Question:

Hi, I’m trying to get financial assistance to pay for a junior accounting assistant/ bookkeeping/ office administration course. My potential lenders asked me to submit results for the following survey. I’d appreciate both those working as bookkeepers/ administrators, and those in a hiring position, to fill out as much of the survey as they can or want to. Results from those working in Canada will be more relevant to me but any response is greatly appreciated. You can post your results here or email them to me directly. Thank you again, Dedee – dedee hyphen g at telus dot net <–BOOKKEEPING / OFFICE ADMINISTRATION – SURVEY START — 1). What is your occupation? 2). What are the top five skills required for junior level bookkeepers/office administrators in your company (please include specific software skills)? 3). What is the typical starting salary? What can someone expect to make after 5 years of experience? 4). What are the main tasks? 5). What is challenging about this type of work? 6). What is rewarding about this type of work? 7). What level and type of  formal education/training required for a junior level bookkeeper/ office administrator’s position? What are possible alternatives for developing the necessary skills and knowledge in lieu of a formal education? 8). Are there any specific schools/ institutions that are recognized by your organization? 9) What changes in your industry do you see occurring in the future with regards to your bookkeeping / office administration staff? <–BOOKKEEPING / OFFICE ADMINISTRATION – SURVEY END —

Response:

Me thinks you are wasting yours and our time. Des – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m trying to get financial assistance to pay for a junior accounting assistant/ bookkeeping/ office administration course. My potential lenders asked me to submit results for the following survey. I’d appreciate both those working as bookkeepers/ administrators, and those in a hiring position, to fill out as much of the survey as they can or want to. Results from those working in Canada will be more relevant to me but any response is greatly appreciated. You can post your results here or email them to me directly. Thank you again, Dedee – dedee hyphen g at telus dot net <–BOOKKEEPING / OFFICE ADMINISTRATION – SURVEY START — 1). What is your occupation? 2). What are the top five skills required for junior level bookkeepers/office administrators in your company (please include specific software skills)? 3). What is the typical starting salary? What can someone expect to make after 5 years of experience? 4). What are the main tasks? 5). What is challenging about this type of work? 6). What is rewarding about this type of work? 7). What level and type of  formal education/training required for a junior level bookkeeper/ office administrator’s position? What are possible alternatives for developing the necessary skills and knowledge in lieu of a formal education? 8). Are there any specific schools/ institutions that are recognized by your organization? 9) What changes in your industry do you see occurring in the future with regards to your bookkeeping / office administration staff? <–BOOKKEEPING / OFFICE ADMINISTRATION – SURVEY END —

Response:

Me thinks you are wasting yours and our time. Des

Why is that Des? Your response left me curious.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to get financial assistance to pay for a junior accounting assistant/ bookkeeping/ office administration course. My potential lenders asked me to submit results for the following survey. 1). What is your occupation? 2). What are the top five skills required for junior level bookkeepers/office administrators in your company (please include specific software skills)? 3). What is the typical starting salary? What can someone expect to make after 5 years of experience? 4). What are the main tasks? 5). What is challenging about this type of work? 6). What is rewarding about this type of work? 7). What level and type of  formal education/training required for a junior level bookkeeper/ office administrator’s position? What are possible alternatives for developing the necessary skills and knowledge in lieu of a formal education? 8). Are there any specific schools/ institutions that are recognized by your organization? 9) What changes in your industry do you see occurring in the future with regards to your bookkeeping / office administration staff?

Your lender is looking for this?  Me thinks you’re a spammer and looking for potential spamees.   Why would a lender even care about some of these quesions? "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds another young boy to victimize."                          referring to Justin                          Timberlake To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Your lender is looking for this?  Me thinks you’re a spammer and looking for potential spamees. Why would a lender even care about some of these quesions?

Hi Nick, The "lender" is the Canadian Government in general, and the HRDC and Employment Insurance branches in particular. They do not so much *loan* unemployed people money for continued education, or skills upgrading courses, as they do pay in part, or in whole, for such courses. But they don’t just hand out money to anybody making such a request. In order to even get them to look at an application for finacial assistance they require numerous surveys to be filled out, amongst tons of other research projects, to be sure they aren’t wasting their money (*my tax dollars*) on someone taking a skills upgrading course for some job that has very limited openings or requires years of specialized education. I’m applying for what I thought their was a fair amount of job opening potential, if not the greatest pay. Although my initial survey request probably sounded like spam to savy UseNet users such as yourself (I know that would be my first thought) I can assure you it is not. Again, If you would like to fill out the survey in part, or in whole, I would really appreciate your valued time in doing so. Thanks again, Dedee

Response:

Question:

dunno…i just spent another half-hour or so wrestling with my computer to get any news servers to display asd posts, besides my isp’s server, which is terrible.  the site i normally use to "reinstall" the "external" news servers (as i think of them) when they seem to need it (such was my thought this time) listed exactly *three* free servers that include asd.  normally there’s at least 2 or 3 *pages* of servers.  and the most msgs listed on the three servers listed today was 450 or so.  usually it’s in the 3000-5000 message range. so, i dunno what’s going on.  if i knew how usenet worked, i might be able to form some hypotheses, given this information.  however, it’s one of the great mysteries of the world as far as i’m concerned.  (actually i don’t imagine it would take much for me to figure it out.  the problem is knowing the right question to ask.  anyone feel like taking a crack at explaining how the whole news server thingy works?  :) fwiw, i used to do tech support, so i can handle the techie version, and would prefer not hearing the newb version.  but then…being a techie and admitting that i don’t understand something casts apsersions on my competence or something, so perhaps i shouldn’t disparage the newb version entirely, and… ok, i’m gonna shut up.) clearly i need to just post *lots* and *lots* of messages, and see what happens after that.  that’s obviously the correct way for me to proceed at this point, in trying to gather data to figure out what’s up with the ng. it’s entirely possible that this is just a "normal" slump, but i haven’t seen one even remotely this bad in the nearly-three years i’ve been posting. *shrugs* toodles, y’all. jt — "It is astonishing, really, how many thoroughly mature, well-adjusted grown-ups harbor a teddy bear — which is perhaps why they are thoroughly mature and well-adjusted." — Joseph Lempa

Response:

hiya, embies! the prob i have is that i can’t figure out how many *new* msgs have come in *at all* because my normal reference points aren’t responding.  ie: i have one news server that i keep "up to date" on what i’ve read, replied to, etc, and that one is how i figure out how many "new" msgs there’ve been. since i’ve had to install 2 new servers to check mail, and my isp’s is so dreadful that i don’t usually update it anyway, i’m out to sea, cuz i haven’t "read" any of the posts on the new servers, and – possibly more importantly – i don’t have the nifty little symbol that lets me know i’ve responded to something already. ahh, well…your response gave me something to respond to.  if we get a half-dozen other ppl doing that sorta thing, we’ll be in great shape in no time!  :-D *fond thoughts* jt (who’s been keeping you in her thoughts for weeks and weeks.  :) )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey jt, we had over thirty posts in the past 24 hours, and that was before i sent about five or so with the reposts. the h’rry p’tter newsgroup seems to be filling just fine. i can’t remember where my isp gets it’s main newsfeed atm, and actually, right now i suddenly can’t even remember how to do the stupid little thing that i did to check. it’s a big one. grrrr… if i had known how my mind was going to blank, i wouldn’t have started the post. ah well, i’ll leave it so as to appease both you and Jill. peace from our pieces, embies, who have a serious post to write, and can’t bring themselves to do it. (it’s been days!!!!!!!

grrrrrrrr…… some – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – more.) dunno…i just spent another half-hour or so wrestling with my computer to get any news servers to display asd posts, besides my isp’s server, which is terrible. the site i normally use to "reinstall" the "external" news servers (as i think of them) when they seem to need it (such was my thought this time) listed exactly *three* free servers that include asd. normally there’s at least 2 or 3 *pages* of servers. and the most msgs listed on the three servers listed today was 450 or so. usually it’s in the 3000-5000 message range. so, i dunno what’s going on. if i knew how usenet worked, i might be able to form some hypotheses, given this information. however, it’s one of the great mysteries of the world as far as i’m concerned. (actually i don’t imagine it would take much for me to figure it out. the problem is knowing the right question to ask. anyone feel like taking a crack at explaining how the whole news server thingy works?  :) fwiw, i used to do tech support, so i can handle the techie version, and would prefer not hearing the newb version. but then…being a techie and admitting that i don’t understand something casts apsersions on my competence or something, so perhaps i shouldn’t disparage the newb version entirely, and… ok, i’m gonna shut up.) clearly i need to just post *lots* and *lots* of messages, and see what happens after that. that’s obviously the correct way for me to proceed at this point, in trying to gather data to figure out what’s up with the ng. it’s entirely possible that this is just a "normal" slump, but i haven’t seen one even remotely this bad in the nearly-three years i’ve been posting. *shrugs* toodles, y’all. jt

Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Response:

hiya, embies!

heyhi! we’ve been meaning to write you on more serioous matters, but at the moment it seems that we can’t even smell them right. (smell was supposed to be spell, but there was an internal consensus among those present that *this* was *absolutely hilarious.*  there’s no accounting for taste, and we can’t generally type or spell correctly, si i don’t see what all the fuss is about.) the prob i have is that i can’t figure out how many *new* msgs have come in *at all* because my normal reference points aren’t responding. ie: i have one news server that i keep "up to date" on what i’ve read, replied to, etc, and that one is how i figure out how many "new" msgs there’ve been.

welp, i guess there’s not a thing i can do, eh? since i’ve had to install 2 new servers to check mail, and my isp’s is so dreadful that i don’t usually update it anyway, i’m out to sea, cuz i haven’t "read" any of the posts on the new servers, and – possibly more importantly – i don’t have the nifty little symbol that lets me know i’ve responded to something already.

do you normally read online or offline? i read offline, so this sends me starkers when i have thousands of posts to wade through. <starkers, eh?  been hanging with brits much?  you probably don’t even know how to use the word! ahh, well…your response gave me something to respond to.  if we get a half-dozen other ppl doing that sorta thing, we’ll be in great shape in no time!  :-D

well, as i can type alternately on and off, i might as well contribute now.  blah…blah…blah…. there we go! *fond thoughts*

indeed. **joy bubbles** heading your way. jt (who’s been keeping you in her thoughts for weeks and weeks. )

embies, who’s pleased to be in your thoughts, and happy to have you in same. Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Response:

This is a fairly typical ‘normal’ for this sort of thing. To quote my so ‘there is a glitch somewhere in the net at the moment’. As I’m sure you know, the net is a huge… net Computers are linked together and propogate news along the line. Well, some of the servers are dedicated to just this now and do it all the time for profit (aol for example) and some are still dinky little people passing stuff on in their basement (us for example:) and some are companies who are really doing other stuff for profit but _also_ pass news on as well (many companies like motorola, at&t, lucent, ibm, etc). This is most likely where the problem comes in. For whatever reason these companies get busy and can’t/won’t devote resources to keeping their link up. At one point when my so was till at avaya the company pulled all support for their net connection. It was still there but it was being maintained in peoples spare time. So, anyone who was relying on this server for news was getting stuff hit or miss. The servers (this word looks so wrong) who are up for profit obviously have an incentive to stay up. They do go down at times and that can cause some SERIOUS problems (I remember a huge aol problem a few years ago) but they _want_ to be up and running asap as they have paying customers. But the companies who are doing this as a side have no reason to fix things in a hurry. And of course the small places (whether for profit or just people like us) may not have the time/money/knowledge to keep things going properly all the time. At the moment we are having to force a manual collection of news through our backup which is freenet in Germany *waves to mischa:)* Our in country connections are all bogged down and getting in maybe three posts a day. At some point in the net there is a glitch. Possibly a big server is down or several lesser ones. Usually people find out a week or so later what went wrong as it filters out that so and so was down. Meanwhile, somewhere there is a _Huge_ pressure of backlogged posts clogging up and when they break free… Rainbow Colors (Jill) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dunno…i just spent another half-hour or so wrestling with my computer to get any news servers to display asd posts, besides my isp’s server, which is terrible.  the site i normally use to "reinstall" the "external" news servers (as i think of them) when they seem to need it (such was my thought this time) listed exactly *three* free servers that include asd.  normally there’s at least 2 or 3 *pages* of servers.  and the most msgs listed on the three servers listed today was 450 or so.  usually it’s in the 3000-5000 message range. so, i dunno what’s going on.  if i knew how usenet worked, i might be able to form some hypotheses, given this information.  however, it’s one of the great mysteries of the world as far as i’m concerned.  (actually i don’t imagine it would take much for me to figure it out.  the problem is knowing the right question to ask.  anyone feel like taking a crack at explaining how the whole news server thingy works?  :) fwiw, i used to do tech support, so i can handle the techie version, and would prefer not hearing the newb version.  but then…being a techie and admitting that i don’t understand something casts apsersions on my competence or something, so perhaps i shouldn’t disparage the newb version entirely, and… ok, i’m gonna shut up.) clearly i need to just post *lots* and *lots* of messages, and see what happens after that.  that’s obviously the correct way for me to proceed at this point, in trying to gather data to figure out what’s up with the ng. it’s entirely possible that this is just a "normal" slump, but i haven’t seen one even remotely this bad in the nearly-three years i’ve been posting. *shrugs* toodles, y’all. jt — "It is astonishing, really, how many thoroughly mature, well-adjusted grown-ups harbor a teddy bear — which is perhaps why they are thoroughly mature and well-adjusted." — Joseph Lempa

–      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

gotcha. this sorta approximated my hazy understanding of how usenet works pretty well.  ;)  sorta matched up with what i figured was going on, too, i guess. dunno bout the huge backlog of posts, though.  :)  sorry. i usually read a freenet thingy from Germany, but i’m getting tcp/ip errors on both germany servers i usually use. *pout* but it seems serviceable enough at the moment (i mean, my current arrangement), so i’ll stop grumbling and devoting large amounts of mental energy towards this problem.  wait. i wasn’t doing that anyway. oh well…it’s a migraine day, so i’m keeping things light in my head.  (*muted snickers heard inside*) jt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a fairly typical ‘normal’ for this sort of thing. To quote my so ‘there is a glitch somewhere in the net at the moment’. As I’m sure you know, the net is a huge… net Computers are linked together and propogate news along the line. Well, some of the servers are dedicated to just this now and do it all the time for profit (aol for example) and some are still dinky little people passing stuff on in their basement (us for example:) and some are companies who are really doing other stuff for profit but _also_ pass news on as well (many companies like motorola, at&t, lucent, ibm, etc). This is most likely where the problem comes in. For whatever reason these companies get busy and can’t/won’t devote resources to keeping their link up. At one point when my so was till at avaya the company pulled all support for their net connection. It was still there but it was being maintained in peoples spare time. So, anyone who was relying on this server for news was getting stuff hit or miss. The servers (this word looks so wrong) who are up for profit obviously have an incentive to stay up. They do go down at times and that can cause some SERIOUS problems (I remember a huge aol problem a few years ago) but they _want_ to be up and running asap as they have paying customers. But the companies who are doing this as a side have no reason to fix things in a hurry. And of course the small places (whether for profit or just people like us) may not have the time/money/knowledge to keep things going properly all the time. At the moment we are having to force a manual collection of news through our backup which is freenet in Germany *waves to mischa:)* Our in country connections are all bogged down and getting in maybe three posts a day. At some point in the net there is a glitch. Possibly a big server is down or several lesser ones. Usually people find out a week or so later what went wrong as it filters out that so and so was down. Meanwhile, somewhere there is a _Huge_ pressure of backlogged posts clogging up and when they break free… Rainbow Colors (Jill) dunno…i just spent another half-hour or so wrestling with my computer to get any news servers to display asd posts, besides my isp’s server, which is terrible.  the site i normally use to "reinstall" the "external" news servers (as i think of them) when they seem to need it (such was my thought this time) listed exactly *three* free servers that include asd.  normally there’s at least 2 or 3 *pages* of servers.  and the most msgs listed on the three servers listed today was 450 or so.  usually it’s in the 3000-5000 message range. so, i dunno what’s going on.  if i knew how usenet worked, i might be able to form some hypotheses, given this information.  however, it’s one of the great mysteries of the world as far as i’m concerned.  (actually i don’t imagine it would take much for me to figure it out.  the problem is knowing the right question to ask.  anyone feel like taking a crack at explaining how the whole news server thingy works?  :) fwiw, i used to do tech support, so i can handle the techie version, and would prefer not hearing the newb version.  but then…being a techie and admitting that i don’t understand something casts apsersions on my competence or something, so perhaps i shouldn’t disparage the newb version entirely, and… ok, i’m gonna shut up.) clearly i need to just post *lots* and *lots* of messages, and see what happens after that.  that’s obviously the correct way for me to proceed at this point, in trying to gather data to figure out what’s up with the ng. it’s entirely possible that this is just a "normal" slump, but i haven’t seen one even remotely this bad in the nearly-three years i’ve been posting. *shrugs* toodles, y’all. jt — "It is astonishing, really, how many thoroughly mature, well-adjusted grown-ups harbor a teddy bear — which is perhaps why they are thoroughly mature and well-adjusted." — Joseph Lempa —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

hey jt, we had over thirty posts in the past 24 hours, and that was before i sent about five or so with the reposts. the h’rry p’tter newsgroup seems to be filling just fine. i can’t remember where my isp gets it’s main newsfeed atm, and actually, right now i suddenly can’t even remember how to do the stupid little thing that i did to check. it’s a big one. grrrr… if i had known how my mind was going to blank, i wouldn’t have started the post. ah well, i’ll leave it so as to appease both you and Jill. peace from our pieces, embies, who have a serious post to write, and can’t bring themselves to do it. (it’s been days!!!!!!! grrrrrrrr…… some more.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dunno…i just spent another half-hour or so wrestling with my computer to get any news servers to display asd posts, besides my isp’s server, which is terrible. the site i normally use to "reinstall" the "external" news servers (as i think of them) when they seem to need it (such was my thought this time) listed exactly *three* free servers that include asd. normally there’s at least 2 or 3 *pages* of servers. and the most msgs listed on the three servers listed today was 450 or so. usually it’s in the 3000-5000 message range. so, i dunno what’s going on. if i knew how usenet worked, i might be able to form some hypotheses, given this information. however, it’s one of the great mysteries of the world as far as i’m concerned. (actually i don’t imagine it would take much for me to figure it out. the problem is knowing the right question to ask. anyone feel like taking a crack at explaining how the whole news server thingy works?  :) fwiw, i used to do tech support, so i can handle the techie version, and would prefer not hearing the newb version. but then…being a techie and admitting that i don’t understand something casts apsersions on my competence or something, so perhaps i shouldn’t disparage the newb version entirely, and… ok, i’m gonna shut up.) clearly i need to just post *lots* and *lots* of messages, and see what happens after that. that’s obviously the correct way for me to proceed at this point, in trying to gather data to figure out what’s up with the ng. it’s entirely possible that this is just a "normal" slump, but i haven’t seen one even remotely this bad in the nearly-three years i’ve been posting. *shrugs* toodles, y’all. jt

Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Response:

Question:

I have a question that deals with exchange rates for US to Canadian. Our accounting system is capable of printing checks with both the US and Canadian currency showing Side by side. We paid our Canadian vendors US currency showing what the Canadian value is right next to the US $. We use the most recent exchange rate for that week.  Every Monday we update our rates in our system to show the latest rates. My question is that is some cases our vendors

Question:

And what is it used for? Thanks!

Response:

And what is it used for? Thanks!

For smaller sized companies, financial institutions (bankers) or investors (i.e. small group of joint ventures holding majority of the company’s stocks) are probably more interested in EBITDA, rather than EBIT.  EBITDA focuses more on the company’s cash operations. A classic example would be a group of investors acquiring a small company through "purchase-method of accounting" where the transaction resulted in substantial recognition of goodwill.  The amortization of goodwill could have a large impact on the company’s P&L.  Using EBITDA would filter this out which could be more informative to investors or bankers (who tend to be more cash basis oriented.

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Question:

Thanks for the answers. One last question is: Now due to HUTAH of the world it is also a "Degree program" CGA are eligible for the CPA exam.

What is a HUTAH???

Response:

CGA are audit approved in most Canadian provinces and have similar rights and responsibilities. Now due to HUTAH of the world it is also a "Degree program" CGA are eligible for the CPA exam. One would think that such a clever person would know something.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A CA has a university degree, passed challenging professional exams, and has 3 years public accounting (auditing & tax) experience. As a CA, I wrote a 2.5hour "reciprocity" exam (all multiple choice, entry level), and am now certified CPA in the state of Illinois. The CA is recognized worldwide. The CGA used to be an easy program that only required college credits, and is common in entry level and more menial level jobs. As far as I know, the CGA is useless outside Canada. Hello, I have a quick question regarding the professional associations mentioned above. I understand the difference between the CMA and CGA/CA, but what is the difference between a CA and a CGA? Which one is more likely to enhance job prospects? Can a CGA/CMA/CA challenge exams in the US for their associations? Thanks. KL

Response:

A CA has a university degree, passed challenging professional exams, and has 3 years public accounting (auditing & tax) experience. As a CA, I wrote a 2.5hour "reciprocity" exam (all multiple choice, entry level), and am now certified CPA in the state of Illinois. The CA is recognized worldwide. The CGA used to be an easy program that only required college credits, and is common in entry level and more menial level jobs. As far as I know, the CGA is useless outside Canada.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have a quick question regarding the professional associations mentioned above. I understand the difference between the CMA and CGA/CA, but what is the difference between a CA and a CGA? Which one is more likely to enhance job prospects? Can a CGA/CMA/CA challenge exams in the US for their associations? Thanks. KL

Response:

Hello, I have a quick question regarding the professional associations mentioned above. I understand the difference between the CMA and CGA/CA, but what is the difference between a CA and a CGA? Which one is more likely to enhance job prospects? Can a CGA/CMA/CA challenge exams in the US for their associations? Thanks. KL

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Question:

You want to be a TeleCommuter?  Try "Telecommuting Job Opportunities": http://www.tjobs.com/jobopps.htm Joe Morris eBusiness Sales Consultant http://www.icode.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am curious as to whether there are opportunities to earn an income from undertaking professional accounting / tax work on the internet.  I am interested in discovering whether I can obtain training and employment in the US while living in Australia. I wish to work for an accounting practice located in the US. I would prepare taxation returns and undertake other accounting work. However I would be located in Australia and all my work and other communications for the accounting business would be via the internet. Can anyone assist me in identifying accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Alternatively, where can I obtain more information on accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Finall, what professional qualifications do I require? Any advice / assistance would be appreciated.

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I am curious as to whether there are opportunities to earn an income from undertaking professional accounting / tax work on the internet.  I am interested in discovering whether I can obtain training and employment in the US while living in Australia. I wish to work for an accounting practice located in the US. I would prepare taxation returns and undertake other accounting work. However I would be located in Australia and all my work and other communications for the accounting business would be via the internet. Can anyone assist me in identifying accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Alternatively, where can I obtain more information on accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Finall, what professional qualifications do I require? Any advice / assistance would be appreciated.

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Question:

I agree with Vernon that reinstalling and copying the data is easiest. Another possibility is (if you’re technically able) to take the hard drive from the old computer and place in the new one temporarily and transfer the program and data to the c drive. Run the program and copy dll’s and ini files as needed until it works. It’s not a pretty method but does work. Luck,  Dana To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the address Visit our web site at http://www.tailored-computing.com

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Our condominium office has bought a new computer (Y2K). Is there an easy way to transfer the Simply Accounting program and files from the old computer to the new one? We do have a tape backup but I wonder if the program would run. Thanks, bill

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Because many Windows programs place some files in the Windows directory and/or subdirectories thereof, and almost all Windows programs make entries in the Registry, your best bet is to re-install the software.  Assuming you have the original CD (or diskettes), this only takes a couple of minutes.  Anything else is risky.  After installing, you should check the software web site for downloadable updates. There are a few programs available that attempt to move application software intact from one folder to another or one computer to another, but for only one or a few applications it’s probably just as fast, cheaper, and less risky, just to re-install. The data files are a different matter.  Open Simply on the old computer.  Click File, Backup, to make a copy of your data files on diskette. Insert the diskette in the new computer.  Open Simply and click File, Restore.  If you have more than one company file, repeat for each.  If you KNOW the names of the data files you can use any data compression software (such as WinZip) to do the same thing. .ca… Our condominium office has bought a new computer (Y2K). Is there an easy way to transfer the Simply Accounting

program and files from the old computer to the new one? We do have a tape

backup but I wonder if – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the program would run. Thanks, bill

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Question:

My shipping agent quoted

Question:

I have another employment question.  I am in the education field and am on medication for anxiety and panic disorders.  I am able to function fine with the assistance of these meds.  My question is when I apply for a job in a "drug free workplace" what do I tell them?  I am afraid I may not be hired if I mention it (although I am certain they will give another reason), and if the screening comes out positive, then I would be eliminated for lying.  What to do?

Why would this be a problem? These *are* prescription medications, aren’t they? Just be honest. "Drug free" implies illegal drugs, not things that are meant to keep you healthy and are prescribed by a doctor.

Response:

Thanks for all the posts & emails!.  I just finished printing my resume and cover letter and will go mail it soon. I will be offline until at least Sunday, at which time I will try to respond to all the comments & suggestions. Joyous (belated) Solstice, Happy Channukah, Merry Christmas and Happy Ramaden to all! Lori from SF

Response:

I’ve been talking about getting a job for a while now.  Well what could be a golden opportunity has fallen into my lap, so I need some

advice. Lori, I’ll get back to you on this matter tomorrow.  I am almost asleep now.  Anyway, I work at an SDA that receives grant monies to educate/reeducate those who are unemployed.  I do a lot of work with resumes for people like you. Have a little patience and I’ll get back to you.                       … Tasha … ~8)

Response:

I’ve been talking about getting a job for a while now.  Well what could be a golden opportunity has fallen into my lap, so I need some advice. Short Version: For those who have been unemployed, then found jobs.  What did you put on your resume and say in your interviews?

You answered that question yourself.  You have been self-employed (resume) and not really in need of full time employment (interview). **I am going to put on my resume for the past 1 1/2 years is self-employed tax preparer and financial consultant.  This is true, I have been preparing tax returns for family members and some friends (for money!) and my mom’s paid me to do some financial consulting, which I worked hard on (and am still working on).

**During the interview (if it gets that far) I’m going to say (almost verbatim): I left the job to deal with some health issues.  Go easy here.

… Best to keep the health issues under wraps unless directly asked.  It may be illegal to discriminate, but they do and get away with it … "someone else is more qualified." I also received a modest inheritance from my grandmother (true) so I decided to take the time to really get my life together. ( Forget the income talk.  It’s none

of their business.)  I did some (had the opportunity to do some) traveling.  ( and got my body back in order. )

Again, your health issue is none of their business and could be used against you. The reason I am looking for this job now is because you sent me a letter, and I thought it would be foolish to ignore an opportunity like this.

Right on!!!  They are convincing you that they are giving YOU a great opportunity! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Long Version: Before my breakdown I was working in the perfect job (for me).  I was preparing tax returns for individuals and trusts for one of the major accounting firms, on a flex-time schedule where I averaged 30 hrs a week, but I could ‘book’ over time so I could have long vacations, etc. There was no pressure to become a manager (yecch!) and people appreciated my work.   When I broke down I didn’t call into work for 3 weeks, so I lost the job.  (I know there’s a possibility I could get it back under the anti-discrimination law, but I pushed it as far as I was willing

to go). Forget the long version.  It may lose you the opportunity.  Stress the opportunity they are offering you which is convincing you to leave the realm of self-employment. Since then (July 1996) I have been on a combination of disability and unemployment.  I was planning to start temp work after Christmas (if my body cooperates).  There aren’t a lot of positions like what I had.  There are about 3 companies that do this and 2 were ruled out because I wouldn’t or couldn’t go back to work for them.  The 3rd I had also worked for but I thought it wouldn’t work out.

Don’t tell them the above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Friday a get a letter in the mail from the 3d firm.  (It’s addressed to all former employees, not me personally, but . . . ) They are changing around how they do their tax preparation and are hiring exactly what I am qualified for.  They are hiring full-time but also part-time, seasonal and flex-time.   The only thing NOT perfect about this is that the job is in Oakland – but even that just means I’ll have a longer commute by public transit (I don’t own or plan to own a car).  I DON’T want a full time job. As a matter of fact I’m not even sure I want a permanent job at this time. I’d be happy to have a seasonal job, just to see if I can make

it. Stress the perfect part if you want the chance for the work. Always tell the good stuff and shhh on the negs.  No explainations are needed.  Just think of how that traveling has changed your outlook on life, and don’t forget how much you learned being self-employed.  These are NOT lies, they are the better part of the truth. This could be my perfect job AGAIN.  Not many people get two chances like this.  So, I’m updating my resume and am going to send it in

Monday. Keep it brief.  Your resume is intended to get you the interview, not the job.  The interview is how you get the job. Use phrases.  Start them with action words or skill words, as say, "Communicate well with customers" instead of, "I am very good at working with customers."  This way as the prospective employer reads your resume, he picks up the most important words. Remember, he will be reading (skimming ) a number of resumes.  In actuality some companies run the resumes through a scanner to pick up the specific attributes they want in an employee. A long time ago, I got a pamphlet (written by a local attorney who specializes in discrimination law) about what to say and not say on resumes and interviews. Basically the pamphlet says NOT to use the words disability, diagnosis, workers’ comp, etc.  It says it’s ok to mention ‘health problems’ but to minimize ongoing complications and if the problem is cleared up to say so.

Right on … but feel freee to skip the health problems altogether.  An employer may be paying for some of your health insurance.    ~ Snipped the part already talked about ~ The reason I am looking for this job now is because you sent me a letter, and I thought it would be foolish to ignore an opportunity like

this. Great stuff here! If they ask me why I’m not going back to my old job I’m going to say: I’m still exploring my options (implying that I might).

Good! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyway, I’d like to get people’s reactions.   Also, if anyone wants the address where to send to get this pamphlet, I can send it (or post it if there’s enough interest). I was talking to my sister (who does administrative stuff) and she says to say NOTHING.  I don’t have to disclose my (potential) disability. After reading what I could find on the net, this seems to be true.  As long as you can do the job, with accommodation, you don’t have to mention the job until after hired.  AND THEY CAN’T ASK.  The only exception is if there is some reason, like a delivery person has to be able to lift boxes.

Your sister is right.  Don’t mention your problems after you are hired either unless you have to. I’m feeling better than I have in a long time (not just the anxiety/depression, but also allergies are under control and the weight is getting there.  I don’t know for sure whether my anxiety will come back once I am working again.  I hope not, I don’t expect it, but it’s possible (and of course I’m still enough of a worry wart to worry about it).  I need all the encouragement I can get.

I am behind you 100%!!! If you made it this far, thanks for reading.

I hope my input helped.  As I said, my work is in training and retraining the unemployed.  We help out with lots of GOOD resumes. I know because I can’t believe some of the ones we get from those looking for teaching jobs. Let us … me… know how you make out. Lori from SF

Woops, that’s not me.  I’m …                       … Tasha … ~8) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not one shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious.

Response:

I have another employment question.  I am in the education field and am on medication for anxiety and panic disorders.  I am able to function fine with the assistance of these meds.  My question is when I apply for a job in a "drug free workplace" what do I tell them?  I am afraid I may not be hired if I mention it (although I am certain they will give another reason), and if the screening comes out positive, then I would be eliminated for lying.  What to do?

Cindy, Big difference between medications for a disorder or illnes as opposed to the *drugs* they are looking for.  I never had to take a drug test, but if I did I would first ask what they are looking for (you have the right to know that).  I don’t know of any tests that are looking for stuff like Xanax or Zoloft, typically marijuana, coke, other street stuff, maybe alcohol.  I don’t know what to tell you – there have been times I have told employers about my PD and times I did not.  I did when I was working THIER hours because I felt they needed to know in case I panicked.  I didn’t when I contracted and worked my own hours.  Maybe someone else knows better if this would show up or not.  Is a shame we have to be worried about it as they, like you said, help you function normally. Gwen  

Response:

<piggybacking on Jen’s post cause I’m lazy I have been in the position of interviewing and hiring for three different companies. I would not look askance at a period of unemployment for raising children (men or women) or for a period of self-employment, as I have been self-employed a couple of times. I would, however, be suspect if an interviewee volunteered information to the effect that s/he was "trying to get her life together," "had some medical problems," as I am automatically concerned with future problems with absenteeism, Workman’s Comp claims,  etc. Not the way it’s supposed to work, but, employers are USUALLY human. Lori, I don’t think you have children, do you? If not, then "raising children" should be out. <G I would go the "tried to start my own business" route, especially now that CW has been so good as to post all the details about what drug screens pick up, etc. (Thanks, CW!!) Well, be sure and let us know which way you go, ‘k? And how the interview goes, etc. Not sure if this will help, but I was Terrified of job interviews, beforehand. Once they actually start, though, you just want to tell your story and explain why you are the best possible choice for the job. A couple of hints from the side of me that has conducted interviews from the other seat: Sit up straight, have a picture-perfect copy of your resume, references, letters of recommendation and examples of your work (if applicable) with you, don’t fidget with your hair or hands, look the interviewer in the eye regularly, and, most important, see him/her as a person trying to do a good job for his/her company, not as someone out to blow *you* outta the water!! *Don’t* say you’re nervous, even if you are. *Don’t* be the first to mention pay. If you are asked what sort of salary you are expecting, brighten up and say, "Well, if this is a job offer, I’m sure we can come to some kind of agreement." Good luck!! Elizabeth

Response:

I’ve been talking about getting a job for a while now.  Well what could be a golden opportunity has fallen into my lap, so I need some advice. <snipped for space

Lori, My advice to you is say NOTHING about your PD. Go in as any other person would for the interview, get the job, and then, if there are problems, deal with it according to the new law that’s in place that will protect your job. If you tell them up front, you will not have avery good chance of getting hired. If they ask why you have not been working, ….if you have children…say you were staying home to raise your children and you are now ready to re-join the out-of-the-home workforce. I think most on this group will agree with this advice…???? Best Wishes, Jen

Response:

I have another employment question.  I am in the education field and am on medication for anxiety and panic disorders.  I am able to function fine with the assistance of these meds.  My question is when I apply for a job in a "drug free workplace" what do I tell them?  I am afraid I may not be hired if I mention it (although I am certain they will give another reason), and if the screening comes out positive, then I would be eliminated for lying.  What to do? Cindy

Response:

[...] Short Version: For those who have been unemployed, then found jobs.  What did you put on your resume and say in your interviews?

Short Answer: I wouldn’t worry about it TOO much, Lori. This is one of those few situations in which one can benefit from sexism. That is, if you’re male and there’s a long gap on your resume, they get curious. If you’re female, they assume you were off doing "girl stuff"–having babies or fixing somebody’s dinner or something (regardless of your marital status, these days). I wouldn’t try to explain it at all. Yes, there’s an implicit (and wry) smiley in this message–but I also believe it to be true. And I do some of the hiring where I work. Virginia

Response:

<snipping… I’m feeling better than I have in a long time (not just the anxiety/depression, but also allergies are under control and the weight is getting there.  I don’t know for sure whether my anxiety will come back once I am working again.  I hope not, I don’t expect it, but it’s possible (and of course I’m still enough of a worry wart to worry about it).  I need all the encouragement I can get.

Lori- For the past four years I have been self employed and for the last two have done a great deal of work for two firms, almost exclusively.  At one place I told them what was going on, at the other, I said nothing. At the place where my colleagues knew, I was more anxious and worried about "falling apart".  I put more stress on myself since I figured if they saw anything "wrong" with me, they would assume I was losing it again.  At the other firm, I didn’t have that stress.  It was easier for me and I did better (and still do) there with panic and anxiety.   Just my experience. all the best- Lisa

Response:

I have another employment question.  I am in the education field and am on medication for anxiety and panic disorders.  I am able to function fine with the assistance of these meds.  My question is when I apply for a job in a "drug free workplace" what do I tell them?  I am afraid I may not be hired if I mention it (although I am certain they will give another reason), and if the screening comes out positive, then I would be eliminated for lying.  What to do? Cindy

I saw some stuff when I was looking for my info.  There is a web site at http://www.eeoc.gov/ From what I could tell, employers are allowed to discriminate against illegal drug use.  Presumably this means they can’t discriminate against legal drug use.  After all, there are plenty of medications that would show up in a drug test, depending on what they test for and how.  There was also info about how the info is to be kept confidential. Just don’t eat any poppy bread or bagels before the test.  This gives a positive reading for opium.  :) Lori from SF Not one shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious.

Response:

Hi Lori I’ve been talking about getting a job for a while now.  Well what could be a golden opportunity has fallen into my lap, so I need some advice. Short Version: For those who have been unemployed, then found jobs.  What did you put on your resume and say in your interviews? I am going to put on my resume for the past 1 1/2 years is self-employed tax preparer and financial consultant.  This is true, I have been preparing tax returns for family members and some friends (for money!) and my mom’s paid me to do some financial consulting, which I worked hard on (and am still working on).

***Lori, I agree with putting that for the past 1 1/2 years you have been self- employed. During the interview (if it gets that far) I’m going to say (almost verbatim): I left the job to deal with some health issues.  I also received a modest inheritance from my grandmother (true) so I decided to take the time to really get my life together. I did some traveling and got my body back in order. The reason I am looking for this job now is because you sent me a letter, and I thought it would be foolish to ignore an opportunity like this.

***Lori, I would not mention leaving the old job for health issues or because you received a modest inheritance.  If you were a prospective employer hearing these two statements, you might think 1) this person has serious health problems or 2) this person will only work long enough to get a bit of money and then they will quit.  Saying that you want to get your life together sounds nice except for the fact that they might just interpret it as you have a lot of problems. Unfortunately, many employers have been burned by employees who don’t have their lives together or by employees who are sick a lot from chronic health problems or employees who quit as soon as they have a bit of money saved up.  Why not say that you left your previous job so you could get some additional experience working on your own or something else that sounds like leaving your previous job was a positive move to further your career or work experience.  Why not say that you had decided to go back into working for a company (rather than being self- employed) and that their company sounds like just the type of placement you were wanting. If they ask me why I’m not going back to my old job I’m going to say: I’m still exploring my options (implying that I might). Anyway, I’d like to get people’s reactions.   Also, if anyone wants the address where to send to get this pamphlet, I can send it (or post it if there’s enough interest). I was talking to my sister (who does administrative stuff) and she says to say NOTHING.  I don’t have to disclose my (potential) disability.  After reading what I could find on the net, this seems to be true.  As long as you can do the job, with accommodation, you don’t have to mention the job until after hired.  AND THEY CAN’T ASK.  The only exception is if there is some reason, like a delivery person has to be able to lift boxes.

***I agree with your sister.  People do not understand anxiety disorders and they often have a lot misconceptions about anxiety disorders. Talking about your anxiety disorder or even using the term health problems may only serve to make a prospective employer wary of hiring you.  Why not just emphasize what a good worker you are?  BTW, this is no different than a woman with 5 young children not wanting to make a big deal about how many young kids she has.  In this case, a prospective employer may be reluctant to hire her because they might fear that she would need a lot of time off work to take care of her kids. A prospective employer is looking for the best worker possible who will fit into their office.  They would, thus, naturally be wary of ANY possible problems a prospective employee may have. I’m feeling better than I have in a long time (not just the anxiety/depression, but also allergies are under control and the weight is getting there.  I don’t know for sure whether my anxiety will come back once I am working again.  I hope not, I don’t expect it, but it’s possible (and of course I’m still enough of a worry wart to worry about it).  I need all the encouragement I can get.

***I have been more anxious since going back to work.  However, I try to see my work anxiety as just being another opportunity to work on learning to control and deal with my anxiety while building the best life possible for me. Best wishes, Pegi

Response:

I’ve been talking about getting a job for a while now.  Well what could be a golden opportunity has fallen into my lap, so I need some advice. Short Version: For those who have been unemployed, then found jobs.  What did you put on your resume and say in your interviews? Long Version: Before my breakdown I was working in the perfect job (for me).  I was preparing tax returns for individuals and trusts for one of the major accounting firms, on a flex-time schedule where I averaged 30 hrs a week, but I could ‘book’ over time so I could have long vacations, etc.  There was no pressure to become a manager (yecch!) and people appreciated my work.   When I broke down I didn’t call into work for 3 weeks, so I lost the job.  (I know there’s a possibility I could get it back under the anti-discrimination law, but I pushed it as far as I was willing to go).   Since then (July 1996) I have been on a combination of disability and unemployment.  I was planning to start temp work after Christmas (if my body cooperates).  There aren’t a lot of positions like what I had.  There are about 3 companies that do this and 2 were ruled out because I wouldn’t or couldn’t go back to work for them.  The 3rd I had also worked for but I thought it wouldn’t work out. Friday a get a letter in the mail from the 3d firm.  (It’s addressed to all former employees, not me personally, but . . . ) They are changing around how they do their tax preparation and are hiring exactly what I am qualified for.  They are hiring full-time but also part-time, seasonal and flex-time.   The only thing NOT perfect about this is that the job is in Oakland – but even that just means I’ll have a longer commute by public transit (I don’t own or plan to own a car).  I DON’T want a full time job. As a matter of fact I’m not even sure I want a permanent job at this time. I’d be happy to have a seasonal job, just to see if I can make it. This could be my perfect job AGAIN.  Not many people get two chances like this.  So, I’m updating my resume and am going to send it in Monday.   A long time ago, I got a pamphlet (written by a local attorney who specializes in discrimination law) about what to say and not say on resumes and interviews. Basically the pamphlet says NOT to use the words disability, diagnosis, workers’ comp, etc.  It says it’s ok to mention ‘health problems’ but to minimize ongoing complications and if the problem is cleared up to say so. I am going to put on my resume for the past 1 1/2 years is self-employed tax preparer and financial consultant.  This is true, I have been preparing tax returns for family members and some friends (for money!) and my mom’s paid me to do some financial consulting, which I worked hard on (and am still working on).   During the interview (if it gets that far) I’m going to say (almost verbatim): I left the job to deal with some health issues.  I also received a modest inheritance from my grandmother (true) so I decided to take the time to really get my life together. I did some traveling and got my body back in order. The reason I am looking for this job now is because you sent me a letter, and I thought it would be foolish to ignore an opportunity like this. If they ask me why I’m not going back to my old job I’m going to say: I’m still exploring my options (implying that I might). Anyway, I’d like to get people’s reactions.   Also, if anyone wants the address where to send to get this pamphlet, I can send it (or post it if there’s enough interest). I was talking to my sister (who does administrative stuff) and she says to say NOTHING.  I don’t have to disclose my (potential) disability.  After reading what I could find on the net, this seems to be true.  As long as you can do the job, with accommodation, you don’t have to mention the job until after hired.  AND THEY CAN’T ASK.  The only exception is if there is some reason, like a delivery person has to be able to lift boxes. I’m feeling better than I have in a long time (not just the anxiety/depression, but also allergies are under control and the weight is getting there.  I don’t know for sure whether my anxiety will come back once I am working again.  I hope not, I don’t expect it, but it’s possible (and of course I’m still enough of a worry wart to worry about it).  I need all the encouragement I can get. If you made it this far, thanks for reading. Lori from SF Not one shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious.

Response:

Question:

The cost of flying is not the only problem with GA today. GA is its own worst enemy. Flying a light aircraft years ago meant a few intruments and a radio. Now most aircraft that I look at and that is including homebuilts have so much electonics and gadgets that they should paint Radio Shack on the side of them. That makes them more complex. That makes them harder to stay current in. That makes them harder to fix. That makes them much more expensive. That makes them more expensive to insure. That even gets the FAA more involved in them. Even if Cessna runs off 3 million new Skyhawks at $25,000 a piece every owner will deck them out so that they would cost $100,000 when they change hands. Even a Lancair I saw recently had by my numbers better than $25,000 worth of gadgets. I know some of the gadgets have a purpose but that is overkill. Why should a GA aircraft have intruments in them that would put a Boeing 777 to shame? It is becase GA is trying to compete with the airlines because that is where the FAA money is. No matter how I calculate the numbers owning a airplane instead of flying the airlines is a no win situation. Renting once in a while an option. But if you want to fly a distance an airplane is an expensive way to go. If you own a business then you may have a chance but if you don’ forget it. Aircraft ownership to me is more like boat ownership where if you use it every other weekend for four or five years it will justify the cost if not rent and or borrow. I too think that if the cost of aviation would come down then more people would fly. In its early days it was a rich mans sport and it still is. The money to get a ticket is not bad but to keep it current is another matter. The fact that the dollar cost have not gone up to get a license is not important because the rental cost have, insurance has and tie down space has, fuel prices have and everything else associated with it has. If you can afford to fly, do it, but do not try to justify it, for it is a sport just like golf or tennis. Mark K.

Response:

Greg: Your points are well taken, but, it surely seems that at one time I could more easily afford the treatment for my viral infection and I made much, much less money in those days.  :-) Vernon Barr

Response:

I don’t think that bringing the cost of certified airplanes down will do much, if anything, to help stimulate GA’s sales.  Cessna has done a LOT of research on the subject and, basically, what they found is that the people who bitch and moan about a new 172 costing $130,000 wouldn’t buy it even if it cost $50,000.

Well I am one of those bitching and they never asked me!  I estimate that I will spend over 70,000 on my homebuilt and 2000 hours.  I would quickly reconsider if the new Cessnas were selling for $50,000.   PS:  The $20,000 would be spent on building a single place bi-plane just for fun. Bob Reed, KIS Cruiser in progress…Oshkosh 2000 by Gosh!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Greg is absolutely right, in my opinion. There aren’t that : many people who would be interested in flying their own airplane, : even if it were easier and cheaper to do so. : : Face it, folks. As Greg Travis says, G.A. flying isn’t of interest to : very many people. In my opinion, it never will be. Getting the cost of : G.A. flying down by somehow improving the economy of manufacturing : scale and the cost of certification won’t change a thing, except the : out-of-pocket costs to pursue our interests. : : Mike : I don’t mean to be too critical, but this is totally incorrect. No one has said that flying isn’t too expensive for some people.  What has been said, by me at least, is that the cost of flying is not the primary reason for the collapse of the piston General Aviation industry. You would like to fly but find that you can’t given your other obligations. To you, flying is too expensive.  But the fact that you can’t afford to fly doesn’t tell us if flying is too expensive. I would like to own a fleet of luxury ocean liners.  Unfortunately, even one is priced far outside of my reach.  Would it then be logical to conclude that ocean liners are overpriced?

This is not a valid argument.  I, like many others my age have made the decision to have a family.  With my work experience and education, I also make quite a bit more than the median salary (I am not bragging, just trying to make a point).  At this point, flying is too expensive for me pursue.  Yes, I could make the decision to start flying again today.  The cost associated with that decision would require me to put off some of my retirement planning and would also have a negative impact on the money my wife would have available for her hobbies.  I am not saying that some- one of even modest means cannot afford to fly.  I am saying that the cost of flying has a considerable impact on the number of people who actively fly.  I have several friends who have done the same thing I have done. They have worked hard to save the money to get their license, then quickly stopped flying because of the COST.  Yes, we made a decision to stop flying, that is true.  Yes, with enough dedication (and by disregarding the negative effects) we would all be able to afford to fly.  But to use this as an argument that flying is not too expensive will only hurt aviation. If we demand considerable sacrifices from those with an interest in aviation, we are only hurting ourselves.  I certainly don’t have a solution to the high cost of flying, and I am not trying to be negative just for the sake of whinning (sp?), but I think to say that if it were important enough, I could find a way is not a reasonable argument (now is that a run on sentence or what?).  I think we may have to agree to disagree.  I really believe that flying is too expensive.  I believe that this has a negative impact on the number of active pilots.  As I advance in my career, I will again become an active pilot, but that will just have to wait.  I don’t feel that I am too different from many of friends from school who also loved flying but found it hard to afford even after graduation. With all due respect, the reason you do not fly is that you decided that, although you love flying, other things were even more important to you. You made the decision to have children (each of which will cost you FAR more than an airplane would), a wife, etc.  I’m not saying those were the wrong decisions (not by a long shot) but simply that they were decisions which you made. greg

Jeff Bougher

Response:

If you can afford to fly, do it, but do not try to justify it, for it is a sport just like golf or tennis. Mark K.

Are you kidding?  Justification is what it’s all about.  It’s not like most of us NEED to fly!  Some of us spend lots on golf clubs when a basic set will do; some will spend a fortune on the best tennis gear and join the best club when they only play once a month.  Some of us will always have to have something to show off — how many folks NEED a 300 mph plane and its related expenses when you can get places quickly in an aluminum people tube.  I fly because I like to sightsee and I like the sensations of flying and the satisfaction of good landings.  My time’s not so valuable that I need to spend twice as much to get there in half the time.  But then again, I NEED my plane . Duncan

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This thread has been pretty well discussed bu here is another viewpoint I haven’t seen expressed My first house (1972) cost $11,000.00 which was, at the time 50% of my annual income My first new car (1972) cost $2800.00 – 13% My average cost for utilities, groceries, etc. in 1972 was $200-300/mo Today: house $150,000 – 300% of annual income               car $25,000 50% of annual income               utilities groceries etc. 400-500/mo The problem is not necessarily how much the cost of flying has increased, but how much discretionary income has greatly decreased, and flying is one of the things that has been affected by this. Some of us WILL find a way to fly but the casual flyer may not. Also, if you bought one of the aforementioned Tri-Pacers for $3500 and held onto it for 15 years the value is now $15-25,000, so to you flying is not any more expensive than it was 15 yearas ago.But for a new flyer the initial outlay is from (for the most part) that small pile of discretionary cash. My $.02 worth "I fly; therefore I am" First rule of holes: "When your in one- stop digging!!!" Regards, Merle

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: Greg is absolutely right, in my opinion. There aren’t that : many people who would be interested in flying their own airplane, : even if it were easier and cheaper to do so. : : Face it, folks. As Greg Travis says, G.A. flying isn’t of interest to : very many people. In my opinion, it never will be. Getting the cost of : G.A. flying down by somehow improving the economy of manufacturing : scale and the cost of certification won’t change a thing, except the : out-of-pocket costs to pursue our interests. : : Mike : I don’t mean to be too critical, but this is totally incorrect. No one has said that flying isn’t too expensive for some people.  What has been said, by me at least, is that the cost of flying is not the primary reason for the collapse of the piston General Aviation industry. You would like to fly but find that you can’t given your other obligations. To you, flying is too expensive.  But the fact that you can’t afford to fly doesn’t tell us if flying is too expensive. I would like to own a fleet of luxury ocean liners.  Unfortunately, even one is priced far outside of my reach.  Would it then be logical to conclude that ocean liners are overpriced? : I am : also building a CH601HDS.  I love aviation, but my wife, like many : others is not quite so infatuated.  With two kids, a house and a : car, it gets hard to say no to something your SO wants so that you : can go out and indulge an avocation.  I will fly again.  I do love : flying.  The reason I do not fly is that it is too expensive. With all due respect, the reason you do not fly is that you decided that, although you love flying, other things were even more important to you. You made the decision to have children (each of which will cost you FAR more than an airplane would), a wife, etc.  I’m not saying those were the wrong decisions (not by a long shot) but simply that they were decisions which you made. You might want to revisit aircraft ownership costs too.  My airplane, for instance, has appreciated about 7% a year in the eight years that I’ve owned it.  That coupled with some upgrades that I’ve performed to it resulted in a recent quote (by a national appraisal company) that was nearly three times what I paid for the airplane in 1990. My maintenance expenses in 1997 were approximately $400 (that included the annual inspection) and my full-coverage (i.e. hull) insurance, at $800, was less than what I paid for both my cars.  Fuel at our field is now $1.63/gal (for 100LL), about 40 cents more than premium gas around here, and my hangar runs at $100/mo (making hangar expenses far and away the largest fixed-cost item). $200 a month total is what I paid to own a four-place Cessna 172 last year. If I had a couple partners, my cost would probably be lower than my month’s beer allowance.  Not that I want or need partners. greg

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t mean to be too critical, but this is totally incorrect.  I worked for an extra six months before returning to school so that I could afford to get my pilots license.  I had to stop flying while I was in school (even though my wife was working) because of cost. I have not started flying again because of the cost.  I don’t think anyone can lecture me on how it can be justified either.  I have a M.S. in Aeronautical Engineering simply because (well not only, but principally) I am an aviation fanatic (my wifes description).  I am also building a CH601HDS.  I love aviation, but my wife, like many others is not quite so infatuated.  With two kids, a house and a car, it gets hard to say no to something your SO wants so that you can go out and indulge an avocation.  I will fly again.  I do love flying.  The reason I do not fly is that it is too expensive.  I quit flying voluntarily.  I may have been legal, but I was not flying enough to feel that I was safe.  Maybe aviation is no more expensive now than it was in the ’70s, but it is too expensive none the less. Also, when people find out I have my license, they often want to talk about it.  Not everyone is positive, but most people are some- what interested.  Well, I guess that’s a little more than my $.02 worth, but I firmly believe that cost is a big problem for aviation for MANY people.   Jeff Bougher

I don’t mean to be critical but this is totally incorrect.  It reminds me once of a salesman when I was trying to buy a Bonanza, who told me I didn’t make enough money to own any kind of an airplane.  At the time I owned three!   I am a grievously underpaid University administrator.  Out Mechanical Engineering students are getting starting salaries greater than my current salary as a Professor.  I even took a leave of absence once back in the seventies and went to work for MacDonnell Douglas for a couple of years.  They paid me exactly as much every week as the University paid me every MONTH.   I put five kids through college.  That includes four PhD among them.   We have two cars and a nice home.  I own eight airplanes.  I am not rich, but I can afford airplanes.  I have owned airplanes, at least one, for over forty years.  The cost of flying is now, in many ways, less than it was when I started flying.   When I first started flying lessons, in the early fifties, dual in a Piper J-3 Cub cost me $6.00 an hour.  I made $0.50 an hour.  I had to work 20 hours to earn enough spendable money for an hour of dual!  That was a half a weeks pay.  ( 12 hours pay paid for the Cub, the other 8 hours paid my taxes on the total income. )   Nowadays, even as underpaid as I am, an hours dual in a C-172 would only cost me a bit over two hours work.  Flying is a LOT cheaper now than when it cost me $6.00 an hour for dual.   What has changed is our idea of what we "have to have."  It will cost you about $3000 today to get your private pilots license.  It cost you $3000 to get your private pilots license in 1985.  That isn’t bad.  I am willing to bet that this fellow has over $3000 in his house just in TV and Stereo equipment, not counting his computer!  I will bet he paid over $40,000 for automobiles, especially when he adds in the cost of the credit.   I won’t even guess what he values his house at!   Sure he can afford to fly.  He merely chooses to spend his money some other way.  That is fine.  You pays your money and you takes your choice!  Just don’t tell me that something is unaffordable when I see dozens of people every day affording it just fine who make less than you do.   It reminds me of the Doctor, who says "Aviation is too expensive" and then climbs into the big Mercedes and roars away. John

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Greg is absolutely right, in my opinion. There aren’t that many people who would be interested in flying their own airplane, even if it were easier and cheaper to do so. Face it, folks. As Greg Travis says, G.A. flying isn’t of interest to

very many people. In my opinion, it never will be. Getting the cost of G.A. flying down by somehow improving the economy of manufacturing scale and the cost of certification won’t change a thing, except the out-of-pocket costs to pursue our interests. Mike

I don’t mean to be too critical, but this is totally incorrect.  I worked for an extra six months before returning to school so that I could afford to get my pilots license.  I had to stop flying while I was in school (even though my wife was working) because of cost. I have not started flying again because of the cost.  I don’t think anyone can lecture me on how it can be justified either.  I have a M.S. in Aeronautical Engineering simply because (well not only, but principally) I am an aviation fanatic (my wifes description).  I am also building a CH601HDS.  I love aviation, but my wife, like many others is not quite so infatuated.  With two kids, a house and a car, it gets hard to say no to something your SO wants so that you can go out and indulge an avocation.  I will fly again.  I do love flying.  The reason I do not fly is that it is too expensive.  I quit flying voluntarily.  I may have been legal, but I was not flying enough to feel that I was safe.  Maybe aviation is no more expensive now than it was in the ’70s, but it is too expensive none the less. Also, when people find out I have my license, they often want to talk about it.  Not everyone is positive, but most people are some- what interested.  Well, I guess that’s a little more than my $.02 worth, but I firmly believe that cost is a big problem for aviation for MANY people.   Jeff Bougher

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(PJPerry1) writes: As far as the time required though,  its tough to find two or three hours a week when you, your instructor, and the plane are all free and the weather is good.  Especially since the winter has shortened the days to the point where most weekday flying has to be done at night. I’ have to check out those Maules. Pat P

It took me two and a half months to finally get my check ride after I had completed training.  First there a was problem scheduling the airplane because of maintenance and the annual.  Finally got the plane and the examiner scheduled on same weekend and the weather went to hell.  Next week, examiner was unavailable.  Then I had to go out of town for a couple of weeks.  Finally got another scheduled weekend and plane broke down the day before.  Another two more weeks of bad weather and a week with examiner out of town. I finally got everything scheduled again and the weather looked good, if you consider 98 degrees and 80% humidity good.  I had scheduled the airplane for the entire day so I went out several hours early to do some practice.  Guess what, the aritifical horizon was out of commision.  I was flying a Piper 180 which was the only one the FBO had and no one was even working on it.  I raised more hell than I would like to discuss here but got enough attention to get the mechanic to pull a unit from another plane and install in mine.  He finished just before I was scheduled to take my check ride.  Now I get a call from the examiner, her airplane was out of commision and she was at an airport across town.  The airport was one which I was not familar with and about 45 miles away.  Had to get my instructor to signoff on me going to the airport before I could leave.  My instructor was nowhere to be found.  Two hours later, I was able to get the chief instructor to sign me off to go take my check ride. I finally arrived at the other airport and found the examiner.  By this time, it was 3:30 in the afternoon, I was hot as hell, sweating like a hoarse, and wound tighter than a main spring.  Obviously, I was really ready to sit down with the examiner and take my check ride.  (NOT!)  Fortunately for me, Maybell Fletcher, a sixty plus instructor, examiner, and owner of Fletcher Aviation in Houston, understood my plight and took the time to give me time to settle down and give me a chance.  I actually passed to my great supprise.  Her final statement to me was "You now have a Licience to learn". The above was the final steps to getting my PI.  It followed over three years of bad instructors, bad airplanes and total frustration.  I had been through two schools, four instructors, and several airplanes. (Some of the airplanes were, in my opinion, not safe to be in the air.)  I had dropped out after about 25 hours of training.  After about a year my wife, who loves to fly too, bought me four hours of dual time for Christmas and another four for my birthday.  She then made some reference to short life expectancy if I didn’t make use of them.  I tried the new school with an attitude of pushing the instructors, pushing the school, what ever was necessary to get my ticket.  That was over 8 years ago. I realize that this was a long winded story but my point is this.  As much as I love to fly and wanted to get my PI, the process was not easy and most people would have given up and walked away.  Hell, I damn near did myself.  (Thank God for a wife who loves me and flying too.) The majority of people are not going to go through that process and spend the money just to get the opportunity to pay $65 per hour to rent a 30 year old Cessna 172.  Flying is just too damn expensive for the vast majority of people to even consider.  This is just one of the problems with GA today. (My daughters boyfriend just got his PI about a month ago.  It took him over 3 years and $3500 to get it.  The last four months were spent going through the same sort of problems I had trying to get his PI examination. I think the only motivation that drove him to keep at it was his goal to attend Embry Rittle next year and pursue a career as a pilot.   Nothing has changed in 8 years.  ) If GA is going to survive and thrive, this is one area that is going to have to change and change soon. Bob Reed, KIS Cruiser in progress…Oshkosn 2000 by Gosh.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually there is nothing sterile about the training period.  Some people look back on their training as being the most fun period in their flying careers. In addition its not necessary to drag out the PPL for even 12 months, much less 24.  Someone who has the money and can find two hours per week to fly should be able to get through it in 20 to 30 weeks. I take that back – training isn’t sterile.  I’ve enjoyed every lesson. As far as the time required though,  its tough to find two or three hours a week when you, your instructor, and the plane are all free and the weather is good.  Especially since the winter has shortened the days to the point where most weekday flying has to be done at night. I’ have to check out those Maules. Pat P

Yeah, some weeks are better than others, and it’s probably easier to get through in 30 weeks if you start in the spring.  I live in Texas where we have decent flying weather all year long, but days do get short in December.

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If a manufacturer offered a good airplane for 50-60K and included certification training with the purchase I think GA would explode. Pat P

One-third of that $$$ will buy you a GREAT ultralight!!!

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Actually there is nothing sterile about the training period.  Some people look back on their training as being the most fun period in their flying careers.   In addition its not necessary to drag out the PPL for even 12 months, much less 24.  Someone who has the money and can find two hours per week to fly should be able to get through it in 20 to 30 weeks.

I take that back – training isn’t sterile.  I’ve enjoyed every lesson.   As far as the time required though,  its tough to find two or three hours a week when you, your instructor, and the plane are all free and the weather is good.  Especially since the winter has shortened the days to the point where most weekday flying has to be done at night. I’ have to check out those Maules. Pat P

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Anyone interested in the opportunities GA is hit with two obstacles right from the start. Cost of the lessons and 12-24 months of sterile training before they can enjoy the true freedom of GA.

Actually there is nothing sterile about the training period.  Some people look back on their training as being the most fun period in their flying careers.   In addition its not necessary to drag out the PPL for even 12 months, much less 24.  Someone who has the money and can find two hours per week to fly should be able to get through it in 20 to 30 weeks. If a manufacturer offered a good airplane for 50-60K and included certification training with the purchase I think GA would explode. Pat P

I think Maule still offers a 4 place 160 hp enclosed cabin monoplane for $49k.   And I’m pretty sure American Champion has a line of Sports/Utility 2 seaters starting at about the same price, or maybe a little bit more. These are certificated, fly-em-home-from-the-factory airplanes, and pretty good ones at that.  Radios and sophisticated instrumentation add to the cost, of course.

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it cost $50,000. Well I am one of those bitching and they never asked me!  I estimate that I will spend over 70,000 on my homebuilt and 2000 hours.  I would quickly reconsider if the new Cessnas were selling for $50,000. PS:  The $20,000 would be spent on building a single place bi-plane just for fun. Bob Reed, KIS Cruiser in progress…Oshkosh 2000 by Gosh!

GEEZ….you’d give up a KIS to have a 172?  I wouldn’t give up my 2 seat RV6 for a 172 no matter how new or inexpensive it was…it’ll still be slow! I do like your idea of a single seat bipe, tho’. Jim Anglin 6+ yrs on the ol’ -6

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G.A. flying isn’t of interest to very many people. In my opinion, it never

will be. Getting the cost of G.A. flying down by somehow improving the economy of manufacturing scale and the cost of certification won’t change a thing, except the out-of-pocket costs to pursue our interests.

I don’t doubt your experiences Mike but I’d like to shed light on the the fact that my experience has been a complete oposite of yours.   I started taking lessons in May of 97 and have aquired about 40 hours of time.  By mentioning to friends and coworkers I’m taking lessons I have recieved about 10 requests for rides when I get my PPL.  One of my coworkers has joined me in the persuit of a PPL and has about 25 hours himself (he made it passed the solo stage and seems to be hooked!).  There is alot of interest in my area toward GA but what usually deters people from taking a closer look is the cost and the time.  I dont think there has been one person who didn’t ask me how much the lessons would cost.  By the time I get my PPL I will have $2500 invested in my ability to fly.  To most people thats too much just to get started.  I think thats what slows the growth of GA is the cost just to see if you will like it.  When I decided to persue a PPL I wasn’t sure I’d like flying.  The first airport I checked for lessons wanted me to take a 6 week ground school before I’d even see the inside of a plane. That was too much to invest without knowing if I was even interested.  I took my business to a smaller airport and talked to the owner/FBO/instructor/A&P (and only guy on the payroll) and he took me for a ride that day.  Thats when I realized I enjoyed flying.  If he also told me to look at a 6 week ground school right from the start I probably wouldn’t have taken the lessons. Anyone interested in the opportunities GA is hit with two obstacles right from the start. Cost of the lessons and 12-24 months of sterile training before they can enjoy the true freedom of GA. If a manufacturer offered a good airplane for 50-60K and included certification training with the purchase I think GA would explode. Pat P

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IMHO, the key to a thriving GA or Sport Aviation market and the corresponding large numbers of participants needed to sustain that market includes and economical (aka affordable) way to enter the hangar so to speak. When large numbers of new aircraft are built and sold this also supplies a large number of good airworthy used aircraft available. Because of the large numbers available these aircraft are also affordable. Look at the prices of good used aircraft today. A few years back you could purchase a great airplane, like a Stinson or Tri-Pacer for $3,000 TO $5,000. Today these same aircraft price out at as much as $30,000 and more. The average income compared to these costs (like $30,000 pickup trucks, housing, $1.30 per gallon mogas, Nike tennis shoes for $100 etc.) most sertainly hasn’t kept pace. What is required is affordable entry level aircraft, more specifically certified aircraft. For this to happen, new and more friendly federal regulations that recognize new technology in engines and airframe construction must be part of the venue. Flying schools, FBOs must have training aircraft that don’t cost $150,000 up front. Return on investment is necessary and at these prices it’s very hard to get. Sport aviation and home building in specific is not the ticket for every pilot and not all wannabe pilots are wealthy. The demise of adequate facilities has only started, because of supply and demand. It’s difficult for a governmental group, city council etc. to place resources (hard to get financial resources) into a facility that used to be lined with private aircraft and now is very sparsely populated. The Young Eagles program, is a good start, but it was too late in coming, I’m afraid. You used to see lots of airport kids hanging around, but not anymore. We must have affordable entry level aircraft for training, a healthy new market that creates a healthy and affordable used market and the efforts of those of us that see value in building our own. The idea of airline passenger business types converting isn’t bad, but what happened is that Cessna and Piper placed a great deal of emphasis on such a market and when business moved into a survival mode it was and still is cheaper for most businesses to fly their staff on commercial airliners than to own and operate an aircraft. For example, I flew to Oshkosh last year. I believe the ticket cost $179 round trip from Seattle to Chicago and another few bucks to take the bus from Chicago to Oshkosh. I couldn’t fly my own aircraft round trip for anywhere near that cost. Those of us infected with the flying virus, will find a way to fly, if possible. But remember, the average wage in say the Seattle area is $32,000. That’s average meaning there are a lot of folks below that being brought up on the mathimatical scale by those much higher. If you have a family of 4, two working with a $64,000 income. Take federal taxes out at 20-percent and that leaves approximately $50,000.  Just over $4,000 per month. Take out a $900 house payment, two reasonable car payments at say $550 total, groceries and misc household thing like you would buy at the grocery store $800, utilities $225, car insurance including two teens on the policy $200, gas for cars $120, retirement contribution for two $200,  help with college tuition $200,  - total $3190. Leaving $810 for clothing, misc. kid expenses, savings, vacations, entertainment, credit cards etc. Tough to support an airplane on such an income. Tough to build and/or  purchase an airplane on such an income. It realy is all economics. Vernon Barr

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Greg is absolutely right, in my opinion. There aren’t that many people who would be interested in flying their own airplane, even if it were easier and cheaper to do so. Almost everyone whom I have more than a first-contact cursory acquaintance with, knows that I fly. In the 5-plus years that I have been flying, there has only been one individual who asked for a ride, and then went on to get his own pilot’s license. There have been only a couple of people who have even expressed a mild interest in experiencing flying, and only two of these folks have taken a ride, with me or with someone else. Heck, my own wife isn’t interested in G.A. flying, though she does encourage my interest, and she will ride with me if we happen to be going somewhere she wants to go. Same goes for my young-adult son. Face it, folks. As Greg Travis says, G.A. flying isn’t of interest to very many people. In my opinion, it never will be. Getting the cost of G.A. flying down by somehow improving the economy of manufacturing scale and the cost of certification won’t change a thing, except the out-of-pocket costs to pursue our interests. Mike

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of us infected with the flying virus, will find a way to fly, if possible. But remember, the average wage in say the Seattle area is $32,000. That’s average meaning there are a lot of folks below that being brought up on the mathimatical scale by those much higher. If you have a family of 4, two working with a $64,000 income. Take federal taxes out at 20-percent and that leaves approximately $50,000.  Just over $4,000 per month. Take out a $900 house payment, two reasonable car payments at say $550 total, groceries and misc household thing like you would buy at the grocery store $800, utilities $225, car insurance including two teens on the policy $200, gas for cars $120, retirement contribution for two $200,  help with college tuition $200,  - total $3190. Leaving $810 for clothing, misc. kid expenses, savings, vacations, entertainment, credit cards etc. Tough to support an airplane on such an income. Tough to build and/or  purchase an airplane on such an income. It realy is all economics.

I really, really, don’t agree.  Piston general aviation has NEVER, not even in the boom years, been "affordable" to an average family like the one you describe. My 1979 C-172, built during one of the greatest years in GA production, cost $36,000 brand-new.  The average teacher’s salary in the same year was about $15,000/yr.  Thus a 172 cost 2 1/2 years worth of salary. Today’s average teacher salary is $37,000 which means that a comparable plane to my 172 should go for around $90,000.  A new 172 today is quite a bit more than that ($130,000) but it’s not comparable to my old 172 (it has fuel injection, metal panel, much better radios and interior, dual vacuum, etc.).  A comparable plane might be something like a Maule.  Gee, guess what?  For $90,000 you can buy a brand-new Maule and still have a wad of cash left over. I don’t think that bringing the cost of certified airplanes down will do much, if anything, to help stimulate GA’s sales.  Cessna has done a LOT of research on the subject and, basically, what they found is that the people who bitch and moan about a new 172 costing $130,000 wouldn’t buy it even if it cost $50,000. Flying, and being a pilot, is not a commodity activity.  In fact, it would be terrible if it were (talk about aluminum raining from the sky).  Flying demands a very special personality type and one that’s, frankly, just not found in large numbers in the great bleating herd. And, as I’ve said before, piston GA doesn’t need mom-and-pop suburbia to survive.  6,000 new piston airplanes a year (roughly 10x today’s numbers) would result in a robust piston GA industry.  Let’s assume that 4000 of those airplanes remained in the United States and 2000 went to the other five billion inhabitants of the planet. 4000 airplanes a year is just one per 67,500 people in this country.  That’s a about ten airplanes a year for a cities the size of Boston, MA or San Francisco, CA.  In my city, a medium-sized college town, the local dealership (there isn’t one) needs to sell only ONE plane a year. How many people in each of those cities would consider an airplane "pretty cheap" if it cost roughly 1/2 a year’s income?  After all, that’s about what most people spend on their new cars. I’m just guessing but I’ll bet there are more than 10 people in Boston who make more than $400,000 a year. greg

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<<<< Many accurate on the mark comments snipped I have read all the comments posted on this subject and find a great deal of truth in each and every one.  I think the demise of GA could be compared to the grossly overweight homebuilt airplane.  It wasn’t a 500# lead weight added by the builder that makes the homebuilt overweight, it’s 500 little things each weighing a few ounces that caused the condition.  The demise of GA over the last 20+ years can be attributed to many little problems put together.  It kinda sneaked in while we had our backs turned or we just choose to accept that there was nothing we could do about them. The return to a healthy GA is not going to be easy.  We have to tackle each of the issues and come up with some innovative solutions.  Progress is being made but I am very fearful that it is only slowing the decline and not reversing it.  The single biggest issue today for GA is finding a way to stop the ever increasing cost of flying.  Think about it, just how many people can afford and/ or willing  to rent a 20-30 year old airplane (some in very questionable condition) for between $50-$100 and hour.  Will the pilot who can only rent on occasion maintain their skills or will they scare the crap out of themselves and drop out of flying.  I know a lot of pilots who just don’t feel they can afford to fly enough to stay current and proficient. Plane owership is no bargain either with hangar fees of $150-250 per month, $1200-1500 for insurance, annual inspections of $1500-$2500+ and hourly costs of $35-55 per hour(conservative estimate including fuel).  That does’nt even count the cost of purchasing the airplane.  All the above also assumes that you already have your ticket which can run form $2500-3500+ for a private and an equal or greater amount for instrument.  (And WE wonder why someone would spend $15,000 for a bass boat and go fishing!) Damn, this is giving me cold chills.  If my wife happens to see the above I might get grounded too!  In fact, it even gives me second thoughts but they go away when I think about the alternative.  Flying is either a passion or a passing fancy.  If it’s a passing fancy, the cost is way too high.  If it’s a passion, no cost (in terms of dollars) is too high.  I WILL FLY!  The only question is what and how but I Will Fly! Bob Reed, KIS Cruiser in progress…Oshkosh 2000 by Gosh!

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I started taking flying lessons in May of this year.  Prior to that I had very little exposure to general aviation or economic state of the general aviation industry.  After a few lessons and some discusions with my instructor and others at the local airport I started to realize that GA was on the edge of a complete collapse (If not already in one).  I found some promise when I learned of some of the GA revitalization efforts that were underway such as the NASA-GAP program and some of the "learn to fly" promotional programs put on by EAA and other aviation organizations. I would like to hear some opinions from some of the more experienced aviators – where do they think things will be for GA in 10 years?  Will the flight line at the local airport still look like a scene from a WWII documentary?  Should I cherish the few hours of training I can get in a ‘47 PA-17 and be happy I got that much?  Will I be telling my grandchildren about the old day when you could fly a small plane from a small airport? Will GA survive or is this all just smoke and mirrors?

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I would like to hear some opinions from some of the more experienced aviators – where do they think things will be for GA in 10 years?  Will the flight line at the local airport still look like a scene from a WWII documentary?  Should I cherish the few hours of training I can get in a ‘47 PA-17 and be happy I got that much?  Will I be telling my grandchildren about the old day when you could fly a small plane from a small airport? Will GA survive or is this all just smoke and mirrors?

No one can predict the future but there are some promising signs for GA.  From the commercial side, the Cessna 172 is once again being manufactured, albiet at a big price.  Luscombe is apparently heading back into production.  There are several new engines heading for production or in development and the homebuilt world has many varieties of engines to choose from. If you look at the homebuilt industry, aviation is BOOMING.  To call it a growth industry is making an understatement. As far as the commercial side of aviation goes, to me it all boils down to "profitablility".  Little airplanes just don’t make the manufacturers enough money.  So they don’t make many of them and those they do make cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Not surprisingly, not many can afford them.  But the interest in flying is definately there and Experimental Aviation Association is trying to introduce children to aviation through the young eagles program so that some of them turn skyward as they grow older and consider flying for a career. That’s the right thing to do, and the more the better.  Children must be introduced to flying or GA as we know it will vanish. Corky Scott

Response:

If you look at the homebuilt industry, aviation is BOOMING.  To call it a growth industry is making an understatement. As far as the commercial side of aviation goes, to me it all boils down to "profitablility".  Little airplanes just don’t make the manufacturers enough money.  So they don’t make many of them and those they do make cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Not surprisingly, not many can afford them.

Corky makes some good points.  I would like to add a few.  First, the experimental movement has been a TREMENDOUS benefit to "small plane" GA over the past few decades.  I don’t know what would have happened had it not been there. But I do believe it’s a two way street.  Without certified aircraft, and a healthy infrastructure of FBOs, maintenance facilities, airports, etc.  homebuilders wouldn’t have anywhere to fly from. Experimental aviation, by and large, needs small, certified, GA as well. I don’t agree that it’s the cost of the planes, or their profitability, that precipitated the collapse of piston GA.  As far as I can see, new planes aren’t a whole lot more expensive today than they were, say, thirty years ago.  It’s actually amazing to me how adaptable the airframe manufacturers have been in this regard.  When I look at the volumes produced in 1978 to today I wonder why a new Skyhawk doesn’t cost a cool million. No, something else is responsible for the collapse.  No one in or out of the industry seems to really know what it was but something in the early eighties precipitated the mother of all market crashes.  No one saw it coming, no one thought it would last this long.  Nobody knows why. Sure, there are aggravating factors.  Liability is one but it’s not even close to being the root cause (despite what the manufacturers want you to think). Cost might be another but again, it’s not sufficient to explain how we went from producing ~18,000 planes in 1978 to ~500 in 1996. That too may be an aggravating factor – a lot in the industry acknowledge that the industry simply got too greedy in the late 1970s and overproduced, thus poisoning the well. But I think that a drastic change in american society took place in the early 1980s and that’s what has all but killed piston GA.  I don’t know exactly what it was either (although I have some ideas, such as the elimination of leisure time). There are positive signs in the winds these days.  The industry didn’t really admit or understand what was going on all through the mid and late 1980s. They thought it was just like the recession in the early 1970s, only a little longer and a little deeper.  In the early 1990s, however, people got scared.  Virtually everyone in the industry agrees that 1992-3 were the darkest, meanest, scariest years around.  That was rock-bottom. The past three-four years have all seen growth.  Agonizingly small growth but growth nonethless.  There is quite a lot to be hopeful for, especially with Cessna and their marketing juggernaut back in the game (Cessna has always understood how to sell airplanes like no other company). Cessna’s success is EVERYONE’S success no matter if you work at Piper, Mooney, Beech, etc. And, hopefully, we can make irrelevant whatever caused the collapse of the 1980s by appealing to and developing new markets.  There is a lot of growing resentment among business travellers about outrageous airline ticket prices, rude service, etc.  Target them as a whole new breed of "businessman pilot."  Go after that segment of the population that represents more than half of all people and that, to now, has been all but totally ignored by the aviation industry: Women.  Streamline and regularize the training and licensing procedure.  Take out the anxiety about learning how to learn how to fly: Cessna will do this with their Pilot Centers. And it doesn’t take much to produce a BOOM.  All the salesmen have to do is convince ONE person out of every ~75,000 to buy a new plane each year and we’re in hog heaven. greg

Response:

If you look at the homebuilt industry, aviation is BOOMING.  To call it a growth industry is making an understatement.

This is true.  Here in Salt Lake, the members of EAA chapter 23 currently have about 60 aircraft under construction. As far as the commercial side of aviation goes, to me it all boils down to "profitablility".  Little airplanes just don’t make the manufacturers enough money.  So they don’t make many of them and those they do make cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Not surprisingly, not many can afford them.

This, IMHO, is a key issue for the survival of GA.  Without "affordable" aircraft, our numbers will continue to dwindle.  I took my very first flying lessons with my high school club.  I just couldn’t afford to continue lessons/ flying after that. But I do believe it’s a two way street.  Without certified aircraft, and a healthy infrastructure of FBOs, maintenance facilities, airports, etc.  homebuilders wouldn’t have anywhere to fly from. Experimental aviation, by and large, needs small, certified, GA as well.

Absolutely correct. I don’t agree that it’s the cost of the planes, or their profitability, that precipitated the collapse of piston GA.  As far as I can see, new planes aren’t a whole lot more expensive today than they were, say, thirty years ago.  It’s actually amazing to me how adaptable the airframe manufacturers have been in this regard.  When I look at the volumes produced in 1978 to today I wonder why a new Skyhawk doesn’t cost a cool million.

I disagree with you on this, Greg.  I look at a Lexus SC400, a Mercedes SL300 or a BMW735 and I see a complex, high tech piece of machinery for a fairly reasonable amount.  I feel that a/c companies could learn a lot from the automobile industry and apply that in building a reasonable, modern plane.  Look at the Katana or the CH-2000 as examples of this. (some good stuff snipped) That too may be an aggravating factor – a lot in the industry acknowledge that the industry simply got too greedy in the late 1970s and overproduced, thus poisoning the well.

Not many of us would argue this. But I think that a drastic change in american society took place in the early 1980s and that’s what has all but killed piston GA.  I don’t know exactly what it was either (although I have some ideas, such as the elimination of leisure time).

I agree.  Everyone seems to be so pressed for time nowadays.  That’s why we need to fly everywhere.  It saves us time! (More good stuff snipped) And, hopefully, we can make irrelevant whatever caused the collapse of the 1980s by appealing to and developing new markets.  There is a lot of growing resentment among business travellers about outrageous airline ticket prices, rude service, etc.  Target them as a whole new breed of "businessman pilot."  Go after that segment of the population that represents more than half of all people and that, to now, has been all but totally ignored by the aviation industry: Women.  Streamline and regularize the training and licensing procedure.  Take out the anxiety about learning how to learn how to fly: Cessna will do this with their Pilot Centers.

Yes.  The "businessman pilot" and women could represent the next large growth segment for GA. greg (and Corky)

Ric Lee

Response:

Greg and the rest, Everything you folks have said have made very good sense.  But we all skate around a couple of issues here. First, IMHO, has anyone else seemed to notice that the decline in GA sales, new & used, coincided quite nicely with the elimination of the Investment Tax Credit??  Not to mention the IRS crackdown of aviation for business use (unless, of course, that business was a Fortune 1000 size company)?  Don’t kid yourselves folks.  I farm for a living with land spread out over 125 miles.  I looked seriously at buying a used Cherokee 180 a few years ago (in the mid $60K range) that would have been used about 80% for business.  It just wasn’t economically feasible.  So, I asked my accountant to refigure it the was the tax code was in 1980.  Guess what, it became not only feasible, but a smart business decision. Second, and more controversial, is the impression other people have of aircraft owners.  It used to be common when you found out a neighbor owned an airplane that most everyone thought it was really neat.  Now, the first thing you hear is something to the effect of "Must be nice to be so rich you can afford an airplane, I have more important things to do with MY money, like buy groceries" and it comes with loathing and jealousy just dripping off the words.  I’m sorry, but that’s what I hear more often than not. Our culture has been divided (at least mentally) into the have’s and have-not’s.  And it’s not how much money you do or don’t have.  These same folks that have $30K pickup and a $26K car for the wife are the ones that view themselves as the have-not’s.  Dump the $30K truck, buy a $3,500 one, and use the difference to buy a clean Cessna 150, Tomahawk, Cherokee 140, or even build an RV or LongEZ.  But, in their mind, airplanes are toys for the well off, they can’t afford it, so nobody else should either.  This frame of mind, as much as any other, has slowed demand for GA planes. Maybe I’m way off base, I don’t know.  I’ve been flying since ‘83, and have a brother who is chief pilot for a corporation that flies KingAir 200’s, a Citation, Hughes 300, and a Hughes 500.  It seems to me that when someone hears about an operation like this, more often than not, the attitude is "What do they need all those things for??  It’s not fair.  They shouldn’t have them"  Never mind that they are based in Central KS and have business interests all over the country.  The flight department is very busy. Oh well, that’s my rant for the night.  Pasture Dave, is this considered a confession??  I’m just more than a little tired of the petty jealousy and attitudes of "I can’t afford it so you shouldn’t be able to do it". Anybody that would care to comment on this train of thought, jump right in because I think it’s at least as if not more important than the actual dollars and cents argument. John Stricker — why I had to put it in.  If one of you real humans wants to contact me: "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you look at the homebuilt industry, aviation is BOOMING.  To call it a growth industry is making an understatement. As far as the commercial side of aviation goes, to me it all boils down to "profitablility".  Little airplanes just don’t make the manufacturers enough money.  So they don’t make many of them and those they do make cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Not surprisingly, not many can afford them. Corky makes some good points.  I would like to add a few.  First, the experimental movement has been a TREMENDOUS benefit to "small plane" GA over the past few decades.  I don’t know what would have happened had it not been there. But I do believe it’s a two way street.  Without certified aircraft, and a healthy infrastructure of FBOs, maintenance facilities, airports, etc.  homebuilders wouldn’t have anywhere to fly from. Experimental aviation, by and large, needs small, certified, GA as well. I don’t agree that it’s the cost of the planes, or their profitability, that precipitated the collapse of piston GA.  As far as I can see, new planes aren’t a whole lot more expensive today than they were, say, thirty years ago.  It’s actually amazing to me how adaptable the airframe manufacturers have been in this regard.  When I look at the volumes produced in 1978 to today I wonder why a new Skyhawk doesn’t cost a cool million. No, something else is responsible for the collapse.  No one in or out of the industry seems to really know what it was but something in the early eighties precipitated the mother of all market crashes.  No one saw it coming, no one thought it would last this long.  Nobody knows why. Sure, there are aggravating factors.  Liability is one but it’s not even close to being the root cause (despite what the manufacturers want you to think). Cost might be another but again, it’s not sufficient to explain how we went from producing ~18,000 planes in 1978 to ~500 in 1996. That too may be an aggravating factor – a lot in the industry acknowledge that the industry simply got too greedy in the late 1970s and overproduced, thus poisoning the well. But I think that a drastic change in american society took place in the early 1980s and that’s what has all but killed piston GA.  I don’t know exactly what it was either (although I have some ideas, such as the elimination of leisure time). There are positive signs in the winds these days.  The industry didn’t really admit or understand what was going on all through the mid and late 1980s. They thought it was just like the recession in the early 1970s, only a little longer and a little deeper.  In the early 1990s, however, people got scared.  Virtually everyone in the industry agrees that 1992-3 were the darkest, meanest, scariest years around.  That was rock-bottom. The past three-four years have all seen growth.  Agonizingly small growth but growth nonethless.  There is quite a lot to be hopeful for, especially with Cessna and their marketing juggernaut back in the game (Cessna has always understood how to sell airplanes like no other company). Cessna’s success is EVERYONE’S success no matter if you work at Piper, Mooney, Beech, etc. And, hopefully, we can make irrelevant whatever caused the collapse of the 1980s by appealing to and developing new markets.  There is a lot of growing resentment among business travellers about outrageous airline ticket prices, rude service, etc.  Target them as a whole new breed of "businessman pilot."  Go after that segment of the population that represents more than half of all people and that, to now, has been all but totally ignored by the aviation industry: Women.  Streamline and regularize the training and licensing procedure.  Take out the anxiety about learning how to learn how to fly: Cessna will do this with their Pilot Centers. And it doesn’t take much to produce a BOOM.  All the salesmen have to do is convince ONE person out of every ~75,000 to buy a new plane each year and we’re in hog heaven. greg

Response: