voluntarily comply with the tax laws and pay their fair share,        Isn’t this an oxymoron, how can you be jailed for NOT volunteering?        Okay, either its voluntary on its not!  Why does the department of        justice (JUST US fasists) and the IRS admit that its voluntary and        then slam dunk those who choose not to volunteer?        Oh! Now I get it, more typical govermental double talk!   Not at all.  Complying with any law is a voluntary act.  If you don’t   voluntarily comply, you can be punished once you are caught.  Driving   55 is voluntary, not robbing banks is voluntary, not committing murder   is voluntary.

   …   Jim McMaster

Complying with laws is MANDATORY.  Breaking them is cause to be punished. The legal meaning of VOLUNTARY is to act without external persuasion, compulsion, or legal obligation.  This is a perfect example of governmental double talk. Alan Newman (Speaking for myself.)

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        It is my understanding that a person "volunteers" when they fill out a W-4 or if self employed, files for a "Tax ID #".         After you have done this you have admitted to having dertimined on your own that you owe taxes.         If after doing this you fail to follow the "Tax Code", then you are breaking the law.  This law only applies to the "Volunteers".         I don’t think I am any kind of expert on tax law, but I know of some folks who are.         I gleaned my information, and you can too, from the National Commodaties and Barter Association at 800-759-6222.  They sent me a large amount of material that really piqued my interest in finding out more.  The package is free.         The literature indicated they have a multi-volume library of court cases and related information regarding people who decided to un-volunteer and succeeded. (no longer pay taxes, nor live behind bars)         I’m interested and will be looking into it more, and I invite anyone well versed in this topic to do the same and let me know about it.           At a recent tax seminar I attended, I cornered the IRS Representative and asked them about "volunteering to pay taxes" and most folks probably being exempt.  I was told "It is true" by the rep and then asked not to reveal the source in any future referances due to the fact that IRS employees take an oath vowing to not reveal anything that would stand in the way of collecting more tax.         From what I have seen and heard it’s beginning to sound less and less far-fetched.  I will continue to look into it.  BTW I am in no way connected with NCBA other than having received their info-pakand talked to them on the phone (they will answer questions on their nickel).  I regret that I am more associated with the IRS than I care to be.         John Holland

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - (Jim McMaster) writes: : who voluntarily comply with the tax laws and pay their fair share,      Isn’t this an oxymoron, how can you be jailed for NOT volunteering?      Okay, either its voluntary on its not!  Why does the department of      justice (JUST US fasists) and the IRS admit that its voluntary and      then slam dunk those who choose not to volunteer?      Oh! Now I get it, more typical govermental double talk! Not at all.  Complying with any law is a voluntary act.  If you don’t voluntarily comply, you can be punished once you are caught.  Driving 55 is voluntary, not robbing banks is voluntary, not committing murder is voluntary.

I can think of an example were this distinction (voluntary vs. involuntary compliance with the law) made a difference, a long time ago: being Drafted. (Are there any old geezers like me that remember The Draft? Yes, kids, there really was a time, not so long ago, when you really could get a greetings from Uncle Sam, ordering you to join the Army, with a couple of years in jail as the alternative!) Well, when I was going through Draft Counseling, it was explained that when you were "inducted", your joining the Army was voluntary.  If you refused, you could be put in jail, but this was a *civilian* offense.  Only after you "voluntarily" joined were you subject to military rules and laws. This had a very practical significance: those who became CO’s (Conscientious Objectors — remember them?) *before* induction only risked *civilian* prison, and had all the usual constitutional rights, at least as long as they consistently refused to "step forward" (that was how you joined.)  Those who became CO’s *afterwards* (or after joining the military in any other way) risked — and risk — court-martial and *military* prison, and have a more restricted set of rights.  At the time, at least, a civilian prison, however bad, was considered to be a *lot* better than military prison. If induction had been really compulsory, as it is, I believe, in some countries (Switzerland among them?), there would have been no such offense as "refusing induction", and those who resisted would have been court-martialled as deserters (as some CO’s in the military did, and were, during the Gulf War.) — Courant Institute,NYU,USA     …!cmcl2!cims.nyu.edu!mckenney   (UUCP) — Courant Institute,NYU,USA     …!cmcl2!cims.nyu.edu!mckenney   (UUCP)

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If induction had been really compulsory, as it is, I believe, in some countries (Switzerland among them?), there would have been no such offense as "refusing induction", and those who resisted would have been court-martialled as deserters (as some CO’s in the military did, and were, during the Gulf War.)

As I understand the Swiss situation from talking to Swiss friends, national service of some sort is compulsory (for males), but it is possible to do it without joining the military, e.g., by being a firefighter, if you are a CO.   But I may be wrong (perhaps my CO firefighting friend was in fact inducted into the Swiss army and only then assigned firefighting in lieu of prison). LR

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: who voluntarily comply with the tax laws and pay their fair share,      Isn’t this an oxymoron, how can you be jailed for NOT volunteering?      Okay, either its voluntary on its not!  Why does the department of      justice (JUST US fasists) and the IRS admit that its voluntary and      then slam dunk those who choose not to volunteer?      Oh! Now I get it, more typical govermental double talk!

Not at all.  Complying with any law is a voluntary act.  If you don’t voluntarily comply, you can be punished once you are caught.  Driving 55 is voluntary, not robbing banks is voluntary, not committing murder is voluntary. Tax protesters make too much of this single word when it is uttered by the IRS.  There is simply no way for them to come to everyone’s door and stand over you with a stick to make you fill out your return.  Not doing so is a crime, though, so you are liable for penalties (clearly spelled out in the tax code) and criminal fines and jail time for not voluntarily doing so.        Ah yes, the catch 22, if you are determined to be liable for a tax        then you must file a return or a statement.  Thing is, you can’t be        Sounds to me that the IRS is starting to panic a bit about more and        more folks catching on to their scam.

Oh, no…another of these morons.  This particular line of crap has been thrown out of court numerous times.  Buying it is a ticket to prison. —   |_/_/_/  _/       _/      _/_/  _/  _/ | David H. Slack                  |

Jim McMaster

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So, I get the message re: not filing: 1) $10B = 100,000 taxpayers x $100,000 each. $100,000 is a great over-estimate of the average tax bill. 2) They got 180 of them in 6 months.  This is , lets be generous, 500 per year. So, the chances are 1 in 2000 per year, or 1 in 200 per 10 year period. Of course, lower than that, because we were so generous in our estimates. What is the statute of limitations for unfiled taxes?

I don’t believe there is a statute of limitations if intentional fraud is involved.         Randy Marks (UUCP)                  {decvax,ucbvax,allegra}!decwrl!ssdevo.enet!marks         "No man’s life, liberty, or property is safe         while the legislature is in session."

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So, I get the message re: not filing: 1) $10B = 100,000 taxpayers x $100,000 each. $100,000 is a great over-estimate of the average tax bill. 2) They got 180 of them in 6 months.  This is , lets be generous, 500 per year. So, the chances are 1 in 2000 per year, or 1 in 200 per 10 year period. Of course, lower than that, because we were so generous in our estimates. What is the statute of limitations for unfiled taxes? All in all, looks like real good odds to me. Lew — "Perspective is worth 80 IQ points."  Niels Bohr (or somebody like that).

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2) They got 180 of them in 6 months.  This is , lets be generous, 500 per year. So, the chances are 1 in 2000 per year, or 1 in 200 per 10 year period. Of course, lower than that, because we were so generous in our estimates. All in all, looks like real good odds to me.

Of course, the odds for YOU just got much worse.    :) — Sverdrup Technology, NASA Lewis Research Center Group, Cleveland, Ohio favorite book title: Attack of the Deranged Mutant Killer Monster Snow Goons

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So the DoJ expects us to be scared because 200 people have been or will be indicted?  If that’s the best they can do, I’m not worried.  I bet that’s a small fraction of those who fail to file returns. —

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: Here is a press release from the U.S. Department of Justice. : :  Justice Department Sounds Warning to Tax Nonfilers :  To: National Desk :  Contact: U.S. Department of Justice, 202-514-2007 [deleted] :    "It is appropriate to view these indictments as sending a dual : message," said Michael L. Paup, acting assistant attorney general : in charge of the Tax Division.  "To the vast majority of Americans : who voluntarily comply with the tax laws and pay their fair share,       Isn’t this an oxymoron, how can you be jailed for NOT volunteering?       Okay, either its voluntary on its not!  Why does the department of       justice (JUST US fasists) and the IRS admit that its voluntary and       then slam dunk those who choose not to volunteer?       Oh! Now I get it, more typical govermental double talk! [deleted] : the message is one of fairness and equality — that your         From the goverment, right…… 8^) [deleted] :    The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) estimates that more than $7 : billion in tax revenue is lost annually due to individuals not : filing their tax returns.  These nonfilers, who include persons : from every walk of life and all regions of the country, account : or a significant portion of the so-called "tax gap" — the : difference in the amount of tax that should be collected from : taxpayers and the amount of tax that is voluntarily paid by         Hmmm…. Here we go again, claiming its voluntary.  Even from the         mouth of the IRS its self.  Go figure. [deleted] :    "The Internal Revenue Service has been working hard in recent : months to encourage nonfilers to return to the taxpaying rolls : voluntarily.  These criminal prosecutions make clear the         Sorta like the Jim Baker trying to get more saps to join his flock. [deleted] :    The Department of Justice and the IRS have made it a priority : to investigate and prosecute cases in which persons liable for tax : fail to file returns or evade taxes.  Both organizations are         Ah yes, the catch 22, if you are determined to be liable for a tax         then you must file a return or a statement.  Thing is, you can’t be         Sounds to me that the IRS is starting to panic a bit about more and         more folks catching on to their scam. —    |_/_/_/  _/       _/      _/_/  _/  _/ | David H. Slack                  |    |_/      _/      _/_/    _/     _/ _/  | Boise Surface Mount Center      |    |_/_/_/  _/_/ _/      _   _/_/  _/  _/ | phone: (208) 323 4019           |    | Hewlett-Packard, 11213 Chinden Blvd., Boise Idaho 83714-1023, M/S #625 |

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Here is a press release from the U.S. Department of Justice.  Justice Department Sounds Warning to Tax Nonfilers  To: National Desk  Contact: U.S. Department of Justice, 202-514-2007   WASHINGTON, April 13  – The Department of Justice announced today that more than 100 individuals have been charged with failing to file their income tax returns between Nov. 1, 1992, and April 1, 1993.    The department said the indictments were returned in 39 different judicial districts across the country and that it intends to seek indictments or file informations in approximately 80 additional cases during the next several weeks.    "It is appropriate to view these indictments as sending a dual message," said Michael L. Paup, acting assistant attorney general in charge of the Tax Division.  "To the vast majority of Americans who voluntarily comply with the tax laws and pay their fair share, the message is one of fairness and equality — that your government will ensure that those who do not comply with the tax laws are brought to justice.  To those who have committed tax crimes or are contemplating doing so, the message is a warning — that there will be severe consequences to your actions.    "To ensure that this message strikes home to virtually every individual and business in the country, our non-filer program takes great care that indictments cover a wide spectrum of occupations, businesses, income brackets, regions of the country and types of violations," added Paup.    Among the individuals charged with failing to file their returns were: tax return preparers, roofers, building contractors, certified public accountants, car dealers, salespersons, realtors, attorneys, sole proprietors, doctors and factory workers.  The income unreported by these individuals ranged from less than $10,000 to more than $1 million.    The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) estimates that more than $7 billion in tax revenue is lost annually due to individuals not filing their tax returns.  These nonfilers, who include persons from every walk of life and all regions of the country, account or a significant portion of the so-called "tax gap" — the difference in the amount of tax that should be collected from taxpayers and the amount of tax that is voluntarily paid by taxpayers with their returns.  It is the primary mission of the department and the IRS to increase taxpayer’s compliance with the tax laws and to help minimize the "tax gap."    "The Internal Revenue Service has been working hard in recent months to encourage nonfilers to return to the taxpaying rolls voluntarily.  These criminal prosecutions make clear the serious consequences of not heeding that call and of ignoring the legal responsibility to file tax returns," said Paup.    The Department of Justice and the IRS have made it a priority to investigate and prosecute cases in which persons liable for tax fail to file returns or evade taxes.  Both organizations are committed to enhanced enforcement efforts over the next year.  -30- —

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