Question:

On the 150 we sold we also made a profit on the s&h of $1.30 per item. You must have really stiffed your buyers to make $1.30 profit on s/h. Very few even cover all their costs on s/h. What’s the trick?  Maybe we can all learn something.  (Or is it cause you watch Oprah while packaging and / or have your neighbor drop them off at the PO?)

The trick is never sell anything you can’t hold out at arms length. It is quite easy to charge 3x your shipping costs for items which weigh only a few ounces and you will rarely hear a buyer complain.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim Most of these are Dutch and are routinely bought in quantity. Many low buy it now listings also result in an "I’ll take them all" sale. It is exceptionally rare that our actual total price per transaction is less than twenty dollars. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com According to your post, "You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7." Quantity? "I’ll take them all"? According to your theory, it is only worth the effort if you sell more than 36,000. Are you trying to tell me that you are selling 36,000 medical books in a year? Or 100 per day? Help me understand how your theory does not apply to your sales? You regularly have books listed under $20.00. According to your theory, isn’t this a waste of your time? Tim

I suspect if you went by Don’s house you would see smoke coming out of every windows One of the best of the smoke blowers

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim Most of these are Dutch and are routinely bought in quantity. Many low buy it now listings also result in an "I’ll take them all" sale. It is exceptionally rare that our actual total price per transaction is less than twenty dollars. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

According to your post, "You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7." Quantity? "I’ll take them all"? According to your theory, it is only worth the effort if you sell more than 36,000. Are you trying to tell me that you are selling 36,000 medical books in a year? Or 100 per day? Help me understand how your theory does not apply to your sales? You regularly have books listed under $20.00. According to your theory, isn’t this a waste of your time? Tim

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

Here there be monsters. Take all theories and "advice" offered here with a grain of salt. Ed

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously? It was a flip, off-the-cuff example. The "real math" shows a different answer, true, but I don’t think that invalidates my point.

OK, Dan.

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously?

By watching  a ot of Oprah.

Response:

On the 150 we sold we also made a profit on the s&h of $1.30 per item.

You must have really stiffed your buyers to make $1.30 profit on s/h.   Very few even cover all their costs on s/h. What’s the trick?  Maybe we can all learn something.  (Or is it cause you watch Oprah while packaging and / or have your neighbor drop them off at the PO?)

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously?

It was a flip, off-the-cuff example. The "real math" shows a different answer, true, but I don’t think that invalidates my point. — Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim

Most of these are Dutch and are routinely bought in quantity. Many low buy it now listings also result in an "I’ll take them all" sale. It is exceptionally rare that our actual total price per transaction is less than twenty dollars. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Don,     How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?     You should practice what you preach. Tim

Response:

There’s elements of truth to his ideas, but he takes them to ridiculous extremes. His 30:1 ratio is one of them — is this to say that if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise.

I agree that there are elements of truth to his ideas, but the only way one can do it is to do what he does … which is dumpster dive for garbage that someone may or may not buy.  If they don’t, it goes back in the dumpster and no one cares. It would be wonderful to buy things for $1 and sell them for $30 if one could do it a lot, but one would only make $29 per transaction.  If one buys something for $100 and sells for $200, it’s only 2:1, but $100 per transaction.  I don’t know anyone who wants to throw $71 away. Nonetheless, the reason to KF him is not because he’s off the wall —   it’s because he’s become a bot without an original idea in years. It’s just tiresome to read the same stuff and see the same links month in and month out.

Whatever the reason, KF him and be done.

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

When you do find your niche, you will realize that having a viriety of related items with different profit margins will help you out in the long run.  I can give you an example. I have a favourite seller that I purchase photo and video related equipment from regularily.  He lists UV filters specific to several popular cameras. The filters, of course, are standard sizes, but he lists them with auction titles specific to popular models they fit.  He makes about 4 bucks per UV filter. This seller also has some very nice wide angle lenses that have a feature that makes them somewhat better than the standard fare found on Ebay specific to those "popular models".  He makes about $25.00 per wide angle lense.  His competitors sell an inferior product at a slightly lower price and make about $45.00 per lense.  -  He also sells a nice chamois that he makes about $3.50 on… and he has after market zoom and focus rings that he makes about $75.00 … and a couple of tripods that he makes $60.00 or so on etc etc etc etc. He gets customers by offering something they absolutely need at a good price and by shipping very quickly.  He then gains return customers because he is an attentive seller.  He has one single product in his line that is far superior to that sold by his competitors, and he sells it for a smaller profit, but at just a slightly higher price than his competitors…, so he gains some of their customers.  - Return customers and occasionally gaining a little market share from your competitors is the secret to success, IMHO. Carving out a piece of the market for yourself is more than just trying to make $9.00 or $19.63 or whatever on every item.  In fact, you can have items that you take a loss on that will help you gain sales of your higher priced items.  I think it is smart to find a range of products that are specific to something you know a lot about and that interests you so that you can give accurate descriptions quickly, and so you can answer questions quickly etc. These folks saying that photos should take hours to set up are exaggerating, I think.  If you know a lot about an item, and if you can figure out your camera and a little bit about lighting… it shouldn’t take more than a few minutes to photograph and dump your memory stick to your computer.  Along that same thought – If you know a lot about your items and their purpose, it shouldn’t really take all that long to describe those items. – And further along that same thought:  If you find a range of products and start to carve out some market share, there are tools available to make you more productive with your listings.  Practice makes perfect.  The more you sell, the easier it gets.  the easier it gets, the less time you spend doing it.  The less time you spend doing it, the greater the dollars per hour – so you can choose to put in more hours if you want more money or you can "leave well enough alone" with the thought that you are now making a very nice hourly wage and not having to spend every waking minute trying to make a buck.

Response:

Don,    How do you explain all your buy it now listings under $10.00? Do you not follow your own mantra?    You should practice what you preach. Tim

He doesn’t.  He just conveniently ignores the question whenever it comes up. Bigolhomo

Response:

We listed 400 items at $2.99 each minimum bid 2 months ago and sold 150 of them from $2.99 to high of $18. Most sold at $2.99 – $3.99. We paid .33 cents per item. On the 150 we sold we also made a profit on the s&h of $1.30 per item. Some people paid by Paypal some paid by mail. We had 1 picture we had to to for each auction with no image fixing needed since the camera did a good job. We had 3 deadbeats and filed unpaid bidder and got the refund. We were very happy with this outcome. My friend listed 2 weeks later similiar stuff but with a minimum bid of $6.99 and sold about 50 of 200 listed. He did better than me when you looked at the profit but i would say if your P&L shows profit or you can just sell off dead items then go for it!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input. When you do find your niche, you will realize that having a viriety of related items with different profit margins will help you out in the long run.  I can give you an example. I have a favourite seller that I purchase photo and video related equipment from regularily.  He lists UV filters specific to several popular cameras. The filters, of course, are standard sizes, but he lists them with auction titles specific to popular models they fit.  He makes about 4 bucks per UV filter. This seller also has some very nice wide angle lenses that have a feature that makes them somewhat better than the standard fare found on Ebay specific to those "popular models".  He makes about $25.00 per wide angle lense.  His competitors sell an inferior product at a slightly lower price and make about $45.00 per lense.  -  He also sells a nice chamois that he makes about $3.50 on… and he has after market zoom and focus rings that he makes about $75.00 … and a couple of tripods that he makes $60.00 or so on etc etc etc etc. He gets customers by offering something they absolutely need at a good price and by shipping very quickly.  He then gains return customers because he is an attentive seller.  He has one single product in his line that is far superior to that sold by his competitors, and he sells it for a smaller profit, but at just a slightly higher price than his competitors…, so he gains some of their customers.  - Return customers and occasionally gaining a little market share from your competitors is the secret to success, IMHO. Carving out a piece of the market for yourself is more than just trying to make $9.00 or $19.63 or whatever on every item.  In fact, you can have items that you take a loss on that will help you gain sales of your higher priced items.  I think it is smart to find a range of products that are specific to something you know a lot about and that interests you so that you can give accurate descriptions quickly, and so you can answer questions quickly etc. These folks saying that photos should take hours to set up are exaggerating, I think.  If you know a lot about an item, and if you can figure out your camera and a little bit about lighting… it shouldn’t take more than a few minutes to photograph and dump your memory stick to your computer.  Along that same thought – If you know a lot about your items and their purpose, it shouldn’t really take all that long to describe those items. – And further along that same thought:  If you find a range of products and start to carve out some market share, there are tools available to make you more productive with your listings.  Practice makes perfect.  The more you sell, the easier it gets.  the easier it gets, the less time you spend doing it.  The less time you spend doing it, the greater the dollars per hour – so you can choose to put in more hours if you want more money or you can "leave well enough alone" with the thought that you are now making a very nice hourly wage and not having to spend every waking minute trying to make a buck.

Response:

I think the amount was $19.63.  Whether it’s worth it or not depends on what you are trying to do.  I personally disagree with that idea and have killfiled the guy who said it.  His ideas are far too off the wall for me to bother reading anymore.

There’s elements of truth to his ideas, but he takes them to ridiculous extremes. His 30:1 ratio is one of them — is this to say that if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. Nonetheless, the reason to KF him is not because he’s off the wall —   it’s because he’s become a bot without an original idea in years. It’s just tiresome to read the same stuff and see the same links month in and month out. — Bob

Response:

Bob Flaminio: I think the amount was $19.63.  Whether it’s worth it or not depends on what you are trying to do.  I personally disagree with that idea and have killfiled the guy who said it.  His ideas are far too off the wall for me to bother reading anymore. There’s elements of truth to his ideas, but he takes them to ridiculous extremes. His 30:1 ratio is one of them — is this to say that if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise.

Actually it would be closer to $68 in your pocket (off the top of my head) if it is a PayPal sale. (not including your prorated water bill, the 2 hours you spent getting the photo just right and the time it took you to lick the stamps, Don’s website will explain the importance of those things Don came up with a business model that works well for what he sells and assumes that it will work for anyone. There are no magic ratios or minimum sales, it is about how much money you make vs. the amount of time & money you put into it. Having said that… I personally no longer sell anything on ebay for less than $10-15 because I have to put up with too much bullshit in proportion to the amount of fees I pay at that level; in other words, it isn’t worth it. — Mac Cool

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? It’s not worth it if you have to take a picture of every item. You could spend half an hour on the picture (or more,) plus ten minutes describing and listing (more if you have to research,) time to reply to questions, pack, drive to the PO, etc. Even if you invest only an hour’s work, you will probably make less than minimum wage after fees. Try Wendy’s instead! On the other hand, if you sell the same things over and over with the same picture and description, and need only to click through "sell similar" once a week, it is more plausible. You may make $5.00 for twenty minutes of work and average $15 an hour. This beats fast food or retail for a part time job. With a low cost of living, it can even make a full time wage. mjoann

It might even approach a unity Levenworth Ratio. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise. If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously? Lumpy — Here ya’ go! http://www.digitalcartography.com/Cumulus19FULL.mp3

At best, they might be able to keep $49. You would have to reliably and consistently repeat this three times a day 24/7 for a marginal income. With no employees. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

 he’s become a bot without an original idea in years. It’s just tiresome to read the same stuff and see the same links month in and month out. — Bob

As long as the newbees keep showing up and asking the same questions month in and month out, I think it’s kinda nice to have somebody willing to be The Bot and answere all those boring questions.   I say :  Thanks Don

Response:

…if I buy an item for $100 and sell it for $200, I’ve wasted my time? $100 in my pockets says otherwise.

If you buy something for $100 and sell it for $200, how in the world do you figure that you end up with $100 in your pocket? Seriously? Lumpy — Here ya’ go! http://www.digitalcartography.com/Cumulus19FULL.mp3

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice?

It’s not worth it if you have to take a picture of every item. You could spend half an hour on the picture (or more,) plus ten minutes describing and listing (more if you have to research,) time to reply to questions, pack, drive to the PO, etc. Even if you invest only an hour’s work, you will probably make less than minimum wage after fees. Try Wendy’s instead! On the other hand, if you sell the same things over and over with the same picture and description, and need only to click through "sell similar" once a week, it is more plausible. You may make $5.00 for twenty minutes of work and average $15 an hour. This beats fast food or retail for a part time job. With a low cost of living, it can even make a full time wage. mjoann

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

I think the amount was $19.63.  Whether it’s worth it or not depends on what you are trying to do.  I personally disagree with that idea and have killfiled the guy who said it.  His ideas are far too off the wall for me to bother reading anymore. This is my thinking:  if you are making money and having a good or decent time doing it, go for it.  It doesn’t matter if you are making $1 on each item or $100.  It’s up to you to decide how much you need to make and go to it.  You may not get rich doing it, but you’ll be fine.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input. http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Another reason for the magic $19.73 threshold — There is virtuallly no bitching over shipping charges or buyer nickel and diming above this level, and great heaping bunches below. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

Response:

I remember reading here a long time ago someone’s theory about how if you don’t make at least $9.00 on an item it’s not worth the time/money. I sell things for less and I think of this all the time – is the original poster here or does anyone remember what I am talking about? BTW – I buy for $1.00 and sell between $5 and $9.99 usually. I thought this was good, I just have to sell alot and since the items are all different I do have to photograph and describe each and every item. Any input on this practice? I am doing pretty well so far and am trying to figure out my niche in ebay-land. So I appreciate the input.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ebaysell.pdf and related files at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp Your figures are ludicrous. Always aim for a 30:1 sell/buy ratio and a minimum selling price of $19.63. A $9 sale is unlikely to let you keep $2 after fully burdened accounting (don’t forget your pro rated water bill, among many others). You’d have to consistently and reliably repeat this sale 36,000 times per year for a decent wage. Or 100 sales per day 24/7. With OUT any employees, of course. Your Leavenworth Ratio is waaaay less than unity. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

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Question:

I control all the money. amy

Response:

OK, since you’ve asked twice now, I’ll post.  I opened an account surreptitiously about six months ago. I earn the money, and my wife pays all the bills.  We’re both quite frugal, and agree on most financial issues.  We abhor debt, and have none other than our house.  She has 100% control over the finances, so we have had occasional spats about where the money should go.  They’re not big arguments, but generally I save my money for large purchases (computer parts, etc.), while she spends it on comic books and restaurants.  At the end of the year, I’d like to take the $1000 she spent on comics and food, and go buy a 21" monitor!  But she doesn’t think it’s a *need*, so I don’t get it.  Comic books, at $50 a month, fall below the threshold of scrutiny, and "aren’t a big deal, because it’s only $50". That’s the extent of our money squabbles.  But it’s not the reason for my opening an account, and it’s not a major problem between us.  For other reasons, our marriage has been particularly rocky for the past year, and I’ve realized that I don’t have any control over what happens to me in the event of a failure.  What if I had to go put a deposit on an apartment somewhere?  Or buy a car in my own name after she leaves me hanging?  Or, how would I pay for a lawyer if I had to act at some point? These are all unfortunate questions for a married man to entertain. Nevertheless, the deed is done; both the above questions and hiding the money.  When I got a raise this year, I changed my auto-deposit to put most of the increase in my new account, and I told my wife that my raise was less than it actually was.  It was my first outright lie in six years of married life.  I don’t have much in there yet, but it’s growing, and I feel more secure. The problem comes when I try to spend it.  I can’t divulge that I’ve taken a share off the top.  So no matter what, it’s only to use for myself if an emergency happens.  Maybe if we’re still together in 25 years, I’ll admit it and show it to her, and we’ll take a trip.  Or buy a Winnebego? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -mhei…@hearst.com (matt heimer) wrote in message <news:ae77d747.0303220642.675d21f0@posting.google.com>… > Hi. I’m a magazine writer, and recently married. I’m working on an > article for Good Housekeeping, a national women’s magazine, about > financial issues that spouses keep secret from one another. > I’m curious to know: Are there things that you don’t tell your spouse > about your spending habits or your financial affairs? Or that he/she > doesn’t tell you? Have you ever "discovered" one of your spouse’s > secrets, or vice versa? How did you deal with the discovery? > And last but not least: If any of these issues have come up in your > marriage, would you be willing to be interviewed? (If so, I can > protect your anonymity: I don’t have to disclose your name in my > article.) > Feel free to post feedback here, or to e-mail me directly at > matthei…@aol.com. And thanks for your time. > Matt Heimer

Response:

Lies can do that to ya.  You figure it’s gooing to be a deal breaker if she finds out you have the funds to split if you want to? Could it be her agenda involved keeping your barefoot and broke, and therefore harmless? They’re liberated now, these days, so we have to be alert to new possiblities. R <snip> "alnoid" <aln…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:b865069e.0303241558.337692fd@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK, since you’ve asked twice now, I’ll post.  I opened an account > surreptitiously about six months ago. > I earn the money, and my wife pays all the bills.  We’re both quite > frugal, and agree on most financial issues.  We abhor debt, and have > none other than our house.  She has 100% control over the finances, so > we have had occasional spats about where the money should go.  They’re > not big arguments, but generally I save my money for large purchases > (computer parts, etc.), while she spends it on comic books and > restaurants.  At the end of the year, I’d like to take the $1000 she > spent on comics and food, and go buy a 21" monitor!  But she doesn’t > think it’s a *need*, so I don’t get it.  Comic books, at $50 a month, > fall below the threshold of scrutiny, and "aren’t a big deal, because > it’s only $50". > That’s the extent of our money squabbles.  But it’s not the reason for > my opening an account, and it’s not a major problem between us.  For > other reasons, our marriage has been particularly rocky for the past > year, and I’ve realized that I don’t have any control over what > happens to me in the event of a failure.  What if I had to go put a > deposit on an apartment somewhere?  Or buy a car in my own name after > she leaves me hanging?  Or, how would I pay for a lawyer if I had to > act at some point? > These are all unfortunate questions for a married man to entertain. > Nevertheless, the deed is done; both the above questions and hiding > the money.  When I got a raise this year, I changed my auto-deposit to > put most of the increase in my new account, and I told my wife that my > raise was less than it actually was.  It was my first outright lie in > six years of married life.  I don’t have much in there yet, but it’s > growing, and I feel more secure. > The problem comes when I try to spend it.  I can’t divulge that I’ve > taken a share off the top.  So no matter what, it’s only to use for > myself if an emergency happens.  Maybe if we’re still together in 25 > years, I’ll admit it and show it to her, and we’ll take a trip.  Or > buy a Winnebego? > mhei…@hearst.com (matt heimer) wrote in message

<news:ae77d747.0303220642.675d21f0@posting.google.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hi. I’m a magazine writer, and recently married. I’m working on an > > article for Good Housekeeping, a national women’s magazine, about > > financial issues that spouses keep secret from one another. > > I’m curious to know: Are there things that you don’t tell your spouse > > about your spending habits or your financial affairs? Or that he/she > > doesn’t tell you? Have you ever "discovered" one of your spouse’s > > secrets, or vice versa? How did you deal with the discovery? > > And last but not least: If any of these issues have come up in your > > marriage, would you be willing to be interviewed? (If so, I can > > protect your anonymity: I don’t have to disclose your name in my > > article.) > > Feel free to post feedback here, or to e-mail me directly at > > matthei…@aol.com. And thanks for your time. > > Matt Heimer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -mhei…@hearst.com (matt heimer) wrote in message <news:ae77d747.0303220642.675d21f0@posting.google.com>… > Hi. I’m a magazine writer, and recently married. I’m working on an > article for Good Housekeeping, a national women’s magazine, about > financial issues that spouses keep secret from one another. > I’m curious to know: Are there things that you don’t tell your spouse > about your spending habits or your financial affairs? Or that he/she > doesn’t tell you? Have you ever "discovered" one of your spouse’s > secrets, or vice versa? How did you deal with the discovery? > And last but not least: If any of these issues have come up in your > marriage, would you be willing to be interviewed? (If so, I can > protect your anonymity: I don’t have to disclose your name in my > article.) > Feel free to post feedback here, or to e-mail me directly at > matthei…@aol.com. And thanks for your time. > Matt Heimer

OK.  You asked. I’ll anser point by point. Q.) Are there things that you don’t tell your spouse about your spending habits or your financial affairs? Or that he/she doesn’t tell you? A.) Yes. When I purchase anything that is solely for me, with what is *my* money (we have an arrangement on that), I often don’t mention it to my spouse, at least, as far as cornering him and saying "I spent X dollars on this".  I also have a savings account that my husband knows I have, but not how much is in it.  Should that money ever be needed, I’m happy to share, but not while everything’s going peachy (or close to).  As far as I know, he does the same. Q.)Have you ever "discovered" one of your spouse’s secrets, or vice versa? How did you deal with the discovery? A.)Well, I did stumble upon some CD’s that I didn’t know my husband had.  They were from before we married.  Not too much, about $5000 total.  He told me that he hadn’t meant to keep them from me, and I believed him.  So, I guess they weren’t really a secret. While we do maintain separate accounts and our accounting can get complicated, neither of us really are out to "hide" anything from each other.  We don’t sweat the small stuff (as someone pointed out, a few bills in the purse or wallet) as long as the bills get paid, and the larger stuff is mostly open. Feel free to use anything I post to this group, since it’s public anyway, but I don’t think you’d want to bother interviewing me.  Now, the divorce group…that may be the place to look for this info. Rebecca

Response:

Hi. I’m a magazine writer, and recently married. I’m working on an article for Good Housekeeping, a national women’s magazine, about financial issues that spouses keep secret from one another. I’m curious to know: Are there things that you don’t tell your spouse about your spending habits or your financial affairs? Or that he/she doesn’t tell you? Have you ever "discovered" one of your spouse’s secrets, or vice versa? How did you deal with the discovery? And last but not least: If any of these issues have come up in your marriage, would you be willing to be interviewed? (If so, I can protect your anonymity: I don’t have to disclose your name in my article.) Feel free to post feedback here, or to e-mail me directly at matthei…@aol.com. And thanks for your time. Matt Heimer

Response:

matt heimer <mhei…@hearst.com> wrote: > And last but not least: If any of these issues have come up in your > marriage, would you be willing to be interviewed?

Sorry.  If you ever decide to do a story where one spouse is seriously *clueless* about money, I’m your woman.  But no secrets.

Response:

matt heimer wrote: > Hi. I’m a magazine writer, and recently married. I’m working on an > article for Good Housekeeping, a national women’s magazine, about > financial issues that spouses keep secret from one another. > I’m curious to know: Are there things that you don’t tell your spouse > about your spending habits or your financial affairs? Or that he/she > doesn’t tell you? Have you ever "discovered" one of your spouse’s > secrets, or vice versa? How did you deal with the discovery?

Sorry, no, can’t help you. We don’t have any money secrets. Neither of us rattle on about how much we fritter away on cafe lattes, train fare or books but that’s out of the desire not to bore the other to death. We discuss our finances regularly and we each have access all joint and separate accounts. Unless there are some complicated financial issues that predate a marriage I suspect it would be hard to find any money secrets that would have anything other than a malign effect on the trust in a relationship. Tai

Response:

Question:

Well after I found out that Gaylord Entertainment has recently had a great 3rd Qauter in revenue I said to myself hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds like a money maker…

What is their net profit compared to the second quarter? Evemn though the money making is over about a 6 monthsd period, Gaylord Entertainment should if anything double my profits I hope!

LOL.  Got to pass this along for laughs.

Response:

Well after I found out that Gaylord Entertainment has recently had a great 3rd Qauter in revenue I said to myself hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds like a money maker… What is their net profit compared to the second quarter?

Who cares!  Sounds like a money maker.  LOL

Response:

This is an excerpt from my AP Economic term paper. For the nine months ended 09/02, revenues rose 38% to $302.5 million. Net income from continuing operations before accounting change totaled $25.7 million, vs. a net loss of $7.1 million. Results reflect increased revenue from the hospitality segment, and $30.5 million gain on sale of asset. Gaylord Entertainment has remained almost stable over the past year, even through the stock plummet after September 11th. I am certainly not looking for a short term investment, being that the price-to-earnings multiple is higher than the average for all stocks traded on the NYSE. I think the 5 year return looks very impressive with almost a 17.8% return. But what makes this such a unique stock pick is that it’s not heavily traded among large institutions. I see great potential in this stock over a long term investment. — – Justin Lamar Pugh "The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well after I found out that Gaylord Entertainment has recently had a great 3rd Qauter in revenue I said to myself hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds like a money maker… What is their net profit compared to the second quarter? Evemn though the money making is over about a 6 monthsd period, Gaylord Entertainment should if anything double my profits I hope! LOL.  Got to pass this along for laughs.

Response:

Thus speaketh Justin Pugh: For the nine months ended 09/02, revenues rose 38% to $302.5 million. Net income from continuing operations before accounting change totaled $25.7 million, vs. a net loss of $7.1 million. Results reflect increased revenue from the hospitality segment, and $30.5 million gain on sale of asset. Gaylord Entertainment has remained almost stable over the past year, even through the stock plummet after September 11th. I am certainly not looking for a short term investment, being that the price-to-earnings multiple is higher than the average for all stocks traded on the NYSE. I think the 5 year return looks very impressive with almost a 17.8% return. But what makes this such a unique stock pick is that it’s not heavily traded among large institutions. I see great potential in this stock over a long term investment.

Copy-and-paste can make anyone look intelligent. Even you, Puke. — Tattoo Vampire, Esq. Owner & Proprietor, Trollus Amongus, Inc. XP owner but a Linux user For all you do, this troll’s for YOU! Remove "comorgbiz" if emailing

Response:

I know! — – Justin Lamar Pugh "The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thus speaketh Justin Pugh: For the nine months ended 09/02, revenues rose 38% to $302.5 million. Net income from continuing operations before accounting change totaled $25.7 million, vs. a net loss of $7.1 million. Results reflect increased revenue from the hospitality segment, and $30.5 million gain on sale of asset. Gaylord Entertainment has remained almost stable over the past year, even through the stock plummet after September 11th. I am certainly not looking for a short term investment, being that the price-to-earnings multiple is higher than the average for all stocks traded on the NYSE. I think the 5 year return looks very impressive with almost a 17.8% return. But what makes this such a unique stock pick is that it’s not heavily traded among large institutions. I see great potential in this stock over a long term investment. Copy-and-paste can make anyone look intelligent. Even you, Puke. — Tattoo Vampire, Esq. Owner & Proprietor, Trollus Amongus, Inc. XP owner but a Linux user For all you do, this troll’s for YOU! Remove "comorgbiz" if emailing

Response:

Question:

See, I told you so.

Response:

See, I told you so.

I don’t see any dots connecting the two topics. LZ

Response:

doesn’t the boxes of activated charcoal sold in tropical fish stores warn not to use too much lest oxygen be removed and the fish suffer? Or is that just activated carbon which may be inferior to charcoal? Anyone out there have a fish tank in their rv?

Phew you had me worried there, good thing I remembered not to inhale water. Wade

Response:

doesn’t the boxes of activated charcoal sold in tropical fish stores warn not to use too much lest oxygen be removed and the fish suffer? Or is that just activated carbon which may be inferior to charcoal? Anyone out there have a fish tank in their rv? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Active) Charcoal water filters do not loose their ability to remove chemicals after they dry out. "Charcoal is a substance in which the surface atoms are an appreciable fraction of the total number.  It consists of porous carbon having a net work of fine tunnels extending through the specimen."  Activated charcoal is very spongy, and as such, it has a high ratio of surface area to weight.  With such a large surface area, carbon atoms have a large unsaturated valence area too, to attract substances. "They can attract molecules, especially polar molecules, thus accounting for the high adsorption that is characteristic of charcoal."  Adsorption is the process whereby there is an adherence of atoms, ions, or molecules of a gas or liquid to the surface of another substance.  For example, "When a mixture of hydrogen sulfide, H2S, and oxygen is passed over a charcoal surface, the H2S is selectively adsorbed.  Because H2S is a polar molecule with the sulfur end more negative than the hydrogen end, it is more strongly adsorbed than the oxygen molecule, which is symmetric and nonpolar." "The charcoal gas mask makes use of this principle of selective adsorption.  The charcoal selectively adsorbs poisonous gases, which are usually complicated polar molecules, and lets the oxygen through for respiration."  Sources:  Chemical Principles and Properties, Second Edition; Sienko and Plane, McGraw Hill, p. 253, 1974. Reviewing Chemistry; Gelender Amesco; and, The Condensed Chemical Dictionary, Tenth Edition, Revised by G.G. Hawley. gave us the following knowledge: Charcoal water filters are great. But after the first use if they dry out the charcoal looses it’s ability to remove chemical anymore and is not much good after that.    I wonder how many knew that?    I always keep water in my hose where the filter is to keep the charcoal active. I’m afraid I didn’t know that and neither do my filters.  I usually change them spring and fall, regardless.  I forgot to drain them and left the water in for a week one time.  Peeeeeuuuuuuuuuuu!  The filters smelled grungy so I replaced them.  Since then I make sure they are well drained. LZ ——~oo~——    Bad will be the day for every man when he becomes absolutely contented with the life he is leading, with the thoughts he is thinking, with the deeds he is doing; when there is not forever beating at the doors of his soul some great desire to do something larger, which he knows that he was meant and made to do because he is still, in spite of all, the child of God.                 … Phillips Brooks (1835-1893)

Response:

(Active) Charcoal water filters do not loose their ability to remove chemicals after they dry out. "Charcoal is a substance in which the surface atoms are an appreciable fraction of the total number.  It consists of porous carbon having a net work of fine tunnels extending through the specimen."  Activated charcoal is very spongy, and as such, it has a high ratio of surface area to weight.  With such a large surface area, carbon atoms have a large unsaturated valence area too, to attract substances. "They can attract molecules, especially polar molecules, thus accounting for the high adsorption that is characteristic of charcoal."  Adsorption is the process whereby there is an adherence of atoms, ions, or molecules of a gas or liquid to the surface of another substance.  For example, "When a mixture of hydrogen sulfide, H2S, and oxygen is passed over a charcoal surface, the H2S is selectively adsorbed.  Because H2S is a polar molecule with the sulfur end more negative than the hydrogen end, it is more strongly adsorbed than the oxygen molecule, which is symmetric and nonpolar." "The charcoal gas mask makes use of this principle of selective adsorption.  The charcoal selectively adsorbs poisonous gases, which are usually complicated polar molecules, and lets the oxygen through for respiration."  Sources:  Chemical Principles and Properties, Second Edition; Sienko and Plane, McGraw Hill, p. 253, 1974. Reviewing Chemistry; Gelender Amesco; and, The Condensed Chemical Dictionary, Tenth Edition, Revised by G.G. Hawley. gave us the following knowledge: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charcoal water filters are great. But after the first use if they dry out the charcoal looses it’s ability to remove chemical anymore and is not much good after that.    I wonder how many knew that?    I always keep water in my hose where the filter is to keep the charcoal active. I’m afraid I didn’t know that and neither do my filters.  I usually change them spring and fall, regardless.  I forgot to drain them and left the water in for a week one time.  Peeeeeuuuuuuuuuuu!  The filters smelled grungy so I replaced them.  Since then I make sure they are well drained. LZ

——~oo~——    Bad will be the day for every man when he becomes absolutely contented with the life he is leading, with the thoughts he is thinking, with the deeds he is doing; when there is not forever beating at the doors of his soul some great desire to do something larger, which he knows that he was meant and made to do because he is still, in spite of all, the child of God.                 … Phillips Brooks (1835-1893)

Response:

Why do you have charcoal in both.  I would think you would have one for taste and one for junk. Just curious…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like ,and use, the outside one.  It is a cartridge type I picked up and Home Depot.  What’s good about it as opposed to an inside one is when we get home from out weekend trips I can easily pull the cartridge out and hose it off and set it out to dry. I use two AMTEK filters connected by a 6" pipe.  Both have charcoal filters.  They work great.  Use them right next to the water supply faucet.  They take ALL the crap out and 99% of any bad flavors and odors. LZ

Response:

Why do you have charcoal in both.  I would think you would have one for taste and one for junk. Just curious…

It sort of evolved.  Went to a lake in Texas the first year without filters (greenhorn).  LOts of crap in my water heater, lousy tasting water.  Year 2:  Paper AMTEK filter.  Less crap, lousy taste.  Year 3: 2 AMTEKS, first one paper, second one charcoal.  No crap, taste almost bearable.  Year 4:  Both filters charcoal.  No crap, drinkable water. Plenty of water pressure.  The first filter is clear so I can see if any green stuff is growing.  When I disconnect I drain the filters.  If the water is slow draining out, it’s time to change the filters.  I get a 2-pak for $6.70 at a local farm store. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like ,and use, the outside one.  It is a cartridge type I picked up and Home Depot.  What’s good about it as opposed to an inside one is when we get home from out weekend trips I can easily pull the cartridge out and hose it off and set it out to dry. I use two AMTEK filters connected by a 6" pipe.  Both have charcoal filters.  They work great.  Use them right next to the water supply faucet.  They take ALL the crap out and 99% of any bad flavors and odors. LZ

Response:

Charcoal water filters are great. But after the first use if they dry out the charcoal looses it’s ability to remove chemical anymore and is not much good after that.    I wonder how many knew that?    I always keep water in my hose where the filter is to keep the charcoal active.

Response:

Charcoal water filters are great. But after the first use if they dry out the charcoal looses it’s ability to remove chemical

< Cite? I wonder because the carbon I get for my aquariums comes dry and needs to be wet to be activated. Just wondering where you got this information. I am not sure what mechanism would block the adsorbtion onto the granules when they dry out. Crashj ‘if you don’t have a filter you will be one’ Johnson

Response:

Charcoal water filters are great. But after the first use if they dry out the charcoal looses it’s ability to remove chemical anymore and is not much good after that.    I wonder how many knew that?    I always keep water in my hose where the filter is to keep the charcoal active.

I’m afraid I didn’t know that and neither do my filters.  I usually change them spring and fall, regardless.  I forgot to drain them and left the water in for a week one time.  Peeeeeuuuuuuuuuuu!  The filters smelled grungy so I replaced them.  Since then I make sure they are well drained. LZ

Response:

The best help I’ve seen on this and many subjects in in phrannie’s poop sheets. http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html Good luck, Fred

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Any of you happy campers using water filters with your rigs?  Do you prefer interior or exterior. Are there any paticularly good or remarkably bad out in the market place? John To reply via E-Mail, please remove the "nojunk" from my address

Response:

I like ,and use, the outside one.  It is a cartridge type I picked up and Home Depot.  What’s good about it as opposed to an inside one is when we get home from out weekend trips I can easily pull the cartridge out and hose it off and set it out to dry.

I use two AMTEK filters connected by a 6" pipe.  Both have charcoal filters.  They work great.  Use them right next to the water supply faucet.  They take ALL the crap out and 99% of any bad flavors and odors. LZ

Response:

Hi, Any of you happy campers using water filters with your rigs?  Do you prefer interior or exterior. Are there any paticularly good or remarkably bad out in the market place? John To reply via E-Mail, please remove the "nojunk" from my address

Response:

I like ,and use, the outside one.  It is a cartridge type I picked up and Home Depot.  What’s good about it as opposed to an inside one is when we get home from out weekend trips I can easily pull the cartridge out and hose it off and set it out to dry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Any of you happy campers using water filters with your rigs?  Do you prefer interior or exterior. Are there any paticularly good or remarkably bad out in the market place? John To reply via E-Mail, please remove the "nojunk" from my address

Response:

Question:

But it is a shameful and opprobrious business if you ask me. Doug Grant (Tm)

But noone did, did they? Now go crawl back under your rock and wait for the unfortunate person who passes by and does ask your opinion.

Response:

But it is a shameful and opprobrious business if you ask me. Doug Grant (Tm) But noone did, did they? Now go crawl back under your rock and wait for the unfortunate person who passes by and does ask your opinion.

Doug Says: Speaking from under my rock to you under yours, obviously Gore Vidal did exactly what I expressed my distain for.   Also, if you do not want opinions, then don’t post shameless solicitations for books on newsgroups.   Especially pro-terrorist books. Doug Grant (Tm)

Response:

    Newsmax is a slanted source also. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do constantly quote the Guardian?  It’s not even a newspaper… US a Seedy Imperialist State-Gore Vidal Via NY Transfer News * All the News That Doesn’t Fit The Guardian – April 27, 2002 <SNIPPED FORCEFULLY

Response:

Why do constantly quote the Guardian?  It’s not even a newspaper…

Then what exactly is it?

Response:

Doug Says: If Mr. Vidal knew anything about Terrorist tactics he would have known that defending all possible targets from terrorist attacks is impossible.  The only way to defeat terrorism is to attack their strongholds and destroy them, their resources, and then control their political and police procedures until a government responsible to the civilized world can be created.

Rubbish. There are reasons, and many of the time they are justifiable for people becoming involved in so called "terrorism". It is sad when a sixteen year old girl in Palestine feels there is no longer anything worth living for in her world around that she feels the need tol blow herself and her oppressors to pieces. Do you simply dismiss these people as crazy? The solution as the British government in recent times has conceded with respect to "terrorism" in Northern Ireland is to talk to the "terrorists". After years of the British government trying its best to defeat terrorism using the method you suggest and promising NEVER to talk to terrorists it certainly did alot of back peddling in recent times resulting in the peace-process.

Response:

by Gore Vidal According to the Koran, it was on a Tuesday that Allah created darkness. Last September 11, when suicide pilots were crashing commercial airliners into crowded American buildings, I did not have to look at the calendar to see what day it was: Dark Tuesday was casting its long shadow across Manhattan and along the Potomac river.

http://www3.niu.edu/newsplace/time.jpg I remember this picture shortly after bush became elected. Notice how it says "Black Tuesday coverage" its almost prophetic.

Response:

Why do constantly quote the Guardian?  It’s not even a newspaper… Then what exactly is it?

A garbage wrapper.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doug Says: If Mr. Vidal knew anything about Terrorist tactics he would have known that defending all possible targets from terrorist attacks is impossible.  The only way to defeat terrorism is to attack their strongholds and destroy them, their resources, and then control their political and police procedures until a government responsible to the civilized world can be created. Rubbish. There are reasons, and many of the time they are justifiable for people becoming involved in so called "terrorism". It is sad when a sixteen year old girl in Palestine feels there is no longer anything worth living for in her world around that she feels the need tol blow herself and her oppressors to pieces. Do you simply dismiss these people as crazy?

Yes, a pathetic brain-washed child with a brain full of crazy propaganda put there by people she trusted. Arabs are a mixed lot – a surplus of bad apples. The solution as the British government in recent times has conceded with respect to "terrorism" in Northern Ireland is to talk to the "terrorists". After years of the British government trying its best to defeat terrorism using the method you suggest and promising NEVER to talk to terrorists it certainly did alot of back peddling in recent times resulting in the peace-process.

Last I heard they were still talking to the bastards with no lasting peace in site – terrorists find terrorism is too lucrative a business to go back to growing potatoes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

message – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wrote in US a Seedy Imperialist State-Gore Vidal Via NY Transfer News * All the News That Doesn’t Fit The Guardian – April 27, 2002 Since September 11 the US is in danger of turning into a ’seedy imperial state,’ argues Gore Vidal Taking liberties by Gore Vidal According to the Koran, it was on a Tuesday that Allah created darkness. Last September 11, when suicide pilots were crashing commercial airliners into crowded American buildings, I did not have to look at the calendar to see what day it was: Dark Tuesday was casting its long shadow across Manhattan and along the Potomac river. I was also not surprised that despite the seven or so trillion dollars the US has spent since 1950 on what is

euphemistically called "defence," there would have been no advance warning from the FBI or CIA or Defence Intelligence Agency.

Doug Says: If Mr. Vidal knew anything about Terrorist tactics he would have known that defending all possible targets from terrorist attacks is impossible.  The only way to defeat terrorism is to attack their strongholds and destroy them, their resources, and then control their political and police procedures until a government responsible to the civilized world can be created. Terrorists are cowards that avoid attacks on military bases because they know those people can and will fight back.  The Muslim terrorists pick the weak and unsuspecting to murder, children in their cribs and teenagers at a dance.  What is the heroics in that?  Where is the honor in butchering little children in their cribs or slaughtering unarmed teenagers in a Pizza parlor, or massacring unsuspecting office workers sitting at their desks? These terrorist attacks were acts of pure cowardice, typical of Bin Laden and his ilk.  If Gore Vidal wants to glorify the murder of innocent children to make a buck with a book, then that is his business.  But it is a shameful and opprobrious business if you ask me. Doug Grant (Tm)

Response:

Why do constantly quote the Guardian?  It’s not even a newspaper… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – US a Seedy Imperialist State-Gore Vidal Via NY Transfer News * All the News That Doesn’t Fit The Guardian – April 27, 2002 <SNIPPED FORCEFULLY

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do constantly quote the Guardian?  It’s not even a newspaper… wrote in US a Seedy Imperialist State-Gore Vidal Via NY Transfer News * All the News That Doesn’t Fit The Guardian – April 27, 2002 <SNIPPED FORCEFULLY

Doug Says: They are trying their best to deceive readers into believing there is some credibility behind their obvious propaganda.  Just another deception from terrorist posters…what a surprise…NOT! Doug Grant (Tm)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – US a Seedy Imperialist State-Gore Vidal Via NY Transfer News * All the News That Doesn’t Fit The Guardian – April 27, 2002 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4402268,00.html Since September 11 the US is in danger of turning into a ’seedy imperial state,’ argues Gore Vidal Taking liberties by Gore Vidal According to the Koran, it was on a Tuesday that Allah created darkness. Last September 11, when suicide pilots were crashing commercial airliners into crowded American buildings, I did not have to look at the calendar to see what day it was: Dark Tuesday was casting its long shadow across Manhattan and along the Potomac river. I was also not surprised that despite the seven or so trillion dollars the US has spent since 1950 on what is euphemistically called "defence," there would have been no advance warning from the FBI or CIA or Defence Intelligence Agency. While the Bushites have been eagerly preparing for the last war but two – missiles from North Korea, clearly marked with flags, would rain down on Portland, Oregon, only to be intercepted by our missile-shield balloons – the foxy Osama bin Laden knew that all he needed for his holy war on the infidel was a few flyers willing to kill themselves along with those passengers who happened to be aboard the hijacked airliners. Also, like so many of those born to wealth, Bin Laden is not one to throw money about. Apparently, the airline tickets of the 19 known dead hijackers were paid for by credit card. I suspect that United and American Airlines will never be reimbursed by American Express, whose New York offices Bin Laden – inadvertently? – hit.

Doug Says: If Mr. Vidal knew anything about Terrorist tactics he would have known that defending all possible targets from terrorist attacks is impossible.  The only way to defeat terrorism is to attack their strongholds and destroy them, their resources, and then control their political and police procedures until a government responsible to the civilized world can be created. Terrorists are cowards that avoid attacks on military bases because they know those people can and will fight back.  The Muslim terrorists pick the weak and unsuspecting to murder, children in their cribs and teenagers at a dance.  What is the heroics in that?  Where is the honor in butchering little children in their cribs or slaughtering unarmed teenagers in a Pizza parlor, or massacring unsuspecting office workers sitting at their desks? These terrorist attacks were acts of pure cowardice, typical of Bin Laden and his ilk.  If Gore Vidal wants to glorify the murder of innocent children to make a buck with a book, then that is his business.  But it is a shameful and opprobrious business if you ask me. Doug Grant (Tm)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – US a Seedy Imperialist State-Gore Vidal Via NY Transfer News * All the News That Doesn’t Fit The Guardian – April 27, 2002 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4402268,00.html Since September 11 the US is in danger of turning into a ’seedy imperial state,’ argues Gore Vidal Taking liberties by Gore Vidal According to the Koran, it was on a Tuesday that Allah created darkness. Last September 11, when suicide pilots were crashing commercial airliners into crowded American buildings, I did not have to look at the calendar to see what day it was: Dark Tuesday was casting its long shadow across Manhattan and along the Potomac river. I was also not surprised that despite the seven or so trillion dollars the US has spent since 1950 on what is euphemistically called "defence," there would have been no advance warning from the FBI or CIA or Defence Intelligence Agency. While the Bushites have been eagerly preparing for the last war but two – missiles from North Korea, clearly marked with flags, would rain down on Portland, Oregon, only to be intercepted by our missile-shield balloons – the foxy Osama bin Laden knew that all he needed for his holy war on the infidel was a few flyers willing to kill themselves along with those passengers who happened to be aboard the hijacked airliners. Also, like so many of those born to wealth, Bin Laden is not one to throw money about. Apparently, the airline tickets of the 19 known dead hijackers were paid for by credit card. I suspect that United and American Airlines will never be reimbursed by American Express, whose New York offices Bin Laden – inadvertently? – hit. The telephone keeps ringing. In summer I live south of Naples, in Italy. Italian newspapers, television and radio want comment. So do I. I have written lately about Pearl Harbor. I get the same question over and over: isn’t Dark Tuesday exactly like Sunday morning, December 7 1941? No, it’s not, I say. As far as we know, we had no warning of the September 11 attack. Of course, our government has many, many secrets which our enemies always seem to know about in advance but our people are not told of until years later, if at all. President Roosevelt provoked the Japanese to attack us at Pearl Harbor. I describe the various steps he took in a book, The Golden Age. We now know what was on his mind: coming to England’s aid against Japan’s ally, Hitler, a virtuous plot that ended triumphantly for the human race. But what was – is? – on Bin Laden’s mind? For several decades there has been an unrelenting demonisation of the Muslim world in the American media. Since I am a loyal American, I am not supposed to tell you why this has taken place, but then it is not usual for us to examine why anything happens other than to accuse others of motiveless malignity. "We are good," announced a deep thinker on American television, "they are evil," which wraps that one up in a neat package. But it was Bush himself who put, as it were, the bow on the package in an address to a joint session of Congress where he shared with them – as well as all of us somewhere over the Beltway – his profound knowledge of Islam’s wiles and ways: "They hate what they see right here in this chamber." A million Americans nodded in front of their TV sets. "Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms: our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other." At this plangent moment what American’s gorge did not rise like a Florida chad to the bait? So why do Bin Laden and millions of other Muslims hate us? Bin Laden persuaded 4,000 Saudis to go to Afghanistan for military training by his group. In 1991, Bin Laden moved on to Sudan. In 1994, when the Saudis withdrew his citizenship, Bin Laden was already a legendary figure in the Islamic world and so, like Shakespeare’s Coriolanus, he could tell the royal Saudis, "I banish you. There is a world elsewhere." Unfortunately, that world is us. In a 12-page "declaration of war," Bin Laden presented himself as a potential liberator of the Muslim world from the great Satan of modern corruption, the US. When Clinton lobbed a missile at a Sudanese aspirin factory, Bin Laden blew up two US embassies in Africa, put a hole in the side of an American warship off Yemen, and so on to the events of Tuesday, September 11. Now President George W Bush, in retaliation, has promised us not only a "new war" but a secret war. That is, not secret to Bin Laden but to us – we who pay for and fight it. "This administration will not talk about any plans we may or may not have," said Bush. "We’re going to find these evil-doers… and we’re going to hold them accountable." Along with the other devils who have given Bin Laden shelter in order to teach them the one lesson that we ourselves have never been able to learn: in history, as in physics, there is no action without reaction. Or, as Edward Herman puts it, "One of the most durable features of the US culture is the inability or refusal to recognise US crimes." Bin Laden seemed, from all accounts, no more than a practising, as opposed to zealous, Muslim. Ironically, he was trained as an engineer. Understandably, he dislikes the United States as symbol and as fact. But when our clients, the Saudi royal family, allowed American troops to occupy the Prophet’s holy land, Bin Laden named the fundamental enemy "the Crusader-Zionist Alliance." Thus, in a phrase, he defined himself and reminded his critics that he is a Wahabi Muslim, a puritan activist not unlike our Falwell-Robertson [Christian fundamentalist] zanies, only serious. He would go to war against the US, "the head of the serpent." Even more ambitiously, he would rid all the Muslim states of their western-supported regimes, starting with that of his native land. The word "Crusader" was the giveaway. In the eyes of many Muslims, the Christian west, currently in alliance with Zionism, has for 1,000 years tried to dominate the lands of the Umma, the true believers. That is why Bin Laden is seen by so many simple folk as the true heir to Saladin, the great warrior king who defeated Richard of England and the western crusaders. Saladin (1138-1193) united and "purified" the Muslim world, and though Richard the Lionheart was the better general, in the end he gave up and went home. As one historian put it, Saladin "typified the Mohammedan utter self-surrender to a sacred cause." But he left no government behind him, no political system because, as he himself said: "My troops will do nothing save when I ride at their head…" Now his spirit has returned with a vengeance. The Bush administration, though eerily inept in all but its principal task, which is to exempt the rich from taxes, has casually torn up most of the treaties to which civilised nations subscribe – like the Kyoto accord or the nuclear missile agreement with Russia. As the Bushites go about their relentless plundering of the treasury and now, thanks to Bin Laden, social security (a supposedly untouchable trust fund) which has gone to the war, they have also allowed the FBI and CIA to either run amok or not budge at all – leaving us, the very first "indispensable" and, at popular request, last global empire; rather like the Wizard of Oz doing his odd pretend-magic tricks while hoping not to be found out. Though Bush’s predecessors have generally had rather higher IQs than his, they, too, assiduously served the 1% that owns the country while allowing everyone else to drift. Particularly culpable was Bill Clinton. Although the most able chief executive since FDR, Clinton, in his frantic pursuit of election victories, set in place the trigger for a police state which his successor is now happily squeezing. Police state? What’s that all about? There have been ominous signs that our fragile liberties have been dramatically at risk since the 1970s, when the white-shirt-and-tie FBI reinvented itself from a corps of "generalists" trained in law and accounting into a confrontational Special Weapons and Tactics (aka Swat) green beret-style army of warriors, who like to dress up in camouflage or black ninja clothing and, depending on the caper, the odd ski mask. In the early 80s, an FBI super-Swat team, the Hostage 270 Rescue Team, was formed. As so often happens in US-speak, this group specialised not in freeing hostages or saving lives but in murderous attacks on groups that offended them, like the Branch Davidians – evangelical Christians living peaceably in their own compound at Waco, Texas, until an FBI Swat team, illegally using army tanks, killed 82 of them, including 25 children. This was 1993. Post-September 11, Swat teams can now be used to go after suspect Arab-Americans or, indeed, anyone who might be guilty of terrorism, a word without legal definition (how can you fight terrorism by suspending habeas corpus, since those who want their corpuses released from prison are already locked up?). But in the post-Oklahoma City trauma, Clinton said that those who did not support his draconian legislation were terrorist co-conspirators who wanted to turn "America into a safe house for terrorists." If the cool Clinton could so froth, what are we to expect from the overheated Bush post-September 11? Incidentally, those who were shocked by Bush the Younger’s shout that we are now "at war" with Bin Laden and those parts of the Muslim world that support him should have put on their collective thinking caps quickly.

… read more »

Response:

US a Seedy Imperialist State-Gore Vidal Via NY Transfer News * All the News That Doesn’t Fit The Guardian – April 27, 2002 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4402268,00.html Since September 11 the US is in danger of turning into a ’seedy imperial state,’ argues Gore Vidal Taking liberties by Gore Vidal According to the Koran, it was on a Tuesday that Allah created darkness. Last September 11, when suicide pilots were crashing commercial airliners into crowded American buildings, I did not have to look at the calendar to see what day it was: Dark Tuesday was casting its long shadow across Manhattan and along the Potomac river. I was also not surprised that despite the seven or so trillion dollars the US has spent since 1950 on what is euphemistically called "defence," there would have been no advance warning from the FBI or CIA or Defence Intelligence Agency. While the Bushites have been eagerly preparing for the last war but two – missiles from North Korea, clearly marked with flags, would rain down on Portland, Oregon, only to be intercepted by our missile-shield balloons – the foxy Osama bin Laden knew that all he needed for his holy war on the infidel was a few flyers willing to kill themselves along with those passengers who happened to be aboard the hijacked airliners. Also, like so many of those born to wealth, Bin Laden is not one to throw money about. Apparently, the airline tickets of the 19 known dead hijackers were paid for by credit card. I suspect that United and American Airlines will never be reimbursed by American Express, whose New York offices Bin Laden – inadvertently? – hit. The telephone keeps ringing. In summer I live south of Naples, in Italy. Italian newspapers, television and radio want comment. So do I. I have written lately about Pearl Harbor. I get the same question over and over: isn’t Dark Tuesday exactly like Sunday morning, December 7 1941? No, it’s not, I say. As far as we know, we had no warning of the September 11 attack. Of course, our government has many, many secrets which our enemies always seem to know about in advance but our people are not told of until years later, if at all. President Roosevelt provoked the Japanese to attack us at Pearl Harbor. I describe the various steps he took in a book, The Golden Age. We now know what was on his mind: coming to England’s aid against Japan’s ally, Hitler, a virtuous plot that ended triumphantly for the human race. But what was – is? – on Bin Laden’s mind? For several decades there has been an unrelenting demonisation of the Muslim world in the American media. Since I am a loyal American, I am not supposed to tell you why this has taken place, but then it is not usual for us to examine why anything happens other than to accuse others of motiveless malignity. "We are good," announced a deep thinker on American television, "they are evil," which wraps that one up in a neat package. But it was Bush himself who put, as it were, the bow on the package in an address to a joint session of Congress where he shared with them – as well as all of us somewhere over the Beltway – his profound knowledge of Islam’s wiles and ways: "They hate what they see right here in this chamber." A million Americans nodded in front of their TV sets. "Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms: our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other." At this plangent moment what American’s gorge did not rise like a Florida chad to the bait? So why do Bin Laden and millions of other Muslims hate us? Bin Laden persuaded 4,000 Saudis to go to Afghanistan for military training by his group. In 1991, Bin Laden moved on to Sudan. In 1994, when the Saudis withdrew his citizenship, Bin Laden was already a legendary figure in the Islamic world and so, like Shakespeare’s Coriolanus, he could tell the royal Saudis, "I banish you. There is a world elsewhere." Unfortunately, that world is us. In a 12-page "declaration of war," Bin Laden presented himself as a potential liberator of the Muslim world from the great Satan of modern corruption, the US. When Clinton lobbed a missile at a Sudanese aspirin factory, Bin Laden blew up two US embassies in Africa, put a hole in the side of an American warship off Yemen, and so on to the events of Tuesday, September 11. Now President George W Bush, in retaliation, has promised us not only a "new war" but a secret war. That is, not secret to Bin Laden but to us – we who pay for and fight it. "This administration will not talk about any plans we may or may not have," said Bush. "We’re going to find these evil-doers… and we’re going to hold them accountable." Along with the other devils who have given Bin Laden shelter in order to teach them the one lesson that we ourselves have never been able to learn: in history, as in physics, there is no action without reaction. Or, as Edward Herman puts it, "One of the most durable features of the US culture is the inability or refusal to recognise US crimes." Bin Laden seemed, from all accounts, no more than a practising, as opposed to zealous, Muslim. Ironically, he was trained as an engineer. Understandably, he dislikes the United States as symbol and as fact. But when our clients, the Saudi royal family, allowed American troops to occupy the Prophet’s holy land, Bin Laden named the fundamental enemy "the Crusader-Zionist Alliance." Thus, in a phrase, he defined himself and reminded his critics that he is a Wahabi Muslim, a puritan activist not unlike our Falwell-Robertson [Christian fundamentalist] zanies, only serious. He would go to war against the US, "the head of the serpent." Even more ambitiously, he would rid all the Muslim states of their western-supported regimes, starting with that of his native land. The word "Crusader" was the giveaway. In the eyes of many Muslims, the Christian west, currently in alliance with Zionism, has for 1,000 years tried to dominate the lands of the Umma, the true believers. That is why Bin Laden is seen by so many simple folk as the true heir to Saladin, the great warrior king who defeated Richard of England and the western crusaders. Saladin (1138-1193) united and "purified" the Muslim world, and though Richard the Lionheart was the better general, in the end he gave up and went home. As one historian put it, Saladin "typified the Mohammedan utter self-surrender to a sacred cause." But he left no government behind him, no political system because, as he himself said: "My troops will do nothing save when I ride at their head…" Now his spirit has returned with a vengeance. The Bush administration, though eerily inept in all but its principal task, which is to exempt the rich from taxes, has casually torn up most of the treaties to which civilised nations subscribe – like the Kyoto accord or the nuclear missile agreement with Russia. As the Bushites go about their relentless plundering of the treasury and now, thanks to Bin Laden, social security (a supposedly untouchable trust fund) which has gone to the war, they have also allowed the FBI and CIA to either run amok or not budge at all – leaving us, the very first "indispensable" and, at popular request, last global empire; rather like the Wizard of Oz doing his odd pretend-magic tricks while hoping not to be found out. Though Bush’s predecessors have generally had rather higher IQs than his, they, too, assiduously served the 1% that owns the country while allowing everyone else to drift. Particularly culpable was Bill Clinton. Although the most able chief executive since FDR, Clinton, in his frantic pursuit of election victories, set in place the trigger for a police state which his successor is now happily squeezing. Police state? What’s that all about? There have been ominous signs that our fragile liberties have been dramatically at risk since the 1970s, when the white-shirt-and-tie FBI reinvented itself from a corps of "generalists" trained in law and accounting into a confrontational Special Weapons and Tactics (aka Swat) green beret-style army of warriors, who like to dress up in camouflage or black ninja clothing and, depending on the caper, the odd ski mask. In the early 80s, an FBI super-Swat team, the Hostage 270 Rescue Team, was formed. As so often happens in US-speak, this group specialised not in freeing hostages or saving lives but in murderous attacks on groups that offended them, like the Branch Davidians – evangelical Christians living peaceably in their own compound at Waco, Texas, until an FBI Swat team, illegally using army tanks, killed 82 of them, including 25 children. This was 1993. Post-September 11, Swat teams can now be used to go after suspect Arab-Americans or, indeed, anyone who might be guilty of terrorism, a word without legal definition (how can you fight terrorism by suspending habeas corpus, since those who want their corpuses released from prison are already locked up?). But in the post-Oklahoma City trauma, Clinton said that those who did not support his draconian legislation were terrorist co-conspirators who wanted to turn "America into a safe house for terrorists." If the cool Clinton could so froth, what are we to expect from the overheated Bush post-September 11? Incidentally, those who were shocked by Bush the Younger’s shout that we are now "at war" with Bin Laden and those parts of the Muslim world that support him should have put on their collective thinking caps quickly. Since a nation can only be at war with another nation state, why did our smouldering if not yet burning Bush come up with such a phrase? Think hard. Give up? Well, most insurance companies use a rider saying that damage done by "an act of war" need not be covered. Although the men and women around Bush know nothing of war and less of the US constitution, they understand fundraising. For this wartime exclusion, Hartford Life would soon be … read more »

Response:

Question:

This is beginning to sound like that Swift satire on the war over opening the hard boiled egg at the big end vs. the small end. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Top posting is preferred because many people use small screen devices like cell phones, PDAs, etc. Also many use slow internet connections. Top posters should be banned from Usenet and slaughtered mercilessly. "Live long and prosper." To reply remove no spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

We have recently had some ardent discussion here regarding the etiquette of posting, specifically whether responses should be at the top or the bottom. While I follow what I understand is proper netiquette and respond at the bottom, I have noticed that one of my mail readers (AT&T) automatically responds at the top unless I force it to do otherwise. The reader I’m presently using (K Node) has no bias – it will do it either way with equal ease.

Top posters should be banned from Usenet and slaughtered mercilessly. Shawn Pickrell

Response:

Top posting is preferred because many people use small screen devices like cell phones, PDAs, etc. Also many use slow internet connections.   Top posters should be banned from Usenet and slaughtered mercilessly.

"Live long and prosper." To reply remove no spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Order is essential to life, but most of us resent the restrictions on our behavior that the maintenance of order requires, particularly when we are young.

The other key is that, by definition, many of these restrictions are arbitrary–that is, they represent a convention that may be no better or worse than various alternatives.  But by being a convention, they make it easier for all to deal with the operation of the group than having to deal with no convention.   I actually think Microsoft could have done the world a whole lot of good had they set the default in Outlook to *NO* quoting <grin, but then that’s simply my bias because I see a huge number of posts with no editing done whatsoever on the quoted material.  Human behavior is such that most people will take the easy way out, and so will simply not edit out quoted material to reduce it to only the portions that are relevant to the response. For many years I participated in groups on the old CompuServe service. There, due to the fact that you were charged an hourly rate for access (so extra characters essentially translated into dollars), virtually no one in most groups quoted anything from previous posts.  The system actually worked fairly well, since users knew to simply go read the posts ahead of the current reply in the thread if they needed context. I’ve seen quite a few occasions here on usenet where quoting ended up with fouled up attributions–effectively suggesting someone said something they didn’t say.  I would suggest most readers should consider editing quotes if for no other reason to help reduce the chance that they will be deemed to have said something that was actually said by someone else.

Response:

Hopefully my providing the pointers was not (mis)interpreted as trying to dictate. That is not what I was trying to do. Furthermore, I was rather pointing to the problem of repeating scams by (re)posting them in full. Rather than being worried about the order of the text in a posting. You’ll also note that the present discussions actually did not so much start from the netiquette itself, but from postings which involved being a bit uninformed about one’s concepts and in one’s attributions. An ad hominem quips aspect also now seems to have crept in in some of the recent postings.

Hi Timo, Thanks for a thoughtful response to my post. I understand what you are trying to do, but then I’m 61 years old and a lifelong student of human behavior.   Based on some of the responses, I do think your efforts were misinterpreted by some, which is why I’m attempting to approach the matter from a slightly different direction. Order is essential to life, but most of us resent the restrictions on our behavior that the maintenance of order requires, particularly when we are young. Simply put, most of us resent the cops – until it is our own house that is being burgled, and then we can’t get to them quick enough. I did read the material you referenced – http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/netiquet.html   In my opinion it is excellent. Jim

Response:

We have recently had some ardent discussion here regarding the etiquette of posting, specifically whether responses should be at the top or the bottom. While I follow what I understand is proper netiquette and respond at the bottom, I have noticed that one of my mail readers (AT&T) automatically responds at the top unless I force it to do otherwise. The reader I’m presently using (K Node) has no bias – it will do it either way with equal ease. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

We have recently had some ardent discussion here regarding the etiquette of posting, specifically whether responses should be at the top or the bottom.

Jim, to tone this down a few notes, since I am one of the posters who has been providing the netiquette pointers. By its nature the netiquette (mostly) is just a set of established recommendations. Are they useful, that is a matter of personal choice. More on that aspect at the reference http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/netiquet.html in case anyone is interested the points why the netiquette makes some sense. Hopefully my providing the pointers was not (mis)interpreted as trying to dictate. That is not what I was trying to do. Furthermore, I was rather pointing to the problem of repeating scams by (re)posting them in full. Rather than being worried about the order of the text in a posting. You’ll also note that the present discussions actually did not so much start from the netiquette itself, but from postings which involved being a bit uninformed about one’s concepts and in one’s attributions. An ad hominem quips aspect also now seems to have crept in in some of the recent postings. While I follow what I understand is proper netiquette and respond at the bottom, I have noticed that one of my mail readers (AT&T) automatically responds at the top unless I force it to do otherwise.

In fact the program that you mention is not the only one doing so. Top posting suddenly became much more prevalent with the defaults of Outlook Express. Top posting is not a big problem, as such, if at all. But it sometimes unnecessarily adds to the load when the threads grow, makes reading more difficult, and can make the responses seem sloppy. That’s all.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

Question:

 There is no plausible deniability with Enron.

Too soon to say.   Frankly, I find it almost impossible to find anyone connected with it who wasn’t at some level contributory. That includes, employees, investors, congress, accountants, financial community, SEC, Justice, the State folks, on and on…..

The ultimate, relevant, prevailing opinion will most likely be neither yours nor mine, but that of yet to be selected jurors. I am totally convinced that genuine diligence on the part of honest people is essential to keeping fraud and abuse down to a tolerable level.  We cannot rely totally on government and whatever harsh penalties that government might choose to impose. If people are, it still is only going to work up to a point.  It isn’t going to stop everyone from slipping through.  

The only way to stop them all is to stop the economy, clearly not an acceptable alternative.  I’m pushing to keep it down to a tolerable level. A repairman would be someone who could fix the problem.  None of you did, can, or will.  I can’t play the fiddle either.  There is no one on this forum who in anyway, shape or form has, is, or will become an agent of change.  We are all actors, not playwrights or directors.

Public opinion will be the agent of change if there is to be change.  We all contribute – some more – some less. We can no more fix the problems that cause Enrons than we can control the weather.

Hopefully we can disagree agreeably. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

… If you are familiar with "plausible deniability" you will also know that it is extremely difficult to get the real perps.  It is easy enough to put away a few disposable designated perps, but the person or persons who are truly abusing us generally go free because they are smart enough to insulate themselves and to take advantage of the safeguards in our legal system.

Plausible deniability only works when people let it work.  There is no plausible deniability with Enron.  Frankly, I find it almost impossible to find anyone connected with it who wasn’t at some level contributory. That includes, employees, investors, congress, accountants, financial community, SEC, Justice, the State folks, on and on….. I am totally convinced that genuine diligence on the part of honest people is essential to keeping fraud and abuse down to a tolerable level.  We cannot rely totally on government and whatever harsh penalties that government might choose to impose.

If people are, it still is only going to work up to a point.  It isn’t going to stop everyone from slipping through.  There is only one Enron this year, in another decade there will be another one.  Anyone who sez he can put forward a 100% solution is selling horse sweat… That is not to say that I don’t advocate harsh penalties, because I do advocate harsh penalties where appropriate.  I also know that I need to be diligent on my own behalf.

Harsh penalties.  Ha  The last person to be quickly executed for murder was Timothy McVey.  ONLY because he killed a half dozen Federal Police Officers (not the civilians in the building, almost no one gets the rope for killing civilians) and only because he wouldn’t let his lawyers defend him.  Didn’t Gebhart have his wife on the payroll for nothing? Oh, so sorry, bookkeeping mistake, by gones…… The current U.S. is not the land of harsh penalties or even ones that fit the crime, if you can get anyone convicted of anything.  Heck, the State has been trying to execute Steve Anderson for twenty years! Believe it or not, I largely agree with your comment about the Enron failure and the audit failure behind it being little more than a pimple on a wart on the rump of the world; a symptom of something that has gone very wrong.  What I vehemently disagree with is your statement that "it probably cannot be fixed as there is no repairman available".  I’m a repairman.  Meyers is a repairman.  Zollars is a repairman.  Many of the other regulars here are repairmen, as are many of the irregulars and lurkers.  You could also be a repairman if you chose to be.

A repairman would be someone who could fix the problem.  None of you did, can, or will.  I can’t play the fiddle either.  There is no one on this forum who in anyway, shape or form has, is, or will become an agent of change.  We are all actors, not playwrights or directors. I said it before and I say it aging, the next century is not going to be an American century.  We no longer have what it takes and what little we have is dissipating.  Are culture has been under steady attack for the last hundred and it is worn out.  We can no more fix the problems that cause Enrons than we can control the weather. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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IMHO we should bear in mind what "behavioral finance" confirms: The sense of justice and the perception of working in a reasonably just social and political environment with "level playing fields" are very highly motivating factors in respect of economic productivity. Insisting of compliance with basic ethical tenets, which BTW are remarkably similar in most cultures, contributes directly to the economic well-being of our fellow humans and our "goodselves". A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption with GnuPG. Key fingerprint = F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Soviet jihad explosion Panama bomb strategic Serbian kibo North Korea

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Familiar with that, the big plan, critical theory, progressive thought, how the world really works, how politics functions, some of the real motives people have, history, what doesn’t work, why the grand plan doesn’t work, and on and on…… In one sense audit has been broken a long time.  In a larger sense it really doesn’t matter that much.  The Enron failure and the audit failure behind it really are not much in the grand scheme of things. The economic impact is little more than a pimple on a wart on the rump of the world.  It is a symptom of something that has gone very wrong and probably cannot be fixed as there is no repairman available. In a similar note, the 9/11 sneak attack really didn’t have a measurable effect on the economy.  The huge Clinton tax increase of eight or so years ago and all the anti commerce administrative rules and regulations sunk the expansion. …. Ron, Are you familiar with "plausible deniability"?

If you are familiar with "plausible deniability" you will also know that it is extremely difficult to get the real perps.  It is easy enough to put away a few disposable designated perps, but the person or persons who are truly abusing us generally go free because they are smart enough to insulate themselves and to take advantage of the safeguards in our legal system. I am totally convinced that genuine diligence on the part of honest people is essential to keeping fraud and abuse down to a tolerable level.  We cannot rely totally on government and whatever harsh penalties that government might choose to impose.   That is not to say that I don’t advocate harsh penalties, because I do advocate harsh penalties where appropriate.  I also know that I need to be diligent on my own behalf. Believe it or not, I largely agree with your comment about the Enron failure and the audit failure behind it being little more than a pimple on a wart on the rump of the world; a symptom of something that has gone very wrong.  What I vehemently disagree with is your statement that "it probably cannot be fixed as there is no repairman available".  I’m a repairman.  Meyers is a repairman.  Zollars is a repairman.  Many of the other regulars here are repairmen, as are many of the irregulars and lurkers.  You could also be a repairman if you chose to be. My nine-month-old grandchild is upstairs playing with her grandmother as I write this.  I owe it to her to give this the best shot I can.  If this problem is not resolved, and soon, there will be no USA as we know it by the time she is my age. Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com Washington, USA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I did read it and thought very little of it. A system should be setup…. The Exchange should hire the auditors….. Yep, I see what he is doing.  The SEC will need to more closely regulate the Exchange to assure that the audits are carefully done and on and on.. It opens the door, for the end of independent accountancy in the world. On the other hand, maybe the independent accountants no longer have enough ethical and moral capital to do the job.  Maybe the level of rot has passed the point of no return.  Of course all this happened under Levit’s SEC, where all the legally required forms were filed by the I said it before and I will say it again.  If anyone was really serious about cleaning this situation up you would see twenty-five year disbarments from practice before the SEC being handed out.  I haven’t heard anyone mention that.  (If twenty-five doesn’t work, then life time disbarments, bar them from tax work too.)

Ron, Are you familiar with "plausible deniability"? — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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Familiar with that, the big plan, critical theory, progressive thought, how the world really works, how politics functions, some of the real motives people have, history, what doesn’t work, why the grand plan doesn’t work, and on and on…… In one sense audit has been broken a long time.  In a larger sense it really doesn’t matter that much.  The Enron failure and the audit failure behind it really are not much in the grand scheme of things. The economic impact is little more than a pimple on a wart on the rump of the world.  It is a symptom of something that has gone very wrong and probably cannot be fixed as there is no repairman available. In a similar note, the 9/11 sneak attack really didn’t have a measurable effect on the economy.  The huge Clinton tax increase of eight or so years ago and all the anti commerce administrative rules and regulations sunk the expansion.

… Ron, Are you familiar with "plausible deniability"?

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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I wonder whether the AICPA has any liability from the standpoint that it is supposed to "police" the profession.

Who says the AICPA polices the profession. For what it’s worth, the AICPA doesn’t even seem capable of policing its own membership. Hypothetically, if it didn’t act or act timely or with appropriate action for the offender and the firm/individual did something similar—one could always sue —  but seems like one could find a nexus.

Try posting this question on misc.legal.moderated. Regards, Bill

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I wonder whether the AICPA has any liability from the standpoint that it is supposed to "police" the profession. Hypothetically, if it didn’t act or act timely or with appropriate action for the offender and the firm/individual did something similar—one could always sue —  but seems like one could find a nexus. Jim E.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I did read it and thought very little of it. A system should be setup…. The Exchange should hire the auditors….. Yep, I see what he is doing.  The SEC will need to more closely regulate the Exchange to assure that the audits are carefully done and on and on.. It opens the door, for the end of independent accountancy in the world. On the other hand, maybe the independent accountants no longer have enough ethical and moral capital to do the job.  Maybe the level of rot has passed the point of no return.  Of course all this happened under Levit’s SEC, where all the legally required forms were filed by the I said it before and I will say it again.  If anyone was really serious about cleaning this situation up you would see twenty-five year disbarments from practice before the SEC being handed out.  I haven’t heard anyone mention that.  (If twenty-five doesn’t work, then life time disbarments, bar them from tax work too.) Doesn’t really sound like a solution, just another layer of people and a way to get the blame passed off on someone else. Since it would lead to more bureaucracy and government involvement, I can see why the Post published it.  It would definitely get another step toward having the independent CPA made an employee of the Federal Government.  Kind of like the argument I have with my Dentist.  He can’t seem to understand that if there is only one insurance payer, the next step is he is no longer an independent contractor. I think it would be more interesting to let someone else try it out first.  I think the EU should try it first. Did you even read the article Ron. … — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Yes, I did read it and thought very little of it. A system should be setup…. The Exchange should hire the auditors….. Yep, I see what he is doing.  The SEC will need to more closely regulate the Exchange to assure that the audits are carefully done and on and on.. It opens the door, for the end of independent accountancy in the world. On the other hand, maybe the independent accountants no longer have enough ethical and moral capital to do the job.  Maybe the level of rot has passed the point of no return.  Of course all this happened under Levit’s SEC, where all the legally required forms were filed by the I said it before and I will say it again.  If anyone was really serious about cleaning this situation up you would see twenty-five year disbarments from practice before the SEC being handed out.  I haven’t heard anyone mention that.  (If twenty-five doesn’t work, then life time disbarments, bar them from tax work too.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doesn’t really sound like a solution, just another layer of people and a way to get the blame passed off on someone else. Since it would lead to more bureaucracy and government involvement, I can see why the Post published it.  It would definitely get another step toward having the independent CPA made an employee of the Federal Government.  Kind of like the argument I have with my Dentist.  He can’t seem to understand that if there is only one insurance payer, the next step is he is no longer an independent contractor. I think it would be more interesting to let someone else try it out first.  I think the EU should try it first. Did you even read the article Ron.  

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Right you are, Jim. What can we do to support Dave aside from sending him a nice email? (Done.)

Keep beating the drum.  Quote from his article.  Forward the URL to any European publications you know to be following this story. Here we have an "insider" speaking out and telling it like it is.  In my opinion that is truly significant. It is highly likely that this guy will be viciously trashed within the "In" crowd.  Support from us could mean a lot more to him than we have any way of knowing. I’m not presently a member of the AICPA.  If a guy like Cotton were to make a serious attempt to capture one of the top offices I would strongly consider joining so I could vote for him. In my opinion, this sort of effort from the "grass roots" is our best hope to restore the prestige of what was once a fine profession. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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Doesn’t really sound like a solution, just another layer of people and a way to get the blame passed off on someone else. Since it would lead to more bureaucracy and government involvement, I can see why the Post published it.  It would definitely get another step toward having the independent CPA made an employee of the Federal Government.  Kind of like the argument I have with my Dentist.  He can’t seem to understand that if there is only one insurance payer, the next step is he is no longer an independent contractor. I think it would be more interesting to let someone else try it out first.  I think the EU should try it first. CPAs (and I’m One) Can Reverse Their Losses

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Doesn’t really sound like a solution, just another layer of people and a way to get the blame passed off on someone else. Since it would lead to more bureaucracy and government involvement, I can see why the Post published it.  It would definitely get another step toward having the independent CPA made an employee of the Federal Government.  Kind of like the argument I have with my Dentist.  He can’t seem to understand that if there is only one insurance payer, the next step is he is no longer an independent contractor. I think it would be more interesting to let someone else try it out first.  I think the EU should try it first.

Did you even read the article Ron.  Dave Cotton is certainly not advocating a government solution.  Quite the opposite. In his third paragraph Dave states that, "We can restore trust in the CPA profession, and there are two ways to do that with minimal government intervention, red tape and regulation. One is to make accounting firms work directly for the people with the most to lose — investors. Let’s set up a system by which the stock exchanges would use a competitive process to select CPA firms to audit the financial statements of companies whose stock is traded on their exchanges. That would take auditors off the payroll of the firms they’re supposed to be monitoring." The first sentence of his fourth paragraph starts with, "Another measure would be to beef up the strength of the accounting industry’s ethics review panel." How do you get "another step toward having the independent CPA made an employee of the Federal Government" out of that? — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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Looks like "good" thinking.  But of course it’s just a start.  You have the problem of the CPA not being paid by the client.  Now he doesn’t want to cooperate as fully.  Or this client is in better condition than another. Who decides how to allocate costs, which I suspect will some way find its way back to the firm audited.  It wouldn’t be fair to charge costs equally — no firm is alike.  But those are all problems that can be dealt with if one gets a buy in on the concept of  working for the investors, at least with a middleman involved.  As I said, somehow, the costs have to get back to the client.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doesn’t really sound like a solution, just another layer of people and a way to get the blame passed off on someone else. Since it would lead to more bureaucracy and government involvement, I can see why the Post published it.  It would definitely get another step toward having the independent CPA made an employee of the Federal Government.  Kind of like the argument I have with my Dentist.  He can’t seem to understand that if there is only one insurance payer, the next step is he is no longer an independent contractor. I think it would be more interesting to let someone else try it out first.  I think the EU should try it first. Did you even read the article Ron.  Dave Cotton is certainly not advocating a government solution.  Quite the opposite. In his third paragraph Dave states that, "We can restore trust in the CPA profession, and there are two ways to do that with minimal government intervention, red tape and regulation. One is to make accounting firms work directly for the people with the most to lose — investors. Let’s set up a system by which the stock exchanges would use a competitive process to select CPA firms to audit the financial statements of companies whose stock is traded on their exchanges. That would take auditors off the payroll of the firms they’re supposed to be monitoring." The first sentence of his fourth paragraph starts with, "Another measure would be to beef up the strength of the accounting industry’s ethics review panel." How do you get "another step toward having the independent CPA made an employee of the Federal Government" out of that? — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

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CPAs (and I’m One) Can Reverse Their Losses [Outlook] The Post’s opinion and commentary section runs every Sunday. By Dave Cotton Sunday, January 27, 2002; Page B01 Last year, a public opinion survey put certified public accountants solidly in the middle of a short list of most-trusted professionals. Thanks to Enron Corp. and Arthur Andersen LLP, we CPAs might be lucky to outrank journalists, lawyers or used-car salesmen in the next survey. <snip Unfortunately, the plan announced Jan. 17 by Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey Pitt and my own organization, the AICPA, is a collection of cosmetic half-measures. Setting up an autonomous body to oversee ethics enforcement, discipline and SEC practice-monitoring processes is not a bad idea, but it does not address the root causes of the Enron debacle. <big snip of excellent material – must read Dave Cotton is a partner with Cotton & Company LLP, an auditing firm in Alexandria, and a member of the AICPA’s Professional Ethics Committee’s Technical Standards Subcommittee. The opinions expressed in this article do not necessarily represent the views of the AICPA. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41302-2002Jan26.html The above is "must read" stuff.  I find this article extraordinary in that is written by CPA member of the AICPA’s Professional Ethics Committee and published in The Washington Post. For those of you who would like to send Dave an atta-boy, his email is — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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Right you are, Jim. What can we do to support Dave aside from sending him a nice email? (Done.) A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption with GnuPG. Key fingerprint = F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Semtex fissionable NORAD quiche FBI Honduras supercomputer cracking bomb

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Question:

Nay Lass, you upset me not, in fact I think little of you. The Path teaches us tolorance and understanding for all life, even one as vile as you.  I pity one who looks at life in such misery and hate.  May your Deities have compassion for when you come before them and give accounting of your life because what ever lessons you were to learn in this one havn’t taken yet and mayhaps you live it over again… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, clueless wikkin crystal twinkie hypocrite, I only come to this newsgroup to be as vile and mean and nasty as I can. If I upset you, then you are one of the shitsacks I want to piss off. If it doesn’t upset you, then truly you grasp the meaning and intent behind the words. But, you didn’t get it, so you are one of the whores. Whore means to me, to be a belly crawling sellout who values nothing but what they can grab up and run with, backstabbing, and falsefaced. Except for Aine, AFAIC, she is a corner trawling twatpedlar, an alley blowjob selling disease carrying coozer boozer. My only advice for you is to hold tight to your wallet, boy. Keep her as long as you can, then throw the worthless old whore into the ditch she crawled from. AAAhhh I see that you have poke your head out of your little ground hog hole (please don’t look at your shadow I wouldn’t want you to run and Hide)   Seeing as I never have on any occasion have had any converse with you I can only go by what you post, and I must say you have a wee (that mean’s tiny) sprit.  Do you honestly believe that anyone will take what you say to heart, Mean and nasty is not wisdom just a lack of intelligence On with the Show…… Before you buy.

Before you buy.

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Poor Rhyanon..She Truly Believes she is a Lesson for us all here. A teacher of sorts…like ren and his Chaos…If you dont answer you are strong and wise, if you do, you are a whore. Please Rhy..pack up your back woods Legion thinking, you teach nothing, you are nothing. If you were so wise, you could get your points across in a gentle humane way. You cant get them across in any fashion, it is you and yours that need to be taught. You have gained nothing…you give nothing. You just are… Jealous White Trash! Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Thank you again for clearly showing why I think so lowly of you as I do.  I work with the man I have loved for over 11 years, but I wouldn’t expect you to be able to grasp the concept, given you are stupid as mud and can’t keep a man around long enough to understand the word "relationship". All you know is "Blowjob = $5". William would laugh his ass off at some old git like youtrying to flap her lips at him. Vixen, my ass, the only thing vixenlike about you is that disgusting stench that follows you like a greenyellow miasma.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What happened to the self-righteous * I dont work, Im a stay at home mom because some of us choose whats best for our children* June Clever act of yours Rhy? Hubby leave you for some High Priestess Vixen like me and force you to find work and get your ass away from the computer you were on 24/7 to feed that white trash mouth of yours? Gosh, good thing I have someone to entertain and care about me when you are MIA on the job or I just wouldnt have anything in my life! < Aine eye roll Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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There you are!  It is about darn time you rousted yourself away from those kilts and got back to the group!  <G kilts?

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ROFLMAO!  Glad you’re taking a breather! Oldone

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Well, clueless wikkin crystal twinkie hypocrite, I only come to this newsgroup to be as vile and mean and nasty as I can. If I upset you, then you are one of the shitsacks I want to piss off. If it doesn’t upset you, then truly you grasp the meaning and intent behind the words. But, you didn’t get it, so you are one of the whores. Whore means to me, to be a belly crawling sellout who values nothing but what they can grab up and run with, backstabbing, and falsefaced. Except for Aine, AFAIC, she is a corner trawling twatpedlar, an alley blowjob selling disease carrying coozer boozer. My only advice for you is to hold tight to your wallet, boy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Keep her as long as you can, then throw the worthless old whore into the ditch she crawled from. AAAhhh I see that you have poke your head out of your little ground hog hole (please don’t look at your shadow I wouldn’t want you to run and Hide)   Seeing as I never have on any occasion have had any converse with you I can only go by what you post, and I must say you have a wee (that mean’s tiny) sprit.  Do you honestly believe that anyone will take what you say to heart, Mean and nasty is not wisdom just a lack of intelligence On with the Show…… Before you buy.

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What happened to the self-righteous * I dont work, Im a stay at home mom because some of us choose whats best for our children* June Clever act of yours Rhy? Hubby leave you for some High Priestess Vixen like me and force you to find work and get your ass away from the computer you were on 24/7 to feed that white trash mouth of yours? Gosh, good thing I have someone to entertain and care about me when you are MIA on the job or I just wouldnt have anything in my life! < Aine eye roll   Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Oldone Hey to you! Im rousted <bag Out from under the sheets to breathe a moment.  Away from the kilt? Only if he wants Panther claw marks ripped down it as they are pulling me away. The Pirate Garb too….I Zorro’d an A in if for Aine’s! In short, I peed on the man, he is my territory! Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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I respond now, Old Stretchy. See, I work at an honest job that doesn’t involve strange and disease infested  venereal mongers like you are used to. I only have a brief moment of opportunity to let you know you are as high in my regards as you ever have been. Alleytwat.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hern’s son Put the money in our Scotland fund my Handsome Man. We will call it our Cum and Go Witches Bottle Bank…Theres plenty more where that came from. We shall be in the Homeland soon. Guess Rhy-bread doesnt want to respond to you…Thats probably very wise on her part, you would run the wanna be in circles. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Keep her as long as you can, then throw the worthless old whore into the ditch she crawled from.

AAAhhh I see that you have poke your head out of your little ground hog hole (please don’t look at your shadow I wouldn’t want you to run and Hide)   Seeing as I never have on any occasion have had any converse with you I can only go by what you post, and I must say you have a wee (that mean’s tiny) sprit.  Do you honestly believe that anyone will take what you say to heart, Mean and nasty is not wisdom just a lack of intelligence On with the Show…… Before you buy.

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Hern’s son Put the money in our Scotland fund my Handsome Man. We will call it our Cum and Go Witches Bottle Bank…Theres plenty more where that came from. We shall be in the Homeland soon. Guess Rhy-bread doesnt want to respond to you…Thats probably very wise on her part, you would run the wanna be in circles. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Keep her as long as you can, then throw the worthless old whore into the ditch she crawled from.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually Rhyanon, since Anie swallows she worth 25$ sorry I didn’t responded sooner but she kept me occupied ALL weekend Highly skilled that woman, yup think I’ll keep her Did you check the alley behind the bar where she does a brisk 5 dollar blow job special? Uh, noticed that its been quiet lately. Anyone seen Aine? BB Jason Before you buy.

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Aine responded to my message yesterday and as far as I know, she is okay. Oldone

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<grin Aine is in the stars…With a very handsome  local area Scottish man who wears a kilt (you cant have him Shez) who looks even sexier in pirate garb that makes him look like he should be in the Movie *Princess Bride* looking for revenge.Trained in so many paths, I hope he keeps me as a (ahem) student, forever and a day! Yes Rhyanon, he knows all about me..he knows all about you. Even if it lasted only a day, I would die happy!

 I ah, ahem, see! OK, just wnated to make sure you weren’t in any trouble (with the authorities that is). Sorry to interrupt! BB Jason – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Oldone

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Or a cousin, close friend for that matter….shit! —                  Makara                42019365 "Duct tape=Redneck Bondage"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oldone

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Sorry, Ladies.  I got first dibs on any of his hottie friends.  hehehe Many Blessings, Tegan  :) — There are always helpers and signs to point the way for anyone who is willing to follow them. "If you believed the FBI about Leonard Peltier, did you also believe the FBI six years ago about Waco? If so, is it time to re-evaluate your belief in the FBI about Leonard, too?" – PPhillips – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or a cousin, close friend for that matter….shit! —                  Makara                42019365 "Duct tape=Redneck Bondage" Oldone

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Sorry, Ladies.  I got first dibs on any of his hottie friends.  hehehe

Damn! oldone

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<grin Aine is in the stars…*snip*

   In the stars? It sounds like you’re past the stars to me *g*. Although it does sound like your mind is somewhere else *grin*.    May that he, ah, teach you well . Bright be thy day in the sun,    Wintershard    minterra.yahoo.com    For crafts and music, visit www.darkquest.com

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Did you check the alley behind the bar where she does a brisk 5 dollar blow job special?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Uh, noticed that its been quiet lately. Anyone seen Aine? BB Jason

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And I give a shit about your latest victim……why? Aside from feeling sorry for the poor bastard, I actually hope you can manage to

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <grin Aine is in the stars…With a very handsome  local area Scottish man who wears a kilt (you cant have him Shez) who looks even sexier in pirate garb that makes him look like he should be in the Movie *Princess Bride* looking for revenge.Trained in so many paths, I hope he keeps me as a (ahem) student, forever and a day! Yes Rhyanon, he knows all about me..he knows all about you. Even if it lasted only a day, I would die happy! Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Rhyno Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Actually Rhyanon, since Anie swallows she worth 25$ sorry I didn’t responded sooner but she kept me occupied ALL weekend Highly skilled that woman, yup think I’ll keep her Did you check the alley behind the bar where she does a brisk 5 dollar blow job special? Uh, noticed that its been quiet lately. Anyone seen Aine? BB Jason

Before you buy.

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Uh, noticed that its been quiet lately. Anyone seen Aine? BB Jason

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<grin Aine is in the stars…With a very handsome  local area Scottish man who wears a kilt (you cant have him Shez) who looks even sexier in pirate garb that makes him look like he should be in the Movie *Princess Bride* looking for revenge.Trained in so many paths, I hope he keeps me as a (ahem) student, forever and a day! Yes Rhyanon, he knows all about me..he knows all about you. Even if it lasted only a day, I would die happy! Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne arw photo page–by Weyland Greywolf http://members.xoom.com/celtic_farm/photo.html

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Question:

please have contact if u  are UA user…… PLEASE I need help….

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Tina; I can answer most UA questions, or point you in the right direction. What would you like to know?  - Carl Dick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – please have contact if u  are UA user…… PLEASE I need help….

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Question:

On 2-22-97 "Elaine Newman" <ENewman…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >..snip..3 Doctors at a convention talking shop, one says ‘I love doing surgery on >Artists, they are so colorful, red hearts, pink stomachs, green spleens’, >the next doctor says….snip…

Elaine,      Loved the lawyer joke!  It got me lauging at 7:30 am, & that’s not easy to do!   I’ve gotta print this one out.       Lyse                                                    U,  ,U     Doggies are just kids in fur!       ==o==

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Ok, you guys love lawyer jokes so much …. What’s black and brown and looks good on a lawyer? A Rottweiler! (she says, ducking and running!) P. (praying she never needs legal representation) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ly…@aol.com (LyseB) wrote: >On 2-22-97 "Elaine Newman" <ENewman…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >>..snip..3 Doctors at a convention talking shop, one says ‘I love doing >surgery on >>Artists, they are so colorful, red hearts, pink stomachs, green spleens’, >>the next doctor says….snip… >Elaine, >     Loved the lawyer joke!  It got me lauging at 7:30 am, & that’s not >easy to do!   I’ve gotta print this one out. >      Lyse   >                                                 U,  ,U   >  Doggies are just kids in fur!       ==o==

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FOOD FOR THOUGHT?????               WOULD THAT REALLY WORK????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:18:44 -0500, PamY <den…@EQUINOX.NET> wrote: >Hi Troops! >        While we seem to be experiencing pseudo-spring here on Long Island, >others are still locked in the throes of winter, so here are a few more >day-brighteners (hopefully) for ya: >                To Tell the Truth >Guy goes out to buy a pack of cigarettes, but the store is closed so he >decides to use the vending machine at his local bar.  He goes in, orders a >beer, gets his butts and starts talking to a really gorgeous blonde.  He >has a few more beers and after a little while, he and the blonde go back to >her place.  Well, they have a grand old time, but suddenly he realizes that >it’s 3 AM and his wife’s gonna kill him, so he asks the blonde to shake >some talcum powder on his hands and he heads for home. >When he gets home, his wife is waiting up for him and she’s madder than a >wet hen!  "Where the hell have you been?" she bellows.  "Well," says he, "I >went to buy cigarettes, but the store was closed.  So I went to the bar, >used the vending machine, had a few beers, met a beautiful blonde and went >back to her apartment where we made passionate love with abandon." >"You dirty liar," screams the wife.  "You’ve been bowling again!" >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Drug Dealers and Software Developers: coincidence? >—————————      ————————— >Drug dealers                     Software developers >—————————      ————————— >Refer to their clients           Refer to their clients >as "users".                      as "users". >"The first one’s free!"          "Download a free trial version…" >Have important South-East        Have important South-East >Asian connections                Asian connections >to help move the stuff).         (to help debug the code). >Strange jargon:                  Strange jargon: >"Stick," "Rock,"                 "SCSI," "RTFM," >"Dime bag," "E".                 "Java," "ISDN". >Realize that there’s             Realize that there’s >tons of cash in the              tons of cash in the >14- to 25-year-old               14- to 25-year-old >market.                          market. >Job is assisted by the           Job is assisted by >industry’s producing             industry’s producing >newer, more potent mixes.        newer, faster machines. >Often seen in the company        Often seen in the company of >of pimps and hustlers.           marketing people and venture >                                 capitalists. >Their product causes             DOOM. Quake. SimCity. Duke Nukem 3D. >unhealthy addictions.            ’Nuff said. >Do your job well, and            Damn! Damn! DAMN!!! >you can sleep with >sexy movie stars who >depend on you. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Just cute: >        From the "Pickles" comic strip: >        "Beautiful young people are accidents of nature. >         Beautiful old people are works of art." >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Some days you’re the pigeon and >some days you’re the statue. >             PamY >Spokesmom for Jennie who has MS. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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johnc…@flash.net wrote: >FOOD FOR THOUGHT????? >              WOULD THAT REALLY WORK?????

        Nah!  I sent copies to all the wives.         P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:18:44 -0500, PamY <den…@EQUINOX.NET> wrote: >>Hi Troops! >>        While we seem to be experiencing pseudo-spring here on Long Island, >>others are still locked in the throes of winter, so here are a few more >>day-brighteners (hopefully) for ya: >>                To Tell the Truth >>Guy goes out to buy a pack of cigarettes, but the store is closed so he >>decides to use the vending machine at his local bar.  He goes in, orders a >>beer, gets his butts and starts talking to a really gorgeous blonde.  He >>has a few more beers and after a little while, he and the blonde go back to >>her place.  Well, they have a grand old time, but suddenly he realizes that >>it’s 3 AM and his wife’s gonna kill him, so he asks the blonde to shake >>some talcum powder on his hands and he heads for home. >>When he gets home, his wife is waiting up for him and she’s madder than a >>wet hen!  "Where the hell have you been?" she bellows.  "Well," says he, "I >>went to buy cigarettes, but the store was closed.  So I went to the bar, >>used the vending machine, had a few beers, met a beautiful blonde and went >>back to her apartment where we made passionate love with abandon." >>"You dirty liar," screams the wife.  "You’ve been bowling again!" >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Hi Troops!         While we seem to be experiencing pseudo-spring here on Long Island, others are still locked in the throes of winter, so here are a few more day-brighteners (hopefully) for ya:                 To Tell the Truth Guy goes out to buy a pack of cigarettes, but the store is closed so he decides to use the vending machine at his local bar.  He goes in, orders a beer, gets his butts and starts talking to a really gorgeous blonde.  He has a few more beers and after a little while, he and the blonde go back to her place.  Well, they have a grand old time, but suddenly he realizes that it’s 3 AM and his wife’s gonna kill him, so he asks the blonde to shake some talcum powder on his hands and he heads for home. When he gets home, his wife is waiting up for him and she’s madder than a wet hen!  "Where the hell have you been?" she bellows.  "Well," says he, "I went to buy cigarettes, but the store was closed.  So I went to the bar, used the vending machine, had a few beers, met a beautiful blonde and went back to her apartment where we made passionate love with abandon." "You dirty liar," screams the wife.  "You’ve been bowling again!" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Drug Dealers and Software Developers: coincidence? —————————      ————————— Drug dealers                     Software developers —————————      ————————— Refer to their clients           Refer to their clients as "users".                      as "users". "The first one’s free!"          "Download a free trial version…" Have important South-East        Have important South-East Asian connections                Asian connections to help move the stuff).         (to help debug the code). Strange jargon:                  Strange jargon: "Stick," "Rock,"                 "SCSI," "RTFM," "Dime bag," "E".                 "Java," "ISDN". Realize that there’s             Realize that there’s tons of cash in the              tons of cash in the 14- to 25-year-old               14- to 25-year-old market.                          market. Job is assisted by the           Job is assisted by industry’s producing             industry’s producing newer, more potent mixes.        newer, faster machines. Often seen in the company        Often seen in the company of of pimps and hustlers.           marketing people and venture                                  capitalists. Their product causes             DOOM. Quake. SimCity. Duke Nukem 3D. unhealthy addictions.            ’Nuff said. Do your job well, and            Damn! Damn! DAMN!!! you can sleep with sexy movie stars who depend on you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just cute:         From the "Pickles" comic strip:         "Beautiful young people are accidents of nature.          Beautiful old people are works of art." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Some days you’re the pigeon and some days you’re the statue.              PamY Spokesmom for Jennie who has MS. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Pam, I love your ‘jokes’ , and I heard a good one today that I thought I’d share too.   3 Doctors at a convention talking shop, one says ‘I love doing surgery on Artists, they are so colorful, red hearts, pink stomachs, green spleens’, the next doctor says ‘Me I love doing surgery on accountants, open them up and all their parts are numbered, makes it very easy’  the third doctor says ‘I love doing surgery on Lawyers, they have no heart, they have no guts and the head and the ass are interchangeable’ Sorry if I offended any lawyers. Elaine ENewman…@worldnet.att.net

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