Question:

  Point is, Bush IS going WAY too far and looks very much as if   he’d enjoy the unlimited power of monarchy (without constitutional   limitations).

Bush currently has no constitutional limitations ever since he declared the "State of Emergency" in September.  Whatever "limitations" he acts under are purely voluntary. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection.   I LOVE IT!!! KISSES AND HUGS! I LOVE IT!  I have blessed you.  Many good tings shall soom come your way.

Thanks, Raven. — theoneflasehaddock

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wrote, in alt.slack: Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing… I KNOW…. Dictatorial powers will certainly be a boon to the world… King George II said it himself…things would be so much easier if he was dictator. Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t.   There’s a difference tween being a liberloon and satirical humor.   Point is, Bush IS going WAY too far and looks very much as if   he’d enjoy the unlimited power of monarchy (without constitutional   limitations).   That said, THE CONSERVALOONS ARE PROVIDING ALL THE MATERIAL, you   don’t RILLY spect us to just IGNORE IT do you?

Yes, would you please?  And take that Constitution and the Bill of Rights pinko commie stuff when you go, if you would. That stuff just stands in the way of what Mr. Bush has planned for America. — Dial M: http://www.LisaMcPherson.COM Dial F: http://www.SlatkinFraud.COM/ Dial R: http://www.RaulLopez.ORG/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t. Do you even know my position on issues?  You are anti-radical from both sides of the aisle…Have I demonstrated different? I don’t mind people leveling insults, if those people actually know me, and simply disagree with me…but I cannot tolerate a fool who will attack me for something I didn’t even know I stood for.  I guarantee you, I am not your typical liberal, even if I do stand for many of their platforms…lets compare positions…then maybe you can back-up your slander

You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

First of all, Dipshit…I didn’t quote anything.  Secondly, branding me liberal or "loony" (i.e. intertwined with the numinousness of Luna, the moon…the irrational unconscious, or shadow self) is of no consequence to me.  Being considered unfavorable by someone such as yourself redeems me and lets me know that I’m not like you.  Thank you

No, you silly twit, your response to me has proven quite nicely that YOU ARE VERY MUCH LIKE ME!!!!  Had you responded with kindness, gentleness, love, mercy, and deep understanding, then you would have proven that you’re unlike me.  But your response is the same level of low-grad brain-dead crap that I spew.  Thus, you and I are as one! Indeed, for all I know, you ARE me. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

I love random intejections of meaningless information desgined only in order to boast about one’s intelligence.

Not me, I hate that shit now. I used to love the shit out of it too but once at the factory I set the design to randomly interject meaningful information by accident, and it was boosting my unintelligence until I was too dumb to catch the mistake. Now they don’t let me near the machine because they say the drool is bad on the parts. -Col. Sphinx Drummond TWSR

Response:

I love random intejections of meaningless information desgined only in order to boast about one’s intelligence.  Let’s all put these random (seemingly chaotic instances, which are in fact completely determinable) factoids into little asides.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, Dipshit…I didn’t quote anything.  Secondly, branding me liberal or "loony" (i.e. intertwined with the numinousness of Luna, the moon…the irrational unconscious, or shadow self) is of no consequence to me.  Being considered unfavorable by someone such as yourself redeems me and lets me know that I’m not like you.  Thank you for the compliment. good to get ta know ya!  ;^) http://www.thelema.net/hml/hecate.html You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon.

Response:

Oddly enough, the dribble that the liberloons are spewing out right now sounds a great deal like the dribble that the conservaloons spewed a few years ago, just substitute different buzzwords.

For example…what is this ‘dribble’?  I’m not saying its not out there, but lets hear what some of the charges are against teflon gorgie….Lets hear what some of the ‘Loons" have to say: I’ve heard alot of people call him a special interest laden flunky for corrupt and dangerous giant corporations. I guess thats PRETTY loonie! I’ve heard alot of people claim that he’s an environmental distaster…as he removes protections of vital and scant wildlands, meanwhile the burgeoning population swarms like locusts to destroy it. Gosh..that IS loonie! I’ve heard alot of people claim that he’s a power thirsty, belligerent (means war loving…not specifically violent), secretive and arrogant ‘leader’ (and I would hardly call him that, unless you’d consider the Pied-Piper a leader)… I’ve heard alot of people say that he’s not particularly bright (for a a president of the USoA, that is), or gifted…other than that a scheming, dangerous, morally bankrupt, intellectually antiquated and populous part of society likes to sponsor him with billions and billions of dollars…probably not earned by them…but ~managed~ by them. How loony is that? Its time for the managament to let us, The Public, We the People,  see their accounting sheets….   But where did they go? What lunacy is this?! "Uh…..    it was an accident…and I backed up, and my hand fell on the shredder…and it just…turned on!"   bursts out sobbing…focus in on sad tears on the cheek… the outro music…. It reassures….. Fade…

Response:

First of all, Dipshit…I didn’t quote anything.  Secondly, branding me liberal or "loony" (i.e. intertwined with the numinousness of Luna, the moon…the irrational unconscious, or shadow self) is of no consequence to me.  Being considered unfavorable by someone such as yourself redeems me and lets me know that I’m not like you.  Thank you for the compliment. good to get ta know ya!  ;^) http://www.thelema.net/hml/hecate.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon.

Response:

lol, apparently you don’t like President Tree (Bush)? i dont like him much either, but as the bumper stickers say… "Don’t Mess With Texas!"   lol, texas is great, but bush is to…um….conservative (among other things)? for my taste – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection. — theoneflasehaddock

Response:

in alt.slack: ps…I was agreeing with your post…and then responding to glassnost… People are posting some strange responses today…   Consider the locale.   <G

or the mercury-retrograde. ‘imp’

Response:

Oddly enough, the dribble that the liberloons are spewing out right now sounds a great deal like the dribble that the conservaloons spewed a few years ago, just substitute different buzzwords.

You are on the very doorstep of enlightenment with this comment.   — "Remember, the plural of ‘moron’ is ‘focus group’." — James A. Wolf

Response:

Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month I LOVE IT!!! KISSES AND HUGS! I LOVE IT!  I have blessed you.  Many good tings shall soom come your way.

When he takes Canada, will anybody either notice or care? Canada’s money and political crittering is so close to the United States’ (I hope I don’t anger Canadians with such a slur) that we could adopt eachother easily enough. — Dial M: http://www.LisaMcPherson.COM Dial F: http://www.SlatkinFraud.COM/ Dial R: http://www.RaulLopez.ORG/

Response:

You’re willing to be so stupid as to mindlessly reproduce quotes out of context.  You’re a liberloon.

Gee, no ‘conservative’ would EVER do that, right? Go bother some gamers.  Or maybe go email C++. — "Remember, the plural of ‘moron’ is ‘focus group’." — James A. Wolf

Response:

ps…I was agreeing with your post…and then responding to glassnost… People are posting some strange responses today…

Response:

(Theoneflasehaddock) wrote, in alt.slack: Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas,   Gawd, I’m glad I’m not the only one that perceives the git   as wanting to be King.

If that were what he really wanted, he would already be there.  Of course, it is far more comforting and far less scary to say that Bush is an idiot or that he is an evil powermonger (or an evil idiot powermonger) than to admit to the truly terrifying possibility: That Dubya very well might be a reasonably intelligent man using the skills he has at hand to defend and improve the USA and that nobody else in his position would likely do much better (although the screwups would be in different directions). It’s SOOOOOO much easier to suck on your woobie and say "he bad man" than admit that the situation might be something that nobody can handle well. Oddly enough, the dribble that the liberloons are spewing out right now sounds a great deal like the dribble that the conservaloons spewed a few years ago, just substitute different buzzwords. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection. — theoneflasehaddock

Response:

(Theoneflasehaddock) considered running, but paused to say: ~Washington – ~Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States ~constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of ~congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and ~Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful ~waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The ~new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has ~been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." ~However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and ~all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection. Oooh, that just rings too true.

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September.

Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing… — What would you do if the people you knew Were the plastic that melted And the chromium too?             – Frank Zappa – dlindner (at) socal (dot) rr (dot) com –

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing…

Yeah!  And after all, it works so well for Castro.  }:-} — Dial M: http://www.LisaMcPherson.COM Dial F: http://www.SlatkinFraud.COM/ Dial R: http://www.RaulLopez.ORG/

Response:

Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing…

I KNOW…. Dictatorial powers will certainly be a boon to the world… King George II said it himself…things would be so much easier if he was dictator. God Blast the King!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, on the day that he declared a "State of Emergency", this activated all FEMA-related regulations, which _de facto_ suspends the Constitution.  Bush essentially rules by decree at the moment and has since September. Gee. You say that like it’s a *bad* thing… I KNOW…. Dictatorial powers will certainly be a boon to the world… King George II said it himself…things would be so much easier if he was dictator.

Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t. — "A ‘Cape Cod Salsa’ just isn’t right."

Response:

Washington – Yesterday King George II, of Texas, finally disolved the United States constitution. He has declared it null and void, as a result of congress telling him he can’t invade North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and Canada, until sometime next month. He has declared the delay an "awful waste of time" and a "liberal plot to delay the new world order." The new government, in which King George II is the supreme governor, has been termed by other countries as an "Unconstitutional Moronarchy." However, the U.S. public will not be told about the development, and all who talk about it will be sent to Texas and given an injection.

  I LOVE IT!!! KISSES AND HUGS! I LOVE IT!  I have blessed you.  Many good tings shall soom come your way. — http://anneli.com/blackbane IRC : /server anneli.com #witchcraft creator of alt.witchcraft creator of alt.traditional.witchcraft original creator of alt.religion.wicca don’t like my postings, then go to:   alt.religion.wicca.moderated                                           //// /// ‘~ (    —–                                                    // /  // :    ) —–    Raven                                             /  /  /  /)   / —-    BlackBane                                                /   //..\       A Real Witch

Response:

Y’know, liberloons would look less loony than conservaloons if the liberloons would bother remembering context when they try to pick daft quotes.  But, being typical liberloons, every bit as stupid as conservaloons, they don’t.

Do you even know my position on issues?  You are anti-radical from both sides of the aisle…Have I demonstrated different? I don’t mind people leveling insults, if those people actually know me, and simply disagree with me…but I cannot tolerate a fool who will attack me for something I didn’t even know I stood for.  I guarantee you, I am not your typical liberal, even if I do stand for many of their platforms…lets compare positions…then maybe you can back-up your slander.

Response:

Question:

I don’t know how other Americans are going to act, but come the November elections, I’m going to punish any politician (of any party) that has been taking money from DoD and the Intelligence Community (IC) on the grounds of the Cold War "Peace Dividend."

throwing money at a problem rarely solves it. you have to know HOW to spend it.

Response:

Sounds like the same problem as here. Favoured suppliers with gov’t connections always get the contracts and then bill outrageous amounts for items available off the shelf for a fraction of the cost. One item I always remembered was a refit for our last carrier..HMCS Bonaventure. I forget the exact cost of a particular captain’s chair but it was out of sight. About eleven months after all the money was spent on the refit, the gov’t scrapped the ship. Folklore says the Bonaventure was traded in the middle of the ocean for an Indian sister ship and the worse condition one was sent along to the Taiwan wrecking yards. So..I guess the real question is…are you getting value for your defense dollars or just making some defense contractors filthy rich?  One more recent example…I heard the Canadian military was offered a ‘too good to be true’ deal for a supply of hummers to replace our old jeeps 10 or 15 years ago.  Seems our gov’t had a company in Quebec who wanted to build the replacement. Well we got the mickey mouse replacement which cost more than the Hummers and aren’t near as reliable or as versatile. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Army has gone from 18 Divisions to 9.  Many of those are now hollow. The Air Force and Navy have undergone similar reductions and have mothballed ships and have grounded aircraft due to lack of fuel, spare parts, and pilots.  The IC budget has also fallen Now we have this tragedy–you get what you pay for. Perhaps we’re not getting what we pay for.  Here are some statistics from the Center for Defense Information: – At $343 billion, the U.S. military budget request for FY’02 is more than six times larger than that of Russia, the second largest spender. – It is more than twenty-three times as large as the combined spending of the seven countries traditionally identified by the Pentagon as our most likely adversaries (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria). – It is more than the combined spending of the next 15 nations. – The United States and its close allies spend more than the rest of the world combined, accounting for roughly two-thirds of all military spending. Together they spend over thirty eight times more than the seven rogue states. – The seven potential "enemies," Russia and China together spend $116 billion, roughly one-thrid (34%) the U.S. military budget. – Global military spending has declined from $1.2 trillion in 1985 to $809 billion in 1999. During that time the U.S. share of total military spending rose from 31% to 36% in Fiscal Year 1999. Don’t get me wrong.  I want a strong military.  But I think your assessment is wrong.   The peace dividend was well justified.  Not much point in spending big bucks for an armored assuault capability for western Europe when the likelihood of that scenario dwindled dramatically. We have $11 billion dollars committed to the new Virginia class attack submarine, and a project program cost of $65 billion.  Is that rational?  Who’s navy are we worried about that the current Los Angeles class can’t handle? Sure, it’s nice to have them, but that has to be balanced against other needs. $65 billion dollars buys a lot of anti-terrorist training, technology, and intelligence capability.  As we saw Tuesday, our spending priorities need to be reassessed.  The money is already substantial. — Rich Stern

Response:

Last time I checked, about 60% of the DoD budget was in wages and other HR costs (medical, dental, housing, retirement, etc.).  If we paid our force $2.00 a day and didn’t honor the retirment costs like the Russians, then our bugdet would be more in line with the rest of the Third World. Even with these costs, we still have a significant percentage of our junior and midgrade enlisted are eligible for food stamps and other social support. I don’t think many of the Third World countries care if their military members have a decent lifestyle. Most of the cost of weapons systems goes into the wages and benefits of millions of people working for all kinds of contractors across the country. Just about every manufacturer of all kinds of products ends up contributing in some way to those systems.  The big defense contractors who "prime" these systems, hire thousands of subcontractors to produce and deliver components. Those people have to get paid sufficiently to pay their mortgage, college costs, and fund their 401K. Where do you think the steel, titanium, and other components come from? They don’t just show up at the contractor’s integration facility in a package from Santa Clause.  Someone had to mine, refine, and machine the raw materials.  Someone had to get paid to do that. New technology is also expensive.  Look at the smart weapon systems that can fly thousands of miles and go through a 3′ x 3′ plate glass window.  This is in contrast to the "carpet bombing" that was necessary to do the same job 25 years ago .Traditional fighter aircraft can be seen by high-tech radar and shot down.  Therefor we are spending a lot of R&D to make them harder to find and target.  Same for Navy ships. What is your proposal?  Cut the wages, and honor retirement, medical, and dental at 25% of the promised value to make us equal to Russia and the rest of the Third World?  Pay the contractors at 50 cents on the contracted dollar? Go back to low-tech carpet bombing that kills non-combatants as well as the military target? Go back to old-technology fighter aircraft and ships that can be easily targeted? Maybe a hiring freeze for the CIA, NSA, DIA, and the rest of the IC because we aren’t getting what we paid for? National defense has never been, nor will it ever be cheap.  History is full of examples of countries who tried to do it on the cheap who were overrun or defeated on the battlefield at the cost of thousands of lives and their way of life.  History is full of examples of countries who tried to rely on old technology and old concepts to defend their country.  Just look at the French and the Maginot Line before WW II. It takes a lot of resources to keep your defense technology ahead of any/all potential adversaries and keep your forces trained sufficiently to be able to do their job quickly with minimal loss of life and collateral damage.  It takes a lot of resources to keep your intelligence collection and analysis efforts sufficiently manned, equipped, and trained to give you the early warning necessary to avoid things like happened on Tues. Our generally self-centered society has had a wake-up call.  Our focus on individual accumulation of material possessions is going to have to start taking a back seat to issues that involve the security and survival of our way of life.  We have to stop thinking about how much each individual or special group can get from the Gov’t and start thinking about how to contribute to an overall defense of our way of life and our free society. Skopje Remove the dot devnull to e-mail me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Army has gone from 18 Divisions to 9.  Many of those are now hollow. The Air Force and Navy have undergone similar reductions and have mothballed ships and have grounded aircraft due to lack of fuel, spare parts, and pilots.  The IC budget has also fallen Now we have this tragedy–you get what you pay for. Perhaps we’re not getting what we pay for.  Here are some statistics from the Center for Defense Information: – At $343 billion, the U.S. military budget request for FY’02 is more than six times larger than that of Russia, the second largest spender. – It is more than twenty-three times as large as the combined spending of the seven countries traditionally identified by the Pentagon as our most likely adversaries (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria). – It is more than the combined spending of the next 15 nations. – The United States and its close allies spend more than the rest of the world combined, accounting for roughly two-thirds of all military spending. Together they spend over thirty eight times more than the seven rogue states. – The seven potential "enemies," Russia and China together spend $116 billion, roughly one-thrid (34%) the U.S. military budget. – Global military spending has declined from $1.2 trillion in 1985 to $809 billion in 1999. During that time the U.S. share of total military spending rose from 31% to 36% in Fiscal Year 1999. Don’t get me wrong.  I want a strong military.  But I think your assessment is wrong.   The peace dividend was well justified.  Not much point in spending big bucks for an armored assuault capability for western Europe when the likelihood of that scenario dwindled dramatically. We have $11 billion dollars committed to the new Virginia class attack submarine, and a project program cost of $65 billion.  Is that rational? Who’s navy are we worried about that the current Los Angeles class can’t handle? Sure, it’s nice to have them, but that has to be balanced against other needs. $65 billion dollars buys a lot of anti-terrorist training, technology, and intelligence capability.  As we saw Tuesday, our spending priorities need to be reassessed.  The money is already substantial. — Rich Stern

Response:

The Army has gone from 18 Divisions to 9.  Many of those are now hollow. The Air Force and Navy have undergone similar reductions and have mothballed ships and have grounded aircraft due to lack of fuel, spare parts, and pilots.  The IC budget has also fallen Now we have this tragedy–you get what you pay for.

Perhaps we’re not getting what we pay for.  Here are some statistics from the Center for Defense Information: – At $343 billion, the U.S. military budget request for FY’02 is more than six times larger than that of Russia, the second largest spender. – It is more than twenty-three times as large as the combined spending of the seven countries traditionally identified by the Pentagon as our most likely adversaries (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria). – It is more than the combined spending of the next 15 nations. – The United States and its close allies spend more than the rest of the world combined, accounting for roughly two-thirds of all military spending. Together they spend over thirty eight times more than the seven rogue states. – The seven potential "enemies," Russia and China together spend $116 billion, roughly one-thrid (34%) the U.S. military budget. – Global military spending has declined from $1.2 trillion in 1985 to $809 billion in 1999. During that time the U.S. share of total military spending rose from 31% to 36% in Fiscal Year 1999. Don’t get me wrong.  I want a strong military.  But I think your assessment is wrong.   The peace dividend was well justified.  Not much point in spending big bucks for an armored assuault capability for western Europe when the likelihood of that scenario dwindled dramatically. We have $11 billion dollars committed to the new Virginia class attack submarine, and a project program cost of $65 billion.  Is that rational?  Who’s navy are we worried about that the current Los Angeles class can’t handle? Sure, it’s nice to have them, but that has to be balanced against other needs. $65 billion dollars buys a lot of anti-terrorist training, technology, and intelligence capability.  As we saw Tuesday, our spending priorities need to be reassessed.  The money is already substantial. — Rich Stern

Response:

I don’t know how other Americans are going to act, but come the November elections, I’m going to punish any politician (of any party) that has been taking money from DoD and the Intelligence Community (IC) on the grounds of the Cold War "Peace Dividend." I spent 24 years in the Army and was there there under Carter when we didn’t have the money to dispatch vehicles because of lack of fuel and spare parts. I watched the build-up, and participated in the Gulf War.  And now for the last 8-9 years, I’ve watched the decline of the DoD and IC budgets, decline in the numbers of members and employees, and decline in intelligence collection, analysis, and dissemination capabilities. These short-sighted politicans diverted National Defense resources to pet programs back home.  Some of those programs could only be described as vote-buying distributions. As far as I’m concerned, these politicans are just as responsible for the spilling of American blood on Tuesday, as the actual perpetrators.They made their decisions.  Their votes and speeches in Congress are a matter of record.  I’ve already made my decisions for next November, and probably many Novembers to come. I hope there is a groundswell and come November, we throw the bastards out. Skopje Remove the dot devnull to e-mail me.

Response:

I don’t know how other Americans are going to act, but come the November elections, I’m going to punish any politician (of any party) that has been taking money from DoD and the Intelligence Community (IC) on the grounds of the Cold War "Peace Dividend."

Sheesh, gotta love it when someone claims they just can’t make ends meet on $320 billion a year. How about this: – Idle one carrier group – Mothball one armored division – Drop one hi tech weapons program (your pick) – Offer early retirement to reduce the excess forces from the above changes Take the resulting billions in savings, and refunnel it to: – Pay raises for the remaining troops – Revamped civilian/military joint intellgence capability – More fast response and high alert capability for some of our light infrantry and air defense troops. — Rich Stern

Response:

Most of what you propose has already happened. The Army has gone from 18 Divisions to 9.  Many of those are now hollow. The Air Force and Navy have undergone similar reductions and have mothballed ships and have grounded aircraft due to lack of fuel, spare parts, and pilots.  The IC budget has also fallen. Now we have this tragedy–you get what you pay for. Skopje Remove the dot devnull to e-mail me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know how other Americans are going to act, but come the November elections, I’m going to punish any politician (of any party) that has been taking money from DoD and the Intelligence Community (IC) on the grounds of the Cold War "Peace Dividend." Sheesh, gotta love it when someone claims they just can’t make ends meet on $320 billion a year. How about this: – Idle one carrier group – Mothball one armored division – Drop one hi tech weapons program (your pick) – Offer early retirement to reduce the excess forces from the above changes Take the resulting billions in savings, and refunnel it to: – Pay raises for the remaining troops – Revamped civilian/military joint intellgence capability – More fast response and high alert capability for some of our light infrantry and air defense troops. — Rich Stern

Response:

Question:

Do they hire bachelors in accounting majors or do you have to have a master’s in accounting/tax, and be eligible to sit for the CPA?  How much do they pay?  $35K-$45K????  Are they sweatshops?  40-50 hours a week possible? Does the work suck?  Well, of course it does, it’s accounting!!!!!  But there is always a degree of suckiness.  Some accounting work *gasp* isn’t so bad. — Oscar

Response:

You would be better to keep searching for a different career.  One that suits you.  Don’t try to fit yourself into accounting.  Accounting has to fit you first. thanks Pam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do they hire bachelors in accounting majors or do you have to have a master’s in accounting/tax, and be eligible to sit for the CPA?  How much do they pay?  $35K-$45K????  Are they sweatshops?  40-50 hours a week possible? Does the work suck?  Well, of course it does, it’s accounting!!!!!  But there is always a degree of suckiness.  Some accounting work *gasp* isn’t so bad. — Oscar

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Today, Big5 is much more than accounting, try programming for a change and you may be more in demand than a plain vanilla CPA. Once you start looking beyond the numbers the profession will be more appealing to you. Think investment banking and management consulting, but those are very competitive areas, and you will be competing against thousands of others to get in (CPAs and MBAs). Big 5 won’t guarantee it but it will give a chance, and you will pay your dues learning the business. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

Glad to hear you are on track with a better mortage company. The behavior of the previous broker was outrageous. For folks looking to purchase a first home there are a certain group of "predators" and it seems you encountered one. The 30% ratio of sales price to total inital costs was way high. It’s jerks like that first broker who end up driving off first time buyers. Thank goodness the realtor hooked you up with somebody who seems to be alot more responsive. I strongly recommend that you visit a library and scan through some of the "Buying Your First Home" type books that they have. A little bit of reading will help you feel like you are alot more "empowered" and make it harder for anyone to take advantage of you. Good Luck and congratulations! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Walt, We found a new broker this morning. He came recommended so we thought that we check him out. He explained everything that we didn’t understand and after going over all the paperwork, he quoted $3800 as total move-in amount instead of the $8200 that the first broker wanted. That’s a big difference, but he works for a flat fee instead of commission so I guess that makes a big difference. He went over all the fees involved, such as apprasials, inspections, ect… The taxes for this house last tax year were only $459. Highlands is a small unincorporated town. Houses sell very fast and rarely do you find one for sale. There’s plenty of land for sell but we don’t want to live in a trailer. Thanks for writing, Kim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would say that the original $6,500 was just a guess since no particular house was involved. The $8,200 is an actual "good faith" estimate based on a specific house. This means that many things can be based on true costs in the area the house is located. Town taxes, school taxes, mortgage taxes, transfer fees, required inspections (possibly due to the age of the house) are just some of the things which come to mind. Now that you have a house picked out, you are entitled to a written estimate of closing costs which is broken down. Get a copy of it, and read through it. If you find something ‘odd’ ask about it, or post here and I am sure that someone would offer an explanation. Hi, I hope someone could help me. Here’s the situation. We were preapproved through a mortgage broker for a $73,000 mortgage and told that we needed a total of $6500 to get into a house in this price range. … Well the broker is now fishtailing on us. We can’t understand this. We were preapproved for $73,000 with $6500 move-in cost. Now she is saying to get into this $26,500 house we have to come up with $8200. We can’t understand this. Is there a reason for something like this? She didn’t even look at the house we wanted. When I asked her to explain, she said that the closing costs are just more and that’s just the way it is. She finally just hung up on me.

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi, I hope someone could help me. Here’s the situation. We were preapproved through a mortgage broker for a $73,000 mortgage and told that we needed a total of $6500 to get into a house in this price range. We looked at a lot of houses trying to find something that we wanted but there were always foundation problems with everything that we liked. In the process of driving through different neighborhoods, we found a cute little house that would be just perfect for our needs. It’s an older house with a new roof and new paint. We called the real estate agent to see how much this house costs. It turns out that the owner only wants $26,500 for the house. The agent showed us the house and we decided that this is the house that we want. This would be our primary residence and not a rental situation. We are first time buyers. We put up the earnest money so that the house wouldn’t get sold while we contacted our mortgage broker. Well the broker is now fishtailing on us. We can’t understand this. We were preapproved for $73,000 with $6500 move-in cost. Now she is saying to get into this $26,500 house we have to come up with $8200. We can’t understand this. Is there a reason for something like this? She didn’t even look at the house we wanted. When I asked her to explain, she said that the closing costs are just more and that’s just the way it is. She finally just hung up on me. I called the real estate agent and she suggested that I find a different mortgage broker. We have 43 days left on the earnsest contract to find financing. Do closing costs really go up so much when you buy a lower price house? Do mortgage brokers make some kind of commission? Maybe that’s why she raised the costs of closing? We live in Texas. Do anyone know of a cheaper broker? Thanks, Kim

Response:

I would say that the original $6,500 was just a guess since no particular house was involved. The $8,200 is an actual "good faith" estimate based on a specific house.  This means that many things can be based on true costs in the area the house is located.  Town taxes, school taxes, mortgage taxes, transfer fees, required inspections (possibly due to the age of the house) are just some of the things which come to mind. Now that you have a house picked out, you are entitled to a written estimate of closing costs which is broken down. Get a copy of it, and read through it.  If you find something ‘odd’ ask about it, or post here and I am sure that someone would offer an explanation. Hi, I hope someone could help me. Here’s the situation. We were preapproved through a mortgage broker for a $73,000 mortgage and told that we needed a total of $6500 to get into a house in this price range.

… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well the broker is now fishtailing on us. We can’t understand this. We were preapproved for $73,000 with $6500 move-in cost. Now she is saying to get into this $26,500 house we have to come up with $8200. We can’t understand this. Is there a reason for something like this? She didn’t even look at the house we wanted. When I asked her to explain, she said that the closing costs are just more and that’s just the way it is. She finally just hung up on me.

Response:

We were preapproved through a mortgage broker for a $73,000 mortgage and told that we needed a total of $6500 to get into a house in this price . . . much this house costs. It turns out that the owner only wants $26,500 for the house. The agent showed us the house and we decided that this is the . . . Well the broker is now fishtailing on us. We can’t understand this. We were preapproved for $73,000 with $6500 move-in cost. Now she is saying to get into this $26,500 house we have to come up with $8200. We can’t understand this. Is there a reason for something like this? She didn’t even look at the house we wanted. When I asked her to explain, she said that the closing costs are just more and that’s just the way it is. She finally just hung up

You obviously need information keyed to Texas law and customs. 1.  In this jurisdiction (Ontario Canada) mortgage brokers are paid a commission by the lender and the only fee for the borrower is one trip for the broker to inspect the house (which must be made by someone on the lender’s side, and for which someone must pay.) 1b.  If one professional (broker or other) cannot or will not explain the financial conditions he says are essential, you can drop him and use another. 1c.  Since the broker’s commission probably depends on the size of the mortgage, brokers have an incentive to keep mortgages high. 2.  Down payments are not uniform everywhere.   Rural properties may indeed require higher down payments than those in town. 3.  If you can locate a reliable real estate lawyer, many first-time buyers find this well worth the money (range $300-$1,000.)  For example you want to be sure there are no liens on the property you want to buy.  Not least, the lawyer you pay is obliged to tell you the truth and to find out all the truth.  This is not necessarily so for the real estate agent. (E.g. when we bought, our lawyer found a forgotten but undischarged mortgage on the land and also proposed the most economic solution for all parties, which left everyone happy. Six months later I discovered an error in the accounting, so that the vendor owed me about $650.  Because he was happy with the legal settlement he paid up promptly with no argument.) 4.  A real estate lawyer can also tell you what "closing costs" are in your jurisdiction. Here, these add no special fees:  but you need to "adjust" payments at the last stage so that both buyer and seller pay their fair shares of property taxes for the year, etc. — |        Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada        |

Response:

Hi Walt,             We found a new broker this morning. He came recommended so we thought that we check him out. He explained everything that we didn’t understand and after going over all the paperwork, he quoted $3800 as total move-in amount instead of the $8200 that the first broker wanted. That’s a big difference, but he works for a flat fee instead of commission so I guess that makes a big difference. He went over all the fees involved, such as apprasials, inspections, ect… The taxes for this house last tax year were only $459. Highlands is a small unincorporated town. Houses sell very fast and rarely do you find one for sale. There’s plenty of land for sell but we don’t want to live in a trailer. Thanks for writing, Kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would say that the original $6,500 was just a guess since no particular house was involved. The $8,200 is an actual "good faith" estimate based on a specific house.  This means that many things can be based on true costs in the area the house is located.  Town taxes, school taxes, mortgage taxes, transfer fees, required inspections (possibly due to the age of the house) are just some of the things which come to mind. Now that you have a house picked out, you are entitled to a written estimate of closing costs which is broken down. Get a copy of it, and read through it.  If you find something ‘odd’ ask about it, or post here and I am sure that someone would offer an explanation. Hi, I hope someone could help me. Here’s the situation. We were preapproved through a mortgage broker for a $73,000 mortgage and told that we needed a total of $6500 to get into a house in this price range. … Well the broker is now fishtailing on us. We can’t understand this. We were preapproved for $73,000 with $6500 move-in cost. Now she is saying to get into this $26,500 house we have to come up with $8200. We can’t understand this. Is there a reason for something like this? She didn’t even look at the house we wanted. When I asked her to explain, she said that the closing costs are just more and that’s just the way it is. She finally just hung up on me.

Response:

Question:

We’ve been using a very simple accounting program called In House Accounting for the MAC since the early 80’s.   It’s a  good after the fact software to plug in data from simple clients.  It is no longer Y2k compliant ! Anybody knows where they are right now?  We’ve tried doing searches but can’t seem top find them. Thanks

Response:

Most developers of business software for the Mac platform have disappeared due to lack of market for their products. Please do not prolong your agony.  If you are running a business, you should be on a PC platform where you have a myriad of software tools available to help you run your business more efficiently. Peter McGowan

Response:

Question:

ps – did you know that you – as our Chief-Looker-Upper at the moment, – gotta call from that heart-stopping doc-fella, – on the 18th…… (if i never return here for anything else AT ALL, it will be to read that reply and sequence….) luv, k.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . actually, never mind about pointing anything out to me that you seem to think that i posted, i know what i have said here….once again, yarrow, you have proven that it is pointless to try to "discuss" anything with you reasonably. so once again, i give up. i am not going to go back and forth with you in these pointless rebuttals. (but i tried, karuna!! i really did……) to reiterate: i give up…no more trying to reason with yarrow about anything…..it is a brick wall. a thick brick wall. a thick brick wall with reinforced steel doors slammed shut. ka – you’re going just Fine!!!!! and that is all i dropped in to see. i’m not supposed to be here – s n e a k i n g in at 4:00 am – just *know* i’m gonna be caught, somehow… ( I am working for a sometimes hard and demanding taskmaster, but when you value the learning this much you let some things go by…) like i said, – you’re going Fine!!! k.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -. actually, never mind about pointing anything out to me that you seem to think that i posted, i know what i have said here….once again, yarrow, you have proven that it is pointless to try to "discuss" anything with you reasonably. so once again, i give up. i am not going to go back and forth with you in these pointless rebuttals. (but i tried, karuna!! i really did……) to reiterate: i give up…no more trying to reason with yarrow about anything…..it is a brick wall. a thick brick wall. a thick brick wall with reinforced steel doors slammed shut.

ka – you’re going just Fine!!!!! and that is all i dropped in to see. i’m not supposed to be here – s n e a k i n g in at 4:00 am – just *know* i’m gonna be caught, somehow… ( I am working for a sometimes hard and demanding taskmaster, but when you value the learning this much you let some things go by…) like i said, – you’re going Fine!!! k.

Response:

i’m not supposed to be here – s n e a k i n g in at 4:00 am – just *know* i’m gonna be caught, somehow… ( I am working for a sometimes hard and demanding taskmaster, but when you value the learning this much you let some things go by…) like i said, – you’re going Fine!!! k.

thanks, and i hope your lessons are coming along nicely! there is an adobe photoshop ng (or two or twelve) also….. plus, your task master *can* check up on where you have been online if you dont course, i havent pointed this out to my hubby yet….if he ever gets inclined to go porno shopping or something i will catch him red handed!!! (no pun intended) plus i keep an eye on the ole ebay comings and goings….gotta keep my eye on the finances……. come visit when you can! we miss you!!!

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i have never blamed doctors for anything, yarrow….you are floundering and grasping at straws, m’dear. to reiterate: i give up…no more trying to reason with yarrow about anything…..it is a brick wall. a thick brick wall. a thick brick wall with reinforced steel doors slammed shut.

When you get to the place where you care nothing about other peoples’ Jan

Response:

how on earth did you get in the room with all of these patients and doctors, yarrow?? that is very odd indeed!! ###  It is?  How long have you worked in the health field now? It is INDEED a very common occurrence these days when Dr. and patients are seldom alone in a room.

whether i have or have not worked in the health field has no bearing on knowing that you were exaggerating (once again) to try to prove some feeble point that had nothing to do with the topic under discussion. blowing smoke or some such i suppose….. yarrow, you said that *you* had "seen" so many doctors shake their heads when blah blah blah from their patients….i was simply pointing out that this is unlikely, as *you* would not have been in the room during exams and consultations. you were exaggerating…and poorly. can the Dr’s do, force these foods down their throats?  Rip the smokes and booze from their hands? sorry, i have no idea what you are talking about. #### Of course you don’t.  You never worked in a large Hospital and got to see what goes on.  You still have the delusions that everyone on earth is willing to change their living and eating habits to stay healthy.

please point out to me (cut n paste) where i said that i think that "everyone on earth is willing to change their living/eating habits to stay healthy". what i did was ask you if you were joking when you said no one is interested in preventing illness. actually, never mind about pointing anything out to me that you seem to think that i posted, i know what i have said here….once again, yarrow, you have proven that it is pointless to try to "discuss" anything with you reasonably. so once again, i give up. i am not going to go back and forth with you in these pointless rebuttals. (but i tried, karuna!! i really did……) …when did we start this discussion?? what has this got to do with milk thistle having been studied and approved?? but, irrelevence to the topic aside,  if you are trying to say that people have to take responsiblity for their own health, i emphatically agree…. ### That’s exactly what I’m saying!  Don’t blame Dr’s because of what people do to themselves with poor living/eating habits.

 i have never blamed doctors for anything, yarrow….you are floundering and grasping at straws, m’dear. to reiterate: i give up…no more trying to reason with yarrow about anything…..it is a brick wall. a thick brick wall. a thick brick wall with reinforced steel doors slammed shut.

Response:

how on earth did you get in the room with all of these patients and doctors, yarrow?? that is very odd indeed!!

###  It is?  How long have you worked in the health field now?   It is INDEED a very common occurrence these days when Dr. and patients are seldom alone in a room. can the Dr’s do, force these foods down their throats?  Rip the smokes and booze from their hands? sorry, i have no idea what you are talking about.

#### Of course you don’t.  You never worked in a large Hospital and got to see what goes on.  You still have the delusions that everyone on earth is willing to change their living and eating habits to stay healthy. …when did we start this discussion?? what has this got to do with milk thistle having been studied and approved?? but, irrelevence to the topic aside,  if you are trying to say that people have to take responsiblity for their own health, i emphatically agree….

### That’s exactly what I’m saying!  Don’t blame Dr’s because of what people do to themselves with poor living/eating habits. — Carol…… You know it’s going to be a bad day when: "Your horn is stuck on the Highway and you’re behind 32 Hell’s Angel’s." Before you buy health products on the net, see… http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html

Response:

But I do enjoy how you like to go on the attack rather than dealing with the information that was presented.

### Who attacked?  I asked if the proof of these allegations was going to be brought before the public. And you’re taking the proof to the AMA or the FBI? I’d be happy to show the evidence to any lawful authority who inquires.

###  Just TAKE it to them.  If I knew a person down the road killed someone I’d go to the police and not wait for them to come to me and ask.   The AMA already has their copies of the proof, which provides them with a good reason not to sue me for declaring that the article is a fraud.

###  And they’ve not acted on it?  Or have they and they’ve found it all baseless accusations? News perhaps? There are several copies of the photos in existence, including the ones I have. (One copy of a series of photos can be seen on the dust jackets of "The Man Who Cures Cancer" [front cover] and "The Doctor Who Cures Cancer". [back inside flap]) I’d be happy to present the same evidence to any reputable journalist who inquires as well.

### Why wait for them to inquire?  GO TO THEM!   — Carol…… You know it’s going to be a bad day when: "Your horn is stuck on the Highway and you’re behind 32 Hell’s Angel’s." Before you buy health products on the net, see… http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html

Response:

The answer is long, but I will give you one prime example. The authors of the JAMA study wrote that there was no evidence, either microscopically or *MACROscopically*, of any benefit to any patient from the treatments. *** And next you’ll tell us they were "paid off" to lie?

You’re jumping to conclusions again. If you’d read my book you would know that although others have made specific allegations of such, to me those charges are merely hearsay. But I do enjoy how you like to go on the attack rather than dealing with the information that was presented. And you’re taking the proof to the AMA or the FBI?

I’d be happy to show the evidence to any lawful authority who inquires. The AMA already has their copies of the proof, which provides them with a good reason not to sue me for declaring that the article is a fraud.  Yet, there is in existence several sets of dated and signed photographs (signed and dated by a JAMA coauthor!)taken of external tumors on different patients which gradually and completely disappeared! *** And where are these photos?  I assume you are about to bring them out into the light of day through the NY Times or other trustworthy paper?  CNN News perhaps?

There are several copies of the photos in existence, including the ones I have. (One copy of a series of photos can be seen on the dust jackets of "The Man Who Cures Cancer" [front cover] and "The Doctor Who Cures Cancer". [back inside flap]) I’d be happy to present the same evidence to any reputable journalist who inquires as well. William Kelley Eidem, author "The Doctor Who Cures Cancer" and founder of the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation Let’s beat cancer. Gently. <http://www.gentler.org Support the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation. Only you can take the hurt out of cancer research. Read the doctor’s report "It’s Not Just For Sex!" by A.R. Salman, M.D. <http://www.bewellbooks.com. Each purchase supports the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation! Before you buy.

Response:

The answer is long, but I will give you one prime example. The authors of the JAMA study wrote that there was no evidence, either microscopically or *MACROscopically*, of any benefit to any patient from the treatments.

*** And next you’ll tell us they were "paid off" to lie?   And you’re taking the proof to the AMA or the FBI?  Yet, there is in existence several sets of dated and signed photographs (signed and dated by a JAMA coauthor!)taken of external tumors on different patients which gradually and completely disappeared!

*** And where are these photos?  I assume you are about to bring them out into the light of day through the NY Times or other trustworthy paper?  CNN News perhaps?   — Carol…… You know it’s going to be a bad day when: "You borrow from Visa to pay Mastercard." Before you buy health products on the net, see… http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html

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i have been here since about mid september. but i know how to use deja search…..got quite good at it recently. ### So then you found the posts complaining how no one researches herbs and other alt. meds.

noooo…that was my point. stating that drug companies dont appear to be interested in testing unpatentable products ###  That’s true as who would pay the outrageous costs of such studies? The alt. practitioners?  I doubt it as they’re out to MAKE a buck not SPEND their money on research.  is NOT the same as "complaining" that no one is doing any studies. ### Then you missed a lot of past posts….  plus the one’s whining how greedy the Drug Co’ are because they DON’T and aren’t doing the alt. research.

you are vastly over-generalizing here, yarrow….you tend to do that alot….that’s ok, i know i do it from time to time. if there were so many people doing this and so many posts about it, i wonder how it got by me?!  perhaps, when pro-alts are confronted with gross exaggerations by skeptics, they come back with ones of their own?? )  i dunno…. not if one researches and listens and pays attention and asks questions. and generally, when *i* discuss alternatives, i am in the ballpark of **prevention** of diseases and sickness, not cures. ###  People don’t want to HEAR about prevention of disease.

you must be joking!  They want to do as they’ve always done and pop some herb or use some zapper-crapper to cure whatever they come down with.  You can’t be unaware of this.  I’ve seen Dr’s shake their heads in frustration at patients who refuse to exercise or change their dietary habits.

how on earth did you get in the room with all of these patients and doctors, yarrow?? that is very odd indeed!!  So why blame the Dr’s?   How about placing the blame where it belongs like  on the heavy drinker and smoker, the couch potato, the person who overeats every day and eats grease laden meals no less, those who wont eat fresh fruit and vegetables?  What can the Dr’s do, force these foods down their throats?  Rip the smokes and booze from their hands?

sorry, i have no idea what you are talking about….when did we start this discussion?? what has this got to do with milk thistle having been studied and approved?? but, irrelevence to the topic aside,  if you are trying to say that people have to take responsiblity for their own health, i emphatically agree….  and i am a firm believer in the high efficiacy of using things like herbs and aromatherapy and nutrition for prevention of illness. ###  You’re entitled to your beliefs as long as you don’t HARM others with them.

well, thank you. i try very hard not to harm other people (or myself). not in my nature. *** And some of these countries are as loose as Mexico with their drug and medication tests and what they allow to be sold. i was thinking more along the lines of europe and asia. but if third world countries can afford to do scientific research on things like medicinal herbs that their peoples have been using with success all along anyway, that is great. ### If they had such great "success" with these herbs their death rates would not be so high.

those countries have lots of problems that herbs cant even touch. not to mention all of those godawful emerging viruses and whatnot. even science isnt prepared for those nasties yet…… hopefully, working together with alt-types, they will be soon.  And any missionary will tell you about African and So. American peoples who walk many miles to get to a clinic in the bush or Jungle because they know the meds work better than the potions given them by their Shaman and voodoo queens.  Some will carry their ill for a week to see a real Dr. and the rate of the cures keep these people coming to these clinics.

i never have said and am not now saying that modern medicine is not valuable. but i am saying that medicinal herbs have been and will continue to be used with success…..hopefully there will be some great merging of the two and we can all rest on our laurels. we are happy and healthy already without the clinical trials. (speaking for myself: using things like soy, echinacea,  milk thistle, quercetin, green tea, essential oils, non-toxic cleaning and personal care products to help PREVENT disease and illness.) #### Also keeping in mind that many don’t do as you’re doing and are still healthy and well.

that is all well and good, as long as they dont go out of their way to stop the rest of us from making and using our own choices. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – healthcare system: ===brevity snips here===             Managing Care, Managing Health             country ranked second worldwide in per-capita             expenditures, Canada. ### I don’t disagree… http://www.consciouschoice.com/features/payingforhealthcare.html contrary to what you and some other skeptics might think, yarrow, alot of us pro-alt types are pretty good at taking care of ourselves. and even have a bit of intelligence to boot. ### And what makes you think we don’t?

again, are you joking??  I have been talking here about the importance of exercise and diet for months.

and no one has diputed that with you, have they? what they do dispute with you is that you tout this to the exclusion of other methods. and both diet and exercise are very subjective to the individual who is using them, as is any medication or herb or other health issue. again, i am not sure why you are bringing this up here in light of the topic i started.  But some of the alt’s, like some skeptics do believe in doing as they wish and looking for that magic pill or herb whatever the case me be, AFTER they become ill.   Both sides should take care of themselves.  Has anyone ever claimed otherwise here?

obviously, everyone who posts here on a regular basis is "set in their ways" as far as their own health regime. the object of this ng would then appear to be to present your points of view in as palatable and rational a way as possible. this ng often gets abused/misused as a soap box for both sides i reckon. but it is very much a debunking forum, i would say. the almighty charter states that it is supposed to be a forum for discussing the pros and cons of alternative health methods.  this tends to get taken to extremes (by both sides) and alot of good information can be overlooked when this happens. did you read the milk thistle study, yarrow? have you gone to any of your (or others) sources lately to research any of your own firm beliefs (or disbeliefs as the case may be)?? i have, and will continue to do so. i look at skeptic sites as well as (non commercial) alternative ones. i read all kinds of articles and watch all kinds of educational programs.  what i am seeing is that there is now and will continue to be a merging of alt with conventional when it comes to health and the environment. are you ready for the ride?? hope so, cause you are on it as we type!!

Response:

i have been here since about mid september. but i know how to use deja search…..got quite good at it recently.

### So then you found the posts complaining how no one researches herbs and other alt. meds. stating that drug companies dont appear to be interested in testing unpatentable products

###  That’s true as who would pay the outrageous costs of such studies? The alt. practitioners?  I doubt it as they’re out to MAKE a buck not SPEND their money on research.  is NOT the same as "complaining" that no one is doing any studies.

### Then you missed a lot of past posts….  plus the one’s whining how greedy the Drug Co’ are because they DON’T and aren’t doing the alt. research.   not if one researches and listens and pays attention and asks questions. and generally, when *i* discuss alternatives, i am in the ballpark of **prevention** of diseases and sickness, not cures.

###  People don’t want to HEAR about prevention of disease.  They want to do as they’ve always done and pop some herb or use some zapper-crapper to cure whatever they come down with.  You can’t be unaware of this.  I’ve seen Dr’s shake their heads in frustration at patients who refuse to exercise or change their dietary habits.  So why blame the Dr’s?   How about placing the blame where it belongs like  on the heavy drinker and smoker, the couch potato, the person who overeats every day and eats grease laden meals no less, those who wont eat fresh fruit and vegetables?  What can the Dr’s do, force these foods down their throats?  Rip the smokes and booze from their hands?  and i am a firm believer in the high efficiacy of using things like herbs and aromatherapy and nutrition for prevention of illness.

###  You’re entitled to your beliefs as long as you don’t HARM others with them. *** And some of these countries are as loose as Mexico with their drug and medication tests and what they allow to be sold. i was thinking more along the lines of europe and asia. but if third world countries can afford to do scientific research on things like medicinal herbs that their peoples have been using with success all along anyway, that is great.

### If they had such great "success" with these herbs their death rates would not be so high.  And any missionary will tell you about African and So. American peoples who walk many miles to get to a clinic in the bush or Jungle because they know the meds work better than the potions given them by their Shaman and voodoo queens.  Some will carry their ill for a week to see a real Dr. and the rate of the cures keep these people coming to these clinics.   we are happy and healthy already without the clinical trials. (speaking for myself: using things like soy, echinacea,  milk thistle, quercetin, green tea, essential oils, non-toxic cleaning and personal care products to help PREVENT disease and illness.)

#### Also keeping in mind that many don’t do as you’re doing and are still healthy and well. healthcare system: ===brevity snips here===             Managing Care, Managing Health             country ranked second worldwide in per-capita             expenditures, Canada.

### I don’t disagree… http://www.consciouschoice.com/features/payingforhealthcare.html contrary to what you and some other skeptics might think, yarrow, alot of us pro-alt types are pretty good at taking care of ourselves. and even have a bit of intelligence to boot.

### And what makes you think we don’t?  I have been talking here about the importance of exercise and diet for months.  But some of the alt’s, like some skeptics do believe in doing as they wish and looking for that magic pill or herb whatever the case me be, AFTER they become ill.   Both sides should take care of themselves.  Has anyone ever claimed otherwise here?   — Carol…… You know it’s going to be a bad day when: "You borrow from Visa to pay Mastercard." Before you buy health products on the net, see… http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

i have been taking milk thistle seed extract for over a year now. i just found this interesting bit of info on pubmed :  (oh those poor little meeces, though!) Carcinogenesis 1999 Nov;20(11):2101-2108 Tissue distribution of silibinin, the major active constituent of silymarin, in mice and its association with enhancement of phase II enzymes: implications in cancer chemoprevention. Zhao J, Agarwal R Center for Cancer Causation and Prevention, AMC Cancer Research Center, Denver, CO 80214 and University of Colorado Cancer Center, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver, CO 80262, USA. [Record supplied by publisher] Polyphenolic antioxidants are being identified as cancer preventive agents. Recent studies in our laboratory have identified and defined the cancer preventive and anticarcinogenic potential of a polyphenolic flavonoid antioxidant, silymarin (isolated from milk thistle). More recent studies by us found that these effects of silymarin are due to the major active constituent, silibinin, present therein. Here, studies are done in mice to determine the distribution and conjugate formation of systemically administered silibinin in liver, lung, stomach, skin, prostate and pancreas. Additional studies were then performed to assess the effect of orally administered silibinin on phase II enzyme activity in liver, lung, stomach, skin and small bowel. For tissue distribution studies, SENCAR mice were starved for 24 h, orally fed with silibinin (50 mg/kg dose) and killed after 0.5, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8 h. The desired tissues were collected, homogenized and parts of the homogenates were extracted with butanol:methanol followed by HPLC analysis. The column eluates were detected by UV followed by electrochemical detection. The remaining homogenates were digested with sulfatase and beta-glucuronidase followed by analysis and quantification. Peak levels of free silibinin were observed at 0.5 h after administration in liver, lung, stomach and pancreas, accounting for 8.8 +/- 1.6, 4.3 +/- 0.8, 123 +/- 21 and 5.8 +/- 1.1 (mean +/- SD) mug silibinin/g tissue, respectively. In the case of skin and prostate, the peak levels of silibinin were 1.4 +/- 0.5 and 2.5 +/- 0.4, respectively, and were achieved 1 h after administration. With regard to sulfate and beta-glucuronidate conjugates of silibinin, other than lung and stomach showing peak levels at 0.5 h, all other tissues showed peak levels at 1 h after silibinin administration. The levels of both free and conjugated silibinin declined after 0.5 or 1 h in an exponential fashion with an elimination half-life (t((1/2))) of 57-127 min for free and 45-94 min for conjugated silibinin in different tissues. In the studies examining the effect of silibinin on phase II enzymes, oral feeding of silibinin at doses of 100 and 200 mg/kg/day showed a moderate to highly significant (P < 0.1-0.001, Student’s t-test) increase in both glutathione S-transferase and quinone reductase activities in liver, lung, stomach, skin and small bowel in a dose- and time-dependent manner. Taken together, the results of the present study clearly demonstrate the bioavailability of and phase II enzyme induction by systemically administered silibinin in different tissues, including skin, where silymarin has been shown to be a strong cancer chemopreventive agent, and suggest further studies to assess the cancer preventive and anticarcinogenic effects of silibinin in different cancer models. PMID: 10545412 Cancer Res 1999 Feb 1;59(3):622-32 A flavonoid antioxidant, silymarin, affords exceptionally high protection against tumor promotion in the SENCAR mouse skin tumorigenesis model. Lahiri-Chatterjee M, Katiyar SK, Mohan RR, Agarwal R Department of Dermatology, Skin Diseases Research Center, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio 44106, USA. In cancer chemoprevention studies, the identification of better antitumor-promoting agents is highly desired because they may have a wider applicability against the development of clinical cancers. Both epidemiological and animal studies have suggested that microchemicals present in the diet and several herbs and plants with diversified pharmacological properties are useful agents for the prevention of a wide variety of human cancers. Silymarin, a flavonoid isolated from milk thistle, is used clinically in Europe and Asia as an antihepatotoxic agent, largely due to its strong antioxidant activity. Because most antioxidants afford protection against tumor promotion, in this study, we assessed the protective effect of silymarin on tumor promotion in the SENCAR mouse skin tumorigenesis model. Application of silymarin prior to each 12-O-tetradecanoylphorbol 13-acetate (TPA) application resulted in a highly significant protection against tumor promotion in 7,12-dimethylbenz(a)anthracene-initiated mouse skin. The protective effect of silymarin was evident in terms of reduction in tumor incidence (25, 40, and 75% protection, P < 0.001, X2 test), tumor multiplicity (76, 84, and 97% protection, P < 0.001, Wilcoxon rank sum test), and tumor volume (76, 94, and 96% protection, P < 0.001, Student’s t test) at the doses of 3, 6, and 12 mg per application, respectively. To dissect out the stage specificity of silymarin against tumor promotion, we next assessed its effect against both stage I and stage II of tumor promotion. Application of silymarin prior to that of TPA in stage I or mezerein in stage II tumor promotion in dimethylbenz(a)anthracene-initiated SENCAR mouse skin resulted in an exceptionally high protective effect during stage I tumor promotion, showing 74% protection against tumor incidence (P < 0.001, X2 test), 92% protection against tumor multiplicity (P < 0.001, Wilcoxon rank sum test), and 96% protection against tumor volume (P < 0.001, Student’s t test). With regard to stage II tumor promotion, silymarin showed 26, 63, and 54% protection in tumor incidence, multiplicity, and volume, respectively. Similar effect of silymarin to that in anti-stage I studies, were also observed when applied during both stage I and stage II protocols. In other studies, silymarin significantly inhibited: (a) TPA-induced skin edema, epidermal hyperplasia, and proliferating cell nuclear antigen-positive cells; (b) DNA synthesis; and (c) epidermal lipid peroxidation, the early markers of TPA-caused changes that are associated with tumor promotion. Taken together, these results suggest that silymarin possesses exceptionally high protective effects against tumor promotion, primarily targeted against stage I tumors, and that the mechanism of such effects may involve inhibition of promoter-induced edema, hyperplasia, proliferation index, and oxidant state. PMID: 9973210, UI: 99137495 there are lots more if anyone is into this dry technical scientific

Response:

because *we arent the ones clamouring for scientific tests and clinical results*. we are happy and healthy already without the clinical trials. (speaking for myself: using things like soy, echinacea,  milk thistle, quercetin,  green tea, essential oils, non-toxic cleaning and personal care products to help PREVENT disease and illness.) i do enjoy popping into pubmed (sounds like a beer joint) and reading all of the corraboratory info there now, though. makes me want to do the cabbage patch dance. (nya nya nya…who’s da man!..kind of thing). here is something interesting regarding who pays for what in today’s US healthcare system:

Hey Lady, you are getting good at finding these interesting websites. Do you learn that from your sewing circle?? Very interesting indeed, keep us informed. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Obviously, alternative health care is no longer being            ignored by mainstream medicine. The National            Institutes of Health, through its new Office of            Alternative Medicine, currently spends about $14.5            million annually on clinical trials and research. Earlier            studies have established acupuncture’s            effectiveness, for example, in treating the nausea            associated with pregnancy and chemotherapy, and            the pain following dental surgery, and in providing            relief for asthma and back pain. Several new            acupuncture pilot studies are now in the works (e.g.,            osteoarthritis, alcoholism), as well as new trials to            study, for example, the efficacy of herbal treatments            for Parkinson’s Disease, dementia, and traumatic            brain injury. It is thus likely that insurers and health            care systems will continue to integrate new areas of            alternative treatment into what is covered and what            is provided, based on the results of these and other            future trials.            Managing Care, Managing Health            Of course, it is unrealistic to separate the issue of            alternative care and how it is paid for from the larger            issue of how money moves throughout the            health-care economy. The American system of            health care remains what the New England Journal of            Medicine once described as a "paradox of excess and            deprivation." The truth is, we spend more and deliver            less (about 40 percent more per capita) than the            country ranked second worldwide in per-capita            expenditures, Canada.            Under the present managed-care system, says            Arnold Relman, M.D., editor-in-chief emeritus of the            New England Journal of Medicine, insurers are pitted            against patients and health-care practitioners are            hampered from doing what they know to be best.            Left out of the current health-care equation is any            overarching health-care policy based on providing            the greatest good for the greatest number. Instead,            the system, Dr. Relman concludes, is driven by            "competing groups that take no responsibility for the            whole."            If the current system is in need of an overhaul, the            trend toward greater personal health awareness at            least signifies a more positive kind of culture change            in the works. Marc Micozzi, M.D., Ph.D., executive            director of the College of Physicians, sees in the            emergence of alternative medicine a glimpse of            where the entire health-care system is headed. In            his view, the health-care system of the future will            blend both today’s alternatives and today’s            conventions, forging a new model of care defined by            themes of self-care and self-cure. He is right.            This new model of care will be founded on the idea            that no doctor, pill, or surgery intrinsically has the            power to grant or dispense health. Health care will            be about nurturing self-healing. Tapping into this            self-healing potential will increasingly become the            guiding directive of a health-care system that            embraces the challenges of scientific medicine as it            discards labels of allopathic versus holistic medicine,            conventional versus alternative care.            But, of course, if health itself cannot be bought,            health care certainly can. And the crisis in health            care will remain for now as much an issue of how we            pay — or don’t pay — for care, as in the choices we            make and in the nature of the care we provide. http://www.consciouschoice.com/features/payingforhealthcare.html contrary to what you and some other skeptics might think, yarrow, alot of us pro-alt types are pretty good at taking care of ourselves. and even have a bit of intelligence to boot. cabbage patch dancing aside.

Response:

Brilliant Post,  Ka!!! k. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Marc Micozzi, M.D., Ph.D., executive             director of the College of Physicians, sees in the             emergence of alternative medicine a glimpse of             where the entire health-care system is headed. In             his view, the health-care system of the future will             blend both today’s alternatives and today’s             conventions, forging a new model of care defined by             themes of self-care and self-cure. He is right.             This new model of care will be founded on the idea             that no doctor, pill, or surgery intrinsically has the             power to grant or dispense health. Health care will             be about nurturing self-healing. Tapping into this             self-healing potential will increasingly become the             guiding directive of a health-care system that             embraces the challenges of scientific medicine as it             discards labels of allopathic versus holistic medicine,             conventional versus alternative care. http://www.consciouschoice.com/features/payingforhealthcare.html contrary to what you and some other skeptics might think, yarrow, alot of us pro-alt types are pretty good at taking care of ourselves. and even have a bit of intelligence to boot. cabbage patch dancing aside.

Response:

ka & g – you’re on a roll.  Well done. : ) Godspeed. Connie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – who’s *complaining* that no studies are being done, yarrow?? *** Many of you alt. types.  How long have you been here now?  I’ve seen many accusations that the Drug Co’s, researchers etc. refuse to test alt. methods and herbs because there isn’t the money in them as in chemicals. i have been here since about mid september. but i know how to use deja search…..got quite good at it recently. stating that drug companies dont appear to be interested in testing unpatentable products is NOT the same as "complaining" that no one is doing any studies. we just say that we dont necessarily need to wait for them to get done  (at least with herbals) ***  And take a chance of a dangerous or worthless product?  That’s a kin to playing Russian Roulette with your health/life. not if one researches and listens and pays attention and asks questions.  and generally, when *i* discuss alternatives, i am in the ballpark of **prevention** of diseases and sickness, not cures. and i am a firm believer in the high efficiacy of using things like herbs and aromatherapy and nutrition for prevention of illness.  and generally tests and trials have already been done in other countries anyway…. *** And some of these countries are as loose as Mexico with their drug and medication tests and what they allow to be sold. i was thinking more along the lines of europe and asia. but if third world countries can afford to do scientific research on things like medicinal herbs that their peoples have been using with success all along anyway, that is great. .the US is a bit slow in the scientific-study-of-herbals department for some reason….. ***  That’s true. yes, af, science *IS* a great thing. i am certainly not one to knock science. but then again, it is up to human beings to use the sciences. and human beings generally have their own ideas of what they want to study and when. ***  And who pays for these studies?  Why hasn’t the herb, magnet, zapper (crowd) and supplement Industries, worth billions, funding studies of their own? because *we arent the ones clamouring for scientific tests and clinical results*. we are happy and healthy already without the clinical trials. (speaking for myself: using things like soy, echinacea,  milk thistle, quercetin,  green tea, essential oils, non-toxic cleaning and personal care products to help PREVENT disease and illness.) i do enjoy popping into pubmed (sounds like a beer joint) and reading all of the corraboratory info there now, though. makes me want to do the cabbage patch dance. (nya nya nya…who’s da man!..kind of thing). here is something interesting regarding who pays for what in today’s US healthcare system: Obviously, alternative health care is no longer being             ignored by mainstream medicine. The National             Institutes of Health, through its new Office of             Alternative Medicine, currently spends about $14.5             million annually on clinical trials and research. Earlier             studies have established acupuncture’s             effectiveness, for example, in treating the nausea             associated with pregnancy and chemotherapy, and             the pain following dental surgery, and in providing             relief for asthma and back pain. Several new             acupuncture pilot studies are now in the works (e.g.,             osteoarthritis, alcoholism), as well as new trials to             study, for example, the efficacy of herbal treatments             for Parkinson’s Disease, dementia, and traumatic             brain injury. It is thus likely that insurers and health             care systems will continue to integrate new areas of             alternative treatment into what is covered and what             is provided, based on the results of these and other             future trials.             Managing Care, Managing Health             Of course, it is unrealistic to separate the issue of             alternative care and how it is paid for from the larger             issue of how money moves throughout the             health-care economy. The American system of             health care remains what the New England Journal of             Medicine once described as a "paradox of excess and             deprivation." The truth is, we spend more and deliver             less (about 40 percent more per capita) than the             country ranked second worldwide in per-capita             expenditures, Canada.             Under the present managed-care system, says             Arnold Relman, M.D., editor-in-chief emeritus of the             New England Journal of Medicine, insurers are pitted             against patients and health-care practitioners are             hampered from doing what they know to be best.             Left out of the current health-care equation is any             overarching health-care policy based on providing             the greatest good for the greatest number. Instead,             the system, Dr. Relman concludes, is driven by             "competing groups that take no responsibility for the             whole."             If the current system is in need of an overhaul, the             trend toward greater personal health awareness at             least signifies a more positive kind of culture change             in the works. Marc Micozzi, M.D., Ph.D., executive             director of the College of Physicians, sees in the             emergence of alternative medicine a glimpse of             where the entire health-care system is headed. In             his view, the health-care system of the future will             blend both today’s alternatives and today’s             conventions, forging a new model of care defined by             themes of self-care and self-cure. He is right.             This new model of care will be founded on the idea             that no doctor, pill, or surgery intrinsically has the             power to grant or dispense health. Health care will             be about nurturing self-healing. Tapping into this             self-healing potential will increasingly become the             guiding directive of a health-care system that             embraces the challenges of scientific medicine as it             discards labels of allopathic versus holistic medicine,             conventional versus alternative care.             But, of course, if health itself cannot be bought,             health care certainly can. And the crisis in health             care will remain for now as much an issue of how we             pay — or don’t pay — for care, as in the choices we             make and in the nature of the care we provide. http://www.consciouschoice.com/features/payingforhealthcare.html contrary to what you and some other skeptics might think, yarrow, alot of us pro-alt types are pretty good at taking care of ourselves. and even have a bit of intelligence to boot. cabbage patch dancing aside.

Response:

who’s *complaining* that no studies are being done, yarrow??

*** Many of you alt. types.  How long have you been here now?  I’ve seen many accusations that the Drug Co’s, researchers etc. refuse to test alt. methods and herbs because there isn’t the money in them as in chemicals. we just say that we dont necessarily need to wait for them to get done  (at least with

herbals) ***  And take a chance of a dangerous or worthless product?  That’s a kin to playing Russian Roulette with your health/life.  and generally tests and trials have already been done in other countries anyway….

*** And some of these countries are as loose as Mexico with their drug and medication tests and what they allow to be sold. .the US is a bit slow in the scientific-study-of-herbals department for some reason…..

***  That’s true. yes, af, science *IS* a great thing. i am certainly not one to knock science. but then again, it is up to human beings to use the sciences. and human beings generally have their own ideas of what they want to study and when.

***  And who pays for these studies?  Why hasn’t the herb, magnet, zapper (crowd) and supplement Industries, worth billions, funding studies of their own? — Carol…… You know it’s going to be a bad day when: "Nothing you own is actually paid for." Before you buy health products on the net, see… http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

who’s *complaining* that no studies are being done, yarrow?? *** Many of you alt. types.  How long have you been here now?  I’ve seen many accusations that the Drug Co’s, researchers etc. refuse to test alt. methods and herbs because there isn’t the money in them as in chemicals.

i have been here since about mid september. but i know how to use deja search…..got quite good at it recently. stating that drug companies dont appear to be interested in testing unpatentable products is NOT the same as "complaining" that no one is doing any studies. we just say that we dont necessarily need to wait for them to get done  (at least with herbals) ***  And take a chance of a dangerous or worthless product?  That’s a kin to playing Russian Roulette with your health/life.

not if one researches and listens and pays attention and asks questions.  and generally, when *i* discuss alternatives, i am in the ballpark of **prevention** of diseases and sickness, not cures. and i am a firm believer in the high efficiacy of using things like herbs and aromatherapy and nutrition for prevention of illness.  and generally tests and trials have already been done in other countries anyway…. *** And some of these countries are as loose as Mexico with their drug and medication tests and what they allow to be sold.

i was thinking more along the lines of europe and asia. but if third world countries can afford to do scientific research on things like medicinal herbs that their peoples have been using with success all along anyway, that is great. .the US is a bit slow in the scientific-study-of-herbals department for some reason….. ***  That’s true. yes, af, science *IS* a great thing. i am certainly not one to knock science. but then again, it is up to human beings to use the sciences. and human beings generally have their own ideas of what they want to study and when. ***  And who pays for these studies?  Why hasn’t the herb, magnet, zapper (crowd) and supplement Industries, worth billions, funding studies of their own?

because *we arent the ones clamouring for scientific tests and clinical results*. we are happy and healthy already without the clinical trials. (speaking for myself: using things like soy, echinacea,  milk thistle, quercetin,  green tea, essential oils, non-toxic cleaning and personal care products to help PREVENT disease and illness.) i do enjoy popping into pubmed (sounds like a beer joint) and reading all of the corraboratory info there now, though. makes me want to do the cabbage patch dance. (nya nya nya…who’s da man!..kind of thing). here is something interesting regarding who pays for what in today’s US healthcare system: Obviously, alternative health care is no longer being             ignored by mainstream medicine. The National             Institutes of Health, through its new Office of             Alternative Medicine, currently spends about $14.5             million annually on clinical trials and research. Earlier             studies have established acupuncture’s             effectiveness, for example, in treating the nausea             associated with pregnancy and chemotherapy, and             the pain following dental surgery, and in providing             relief for asthma and back pain. Several new             acupuncture pilot studies are now in the works (e.g.,             osteoarthritis, alcoholism), as well as new trials to             study, for example, the efficacy of herbal treatments             for Parkinson’s Disease, dementia, and traumatic             brain injury. It is thus likely that insurers and health             care systems will continue to integrate new areas of             alternative treatment into what is covered and what             is provided, based on the results of these and other             future trials.             Managing Care, Managing Health             Of course, it is unrealistic to separate the issue of             alternative care and how it is paid for from the larger             issue of how money moves throughout the             health-care economy. The American system of             health care remains what the New England Journal of             Medicine once described as a "paradox of excess and             deprivation." The truth is, we spend more and deliver             less (about 40 percent more per capita) than the             country ranked second worldwide in per-capita             expenditures, Canada.             Under the present managed-care system, says             Arnold Relman, M.D., editor-in-chief emeritus of the             New England Journal of Medicine, insurers are pitted             against patients and health-care practitioners are             hampered from doing what they know to be best.             Left out of the current health-care equation is any             overarching health-care policy based on providing             the greatest good for the greatest number. Instead,             the system, Dr. Relman concludes, is driven by             "competing groups that take no responsibility for the             whole."             If the current system is in need of an overhaul, the             trend toward greater personal health awareness at             least signifies a more positive kind of culture change             in the works. Marc Micozzi, M.D., Ph.D., executive             director of the College of Physicians, sees in the             emergence of alternative medicine a glimpse of             where the entire health-care system is headed. In             his view, the health-care system of the future will             blend both today’s alternatives and today’s             conventions, forging a new model of care defined by             themes of self-care and self-cure. He is right.             This new model of care will be founded on the idea             that no doctor, pill, or surgery intrinsically has the             power to grant or dispense health. Health care will             be about nurturing self-healing. Tapping into this             self-healing potential will increasingly become the             guiding directive of a health-care system that             embraces the challenges of scientific medicine as it             discards labels of allopathic versus holistic medicine,             conventional versus alternative care.             But, of course, if health itself cannot be bought,             health care certainly can. And the crisis in health             care will remain for now as much an issue of how we             pay — or don’t pay — for care, as in the choices we             make and in the nature of the care we provide. http://www.consciouschoice.com/features/payingforhealthcare.html contrary to what you and some other skeptics might think, yarrow, alot of us pro-alt types are pretty good at taking care of ourselves. and even have a bit of intelligence to boot. cabbage patch dancing aside.

Response:

i have been taking milk thistle seed extract for over a year now. i just found this interesting bit of info on pubmed :  (oh those poor little meeces, though!)

Thanks for the post. Very informative. For more info on therapeutic potential of milk thistle you may want to visit www.liversupport.com Ralph Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI, I posted many times that the quackwatch excerpt quoted by Fox is replete with errors of a fundamental nature. Secondly, the article published in JAMA is a fraudulent report. I have demonstrated why numerous times. I’ve also challenged anyone who wishes to, to pass my claim of fraud onto JAMA.  I’d be glad to defend it in court, since the truth is a complete defense. (They should have copies in their files of the irrefutable proof themselves, which would make them leery of attempting a lawsuit.) You may have "demonstrated why numerous times," but I don’t recall having read it myself.  Is there a handy reference?

My replies were in reponse to others. Which threads they are in (I couldn’t tell you. (You know how threads start out on one topic and end up somewhere else — like this one.) The answer is long, but I will give you one prime example. The authors of the JAMA study wrote that there was no evidence, either microscopically or *MACROscopically*, of any benefit to any patient from the treatments. Yet, there is in existence several sets of dated and signed photographs (signed and dated by a JAMA coauthor!)taken of external tumors on different patients which gradually and completely disappeared! The photographs are stunning proof that the report is an unadulterated falsehood designed to grossly misinform America’s doctors. Used toilet paper has more integrity that that article. The Office of Alternative Medicine has classifed the Revici Method as a "high priority" for further investigation. That ought to tell you what they think of quackwatch’s opinion and the bogus JAMA article. Maybe.  Or maybe not.  I’d prefer a direct statement from the OAM to your inferences.

While the OAM hasn’t declared the article to be false, one can be assured that if they placed any value in the damning report whatsover, they wouldn’t have declared the Revici Method to be a "high priority" for further investigation. William Kelley Eidem, author "The Doctor Who Cures Cancer" and founder of the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation Let’s beat cancer. Gently. Read "It’s Not Just For Sex!" by A.R. Salman, M.D. <http://www.bewellbooks.com. Each purchase helps to support the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation! Support the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation <http://www.gentler.org. Only you can take the hurt out of cancer research. Before you buy.

Response:

FYI, I posted many times that the quackwatch excerpt quoted by Fox is replete with errors of a fundamental nature. Secondly, the article published in JAMA is a fraudulent report. I have demonstrated why numerous times. I’ve also challenged anyone who wishes to, to pass my claim of fraud onto JAMA.  I’d be glad to defend it in court, since the truth is a complete defense. (They should have copies in their files of the irrefutable proof themselves, which would make them leery of attempting a lawsuit.)

You may have "demonstrated why numerous times," but I don’t recall having read it myself.  Is there a handy reference? The Office of Alternative Medicine has classifed the Revici Method as a "high priority" for further investigation. That ought to tell you what they think of quackwatch’s opinion and the bogus JAMA article.

Maybe.  Or maybe not.  I’d prefer a direct statement from the OAM to your inferences.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "What would Brian Boitano do?"  – Kyle, Stan, and Cartman

Response:

Or the exciting news out tonight about Glucosamine for arthritis.  in a double-blind clinical trial, it worked beautifully and better than a standard drug.   this is what science is good for.

But this is not new, I’ve got an extract from a book by Dr Jason Theodosakis, "The Arthritis Cure" which advocates glucosamine and chondroitin sulphates.   He lists double blind studies from abroad. Fortunately a lot of people didn’t wait for the official double blinded trials and went ahead and tried it sucessfully.  All anecdotal evidence of course.   This is exactly the reason I will not write off treatments until the studies have been done. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

But this is not new, I’ve got an extract from a book by Dr Jason Theodosakis, "The Arthritis Cure" which advocates glucosamine and chondroitin sulphates. He lists double blind studies from abroad.

Dear John, I can’t remember the source of his (Theo) studies, but I became aware of German studies 3 years ago.  So this has been around for quite some time.  C. Bond.

Response:

i have been taking milk thistle seed extract for over a year now. i just found this interesting bit of info on pubmed :  (oh those poor little meeces, though!) And you alt’s keep complaining that no studies are done on your herbs….. also see Fox’s post about the studies done on Rivichi (sp?) cancer cure method.

FYI, I posted many times that the quackwatch excerpt quoted by Fox is replete with errors of a fundamental nature. Secondly, the article published in JAMA is a fraudulent report. I have demonstrated why numerous times. I’ve also challenged anyone who wishes to, to pass my claim of fraud onto JAMA.  I’d be glad to defend it in court, since the truth is a complete defense. (They should have copies in their files of the irrefutable proof themselves, which would make them leery of attempting a lawsuit.) The Office of Alternative Medicine has classifed the Revici Method as a "high priority" for further investigation. That ought to tell you what they think of quackwatch’s opinion and the bogus JAMA article. William Kelley Eidem, author "The Doctor Who Cures Cancer" and founder of the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation Let’s beat cancer. Gently. Read "It’s Not Just For Sex!" by A.R. Salman, M.D. <http://www.bewellbooks.com. Each purchase helps to support the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation! Support the Gentler Cancer Research Foundation <http://www.gentler.org. Only you can take the hurt out of cancer research. Before you buy.

Response:

i have been taking milk thistle seed extract for over a year now. i just found this interesting bit of info on pubmed :  (oh those poor little meeces, though!)

And you alt’s keep complaining that no studies are done on your herbs….. also see Fox’s post about the studies done on Rivichi (sp?) cancer cure method. — Carol…… You know it’s going to be a bad day when: "You wake up and your braces are stuck together." Before you buy health products on the net, see… http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have been taking milk thistle seed extract for over a year now. i just found this interesting bit of info on pubmed :  (oh those poor little meeces, though!) And you alt’s keep complaining that no studies are done on your herbs….. also see Fox’s post about the studies done on Rivichi (sp?) cancer cure method. — Or the exciting news out tonight about Glucosamine for arthritis.  in a double-blind clinical trial, it worked beautifully and better than a standard drug.   this is what science is good for. Goodnight, catch you all from Texas. AF

who’s *complaining* that no studies are being done, yarrow?? we just say that we dont necessarily need to wait for them to get done  (at least with herbals) and generally tests and trials have already been done in other countries anyway…..the US is a bit slow in the scientific-study-of-herbals department for some reason….. yes, af, science *IS* a great thing. i am certainly not one to knock science. but then again, it is up to human beings to use the sciences. and human beings generally have their own ideas of what they want to study and when. have fun in TX……

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Question:

Hi It has been known since 1997 as the Institute of Cost & Executive Accountants. Please email me the details you require and specific questions. I have gone through the entire syllabus of the ICEA. Dr. N.J. Wilson Certified Public Accountant (UK) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Address of ACEA (Association of Cost Executive Accontants) ??? Dose any one know the address of the abone organisation or other contact method ? Many thanks ! Regards, William

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Address of ACEA (Association of Cost Executive Accontants) ??? Dose any one know the address of the abone organisation or other contact method ? Many thanks ! Regards, William

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Can someone please tell me how this association ranks in UK. I am quite interested in any information P J French

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The address for the ACEA is as follows: The Institute of Cost and Executive Accountants 139 Fonthill Road London N4 3HF Tel : +44 171 272 3925 Fax: +44 171 282 5723

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Question:

What do you do when your husband’s ex-wife has alienated his kids against him. They are 13 and 16. They have been divorced for 8 years and she acts like it is still day 1. He hasn’t seen his daughter in two years and now the same is happening with his son. His ex lies to the courts left and right and so do the kids. She rakes him for support, (she is a waitress) so doesn’t claim her true earnings. She abuses his Insurance etc. We have been married for three years and she has made our life hell. We have a family and we cannot afford to take care of ourselves as we should because of her constant abuse. Yet, she tells Friend of the Court she makes only $250.00 a week, yet she just bought a house and added an addition on to it. She buys the kids the Jordans, Hillfigger, Old Navy. Has tons of money for attorneys. Has had braces on both kids and now is taking the daughter in for a second set. Yet the Ortho told us 6 months ago she didn’t need a second set. I could go on and on….. Why do the courts always think that the woman is the victim? She is not right mentally, yet gets away with every damn thing that she does. The kids will lie for her even to the Judge. My husband is a great father, loving caring. But he is a parent not a buddy like she tries to be. She has no rules etc. They are failing school etc. and she does nothing. I have told her how lucky she was to have a father who wanted to be involved in his children’s lives. She doesn’t care she is just hell bent on making his life miserable, not matter what effect it has had on the kids. HELP!!!!!!!

Response:

Does your husband have a lawyer to fight what she is doing?  It would be very easy to find out just how much money she makes through the IRS. Daisy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What do you do when your husband’s ex-wife has alienated his kids against him. They are 13 and 16. They have been divorced for 8 years and she acts like it is still day 1. He hasn’t seen his daughter in two years and now the same is happening with his son. His ex lies to the courts left and right and so do the kids. She rakes him for support, (she is a waitress) so doesn’t claim her true earnings. She abuses his Insurance etc. We have been married for three years and she has made our life hell. We have a family and we cannot afford to take care of ourselves as we should because of her constant abuse. Yet, she tells Friend of the Court she makes only $250.00 a week, yet she just bought a house and added an addition on to it. She buys the kids the Jordans, Hillfigger, Old Navy. Has tons of money for attorneys. Has had braces on both kids and now is taking the daughter in for a second set. Yet the Ortho told us 6 months ago she didn’t need a second set. I could go on and on….. Why do the courts always think that the woman is the victim? She is not right mentally, yet gets away with every damn thing that she does. The kids will lie for her even to the Judge. My husband is a great father, loving caring. But he is a parent not a buddy like she tries to be. She has no rules etc. They are failing school etc. and she does nothing. I have told her how lucky she was to have a father who wanted to be involved in his children’s lives. She doesn’t care she is just hell bent on making his life miserable, not matter what effect it has had on the kids. HELP!!!!!!!

Response:

Not really – a person who earns tips only has to report a maximum per hour as salary so any tips above the max reportable are non-taxable and basically invisible. Diane Ball – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does your husband have a lawyer to fight what she is doing?  It would be very easy to find out just how much money she makes through the IRS. Daisy What do you do when your husband’s ex-wife has alienated his kids against him. They are 13 and 16. They have been divorced for 8 years and she acts like it is still day 1. He hasn’t seen his daughter in two years and now the same is happening with his son. His ex lies to the courts left and right and so do the kids. She rakes him for support, (she is a waitress) so doesn’t claim her true earnings. She abuses his Insurance etc. We have been married for three years and she has made our life hell. We have a family and we cannot afford to take care of ourselves as we should because of her constant abuse. Yet, she tells Friend of the Court she makes only $250.00 a week, yet she just bought a house and added an addition on to it. She buys the kids the Jordans, Hillfigger, Old Navy. Has tons of money for attorneys. Has had braces on both kids and now is taking the daughter in for a second set. Yet the Ortho told us 6 months ago she didn’t need a second set. I could go on and on….. Why do the courts always think that the woman is the victim? She is not right mentally, yet gets away with every damn thing that she does. The kids will lie for her even to the Judge. My husband is a great father, loving caring. But he is a parent not a buddy like she tries to be. She has no rules etc. They are failing school etc. and she does nothing. I have told her how lucky she was to have a father who wanted to be involved in his children’s lives. She doesn’t care she is just hell bent on making his life miserable, not matter what effect it has had on the kids. HELP!!!!!!!

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Start doing some digging on your own.  Did you get at letter from the orthodonist that confirms what he said. Go to the registrar for trust deeds and find out what the purchase price for the house was. Find out if it’s in her name.  If there was an addition done to the house, a permit should have been pulled.  If the addition is complete there should have been a change in the tax rolls.  There should also be a contractor noted.  You should be able to compel him to produce the records (after consulting with an attorney) his records in that matter or just perform discovery on her records (through your attorney).  If you can in fact show that she has been hiding income both the courts and IRS may take interest. The downside, she may tell the kids that their dad is out to get her and them. Yet another case that suggests it’s way past time for the recipients of CS to be required to provide an accounting of what they spend the CS on exactly and to provide detailed information on their income. Definitely consult an attorney.  By the way try to shame your local bar association into providing you with an attorney on a sliding scale that takes into account your true financial situation, as I, unfortunately I have found the only way one gets justice, eauity, fairness and common sense out of the courts is with money to pay the attorneys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you do when your husband’s ex-wife has alienated his kids against him. They are 13 and 16. They have been divorced for 8 years and she acts like it is still day 1. He hasn’t seen his daughter in two years and now the same is happening with his son. His ex lies to the courts left and right and so do the kids. She rakes him for support, (she is a waitress) so doesn’t claim her true earnings. She abuses his Insurance etc. We have been married for three years and she has made our life hell. We have a family and we cannot afford to take care of ourselves as we should because of her constant abuse. Yet, she tells Friend of the Court she makes only $250.00 a week, yet she just bought a house and added an addition on to it. She buys the kids the Jordans, Hillfigger, Old Navy. Has tons of money for attorneys. Has had braces on both kids and now is taking the daughter in for a second set. Yet the Ortho told us 6 months ago she didn’t need a second set. I could go on and on….. Why do the courts always think that the woman is the victim? She is not right mentally, yet gets away with every damn thing that she does. The kids will lie for her even to the Judge. My husband is a great father, loving caring. But he is a parent not a buddy like she tries to be. She has no rules etc. They are failing school etc. and she does nothing. I have told her how lucky she was to have a father who wanted to be involved in his children’s lives. She doesn’t care she is just hell bent on making his life miserable, not matter what effect it has had on the kids. HELP!!!!!!!

Response:

You may not be aware of this, but there was a recent case similar to yours where the wife did the same thing. The husband brought her to court and his alimony payments were reduced significantly because SHE wasn’t abiding by the rules. Hope this helps. Mike Bingle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you do when your husband’s ex-wife has alienated his kids against him. They are 13 and 16. They have been divorced for 8 years and she acts like it is still day 1. He hasn’t seen his daughter in two years and now the same is happening with his son. His ex lies to the courts left and right and so do the kids. She rakes him for support, (she is a waitress) so doesn’t claim her true earnings. She abuses his Insurance etc. We have been married for three years and she has made our life hell. We have a family and we cannot afford to take care of ourselves as we should because of her constant abuse. Yet, she tells Friend of the Court she makes only $250.00 a week, yet she just bought a house and added an addition on to it. She buys the kids the Jordans, Hillfigger, Old Navy. Has tons of money for attorneys. Has had braces on both kids and now is taking the daughter in for a second set. Yet the Ortho told us 6 months ago she didn’t need a second set. I could go on and on….. Why do the courts always think that the woman is the victim? She is not right mentally, yet gets away with every damn thing that she does. The kids will lie for her even to the Judge. My husband is a great father, loving caring. But he is a parent not a buddy like she tries to be. She has no rules etc. They are failing school etc. and she does nothing. I have told her how lucky she was to have a father who wanted to be involved in his children’s lives. She doesn’t care she is just hell bent on making his life miserable, not matter what effect it has had on the kids. HELP!!!!!!!

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My ex’s girlfriend is badmouthing me to my child.  My ex does nothing to stop her.  Now he is trying to get primary custody of my child. Do I have any recourse in view of what she is doing to my relationship with my child?  Isn’t there a statute against badmouthing the other parent in front of the child?

Response:

[My ex’s girlfriend is badmouthing me to my child.  My ex does nothing to stop [her.  Now he is trying to get primary custody of my child. Do I have any [recourse in view of what she is doing to my relationship with my child?  Isn’t [there a statute against badmouthing the other parent in front of the child? Nope. The most important thing is living a life where none of the badmouthing is TRUE.  Kids aren’t stupid.  Don’t try to get into a stink contest with a skunk, either — don’t defend yourself, and very serious allegations being made against you — and then ONLY tell the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.  Even when it makes you look bad in some ways. And if the badmouthing is true because of what you did before, well, you are going to have to live with that.

Response:

and very serious allegations being made against you — and then ONLY tell the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.  

Some good advice there.  however, several of the people involved in this thread need to look up something called Parental Alienation Syndrome.  Tons of info about this on the web.  Try Lycos or Yahoo.  What many of you are experiencing is the target end of an alienating parent.  The information is disturbing, but the living results are even more so.  It’s important to know what you’re dealing with in the long term and how to avoid contributing to the problem.   As for child support, well in most states it doesn’t matter how much the custodial parent makes.  The support is based solely on what the non-custodial parent makes.

Response:

What do you do when your husband’s ex-wife has alienated his kids against him. They are 13 and 16.

She obviously is a moral bankrupt. What right does she have to deny children contact with their father? The woman is probably out to maximise child support so she can watch TV while you work. They have been divorced for 8 years and she acts like it is still day 1. He hasn’t seen his daughter in two years and now the same is happening with his son.

The woman is sick! It is called patricide. Is she a lesbian who is after vibrators, sperm banks and child support? His ex lies to the courts left and right and so do the kids. She rakes him for support, (she is a waitress) so doesn’t claim her true earnings. She abuses his Insurance etc.

What new? This is a typical feminists attitude: live off the labour of fathers and watch TV while the kids are at school.  They are about laziness, not getting up in the morning, and not supporting their children financially. . At least the father has some integrity. We have been married for three years and she has made our life hell. We have a family and we cannot afford to take care of ourselves as we should because of her constant abuse. Yet, she tells Friend of the Court she makes only $250.00 a week, yet she just bought a house and added an addition on to it. She buys the kids the Jordans, Hillfigger, Old Navy. Has tons of money for attorneys. Has had braces on both kids and now is taking the daughter in for a second set. Yet the Ortho told us 6 months ago she didn’t need a second set.

This is typical. They are supported by a lesbian feminist stalinists who aim at a society of vibrators and sperm banks. She obviously has no sense of responsibilty to either her children, society or any self-respect. Ignore her and let her rot in her own bankrupt morality. I could go on and on….. Why do the courts always think that the woman is the victim?

Because the laws were made in the 80s when the women movement was about equality( which I agree with)  but too many radical lesbian feminists came to power who aim at patricide and living off men’s labour. They are essentially lazy and have changed the law to support their idleness. The situation in Australia is that men on child support have effective marginal tax rates in excess of 85% while the women watch TV at midday when the kids are at school and make no effort to support financially their children.  They stop their children from seeing their fathers merely to maximise child support. They are sick! She is not right mentally, yet gets away with every damn thing that she does. The kids will lie for her even to the Judge. My husband is a great father, loving caring. But he is a parent not a buddy like she tries to be. She has no rules etc. They are failing school etc. and she does nothing. I have told her how lucky she was to have a father who wanted to be involved in his children’s lives. She doesn’t care she is just hell bent on making his life miserable, not matter what effect it has had on the kids. HELP!!!!!!!

She is typical of the women’s movement today- morally bankrupt!

Response:

Question:

SNIP  In an article I read in an RV trade magazine they stated that there were no requirements as to staying in the unit at all.  Self contained boats also fell in that catagory.  Well, they can say whatever they want, but I only believe the IRS, when it comes to the tax code, not some trade pub.

SNIP Come on guys, how is the IRS, or anyone else for that matter, going to know how many days you sleep in an RV, or if you use it at all other than parking it in your driveway? Simple ownership is all that matters when deducting interest paid on the trailer as a second home (as long as you don’t have a third or fourth one somewhere to complicate matters).                         Regards, John Davies NOTE: When replying by e-mail – remove NOSPAM from address

Response:

   As I understand that portion of the tax code covering what you ask:

I’d be interrested in what IRS regs/publications form the basis of your understanding. The only thing I’ve been able to find is publication 936, available in html format at www.irs.ustreas.gov.    The requirement is that you have            1) A kitchen with refrigerator and food cooking area            2) A bathroom with marine or otherwise FLUSHING toilet               (porta-potty does not qualify)

936 says: *Qualified Home   * *For you to take a home mortgage interest deduction, your debt must be secured *by a qualified home.  This means your main home or your second home.  A home *includes a house, condominium, cooperative, mobile home, boat, or similar *property that has sleeping, cooking, and toilet facilities. I don’t see any mention of refrigerator or flushing.  A hunting camp with an outhouse has "toilet facilities".            3) You have to live in the unit 30 days during the tax               year.

It’s 14 days, and only applies if you rent it out.  Again from 936: *Second home.  If you have a second home that you do not rent to others, you can *treat it as a qualified home.  It does not matter whether you use the home *during the year. … *Second home rented out.  If you have a second home and rent it out part of the *year, you also must use it during the year for it to be a qualified home.  You *must use this home more than 14 days or more than 10% of the number of days *during the year that the home is rented at a fair rental, whichever is longer. *If you do not use the home long enough it is considered rental property and not *a second home. This is a recurring subject, especially this time of year Does _anyone_ have accurate, additional information on the topic?  Like from another IRS publication, or a court ruling, or an IRS "clarification" during an audit.  Opinions from accountants don’t count unless they can be backed up. /mjs

Response:

 In an article I read in an RV trade magazine they stated that there were no requirements as to staying in the unit at all.  Self contained boats also fell in that catagory.  Well, they can say whatever they want, but I only believe the IRS, when it comes to the tax code, not some trade pub.

IRS Publication 936, Home Mortgage Interest Deduction, explains it clearly.  It states a "Qualified Home . . . .  A home includes a house, condominium, cooperative, mobile home, boat or similar property that has sleeping, cooking, and toilet facilities." It goes on to define a Second Home.  "If you have a second home that you do not rent to others, you can treat it as a qualified home.  It does not matter whether you use the home during the year." The 14 days provision mentioned in this thread applies only if you rent out the second home.  Then you also have to live in it for for the specified period of time.  If you don’t rent it out you don’t have to use it.   Dick Hughes – W6CCD  

Response:

 In an article I read in an RV trade magazine they stated that there were no requirements as to staying in the unit at all.  Self contained boats also fell in that catagory.   Well, they can say whatever they want, but I only believe the IRS, when it comes to the tax code, not some trade pub. —

But in this case they speak the truth.  You DO NOT have to spend any time in an RV to deduct the interest UNLESS you are renting it out for income. That is also what the IRS says. Roger

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   Well, they can say whatever they want, but I only believe the IRS, when it comes to the tax code, not some trade pub.

  Could you point me to the part of the code that says that?  Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html<head</head<BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"<p<font size=3D3 = color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Times New Roman"<br<br<br<br<br&gt; = in an RV trade magazine they stated that there<br&gt; &gt;were no = requirements as to staying in the unit at all. &nbsp;Self = contained<br&gt; &gt;boats also fell in that catagory.<br<br<br&gt; = &nbsp;&nbsp;Well, they can say whatever they want, but I only believe = the IRS, when<br&gt; it comes to the tax code, not some trade = pub.<br&gt; <br&gt; — <br&gt; Ralph Lindberg N7BSN = But in this case they speak the truth. &nbsp;You DO NOT have to spend = any time in an RV to deduct the interest UNLESS you are renting it out = for income. That is also what the IRS says.<br<brRoger<br </p </font</body</html

  PS, the problem with using multi-part MIME is that your message appears twice, once as plain text (as replied to above) and once with lots of garbage (HTML tags, etc) thrown in — RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/ Just because MS-Window’s holds 90% of the market doesn’t mean it’s superior.  Remember 90% of all animals are insects.

Response:

  In an article I read in an RV trade magazine they stated that there were no requirements as to staying in the unit at all.  Self contained boats also fell in that catagory.   -Todd www.broadmoor-rv.com

Response:

 In an article I read in an RV trade magazine they stated that there were no requirements as to staying in the unit at all.  Self contained boats also fell in that catagory.

  Well, they can say whatever they want, but I only believe the IRS, when it comes to the tax code, not some trade pub. — RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/ Just because MS-Window’s holds 90% of the market doesn’t mean it’s superior.  Remember 90% of all animals are insects.

Response:

  In an article I read in an RV trade magazine they stated that there were no requirements as to staying in the unit at all.  Self contained boats also fell in that catagory.   -Todd www.broadmoor-rv.com

I’ve seen a couple of posts asking tax questions. Thought you may like to now there is an IRS web site. I got a lot of good information there myself. It’s at www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/cover.html, and at the bottom of the page are links to lots of different areas within the site. Hope this helps.

Response:

Hi, I am planing on buying a slide in camper for a pickup truck. Does anyone know if I can call this my 2nd home and deduct the interest on this loan? Can we deduct the interest on the truck loan? Or just the interest on the camper loan? Thanks, Joe

The interest on the camper loan is deductible only  if the camper is "fully self-contained".  That’s the definition the IRS uses to qualify a "2nd home". The interest on the truck loan is not deductible.   Happy Rving!! J. Sanders

Response:

       The requirement is that you have                1) A kitchen with refrigerator and food cooking area                2) A bathroom with marine or otherwise FLUSHING toilet                   (porta-potty does not qualify)                3) You have to live in the unit 30 days during the tax                   year.

  As I recall the time period is only 14 days, we both could be wrong and checking the code would be the best thing.        Most of the slide-in cab-overs meet the first two requirements, and you can figure out how to meet the third (but you better keep logs and receipts to prove it).

  I have never heard of anyone being challenged on their RV loan, since RV’s -lose- money (vis a good 2nd home that you could make money on) I doubt the IRS would — RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/ Just because MS-Window’s holds 90% of the market doesn’t mean it’s superior.  Remember 90% of all animals are insects.

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: Hi, : I am planing on buying a slide in camper for a pickup truck. Does anyone : know if I can call this my 2nd home and deduct the interest on this : loan? Can we deduct the interest on the truck loan? Or just the interest : on the camper loan? : Thanks, : Joe         As I understand that portion of the tax code covering what you ask:         The requirement is that you have                 1) A kitchen with refrigerator and food cooking area                 2) A bathroom with marine or otherwise FLUSHING toilet                    (porta-potty does not qualify)                 3) You have to live in the unit 30 days during the tax                    year.         Most of the slide-in cab-overs meet the first two requirements, and you can figure out how to meet the third (but you better keep logs and receipts to prove it).         Forget adding the truck in, though!         If the camper can slide out (isn’t welded in/permanently affixed), the truck is not part of the "second home" – it’s just a way of moving it. So, NO, it does not qualify for the tax write-off.         The truck for a trailer of 5th-wheel would NOT, either.  Whereas the portion of a motorhome does qualify, because it cannot be removed.

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Hi, I am planing on buying a slide in camper for a pickup truck. Does anyone know if I can call this my 2nd home and deduct the interest on this loan? Can we deduct the interest on the truck loan? Or just the interest on the camper loan? Thanks, Joe

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Question:

Somewhere I read a comment from L. Francis Herreschoff. He was asked what was the hull speed of one of his designs. He replied, "A thousand knots, if you apply enough power." As a long time sailor, I can report that it is not all that unusual to exceed the supposed theoretical hull speed. Only once in 35 years of sailing, though, have I exceeded hull speed for more than a few minutes at a time.

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       What actually happens in going supersonic….. Good post! In very shallow water, water waves around a boat can come much closer to resembling sound waves around a trans-sonic airplane. That’s because there’s much less change in wave speed as a function of wavelenth (speed of sound waves is independent of wavelength) so the wave energy can accumulate in one wave-front. It’s even possible, under the right combination of speed and depth, to get that "shock wave"  extending out at right angles to the flow. In real-world situations, the way we usually see this is by observing a "spreading" of the trailing wave system in shallow water. — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

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This should start a war, but anyway: A boat even a planning hull does not climb up on its bow wave. Interesting theory but please explain to me what you call the wave I’ve observed under the quarter of a planing vessel when the entire bow area is in the air ?

A very good question. The bow wave occurs at and infront of the point where boat meets water. If a hull is designed to "fly" then the new bow is actually way aft of the normal low speed position. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It’s bow wave is like the shock wave infront of an airplane. When an aeroplane goes supersonic has it not then broken through the shockwave in front of it? No, It can’t. —            /       Michael W. Madden         _/ |      215 898-0939         /  |       -/   |      I’d rather be sailing!

–            /       Michael W. Madden         _/ |      215 898-0939         /  |       -/   |      I’d rather be sailing!

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= When an aeroplane goes supersonic has it not then broken through the shockwave in front of it? = Well, this is actually a bit of an oversimplification. Not a very relevant one in the discussion of planning boats but anyway. A bit less= simplified view could be described as below: =

[snip] Very good explaination, really. The point was that you can no more climb a bow wave than you can fly ahead of a planes shock wave. — =            /       Michael W. Madden         _/ |      215 898-0939         /  |       -/   |      I’d rather be sailing!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Something about the maxim that keel boats cannot plane has always bothered me. This summer, we met a lady that races a Laser 28..and we were aboard when she planed beating into the wind! This is a fin keeled boat too. She went from 5.5 to about 8.5kts. indicated, and we *felt* the acceleration, so it wasn’t something wierd with the speedo. How does this happen? Does the sail area alone push the boat up on the back edge of the bow wave? Even though she was beating are you sure that the predominant wafe was not abeam and was she really surfing ? — Regards,   Al Saunders, R.I.N. Author: Small Craft Piloting and Coastal Navigation Author: Small Craft Celestial Navigation Instructor: Canadian Yachting Association http://www.globalserve.net/~cbeeson/alzarc.htm

Al,   Positively, she was planning. When I reacted to the acceleration, she said that she does that regularly! She claims to have hit 11 kts. in this boat while beating! I can believe it, as the boat is *very* light and skittish. She races this boat exclusively, and has won some races. The Laser is under 5k lbs. I believe, which is light for a 28 ft. But a keel boat planning (and the boat actually rises a bit up out of the water) is what makes me wonder about how this is possible. Larry Demers

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul,   Something about the maxim that keel boats cannot plane has always bothered me. This summer, we met a lady that races a Laser 28..and we were aboard when she planed beating into the wind! This is a fin keeled boat too. She went from 5.5 to about 8.5kts. indicated, and we *felt* the acceleration, so it wasn’t something wierd with the speedo. How does this happen? Does the sail area alone push the boat up on the back edge of the bow wave? This should start a war, but anyway: A boat even a planning hull does not climb up on its bow wave.

Interesting theory but please explain to me what you call the wave I’ve observed under the quarter of a planing vessel when the entire bow area is in the air ?  It’s bow wave is like the shock wave infront of an airplane.

When an aeroplane goes supersonic has it not then broken through the shockwave in front of it?  Planning actually happens when a boat breaks the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – suction under the stern. This suction occurs because gravity cannot fill the hole where the boat used to be fast enough. This can happen in several ways, but the most common is by lifting the entire boat out of the water. The upward force caused by the boats foward motion and the hull shape increases as the boat speed increases. As the boat rises it’s displacement decreases and the shape presented to the water changes. Eventually the boat reaches a balance between hull lift and drag and from there on the boat is said to be planning. Of course it’s easier to drill holes in the bottom and let air fill the vaccumn at the stern. —            /       Michael W. Madden         _/ |      215 898-0939         /  |       -/   |      I’d rather be sailing!

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When an aeroplane goes supersonic has it not then broken through the shockwave in front of it?

Well, this is actually a bit of an oversimplification. Not a very relevant one in the discussion of planning boats but anyway. A bit less simplified view could be described as below: The shockwave of a supersonic aeroplane actually consists of several small waves. This is because the velocity of flow is different in different places along the surface of the wing, for example. As a result, different parts of the craft "Break the sound barrier" at different times, depending on the local flow velocities. What actually happens in going supersonic, is that the shockwave pattern generated by the aeroplane just changes shape. Think about the wing surface for a moment. When the flow velocity approaches sonic, it does so first at the point in the profile where the velocity is at its maximum. This is typically the thickest point of the profile. When the aircraft speed- and along with it the flow velocity over the wing surface- increases, the point of sonic velocity creeps forward until it reaches the leading edge of the wing. At this point the shockwave pattern changes shape from essentially normal to the surface to a sharp pointed "angle". The amount of change is governed by a lot of variables including the "bluntness" of the leading edge. The significance of the wave shape has to do with the pressure distribution before and after the wave. In front of the wave, the flow velocity is supersonic and pressure is low. After the wave, the velocity is typically subsonic and the pressure is high (Bernoulli). In the case of a shockwave which is normal to the flow, the drop in velocity and the associated rise in pressure is big. In a wave of, say 45 degrees, the effect is much smaller. This means that the flow over the surface of a supersonic aircraft may well be subsonic all the way. The shockwaves in front of all the leading edges take care of this. Now, the "bang" you hear when a supersonic aeroplane passes is *not* the sound of a "sound barrier breaking" but the audible indication of the very prapid pressure increase behind the shockwave. The fact that a lot of power is required to go supersonic is probably due to the fact that at the point when there exists a shockwave normal to the flow somewhere along the wing surface, the velocity drop is bound to be very detrimental to lift generated by the wing. In addition to this, the leading edge of the wing experienced a supersonic flow, while the trailing edge experienced a subsonic flow. This again leads to weird cordwise distribution of lift, which again has some effect to the controllability problems experienced by the pioneers of supeersonic flight. What has this to do with the bow wave of a planning boat hull? Not much! Even though the two phenomena look similar from the outside, they are not. The onset of planning has to do with dynamic lift of the hull, resulting in a change of the caracteristics of the wave pattern of the boat. This has been described by a lot of posters in this thread. The "breaking of the sound barrier" has to do with local velocity/pressure distributions along the surface. And again: I am not an expert on either of these subjects, so I am getting ready to don my flameproof clothing. Until then, timo

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Windsurfers are light enough to plane. A 505 doesn’t experience a hull-speed limit either.

: : It seems to me that a surfboarder can reach very repspectable : speeds with no apparent means of locomotion at all. … : :This is on an inland lake where there are no significant waves :except for the occassional wake from a waverunner or small motor :boat.  Surfers on this lake are dead in the water unless they :have a sail on their board!  My favored theory remains that there :is some funny interaction between boat heel, water flow, and the :speedo, i.e., that it is a false reading. : :Russell : :– : Newton plain doesn’t work, even as an approximation, : except within certain limits.        – Moggin Rodney Myrvaagnes   J36 Gjo/a   20 years without a car, TV, or home page

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          Well I NEVER said keelboats can’t plane…. My apologies – that was directed at a previous post in the same thread.           As for planing vs. aeration they are two paths to the same end.           If we agree on a definition of planing: lifting the boat out           of the water by means of lift generated by the forward motion           of the boat in order to present a smaller displacement to to           water, then the effect of planing is to reduce the energy           required to fill the hole where the boat just was. i.e.           smaller hole less energy. Aerating the stern also reduces the           energy required to fill this hole by using air instead of water,           about 80 times less work for the same volume. Transom aeration can be observed on large vessels operating *way* below hull speed. Again, it has nothing to do with planing. You can also plane without aerating the transom (Santa Cruz 27, for example). If we go with your novel "energy required to fill the hole in the water" theory, it seems to me that when the hole in the water fills, the energy is being returned. The boat has to work to push the water *out* of the hole, right? If the transom is aerated, isn’t the hole bigger? And if hydrodynamic instead of hydrostatic forces support the hull, doesn’t Newton’s third law (action = reaction) suggest that the water still gets pushed downward by the same amount, making the same size hole? I’m not trying to dismiss this way of looking at wave resistance – it probably ends up being equivalent to the standard techniques, if we’re careful with our energy accounting. But the popular misconception of transom aeration = planing is just that. — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

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A few minuts might be possible on a large wave – but hours? (sailors exagerate). — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html

Paul, Once I was walking along and saw a fly fisherman with only one arm.  I couldn’t believe it.  There he was fly fishing with only one arm.  I had to stop and ask him, "Did you catch anything?"  He held up one hand and said I caught one, that big!" Sea Ya! Bart Senior, ASA Sailing Instructor           ARS:  KC5VUO copyright 1996

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  Something about the maxim that keel boats cannot plane has always bothered me. This summer, we met a lady that races a Laser 28..and we were aboard when she planed beating into the wind! This is a fin keeled boat too. She went from 5.5 to about 8.5kts. indicated, and we *felt* the acceleration, so it wasn’t something wierd with the speedo. How does this happen? Does the sail area alone push the boat up on the back edge of the bow wave?

Even though she was beating are you sure that the predominant wafe was not abeam and was she really surfing ? — Regards,   Al Saunders, R.I.N. Author: Small Craft Piloting and Coastal Navigation Author: Small Craft Celestial Navigation Instructor: Canadian Yachting Association http://www.globalserve.net/~cbeeson/alzarc.htm

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Even though she was beating are you sure that the predominant wafe was not abeam and was she really surfing ?

I’ve seen this behavior on my Hunter 23 in protected waters where the biggest waves are those generated by power boats. On a reach or run, we never break 4+ knots, but close hauled in a good breeze the knotmeter will hit 7 or even 8 for short distances.  I have no idea why, and I have no way of measuring the speed more objectively.  I have speculated that the heeling causes odd water flow over the speedo, but (a) this happens on both tacks, and (b) it happens mostly when we keep her on her feet. Beats me.  I have a hard time believing we are actually going that fast in a 23′ keelboat, so I suspect it is something funky in how the speedo works … Russell —  Newton plain doesn’t work, even as an approximation,  except within certain limits.        – Moggin

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Paul,   Something about the maxim that keel boats cannot plane has always bothered me. This summer, we met a lady that races a Laser 28..and we were aboard when she planed beating into the wind! This is a fin keeled boat too. She went from 5.5 to about 8.5kts. indicated, and we *felt* the acceleration, so it wasn’t something wierd with the speedo. How does this happen? Does the sail area alone push the boat up on the back edge of the bow wave?

This should start a war, but anyway: A boat even a planning hull does not climb up on its bow wave. It’s bow wave is like the shock wave infront of an airplane. Planning actually happens when a boat breaks the suction under the stern. This suction occurs because gravity cannot fill the hole where the boat used to be fast enough. This can happen in several ways, but the most common is by lifting the entire boat out of the water. The upward force caused by the boats foward motion and the hull shape increases as the boat speed increases. As the boat rises it’s displacement decreases and the shape presented to the water changes. Eventually the boat reaches a balance between hull lift and drag and from there on the boat is said to be planning. Of course it’s easier to drill holes in the bottom and let air fill the vaccumn at the stern. —            /       Michael W. Madden         _/ |      215 898-0939         /  |       -/   |      I’d rather be sailing!

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It seems to me that a surfboarder can reach very repspectable speeds with no apparent means of locomotion at all. …

This is on an inland lake where there are no significant waves except for the occassional wake from a waverunner or small motor boat.  Surfers on this lake are dead in the water unless they have a sail on their board!  My favored theory remains that there is some funny interaction between boat heel, water flow, and the speedo, i.e., that it is a false reading. Russell —  Newton plain doesn’t work, even as an approximation,  except within certain limits.        – Moggin

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I think you are confusing "transom aeration" with planing. On many boats the two phenomena happen to occur at about the same speed, but they’re unrelated. Your stern suction explanation seems to depend on local pressure on the hull being somewhat less than atmospheric before planing, but increasing again at the onset of planing. Can you explain why this would happen? And who ever said keelboats can’t plane? We see it every day.

Well I NEVER said keelboats can’t plan. My J27 can blow you away on little 6 inch waves and we love power boaters crossing behind us. As for planing vs. aeration they are two paths to the same end. If we agree on a definition of planing: lifting the boat out of the water by means of lift generated by the forward motion of the boat in order to present a smaller displacement to to water, then the effect of planing is to reduce the energy required to fill the hole where the boat just was. i.e. smaller hole less energy. Aerating the stern also reduces the energy required to fill this hole by using air instead of water, about 80 times less work for the same volume. —            /       Michael W. Madden         _/ |      215 898-0939         /  |       -/   |      I’d rather be sailing!

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Even though she was beating are you sure that the predominant wafe was not abeam and was she really surfing ? I’ve seen this behavior on my Hunter 23 in protected waters where the biggest waves are those generated by power boats. On a reach or run, we never break 4+ knots, but close hauled in a good breeze the knotmeter will hit 7 or even 8 for short distances.  I have no idea why, and I have no way of Russell —

It seems to me that a surfboarder can reach very repspectable speeds with no apparent means of locomotion at all.  The surfer merely position the board as to be moving approximately parallel with a wave but poing slight ‘downill on the leading surface of the wave’.  The surfer, due to gravity, will move ‘downhill’.  The surfer does not move directly down the wave surface or it would be a short ride.  He approximately parallels the frontal surface so that he is going slightly downhill in the direction of the wave but also along the frontal surface nearly parallel to the wave.  In this manner the surfer can reach speeds of many times the speed at which the wave is being propogated forward.  The same is true of a sailboat.  In fact once you get the sailboat in a surfing situation you would actually increase your speed if you could instantaneously furl your sails to reduce forward movement wind resistance. Generally, to get a sailboat in a surfing situation requires large fast waves and because you lose much of your steering capability there is a high likelihood of broaching or pitchpoling.  It is a great thrill but phenomenally dangerous. — Regards,   Al Saunders, R.I.N. Author: Small Craft Piloting and Coastal Navigation Author: Small Craft Celestial Navigation Instructor: Canadian Yachting Association http://www.globalserve.net/~cbeeson/alzarc.htm

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       This should start a war, but anyway:….. Blam! Pow! Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat  Ka-Boom!        ….Planning actually happens when a boat breaks the        suction under the stern….. I think you are confusing "transom aeration" with planing. On many boats the two phenomena happen to occur at about the same speed, but they’re unrelated. Your stern suction explanation seems to depend on local pressure on the hull being somewhat less than atmospheric before planing, but increasing again at the onset of planing. Can you explain why this would happen? And who ever said keelboats can’t plane? We see it every day. — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

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First, is LWL the striaght line distance from bow to stern, or the two dimensional arc around the beam? Second, and possibly answered by the first, My gut feeling says a beamier boat will have a lower hull speed.  Am I confused?  There was an earlier post that suggested that a narrow beamed boat can "cut" through the bow wake much easier.

Hull speed is based on the standing wavelength of the wave train. Basically, at hull speed the boat sits in a trough between two crests–one wave length.  Therefore the waterline length–beam is not a factor, effects hull speed.  When the forces increase the boat cannot go faster, but something has to happen–conservation of energy. If a boat cannot plane, increasing power will force it underwater–it will sink deeper in the trough.  My buddy Saul sank a dignghy once and the fellow who tried to tow him didn’t know this hot-rodded the tow boat and is sank it he trought it made.  Saul like to brag he sank two boats in one day.  Anyway, lots of overhang, means not only reserve buoancy, but a slight increase in hull speed as the waterline length increases as the boat sinks slightly.  Reserve Buoancy is an important factor in chosing a boat–it keeps it from sinking. For boats that plane, the bow can come out of the water and the limitations of waterline lenght are overcome–you might call it warp speed. Hence a short boat on plane is just as fast or faster than a longer boat.  For example the Pacific Cup was won a few years back by a Moore 24 with a busted radio, suprised everyone by winning over much bigger and usually faster SC70’s–much to the chagrin of the SC70 owners.  Moore 24’s are about perfect for surfing for hours the waves of the Pacific–literally surfing the same wave for hours! So what does beam get you?  More room inside, less pointing ability, less initial heel, greater righting moment (until the critical angle is reached), and increased planing ability (especialy for flat bottomed boats). Sea Ya! Bart Senior, ASA Sailing Instructor           ARS:  KC5VUO copyright 1996

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         ……            Moore 24’s are about perfect for surfing for hours the waves          of the Pacific–literally surfing the same wave for hours!          …… Agree about Morre 24s, but I need to bring up pesky wave theory again and spoil the fun: In deep water, the "envelope velocity" or speed of energy propagation is only half that of the "phase velocity" or celerity, which is the speed of the wave profile. As a consequence of this, any one individual wave will always be losing energy to the wave behind it, and the life of any one wave is necessarily short. In real ocean conditions you will find nodes between even the most regular wave trains, where other wavelengths and wave periods take over. Every individual wave gradually moves to the front of its wave train (becuase it outruns its energy source) and dissipates. A few minuts might be possible on a large wave – but hours? (sailors exagerate). — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

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It is easy to confuse hull speed with the amount of power needed to achieve such.  I would argue that a boat with greater beam would probably need more power to reach hull speed but that its hull  speed would not necessarily be less.   Also, when calculating hull speed it’s important to take into account the fact that a boat’s LWL may be much greater while underway vs at rest. Many older designs such as mine, where not drawn to sail upright. Eric Machinist Grampian 31 Classic

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Hull speed is based on the standing wavelength of the wave train. Basically, at hull speed the boat sits in a trough between two crests–one wave length.  Therefore the waterline length–beam is not a factor, effects hull speed.  When the forces increase the boat cannot go faster, but something has to happen–conservation of energy. Bart Senior, ASA Sailing Instructor           ARS:  KC5VUO copyright 1996

Bart,      My understanding is that hulls with a LWL:Beam ratio of 10:1 or more aren’t limited by this formula because they cut through the bow wave.      If this weren’t the case, then my Hobie 18 would be limited to 6.36 knots, not the 15 to 18 that is possible.  I think, to this extent, beam DOES make a difference, although you’re probably correct in reference to monohull sailboats.      My guess is that this is also the thing that allows destroyers to reach 32 knots without being 450 feet long. Brian McGee

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –               First, is LWL the straight line distance from bow to               stern, or the two dimensional arc around the beam? It’s the straight-line distance. Even if the boat was very wide compared to it’s length (imagine a floating plank being towed sideways) the stern wave crest would still come up at a position which satisfied the speed-wavelength relationship V=SQRT(g*L/(2*pi)).               Second, and possibly answered by the first, My gut feeling               says a beamier boat will have a lower hull speed.  Am I               confused?  There was an earlier post that suggested that a               narrow beamed boat can "cut" through the bow wake much               easier. Your intuition is correct. For two hulls of similar length and displacement, the one that’s narrower and deeper will generate less wave resistance. In fact the basic linearized mathematical models for computing wave resistance show that wave resistance is proportional to beam squared. Here’s a not-very-rigorous intuitive approach: Think of a boat being driven beyond hull speed as trying to climb the back of the bow wave or the "uphill" side of the concave water surface it creates, without having the "downhill" stern wave face to balance the forces. The narrower boat, having less waterplane, will feel smaller forces due to the adverse slope of the water surface. An absurdly narrow boat – again think of a plank, but this time turn it on edge and tow it the easy way – will feel vanishingly small resistance due to the "uphill" water surface. (I said this wasn’t very rigoruos, and there’s a serious flaw in this reasoning – but that will be "left as an exercise for the reader") All bets are off if the hull can plane, however, and in practice the wide boat often has the advantage (more sail-carrying power, more dynamic lift for planing). — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

Fishmeal should know, but I always thought that "hull speed" was the terminal speed that a boat could not exceed without planing. All other factors which control speed, e.g. beam, sail area, merely dictate how soon a boat reaches hull speed and how long it stays there. —

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First, is LWL the striaght line distance from bow to stern, or the two dimensional arc around the beam? Second, and possibly answered by the first, My gut feeling says a beamier boat will have a lower hull speed.  Am I confused?  There was an earlier post that suggested that a narrow beamed boat can "cut" through the bow wake much easier. Thanks in advance. D. George Jensen San Diego, CA, USA

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              First, is LWL the straight line distance from bow to               stern, or the two dimensional arc around the beam? It’s the straight-line distance. Even if the boat was very wide compared to it’s length (imagine a floating plank being towed sideways) the stern wave crest would still come up at a position which satisfied the speed-wavelength relationship V=SQRT(g*L/(2*pi)).               Second, and possibly answered by the first, My gut feeling               says a beamier boat will have a lower hull speed.  Am I               confused?  There was an earlier post that suggested that a               narrow beamed boat can "cut" through the bow wake much               easier. Your intuition is correct. For two hulls of similar length and displacement, the one that’s narrower and deeper will generate less wave resistance. In fact the basic linearized mathematical models for computing wave resistance show that wave resistance is proportional to beam squared. Here’s a not-very-rigorous intuitive approach: Think of a boat being driven beyond hull speed as trying to climb the back of the bow wave or the "uphill" side of the concave water surface it creates, without having the "downhill" stern wave face to balance the forces. The narrower boat, having less waterplane, will feel smaller forces due to the adverse slope of the water surface. An absurdly narrow boat – again think of a plank, but this time turn it on edge and tow it the easy way – will feel vanishingly small resistance due to the "uphill" water surface. (I said this wasn’t very rigoruos, and there’s a serious flaw in this reasoning – but that will be "left as an exercise for the reader") All bets are off if the hull can plane, however, and in practice the wide boat often has the advantage (more sail-carrying power, more dynamic lift for planing). — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                               -"Call me Fishmeal"-

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –              First, is LWL the straight line distance from bow to              stern, or the two dimensional arc around the beam? It’s the straight-line distance. Even if the boat was very wide compared to it’s length (imagine a floating plank being towed sideways) the stern wave crest would still come up at a position which satisfied the speed-wavelength relationship V=SQRT(g*L/(2*pi)).              Second, and possibly answered by the first, My gut feeling              says a beamier boat will have a lower hull speed.  Am I              confused?  There was an earlier post that suggested that a              narrow beamed boat can "cut" through the bow wake much              easier. Your intuition is correct. For two hulls of similar length and displacement, the one that’s narrower and deeper will generate less wave resistance. In fact the basic linearized mathematical models for computing wave resistance show that wave resistance is proportional to beam squared. Here’s a not-very-rigorous intuitive approach: Think of a boat being driven beyond hull speed as trying to climb the back of the bow wave or the "uphill" side of the concave water surface it creates, without having the "downhill" stern wave face to balance the forces. The narrower boat, having less waterplane, will feel smaller forces due to the adverse slope of the water surface. An absurdly narrow boat – again think of a plank, but this time turn it on edge and tow it the easy way – will feel vanishingly small resistance due to the "uphill" water surface. (I said this wasn’t very rigoruos, and there’s a serious flaw in this reasoning – but that will be "left as an exercise for the reader") All bets are off if the hull can plane, however, and in practice the wide boat often has the advantage (more sail-carrying power, more dynamic lift for planing). — http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html                                              -"Call me Fishmeal"-

Paul,   Something about the maxim that keel boats cannot plane has always bothered me. This summer, we met a lady that races a Laser 28..and we were aboard when she planed beating into the wind! This is a fin keeled boat too. She went from 5.5 to about 8.5kts. indicated, and we *felt* the acceleration, so it wasn’t something wierd with the speedo. How does this happen? Does the sail area alone push the boat up on the back edge of the bow wave?

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