Question:

My husband has concerns about me going into forensic accounting because he is worried litigation might come against me. I am, however, not going to let his concerns deter me. You see, he heard about a CPA in CA that was being sued by a former client because he chose to do prepare the F/S different from another CPA. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that in the accounting world and especially here in the US where people are "sue-happy" there will always be that possibility that I could end up being sued. After all, the Big 4 are always in some litigation or another. What I would like to know is how many of you have ever been tangled up in a litigation regarding your employers or even just you. If you would like to reply to my email addy it IS correct. Well, you could be sued "here in the US of A" if you are in the retail sales business, specifically ladies clothing, because, that dress really DOES make her look fat. Never been sued *knocking on my monitor screen*, but it was threatened once by a disgruntled client.  The fact that he didn’t do anything I had suggested he needed to do (like pay quarterly taxes) never seemed to phase him in his quest to determine who was at fault because he owed not only the tax, but a penalty to boot. Most issues can be resolved in advance through a tight engagement letter, a good liability policy (from a great company), and common sense. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

    My husband has concerns about me going into forensic accounting because he is worried litigation might come against me. I am, however, not going to let his concerns deter me. You see, he heard about a CPA in CA that was being sued by a former client because he chose to do prepare the F/S different from another CPA. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that in the accounting world and especially here in the US where people are "sue-happy" there will always be that possibility that I could end up being sued. After all, the Big 4 are always in some litigation or another. What I would like to know is how many of you have ever been tangled up in a litigation regarding your employers or even just you. If you would like to reply to my email addy it IS correct.     TIA     Janice     I have been preparing tax returns since 1963, have been a CPA since 1974, and have been teaching accounting and tax subjects for 20 years and have never been sued by anyone for anything related to any of these.  I do all of these things to the best of my ability and so far so good!     Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation      I think most small accounting firms are not sued because they don’t audit SEC registered companies with lots of shareholders.   Tax work doesn’t seem as lucrative or have the "big pockets"  as public audits.

Response:

  My husband has concerns about me going into forensic accounting because he is worried litigation might come against me. I am, however, not going to let his concerns deter me. You see, he heard about a CPA in CA that was being sued by a former client because he chose to do prepare the F/S different from another CPA. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that in the accounting world and especially here in the US where people are "sue-happy" there will always be that possibility that I could end up being sued. After all, the Big 4 are always in some litigation or another. What I would like to know is how many of you have ever been tangled up in a litigation regarding your employers or even just you. If you would like to reply to my email addy it IS correct.   TIA   Janice   I have been preparing tax returns since 1963, have been a CPA since 1974, and have been teaching accounting and tax subjects for 20 years and have never been sued by anyone for anything related to any of these.  I do all of these things to the best of my ability and so far so good!   Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

My husband has concerns about me going into forensic accounting because he is worried litigation might come against me. I am, however, not going to let his concerns deter me. You see, he heard about a CPA in CA that was being sued by a former client because he chose to do prepare the F/S different from another CPA. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that in the accounting world and especially here in the US where people are "sue-happy" there will always be that possibility that I could end up being sued. After all, the Big 4 are always in some litigation or another. What I would like to know is how many of you have ever been tangled up in a litigation regarding your employers or even just you. If you would like to reply to my email addy it IS correct. TIA Janice

Response:

My husband has concerns about me going into forensic accounting because he is worried litigation might come against me. I am, however, not going to let his concerns deter me. You see, he heard about a CPA in CA that was being sued by a former client because he chose to do prepare the F/S different from another CPA. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that in the accounting world and especially here in the US where people are "sue-happy" there will always be that possibility that I could end up being sued. After all, the Big 4 are always in some litigation or another. What I would like to know is how many of you have ever been tangled up in a litigation regarding your employers or even just you. If you would like to reply to my email addy it IS correct.

Yours truly testified as a witness of the prosecution against the chairman / CEO of his former employer’s company and was on the witness stand for 1.5 hours.  The defendant was convicted on charges of fraud and related white-collar crimes to 4.5 years in prison.  It was not fun for the witness.  Yours truly considers such testimony to form part of professional conduct. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. Key fingerprint: 8994 CFDD 9C60 C978 A488 689F 5DCC EFC4 4D36 580D To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Qaddafi genetic class struggle Semtex Mossad Ft. Bragg AK-47 Uzi KGB CIA

Response:

Question:

Hallo everyone, In composing a Porter’s 5-forces analysis about Air France, I came across the following questions that I did not find an answer to so far.

Question:

Thanks, Carol Ann! — Cheers, John Rearden http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3262h/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Downeast Maine   Pumpkin Bread Ingredients: 1 (15 ounce) can pumpkin puree 4 eggs 1 cup light olive oil 1/2 cup water 20 drops liquid sweetener 2 cups Splenda 1 1/2 cups Vital Wheat Gluten flour 1 cup whey protein powder 1 cup oat flour 2 teaspoons baking soda 1 1/2 teaspoons salt 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon 1 teaspoon ground nutmeg 1/2 teaspoon ground cloves 1/4 teaspoon ground ginger Beat eggs. Add water, oil, liquid sweetener and pumpkin and beat well. Sift together all flours, baking soda, salt and spices in a separate bowl. Add Splenda to pumpkin mixture and mix very well. Pour into greased and floured pans and bake for about 50 minutes in a preheated 350

Question:

What this suggests to me is that the "estimate of 3.97 million HIV-infected people in India" may be far too large … However, there are more that 60 factors that are known to increase the false positive rate (eg flu, pregnancy, malaria, liver disease), and since such factors are present in India, one must assume a  false positive rate greater than 0.1% Assuming a false positive rate of just 0.4%, (which is still a very low rate !!!) would give the impression of about 4 million infections in a population the size of India so if Naco did not allow for false positives, …

Way, way down NACO’s web page there is a table of estimated HIV prevalences, sorted by state and source of data.  In some states the prevalences reported from antenatal clinics are very low — 0.13%, 0.08%, 0.00%.  They appear to be correcting for the false positives. — David Canzi                     If money is the root of all evil, marketing                                 must be the trunk and most of the branches.

Response:

Assuming a false positive rate of just 0.4%, (which is still a very low rate !!!) would give the impression of about 4 million infections in a population the size of India so if Naco did not allow for false positives, or if they used an unrealistically low false positive rate, their estimation of 3.7 million HIV infections for India overall could be somewhere between 1~3+ million too large. I would be interested to know what AIDS organizations do about accounting for false positives.

And I haven’t found the outright statement on either the WHO or UNAIDS sites yet, but it becomes more and more apparent that these numbers are derived from pregnant women at antenatal clinics, who are given a single ELISA test or at best two ELISA tests. A test that in the West is only used to screen out non-HIV positives, because the test is so sensitive. Explicitly not to diagnose whether someone has HIV or not. But hey, the test is cheap, and at least it’s a test (rather than just a "diagnosis"), so… Alex

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Incidentally at the Times of India site, I found a recent article which started off as follows. –QUOTE– Aids cases rising in the state TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ SUNDAY, JULY 28, 2002  1:00:48 AM ] PATNA: The number of full blown cases of Aids has increased to 128 in Bihar, an increase of 25 cases since March. The total number of Aids cases in the country had risen to 36,160 which included 593 new cases detected in June, according to the National Aids Control Organisation (Naco). –END QUOTE– So, if the total number of Aids cases to date is only 36,160, the claim that Naco reported about 17,000 for Aids deaths a year ago, would seem to be reasonable.

The numbers in that article (36,160 and 593) are not rounded.  They were arrived at by counting people one by one.  They represent AIDS patients that the diagnosing doctor knows face-to-face.  These figures therefore understate the actual prevalence of AIDS in India to a degree that depends on how many or how few people can afford good doctors, and blood testing. — David Canzi                     If money is the root of all evil, marketing                                 must be the trunk and most of the branches.

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I was unable to find the estimate of AIDS deaths at NACO’s web site to verify it, but I did find an estimate of 3.97 million HIV-infected people in India — which casts doubt on the claim of only 17,000 AIDS deaths.  (See http://naco.nic.in/vsnaco/indianscene/esthiv.htm)

Thanks for the reference. I looked for myself. I was unable to find the original article at the Times of India web site.  That site appears to be broken.

I could not find it either. But it may have appeared in the print version of the Times rather than the web version and therefore not be available via the web. The sites where google finds this article looks like a Who’s Who of AIDS denialist web sites.  

However it is also available at an Indian health site that generally provides orthodox opinions on HIV. http://www.healthlibrary.com/news/17_23_June/23_India.htm So I do not think AIDS dissidents have fabricated it. Incidentally at the Times of India site, I found a recent article which started off as follows. –QUOTE– Aids cases rising in the state TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ SUNDAY, JULY 28, 2002  1:00:48 AM ] PATNA: The number of full blown cases of Aids has increased to 128 in Bihar, an increase of 25 cases since March. The total number of Aids cases in the country had risen to 36,160 which included 593 new cases detected in June, according to the National Aids Control Organisation (Naco). –END QUOTE– So, if the total number of Aids cases to date is only 36,160, the claim that Naco reported about 17,000 for Aids deaths a year ago, would seem to be reasonable. What this suggests to me is that the "estimate of 3.97 million HIV-infected people in India" may be far too large wrong and  it would be interesting to know if any attempt was made to account for false positive test results when deriving this estimate. For instance if everyone was free of factors that can confuse the tests, then from what I have read I would expect a false positive rate of 0.1%. For India’s population of approx. 1000 million that would give 1 million false positives. However, there are more that 60 factors that are known to increase the false positive rate (eg flu, pregnancy, malaria, liver disease), and since such factors are present in India, one must assume a  false positive rate greater than 0.1% Assuming a false positive rate of just 0.4%, (which is still a very low rate !!!) would give the impression of about 4 million infections in a population the size of India so if Naco did not allow for false positives, or if they used an unrealistically low false positive rate, their estimation of 3.7 million HIV infections for India overall could be somewhere between 1~3+ million too large. I would be interested to know what AIDS organizations do about accounting for false positives. Peter

Response:

The Times of India is read by more people than any other national newspaper in India. Read this front-page story from June 22, 2001 : "A controversy is brewing over the number of AIDS-related deaths in India." Official statistics say that there are 560,000 AIDS orphans, yet there were 17,000 AIDS deaths. India’s AIDS figures don’t add up. http://www.whatisaids.com/timesofindia62201.htm

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The Times of India is read by more people than any other national newspaper in India. Read this front-page story from June 22, 2001 : "A controversy is brewing over the number of AIDS-related deaths in India." Official statistics say that there are 560,000 AIDS orphans, yet there were 17,000 AIDS deaths. India’s AIDS figures don’t add up. http://www.whatisaids.com/timesofindia62201.htm

The article in question reports a disparity between statistics reported by representatives of UNAIDS and NACO (India’s National AIDS Control Organization).  The UNAIDS representative reported an estimate of 560,000 AIDS orphans in India.  NACO’s representative reported NACO’s estimate of 17,000 AIDS deaths in India.  The UNAIDS rep could not explain, when asked, where his figure came from.  The NACO rep wasn’t asked to explain his source. I was unable to find the estimate of AIDS deaths at NACO’s web site to verify it, but I did find an estimate of 3.97 million HIV-infected people in India — which casts doubt on the claim of only 17,000 AIDS deaths.  (See http://naco.nic.in/vsnaco/indianscene/esthiv.htm) I was unable to find the original article at the Times of India web site.  That site appears to be broken. The sites where google finds this article looks like a Who’s Who of AIDS denialist web sites.  And in all the time this article has been available on all those web sites, none of the denialists seem to have noticed the flaws in the reporter’s reasoning when he or she said that, in order for there to be 560,000 AIDS orphans, there would have to be twice that many AIDS deaths.  like you, they believe the article is accurate and authoritative, because it seems to say something they want to hear. Lie la lie, lie la lie-lie lie la lie, lie la lie. — David Canzi                     If money is the root of all evil, marketing                                 must be the trunk and most of the branches.

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Question:

Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on.  So, choose your colleagues wisely,

How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? Chris

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On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time.   There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye.  A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me.   You no doubt have a good education.  Go get another job. —

It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.   I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. Chris

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How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston?

You don’t know what’s going on specifically, but "you" as a collective group of employees and partners didn’t do a whole lot to stop the shredding of documents that may or may not have been crucial in determining the facts. Any one of you could have, and a whole lot of you should have, stepped up to the plate and said STOP THIS. And while a few priests have disgraced the priesthood as well as the Catholic Church, so have a few Andersen CPA’s disgraced Andersen as well as every CPA in the world. Now we all have to wait to see just how muddied the designation has become, and if the stain ever washes off. THANK YOU AA. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston?

A real problem–but one that any Big 5 firm is going to face.  It’s the nature of the beast that you have potential exposure to the actions of people in other offices. You would hope that the internal and quality controls are sufficient to give assurance that such problems aren’t happening undetected for a long period of time.  In fact, professional standards demand The results in Waste Management, Sunbeam, Baptist Foundation of Arizona and Enron suggest that, in fact, those systems weren’t working very well at Andersen. That said, you say you have 3.5 years with Andersen.  If you started with them straight out of school, that means you are in the very early stages of your career.  I would caution you that over your career you are going to experience a lot of ups and downs–and, in fact, while this situation appears terrible today, you are extremely likely to recover from it relatively quickly.   The work Andersen did is still going to be done–just by other firms.  And those firms are going to be hiring accountants, assuming they weren’t terribly overstaffed to start with.  You should be in a good position to go with whatever firm landed the account you just lost.

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It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.

You mean the "Final Four"? I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.

Therein lies the problem.  It should be crossing your mind every day. I know that’s the case in my (and I mean I own it) practice.  Whether it’s a tax issue, accounting, billing, collection, employee issues, client acceptance, retention, etc. the decisions made each day affect your ethics, morality, integrity, etc. – not to mention the bottom line.  And in my practice, my income is based on what’s left over for me after the business bills get paid.  I’ve lost clients (big ones) and/or never obtained a client because I wouldn’t DO what they thought should be done.  And of course that not only hurts the business bottom line, but my personal earnings as well. I am sure that similar (albeit significantly larger in dollars) pressure resides with the partners at AA and the other four firms. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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…. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.

Most likely:  As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.

You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week.  It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job.  They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted".   Thanks DOJ and media.  Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday.  Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris

Response:

I take it you are an Andersen employee or associate.  You seem to be blaming DOJ and the media for Andersen’s screw ups.  So let me see what should be done here. Should everyone just turn a blind eye to this fiasco in which YOUR firm was involved?  Muzzle the media?  And the Department of Justice should give preferential treatment to Andersen and not investigate and prosecute if there were wrong doings or fraud?  It is regrettable that you are losing customers and I understand that you had nothing to do with the fiasco, but your anger is directed at the wrong people.  The DOJ and media are doing their jobs.  Your anger needs to be directed at the top Andersen Brass, they are responsible for your plight, not the media.  By not investigating and reporting on this the DOJ and media would be doing a disservice to all American and some foreigners as some Enron stock was held by foreigners.  So what you are saying is your interests should be protected at the expense of everybody else’s.  I’m sorry, that’s not equitable. As for your customers bailing out on you I do sympathize, if you gave them unparalleled service for many years it seems unfair.  But it’s a free country and you have to understand that some customers are nervous and they don’t want the additional stress of being unsure about their accounting firm.  Business is hard enough without headaches that one doesn’t need or have any control over, so they are acting with prudence and due care.  They are protecting their interests.  If the whole thing really blows right apart why should they be unwitting victims? They really have nothing to do with this, they are not Andersen employees or associates, they are customers.  In business if one of your suppliers is about to go bankrupt or get sued you have to take measures to ensure uninterrupted supplies and continuance of your affairs as smoothly as possible.  You cannot expect anything else, not doing so would be poor business practice. This whole thing is somewhat comparable to the Ford Explorer debacle.  When Firestone tires were flying apart and Explorers were flying head first in ditches a lot of people who were not directly responsible suffered.  There was only 2 line of Firestone tires that were at issue, yet sale of all Firestone tires suffered, even wheelbarrow tires.  People who had never even seen a Ford Explorer were affected.  Employees of Bridgestone Tires, which owns Firestone, lost their jobs even though there was nothing wrong with their products.  And Ford employees who weren’t in anyway even closely working on Explorers lost their jobs, not to mention Ford suppliers, dealers and contractor.  What should have been done then? No congressional investigation and muzzle the media?  Just be thankful you’re not a 75 year old widow who has lost all of her life savings on Enron stock. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week.  It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job.  They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media.  Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday.  Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris

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That concept is really too much for me.  Its like blaming all Germans for No. It’s like blaming the people responsible for Andersen’s policies and decision making for not meeting their responsibilities to their profession, their colleagues, and the users of the financial statements they pretended to audit.

We agree to disagree on that.  Most of the people at Andersen probably didn’t have the remotest clue of what was going.  I will believe that until it is proved otherwise.  They don’t deserve the sticks and stones. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<SNIP I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job.  They have enough to deal with.  Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few. And the point of that is what? People you work with are subject to being screwed over if colleagues they trust do wrong? Tell me, if someone in your organization breaks the law – say your boss, for example – and the company ceases to exist because when the boss is caught and indicted, the business goes under, are you going to blame your boss, who broke the law, or are you going to blame the cops who arrested him?

Actually, I just went through that.  Six or seven allegations were thrown out against the head of my organization and supported by the W Post.  The allegations seem oh so true.  However, ALL of the allegations were disapproven. The issues are now dead.  Had my organization been AA, we would be out of business based on the unscrouplous tactics of a few– those making the allegations.   ///I just can’t write what needs to be written above and had to remove about 5 lines.  //// I know what you are trying to say.  My issue was that AA people are not all equally guilty.  We don’t know the extent that upper level people were involved in the decision making.  We do know the system of quality control was ineffective if not totally broken.  Indict those who broke the law, not those who were not connected.  I see nothing wrong with Cris questioning the tactics of the "cops."  The fact is that cops/investigators have a mission and they don’t mind hurting the innocent a bit a long the way to get the guilty.  Car chases, exposed whistle blowers, and others are obvious examples.  Depending on the damage done, I would even support a bit of that to get the guilty….I’m not sure where the line is and I’m glad I don’t get involved in that area. The fact that he chose to attack that aspect doesn’t preclude that he would attack the actual perpetrators at AA.  He has been silent on that probably because everyone has already discussed that and he probably agrees. Your example doesn’t fit well because they aren’t attacking the boss alone, they are going after the firm, which is thousands of people, some of which could be your friends and relativess and who are perfectly innocent of any wrong doing.  He has every right to be ticked at the methodology no matter how much you agree with it. Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm.  To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues. Mostly, I’m painting the ones who were directly involved in the wrong doing and the ones who insist upon defending the indefensible.

That’s find…but the tone in this thread has been recently and continues to be that all of AA had to know what went on and are therefore guilty of at least inaction.  I don’t buy that and must challenge that position. By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general.

In that, we agree.  I will tell you this— if the big 5 are tainted, they run rings around the small firms in terms of ethics.  I think in a year or two, this aspect will become clear.  The free ride is over and the AA debacle has made it easier to challenge the work of all CPAs. Respectfully, Tippy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards, Bill

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By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general.

There’s truly the frightful part. If there are substantial problems with the other guys, there are two possibilities:  - Perhaps the "blood-letting" at AA may be a sufficient scare to     draw others back from the brink of further disaster;  - Alternatively, perhaps there’s worse to come, including problems     of devaluation of all sorts of companies out there. The latter is what people should be quite fearful of, and both possibilities represent good political reason for the DOJ to be as harsh as possible with AA. That’s small comfort for those unjustly affected by the harshness; it wouldn’t be the first time, and it won’t be the last.  Ronald Reagan fired about 12000 air traffic controllers, which was rather harsh, and bites people to this day.  At that time, the issue was "defense of the airways;" today, it’s "defense of stock valuations." And of course, in _this_ situation, things are quite conflated because there are _two_ plausible causes for the bleeding away of AA clients:  a) Really, really, really bad publicity about Enron, coming in the     wake of some other "bad publicity" scenarios, and  b) DOJ becoming an adversary. Blaming all the problems on the DOJ indictment represents a very _convenient_ apologia; I suppose we’ll never know for sure if things would have come to a similar "head" without that indictment. — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/spiritual.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #200. "During times of peace, my Legions of Terror will  not be permitted to  lie around drinking  mead and eating roast boar. Instead they will be  required to obey my dietician and my aerobics instructor." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/

Response:

That concept is really too much for me.  Its like blaming all Germans for

No. It’s like blaming the people responsible for Andersen’s policies and decision making for not meeting their responsibilities to their profession, their colleagues, and the users of the financial statements they pretended to audit. <<SNIP I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job.  They have enough to deal with.  Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few.

And the point of that is what? People you work with are subject to being screwed over if colleagues they trust do wrong? Tell me, if someone in your organization breaks the law – say your boss, for example – and the company ceases to exist because when the boss is caught and indicted, the business goes under, are you going to blame your boss, who broke the law, or are you going to blame the cops who arrested him? Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm.  To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues.

Mostly, I’m painting the ones who were directly involved in the wrong doing and the ones who insist upon defending the indefensible. By the way, I very much fear the Other 4, as organizations, are not all that different from Andersen, as an organization. If my fears are realized, you haven’t begun to see the negative impact on the stock market in particular and the economy in general. Regards, Bill

Response:

I’d love to see your reactions if your career was dramatically affecting by the unfortunate conduct of a few, especially if you didn’t even work in the audit practice, like at least 60% of the people employed by Andersen.

I’d be pissed as hell and I’d be blaming the ones who committed the "unfortunate conduct," not the cops for bringing them to justice. By the way, I had a job in a Big 8 firm – back in the days when at least in that office, there was a note of pride in the voices of the professional staff when commenting that the partner in charge was a man of _integrity_.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely:  As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy.

It is entirely plausible that in 3 1/2 years, the individual in question hasn’t been near enough to _serious_ involvement with marketing or practice management to see much in the way of "scary issues." Contrary to Hollywood scenarios as in _The Rainmaker_, where just-out-of-school lawyers immediately get thrown into complex negotiations, with their practical education coming from senior lawyers who run strip clubs on the side and outrun FBI investigations, in the _real world,_ it takes a few years for those in the big firms to get around to dealing with sensitive situations. Someone who may have barely been a CPA for a year or maybe two isn’t likely to be out pounding the pavement in the "business development" area which _is_ the place where thare are likely to be hefty ethical challenges. Indeed, a junior auditor working in Utah is liable to be too busy writing up timesheets and searching for billable time to have the time to look for terribly many polygamists.  :-) — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/languages.html "The classic  Common Lisp defmacro is  like a cook’s knife; an elegant idea which seems dangerous, but which experts use with confidence." — Paul Graham, _On Lisp_

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With incredible insight like that it’s really surprising that you’re unemployed with your MBA & CPA credentials.  Did you learn your know it all sarcasm in your graduate program. Let alone all the bitter holier than thou sole proprietors just waiting to pile on the Big 5 firms because you couldn’t get hired out of college. I know this isn’t the case with all of the respondents in this newsgroup, but it sure is the general tone of the piling on uninformed responses that I’ve read. I’d love to see your reactions if your career was dramatically affecting by the unfortunate conduct of a few, especially if you didn’t even work in the audit practice, like at least 60% of the people employed by Andersen. Take a look in the mirror before you slam the concerns of the mostly excellent professionals working at Andersen.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely:  As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s

statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Tippy w/ unpopular views

Without a difference of opinion there could be no discussion. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms. Most likely:  As ye sow so shall ye reap. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind. You might want to re – phrase that, or maybe not.

I suspect he meant that he never detected an issue of integrity, ethics, or independence or that such matters never surfaced as an issue to him.  As similarly stated by Paul (I think), auditors should always have an awareness of such matters.  As authority increases, so does the need to keep an awareness of these matters.  But even a junior auditor can compromise work by applying to work for the client without recusing himself from work on that client. I am reminded of hard hitting investigative reporter Jack Anderson’s

statement of all the years he was in Utah he had never see or was made aware of an instance of polygamy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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That concept is really too much for me.  Its like blaming all Germans for the holocaust when many left the country and many helped the Jews escape. Yes, people still believe that *all* Germans were responsible for the holocaust.  Or blaming all of any group.  The idea that people throughout the entire organization (AA) at all levels had at least an inkling belies realistic behavior. I have people working on different jobs…many are so dedicated that they don’t have time to fool with office gossip or deal with the facts on another job.  They have enough to deal with.  Yes, I have been in organizations where the slightest wrong doing or perception of wrong doing floated around to a select few. Andersen as a firm may deserve to go down the tubes…but I intuitively believe that the AA people are as professional, ethical, and moral as the members of any other comparable sized CPA firm.  To paint them all with the broad brush of association should be left to the media and the public, not their professional colleagues. Tippy w/ unpopular views – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? You don’t know what’s going on specifically, but "you" as a collective group of employees and partners didn’t do a whole lot to stop the shredding of documents that may or may not have been crucial in determining the facts. Any one of you could have, and a whole lot of you should have, stepped up to the plate and said STOP THIS. And while a few priests have disgraced the priesthood as well as the Catholic Church, so have a few Andersen CPA’s disgraced Andersen as well as every CPA in the world. Now we all have to wait to see just how muddied the designation has become, and if the stain ever washes off. THANK YOU AA. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on.  So, choose your colleagues wisely, How the hell are people on the west coast or new england or the southeast going to have any idea what is going on with an audit client in Houston? Chris

There are some very smart people in this group…but empathy is not always easy when the whole profession has been tainted by your colleagues.   I am not in agreement with most of the group–respectfully, I see an attitude of "holier than thou" that will diminish over time.  (Some posters are strictly factual or speculative rather than emotional.) For the most part, few are challenging the prevailing view here.  When there is near consensus, you won’t see much sympathy for those I believe were unfairly tainted. OTOH, why would anyone want their financial statements examined by Andersen when its reputation has been so tainted.  I suspect that potential investors would worry about why a tainted CPA firm is continuing to opine on the corporation…are shenanigans going on between AA and the firm.  Fair? Perhaps. Tippy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time. There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye.  A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me. You no doubt have a good education.  Go get another job. — It’s very apparent to me that you have alot of hostility towards the "big 5" accounting firms.

It is more a mixture of contempt and sorrow.   I once held the "Big 8" in high regard.  No more.  In my quieter moments I grieve for what we have all lost, primarily as a result of the unbridled greed of a few. I have been with Andersen for 3 1/2 years, and I can’t think of an instance where an ethics or integrity concern has even seriously crossed my mind.

Innocence lost.  It happens to most of us sooner or later. You will no doubt get caught up in the next 3 1/2. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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It remains to be seen whether DOJ has a winnable case.  The media rarely gets the facts right, they take the easy road until they find out they are on losing side of an issue and then they turn on the other side like a dog. In the meantime, honorable people get hurt.  But the end justifies the means, right.  As much as I admire most of the intentions of our "crimefighters," they sometimes get it wrong and people are hurt.  More often than not, information is somehow leaked that taints individuals and firms…and the investigations lead nowhere.  Oftentimes, politicians pressure investigators and others in government…the pressure is powerful sometimes.  Years ago, I led a multiagency federal (PCIE) audit that yielded results different than the politician wanted to see.  That didn’t go over well but the testing was good and the results stood. I’m not so sure that the FBI and certain others can withstand the pressure placed on them to yield results beneficial to the desires of the politicians. My point is simply that Andersen apparently was decentralized to point it was not as effective as it was supposed to be.  But, does that mean that those who were effective have to lose their jobs because they are associated with Andersen.  Okay, so be it.  The public has the right to choose.  But why should any CPA be held in any higher esteem than those of Andersen.  For the most part, CPAs went to the same schools, the same ethics, the same friends, etc.  What happened at Andersen has very likely happened in varying degrees at big and small CPA firms throughout this country.  The holier than thou business just doesn’t fly — if you blame all of Andersen then you need to blame everyone.  As we all know, control systems are just as good as the people in the positions— and I suggest to you that Andersen’s people, overall, were just as good. Sorry a bit rambling, okay a lot. Tippy BTW, look at the FBI, the screwed up so badly with Hansen…but who is being held accountable….nobody but Hansen.  They had zip controls over access to classified and sensitive information…according to our media friends.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take it you are an Andersen employee or associate.  You seem to be blaming DOJ and the media for Andersen’s screw ups.  So let me see what should be done here. Should everyone just turn a blind eye to this fiasco in which YOUR firm was involved?  Muzzle the media?  And the Department of Justice should give preferential treatment to Andersen and not investigate and prosecute if there were wrong doings or fraud?  It is regrettable that you are losing customers and I understand that you had nothing to do with the fiasco, but your anger is directed at the wrong people.  The DOJ and media are doing their jobs.  Your anger needs to be directed at the top Andersen Brass, they are responsible for your plight, not the media.  By not investigating and reporting on this the DOJ and media would be doing a disservice to all American and some foreigners as some Enron stock was held by foreigners.  So what you are saying is your interests should be protected at the expense of everybody else’s.  I’m sorry, that’s not equitable. As for your customers bailing out on you I do sympathize, if you gave them unparalleled service for many years it seems unfair.  But it’s a free country and you have to understand that some customers are nervous and they don’t want the additional stress of being unsure about their accounting firm.  Business is hard enough without headaches that one doesn’t need or have any control over, so they are acting with prudence and due care.  They are protecting their interests.  If the whole thing really blows right apart why should they be unwitting victims? They really have nothing to do with this, they are not Andersen employees or associates, they are customers.  In business if one of your suppliers is about to go bankrupt or get sued you have to take measures to ensure uninterrupted supplies and continuance of your affairs as smoothly as possible.  You cannot expect anything else, not doing so would be poor business practice. This whole thing is somewhat comparable to the Ford Explorer debacle. When Firestone tires were flying apart and Explorers were flying head first in ditches a lot of people who were not directly responsible suffered.  There was only 2 line of Firestone tires that were at issue, yet sale of all Firestone tires suffered, even wheelbarrow tires.  People who had never even seen a Ford Explorer were affected.  Employees of Bridgestone Tires, which owns Firestone, lost their jobs even though there was nothing wrong with their products.  And Ford employees who weren’t in anyway even closely working on Explorers lost their jobs, not to mention Ford suppliers, dealers and contractor.  What should have been done then? No congressional investigation and muzzle the media?  Just be thankful you’re not a 75 year old widow who has lost all of her life savings on Enron stock. John The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week.  It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job.  They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media.  Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday.  Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris

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Therein lies the problem.  It should be crossing your mind every day.

Hopefully he meant he has never had to compromise his ethics *AND* that his ethics are not warped to begin with. But, as you note, the real question is whether you’ve ever had to make a decision that took money out of your pocket in order to sustain an ethical position.  My guess is that, with 3 1/2 years experience, he may actually not have faced such a decision.  But it will come–and when you make that decision, it tells a lot about you. As you note, when you have your own practice these types of decisions occur quite often.  And, in many cases, the ethical choice is one that is going to take money directly out of my pocket in the short term.  And, if the problem is never uncovered (and in most cases it’s highly unlikely that it will be), the decision takes money out of your pocket over the long term.

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Thanks Jim, and earlier, Ed Zollars.  I emphatically agree. I never cheated.  I paid heavily for the privilege.  Many of us have watched other managers and partners make money cheating. And said nothing, while getting paychecks out of the revenue they made for our firm. Now Chris, don’t tell me in a firm full of auditors, some of the smartest and most experienced auditors on earth, none of the other managers or partners knew what was going on.  So, choose your colleagues wisely, Todd Boyle CPA Kirkland WA The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week.  It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job.   Thanks DOJ and media.  Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday.  Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris

[...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personal experience here.  As I’ve mentioned before, I was involved in a decision that lead to the loss of a client that made up nearly 10% of firm revenues for a local firm–and which we knew would lead to the loss of that client when we made the decision.  I know how difficult it is to make decisions in that context–and what temptation exists to find some way to prevent that loss of revenue from occurring.  And that temptation exists for all professional staff on the engagement–from the partner level all the way down to the staffer who is likely going to be laid off if the revenue can’t be replaced.  At the time, the economy in Phoenix was bad enough that it was highly unlikely that revenue replacement would occur AND it was going to be very difficult for any laid off staff to find a new position. In the case in question had we decided to simply do what the client wanted, we would have retained the fees, the partners would have not had to skip being paid for a while and at least one layoff would have been avoided. We decided, however, that we couldn’t live with that decision from a moral or professional standpoint. Been there; done that; numerous times. On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time.   There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye.  A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me.   You no doubt have a good education.  Go get another job.

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Arthur Anderson? The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week.  It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job.  They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media.  Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday.  Guilt by association is a wonderful thing.

"It’s God’s job to sort out what to do with terrorists.    It’s our job to deliver them to God. " I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week.  It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job.  They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media.  Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday.  Guilt by association is a wonderful thing.

Let me be as clear as I can. If people perceive you and your office’s audit opinion as being tainted it is because of the behavior of your associates in Houston and Chicago. That is where you should direct your "thanks," not to DOJ and the media. I’m sorry for your troubles. I’m more sorry for the troubles now being experienced by the financial markets; all auditors’ opinions are now tainted, not just yours. I’m more sorry for the lowered regard in which all CPAs are now held. I put the primary blame for these bad things where it belongs, with Andersen’s decision makers in Houston and Chicago. Good luck to you and the rest of us as well.

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The client I probably spent 25% of my time on left us and went to another firm this week.  It was completely caused by the indictment and had nothing to do with our quality of service or dedication to the job.  They had stuck by us through all of the bad press, but were worried that the public might perceive our opinion as being "tainted". Thanks DOJ and media.  Hopefully, you will be in the same position that we are someday.  Guilt by association is a wonderful thing. Chris

— copy / paste from another thread — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personal experience here.  As I’ve mentioned before, I was involved in a decision that lead to the loss of a client that made up nearly 10% of firm revenues for a local firm–and which we knew would lead to the loss of that client when we made the decision.  I know how difficult it is to make decisions in that context–and what temptation exists to find some way to prevent that loss of revenue from occurring.  And that temptation exists for all professional staff on the engagement–from the partner level all the way down to the staffer who is likely going to be laid off if the revenue can’t be replaced.  At the time, the economy in Phoenix was bad enough that it was highly unlikely that revenue replacement would occur AND it was going to be very difficult for any laid off staff to find a new position. In the case in question had we decided to simply do what the client wanted, we would have retained the fees, the partners would have not had to skip being paid for a while and at least one layoff would have been avoided. We decided, however, that we couldn’t live with that decision from a moral or professional standpoint.

Been there; done that; numerous times. On at least one very notable occasion, the largest one, I’m fairly sure I could have "gotten away with" doing otherwise, and knew it at the time.   There was substantial fraud involved, and I wasn’t willing to turn a blind eye.  A larger, more "prestigious" firm from a nearby city was more than happy to accept a bit of agreed "myopia", no doubt in exchange for a very nice fee. — end copy / paste — The crybaby stuff gets exactly nowhere with me.   You no doubt have a good education.  Go get another job. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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Question:

Suspected Israeli Spies Held by U.S. Wednesday, December 12, 2001 By Carl Cameron http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40679,00.html WASHINGTON  Some 60 Israelis, who federal investigators have said are part of a long-running effort to spy on American government officials, are among the hundreds of foreigners detained since the Sept. 11 terror attacks, Fox News has learned. The Israelis, a handful of whom are described as active Israeli military or intelligence operatives, have been detained on immigration charges or under the new Patriot Anti-Terrorism Law. Federal investigators said some of them failed polygraph questions inquiring about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States. There is no indication the Israelis were involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance and not shared it. A highly placed investigator told Fox News there are "tie-ins," but when asked for details flatly refused to describe them. "Evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified, I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It is classified information," the source said. An Israeli Embassy spokesman offered categorical denials, and said any suggestion of Israelis spying on or in the United States is simply not true. But Fox News has learned that one group of Israelis spotted in North Carolina recently is suspected of keeping an apartment in California to spy on a group of Arabs who the U.S. authorities are investigating for links to terrorism. Numerous classified documents obtained by Fox News indicate that even prior to Sept. 11, as many as 140 other Israelis had been detained or arrested in a secretive and sprawling investigation into suspected espionage by Israelis in the United States. Investigators from numerous government agencies are part of a working group that has been compiling evidence in the case since the mid-1990s. These documents detail hundreds of incidents in cities and towns across the country that investigators say quote "may well be an organized intelligence-gathering activity." Investigators are focusing part of their efforts on Israelis who said they are art students from the University of Jerusalem or Bezalel Academy and repeatedly made contact with U.S. government personnel by saying they wanted to sell cheap art or handiwork. Documents say they "targeted" and penetrated military bases, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Federal Bureau of Investigations, dozens of government facilities and even secret offices and unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. Another part of the investigation has resulted in the detention and arrest of dozens of Israelis working at kiosks in American malls, where they had been selling toys called "Puzzlecar" and "Zoomcopter." Investigators suspected a front. Shortly after the New York Times and Washington Post reported the detentions of Israelis on immigration charges last month, the carts began vanishing. Why would Israelis spy in and on the United States? A General Accounting Office investigation referred to Israel as Country A and said, "According to a U.S. intelligence agency, the government of country A conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the U.S. of any U.S. ally." A Defense Intelligence report said Israel has a "voracious appetite for information." "The Israelis are motivated by strong survival instincts which dictate every facet of their political and economic policies," the DIA report said. "It aggressively collects military and industrial technology and the U.S. is a high priority target. "Israel possesses the resources and technical capability to achieve its collection objectives," the document concludes Two Jewish militants charged in LA bomb plot LOS ANGELES, Dec 12 AFP US authorities today charged two leaders of a Jewish militant group with plotting to blow up a mosque, the offices of a United States congressman and an Arab-American group in Los Angeles, prosecutors said. The plot was thwarted when the chairman of the Jewish Defence League (JDL) Irv Rubin, 56, and another JDL leader Earl Krugel, were arrested in a raid by an anti-terrorism task force after an informant exposed the alleged bomb plot. "We are here to announce the arrest of the two men alleged to be members of the Jewish Defence League who have been charged with conspiring to bomb Arab-American and Muslim targets in southern California," said US attorney John Gordon. The two were allegedly planning to blow up The King Fahd mosque in the Culver City area, the offices of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles and the offices of Arab-American Congressman Darrell Issa, he said. "The bombing plot developed to the point that explosive powder was delivered to Krugel’s house last night. At the time the powder was delivered Krugel had in his house the remaining components needed to make the bomb," Gordon said. Bombmaking equipment was confiscated from the homes of the men in the raids late yesterday, Gordon told a press conference. The militant JDL was founded in 1968 in New York by controversial rabbi Meir Kahane as an armed response to anti-semitism and has lobbied for the punishment of Nazi war criminals and for the release of Jews from the former Soviet Union. The two men were being detained in Los Angeles. See also http://jdl.org/information/chairman/jdl_chairman.html

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But do you have this quoted from a legitimate news organization?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Suspected Israeli Spies Held by U.S. Wednesday, December 12, 2001 By Carl Cameron http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40679,00.html WASHINGTON  Some 60 Israelis, who federal investigators have said are part of a long-running effort to spy on American government officials, are among the hundreds of foreigners detained since the Sept. 11 terror attacks, Fox News has learned. The Israelis, a handful of whom are described as active Israeli military or intelligence operatives, have been detained on immigration charges or under the new Patriot Anti-Terrorism Law. Federal investigators said some of them failed polygraph questions inquiring about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States. There is no indication the Israelis were involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance and not shared it. A highly placed investigator told Fox News there are "tie-ins," but when asked for details flatly refused to describe them. "Evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified, I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It is classified information," the source said. An Israeli Embassy spokesman offered categorical denials, and said any suggestion of Israelis spying on or in the United States is simply not true. But Fox News has learned that one group of Israelis spotted in North Carolina recently is suspected of keeping an apartment in California to spy on a group of Arabs who the U.S. authorities are investigating for links to terrorism. Numerous classified documents obtained by Fox News indicate that even prior to Sept. 11, as many as 140 other Israelis had been detained or arrested in a secretive and sprawling investigation into suspected espionage by Israelis in the United States. Investigators from numerous government agencies are part of a working group that has been compiling evidence in the case since the mid-1990s. These documents detail hundreds of incidents in cities and towns across the country that investigators say quote "may well be an organized intelligence-gathering activity." Investigators are focusing part of their efforts on Israelis who said they are art students from the University of Jerusalem or Bezalel Academy and repeatedly made contact with U.S. government personnel by saying they wanted to sell cheap art or handiwork. Documents say they "targeted" and penetrated military bases, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Federal Bureau of Investigations, dozens of government facilities and even secret offices and unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. Another part of the investigation has resulted in the detention and arrest of dozens of Israelis working at kiosks in American malls, where they had been selling toys called "Puzzlecar" and "Zoomcopter." Investigators suspected a front. Shortly after the New York Times and Washington Post reported the detentions of Israelis on immigration charges last month, the carts began vanishing. Why would Israelis spy in and on the United States? A General Accounting Office investigation referred to Israel as Country A and said, "According to a U.S. intelligence agency, the government of country A conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the U.S. of any U.S. ally." A Defense Intelligence report said Israel has a "voracious appetite for information." "The Israelis are motivated by strong survival instincts which dictate every facet of their political and economic policies," the DIA report said. "It aggressively collects military and industrial technology and the U.S. is a high priority target. "Israel possesses the resources and technical capability to achieve its collection objectives," the document concludes Two Jewish militants charged in LA bomb plot LOS ANGELES, Dec 12 AFP US authorities today charged two leaders of a Jewish militant group with plotting to blow up a mosque, the offices of a United States congressman and an Arab-American group in Los Angeles, prosecutors said. The plot was thwarted when the chairman of the Jewish Defence League (JDL) Irv Rubin, 56, and another JDL leader Earl Krugel, were arrested in a raid by an anti-terrorism task force after an informant exposed the alleged bomb plot. "We are here to announce the arrest of the two men alleged to be members of the Jewish Defence League who have been charged with conspiring to bomb Arab-American and Muslim targets in southern California," said US attorney John Gordon. The two were allegedly planning to blow up The King Fahd mosque in the Culver City area, the offices of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles and the offices of Arab-American Congressman Darrell Issa, he said. "The bombing plot developed to the point that explosive powder was delivered to Krugel’s house last night. At the time the powder was delivered Krugel had in his house the remaining components needed to make the bomb," Gordon said. Bombmaking equipment was confiscated from the homes of the men in the raids late yesterday, Gordon told a press conference. The militant JDL was founded in 1968 in New York by controversial rabbi Meir Kahane as an armed response to anti-semitism and has lobbied for the punishment of Nazi war criminals and for the release of Jews from the former Soviet Union. The two men were being detained in Los Angeles. See also http://jdl.org/information/chairman/jdl_chairman.html

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the JDL bust was on network news two weeks ago. never heard of the other story. — An unjust king asked a devotee what kind of worship is best? He replied: ‘For thee the best is to sleep one half of the day so as not to injure the people for a while.’ I saw a tyrant sleeping half the day. I said: ‘This confusion, if sleep removes it, so much the better; But he whose sleep is better than his wakefulness Is better dead than leading such a bad life.’

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But do you have this quoted from a legitimate news organization?

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the JDL bust was on network news two weeks ago. never heard of the other story.

I saw the story about the Jews having foreknowledge of the WTC event – well it wasn’t really a story – it just zipped across the screen on Fox news – but I never heard another word about it. BAM

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Question:

Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need.

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It depends on which browser you are using.  In Netscape, you click on "view" then "messages" and then "unread".  Then you will only see the post that you haven’t read.  You are deleting them… that doesn’t happen.  You are only viewing the ones you haven’t read. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need.

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With explorer it would be view – current view and then set it to what you would like to view.  Generally you can’t ‘delete’ messages perse as that would make them unavailable to all of us.  Best you can do is keep YOURSELF from having to see all the headers you have already downloaded, possibly read and/or marked at read and only seeing the new ones.  I can’t recall if it was a she or he that posted the original but if they will email me, Laura the former user support person will help!   (they loved me in accounting..lol)  And i’m a nice helper.  Only killed one user that I know of!!! Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

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Just a clarification on this advice – You have to both mark them read, and set your newsreader to show only unread messages.  I believe you are using outlook express as your newsreader, to do that there you go into view, then current view, then click on hide read messages so a black dot is to the left of it, and only the unread messages will be displayed. If you don’t want to be bothered marking them all read and you are using outlook express (your message indicates you are in the headers, but that could be wrong) you can set it so they are all marked read every time you exit the newsgroup.  That is done in Tools/Options/Read, and in the News section check the box that says Mark all messages read when exiting the newsgroup. That doesn’t delete the messages, just doesn’t show the headers on your screen.  If you are use to going in and out and reading past messages later, you probably don’t want to set them to be marked as read when you exit, you won’t be able to find them again once you leave the newsgroup without a bit of fussing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

Response:

In Outlook Express, right click on the newsgroup, left click on properties, left click the local file tab, then left click the delete button. This will get rid of headers and message bodies, and contrary to what someone else said this does not remove the messages for anyone else. As you can see on the local tab you can also reset the newsgroup, and get all the headers back that are stored on your ISP’s server. — Marvin & Sue web site:  http://marvinwc.homestead.com

Response:

right – with one note on marking them all read automatically when you exit the news group – I was doing that for a while but found out I was basically a ‘news spazz’ moving from news to mail, back to news and then finding all my messages that I had not read yet, marked read!!  If you read like that, don’t set it to automatically mark all messages as read and instead manually mark them as read (edit-view-markall read) when you are done reading.. Laura

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a clarification on this advice – You have to both mark them read, and set your newsreader to show only unread messages.  I believe you are using outlook express as your newsreader, to do that there you go into view, then current view, then click on hide read messages so a black dot is to the left of it, and only the unread messages will be displayed. If you don’t want to be bothered marking them all read and you are using outlook express (your message indicates you are in the headers, but that could be wrong) you can set it so they are all marked read every time you exit the newsgroup.  That is done in Tools/Options/Read, and in the News section check the box that says Mark all messages read when exiting the newsgroup. That doesn’t delete the messages, just doesn’t show the headers on your screen.  If you are use to going in and out and reading past messages later, you probably don’t want to set them to be marked as read when you exit, you won’t be able to find them again once you leave the newsgroup without a bit of fussing. I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

Response:

Thanks Mike, Your instructions were very helpful. Nice and clear! Jean

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a clarification on this advice – You have to both mark them read, and set your newsreader to show only unread messages.  I believe you are using outlook express as your newsreader, to do that there you go into view, then current view, then click on hide read messages so a black dot is to the left of it, and only the unread messages will be displayed. If you don’t want to be bothered marking them all read and you are using outlook express (your message indicates you are in the headers, but that could be wrong) you can set it so they are all marked read every time you exit the newsgroup.  That is done in Tools/Options/Read, and in the News section check the box that says Mark all messages read when exiting the newsgroup. That doesn’t delete the messages, just doesn’t show the headers on your screen.  If you are use to going in and out and reading past messages later, you probably don’t want to set them to be marked as read when you exit, you won’t be able to find them again once you leave the newsgroup without a bit of fussing. I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

Response:

Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need.

Response:

It depends on which browser you are using.  In Netscape, you click on "view" then "messages" and then "unread".  Then you will only see the post that you haven’t read.  You are deleting them… that doesn’t happen.  You are only viewing the ones you haven’t read. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need.

Response:

With explorer it would be view – current view and then set it to what you would like to view.  Generally you can’t ‘delete’ messages perse as that would make them unavailable to all of us.  Best you can do is keep YOURSELF from having to see all the headers you have already downloaded, possibly read and/or marked at read and only seeing the new ones.  I can’t recall if it was a she or he that posted the original but if they will email me, Laura the former user support person will help!   (they loved me in accounting..lol)  And i’m a nice helper.  Only killed one user that I know of!!! Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

Response:

Just a clarification on this advice – You have to both mark them read, and set your newsreader to show only unread messages.  I believe you are using outlook express as your newsreader, to do that there you go into view, then current view, then click on hide read messages so a black dot is to the left of it, and only the unread messages will be displayed. If you don’t want to be bothered marking them all read and you are using outlook express (your message indicates you are in the headers, but that could be wrong) you can set it so they are all marked read every time you exit the newsgroup.  That is done in Tools/Options/Read, and in the News section check the box that says Mark all messages read when exiting the newsgroup. That doesn’t delete the messages, just doesn’t show the headers on your screen.  If you are use to going in and out and reading past messages later, you probably don’t want to set them to be marked as read when you exit, you won’t be able to find them again once you leave the newsgroup without a bit of fussing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

Response:

In Outlook Express, right click on the newsgroup, left click on properties, left click the local file tab, then left click the delete button. This will get rid of headers and message bodies, and contrary to what someone else said this does not remove the messages for anyone else. As you can see on the local tab you can also reset the newsgroup, and get all the headers back that are stored on your ISP’s server. — Marvin & Sue web site:  http://marvinwc.homestead.com

Response:

right – with one note on marking them all read automatically when you exit the news group – I was doing that for a while but found out I was basically a ‘news spazz’ moving from news to mail, back to news and then finding all my messages that I had not read yet, marked read!!  If you read like that, don’t set it to automatically mark all messages as read and instead manually mark them as read (edit-view-markall read) when you are done reading.. Laura

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a clarification on this advice – You have to both mark them read, and set your newsreader to show only unread messages.  I believe you are using outlook express as your newsreader, to do that there you go into view, then current view, then click on hide read messages so a black dot is to the left of it, and only the unread messages will be displayed. If you don’t want to be bothered marking them all read and you are using outlook express (your message indicates you are in the headers, but that could be wrong) you can set it so they are all marked read every time you exit the newsgroup.  That is done in Tools/Options/Read, and in the News section check the box that says Mark all messages read when exiting the newsgroup. That doesn’t delete the messages, just doesn’t show the headers on your screen.  If you are use to going in and out and reading past messages later, you probably don’t want to set them to be marked as read when you exit, you won’t be able to find them again once you leave the newsgroup without a bit of fussing. I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

Response:

Thanks Mike, Your instructions were very helpful. Nice and clear! Jean

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a clarification on this advice – You have to both mark them read, and set your newsreader to show only unread messages.  I believe you are using outlook express as your newsreader, to do that there you go into view, then current view, then click on hide read messages so a black dot is to the left of it, and only the unread messages will be displayed. If you don’t want to be bothered marking them all read and you are using outlook express (your message indicates you are in the headers, but that could be wrong) you can set it so they are all marked read every time you exit the newsgroup.  That is done in Tools/Options/Read, and in the News section check the box that says Mark all messages read when exiting the newsgroup. That doesn’t delete the messages, just doesn’t show the headers on your screen.  If you are use to going in and out and reading past messages later, you probably don’t want to set them to be marked as read when you exit, you won’t be able to find them again once you leave the newsgroup without a bit of fussing. I was not able to find your earlier inquiries. The answer to your question depends on your operating system and newsreader. The general answer would be to "mark them read" but I can’t be more specific without knowing the program you are using. The answer will have to come from someone familiar with your newsreader. Thanks to all who replied to my inquiries.  How do you delete messages once you have finished with them?  I have thousands of postings I don’t need. — Dennis M. Marks http://www.dcs-chico.com/~denmarks

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Air Time; Accountant baiting, an excellent sport for the 21st century! Your troll caught quite a number of fish.  What are you going to do with them now? I’ve never tried to clean one. Are they edible?? Jim Depends if the chef has done a quiche-flaw analyis. A quiche-flaw analysis does add levity to the loaf. If Air Time was baiting us, he / she certainly got a response.  Now would be the time to do something with it. Jim Hudspeth – Fish of undetermined size & species. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

There’s obviously not a lot of creativity there.  If there was, he would have completed his paper.  If he were the creative sort, he would have reeled us all in by now. – - – SHARE WHAT YOU KNOW.  WASTE OTHER PEOPLE’S TIME IF YOU DON’T – - – Who’s trolling who? — Mondo [aka Bwana] Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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(snip) Who’s trolling who? — Mondo [aka Bwana] Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Who’s trolling WHOM? 8<;-) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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You should write your own paper and take an ethics cource while you are at it! No wonder they want to make ethics a mandatory cource in college! Curlyqzs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Is this smiley a girl with a large bow in her hair or a guy with a propeller hat? 8<;-)

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Air Time; Accountant baiting, an excellent sport for the 21st century! Your troll caught quite a number of fish.  What are you going to do with them now? I’ve never tried to clean one.

Are they edible?? Jim Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Both you and Air Time need to get a life and leave us all alone. All that is needed for evil fo prevail is for good men to do nothing. – (Plagiarized from some dead smart guy).

Good comment! Jim Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Don’t you all recognize a good troll when you see one

Everyone know accountants have no sense of humor. Besides, I thought troll was one of those politically incorrect terms we didn’t use any more. Jim Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Air Time; Accountant baiting, an excellent sport for the 21st century! Your troll caught quite a number of fish.  What are you going to do with them now? I’ve never tried to clean one. Are they edible?? Jim

Depends if the chef has done a quiche-flaw analyis. 8<;-) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Air Time; Accountant baiting, an excellent sport for the 21st century! Your troll caught quite a number of fish.  What are you going to do with them now? I’ve never tried to clean one. Are they edible?? Jim Depends if the chef has done a quiche-flaw analyis.

A quiche-flaw analysis does add levity to the loaf. If Air Time was baiting us, he / she certainly got a response.  Now would be the time to do something with it. Jim Hudspeth – Fish of undetermined size & species. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Don’t you all recognize a good troll when you see one Everyone know accountants have no sense of humor. Besides, I thought troll was one of those politically incorrect terms we didn’t use any more. Jim

As a verb, it is perfectly correct, unless you are in the midst of animal rights activists.  As a noun, now that’s a different matter. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

– Mondo Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  [.....] Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.

Now that fifteen people have expresssed their moral outrage, I suggest you should produce a paper on Ethics, by going deeply into the wider literature on ethics and morality.  Study Thomas Aquinas, etc.  Bring back to the profession a new infusion of thought, our very wellsprings of ethical inspiration come from the halls of higher education after all. Here are some ethics koans. 1.  Client A, being fully aware of the needs of society and the importance of governance, nevertheless, forms an intent to minimize his taxes, and having several taxable entities of moderate complexity, engages PriceWaterhouse Coopers to create a filing position that saves him $10,000. Client B, having a firm intent to minimize his taxes, and having a small schedule C business, erases his cost of goods sold and changes it, saving $10,000. Which is more unethical, and why? 2.  Partner in CPA firm hires the dumbest people he can find, yet still having CPA certificates.  He confers at length with all of his clients, but gives partial information to his staff, and gives it in a highly disorganized condition, for tax return preparation. A strict regime of time constraints is also imposed on the staff CPAs. When the tax returns are completed the Partner reviewer does not correct most errors in the taxpayer’s favor, but militantly corrects all overtaxation errors. Thus by a combination of staffing selection and time constraints he realizes a harvest of tax savings for benefit of clients.  In turn, he achieves above normal economic returns from the practice. Does the fact that each particular error originated with the staff CPA preparer mitigate the ethical responsibility of the partner in any way? 3.  In 1976, the top marginal tax rate in NY city and state was 15%, and the top Federal tax rate was 70%.  Taxpayer A having real taxable income of $500,000 owed taxes of $350,000. He decided to underreport his income, reducing the tax by $50,000 and paid $300,000. In 1982, after federal and state tax reforms, teh top Federal rate was 35% and the top NY rate was 8%.  Taxpayer B having true taxable income of $500,000, didn’t cheat on his taxes. He paid a total of $250,000. Which was unethical and why. (Hint: What is the guidance from the pope, ayatollahs, other spiritual gurus, on the question of marginal rates? And which elder statesman, in a representative system of government, has ethics so finely calibrated as to provide this numerical constant? ) 4.  Taxpayer A, living in the US, having an income of $100,000 in 1968, and whose government was bombing Cambodia under an executive order issued in secrecy by a single individual he did not vote for, paid taxes of $30,000 to his government even though he believed the actions of the government were morally wrong.   Taxpayer B, under the same circumstances,  went underground, and didn’t file or pay his taxes.   Which was more ethical and why? 5.  CPA #1, living in 1999, noticing that most of his clients are clueless about computers, makes a great living by hiring junior staff to perform meaningless manual labor inputting and cleaning up data entries which his client could have fully automated if he used appropriate software and trained his clerical people. CPA #2, under the same circumstances, told his client to get a life, and install some better software that was better automated, and walked away from the fees revenue. Which was ethical and why? heh heh heh!  Had fun with this again, * Todd F. Boyle CPA           www.gldialtone.com/xml-accounting.htm * International Accounting Services LLC   tboyle at rosehill .net * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

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Don’t you all recognize a good troll when you see one – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  [.....] Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.

Response:

Both you and Air Time need to get a life and leave us all alone.

All that is needed for evil fo prevail is for good men to do nothing. – (Plagiarized from some dead smart guy).

Response:

Air Time; Accountant baiting, an excellent sport for the 21st century! Your troll caught quite a number of fish.  What are you going to do with them now?  I’ve never tried to clean one. 8<;-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

– Stop looking for the easy way out!  What you are asking only serves to dilute the value of what we, in this forum, have worked so hard to acquire.  Both in school and in our professional careers. PO’dAccountant Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Someone once suggested that the day would dawn when persons would not be known by the color of their epidermus but would be known by the content of their character. Perhaps the Internet will bring that day closer.  - Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Is  Air Time or Air Head?  Leave us all alone.  Stay out of Accounting.  You are the kind of guy that is a disgrace to yourself and your peers and we don’t want you.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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And people say we can’t trust lawyers… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I don’t think someone like you deserves to be a college grad.  Just do it yourself.  It doesn’t have to be good, just do a literature review or something.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my major). I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I never received my degree. Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at AZ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Are you saying that you have led your employers to believe you have obtained your degree?  The accounting profession has not only moral and ethical guidelines but there are a number of legal issues as well.  As an accountant you will assume a level of fiduciary responsibilities in almost every job. I personally would not want to hire someone that I could not trust in those positions, or any position for that matter! You also implied that by submitting a paper you can actually have your degree without any additional course work.  If that is the case then whether you buy it or do it you accomplish the same objective.  My suggestion is that you complete a paper on the moral, ethical and fiduciary responsibilities of the accounting profession.  The AICPA and the IMA have guidelines you can use and you already have a mini-survey going online here. Hey you may even learn something!! Don   Regards,   Donald A Haney, MBA   Emergency Care Specialists, PC   "Learning occurs in the mind, independent of time and place." – Plato   I don’t think someone like you deserves to be a college grad.  Just do it   yourself.  It doesn’t have to be good, just do a literature review or   something.   I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I   needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was my   major).     I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up going   into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I am   concerned that they will look into my background and discover that I   never received my degree.     Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are   willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and   would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email me at     AZ         Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My suggestion  is that you complete a paper on the moral, ethical and fiduciary responsibilities of the accounting profession.  The AICPA and the IMA have guidelines you can use and you already have a mini-survey going online here. Hey you may even learn something!! Don

I would like to ditto this advice.  If  Air Time follows it, he / she will in fact learn something. Meanwhile, the rest of you folks, take a hard look.  This is what corruption looks like on the front end.  This is the source.  This is where moral, economic and social collapse comes from. Also, for those of you who have the stomach for it, compare the AICPA guidelines to how it conducts its own affairs. Jim Hudspeth, CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college   I   needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  (Accounting was   my   major).   I never bothered to do it, and it didnt matter since I ended up   going   into computer programming.  However, now I am changing jobs, and I   am   concerned that they will look into my background and discover that   I   never received my degree.   Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they   are   willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this   and   would like to take care of this as soon as possible.  Please email   me at   AZ

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Both you and Air Time need to get a life and leave us all alone.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  [.....] Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible. Now that fifteen people have expresssed their moral outrage, I suggest you should produce a paper on Ethics, by going deeply into the wider literature on ethics and morality.  Study Thomas Aquinas, etc.  Bring back to the profession a new infusion of thought, our very wellsprings of ethical inspiration come from the halls of higher education after all. Here are some ethics koans. 1.  Client A, being fully aware of the needs of society and the importance of governance, nevertheless, forms an intent to minimize his taxes, and having several taxable entities of moderate complexity, engages PriceWaterhouse Coopers to create a filing position that saves him $10,000. Client B, having a firm intent to minimize his taxes, and having a small schedule C business, erases his cost of goods sold and changes it, saving $10,000. Which is more unethical, and why? 2.  Partner in CPA firm hires the dumbest people he can find, yet still having CPA certificates.  He confers at length with all of his clients, but gives partial information to his staff, and gives it in a highly disorganized condition, for tax return preparation. A strict regime of time constraints is also imposed on the staff CPAs. When the tax returns are completed the Partner reviewer does not correct most errors in the taxpayer’s favor, but militantly corrects all overtaxation errors. Thus by a combination of staffing selection and time constraints he realizes a harvest of tax savings for benefit of clients.  In turn, he achieves above normal economic returns from the practice. Does the fact that each particular error originated with the staff CPA preparer mitigate the ethical responsibility of the partner in any way? 3.  In 1976, the top marginal tax rate in NY city and state was 15%, and the top Federal tax rate was 70%.  Taxpayer A having real taxable income of $500,000 owed taxes of $350,000. He decided to underreport his income, reducing the tax by $50,000 and paid $300,000. In 1982, after federal and state tax reforms, teh top Federal rate was 35% and the top NY rate was 8%.  Taxpayer B having true taxable income of $500,000, didn’t cheat on his taxes. He paid a total of $250,000. Which was unethical and why. (Hint: What is the guidance from the pope, ayatollahs, other spiritual gurus, on the question of marginal rates? And which elder statesman, in a representative system of government, has ethics so finely calibrated as to provide this numerical constant? ) 4.  Taxpayer A, living in the US, having an income of $100,000 in 1968, and whose government was bombing Cambodia under an executive order issued in secrecy by a single individual he did not vote for, paid taxes of $30,000 to his government even though he believed the actions of the government were morally wrong. Taxpayer B, under the same circumstances,  went underground, and didn’t file or pay his taxes. Which was more ethical and why? 5.  CPA #1, living in 1999, noticing that most of his clients are clueless about computers, makes a great living by hiring junior staff to perform meaningless manual labor inputting and cleaning up data entries which his client could have fully automated if he used appropriate software and trained his clerical people. CPA #2, under the same circumstances, told his client to get a life, and install some better software that was better automated, and walked away from the fees revenue. Which was ethical and why? heh heh heh!  Had fun with this again, * Todd F. Boyle CPA           www.gldialtone.com/xml-accounting.htm * International Accounting Services LLC   tboyle at rosehill .net * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107

Response:

Did you finish the ethics coursework — or sleep through? Ed Gray, CPA – Dallas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a serious problem. when I finished my coursework at college I needed to hand in a 25 page paper on accounting.  [.....] Does anyone have a 25 page paper on any accounting topic that they are willing to either give or sell to me. I am very worried about this and would like to take care of this as soon as possible. Now that fifteen people have expresssed their moral outrage, I suggest you should produce a paper on Ethics, by going deeply into the wider literature on ethics and morality.  Study Thomas Aquinas, etc.  Bring back to the profession a new infusion of thought, our very wellsprings of ethical inspiration come from the halls of higher education after all. Here are some ethics koans. 1.  Client A, being fully aware of the needs of society and the importance of governance, nevertheless, forms an intent to minimize his taxes, and having several taxable entities of moderate complexity, engages PriceWaterhouse Coopers to create a filing position that saves him $10,000. Client B, having a firm intent to minimize his taxes, and having a small schedule C business, erases his cost of goods sold and changes it, saving $10,000. Which is more unethical, and why?

Tax avoidance / tax evasion. The first is legal, the latter is not. Based on the facts presented, assuming PWC did not materially "stretch" the law, I would conclude that the Client A situation was also ethical and the Client B situation was not. We do need to keep in mind that while law and ethics interact, they are not the same thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2.  Partner in CPA firm hires the dumbest people he can find, yet still having CPA certificates.  He confers at length with all of his clients, but gives partial information to his staff, and gives it in a highly disorganized condition, for tax return preparation. A strict regime of time constraints is also imposed on the staff CPAs. When the tax returns are completed the Partner reviewer does not correct most errors in the taxpayer’s favor, but militantly corrects all overtaxation errors. Thus by a combination of staffing selection and time constraints he realizes a harvest of tax savings for benefit of clients.  In turn, he achieves above normal economic returns from the practice. Does the fact that each particular error originated with the staff CPA preparer mitigate the ethical responsibility of the partner in any way?

The "politically correct" term here would be "ethically challenged". This fact situation seems to have a ring of reality to it.  Might this be a real situation? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 3.  In 1976, the top marginal tax rate in NY city and state was 15%, and the top Federal tax rate was 70%.  Taxpayer A having real taxable income of $500,000 owed taxes of $350,000. He decided to underreport his income, reducing the tax by $50,000 and paid $300,000. In 1982, after federal and state tax reforms, teh top Federal rate was 35% and the top NY rate was 8%.  Taxpayer B having true taxable income of $500,000, didn’t cheat on his taxes. He paid a total of $250,000. Which was unethical and why. (Hint: What is the guidance from the pope, ayatollahs, other spiritual gurus, on the question of marginal rates? And which elder statesman, in a representative system of government, has ethics so finely calibrated as to provide this numerical constant? )

There is no numerical constant.  Facts and circumstances change.  Needs change.  Tax rates must also change. 4.  Taxpayer A, living in the US, having an income of $100,000 in 1968, and whose government was bombing Cambodia under an executive order issued in secrecy by a single individual he did not vote for, paid taxes of $30,000 to his government even though he believed the actions of the government were morally wrong. Taxpayer B, under the same circumstances,  went underground, and didn’t file or pay his taxes. Which was more ethical and why?

Civil disobedience; jury nullification; tax protests (as in Boston Tea Party). How you stand on these depends on where you sit.  If you win, you a often a hero.  If you lose – well – you lose. 5.  CPA #1, living in 1999, noticing that most of his clients are clueless about computers, makes a great living by hiring junior staff to perform meaningless manual labor inputting and cleaning up data entries which his client could have fully automated if he used appropriate software and trained his clerical people. CPA #2, under the same circumstances, told his client to get a life, and install some better software that was better automated, and walked away from the fees revenue. Which was ethical and why?

Both are ethical.  One, however, may be a bit more fattening than the other. Jim Hudspeth Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

I just picked this off of the newswire: GOLDEN, Colo., Sept. 30 /PRNewswire/ — The Olympics may have ended in August, but thanks to Coors, Colorado has some new gold to celebrate — a little silver, too.    BIG SNIP End of Article: I guess there’s just no accounting for taste! I just popped open a homebrew and laughed!

And Bud took 1st place. Every year our home brew club has a "Blind blue collar tasting". Every one brings a few bootles of American Swill, the cheaper the better. Bud has come in last each and every year for the past 5 years. Miller high life or rolling rock takes first. Nothing beats a home brew!             :^) Richard

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just picked this off of the newswire: GOLDEN, Colo., Sept. 30 /PRNewswire/ — The Olympics may have ended in August, but thanks to Coors, Colorado has some new gold to celebrate — a little silver, too.    BIG SNIP End of Article: I guess there’s just no accounting for taste! I just popped open a homebrew and laughed! And Bud took 1st place. Every year our home brew club has a "Blind blue collar tasting". Every one brings a few bootles of American Swill, the cheaper the better. Bud has come in last each and every year for the past 5 years.

There’s a big difference between the Bud that was judged for the competition and the Bud you pick up at the store.  It’s called care. The Bud they submitted for competition has been kept under very controlled conditions to keep it at it’s best so it will score well during judging. The Bud you pick up at the store has been shipped in unrefrigerated trucks, left sitting in distributors wharehouses, then placed in bright sunlight at your local store before being moved back into the "cold room" for sale.  So when you pop open a nice cold Bud (lagers are consumed cold), it’s far from it’s peak flavor. The reason mass-produced beers are thought of as "American Swill" is that they spend lots of hard work and money trying to brew the best, most consistant beer they can, and then let some yahoo ruin it all in order to ship out as large a volume of beer as possible.  Micros deal with much smaller volumes, so they care more about how their beer is treated when it leaves the brewery. Nothing beats a home brew!             :^) Richard

Now that, I’ll agree to!  But the big difference between Homebrew and commercial brew is that Homebrew is always treated well. Doc — Just a guy with his own opinions. "I only know everything when you ask the right questions." My use of this E-mail address does NOT constitute permission for anyone to send me advertisements.  Any unsolicited advertisements recieved will be deemed an act of harrassment and reported to the appropriate authorities.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So when you pop open a nice cold Bud (lagers are consumed  
cold), it’s far from it’s peak flavor.  
I’m sure this newsgroup will be bowled over with the news that
lagers are consumed cold.  By the way, it’s "its", not "it’s" peak flavor. That was for the benefit of all the brits and aussies who keep complaining
about Americans drinking their beer ice cold so that it has no taste.  Not
for the benefit of all the readers of the NG, or even the benefit of all
the brits and aussies who read this NG.  Just the ones that complain about
drinking cold beer.
Thank you.  I’ve always confused when its is appropriate and when it’s is
appropriate.  One of many small spelling rules I never got down in school.

You are welcome.  As much as I dislike to see that error, I catch myself trying to make it.  The fingers go where the brain fears to tread.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason mass-produced beers are thought of as "American Swill"
is that they spend lots of hard work and money … blah blah blah  
The reason those beers are thought of as swill is they have    
demonstrated themselves to be swill.  I didn’t log into this
newsgroup today with the aim of being contentious, but I’m sick of these defenses of Budweiser and their ilk.  If those beers were worth a shit, this newsgroup would not exist.  
If they’re such obvious swill, why did they win GABF awards this year? (Which was the point of the whole thread.)  Besides, how often have you
done a side by side comparison of a Bud at the brewery vs one from your
local store?

The answers are:
1. Because categories exist for the sole purpose of awarding them medals, and
2. Never, because I have never had the desire to visit a Bud brewery.  
If I did, I can just imagine the reaction when I walked in with a Bud from a local store and asked to do a "side by side".  I stand by my point.  There is not a great difference between any two glasses of Bud on earth.  It’s still Bud.
And in case you failed to notice, I didn’t defend Budweiser.  I personally
don’t like the stuff.  I’m not fond of lagers in general (with the
exception of bocks).  I was just trying to point out how they could win a
gold at GABF but still deliver consistantly poor flavor to your local
store.

I didn’t so much object to your defending Bud as to the lack of logic in your defense.  Bud in the local store is not bad because it’s spoiled, it’s simply not good beer.
And no matter how good or bad commercial beers are, this NG would be here
as long as there are people with computers and the desire to brew.
Doc

You are correct.  I would have been more accurate to say that this newsgroup, along with homebrewing, brewpubs, micros, etc. is the result of a revolution which was engendered largely by a lack of desire on the part of the "majors" to provide us with good beer.
With that said, I apologize for wasting space in this group with a discussion that is not about the CRAFT of brewing.  And I am out of this thread for good.
"One name is good as another"
Kenneth

Response:

So when you pop open a nice cold Bud (lagers are consumed   cold), it’s far from it’s peak flavor.   I’m sure this newsgroup will be bowled over with the news that lagers are consumed cold.  By the way, it’s "its", not "it’s" peak flavor.

That was for the benefit of all the brits and aussies who keep complaining about Americans drinking their beer ice cold so that it has no taste.  Not for the benefit of all the readers of the NG, or even the benefit of all the brits and aussies who read this NG.  Just the ones that complain about drinking cold beer. Thank you.  I’ve always confused when its is appropriate and when it’s is appropriate.  One of many small spelling rules I never got down in school. The reason mass-produced beers are thought of as "American Swill" is that they spend lots of hard work and money … blah blah blah   The reason those beers are thought of as swill is they have     demonstrated themselves to be swill.  I didn’t log into this newsgroup today with the aim of being contentious, but I’m sick of these defenses of Budweiser and their ilk.  If those beers were worth a shit, this newsgroup would not exist.  

If they’re such obvious swill, why did they win GABF awards this year? (Which was the point of the whole thread.)  Besides, how often have you done a side by side comparison of a Bud at the brewery vs one from your local store? And in case you failed to notice, I didn’t defend Budweiser.  I personally don’t like the stuff.  I’m not fond of lagers in general (with the exception of bocks).  I was just trying to point out how they could win a gold at GABF but still deliver consistantly poor flavor to your local store. And no matter how good or bad commercial beers are, this NG would be here as long as there are people with computers and the desire to brew. Doc — Just a guy with his own opinions. "I only know everything when you ask the right questions." My use of this E-mail address does NOT constitute permission for anyone to send me advertisements.  Any unsolicited advertisements recieved will be deemed an act of harrassment and reported to the appropriate authorities.

Response:

There’s a big difference between the Bud that was judged for the competition and the Bud you pick up at the store.  It’s called care.  

There’s not  a "big" difference between any two glasses of Bud in the world, unless someone has relieved himself in one of them, and even then the difference may go unnoticed.  In any case, if I can’t drink the same beer that "won" the competition, why should I care if it won or lost?  What does it tell you that Bud spends its "care" on someone other than you, the guy going to the store to buy their beer? So when you pop open a nice cold Bud (lagers are consumed   cold), it’s far from it’s peak flavor.  

I’m sure this newsgroup will be bowled over with the news that lagers are consumed cold.  By the way, it’s "its", not "it’s" peak flavor. The reason mass-produced beers are thought of as "American Swill" is that they spend lots of hard work and money … blah blah blah  

The reason those beers are thought of as swill is they have     demonstrated themselves to be swill.  I didn’t log into this newsgroup today with the aim of being contentious, but I’m sick of these defenses of Budweiser and their ilk.  If those beers were worth a shit, this newsgroup would not exist.   "One name is good as another"   Kenneth

Response:

Hey gang, don[‘t forget that the like of AB, Miller and Coors make a H— of a lot more beer that we do and they sell it at a profit.  Who is to say that it is "swill" unless you also say who’s judgement says so. I homebrew and drink craft brews because, in my personal opinion, my products and craft brewed products are "better" than Bud, Miller or Coors. . . to my taste. It does not make sense to me that the big boys "don’t care."  They have a lot more at stake than any of us and I am sure they take every precaution to make their product meet the wants and expectations of their customers. . . who, incidentally outnumber all of us by a significant multiplied. Let’s just say we are  the "elite" among brew officiandos. We appreciate the fine points that are missed by the masses. 73, JET

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just picked this off of the newswire: GOLDEN, Colo., Sept. 30 /PRNewswire/ — The Olympics may have ended in August, but thanks to Coors, Colorado has some new gold to celebrate — a little silver, too.     Coors Brewing Company won five medals — one gold and four silvers — at the 1996 Great American Beer Festival, the nation’s oldest and most prestigious beer festival, held Sept. 26-28 in Denver.     The Coors victory platform was highlighted by Original Coors, which pulled down a Gold Medal in the American Premium Lager category.  The medal tops off a huge year for the Original Coors brand, which was relaunched in February.  Part of the Original Coors relaunch was a commitment to take brand quality and consistency to a higher level, which included a return to a 100 percent rice formula.     "We’re extremely proud of the Gold Medal," said Joe Wagner, Original Coors brand manager.  "123 years of heritage — along with High Country Barley, Rocky Mountain water, premium hops and rice — does indeed taste great."

"…premium hops and rice…""???!!!  I guess there’s no accounting for taste.  Sigh… — Phil

Response:

: I just picked this off of the newswire: :     — And Blue Moon(TM) Honey Blonde, brewed by Blue Moon Brewing : Company, a Coors operating unit that produces a line of distinctive ales, : nabbed a Silver Medal in the Belgian Style Ales category. Well, I was guessing that Blue Moon was Coors based on the geography, though they certainly do a good job of hiding the fact.  Actually their Belgian White isn’t bad, though I like Celis better.  It is more strongly spiced than Celis, a bit overpowering unless you are eating something with it.  Oddly they don’t use twistoffs, which is what threw me.  I figured that if it *was* Coors they’d have used the same bottling line.  Tricky, tricky, tricky…  :-) –arne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I just picked this off of the newswire: :     — And Blue Moon(TM) Honey Blonde, brewed by Blue Moon Brewing : Company, a Coors operating unit that produces a line of distinctive ales, : nabbed a Silver Medal in the Belgian Style Ales category. Well, I was guessing that Blue Moon was Coors based on the geography, though they certainly do a good job of hiding the fact.  Actually their Belgian White isn’t bad, though I like Celis better.  It is more strongly spiced than Celis, a bit overpowering unless you are eating something with it.  Oddly they don’t use twistoffs, which is what threw me.  I figured that if it *was* Coors they’d have used the same bottling line.  Tricky, tricky, tricky…  :-) –arne

I believe the Blue Moon line started with the ‘Sandlot’ microbrewery within the Rounders restaurant located in Coors Field, home of those Colorado Rockies.  This microbrewery has some credibility and is very popular with the baseball nuts around here, a long homestand severely taxes the brewery’s capacity. The beer was better this season than last, IMHO, though only the red and the (american) wheat were usually available in the majority of the ballpark.  The stout and ESB were only found in the restaurant when I was there. As I recall, the brewer previously worked in a brewpub in Crested Butte, CO. The microbrewery is owned by Coors and Coors did, I believe, design the original recipes (the restaurant is a separate entity because Coors can’t own brewpubs and breweries, or some such legal chicanery).  The Blue Moon export version of these beers is, I also believe, brewed in this microbrewery (in the off season?) for the Colorado market and contract brewed elsewhere in the US for the rest of you.  I’ve never seen the Belgian White at the ballpark. My memories of the true facts may be dulled by C2H5OH. As a person of the British persuasion, I guess I am used to large brewers brewing, or attempting to brew, decent beer. This was not always the case in Britain, megaswill (keg ale and bad lager) once dominated and is still widely drunk.   Praise be unto CAMRA. FWIW, my attitude is, as long as the beer is good, who cares who makes it? Mind you, those large breweries can piss one off with a swift dose of the swedish bikini team or somesuch nonsense. Perhaps, one day, Budmilloors wil make nothing but cask conditioned ales and decoction mashed lagers.  Dream on. It still, of course, won’t be as good as a home brew. Hugh ps. When I’m in a bad mood, I report spammers to their sysadmins. —    Dept. of Chemical and Bioresource Engineering Colorado State University Fort Collins CO 80525 USA

Response:

I just picked this off of the newswire: GOLDEN, Colo., Sept. 30 /PRNewswire/ — The Olympics may have ended in August, but thanks to Coors, Colorado has some new gold to celebrate — a little silver, too.     Coors Brewing Company won five medals — one gold and four silvers — at the 1996 Great American Beer Festival, the nation’s oldest and most prestigious beer festival, held Sept. 26-28 in Denver.     The Coors victory platform was highlighted by Original Coors, which pulled down a Gold Medal in the American Premium Lager category.  The medal tops off a huge year for the Original Coors brand, which was relaunched in February.  Part of the Original Coors relaunch was a commitment to take brand quality and consistency to a higher level, which included a return to a 100 percent rice formula.     "We’re extremely proud of the Gold Medal," said Joe Wagner, Original Coors brand manager.  "123 years of heritage — along with High Country Barley, Rocky Mountain water, premium hops and rice — does indeed taste great."      "Coors has always been committed to quality," said Dave Thomas, Coors’ director of Brewing Research and Development.  "Our strong showing at the 1996 Great American Beer Festival is a testament to Coors’ unwavering dedication to top-quality ingredients and an uncompromising brewing process."           In other categories:     — Coors Light(R), "The Silver Bullet," the company’s largest-selling beer, grabbed a Silver Medal in the American Light Lager category.     — Coors Extra Gold(R) garnered a Silver Medal in the American Premium Lager category.     — Killian’s Irish Red(TM), produced by UniBev Ltd., a Coors specialty/import marketing division, took home the Silver Medal in the Amber Lager category.     — And Blue Moon(TM) Honey Blonde, brewed by Blue Moon Brewing Company, a Coors operating unit that produces a line of distinctive ales, nabbed a Silver Medal in the Belgian Style Ales category.     Coors won more medals at the 1996 Great American Beer Festival than any other major U.S. Brewer.     Coors Brewing Company, founded in 1873, is the third-largest brewer in the United States.  Coors uses only the finest ingredients available in an all-natural brewing process to offer consumers a wide range of high-quality malt beverages. End of Article: I guess there’s just no accounting for taste! I just popped open a homebrew and laughed!

Response:

Question:

I just heard through the uu that Steve Jackson, creator of Illuminati (the game), was arrested and all his company’s files taken by FBI. He was apparently working on a game about cyberpunk, and because it realistically treated information warfare (viruses, guerilla info weapons, mass behavior engineering) he was nailed for "national security" reasons.  Anybody know more about this?                   .                         DEATH       .  ..                   The Trilateral Commission doesn’t               .     . .                 secretly run the world.  The Council       .     .        .  .               on Foreign Relations does that.     .  .. .           .   .   .                               – Winston Lord,   .     . .            .    .  ..                       President of the CFR .        .  .           .     . . .      

Response:

I just heard through the uu that Steve Jackson, creator of Illuminati (the game), was arrested and all his company’s files taken by FBI.

Several very complete accounts of this were posted to alt.hackers about a month ago (long before the news media picked up on it, anyway).  I can send you at least one or two of them if you’re really interested.

Response:

Actually he wasn’t arrested. But all of his companies computers, files, backups, hardcopies, etc, etc. were. And it wasn’t the FBI it was the secret service. Seems the bright boys that protect our president were convinced that the roleplaying GAME was a manual that anyone could read, then use this info to access any net and break into any system. They ignored the fact that the rules speak only in general terms (first you get a computer, then you get an ice breaker, then you steal the data). What, you ask, is an icebreaker? Why a program created by an AI specifically to penetrate ice (intrusion countermeasure electronics, also created by an AI. Most of the equipment, techniques are today fictional (and copied almost verbatim from William Gibson’s Neuromancer books). Makes you wonder if they are going to start censoring science fiction next for reasons of "national security". At least they returned the computer equipment after several months (which, BTW pretty much shutdown Steve Jackson games for that time – no billing or accounting was possible). They also returned most of his software, and even some of his files and backups. If you go to any hobby store that carries roleplaying games, you can probably find a copy of the game (called "Cyberpunk"), and it tells much of the story on page 4. But at least I sleep well at night knowing my best interests are being looked out for Jeffery

Response:

I just heard through the uu that Steve Jackson, creator of Illuminati (the game), was arrested and all his company’s files taken by FBI. He was apparently working on a game about cyberpunk, and because it realistically treated information warfare (viruses, guerilla info weapons, mass behavior engineering) he was nailed for "national security" reasons.  Anybody know more about this?

He is connected with the Legion of Doom, a hacker group, which has been indicted on charges of stealing 911 system doc files from AT&T. When they went to search his company records, they found the manual for the cyberpunk game, and thought it looked a little to realistic.

Response: