Question:

"John Jones" <jiversjiv…@btopenworld.com> wrote in message

news:cmgmji$ff1$1@titan.btinternet.com… > Yes, Yes, and yes. Where’s YOUR point by the way?

If you have a gay family tree which side is the name on?

Response:

> If you have a gay family tree which side is the name on?

I thought family trees came down to having sprogs. JJ Immortalist <Reanimater_2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:j-6dnak7T8OZQhbcRVn-oQ@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "John Jones" <jiversjiv…@btopenworld.com> wrote in message > news:cmgmji$ff1$1@titan.btinternet.com… > > Yes, Yes, and yes. Where’s YOUR point by the way? > If you have a gay family tree which side is the name on?

Response:

Yes, Yes, and yes. Where’s YOUR point by the way? JJ Immortalist <Reanimater_2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:i_ydnehL0ZjAVBbcRVn-gw@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How would Gay Marriages Change these Universal Human Traditions of Family > Descent? > Kinship is the most basic principle of organizing individuals into social groups, > roles, and categories. Some form of organization based on parentage and marriage > is present in every human society. In modern industrial communities family > structures have been weakened by the dominance of the market economy and the > provision of state organized social services. However, the nuclear family > household is still the fundamental institution responsible for rearing children > and organizing consumption. In nonindustrial contexts, kinship units normally > have a much wider array of functions. They often serve as basic units of > production, political representation and even as religious bodies for the worship > of spiritual beings, who are themselves considered members of the kingroup. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/index.html > …kinship is constructed from a set of categories, groups, relationships, and > behaviours based upon culturally determined beliefs and values concerning human > biology and reproduction. Accordingly, an underlying common framework is present > but is substantially modified by culture and ideology. > Universal features of kinship systems that have been proposed include the > following: > 1. A lengthy infant maturation period that requires a major commitment from one > and usually both parents to nurture and educate dependent children, > 2. The presence of a marital bond that creates an enduring and socially regulated > sexual and domestic relationship between two or more people, > 3. A division of labor based on gender, > 4. A prohibition on intercourse and marriage between close kin, which creates a > widely articulated network of relationships between individuals related by > marriage. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/fund1.html > Unilineal Kinship and Descent > Many societies construct kinship groupings, roles, and relationships by tracing > descent exclusively through the male – patrilineal – or female – matrilineal – > line. The resulting units are called unilineal descent groups, either > patrilineages or matrilineages according to the prevailing descent rule. > Unilineal kinship institutions occur at over twice the incidence of cognatic ones > among the world’s cultures. In many societies, unilineal descent groups assume > important corporate functions such as land ownership, political representation > and mutual aid and support. > Patrilineal societies are much more common than matrilineal ones, occurring at > roughly twice the incidence and accounting for 60% of all unilineal systems and > 40% descent systems (unilineal and cognatic) thoughout the world. They may be > familiar to you from the Bible, (the "tribes" of Israel were patrilineages) and > ancient Greek and Roman family organization. Matrilineal systems are less > frequent but are still ethnographically important. The powerful West African > Ashanti kingdom developed within a matrilineal society. Accordingly, the heir to > the throne is not the king’s (Asantehene’s) own child but his sister’s son. Early > British emissaries to Ashanti learned about this family system the hard way. They > supported several of the Asantehene’s sons to be educated in England only to > realize that the allies they had so carefully cultivated were not in line to > assume the throne. > A third unilineal form, dual descent, involves the presence of significant > patrilineal and matrilineal groupings in single society. Their occurance is > relatively rare. > Cognatic Descent Systems > Unilineal kinship makes a direct and simple assignment of social statuses, > rights, and duties by confining transmission to a single descent line. By > contrast, nonunilineal, or cognatic, systems allow for the construction of social > groups and categories through any or all of an individual’s acknowledged > relatives beginning with both his/her father and mother. The open nature of > cognatic organization leads to greater complexities and wider variations than are > normally apparent in partilineal or matrilineal forms. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/unilineal/ > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/cognatic/ > Post-marital residence rules specify where a person resides after marriage and, > accordingly, influence the structure and size of household units. Anthropologists > have identified several basic rules and related domestic forms. However, > adherence to a specific residence rules involves many complications and > consequences and a firm classification of a particular society’s arrangements is > sometime ambiguous. Accordingly, the form and dynamics of household must be > understood in terms of houselhold flexibility, ideal vs actual arrangements, and > the domestic cycle. The following general patterns have been observed in varying > socieities around the world. > 1. Neolocal Residence > This system is determined by a rule that each spouse leaves his or her family of > origin and jointly forms a new household, which develops as nuclear family. This > is of course the basic pattern in modern industrial societies. > 2. Patrilocal Residence > A patrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a man remains in his father’s > household while his wife leaves her family to move in with him. As children are > born, they are added to the paternal unit. The result is a patrilocal extended > family, in which three or more generations of related men live together to form a > shallow patrilineage. An alternate designation, virilocal, refers to a simpler > rule that a wife must move to her husband’s residence. > 3. Matrilocal Residence > A matrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a woman remains in her mother’s > household while her husband leaves his family to move in with her. As children > are born, they are added to the maternal unit. The result is a matrilocal > extended family, in which three or more generations of related women live > together to form a shallow matrilineage. An alternate designation, uxorilocal, > refers to a simpler rule that a husband must move to his wife’s residence. > 4. Matrifocal Residence > A matrifocal family consists of a woman and her children and sometimes her > daughter’s children, without coresident husbands or other adult men. This pattern > is not usually an expression of a rule or cultural preference but results from > economic conditions in which a man is unable to support a family. The household > form is different from a matrilocal one, in which wives and husbands are > coresident. > 5. Avunculocal Residence > The avunculocal rule is more complicated than the previous ones, since two > residence changes are involved. Household formation begins with a virilocal rule, > placing a married woman in her husband’s household, where their children are > raised. Upon reaching maturity, the men must relocate to their mother’s brother’s > household, the actual avunculocal move. The result is an avunculocal extended > family consisting of one or more elder men, their sister’s sons, and the wives > and immature children of all the married men. > 6. Ambilocal Residence > In a ambilocal pattern a married couple decides whether to join either the > husband’s or wife’s household of origin. According to the choice made in the > previous generations, they may reside with either spouse’s father or mother. The > result is an ambilocal extended family. > 7. Natalocal Residence > The natalocal rule specifies that each partner remains with his and her own > families of residence after marriage. If children remain in their mother’s > household the result will be the formation of domestic matrilineages to which all > male and female residents belong. > http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/residence/rules.html

Response:

How would Gay Marriages Change these Universal Human Traditions of Family Descent? Kinship is the most basic principle of organizing individuals into social groups, roles, and categories. Some form of organization based on parentage and marriage is present in every human society. In modern industrial communities family structures have been weakened by the dominance of the market economy and the provision of state organized social services. However, the nuclear family household is still the fundamental institution responsible for rearing children and organizing consumption. In nonindustrial contexts, kinship units normally have a much wider array of functions. They often serve as basic units of production, political representation and even as religious bodies for the worship of spiritual beings, who are themselves considered members of the kingroup. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/index.html …kinship is constructed from a set of categories, groups, relationships, and behaviours based upon culturally determined beliefs and values concerning human biology and reproduction. Accordingly, an underlying common framework is present but is substantially modified by culture and ideology. Universal features of kinship systems that have been proposed include the following: 1. A lengthy infant maturation period that requires a major commitment from one and usually both parents to nurture and educate dependent children, 2. The presence of a marital bond that creates an enduring and socially regulated sexual and domestic relationship between two or more people, 3. A division of labor based on gender, 4. A prohibition on intercourse and marriage between close kin, which creates a widely articulated network of relationships between individuals related by marriage. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/fundamentals/fund1.html Unilineal Kinship and Descent Many societies construct kinship groupings, roles, and relationships by tracing descent exclusively through the male – patrilineal – or female – matrilineal – line. The resulting units are called unilineal descent groups, either patrilineages or matrilineages according to the prevailing descent rule. Unilineal kinship institutions occur at over twice the incidence of cognatic ones among the world’s cultures. In many societies, unilineal descent groups assume important corporate functions such as land ownership, political representation and mutual aid and support. Patrilineal societies are much more common than matrilineal ones, occurring at roughly twice the incidence and accounting for 60% of all unilineal systems and 40% descent systems (unilineal and cognatic) thoughout the world. They may be familiar to you from the Bible, (the "tribes" of Israel were patrilineages) and ancient Greek and Roman family organization. Matrilineal systems are less frequent but are still ethnographically important. The powerful West African Ashanti kingdom developed within a matrilineal society. Accordingly, the heir to the throne is not the king’s (Asantehene’s) own child but his sister’s son. Early British emissaries to Ashanti learned about this family system the hard way. They supported several of the Asantehene’s sons to be educated in England only to realize that the allies they had so carefully cultivated were not in line to assume the throne. A third unilineal form, dual descent, involves the presence of significant patrilineal and matrilineal groupings in single society. Their occurance is relatively rare. Cognatic Descent Systems Unilineal kinship makes a direct and simple assignment of social statuses, rights, and duties by confining transmission to a single descent line. By contrast, nonunilineal, or cognatic, systems allow for the construction of social groups and categories through any or all of an individual’s acknowledged relatives beginning with both his/her father and mother. The open nature of cognatic organization leads to greater complexities and wider variations than are normally apparent in partilineal or matrilineal forms. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/unilineal/ http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/descent/cognatic/ Post-marital residence rules specify where a person resides after marriage and, accordingly, influence the structure and size of household units. Anthropologists have identified several basic rules and related domestic forms. However, adherence to a specific residence rules involves many complications and consequences and a firm classification of a particular society’s arrangements is sometime ambiguous. Accordingly, the form and dynamics of household must be understood in terms of houselhold flexibility, ideal vs actual arrangements, and the domestic cycle. The following general patterns have been observed in varying socieities around the world. 1. Neolocal Residence This system is determined by a rule that each spouse leaves his or her family of origin and jointly forms a new household, which develops as nuclear family. This is of course the basic pattern in modern industrial societies. 2. Patrilocal Residence A patrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a man remains in his father’s household while his wife leaves her family to move in with him. As children are born, they are added to the paternal unit. The result is a patrilocal extended family, in which three or more generations of related men live together to form a shallow patrilineage. An alternate designation, virilocal, refers to a simpler rule that a wife must move to her husband’s residence. 3. Matrilocal Residence A matrilocal rule specifies that, upon marriage, a woman remains in her mother’s household while her husband leaves his family to move in with her. As children are born, they are added to the maternal unit. The result is a matrilocal extended family, in which three or more generations of related women live together to form a shallow matrilineage. An alternate designation, uxorilocal, refers to a simpler rule that a husband must move to his wife’s residence. 4. Matrifocal Residence A matrifocal family consists of a woman and her children and sometimes her daughter’s children, without coresident husbands or other adult men. This pattern is not usually an expression of a rule or cultural preference but results from economic conditions in which a man is unable to support a family. The household form is different from a matrilocal one, in which wives and husbands are coresident. 5. Avunculocal Residence The avunculocal rule is more complicated than the previous ones, since two residence changes are involved. Household formation begins with a virilocal rule, placing a married woman in her husband’s household, where their children are raised. Upon reaching maturity, the men must relocate to their mother’s brother’s household, the actual avunculocal move. The result is an avunculocal extended family consisting of one or more elder men, their sister’s sons, and the wives and immature children of all the married men. 6. Ambilocal Residence In a ambilocal pattern a married couple decides whether to join either the husband’s or wife’s household of origin. According to the choice made in the previous generations, they may reside with either spouse’s father or mother. The result is an ambilocal extended family. 7. Natalocal Residence The natalocal rule specifies that each partner remains with his and her own families of residence after marriage. If children remain in their mother’s household the result will be the formation of domestic matrilineages to which all male and female residents belong. http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/residence/rules.html

Response:

Question:

You can buy Gleim CPA audio CDs… They are pretty much what you are looking for. SAM

Response:

Try "Taxman" by George Harrison… If you want to work for one of the major accounting firms, try "Do You Believe in Magic?" by the Cowsills…

Now that I like! P Jan

Response:

I would like to be better at accounting but have a hard time reading books. Does anyone know of a MP3 CD that might have it or have one I can download. Thanks

Try "Taxman" by George Harrison… If you want to work for one of the major accounting firms, try "Do You Believe in Magic?" by the Cowsills…

Response:

I would like to be better at accounting but have a hard time reading books. Does anyone know of a MP3 CD that might have it or have one I can download. Thanks

Response:

Not to be rude, but do you have a problem with writing and working word problems too? Even for fundamentals of accounting, there are some things you cannot learn strictly from auditory education. Perhaps you should see if accounting DVDs are available. Jan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to be better at accounting but have a hard time reading books. Does anyone know of a MP3 CD that might have it or have one I can download. Thanks

Response:

Not to be rude, but do you have a problem with writing and working word problems too? Even for fundamentals of accounting, there are some things you cannot learn strictly from auditory education. Perhaps you should see if accounting DVDs are available. Jan

That must be what he means,  it ’sounds’ funny – accounting MP3  (pirated!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to be better at accounting but have a hard time reading books. Does anyone know of a MP3 CD that might have it or have one I can download. Thanks

Response:

Question:

May I suggest that you restrict your responses to just one newsgroup, and if you want to reply to the other groups too you can add them in the copies line ("Cc:") in the address.  Even better, write your response to just one group and send to the other group in seperate posts — you can just cut and paste for the other posts. Tina "%" <surfs@uniserve> wrote in message

news:103v4gq1hk7ld14@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> LET’S DO THE CROSS POST AGAIN

Response:

OK. Responding to a lot of comments here. First:  HAVE ANY OF YOU READ THE BOOK, even??? IQ tests test math and verbal aptitude as well as general, left brain stuff. It does not test right brained intelligence. I call left brained thinking logical.  You know — this, that, thus, therefore.  And right brained thinking (sometimes called intuitive), I call reasoning, because you conclude something for good reasons, but they are not necessarily linear. By the way, I mention my IQ results, but I don’t think intelligence is the best measure of success potential. Emotional Intelligence does require skills, but I think mostly it requires willingness and work.  Most of that work involves paying attention to yourself honestly — being self aware, controlling impulses, including rage and including the impulse to reject new information that changes your view of yourself and the world.  It involves not berating people who believe differently from you.  It involves social deftness, motivation, and empathy. It also involves having sympathy and still doing what’s needed. There is no such thing as "EQ".  We are talking about intelligence.  I’d define it as knowing how to process inform, though the military would define Intelligence as just information.  It is not a quotient that you measure and be done with, and can’t change that much, though you can choose how to use it best.  It’s not like determining how much sun your skin can absorb without dire risk of skin cancer.  I’m of Scandinavian stock and my quotient is used up.  Darker skinned people could safely absorb more in a lifetime. IQ can be measured too and doesn’t change much, though Emotional Intellegence, or skill or maturity, will greatly change how effectively you can use your IQ to live well both internally and externally. Most people can develope Emotional Intelligence, though some have to work harder to do it than others do, because they just have less aptitude for it. Haven’t we all met that type?  The ones who not only have very little health y emotional developement, but don’t even seem able to see it.  That, from what I’ve seen, has more to do with how your persanality is hard wired, or from psychological trauma.. Regarding some of Mxs’s comments………….Attributing Emotional Intelligence to general intelligence and experience doesn’t work.  You can have a lot of very useless or even erroneous experience.  Think of all the Blacks in the South who all the Whites knew, from experience, were all stupid and sub-human. ……….Reading someone’s expression is not it, either.  People often "put on a face" very successfully.  It’s taking the next step, adding what you can learn or figure out about the situation, and being very sharp about inconsistancies between the the hidden signs and the normally visible things.  And it takes a lot of self knowledge, and some humility to do that too……….  And I find it amusing that you are telling me that people without general intelligence or who don’t believe it can be measure and that it matters are the ones who believe in Emotional Intelligence.  LOL! Tina "Mxsmanic" <mxsma…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:2aer309auejktq6grrojgrrhbcq88pb1jf@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Christina Peterson writes: > > Even disabled with severe Depression the tests put me > > over 135, and tell me my math is outstanding … > IQ tests do not test math skills. > > Emotional intelligence is a skill involving making sense of > > emotional experiences, and does not rely on IQ. > It relies mostly on hype, actually. > — > Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

OB writes: > I think you’ll find that some > people who are highly intelligent when it comes to e.g. solving > mathematical problems will be found to be retards when it comes to > interpreting the facial expressions, gestures and verbal intonation of > others.

Perceiving these things is correlated with intelligence–but interpreting them is simply a matter of acquired knowledge through experience.  So an inexperienced but intelligent person will see them all but may misinterpret them.  A stupid but experienced person may not see them as easily but will consistently give them the correct interpretation. So the interpretation is not "emotional intelligence," but simply experience.  And since intelligent people are often marginalized by their high intelligence (if they are far enough above average), they tend to be socially inexperienced.  But it’s not a form of intelligence at all. The error is in thinking that "emotional intelligence" is built in in the way that general intelligence is.  In fact, it’s just a form of experience and acquired knowledge, and it is neither built in nor does it have anything to do with intelligence. > As I already pointed out, even current IQ testing > is based on some quite arbitrary premises (e.g. that the mean scores > of both sexes should be equal, regardless of how this parity is > achieved).

As it happens, the mean scores are essentially equal for the two sexes. The same is not true for different ethnic groups, though. — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

Michaela writes: > I would have thought you would understand the value > of emotional intelligence.

Things that do not exist are not generally of any great value. — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

Mxsmanic <mxsma…@hotmail.com> spewed forth most vilely news:hl3v30h4mmojchho7dm0hsb5prkfeq7bi7@4ax.com: > Michaela writes: >> I would have thought you would understand the value >> of emotional intelligence. > Things that do not exist are not generally of any great value.

Touche.

Response:

Mxsmanic <mxsma…@hotmail.com> spewed forth most vilely news:hl3v30h4mmojchho7dm0hsb5prkfeq7bi7@4ax.com: > Michaela writes: >> I would have thought you would understand the value >> of emotional intelligence. > Things that do not exist are not generally of any great value.

It seems as though many can’t understand that fads are a part of medicine & psychology.

Response:

LET’S DO THE CROSS POST AGAIN

Response:

"%" <surfs@uniserve> spewed forth most vilely news:103v4gq1hk7ld14@corp.supernews.com: > LET’S DO THE CROSS POST AGAIN

Do we shake our hips? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

"Christina Peterson" <tinapet…@yahoo.com> spewed forth most vilely news:1077873723.165001@prawn: > Dunno, but I bet you wish you were smart enough to get one.

I think my "lame retort" warning sign is flashing.

Response:

Mxsmanic <mxsma…@hotmail.com> escribi

Question:

1.  The most obvious plan would be to dump the Liberal leadership of the party. Additionally… 2. Hire Rush Limbaugh as a political consultant. 3.  Develop a National Policy that does not include sniveling and whining. 4.  Propose Lower Taxes 5.  Abandon socialist ideals 6.  Auction the head of Bill Clinton to the highest bidder. (No not that head) 7.  Kill Osama 8.  Sell Hillary to a Harem 9.  Dump Gore 10. Join the Republican Party.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, Jerry, what’s the democrat plan to deal with this problem? The dems CAN solve problems, can’t they? What’s the plan? Are the democrats going to whine this problem away? Nov. 27, Washington Post "Major industries such as accounting, aerospace, commercial banking, defense, HMOs and pharmaceuticals have abandoned their tradition of bipartisan campaign contributions in favor of a commitment to the GOP, a trend that could deepen the problems of a Democratic Party rocked by this month’s elections. AN ANALYSIS of political donations by industry groups shows that over the past decade, 19 major sectors have shifted from a roughly 50-50 split between the two main parties r in some cases, a slightly pro-Democratic tilt to a solid alignment with the Republican

Response:

Ok, Jerry, what’s the democrat plan to deal with this problem?

I’m moving to Vancouver. Darren S.

Response:

Question:

would listen: I don’t recall the spit shine as particularly resilient.  Once out of boot camp/basic training, the troops I knew kept one set of boots for inspection only– the spit shined version.  Another pair was for daily wear and still another set for occasional wear– it might have been the former "inspection" version.

Unless you were unfortunate enough to be at a garrison run by a Russian-born SF Colonel.  If he caught you anywhere on post without a spit-shine you and your supervisor had some serious explaining to do.  I can still hear him calling across the PX, "Boots!" — Todd Stephens

Response:

I think this thread is fairly ridiculous. As if the determining factor in selecting an employee will be the level of " spit shine " on the job applicant’s black shoes !!! I almost couldn’t believe this thread was even on here. As long as you don’t wear sneakers and you wear nice shoes that are clean, don’t agonize over the level of spit shine on your shoes. For pete’s sake. Next there will be someone asking the best way to shine a belt buckle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – External appearances often heavily influence employment decisions. Accounting jobs and interviews are not exceptions.  A "neat appearance" includes properly shined shoes.  Here is a link which explains in detail how to "spit shine" ones shoes: http://www.stompersboots.com/extra/spitshine.txt Should be required university reading.  ;-) A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

Response:

I think this thread is fairly ridiculous. As if the determining factor in selecting an employee will be the level of " spit shine " on the job applicant’s black shoes !!! I almost couldn’t believe this thread was even on here.

You can’t stomach a bit of OT frivolity? Next there will be someone asking the best way to shine a belt buckle.

Get some Brasso and a _lot_ of elbow grease. — Todd Stephens

Response:

Yep, Brasso will do it. Annamarie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think this thread is fairly ridiculous. As if the determining factor in selecting an employee will be the level of " spit shine " on the job applicant’s black shoes !!! I almost couldn’t believe this thread was even on here. You can’t stomach a bit of OT frivolity? Next there will be someone asking the best way to shine a belt buckle. Get some Brasso and a _lot_ of elbow grease. — Todd Stephens

Response:

I think the best advice someone needs to get before an interview is the following: If you interview for an accounting job, find out as much as you can about the place’s culture before you decide to interview or to accept a job offer. If the place has had a ton of turnovers, don’t even think about working there. And if you can ( and I don’t know how possible this is ), try to see if you can talk to former employees of the place or even some current ones that will talk freely. All the spit shine in the world won’t matter if you go to work for an abusive asshole. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – External appearances often heavily influence employment decisions. Accounting jobs and interviews are not exceptions.  A "neat appearance" includes properly shined shoes.  Here is a link which explains in detail how to "spit shine" ones shoes: http://www.stompersboots.com/extra/spitshine.txt Should be required university reading.  ;-) A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think this thread is fairly ridiculous. As if the determining factor in selecting an employee will be the level of " spit shine " on the job applicant’s black shoes !!! I almost couldn’t believe this thread was even on here. You can’t stomach a bit of OT frivolity? Next there will be someone asking the best way to shine a belt buckle. Get some Brasso and a _lot_ of elbow grease.

During my hitch USAF belt buckles had to be satin finish (aluminum), no shine allowed.  If it shined you had to buy a new one, $0.75 at the time. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

During my hitch USAF belt buckles had to be satin finish (aluminum), no shine allowed.  If it shined you had to buy a new one, $0.75 at the time.

Army buckles are brass and they had to be very shiny.  You either cheated and bought the "sta-brite" brand (which I did) or you spent hours trying to get the initial layer of laquer off the issued buckles just so you could get to the metal underneath to shine it. — Todd Stephens

Response:

But I doubt if many candidates for accounting jobs wear brass buckled belts to their interviews.  Meanwhile have asked a human resources responsible on her view concerning candidates’ shoe shine.  She replied that having clean, well cared for hands is in her view even more important.  Dirty shoes would be bad but a mirror shine is not required. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Honduras Nazi genetic Ft. Bragg propaganda sentiero luminoso fissionable

Response:

During my hitch USAF belt buckles had to be satin finish (aluminum), no shine allowed.  If it shined you had to buy a new one, $0.75 at the time. Army buckles are brass and they had to be very shiny.  You either cheated and bought the "sta-brite" brand (which I did) or you spent hours trying to get the initial layer of laquer off the issued buckles just so you could get to the metal underneath to shine it.

We always thought the Army had a proper military uniform, while our’s was something the Sec. USAF had gotten from Greyhound’s bargain store. To this day, I remember the stink about crew neck T-shirts.  Had to go out and buy those damn’d V-neck undershirts because some staff turkey had decided that a "modern uniform" shouldn’t show a man’s undershirt. Our motto was: "How can you soar with eagles, when you have to work for turkey’s." — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

But I doubt if many candidates for accounting jobs wear brass buckled belts to their interviews.  Meanwhile have asked a human resources responsible on her view concerning candidates’ shoe shine.  She replied that having clean, well cared for hands is in her view even more important.  Dirty shoes would be bad but a mirror shine is not required.

"..clean, well cared for hands…." hmmm, disturbing….. might want to talk to a Freudian about that one…. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

To this day, I remember the stink about crew neck T-shirts.  Had to go out and buy those damn’d V-neck undershirts because some staff turkey had decided that a "modern uniform" shouldn’t show a man’s undershirt.

Oddly enough, that is precisely what we often made fun of the AF guys for. I don’t see how hair coming up through one’s collar looks more professional than a plain white t-shirt.  At least everyone looks the same that way (isn’t that what a "uniform" is all about?) — Todd Stephens

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Popular rumor at the time was that Gen. Ryan’s wife liked to see hair on men’s chests. Unpopular decisions at the Air Staff, such as the T-Shirt thing, tended to undermine respect for the Officer Corp.  The 1960’s and 1970’s was not a good time for the USAF.  AIR, the reason was they were looking for "managers" rather than leaders and ended up with a very ineffective group of officers.  The problems at the top tended to trickle down…….  In retrospect, it was a rather weird organization. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To this day, I remember the stink about crew neck T-shirts.  Had to go out and buy those damn’d V-neck undershirts because some staff turkey had decided that a "modern uniform" shouldn’t show a man’s undershirt. Oddly enough, that is precisely what we often made fun of the AF guys for. I don’t see how hair coming up through one’s collar looks more professional than a plain white t-shirt.  At least everyone looks the same that way (isn’t that what a "uniform" is all about?) — Todd Stephens

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the best advice someone needs to get before an interview is the following: If you interview for an accounting job, find out as much as you can about the place’s culture before you decide to interview or to accept a job offer. If the place has had a ton of turnovers, don’t even think about working there. And if you can ( and I don’t know how possible this is ), try to see if you can talk to former employees of the place or even some current ones that will talk freely. All the spit shine in the world won’t matter if you go to work for an abusive asshole. External appearances often heavily influence employment decisions. Accounting jobs and interviews are not exceptions.  A "neat appearance" includes properly shined shoes.  Here is a link which explains in detail how to "spit shine" ones shoes: http://www.stompersboots.com/extra/spitshine.txt Should be required university reading.  ;-) A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

Mike, of course you are correct but haven’t you, like yours truly, often observed that appearances count more than reality.  In German one says: "Kleider machen Leute." (Clothes make people.)  In French the saying goes: "C’est l’habit qui fait le moine."  (It’s the frock that makes the monk.) Whether we like it or not, first appearances usually "program" ones interlocutors.  With the advent of photography and, moreso, television, this tendency of human behaviour has become even more dominant.  Only "telegenic" candidates have a chance to win elections. Rather than fight the irrational reality of an epidemic known as "mankind", accounting job candidates should face it – and spit shine their shoes for interviews.  As well as learn much about the employer.  Does one exclude the other?  Does a pinch of humour harm a serious subject?  Job interview techniques might become, to paraphrase Nietzsche, a "froehliche Wissenschaft" – a frolicking science. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

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I think this thread is fairly ridiculous. As if the determining factor in selecting an employee will be the level of " spit shine " on the job applicant’s black shoes !!! I almost couldn’t believe this thread was even on here. As long as you don’t wear sneakers and you wear nice shoes that are clean, don’t agonize over the level of spit shine on your shoes. For pete’s sake. Next there will be someone asking the best way to shine a belt buckle.

This coming from a guy who has been complaining about not being able to find a job…hmmm.

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p.s. re: polishing rags.  When I started doing spit shines I, and most of the barracks, used cotton balls.

Yes, cotton balls (wet ones) were all we used for the final shine.  We found cloth diapers to be the softest material out there for general application. The trouble was that you can scarcely find cloth diapers anymore. — Todd Stephens

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all who would listen: Todd, how does one go about using the lighter method?  Would a gas lighter do the job?  It is preferable to the hair dryer method?

I have used Zippo lighters as well as cheap, disposable ones.  The trick is to find the right distance from the boot to hold the lighter, otherwise, as Ron pointed out, you can char it.  If you really have the polish heaped on you also run the risk of igniting the whole mess.  We never bothered with cleaning off old polish. In fact, I always felt the more base coat, the better. Other than a good cleaning with saddle soap, we didn’t do any stripping. Some people may have, but their boots never looked any better. The real key is to just keep doing it.  After a few months of weekly shines, the polish really thickens and starts to look almost like a lacquer. — Todd Stephens

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – all who would listen: Todd, how does one go about using the lighter method?  Would a gas lighter do the job?  It is preferable to the hair dryer method? I have used Zippo lighters as well as cheap, disposable ones.  The trick is to find the right distance from the boot to hold the lighter, otherwise, as Ron pointed out, you can char it.  If you really have the polish heaped on you also run the risk of igniting the whole mess.  We never bothered with cleaning off old polish. In fact, I always felt the more base coat, the better. Other than a good cleaning with saddle soap, we didn’t do any stripping. Some people may have, but their boots never looked any better. The real key is to just keep doing it.  After a few months of weekly shines, the polish really thickens and starts to look almost like a lacquer. — Todd Stephens

I agree that the stripping never impressed me either. One caveat, if you build the base up too thick, it will crack.  A cracked base (rare occurrence, very few ever get the base that thick) was the only reason I could see for doing the strip. If I was doing it today, I would go with the hair dryer instead of the Zippo. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

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all who would listen:

p.s. re: polishing rags.  When I started doing spit shines I, and most of the barracks, used cotton balls. Later I cam to prefer any well washed cotton cloth.  As long as it was soft. Most of the time I used old cotton T-shirts and old cotton handkerchiefs. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

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I remember being around these discussions when my son was active in the Civil Air Patrol. The cadets were always looking for an easier way to get that high shine on their boots. One cadet (always looking for the easiest and laziest way for everything) found a spray that would instantly put a high shine on his shoes. The drawback was that if anything touched them there was a scuff mark. We went to drill competition and he had to make sure that nothing touched them before inspection. What a mess. In the end, nothing works better than the old spit shine with basic Kiwi. Some would use the Parade Gloss as a final application, but my son prefered the basic Kiwi and cotton balls. I am going to have to send this link to my son. Annamarie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – all who would listen: Todd, what is your alternative recommendation?  Is there a link which explains it in detail?  Which polish is better than e. g. Parade Gloss for the final mirror shine? I always used regular Kiwi black polish for both the base coat(s) and the final shine.  Most people in the Army did.  Another problem with the Parade Gloss is that it is a slightly different shade of black than the standard Kiwi.  Should you use the standard for the base and then the Parade Gloss for the final shine, it tends to give a cloudy or hazy appearance.  The regualr Kiwi polish gives a much deeper black.  OTOH, I used the Parade Gloss for the base coat on occasion _because_ it had more wax in it.  Of course, I would use a cigarette lighter to "burn in" the polish. For the edges of the soles, there is a product called Edge Dressing that works much better than polish.  You simply brush it on and let it dry. Polish applied to the edges never completely dries in my experience and is a magnet for sand and dirt. — Todd Stephens

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all who would listen: Todd, what is your alternative recommendation?  Is there a link which explains it in detail?  Which polish is better than e. g. Parade Gloss for the final mirror shine?

I always used regular Kiwi black polish for both the base coat(s) and the final shine.  Most people in the Army did.  Another problem with the Parade Gloss is that it is a slightly different shade of black than the standard Kiwi.  Should you use the standard for the base and then the Parade Gloss for the final shine, it tends to give a cloudy or hazy appearance.  The regualr Kiwi polish gives a much deeper black.  OTOH, I used the Parade Gloss for the base coat on occasion _because_ it had more wax in it.  Of course, I would use a cigarette lighter to "burn in" the polish. For the edges of the soles, there is a product called Edge Dressing that works much better than polish.  You simply brush it on and let it dry. Polish applied to the edges never completely dries in my experience and is a magnet for sand and dirt. — Todd Stephens

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Tried the procedure described in the link today with a 20-year old pair of Florscheim imperial plain toe black horsehide shoes, which BTW I still regularly wear.  Have no access to Kiwi Parade Gloss so I just used normal Swiss black paste polish and a hair dryer.  My observations would be: 1. do a thorough job with the mineral spirits to remove former polish 2. warm the shoes with the hair dryer before applying the first polish    coat 3. use thin polish coats, completely rubbing them into the leather 4. really heat the polish with the hair dryer to burn it in, i. e. go    slowly and keep the dryer very close to the shoe 5. the last part, wet polishing with very little paste, is the most difficult 6. result – astonishing If I were looking for another accounting job, the spit shine would certainly get it for me.  :-) Todd, how does one go about using the lighter method?  Would a gas lighter do the job?  It is preferable to the hair dryer method? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": counter-intelligence cryptographic World Trade Center Honduras quiche

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tried the procedure described in the link today with a 20-year old pair of Florscheim imperial plain toe black horsehide shoes, which BTW I still regularly wear.  Have no access to Kiwi Parade Gloss so I just used normal Swiss black paste polish and a hair dryer.  My observations would be: 1. do a thorough job with the mineral spirits to remove former polish 2. warm the shoes with the hair dryer before applying the first polish    coat 3. use thin polish coats, completely rubbing them into the leather 4. really heat the polish with the hair dryer to burn it in, i. e. go    slowly and keep the dryer very close to the shoe 5. the last part, wet polishing with very little paste, is the most difficult 6. result – astonishing If I were looking for another accounting job, the spit shine would certainly get it for me.  :-) Todd, how does one go about using the lighter method?  Would a gas lighter do the job?  It is preferable to the hair dryer method?

The problem with the open flame (used in pre hair dryer days) was that you could burn the leather.  If it didn’t actually char it, it could lead to cracking of the leather and ruining your the shoe. In the pre hair dryer days the zippo lighter was used to speed up the process of getting the wax evenly into the leather.  The same thing happens if you regularly brush shine your shoes over a month of two, it builds up that even base coat that fills the pores and grain of the leather. Back when (I had nine months of the old ATC in the USAF, when spit shine was mandatory uniform policy), there was nothing other than regular Kiwi polish.  I never found anything better, nor did I find anyone that had anything better. One trick, given to me by a career NCO that I never could get to a refrigerator to try, was to put the shoes in the refrigerator over night so that the smooth base coat would be very hard for the spit coat. With the wing tips, it is very time consuming to build the base coat on the leather grain.  You only spit shine the toe cap.  After doing it for a while you end up having to use a toothpick to clean out the ornamental holes on the toe cap.  I did it for a while, it looks very nice. *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

all who would listen: External appearances often heavily influence employment decisions. Accounting jobs and interviews are not exceptions.  A "neat appearance" includes properly shined shoes.  Here is a link which explains in detail how to "spit shine" ones shoes: http://www.stompersboots.com/extra/spitshine.txt Should be required university reading.  ;-)

I have to disagree with a few of the author’s points. Do NOT use Kiwi Parade Gloss or any other high wax content polish. This only makes the process take 10 times as long as it is harder to work the thicker polishes into the pores of the leather.  Also, a cloth diaper is far superior to an old t-shirt for both applying polish and buffing it. — Todd Stephens

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would listen: External appearances often heavily influence employment decisions. Accounting jobs and interviews are not exceptions.  A "neat appearance" includes properly shined shoes.  Here is a link which explains in detail how to "spit shine" ones shoes: http://www.stompersboots.com/extra/spitshine.txt Should be required university reading.  ;-) I have to disagree with a few of the author’s points. Do NOT use Kiwi Parade Gloss or any other high wax content polish. This only makes the process take 10 times as long as it is harder to work the thicker polishes into the pores of the leather.  Also, a cloth diaper is far superior to an old t-shirt for both applying polish and buffing it.

If I understood the article correctly, the last polish is only to get the mirror shine after having worked 4 layers of normal polish into the leather.  The author does say that the mirror part takes some time. Todd, what is your alternative recommendation?  Is there a link which explains it in detail?  Which polish is better than e. g. Parade Gloss for the final mirror shine? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": jihad PLO arrangements ammunition Serbian FBI Semtex Ortega radar Soviet

Response:

External appearances often heavily influence employment decisions. Accounting jobs and interviews are not exceptions.  A "neat appearance" includes properly shined shoes.  Here is a link which explains in detail how to "spit shine" ones shoes: http://www.stompersboots.com/extra/spitshine.txt Should be required university reading.  ;-) A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Nazi AK-47 cryptographic Uzi Arafat domestic disruption genetic Iraq FSF

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Question:

"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:PXF69.3895$xL5.15913@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It depends on the woman, I guess. I wouldn’t like your arrangement but > that’s ok we’re both happy with the arrangements we do have with our > husbands. > There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What > would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you > have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to > your marital funds if you need to get to them? > Also, does you husband keep good records so you’d be able to easily find out > what bills needed to be paid, assuming you have access to the funds to pay > them? > Even if one partner consistently makes all the decisions and handles the > day-to-day financial dealings it’s important for both partners to be able to > perform these roles in the event of an emergency. Just something to think > about, Lola. > Tai > (extremely well organised in this area)

This is exactly what happened to my mother.  My father had only his name on all the bills and when he died, she was totally clueless about the finances. It took a long time to figure out the bills and then she had to call all the creditors to get things switched to her name.  You wouldn’t believe how hard that was to do.  She even had to pay a deposit for electricity since she hadn’t been on the bill and they didn’t trust her credit.

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Tai wrote: > There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What > would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you > have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to > your marital funds if you need to get to them?

 This is definintely a concern in our relationship.  I do all the finances since I’m good at it.  DH wouldn’t be.  But I keep very detailed records, both of our names are on everything, and I go over things with DH weekly or every other week so that he knows what’s going on and could take care of things if necessary. Cari — .sigfree

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kali wrote: > "kuranes" <kura…@starpower.net> wrote in message > news:3D5AEE6E.63DD1327@starpower.net… > > scullytac wrote: > > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just > begun > > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > > This is the biggest load of crap I’ve ever read.  It’s basically > non-consensual > > Domination/submission in a nutshell.  (And didn’t the author’s husband > leave > > her.)  It starts with the flawed assumption that every man wants a woman > who > > submits and gets worse from there. > > Cari > It’s submission only in the sense of "topping from the bottom."  The woman > is supposed to manipulate her husband into doing things.  The example of > bills is that no matter what he says, she’s supposed to refuse to do them > and insist that he do them instead.  That doesn’t sound submissive or > surrendered to me at all.

I was considering the woman to be the Dominant in this case. Non-consensually. Cari — .sigfree

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Stephen Gibson <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote: > (Our clutter problem prevents the three of us > from socializing together at home. > There is no room with the space for three to sit. > Our family meetings tend to happen in the car.)

I snipped the rest of your very interesting post, Gale, because this part grabbed me.  Do you think the clutter is caused by a subconscious wish to avoid each other? Or is the avoiding caused be the clutter?  If you decluttered would you spend more time together?  Or is it just a symptom.  I know you probably don’t know the answers to these questions!

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scullytac <scully…@comcast.net> wrote: > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting.

I haven’t read it, but I find some of the concepts interesting.  I don’t subscribe to the gender role aspect, but the attitude of evincing respect, not being controlling, not nagging, etc. seems very positive to me – I just think it ought to be mutual. BTW, the thought of my H doing the finances would be funny if it weren’t so scary.  *NOT* his forte.

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I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" We both feel bad after these comments. "Emma Anne" <m…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1fgyeom.g2r92e1ja3cl5N%mbjq@earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> scullytac <scully…@comcast.net> wrote: > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > I haven’t read it, but I find some of the concepts interesting.  I don’t > subscribe to the gender role aspect, but the attitude of evincing > respect, not being controlling, not nagging, etc. seems very positive to > me – I just think it ought to be mutual. > BTW, the thought of my H doing the finances would be funny if it weren’t > so scary.  *NOT* his forte.

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Gale wrote: > scullytac wrote: > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… > Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, …

Oops.  I meant Laura _Doyle_.   (Nothing personal, Mr. Nicholson. — Gale

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Gale <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:3D5AFE33.C1CC63B2@earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> scullytac wrote: > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… > Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, seems to be based on a > paradox, that a wife can get what she wants from her husband by > choosing to not control him.  These are fighting words to many > feminists.  But there are similar paradoxes in Harville Hendrix’s > relatively gender-neutral model of marital dynamics, where I am > told (and believe) that focusing on meeting my partner’s emotional > needs first is the path to getting a reciprocal focus from her. > I therefore do not find Boyle’s book to be fundamentally wrong. > Here is a partial summary, in the author’s words: >   The basic principles of a surrendered wife are that she: >   . Relinquishes inappropriate control of her husband >   . Respects her husband’s thinking >   . Receives his gifts graciously and expresses gratitude for him >   . Expresses what she wants without trying to control him >   . Relies on him to handle household finances >   . Focuses on her own self-care and fulfillment >   A surrendered wife is: >   . Vulnerable where she used to be a nag >   . Trusting where she used to be controlling >   . Respectful where she used to be demeaning >   . Grateful where she used to be dissatisfied >   . Has faith where she once had doubt. > (See URL "http://www.surrenderedwife.com/chapterone.html".)

That’s my understanding of the concept, too, Gale.  Also, if *both* partners behave towards each other in the ’surrendered’ way then they’ll probably do just fine.  The finances bit is weird, though!  Both should be involved in budgeting and other financial decisions and whoever has the best accounting skillsand/or greatest amount of time and interet should pay the bills. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife used to study and apply similar techniques.  (She did not > read Laura Boyle’s book, but a similar one called "Quest For > Queenship" written by an LDS woman.)  Since then we have been > through a lot of trouble, with mutual abusiveness, but IMO the > two are not directly connected. > Surrendering ones control is not IMO an acceptable substitute for > self respect, but neither is desperately grasping for control. > The concepts in Boyle’s book are somewhat similar to what I > encountered in Christian mens groups like Promise Keepers. > (I listened but was not a joiner.)  They are based on assumptions > of differences in emotional temperments between men and women > in general.  One key assumption is that a man is more likely to > respond to feeling out of control by acting out destructively > than a woman is.

Yes, I don’t see that as being a given, either. There may be significant differences in the types of destructive behaviour chosen but I don’t see men as any more or less inclined to destructive behaviour as are women. > I don’t buy into God-given gender roles, but feel that control > can become a trap for men or women.  Currently my family is > choking on angry & controlling behavior, where the three of us > take turns feeling abused and thus acting abusive.  I see a > resonance with the goal of abandoning compulsive control. > I am working toward the same goals, but using different > techniques.

You’ve been trying to get out of the cycle for a while now, Gale. Do you feel like you’ve made some progress and would you mind sharing some of the techniques you’ve tried that do seem to work? > Above all, an approach such as this can not be effective if > it is forced on a wife by her husband.

Tai

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"scullytac" <scully…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:PUB69.3313$2p2.162684@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com… > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting.

I have never read the book per se, however, I have a strong understanding of what it is about thanks to discussions much like this one. Frankly, it is how I have always lived and it works wonderfully for my DH and me.  There are times when you have to consiously make the choice to be a surrendered wife, like when you strongly DISAGREE with your DH. But in the long run it has always worked out better for me than an ugly confrontation. I don’t think the tenants of the philosophy are to manipulate your husband by a certain type of behavior.  I think what they are saying is that "if" you behave in a certain way to your husband he will WANT to do the things for you when you feel that they are important enough to ask for. Let me give you an example.  My husband makes good money.   Unfortunately, he has an ex-wife who believes that you can never pay TOO MUCH child support.  There were some legal things that went on and DH was asked to pay an additional $2,000 over and above his regular child support payment.  He felt that it was the right thing to do so he paid it.  I never said a word. Just because he makes good money doesn’t mean there aren’t other things that we could have used that money for.  I could have pitched a fit, bitched and moaned, but instead I told hime "That’s ok honey, I know that you do what you think is best for the family.  You don’t have to explain your actions to me.  I trust you."  Now, about three weeks later my computer died and I asked DH if we could buy another.  He had no problem saying "of course". I’m sure that if I’d had a pissy fit about how much money he had given to his ex-wife, he would not have been so generous when it came time to buy the new computer for me. For me and DH it is the only way to live and love and to get along.  The world is a hard enough place without having stress and disagreements in the home.  As for the finances.  Its a good thing DH wants and likes to do them. I can’t imagine what a disaster they would be if I even tried.  I never carry money or a check book with me.  He takes care of everything.  On payday, I hand my check over to him and I never see it again.  The bills get paid and there is food in the refrigerator.  What else could a woman ask for? the girl of many {surrendered) names

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On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:35:02 GMT, "scullytac" <scully…@comcast.net> wrote: >I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a >grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high >in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" >We both feel bad after these comments.

These types of comments are just plain rude regardless of who you are saying them to. My mother says rude things like this and I don’t spend a lot of time around her where I have to listen to it. Loev, Ms pants

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:4uE69.3771$xL5.14982@news-server.bigpond.net.au>… > Gale <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:3D5AFE33.C1CC63B2@earthlink.net… > > scullytac wrote: > > > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just >  begun > > > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting. > > This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… > > Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, seems to be based on a > > paradox, that a wife can get what she wants from her husband by > > choosing to not control him.  These are fighting words to many > > feminists.  But there are similar paradoxes in Harville Hendrix’s > > relatively gender-neutral model of marital dynamics, where I am > > told (and believe) that focusing on meeting my partner’s emotional > > needs first is the path to getting a reciprocal focus from her. > > I therefore do not find Boyle’s book to be fundamentally wrong. > > Here is a partial summary, in the author’s words: > >   The basic principles of a surrendered wife are that she: > >   . Relinquishes inappropriate control of her husband > >   . Respects her husband’s thinking > >   . Receives his gifts graciously and expresses gratitude for him > >   . Expresses what she wants without trying to control him > >   . Relies on him to handle household finances > >   . Focuses on her own self-care and fulfillment > >   A surrendered wife is: > >   . Vulnerable where she used to be a nag > >   . Trusting where she used to be controlling > >   . Respectful where she used to be demeaning > >   . Grateful where she used to be dissatisfied > >   . Has faith where she once had doubt. > > (See URL "http://www.surrenderedwife.com/chapterone.html".) > That’s my understanding of the concept, too, Gale.  Also, if *both* partners > behave towards each other in the ’surrendered’ way then they’ll probably do > just fine.  The finances bit is weird, though!  Both should be involved in > budgeting and other financial decisions and whoever has the best accounting > skillsand/or greatest amount of time and interet should pay the bills. > > My wife used to study and apply similar techniques.  (She did not > > read Laura Boyle’s book, but a similar one called "Quest For > > Queenship" written by an LDS woman.)  Since then we have been > > through a lot of trouble, with mutual abusiveness, but IMO the > > two are not directly connected. > > Surrendering ones control is not IMO an acceptable substitute for > > self respect, but neither is desperately grasping for control. > > The concepts in Boyle’s book are somewhat similar to what I > > encountered in Christian mens groups like Promise Keepers. > > (I listened but was not a joiner.)  They are based on assumptions > > of differences in emotional temperments between men and women > > in general.  One key assumption is that a man is more likely to > > respond to feeling out of control by acting out destructively > > than a woman is. > Yes, I don’t see that as being a given, either. There may be significant > differences in the types of destructive behaviour chosen but I don’t see men > as any more or less inclined to destructive behaviour as are women. > > I don’t buy into God-given gender roles, but feel that control > > can become a trap for men or women.  Currently my family is > > choking on angry & controlling behavior, where the three of us > > take turns feeling abused and thus acting abusive.  I see a > > resonance with the goal of abandoning compulsive control. > > I am working toward the same goals, but using different > > techniques. > You’ve been trying to get out of the cycle for a while now, Gale. Do you > feel like you’ve made some progress and would you mind sharing some of the > techniques you’ve tried that do seem to work? > > Above all, an approach such as this can not be effective if > > it is forced on a wife by her husband. > Tai

It’s hard to tell how things are going… The main thing I am doing is to not verbalize the spells of anger that I still feel.  I am learning to control them better. This is a healthy change, but my wife still is hurt deeply from the past couple of years. (I have not been very focused on the actions Hendrix recommends in "Getting the Love You Want", but his model gives me hope and a roadmap to recovery as a couple. There are times when my wife seems to feel close again. It’s hard to tell what she is doing for herself from what she is doing for me, though. I am better able to connect with my wife’s intellect, which always has impressed me. But my wife still is stuck feeling worthless deep down. This is hard to heal, even harder without her active involvement. My wife seems to be hurting herself by reliving her past hurts. She still does not want to get help. I don’t try to make ultimatums on this, though. They only make things worse. My daughter, 15, seems to be more willing to learn anger management than my wife. Unfortunately, the anger at home hurts her still. She still is pretty self-centered (largely age appropriate), but she is learning a little to be assertive when my wife (or me) throws a tantrum. She feels too responsible for our marriage’s survival. We don’t work together very well as parents because I am too focused on deflecting anger. Letting my daughter’s coments bounce off me tends to enrage my wife.  Sometimes I see my wife lose her temper at my daughter (less often than at me), and my wife expects me to "back her up". This leads me to hard choices between condoning verbal abuse or compromising parental discipline. Over the summer I have tried to get closer to my wife, and we have spent less time with our daughter. (She often overnights with a family of close friends, playmates since infancy.) She tends to distance herself from us and then blame us for her decisions to be distant. (Our clutter problem prevents the three of us from socializing together at home. There is no room with the space for three to sit. Our family meetings tend to happen in the car.) We may go back to our daughter’s therapist soon, if my wife will attend the sessions. I am definitely getting my anger under control at work. I am healing enough to be more focused on work. This is very healthy, especially with a handful of layoffs expected in our office. In short, no miracles have happened, but I have a lot more hope and more of myself back. This is limited good news.  Thanks for asking. — Gale

Response:

kuranes <kura…@starpower.net> wrote in message

news:3D5BBAD9.8884BB08@starpower.net… >  This is definintely a concern in our relationship.  I do all the finances > since I’m good at it.  DH wouldn’t be.  But I keep very detailed records, both > of our names are on everything, and I go over things with DH weekly or every > other week so that he knows what’s going on and could take care of things if > necessary.

This is what I do as well, though my husband could probably do it as well as me…well…*nearly* as well as me.  I sometimes feel like the "Queen of Lists"! Everything is spreadsheeted to death and I’m probably the only person who actually uses MSMoney. Tai

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On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:29:45 -0400, kuranes <kura…@starpower.net> wrote: >> There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What >> would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you >> have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to >> your marital funds if you need to get to them?

Well, if I suddenly died DH would have no idea what to do. He hasn’t a clue about bills, finances, accounts,  etc.  Seriously, he doesn’t even know how much the mortgage is.  I’ve asked him time and again to sit with me and allow me to explain things to him, but he claims he doesn’t care, isn’t interested, etc.  He says he works for the money, that’s his job. My job is to take care of the money.  He’s perfectly happy being oblivious about bills and such. beck — wondering if DH read the surrendered husbands book  

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<uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:LBJ69.3220$LO1.279003@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > I am definitely getting my anger under control at work. > I am healing enough to be more focused on work. > This is very healthy, especially with a handful of layoffs > expected in our office.

Best wishes with that. I think I know the industry you’re in and it’s not a good time for the employers or the employees. > In short, no miracles have happened, > but I have a lot more hope and more of myself back. > This is limited good news.  Thanks for asking.

You’re welcome. I’m glad you are optimistic and wish you well. You certainly seem to have the necessary patience even if you do have anger problems. (BTW, the anger isn’t immediately obvious from your posting style but your control is.)  Trust can take a very long time to rebuild and it seems that your wife is still quite a distance from being able to take the most positive impression of your words and actions wrt to her. It’s very unfortunate she isn’t ready to get help and also that your daughter has such a large role in her parents’ problems. I had the same thought as Emma Anne, regarding your ‘clutter’ if it is as overwhelming as you suggest. If you aren’t all naturally comfortable with clutter then it could be the result of not having the energy to do more than the bare minimum of  house work while you cope with the stress of your relationship. As part of your healing as a family could you turn making your home into a comfortable space for you all a symbolic (and very practical) act? Just a simple thing but something you could all do to get a little bit of control back in one corner of your lives. Tai

Response:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:35:33 -0700, "Kali" <ka…@hotpop.com_REMOVE> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:PXF69.3895$xL5.15913@news-server.bigpond.net.au… >> It depends on the woman, I guess. I wouldn’t like your arrangement but >> that’s ok we’re both happy with the arrangements we do have with our >> husbands. >> There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What >> would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you >> have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to >> your marital funds if you need to get to them? >> Also, does you husband keep good records so you’d be able to easily find >out >> what bills needed to be paid, assuming you have access to the funds to pay >> them? >> Even if one partner consistently makes all the decisions and handles the >> day-to-day financial dealings it’s important for both partners to be able >to >> perform these roles in the event of an emergency. Just something to think >> about, Lola. >> Tai >> (extremely well organised in this area) >This is exactly what happened to my mother.  My father had only his name on >all the bills and when he died, she was totally clueless about the finances. >It took a long time to figure out the bills and then she had to call all the >creditors to get things switched to her name.  You wouldn’t believe how hard >that was to do.  She even had to pay a deposit for electricity since she >hadn’t been on the bill and they didn’t trust her credit.

This is something that bothers me in my household arrangement.  My wife has very little involvement with our general finances.  To leave things to her is either to leave them undone altogether, or to spend so much time persuading and coaching the effort that I would rather have done it myself in the first place. I hope things would be reasonably smooth if I died, but I ought to write up some documents to make it more straightforward.  To try and keep all the finances to myself for some sort of power trip is ludicrous – only someone with severe insecurity would need that sort of buzz. Does anyone have suggestions for encouraging a transfer of responsibility ?  I’d rather be shot of all the bill-paying stuff.  So many things are shared that _someone_ has to do it, or our overall life will suffer. Thanks, ~Ian.

Response:

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:12:20 -0400, kuranes <kura…@starpower.net> wrote: >scullytac wrote: >> I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a >> grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high >> in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" >> We both feel bad after these comments. >Isn’t this common sense stuff though?  As an adult, do you want people >constantly correcting you?  Chances are, no.  So why would you do it to >someone else? >Cari

Well obviously because I know better than them !   ~I

Response:

Emma Anne wrote: > Gale <uniqg…@earthlink.net> wrote: > > (Our clutter problem prevents the three of us > > from socializing together at home. > > There is no room with the space for three to sit. > > Our family meetings tend to happen in the car.) > I snipped the rest of your very interesting post, Gale, because this > part grabbed me.  Do you think the clutter is caused by a subconscious > wish to avoid each other? Or is the avoiding caused be the clutter?  If > you decluttered would you spend more time together?  Or is it just a > symptom.  I know you probably don’t know the answers to these questions!

Our clutter overload was more or less caused by us both being depressed. I always have been a packrat, especially for books etc.  When I remember something, I want to be able to look at it.  I also bring home a lot of printed articles for my stay-at-home wife to read.  This is motivated by a desire to share interesting ideas with my wife, whose broad and unusual intellect is something I particularly admire.  (For long, she actively avoided computers and would not go online.  Recently this has changed.) We have begun to declutter the house a little, but there is a lot to get cleared — maybe 10 times what we’ve done.   As far as I am aware, there is not a desire for distance that causes our clutter.  More the opposite — I don’t start doing something practical at home because I am afraid that being busy will create emotional distance. — Gale

Response:

scullytac wrote: > I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a > grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high > in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" > We both feel bad after these comments.

Isn’t this common sense stuff though?  As an adult, do you want people constantly correcting you?  Chances are, no.  So why would you do it to someone else? Cari — .sigfree

Response:

"scullytac" <scully…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:qvS69.18699$SS.767551@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com… > I liked the part of not always correcting him. It’s good for me. He’s a > grown man. For example, I’d say…"why are you eating that? It’s very high > in fat."  Or…."The garage is a disaster, will you ever clean it?" > We both feel bad after these comments.

That’s basically just common courtesy.

Response:

Her Name Was Lola <l…@spamdump.com> wrote in message news:ajf7c3017ci@enews1.newsguy.com… > For me and DH it is the only way to live and love and to get along.  The > world is a hard enough place without having stress and disagreements in the > home.  As for the finances.  Its a good thing DH wants and likes to do them. > I can’t imagine what a disaster they would be if I even tried.  I never > carry money or a check book with me.  He takes care of everything.  On > payday, I hand my check over to him and I never see it again.  The bills get > paid and there is food in the refrigerator.  What else could a woman ask > for?

It depends on the woman, I guess. I wouldn’t like your arrangement but that’s ok we’re both happy with the arrangements we do have with our husbands. There is something that has crossed my mind when this topic comes up. What would you do if your husband died suddenly or became incapacitated? Do you have enduring powers of attorney for each other and do you have access to your marital funds if you need to get to them? Also, does you husband keep good records so you’d be able to easily find out what bills needed to be paid, assuming you have access to the funds to pay them? Even if one partner consistently makes all the decisions and handles the day-to-day financial dealings it’s important for both partners to be able to perform these roles in the event of an emergency. Just something to think about, Lola. Tai (extremely well organised in this area)

Response:

scullytac wrote: > Has anyone read this book, and if so what are your thoughts? I’ve just begun > the tapes as I drive around and I find it interesting.

This is a good question, albeit somewhat loaded… Laura Boyle’s book, The Surrendered Wife, seems to be based on a paradox, that a wife can get what she wants from her husband by choosing to not control him.  These are fighting words to many feminists.  But there are similar paradoxes in Harville Hendrix’s relatively gender-neutral model of marital dynamics, where I am told (and believe) that focusing on meeting my partner’s emotional needs first is the path to getting a reciprocal focus from her.   I therefore do not find Boyle’s book to be fundamentally wrong. Here is a partial summary, in the author’s words:   The basic principles of a surrendered wife are that she:  

Question:

I have been told that Peachtree is a good software for small businesses. We have been set up on an older DOS based system for about 8 years. Can we transfer our current files & databases into Peachtree? Does anyone know any good sites to check out more info about Peachtree or Quickbooks? How does Peachtree compare with Quickbooks? Thanks Again, Jan RGB Productions

Response:

Jan, I am a computer geek of old that is only 21 years of age.  I am a graduating senior at West Virginia University and we have been trained on the Peachtree Accounting System Software.  Peachtree is great option for small businesses that is EXTREMELY easy to get up and running (considering all of the factors in today’s businesses).  There are TONS of tutoring books out there for that software. The only problem is conversion from an old system.  The chances of a direct "importing" of the data is slim to none unless you older version was that of an older version of Peachtree, which is quite doubtful.  Sorry If you want to know more about Peachtree, go to http://www.peachtree.com/ and they have some handy stuff there for you to look through. Hope I helped a little! Bret Carr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been told that Peachtree is a good software for small businesses. We have been set up on an older DOS based system for about 8 years. Can we transfer our current files & databases into Peachtree? Does anyone know any good sites to check out more info about Peachtree or Quickbooks? How does Peachtree compare with Quickbooks? Thanks Again, Jan RGB Productions

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Question:

Sorry I missed the discussion re this Anyone want to start it up again and contribute something I live and work in a remote part of Australia and this may be an option Cheers

Response:

Sorry I missed the discussion re this

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Question:

Were oing to try IVF for the first time and are looking for guidence (ie. Clinics, Stats, etc…). Any response would be very grateful. Thank You, Pete

Response:

Were oing to try IVF for the first time and are looking for guidence (ie. Clinics, Stats, etc…). Any response would be very grateful. Thank You, Pete

Rachel Browne did some IVF hints and they can be found via: http://www.pinelandpress.com/toc.html (other good stuff at that site also) Meg F

Response:

You may want to visit our web site – In particular we have a chart that will help you look at criteria necessary for certain IVF procedures: http://www.inciid.org/chart.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Were oing to try IVF for the first time and are looking for guidence (ie. Clinics, Stats, etc…). Any response would be very grateful. Thank You, Pete

Response:

We are also goint to try IVF for the first time.  We are going to the Pacific Fertility Clinic in LA.  They have terrific success rates which are AUDITED by an outside accounting firm. We have been pleased so far. lisa

Response:

We are also goint to try IVF for the first time.  We are going to the Pacific Fertility Clinic in LA.  They have terrific success rates which are AUDITED by an outside accounting firm. We have been pleased so far. lisa

Lisa, are you going to do the 90% deal with them? We have also signed up with them. I am wondering whether to try for the access progam and get the discount or do the 90%. My only problem,my specialist here tells me is that my tubes are blocked. I already have one beautiful 5 yr old girl.Who knows how miracles happen. let me know, Alice

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are also goint to try IVF for the first time.  We are going to the Pacific Fertility Clinic in LA.  They have terrific success rates which are AUDITED by an outside accounting firm. We have been pleased so far. lisa Lisa, are you going to do the 90% deal with them? We have also signed up with them. I am wondering whether to try for the access progam and get the discount or do the 90%. My only problem,my specialist here tells me is that my tubes are blocked. I already have one beautiful 5 yr old girl.Who knows how miracles happen. let me know, Alice

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Question:

Queensbridge Houses tenants have voted for the Fruit of Islam as a paid security force. The New York City Housing Authority was considering this until, the ADL of B’nai B’rith sent out letters of opposition to the New York City Housing Authority and to Jack Kemp, Secretary of the US Department of Housing and Urban Development…

Goodness me.  Imagine my astonishment.  When housing becomes government-owned, its operation becomes politicized.  Astounding. Mind boggling.  It just hit me like a ton of bricks.  I can scarcely even breathe, I am so totally shocked. HUD employees allege that Kemp is mismanaging the HUD budget.

Give the dude some slack.  It wasn’t until recently that the Progressive Movement, may its praises be sung to the high heavens, managed to implement socialized housing on a massive scale.   With more experience, say, 75 years, it will become as wonderful as Russia is now.     Alan T. Furman         | VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!  Marrou/Lord in 92!!

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                                 CONTACT: Ray Normandeau 718 392-1267                             NYC Housing Authority Police 718-729-4199 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                Queensbridge Carnage Coverage Continues        First Machine Gunning of the week at Queensbridge Houses What is the first machine gun attack of the week at Queensbridge Houses in Long Island City, Queens is also the second shooting of the weekend at that crime plagued Housing Project. Friday September 11, 1992 saw the first shooting of the weekend which resulted in one victim. A gun was recovered by the Police. Further details were issued at that time on a computer bulletin board. Sunday September 13, 1992, multiple calls were received by 9-1-1 reporting shooting going on at Queensbridge Houses. Tenants reported bursts of machine gun fire. Several locations were given in the multiple calls. There were reports of several victims, but the arrival of police found nothing. Finally a victim was found inside 40-14 10 Street in a second floor apartment. The victim who had been hit in the torso had not wanted to wait outside for medical attention. It is unknown how many victims there really were, as parties to shoot-outs are sometimes transported out of the area by collaborators. It is known that police made several arrests and as some tenants were going to bed, police were searching the roof top of 41-16 12 Street for more perpetrators with guns. Thankfully, there has not been a publicly reported homicide at Queensbridge Houses since August 26, 1992 when a well dressed murder victim with shirt and tie was shot in the head three times in a hallway at 41-11 10th Street. The building had an unlocked lobby door. The US Department of Housing and Urban Development has stated in a letter that the New York City Housing Authority leaves lobby doors unlocked as a form of punishment for tenants. The elevator at 41-10 10th Street had been in the process of renovations since early July and some tenants took the elevator of the crime scene building to the top and then crossed the roof to 41-10 10th Street. Some tenants allege that this was done at the suggestion of Queensbridge Houses Manager Scott Krikawa. Krikawa was removed following that murder. Queensbridge Houses tenants have voted for the Fruit of Islam as a paid security force. The New York City Housing Authority was considering this until, the ADL of B’nai B’rith sent out letters of opposition to the New York City Housing Authority and to Jack Kemp, Secretary of the US Department of Housing and Urban Development in Washington. Now HUD and the NYC HA refuse to discuss this any further and the carnage continues. Perhaps if there was better accounting of money sent to the NYC HA for crime fighting in the projects, the tenants wouldn’t be seeking outside security assistance. HUD employees allege that Kemp is mismanaging the HUD budget.                                 # # #

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